The weakened signal hits home.

When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands.

–Sheryl Sandberg

A new study is making the rounds that found a mismatch between the imaginary men unmarried women are planning on marrying, and the real life unmarried men available to these women.  This mismatch between fantasy and reality is predictably generating outrage that weak men are screwing feminism up.  From the NY Post:  Broke men are hurting American women’s marriage prospects

…researchers created profiles of potential husbands, based on real husbands as logged in American Community Survey data. They then compared these hypothetical spouses with actual unmarried men.

They found that a woman’s made-up hubby makes 58 percent more money than the current lineup of eligible bachelors.

“This study reveals large deficits in the supply of potential male spouses,” the study concludes.

“Many young men today have little to bring to the marriage bargain, especially as young women’s educational levels on average now exceed their male suitors’,” Lichter says.

This shouldn’t be surprising.  The women who picked first chose the best options.  The ones who waited to pick last are left with the rest.

But there is another aspect to this, because women’s past decisions to delay marriage also played a role in shrinking the pool of men who prepared to take on the role of provider.  The first generations of women who decided to push out the age of marriage for the most part found that the same number of men still prepared to be husbands.  But over time as the length of the delay increased, this weakened the signal women collectively sent to young men that respectable men will be sexually successful.  It isn’t just that young women are now astonishingly open about their intent to have sex with badboys in their prime and settle for a beta provider at the last minute, although that has to have an impact.  It also isn’t just that as a society we see married fathers as beneath contempt, although surely that’s having an impact as well.  Today an 18 year old man doesn’t see the same incentive to knock himself out on education and career that men of previous generations saw.  Today an 18 year old man sees that for the next decade or so his most effective sexual strategy is to focus on being the sexy badboy young women dedicate their sexual prime to, not patiently preparing to be the boring loyal dude who will pick up the tab*.

What should surprise us is not that men are slowly responding to the radical changes brought about by our still ongoing sexual revolution.  What should surprise us is how many young men still focus their youth preparing for a role our society despises.   Either way, young men are slowly starting to respond to the messages we are collectively shouting at them, and we should expect this trend to increase over time.

It is also worth remembering the outrage the “Princeton Mom” Susan Patton received back in 2013 for her advice to Princeton women to stop sexing up bad boys and snap up the best prospective husbands before other women beat them to the punch.  From her original letter to the women attending Princeton:

Smart women can’t (shouldn’t) marry men who aren’t at least their intellectual equal. As Princeton women, we have almost priced ourselves out of the market. Simply put, there is a very limited population of men who are as smart or smarter than we are. And I say again—you will never again be surrounded by this concentration of men who are worthy of you.

From her interview with CNN after she published a book expounding on the same subject:

Kelly: I cracked up when I read what you wrote: “Be aware of marrying a dumb guy for good sex. The sex won’t improve, and he’ll never get smarter.”

Patton: There are two barnyard analogies that I cite regularly. The first is men will not buy the cow if the milk is free, and that’s the truth. If you give men sex without commitment, you have eliminated the incentive for them to commit. …
An equally important barnyard analogy has to do with just what you’re talking about: the bad guys, the crazy boys, just the men you know you shouldn’t spend time with. I’m telling women avoid wasting time with the pigs for the sake of a little sausage.

H/T Anno, Nick M.

*Details on the chart here.

Related:  Will Wilcox and the men of National Review respect you in the morning?

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This entry was posted in Aging Feminists, Data, Disrespecting Respectability, Fantasy vs Reality, Finding a Spouse, Marriage, Marriage Strike, Nevermarried, New York Post, Sheryl Sandberg, Weak men screwing feminism up. Bookmark the permalink.

471 Responses to The weakened signal hits home.

  1. The Question says:

    “What should surprise us is how many young men still focus their youth preparing for a role our society despises. ”

    That same society will undermine his efforts to succeed at every turn, then turn around and blame that man later on for not being sufficiently successful to meet the unrealistic expectations of aging spinsters.

  2. Mike says:

    “‘Many young men today have little to bring to the marriage bargain….’”

    I suspect there’s another aspect at work here too. Were they to poll young men, I’d guess their made-up wives would be something on the order of 58% lighter than real-life prospective wives. Many young women today have considerably too much to bring to the marriage bargain.

  3. What I find most surprising is that the figures are shifting so little. Most men are still ready and honoured to marry a woman once she’s had her fun and needs a retirement plan.
    If you went back to 1919 and wrote a science fiction story about this, no one would believe it. They’d believe the smart phones and moon missions, but not this.

  4. Aphron says:

    “What should surprise us is how many young men still focus their youth preparing for a role our society despises.”

    I was very surprised when my 25 yo son (has a degree in STEM) recently got married and my 22 yo daughter plans on getting married next month (especially daughter…she has a liberal arts degree). I guess we parented well, so it can be done. Sadly, it is an uphill battle because we have to teach kids that it is society that has the problem, not them. There are “normies” out there.

  5. Anon says:

    I am soooooooooo glad that the costs of misandry are finally circling back onto women. Even a magical change in our legal code and culture cannot reverse this trend.

    It is almost like this was a bubble that is in the gradual process of unwinding.

  6. Minesweeper says:

    Men, clearly must try harder. Slackers that they are.

  7. Anon says:

    The dishonest sermonizing from cuckservatives like Brad Wilcucks and Jim Gay-ratty is being exposed.

  8. Anon says:

    From the NY Post article :

    “Many young men today have little to bring to the marriage bargain, especially as young women’s educational levels on average now exceed their male suitors’,” Lichter says.

    While this is nothing different than what child abuser Hanna Rosin was saying a decade ago, the sheer breathtaking delusion inherent to this sentence, which has at least four falsehood readily visible to red-pill guys, is a sight to behold.

  9. Anon says:

    Dalrock,

    Not to be forgotten is the huge increase (proportionately) for older men in the 50-64 range. A rise from 5% to 10% may not seem like a lot, but it is. I would say that is an equally important part of the chart, even if men that age usually don’t have children.

    That is also another element of the screws tightening. A lot of men who were content to be a second or third husband are no longer obliging. It also means that a 37 y/o is finding it harder to land even a 52 y/o never-married man.

  10. It saddens me, Dalrock, that your piercingly cogent analysis of the issue will not gain the necessary traction by widespread transmission. Instead, the MSM will continue to give us a specious overview; that dances around the elephant in the room that is Feminist ideology.

  11. Dalrock says:

    @Anon

    Not to be forgotten is the huge increase (proportionately) for older men in the 50-64 range. A rise from 5% to 10% may not seem like a lot, but it is. I would say that is an equally important part of the chart, even if men that age usually don’t have children.

    Agreed. I did a follow up post using the same basic chart pointing this out:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/evidence-of-a-marriage-strike/

  12. Anon says:

    Hi Dalrock,

    Thanks. Perhaps a chart worth adding is the ‘second derivative’ chart, if it is not too much trouble.

    I.e. a chart that captures the percentage change delta between the 2003 percentages vs. 2017.

    For example, 50% rising to 60% is a 20% bar in the second chart, but 5% rising to 10% is 100%. A 100% rise from a small base is still important here, since the pressure it causes on women seeking men from this shrinking pool is exponential, not linear.

    The reason this information may reveal a lot, is the ‘constriction’ effect will become more evident, and may enable more prediction about when panic will become extreme. The two separate phenomena at work here will eventually combine, just like two drops of water join to form a larger one.

    I think that the ‘Men on Strike’ age band you highlighted exerts a huge amount of downward pressure on women in the 35-40 range, who in turn exert pressure on women in the 30-32 range who expect that their marriage prospects are still fully in tact.

  13. ZMAN says:

    How about covering the fact that women today are now becoming the very men they want to marry? Look at the percentage of women being hoisted into everywhere a man is….medical schools, pharmacy schools, business schools, law school, and now everywhere in the military including infantry and special operations positions. The unfortunate thing about all of this is that there are many men who will be pushed out of these positions in order to accommodate a woman who should not be there. In fact, several of my friends have completed US Army Ranger School recently after it was opened to women. I asked them point blank are the women actually passing or are they being allowed to pass? Without a pause, I was told they are being allowed to pass. The standards have been lowered to accommodate a bunch of women who couldn’t cut it. The majority of women in the military shouldn’t be there either and I’ve seen this first hand. Most of them are straight up the biggest sluts you can imagine and the few others are just there to marry a chump and become a dependapatomus.

    The stupidity of this is that there are going to be less and less men that are going to be even let into these fields to become a doctor, accountant, military etc. Less and less men will want to even entertain the idea of this as society increasingly has to cater to women and minorities by dumbing down the education to allow them to become doctors, accountants, etc. Then take all of the harassment regulations, laws, etc. that will punish men for even flirting or trying to get with one of the women in their class. One wrong move and you can be kicked out of your schooling and your left holding the bag of a large amount of student debt. Why do that to yourself? It is not like it is going to help you get a wife or have a stable life.

    Another thing that is not mentioned is that women are delaying marriage by pursuing careers and becoming like men. Instead of cultivating a relationship they cultivated their careers. I am seeing this already with girls in their 20s who want nothing to do with anyone or at least that is how they act. Plenty of them will willingly have one night stands with a willing fool. There are going to be more and more professional women who are going to end up single/childless into their 30s and beyond. You couldn’t pay me to touch one of these women because of how fucked up their attitudes are, absolute masculine energy, taking so much dick, and just generally trashy people with some kind of sociopathic mentality.

    The upcoming generation is the generation that has come of age from divorced parents, single mothers, economic calamities in 2001/2008, etc. There is no certainty to anything anymore especially relationships. Women can literally swap you out in a heartbeat via online dating or one of the thirsty desperate autistic idiots hitting her up on facebook, Instagram, snap chat, etc. Oftentimes this is exactly what happens. A good friend of mine, his wife was prostituting herself on craigslist and selling underwear to dudes on there.

    You should also note the insane lack of social skills that the current generation has. Loads of women are now smart phone autistic morons who have no idea how to properly attract a man….you know make eye contact, smile, open body language, and putting themselves in a position to where a guy can approach them and get to know them. American women have stopped this behavior just about completely. I’ve never seen more women who are so closed off to men, cold, impersonal, and socially stunted.

    This generation of women do enjoy the real life attention/validation when they know it is happening and their face is not in their phone but many of them get it online from their orbiters and they have their faces in their phones 24/7, good luck trying to separate them from that. The social media whoring is off the charts. Snap chat tit/ass pics to the main guy and send out some bread crumbs to the chumps is how it works. In person, actual genuine conversation getting to know someone? Forget about it. It is all what you can do for them and not what they can do for you, which is basically offering you a pre-used pussy that a number of other dudes got for free and if you play your cards right it can be you too.

    It has nothing to do with broke guys and everything to do with a totally rigged and corrupted system that is destroying the society. These women are given every preference for jobs, education, medical care, etc. And they want to blame men? It is not my fault you aren’t satisfied with your corporate-government job. It is not my fault you whored yourself out. It is not my fault you are never married, alone, and childless. These women should start blaming themselves for falling for the feminist lies and I don’t believe any of these women coming out saying they are anti-feminist or any of that nonsense. Just look at Lauren Southern turns out she was sucking/fucking everybody to advance herself. Never trust a tradthot, feminist, or any of these women.

    Yeah I’m MGTOW for life.

  14. Gunner Q says:

    ZMAN @ 5:30 pm:
    “How about covering the fact that women today are now becoming the very men they want to marry? Look at the percentage of women being hoisted into everywhere a man is….medical schools, pharmacy schools, business schools, law school, and now everywhere in the military including infantry and special operations positions. The unfortunate thing about all of this is that there are many men who will be pushed out of these positions in order to accommodate a woman who should not be there.”

    Exactly! This isn’t a weakened signal, it’s male replacement.

    2010: We need to reserve college space for women so they can be tomorrow’s STEM professionals!

    2020: Why aren’t men out-earning women anymore?

  15. Anon says:

    In another piece of good news, Bill Maher has once again become brave enough to cautiously verbalize certain red-pill stats. For a while there, he was way too afraid to do that, but is peeking his head out again :

  16. horsemanbombadil says:

    If you look at the chart, the two blocks at 38-43 appear to be the anomoly as they flatten for no reason. The rest of the chart shows the same roughly proportional weakened signal out to retirement age.

  17. horsemanbombadil says:

    I also wonder what affect Price’s law will have. The idea that work productivity is disproportionately concentrated in any endeavor (50% of the work is done by the square root of the number of workers. 3:9, 10 :100.). As the signal is weakened from both ends, no reward for being a provider and lowered standards for women to compete, the number of competents in Prices group will shrink to the point of unsustainability.

    Its why many companies that could weather a downturn suddenly collapse, Price’s cadre bail and the remaining incompetents cannot pick up double the work.

    We all know the Radar who when they leave need at least three Klingers to make up for it.

  18. Nick M says:

    I love when I click on the refresh button, and I have something new to chew on.

    Anyway, Zman, do you have more infos on Lauren Southern ways?

    So, women want basically their man to earn as much as their manager or supervisor at their job.

    That’s a very high price for used up… fertility.

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    Anon
    Bill Maher has once again become brave enough to cautiously verbalize certain red-pill stats.

    Blue Pill Bill said one sentence, reciting death stats. That’s about 30 seconds, tops. The rest of the segment is just drivel. “We are a young species, and women bear the brunt of that” – sure, Bill, why don’t you just get down on the floor and lick her shoes, too?

    The SJW’s that try to keep Sommers off campus are just a logical extension of her own feminism, but women don’t generally get that whole concept of “cause and effect”. She’s no exception.

    Yawn.
    One aging Boomer interviews another aging Boomer on a cable show watched by few. Irrelevancy ensues. Nobody under 50 is paying attention to either of them, and nobody in government or industry is going to bother with Sommer’s thesis, because lawfare. Maher’s tentative little bleat of truth won’t have any effect, either.

    Thanks for reminding me why I stopped bothering with babble shows years back.

  20. Lawrence says:

    “What should surprise us is how many young men still focus their youth preparing for a role our society despises. “

    What roles are you referring to that society despises? If (beta) men are continuing to serve at the feet of women I would think society favors and benefits from that.

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    ZMAN
    How about covering the fact that women today are now becoming the very men they want to marry?

    Some of us have been pointing that out in various places for close to 10 years. Nobody listens. Least of all feminists.

  22. Dalrock says:

    @Lawrence

    What roles are you referring to that society despises? If (beta) men are continuing to serve at the feet of women I would think society favors and benefits from that.

    Married men in general (providers), and especially married fathers. Secular society has beef with the patriarchy, but ironically modern Christians have a far more visceral dislike of married fathers, especially married fathers who bring their children to church on Sundays. See also: The Father’s Day Sermon.

    This is true despite that fact that society clearly benefits from the very roles it despises.

  23. Frank K says:

    If you went back to 1919 and wrote a science fiction story about this, no one would believe it. They’d believe the smart phones and moon missions, but not this.

    Imagine what they would think of other social innovations, such as homosexual marriage or men being allowed to declare themselves women and demand access to our children (drag queen story time). Or that we not only have homosexual governors but even an openly homosexual candidate running for the White House? Or that we have a whole official month to celebrate sodomy, including huge parades and our embassies and consulates proudly fly the homosexual flag?

    I can only imagine the horror they would feel.

  24. Frank K says:

    One aging Boomer interviews another aging Boomer on a cable show watched by few. Irrelevancy ensues.

    They are not only irrelevant, they are the object of contempt of the new left. The only thing that is surprising is that they haven’t already been deplatformed.

  25. Anonymous Reader says:

    They are not only irrelevant, they are the object of contempt of the new left. The only thing that is surprising is that they haven’t already been deplatformed.

    Sommers has to hire security to speak on at least some college campuses. She’s inching closer to being canceled. Maher’s show is a low traffic cable show probably only viewed by people over 50, so effectively he’s already deplatformed as far as the SJW’s are concerned.

    I guess I’m going to have to go re-read books about the Chinese Cultural Revolution in order to come up with a mental model for the current year. That seems to be a close-enough fit, for now.

  26. Pingback: The weakened signal hits home. | Reaction Times

  27. Liz says:

    Sommers has to hire security to speak on at least some college campuses
    The left has a longstanding tradition of sacrificing their useful idiots, once that usefulness has expired.

  28. Liz says:

    Just looked up the stats (I don’t watch television) Maher has about 1.5 million viewers.
    Which is about twice the number CNN has (but only half the number Tucker Carlson has).

  29. Jack Russell says:

    Wasn’t surprised that this was going to be a topic. No mention about divorce laws, high N count, women in the west (with exceptions) are not women anymore.
    Coach Greg Adams has a nearly 2 hour program on it. I am listening to it right now.

  30. TheTraveler says:

    One major group of losers is Gen X men. They grew up having to show respect to all adults, but get none in turn from Millennials and younger. Male X’ers are expected to kowtow to Boomers (“paying dues”), but don’t get the same in return–it’s all about policies/workspaces/desires of the Millenials, the Boomers’ kids. Gen X men are expected to sit in their cubes, dead-ended but super-productive, while Boomers run things, clearing the way for their special and brilliant fast-tracked offspring: the number of “what Millennials want/like/demand” articles in business journals–written by themselves and their doting Boomer enablers–is sickening.

    The Boomers “had it all,” marriage AND career. The Pre-boomers likewise poisoned their daughters’ minds with feminism, causing them to spend a generation disdaining decent men, who were told to work hard, be upstanding,
    and eventually the girls would come around. Except they never did, until now, when X’er men, now middle-aged, are being bullied to marry these washed-up hags who wouldn’t so much as spit in their direction for a quarter-century-plus. Because “age appropriate” — how DARE you seek a fertile younger woman, you selfish douchebag!

    Millennial women have upped the ante. Millennial white males are raised believing that their heritage makes them criminals against humanity, and any brutality or injustice is just a fraction of what they “deserve.” But they still get to impose their work and cultural preferences on male Gen X’ers.

    It’s not a contest–things are pretty rotten for everyone, including the demonic elites. But I can’t help but think that male X’ers had their parents’ Pre-Boomer rules changed on them in the middle of the game by the Boomers and their special snowflake offspring.

    And yes, I’m one of them. My work is valued highly but I’m expected to sit quietly in my corner, dead-ended, too old to start over but at the age when previous generations started getting the levers of power. Unless you commit to serve the Boomers and their progeny, and their dippy ideology, you’re going nowhere.

  31. Scott says:

    The biggest trick the Devil ever played was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

    I think this, more than anything, is the main reason men are still lining up.

    I don’t want to project my own personal experience onto this, for fear of making myself look dense and clueless. But when I re-entered the single/marriage market against my will in 2001, one would think I had learned a lesson. But I dove right back into the same blue-pill conditioned routines for finding a girl.

    Most men have been convinced that all the crazy stories about divorce-r@pe, unfounded DV accusations, and all the rest are for the losers on COPS. The kinds of girls I associate with and I am looking for are not like that. It just wasn’t meant to be, but I’ll find it.

    in 2002, right after my trainwreck divorced for “emotional abandonment” this Keith Urban song came out:

    There’s a new wind blowing like I’ve never known
    I’m breathing deeper than I’ve even done
    And it sure feels good to finally feel the way I do
    And I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    And I let go of all my lonely yesterdays
    I’ve forgiven myself for the mistakes I’ve made
    Now there’s just one thing the only thing I want to do
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    Yeah I want to feel the sunshine
    Shining down on me and you
    When you put your arms around me
    You let me know there’s nothing in this world I can’t do
    I used to run in circles going nowhere fast
    I’d take one step forward and took two steps back
    I couldn’t walk a straight line even if I wanted to
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    Oh here we go now, ooo, yeah,
    Hey I want to love ya baby,
    Oh oh, oh oh
    Yea I want to feel the sunshine
    Shining down on me and you
    When you put your arms around me
    Well baby there ain’t nothing in this world I can’t do
    Sometime it’s hard for me to understand
    But your teaching me to be a better man
    I don’t want to take this life for granted like I used to do, no no
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    I’m ready to love somebody, love somebody like you
    I want to love somebody, love somebody like you
    Hey I want to love ya baby, ah uh
    I want to be the man in the middle of the night shining like it’s true
    I wanna to be the man that you run to whenever I call on you
    When everything that loved someone finally found it’s way
    I wanna be a better man I can see it in you yeah
    Hey I want to love you baby
    Ah ah yeah, na na na na na

    And I thought–“see! If Keith Urban can get over a break up and find his Nicole Kidman, then so can I! Love is awesome and there’s someone out there that God made just for me!”

    The constant stream of RomComs from the middle of 80s til now have provided a salve–a veneer–for what is going on. Cue the story of how you met your last girlfriend with super cutsey music.

    So as long as Christina Hoff-Sommers and Bill Maher can wax philosophical about those crazy, wild eyed feminists who don’t really represent the overall trend then don’t you see, the risks of having your life destroyed are really small. After all, you don’t hang around with crazy.

  32. Oss says:

    So many good comments. I saw this headline the other day and immediately thought of Dalrock, picturing the his post titled “Marriage rates are down again…and guess who’s to blame?” But then, he may have used that on the last, last, last article the media sold us with that substance.

    Anyhow, I have been redpilling my sons as best I can (with wife’s encouragement). Like so many Gen-Xers my age, I think of ALL the years of comments I’ve heard from women “you just like Asian women because they are subservient” and all that stuff…I saw two super huge women in line at a store, and shook my head while recalling how many times I’ve heard (let’s face it, WHITE) men shamed for liking “thin” (meaning, fit, not fat) women…and then I looked down at the Kankles on both women and yes…they had tats too.

    I have four sons (preteen up to college) and I told my 16 year old, not to EVER SETTLE for an American woman. Or any woman that does not meet his Prince-ly standard (LOL). HE is the prize…not them. It’s amazing how quickly he gets it, compared to his older brother (early 20s) who took years to shake off the blue pilling he received all his life. I attribute that to the micro-generational difference in the two, not social IQ. Things are just changing so fast that my teen gets things my eldest 10 years ago would have needed major deprogramming to get when he was a teen.

  33. Scott says:

    Someone upthread mentioned Generations Xers.

    This movie came out in 1992, I was 21. Two years later, I was married. I was, and essentially still am “Steve.” My “strategy”–basically pulled from the playbook of a steady diet of movies like this–“worked” for lack of a better term.

    Almost a decade later, I was divorced and went back to the old playbook. This is why we still do it. It’s fun, cool, and feels good.

  34. Anon says:

    Speaking of ‘broke men’, not to be forgotten is the fact that Income Tax and Spending flows are overwhelmingly tilted towards men being net payers and women being net recipients. 70-80% of income taxes are paid by men, but 70-80% of spending goes to women (that includes deficit spending net of taxes).

    Of course there is a shortage of men who make over 50% more than single women seeking husbands – many womens’ income is the byproduct of taxes seized from men and given to women (on top of affirmative action for women, etc.).

  35. Anon says:

    Liz,

    Which is about twice the number CNN has (but only half the number Tucker Carlson has).

    Tucker is 5 days a week (I think) while Maher is once a week. So Tucker has a LOT more eyeballs.

    But the formats are not the same.

  36. I am a fan of your statistical analysis on this subject, Dalrock. Evidence: “Old Women Settle” dated 15 November 2018 at https://realitydoug.wordpress.com/2018/11/15/old-women-settle/. I am curious to see what the next rounds of statistics shows. In my analysis I expected the data to be ‘choppy’, which is to say women will adjust downward to ‘thirsty’ men. I think the percentage of US women never married is a better indicator. It is possible foreign men are picking up the slack. Conquerors are the sexy men.

    Which begs the question: How much longer can the marriage question matter with trend-making continuity? My over/under would be 8 years, a 2027 terminus. My predictions have been so wrong on what the domestic state of affairs will be in 5 or 10 years that I’m not so worried about what I think will happen. I’m more worried about what will actually happen and even more concerned with what I do before then (which ain’t looking good). Seize the day. There’s always a bad omen somewhere. INCEL forever! I wouldn’t marry a liberated 30-year-old if I were 100.

  37. Gunner Q says:

    TheTraveler @ 8:30 pm:
    “It’s not a contest–things are pretty rotten for everyone, including the demonic elites. But I can’t help but think that male X’ers had their parents’ Pre-Boomer rules changed on them in the middle of the game by the Boomers and their special snowflake offspring.”

    I hear ya. Somebody somewhere made a good comment about Keanu Reeves being the perfect symbol of Gen-X; youthful ignorance & trust in “Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure” unplugging in “The Matrix” and finally being a stone-hearted MGTOW in “John Wick”.

  38. JDG says:

    The women in question are whores. Women who sleep around are whores, and only a fool would marry a whore. I realize that I’m criticizing 89% or more of the prospects, but it is what it is. Tis better to starve than to eat manure.

  39. BillyS says:

    Good that he is covering such things, but Bill Maher is a hypocrite. His show was quite politically correct and attacked all the “right” people, in spite of its name.

  40. BillyS says:

    Frank K,

    They laid the groundwork for all this with their own progressive idiocy, which was very rampant at the times. Few really think through the consequences of what they pursue, especially in politics.

  41. gdgm+ says:

    Minor typo in the OP — “patientently” should be “patiently”. I really don’t INTEND to be pedantic about spelling, since Dalrock is writing good (if concerning) pieces!

    [D: Thanks!]

  42. Frank K says:

    Speaking of what was unthinkable not too many years ago: I was watching a bit of the Monday Night Sportsball when I was subjected to watching a commercial singing the praises of lesbianism. I rarely watch broadcast TV anymore, and this reminded me why. We truly live in a modern day Sodom. It made me think of Abraham pleading with the Lord to spare Sodom. We all do know what Sodom’s eventual fate was. Nothing less awaits our nation. I harbor little doubt that soon pedophilia will be shoved down our throats.

  43. Frank K says:

    Speaking of ‘broke men’, not to be forgotten is the fact that Income Tax and Spending flows are overwhelmingly tilted towards men being net payers and women being net recipients. 70-80% of income taxes are paid by men, but 70-80% of spending goes to women (that includes deficit spending net of taxes).

    Which is why they are suddenly concerned with men being underachievers. Of course, the PTB aren’t really going to do anything about that, except of course proclaim that women are the true victims.

  44. BillyS says:

    “Women hardest hit” will be appended to just about anything Frank!

  45. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Frank K, don’t forget New Orleans police officers wearing rainbow-themed “pride badges” for pride month.

  46. Spike says:

    This comes with another article, about how a barrister / attorney woman “married down” to a guy who was an electrician, and surprisingly, the marriage works!
    The woman cited “She has student debt. He does not. She works long hours. he does not…”
    I’m sure hubby just loves the idea that his prize catch literally looks down at him, using the phrase “married down”.
    What do we expect? After:
    -Affirmative action for women and minorities
    -Slanting of the education system
    -The bias of no-fault divorce and the Family Court
    -The mass manufacture of “dead beat dads”
    -An endless parade of stupid dad themes in commercials, sitcoms and movies.

    The surprise to me is that it has taken so long.

  47. potomacker says:

    But in the long run, isn’t it better all around that women determine that men have failed them BEFORE having deigned to marry them only to then opt to divorce them because they are failures for not having attained all the spoken and unspoken expectations?

  48. locustsplease says:

    Men dont make enough money to override the pair bonding women gave away in their teens and twenties. My ex wife and from what ive seen most are still romantically in love with their college boyfriends. This will override all logic. It is not reversable.

    So now you need what it would take to override that pair bonding. Which is gonna take 6′-4+ 6 pack and make sever hundred k per year. And then these selfish men are actually slaying tail well into their 50s and 60s.

    Why buy the cow when it gives no milk. Kicks bites and is gonna talk you into the ground until you want to then eventually do actually die.

    I suspect this article is really a diversion to women getting rejected post wall. Lamenting their loss of power. How ignorant can someone b to lament about loosing power you gave away.

  49. Byzantine says:

    Two things to add. First, If girls outnumber boys in colleges and universities about 60:40, this means 20% of the girls will not be able to marry even an equal. Their marriage prospects are very bleak. I suspects that it is girls from this 20% pool that form the core of feminists, SJW’s, lefties, progressives….a blue-haired nose ring college/university brigade in short. They subconsciously understand their predicament and start going crazy early on instead of waiting for The Wall and menopause in a dignified manner.
    Second, thanks to the internet,like-minded men now know that they are not alone in their Red Pill/MGTOW thinking. As internet is not going away any time soon, the number of men understanding true nature of women can only go up, not down.
    You all have a nice day.

  50. Novaseeker says:

    It’s not a contest–things are pretty rotten for everyone, including the demonic elites. But I can’t help but think that male X’ers had their parents’ Pre-Boomer rules changed on them in the middle of the game by the Boomers and their special snowflake offspring.

    And yes, I’m one of them. My work is valued highly but I’m expected to sit quietly in my corner, dead-ended, too old to start over but at the age when previous generations started getting the levers of power. Unless you commit to serve the Boomers and their progeny, and their dippy ideology, you’re going nowhere.

    This is true, but a significant part of it is the nature of Generation X. It has to do both with the size of gen X and the overall generational temperament.

    X is small, quite small, in comparison to both the Boomers and the Millenials. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/01/millennials-overtake-baby-boomers/ There are so many more boomers than Xers than X won’t even cross the line on the Boomers until 2028, when the oldest Xers are already going to be in their 60s! Today, in 2019, the Boomers + Millenials = 146m, compared to Xers ~66m. This is why X gets overlooked. It’s smaller than either the Boomers or the Millenials, and when the Boomers and Millenials get together, it’s really crushed by them. Marketers couldn’t care less about Gen X, to be honest, and I know this because I work for a company that is very active in tailoring its marketing to shifting demographics. There was a huge push several years ago to rejigger everything towards the millenials … there was no such push for Gen X in the period before that. That has to do, in part, with size.

    The other piece of the puzzle has to do with temperament. X is the latchkey generation. After the boomers, X tended in a different direction — more reticent, less pushy, more about survival and doing its own thing, not a protest generation or a crusader generation, but a more unassuming, self-focused, go-along-to-get-along generation. This is in stark, stark contrast to both the Boomers and the Millenials, each of which sees it as its birthright to remake the entire world, all of its systems, as it wishes. This idea never entered the mindstream of Gen X — again, in part because it didn’t have the demographic heft to do so, but also in part because its temperament was fundamentally different, and remains so. This is, in a way, a kind of generational flaw (I say that as an Xer myself), because in effect it makes our generation into everyone else’s bitch. The Boomers have always disliked us because they saw us as being too cynical, too self-focused, not socially engaged enough, etc. They raised a generation to dislike us as well — the millenials. And now we are being squeezed between the two behemoth generations, one of whom begat the other, who are at the same time pre-disposed to dislike us because they both have a markedly different generational temperament from ours. And it’s unlikely X can or will do anything in response because … we never do. It’s not how we roll. We look after our own, close the door, enter our own worlds, and that’s that.

    In terms of dating dynamics, a part of generation X did get whipsawed in a very real sense. X is people born from 65-80, and the folks born in 1965 had parents who were mostly born around 1940, if not earlier. By the time the earliest Gen X were entering the dating pool, it was the early 1980s. Their parents had been in the dating pool in the 1950s and early 1960s, pre-revolution. For the most part, the parents of Gen X did nothing at all to prepare their children for what was coming in the dating market, because that dating market was rather dissimilar in fundamental ways from the dating market when they were dating, just a few years earlier. The revolution happened in the middle, between the time their parents met and the time Gen X entered the dating market themselves. So mostly people were clueless, particularly the boys — because boys are generally more clueless than girls, number one, and because girls are also advantaged by the new market especially in the younger years. However, most of the first wave of Gen X still recovered and did marry in their 20s — it came after learning to navigate a relationship market entirely by themselves, however, with often uncomprehending, if not incredulous, parents unable to really offer any assistance that was of any use — it was simply beyond them. The younger X, born in say 1979, fared a bit better in their earlier years because their parents weren’t quite as clueless since the dating market of the mid 1990s was not quite as different from the one when the parents met in the mid 1970s (which was also post-revolution). The pace of change was accelerating, to be sure, but there were still more commonalities there. And very young Xs have an overlap of sorts with older millenials as well in terms of the generational temperament.

  51. Scott says:

    The boomers acted like that person who leaves one square on the toilet paper roll without changing it because technically it’s not empty.

    Only they did it with a whole society.

  52. Liz says:

    The boomers acted like that person who leaves one square on the toilet paper roll without changing it because technically it’s not empty.
    Only they did it with a whole society.

    Good analogy. 😆

  53. Scott says:

    The they wonder why Gen Xers, raised in lame blended step families with divorce all around, no culture, nothing worth fighting for are so cynical and disconnected from everything around us.

  54. Red Pill Christianity says:

    **Liz, as much as I dislike most of the Boomers, The Boomers were not all bad, of course. They did some great things for humanity, in terms of tech, medicine, and improving our standards of living. The problem is that the The Boomers that were in charge of our country raided its wealth and created a legal, political, and welfare system where they are the sole beneficiaries of. They were and still are, the most selfish generation in US history, bar none. No wonder they spearheaded the 1960s, radical feminism, abortion, emptying out the Social Security Trust Fund for LBJ’s “War On Poverty” and much more. They really wrecked the nation.

    Some even claim the Boomers are the worst generation alive: returnofkings.com/160656/7-reasons-why-boomers-are-the-worst-generation-alive

    Ps. I posted on the woman that was outed by my friend on the thread we were discussing the issue.

    **Scott, Gen X’ers are far more patriotic, far more connected, and are far more mentally and socially adept than the Millennials and Gen Z’s COMBINED.

    Yes, we (Gen X’ers) grew up at a time when the divorce revolution was at its highest peak. I recall almost 1/2 of the kids in my private school had divorced parents. It was a mess. No doubt about it.

    But despite the Divorce Revolution hitting us as kids all around us, we still grew up during a time when communication, dating, asking a girl out, going to dances, and living in the real world was very much a thing you did as a matter of course. It was a much healthier world. There were no iPhones, texting, Tinder, or a hook-up culture when I was growing up and I am not even close to 40.

    The 1980s and 1990s were a great time to be going to high school in middle America. Yes, we were “the latchkey generation” but we enjoyed real dating, real relationships, feminine women, healthy young men, and a decent economic period. It was not great or perfect, but it was a dang good ole’ time growing up in a pre-9/11 world.

    I can assure you most Millennial today would have given their arm for a chance to grow up in the much healthier period of the 1990s in a high school setting. These kids are inheriting a much poorer, much angrier, much more polarized country and are looking at college debt into the tens of thousands and compete for non-college jobs with unlimited supply of illegals working for a 1/3 of their wage. That is not even to talk about their complete socially-dysfunctional personal lives thanks to smartphones and tech that has isolated them, deceived them, and enslaved them.

    Gen X is much more connected, productive, and healthy when compared to the Millennials. Then Gen Z’s are looking even worse. Some would even say Gen X’er were America’s best generation since The Greatest Generation that won WWII.

    Great piece on topic: returnofkings.com/169859/5-reasons-why-generation-x-is-the-superior-generation

    Both mentioned pieces above do a great job discussion Gen X and Boomers in great context.

  55. Frank K says:

    Gen X is much more connected, productive, and healthy when compared to the Millennials.

    Most Millenials I meet are soy boys with receding hairlines.

  56. David 'The Diversity Mastermind' Lammey says:

    Women’s educational credentials is BS. W just do crappy divershitty courses & their swarthy rat profs give them awards BC they are much more gullible & conformist than m – the opposite of intelligent.

    Any good system would have higher IQ creative men on top. W are never academically intelligent.

  57. @Traveler: “Unless you commit to serve the Boomers and their progeny, and their dippy ideology, you’re going nowhere.” That advice 20 years ago would have literally saved my life. I am nowhere incarnate. I don’t like the selection forces in play, for obvious reasons.

  58. gh447 says:

    When looking for a sex partner, my advice to men is to bang all of them: the bad girls, the cool girls, the commitment-phobic girls, the crazy girls. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad girls sexy does not make them good wives.

  59. Anonymous Reader says:

    A cynical alternative: the signal is working as intended. Population replacement doesn’t just happen by itself. I

  60. Robert What? says:

    As I have mentioned before, young women are being raised in the new millennium. Young men are being raised as if it is still the 1950s. How long can this be sustained?

  61. thedeti says:

    Interesting discussion on generations by Nova and others.

    The men who created the manosphere are Gen X men, for the most part. Roissy, Roosh, Rollo, Pook, Zed, Welmer Price, et al – all Gen x. All men around my age. (I’m one of the older Xers.) It might well be that the manosphere is more or less a GenX creation.

    But, the manosphere is morphing into something quite different as more and more millenials come up. The fastest growing segment is MGTOW/incel and it is becoming more and more radicalized. It is moving further away from Game/self improvement/sex, and toward isolation/politicization/avoidance of women. Perhaps this has something to do with millenials, because that particular demographic is all about “quality of life,” immediate gratification, refusal to do or be anything that doesn’t result in immediate benefit, not taking direction, and not working hard. If it will not benefit them, right now, millenials won’t do it. If they will have to work for it down the road and a payoff might not be seen for a year or so, millenials won’t do it. If they have to do it in a way someone else wants, millenials won’t do it. They come to work at 8 and go home at 5 and Will. Not. Work. One. Minute. Longer.

    THat might have something to do with the shift in the manosphere of late.

  62. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti
    But, the manosphere is morphing into something quite different as more and more millenials come up

    That is a very interesting observation. It will require some thought for a while. Clearly reference experiences matter in how a man approaches the androsphere; is it a source of information and ideas, or is it a Old Boys Bar to sit around in and bitch ‘n whittle, is it a crying towel to perpetually wail about unfairness, or what? Men go through stages a lot like the Kubler-Ross sequence, to be sure, but — the early reference experiences matter.

    For example: good point about Rollo, Welmer, et al. being GenX. A lot of GenLatchkey learned to figure things out on their own from an early age, out of necessity. That’s one approach to the manosphere: “Show me tools. Give me true information, not lies”. Etc.

    Caveat: the Zed who used to comment at Spearhead, and who quite possibly was Zenpriest / Zed, did not write like GenX. He wrote like someone older; possibly Boomer, or maybe even older.

    Anonymous Age 60+ was clearly a remarkably perceptive Boomer, too bad he never created his own blog, but left his observations as comments on Spearhead and other places.

  63. Anon says:

    deti,

    The men who created the manosphere are Gen X men, for the most part. Roissy, Roosh, Rollo, Pook, Zed, Welmer Price, et al – all Gen x.

    Zed was definitely not Gen X. He was over 60 even then. He might be 70+ now.

  64. thedeti says:

    AnonReader:

    Good observations. I do agree that Zed and AnonAge 60+ were Boomers. Who was the guy who wrote at NoMaam? Rob Fedders? Another guy was Bonecrker. Yet another was Gantt from Ganttsquarry. They might also have been Boomers.

  65. thedeti says:

    Vox Day is a GenXer. But Matt Forney is a millenial. So is Blair Naso and many of the young turks at Return of Kings (RIP).

  66. vfm7916 says:

    All this is sound and fury without the lightning and the rain.

    So hoist up your back flag, and find a modern 6 (used to be a 4 back in the 80’s) as close to a debt free virgin without tattoos as you can, settle and marry. Bang out them kids, do one income, and have her homeschool. Make it clear from the start that’s what you’re going to do, and if she’s over 30 just say no.

    GenX would be a far more powerful voice if a certain group hadn’t aborted 35% of the age cohort. I was tallying up the mass genocides of the last century in a discussion with my wife this morning and it was Mao, Stalin, and Roe V. Wade in the top 3.

    Dalrock, this post could have used some balance from the blogger that coined the term “Men want debt-free virgins without tattoos”. I wouldn’t even take a wager on the respondents of the OP poll failing to meet all three of those tests, let alone 1.

  67. thedeti says:

    AnonReader:

    Clearly reference experiences matter in how a man approaches the androsphere; is it a source of information and ideas, or is it a Old Boys Bar to sit around in and bitch ‘n whittle, is it a crying towel to perpetually wail about unfairness, or what? Men go through stages a lot like the Kubler-Ross sequence, to be sure, but — the early reference experiences matter.

    For the most part, GenX approached the manosphere as a clearinghouse of info and ideas, cafeteria style. Take what you like and leave the rest, take what works and leave the rest. A place to swap ideas, compare notes, and get tips and tricks. “What I’ve got doesn’t work; I need to find something to make this work. I have a problem, I need a solution. This Red Pill stuff appears to be a good solution.” This is stuff you couldn’t find anywhere else, so come here and pick up what you need.

    Millenials and iGen appear to approach the manosphere as a community. This is partly the way they approach it, i guess, but there’s something else going on too. The information here is grossly lied about and mischaracterized in the wider media and world, and it is being driven further underground. These men need to be part of something, and are finding greater “meaning and purpose” here. Or, at least, that’s what it looks like to me, particularly with the incel/MGTOW contingent. There’s a large and growing number of men declaring MGTOW status because they’re incels. Their voices are drowning out the original MGTOWs like Captain Capitalism, Fidelbogen, Rob Fedders, etc. Only Cappy is still around, one of the OG MGTOWs.

    So it remains to be seen what effect the millenials will have.

  68. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti
    For the most part, GenX approached the manosphere as a clearinghouse of info and ideas, cafeteria style.

    GenLatchkey, making popcorn and connecting the VHS to the tv to watch a movie.

    Millenials and iGen appear to approach the manosphere as a community.

    So do a lot of Boomers, except they often won’t take advice. See Heartiste’s comment section the last few years…like a bar in a retirement village.

    This is partly the way they approach it, i guess, but there’s something else going on too. The information here is grossly lied about and mischaracterized in the wider media and world, and it is being driven further underground.

    It has been counter cultural from the start, which says more about the culture than about the Red Pill. But it’s true, obvious truths about men and women are becoming forbidden in the larger world.

    There’s a cross-generational cohort of men, the frivorced, and they matter quite a lot. It’s always encouraging to see some of those men show up in comments, because they bring real world experience into this corner of the net, and can offer knowledge to other men.

    Another part of the “signal” in the OP: the idea that a man is worthwhile as a human being. Women and men tend to objectify each other in different ways (success object vs. sex object) but the dehumanization of men is ugly and intensifying. Girls who are taught by action and word to regard a man as something more like a Prada purse or a vending machine are not really equipped to relate to an actual human who is different from them in many physical ways, starting with the brain.

  69. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    A new study is making the rounds that found a mismatch between the imaginary men unmarried women are planning on marrying, and the real life unmarried men available to these women.

    By the way, I meant to compliment this earlier. One sentence that accurately describes the fundamental problem, clearly and concisely.

  70. BillyS says:

    VFM,

    Many of those aborted would not have been conceived if not for the free availability of abortion. It is a flawed argument to ignore that aspect. (I know abortion is still murder, but it allows foolish behavior because it is a last “easy out” in the eyes of so many.)

    And many/most of us are not in the age range where your advice will work. Finding a community is a serious challenge today, especially in the real world.

    Deti,

    I am just at the tail end of the Boomers, depending on where you draw the line. I am not sure calling my a Boomer is completely accurate, as I tend more toward early Gen X stuff, though I also seek community far more than most, in spite of being a loner in many ways.

    That is the risk with such groupings. (Not your fault, just a general comment on your topic.)

  71. Wraithburn says:

    Boomers: I deserve it
    Gen-X: when do I get a turn?
    Millenials: I will never get a turn
    Gen-Z: Fuck that noise

  72. vfm7916 says:

    @BillyS

    45 million or any reasonable percentage thereof? Plus all the additional people born from those? No, abortion is not a factor in a woman’s willingness to have risky sex. Those who wanted one beforehand got them.

    The advice is not for you. You and I both had our time for marriage. You have my compassion on yours. This advice is for those young men who read this and don’t have families. Someone has to counteract the blackpill of MGTOW from destroying men’s lives just as feminism destroyed women and Western Civilization.

  73. TheTraveler says:

    @deti

    You are so right about Millennials being raised to hate X’ers.

    I was a military officer right when Millennials started coming on active duty as junior enlisted. Drunk on self-esteem, most of them shockingly lacked even the most basic skills. But boy, were they expert at ONE thing: self-esteem, and they deserved Gen X’er respect just for BEING. And the Boomer senior officers, turds all, reinforced this strongly.

    At one point, two different Boomer senior officers told me that my knowledge, experience–even my rank, which used to be sacrosanct–entitled me to ZERO deference (not respect–acknowledgment of seniority/authority) from the “smart, talented kids.” I would have to EARN their respect–jumping through all kinds of hoops to do so. They, on the other hand, were “entitled” to my deepest respect and deference…just because, and I was a defective leader if I didn’t acknowledge that false “fact.” The hatred was palpable, disconcerting, and venomous, but I sensed it wasn’t for me per se–it was for my age group.

    One Boomer admiral even told a group of junior officers that they (N/A for Boomer senior leaders like him, of course) should lead by asking the Millennials what they want–then give it to them.

    Boomers truly HATE X’ers. But then, Boomers hate everything, which is why they destroyed (and continue to do so) the most prosperous society ever. And you’re right–they trained Millennials (their kids) to hate us, too. I saw it in everyone from junior sailors to junior high kids.

    The 80s were fabulous. Optimism was everywhere, even struggling people had confidence that things would straighten out, and the pop music was light, cheerful, and even unselfconsciously silly. The Boomers HATED it–not enough Marxist angst and Social Justice. They made sure their kids wouldn’t live such “degenerate” lives devoid of important socialist meaning.

    As for being passive, I disagree. X’ers waited patiently for the Boomers to end their run, like previous generations did–but the Boomers will never yield. They expect Gen X to keep kowtowing to Boomers, and the Millennials they’re chosing to replace them. We X’ers will also be expected to subsidize the avaracious scumbag Boomers in a wealthy retirement and their work-shy Millenial kids (who are becoming our bosses–inexperienced, immature, pompously self-righteous and often marginally skilled SJWs or collaborators–with obscene rapidity). I will likely get carried out of a cube, feet first, with a self-important Millennial bosa clucking disgustedly at the trouble caused by a worksite death, from overtime (or get fired) at age 75 (many of us won’t be able to retire–thanks Obama–having burned up our retirement funds just trying to survive) to get the job done.

    I’ve been run out of a whole lot of social/political organizations, always by paranoid, selfish Boomers. And I’ve noticed that many organizations, business and otherwise, have Boomers at the very top, with too-young (often idiotic and incompetent) pet Millennial “fast track” types way overrepresented at the next level down.

    The bottom line is, American Boomers are likely the most hateful, irrational, venomously destructive social cohort in the entire history of civilization. What other group has wrought so much terrible damage to its civilization while selfishly feathering its own nest, all the while mendaciously virtue signaling in the most hypocritically self righteous manner imaginable. There will be Social Security for the Boomers, rest assured. For X’ers, likely nothing but work into old age, funding some new pyramid scheme for the Millennials.

    If it sounds like I’m bitter, I am. Hard work and achievement mean nothing for many ordinary, non-“connected” Gen X’ers. I followed the rules for the American Dream, but the Boomers and Millennials are saying, “You suck–nothing for you!” And because there’s so many of them, there is little I, almost 50 and just now realizing how horribly the deck is stacked against people like me, can do about it.

  74. Frank K says:

    I am just at the tail end of the Boomers, depending on where you draw the line. I am not sure calling my a Boomer is completely accurate.

    Same here. Arrived too late to get one of the sweet jobs where you retire young with a pension. Career wise I identify more with the Gen-X bunch: limited career advancement and always be ready to be laid off.

  75. Lost Patrol says:

    At first glance this might appear to be off topic, but things like this are part of the weakened signal I think.

    https://bmctoys.com/blogs/news

  76. thedeti says:

    Traveler

    I didn’t say the millenials hate Xers. I was the one who pointed out Xers’ and millenials’ different approaches to life, work and the manosphere. But I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.

  77. Opus says:

    We Boomers have a lot to answer for but my beef is with the Greatest Generation – almost all gone now – but who when I was growing up caused a lot of trouble for us then youngsters both intentionally and by default. This is not the place to go into all of it for to do so will be to Rant but Supply and Demand dictates that if you have an excess of something (young people) this will have consequences as much as will a shortage of the same commodity.

    Every generation has its problems and one cannot survive and thrive by reliving long dead battles. The past especially in an age of rapid technological change is indeed a different country.

  78. Frank K says:

    At first glance this might appear to be off topic, but things like this are part of the weakened signal I think.

    https://bmctoys.com/blogs/news

    How many sets of plastic army women do they realistically expect to sell?

    Maybe they should have one holding deployment orders in one hand, a pregnancy test test in the other, and a big Colgate smile on her face?

    How can you possibly have an effective army when a large number of soldiers can legally bail out of deployment?

  79. Nick M says:

    Very crunchy article about endless courtship!

    So, I Thought Hookup Culture Ended After College…

    http://theeverygirl.com/hookup-culture/

  80. Frank K says:

    Someone has to counteract the blackpill of MGTOW from destroying men’s lives

    And how exactly will they do that? By marrying a modern American slut who will frivorce them and destroy their lives?

  81. TheTraveler says:

    @deti

    I stand corrected. Must have mistaken you for someone else.

  82. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    TheTraveler: Boomers truly HATE X’ers. But then, Boomers hate everything, … The 80s were fabulous. Optimism was everywhere, even struggling people had confidence that things would straighten out, and the pop music was light, cheerful, and even unselfconsciously silly. The Boomers HATED it–not enough Marxist angst and Social Justice.

    Generalize much?

    I’m a Boomer, born in the early 1960s, and I don’t know what you’re talking about.

  83. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    At first glance this might appear to be off topic, but things like this are part of the weakened signal I think.

    Bestest part: those are WW II style figures.

    Retconning the past to control the future by blurring the present. Is this a Di$ney company?

  84. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    How many sets of plastic army women do they realistically expect to sell?

    Looks like a sort of “vanity press” creation. They don’ t have to break even, just make their statement. Plus it gives obnoxious feminists another way to screw around with the heads of little boys, so there’s a bonus.

    One could have fun with cognitive dissonance by shrieking in a 2nd stage feminist way about “war toyz!” while being triggered! by the way women are portrayed. There’s always something wrong to be triggered! about, y’know.

  85. TheTraveler says:

    @Opus

    I am in sympathy with your perspective. One theory (wish I could claim credit for it): the “Greatest” generation just let it happen, being indifferent.

    Having survived years of worldwide depression and war, the “GG” pursued prosperity with a vengeance–insofar as they could afford it, their kids lacked for nothing and became spoiled. This led to predictable bad behavior, which Greatest Gen parents ignored–it probably seemed trivial after two decades of worrying about their next meal or collecting an Axis bullet. And so, Unchecked, many (not all, but enough) Boomer kids grew up as avaraciously materialist Marxist radicals.

  86. TheTraveler says:

    @RPL

    It is, of necessity, generalization. All social observations are.

    It’s based on observation of reality over the course of 3 decades and many organizations. There are exceptions–presumably, you’re one such–but I stand by my generalization. That said, not all Boomers are jerks, not all Gen X’ers are good people.

    Case in point: mentoring. In my 20s and 30s, it was nonexistent; far from being mentored, it was shocking to watch guys who looked like they were on the fast track to the top, being tossed like used Kleenex. But now that Millennials are up and coming, mentoring is back, in a big way, pushed hard by Boomer bosses.

  87. vfm7916 says:

    @Frank K

    Women are not evil. They are just women.

    How do young men avoid the blackpill of MGTOW? By understanding first that any serious practitioner of MGTOW fears women, desires power over them, and acts like a crab in a crab pot to any and all men who are doing better with women than they are. Their pain overcame their anger. They are no different than a militant feminist.

    After that, work on their Game. Work themselves up to Delta at a minimum. Be ruthlessly honest with themselves. Settle for a woman. A 5 or 6 now used to be a 4 a decade or two ago. Avoid obvious incompatibilities such as tattoos, debt, completely different nationalities, etc.

    I have other steps I’ve posted before, all quite possible. I would only add one other:
    Structure their lives to one income, see that she can fulfill her feminine drives with children, and help surround her with as many good influences as possible while omitting the bad ones.

  88. Anonymous Reader says:

    Wait, I just realized one potential market for girly toy soldiers: DODO’s would buy them for their tomboy(s) with great glee.

  89. TheTraveler says:

    @AR

    Regarding dehumanization of men, there was an blatantly ugly feminist offensive 10 to 15 years ago: children’s T-shirts with things like, “Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them.” The Smart People put down detractors as “humorless.”

  90. Frank K says:

    Women are not evil. They are just women.

    They might not be “evil”, but that doesn’t mean that what passes for marriage these days isn’t a raw deal for men. Your solution is basically to tell any guy who won’t marry a modern American woman that he’s a loser and that he needs to man up and marry a fat, ugly slut.

  91. Liz says:

    Bestest part: those are WW II style figures.
    The Italians did bring a traveling brothel with them in North Africa at the time.

  92. TheOtherScott says:

    OT but you know how it is…
    https://nypost.com/2019/09/06/broke-men-are-hurting-american-womens-marriage-prospects/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

    TLDR: Men are broke, alone, incarcerated and dead. Women hardest hit.

    The comments are priceless.

  93. John James R. says:

    @vfm,

    Settle for a woman who would’ve been a 4 in the 90’s, then work so hard that she doesn’t have to work, while paying for children (plural). So get up around 120k a year all so you can come home to that smoking 4. . On top of the 60-70 hour work week, I must also very carefully manage the life of this 4 to avoid frivorce. (Divorce from a 4 ruins your life just as much as divorce from a 9, not sure why a guy should risk ruination from a 4.) Where do I sign up for this incredible deal? It really sounds like it caters to my male imperatives. I’m in!

  94. Asaph says:

    Correction:
    They have too much, of all the wrong things, to bring to the marriage bargain

  95. Frank K says:

    Structure their lives to one income, see that she can fulfill her feminine drives with children, and help surround her with as many good influences as possible while omitting the bad ones.

    Sounds good on paper. Whether she will agree to that is another matter.

    It also puts the guy at a horrible disadvantage when she frivorces him. If she has a good paying job, he’ll probably only have to pay child support when she kicks him out, as opposed to a huge alimony check as well.

    This isn’t about “MGTOW”. This is about young men steadily coming to the conclusion that getting married and having kids has become a very financially risky proposition under our current system, where he has basically zero rights but plenty of re$pon$ibilitie$, with a jail cell awaiting him should he fail to fulfill them. What is mind boggling is that any men are still getting married.

  96. vandicus says:

    Fast tracking of some young people for upper management is a long-standing corporate thing, not really related to the generations at play. If you’re not the golden boy for management, you’re nothing.

    Millennial employment prospects are not what would be characterized as good. Economically the generation lags. So whatever support they’re receiving from Boomers, it can’t be much. Terrible advice/guidance too, considering the college debt.

  97. feeriker says:

    Red Pill Latecomer says:
    September 10, 2019 at 5:29 pm

    Ditto. We’re in the same age cohort.

    It infuriates me to no end to be lumped in with the inappropriately-named “Greatest Generation’s” post-war crop of bastards. I’ve never understood how the hell one “generation” could be said to span two freaking decades – far longer than any other generation with a label. I have NOTHING WHATSOEVER in common with anybody born in 1946!

  98. Gunner Q says:

    Red Pill Latecomer @ 12:53 am:
    “Frank K, don’t forget New Orleans police officers wearing rainbow-themed “pride badges” for pride month.”

    Police wore rainbows for pride month to apologize for the Stonewall Uprising 50 years ago. A history for the interested:

    https://gunnerq.com/2019/07/17/choose-the-form-of-the-destructor-thirteen/

    TheTraveler @ 6:01 pm:
    “Case in point: mentoring. In my 20s and 30s, it was nonexistent; far from being mentored, it was shocking to watch guys who looked like they were on the fast track to the top, being tossed like used Kleenex. But now that Millennials are up and coming, mentoring is back, in a big way, pushed hard by Boomer bosses.”

    That explains a lot of Boomer frustration with mentoring wimminz. “Don’t they realize, we’re the good guys! It’s the OTHER white men who are the bad guys!”

    vfm7916 @ 6:08 pm:
    “How do young men avoid the blackpill of MGTOW?”

    By not believing what their eyes see, not hearing what their older peers say and being such worthless human beings in general that their only possible achievement in life is impregnating any female that holds still long enough. Hopefully the spawn won’t eat too much glue in childhood to be used as cannon fodder by Elites who self-identify as cruelty artists.

    Seriously, 7916, you’d rather be known as a number bestowed by a guy you’ve never met and doesn’t care about you than have an online identity of your own making. That’s sad, man. No other way to put it.

  99. BillyS says:

    VFM,

    45 million or any reasonable percentage thereof? Plus all the additional people born from those? No, abortion is not a factor in a woman’s willingness to have risky sex. Those who wanted one beforehand got them.

    Yes, it is a lot of murder.

    Keep in mind that the population is 327.2 million according to a recent Google search. That means it is not as high a percentage as it may seem. It is being used as birth control and that means many of the conceptions that drove it would not have happened if it was not there as a backstop.

    It is certainly possible that some of them would have been lives, but more thought needs to be given to how many before it is used as a “bunch of people missing” argument.

  100. Lost Patrol says:

    AR

    One could have fun with cognitive dissonance by shrieking in a 2nd stage feminist way about “war toyz!” while being triggered! by the way women are portrayed.

    That’s an interesting angle. I’ve been told that we specifically want women running things because lacking toxic masculinity they will be more inclined to make peace break out all over the place and get along better with various global neighbors. Intentionally portraying them as no better than the war mongering men does have a kind of disconnect with that concept.

    On the other hand I’ve also been told that women can, and if pressed will most assuredly will rip your guts out so they can serve their country equal to the men or whatever. These woman war figures are dressed like men and striking poses just like a person would if they were there to kill you. I suppose they could be aiming just to wound, but the one throwing the grenade cannot hope to be so discerning about it. (Check the sidebar for additional poses to include sighting in with the dreaded “AR” – no offense- style weapons).

  101. Gunner Q says:

    Lost Patrol @ 4:50 pm:
    “At first glance this might appear to be off topic, but things like this are part of the weakened signal I think.”

    Not weakened signal. A 6-year-old girl wanted female army soldiers and the company said yes.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28941840/plastic-army-women/

    According to the company blog, the Scranton, Pennsylvania-based toy company received a query from U.S. Navy veterans asking if there were any female soldiers. This was followed by a letter from a six-year-old girl who was also looking for female green army men. The company, recognizing the expanded role of women in the U.S. Army, began to explore the idea.

    Cucks can’t say no to women.

  102. TheTraveler says:

    @vandicus

    You’re correct, there’s a significant Millennial dichotomy. An odd disconnect.

    However, those with career jobs in relatively stable organizations tend to be heavily favored over more experienced, competent people. I’ve seen it in numerous places.

  103. BillyS says:

    Vandicus,

    Then lots of Gen Xers would be in management if things were just repeating the past. That does not appear to be the case overall.

    VFM,

    I would say you are starting to sound like a concern troll.

    I believe in some game elements, but they are not a firm solution. You fail to see the real problem in your ultimately naive thinking. I am not sure what I would advise a young man to do today, but I do not have to do that. It is far more dangerous than your Pollyanna proclamations imply. You may think you are being realistic, but part of the black pill must be put forth.

    And falsely claiming that all MGTOW are really afraid of women is idiotic. When did you become a mind reader of millions?

    As Jesus said, some are born MGTOW, some are forced into MGTOW by men and others choose MGTOW to better serve God’s Kingdom. (A bit of paraphrasing, but the principle applies far too well, whatever others may claim.)

    Nothing Scriptural commands a man to marry today. It would have great value, but is extremely dangerous without any supporting organizations. How about holding some Christian leaders accountable for their undermining role? Oh yeah, not time to write that when you are undermining men instead!

  104. BillyS says:

    Those figures have virtually no female chest parts. I suppose that is likely an intentional part of trying to go away from “Barbie” but how female are they really. Perhaps this is the “men in drag” outfit instead!

  105. 7817 says:

    For the most part, GenX approached the manosphere as a clearinghouse of info and ideas, cafeteria style. Take what you like and leave the rest, take what works and leave the rest. A place to swap ideas, compare notes, and get tips and tricks. “What I’ve got doesn’t work; I need to find something to make this work. I have a problem, I need a solution. This Red Pill stuff appears to be a good solution.” This is stuff you couldn’t find anywhere else, so come here and pick up what you need.

    This is exactly right on. I’m gen x and when I found the manosphere I had a huge sense of relief. Finally things made sense. Not all of it did, but that stuff made a good foil to figure out the truth.

    Right on Deti, great insights on the generational divide.

  106. 7817 says:

    Vfm, that’s good stuff.

    For a young man, I would add that you have to fear and love God more than your wife. Live as serving God first. He commands us to take care of our families but not to worship them

  107. PokeSalad says:

    How many sets of plastic army women do they realistically expect to sell?

    Glenn Reynolds brought up an excellent point: Wouldn’t it be much easier to just say that this % of men toy soldiers identify as women?

  108. AC says:

    People born in the early 60’s are not boomers. At least not in terms of how they look at life. Read the books by Strauss and Howe (Generations, The Fourth Turning. Dated as they are now). They are still enlightening in terms of how they describe generational dynamics. Gen X’ers still have a part to play. If only to clean up the mess left by Boomers.

  109. Red Pill Christianity says:

    TheDeti, that was a brilliant observation!! *claps hands* I did not realize just how much the Gen X has risen up to create the ManoSphere, Game, and conceptualize the need to take the Red Pill and get to work on self-improvement.

    It should not surprise anyone. If you are a Gen X’er like myself who grew up outside the American coastal cities in the West or in the northeast, you experienced an America that was a pretty good place to grow up in. And to go to high school and meet quality girls.

    That is despite the nationwide divorce epidemic. The 1990s and early 2000s were a time when the “Christian Right” (as our enemies called us back then) were on the march. Churches were encouraging young couples to stay virgin and marry young (this is who you ended up with books that way over-reacted like “I kissed dating goodbye”, for instance). Churches had a “freak out” after the disastrous 1960s and 1970s. While the 80s had a lot of “materialistic culture” and cultural corruption (mainly due to rocker culture), the 1980s were also a time of great hope and recovery for America. Tech was growing, but not yet enough to create poisonous things like FB and InstaGram or to create a generation of zombies. The economy was on rebound. We pushed them and helped topple the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall came down. Our culture

    Think about the 1980s movies: Karate Kid where a loser kind of kid that was being bullied (raised by a single mom) learns Karate by befriending a Japanese master fighter and becomes into a successful athlete with a girlfriend. Ghostbusters, where 4 unemployed discredited professors discover a way to fight ghosts and save NYC, despite the EPA trying to take them down. The Lost Boys where young kids take out a vampire coven and save their town (without help from cops, govt, etc). Red Dawn, where self-reliant CO high school kids start an insurgence to fight against the Soviets and Cubans who have invaded their town. Star Wars where a hodge-podge band of rebels work over the years to topple a tyrannical evil empire and restore freedom and hope to the galaxy. They were inspiring and creative movies. The message was positive. Many movies derived from Christian concepts as well (The Force… T2 Judgment Day….)

    And the coolest music, most songs are still awesome today. There were tons of awesome things about the 1980s. The 1990s were great too, I went high school in mid 1990s and it was absolutely awesome time to be a teen in America. I think after 2004, that is when we saw things take a drastic turn for the worse… the Left went crazy after that and it has been one disaster after another for the country, culturally, politically, and economically, save the last 2 years.

    Thing is…. ANYTHING was possible back in the 1980s and even in the 90s. That is the mindset Gen X’ers grew up in. It should be no surprise that Gen X’ers would rise up against the tide of 3rd-4th wave FemiNazism, since we knew life was different and was much better before.

    Remember that self-improvement books were very popular in the 1980s and 1990s. The mindset of getting better at stuff was very prevalent. That is why Gen X’ers would conceptualize and spread Game and share techniques and strategies online. It is a lot about self-improvement.

    I cannot give enough credit to, in this order, to Roosh, Heartiste/Roissy, Dalrock, and Rollo for putting the pieces together for me. I saw the cultural degeneration building up, I kept changing strategies to counter it, but I could not piece the whole thing together in this complex maze they created for us.

    These guys just handed me the glass of water so the Red Pill could go down all the way. Reading about the Red Pill and Game was a true epiphany moment for me. Everything made sense. I made adjustments and succeeded beyond expectations. I cannot thank these Gen X guys enough.

    It all makes logical sense, now that you pointed out that Gen X’ers made up the core of the ManoSphere, Red Pill and Game. 🙂 Great point thedeti!

  110. Asaph says:

    If a time machine that can show aspects of the modern world to people of the past, the allied powers wouldn’t have won ww2

  111. Spike says:

    gh447 says:September 10, 2019 at 12:38 pm
    ”When looking for a sex partner, my advice to men is to bang all of them: the bad girls, the cool girls, the commitment-phobic girls, the crazy girls. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad girls sexy does not make them good wives”.

    -Spot on. Sounds selfish when the sexes are reversed, doesn’t it?

  112. feministhater says:

    LOL Vfm, fucking great stuff. Marrying a 4 and hoping for the best and working your ass off whilst she sits at home and plans..

    You have no solutions. You cannot counter the so called ‘black pill’ with nonsense. You have to be able to show men reasonable and worthwhile goals. Marrying a fucking 4 and working your arse off to keep her is not one of those.

    The risks are still there, your ‘solution’ does not diminish them, a 4 is as likely as an 8 to divorce you and take half your shit and your children and destroy your life.

    You are just asking men to serious settle hard for ugly women and to waste away his life for her and her family.. whilst having to game a fucking 4 just so the she doesn’t divorce him. Way to go!

  113. Red Pill Christianity says:

    **BillyS says: As Jesus said, some are born MGTOW, some are forced into MGTOW by men and others choose MGTOW to better serve God’s Kingdom. (A bit of paraphrasing, but the principle applies far too well, whatever others may claim.) Nothing Scriptural commands a man to marry today. It would have great value, but is extremely dangerous without any supporting organizations. How about holding some Christian leaders accountable for their undermining role?

    BillyS, that is absolutely true! Some men will simply not marry, either because they should not (i.e. are players or truly unsuited for married life) or because that is not in the God’s Plan for them (i.e. they are meant to invent something great or focus on something great or whatever).

    The problem, as you correctly point out, is that Christian leaders have cucked many Christian good, hardworking men who ARE suitable for marriage and kids from marrying because they taught feminism in church. Along with secular feminism, “Christian” feminism has ruined a source of decent women for everyone else.

    The thing is if men were to seek out a “basic Christian” woman for himself today, his pickings are quite slim as well. The supply of quality guys far, and I mean far outweight the supply of quality Christian young women. This is not even in dispute anymore, just check any Christian groups these days, it is not even close.

    **Gunner Q says: Cucks can’t say no to women.

    ^^ True words!! Saying “no” to women piss them off, they throw tantrums, but in my experience, their tantrums and dirty looks do not mean they won’t like it deep inside and does not mean they will not bang you. Women NEED to be kept in check by men, or they make bad decisions one after another until we have a bunch of Miley Cyruses walking around. That is why in weddings, her father passes his daughter onto her husband. It is a transfer of responsibility to keep her safe, protected, and in-check from ruining herself.

    Saying “no” to women and holding frame when they balk at you is a sign of an Alpha and it acts as a lubricating agent for women.

    ** TheOtherScott says: TLDR: Men are broke, alone, incarcerated and dead. Women hardest hit.
    The comments are priceless.

    Scott, that is always the case. Reminds of me of my “favorite” Hillary quotes:

    “Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.” – Hillary Rodham Clinton

    (Translation: men are sent to fight dumb wars by feminists and globalists like Hillary, die, and women do not get their beat of burden to get money from anymore)
    **gh447 says: When looking for a sex partner, my advice to men is to bang all of them: the bad girls, the cool girls, the commitment-phobic girls, the crazy girls. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad girls sexy does not make them good wives.

    Thank you for reverse-engineering that Sheryl Sandberg quote. It is about time it was done! 🙂

    Now wait for the harpies to come out swinging at you. “How shocking and sexist that sounds!”. LOL

  114. Red Pill Christianity says:

    ** Frank K says: Women are not evil. They are just women. They might not be “evil”, but that doesn’t mean that what passes for marriage these days isn’t a raw deal for men.

    All above ^^ statements are correct. But do you all remember this? LOL

    That is a joke, of course. I do NOT believe women are evil. They are a product of their environment. I can give you a real-life example.

    Take 3 types of women are all of same type of ancestry who live in the same region of the world, for example. Ukrainians have Scandinavian (Rusyn) ancestry and so are the Lithuanians.

    You go to Norway, Ukraine, and Lithuania, all 3 countries have women who are similar in nature: fair skinned, straight natural hair, blue eyes, fair hair, etc etc. All 3 countries are in Europe, not too far from each other.

    Then compare how all 3 grow up.

    The Norwegian women are radical feminists and they grow up in a radicalized society that is catered to them. Obesity is growing there in leaps and bounds. The women are combative and they LOVE Beta men they can control, cheat on, and boss around. They dress terribly and are often out without make-up and hair up in a bun. They live in a consequence-free world, there are few societal ideas of “right and wrong”, “morals” are highly subjective in Norway. The police in Norway enforce laws unfairly against men and men work to finance a welfare state for the benefit of their women. So wh0ring and getting knocked up = no consequences for the woman, taxpaying men will pay the bills anyway (abortion or welfare for life for her and her kid).

    The Ukrainian women grow up in a harsh environment. Their country is poor and they have a more “survivalist” mindset, especially given their history with Holodomor and Soviet abuse for decades. There is no welfare system at all, so if they screw up and get drunk and knocked up by some dude, they will suffer CONSEQUENCES (a word that barely exists for women in Anglo countries anymore). So Ukrainian women HAVE TO improve themselves and look good to land a good man with a good job so their lives get better and easier. They cannot wh0re around too much and waste their youth and beauty because, guess what? The dudes have a lot of hot women to choose from and they are not gonna wife up a used-up sloot. So the girls in Ukraine have to be feminine, thin, have home-making skills, be nice with their man, have long hair, dress feminine, etc.

    The Lithuanian women are in between Ukrainians and Norwegians. Their country used to be more traditional, but it has been corrupted by the EU’s rules and educational systems, so the trend is for them to continue their decline into Western European standards of feminism, obesity and b!tching. Still, you go to Lithuania today and you still meet pretty girls with long hair in skirts, but from what I have read, they lack Ukrainian homemaking skills. Welfare does exist and there is a small welfare system, but their greatest asset is having an EU passport, so they can leave for welfare-rich countries in Scandinavia or UK. But they are kind in between Norwegians and Ukrainians, not as bad as Norwegian women and not as good as Ukrainian women.

    Clearly, the environment dictates a woman’s behavior more than anything. Roosh wrote about this at length, in one of his most notable quotes “women are like water, they take the shape of the container they are put in”. (https://www.rooshv.com/the-true-nature-of-women)

    Bottom line: women are by-products of their environment. As long as American men continue to bail them out with later-in-life-marriages and Betas caring for kids that are not his, allowing themselves to be divorce-raped, and continue to marry, working hard to pay taxes, etc, our women will continue to live off that system. Because… Why not?

    **John James R. says: Divorce from a 4 ruins your life just as much as divorce from a 9, not sure why a guy should risk ruination from a 4. Where do I sign up for this incredible deal? It really sounds like it caters to my male imperatives. I’m in!

    LOL…. John, whomever thinks it is “easier to keep a 4 than a 6” in America today does NOT understand the delusional nature of the modern woman, raised in a gynocentric culture with limitless feminist privileges and benefits. LOL

    Female hypergamy does not work like this. Unless the 4 is self-aware of her rating and is truly appreciate of her man, she will NOT be easier to manage and stay married to than the 6. Why? Because in her hypergamous mind, she is constantly thinking “is this guy the best I can do?” YOLO (You Only Live Once) and FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) are driving ideologies running in their mind 24/7.

    If the 4 is self-aware and reasonable, yes, she would be easier to keep than a 6 who is also self-aware (realistic about her own value in the SVM). If the 4 is not self-aware and the 6 is self-aware, the 6 would be easier to keep than the delusional 4. As long as a woman is self-aware of her value vs her husband’s value, a marriage is doable if the husband is about +1 to +3 on her. If husband is below her, that marriage can last, but he will have to pull out some serious Game. Relationships where there is more than 2-point difference between the man and the woman (either way) are highly unstable.

    But still, the problem is, most women today ARE delusional because of the constant flow of cell phone app validation they get. Likes on her bikini photos IG. Swipe rights by loser guys on Tinder. Friend requests on FB. It does not end. There are thirsty loser Betas and Gammas out there by the millions to keep the delusion going.

    Worst yet, some of the ugliest women I have known have some of the most feminist mentality and think they are ENTITLED to a 10-looking man, rich, over 6’2″, and all. lol They never find or are even to speak to such a man, so they burn with rage. How can they not land that man they oh, so DESERVE! 😀

    There was a time when marrying a woman who was -2 her man’s value in appearance/finance was good enough for a woman to marry and stay married to, since she is “marrying up” a man who is 2 points better than her in value.

    But today, she is constantly reminded of what she is “missing out” out. It is on Oprah, on magazines, on her “friend’s” photos on FB and IG, comparing to her co-workers and friends, and so forth. Her dissatisfaction will never be satiated, except if the man keeps up his Game during the marriage and is at least a “soft-Alpha” to keep her in check and under his leadership.

    The man has to deploy Game strategies, at least periodically to keep his woman stable and to stay. That means MORE WORK for the man! The whole point of getting married is to relax your Game down a bit…. but that does not work in America anymore.

    Anything short of running Game during your marriage periodically is a divorce waiting to happen! Hypergamy is fine before marriage, so a woman can seek out the best man she can get. That is fine. The problem is that Hypergamy today continues during a marriage, because divorce for women is a reward chest of goodies.

    That is the catch. Marriage is no longer final and for life. When marriage was for life and divorce was very hard to get, a woman would marry and stay married and hypergamy stopped at the altar. Once hypergamy is allowed to flourish during a marriage, it is a deathblow to marriage, sanity, and your future. So no, marrying a 4 is not necessarily easier than marrying a 6 or even a 9.

    It all depends on the individual woman. Every woman is different in some ways, even if they generally think and act according to the societies they live in.

  115. Red Pill Christianity says:

    America in 2019 and beyond:

    The hypergamy never ends.

  116. Oscar says:

    Off Topic: Here I explain why we should celebrate the 12th of September with coffee and croissants.

    https://snowgoosechronicles.blogspot.com/2019/09/sep-11th-cavalry-coffee-and-croissants.html

    Hint:

  117. Lost Patrol says:

    Gunner Q

    Not weakened signal. A 6-year-old girl wanted female army soldiers and the company said yes.

    Yes, and that is part of how the signal keeps getting weaker. The ‘small girl moves mountains’ effect.

    Practically speaking it’s what you said, and we’ve seen that companies will forego near term profit in the interest of demonstrating wokeness (which they expect to translate into longer term profit).

    More broadly this kind of activity forms part of the package deal to show and tell boys/young men that they occupy no special place in society. That women can fill all the gaps, to include protecting us in the event of war. It’s one more thing that weakens the signal that the effort is worth it. Any honor or respect that may have accrued to men is for women too, etc. Is the war toy company thinking of it in this way? Motive doesn’t matter. The message is sent. The effect lingers.

    Either way, young men are slowly starting to respond to the messages we are collectively shouting at them, and we should expect this trend to increase over time.

  118. vandicus says:

    Billy S
    Then lots of Gen Xers would be in management if things were just repeating the past. That does not appear to be the case overall.

    Largely a byproduct of Boomers not retiring I think. I certainly haven’t noticed Millennials in top executive spots, mostly still seems to be Boomers or Gen X.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-income-millennial-gen-x-baby-boomers-every-state-us-2018-7

    Going by this it looks like Generation X tends to be within 10% of the Boomers, which makes sense if Boomers have peaked and Generation X is slowly replacing them.

    https://www.ddiworld.com/glf2018/generation-x-leaders

    According to this source Generation X now holds the majority of leadership positions, which I would guess is lower proportional to such changes in the past but would match the case of Boomers retiring later than prior generations.

  119. Otto says:

    OT: Jarrid Wilson, a pastor at a mega-church (8th largest in USA) and author of multiple Christian books, committed suicide.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2019/september/pastor-dies-by-suicide-three-things-we-all-need-to-know.html

    I’m not sure how this fits in with the recent spate of mega-pastors losing their religion, but it’s not a positive for mega-church Christianity.

  120. Asaph says:

    You have said nothing useful nor original.
    Also, incel =/= MGTOW

  121. Asaph says:

    I don’t think vfm has hear of the 49ers. 4s who think they are 9s.

  122. John James R says:

    The only thing wrong with that superman cartoon is that the woman has a perfect body. Give her three stomach rolls and some inane quote tattoed onto her arm and short “I don’t have to be pretty” hair and then the image depicts reality. Leave superman as is.

  123. John James R says:

    Random Observant Guy; “Man, the way things are for young men these days, I don’t blame them for being pessimistic. I can’t blame them for trying to protect themselves and try to preserve at least some of their natural imperatives. But with all that’s coming down on them, a lot are going ‘black pill.’ I can’t blame them, but is there anything we can do to help them?”

    VFM Grand Wizard of Tradcons; “We should command them to sacrifice even more for even less.”

    R.O.G; “So, total sacrifice of their life for absolutely no reward, while running decades long risk of ruination?”

    Tradcons; “Yes. That’s the answer.”

  124. JB Harshaw says:

    [blockquote]“Many young men today have little to bring to the marriage bargain, especially as young women’s educational levels on average now exceed their male suitors’,” Lichter says.[/blockquote]

    I’m in agreement with Anon on this… as he says the “sheer breathtaking DELUSION inherent to this sentence” — though I would say it is not merely “delusion” but rank hypocrisy, and yes… it contains AT LEAST four blatant falsehoods.

    But nevermind all of that… note how it focuses on what young MEN “bring to the marriage ‘bargain'” — interesting that now apparently it’s a “bargain” arrangement (talk about inadvertently revealing the cold-hearted HYPERGAMY of women) — but says NOTHING about what young WOMEN “bring”…

    Perhaps because they don’t want to admit to the fact that the latter is (chiefly): (1) a used up series of holes (with amount of prior other men’s c*ck having to be measured in MILES); (2) probably one (or more) “abortions”… think about that, if she’ll KILL her own (first conceived, second conceived, etc) children, what will she be willing to do to “dear hubby” when the time comes? (3) A whole host of “baggage” from #1 & #2, including an array of psychological problems (does she REGRET aborting/killing her children? That’s BAD… does she NOT regret it? That’s even WORSE… then there is all the “alpha-widow” baggage; AND the desire to return to her previous “carousel” riding); not to mention a collection of STD’s (including many that CAUSE various cancers); and along with all of that, MASSIVE *ATTITUDE* problems: she doesn’t (probably CAN’T) actually “cook”; she’ll likely REFUSE to clean; probably DOESN’T really want to be bothered actually RAISING children (that’s what day-care & school is for, right?); and will DEMAND (special “Princess” that she is) that dear hubby not only be a 6-6-6 type of man, but that he ALSO be her hous-slave-boy, etc.

    I would argue that no SANE man — certainly no INTELLIGENT, INFORMED and SANE man — would want anything to do with such.

    Even without taking into account the [current year] societal “dump on men/toxic masculinity” nonsense… SOCIETY and women can — quite frankly — go F! themselves.

    MGTOW… what Adam *should* have done in the Garden.

  125. info says:

    @vfm7916

    “Women are not evil. They are just women. ”

    Women are fallen like the men. Sin corrupts their nature. There is much good true. But we shouldn’t discount sin.

    Women as images of God in their own way are accountable as are the sons of Adam.

  126. vfm7916 says:

    ahhh, the projection! TradconConcernTrollNoSolutions!

    And we have all the regular MGTOW posting their blackpill. Feministhater and Gunner Q, plus JBH rounding the despair out.

    All of you are mentally unable to accept any solution other than your chewed over vomit of MGTOW, because to accept any other premise means you fucked up your own life due to fear of what *could* happen to you. I don’t respond with Dialectic argument or solutions to you, Feministhater, because that’s what a cuckservative does. You are afraid. Fear drives you.

    I respect BillyS far more because he at least got married and had kids. That’s far more than the rest of you. That it did not work out for him earns my compassion, but none for the rest of you.

    Those claiming celibacy = MGTOW and equating it with being born that way, or comparing it in any way to a calling to the service of God are fucking serpents whispering. If a man used to be called to celibacy he went into the priesthood and served God. The comparison with MGTOW reminds me quite a bit of the Catholic pedophilia scandals, how homosexuality invaded the seminary, and the evil that followed. That’s a bad fucking comparison, and is a damn good reason never to go MGTOW.

    As a capstone to all the sneering for anyone following it all just know that there will never be a solution good enough for any MGTOW. They will never change. Change is pain. They fear pain. They equate women with pain. They fear women. If they were dropped into the Handmaid’s Tale, they would still never marry or have a woman, nor would a woman have them.

    Don’t take the blackpill of MGTOW.

    @JB Harshaw:

    “MGTOW… what Adam *should* have done in the Garden.”

    No. Their Own Way is not God’s Way.

  127. feministhater says:

    LOL vfm. No one asked for you compassion. No one asked for you solutions. No one cares what you think.

    We laugh at you because you have no fucking solutions to your problem but ‘get married to a fucking four’.

    That is all you can offer men and we laugh at your predicament because of it.

    The signal has hit home! Thank God! Finally! Don’t get married.

    You have nothing to bargain with, nothing to shame us with, nothing to do with all your hope.

  128. Oscar says:

    @ JB Harshaw

    MGTOW… what Adam *should* have done in the Garden.

    That makes no sense. Adam should have obeyed God. Obeying someone other than yourself is the exact opposite of going your own way.

    Adam should have gone God’s way.

    Instead, he chose to go Eve’s way. So, here we are.

  129. Jim says:

    feministhater says:
    September 11, 2019 at 2:05 am

    …a 4 is as likely as an 8 to divorce you and take half your shit and your children and destroy your life.

    From what I’ve seen it’s a lot more than half. When all is said and done many guys lose everything or most everything with no way of getting out.

  130. feministhater says:

    From what I’ve seen it’s a lot more than half. When all is said and done many guys lose everything or most everything with no way of getting out.

    Shhhh! Don’t tell the tradcons, they might just shame you for pointing it out. If you point it out, you’re full of despair and evil! You must disregard all that and go full tilt for a knockout 4, it’ll all work out… promise!

  131. 7817 says:

    Those claiming celibacy = MGTOW and equating it with being born that way, or comparing it in any way to a calling to the service of God are fucking serpents whispering…

    As a capstone to all the sneering for anyone following it all just know that there will never be a solution good enough for any MGTOW.

    Right on. Well stated.

    MGTOW is a movement of losers. It will never be high status, because by definition it’s undesirable wallowing in their low status, trying to redefine it as high status. It’s the same thing as fat women boasting that they are strong and independent and men are cowards for rejecting them. They are just as delusional.

  132. BillyS says:

    RPC,

    The thing is if men were to seek out a “basic Christian” woman for himself today, his pickings are quite slim as well. The supply of quality guys far, and I mean far outweight the supply of quality Christian young women. This is not even in dispute anymore, just check any Christian groups these days, it is not even close.

    The pickings are quite fat and definitely outweigh most men, in reality, but not in the way your point was made! (I couldn’t resist the joke, sorry!)

    I am foolish enough that I probably would get remarried for the right woman. I am highly unlikely to find her however so that is likely a moot point. The system and reality works against me.

  133. BillyS says:

    AC,

    People born in the early 60’s are not boomers. At least not in terms of how they look at life. Read the books by Strauss and Howe (Generations, The Fourth Turning. Dated as they are now). They are still enlightening in terms of how they describe generational dynamics. Gen X’ers still have a part to play. If only to clean up the mess left by Boomers.

    I would agree with that for myself at least. Some would say I am just a complaining Boomer, but I really don’t have any connection with them. Nor am I fully a GenX participant either.

    Groups may make some things easier, but it is hard to simplify it that much in these areas, especially at the edges.

  134. Ranger says:

    One sincere question to MGTOWs, from someone who is not an American and therefore may not realize that things are as awful as you say it is.

    Assuming that MGTOWs are basically correct, that the current state of marriage in the Anglo sphere is so awful that it is a terrible idea to try to start a family, but also assuming that being a Paterfamilias is one of the main possible joys of life, shouldn’t a MGTOW’s first order of business be, not to withdraw from society and play videogames, but to basically invest every inch of his willpower and of his time to try and change the legal situation?

  135. JB Harshaw says:

    @Frank K

    >How many sets of plastic army women do they realistically expect to sell?

    It says it’s a “Collector Series”… ergo probably not even “limited production” but rather 3D custom printed WHEN (and IF) someone orders them

  136. Joe2 says:

    @Ranger

    that the current state of marriage in the Anglo sphere is so awful that it is a terrible idea to try to start a family…shouldn’t a MGTOW’s first order of business be, not to withdraw from society and play videogames, but to basically invest every inch of his willpower and of his time to try and change the legal situation?

    The lack of participation in marriage could be the best and most effective way of changing the legal situation. Like any other product offered in society, if you don’t like the product just don’t buy it. The message will be heard.

  137. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    I am foolish enough that I probably would get remarried for the right woman. I am highly unlikely to find her however so that is likely a moot point.

    However were you to remarry, you would do so with a set of The Glasses that would help you to see clearly. Your expectations would be different, your skills for managing a woman improved.

  138. S. Chan says:

    “you will never again be surrounded by this concentration of men who are worthy of you”

    That was relevant when Susan Patton said it. It is much less relevant nowadays. Nowadays, most girls have ready access to large numbers of men whom they consider to be worthy of them: via Tinder, and dating apps generally.

  139. John James R says:

    Ranger,

    Disingenuous foreigner Trojan Horse. Good one.

    Tradcon ‘Man Up Harder!’ (MUH!) comes in the cleverest disguises these days. Trojan Horses everywhere.

    If you were actually being sincere then a MGTOW’s first order of business is to GO THEIR OWN WAY. If it makes the boomercuck tradcons jealous, then all the better. If it leaves our misandrist women in the lurch, then all the better. Why should men waste their lives scrapping and clawing to reinstitute marriage anyway? It was always a female’s institution. An inadvertent marriage strike will do much more than holding up signs in front of the family courts. Fighting and “clawing” for the right to bed down a 180 pounder 8 times a year while working 60-70 hours to provide everything to her seems like something I wouldn’t do if life lasted a thousand years. I certainly have no time for it in reality.

  140. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ranger
    Assuming that MGTOWs are basically correct, that the current state of marriage in the Anglo sphere is so awful that it is a terrible idea to try to start a family, but also assuming that being a Paterfamilias is one of the main possible joys of life, shouldn’t a MGTOW’s first order of business be, not to withdraw from society and play videogames, but to basically invest every inch of his willpower and of his time to try and change the legal situation?

    Nah, that’s the job the Men’s Rights Advocates (MRA’s) have taken up. Effecting the slightest change in the US system is a major effort. Just changing child custody after divorce / frivorce from de-facto “Mother” to “shared” has taken years in those states where it’s succeeded. Many of the injustices are deeply baked into the cake. “Family court” is not a court of law, it is a court of “equity”; the law is less important than “doing what’s fair”. The Duluth model makes almost anything a man might do in a moment of anger into “abuse” that can land him in a court of law.

    There is also the option of marrying a woman from outside the US, although that is not as easy as it once was thanks to feminists and their Traditional Conservative sock puppets. There’s also the real risk of bringing a foreign woman to the US expecting her not to acculturate – I personally know a man who did that, and he wound up in a very nasty frivorce.

    The MGTOW’s first order of business should be to go his own way. Apparently for some “their own way” consists of jamming up comments on pro-marriage sites with their endless despair and fear. That gets tedious, as does the blind “ManUP” replies by some other men.

    “There is no home! My fear is huge!” is really boring after multiple iterations, just as boring as “Man Up! Be a man! Do it my way!”. All in all, MGTOW’s and their opponentss are about as interesting as the endless intra-Christian wrangling of Catholic vs. Protestant..that is, not interesting in the least. Because in all those cases, no one is actually trying to solve a problem, it’s all about chest-beating and “MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY YOU ARE WRONG”.

    That’s not an argument. That’s a logical fallacy, “appeal to authority”, plus a challenge to a fight. Men don’t respond well to that, no matter who they are.

    I once read a book that suggested men should treat others as they wish to be treated….doesn’t seem to be very popular, though.

  141. BillyS says:

    You are a young idiot 7817.

    MGTOW is a movement of losers. It will never be high status, because by definition it’s undesirable wallowing in their low status, trying to redefine it as high status. It’s the same thing as fat women boasting that they are strong and independent and men are cowards for rejecting them. They are just as delusional.

    Not only are you and VFM mindreaders, you know know the looks, profile, etc. of all men not engaging with women.

    A neighbor of mind is quite attractive on the outside. He has a good well-paying job, a nice car, nice 3 bedroom house he takes reasonable care of, etc. He is a “loser” because he hasn’t married up a modern ho?

    I haven’t spoken with him much, but he is not your idiotic profile of MGTOW and yet he is living that way (whether he calls it MGTOW or not). Another man I know is in his 40s and remains single with no prospects. It wasn’t his plan, but no women were available for him. Yet he is evil or whatever bad names you want to call him because you are so wonderful?

    Give it a rest! You think just as little as the progressive leftists you would claim to oppose (I assume). You would never say that those who disengage from mainstream media are because that is the only way to drive them to change. Yet you do this for ALL modern males. Think a bit more if your brain has not completely left.

  142. BillyS says:

    AR,

    However were you to remarry, you would do so with a set of The Glasses that would help you to see clearly. Your expectations would be different, your skills for managing a woman improved.

    I would hope so, but I suspect I am just as much an idiot in some ways in this area as I have always been.

    God was right that it is not good for man to be alone, but the risks of not being that are incredibly high today as well. Especially for those of us who grew up with this kind of foolishness woven into things, even though it was less hidden.

  143. Frank K says:

    The lack of participation in marriage could be the best and most effective way of changing the legal situation. Like any other product offered in society, if you don’t like the product just don’t buy it. The message will be heard.

    Very true, but it will require a great deal of patience. After all, Chrysler is still around selling cars and Ford’s credit rating was just downgraded to junk bond status. AMC did go bust, but part of it survives in Chrysler (the Jeep brand).

    We do live in the age of “too big to fail”, which is in large part why firms like GM and Chrysler still exist. They won’t last forever, but they will probably still be around when my own number is up. I suspect that the Duluth model and other anti-family and misandrist laws will be the law of the land for many decades because they too will be treated as “too big to fail” as .gov will prop it up with everything it can, until it can no longer do so. Its end will come suddenly.

  144. Frank K says:

    I haven’t spoken with him much, but he is not your idiotic profile of MGTOW and yet he is living that way (whether he calls it MGTOW or not).

    It is my understanding that MGTOW isn’t a movement with leaders (though some men like to try and pass themselves off as such), but rather a label that can be applied to a very diverse group of men, many who have no idea that they are “MGTOW”. Some are the loud ones you see on comment boards. Others consider themselves “red pill” and have decided to not pursue marriage or children. Others are simply unwilling to lower their standards and “do as they’re told” and refuse to marry a slut, no matter how much Pastor Bob admonishes men to marry single, never wed mothers, who are described as prizes to be won.

  145. Frank K says:

    I’m telling women avoid wasting time with the pigs for the sake of a little sausage

    Unfortunately, the pigs have the best “sausage”, which the girls crave. And all disincentives from partaking have been removed. Dear Abby approves, parents are silent as their daughters ride the carousel (some even approve) and even Pastor Bob gives them a pass.

    Have one or more illegitimate children? No problem, as long as you’re halfway good looking and willing to put out, there will be a beta chump willing to pay your bills and solve your problems. He’ll even make school lunches for your kids (real life story) while you sleep in. If you really play your cards right, he’ll even marry you and maybe even legally adopt your kids (I’ve seen this happen far too many times).

  146. Jim says:

    The MGTOW’s first order of business should be to go his own way. Apparently for some “their own way” consists of jamming up comments on pro-marriage sites with their endless despair and fear. That gets tedious, as does the blind “ManUP” replies by some other men.

    Do you people really have no ability to comprehend the English language or are you just lying? In you’re view MGTOW’s can’t go their own way unless we just shut up. You people are identical to feminists. I went my own way. That doesn’t mean I have to shut up, never share me views with anyone, and live in the woods and have no contact with mankind in any way at all. We’ll define what it means, not you liars.

    Read this very carefully……what does MGTOW mean? It can mean a few things. For me it means avoiding marriage for all the many reasons we’ve outlined so many times before. So why post about it? Gee, I wonder why? To warn other unsuspecting men who might be reading. It’s not rocket science.

    One more time so everyone can see it….

    To warn other unsuspecting men who might be listening. Get it now?

    Also what we are discussing here is something known as a subject. And what happens when two or more people are talking about a subject? Usually you get differing opinions. So what happens then? Something called a debate. Why debate? Why debate anything? You people know the answer. Stop pretending like you don’t.

    And stop being a braindead VD parrot and stop inventing BS. Think for yourselves for once. It’s not about “despair” or “fear”. That’s just a cowardly response in order to avoid the issue. It’s called living in REALITY instead of the gynocentric world you people bathe in. But I guess if someone’s parachute has a huge chance of not opening when he needs it most but then I have the audacity to warn him then it’s just spreading “despair” and “fear”. No Einstein, it’s called warning someone that what he’s about to do is so dangerous and stupid that it could end him.

    And don’t give me this bullshit response of “oh, you’re just terrified of taking any risk at all”. That’s just more denial and deflection. I’ve taken many risks in my life. But there is no way I’m going to willingly invite a person into my own home who has LEGAL totalitarian power over me. That’s just beyond moronic at this point.

    So yes we’re going to post whether you like it or not because we actually give a shit about other men’s lives. Especially the young unsuspecting men whom you people are so willing to throw under the bus. We don’t like seeing these well-meaning guys lives totally destroyed for no other reason than being born with an penis. All you people can see is pussy.

    BillyS says:
    September 11, 2019 at 3:03 pm

    You are a young idiot 7817.

    Not only are you and VFM mindreaders, you know know the looks, profile, etc. of all men not engaging with women.

    A neighbor of mind is quite attractive on the outside. He has a good well-paying job, a nice car, nice 3 bedroom house he takes reasonable care of, etc. He is a “loser” because he hasn’t married up a modern ho?

    I haven’t spoken with him much, but he is not your idiotic profile of MGTOW and yet he is living that way (whether he calls it MGTOW or not). Another man I know is in his 40s and remains single with no prospects. It wasn’t his plan, but no women were available for him. Yet he is evil or whatever bad names you want to call him because you are so wonderful?

    Give it a rest! You think just as little as the progressive leftists you would claim to oppose (I assume). You would never say that those who disengage from mainstream media are because that is the only way to drive them to change. Yet you do this for ALL modern males. Think a bit more if your brain has not completely left.

    Nice to see that someone actually has a functioning brain rather being a mindless VD parrot.

  147. 7817 says:

    BillyS

    Doesn’t matter how many times I explained to the mgtows here that I have no problem with men just living their lives sans women. It’s the ones who glory in their status as mgtow that are the problem.

    If your friend is functionally mgtow, no problem, but if he’s a Man Who Needs A Tow, just revelling in despair, then he’s just a male version of the women all the local mgtows whine about.

    The vocal MGTOWs can’t get anything going themselves. They’re always blaming their failures on other men. “Why don’t you DO something to fix women?” “I won’t marry anyone until you REAL MEN fix the system!”

    MGTOWS are just as dependent on that rare individual, the REAL MAN (whoever he is) as women are. They blame their problems on him, and refuse to play any game that they have a possibility of losing. Obviously the REAL MEN should fix the system and then give these MGTOWS their daughters…

    Manliness is so rare that even MGTOWs need to use someone else’s to fix their problems.

  148. 7817 says:

    what does MGTOW mean? It can mean a few things.

    Right, you always revert to trying to have it both ways. When you are called on the fact that the whiner mgtows are the problem, you define mgtow as just any man going his own way.

    But all the rest of the time you just can’t stop whining. You all argue like women. So tiresome.

  149. Ranger says:

    If you were actually being sincere then a MGTOW’s first order of business is to GO THEIR OWN WAY. If it makes the boomercuck tradcons jealous, then all the better. If it leaves our misandrist women in the lurch, then all the better. Why should men waste their lives scrapping and clawing to reinstitute marriage anyway?

    “Jealousy” is not the first word that springs to my mind about men whining on the internet about the troubles of the world.

    To answer your question. Because being a Patriarch is good. Because God created marriage. Because “it is not good for Man to be alone”.

    It was always a female’s institution.

    A barefaced lie. It was an institution, created by God himself (if you are a Christian), or by thousands of years of human evolution (if you are a materialist) so as to BALANCE male and female’s proclivities. Neither got a raw deal, neither were able to fulfill their sexual imperatives fully.

    Fighting and “clawing” for the right to bed down a 180 pounder 8 times a year while working 60-70 hours to provide everything to her seems like something I wouldn’t do if life lasted a thousand years. I certainly have no time for it in reality.

    Don’t you already have this “right”? It’s a horrible deal, and I see why it is not appealing ; but to just give up and not to try to have the right to Marriage 1.0 (which, on its own, would GREATLY improve the pool of available women) strikes me as someone wallowing in their own misery.

    Dostoyevsky’s “Notes from the Underground” has described very well that general attitude, as has C.S. Lewis.

  150. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jim
    Do you people really have no ability to comprehend the English language or are you just lying?

    Neither, and I’m not a “you people”.

    In you’re view MGTOW’s can’t go their own way unless we just shut up.

    Nope. There’s more than one MGTOW forum out there, where you can comment 24 / 7 on the futility of marriage, and where there aren’t any pro-marriage people get in your way. Dalrock’s been discussing issues about marriage and divorce here for years. There aren’t many places where marriage related issues can be discussed sans feminist screeching or “My Lord Mary Lee” style mooing. MGTOW adds nothing to the discussion here.

    If you are opposed to marriage and regard it as insane, that’s fine. There are other places online where you can share that with others. A number of men here are trying to solve problems in a way that you don’t agree with, and nonstop “THERE IS NO HOPE” black pilling adds nothing useful. It solves no problem. It’s just noise that jams up the signal.

    You people are identical to feminists.

    Irony.
    How much more attention must you demand from men?

  151. Random Angeleno says:

    Back in the day, I was married to a 6 with the body of a 7. She had issues severe enough that I had to divorce her in order to recover my sanity and self respect. She lived in her own fantasy world in which she could say or do anything and I would sit there and take it. So it was quite the shock to her system when I left. Yet it still took another five years before she started behaving toward me in a more compliant manner. Most women are just not used to being told “no”. And don’t ever tell them to “shut up”. Like pouring gas on a fire, that.

    That was before I took the red pill. With it, I might not have married her in the first place. I had wanted children with her, but in retrospect it’s a good thing we didn’t have any.

    Since swallowing the red pill and returning to the Catholicism by which I was raised, I’ve had some girlfriends, but no one I wanted to tie the knot with. Hence I’ve fallen back on MGTOW as a default mode. I still get out to dance and date, but as I’m a bit old to start a family and the available somewhat attractive women, even the Catholic ones, are more broken than I am, marriage is not that high a priority now.

    So it is with incredulity that I read the counsel here to marry a 4 and am wondering, is that all that fellow has to offer? He has a valid point about whiners, I’ll give him that, but otherwise he should just back away slowly from the table. If I vet women and find them wanting, should I still marry one? Pinch my nose and go for it anyway? That seems to be what this fellow is implying..

  152. FatR says:

    “All of you are mentally unable to accept any solution other than your chewed over vomit of MGTOW”

    Solution to what problem? Getting laid? Whores and porn. Companionship? The whole concept of Game which you have invoked is founded on the explicit idea that NO woman can ever provide such thing genuinely and over the last dozens of threads Game proponents hammered it down again and again, that the cost of keeping a family in modern America (not that the rest of the civilized world is that much different) is such constant vigilance, as if you were living in the same house with a tiger. Children? People who genuinely like parenting can adopt.

    Or the problem of the society no longer having enough slaves on plantation?

  153. feministhater says:

    Assuming that MGTOWs are basically correct, that the current state of marriage in the Anglo sphere is so awful that it is a terrible idea to try to start a family, but also assuming that being a Paterfamilias is one of the main possible joys of life, shouldn’t a MGTOW’s first order of business be, not to withdraw from society and play videogames, but to basically invest every inch of his willpower and of his time to try and change the legal situation?

    This has been tried, the MRAs tried. If failed. The situation only got worse. There is no stopping the crazy train until it runs off the rails and crashes. Hence MGTOW was born. There is no saving the day. Democracy fails because it is way too hard to get people to vote against their own selfish interests.. in the same vain, it is impossible to get women to remove their hold over marriage because it goes against their own selfish interests. It needs to fail first, then things can be done.

    I’ve been here for years, as long as anyone. MGTOW provided me what I needed. Marrying a four?! Lol! Gaming a four?! Haha! Are you guys out of your freaking minds. I don’t need that shit in my life. Hilarious!

    It was a shitty idea from vlm, that is the truth. It was a shit idea.

  154. BillyS says:

    I spoke with him a while back Frank. I don’t believe I said “MGTOW” but he did not mention any of the key phrases. Just the “I am doing life I enjoy” stuff. His brother seems to be facing a nasty divorce now, so perhaps that influences him as well.

  155. feministhater says:

    So it is with incredulity that I read the counsel here to marry a 4 and am wondering, is that all that fellow has to offer? He has a valid point about whiners, I’ll give him that, but otherwise he should just back away slowly from the table. If I vet women and find them wanting, should I still marry one? Pinch my nose and go for it anyway? That seems to be what this fellow is implying..

    He gave a stupendously bad idea, an absolutely mortifying idea, as a solution to a highly risky assessment problem for men and then got upset because he got called on it.

    It’s silly to call that whining. He actually gave bad advice to the men on this forum and needed to be called out.

  156. Anonymous Reader says:

    FatR
    over the last dozens of threads Game proponents hammered it down again and again, that the cost of keeping a family in modern America (not that the rest of the civilized world is that much different) is such constant vigilance, as if you were living in the same house with a tiger.

    Lol!
    Over exaggerate much?

  157. BillyS says:

    7817,

    You must be reading some hidden messages I have missed. I don’t see this consistent mass grouping behavior. I saw much more consistency in the comments at Vox Day’s site than I do here (which is the only MGTOW-ish site I read). That was true especially after he cracked down, only a allowing a token disagreement at times.

    I like much of what he says, but he is completely blind to his own flaws and those who just spout his lines without thinking are making themselves guilty of the same things.

    You have no real solutions, yet you assert all who disagree as scum. That is completely useless and is machine gunning your own side.

    Remember that you are the dog if you hear the dog whistle.

  158. feministhater says:

    Manliness is so rare that even MGTOWs need to use someone else’s to fix their problems.

    What the heck are you on about? No MGTOWs are asking you or anyone else to fix anything of ours. You go fix the problem if YOU want to fix marriage and get more men interested. That is your problem, not MGTOWs.

  159. Frank K says:

    There is no stopping the crazy train until it runs off the rails and crashes.

    I fear this to be true. And it won’t be pretty, I believe that millions will die violent deaths.

  160. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jim
    To warn other unsuspecting men who might be listening. Get it now?

    By the way, this is the same kind language that college girl feminists use at “Take Back The Night” rallies. “One in three women on this campus will be raped! We are here to demand that men stop raping! And to warn unsuspecting women about all the bad rapist men!”. That sort of hyperbole is typical of hysterical feministas, as we both know.

    When a man finds himself writing in the style of a sophomore Women’s Studies major at Podunk State Uni, he might want to take a step back and examine himself. Just a suggestion.

  161. feministhater says:

    I’ve got an idea.

    If all the manly men here would just go to Vox Day’s website, he can ban all the weidos, freaks, loser MGTOWs and Incels and whatnot else; and then the ‘real’ men can sit in Socratic poses, thinking truly, without the comments here disturbing their Herculean mind thought pulses, and come up with these wondrous solutions they keep telling us we are stopping them from coming to.

    Cause to tell you the truth chaps. If all it takes is comments from us losers to distract you from solving this problem…. you have far graver ills to worry about.

  162. ZMAN says:

    @ Nick M

    Just do a search on her….MILO the gay dude dropped the info on her. Also Johnny Gat on youtube exposed her as fraudulent based on her true (((background))). I wouldn’t trust any of these tradthots or so-called “religious” women especially the Christians.

    I wish the best for you guys out here but I’ve met and gotten to know a number of these Christian girls and two that I know are straight up whores. One really innocent looking white Christian girl has a sex video on pornhub fucking a black dude which I wasn’t expecting that LOL and another white Chrisitan girl fucked two of my friends in one night and another friend fingered her….he said she had a roast beef pussy and refused to fuck her LMAO! Needless to say she is now married and posts lovely Christian quotes and bible verses on her facebook.

    Quite frankly you have to be out of your freaking mind to marry one of these women seriously. Where are you clowns getting off? The only option is MGTOW or PUA and plow as many of these whores as you can and that’s what they like so what the hell. Better wrap that dick up especially since a lot of these women are so depraved that they are fucking their own dogs. Here is a link:

    This guy has been archiving these women who are getting down with their dogs. It is no longer the red pill or black pill…..you need to take the dog pill. Yeah I knew a girl in high school that would put peanut butter on her pussy and let her dog lick it off. I’ve been dog pilled since 17.

  163. BillyS says:

    One thing missing from the anti-MGTOW people is solid actionable advice. That is true for Vox Day as well, unfortunately.

    AlphaGame had some concepts, but still lacked specific what to do steps.

    “Marry a 4 and game her” is not good actionable advice. It is better than just name calling, but not by much. The problem is that name calling is the only “game” in town now for many it seems. They are so stuck in rhetoric that the forget that you still need substance to back it up if you want to accomplish anything.

    People who have been burned or seen others close to them being burned are not quite as vulnerable to such rhetoric. It is also very immoral to pile on those that are since it is manipulating the very weak people you are claiming to seek to help.

  164. 7817 says:

    You have no real solutions, yet you assert all who disagree as scum.

    Any solutions are shouted down by the vocal mgtows, they’d rather enjoy hopelessness.

    That is completely useless and is machine gunning your own side.

    MGTOWS are not on my side. I am not on their side. They are to worthless to be much of an enemy but they do manage to stumble into the way of better men quite often.

  165. Gunner Q says:

    Anonymous Reader @ September 10, 2019 at 2:36 pm:
    “Anonymous Age 60+ was clearly a remarkably perceptive Boomer, too bad he never created his own blog, but left his observations as comments on Spearhead and other places.”

    He’s still around, has a read-only blog and comments vis Disqus. E-mail me at protonmail, name gunnerq, if you’re interested in making contact.

  166. 7817 says:

    Me:

    Manliness is so rare that even MGTOWs need to use someone else’s to fix their problems.

    FH:

    You go fix the problem if YOU want to fix marriage and get more men interested. That is your problem, not MGTOWs.

    I rest my case.

  167. Anonymous Reader says:

    feministhater
    If all the manly men here would just go to Vox Day’s website

    Why bother? We already have multiple groupies and haters jamming up comments here. No need to look further.

    Cause to tell you the truth chaps. If all it takes is comments from us losers to distract you from solving this problem…. you have far graver ills to worry about.

    C’mon, fh, that’s just passive aggressive snark, and I am pretty sure you know it.

  168. ZMAN says:

    @7817

    Please tell the MGTOWs your advice…..I am just gonna guess it is the typical man up and marry that slut nonsense from the tradcuck christcuck crowd. LOL These women at church (atleast 95%) are straight whores. I have only met one Christian young woman who was an upstanding person and not some kind of whore or damaged in a serious way. The amount of obese Christian women is off the charts, they could start their own new animal classification. No sane MGTOW is going to marry one of the single mothers out there with some other dudes spawn. Please spare us that drivel too dude.

    Man let these guys save themselves, they aren’t hurting anyone by not marrying some slut that will destroy them. They don’t care if they aren’t on your side either. So you go your way and I am sure they will go theres. Lets see who ends up alright on the back end. My money is on the MGTOW dude who stays out of trouble, has a job, and can live comfortably and retire. You know if a guy stays single with a regular job he can retire easily in his 40s or early 50s. No stress.

  169. 7817 says:

    BillyS:

    One thing missing from the anti-MGTOW people is solid actionable advice.

    You know where you are right? This is the internet, the part known as the manosphere. This is pretty much the only place on the internet with actionable advice for men. If you can’t find it here you’re blind.

    Start with David D Angelo s D.Y.D. book, then read the Rational Male series, and if you still need help go join the TRP Reddit or MRP Reddit.

    No one can honestly complain about a lack of actionable advice in this corner of the internet.

  170. 7817 says:

    Please tell the MGTOWs your advice…..I am just gonna guess it is the typical man up and marry that slut nonsense from the tradcuck christcuck crowd.

    That’s not my advice to anyone. See my other posts.

    I’m not even pro marriage necessarily, for sure not pro government marriage.

  171. Scott says:

    At this point, I don’t think it is reasonable for happily married, openly red-pilled men to offer advice about how to find, marry and keep a marriage 1.0 woman.

    I think this presupposition is probably coming through loud and clear as the subtext of my own stuff, which is why the MGTOW guys seem to still like me.

    The probability of the average, church going, Christian guy finding this needle in the haystack is so low so as to make the search wasted energy. The probability of actually getting her attention and marrying her is then, by default even lower. Finally, in the current social/divorce/CS climate, once you find her and marry her, you are indeed flying by the seat of your pants, every minute of every day hoping to the cross the finish line (marriage ending in death) before she succumbs to the whispers and drops the detonation lever.This is true even if you are Thors younger brother and your daily married man game is perfect.

    MGTOWs are not wrong when they point this out.

    Only long, slow change over time will aggregate to reform marriage as the macro issues work themselves out.

    Paul give us the best possible advice. Are you married? Stay married. Are you single? Stay single.

    My perspective has been rightly pointed out by others here to be a fluke moment of random chance. I did exactly what the truest of true believers in the red pill say not to do. I shared what I was reading with my wife, and she basically said, “well, duh. Women have been getting away with murder for a really long time. Took you long enough to finally say something. Take charge, I’ll follow.”

    In the world of advice-giving, this puts me in the predicament of basically shrugging my shoulders when asked what to do. How they hell should I know? This woman can’t keep her hands off me. II am truly grateful for the one God gave me, but I really don’t have a clue. I’ve written on my old blog(s) and openly explored the chemistry angle, the personality compatibility angle, “game” (or what I just like to refer as universally attractive traits for women that you either have or don’t have), and many others.

    Beware of those claiming to know the secret(s) of how to navigate this mess.

  172. 7817 says:

    At this point, I don’t think it is reasonable for happily married, openly red-pilled men to offer advice about how to find, marry and keep a marriage 1.0 woman.

    As a psychiatrist, do you give clients an exact step by step roadmap to fixing their problems, or after listening, do you tell them what they need to do and then hope they’ll apply it in their own way?

    The 2nd kind is the advice found here.

    I don’t recommend trying to make marriage 1.0 work. I recommend essentially the Rian Stone plan.

    Make yourself attractive.

    Don’t DEER.

    The stay plan is the Go Plan.

  173. Spike says:

    Scott says:
    September 11, 2019 at 6:41 pm
    Amen, brother. NONE of us are perfect, none of us know what to do in any given situation. That’s because the complexity of the world around us creates problems we can’t solve. That is why we need to rely on God. The godless society will tell you that is a weakness. It is not. It is our strength.

  174. Scott says:

    7817-

    For precision,I am a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. (PhD vs MD)

    I have had two types of male clients referred to me through red-pill channels.

    The first type reminds me of a great line from the movie “Wyatt Earp.” Doc Holiday, played by Dennis Quaid, referring to Wyatts drama-queen, BPD on again, off again girlfriend says after her most recent suicide attempt “For some people this word aint never gonna be right.”

    This group of people have a constitutional inability to engage the world on its terms. They cannot accept the realities of how people and things actually work, through the process of trial and error–learning from experiences and incorporating those trials into new strategies. They come to me with totally solvable problems and I say the words that are needed. But those words take form as the air in my lungs combines with my mouth and evaporate into the atmosphere like shining a flashlight at a star billions of light years away.

    The second group is done with me in 2-3 sessions, meaning I make no money from them. They know what they need to hear (because they read sites like this and TRM) but they want a real life human to say the words out loud. They simply need a second set of eyes on the problem, a huge dose of truth and they move on. They make major, life changing decisions and never turn back.

    The second group is aware of the normal distributions of innate abilities. They are not trying to be taller than they are. Better looking. More “confident” (whatever that means). They are looking at life with cold hard reality glasses on and they need to use a rational rubric to formulate a plan forward. I help them hedge the hell out of their strengths and minimize the effect their weaknesses have on their goals.

  175. Novaseeker says:

    Why bother? We already have multiple groupies and haters jamming up comments here. No need to look further.

    To be honest the comments here have been jammed up with garbage for quite some time. It appears that mostly what happens are pitched battles between camps. We have the MGTOW vs anti-MGTOW, we have the scriptural pitched battles between armchair theologians, we have the Catholic/Protestant relitigation of the Reformation, and on and on. It’s a shame really.

    I do think that deti was on to something about how the demographics of the sphere have been changing. In my view this has dramatically impacted comments on the various blogs in a profoundly negative way. There really is very little interesting discussion taking place, regardless of the quality of the OP.

    Sad.

  176. 7817 says:

    For precision,I am a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. (PhD vs MD)

    Thanks for setting me straight.

    My argument is that mgtows are the type 1 group you describe, and that because of them the type 2 group has to dig through a whole lot of garbage to get what they need. I was a group 2 person, and benefited greatly from the old manosphere discussion. It’s possible that the mgtows would have prevented me from getting any useful advice if they had been around when I found this place. I would like to help other men get the info they need to improve their lives without digging through so much garbage and blackpilling.

  177. BillyS says:

    Any solutions are shouted down by the vocal mgtows, they’d rather enjoy hopelessness.

    The only suggestion I have seen: “Marry down” is not practical and was taken apart. Putting forth solutions requires being willing to have them challenged. That is likely why so many VFW (like their leader) fail to offer many specifics.

    I have said before that you still only have smugness, not solutions.

    Start with David D Angelo s D.Y.D. book, then read the Rational Male series, and if you still need help go join the TRP Reddit or MRP Reddit.

    No one can honestly complain about a lack of actionable advice in this corner of the internet.

    That is just some books to read. How do you find the wife that will be faithful for a lifetime? How do you filter out the others? Where are they? What specific things work and which do not?

    This is not actionable. A bunch of reading is not sufficient. It is also a copout. You won’t give that because it will be held accountable.

    Scott,

    Beware of those claiming to know the secret(s) of how to navigate this mess.

    Good advice overall in the rest of your comments, though this bears a response. Clearly no one can say “do XYZ and you will succeed.” But those who claim those who do not try are evil and failures do not admit this. They therefore have a requirement to note specific things to do to succeed.

    Their arrogance puts a demand on them to deal with the realities of what they proclaim. Reading a bunch of stuff (from others) and telling people to “marry down” is not sufficient.

  178. BillyS says:

    Novaseeker,

    Some contention is necessary or forums like this will wilt and die. I have seen enough of that happen on bulletin board systems in the past and it happened every time.

    I don’t love this waste crud and merely calling your opponent evil (which happens in many of these) is not helpful in the slightest. That is what is making this a waste of time, even though I reply every so often somewhat intensively.

    I am not even a pro-MGTOW guy, but idiots like these are pushing me into that. I suspect this is the opposite of their desire, but I have low tolerance for foolishness, including foolish rhetoric.

    Giving those you oppose no quarter will make them fight harder. Unfortunately VFM and 7817 are just following Vox Day’s latest direction here. It is held to even if it is not smart, for all the claimed smarts claimed by those involved.

    At least I can admit I am often stupid in ways, in spite of my high intelligence.

  179. 7817 says:

    That is just some books to read.

    Huh. So is the Bible. Yet no one here suggests we ignore it.

    How do you find the wife that will be faithful for a lifetime?

    I would like to know this myself. Instead I’m left with the cold knowledge that there are no guarantees, and that the only one I can control is myself.

    How do you filter out the others?

    I passed over a lot of girls. Not completely sure why I picked the one I did. It was prior to coming here.

    Where are they?

    Scattered throughout the population. It’s going to take time to find one, so do everything you can to be ready.

    What specific things work and which do not?

    You can’t insulate yourself from failure, but in general Deti has great advice on these lines. He continually repeats what behaviors are and are not attractive to women.

    This is not actionable.

    The books I mentioned give you information. If you take the information to heart, it is actionable. I’m living proof man, you can’t BS me on this.

    A bunch of reading is not sufficient. It is also a copout.

    I can’t hold your or anyone else’s hand through the process. All I can do is point you towards WHAT HELPED me, and to men like Scott and Rian Stone that actually do counseling, if you need more than a book.

    You won’t give that because it will be held accountable.

    Bud, I don’t know you personally, but it’s hard to help people you only talk to over the internet. Deeper advice than this is not good to give without knowing someone better, and I’m not sure I’d be qualified anyway, but THESE THINGS are what helped me, and that’s why I wholeheartedly recommend them.

  180. Anonymous Reader says:

    In the Proverbs 31 thread Nick M posted a link to a BBC interview with a young porn star former, Mia Khalifa. It is worth viewing just for the rationalization hamster she’s got running in her head.

    Two bios each with a few different details.
    https://infogalactic.com/info/Mia_Khalifa
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Khalifa

    Not yet 25, she’s a trainwreck. Of course none of it was her fault, the Hamster says so.

    Here’s the interesting bit: Khalifa has a BA in History from some state Uni in Texas, but was recruited into porn in Florida while working at some fast food chain. Lol, whut? Mah col-edge de-gree got me a job that many high school students could also get! WhooHoo!

    Women are earning more college degrees than men, but does that really matter? A decent plumber or HVAC tech would surely out earn “college grad” Khalifa’s job pre-porn. Hypergamy might even calm down in the presence of enough Benjamins…even without a 4-year degree in “stuff”.

  181. Anonymous Reader says:

    Shucks. Khalifa is 26, I meant to write “not yet 27“, gee whiz whatta brainfade.

  182. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    Do you people really have no ability to comprehend the English language or are you just lying?

    Neither, and I’m not a “you people”.

    In you’re view MGTOW’s can’t go their own way unless we just shut up.

    Nope. There’s more than one MGTOW forum out there, where you can comment 24 / 7 on the futility of marriage, and where there aren’t any pro-marriage people get in your way. Dalrock’s been discussing issues about marriage and divorce here for years. There aren’t many places where marriage related issues can be discussed sans feminist screeching or “My Lord Mary Lee” style mooing. MGTOW adds nothing to the discussion here.

    If you are opposed to marriage and regard it as insane, that’s fine. There are other places online where you can share that with others. A number of men here are trying to solve problems in a way that you don’t agree with, and nonstop “THERE IS NO HOPE” black pilling adds nothing useful. It solves no problem. It’s just noise that jams up the signal.

    Exactly. I have no beef with MGTOWs. I’m indifferent to the movement (or whatever you call it), because, as a married father of nine, it doesn’t apply to me. Here’s what Dalrock wrote in his “about” link.

    I’m a happily married man living with my sexy wife and our two wonderful kids in the Dallas/Forth Worth area. I’m very interested in how the post feminist world impacts myself and my family, and am using this blog to explore these kinds of issues.

    That’s why I’m here. I’m here to learn from other married fathers how best to inoculate my kids against the cultural disease. How to advise them. And how to improve my marriage.

    That’s also why I don’t read MGTOW blogs, or frequent MGTOW forums. They have nothing for me. I assume they have valuable information for men who have no interest in marriage or family, but I’m not one of those men, so there’s no point in me frequenting those sites.

    I’m baffled as to why men who claim to have no interest in marriage or family frequent a blog specifically about marriage and family.

    I’m not saying anyone has to leave. I’m just confused as to why they’d voluntarily spend their time here in the first place.

  183. feministhater says:

    I rest my case.

    What case? Seriously, what case? I haven’t asked you to fix my problem. I’ve told you, time and time again that my problem is fixed. You keep telling us that you want to solve the despair and marriage problem. Those, by definition, are YOUR problems, to which you need to find the solution.

  184. TheOtherScott says:

    From my point of view the brokenness of men and women is a constant. Has been…always will be. Your arguments about how to live with it are all valid. I’m happy to see the discussions. I learn from both sides. Personally, I will never marry again. The first 32 years of it has been so full of suffering that I just have no desire. I thank God for my three children. I wouldn’t have them if not for marriage.

    I married into mental illness (narcissism). So be it. It´s my lot in life and I’m dealing with it the best I can. What I really need is somebody to talk to, some good advice with a Biblical viewpoint. Scott nailed that aspect pretty well. But why do I have to pay a professional for what should be free? Why can’t I just talk to someone with no strings, no paper trail, no financial burden?

    I view the problem to be that the Church has dropped the ball. There used to be societal controls for the worst tendencies of both women and men. Not so much any more. Women have become feral and men hobbled by actions and inactions of the Church within society at large. I’m suffering my issues solo. I have no one within the Church with whom I can talk or seek advice because women can do no wrong. All the churchians think there must be something wrong with me. My wife thinks there is something wrong with me because I don’t put her up on the pedestal with all of her Christian friends.

    The goddess worship within the modern church is strong and foul. I expect to be divorced at any minute (and frankly the next time she threatens it I’m going to help her pack) and I will be condemned and ostracized regardless of my fault in the issue. The Church laments the divorce rate within it but is disinterested (unable?) to deal with the problem when the marriages might be salvageable.

  185. Pingback: Word from the Dark Side – waskally Ukrainian brides, mind viruses and the cost of virginity | SovietMen

  186. fsy says:

    It is worth viewing just for the rationalization hamster she’s got running in her head.

    In that interview at 4:30, she mentions girls “signing contracts that they didn’t understand the jargon of”, and considers that “exploitation”. Yes, that would be true if the girls were 10 yrs. old (and the contract would be invalid, of course.) Wow!

  187. goFigure says:

    I think the men on here that are constantly bashing MGTOW have a fundamental miss understanding of what the term means. They keep focusing on a definitions of MGTOW they saw on some website written by some random person.

    The funny things about MGTOW is each person can define it any way they want. In fact, I know several MGTOW men who have a wife and kids. Which seems to be a major complaint by the anit-MGTOW men. Which does not paint these anti-MGTOW men in a good light.

  188. 7817 says:

    I think the men on here that are constantly bashing MGTOW have a fundamental miss understanding of what the term means…

    The funny things about MGTOW is each person can define it any way they want.

    Incoherence, distilled. Everyone misunderstands the term when they criticize it, but if you are mgtow it means whatever you want it to mean. Ridiculous.

    Look, if each person can define it how they want, I’m defining mgtow as only the whiners on the internet. The “confirmed bachelor” types that live without women are a whole different personality, and those guys are no problem for me.

  189. 7817 says:

    @theotherscott

    I hear you man. I’m glad you got some good things from all the bad though. You aren’t alone.

  190. Oscar says:

    @ goFigure

    The funny things about MGTOW is each person can define it any way they want.

    If a word can mean whatever anyone and everyone wants it to mean, then that word is literally nonsense.

    In fact, I know several MGTOW men who have a wife and kids.

    Exactly.

  191. goFigure says:

    Incoherence, distilled. Everyone misunderstands the term when they criticize it, but if you are mgtow it means whatever you want it to mean. Ridiculous.
    If a word can mean whatever anyone and everyone wants it to mean, then that word is literally nonsense.

    So you two are now going to tell all the men out there that have decided to go against what society tells them, and do it however they wish; that they are not doing it their own way. They must conform to some a set of ideals, or they are not doing it their own way. And you use words like nonsense and incoherent. Haahaa.

  192. 7817 says:

    So you two are now going to tell all the men out there that have decided to go against what society tells them, and do it however they wish; that they are not doing it their own way. They must conform to some a set of ideals, or they are not doing it their own way.

    No. You are arguing like a woman. This is not about whether or not you are free to do things your own way, that’s never been the issue. This is about clear communication.

    Mgtow isn’t a handy all purpose word that gets you out of having to communicate the way men do, unless mgtow now means Men Guaranteed To Obfuscate like Women.

  193. goFigure says:

    Arguing like a women is using emotion. Like you are doing.

    I am simply pointing out a fact. There are men in the country who identify as MGTOW that do not conform to your points. You as a man will have to deal with that.

    MGTOW is not a word at all, it is a accronym used by some to describe some decisions they have made.

  194. Red Pill Christianity says:

    @ZMAN says: I wish the best for you guys out here but I’ve met and gotten to know a number of these Christian girls and two that I know are straight up whores. One really innocent looking white Christian girl has a sex video on pornhub fucking a black dude which I wasn’t expecting that LOL and another white Chrisitan girl fucked two of my friends in one night and another friend fingered her….he said she had a roast beef pussy and refused to fuck her LMAO! Needless to say she is now married and posts lovely Christian quotes and bible verses on her facebook.
    Dude, I dated one exact girl like that. Solid 9…. I admit, I was 19 and crazy about her. She was my dreamgirl in terms of looks and I was a romantic rebel back then. Christian girl too, great personality back then.

    But it all began to go downhill fast from there. She was gearing up to go off to college and we broke up before that since I was gonna do Comm College and then transfer to a better school than she was going to. We lost touch over time.

    After we broke up, the guy who intro me to her told me about some bad things she was starting to do. After we split, she started to wear such “modern comfortable clothing” to church (because God only cares about the heart-type thing – so she told me). Her older sister was in college and began to spew feminist poison. I would get e-mail FWDs from her with leftist propaganda and would write back like WTF is the deal with you type things. It got to the point one of the pastors overheard guys making comments about her at the church social (what a surprise, she was dressing like Daisy Duke at church and expect men would not notice and comment??)? *roll eyes*

    Later, we re-connected. I was shocked to see that she went on to become a pothead, had FB page full of pics with a bunch of dudes, drinking out of a keg, drinking vodka bottles at work and posting on social media, you name it. She proudly posted stuff on FB. And she even had drag-queen friends (dudes wearing women’s clothing) and going to events with them.

    Then one day, without a warning or anything, she moved back to her smalltown in Midwest. That happen suddenly after she was 33 years old and after being semi-broke for years working as a waitress at a lounge evenings, drinking like an Irish mill worker (with pics to prove it), and being in “relationships” with at least 35+ men that we know of, as she posted it all online.

    And suddenly, like a light-switch, she completely changes and heads back to her small town in the Midwest. Acting like nothing ever happened. She becomes a Christian saint again. Dude she married and had a kid with seems like a solid Christian Beta guy who works 70/h week to meet her needs as a local dealership manager

    I doubt this guy knows about any of her past. She scrubbed everything off FB and InstaGram. I mean EVERY SINGLE THING! I bet there were photo deletions on her PC and whole photo albulms had to be burned. If you saw her pictures online today, you would think she was the “hot version” of Mother Theresa… except she continues to post far-left trash on her FB (she used to be conservative in clothing and all before college).

    But her image today? Clean-cut, long hair, sweet smile on her face. Church-girl and super-mom. It was like she was when we were dating years ago (minus the ‘mom’ part)!!!

    It is like Dalrock says…. these girls go from High school “sweethearts” to raging college feminists/wh0res to after-college careerist h0es to suddenly innocent little angels ready to marry and have kids in their mid-30s (or beyond).

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/last-one-down-the-aisle-wins-part-1/

    Because this gal still retained some of her beauty and stayed about a ~7 (she lost at least 2 points since we dated at age 19) and stayed thin and grew out her hair, she was able to land a guy, no problems. I bet he is happy as a clam. Little he knows how many d!cks have been up all of her holes and how damaged her liver and soul really are.

    The past? Forget it all… she is back with Jesus again!! How dare you question her past? Jesus forgave it all. It is all erased. Poof.

    As long as dudes continue to bail out women later in life with marriage, car, and kids and dudes continue to buy into their “innocence”, this will never ever end. Women can then “have it all”, just as feminists promise her.

    She can party hard, bang all sorts of guys, live like drunken sailors, and then flip a switch, pretend to be “holy” and innocent, and land a Beta with a job and a decent small-town Midwestern house. Does not sound like much, but for a used-up wh0re like that girl, she has landed a pretty decent stay-at-home mom gig in her mid-30s. She managed to marry and have a kid all in time.

    A heck of “consequences” for a woman after decade and change of pure Sodom & Gomorrah style living.

  195. goFigure says:

    If it will make you feel better. I would agree with you that the acronym MGTOW is essentially useless in trying to move a discussion forward on an internet comment sections. It has fare to much ambiguity to it.

  196. Oblivion says:

    What that graph isn’t showing is the men who got red pilled 10 years ago and have now decided to have a family with a woman about 10 years younger than them. This is starting to become a trend among older alpha types. there is a point in your late 30s where if you want a family, your going to have to choose a woman. Better to have the kitten, it helps with the whole needing to cheat with a younger woman. expect to see a bump in 30 something never married woman, the guys who have game are going about 8-10 years younger for marriage prospects.

  197. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Ps. When women decide they want to marry and have a “homemaker life” or gain “wife status”, they become laser-focused. They seek out Beta Bux like a homing missile.

    Their greatest and most powerful weapon in that endeavor is simple: innocence!

    Appearing to be innocent is how a woman gets a man to spend tons of resources and commit to her. And women are great at faking this.

    Years ago, it would have fooled me. Today, I am post-30 and much more seasoned and immune to these tricks. And yeah they still try it on me, believe me, it sometimes gets close to working. lol

    Must read: https://www.swooptheworld.com/innocence-is-a-weapon/

    Time for a Red Pill lesson for all mankind. Taking the Red Pill and accepting this truth about fake innocence shall remove the scales from your eyes.

    Thou shall not be deceived by “innocent women” any longer.

  198. 7817 says:

    GoFigure, are you actually female? Maybe I’ve been getting your pronoun wrong this whole time…

    Arguing like a women is using emotion.

    No, it’s also bending facts to be whatever they want. Like you do with the word mgtow.

    There are men in the country who identify as MGTOW that do not conform to your points.

    I don’t care what points they conform to. All I want to do is correctly observe the differences in behaviour so that I can respond effectively. Non complaining mgtows aren’t an issue, but you’re not in that group. You are a whiner, and you deserve all the contempt you get.

    You as a man will have to deal with that.

    Yeah, I’m setting the example of how to show scorn for do nothing whiners who will never amount to anything because they always complain that the deck is always stacked against them, and that the men ought to fix it for them.

    MGTOW is not a word at all, it is a accronym used by some to describe some decisions they have made.

    Yeah… Whiny little BGTOW.

  199. goFigure says:

    7817,
    lol.

    Just like a women, you can not argue using logic; but you are great at shaming and calling people names.

  200. 7817 says:

    GoFigure:

    You’re a Strong and Independent MGTOW, you don’t need no woman. And they are cowards for rejecting you anyway. You’re fine just the way you are.

  201. Oscar says:

    @ goFigure

    MGTOW is not a word at all, it is a accronym used by some to describe some decisions they have made.

    From Webster’s Dictionary.

    acronym (noun)
    ac·​ro·​nym | \ ˈa-krə-ˌnim \
    Definition of acronym
    : a word (such as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term

    Do you realize that words have meaning?

  202. BillyS says:

    7817,

    Huh. So is the Bible. Yet no one here suggests we ignore it.

    I never said the books were bad, but reading them will not make your likelihood of a solid marriage enough higher to reduce the risk enough in the modern environment. The exact amount would vary of course, but not enough to make it 90% sure to succeed. I am not sure it would even do enough by itself. A great man can still get frivorced.

    Keep in mind this is a one-time marriage, not plans to date or PUA lots of women, where a large number of failures are acceptable if the end goal is reached.

    I can’t hold your or anyone else’s hand through the process. All I can do is point you towards WHAT HELPED me, and to men like Scott and Rian Stone that actually do counseling, if you need more than a book.

    Scott has disagreed with you (at least in part if I read what he writes correctly). You should not use him to affirm your minimal limited advice.

    You still can’t say, “Do XYZ and you will have a solid marriage without divorce.” You just claim some better results, with HUGE questions on how likely success really is with specifics you have given. (Marrying a 4 today will not guarantee a solid marriage in the slightest since that 4 is just as subject to being unhappy and having that unhappiness reinforced, even by Christians.)

    As to the term MGTOW: You have been given many valid examples here of how it is perfectly fine, yet you say those people are evil merely because they don’t pursue your proclaimed marriage plan which huge risks.

    Really funny that you accuse others of arguing just like you (like a woman)! You are using rhetoric and can’t handle any logic. That is why you have so much name calling at times.

    Oscar,

    I’m not saying anyone has to leave. I’m just confused as to why they’d voluntarily spend their time here in the first place.

    Because we care about the topic? How many other active similar Christian forums are available? Keep in mind the focus her is not on being the best married man you can be by itself. Dalrock posts on many related topics, including how that goal is undermined. That is perfectly relevant for many of us.

    TheOtherScott,

    I view the problem to be that the Church has dropped the ball.

    Exactly! That is the core problem and why we need to figure out how to change that mindset first. How can Christians succeed when their leaders mislead them? The Scriptures are full of that exact point!

    goFigure,

    Just like a women, you can not argue using logic; but you are great at shaming and calling people names.

    Unfortunately very true.

  203. 7817 says:

    BillyS:

    Scott has disagreed with you (at least in part if I read what he writes correctly). You should not use him to affirm your minimal limited advice.

    I was recommending Scott’s services as a counselor, without respect to what he thinks of me or my opinions or advice.

    You still can’t say, “Do XYZ and you will have a solid marriage without divorce.”

    I don’t know anyone human with that power.

    As to the term MGTOW: You have been given many valid examples here of how it is perfectly fine, yet you say those people are evil merely because they don’t pursue your proclaimed marriage plan which huge risks.

    None of this is true.

    Can you find a quote from me saying all mgtows must get married?

  204. SirHamster says:

    I’m not saying anyone has to leave. I’m just confused as to why they’d voluntarily spend their time here in the first place.

    That’s because they’re deserters trying to build their numbers. They’re despair shills, trying to crab-bucket any young man who might’ve found the hope and confidence to build a family otherwise.

    In an army, they’d be shot.

    Another blog I read has banned blackpilling. I read all the comments there, whereas here I skim once in a while looking for the commenters who will share a good word.

  205. BillyS says:

    Can you find a quote from me saying all mgtows must get married?

    Calling them all evil lying losers does give that impression.

    But I am sure you are just trying to encourage them in reality, right!

    (What a joke. Talk about using plausible deniability….)

  206. 7817 says:

    BillyS:

    No. To stop being a loser simply requires that you:

    A. Quit whining

    B. Pick yourself up off the ground

    C. Use the tools you have to face your problem and improve.

    It’s not about marriage. It’s about cowardice and fear and life in general.

  207. goFigure says:

    You’re a Strong and Independent MGTOW, you don’t need no woman. And they are cowards for rejecting you anyway. You’re fine just the way you are.

    I have never said I was MGTOW or not. And you have no idea what my current state of relationships is. Nor do you know anything about my take on women in general.

    All of have indicated is that the acronym/word MGTOW has a broader meaning than what you say it has.

  208. goFigure says:

    Oscar,

    OK, an acronym is considered a word. I can accept that. Now why don’t you use your online dictionary and tell us what the meaning of MGTOW is? That is what is being discussed. I have indicated that the word has a broader meaning than what other have said. To which you claimed that this is nonsense and that it has a very specific meaning. So, again go to your dictionary and tell all of us what it means.

  209. goFigure says:

    7817,
    No. To stop being a loser simply requires that you:

    A. Quit whining

    You recognize what you need to do. Now you should start practicing.

  210. feministhater says:

    That’s because they’re deserters trying to build their numbers. They’re despair shills, trying to crab-bucket any young man who might’ve found the hope and confidence to build a family otherwise.

    In an army, they’d be shot.

    Deserters of what exactly? No one signed up for anything here. You’re shame mongering on a bloody pretense. As if MGTOW men signed up for some responsibility and then reneged on it and deserted their posts. None of this happened.

    The laws, courts, society and the marriage deck are stacked against men. MGTOW did none of this. Not one thing. You are all so upset that a few men on a forum tell other men that it isn’t a clever idea to get married.

    Now you’re calling for us to be shot. Hey, go for it.

  211. feministhater says:

    vfm states

    Those claiming celibacy = MGTOW and equating it with being born that way, or comparing it in any way to a calling to the service of God are fucking serpents whispering…

    As a capstone to all the sneering for anyone following it all just know that there will never be a solution good enough for any MGTOW.

    To which 7817 responds

    Right on. Well stated.

    Can you find a quote from me saying all mgtows must get married?

    You implied it, especially in a Christian sense. You 100% explicitly agreed with vfm’s statement, not an ounce of disagreement. Thus it can be considered part of your beliefs.

    Thus when Billy said:

    As to the term MGTOW: You have been given many valid examples here of how it is perfectly fine, yet you say those people are evil merely because they don’t pursue your proclaimed marriage plan which huge risks.

    His point was made already.

    Quite simply, to avoid being apart of the celibacy = MGTOW crowd and thus being a ‘serpent’, a MGTOW who decides to become a Christian must get married or prove his calling to celibacy, else he is evil.

  212. 7817 says:

    FH:

    No, you’re just lying.

    Quite simply, to avoid being apart of the celibacy = MGTOW crowd and thus being a ‘serpent’, a MGTOW who decides to become a Christian must get married or prove his calling to celibacy, else he is evil.

    All they have to do is quit demonizing marriage and admit the truth, that most men are called to it.

    If they can’t get a woman, there’s no shame in that, but if they are going to call something good evil, and call something evil good, there is definitely shame in that.

    I don’t make fun of a crippled person that can’t walk. But if that crippled person says “walking is a bad thing” in order to cope with his inability to walk, he’s self deluded.

    Just like you.

    But then again, you’re a Strong and Independent MGTOW who don’t need no woman.

  213. feministhater says:

    All they have to do is quit demonizing marriage and admit the truth, that most men are called to it.

    Marriage is a raw deal for men. This is truth. Like it or not. Whether they are called to it or not is irrelevant in that respect, they must be made fully aware of the pitfalls.

    Not all men are going to be married, therefore they can choose MGTOW.

    Marriage is an institution. The people that organize its structures can be good or evil. Right now, they’re not very good.

    But then again, you’re a Strong and Independent MGTOW who don’t need no woman.

    I just want to live my life in relative peace, marriage adds an unacceptable, difficult to mitigate risk.

  214. SirHamster says:

    Deserters of what exactly? No one signed up for anything here. You’re shame mongering on a bloody pretense.

    Deserters of the society and nation that produced you.

    You can come up with all sorts of excuses:
    “The women deserted first!”
    “It’s not fair!”

    But it doesn’t change the result: A society produced you – you didn’t pass down a society that will produce another generation.

    As if MGTOW men signed up for some responsibility and then reneged on it and deserted their posts. None of this happened.

    No one signs up to be born. Yet all are offspring of father and mother, and honoring our parents is the first commandment with a promise.

    “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.”

    Whoever told you that all of your responsibilities are opt-in only lied to you. Every man takes on certain duties simply by existing.

    “Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.”

  215. feministhater says:

    Sorry Hamster.

    Society betrayed men. I have no obligation to your society.

    You can come and shoot me anytime you want. I’m done.

  216. feministhater says:

    A desertion of no formal promise but one made binding due to ones birth place is functionally a 100% induced enslavement without choice.

  217. I think that Dalrock should keep a close eye on this mgtow debate and take decisive action if it threatens to get out of hand.
    I saw what happened at AVfM a few years ago. A group there headed by Paul Elam were convinced that a man could be a mgtow and yet be married with children. Another group headed by John the Other thought this absurd. This back-and-forth caused great rancour with everyone forced to choose a side and eventually a rather spectacular falling out between Elam and JtR with the latter having his character assasinated before being cast into eternal darkness by Elam. It didn’t stop there,Elam openly gloated over the downfall of his one time golden boy informing readers that JtR would never be allowed back and that all his many articles had been deleted.
    AvfM never in my opinion recovered from the departure of JtR and his many followers.

  218. In my opinion mgtow is the correct way to go. The MRAs have been trying for many years to talk sense to women and they have been as effective as a mouse kicking an elephant.
    As a insider the only thing that will have a great genuine effect upon women is hard-line mgtow. Anything less than Amish shunning won’t have the slightest effect upon women as women are about as empathetic as a shark when it comes to men. The only think that women genuinely care about is their children and when women in increasing numbers realise that they are never going to become mothers then they will swiftly change their tune.

  219. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hamster
    That’s because they’re deserters trying to build their numbers.

    “Deserters”, snort. From what army, eh?

    They’re despair shills, trying to crab-bucket any young man who might’ve found the hope and confidence to build a family otherwise.

    Certainly the more shrill MGTOW are far into despair. Shrieking your girlishness at them won’t improve anything, though.

    In an army, they’d be shot.

    LOL @ your LARPing. Save it for the Renfair or your D&D group or whatever. Your fake tough-guy act is so thin I could use it for a screen cover and read everything on my tablet.

    Another blog I read has banned blackpilling.I read all the comments there, whereas here I skim once in a while looking for the commenters who will share a good word.

    Black pilling is tedious. However, this isn’t your “another blog”, and it isn’t yours. No one cares what you want or read, Hamster. All you are doing with this screed is trolling the MGTOW’s, so I guess that what you want is for another endless comment thread where you and other Vox Day groupies screech at MGTOW and Day haters, making any real communication by men all but impossible.

    Thanks for nothing, Hamster.

    You can’t be the Only Real Man in the Room when you are all alone. For sure that won’t work here.

  220. Anonymous Reader says:

    Stephanie
    In my opinion mgtow is the correct way to go.

    Your opinion is duly noted. Did you ask your husband, father or brother for permission to comment here?

    The only think that women genuinely care about is their children and when women in increasing numbers realise that they are never going to become mothers then they will swiftly change their tune.

    Your claim is testable. In fact it is tested every day. I shall demonstrate:

    Question: What is the median age of a US woman at first marriage?

    Your claim fails basic reality testing.

  221. Jim says:

    “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.”

    Already done that. And a lot better than most of you.

    Whoever told you that all of your responsibilities are opt-in only lied to you. Every man takes on certain duties simply by existing.

    I have no responsibility to get married. Stop lying.

    “Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.”

    Already doing that. You?

  222. Spike says:

    Re: 7817:
    “All they have to do is quit demonizing marriage and admit the truth, that most men are called to it.”

    I’m not going to add to your critics above, but MGTOW exists because marriage has already been demonized. It got demonized when Version 2.0 and its’ no-fault clauses came out. This simply added to the already-demonized state of the sexual revolution’s “Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law” policies of fornication, abortion, and single-mother stigma-removal.

    Are MGTOW and Christianity compatible? Technically Jesus was MGTOW. He did Go His Way, THE Way. . Paul was arguably MGTOW, as he wasn’t beholden to any woman. So I would say they are. You would have to give up sex, but apart from that, no problem. MGTOWs are not mainly hostile to individual women, but rather the gynocentric system as a whole. Again, no problem.

    I aspired to family. Raised traditionally, I didn’t see the traps of the Gyno-Beast System until years later. Only then did I realise the extent of the Law and its’ slant against men.

    MGTOW to my mind then, is an extreme solution to an extreme problem. I was red-pilled while married, and the Red Pill undoubtedly saved my marriage. For most men, that would be the case. Then again, my wife did retain a marriage endurance ethic, so while she didn’t openly apologise for her excesses, she quietly dropped them so we live more harmoniously.

    MGTOW might be extreme, but I don’t blame MGTOW men. Not one bit

  223. 7817 says:

    As usual, people are using examples of mgtow behavior that is not unique to mgtow, and that is perfectly acceptable, in order to justify the mgtow blackpilling.

    Again, marrying or not isn’t the issue. Blackpilling, declaring that despair is all that is left and that there’s no possibility of success is the issue.

    Blackpillers are poison.

  224. Acksiom says:

    [shrug]

    Bottom line, the MGTOW-bashers just don’t want to pay men what their surplus production is increasingly worth. They don’t really care about marriageable men’s best interests; they just want to exploit them for all they can get. Unfortunately for that, more and more of today’s men can live cheaper and better with less community involvement than ever before in history, and that trend is only increasing. So their price for marriageable men’s surplus production is naturally increasing.

    But the MGTOW-bashers aren’t willing to pay men those higher prices or pay the costs in labor and resources necessary on their own end to make the traditional contract acceptable to normal men again. They’re just too cheap and lazy for it. So they try namecalling and shaming instead, hoping to drive down men’s bargaining position in the socioeconomic market by fundamentally devaluing them as males in general and as MGTOW free agents in particular.

    The MGTOW-basher’s don’t even really care about their own communities. If they did, they’d be promoting solutions that address the fundamental changes in the socioeconomic market that are causing MGTOW’s growth in the first place. They don’t do that. They just bash and namecall and attempt to shame the people pointing out those fundamental changes who warn marriageable men not to sign off on a awful, terrible, not good, very bad deal.

    They’re just greedy and lazy, and they don’t really care about anybody but themselves.

  225. 7817 says:

    Are MGTOW and Christianity compatible?
    Mgtow would have to be a lot more clearly defined to determine this. It’s clear to me that the blackpilling is incompatible with Christianity, but celibacy is compatible, such as monkhood.

    In my opinion it is yet to be determined if some form of mgtow is compatible with Christianity. There would have to be more to the identity of mgtow than bitterness for sure.

    Things are bad in the legal system for sure, I’m completely uninterested in defending that, but marriage is far older than the current broken system, and it will outlast it.

  226. 7817 says:

    Not going to push this to another 400 comment thread.

    If this place just ends up being a haven for blackpillers, then I would go to other places to read. There’s been a lot of good things come from here, I’d hate to see them ruin it.

    I’ve said my piece for now.

  227. SirHamster says:

    @feministhater

    Sorry Hamster.

    Society betrayed men. I have no obligation to your society.

    You’re not a part of my society. We belong to different nations. My purpose is to build up mine, even though I’ve suffered the same as you whilst growing up in America. Your unwillingness to do the same for yours is sad, because I like America, but that’s how demoralization goes.

    Don’t give me fake apologies, no point.

    I’m not expecting you to keep the this sickly dying society going; the point it is honorable to build a better society and culture worth passing on, and shameful to leave behind nothing at all.

    @Jim

    I have no responsibility to get married. Stop lying.

    I didn’t say you had a responsibility to get married. I didn’t lie, you are reading things into my words I didn’t say.

    @Anonymous Reader

    Black pilling is tedious.

    True. At its worst, it is soul-poison.

    [other stuff]

    Don’t care.

    @7817

    In my opinion it is yet to be determined if some form of mgtow is compatible with Christianity. There would have to be more to the identity of mgtow than bitterness for sure.

    Don’t think it is. Defined by “Own Way”, not “God’s Way.” Filled with despair, without hope or love.

    Fruits are lacking. MGTOW may serve a purpose as a temporary stop, but it’s no place to call home.

  228. Oscar says:

    @ goFigure

    I have indicated that the word has a broader meaning than what other have said.

    That’s not what you wrote. Here’s what you wrote.

    goFigure says:
    September 12, 2019 at 8:45 am

    The funny things about MGTOW is each person can define it any way they want.

    So, it doesn’t just have “a broader meaning”. According to you, it means whatever anyone and everyone wants it to mean.

    To which you claimed that this is nonsense and that it has a very specific meaning.

    I never wrote that “it has a very specific meaning”. I wrote that, if a word can be defined to mean whatever anyone and everyone wants it to mean, like Humpty Dumpty, then that word is nonsense.

    So, again go to your dictionary and tell all of us what it means.

    It’s not my place to define what MGTOW means. I’m not a proponent, or an opponent of MGTOW (whatever that means). The proponents of something are the ones who get to define it. But even its proponents can’t agree on a definition. And now you’re saying that it can be defined however anyone and everyone wants to define it. Congratulations. You’ve rendered the word nonsense.

  229. Oscar says:

    @ Billy

    I wrote: I’m baffled as to why men who claim to have no interest in marriage or family frequent a blog specifically about marriage and family.

    I’m not saying anyone has to leave. I’m just confused as to why they’d voluntarily spend their time here in the first place.

    To which you replied:

    Because we care about the topic?

    By writing “we”, are you claiming to be one of the men who have no interest in marriage of family?

  230. Anonymous Reader says:

    aksion
    Bottom line, the MGTOW-bashers just don’t want to pay men what their surplus production is increasingly worth.

    This argument doesn’t even pass the laugh test. What’s your point, aside from trolling?

  231. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hamster
    You’re not a part of my society

    True. You belong to a kind of cult, where you swear unquestioning fealty to a Supreme Dark Lord, and apparently believe you have authority to order anonymous men on the Internet to do things and not do things. A society where you believe your LARPIng as some sort of Real Man has any effect on anyone else, where you can wish that other men would be shot and killed for disagreeing with you.That’s your “society”. Apparently it exists almost entirely inside your head.

    Likely your society looks rather like this:

    https://media.tenor.co/images/c586170a66239f968c6bb7e6cd489c66/raw

    The rest of us are not interested in your delusions, nor your ignorance, nor in your endlessly boring trolling for flames.

  232. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hamster’s society

  233. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hamster
    @Anonymous Reader

    Black pilling is tedious.

    True. At its worst, it is soul-poison.

    [other stuff]

    Don’t care.

    Oh, then you won’t mind seeing it again. Try reading it this time.
    HINT: Your Captain Internet Tough Guy act may fit in well at other blogs, I don’t know, but here it is laughable.

    No one cares what you want or read, Hamster. All you are doing with this screed is trolling the MGTOW’s, so I guess that what you want is for another endless comment thread where you and other Vox Day groupies screech at MGTOW and Day haters, making any real communication by men all but impossible.

    The statement above is accurate. I’m not surprised to see you run away in fear from it.

  234. BillyS says:

    Then I am not sure who you were targeting with that comment Oscar. Everyone here cares about what is discussed here to some point, even those who inject unrelated material. (RCC vs. Protestant for one) I won’t worry about it then though.

    SirHamster,

    Your society helped destroy my marriage and is actively working on destroying more. No marriage can escape from it, even if some women do (at least somewhat) fight against it. How much time do you spend chastising others for that aspect of the society you claim to be defending?

    7817,

    Most married men (and women for that matter) are going their own way as well. MGTOW just includes it in the name. You might learn some if you avoided the pedantic. And I am someone who tends to be very much that way, focusing on words and meaning. Listen more and you might really learn something, though you would have to back off from insulting so many.

  235. Red Pill Christianity says:

    I think I am about to walk into a minefield, but it goes:

    I respect both MGTOWs and Red Pilled Game practitioners (like myself). Both have valid concerns and valid views of life.

    Before I started my small group (which initially was a “church youth group” for men I reluctantly inherited) I used to think (incorrectly) that MGTOWs were all older guys who were fat or ugly and could not get any women without paying. I used to think these guys who work at bowling alleys who are fat, with 1980s style glasses, and pissed off constantly. *I was wrong.*

    But in my own small group, I have 2 guys who are in good physical shape, good looking (6 & 6.5-7), because one of the guys has almost a 4-pack as he plays baseball and is in good shape, tanned too. Both are good guys who understand Game and all. They get it, we have been talking Game and even doing in-field training sometimes.

    But both of these guys, whom I assume have normal to weak libidos as young males, see dating as “work”. They consider having a girlfriend “more work”, and they are MGTOWs in their early 20s!!!! Their focus is making money, education, and then “we will see”. Women is not a priority. Their argument for a Christian MGTOW lifestyle is voluntary celibacy. I get that. These two guys could definitely get some holes if they wanted to, with some Game practice.

    While I changed my views on who a MGTOW man is, I still have some issues with the lifestyle. I would not want to change anyone back to Game/TRP lifestyle, as I believe every man must choose his own path and must live with the consequences of his choices.

    **But here are some questions for the MGTOW guys (as I need to better understand the mindset if I am to successfully manage and grow my small group long-term with the rise of MGTOW):

    1) Isn’t celibacy, whether voluntary or involuntary, denying a man’s basic need/desire for sex with women?

    2) Why can’t a MGTOW have a woman whom he bangs, does not marry, and yet he lives his life pretty much on his own terms and by his own rules (so to speak)? I understand the pre-marital sex issue, but why should a man be denied such a basic biological need? Feminists created this mess; feminists created the divorce hell and the unfair courts.
    Why should a man be further punished with sexual deprivation given everything men already suffer in this society?

    3) Isn’t MGTOW, by definition, completely ignoring the future of our civilization, no matter how bad it has become? And by extent, it is a selfish lifestyle?

    4) Do MGTOW men not risk being totally alone later in life, if he takes The Black Pill and ends up without a family, few or no friends, and with nothing to live for?
    (I understand RP/Gaming men face that risk too, especially if they avoid marriage like me, but we at least engage with more people and form more relationships that can lessen this risk later in life).

    5) Can a MGTOW have a kid out of wedlock with a woman and raise the kid with her (live-in together or separately)?

    **I am going to say some things that will probably turn me into a pariah here, but here it goes:

    a) Celibacy is unnatural to men. That is why all Christian denominations, save for Catholics, allow their ministers to marry and have kids. God wanted women to be a helper to men, as described in Genesis.

    b) Marriage today is insanity. Kids are a big risk, but marriage is simply insane this day and age. If a man married today, he will have to have A+ Game going continually just to keep it together.

    And still, the woman holds all the cards in a marriage and she has virtually total control. She has the false criminal call card, the divorce rape card, the take your child away card, the sex withholding card, support from al sides, including church, courts, govt, police, and your “mutual friends” (translation = HER friends).

    c) One can choose to have a kid(s) even if not married. Is that under God’s Law? No, it is not. Neither is it God’s law for women to be allowed to falsely accuse men of crimes, be caught doing that, and suffering no consequences (Exodus 20:16 / Deuteronomy 19:18–19). We live in an imperfect world, one that is far beyond our control.

    d) MGTOW is not the solution to the Marriage scam and divorce crisis. Nor are they the solution to cultural malaise. But they are PART OF THE SOLUTION. Simple: supply and demand. The less men willing to date/marry/have kids, the better it is for RP/Game men.

    Eventually, the market will straighten itself out. It will be a long time, generational, perhaps, but will straighten itself out at some point.

    e) MGTOW men do not hurt Red Pill/Game Practitioners. So why attack them? Let them be.

    f) Clearly, the future of America and Western Civilization as a whole are very bleak. That is why I decided not to have kids. No point in the work and sacrifice to see them grow in such a messed up country, where women are wh0res, mudshark, are feminist, and fat and men are treated like 4th class citizens while criminal illegal aliens get massive welfare and privileges.

    g) That is not to say I have given up on having a good life, a comfortable life for myself. That is not gonna stop me from Gaming women. Giving up is the antitheses of The Red Pill and Game. Again, I cannot change this mess on my own, so I do what I have to do to survive and thrive on my own.

    h) I will do everything I can to be as good of a Christian as I can, trying to follow God as best as I can in every way that I can. Let Him be the judge when I die; let Him look at all circumstances at hand. I believe Christ is supreme and Savior, I have no doubts. But the mess we have today is simply beyond my control and only God can turn this ship around, it really is on God now, since as mere humans, we are tapped out and our enemies have almost total control of our societies now. No amount of denial can change that fact.

    Just some thoughts.

    Bottom line: I think the MGTOW vs Non-MGTOW discussion is not constructive, as MGTOW men do not interfere with Game practitioners and vice-versa. It is like Christians of different denominations attacking each other; it is counter-productive.
    So why attack MGTOWs at all?

  236. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Then I am not sure who you were targeting with that comment Oscar. Everyone here cares about what is discussed here to some point, even those who inject unrelated material. (RCC vs. Protestant for one) I won’t worry about it then though.

    So, is that a “yes”, or a “no”? Do you claim to have no interest in marriage and family? Because I was quite clear in that I referred to men who claim to have no interest in marriage and family.

  237. Oscar says:

    @ RPC

    But the mess we have today is simply beyond my control and only God can turn this ship around, it really is on God now, since as mere humans, we are tapped out and our enemies have almost total control of our societies now.

    Was that also true, or false, for 1st Century Christians living in the Roman Empire?

  238. Novaseeker says:

    Was that also true, or false, for 1st Century Christians living in the Roman Empire?

    Irrelevant question. Christianity finds itself not in that situation (although I know many Christians portray it that way). Unlike then, today Christianity is a known commodity, an entity with a history and a perception by everyone, and therefore not the new “anti-system” kid on the block that everyone who is against Rome can ally with simply to be against Rome. It’s a part of the old system against which people are rebelling.

    Current day Christianity is today’s paganism, per the current Zeitgeist. Until Christians understand this, and understand that “we should just do like the early Christians did!” isn’t a solution to the current problem, we will get nowhere.

  239. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Oscar: clearly, you are an educated guy and understand the dynamics of Christianity in the 1st through 4th Centuries in the Western Roman Empire.

    First off, while the Emperor and Christian bans back then were very loosely enforced. Simply put, the Emperor and his security (peacekeeping) legionnaire forces were often too busy fighting off slave rebellions, foreign attacks by the Persians/et al, and domestic unrest. As you well know, Judea was a hotbed of extremists and Zealots who continually tried to topple the Empire’s dominion over Judea.

    Christianity grew person to person, one on one for many centuries. The ability of local authorities to tamp down on the growth of Christianity was sporadic and often done to settle dispute with local Christian for noon-legitimate legal reasons (often resulting in imprisonment and/or death for many unrelated believers as well).

    Today, Christianity is under attack in much more effective ways. The Left and its tech and Globalist allies understand that to subvert the Church, they just need to do 3 things:
    1) demonize Christians in a globally available online environment and black list them to prevent them from becoming employed and being discriminated against) or from being hired in industries, from renting, from getting online accounts, etc. this is already happening quietly in legal field and openly done in Hollywood, for instance. Growing in popularity now for even CEOs to be fired over donations to Christian organizations, people who own a Chick-Fil-A, or as we saw with that ex-Mozilla CEO a small donation to CA anti-gay marriage prop got him fired.
    2) Infect the churches with feminism and globalist ideas. That will destroy source of available women for marriage. Check.
    3) Poison the culture to make people believe Christians are at fault for everything. We saw this in Germany in 1930s. Then continue with the assault, by doing things like putting out music videos promoting gay marriage making fun of Christians as dumb toothless rednencks (a la Taylor Swift), create shows like The Handmaiden’s Tale or “V” for Vendetta and so forth. In time, you turn an entire generation against Christians.

    Back in the Early Church days, there was a lot of cultural corruption in Roman society. But Christians lived in small communities with stable families, marriages that lasted (enforced by the same communities), and so forth. Christians could live with very small outside interference. They did that to an extent during Soviet Union era.

    But today, cultural corruption comes into your child from every angle, free, 24/7. On TV, from their schoolbooks, from their phones, from teachers, from news, from kindergarten… it is non-stop 24/7.

    We went from being the dominating faith in America and guardians of our civilization’s heritage, laws, and legacy to becoming pariah’s in 1 generation. Worst than during 2 Chronicles era.

    If you ever wonder why our Constitutional govt no longer functions as intended, remember it was John Adams who said this Constitution and govt can only work with a moral and religious people. You think we are that today, in large part?

    If you cannot see this, don’t know what to tell you. *shrug*

  240. Novaseeker says:

    And again we have self-described “Christians” in the comments of this blog advocating fornication, simply because they cannot be disciplined in what they perceive as “unique” times.

    Honestly, we are at a nadir in terms of comments. It’s horrifically bad currently.

  241. Oscar says:

    @ RPC

    I didn’t see a “yes” or “no” answer in that turgid bowl of word salad.

    Here’s what you wrote.

    But the mess we have today is simply beyond my control and only God can turn this ship around, it really is on God now, since as mere humans, we are tapped out and our enemies have almost total control of our societies now.

    Was the mess in the First Century simply beyond Christians’ control? Could only God turn that ship around? Was it really on God then? Were First Century Christians mere humans? Were they tapped out? Did their enemies have almost total control of their society then?

  242. Scott says:

    There definitely seems to be a change in what’s going on here.

    What theDeti dubbed the “clearninghouse of information” is giving way to…something else.

    Maybe it is inevitable since the reactions to what has been written her (and elsewhere) over the last decade + are as varied as the individuals themselves. Trying to contextualize what you read here into your preexisting moral framework is exhausting. Every thread now becomes a war between factions.

    As for me, I am obligated to provide my children with a childhood that does not scar them for life. And that means, by definition, having a social life. Piano, ballet, horseback lessons, sports, church etc. I do not hate any of these people who have regular access to my children. They are all loving, kind, genuinely interesting people. Yet, I can feel the social cost of learning things that you cannot unlearn. When the topic of our childrens futures comes up, it is not long until it becomes obvious that we are raising our sons and daughters with different expectations. This is unacceptable in polite company, Christian or not.

    On the other hand, I will not expose my kids to black-pilled responses to the situation at hand. If you have children, you have been exposed to this: Every morning, their bright little innocent faces look up to you with the hope that the world laid out before them is rational, and can be navigated competently. The burden is heavy in these times, but it has not gone away.

    This is the rub as I see it.

  243. Scott says:

    And when I say the burden is heavy in these times, I mean– There is absolutely zero help from the surrounding culture in your mission. I want them to play in woods, fall down, get hurt, have a best friend, hold hands and pass notes with their little boyfriends/girlfriends when the age hits, build an awesome 4×4 from the ground up, love God, meet someone, get married, have babies.

    The world wants them to learn about dildos and sex-change operations and kick ass girls and drag queens at the library and…

    And even all that going on around me, I have to try.

  244. goFigure says:

    @oscar,
    It’s not my place to define what MGTOW means. I’m not a proponent, or an opponent of MGTOW (whatever that means). The proponents of something are the ones who get to define it. But even its proponents can’t agree on a definition. And now you’re saying that it can be defined however anyone and everyone wants to define it. Congratulations. You’ve rendered the word nonsense.

    You give me a lot of power. All I do is listen to men who label themselves MGTOW. Then I listen to what they say it means. I have heard this term mean many things to many different men and sometimes completely opposite things for different men.

    I have no power to create the meaning of the word or to render it nonsense. I do have the power of listening. I think you could benefit from it as well.

  245. jg1 says:

    This blog is dead to me. The day the blog was taken over by ultra pious, holier than thou cultists from the Vox Day’s echo chamber, the comment sections have been derailed and no substantive discussions have taken place regarding the topic at hand. We, some of us new Christians come to blogs like these to seek truth and not to be insulted and talked down to by these arrogant commenters. The cultists who have taken over this blog seem to look more and more like feminists in drag where they seem arrogant and intolerant of opposing views. While accusing the other side as such. Never again will I visit this blog.

  246. Lost Patrol says:

    Every thread now becomes a war between factions.

    I used to think there were only two factions associated with the manosphere, one with the information and insights gained from participating, and one consisting of all others.

    When you were outside you probably lived within the metaphorical blue pill matrix, tried to do what you were told, and suffered the consequences in isolation; continuously puzzled and/or angered by developments in society, the church, and your own life. Certainly this was my own story.

    Once you were inside you changed faction. You learned, shared what you new or had discovered that contributed to the general knowledge base, and tried to assist those around you by passing along the benefits of having a clearer picture. I like to think this is me now.

  247. TheOtherScott:

    “I view the problem to be that the Church has dropped the ball.”

    Whenever I think about this, my blood pressure goes up. Indeed it has. And it is making the job of husbands harder. Every eye roll, every unfair jibe, every unforgiving lament and every lost opportunity for a wife to show grace (and respect) to her husband just makes marriage life more of a neverending dread than it really should be. I am just worried that there will come a day when the only thing that keeps my marriage going is … my son (now 11 months).

    But every passing week, there is a paucity of emphasis on the roles of a husband and wife from the pulpit in my church. Granted we are now going through the book of Hebrews but never in my four years here have I heard any part of any sermon that was preached emphasising the roles of both the husband and / or wife. Fellowship groups are co-ed; men-only sharing is almost non-existent. I have not seen anything activity or event where older women are giving the opportunity or responsibility to teach or advise younger women (and wives).

    As for the MGTOW debate, I am edging towards imparting some bits of red pill truths to younger Christian men. It’s not just about warning them. It’s about trying to help them remove the scales from their eyes about the society and how little it respects husbands and fathers. That they should choose carefully and wisely because every man only has one shot at marriage. It is only when they are somewhat open to such truth that I introduce Deep Strength and Rollo’s books to them and pointing them to this blog (which, I hope, will never go away).

  248. Anonymous Reader says:

    Red Pill C
    I think I am about to walk into a minefield,

    I’m pretty sure that few men read all the way through your tl;dr essays comments more than a couple of times. The turgid repetition likely sees to that. Plus you repeat yourself a lot. Is your blog going back online any time soon? Did I mention you repeat yourself a lot, using many words?

    By the way, not to get into theology, I do not see any logical way for a man to claim to be of the Christian religion and also a player spinning plates. I wonder how you rationalize that?

  249. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    I used to think there were only two factions associated with the manosphere, one with the information and insights gained from participating, and one consisting of all others.

    That was largely true when there were fewer participants. Deti’s point about age cohorts probably plays a role as well. There’s also IMO more frustration on the part of men in the 20 – 30 range because the social elites keep amping up the man-hate. It’s not so bad out here in flyover, but some of the coastal campuses are Orwellian shading into something Kafka would have written. It may not be coordinated, but it sure is visible. Riffing off of Scott up the thread, where did “Drag Queen Story Hour” come from and how did it become a “thing” from Massachusetts to Oregon in just a year or so? That’s not an accident, or a strange coincidence, it didn’t “just happen” like a toadstool in the front yard after a long week of rain.

    Anyway.

    With more participation in the manosphere, a wider range of personalities shows up. I guess that includes the net.equivalent of “Autistic MENSA member with zero social skills who talks loudly about Atheisim in every possible setting”. I actually knew someone like that back in college. For some strange reason, nobody wanted to be around him, including other Atheists & MENSA types. A total mystery.

    Sometimes reading comment threads is like encountering him all over again.

  250. SirHamster says:

    @BillyS

    Your society helped destroy my marriage and is actively working on destroying more. No marriage can escape from it, even if some women do (at least somewhat) fight against it. How much time do you spend chastising others for that aspect of the society you claim to be defending?

    It’s not my society that destroyed your marriage. I’m not chastising you or even others. I am judging ideas and actions.

    There are different societies at work. There are the worldly societies controlled by the evil one who is actively subverting everything good and promoting globo-homo values. There are the different strains of Christian societies that are heavily infected with those globo-homo values.

    The goal is to have a Christian society in the future. That involves building Christian community. It involves cleansing the existing churches or starting new ones. Christians shall continue meeting, encouraging and supporting each other until Jesus returns.

    I didn’t say you have a duty to perpetuate the evils in this world. But every Christian has a mission to make disciples – which is how Christian society continues.

    @Scott

    Every thread now becomes a war between factions.

    The West has an identity crisis. New identities and tribes are forming, and this is a function of that.

    The positive is that the conflict clarifies the choices and the stakes. Hope is necessary, as is faith and love.

    What is the hope of a MGTOW? Faith of a MGTOW? Love of a MGTOW? If they can find those answers, then they will have an enduring identity.

  251. American says:

    Men need to discard the social indoctrination of the left and the tradcon and see females for what they are: competition for scarce resources in the world. Treat them accordingly, like you would would males batting for another team. Reality is what it is not what you wish or think it should be.

  252. BillyS says:

    SirHamster,

    No other culture exists to defend. Prior western civilization is long gone.

  253. Anonymous Reader says:

    @BillyS

    Hamster’s just trolling for flames to jam comments up. He’s a driveby. Not worth your time.

  254. ZMAN says:

    @RedPill Christianity

    No doubt dude. Your story resonates with what I am seeing out here. You cannot trust any of these women! Ever! They will do the switchup on dudes. Straight up chameleons. These chumps out here, especially on this page have no clue and are still blue pillers pretending to be red. No help for them at all.

    My take is to just dominate and pound out these women if you got em and you better have multiple women on call in case one messes you up or bails on you. I even say if you get married you better have multiple women ready to go just in case your main bitch steps out of line. But most men now are such chumps that they won’t even consider it. If you don’t have a woman or you are jacked up, ugly, no money, w/e. then it is best to just go celibate and improve yourself if you want sex but if not then just opt out.

    We have to come to terms that this society encourages and allows women to engage in the most destructive behavior. As we can see once you allow this the society starts imploding rapidly. Quite frankly, there are no good women out here because this society stopped producing them. Instead of wives/mothers we have men with vaginas who are little more than walking time bombs waiting to ruin your life. Choose wisely. Yeah that girl claiming to be a Christian? Just had a train ran on her by a couple dudes last weekend in the dorm or at some party. LOL but she tells you she wants to take things slow….losers

  255. SirHamster says:

    No other culture exists to defend. Prior western civilization is long gone.

    Christianity began with 11 fearful Jews cowering from the Jewish establishment.

    Western Civ as we know it is dead. But Christians don’t believe death is the end, because we follow a resurrected Savior. A new Western Civ can be sown in the ashes of this one.

    One man sows, another man reaps, but God makes it grow.

  256. Anonymous Reader says:

    ZMAN
    These chumps out here, especially on this page have no clue and are still blue pillers pretending to be red. No help for them at all.

    Sigh. Another boring, lying troll.

  257. TheTraveler says:

    There is a whole lot of trash talking against men who get married, and it’s a pity. Marriage even in the best of times requires a certain courage from both parties, which is admirable. Even if the people are imperfect, it is still “an honorable estate, given by God Himself.”

    In these confusing and terrible times, no doubt many are called to be permanently single. But then, some are called to marriage–calling them “cucks,” “blue pillers,” and worse is not only unhelpful–it’s dishonest, toxic “menism”: “A man needs a wife like a fish needs a bicycle.”

    Someone has to replenish humanity, so it’s not just the various hordes reproducing. And while the stats about female number of partners vs. divorce are not encouraging, a 50% failure rate still means a 50% success rate. Chances are, a significant proportion of those on the successful side are religious women, trying to regain the righteous path.

    As for “NAWALT is invalid, ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT, so shut up with your cuck-boy denials, etc.”: men are influenced by their “other head”–but men can learn to be disciplined and not bang everything that moves although many would like to do so. The female analogue is “all women are whores who want only Chad.” Both are realities that are not universally true.

    Some of the recent, almost-crazed invective against marriage around here makes me wonder whether these are sincere posters, or provocateurs. If they are sincere, they seem deeply troubled. It seems as though every thread recently has been appropriated by the MGTOWs and their allies to hammer home their views, and take down anyone who disagrees.

    There is an old mid-century joke that I think applies here: A young man goes to work in an office full of female clerks, most of them young, good-looking, and on the lookout for a husband. The young man is deeply religious, and has decided (apparently unilaterally, without reference to The Almighty) to remain unmarried and “pure.” His boss who hired him is a member of his church, and the young man goes to his boss to describe how he’s rebuffing the advances of various girls (back when things were still sane, women took a lot of initiative, realizing that many decent men are clueless.) Finally, several months of attention from a particular redhead has our holy-MGTOW hero at the end of his endurance: “Boss, I’m afraid she’s almost worn me down. She’s irresistible! She’s gorgeous, pleasant, and her friends tell me she can really cook and clean–but I must stop myself! If I somehow manage to get away, what do you think will be my reward in heaven?” Said the boss, “A bale of hay, you jack*ss!”

    If one is called to marriage, one is obliged to follow through. As free will by BOTH parties is involved, not even God, Himself, can guarantee a good outcome. But marriage is the natural state. And even if following God’s intended path leads to horrific results (speaking from multiple (non marriage) experiences) there is peace of mind knowing you tried and did your best.

    P.S. Neither men–nor women (sorry, MGTOWs) are obliged to be perfect. Only as good as their own God-given limitations allow then to be. Becoming”menists,” plays right into the hands of the enemy.

  258. BillyS says:

    RPC,

    Living in a (very) sinful society does not justify sin. That is the core thing your comments overlook.

    Note that even the person who stole to avoid starving still has to repay 7-fold. The Christian man’s obligation is to do things in a godly manner. That may be incredibly hard, but the intent remains. We are given repentance for when we fail, but we should never intentionally fall short (sin).

    It looks like you are also making MGTOW and red-pill separate. Red-pill is not PUA. Nor is MGTOW.

    So why attack MGTOWs at all?

    It makes them feel better. Their “lord” has done so and they are following him as well. (VD, not Jesus.)

    Oscar,

    So, is that a “yes”, or a “no”? Do you claim to have no interest in marriage and family? Because I was quite clear in that I referred to men who claim to have no interest in marriage and family.

    Your point is still unclear. It is well past time for me to have a wife and family. An extreme outside chance exists I might have another wife, but that is highly unlikely and I will not consume myself with that goal. I may end up living with my son and family, but time will tell on that.

    I have an intense interest in these topics however. I saw the overall direction as bad prior to my divorce and I have been personally whacked by it since (and on the way to it, but that is another story).

    Do I have a right to speak here in your assertion or am I someone who should not be allowed here?

    Scott,

    You shouldn’t blast your kids with the black pill, but you better make sure they have a good grounding in reality or they are likely to have a huge fall when they finally hit the real world themselves. It really does suck, but that is where we are at.

  259. Acksiom says:

    >This argument doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

    Except, of course, for how it does.

    >What’s your point, aside from trolling?

    You premise is false, and my default position is to only answer questions reciprocally. But since I already know more about you than I want to just from your behavior, I have no questions for you through which you may earn such reciprocity.

    Of course, any time you want to actually address my actual points as actually made, you go right ahead and do so. But unless and until you do so, your airy, hand-waving assertions and lying personal attacks just serve to prove me right, because my model reliably and congruently explains your juvenile behavior.

  260. TheTraveler says:

    To all the MGTOWs:

    With all due respect, why don’t y’all go start your own blog? And hang out there? If people like your content and (yes, it’s important) tone, it’ll go well. If not…well, the world isn’t buying what you’re selling.

    Too many recent comment threads at this site have turned into MGTOW vs Everyone. Despair, gloom and doom, vicious invective. It’s getting old.

    Seems to me instead of working to create your own blog and reader base, you’re hijacking this one. Not cool. Debate is one thing–and your unending, single-issue obsession ain’t it.

    In my opinion, you’re ruining this blog. Possibly on purpose. Too many of you sound like the leftist opposition, with new and virulent MGTOW commenters popping up out of nowhere to add gasoline to the fire. Hmmm. I wouldn’t be surprised if a large percentage of you weren’t concern trolls sent here to ruin this highly effective blog.

  261. Dale U says:

    @TheTraveler
    a 50% failure rate still means a 50% success rate

    No, a 50% failure rate means:
    – 50% of marriages fail within the first 10 years
    – maybe an additional 15% fail after the first 10 years
    – maybe 20% more are marriages with a selfish wife, where the husband sticks it out because men are generally honourable and mature enough to be content where possible, or for the sake of his children/appearances/family/false religious ideas about a man not being allowed to leave the contentious woman (I did not write, “to divorce her”).
    – and that leaves 15% of marriages where the spouses are generally content. Unicorns, older generations, and first-generation immigrants are in this group.

    And I am married. Thanks be to God, she is showing herself to be a woman of tremendous character.

    If one is called to marriage, one is obliged to follow through.
    No, that is not right. 1 Cor 7:8-9 appears to support your idea, but the same chapter has these verses:
    36 If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed,[j] if his[k] passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin. 37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. 38 So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better.
    So the man has found a woman that he finds acceptable, and who whose father has also agreed to give his daughter to that man. The problem for many men is that 99% of women in Protestant “churches” are openly disobedient, even during “church service”, so he has very little chance to find a worthy woman. He can, of course, try to find an unworthy one but who also has a submissive spirit, and then give her the training that her father failed to give.
    My experience with orthodox churches is that many women there appear to be much better, so a man there should have better chances. But most people there are snobs who will not engage with anyone they do not already know. (Both men and women.) The anti-social nature of the people was a surprise to me, as (almost?) all Protestant and Jewish congregations I have been a part of had open socializing within the congregation, both after service and during other weekly events. The only people I could engage in conversation, for more than 60 seconds, was one older religious leader and the people who were already friends with my wife. Otherwise, I might as well have been calling out, “unclean, unclean”.
    I cannot comment intelligently on RC religious groups.

  262. Gunner Q says:

    SirHamster @ 1:20 pm:
    “The goal is to have a Christian society in the future.”

    You should have said “moral society” because Christianity cannot be coerced. Neither does Christianity guarantee mortal success. You talk as though God would never allow a “Christian society” to fail, yet USA itself is the proof of that.

    “What is the hope of a MGTOW? Faith of a MGTOW? Love of a MGTOW? If they can find those answers, then they will have an enduring identity.”

    I already have an enduring identity because of immortality, thank you. You can have this entire world if in return, Father God thinks I’m fun to have around.

  263. Oscar says:

    @ jg1

    This blog is dead to me.

    But… but…. how will this blog go on without you?

  264. Oscar says:

    @ goFigure

    I have no power to create the meaning of the word or to render it nonsense. I do have the power of listening. I think you could benefit from it as well.

    Do you have the power to apply the law of coherence to your thinking? Right now, the answer is “no”. But you could develop that ability, if you cared to.

  265. Oscar says:

    @ Oscar

    Your point is still unclear.

    It’s pretty clear, but for some reason you insist on arguing with straw men, instead of addressing what I actually wrote. For example…

    Do I have a right to speak here in your assertion or am I someone who should not be allowed here?

    I made no such assertion. It’s a figment of your imagination.

  266. American says:

    @Traveler, I’m going to say what I’m going to say even if it makes you uncomfortable. But I agree with you that the non-Christians screaming for all men to engage in wanton sexual immorality while rationalizing it because of is a very bad idea from our Christian perspective.

    But you need to understand that some of us have seen jaw dropping madness on the part of married Christian females, what they did to their families. I’m talking about “born again” church-attending Christian females with children married to a hard working Christian husband. Some began cheating with a male and some went lesbian with another female. They tore their families apart and used the courts to make war against their godly husband who didn’t do anything wrong.

    When you’re friends with these guys and see it happen up close, it’s hideous to watch. Imagine your wife filing divorce papers because she started banging your son’s little league coach and it ends with Coach living in your house, banging your wife, driving around your car, and calling your boy son who they’ve poisoned against you. I’ve seen that first hand and worse. Some men have to be MGTOW. Because even though my friend put up with all that and soldiered through it like a good beta, the truth is that some would end up on the six o’ clock news headed to prison for a life sentence. Not everyone’s going to take that sitting down. It’s wholly reasonable to avoid the problem altogether and make a good life for yourself.

  267. Emperor Constantine says:

    Anon said:

    “That is also another element of the screws tightening. A lot of men who were content to be a second or third husband are no longer obliging. It also means that a 37 y/o is finding it harder to land even a 52 y/o never-married man.”

    Or a man in his 40s and 50s dumped by his wife for cash and prizes and a HAWT boyfriend (who never seems to appear).

    All of my male friends in this age range absolutely REFUSE to legally remarry. They have LTRs or maybe play the field, but they DO NOT legally marry.

  268. ZMAN says:

    @AnonymousReader

    I am not a troll at all. Everything I state is true. It is quite obvious to me that by and large a lot of the men on here have very little experience with the young women of the day. I won’t state my line of work but it puts me directly in line with thousands of young people daily and I have a large group of people that I am acquainted with. Therefore, this information I share comes to me and I pay attention to what is going on.

    Most of the men here are delusional especially @TheTraveler. This is the type of dude to marry one of these mudsharks or born-again virgins. LOL Man up!!!!!

  269. feministhater says:

    With all due respect, why don’t y’all go start your own blog? And hang out there? If people like your content and (yes, it’s important) tone, it’ll go well. If not…well, the world isn’t buying what you’re selling.

    This is not your blog, it is not a MGTOW blog. It is an open blog that allows men to discuss freely their issues. You and your cliche friends are just as much to blame for dragging these arguments on. You don’t get to decide who is banned and who is not.

    MGTOW is growing, so yes, men are literally changing their lives. If this wasn’t the case, you wouldn’t be so upset at comments on a blog. Really.

    We will keep on telling men what you will never tell them. We are the thorn in your side.

  270. 7817 says:

    FH:

    We will keep on telling men what you will never tell them.

    This is a lie.

    I don’t sugarcoat the situation. I’ve warned men. But to go full blackpill is just to surrender to evil, just like lying to men and telling them everything will be ok. The truth is what matters.

  271. TheTraveler says:

    @American

    I’m not arguing with anything you say. I believe your horror stories. Those victim-men probably would tell you they felt called to marry the woman who so wronged them. It is pure evil what happened–and let’s not forget the scumbag men who helped the women.

    That is the ugly side of free will. A woman goes bad, victimizing her husband and kids.

    My point is that if a man feels truly called to marry (usually a specific woman), ignoring it typically leads to regret. There is no guarantee that things won’t get horrifically screwed up by someone else’s immoral exercise of free will. Bottom line, live life with no regrets, and deal with the future–however it may turn out–as it comes.

  272. TheTraveler says:

    @feministhater

    Your very name seethes with negativity and bile. Your posts are worse.

    You are a purveyor of despair and venom. I hope that you find peace. And that you stop subjecting the world to your obsessive, corrosive pathology.

  273. feministhater says:

    I don’t sugarcoat the situation. I’ve warned men. But to go full blackpill is just to surrender to evil, just like lying to men and telling them everything will be ok. The truth is what matters.

    Marriage is not a good deal at the moment. When you have a bad deal in front of you, you have three choices.

    1. Accept the deal. This is what tradcons have done for decades
    2. Try and renegotiate. Not possible given the current environment.
    3. Walk away.

    Tradcons have had decades to confront feminism, decades to renegotiate the vile contract currently masquerading as marriage but have done sweet, blow bugger all.

    Option 3 is what is left.

    Enjoy.

  274. feministhater says:

    Your very name seethes with negativity and bile. Your posts are worse.

    I will redouble my efforts to piss you off even more.

  275. feministhater says:

    Your very name seethes with negativity and bile….

    I take it you love feminists then. Haha! You can have them all, all the blue hair, hairy armpits, tattooed, land whales who screech constantly. You can have them all.

  276. feministhater says:

    Oh fuck, silly me.

    Option 4. Spend thousands of dollars on books and seminars to internet shills, marry a four, game that four for life and hope for the best.

    Yay! The only people here selling anything are those who literally include buying a fucking book as a ‘solution’ to the problem.

  277. ggh2980 says:

    Yes, men in general and MGTOW/redpill men in particular have a particularly intense level of learned helplessness these days. There is broad agreement that the legal standing of men in divorce, “domestic violence,” “sexual harassment” etc. should change. If you think this way, my minimum standard is: send $25 to a Men’s Rights organization of your choice; and write a letter expressing your views to your State Congressman (most of this is State law). Most State Congressmen don’t get a lot of feedback, and also their constituencies are relatively small, so they will probably read it. Mine sent a personalized response. It is true that this won’t change things right away. If there is change, it will probably be too late for all of us, but perhaps a younger generation will benefit. But, so what? It is only $25 and a letter. If you aren’t willing to do even that, you deserve exactly what you get.

    The level-up version is: if there is no State-focused MRA organization that you can find, start one. Most of this is State law, so a group that focuses on Pennsylvania only is appropriate and is not spread too thinly. You can do this on the weekend.

  278. 7817 says:

    FH:

    Books are only helpful for those capable and desirous of learning.

  279. Liz says:

    FH, what is your objective? I understand the objective of most folks, but not black pillers.
    What is the goal you have in mind?

  280. feministhater says:

    What is the goal you have in mind?

    I have never, ever called myself black pilled. The question is thus disingenuously asked.

  281. Liz says:

    My apologies…I’m just going by the course of conversation. I’m still curious what you’re trying to accomplish. Genuinely.

  282. Liz says:

    Just to add (to get it over with), Let’s assume everyone else is a moron. I’m a moron, everyone you disagree with is a moron. You’ve successfully argued everyone into the ground and “won”. Everyone admits they are wrong and you are right.
    What happens next?

  283. feministhater says:

    To simply be a voice that speaks against current day marriage.

    It is a bad deal. There are no two ways about this. A bad deal needs to be avoided. When others advise to just do it, go for broke and risk it. I just rat them out.

    Unless and until the marriage contract is as God said it must be, it is a con, a sham, not the real deal.

    Only by withdrawing from the current contract, do we ever stand a chance to revert back to the original. The continued willingness of society and the church in general to engage in modern day marriage just means it will continue unabated.

    When someone reads a bad contract, they can either pretend it doesn’t exist and go about their day or they can warn others not to sign on the dotted line.

    This is the problem. Why are you worried about MGTOW? As people have pointed out numerous times, it’s blooming obvious MGTOW have a point. Instead of accepting that and actually confronting society and feminists, fighting them to fix the reasons for MGTOWs being a thing, tradcons would all rather spend their precious time on a blog, attacking and shaming others for walking away from a provably bad fucking contract.

  284. feministhater says:

    What happens next?

    One could ask this question of the tradcons. One could ask this question of the feminists, the communists, the socialists, the social justice warriors, just about everyone you ever have an argument or disagreement with.

    I don’t know. I am not a clairvoyant.

    Your question should rather be. What is the problem?

    Is it MGTOW men or society.

  285. feministhater says:

    Quite simply. If the problem is MGTOW. Then we are all losers and we just help you all by removing ourselves, increasing the chances of real men and real women to find each other and start families.

    However, if the problem is society, attacking MGTOW, shaming them and spitting venom at them only hurts you. In the end, the real problem has not been solved, you’ve only attacked those who decided to shine a light on it.

  286. Liz says:

    Thanks FH, for the considered response.
    I agree with much of what you said and understand where you are coming from better now.

  287. Liz says:

    Just to add, I can only speak for myself, but I think a lot of these disagreements happen due to the perception of a lack of hope. Hope is a powerful thing, and I think it’s usually a force for good. Hope isn’t a strategy, but without it things can look pretty dismal.
    (just stating the obvious) We’re all coming from different places which impact our perceptions.

  288. 7817 says:

    Is it MGTOW men or society.

    Why not both?

    It’s definitely society, and the blackpill version of mgtows are a problem too.

    There’s no issue with some men choosing not to marry, but when a group of men decides to do everything they can to take hope away, and rejoices when someone else checks out, that’s completely blackpilled. That is a celebration of despair.

  289. feministhater says:

    There’s no issue with some men choosing not to marry, but when a group of men decides to do everything they can to take hope away, and rejoices when someone else checks out, that’s completely blackpilled. That is a celebration of despair.

    Once again, it is you who fail to understand.

    It is a reason to be happy when someone checks out of a bad contract. This is not despair, unless you have a vested interest in the sham known as modern day marriage.

  290. TheTraveler says:

    @FH
    Anyone who disagrees with you and your toxic output is ipso facto a lover of feminists. Yeah, right–whatevs.

    Feminists say outrageous, venomous things to get attention. Just like you. Maybe you hate them so much because you see the flip side of yourself.

    I couldn’t care less if you spend the next half-century marinating in your own poison. I do deplore that you routinely hijack the comments section here to proselytize for your pathologies.

  291. Anonymous Reader says:

    ZMAN
    These chumps out here, especially on this page have no clue and are still blue pillers pretending to be red. No help for them at all.

    Then:

    ZMAN
    I am not a troll at all. Everything I state is true. It is quite obvious to me that by and large a lot of the men on here have very little experience with the young women of the day.

    Your second statement shifts the goalposts from an implied “all” to ‘some”, a goalpost shift that is common both in trolls and those who do not think but prefer to emote.

    Either way you aren’t solving a problem, your’e complaining about it and encouraging others to do the same. What’s your point? Why are you here at all?

  292. TheTraveler says:

    @Dale U

    Did the Bible tell you specifically:
    – What profession to pursue?
    – Which house to buy?
    – What woman to marry?

    No. The Bible gives guidelines for living a Christian life.

    But if you believe God knows you even down to the number of hairs on your head (MT 10:30, LK 12:7) you presumably believe He is a real presence in your life, and accordingly will give you guidance how to live.

    Some are called to be married, even in these evil times, to multiply God’s peoples. Many are not so called. One must discern, and act accordingly.

  293. feeriker says:

    @ Liz

    … I think a lot of these disagreements happen due to the perception of a lack of hope. Hope is a powerful thing, and I think it’s usually a force for good. Hope isn’t a strategy, but without it things can look pretty dismal.

    It really depends on what you’re hoping for. If you’re hoping that society is going to magically wake up one morning, open its eyes, realize how abominably it has been behaving, and start on a path toward righteousness and redemption, then you’re going to be bitterly disappointed. Indeed, Scripture, particularly the messages in the Book of Apocalipsis (a.k.a. Revaluation) tell us in no uncertain terms that things are not only NOT going to get better, but are going to get much, MUCH worse than we can imagine. So if you’re putting any hope in humanity, that’s a losing strategy.

    All a Christian can do is place every ounce of hope and faith in Jesus, and even then the battle to resist giving in to complete despair is going to be constant. Any Christian, male or female, who is sincerely trying to follow Jesus and live his or her daily life in accordance with the Word is going to live an incredibly lonely and difficult life, not the least reason being that he or she is surrounded on all sides by pretenders to the Faith who will shame them mercilessly for not living in accordance with the world’s destructive ways and just “faking it” in terms of the Christian walk.

    All of that said, if you were to engage any Christian man going the MGTOW route in lengthy dialogue and eventually ask him why he has chosen that path, he will in all probability tell you that it’s the last path that he ever wanted to choose, and that if he were surrounded by TRUE Christians who walked the talk, then he wouldn’t be on this path. The ugly reality, however, is that he is almost alone in his walk, a stranger in a strange land, the lone sane man in an open-air lunatic asylum spanning thousands of miles. In that environment he protects himself from the toxic reality around him by avoiding danger (a course of action that in bygones ages was known in the vernacular as “common sense”) while relying on God, who is sometimes quite literally his only friend and ally in the world. It’s not a pretty sight to those on the outside who are so immersed in the status quo that they can’t see it for what it is, but it’s both a logical and righteous course of action. That it appears as “bitterness” to such people only demonstrates how inured to the world they truly are.

    TL;DR version: If you’re going to hope, place that hope in Jesus, but don’t expect that to earn you anything but hatred from the world at large, and thus a miserable temporal existence (that is to say, “life on earth ain’t gonna get any better”). That, however, doesn’t matter to someone placing their full hope and trust in Jesus.

  294. ZMAN says:

    @anonymousreader

    Because I went from “these chumps out here” to “by and large a lot of men” that equates to me moving the goalposts? You are seriously looking way too into this man. I am not trolling anyone. I still stand by my assertion that most of you on here are chumps and these women obviously are just using and abusing a lot of you which I feel for you guys because this society is totally screwed up. I’m not trying to “blackpill” anyone either but the situation at hand is grim. Perhaps we can agree to that? Anyways, I am trying to share this information with others, you can choose to do with it what you wish.

  295. Anonymous Reader says:

    ZMAN
    Because I went from “these chumps out here” to “by and large a lot of men” that equates to me moving the goalposts?

    Yes, for the obvious reason that the first statement was a sweeping generalization, while the second was not. “All” and “some” are not synonyms. That isn’t even elementary logic, it’s grade school English reading.

    You are seriously looking way too into this man. I am not trolling anyone.

    Your text is clearly an attempt to generate flames and/or despair. That’s textbook trolling.

    I still stand by my assertion that most of you on here are chumps and these women obviously are just using and abusing a lot of you which I feel for you guys because this society is totally screwed up.</i

    Ok. So? How about you discuss the various men over the years who have spent some time in comments, gotten a marriage out of the hole and gone on with their lives? Oh, wait, you can’t because you don’t know about that, because you’re a newbie who knows everything but actually knows nothing.

    I’m not trying to “blackpill” anyone

    Lol! Self contradict much?

    either but the situation at hand is grim.

    So you haven’t read anything here for the last 10 years, but now you are going to tell a bunch of men you know nothing about “how it is”. Do you see anything arrogant in your attitude?

    Perhaps we can agree to that? Anyways, I am trying to share this information with others, you can choose to do with it what you wish.

    You are not just “sharing”, you are “despairing”.

    Plus, of course, you are still lying. Personally, I don’t like liars.

  296. 7817 says:

    > most of you on here are chumps
    >these women obviously are just
    >using you
    >abusing you
    >society is totally screwed up
    >situation grim
    >not trying to “blackpill” anyone

  297. feministhater says:

    Feminists say outrageous, venomous things to get attention. Just like you. Maybe you hate them so much because you see the flip side of yourself.

    Coming from someone who calls MGTOW every name in the book. Incredibly rich. Listen. We are not friends. We are enemies. Why do you think I should give a crap what you think or do?

    Are you going to jump on the hamster bandwagon and call for MGTOW to be shot as deserters too?

    Hell, you guys are hilarious. You are here, literally wasting your fucking time. Haha! Nothing you do on this forum matters. It’s not the place to find the solutions you are looking for. I have found my solution so I am free to enjoy my time here.

    I told this forum ages ago that the solution to the problem of societal degradation isn’t found skulking on internet forums, it isn’t found in trying to save the millennial generations or in getting men to marry used up thots. You have to start small, you have to create your own communities that police their own. You have to raise a new generation without the crap of the current ones.

    I can’t do more than that. My generation is lost. Stop wasting your energy and use it elsewhere.

  298. Mountain Man says:

    Oooh, goodie! Another internet argument. Think I’ll jump into the fray for some lol’s.

    To FH, and anyone else who is interested,
    I’m pretty sure TheTraveler is a woman … not that there’s anything wrong with that. Perhaps I’m mistaken, but he/she/it certainly seems to think and writes like a woman. I have found that if you read TheTraveler’s comments in a woman’s voice, they tend to make more sense. Give it a try and see if you agree.

    To TheTraveler,
    I agree that FH’s comments sometimes lay on the despair and hopelessness a little too thickly, but I personally have found more value in his comments than in yours.

  299. Anonymous Reader says:

    feministhater
    Hell, you guys are hilarious. You are here, literally wasting your fucking time. Haha! Nothing you do on this forum matters. It’s not the place to find the solutions you are looking for. I have found my solution so I am free to enjoy my time here.

    So after all these years it turns out you are just here to troll for flames and nothing else?
    Huh. I thought you were smarter than that.

  300. feeriker says:

    @FH

    I wouldn’t waste any more time or energy engaging the Bealeite minions who troll here. The fact that all they can do is hurl shame and insults tells you that they have nothing substantive with which to rebut your points. They’re fighting a losing battle against the prevailing secular culture and this why they are the ones in despair; their accusations against you of the same thing are pure projection.

    While the Bealeite Führer claims to be a Christian, his obsession with worldly social order Über Alles belies that claim. His minions are simply echoing the Mein Neuer Kampf dogma.

  301. feministhater says:

    So after all these years it turns out you are just here to troll for flames and nothing else?

    Read again. What I wrote is true. The solutions they want are not going to be found here so indeed they are wasting their time. This is not trolling. I found my solution here because I found the ability to go my own way. Something I can do without having to rely on others. The solution they are looking for requires them to not to squander their time on a forum searching for something that isn’t to be found here but instead to create the community they need to have successful marriages and families.

    It is paramount that people here learn something quite valuable. You can indeed read here, take in information and change your life, however, you cannot expect that the solution to a complex problem such as societal decay, lack of marriageable partners and the lack of Religion is to be found on a damn internet forum…. come on, I’m trying hard to get your guys position here..

    You won’t find it here.

  302. American says:

    @TheTraveler (September 14, 2019 at 8:37 am): I’m glad you understand such scenarios are common in the major metropolitan area that I live in. Now I’ve seen the other side as well. I know two men who are married to pastor’s daughters that were raised rightly in a Christian home with their parents correctly modeling marriage within the Christian worldview. They both married Christian men, never rebelled against God/parents/husband, actually are good wives and mothers, and violated their wedding vows. Both of their marriages that are coming up on their twenty-five year mark. But there just aren’t enough of them to go around. They represent about 0.00000001% of the SMP. Feel me?

  303. Jim says:

    feeriker says:
    September 14, 2019 at 3:56 pm

    @FH

    I wouldn’t waste any more time or energy engaging the Bealeite minions who troll here. The fact that all they can do is hurl shame and insults tells you that they have nothing substantive with which to rebut your points. They’re fighting a losing battle against the prevailing secular culture and this why they are the ones in despair; their accusations against you of the same thing are pure projection.

    Yes. 100% pure projection. You win the thread feeriker.

  304. TheTraveler says:

    @FH
    Yes, we are enemies. With your venom, despair, and hopelessness, you are a servant of darkness. Don’t put words in my mouth–I know lots of bad words, which I haven’t even begun to (lower myself to) use on you here.

    So, posting here is a huge waste of time–says the provacateur who practically lives here–clearly, you are intentionally trying to disrupt/destroy this space.

    @MountainMan
    I am honored by your statement. I find little value in anything you say, too.

  305. Minesweeper says:

    @TheTraveler says:”Hmmm. I wouldn’t be surprised if a large percentage of you weren’t concern trolls sent here to ruin this highly effective blog.”

    Sounds exactly like you. When did you appear again ?

  306. Minesweeper says:

    Back to the OP.

    You have to laugh at the feminist insanity.

    Feminists\Women : we want equal pay for everything even if we do less.
    Also Feminists\Women : we want you to earn 58% more before we find you attractive.

  307. Frank K says:

    Feminists\Women : we want equal pay for everything even if we do less.
    Also Feminists\Women : we want you to earn 58% more before we find you attractive.

    AKA: Fried Ice

  308. TheTraveler says:

    @Minesweeper

    On and off for about a year. Nice gaslighting.

  309. BillyS says:

    MGTOWs didn’t take the hope away. It is amazing anyone could claim that with a straight face.

  310. BillyS says:

    American,

    They both married Christian men, never rebelled against God/parents/husband, actually are good wives and mothers, and violated their wedding vows.

    Did you mean “didn’t violate their wedding vows”? That fits the rest of what you said better, but I may be missing something.

  311. American says:

    Typo. They never violated their wedding vows. Thanks for pointing it out BillyS.

  312. Minesweeper says:

    @American, Its good to see success, particularly Scott who seems to be knocking it out the park, remarried with a wife having kids building a ranch in the mountains of Montana or somewhere. That’s living the dream.

    For the guys who did have kids and went through a ruinous frivorce, the pain from losing your usual contact with your kids and that their life is now is now in the hands of a off the wall nutcase, really will put you off very strongly from ever going there again.

    I’d go for a Godly marriage, but never a government contracted one – (I don’t know what Scott did) – maybe in a restricted community with very strong bonds and accountability could you sign the gov contract and sleep at night.

    Women : We want security in marriage !
    Also Women : We want to be able destroy you in a heartbeat.

    As Dalrock says above, its still surprising you men are still preparing themselves for marriage, I can only assume that enough feminists\betacucks are suppressing the truth.

    And the truth will out !

  313. Liz says:

    I know a lot of couples in very long term happy marriages. It’s not that rare in my circle of acquaintances/friends. The question then might be…”oh yeah, how do you know they’re happy?” Well, they seem happy but no one really knows do they? Same for singles. You never know what anyone is going through, really.
    I suspect that if everyone (or most everyone) my circle of friends were only single, I would see a different version of reality. Because single people are either never married or divorced (and it’s unusual not to have a bad backstory with a divorce).

  314. Minesweeper says:

    @Liz, you got many divorced friends particularly the males ? Or do you know of many in your church say ?

  315. Liz says:

    We’ve moved around a lot, so it varies.
    Some of the married people we know are in second marriages, most of our current (military) circle of friends are married and not divorced. But, it’s been different throughout our lives.
    We’ve been in squadrons (early years) where we were the only non-divorced couple.
    Last assignment, divorces in our immediate circle of friends (maybe…I don’t know, 40 couples or so) were really rare.
    All our neighbors are longterm married people (we’ve lived on this mountain a year now), Six couples in about a quarter mile area, they’re all married longterm. Most are on their first marriage. One remarried couple, and one was a widower who remarried about 15 years ago.

  316. Liz says:

    Think pilots overall have higher than average divorce rates (especially the civilians..some really bad stories there).

  317. Minesweeper says:

    @Liz, your not part of a church for now ?

    Oh have you heard the latest re 737Max debacle ? MCAS was implemented to just give pressure on the stick at the ends of the 737Max performance envelope. to just make the stick feel heavier when moving it. So not a safety feature in anyway, it was just to ensure the same type rating as the stick felt light in those scenarios. A $1000 motor could have done the same thing.

    Pretty horrible really.

  318. Liz says:

    Last church we attended (and were members of) was about 11 months ago. It was a base church, full of retirees so that average age was about 70. Doesn’t really count. 😆
    I haven’t heard of the latest…737Max problem! I’ll ask my husband when he gets up.

  319. Minesweeper says:

    @Liz, he will prob know about it already, it doesn’t appear to be public knowledge yet. But it would have spread like wildfire through the pilot community prob when it first happened.

    Interestingly enough, MCAS does what it says on the tin : Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation.

    Not anti stall.

    Just altering the maneuvering characteristics of the aircraft – (to the pilot control column).

  320. Minesweeper says:

    @Liz,re your prev church, check our dals graph above for the 70’s age range, looks pretty good 😀

  321. Liz says:

    Heh, I asked him and (like you suspected) he knew about that. There’s an FO who might get indicted. He was a chief technical pilot for Boeing.

  322. Minesweeper says:

    @Liz, Good, well tbh Boeing is essentially a new organisation in the last 8 years, they slewed off a huge number of long term aircraft engineers (most) who really knew what they were doing.

    Outsourced much to contractors who don’t seem to hold themselves to “aircraft tolerances” and they don’t care either.

    its just a cash cow now for those in charge. The engineers have left the building.

    Its not just MCAS/737max, they have a litany of problems now.

    A lightening bolt needs to go from the 737max team to the top and the whole lot need to go.

  323. Red Pill Christianity says:

    @ZMAN

    Isn’t it wild? What bothers me is that the woman I dated (and knew over the years) was able to pull this whole thing off (delete and conceal) the last 15 years of her real life, have a total online clean-up, move back home to her very nice small town in Midwest and marry this cat and have a kid with him. Just like that, she was Ms. Perfect again. I really doubt her husband knows the whole story (and it is too late for him, they are married and seem happy on online pics and have a kid together, no way I would expose her!).

    My issue is that there is a lack of full disclosure and lack of honesty when it comes to these issues with women. There is zero consequence to their lifestyle choices (bad decisions after bad decisions for most of their adult life). Flip a switch and get married anyway after age 33, a bailout when she damn well wants it. This is why women continue to do this; idiot Betas will wife them up regardless. So what is the downside?

    If the downside was a “life alone” after say age 30 for wasting their best years in the c0ck carrousel, I assure you, fewer women would go down this road. Consequences change behavior.

    I encourage men today to completely avoid college girls. These almost always have triple the mileage of non-college girls. Colleges have become alcohol and wh0ring training camps for women. It is a free for all c0ck buffet for her. But after college, some sucker gets the rotten food leftovers.

    I think the only “solution” for guys wanting to wife-up or LTR and have a kid is to pay a PI to run a full and comprehensive life-long background check on her, one of those with “known associates” and do some research and then ask her about it. Find out who her “known associates” are (these will include roommates, dudes, she lived with, guys who shared financillay with her, etc). Use the extensive info and then ask her about it. If she lies, walk away, because now you know what/who she is about. Walk away or stay accordingly.

    RP WISDOM: Whenever a women tells you “I just want to take things slow with you” it translates to –> “I have 4 other dudes on rotation” and one just nutted in her.
    Any guy in the “take things slow” camp is just a step up from FreindZone, but he is an active target of her financial support scam. When the other guy’s child is born you will be under pressure to to sign the birth certificate. You will also be reminded that “how dare you ask or DNA paternity test? Don’t you trust me?” *fake tears*

    Funny, but a brutal truth. This stuff is so common out there now these days that I just laugh.

  324. feministhater says:

    ….Boeing is essentially a new organisation in the last 8 years, they slewed off a huge number of long term aircraft engineers (most) who really knew what they were doing.

    Outsourced much to contractors who don’t seem to hold themselves to “aircraft tolerances” and they don’t care either.

    its just a cash cow now for those in charge. The engineers have left the building.

    A snapshot of the entire West to be honest.

  325. Novaseeker says:

    his is why women continue to do this; idiot Betas will wife them up regardless. So what is the downside?

    Indeed. Despite what all of the manosphere guys say and want, the reality is that pretty much any woman who wants to get married will successfully marry, as long as she adjusts her expectations appropriately and is not too picky and/or does not wait too long (i.e., into the later 40s and beyond … 35 is not “waiting too long” in coastal metros in 2019, guys, in terms of women not finding mates … sorry but just is so …).

    The thirst is real. Betas will put up with almost anything. The ones who end up not marrying are the ones who are so picky that they can’t settle or the ones who wait so long that even the settles are not settle-able any longer.

    The imbalance in desire fuels this. Men desire sex. Most betas only get sex in relationships and marriages, so most of them want to get married. Women know this and deploy it to get what they want. Rinse, repeat. The system is guaranteed to continue as long as there are enough betas who have enough to offer women so as to be interesting targets for marriage. It certainly won’t end due to some kind of mythical “marriage strike” by betas … too much thirst for that. It’s only outliers who strike.

  326. Scott says:

    Minesweeper-

    I am moved by your description of my situation. I don’t know much about “knocking it out of the park” but it sounds cool.

    20 ish years ago, about 4 months after being hit with the news that my marriage was over, I laid there on the floor of my place. The place we had lived in together for 8 years. I had a masters degree in something I could not use. I had sold everything–all my guns, my motorcycles, power tools–just to keep paying the rent. I had stopped working and was in a full blown major depressive episode. I was 29 years old. This is the moment Rollo calls being “zeroed out.”

    As I was lying there, I heard the sound of the air conditioner whirring, the wind outside, and my dog licking his foot next to me. Time seemed to stand still. I felt nothing. It was surreal. And I had this thought. “No way is the story over. No way am I going to let this define me and destroy my life.”

    That day I decided to go to the army recruiting office and jump start my life. Everything that followed–going back to graduate school, getting married, finishing an army career, buying this land, building this place started from that one moment. Get up. Don’t lie here for one more second. You aren’t dead yet.

  327. BillyS says:

    Minesweeper,

    Skipping the government certificate of marriage will have no impact on your marriage. You may hope for it to avoid some things, but a judge will imply marriage if the worst happens and you will then be hosed. That can and does happen with children as well, no matter what the relationship with the mother is.

    The system is out to rake men over the coals and too few Christians realize that today and push back in the slightest.

  328. BillyS says:

    Liz,

    I am the type that can’t completely hide who I am at the core, so you would know the truth if I were in your circle of friends. I am working hard on stifling that though since most people, even Christians who should reach out to others more, don’t give one hoot about what others are going through. They may help them in a token amount, but they ultimately don’t want to invest any emotional energy even to be a true friend.

    That is why so few know what is going on in the lives of others.

  329. Minesweeper says:

    @Scott, “knocking it out the park”

    “In baseball, a ball is pitched to a batter whose goal is to try and hit the ball as hard as possible. Ideally, the batter wants to knock “it” (the ball) out of the park. Doing so would result in a home run, allowing the batter to safely run to first, second, and third base and finally back to the home plate, thus scoring a “run” for his team.
    Obviously, it’s not easy to knock the ball out of the park. It requires the batter to strike the ball exceptionally well, but if they succeed at doing it, then they did a great job. Thus, this literal thing that a batter would do in baseball eventually went on to be used figuratively for when someone does an exceptional job at anything—it’s as if the person is a batter and they “knocked it out of the park.”
    Anyways, the earliest appearance of this saying in print that I could find is from the late 19th century. Unsurprisingly, the term is used in a literal sense and in relation to baseball”

    https://knowyourphrase.com/knock-it-out-of-the-park

    keep doing it ! 😀

  330. Scott says:

    Ah, yes. I am aware of the phrase. I am an American who grew up playing baseball.

    I just feel humbled by the description.

    To continue with the analogy, I have made so many unforced errors along the way that I have to pinch myself every day in the disbelief that I made it this far.

    I live each day as if tomorrow is not assured, yet I am trying to prepare my kids for whatever is coming. I have a huge appetite for risk, inherited from my father. All of that combined PLUS being surrounded by people who never seem to give up on me has resulted in a dream that I don’t want to wake up from.

  331. feeriker says:

    A snapshot of the entire West to be honest.

    Ain’t that the freaking truth?

    Anybody who would deny that ALL of our western institutions –economic, religious, social, whatever– are in a state of accelerated collapse is either a liar, profoundly mentally retarded, or so deeply deluded/rectalcranially inverted that they aren’t even living on the same planet as the rest of us.

  332. feeriker says:

    BillyS says:
    September 15, 2019 at 2:17 pm

    That portion of Scripture that commands believers to “bear one another’s burdens” (Galatians 6:2) has been torn out of the churchian bible, along with everything pertaining to male headship and Christian marriage.

  333. Minesweeper says:

    @Scott,

    I raise my glass to you Sir.

  334. Opus says:

    In England only girls play Rounders which is what we call Baseball and girls clearly are incapable of hitting it out of the park. The equivalent English expression is hit it for six, six being your score in Cricket when you knock it out of the park.

    Today’s lesson in Game – not: it is about eleven o’clock and I am in my supermarket in the checkout line. An older man lower-middle class I would say is in front of me and faffing about and then as he is about to leave (at last) enquires of the Chinese checkout lady, a nice woman in her late thirties, as to whether she is married. She is, of course, embarrassed and of course can make only one reply (which I am sure was truthful) that yes she was indeed married. The man behind me and of similar vintage to the one in front then banters with the check-out China-woman that she is being chatted up. I cringed to the first male and then cringed again. If it had been a pick up attempt it was inept and ruined further by the second guy and if not it was merely impertinent. Far too many Blue Pill Betas around. I suppose in America they could call it sexual harassment. The Han are less aggressive.

    My once friend ditched his wife of thirty years for a younger woman. After a while his wife found a new boyfriend. He was so she had said as she achieved that make-over form frumpy to hawt (not that I find her the least bit attractive – frankly quite annoying) the best friend she had ever had but obviously earlier this friend had received multiple benefits (which is more than her husband had of late). Now, however, the boyfriend has gone from hero to zero and scares her for he has been texting her hundreds of times a day offering her matrimony. Beta thirst is insatiable.

  335. Westray says:

    —-Is it MGTOW men or society.
    Why not both?
    It’s definitely society, and the blackpill version of mgtows are a problem too.—-

    It CAN’T be both. If society is ‘definitely’ (your word) a mess, then how can men be criticized for going MGTOW? You acknowledge that society is a mess, so it’s case closed. You can’t also criticize men for avoiding something you’ve already condemned. MGTOW is the logical response of intelligent men living their life and following their own imperatives to the best of their ability. You actually complete half of the MGTOW move anyway with your assessment of society. You either didn’t or currently can’t finish off the second half. My guess is that you’re trapped in a marriage and you can’t stand that some guys skipped out on the misery you’re going through. Maybe you’re a pervy tradcon with an aged out wife, like McCain? Basically, only apex alphas and dummies would be the only ones not going MGTOW at this point.

    You add ‘blackpill’ just to amplify things and add degrees to MGTOW which is impossible. It’s men going their own way. You can’t grade it out. The ‘blackpill’ label is basically name calling and owning the definition to win the argument. Cheap move. A move one resorts to when logic falters. ‘Blackpill MGTOW’ are simply the ones who have vocalized their reasons why. A simple MGTOW is a would-be Blackpill MGTOW who simply keeps his mouth shut.

  336. Novaseeker says:

    In England only girls play Rounders which is what we call Baseball and girls clearly are incapable of hitting it out of the park. The equivalent English expression is hit it for six, six being your score in Cricket when you knock it out of the park.

    Such grade inflation is clearly a sign of the moral degredation of the mother country, sadly. SIX runs for a mere hit over the wall is absurd. And providing FOUR runs for hitting it anywhere, even behind you, and merely reaching the wall, is equally absurd, morally degrading grade inflation.

    Why, even in our girly rounders remake sport, we do not award a damn thing for one’s ball reaching the wall, and in fact if it is hit behind you it counts as a strike against you, not as a run, for goodness sake.

  337. Minesweeper says:

    @Opus, once again, you make me laugh ! Hilarious.

    Keep it up !

  338. Opus says:

    I have never seen a Baseball Game but would I be correct in thinking that a Cricket pitch is much larger than a Baseball pitch for as Novaseeker correctly says one can indeed gain four runs (a four) by hitting the ball to the boundary and without any further physical effort including by hitting the ball behind one? My brother was opening bat for the school and he said that hitting the ball behind him was his only shot (the cut). One has to be pretty brave or in his case reckless to be opening bat because other than ones pads, gloves and box there is no protection from the ball which is made of willow and the fast bowlers are always the first on. The Bowler unlike the Pitcher in Baseball delivers his ball whilst running which can only increase the speed of the delivery and one can never be quite sure how the ball is going to bounce off the ground. Indians (curry) are famed for their ability at Spin. The pitch is twenty-two yards long between the two wickets and the grass has to have a crew-cut which means that it is quickly turns to bare earth at least around the wickets and thus an adjoining rectangle is put into service and so by the end of the season the entire ‘square’ will have been used up and so the distance between the wickets and the boundary changes not merely from ground to ground but from game to game. The ground at Canterbury is so quirky it even has a large Oak tree inside the dimension of the pitch.

    The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton at least according to Arthur Wellesley whose Aunt used to live opposite my local pitch though frankly I think it might have had as much to do with the Prussians though strangely Germans school children are apparently taught the opposite – about Waterloo I mean not English sport – the same sport which has led to the moral degeneration of the country at least according to one Novaseeker. Hmmm.

  339. 7817 says:

    Westray

    K

  340. Novaseeker says:

    Opus —

    Ugh.

    Your bowlers may run, but the ball is bounced, which greatly deflects the speed. Sure the bounce is unpredictable but you have a paddle in your hands.

    Our pitchers do not run, but the fastest of them pitch 100+ mph directly on a line — they don’t need to run to do it, and they don’t bounce the ball (at least not intentionally heh). They do it from strength of the entire body and arm. Our batters also never know how the ball is coming — you clearly don’t understand baseball at all, which is fine, most Brits don’t — because the ball is gripped and spun differently each pitch in order for each pitch to break (i.e. curve) up and down and left and right … or come straight and fast … and also the pitcher alters speeds. And the ball is deliberately sent to a certain part of the “strike zone”, or intentionally closely outside of that, by the pitcher, all which the hitter is trying to guess what the pitcher is doing. It is incredibly hard to hit a baseball, which is a very small, very hard object coming at you at 95+ mph, with a wooden baseball bat that is only about as wide as the ball, unlike the paddle with a handle that is a cricket “bat”. And we also have massive “boundary changes” between yards — I assume you’ve never seen this:

  341. Scott says:

    If you have never hit against a pitch coming at you at over say, 85 MPH, you cannot really understand the timing of the entire thing from wind up to the bat coming in contact with the ball.

    You pretty much have to commit to the swing before the ball leaves the pitchers hand, based on his body language during the wind up. You do not have time to watch it come in and then decide if you are going to swing.

    I pitched in high school, and I am a terrible batter. But I can still get a piece of it at the 80+ batting cages when I have a good breakfast and the planets are all aligned right.

  342. Spike says:

    Dalrock: Apologies for being off-topic, but this would interest you and others:
    While we know a lot about Margaret Sanger, we don’t look much at Marie Stopes. yet it is Stopes who specifically targeted the Anglican Church with a Doctrine of Demons:

  343. ZMAN says:

    @RedPillChristianity

    Right on. You know the deal. From what I have seen the very few women who were actually decent (which I can count on one hand) which means they actually followed moral guidelines and had genuine values got married very early which means by early 20s. The rest? There is no hope for them. The dudes marrying the vast majority are going to get divorce raped hard core and I am just now starting to see it as I enter my late 20s. Large amounts of women taking large amounts of dick like multiple football fields worth. Straight nasty. I try to tell guys I know especially guys in the military but they don’t listen because the vagina is too strong yet these guys have it bad because they leave for a deployment and their women are getting pounded out by Jody or his buddies off post. I tell these guys to seriously think for a minute, you are leaving for 6 months to a year, do you really think that woman is not going to want to have sex? Do you realize that there are tons of men here that will service your wife and not care? Do you realize that she has a sex drive too? What is she going to do all day? Yet, they never thought of it before I tell them and it never clicks and so many guys just close their eyes and don’t want to know.

    @Westray

    Dude are you from fabiusmaximus and relampagofurioso? You are right on point man. I appreciate your comments as they are quite insightful and I agree with them in large part. Keep exposing the clueless retards or the lemmings being walked off the cliff by their harlots or I mean “wives”

  344. Lost Patrol says:

    Baseball and Cricket. Two games where nothing happens for a long time and then everything happens at once.

  345. Oscar says:

    @ Opus

    When you say “Rounders”, do you actually mean Softball? Women don’t play Baseball (for the most part), even in the States.

  346. Mike says:

    In retrospect, I can give some advice based on my own experience of dating in the Christian wasteland. Go to a private christian college, get a girlfriend asap, and propose by senior year. For all my 25+ Christian men, I’m so, so sorrry. Sadly enough, I actually went to a nice Christian college, but didn’t try hard enough at getting a gf/wife . Little did I realize what post-college “Christian” women are all about at the local churches. Single mom after single mom, hail mary after hail mary, new virginity crodile tears (AKA a beta mating call). At this point, I don’t even want to save a christian slut from my own college who partied away her 20s. You will find a lot of of “busted dudes” in the young christian marriage world though. Meaning, guys who did it right and capitalized while very young, married girls generally better looking than themselves. Unfortunately, we don’t have a time machine to go back to school, and unless you’re good looking and an alpha – where this strategy has the best chance of paying off – it’s probably not worth the risk for the student debt load anymore at a private christian school. Many of those girls simply don’t want to get serious…with anyone. They want to establish themselves in an expensive little apartment with their make-work, affirmative action, pr job.

    Also, the only safe route in the marriage world is by having a wife who works. I know….the homeschool crowd and everything. But, that’s the only real way to not get screwed when she divorces you. To make this life manageable, you’re going to need some very active grandparents or make a ton of money. Generally, married Christian men need to make a ton of money in California if they hope to send their Children to private Christian schools.

  347. Scott says:

    Mike-

    I never really thought if that way, (About going to college and nailing down the girlfriend/fiance thing before graduation). Since you lived it, it is worth a look.

    I went to one of those small Christian colleges too–but with a twist. I was in a graduate program and I did not enter the program until I was 28 and already married. Most of my cohort were younger than me. They were people who went straight from college to the masters program so they were like 21-23 range.

    I hate to admit it but looking back now, here’s the sense I got, and I couldn’t put my finger on it until I read your comment. The young, unmarried ones who where there seemed like they were desperately hoping to attain what they failed to get during college–namely, a match up leading to marriage. The program was 2 years long. It was like a Mulligan–a mercy extension of 2 years to nail down that spouse. And many of them were a little quirky or weird. Ie– there was a personality issue or other idiosyncrasy that put them behind in the mate selection game.

    Like I said, I was already married, so I existed in the program as the “slightly older than us married guy.” That meant I was not really involved with them socially for the on campus crusades and whatever awkward stuff they were involved in. The study groups and what not. “I am living with this amazing couple who graduated a couple of years ago and they are discipling me as I decide what I want to do next.” The undergrads looked at them like “oh, you are one of those graduate students who is STILL looking. MY BOYFRIEND is already headed to seminary.”

    Their search matrices seemed weird to me too. They would ask how I found my wife and how much I prayed about it and blah blah blah and I was like “we just started going out or whatever and you know it was like stuff or whatever”

    I wasn’t much help.

    There was another group in the program as well, The “I am so weird that I am definitely not getting married but I will talk about what God has planned for me anyway as if there is some one a billion chance” group. They were nice and I always wondered what they did in the evenings.

  348. Liz says:

    Billy S“I am the type that can’t completely hide who I am at the core, so you would know the truth if I were in your circle of friends. I am working hard on stifling that though since most people, even Christians who should reach out to others more, don’t give one hoot about what others are going through. They may help them in a token amount, but they ultimately don’t want to invest any emotional energy even to be a true friend.
    That is why so few know what is going on in the lives of others.”

    I agree too few people (including Christians) reach out enough to others. That’s been the case a lot of places I’ve lived. Uncoincidentally, in the places I’ve lived where people invested a lot of their time and energy into the community and people, those communities were far better and that’s where I found the most stable and happy marriages.
    We are our habits.

  349. Opus says:

    I realised of course that my comments on the similarities/differences between Baseball and Cricket would lead to an outpouring of ‘my game is bigger than your Game’ comments and of course the biggest culprit is Novaseeker who but for an accident of geography would be as clueless about Baseball, as am I. (All the best Movie Stars had the same problem – so he is in good company: Gary Cooper, Cary Grant.) All that is missing so far is Anon coming on to explain that Indians are not always Spin Bowlers. FWIW Cricket bores me witless. In answer to Lost Patrol: Rounders is not Softball but a simplified Baseball.

    So here is a clip from Linden Park (I am out of frame on this one – if I was there) not taking LGBT methinks with the full seriousness which it deserves:

  350. Gunner Q says:

    Spike @ September 15, 2019 at 6:41 pm:
    “Dalrock: Apologies for being off-topic, but this would interest you and others:”

    It was interesting to see the Anglican side of feminist Convergence but old news otherwise. Cuckservativees won’t wake up to the idea of demonic attack when they’re convinced there is no devil.

    *An interdimensional portal to Eternal Hell opens. A gigantic humanoid with horn and hooves steps into our reality.*

    “I AM THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS AND FATHER OF LIES!”

    “Heehee, you’re such a kidder. Say, what are your plans for Sunday morning? It’s adopt-a-homosexual-community-organizer week at our Church! You should come.”

    “YOU”RE KILLING ME, LARRY.”

  351. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Mike
    How recent is this experience? Some of the recent marriages among churchgoing people in my social circle were right at 27 for the women and 28 for the men. The numbers are what they are.

    @Scott
    Old data. Now it seems to be college -> grad school / internship for a couple of years -> start marriage hunt. Do the math, you see girls marrying at 27+, just like the larger population.

    I mentioned in a previous thread about the 21 year old girl who was marrying / has married a 22 year old college student; the college girls were aghast because “she hasn’t lived her life! She doesn’t know who she is!” and so forth. Marrying before 25 is counter cultural even in churchgoing circles.

    Churchgoing college students really should associate with one or more of the campus church organizations. Sure, there are some odd people there but it’s still a pool to fish in that’s got better odds than the sports bar off campus.

  352. Lost Patrol says:

    Opus

    In answer to Lost Patrol: Rounders is not Softball but a simplified Baseball.

    Thanks but Oscar asked about that, not me.

    I had already seen the “Rounders, old English game that never became a seriously competitive sport, although it is probably an ancestor of baseball.” at Encyclopaedia Britannica. Can’t believe you let that opportunity go by.

  353. Westray says:

    Yeah Z-man, likewise to you. I go to those sites. FM is really interesting. I miss RF. RF is a great MGTOW, enjoying his life, minimalizing and starting on new paths. Not exactly the bitter gamer in the basement with his bag of Cheetos that tracons insist on. He goes everywhere and is all about maxing out his life, outside the plantation.

  354. Oscar says:

    @ Opus

    Rounders is not Softball but a simplified Baseball.

    Well, I just learned something new.

  355. c matt says:

    there is a very limited population of men who are as smart or smarter than we are.

    True – and they aren’t stupid enough to marry you.

  356. BillyS says:

    Smart women can’t (shouldn’t) marry men who aren’t at least their intellectual equal. As Princeton women, we have almost priced ourselves out of the market. Simply put, there is a very limited population of men who are as smart or smarter than we are. And I say again—you will never again be surrounded by this concentration of men who are worthy of you.

    I am smarter than almost all of them but they wouldn’t come within ten feet of me because I am not hot enough and also have all the “benefits” of being so smart.

  357. Jay Fink says:

    @Novaseeker I think the requirement that a man is muscular to win the girl started with my Generation X. I remember being in 9th grade in 1982. A boy took off his shirt for some reason and the girls responded with outrage. “Put your shirt back on you are skinny” “you have no muscles, gross”.

    That same day I looked around in public and saw a complete lack of muscularity among adult men. Some were average, some thin and some a little chubby yet they had wives by their side. The thought came to my mind that this wasn’t going to last. My generation of females will ruin it.

    Sure enough for the last two or three decades muscularity and the steroid look has become the norm among young adult males. This makes me think highly of boomers, they had an innocence or goodness about them where muscularity was not highly valued.

  358. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jay Fink
    @Novaseeker I think the requirement that a man is muscular to win the girl started with my Generation X.

    LOL! Nah…not even.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Charles_Atlas

    He marketed his first body building course with health and fitness writer Dr. Frederick Tilney in November 1922.

  359. Novaseeker says:

    That same day I looked around in public and saw a complete lack of muscularity among adult men. Some were average, some thin and some a little chubby yet they had wives by their side. The thought came to my mind that this wasn’t going to last. My generation of females will ruin it.

    Sure enough for the last two or three decades muscularity and the steroid look has become the norm among young adult males. This makes me think highly of boomers, they had an innocence or goodness about them where muscularity was not highly valued.

    I think women always have preferred a developed musculature. What changed wasn’t the preference, but their ability to select based on it. That ability to select based on it came about due to women’s economic independence, which permitted them to select men on the basis of attractiveness primarily, rather than being forced, due to economic need, to select primarily based on other criteria. And once women started to select en masse based on attractiveness, then of course men, wanting to be selected, started to focus on their attractiveness much more so that they wouldn’t lose out in being selected.

  360. Frank K says:

    LOL! “Naturally born skinny”. Now we’re “Naturally born fat”

  361. Lost Patrol says:

    AR provides a blast from the ancient past, mining some Pharaoh’s tomb for treasure and finds a Charles Atlas ad straight out of a comic book!

    That’s right. Not only could one order a submarine for the bathtub (it dives and surfaces if you put the tablets in), but could also order a proto-ManUp guide from the same Superman, or Archie and Jughead comic book.

    Was it my grandfather, or my father, or could it have been me that sent off for some of this material. I can’t remember when I saw it, but I do remember that Charles was a big proponent of “dynamic tension”, known today and maybe then as isometric exercise; plus toweling off vigorously after bathing for better circulation, and especially the consuming of much olive oil, which gave vim and vigor and nice looking skin.

    In my youth I was not able to convert all his good advice into a manly and muscular physique, but maybe it is time to revisit the program. (I think he was a closet weight lifter).

  362. Scott says:

    I really wanted to order the x-ray vision goggles to look at girls. But I was too chicken to ask if it was real.

  363. Dale U says:

    x-ray vision goggles
    I remember that ad! And yeah, I did not order either. Too naturally cynical. I wonder what they were? Maybe just slotted glasses, as shown in the ad.

    Holy memory-lane trip batman! See what you have started, AR?

  364. Oscar says:

    @ Jay Fink

    Sure enough for the last two or three decades muscularity and the steroid look has become the norm among young adult males. This makes me think highly of boomers, they had an innocence or goodness about them where muscularity was not highly valued.

    “The steroid look”? You’re full of crap.

    Millennials are the most obese generation in history, and the generation following them will likely be worse.

    https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/cancer-news/press-release/2018-02-26-millennials-top-obesity-chart-before-reaching-middle-age

    Most young men today are soft and weak. I saw that as an Army officer. When I went through basic training in 1993, most of my peers were in decent shape. There were exceptions, but most of us passed the Army Physical Fitness Test (even if just barely) on the first try.

    Fast forward to my days as a company commander in 2012-2013, and we were getting Soldiers who’d already completed basic training who couldn’t pass the APFT. And when we pushed them in training, they broke.

    There are many things outside a man’s control, but physical fitness isn’t one of them. Weakness, and obesity are choices most people make. Most men can choose differently, but many are too lazy.

  365. Opus says:

    I do not doubt (based on based on forever observation) that women like muscles (though ultimately muscles (I also observe) tend to turn to flab – yet – and I won’t link the clip – Henry Cooper the only man to put Cassius Clay (that’s Mohammad Ali to you) on the canvas was devoid of a six-pack. Photos of athletes from a hundred years ago show the same lack.

    I much like the movie Don’t Make Waves (1968) a film in which muscle builders are made fun of as a bunch of effeminate pansies and indeed the new Once Upon a Time in Hollywood has Brad Pitt making the same jibes at the expense of Bruce Lee – whom he describes as a Dancer. I always loved those movies with Steve Reeves and one of the quirks of British Cinema history is that such sword and sandals movies always played in a double-bill with the latest from Elvis Presley – much to the annoyance of everybody.

    Muscles on women are repulsive; on men (of the six pack variety) frequently vanity.

  366. Oscar says:

    @ Opus

    I do not doubt (based on based on forever observation) that women like muscles (though ultimately muscles (I also observe) tend to turn to flab

    That’s what happens when older men who no longer train continue to eat like young men who train constantly.

    yet – and I won’t link the clip – Henry Cooper the only man to put Cassius Clay (that’s Mohammad Ali to you) on the canvas was devoid of a six-pack. Photos of athletes from a hundred years ago show the same lack.

    A six pack results from a low body fat percentage, not from musculature. But, it’s not as though any of this is new.

  367. Liz says:

    I always thought (in the old days) affluence was associated with leisure, manual labor with musculature. Kind of like tans.

  368. Oscar says:

    @ Liz

    I always thought (in the old days) affluence was associated with leisure, manual labor with musculature. Kind of like tans.

    Are sports a form of leisure?

  369. emery says:

    @7816
    Vox is absolutely correct that running away never solved anything. Men conceding ground, culturally, is how we got to the absolutely pozzed state of SJW Media, comics, MeToo, DivorceRape, Women’s Votes, Open Borders and so on. In retrospect, with a time machine, it would have been worth going back to the “Men Voting their Own way” and showing them the nightmare present and told them it would have been worth murdering judges to stop that amendment from passing.

    However the problem is that while the observation is correct there is no real prescription/action and for good reason. Vox’s own solution of “Just be an actual rock star, marry a model and use your genius to start several businesses while learning several languages and having a mild level of sociopathy to be able to shuck all social pressure” doesn’t work for the average joe and Vox knows it and it’s why he never recommends it. He is a Sigma and by definition he operates outside social hierarchy and all of his natural solutions will NOT WORK for the average Delta who does live in the hierarchy and does fear social pressure and doesn’t have 150 IQ. The only words he has are
    1) It’s worth fighting for
    2) Build your own structures

    The sad truth is that the solution for men can be worked on on two levels: the individual and the societal. Individually the solution is to max yourself out as much as humanly possible (spiritually firstmost, and for some men steroids are going to be the right decision, for others it will be mass money gaining, others surgery, others learning how to diet and gym) and find women who are in very specific niches to not be basic thots. The issue is that it means the right woman for you is very very case by case and not replicatable on a mass scale. For example, in two successful relationships of my peers, on woman was an expat who moved to a foreign nation who had a very specific personal circumstance which caused her to flee her family and men and my friend met her right when she permanently moved there and so she couldn’t slut it up for years and instead wasted herself for only a few months before she went exclusive with him because of a very specific psychological fetish/dependency she got with men like him. Another was a 9/10 model looks who was exiled by her family because she wasn’t liberal enough or something odd and ended up isolated in a small town hospital before she met my other friend and she is a co-dependent who basically got addicted to my other friend because he fit the profile of her father. Another is an absolute weeaboo (japan fetishist) of a woman who is hot yet so socially awkward she only wants to be around her man and has a genuine fear of people. You can’t tell men to just do what I said because it’s freakishly specific, you need to find women who fit your circumstances and personal profile and basically make your own tribe with her against the world. Any woman who is ‘of the world’ ie average girl is a lost cause.

    And that goes into the second level, fixing it societally instead of individually. MGTW and MRAs fit in this category and it’s a lost cause. You can’t fix society by yourself and MGTOWs are absolutely right in that it will never happen and the average thot is unmarriageable. MRAs are doomed to fail and MGTOWs alway talk about the average woman who is a bad bet and they are right. The society Boomers ruined had a functioning societal sphere which meant that, individually you didn’t have to do much. It’s the reverse now where you need to max out individual effort which means you can’t rely on the societal sphere which means there are no rules anymore except avoid the women who are the most mainstream. Freaks and outcasts who happen to be hot are the way to go.

  370. Frank K says:

    It’s the reverse now where you need to max out individual effort which means you can’t rely on the societal sphere which means there are no rules anymore except avoid the women who are the most mainstream.

    This does kind of create a mirror to the situation where 80% of women want the top 5-10% of men, meaning most will end up empty handed.

    MGTOW’s tend to say that there are no “unicorns” and that “all women are like that”. I tend to disagree, but given the current circumstances those unicorns can be very, very hard to find. It used to be that you could find then sitting in church pews, but many of those girls are now feminists and carousel riders.

    Another is an absolute weeaboo (japan fetishist) of a woman who is hot yet so socially awkward she only wants to be around her man and has a genuine fear of people.

    There was a woman like that (except she was a plain Jane) at a previous place of employment. I once talked shop with her in the break room, She was at a healthy distance from me (about 8+ feet). As we talked I casually took a step towards her. She immediately stepped back one step. I noticed this and waited a couple of minutes as we continued to talk, then took another step towards her. She immediately stepped back,maintaining the distance. It was weird. She was a “career woman” in a make dominated profession (a software engineer) yet was VERY uncomfortable around men.

  371. Liz says:

    Are sports a form of leisure?
    Yes, and sports too differed between the classes way back when.

  372. Oscar says:

    @ Liz

    Are sports a form of leisure?

    Yes, and sports too differed between the classes way back when.

    They still do. And who do you suppose had more leisure time to devote to sports; the rich, or the poor? Have you ever heard the saying that rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen? Does strength benefit a rugby player?

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Rugby_football

  373. Spike says:

    Frank K says:
    September 18, 2019 at 3:01 pm

    ”…MGTOW’s tend to say that there are no “unicorns” and that “all women are like that”. I tend to disagree, but given the current circumstances those unicorns can be very, very hard to find. It used to be that you could find then sitting in church pews, but many of those girls are now feminists and carousel riders…”
    CONFIRMED
    In Femihell Australia, the largest state (New South Wales) is having a bitter and divisive debate about the passage of one of the most liberal abortion laws in the world: Abortion on demand, at any time, with no restrictions, up to birth and beyond (child born live).
    Many churches have been preparing for demonstrations against this abomination, and rightly so.

    Not my church. The pastor announces the time, date and venue. Immediately, the women pipe up with “What about the women who have had abortions… you’re judging them…God should be forgiving and loving….” . This led of course, by the feminist single middle age female associate pastor.
    I had voted against her appointment, the single “No” vote in the Parish Council. I said at the time that her appointment will turn around and bite us, and sure enough it has. I make it a point of publicly walking out of church each time she is rostered on to preach. I’m not listening to her when I can read such drivel from Buzzfeed or Huffpost in my own time

    Meanwhile at the march, the Catholics under various Slavic banners and the Orthodox were represented in numbers. Protestants and Evangelicals were not. I take it they are good talkers, but poor doers of the Word.

  374. BillyS says:

    Emery,

    Vox left the country for Italy, so his advice to “not run away” doesn’t quite work even for him. Fine for him to do that, but more than a bit hypocritical when he calls anyone who disagrees with him every name in the book.

  375. Oscar says:

    @ Spike

    This led of course, by the feminist single middle age female associate pastor.
    I had voted against her appointment, the single “No” vote in the Parish Council.

    To quote the plumber – “well, there’s your problem, right there”.

  376. thedeti says:

    Emery:

    So… your advice to men is to find hot but mentally ill women with family issues or weird fetishes?

    Do you realize that that is exactly what got a lot of these men (including me) into these messes in the first place?

  377. Liz says:

    They still do. And who do you suppose had more leisure time to devote to sports; the rich, or the poor? Have you ever heard the saying that rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen? Does strength benefit a rugby player?

    Perhaps I didn’t explain well enough above. I’m not asserting that affluent people were flabby yet skinny couch potatoes in the past. Fred Astaire, for example, was a very fit and athletic person. But this is not a body type we would recognize today as “well muscled”. The pleb (example Marlon Brando in A Streetcar Named Desire does. Anyway, I’m certainly not going to argue that people are more fit in general today (though my husband and I, and our families are very fit by most standards), but I believe the muscular standard (size of the muscles) has changed…and to me it makes sense as life has become more leisurely in general.

  378. Liz says:

    Italy is a very strange choice for a conservative person to move.
    Socialist country filled with SJWs.

  379. Novaseeker says:

    So… your advice to men is to find hot but mentally ill women with family issues or weird fetishes?

    Do you realize that that is exactly what got a lot of these men (including me) into these messes in the first place?

    Indeed.

    I think he is saying that there are outlier girls out there. It’s true that there are. But they also carry their own risks. There really isn’t a way around that, regardless of how outlierish the woman is — you will need to deal with different sets of issues, but deal with them you must.

  380. scarletlagomorph says:

    @ Frank K

    MGTOW’s tend to say that there are no “unicorns” and that “all women are like that”. I tend to disagree, but given the current circumstances those unicorns can be very, very hard to find. It used to be that you could find then sitting in church pews, but many of those girls are now feminists and carousel riders.

    I can only speak for myself but when I say AWALT, I’m not saying that all women, everywhere, are currently soulless harpies gleefully being adulterous, destroying marriages and families, etc. What I am saying is that virtually every single heterosexual woman out there, by virtue of her genetics, is hypergamous. Without social constraints, which have been almost entirely obliterated from Western society, she will follow the path of least resistance. She will devote her youth and greatest quality of fecundity to high-SMV men, then shift towards rapacious resource allocation when her uterus’ two-minute warning sounds.

    I don’t hate them for it, but then I’m an atheist that accepts that the unfettered sexual dynamics of the human race were a boon for a small, uncivilised species grasping for a foothold in a dangerous and unforgiving world. If I religious, though, I would have more than a few choice words for a deity that made the natural appetites of their greatest creation so utterly contrary to what is supposedly required for their salvation.

  381. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    Men conceding ground, culturally, is how we got to the absolutely pozzed state of SJW Media, comics, MeToo, DivorceRape, Women’s Votes, Open Borders and so on.

    “Some” and “all” are not synonyms, and you don’t understand the first thing about government or culture. Men in the 1980’s didn’t “concede ground” to the Duluth protocol, it was embedded into the regulatory code by a handful of determined activists and untouchable bureaucrats. Men in 1994 did not “concede ground” to the VAWA part of AVCA, they had it forced upon them by a coalition of media, bureaucratic state and corrupt legislators….including Joe Biden, who was very proud of VAwA.

    The game of “blame all men for the actions of a few” is popular with women and feminized men. The rest of us don’t much care for it.

  382. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    Freaks and outcasts who happen to be hot are the way to go.

    Hotness fades, personality endures. This is foolishness. You have much to learn, but the first step will involve killing your arrogance. Good luck!

  383. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    There really isn’t a way around that, regardless of how outlierish the woman is — you will need to deal with different sets of issues, but deal with them you must.

    “Just find a good one” is a recurring theme in the manosphere. But that all too often leads to the “cruise control” mentality, where a man just expects his wife to remain the same girl he married [1] with little to no drama. But..even the “good one” will require training, managing, leading, and to be told “NO” from time to time. There is no “set it and forget it” mode to a marriage, although it can look that way from the outside.

    [1] This might be the male version of “just get it”. I’ll have to think more about that.

  384. Oscar says:

    @ Liz

    Perhaps I didn’t explain well enough above.

    No, I understood your point. The problem is that you didn’t understand mine, and the reason you failed to understand my point is because you evaded thinking about my point by evading answering my questions.

    Try answering my questions this time. Who do you suppose had more leisure time to devote to sports; the rich, or the poor? Have you ever heard the saying that rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen? Does strength benefit a rugby player?

    Here’s an additional question. Did wealthy people play rugby in the past? Here’s a small hint.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Oxford_University_RFC

  385. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    “Just find a good one” is a recurring theme in the manosphere.

    That’s what Ted Beale and his now-acolyte Owen Benjamin repeat, but I’ve never heard – or read – them explain how. Lots of young men would love to “find a good one”. Telling them to do something they already want to do is of no value to them. Helping them figure out how to do what they want to do would be valuable.

  386. SirHamster says:

    That’s what Ted Beale and his now-acolyte Owen Benjamin repeat, but I’ve never heard – or read – them explain how.

    Stop acting on fear.

    Both Vox Day and Owen Benjamin can claim credit for people getting married and having kids, because both men have a message of hope, not despair.

    God only needed 11 men to transform the Roman Empire. Will we modern Christians do less?

    “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

    That said, neither of those two are suited for offering lower level practical advice, as they’re in the top 1% of men. That’s an area for more average men to share their experience and encouragement.

  387. Liz says:

    Try answering my questions this time. Who do you suppose had more leisure time to devote to sports; the rich, or the poor?
    The rich.
    Have you ever heard the saying that rugby is a game for hooligans played by gentlemen?
    Yes, though I’ve never met a rugby player who seemed like a member of the upper class.
    Most have cauliflower ears, which I’ve never seen on the highfalutin, but maybe they have the money to fix such things. I couldn’t say. I’m not much of a rugby fan. Are most affluent men rugby players? Were they back in the day? It’s not something I follow.

    Does strength benefit a rugby player?
    Yes.

    Here’s an additional question. Did wealthy people play rugby in the past? Here’s a small hint.
    I guess I’d have to see what they looked like. Because I’m not doubting they were strong, I’m doubting they looked like what we would call muscle bound today. At any rate, I hope I’ve answered your questions, I’m probably done with the topic of muscles and rugby now.

  388. Oscar says:

    @ SirHamster

    Stop acting on fear.

    I’m married with nine kids, dude. I’m not acting on fear.

    That said, neither of those two are suited for offering lower level practical advice, as they’re in the top 1% of men.

    Thanks for making my point for me.

  389. Oscar says:

    @ Liz

    Are most affluent men rugby players?

    No. Neither are most poor men football players, or weightlifters, or wrestlers. Most people are not athletes, regardless of class.

    Were they back in the day?

    Did you click on the link I provided you? Oxford University has had a rugby team since 1869. Were those 1869 Oxford rugby players likely upper class? Middle class? Working class?

  390. Liz says:

    Oscar, why does this matter?
    If manual laborers are digging ditches, coal mining, farming, et al six days a week for 10-12 hours doing a lot of heavy lifting as they did back then they’re probably going to be more muscled than hobbyist rugby players. But I’m not going to argue about it…hey, maybe that scene in Conan, when he was doing all that manual labor that made him super muscled…was inaccurate. They should’ve had him playing rugby.
    I really have no vested emotional interest in arguing over sports muscles.

  391. feministhater says:

    That said, neither of those two are suited for offering lower level practical advice, as they’re in the top 1% of men. That’s an area for more average men to share their experience and encouragement.

    Lol! You guys make the case better than any MGTOW. Haha! Hilarious! Oh boy! I do love a good laugh before bed!

    Woweeeee!

  392. Frank K says:

    What about the women who have had abortions?

    They need to repent of their heinous sin, and should be incessantly speaking out against abortion. Of course the chance of the happening is very small.

  393. Anonymous Reader says:

    said

    That said, neither of those two are suited for offering lower level practical advice, as they’re in the top 1% of men.

    Ah. Top men…working on it…

  394. SirHamster says:

    @Oscar

    I’m not acting on fear.

    It’s an answer to the how:

    … but I’ve never heard – or read – them explain how.

    “Stop acting on fear.”

    Obviously you’re not in the spot where that is necessary or helpful, but others were.

    Thanks for making my point for me.

    They’re not useful to everyone, and that’s okay. But that’s not the same thing as not having a helpful message.

  395. emery says:

    @The Deti:
    “So… your advice to men is to find hot but mentally ill women with family issues or weird fetishes?”

    Yes. Damaged socially, as opposed to mentally, can also apply. It should not be the whole criteria of what to look for and it’s going to be a very narrow range of psychosis that are manageable (no bipolars, for example) but any woman “in-sync” with western society is going to be more fully indoctrinated in the ways of hating men and siding with the feminist agenda. I should repeat that I said every case is going to be specific to the man. The woman who a man can take to side with him against the world reliably is going to be different to what each man can handle: if you can handle or fulfill daddy issues will your niche will be there, if you’re a type who likes isolated living a socially maladujusted or fearful woman might be up your ally.

    Allow me to use a hypothetical situation. One man is getting together with a woman who is very urban-average: she went to a liberal college, watches Comedy Central and Sex in the City, drinks wine, goes clubbing, has an instagram and Facebook, etc. Another man is going out with a woman who is very maladjusted but he can personally handle well, let’s say she fled her family because she got savagely beaten yet she’s strangely attracted to this current man because he looks and acts like the man at her old local grocer who was the only kind man to her in her life and gave her milk to drink while her savage family starved her or something crazy. I’m getting extreme here on purpose to really take my argument to the extreme. Both men are Christian so they try to lead their wives righteously but they’re not too intensely red pilled so they’re not as skilled in game as say Pook, Heartiste etc.

    Now let’s say you and I were to bet $100.00 on which of the two couples will still be together in 5 years. I assert that the second woman who, because of circumstance, was not easily assimilated into mainstream culture will be together with her man. The first woman, considered “normal and healthy” (we know she’s not but society will say she is), will be divorced at 50% odds or whatever.

    To take it a step further I think it will be easier for a man to deal with the savagely beaten starved woman’s issues and help her resolve them over the ‘normal woman’. In the ‘normal woman”s case it will be more difficult: trying to un-thot a thot, making a hoe into a housewife, not likely.
    It sounds stupid even to me, but I had to admit that dealing with baggage that you can personally handle ok is going to be better odds than dealing with feminist baggage that will put you up against the entire Hollywood-Media-SJW-Social Media complex.

    If you want to tone down what I’m saying it can be summed up as this: There are no unicorns, but there are women who have baggage that you are more suited to deal with. Baggage that comes from social indoctrination is to be avoided at all costs because you can’t compete with society.

  396. emery says:

    @The Deti:
    “So… your advice to men is to find hot but mentally ill women with family issues or weird fetishes?”

    Yes. This is ‘a’ category to find women, not the only one, but one I’ve seen work. Damaged socially, as opposed to mentally, can also apply. It should not be the whole criteria of what to look for and it’s going to be a very narrow range of psychosis that are manageable (no bipolars, for example) but any woman “in-sync” with western society is going to be more fully indoctrinated in the ways of hating men and siding with the feminist agenda. I should repeat that I said every case is going to be specific to the man. The woman who a man can take to side with him against the world reliably is going to be different to what each man can handle: if you can handle or fulfill daddy issues will your niche will be there, if you’re a type who likes isolated living a socially maladujusted or fearful woman might be up your ally.

    Allow me to use a hypothetical situation. One man is getting together with a woman who is very urban-average: she went to a liberal college, watches Comedy Central and Sex in the City, drinks wine, goes clubbing, has an instagram and Facebook, etc. Another man is going out with a woman who is very maladjusted but he can personally handle well, let’s say she fled her family because she got savagely beaten yet she’s strangely attracted to this current man because he looks and acts like the man at her old local grocer who was the only kind man to her in her life and gave her milk to drink while her savage family starved her or something crazy. I’m getting extreme here on purpose to really take my argument to the extreme. Both men are Christian so they try to lead their wives righteously but they’re not too intensely red pilled so they’re not as skilled in game as say Pook, Heartiste etc.

    Now let’s say you and I were to bet $100.00 on which of the two couples will still be together in 5 years. I assert that the second woman who, because of circumstance, was not easily assimilated into mainstream culture will be together with her man. The first woman, considered “normal and healthy” (we know she’s not but society will say she is), will be divorced at 50% odds or whatever.

    To take it a step further I think it will be easier for a man to deal with the savagely beaten starved woman’s issues and help her resolve them over the ‘normal woman’. In the ‘normal woman”s case it will be more difficult: trying to un-thot a thot, making a hoe into a housewife, not likely.
    It sounds stupid even to me, but I had to admit that dealing with baggage that you can personally handle ok is going to be better odds than dealing with feminist baggage that will put you up against the entire Hollywood-Media-SJW-Social Media complex.

    If you want to tone down what I’m saying it can be summed up as this: There are no unicorns, but there are women who have baggage that you are more suited to deal with. Baggage that comes from social indoctrination is to be avoided at all costs because you can’t compete with society.

  397. emery says:

    I’m an incompetent fool at wordpress, could a moderator delete my first copy of the post?

  398. Anonymous Reader says:

    I’m an incompetent fool

    Yes. Yes, you are.

    You should read and learn more, while commenting much less. Then you can be more competent and less of a fool.

  399. Anonymous Reader says:

    Oscar
    Ted Beale and his now-acolyte Owen Benjamin

    Owen Benjamin is the man with some stuff on YouTube? Like the emotional and ignorant rant about how the Apollo moon landings were fake. That guy?

  400. BillyS says:

    SirHamster,

    So they can’t give actionable advice, but they can freely insult those who disagree that it is as simple as they claim.

    Comparing getting married today to Jesus’ Apostles shows a huge lack of thinking. Yes, they accomplished great things, but the way it happened is not anything like modern marriage.

    You are directly commanding many (most?) men to accept they will be messed over. They should just take Bobby MacFarlane (sp?) as a patron saint and sing “Don’t Worry, Be Happy!” all the time or they are liars or worse.

    Where were you (and Vox for that matter) when I had to go through a bunch of old paperwork looking for a specific form I needed? I had to mentally rehash my marriage (and unfaithful Christian wife) of almost 30 years once again and realize that I am ALONE! Talk out your rear all you want, but I got nothing for all my effort, except called names and insults because I am not encouraging others to blindly follow the same script.

    I am not a pure MGTOW (whatever that means), but I dispute that we must command men to go forth and marry those sluts.

    I didn’t think I married a slut BTW, but I am seeing that my exwife had many more of those traits than were apparent to my oblivious mind at the time.

    How many young men have you challenged with the truth yourself? How much of the “real story” do you note or is it always the happy line?

    Emery,

    I don’t want to be with a woman in 5 years, I want to be with her for life. I don’t see that happening these days for most men no matter who they pick.

    ====

    I want to get off this ride. I sure wish these feelings would go away. That may be the worst part of things. (Yeah its raw, but hopefully meaningful to a lurker. You can make it through this, but it is not pleasant and it remains around for the rest of your life!)

  401. Dale U says:

    May God bless you Billy… and anyone else enduring a violation of trust.

  402. feministhater says:

    The top 1% of men are not Voxday or Owen Benjamin. This is freaking laughable. Haha!

    If that’s ‘top 1%’ and that’s all they get for their precious egos…. oh fuck, what a laugh… hahahahahahahaha! Jeeeeeepers fucking creepers brah!

    Hamster man, thank you for the laughs! Keep em coming!

  403. feministhater says:

    They’re not useful to everyone, and that’s okay. But that’s not the same thing as not having a helpful message.

    If they haven’t got useful, actionable advice for men who they demand get married, they really should shut the fuck up.

    What you’re actually saying is that they’re loud mouths full of hot air. Useless cunts.

  404. Hazelshade says:

    Are Vox Day and Owen Benjamin trustworthy? You be the judge. Check out the YouTube channel “Johnny Arcade 2”. Most of the videos are quite short. Warning: obscene language.

  405. Acksiom says:

    And yet again I point out it’s not just, let alone really, the lack of marriageable women, but the lack of marriageable communities:
    https://reason.com/2019/09/18/a-grieving-father-is-standing-trial-for-criticizing-a-judge-on-facebook/#comments

  406. westray says:

    Anonymous Reader,

    Your scolding is getting way out of hand. Just a heads up.

  407. Dalrock:

    You haven’t posted any new entries in a while. Hope all is well with you and your family.

  408. Oscar says:

    @ SirHamster

    It’s an answer to the how:

    … but I’ve never heard – or read – them explain how.

    “Stop acting on fear.”

    Obviously you’re not in the spot where that is necessary or helpful, but others were.

    Now I understand. Thanks.

    They’re not useful to everyone, and that’s okay. But that’s not the same thing as not having a helpful message.

    Yeah, I’m not buying it. Solomon wrote a whole book full of practical, actionable advice that is still valid 3,000 years later. Surely Ted could leverage his considerable IQ to provide some practical, actionable advice that is valid today (I wouldn’t count on Owen Benjamin for anything like that). “Stop acting on fear” is too vague to be of much use to most of the young men who listen to him, or read his blog. Their natural response would be; “Great! Now what?”

    To which Ted would reply; “I don’t tell people what to do”.

    To which the young man would reasonably reply; “What do you mean, you don’t tell people what to do? You just told me to ‘stop acting on fear’!”

    To which Ted would reply; “Gamma!” And ban the kid.

    Like I said; not terribly helpful.

  409. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    Owen Benjamin is the man with some stuff on YouTube? Like the emotional and ignorant rant about how the Apollo moon landings were fake. That guy?

    That is correct.

  410. Oscar says:

    @ Liz

    Oscar, why does this matter?

    Why’d you bring it up?

    But I’m not going to argue about it

    That’s what you’ve been doing, and continue to do.

    …hey, maybe that scene in Conan, when he was doing all that manual labor that made him super muscled…was inaccurate.

    Well, Conan the Barbarian is a fictional movie based on a comic book in which women in chain mail bikinis fight fantastic beasts, so accuracy may have been of secondary priority.

    Shockingly, the guy who played Conan got his muscles through body building, which is a sport, not through manual labor.

    I really have no vested emotional interest in arguing over sports muscles.

    I see no reason to get emotional about it at all. But, if you don’t want to argue, why are you arguing? Even after stating – three times now – that you don’t want to argue?

  411. emery says:

    @feministhater
    “The top 1% of men are not Voxday or Owen Benjamin. This is freaking laughable. Haha!”

    Empirically false, no matter your personal feelings on the man. Owen is 6’6” tall, which simply in the category of height (which is positively associated with attractiveness, higher salaries, perceived status, etc) is already approaching the top 1%. Consider the population that also has charisma, a somewhat successful youtube channel, loving wife and kid(s?), made at least as much money as him, is not obese and it’s not hard to imagine he’s one of the top.

    Top 10% only means you are better than 9/10 people which is not terribly unusual. Top 1% just means over 99/100 people. Again, not an unimaginable amount. Just not being obese puts you in the top 50% in america! Making over $50k a year is in the top half of salaries (in terms of pure wealth only, making 300k-500k a year puts you in the top 1%). Being able to speak to a small crowd without stuttering, muchless being a standup comedian, is easily in the top 20% of men’s speaking ability. The amount of men who are passable in all of those categories combined would be easily top 10% and Owen is more than passable. It’s also why self improvement in many different areas is very possible and very desirable. What the media holds up as icons tend to be, when they are exceptional, top .0001% or one in a million.

  412. Oscar says:

    @ emery

    Empirically false, no matter your personal feelings on the man. Owen is 6’6” tall, which simply in the category of height (which is positively associated with attractiveness, higher salaries, perceived status, etc) is already approaching the top 1%. Consider the population that also has charisma, a somewhat successful youtube channel, loving wife and kid(s?), made at least as much money as him, is not obese and it’s not hard to imagine he’s one of the top.

    That is correct. According to the US Census Bureau, an American male in the 30-39-year-old cohort who is 6’6″ (Owen Benjamin is taller than that) is in the 99.5 percentile. That alone places him in the top 0.5%.

  413. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Oscar
    Thanks. I have only seen a few minutes of video produced by Owen Benjamin. He appears to be mainly driven by emotion, as many actors are. Not a good source of advice on some topics, but I could be completely wrong as I don’t spend much time viewing YouTube channels in general.

    As a general rule, people who have unconscious competence at some task are not competent at explaining how they do it. “You just do it, it’s easy” is one answer I’ve heard from athletes. Not all that actionable. Fortunately it is more common in the last century or so for men to break down a process or technique into steps that can be studied and practiced.

    Related:
    In the churchgoing realm, there are instructions to both wives and husbands that are terse but clear. The fact that most people don’t want to read and understand those instructions does not negate them.

  414. thedeti says:

    Emery:

    Yes. Damaged socially, as opposed to mentally, can also apply.

    You’re serious. You’re actually serious.

    No. That is terrible advice. Most of the women you’re talking about are garden variety borderlines, and that’s bad enough.

    A better way to address this is to get men to learn how to see these kinds of women and avoid them.

    I suppose it doesn’t matter, because most of these damaged women you’re talking about will get married anyway. And most of them will marry the hapless, clueless beta men you want to marry them.

    Which is why education on the male side is better, and why telling these men to avoid these women is better. These women aren’t worth it anyway. Most of these women will just end up divorcing these men anyway and destroying them anyway.

    Sorry, I do not subscribe to the “it’s better to marry a damaged woman, make a couple of kids with her, then be required to pay her half your income for the rest of your life when she divorces you, because it’s better for society than you just not procreating” viewpoint. That is the “we must save Western Civilization” viewpoint.

    Why should these men fight and die for a society that shits on them at every turn? Why should these men toss themselves on the gears of a society that will simply grind them up? You are TELLING THEM that it WILL grind them up, and you’re telling them to “go do it anyway because Western Civ needs them”. Well, if Western Civ needs them, then Western Civ needs to LEAVE THEM ALONE WHILE THEY GET WHAT THEY NEED and then BACK THEM UP when it comes time for them to exercise the authority it says they have.

  415. SirHamster says:

    “Stop acting on fear” is too vague to be of much use to most of the young men who listen to him, or read his blog.

    The advice not to act on fear are usually accompanied by examples of acting on fear, usually current events.

    “Why didn’t X take a risk that gave a chance of success? Fear of failure. Fear of success.”

    Solomon wrote a whole book full of practical, actionable advice that is still valid 3,000 years later. Surely Ted could …

    You’re not arguing fairly. “Why aren’t you as useful as Solomon” isn’t a fair standard. Vox isn’t claiming the stature and impact of Solomon.

    To which the young man would reasonably reply; “What do you mean, you don’t tell people what to do? You just told me to ‘stop acting on fear’!”

    Dispensing useful advice isn’t the same thing as claiming authority and responsibility over that person.

    Young men do desire and need that authority. Vox doesn’t provide that. That’s part of what Trump’s God-Emperor meme taps into, and there’s a hunger for a leader who will do that.

  416. SirHamster says:

    (I wouldn’t count on Owen Benjamin for anything like that).

    As a Christian comedian whose mission is to bring out Logos, Owen is magnitudes more effective than Vox at dispensing useful advice. Your model for making predictions is broken.

    Rhetoric through laughter is more effective than intellectual lectures. There are children named after Owen in honor of how he dispelled lies that brought despair. He has inspired men to search for and marry girlfriends and for couples to make children.

    “Be fruitful and multiply, don’t be fruity and blow a guy.”
    “Don’t chase after lollipops and fancy pants.”

  417. Oscar says:

    @ SirHamster

    The advice not to act on fear are usually accompanied by examples of acting on fear, usually current events.

    That’s not what these young men are asking for, or seeking. They’re asking for practical, actionable advice that will help them find the good women that Ted and Owen are telling them to marry.

    “Why didn’t X take a risk that gave a chance of success? Fear of failure. Fear of success.”

    Solomon wrote a whole book full of practical, actionable advice that is still valid 3,000 years later. Surely Ted could …

    “Why aren’t you as useful as Solomon” isn’t a fair standard.

    Fortunately, I’ve never held anyone to that standard.

    Vox isn’t claiming the stature and impact of Solomon.

    Fortunately, I never claimed that Ted made such a claim.

    Owen is magnitudes more effective than Vox at dispensing useful advice.

    What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them find the good women Owen advised them to marry?

    Your model for making predictions is broken.

    What model would that be?

  418. Oscar says:

    @ thedeti

    Sorry, I do not subscribe to the “it’s better to marry a damaged woman, make a couple of kids with her, then be required to pay her half your income for the rest of your life when she divorces you, because it’s better for society than you just not procreating” viewpoint. That is the “we must save Western Civilization” viewpoint.

    Agreed. I’d add that deliberately choosing a damaged woman to mother your children is horrendously irresponsible to your children.

    That damaged woman will damage your children, especially if she divorces you, and you’re no longer there to serve as a buffer between her and the children. The children will then grow into damaged adults, who’ll then damage their children, and the cycle will perpetuate itself.

    That’s no way to save any civilization. Just the opposite, in fact.

  419. 7817 says:

    Deti:

    Why should these men fight and die for a society that shits on them at every turn? Why should these men toss themselves on the gears of a society that will simply grind them up?

    You are misunderstanding this.

    No one here is asking anyone to toss themselves on the gears of the neoliberal world order. Clown world demands your sacrifice even as it mocks it.

    The only way out of this is if men risk themselves for their own families and own nation, their own tribe.

    As everyone in this space knows, we are living in the decaying corpse of a society. But that fact itself means we have tremendous possibilities to create a future right now.

    Those who are trying to stop the blackpilling are doing so because they can see that there is a future to take hold of for those with courage. We can follow the example of our ancestors, looking to ancient paths and learning to walk in them, so that our children and grandchildren will inherit something good, a healthy society.

    Clown world is dying. Let’s have the kids that will inherit the legacy of our more honorable ancestors, and give them as much hope and value as we can.

  420. Liz says:

    But, if you don’t want to argue, why are you arguing?
    Because you keep asking questions…which don’t seem rhetorical in nature.
    Like this one. And all the others.

  421. Anonymous Reader says:

    said

    You’re not arguing fairly.

    Irony.
    The ignorant troll complains about “fair”.
    LOL.

  422. Anonymous Reader says:

    thedeti
    You’re serious. You’re actually serious.

    A fair question at this point: has he taken his own advice? If so, how’s it going? IF not, why not? The answer would be interesting one way or another.

  423. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    Empirically false, no matter your personal feelings on the man. Owen is 6’6” tall, which simply in the category of height

    Hamster did not define what he meant by “top 1%”, though, so attempting to use reason is a nonstarter. In fact he’s just sucking up to his Supreme Dark Lord while trolling this site for flames. Don’t confuse Hamster with anyone serious or competent.

    PS: You are still foolish for advocating that men seek out damaged women to marry. Did you take your own advice?

  424. Anonymous Reader says:


    said
    As a Christian comedian whose mission is to bring out Logos, Owen is magnitudes more effective than Vox at dispensing useful advice.

    As I pointed out above, I have not viewed much of his video. Seeing him emotionally distraught in his car because people disagreed with him about the Apollo moon landings being fake is not impressive. I understand that you must worship him because your Supreme Dark Lord orders it, but those men who rely on logic rather than emotion are free to ask the questions you cannot.

    You still aren’t very good at trolling for flames. Perhaps you should find a new hobby? Ask your Supreme Dark Lord to tell you what to do.

  425. Anonymous Reader says:

    Rollo Tomassi has a new essay up at The Rational Male. It compliments this essay.

    therationalmale.com/2019/09/19/unmarriageable/

  426. Anonymous Reader says:

    Oscar
    Conan the Barbarian is a fictional movie based on a comic book

    There exists a longer rabbit trail. “Conan” was written by Robert E. Howard in the 1930’s. His biography is rather sad, and dark.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Robert_E._Howard

  427. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    Those who are trying to stop the blackpilling are doing so because they can see that there is a future to take hold of for those with courage.

    So far you and the others from Vox Day’s site have conspicuously failed in that effort. Failed. Failed.
    If you are attempting to persuade men to do something, insulting them / ridiculing them / trolling them might not be the best approach. Although it is quite common. Especially among older men, who have no clue what the marriage market actually looks like. In other words, you and Day are writing like 60+ year old Boomers, and the results are no surprise.

    Gotta admit that you all managed to drag a fair number of virulent, despairing men in here with you…so if that’s your metric of success, You Win! The rest of us could do without it, though.

    Your stated goal is not even close to the actual results. Should something change? Or are the stated goals just words, and the actual results what y’all really wanted from the start?

  428. emery says:

    @AR
    “A fair question at this point: has he taken his own advice? If so, how’s it going? IF not, why not? The answer would be interesting one way or another.”

    Yes I search for women who are, for one reason or another, outcast from society. I have not succeeded in finding a long term partner. Best I’ve done is a few years. As to why I’m not entirely sure (if I were I would have fixed it): I say it’s because I have not found an appropriate woman yet, though I’m sure you would chalk that up to a failure of the method. Who knows I might be a bad person and not realize it, it’s a fair guess if you don’t know me in real life. I know others who have taken the same approach and it has worked for them. On the other hand I have seen men go the mainstream route and be in terribly unhappy relationships, only two such couples in memory are even happy in their marriage (and both are boomer age).

    In either case I believe I’m better off going in an off-the-track path than the normal path-to-divorce mainstream media wants me to go. I saw enough of those mainstream routes fail and avoid them. I saw something else work, several times, and am trying my best to aim for it. If I’m simply off the mark I’ll get no relationship, worst that can happen is what would have happened to a simp who got divorce raped and committed suicide anyways. If I’m onto something I’ll end up in a workable relationship and family. It’s a gamble and work in progress.

    @The Deti
    “No. That is terrible advice. Most of the women you’re talking about are garden variety borderlines, and that’s bad enough.

    A better way to address this is to get men to learn how to see these kinds of women and avoid them.

    I suppose it doesn’t matter, because most of these damaged women you’re talking about will get married anyway. And most of them will marry the hapless, clueless beta men you want to marry them.”

    I do not wish for men to fight for ‘society’ or to get ‘garden variety borderlines’ (avoid bipolar at all costs). The advice was to look in the cracks of society for women who have fallen through yet are still pleasing to you in some way while at the same time not being loyal to the feminist narrative (which opens them to possibly be loyal to you). I spent quite some words saying to avoid the ‘garden variety’ woman that is typical of western society. I don’t care about most men getting married the response was just to answer the question, “where could one find a wife that isn’t going to pull a divorce-rape-steal-kids-watch-Opra”.

    My answer is not THE answer and I don’t pretend that it’s going to be applicable to enough men to ‘save society’: a metaphor would be if someone asked where to get food and I said sometimes small game can be found under old wooden porches where no one looks. Some people will find something there and others won’t. It won’t feed a lot of people and it won’t be the best game but for starving men it’s a chance far better than being enslaved by the Queen for crumbs. Men without options must gamble, the only question is which gamble will you choose.

    Worse men than us have found better wives than we will find in worse situations than we will ever live in. The mainstream society has been identified as the worst option (50% divorce, initiated by 80% wives) so it’s obviously not the way to go. If mainstream women are the bad choice then the obvious conclusion is that it’s women on the fringes who have the potential to be good choices. I’m just presenting a possible route to some of them. Either that or changing the entire environment to make mainstream women good choices which is probably not gonna happen.

    Your solution of simply stepping away from family and society is fine if you can stomach it. I would like children someday and am just looking for a way out. I don’t want to head into the marriage trap set for us by ‘society’, don’t want to have a horde of illegitimate children by being a Cassanova and I do not relish the search I’ve put myself on. I don’t wake up saying, “Oh boy time for some damaged women!”, all I know is,”I must find women who are not of X population.”

  429. 7817 says:

    So far you and the others from Vox Day’s site have conspicuously failed in that effort. Failed. Failed.

    I have no way of knowing how many men have been dissuaded from despair as a result of my efforts. Some blackpilled mgtows who no longer possess the ability to change their behavior screech that we have failed: their screeching is meaningless.

    I want good things for men of courage.

    Here’s how embarrassing things are for you: Rian Stone, an atheist former PUA has more hope and courage and understanding of the real situation than the “christian” blackpilled mgtows here. Read his Twitter timeline, he hates the deus vult crowd, and yet I recommend him. Why is that?

    Those of you mgtows who are blackpilled have the void left as your only basis for reasoning the way you do. You’ve abandoned reality, so it is abandoning you.

  430. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    I believe I’m better off going in an off-the-track path than the normal path-to-divorce mainstream media wants me to go.

    Are those the only two choices before you?

  431. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    I have no way of knowing how many men have been dissuaded from despair as a result of my efforts

    Have any men showed up to say “Hey, you changed my mind” so far? I do not see any. Can you name the logical fallacy you are indulging in?

    Meanwhile, for years men have commented at Rollo Tomassi’s site and on his Twitter timeline “Your books opened my eyes!” or “Your books saved my marriage” or “Your books saved my life, I was suicidal after my divorce”. Contrast and compare Tomassi’s approach to men vs. the cheap R. Lee Ermy imitation that you, Hamster and vfm7516 have been laying down.

    None of you have any authority over other men. Yet you persist in assuming that to be true. Just like some 70 year old Boomer…do you see your problem yet? Here, I shall spell it out:

    As cult followers of Vox Day, you keep pouring contempt onto men while demanding they obey you — and you have no authority to make such demands.

    But you do succeed in trolling despairing men into this site. Hamster for sure wants to jam comments, I can’t tell for sure if that is what you want or not.

    Here’s how embarrassing things are for you: Rian Stone, an atheist former PUA has more hope and courage and understanding of the real situation than the “christian” blackpilled mgtows here.

    How is that embarrassing for me?

  432. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    Your solution of simply stepping away from family and society is fine if you can stomach it.

    Deti did not say that, or anything like that. Nor would he, as anyone who’s read here long enough would know. Hint. Hint. Hint.

    You are now just making stuff up. It’s close to lying but not yet there. Suggest you back down on the false claims.

  433. SirHamster says:

    They’re asking for practical, actionable advice that will help them find the good women that Ted and Owen are telling them to marry.

    I missed some of the context of your earlier post, that you were talking about advice for “finding a good one”, but I’ve been talking about their advice in general. That said, both men have provided useful advice on the topic.

    One from Vox was to understand the marriage market of your location. In highly urban places like NYC/SF, people are looking for an adventure, not a spouse. A friend of his that had no luck finding someone in NYC moved elsewhere and did.

    What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them find the good women Owen advised them to marry?

    Stop watching porn. Stop acting like faggots.

    What model would that be?

    Your model for predicting the relative value of men in giving practical advice.

  434. emery says:

    @AR
    “Are those the only two choices before you?”
    -Marry mainstream women
    -Marry not-able-to-fit-in-the-mainstream women
    -Sleep around without marriage
    -Sleep monogamistically without marriage. Maybe hide it from the government if you’re in a common law place if being done to avoid legal consequences
    -None of the above, monastic celibacy
    Go ahead and explain to me some proven avenues otherwise, even anecdotally proven. “Leaving the country” is one for example with some pros.

    In regards to me being “close to lying”:
    From Deti: “A better way to address this is to get men to learn how to see these kinds of women and avoid them.

    I suppose it doesn’t matter, because most of these damaged women you’re talking about will get married anyway. And most of them will marry the hapless, clueless beta men you want to marry them.

    Which is why education on the male side is better, and why telling these men to avoid these women is better. These women aren’t worth it anyway. Most of these women will just end up divorcing these men anyway and destroying them anyway.

    Sorry, I do not subscribe to the “it’s better to marry a damaged woman, make a couple of kids with her, then be required to pay her half your income for the rest of your life when she divorces you, because it’s better for society than you just not procreating” viewpoint. That is the “we must save Western Civilization” viewpoint.

    Why should these men fight and die for a society that shits on them at every turn? Why should these men toss themselves on the gears of a society that will simply grind them up? You are TELLING THEM that it WILL grind them up, and you’re telling them to “go do it anyway because Western Civ needs them”. Well, if Western Civ needs them, then Western Civ needs to LEAVE THEM ALONE WHILE THEY GET WHAT THEY NEED and then BACK THEM UP when it comes time for them to exercise the authority it says they have.”

    So there’s a large part of Deti’s post. He says to avoid certain kinds of women, in particular damaged women and women who are likely to divorce you for half your income. He also says that a major justification used to tell men to marry is to ‘save civilization’ and that western civ will certainly grind men up. I conclude that we both agree that marrying women who fit well into western civilization is ill advised. He has rejected my claim of going for women who are so mentally or emotionally misshapen that they cannot conform to regular civilization. So if we agree that mainstream women are bad news, and lets say I agree with him that women who don’t fit in society are bad news, what is left? Whether I interpret him wrongly or not it is hard to believe that ‘step away from family and society’ is not a possible message to take away from it. “Step away from society” is definitely there, and I argue that ‘step away from family’ is the main contention here being discussed.

  435. 7817 says:

    As cult followers of Vox Day, you keep pouring contempt onto men while demanding they obey you

    This is a lie. I do not demand that any mgtows obey me. Simply, my message is those love despair and want others to indulge in it are worthy of contempt, and the shame they feel is justified.

  436. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    -Marry mainstream women
    -Marry not-able-to-fit-in-the-mainstream women
    -Sleep around without marriage
    -Sleep monogamistically without marriage. Maybe hide it from the government if you’re in a common law place if being done to avoid legal consequences
    -None of the above, monastic celibacy

    Your category of not-able-to-fit-in-the-mainstream women isn’t clear. That’s a communications issue. Let’s fix it.

    Reading your first comment, it looked to me and others that you were suggesting men should seek out mentally ill women (BPD, NPD, depressives, etc.) to marry. That’s simply insane. It is foolish. It is like taking all the money you have and buying lottery tickets with it. I’m not the only man who had a visceral reaction to it. I’m not the only man here who can testify to just how dangerous such a path is to a man, and to his family. Dangerous in terms of mental and even physical health.

    However it may be that you are simply suggesting men should “go fishing” in nontraditional “ponds”; that’s a very, very different thing. It would help if you could expand on that category. Because “not mainstream” could be a lot of things, and frankly I do not wish to assume I know what you mean.

    Please, elucidate.

    Also it might be useful if you laid out your requirements for a woman. I assume that you have read Dalrock’s articles on “should you open a position on a wife” and “interviewing a perspective wife”, if you have not then use the search window / bar at the top of the page.

    So there’s a large part of Deti’s post. He says to avoid certain kinds of women, in particular damaged women and women who are likely to divorce you for half your income

    Yes, it’s similar to what he’s said before. It is less expensive to screen out a damaged woman before marriage than to deal with her afterwards, and much less expensive than after one or more child(ren) have been born. Now, how do you suppose Deti knows that to be true?

    If you want to know something about a man here, ask him. Don’t assume, don’t make stuff up, just ask. That’s the right path.

  437. Anonymous Reader says:

    Me
    As cult followers of Vox Day, you keep pouring contempt onto men while demanding they obey you

    7817
    This is a lie. I do not demand that any mgtows obey me.

    It certainly appears that you are making that exact demand. However I may have carelessly confused a comment by vfm7516 with a comment by you. IF that is the case I retract the assertion.

    However you cannot credibly deny that Hamster, vfm7516 as cult followers of Vox Day have made such demands, because they are aping your Supreme Dark Lord in the cheap R. Lee Ermy imitation. Again, just like the 70 year old Boomers, and again with the same effect.

    Simply, my message is those love despair and want others to indulge in it are worthy of contempt,

    I see.

    So you and other VFM’s are walking down the road and come across a man who has been frivorced, beaten, robbed, thrown in a ditch. Being good churchgoing people, you veer to the other side of the road in order to hurry past, not looking at him. Wouldn’t want to be late to church or work, for sure.

    Later on a manospherian comes along, sees this man, stops the bleeding, gets him out of the ditch, shows him how to bind his wounds, does his best to help him get aid. Offers help and empathy, rather than contempt.

    Does this story seem familiar to you in any way? Just curious.

    and the shame they feel is justified.

    You haven’t noted that many of them do not feel shame, any more than the poolside PUA’s do? Therefore heaping shame on them has no beneficial effect? Therefore to continue to attempt to shame those men is counterproductive, and merely leads to more flaming and no thought?

    I’m trying to figure out if you really know what you’re doing. It’s not clear yet.

  438. emery says:

    “Reading your first comment, it looked to me and others that you were suggesting men should seek out mentally ill women (BPD, NPD, depressives, etc.) to marry. That’s simply insane. It is foolish. It is like taking all the money you have and buying lottery tickets with it. I’m not the only man who had a visceral reaction to it. I’m not the only man here who can testify to just how dangerous such a path is to a man, and to his family. Dangerous in terms of mental and even physical health.

    However it may be that you are simply suggesting men should “go fishing” in nontraditional “ponds”; that’s a very, very different thing. It would help if you could expand on that category. Because “not mainstream” could be a lot of things, and frankly I do not wish to assume I know what you mean.”

    The second, fishing in extremely nontraditional ponds. Incredibly extreme. I do not advocate bipolar girls and, in fact, I regard them as being held as part of the ‘mainstream’. What you define as mentally ill (BPD, NPD, depressives) women are not shamed/shunned but are in many cases celebrated for depression, bipolar, hysteria and other such things. The woman who dreams a man raped her and accuses them is held up as a heroine. These women are part of western civilization now and a primary group catered to by it. These women ‘fit-in’ incredibly well: they command the police, the courts, the media and the white knights. To everyone’s loss they are a driving force of civilization as we know it now.

    On the other hand (for example) a woman who hates clubbing is held as a pariah. If a woman hates clubbing there’s a decent chance it’s because she has a fear of people, trauma or something incredibly unusual about her emotional or mental makeup. It could be that she’s incredibly well mannered because she was trained by an ideal father but at the point we’re at I argue that the woman who is like this because of malady is still better than the socially approved of woman. Society does not approve of this woman in either case. And more than that because of their specific unusual nature it’s going to be different for every man to find someone like this. Find an amish girl, a girl isolated in a small town because of exile, a girl who has severe daddy issues for exactly your type and kept herself a virgin because of it – the common thing is that all of these girls don’t fit into the mainstream.

    Requirements for a woman:
    -“Ride or Die” girl. She will change her religion for me. Obedience in short.
    -Not overly attached to modern societal approval. This means I’m not competing with facebook and instagram too hard. It’s always gonna be there but some women are just too far gone. Hence looking for girls who are already not approved of. Finding girls who are already outcasts also helps with the problem we read of foreign wives who come to america and become thot-cunts just because they didn’t have the opportunity previously.
    -Not obese. The prettier the better after that.
    -Childbearing age

    Other good qualities are icing on the cake but I can’t imagine marrying up a girl who did not have those 4 things.

  439. BillyS says:

    If you are in the street and a truck is coming fast toward you, the wise thing to do is to “act on fear” and get the heck out of the way.

    Saying “don’t act on fear” may sound like great rhetoric, which it is, but lacks solid thought.

    7817,

    Many of us have no tribe. Easy to say “rely on your tribe” without information on how to find a reliable tribe. Whiff swing again.

    Clown world is dying. Let’s have the kids that will inherit the legacy of our more honorable ancestors, and give them as much hope and value as we can.

    Clown world can last a lot longer than anyone thinks it can. It is far from ending, without a “Berlin Wall tear down” event happening.

    AR,

    They are following the current Gillette marketing model: Insult your customer base to be successful!

    7817 is a secret king!

    Emery,

    You don’t know that your plan will even work and common sense says it will not, but you still push it as a good choice?

  440. BillyS says:

    Emery,

    A woman will do a lot of things in the moment, including changing her religion. That doesn’t indicate any faithfulness however.

  441. MZT says:

    @Acksiom “….address the fundamental changes in the socioeconomic market that are causing MGTOW’s growth in the first place.”
    An excellent point. A blog about marriage and relationships, either Christian or not, is exactly the place to discuss MGTOW issues and try to understand why the this movement has come about at this time in history. Although married myself for 39 years, I nevertheless see how western society has changed and become more and more anti male in the last decades. My mind boggles at the increasingly denigrating messaging about men in everything from politics, religion (as Dalrock so often points out), to commercial advertising, news, and movies. It seems to be everywhere in this era. Why is that? And is that consistently negative messaging to boys and men in mainstream society one of the reasons for the growth of the MGTOW movement? It’s interesting that one of the main tenets of the feminist movement is about the importance of raising self esteem in women, but we see no such societal movement to raise the self esteem of boys and men, quite the opposite actually. It is therefore my belief that the seemingly never ending propaganda war against men, including the #metoo hysteria, is having the effect of driving men and women apart, and facilitating MGTOW’s growth, while having a significantly depressing effect on the marriage rate in western society. And after all, when it comes to relations between men and women, words matter…a lot.

  442. Oscar says:

    @ Liz

    But, if you don’t want to argue, why are you arguing?

    Because you keep asking questions…which don’t seem rhetorical in nature.
    Like this one. And all the others.

    They’re not. But, you do realize you’re not obligated to continue to argue; right? Which therefore means that if you continue to argue, then you very much do want to argue. So then, why pretend that you don’t? It’s not as though the pretense is believable.

  443. feministhater says:

    That is correct. According to the US Census Bureau, an American male in the 30-39-year-old cohort who is 6’6″ (Owen Benjamin is taller than that) is in the 99.5 percentile. That alone places him in the top 0.5%.

    If that’s what the top 1% is than it isn’t a good enough starter for the rest of the lowly scum of the earth, now is it? Now if Owen was the best in the business, had a few million followers, made billions, had many wives, many children, the government feared him and he had a new sixteen year old woman who was fit, attractive and worshiped him every year, yeah, maybe in the one percent.

    His height is one thing but hamster didn’t stipulate that, he merely said these two clowns were in the top one percent of men and thus couldn’t provide any usable advice for the bottom 99% of men… making their bloviating entirely useless.

    It’s a shit sandwich any way you look at it.

    I will not get married to a four and game her just so Owen and McClownface Vox can have their little heaven.

  444. Oscar says:

    @ 7817

    As everyone in this space knows, we are living in the decaying corpse of a society. But that fact itself means we have tremendous possibilities to create a future right now.

    Those who are trying to stop the blackpilling are doing so because they can see that there is a future to take hold of for those with courage. We can follow the example of our ancestors, looking to ancient paths and learning to walk in them, so that our children and grandchildren will inherit something good, a healthy society.

    Look, man, I get it. I’m a married father of nine, and an engineer. It’s in my nature to build things, and that’s what I’m doing (or, trying to do) with my family. My motto is Jeremiah 29. We’re living in Babylon, but we weren’t dragged there with hooks in our lips. And we definitely didn’t live through a 2-1/2-year-long siege of our city in which people became so desperate that they ate their own children, so if the Israelite captives could build where they were planted, then so can we.

    But these young men living in despair need guidance, and I don’t mean insults and vague demands.

    Some will take guidance, and some won’t. But you have to actually give them guidance before you write them off.

  445. feministhater says:

    Clown world is dying….

  446. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    His height is one thing but hamster didn’t stipulate that, he merely said these two clowns were in the top one percent of men and thus couldn’t provide any usable advice for the bottom 99% of men… making their bloviating entirely useless.

    Sir Hamster is wrong. If Benjamin and Beale are the top 1%, then what does that make King Solomon? King Solomon wrote practical, actionable advice on a wide variety of topics that is still useful 3,000 years later, regardless of ones place in the SMV, or MMV, or whatever.

    No one is saying that Benjamin and Beale should be as efficacious as King Solomon (again, Sir Hamster is wrong), but if he could write advice useful to ordinary men, then being of high status isn’t an excuse.

  447. feministhater says:

    …they can see that there is a future to take hold of for those with courage.

    Okay, point for point, show this future, what it will be and what it will look like and how it will come about. You’ve just stated you can see it, so explain it, in detail. Every little bit.

    What exactly does it require for your splendid future to come about? Don’t nauseate us with more inane pretenses; put to words what this future will be, how it will come about, how clown world ends and how you plan to overthrow the evil that currently rules.

    What’s your plan?

  448. Oscar says:

    @ SirHamster

    One from Vox was to understand the marriage market of your location. In highly urban places like NYC/SF, people are looking for an adventure, not a spouse. A friend of his that had no luck finding someone in NYC moved elsewhere and did.

    That’s a start. I lived in LA and SF, and will never do that again. Now, when these young men arrive in happier hunting grounds, they’ll still find plenty of tares mixed in with the wheat. What specific, practical, actionable advice has Ted given these young men to distinguish the good women from the bad ones?

    Stop watching porn. Stop acting like faggots.

    Again, that’s a start. Now, when these young men stop watching porn, and “acting like faggots”, they’ll still need to distinguish good women from bad ones. What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them make that distinction?

  449. 7817 says:

    Oscar:
    But these young men living in despair need guidance, and I don’t mean insults and vague demands.

    Some will take guidance, and some won’t. But you have to actually give them guidance before you write them off.

    There’s all kinds of guidance, here on this website. Look through old posts and comments.

    The real issue is that all the blackpilling ones are those who demand to judge advice, then refuse to accept any advice. It’s a trap.

    The ones I write off are the ones who have been given advice over and over and over again and reject it all. They are not interested in improvement.

    What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men

    Are your fingers broken? Look it up yourself, if you are interested in it.

    FH:

    Okay, point for point, show this future, what it will be and what it will look like and how it will come about. You’ve just stated you can see it, so explain it, in detail. Every little bit.

    No. There is no future for you there, only for men who aren’t completely blackpilled.

  450. Oscar says:

    @ 7817

    There’s all kinds of guidance, here on this website.

    I’m aware of that. I wouldn’t keep reading here if there wasn’t. I wasn’t criticizing Dalrock. He actually gives good advice, and treats young men with respect.

    Are your fingers broken? Look it up yourself, if you are interested in it.

    Lighten up, Francis.

    I’ve listened to both Owen and Ted extensively, and have read extensively on Ted’s blog. I haven’t heard or read any practical, actionable advice from either of them on how a young man can find a good woman, which includes distinguishing between good ones and bad ones.

    Now, I may have simply missed their advice. Which is why I asked.

    If sincere questions distress you so much, it’s no wonder young men won’t listen to you.

  451. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, tell you what here is a deal for you. lets have an alter call for ANYONE on this blog who’s mind you have changed with your effervescent non stop BS.

    If anyone pops up, well give yourself a pat on the back, you saved a starfish from the rocks. failing that, can you just go the fu8k away for a while.

    You should maybe try reading the bible, what God says about marriage, relationships. You are clearly an unbiblical insulting asshole – who just dosnt know when to shut up.

    Talking to you is like arguing with the town drunk. And as useful.

    And far far less entertaining.

  452. feministhater says:

    No. There is no future for you there, only for men who aren’t completely blackpilled.

    Once again you had the opportunity to fulfill everything you bloviate on about. It wasn’t for me, dipstick, it was for all those men you apparently wanted to fucking help. You said you saw a future, and you refuse to tell everyone here about it in some vain attempt to disavow me. What an A grade slice of shit you are.

    Keep digging. Clown World has only begun. It’s end is not nigh, it is not stopping. You actually have to have a plan to circumvent the utter clusterfuck that is current society.

    You have nothing but half-arsed attempts at shaming others to go be your cannon fodder.. to build your future and not theirs.

  453. 7817 says:

    Let me put this in perspective. When I found Dalrock 4 years ago, it was a like finding hidden treasure. Someone was giving a different perspective on relationships, the man’s perspective. I had not heard things spelled out so clearly before. My relationships were a mess because I was doing what church and society told me.

    I went back and started reading his old posts, and when I heard other sites mentioned like Roissy or the last psychiatrist, or the rational male or alpha game plan I went and checked them out. They all had something good, a perspective I had not had before, or a bit of information I could use. Some were more helpful then others.

    I went through the initial frustration like everyone does, that i had been lied to. I asked some questions, and the men pointed out flaws in my thinking or in my psyche, things I needed to fix. So I did. And the process continues.

    Here’s the thing: I wanted to improve. Some of these men here are still here spouting the same blackpill BS that they were back then. Take FHater for example. Still hatin’. Not improvin’.

    There’s going to be frustration at first for men just figuring things out, and I’ve got sympathy for those guys. They were lied to and given a raw deal. But now you’ve got the truth. What’re you going to do with it?

    Anger is fine. Frustration at being lied to is normal and healthy. But use it for fuel for improvement. You don’t want to let it metasticize into the cancerous black pill poison that men like Feminist Hater and minesweeper have have given up to? Do you really want to be full of despair and hate like them?

  454. Minesweeper says:

    “@7817, tell you what here is a deal for you. lets have an alter call for ANYONE on this blog who’s mind you have changed with your effervescent non stop BS.

    If anyone pops up, well give yourself a pat on the back, you saved a starfish from the rocks. failing that, can you just go the fu8k away for a while.”

    @7817, your a butt plug.

    For the baby-aborting family-destroying feminist regime.

    Even GOD himself in human form wanted to be born into a family with a father and mother.

    That is denied now at the whims of woman.

    “You should maybe try reading the bible, what God says about marriage, relationships. You are clearly an unbiblical insulting asshole – who just dosnt know when to shut up.

    Talking to you is like arguing with the town drunk. And as useful.

    And far far less entertaining.”

    Still stands.

  455. Warthog says:

    @Oscar “And we definitely didn’t live through a 2-1/2-year-long siege of our city in which people became so desperate that they ate their own children, so if the Israelite captives could build where they were planted, then so can we.”

    We haven’t seen the siege yet, but it’s coming soon. There are 50 ways to judge a nation. You slip put the back Jack. Make a new plan Stan….

  456. feeriker says:

    Still debating the Bealeite trolls, guys? Would you care to share the reason why?

  457. Frank K says:

    Clown World has only begun. It’s end is not nigh, it is not stopping.

    Agreed, it’s going into overdrive. Few people dare speak out against the tsunami of lunacy and depravity, even though the lunatics keep turning up the dial. Just wait … pedophilia will be shoved down our throats and almost no one will raise their voice against it.

    As someone else here said: there’s no stopping the crazy train, all we can do is wait for it to derail and crash, and I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon, at least not during the years I have left.

  458. SirHamster says:

    … What specific, practical, actionable advice has Ted given these young men to distinguish the good women from the bad ones?

    …they’ll still need to distinguish good women from bad ones. What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them make that distinction?

    You’re moving goalposts on me. That said, the question is interesting to address.

    Vox, with an elitist mindset, has an opinion that most men are overrating themselves and ignoring eligible women. Have realistic expectations.

    Owen had a recent fanmail where a young man dating a woman described their differences and wanted advice. Owen pointed out that not all women are worthwhile, and that moving on was an option if she wasn’t following him.

    Sir Hamster is wrong. If Benjamin and Beale are the top 1%, then what does that make King Solomon? King Solomon wrote practical, actionable advice on a wide variety of topics that is still useful 3,000 years later, regardless of ones place in the SMV, or MMV, or whatever.

    The point of the 1% isn’t that they can’t provide useful advice “on a wide variety of topics”, it’s that their dating experience is different than the average person. Finding a “good woman” is different for men that women are attracted to, versus those who start off “unattractive” by being average.

    What practical, actionable advice did Solomon provide “to distinguish the good women from the bad ones”?

  459. Anonymous Reader says:

    emery
    The second, fishing in extremely nontraditional ponds.

    Ok, got it.

    On the other hand (for example) a woman who hates clubbing is held as a pariah. If a woman hates clubbing there’s a decent chance it’s because she has a fear of people, trauma or something incredibly unusual about her emotional or mental makeup.

    Or she just doesn’t like the noise. The college bars have a certain set of girls in them at night, the next day the college coffee shops have a different set of girls. They are all girls, of course, but with different focus.

    Find an amish girl, a girl isolated in a small town because of exile, a girl who has severe daddy issues for exactly your type and kept herself a virgin because of it – the common thing is that all of these girls don’t fit into the mainstream.

    “Daddy issues” is a big area, it encompasses a lot of different traits, some of them very risky. Let’s not be cavalier about this.

    Requirements for a woman:
    -“Ride or Die” girl. She will change her religion for me. Obedience in short.

    Legit. You will need a rock solid Frame and Game for this. Because those girls are just girls, and if you allow yourself to become betaized – say, after a child is born or a parent dies – she’ll see you differently, with all that follows.

    -Not overly attached to modern societal approval. This means I’m not competing with facebook and instagram too hard. It’s always gonna be there but some women are just too far gone. Hence looking for girls who are already not approved of. Finding girls who are already outcasts also helps with the problem we read of foreign wives who come to america and become thot-cunts just because they didn’t have the opportunity previously.

    This expands on your “out of the mainstream” observation above, it is helpful. It is possible as the ugly side of Big Social keeps leaking out that opting out could become acceptable, even fashionable.

    -Not obese. The prettier the better after that.
    -Childbearing age

    Legit. You’ll need to be in good shape yourself, and presentable. But Frame comes first.

    By the way, it’s not uncommon for 20-something women to insist ‘I don’t have any maternal instinct”, this is just hot air. All women want to reproduce, because all women are descended from women who reproduced. Baby-rabies sets in around 30 for biological reasons, because it’s “getting late” and he clock is ticking. Better to start her making babies at a younger age.

    Thanks for explaining things. I’m assuming that you’ve read Tomassi’s “Rational Male”, you also would benefit from Deep Strength’s blog and book whether you are religious or not.

  460. Thursday says:

    Interesting to see Owen B come up here. FWIW, I have a long commute and listen to Owen and Vox quite a bit. Owen is very entertaining and overall I’m a fan. However, although he seems to promote traditional roles, I think he has a big blue pill blind spot regarding women.

    Specifically, it’s strange how he takes so much pride in calling out certain ((people)), but I’ve never heard him call out women. Instead, he always says if women had strong leaders they would get in line and be the angelic beings they all really want to be. A bit of truth there obviously. But look at a couple issues with his wife. He likes to talk about how he’s “buying her back” by paying off her student loans. He never, ever, ever, says “well that was kinda dumb for her to rack up a bunch of debt on a career she didn’t need.” So he’s doing girls a disservice by not giving obvious advice and he’s implying that dudes should suck it up and pay. He also talks about how she essentially got raped while drunk, but never calls her out for acting stupidly.

    So yeah, Owen does a lot of good, and I gotta hand it to him for saying things like “women shouldn’t be able to vote.” There’s no point in communicating on his forums because he would instantly ban me. So just thought I’d float those thoughts here and see if anyone has noticed the same things. Oh yeah, as people have mentioned up stream, his advice on finding women is pretty lame too. Standard-fare “just be more awesomer so all those sluts will shape up.” Easy for the super-tall, funny, rich, famous guy to say….

  461. Thursday says:

    BTW, I refer Owen-fans to Dalrock any chance I get.

  462. BillyS says:

    SirHamster,

    Vox, with an elitist mindset, has an opinion that most men are overrating themselves and ignoring eligible women. Have realistic expectations.

    What a joke. My wife was well within my target range. Yet she proved unfaithful. Try again.

    The point of the 1% isn’t that they can’t provide useful advice “on a wide variety of topics”, it’s that their dating experience is different than the average person. Finding a “good woman” is different for men that women are attracted to, versus those who start off “unattractive” by being average.

    He was a reprobate as far as I can tell from his own story at the time when he met his wife. Perhaps not, but he certainly had his phase based on what he has said.

    I guess we just all needed to have that phase first and we should not have expected anything from our wives because we weren’t willing to do that or some other secret sauce recipe. We are liars because we disagree with his decree though, and you repeat the same decree. No shifting goalposts here, it is all the same thing.

    AR,

    A woman can seem to love her dad, but then get mad at you for “saying the same things he said”. (Not necessarily completely true, but it can be used as an accusation and show she is offended with her dad, even if it was otherwise hidden.)

  463. Oscar says:

    @ SirHamster

    … What specific, practical, actionable advice has Ted given these young men to distinguish the good women from the bad ones?

    …they’ll still need to distinguish good women from bad ones. What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them make that distinction?

    You’re moving goalposts on me.

    False. That’s the issue I’ve been addressing all along.

    That said, the question is interesting to address.

    Vox, with an elitist mindset, has an opinion that most men are overrating themselves and ignoring eligible women. Have realistic expectations.

    Owen had a recent fanmail where a young man dating a woman described their differences and wanted advice. Owen pointed out that not all women are worthwhile, and that moving on was an option if she wasn’t following him.

    Okay, so – to be clear – just as I stated from the beginning, neither Benjamin, nor Beale have given young men any practical, actionable advice to distinguish good women from bad ones. Is that accurate? If not, can you provide any evidence that they’ve given young men practical, actionable advice to distinguish good women from bad ones?

    The point of the 1% isn’t that they can’t provide useful advice “on a wide variety of topics”, it’s that their dating experience is different than the average person. Finding a “good woman” is different for men that women are attracted to, versus those who start off “unattractive” by being average.

    What practical, actionable advice did Solomon provide “to distinguish the good women from the bad ones”?

    I’ll answer that question as soon as you directly answer the question I’ve asked you multiple times now.

    Please answer, “yes”, or “no”.

    Have either Benjamin, or Beale given young men any practical, actionable advice to distinguish good women from bad ones?

    If they have, then please provide the practical, actionable advice Benjamin or Beale gave young men to help them distinguish good women from bad ones.

  464. Oscar says:

    @ Thursday

    … I’ve never heard him [Owen Benjamin] call out women. Instead, he always says if women had strong leaders they would get in line and be the angelic beings they all really want to be.

    Which is another way of saying “women are responders”.

    Which is another way of saying that everything that goes wrong in a marriage is the man’s fault.

    How is that any different than what the feminists and complementarians say?

    Everyone who defends Benjamin and Beale keep proving my points for me, yet you all insist on arguing with me. It’s bizarre.

  465. SirHamster says:

    False. That’s the issue I’ve been addressing all along.

    Your intended topic may be the same, but the questions you are asking aren’t.

    “What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them find the good women Owen advised them to marry?”

    “What specific, practical, actionable advice has Owen given young men to help them make that distinction [of good women from bad ones]?”

    Finding good women and distinguishing women are different scopes. Unfucking oneself is foundational to both.

    Okay, so – to be clear – just as I stated from the beginning, neither Benjamin, nor Beale have given young men any practical, actionable advice to distinguish good women from bad ones. Is that accurate?

    “never given” I won’t agree with. I would agree Vox doesn’t usually give practical advice on distinguishing good women from bad ones, but not for Owen. Owen answers questions from his audience. People ask him all sorts of questions and he answers them on his daily streams.

    The Owen example earlier was direct advice on whether to continue dating a particular girl, which is directly related to distinguishing “good women from the bad ones.” I don’t remember the specific words, but the woman was pro-abortion and didn’t seem willing to give that up, so Owen told the young man it was okay to move on, and something about not trying to save women.

    Also bearing in mind that from their perspective, most women just need a good man to lead them, because most women would willingly follow them. That’s the 1% perspective that I’m talking about. They don’t see the marriage search as finding the “good one” unicorn.

    I’ll answer that question as soon as you directly answer the question I’ve asked you multiple times now.

    I’ve answered the questions you asked. I’ve missed context, but I am giving you good faith responses.

  466. Oscar says:

    @ SirHamster

    Finding good women and distinguishing women are different scopes.

    False again. In order to find a good woman, you first have to know what distinguishes a good one from a bad one. It’s just like trying to pick a genuine $100 bill from a mixed pile of genuine, and counterfeit bills. You can’t pick a genuine bill out of a mixed pile (except by sheer luck) unless you know how to distinguish genuine from counterfeit.

    I would agree Vox doesn’t usually give practical advice on distinguishing good women from bad ones…

    “Doesn’t usually” implies that sometimes he does. If so, then why haven’t you provided a single example yet?

    The Owen example earlier was direct advice on whether to continue dating a particular girl, which is directly related to distinguishing “good women from the bad ones.” I don’t remember the specific words, but the woman was pro-abortion and didn’t seem willing to give that up, so Owen told the young man it was okay to move on, and something about not trying to save women.

    Is that the best you have? If so, then just like “Thursday” up above, you’ve proven my point, yet you insist on arguing with me for some bizarre reason.

    Also bearing in mind that from their perspective, most women just need a good man to lead them, because most women would willingly follow them. That’s the 1% perspective that I’m talking about. They don’t see the marriage search as finding the “good one” unicorn.

    That also helps prove my point. It’s another variation on the “women are responders” BS. Plus, they tell young men “marry a good one”, the they “don’t see the marriage search as find the ‘good one'”, according to you. What’s a young man supposed to do with such self-contradictory instruction?

    I’ve answered the questions you asked.

    Not really. But that’s not surprising. Still, I said I’d answer your question, so here you go.

    Distinguishing bad ones:
    Proverbs 2
    Proverbs 5
    Proverbs 7
    Proverbs 9
    Proverbs 14:1
    Proverbs 21:9
    Proverbs 25:24
    Proverbs 27:15

    Note how King Solomon (an apex alpha, if ever such a thing existed) warned against bad women. Why? Because – unlike Benjamin and Beale – he understood that “women are responders” is a giant, steaming pile of manure.

    To the list above, one can add all the Proverbs against laziness, foolish spending, foolishness in general, and more.

    Distinguishing good ones:
    Proverbs 8
    Proverbs 14:1
    Proverbs 31

    Note how King Solomon spent a lot more time, effort and ink on bad women, than on good ones.

    To Proverbs 31, one can add all the Proverbs on industriousness, diligence, thrift, wisdom, obedience, and more.

    Note how I’m able to quickly provide multiple, specific examples, yet you had great trouble providing even one vague example.

  467. SirHamster says:

    False again. In order to find a good woman, you first have to know what distinguishes a good one from a bad one.

    You acknowledge that they are different scopes by saying you “first have to” do one before you can do the other. I don’t see what you think has been falsified.

    Finding a good woman can be a matter of positioning and prep in skills and attitude. Distinguishing what is a good woman is a matter of judgement, which can still take some prep in skills and attitude.

    “Doesn’t usually” implies that sometimes he does. If so, then why haven’t you provided a single example yet?

    Because I don’t care about your approval for what counts as a “single example”. I’m not interested in chasing your goalposts.

    Unfucking yourself is step #1. Can’t discriminate what is a good woman if you’re blinded by blue-pill thinking or gamma self-deception. Both Owen and Vox have done a lot of work helpful for men undoing their globohomo programming.

    Note how I’m able to quickly provide multiple, specific examples, yet you had great trouble providing even one vague example.

    That’s more because you’ve already decided that they’re not helpful and that any examples of advice don’t count because reasons.

    Which is fine, I’ve said my piece on the topic.

  468. BillyS says:

    Knowing women aren’t prefect angels does nothing to help a man find a reliable one to marry.

    You have failed, but you can’t admit it because it breaks the claim that opponents are just liars who are into porn.

    I would say “quit being an idiot” but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

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