Doing as they were taught.

At Fabius Maximus commenter J Allen described the pathetic men he observes in the local grocery store:

The other group were men who were following their wives (this group had wedding rings) like attentive children. They were pushing the cart while the wives grabbed the food. One actually asked his wife for permission to get some peanuts while another asked his wife if it would be a good idea to take the stairs instead of the elevator. This group of men sounded slightly homosexual, but that very well could mean nothing.

Based on his description I strongly suspect these are conservative Christian husbands.  This is after all what conservative Christian pastors and other leaders teach.  Go to Family Life and you will be taught that God speaks to husbands through their wives’ vaginas.  Pick up a book by Pastor Doug Wilson and you will be taught that God intends for wives to be House Despots, and that “[a husband] should learn to see himself as a guest. He wipes his feet at the door, he eats what is served to him, and he seeks to conform to the pattern established by her”.   Similarly, the authors of Every Man’s Marriage explain:

What I’m trying to say is that the “master” defines your rights (and remember again that though we refer to your wife as your “master,” it’s our shorthand for the fact that becoming one with her essence is actually your God-given master). Why? Because you’re called to oneness and her essence sets the terms.

Pastor Tim Bayly makes it even simpler, and merely tells husbands to call their wives lord.  All of these examples fit the conservative Christian pattern that I’ve described in previous posts, substituting Chivalry (Courtly Love) for Christianity:

Poets adopted the terminology of feudalism, declaring themselves the vassal of the lady and addressing her as midons (my lord), a sort of code name so that the poet did not have to reveal the lady’s name, but which was flattering by addressing her as his lord.

All of this is quite jarring if you aren’t immersed in modern conservative Christian culture, and therefore aren’t an expert in making excuses for it.  For a picture of what this looks like, here is a video starring Pastor Todd Unzicker and his wife.

Pastor Unzicker appears to no longer be actively preaching at The Summit Church in Raleigh-Durham, but from what I can tell he and his wife are still associated with it.  Summit Church is lead by Pastor J.D. Greear, the President of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC).

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This entry was posted in Ask the boss, Attacking headship, Chivalry, Courtly Love, Denial, Disrespecting Respectability, Every Man's Marriage, Fabius Maximus, FamilyLife, Headship, Pastor Doug Wilson, Pastor Tim Bayly, Southern Baptist Convention, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

59 Responses to Doing as they were taught.

  1. Cindy says:

    Normally I’m right there with you, Dalrock, but this time I’m thinking there might be more confirmation bias than anything else going on here. My husband has always had me do the shopping and meal planning, and I’m the nutrition guru in the house. This means that when he comes shopping with me, he pushes the cart while I run ahead a little way and grab what I need, he asks my opinion about foods he’s interested in, and generally stays out of the way. It’s my work, not his, so I know where I’m going. It’s just faster if he follows at a more leisurely pace while I do the darting in and out of aisles. He also delegates the budget to me because I enjoy it. He sets the priorities, I do the details in both food and money matters. So he does indeed ask my “permission” on the pricey or unnecessary stuff. Of course I wouldn’t blink if he disregarded my opinion on any given thing, since it’s his money, but this is the way we do the shopping. Not sure what you’d expect in a husband-led marriage, if not that he expects his wife to competently perform the tasks she’s been given, including shopping, which most husbands don’t seem inclined to micro-manage.

  2. Dalrock says:

    @Cindy,

    J Allen and Larry Kummer discussed that distinction in the comments section after Allen’s original comment. Allen is describing something different than what you describe.

  3. J. Allen says:

    Cindy,

    I am the one who made this observation on fabius’ website. As I said in the other comment thread this could be an errant observation on my part. But what stood out wasn’t that the woman was doing the shopping (it’s normal since women still do most of the cooking) what stood out was the ATTITUDE of the men who were there.

    Would your husband say “can I get some peanuts?” In a mother-may-I tone of voice? If there are both stairs and elevators at the grocery store would your husband ask you if it was a good idea to take the stairs instead of the elevator? Does he normally ask for your guidance for walking through other public places?

    I ask these questions because this behavior was quite frankly unsettling to me. When I go to the grocery store with my fiancee, if I want a $2 container of peanuts I just put them in the cart. I also don’t ask her if we should take the stairs instead of the elevator, I would simply say “let’s take the stairs” and she follows me.

    I’ll start paying attention to this more, but it appeared to be a child/mother dynamic more than a husband/wife dynamic.

  4. Lexet Blog says:

    Hitting the nail on the head. Oh btw, Wilson popped up with a new lecture series. Titled after a ministry that shares his perspective.

    Something that ties all these people together is (personal connection) and a deviance from traditional reformed doctrines. Whether it’s new perspectives on Paul, or “new Calvinism,” these guys tend to allegorize and spiritualize large passages of scripture.

    Bayly and Wilson are FV statement friendly. Their conclusions are a result of poor theological foundations.

    Most of these types went under the radar for so long because self described calvinists thought it was better to promote the name “Calvinist” than call out errors creeping into the reformed world.

  5. Lexet Blog says:

    I’m going to extend my critique to John Piper. Him and Wilson don’t agree when it comes to political application of their doctrines. However, they are both effeminate in their own way.

    Both of them have similar teachings when it comes to works based righteousness. Indeed, both have held the belief that justification is a life long process.

    So, while both appear to be in direct conflict on the subject of what is masculine, their views are rooted in the same error.

    In the reformed world, there is a war going on over cultural Marxism and intersectionality. People have abandoned looking at NPP and new Calvinist controversies, even though the errors all have overlapping commonalities.

    My overall point: don’t miss the forest for the trees.

    The crisis of masculinity is just one of many battles in a much broader theological war

  6. vfm7916 says:

    Agree on the confirmation bias. Further, the “Disinterested boyfriend” is fucking up. Failing to lead in small examples is just as bad as ceding leadership.

    There’s not enough context or information here to make more than a cursory judgment, so here’s my completely second hand experience:

    I push the cart around Costco because it gets damn heavy, minding the kids is full time for both of us, and my wife does the menu, and who the fuck cares about who puts stuff in the cart? Besides, it’s always a challenge to get out of Costco without things on the list. I still have yet to break under $100, too.

    If you aren’t keeping your Hand in the small things occasionally, the mechanisms that maintain your marriage get out of whack because you don’t pay attention to them, like “Disinterested Boyfriend” bros.

  7. Jake says:

    @lexet blog

    Bunch of nonsense. Calvinists reform blah blah blah.

    Spending time learning these terms is foolishness. You need not discuss anything with them. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, laying a trap, and should be dealt with as such, or fools, regurgitating words in an attempt to sound wise, and aping the act of discussion with them proves you the larger fool.

  8. Joe says:

    I push the cart. I am the nutrition guru. She holds the list. She’s very visual and knows exactly where everything is in the store so she leads the way, then we divide and conquer. We have a list on the fridge and when we use up something we add it to the list. When we go we often divide and conquer. I buy all the meat, and choose the wine. I often fill the cart with ribeye, t-bone and salmon whiles she’s on another aisle looking for stuff on sale like dishwasher soap, trash bags and other household items etc. If I want something, like maybe sardines, I grab a stack and add them to the cart. I like calves liver so I buy that too. She’s never blinked an eye at what I add and I’ve never asked for permission. There are things that she would buy that she doesn’t because I’ve told her that they are unhealthy and she totally trusts me in that area. It’s easy though for us as we don’t eat much in the way of processed foods and make everything from scratch, even our mayo. I’m also the supplement researcher and buyer. We take a few supplements and if I think there’s one she can benefit from, I get it for her.
    She does all the cleaning on the inside of the house, laundry, dishwasher stuff bathrooms etc. I do all the outside physical work, but when she’s done inside and has the washer going, she comes out as fast as she can to help. She loves physical work and likes to be outside. We could get done faster if she did backyard stuff while I did front yard stuff, but she said she prefers to work alongside me, which is fine because its more fun to work side by side.

  9. Caspar Reyes says:

    Can there any good thing come out of Durham?

  10. Anonymous Reader says:

    The best part: all of those women think they are “submitting”, and their more radical feminist sistahs are convinced it’s all part of Teh Patriarchy’s ongoing oppression of women.

    As I’ve pointed out for close to 10 years, we all swim in a sewer of feminism, and thus most people do not even notice it. It’s just “there”, in the air we breath.

  11. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lexit
    I’m going to extend my critique to John Piper. Him and Wilson don’t agree when it comes to political application of their doctrines. However, they are both effeminate in their own way.

    Don’t forget Mr. Kathy Keller, whom some call….”Tim”. His own book reveals an ugly truth, as Dalrock showed almost 4 years ago; Mr. Kathy is in submission to the “Godly Tantrum” of his laydee-faire.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/12/23/unhinged/

  12. Anonymous Reader says:

    vfm7916
    Further, the “Disinterested boyfriend” is fucking up. Failing to lead in small examples is just as bad as ceding leadership.”

    Fixed that for you.
    PUA’s have a term: “Compliance testing”. It’s valid. The small things matter because they add up to big things, often regardless of intent.

  13. Trey says:

    @ Jake

    You speak for yourself, blah blah blah.

  14. American says:

    Not since ancient paganism have we seen such effeminacy in Western males. And though Christian culture now exudes it too, at least the way back to manhood sans-feminism is clear in the bible for the minority who still care to gain an genuine understanding of biblical orthodox exegesis in actual historical and linguistic context.

    Satan’s deceitful counterfeits have been adopted so widely now that most young Western males don’t even know what a real man is. Hint: It’s not the guy begging his mommy-wife to allow him to purchase a $2 can of peanuts with his own money at the grocery store.

  15. American says:

    @Anonymous Reader: We swim in a society infected by deconstruction of the truth and reinvention of the meta-narrative followed by implementation of the counterfeit, the fallacious degeneration of entire disciplines and the text, the dominion of therapy, authority replacement, the displacement of morality, heresy, apostasy, etc… with feminism leading the charge though itself it is unbiblical, rooted in anti-Christian movements, opposes God’s created order, makes all of the aforementioned errors leading people made in God’s image away from objective truth into ignorance, deceit, heresy, apostasy, and idolatry.

  16. Lexet Blog says:

    There are so many teachers, institutions, and ministries that have compromised on so many issues lately.

    It’s not coincidental that most of them are tied to each other. In this case, a common nexus is TGC, or a close relationship with someone at TGC.

    Unlike what another commenter has said, it is important to watch out for those who have influence within congregations. It helps to warn others of their theologies. Some want to fight every theological battle every generation, rather than naming/describing heresy, and putting the issue to rest in written form.

  17. Scott says:

    When I go shopping with Mychael I push the cart behind her and distract her with jokes about how cute she looks or by just doing stupid stuff to entertain myself because it’s so boring.

    I have no idea what’s on the shopping list and I don’t really care.

  18. Pingback: Doing as they were taught. | Reaction Times

  19. CartGuru says:

    We go shopping once a week. I have written an approved base list that I print a copy for my wife to fill in the amounts. There is also a section for extras, she is pregnant again, so often there will be ice cream. Before we leave home I will check the list and remove anything that seems superfluous (almost never happens). My wife cooks all the food from scratch and the base list contains a good variation of meat and vegetables to pick from so there is often only a handful of extras.

    In the store I man the cart and carry the list. I will read the next item for her to fetch and she will scurry away with a pat on the rear. The process will occasionally stop when I’ve decided that she has picked an option based on marketing as opposed to price vs quality in which case the cart stops, I will compare options and eventually decide which product is the one for our family. This will be assumed as the default when we shop the next week. She occasionally strays from the cart picking up multiple items given she memorized the list by heart, but never strays too far given she knows from experience the cart will keep moving with or without her. Sometimes our daughters help her out.

    I always pay. Sometimes she wants items on the list that I don’t approve and she has an option of buying them with her allowance. If I deem the item unhealthy enough then that is also verboten.

    Year 22 of a mutually very satisfying sacrament of marriage.

  20. Nitpicker says:

    This is almost funny, how all those men take Dalrock´s words for gospel and nod their wise heads when the subject is medieval french literature (which we today know close to nothing about) but when the cart pushing and yesdearing is in play, they squeak like shot-at geese.
    “Dalrock was right all those other times but wait, I know something very special about how to push a cart behind my wife and why that is so different.” Too real a subject.
    Just out of curiosity:
    Why on earth would you go shopping with your wife (or anyone else for that matter)? It´s a boring chore and one person is more than enough to do it, then why bore two people instead of one? Why wouldn´t you just go alone or send her alone?

  21. Scott says:

    Nitpicker

    Two reasons.

    First one: sometimes all four kids cannot be taken anywhere. Try shopping with four children (all under 10) with no help

    Second one: as pathetic as it sounds sometimes the opposite is true, and shopping with no kids is like a mini date where we can be flirty and have fun like we’re on a date

  22. thedeti says:

    nitpicker:

    well, at least your screen name checks out. Unfortunately the post’s point has escaped you.

    The point is not that you’re shopping with your wife. The point is the subservient attitude the men in question exhibited to their wives, not just in shopping, but in life. It’s not about “how to push a cart” or where, or when.

    Maybe if you read the other posts Dalrock linked to, you’ll understand.

  23. vfm7916 says:

    @scott speaks the truth.

    If you’re not married or have more than 2 children it’s very obvious to those of us who do.

  24. BB says:

    I don’t usually go shopping with her. Once in a while. When I do, I wander off and look at interesting things like the individual beers and the meat case. She thinks this is normal – doesn’t expect me to push the cart or help. She also thinks it is my job to put the brakes on her impulsive spending.
    Same thing when we go into a store like World Market once in a blue moon. She wants me to go off and look at beer, beef-jerky, etc. and enjoy myself. She understands what is boring to a man. I wish more wives were man-understanding and didn’t want to be married to a mangina.

  25. NotaBene says:

    I’m a micro-managing kitchen nazi. If wifey buys stuff I don’t like or normally eat, there better be a good reason. If not, it either goes right back for a return or straight into the trash. I don’t like cluttered cabinets full of 3-year old weird beans or whatever.

    I also require the kitchen to be cleaned up before making food of any kind, that includes dishes done and counters wiped.

    That said, I have never in 18 years of marriage required my wife to make food. She wants to do it every day, even with the above regulations. She’s a really great cook too. Shopping together is rare, but always pretty fun.

  26. cshort says:

    People still shop at the grocery store regularly? What craziness is this?

  27. Lost Patrol says:

    thedeti writes –

    The point is not that you’re shopping with your wife. The point is the subservient attitude the men in question exhibited to their wives, not just in shopping, but in life.

    This is what to look for. Nothing to do with groceries necessarily which just happens to be where J Allen observed the behavior but it could be anywhere, and it is just about everywhere if you watch for it. Every man should help his woman in whatever ways he sees fit. She is the weaker vessel and presumably he loves her and enjoys doing stuff with and for her. Not the point.

    This is about looking to her as his authority figure.

  28. Anonymous Reader says:

    @thedeti, Lost Patrol

    I cannot recall where I first read the term “Mall Sherpa”. But even now with retail shopping shrinking the Sherpas can still be seen. Loaded down with multiple bags of stuff, trudging along behind the Weaker Vessel and children. Downcast eyes, slumped shoulders, resignation on the face.

    This is about looking to her as his authority figure.

    Exactly.

  29. Boris says:

    I am with Cindy on this one. When shopping I would let anyone take command. I don’t care, let the torture end. I just don’t care much about that part. If she wants to take the stairs, elevator, a plane, sure why not? Most men I know see buying staff as a heist. Go, buy, get out, no questions asked.

  30. locustsplease says:

    I liked to go shopping with my exwife. It was fun with the kid she loved to go as a family. I also went so i could say no to her buying things you are not going to eat this week. Buying junk thats on sale we dont eat. If i didnt go she would never show with things i eat almost every day like ground beef frozen pizzas something edible.

    She filled 3 freezers with things i dont eat and she doesnt eat. How can a human with out a mental disability do that? I bought a freezer and didnt think i had to say anything to keep her from filling it it was a full stand up. It got filled with frozen vegetables a pile of the worst cuts if beef that just need to b ground and chicken thighs.

    Thinking about it after this post grocery shopping was the healthiest our relationship was. I was always a little pissed when shes buying things needing to save my tiny freezer fridge space and would tell her no and provide a reason. She always listened and respected my decisions.

    That said she wasnt telling me what to do. We would delegate and plan our week that fit both our needs. I see a lot of guys that have given in to being a slave to their women. And many who adopt a half homosexual attitude its sad.

  31. Sam says:

    If these guys don’t want to go shopping and aren’t needed they shouldn’t go. This eliminates the droopy trudging behind husband. It’s out of balance to flex on how tightly you control a shopping list, if you can’t trust her to shop properly you’re not at a place to be used as an example.

  32. Spike says:

    I’m not too concerned with how husbands behave while pushing a shopping trolley. My wife cooks, so she works that part of household operation. I accompany her and manhandle the heavy stuff. Our children note that we still operate as a team after 30+ years together.

    I just got a Millennial-era “triggering” from Doug Wilson.

    I PAY the mortgage in my home. I raised the deposit. I raised and service loans for costly and complex renovations
    So according to Wilson, I’m STILL supposed to consider myself a “guest”, still supposed to be at my wife’s sufferance, a position where she can kick me to the curb anytime?

    Where is the pastoral Finishing School that teaches pastors this garbage? I’m good with an axe, a sledgehammer and a crow bar. It’ll be dismantled in record time, occupied or not.

  33. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @Caspar Reyes
    Can there any good thing come out of Durham?

    Dalrock mentioned at the end of his post that Unzicker’s church is now pastored by J. D. Greear, so current evidence would suggest that the answer is . . . no. Here’s a piece that Greear posted on his blog a little over a year ago that not only reminds the husbands of their proper place, but also makes sure that the single men are indoctrinated at a young age in the proper tenets of holy vagina worship:

    How to Be a Happy Husband: Advice to a 15-year-old Son https://jdgreear.com/blog/happy-husband-advice-15-year-old-son/

    It has all kinds of helpful tips to ensure your future wife will always have the kind of faithful husband that follows along behind her in the grocery store and remembers to ask for permission when he wants to buy some nuts — or when he wants to have his back from out of her purse. Here are just a few!

    • Be her friend.
    • Do the dishes.
    • Learn how to have conflict.
    • Love in the midst of conflict.
    • Develop the skill to resolve conflict with compassion.
    • Apologize (and don’t expect an apology).
    • Demand respect for your wife, not from your wife.
    • Laugh at her jokes.
    • Listen to her.
    • Learn how to cook.
    • Never ever sleep on the couch. If necessary, sleep on the floor outside the bedroom door.

    However, there was one item at the beginning that I couldn’t help but find a bit quaint:

    • Assume that your girlfriend may be someone else’s future wife.

    Given the way that things are currently going in modern culture (and given also how eager the church usually is to give its stamp of approval to the latest social trends), I somehow suspect that it won’t be too long before we see churches like Pastor Greear’s telling husbands that they must learn to show respect by assuming that their wife may be someone else’s current girlfriend.

    And a modern church like the Summit certainly wouldn’t want to ruin her for that relationship!

  34. Jake says:

    @lexet

    Oh yes all these brand new heresies. Certainly not present in the church of laodicea. Not present with the nicoleatans. Not warned against in acts. Not called out by an ass to ba’alm while the Israelites wandered the desert. Not invented by the serpent in the garden. “You can be God”

    Waste your time writing it down for posterity. Waste your time with empty words at empty vessels. They are chattering fools. Learning and speaking their language highlights your ignorance, not theirs. They know what they are doing.

    Commenter talked about a finishing school for pastors. It’s exactly what seminary is. Take a young man who loves the Lord and has a desire to serve and turn him into a bayly or Kelley or Piper. A two minded mealy mouthed milksop, concerned with attendance and salary more than Jesus receiving his due. I don’t need to learn their garbage language because I’m calling out the same garbage heresies that my King called out through his servant John, and Paul, and Peter.

    These heresies are not new and calling them such is ignorance, and crediting these false prophets with way too much originality.

    Fighting the same theological battle every generation is what we do. I don’t care what you write. I don’t care what terms you use. How many treatises you read on Romans. You’d be better served following phineas’s example.

  35. Yeah. I see this “Mother, may I??…” business a little too frequently. Makes you cringe.
    But its very common now. Wife considers and treats the husband just like another one of her kids. Eye rolls at him. Scolds him. Nags him. Snarky, backhanded comments, etc. “Can’t you do anything right?”.
    It must be a terrible existence for him. But it must be hell for her to have to have sex with such a man. So I assume she just doesn’t.

    One time at a local Albertson’s I heard loud shouts of “Come On!” in one of the other grocery store aisles.Abrasive, irritated and sarcastic tone. I thought that yelling was directed at non-compliant or insolent children.

    When I walked past that aisle, I see a husband white knuckling the grocery store cart bars. Saying nothing while she’s scowling at the wares. Three year old little boy watching it all unfold right there.
    I’m positive it continued in the car on the way home.
    Horrible.
    No man should ever tolerate that.

  36. Anon says:

    I can’t help but think how closely related this to the ‘Ward Cleaver is a Stud!’ video.

  37. CartMaster says:

    Aside from the light humor, the critics of Shopping Cart Game are missing two subtle lessons on frame:

    1. The men in these households decided that pushing a shopping cart was the way *their* family would do groceries. Frame is always dependent on the people involved.

    2. Every little interaction is a way to strengthen or weaken frame. Scott makes the point most eloquently, Mycheal must simply love being in his frame while doing the simplest of chores.

    Rigidly following arbitrary rules does not frame strengthen.

  38. MZT says:

    Since I am newly retired I quite happily shop with my wife these days. I ensure that we don’t buy any Proctor and Gamble products.

  39. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I was in a newly remodeled Starbucks today. Two bathrooms. One was for Women and one was for All Genders.

    ???

    Each bathroom had only one room. I entered the All Genders bathroom and it had a toilet, a urinal, and a sink.

    So, women can use both bathrooms. Men are limited to one, which they must share with women, and with every other of the 32 genders.

    I suppose I can probably enter the women’s bathroom. If anyone challenges me, I can say I’m a woman. Nobody would believe me, but nobody would challenge me, lest they appear transphobic. The police, especially, would dare not challenge me. Their website was drenched with rainbows during June’s LGBT Pride Month.

  40. cynthia says:

    My husband is in his late thirties, and used to cooking for himself. He’s pretty good at it, but he also grew up around Boomer academia females, you know, the ones who “got it all” and never suffered the consequences of second-wave feminism. They drilled all kinds of hang-ups into him. He thought it was cruel and unusual punishment to ask his wife (me) to do any cooking.

    It’s taken about six month for him to get even sort of comfortable with me doing the bulk of the cooking and the grocery shopping. I ask him what he wants for the week and do most of the cooking over the weekend. It seems to be a novel experience for him; the same can be said for me doing most of the household chores. I have to relate everything back to “reasonable and equitable divisions of labor”, which is really where gender roles came from in the first place – it’s like modern women don’t understand that our female ancestors intentionally took the easier jobs.

    He’s a really good man, but he got sold a bad bill of goods by his older female family members. Based on how many childless career women there are amongst his cousins, it isn’t a strategy that’s been effective in continuing the family. You know there are problems when a woman cooking starts an argument.

    It’s conditioned behavior, those soyboy husbands at the grocery store. Western women need to stop being so self-centered and stop emasculating their men, but the only way to get that message through is to make it self-serving for the women. There’s nothing sexy about a man with no backbone, but divorce is the release valve that lets us rip men apart, because you can always walk away from him and start over. We need to be forced to live with the consequences.

  41. sipcode says:

    Adam did not transgress in the Garden. But, God gave him a bit of Wisdom …because he hearkened to the voice of the woman.

    Men: stop hearkening to the voice of the woman in ANYTHING. Women need to shut the fuck up.

    This is the BEGINNING of the healing of the church. Forget the likes of commenter ‘Cindy.’ Forget the female weathercaster. Forget the opinion, the voice of women in all things. Voice at its root is the demand to be recognized, and women [now] all over the globe are demanding to be recognized.. I know of no stronger action then to ignore them, and no stronger words then to identify them as practicing witches [as in ‘rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft’; and don’t be swayed by some sweet Christian older lady]]. There is no greater practical paradox then the woman: so close to life for a man [not good that he is alone] …and then so close to death for him [she hands him T:HAT fruit regularly]. But Christ was clear: the man must ‘hate’ his wife relative to Him.

    BOLDLY Identify and discard the practicing witch, no longer hearkening to her voice, for she is rather to glorify YOU.

  42. Lost Patrol says:

    This topic brings to mind something Tom Lemke posted in the previous thread.

    Even now in the conservative movement you can see the young women lobbying to strike marriage off the list of status symbols.

    https://thefederalist.com/2019/08/27/idolizing-marriage-motherhood-isnt-godly/

    MGTOW, meet WGTOW.

    You’re thinking LP has misunderstood the subject at hand again. Nay brothers, or rather, maybe; but I am thinking of the substantial numbers of men I know that not only do as they were taught by following the lead of, and submitting to their wives as Dalrock shows – but put in overtime following the lead of, and submitting to their grown daughters as well. They have a small flock of women in charge of them rather than just the one, and from these flocks I am starting to see a growing number of the WGTOW type from the linked article.

    The fathers are church men that have unmarried 20 something year old daughters, could be one or more, that they also serve, obey, and endlessly extol the virtues of. I don’t know how they keep them all happy and maybe they don’t, but we are seeing the effects over time of the Complementarian style training package in this. The young women I am thinking of are now closer to 30 than to 20 years old. They each have “ministries” of their own, which I will put in quotes but which in fact I would have to acknowledge as doing bona fide good works for others that require sacrifice of time and energy. Dad enables this by publicly praising it, oft times funding it, and always throwing in with whatever project the daughter(s) have decided is priority at the moment.

    Obviously I don’t know what they get up to in their free time, but none of these young women shows the slightest outward interest in being wives or mothers. Some have stated out loud that they are not wife material (such a woman should be believed). None are seen publicly in the company of an unrelated man unless in groups, and in these circles it is not the kind of thing that could be kept under wraps. They eschew the young church men around them no matter how much interest the men show in them. These women are doing as they were taught, same as the men are doing what they were taught; and what they were both taught is increasingly divergent.

    They don’t need a man to do the church man type stuff for or with them, because Dad is standing in that gap. Of course these particular women are not 30 years old quite yet, which I suppose could change the story.

  43. steve says:

    You guys go shopping? My wife loves me and does that while I’m working. Suckers!

  44. Jon Patch says:

    I, too, push the cart at the grocery. Like Scott, this is a mini-date experience most of the time and there is much interaction and flirting. We are empty nest most of the time and plan meals on the fly at the store, typically 3 dinners a week, with the other nights being leftovers, or dinner out about once a week. My wife is an excellent cook and I defer to her in most of the ingredients after we decide on meals. I manage the cart and select the steaks and the fresh seafood, as well as advise her on which product sizes and brands are the best value. She shows great care toward me by asking if I want rice or potatoes with a particular meal, what vegetable, etc. Planning and purchasing and preparing these meals together is very strong for the relationship and we enjoy it. When my boys are around (all over 18) it is more fun because she takes a special interest in getting things that will please them and further building her relationship with my sons. There are many couples doing the shopping at the same time as us and I have not witnessed the supplicating husband thing and I do watch. It is encouraging and there are frequent knowing nods amongst us, the husbands.

  45. Joe2 says:

    Would your husband say “can I get some peanuts?” In a mother-may-I tone of voice?

    It’s encouraging to read that women still cook today and not just grab some prepared food and boil water. Lack of context makes understanding the above quote impossible. Who knows why he asked. For all we know, they could be using “peanuts” as some kind of sex toy or read about how “peanuts” could be used as such and was simply inquiring if tonight was the night.

  46. Anonymous Reader says:

    cynthia
    It’s conditioned behavior, those soyboy husbands at the grocery store

    Betaization is conditioned behavior; neural pathways that are continually reinforced by hits of dopamine. Seeing through The Glasses requires a man to deliberately do the opposite of what he has been conditioned to do. This is a big part of the reason why “red pilling” can be such a task, because that mental energy isn’t free.

    Your husband is better off away from his female relations. You already know that, I’m just saying.

  47. BillyS says:

    sipcode,

    Adam did not transgress in the Garden. But, God gave him a bit of Wisdom …because he hearkened to the voice of the woman.

    That was his sin. It was not a “bit of advice” it was sin! Get it straight.

    That doesn’t mean it is always wrong to listen to our wives, but it is when it leads us to sin!

    ======

    I wanted input from my exwife. I know I tend to spend too much, but I would never get a thoughtful answer, just a knee-jerk one (yes or no was irrelevant). I wanted someone who worked with me that could make me think better. Not a harsh judge, but a smart soft word. I unfortunately never got that.

  48. Jäk Bartön says:

    @DarwinianArminian

    …”Given the way that things are currently going in modern culture (and given also how eager the church usually is to give its stamp of approval to the latest social trends), I somehow suspect that it won’t be too long before we see churches like Pastor Greear’s telling husbands that they must learn to show respect by assuming that their wife may be someone else’s current girlfriend.”

    Excellent, just excellent – a very biting bit of shiv-play. I doff my old skeleton’s skull cap to you, but I’m trying not to loose my head.

    I’ll show myself out…

  49. Spike says:

    Red Pill Latecomer says:
    September 25, 2019 at 1:16 am
    “I was in a newly remodeled Starbucks today. Two bathrooms. One was for Women and one was for All Genders”.

    A University Gym not far from where I work was segregated along the same lines. It was literally divided in half. Half was “Women Only” and half “All Genders”.
    I’m glad I have gotten excellent result, fitness wise, buying my own equipment and using it on my back verandah.

  50. DrTorch says:

    Good piece by Suzanne Venker

    Some excerpts
    women today don’t understand men. They’ve been taught to believe the sexes are the same and, as a result, believe that when men don’t act the way women do, men are somehow misbehaving.

    This bitter condescension toward men is not only wrong but counterproductive. How can any relationship flourish when men are viewed in this way?

    1. Men and women do not parent the same way because they’re not interchangeable beings

    2. Men do a crap ton of housework (or kid related tasks) that rarely, if ever, gets mentioned.

    3. Men don’t complain the way women do.

    4. The soul of a man is a hero.

    Men are not defective women. But that’s exactly what the culture teaches—via films, television (even commercials!) and articles.

    https://www.suzannevenker.com/alpha-women/men-arent-defective-women-theyre-men/

  51. NCMike says:

    I’ve seen this at restaurants where you go to a counter to order. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen middle aged men go up to the attendant and say in a mother may I voice, “Can I get a …”. I swear they slouch their shoulders too.

  52. A Regular Guy says:

    So… much… cringe. I feel like I have to take a shower now.

  53. Paul says:

    Suzanne Venker is getting some things right. She’s still into chivalry though, and expects “modern men” to regularly be “housemen”.

  54. Lost Patrol writes:
    Obviously I don’t know what they get up to in their free time, but none of these young women shows the slightest outward interest in being wives or mothers. Some have stated out loud that they are not wife material (such a woman should be believed). None are seen publicly in the company of an unrelated man unless in groups, and in these circles it is not the kind of thing that could be kept under wraps. They eschew the young church men around them no matter how much interest the men show in them. These women are doing as they were taught, same as the men are doing what they were taught; and what they were both taught is increasingly divergent.

    Even as recently as, say, 20 years ago, when a man wanted to pursue a woman for marriage, his objective was to convince her to marry him instead of another man. It was always assumed or expected that the woman would get married, it was only a question as to whom.

    Now, the man has the much taller order of convincing the woman to get married at all. Most young women, even Christian women, are brought up with attitudes toward marriage ranging from indifference to open hostility. How is an average man supposed to counteract that programming?

  55. Jim says:

    It has always bothered me how most grocery stores help groom children for molesters by allowing porn such as “Cosmopolitan” to be displayed in the checkout magazine rack in full view of the kids.
    Wal-Mart stopped doing this a year ago.

  56. feeriker says:

    “I was in a newly remodeled Starbucks today. Two bathrooms. One was for Women and one was for All Genders”.

    Yet another reason, as if we needed any more, for decent, moral human beings to avoid Starbucks like the plague. Matter o’ fact, a good rule of thumb is to avoid any Seattle-based business at all, all of them being the epitome of pozzed (I have never eaten at a Mod Pizza before and was going to check them out – that is before I visited their web site, saw that they are Seattle-based, and read their list of corporate values. Needless to say, I instantly changed my mind about giving them my business and will never, ever give them a dime of my money).

  57. Jim Christian says:

    Hideous too, the visions of the skinny husband being told in no uncertain terms and a nasty tone of voice by the obese wife he can’t have this or that bread or cereal. And they take it. I avert my gaze, it isn’t my humiliation, but I wanna tell them to man up on that stuff. Shame on them.

  58. Anonymous Reader says:

    Those men don’t know, and they don’t know that they don’t know.
    They don’t know that they really have the authority to not put up with that crap. They have been brainwashed into submission. They actually believe that they are being the “nice guy”.

    IN reality, that submission merely increases the contempt that their wives have for them. A pair of The Glasses would enable them to see clearly, and to take corrective action.

    It’s difficult to fit a man for The Glasses when he’s been hoodwinked.

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