You better do as she says, or she’ll take away your kids.

In response to A dangerous truth, commenter Anonymous Reader challenged my assertion that as a sociology professor, Wilcox had to understand that there are public policy reasons fathers are being kicked out of their children’s lives.  For reference, here is the quote he was responding to, in context:

If fathers don’t fear losing access to their children, mothers can’t use this fear to threaten them.  As a sociology professor, Wilcox has to understand the public policy reason fathers are being kicked out of their children’s lives.  Men didn’t suddenly and mysteriously become less responsible;  government kicked fathers out of the home to empower mothers.  Yet Wilcox ignores this elephant in the middle of the room in his testimony to Congress.

Anonymous Reader countered with:

No, he does not have to understand any such thing. First of all, his paycheck depends in part of not understanding it. Second of all, we’ve both seen vids of him speaking: he is a deeply betaized man.

It would hurt his eyes a great deal at this point in his career to actually open them and see what the child-support paradigm of marriage really looks like. Because he might have to admit that he is part of that machine, that he’s been playing his own designated part / role in the Kabuki theater of “Fixing The Family”.

I agree that Wilcox’s has huge incentives not to see what is really going on.  But the theory that threatening to take men’s children away is an effective way to achieve feminist goals is something that a sociology professor who specializes in marriage would absolutely be very familiar with.  This is part of a larger theory called Intra-household bargaining.  Key to this model is the “threat point”.  From the Intergalactic article on the topic (red emphasis mine):

Bargaining power

Bargaining power is “the relative capacity of each of the parties to a negotiation or dispute to compel or secure agreements on its own terms”.[1] In other words, “if both parties are on equal footing in a debate, then they will have equal bargaining power”, and, conversely, if one party has an advantageous position in the debate, the parties have unequal bargaining power.

More specifically, what determines the equality or inequality of bargaining power is the relative fallback positions or “threat points” of the individuals in the bargaining process; that is, which bargainer has more to lose (economically, socially, etc.)?[2] In the context of intra-household bargaining, an individual’s bargaining power and fallback position are defined by one’s ability to survive and thrive outside the family.[10]

Not surprisingly, feminists love this model, seeing it as a way for women to make men do what women want.  For example, in her paper Cleaning in the Shadow of the Law? Bargaining, Marital Investment, and the Impact of Divorce Law on Husbands’ Intra-Household Work, Jennifer Roff explains that threatening to take men’s children away is an effective way to coerce them into doing a much larger share of the housework:

…once children are born, men face potentially greater costs to divorce than women due to custody loss, which allows women control over the most important marital capital, as well as direct decision making regarding expenditure of child support. Brinig and Allen (2000) find that maternal custody following divorce is one of the strongest predictors of the female initiating divorce proceedings, with similar negative effects of paternal custody on female initiation of divorce.

…columns 4 and 7 indicate that joint custody and unilateral divorce laws have significant interacting incentive effects on father’s household work. Consistent with a bargaining response, the increase in household work seen with unilateral divorce is primarily limited to those fathers who do not live in joint custody states and therefore face the probable loss of custody of their child upon divorce. Unilateral divorce laws increase fathers’ share of household work by roughly 8 percentage points in those states without joint custody laws. However, this increase in paternal share of household work with unilateral divorce is eliminated completely in those states with joint child custody. Given that fathers’ share of household work is about 25%, distributional effects of unilateral divorce on intra-household work are significant, with unilateral divorce in states without joint custody leading to an increase of close to 33% in fathers’ share of household work.

She closes by reminding the reader that there is a public policy opportunity here to achieve more feminist outcomes within marriage by enabling mothers to take men’s children away via no fault divorce:

Of course, this study faces several limitations, including the limited nature of time use data in the PSID. Still, given the relatively large increases in fathers’ household work and decreased leisure following unilateral divorce laws, this research suggests that men, and fathers in particular, may behave strategically in response to changes in marital policy.

This is truly ugly business, and this kind of cold calculating discussion of the benefits of ripping men’s children away is disturbingly common.  As a sociology professor, and as the president of the National Marriage Project for the last 10 years, there is no way Professor Wilcox is unaware of this.

Related:

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Child Custody, Child Support, Divorce, Fatherhood, Infogalactic, Marriage, National Marriage Project, Threatpoint, Turning a blind eye, W. Bradford Wilcox. Bookmark the permalink.

268 Responses to You better do as she says, or she’ll take away your kids.

  1. Peasant says:

    In more recent negotiation literature the similar-but-not-identical concept of BATNA*/walkaway-point is usually used in place of threat-point. Obviously substituting the term makes no difference in this context.

    *”best alternative to negotiated agreement”

  2. Anonymous Reader says:

    Whether Bradford Wilcox knows of these things or not is moot. The fact that such policies exist, and that plenty of feminists regard them as useful tools for coercion of men is a sufficient indictment of modern anti-family policy. Yeah, I know, Not All Feminists Are Like That, but really..most of them are.

  3. Anon says:

    As a sociology professor, and as the president of the National Marriage Project for the last 10 years, there is no way Professor Wilcox is unaware of this.

    Of course he knows these things. But his cushy sinecure (which requires him to write one article per year) is contingent on him running interference to hide what the real problem is.

    Is this the face of a man who is willing to take a stand against a normalized evil against men?

  4. CSI says:

    Jennifer Roff explains that threatening to take men’s children away is an effective way to coerce them into doing a much larger share of the housework

    Of course she would say this. I’ve read enough female blogs to get the idea that husbands not doing their “fair share” of household chores and childcare is close to the main concern of wives nowadays, and the main cause of wives resenting their husbands. I wonder if it was this bad in earlier generations.

  5. Minesweeper says:

    @AR, Brad is just doing the standard feminist thing, but but: “Think of the children(tm)” and fu8k all men.

  6. thedeti says:

    I’ve read enough female blogs to get the idea that husbands not doing their “fair share” of household chores and childcare is close to the main concern of wives nowadays, and the main cause of wives resenting their husbands. I wonder if it was this bad in earlier generations.

    No. All this is a symptom of the real cause: The fact that these wives had to settle for their husbands; that these wives are not sexually attracted to these men they settled for; and these women feel trapped in marriages to men they don’t want to have sex with.

    Everything else is a symptom.

    “You don’t do enough around here.”

    “You don’t make enough money.”

    “You dont’ work.”

    “We’ve got money problems.”

    “I’m unhaaaaaaaappy.”

    “The kids are a pain in the neck.”

    All of these translate to

    “I’m not sexually attracted to you and I don’t want to have sex with you.”

    These same women complaining about their husbands’ ineffectiveness and the money problems and the household chores were having sex with F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer on the frameless mattress in his cockroach infested apartment a few years before she married Mr. Beta.

    These same women were riding around town on the back of Harley McBadboy’s bike.

    These same women were also partying down with Frank Fratboy in college.

    How many dishes do you think F**kbuddy, Harley and Frank did? How many chores did they do? How much money did they earn? What jobs did they work?

  7. desylves says:

    “Given that fathers’ share of household work is about 25%, distributional effects of unilateral divorce on intra-household work are significant, with unilateral divorce in states without joint custody leading to an increase of close to 33% in fathers’ share of household work.”

    And given what we know about how household work contributions are calculated, often time completely ommiting the great deal of work men do, it’s completely reasonable to expect the percentage of household chores that men feel ‘coerced’ in to doing is much, much larger than the 33% reported in that particular study.

  8. Novaseeker says:

    How many dishes do you think F**kbuddy, Harley and Frank did? How many chores did they do? How much money did they earn? What jobs did they work?

    What it is, is that when the sexual attraction or hot/urgent/non-negotiable desire isn’t there, every single one of the husband’s beta/dad/partner/provision aspects that is less than perfect comes under very exacting, strict scrutiny, because that’s all the guy ever brought to the table for the woman anyway. That’s what his JOB is. That’s WHY SHE MARRIED HIM, in the first place — Lord knows it wasn’t because he was hot, because she couldn’t marry the hot guy for various reasons (unavailable, unsuitable). So every single shortcoming in the beta/dad/partner/provider area becomes a deal-breaker issue, since that is the reason she married him to begin with.

    If the sexual stuff is there, the rest doesn’t matter, because that isn’t what she was looking for from the guy to begin with.

    Women view us as two different sub-species.

  9. Anon says:

    Women view us as two different sub-species.

    The good news is, it is not hard to be in the top 20% of men in SMV.

    There is so much betatude and neediness out there that one doesn’t need the best possible Game, or extremely good looks, or even great wealth to be in the Top 20% (the level at which the interest that a man gets from women surges explosively).

  10. Cane Caldo says:

    Wilcox knows, and he likes it. Many men, upon observing that women are weaker in every way yet believing equality should be achieved above all else, are happy to put their finger on the scales.

  11. thedeti says:

    Anon

    You just have to refuse to put up with being Mr. Household Chores/Beta Bucks. If as Nova says, all she wants you for is beta provider/dad/partner, you just say “no” and move on. The problem is knowing whether you’re Alpha/sexy/hot, or Beta provider/dad/partner. Sorry to say but almost all the time you can tell which one you are by how she treats you and how she responds to sexual escalation. So if you’re getting treated as beta provider and her responses to escalation are tepid, you’re a beta and you move on.

    The problem also is that most men don’t understand that’s how it works.

  12. Minesweeper says:

    @thedeti says:”“You don’t do enough around here.”

    “You don’t make enough money.”

    “You dont’ work.”

    “We’ve got money problems.”

    “I’m unhaaaaaaaappy.”

    “The kids are a pain in the neck.”

    All of these translate to ;

    DIVORCE

    DIVORCE

    DIVORCE

    DIVORCE

    DIVORCE

    DIVORCE

    DIVORCE

    Problem solved.

  13. Daniel says:

    A woman is going to grow tired of just about any man she’s with over time. Unless she genuinely loves him, and that means she respects him. Such a thing is pretty rare. It usually requires a proper upbringing, a natural propensity, and proper husbanding. Not exactly a unicorn, but rarer than rubies.

    The current legal situation is that a man has no claim to his wife, children, possessions, or even future income. That is demoralizing, and strips men of the respect that they need. A man’s wife says “you don’t own me!” and everyone agrees with that sentiment. A man asks “what am I sacrificing for?”

    It is not only risky to get married for legal reasons, there is less reward in the way of respect from your wife, children, and certainly society at large. Good luck finding a church full of people who properly respect fatherhood and husband-hood.

  14. white says:

    There’s a common belief within the Manosphere that feminist men don’t see the truth becos they are “weak”, or “beta”. Supposedly by being “strong”er or less beta they would somehow see the truth. This of course implies that the man within the Manosphere must be “alpha” or higher SMV simply becos he knows certain truths other men don’t.

  15. thedeti says:

    The funny thing about men being two different subspecies (alpha f**cks for sex; beta bucks for everything else) is that depending on context, timing, and the woman doing the assessment, the same man can be seen as residing in both subspecies at different times, or at the same time.

    Schrodinger’s beta.

  16. Joe says:

    thedeti says:
    August 28, 2019 at 3:36 pm
    I’ve read enough female blogs to get the idea that husbands not doing their “fair share” of household chores and childcare is close to the main concern of wives nowadays, and the main cause of wives resenting their husbands. I wonder if it was this bad in earlier generations.
    **********************************************

    I think the reason this is an issue is because of women who work outside of the home. Then they feel like the have to divide up housework to make it all “fair”.

    My wife stayed home. I never once was told that I should do more or do my “fair share”. She knew, and in fact told me that it was her job to take care of the home and keep it clean, get up each day and put on nice clothes, makeup and look nice, do all of the shopping and food prep, make my lunch for me every day for work, have dinner going when I got home and get up with crying babies at night.

    She literally told me those things. I still remember the discussion before we got married (but after we were engauged).

    I came home every evening to dinner cooking, placemats and cloth napkins, and a calm, clean household.

    We were not rich by any stretch. We were solid middle class. She never once complained about money. She was and still is very good with budgets.Whatever we had, she made it work. She shopped sales, clipped coupons and got lots of kids clothes and stuff at garage sales. Since she didn’t work, she had time for that. She considered managing the houshold her job. With her support, I went back to school , advanced in my career and we moved to a nicer place in a better neighborhood. I only could do tha twith her support.

    And even with a baby (then two), she still took time to volunteer for meals on wheels and deliver food with baby in tow. She also ran a babysitting coop with friends, so we never paid for a sitter and went out regularly.

    She selflessly devoted herself to my care and the care of our home and kids.

    I know her primary motivation was to please God by being a good wife and mother. And by doing that, she pleased me. She still takes care of the home front.

    And she told me a few months ago while we were attending a friends wedding “you know your’e still the best looking man I’ve ever known”. 🙂 Not bad after 30+ years.

  17. Anonymous Reader says:

    white
    There’s a common belief within the Manosphere that feminist men don’t see the truth becos they are “weak”, or “beta”

    Who believes that, and where have they written? Could you please point to some examples?
    Thanks.

  18. Sharrukin2 says:

    Anon says:

    August 28, 2019 at 3:55 pm

    Women view us as two different sub-species.

    The good news is, it is not hard to be in the top 20% of men in SMV.

    There is so much betatude and neediness out there that one doesn’t need the best possible Game, or extremely good looks, or even great wealth to be in the Top 20% (the level at which the interest that a man gets from women surges explosively)

    Good news?

    And the prize you get for the effort is what exactly?

    You put the time and effort in and of course you have to keep it up year after year and never get sick or suffer a setback and in return for that you get…?

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    @CSI
    “Previous generations” far enough back in time were more concerned about survival than “fairness”. That women can afford to complain about who vacuums the living room vs. who loads the dishwasher vs. who reads a story to the children at bedtime simply demonstrates how incredibly flush the Western world is with resources.

    Women complain. They become contentious (see Proverbs). It’s a normal part of their life pattern, but it’s nothing to base government policy on.

  20. Ray6777 says:

    Any man can find out what category he is in by putting a good picture on a dating app/site. If you don’t get any/many messages, you’re in the Beta plowhorse category. Start building another life and don’t fall to the temptation to be a Beta Bucks. 50 years ago a Beta Bucks could have a decent marriage but not now and it gets worse every year.

  21. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Novaseeker: So every single shortcoming in the beta/dad/partner/provider area becomes a deal-breaker issue, since that is the reason she married him to begin with.

    I suppose it’s worse than that. The wife of a Beta is looking for excuses to resent him. She wants to find fault. She needs to morally justify her resentment of him.

    Whenever a Beta washes dishes, she resents him all the more, because he’s taking away her excuse to hate him and eventually leave him.

    He washes dishes, and it angers her. She doesn’t know why, but it does.

  22. “It’s okay to threaten a man’s relationship with his children to get him to do more of the laundry!”

    Wow, these are deeply sick people.

  23. “The good news is, it is not hard to be in the top 20% of men in SMV.”

    LOL

  24. Anon says:

    LOL

    Yep. It’s called Game. You should look into it.

    The Game-denialist incels have never managed to present a cogent argument why they insist absolutely nothing about a man’s attractiveness to women is actually within his control, and why some men, who don’t have vast wealth or exceptional looks, still consistently bed hot women.

  25. CSI says:

    “Previous generations” far enough back in time were more concerned about survival than “fairness”.
    Good point. I suppose people, men and women, were so busy they didn’t have much spare time. Its strange, the more spare time women have the more resentful and unhappy of their husbands they seem to become.

    Yep. It’s called Game. You should look into it.
    Most men aren’t realistically going to be able to elevate themselves to the status “alpha”. And even if they could, they’d have to maintain it indefinitely to keep their wives from getting bored and dissatisfied, which is probably even harder.

    I think just until recently women were bought up to accept they probably wouldn’t marry a man who gave them magic tingles (“butterflies” or “chemistry”), and the culture strongly encouraged them to stay married even after whatever attraction they had felt diminished. Nowadays women label marrying a man who doesn’t make them tingle as “settling” and they seem to regard it as a serious sin.

  26. Sharrukin2 says:

    Anon says:

    August 28, 2019 at 7:33 pm

    LOL

    Yep. It’s called Game. You should look into it.

    The Game-denialist incels have never managed to present a cogent argument why they insist absolutely nothing about a man’s attractiveness to women is actually within his control, and why some men, who don’t have vast wealth or exceptional looks, still consistently bed hot women
    ‐———————-

    You know you can buy that kind of loyalty and the best part is they go away afterwards.

    Sooner or later you just want to be able to relax, let your guard down and not have to worry about negging someone, maintaining frame, or any of the rest of it.

    I don’t deny that it works. I know that it does and it just makes me feel tired all over.

    I just don’t want to have to live that way. Why would I want to share my house with someone I can never really trust? Someone I have to constantly game to keep them from going feral.

  27. locustsplease says:

    While i do think wilson is a intentional liar the blue pill is a suffocating tar pit of female imperative. It aint just him i do not know a single person who understands this truth outside the manosphere. The whole thing is very complicated and hidden.

    We are a small minority.

    Somewhat off topic half a decade with my blinders off have made me see god made the strong to rule. Not women and not weak slugs like brad wilcox peroid. Men who ruled risked things. How did people who if they ran a shovel for a day would break their hands and spirit end up totally ruling a society made of steel and concrete?

    The idea that the physically weak are pure of heart is a lie and as unnatural as transgenderism. They are physically emotionally and spirtually weak they are genetic losers with out our manufactured environment called the modern world.

    Wilcox looks like he can barely fight a cold. What im saying is you have to hold x power in the physical world to have even the ability for abstract thought about fairness for others. If you do not have x power in your life the struggle for survival is too hard. Men like wilcox and women are willing to compromise any value you put before them to gain any leverage over those who would naturally hold power above them, and fairness never crossed their mind:)

  28. The Mgtows are correct.
    They were right all along.
    Men should never marry. Men should never co-habitate either.
    There is no having your own children. There are no assurances of paternity. The children are never yours.
    It is not one giant lie.
    But thousands of lies. Like a thousand papercuts.

    And God’s arms must be folded purveying this ridiculousness.
    When He should have dispatched us to oblivion long ago and started over.

  29. @Sharrukin2

    I don’t deny that it works. I know that it does and it just makes me feel tired all over.
    I just don’t want to have to live that way. Why would I want to share my house with someone I can never really trust? Someone I have to constantly game to keep them from going feral.

    I think a common response to men like you will be – since you have acknowledged that game works (I agree also that it does work), is that no matter how fatigued and tired or indifferent you may feel, you still will have to engage and maintain frame, whether you want to or not. You don’t get the respite you claim withdrawing from the field of play affords you. You have to compete, or be eaten alive. They will say “you still cannot ever escape the male burden of performance, and the requirement to compete” (career, relationships, etc.)

    I think there is some degree of truth to this assertion about men. Men are plentiful (as of today), and indeed disposable, and always carry the burden of performance during their lives regardless, whether he decides to have females in tow or not.

    Nevertheless, since I was very young I have observed with absolute amazement all that is possible with freedom and liberty afford the life of a bachelor.

  30. When are we going to learn? There is ZERO benefit in getting married to the modern western woman, and in fact it’s extremely dangerous, nigh well suicidal to do so.
    This thread once again proves what I’m saying is correct. When the current model of marriage is so disgusting and biased towards women that it makes the Islamic way of marriage appealing, then you know something is seriously wrong

  31. Sharrukin2 says:

    Constrainedlocus says:

    August 28, 2019 at 10:43 pm

    @Sharrukin2

    They will say “you still cannot ever escape the male burden of performance, and the requirement to compete” (career, relationships, etc.)

    Nevertheless, since I was very young I have observed with absolute amazement all that is possible with freedom and liberty afford the life of a bachelor.
    -‐——————-

    That is the thing. As far as work and career go I don’t put as much effort into it as I otherwise might because I am the only one I have to please. I also get paid and reap the benefits of my efforts. I don’t actually need that much and since I have more than enough to live as I wish I am not going to keep slogging away at it.

    I have no inclination to just hand it over to some bint because I am told that I must for…reasons?

    As far as any serious or long term relationship goes i just don’t see the risk as being worth it. The potential downside is enormous and the prize is some broken aging woman who doesn’t want anything to do with me but financially must because the guy she was banging when she was young didn’t want to marry her.

    She has a decade or so of failed relationships and emotional baggage and when she can’t put off marriage anymore I am expected to step up and provide for her…for reasons.

    I am unlikely to be the love of her life. I am unlikely to be her best lover. I am unlikely to be the man she wanted to marry. I am what she settled for when she couldn’t get what she really wanted and the best part is that she will resent me for not being the asshole who tossed her away.

    I have no inclination to agree to such a deal.

  32. Incredulous_K says:

    “Schrodinger’s Beta”
    Fantastic. Nice one Deti. Could not be more true. I came out of lurking just to affirm the LOL.

  33. feministhater says:

    No. All this is a symptom of the real cause: The fact that these wives had to settle for their husbands; that these wives are not sexually attracted to these men they settled for; and these women feel trapped in marriages to men they don’t want to have sex with.

    Bang fucking on. 150%. All these women are doing is looking for any and all excuses to get themselves out of the marriage but with the full support of the system so as not to lose out on resources.

    Do not get married. It really is that simple. They don’t love you and they don’t care about you.

  34. Opus says:

    I like each day to check the obits – if only to satisfy myself that I am not there.

    Today I read of the death of one Jessie Combs aged just thirty nine. Combs a woman who had a partner (different surname but what does that prove these days) and child was a good looking peroxide blonde whose aim in life was to be as good as any man in her case by driving as fast as was humanly possible. It was that which killed her. leaving a grieving husband and unhappy children. Naturally a foundation is to be set up in her honour to inspire young women to achieve their dreams. It is clear to me that America hates women for surely no other country would encourage women to do something so pointless and dangerous and to what purpose I know not what. Anyway, the land speed record whether of petrol driven or rocket driven cars is always maintained by a British male (as it is) even though we have to borrow your Salt Lake Flats as our country is neither wide enough nor flat enough to successfully make the attempt. I once attempted to break the world speed record when I took my Mini Cooper down a hill on the A2 and at about ninety miles an hour – the one where a front later fell off as I was parking which is as fast as it will go and far faster than any British made car may safely travel. I am thus an inspiration to the terminally stupid to pursue their dreams.

  35. Lost Patrol says:

    Nick M,

    Men imagine they are exercising the inherent right to self defense.

    But actually…

    “It’s yet another form of victim-blaming; another way to quietly put women back in their place.”

    Some day, somehow, a most marvelous and wonderful thing will occur on the earth. It will be the thing wherein women are not hardest hit. I look forward to it.

  36. Andrew says:

    Seems we men adjusted. “She’ll take away the kids? What kids?”

  37. John James R says:

    “A woman is going to grow tired of just about any man she’s with over time.:

    Not the guy who has her beat by about 4 points in sexual market value. A female 5 will stay with her male 9 quite decently. I’m at a total loss for what a man gets out of that relationship but who cares about what men want? Most men certainly don’t. Also, a female 5, male 9 relationship is what most American couples are, on international terms. Lucky for the women we are on a remote island where no one has any awareness of this at all, particularly the men.

  38. Minesweeper says:

    @Opus says:” I like each day to check the obits – if only to satisfy myself that I am not there.”

    hilarious as usual. Although as a fellow brit (still in the uk for now), I do tend to think you only comment while very drunk 😀

    Keep it up !

  39. info says:

    @The Real Peterman
    Call this “sickness” Evil. Thats what it is. The corruption that is evident in the world. And what our Lord died to save us from.

    These people are wicked. Filled with malice. Hating God. Provoking him to anger.

  40. thedeti says:

    @Red Pill Latecomer:

    I suppose it’s worse than that. The wife of a Beta is looking for excuses to resent him. She wants to find fault. She needs to morally justify her resentment of him.

    Whenever a Beta washes dishes, she resents him all the more, because he’s taking away her excuse to hate him and eventually leave him.

    He washes dishes, and it angers her. She doesn’t know why, but it does.

    I don’t know that she’s looking for excuses to resent him or wants to find fault or moral justifications.

    I think a woman in this situation feels two conflicting sets of negative emotions that just grind away at her. The first is negativity directed at herself. She feels bad that she’s not attracted to a guy who treats her well:

    “Look at this guy. I am just not into this guy at all. And yet the worse I treat him, the harder he works to please me. He is so nice to me. And he’s good to me. He works hard. He earns a good living. He’s a decent dad. Other people kind of like him, even if he is a little introverted and not very assertive. I feel really badly that I’m not attracted to him and don’t want to have sex with him. I SHOULD want to be attracted to him. I SHOULD want to have sex with him. I SHOULD want sex with him. I do have sex with him even though I don’t really want to. I should want to. But I don’t.”

    The second is frustration that he’s not standing up for himself and taking charge with her:

    “Jeez. How much punishment can this guy take? When is he going to stand up for himself? When is he going to tell me what he wants and needs? When is he going to stop being afraid and take care of things around here? Why does he put up with all this crappy treatment that not only I give him, but the world gives him? Why does he put up with me being a bitch? Why is he so afraid of me? No other guy I’ve ever been with put up with this. I keep testing and testing and pushing and pushing, and he just keeps retreating and pulling his boundaries back and taking on more and more. When is he going to tell me ‘enough is enough’?

    “For the love of Mike, hubby! Stand up for yourself and put some rules and boundaries down! Can’t you see I need them? Because when you don’t put rules and boundaries down and just take all this crap, it tells me that you don’t care about me! When you put up with this, it tells me you’re weak and that I have to make the rules and set the boundaries and take care of everything! It also tells me that, um, maybe you’re not the man I thought you were! Can YOU please step up and take care of this so I don’t have to??”

    I don’t think she’s looking for reasons to hate her beta hubby. She’s feeling inconsistent feelings and addressing them the only way she knows how.

  41. info says:

    When the Duluth model passed and VAWA passed and wrought the results of destruction of countless innocent men. The nation did nothing or scarcely opposed this assault on the family unit. On Fathers who deserved nothing of the sheer malice unleashed upon him along with poisoning the minds of children against him.

    Is it any wonder america is called the great satan. Will God not avenge himself on a nation such a this? Would he not be appalled at the injustice going on?

    The example of Ancient Israel serves as warning for countries in the west that did nothing about this evil.

  42. Ben Lurkin Ehwile says:

    Assume for the sake of argument that Christianity isn’t true. That if there is a God he doesn’t care whether or not you are a Christian and is either unable or unwilling to intervene in physical reality in response to prayers, injustice, etc.

    If your goal was for your children to have happy fulfilling lives, to get married, have a good lifelong relationship with their spouse, have many children and raise them to grow into similarly successful and fulfilled adults would you raise them to be Christian?

    Would you count on Christianity or the Bible even if it weren’t divine to help your descendents navigate life, the SMP, dating and marriage, etc?

    Basically is Christianity helpful even if it isn’t true?

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    When the Duluth model passed

    It was deemed to be “scientific”. Because “studies have shown” became the root password to just about anything way back in the 1950’s. Nobody sat down and studied on the Duluth Wheel in a legislative body and said, “Yeah, that’s real. That’s just how people work”.

    Nah, they were persuaded by activists, often women or beta men, who played all sorts of emotional cards against them with “protect women” being one of the biggies. Similar to today, when White Knights are ready to dismiss any evidence that women can be just as violent as men, with some sort of “tut tut, Women are Wondeful! Do you hate your mother or something”? When the Duluth model passed

    The Duluth Model became embedded in US law via bureaucratic “rule making” in combination with what might be called “definition creep”. “Abuse” became anything some bureaucrat declared it to be.It was never “passed” in the classic “civics 101” sense by anyone.

  44. Frank K says:

    It is clear to me that America hates women for surely no other country would encourage women to do something so pointless and dangerous and to what purpose I know not what.

    In other words, feminism harms women. But we already knew that.

  45. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    locustsplease: The idea that the physically weak are pure of heart is a lie and as unnatural as transgenderism.

    Paul was meek, yet not weak. He supported himself with physical labor (a tent maker). He was stoned, scourged, imprisoned, shipwrecked, yet he persevered. And he never watered down the Gospel to please his listeners.

  46. Frank K says:

    I just don’t want to have to live that way. Why would I want to share my house with someone I can never really trust? Someone I have to constantly game to keep them from going feral.

    Yup. Game is for the PUA crowd, those whose only intention is to pump and dump.

  47. Anonymous Reader says:

    Game is for the PUA crowd, those whose only intention is to pump and dump.

    This, again? It’s still false.

  48. Novaseeker says:

    imilar to today, when White Knights are ready to dismiss any evidence that women can be just as violent as men, with some sort of “tut tut, Women are Wondeful! Do you hate your mother or something”? When the Duluth model passed

    Yes. It was the usual “It’s so sad when I see a man who is so emotionally broken. Who hurt you? Get some help!” type of approach that men love to weaponize against each other, and not just in this context.

  49. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti
    The second is frustration that he’s not standing up for himself and taking charge with her:

    Yes, exactly. Women are not men with boobs, they do not emote as men do and generally don’t think as men do. There’s a mountain of “relationship advice” books out there that push the same failed approach: more choreplay, more footrubs, more catering to her whims. It’s all wrong.

    The first thing a man should do in that situ is stop fearing the woman.
    Cue the blackpilled…

  50. vfm7916 says:

    “The first thing a man should do … is stop fearing the woman.”

    This is the beginning.

    I modified it slightly AR, because this is always the first step for a man. It’s a step MGTOWs have either not taken, or have hastily walked backwards.

    Churchians have to overcome the same problem as they’ve replaced fear of God with fear of woman.

  51. Anonymous Reader says:

    It’s a paraphrase of something from a comment stream a couple of years back. Without any names, there was a married man giving advice on the phone to another man in a bad domestic situation, calmly explaining the hows and the whys of managing a wife. Detailing why the standard advice wasn’t working, and what would work; but first the other man had to get his mindset right. Nothing would really work until then.

    tl;dr
    “I can’t help you as long as you are afraid of her”.

  52. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Nick M

    Typical tabula-rasa stupidity. It just means more girls will change majors / flunk out of Aussie unis.

    More than a whiff of magical thinking there, too.

  53. Anonymous Reader says:

    Nick M
    Who bothers to read “National Review” anymore, except in case of insomnia?

  54. Nick M says:

    Anonymous Reader
    @Nick M

    Typical tabula-rasa stupidity. It just means more girls will change majors / flunk out of Aussie unis.

    More than a whiff of magical thinking there, too.

    Well, Anonymous Reader. It turns out that feminism is the belief that men hold all the power to women’s problems, and the solutions to women’s same problems.

    When those girls quit because it doesn’t interest them to work that hard, but instead be a nanny or a wedding planner, who will the blame fall on again?

    Because men were sexists, the atmosphere at work was sexist, and not enough money and accommodations were made to keep women in STEM.

    Next , for women to be qualified in STEMs:
    just show up, there will be free cocktails, and you’ll receive a STEM degree.

    If with that, there aren’t more women in STEM, it’s men’s fault.

    * That “logic” based on emotions can also be applied to why there aren’t more female e sport gamers.

  55. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Nick M
    Please avoid confusion. Learn how to quote other people. Use italics or blockquote or even quotation marks.

    It turns out that feminism is the belief that men hold all the power to women’s problems, and the solutions to women’s same problems.

    Yes. That’s a paraphrase of Dalrock’s law.
    So? Now what?

  56. Eric M says:

    “Game is for the PUA crowd, those whose only intention is to pump and dump.”
    “This, again? It’s still false.”
    Nope, it’s correct. There is such a distinction between game for the PUA crowd and the group of men looking for healthy long-term relationships that the later is even given a different name altogether – Married game. Opening up your average book on regular game will include chapters on concepts like ‘plates’: how to have sex outside of marriage with multiple women – clearly a great foundation for a strong, healthy marriage. Not only does it taint the man’s mindset, but he literally ruins the ability to pair-bond for several other women, effectively ruining them as potential wives for other men out there. If 1 man engages in this with 10 women, he effectively has ruined marriage for 21 people, to promote this kind of lifestyle is hedonistic at best and an immense cruelty at worst.

    The problem is you are being overruled and led by your emotions. You were formerly clueless and confused about why interactions with women weren’t making sense, and then you read about game and you were so grateful to have real answers that you deified and worshiped it. You even capitalize the word game every time you type it out of reverence, there is no hiding how much you elevate it. You wouldn’t be the first man to put game on a pedestal almost as high as God, or the first man to assert that Rollo is equally Christ-like as Jesus himself because of the message of truth he brought to humanity. But I challenge you not to worship and make an idol of these viewpoints that you value so highly, they have utility but you have raised them far beyond what is healthy.

  57. Kirk Parker says:

    CSI,

    I suppose people, men and women, were so busy they didn’t have much spare time.

    Not really; at the very least that is certainly not universally true.

    My observation, having lived among subsistence farmers in the fourth world, is that when you’re busy you’re really really busy, but there are plenty of slack times when it’s not field preparation time or planting time or harvest time… Where there isn’t a lot to do and you just sit around.

  58. BillyS says:

    Yup. Game is for the PUA crowd, those whose only intention is to pump and dump.

    I think you miss the point in your anti-game focus. The point was that all women must be “gamed” to some extent or they would grow unhappy. You clearly don’t have to pickup your wife each week, but failing to do the “right” things can kill a marriage. (It may still die, but at least don’t contribute to it!)

  59. Anonymous Reader says:

    Eric M
    There is such a distinction between game for the PUA crowd and the group of men looking for healthy long-term relationships that the later is even given a different name altogether – Married game.

    Lol.
    Married Game is a subset of Game. One example: “Agree & Amplify” works for PUA’s running night game just as well as it works for a married man swatting a fitness test. Because the female hindbrain is what it is, period.

    Some men can’t quite take the glare of seeing clearly, at least initially. That doesn’t make The Glasses bad, it just means that their eyes hurt because they have not used them.

    The problem is you are being overruled and led by your emotions.

    Irony.

  60. BillyS says:

    Eric,

    I never had more than one “plate” going, but being more cognizant of game might have made my long term “Christian” marriage last instead of die. (Perhaps not even so for other reasons.)

    Note that the term “game” is still in your use of “marriage game” so you are not disagreeing with game as much as you are with the PUA lifestyle, which many of us do while still acknowledging we live in a society where men must constantly watch for any women in their life going feral.

  61. Anonymous Reader says:

    Eric M
    I challenge you not to worship and make an idol of these viewpoints that you value so highly, they have utility but you have raised them far beyond what is healthy.

    Another mindreader? Cool. That claim can be tested. Let’s do so.

    What’s my favorite color? What am I thinking right now at 1:26 EDT?

  62. @Sharrukin2

    I am what she settled for when she couldn’t get what she really wanted and the best part is that she will resent me for not being the asshole who tossed her away.

    I have no inclination to agree to such a deal.

    I understand completely.
    I actually think matters are far worse right now than they were even just 5 years ago (before The Election, etc.) in terms of dating/courting and marriage.

    I say this because what I observe now are even more women more readily showing anger and frustrated at the current circumstances. I think this is because they have to try and operate their cute little protocols and run their game while a full bore gender war is going on at concert-level loud volume – in the media, at school, in the workplace.

    Before, all of this “men are just awful!” rhetoric was more easily concealed and muted.
    Now its all out in the open, and a woman who is putting herself out there doesn’t really know how to turn the volume down so she can connect with you one-on-one, sell you the NAWALT story, concentrate on the value proposition and her sales pitch. In fact, she resents having to do any of this at all as it is beneath her.

    There are a lot of Christian men who are in abject denial to the extent of this dysfunctional field of play. So they are going to be very critical of, and high-and-mighty about, your perspective.

    I don’t speak for anyone else, but personally I have yet to hear a compelling and persuasive argument against no marriage/no cohabitation and just spinning plates (effectively Mgtow).

    The common rhetoric seems to be well, you are a misogynist or a faggot or an incel and on top of all of that you are sinning against God, or all of the above, because you are not “stepping up”, “manning up” and sacrificing yourself like the rest of the good little Jesus-minded draft animals from the manger. You’re not doing what you’re supposed to!! How dare you pursue your own enlightened self-interest and get laid with any semblance of genuine desire and variety!!!

  63. John James R says:

    “It just means more girls will change majors / flunk out of Aussie unis.”

    I don’t see women flunking out in any kind of significant numbers for very long at all. It will be corrected for sure. When the feminists push to invade STEM and plant their flag, chemistry will somehow become an SJW/Emotional science. Somehow. Girls will get extra credit for writing thought pieces on ‘how it feels to not understand electrons.’ But they’re not going to flunk out an entire generation (or two or three) of their Mary Sues.

  64. Anonymous Reader says:

    @BillyS:

    In my limited experience, men who get all worked up over game are actually upset at the reality of women. They have an “ought” vs. “is” cognitive dissonance problem. Women “ought” to be a certain way, not those earthy creatures visible through The Glasses. “Mah LayDee Faire” ought to be sugar / spice / nice angel who bestows her ethereal love upon the Most Perfect Knight in the form of her scarf; not some earthy creature with a temper who will use a man’s natural desires as a tool to control him and a weapon to hurt him. Just for one example.

    The Cult of Courtly Love has done an astounding amount of damage to Western men, myself included. Dalrock’s examination of that Cult via the hot needle of logical enquiry is a great service.

  65. Anonymous Reader says:

    constrainedlocus
    I don’t speak for anyone else, but personally I have yet to hear a compelling and persuasive argument against no marriage/no cohabitation and just spinning plates (effectively Mgtow).

    You can’t hear what you do not want to hear.

  66. Anonymous Reader says:

    John James R
    I don’t see women flunking out in any kind of significant numbers for very long at all.

    Your fears and reality are not the same thing.

    It will be corrected for sure. When the feminists push to invade STEM

    Feminists have been pushing to invade STEM since the 1970’s. The abstract thinking, spatial visualization, general intelligence, etc. has not gone away. Therefore the Aussie girls getting extra points on testing will just find out in the first few years of engineering / math / IT that they cannot do the work. Because the god of Tabula Rasa must be served some sacrifices, and many of those girls will do just fine.

    It’s stuff like this “bonus points” that makes Uni’s into a scam. Eventually nobody wants to go there, because the degree becomes worthless.

    A functional uni can have one or two of these compenents. Never all three. Nunca.
    1. Open admissions (no real testing)
    2. High retention rate (few flunkouts)
    3. Quality graduates (competent engineers /mathmeticians / software types, etc.)

    This is reality. Ignoring reality is how we get bridges that fall down and uni’s that close.

    In the mean time, put those black pills away. Fear / despair is never a help to anyone.

  67. vfm7916 says:

    @AR

    “Your fears and reality are not the same thing. ”

    You are hitting home runs today.

  68. Swanny River says:

    Deti at 9:47 am. Great! But….for Christian women, if they think the things you think they are, then they should have the ability to ask themselves, “why am I seeing how much he will take instead of being his helper?”

  69. Swanny River says:

    Deti,

    Your insightful look into a woman’s mind has no questions. At some point a Christian women needs to say that her list of complaints is a symptom of her discontentment is her responsibility to address and a reliance on her husband always gaming her to keep her happy is a an immaturity she needs to address, at least, and possibly a sin to repent of. I am with the above commenter, it seems like too much work.

  70. AnonS says:

    “All this is a symptom of the real cause: The fact that these wives had to settle for their husbands; that these wives are not sexually attracted to these men they settled for; and these women feel trapped in marriages to men they don’t want to have sex with.”

    A lot of that attraction is situational based on how the woman views her options and what she deserves. The brain rewires itself to be happy if options are restricted by force.

  71. Emperor Constantine says:

    @Joe said:

    [Joe explains how his wife acts in a classically submissive way.]

    Then Joe adds:

    “”And she told me a few months ago while we were attending a friends wedding “you know your’e still the best looking man I’ve ever known”. 🙂 Not bad after 30+ years.”

    She’s submitting to you, serving you, because she’s attracted to you and you are naturally alpha enough that you have not fallen into a blue pill pattern of behavior despite all the cultural indoctrination.

  72. Novaseeker says:

    At some point a Christian women needs to say that her list of complaints is a symptom of her discontentment is her responsibility to address and a reliance on her husband always gaming her to keep her happy is a an immaturity she needs to address, at least, and possibly a sin to repent of. I am with the above commenter, it seems like too much work.

    That may very well be true. But there is a difference between being right, on the one hand, and having a marriage that doesn’t end in divorce, on the other.

  73. thedeti says:

    @ Swanny River:

    But….for Christian women, if they think the things you think they are, then they should have the ability to ask themselves, “why am I seeing how much he will take instead of being his helper?”

    You must always remember Deti’s Second Law:

    There are no differences in basic female sexual nature between Christian women and their secular sisters.

    A Christian woman is a secular woman with a contemporary Churchian worldview overlaid on top. That morality in no way whatsoever changes her basic internal sexual nature. Christian women are still hypergamous and ruled by their emotions. And what’s worse, most other Christians are telling the average Christian woman that her hypergamy and emotional thinking are moral. Christians work overtime convincing women that their internal sexual nature is also their “Holy Spirit” and their internal moral compass. Hence their being ruled by their (non) burning bushes.

    In many ways, Christian women are worse than nonChristian women, because the Church today gives them moral cover and tells them the way they are acting is moral and good and right and Holy Spirit-approved.

  74. Frank K says:

    The point was that all women must be “gamed” to some extent or they would grow unhappy.

    Yet Harley McBadboy never has to resort to “game”. He is just himself and women love him and will do anything he asks. Either she’s into you or she’s not, and if you’re not a true alpha, few will be interested in you. If she’s not into you, you’ll have to do the monkey dance for decades to keep her in check. No thanks.

  75. thedeti says:

    @Swanny:

    Your insightful look into a woman’s mind has no questions.

    I don’t know about that. It’s just what it looks like to me.

    At some point a Christian women needs to say that her list of complaints is a symptom of her discontentment is her responsibility to address and a reliance on her husband always gaming her to keep her happy is a an immaturity she needs to address, at least, and possibly a sin to repent of. I am with the above commenter, it seems like too much work.

    Keep in mind what I said up there. Yeah, it’s her responsibility to address. But the Church isn’t telling her it’s her responsibility, nor that her need to “be happy” is “immaturity”. To our modern Church, a wife’s unhappiness is always her husband’s fault. If their marriage is in trouble, it is because of something the husband did or failed to do. If she complains or isn’t content, that’s her husband’s moral failing.

    To our modern day Church with its false theology designed by weak willed pastors terrified of angering the women in their congregations and ignorant of what the Word actually says, a woman’s feelings and view toward her husband are moral indicators. Her disapproval and discontentment mean her husband is not only failing as a husband, but is acting immorally toward her and the marriage. Her feelings are the moral barometer by which her husband is measured. And if she is unhaaaaappy, in stride Focus on the Family and Family Life Today and Steve Arterburn, James Dobson and Dennis Rainey to declare the husband is immoral and wrong and bad and evil; while the wife is always moral and right and good and pure.

  76. Anonymous Reader says:

    Swanny River
    for Christian women, if they think the things you think they are, then they should have the ability to ask themselves, “why am I seeing how much he will take instead of being his helper?”

    I have highlighted your problem in bold.
    Question: how does one teach a toddler who says “mine! MINE!” that not everything is actually hers?

    US women are not taught to be helpers, for various reasons, they are taught to be “strong, independent wahmen” instead. Add to this the normal feature of female solipsism and problems result. There are various solutions for this at the individual level, but generally not overnight fixes.

    In the mean time, deal with women as they are, not as they should be. All that does is cause frustration.

  77. Gunner Q says:

    locustsplease @ August 28, 2019 at 9:17 pm:
    “Somewhat off topic half a decade with my blinders off have made me see god made the strong to rule. Not women and not weak slugs like brad wilcox peroid. Men who ruled risked things. How did people who if they ran a shovel for a day would break their hands and spirit end up totally ruling a society made of steel and concrete?”

    Democracy selects for leaders skilled at social manipulation instead of achievement.

  78. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    Yet Harley McBadboy never has to resort to “game”

    That’s because he’s a “natural” in some sense; it’s become an unconscious competence.

  79. Opus says:

    Times change. I was reading in Janes FitzJames Stephen who was writing in the 1860s. This is what he said (but in my own words): Imagine a group of men banded together for the purpose of the seduction of women. They wrote novels encouraging slutty behaviour and pamphlets as to the excellence of loose living [Stephen means contraception – and is getting at J.S.Mill}. This [Stephen was a member of the Judiciary] would be criminal libel and a conspiracy. No society could tolerate such a thing.

    There are a number of ripostes to that but in terms of being blue pilled he makes Brad Wilcox look positively Red Pilled. Clearly women (good gels that is) could both be led astray but only after being indoctrinated by reading novels. They clearly had no will-power or even any sexual desires of their own other than as duty sex. Were he here now, I would ask Stephen: why would the men need to bandy together? What is wrong with Day Game? – although a wing man might be useful. Collapse of stout party.

    Victorian London was so I understand riven with Prostitution. Is there a connection?

    In passing, Minesweeper suggests that I am often drunk when I comment here such as my above comment from earlier in the day (night in the United States). I am sorry to disappoint (having the reputation as a drinker can be useful) but I was sober and hardly ever drink. I am amused by what Minesweeper wrote as in the past – out on the town – women have often assumed also that I was drunk – even when I was merely drinking as I sometimes prefer to do nothing more intoxicating than Coca Cola. Oh to see ourselves as others see us. He is intelligent, handsome and always drunk they say. Actually I just wasn’t interested.

  80. Liz says:

    I don’t know about that. It’s just what it looks like to me.
    I thought it was very accurate.

  81. Frank K says:

    That’s because he’s a “natural” in some sense; it’s become an unconscious competence.

    Exactly, he is just being himself, he isn’t acting, which is what game is. If what it takes to keep your feral woman in check is pretending to be someone you are not, you are doomed to failure. Now some people believe that you (meaning anyone) can retrain yourself to be a natural. I have serious doubts about that.

  82. @Anonymous Reader

    You can’t hear what you do not want to hear.

    Oh, did you have something both compelling and persuasive to say on that subject?
    I must have missed it. There are a lot of ARs here in the comment section.

  83. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    Exactly, he is just being himself, he isn’t acting, which is what game is.

    Sure, and Canadian boys born in the first three months of the year are natural hockey players who are just “being themselves” on the ice. No, game is not necessarily acting any more than any other form of leadership.

    If what it takes to keep your feral woman in check is pretending to be someone you are not,

    Strawman.

    Now some people believe that you (meaning anyone) can retrain yourself to be a natural. I have serious doubts about that.

    Your doubts don’t matter. They are based on false assumptions, because you don’t know what you don’t know. Try learning something new, start with neuroplasticity and the term “reference experience”.

  84. Joe says:

    Emperor Constantine says:
    August 29, 2019 at 1:43 pm
    @Joe said:

    [Joe explains how his wife acts in a classically submissive way.]

    Then Joe adds:

    “”And she told me a few months ago while we were attending a friends wedding “you know your’e still the best looking man I’ve ever known”. 🙂 Not bad after 30+ years.”

    She’s submitting to you, serving you, because she’s attracted to you and you are naturally alpha enough that you have not fallen into a blue pill pattern of behavior despite all the cultural indoctrination.
    *************************************************

    It does help.

    But primarily, she’s submitting to me because she has in intense desire to do what that Bible says. She knows that she is supposed to submit and be my helper because that’s what the Bible (God) says. She takes great joy in doing it because she knows that pleases God.

    It is not because I am great. It is because HE is great.

    She truly strives to be the women in Proverbs 31:10-31. And for the 33 years I’ve known her, she’s done a pretty good job.

    A good wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels.
    The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain.
    She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life….

  85. Anonymous Reader says:

    constrainedlocus
    Oh, did you have something both compelling and persuasive to say on that subject?

    Calm down. Here is what you wrote:
    I don’t speak for anyone else, but personally I have yet to hear a compelling and persuasive argument against no marriage/no cohabitation and just spinning plates (effectively Mgtow).

    A churchgoing man who is serious about his religion is limited in some ways. He’s prohibited from participating in promiscuity. “Spinning plates” by definition is promiscuity. Either remain celibate or marry, those are the choices for churchgoing men. it is in the Bible. if you do not find the Bible compelling and/or persuasive, you should take that issue up with your pastor / priest.

    I repeat: You can’t hear what you do not want to hear.

    PS: It is quite possible for a man to go his own way and remain celibate. Therefore to equate “spinning plates” with MGTOW is simply false.

  86. Anonymous Reader says:

    constrainedlocus
    Oh, did you have something both compelling and persuasive to say on that subject?

    By the way, the passive-aggressive style of argumentation is quite easy to fall into, but it’s not actually debating. It is just trying to pick a fight, like a mid-school mean girl in the lunch room. Men should avoid passive-aggressive girlish bitchiness, if they want to be treated like men.

    Ask me how I know this.

  87. BillyS says:

    I would unfortunately agree with that AR. Many Christian men still haven’t opened their eyes to the truth. This is bad for everyone, including the woman they claim to want to protect.

    The current system harms everyone, but so many Christian men are almost intentionally ignorant. They will claim you hate women if you challenge them to examine it and see how bad it really is.

    ====

    Women in Engineering/Tech/Whatever you want to call it – This has been a big thing since at least when I was in college in the early 1980s. The fact they still have to push it so hard tells me most women don’t want that and they are pushing the string uphill, an impossible task that only benefits very few women, though those women benefit greatly.

  88. @Anonymous Reader
    Perfectly calm dude.
    I read what you have written and I do “hear” what you are saying.
    The marry suggestion is not persuasive nor compelling anymore – especially now given the field of play and the age and treatwear on the few prospects that are genuinely interested in marriage for family formation.
    I will be the first that you are probably right that one easily starts to lose the sale at that point, and people turn off, or stop “hearing” what they don’t find compelling (don’t want to hear).
    Just repeating the same value prop points “I repeat”, doesn’t help matters either.
    There has to be some substance. Some reason or call to action. And this has been destroyed.
    I don’t have to consult pastors or priests either. Most of them know it themselves, as they stare out at empty pews or seats occupied by female divorcees in their congregations.
    They lost the sale.
    But I do think you are right to correct me that “spinning plates” should not be “effectively” equated to Mgtow. At all. I recognize that indeed many Mgtow are celibate. And many Mgtow also do decide to spin plates.

  89. Anonymous Reader
    That’s a good one.
    But I don’t pick fights. I asked you a straight-forward question.
    I don’t know everything. And I remain open to learn something new.

  90. BillyS says:

    Swanny,

    Your error is that you are expecting women to think. Even Christian women rarely do that and are convinced they already know the truth, whatever the area.

    Your insightful look into a woman’s mind has no questions. At some point a Christian women needs to say that her list of complaints is a symptom of her discontentment is her responsibility to address and a reliance on her husband always gaming her to keep her happy is a an immaturity she needs to address, at least, and possibly a sin to repent of. I am with the above commenter, it seems like too much work.

    Yeah it is, which is why so many are going the MGTOW route and many tradcons are fighting against that.

    Though you confuse “should” and “is” in your statement. Are you just going to let things blow up if you are married or you really want children? You are solely relying then on the other party being on the right path, doing little to nothing to help things. That is not very smart.

    Deti,

    In many ways, Christian women are worse than nonChristian women, because the Church today gives them moral cover and tells them the way they are acting is moral and good and right and Holy Spirit-approved.

    Exactly! A pastor’s wife told my wife to “stay away” from me after my wife filed for divorce because in the mind of this pastor’s wife I must be a horrible guy (and all the things my wife said must be true) because my wife was so unhappy. I could never convince the pastor’s wife nor the pastor that my wife was unhappy because of her own unrealistic expectations and the church completely let her down by never trying to help her work through those.

    They gave her a Biblically-approved (or so it seemed at least) reason to go through with the divorce. The pastor talked to her twice, but never really confronted things, especially with his wife giving the cover and never confronting my wife for her clear sin.

    I am shocked! /sarc

    Keep in mind what I said up there. Yeah, it’s her responsibility to address. But the Church isn’t telling her it’s her responsibility, nor that her need to “be happy” is “immaturity”. To our modern Church, a wife’s unhappiness is always her husband’s fault. If their marriage is in trouble, it is because of something the husband did or failed to do. If she complains or isn’t content, that’s her husband’s moral failing.

    Exactly! No one even challenges women to do better. I guess church leaders spend all their energy on telling men what scum they are and that they need to do better. The message to women is “You Go Girl!”

    ====

    It is the carbonation throwing you off Opus!

    Frank,

    Exactly, he is just being himself, he isn’t acting, which is what game is. If what it takes to keep your feral woman in check is pretending to be someone you are not, you are doomed to failure. Now some people believe that you (meaning anyone) can retrain yourself to be a natural. I have serious doubts about that.

    So no one should ever seek to improve their behavior in any area until they are perfect in it? They have to avoid any chance they might be faking it, right?

    I guess I should just go back to pigging out and playing games all day since I am faking it if I try to push myself otherwise! Great advice! /sarc

    You are full of it Joe. Perhaps your life really is what you post here, but I suspect it is more like another past participant who had three hot ninja wives that could beat any of us up – a fantasy. Some men do well of course, but life is rarely simple and neat like you always claim.

    You have just avoided the pitfalls if so. You should apply to be one of Job’s counselors!

  91. BillyS says:

    Constrained,

    And many Mgtow also do decide to spin plates.

    And many do not. So what? Useless point. No one here has been arguing for “spinning plates”.

  92. Lost Patrol says:

    Harley McBadboy

    This guy keeps turning up but I wonder if we don’t need a new Bad Boy archetype.

    I’ve been riding motorcycles since I was 14 and most of that time definitely wanted to be Harley McBadboy – which one did see around “in the old days” and he often had good looking chicks on the back of his machine – but I never made it.

    But for the last 10 to 15 years or so, nearly everyone I’ve seen on a Harley has been overweight, unimpressive, and aged 50s or 60s. If there was a woman with him her primary purpose might have been to prove beyond all doubt that the man was not nor ever had been an alpha male.

  93. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    Harley McBadboy
    This guy keeps turning up but I wonder if we don’t need a new Bad Boy archetype.

    I believe you are correct. A couple of suggestions. Fire when ready:

    BadBoy McMountainbike in some locales, Chuck McPickupTruck in others. Because some segments of Generation Z are cult like in their devotion to the multispeed, alloy or carbon frame, bicycle. Others are totally sold on pickemup trucks (not a new thing).

    But for the last 10 to 15 years or so, nearly everyone I’ve seen on a Harley has been overweight, unimpressive, and aged 50s or 60s.

    Q: “What do you call a retired Baby Boomer who finally bought his first Harley?”
    A: “Organ donor”.

    I keep seeing high performance motor-tricycles in some areas. Does Harley make those?

    Bonus: Behold the future of Harley:
    https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/harley-davidson-is-expanding-its-ev-team/

  94. Frank K says:

    So no one should ever seek to improve their behavior in any area until they are perfect in it?

    I was talking about retraining yourself to be a full time Alpha McBadboy.

  95. Frank K says:

    Women in Engineering/Tech/Whatever you want to call it – This has been a big thing since at least when I was in college in the early 1980s. The fact they still have to push it so hard tells me most women don’t want that

    Of course they don’t want that. They want to paid a STEM salary for a non-STEM job.

  96. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    full time Alpha McBadboy.

    Even now with massive social media, Alpha is still situational. So there’s no need for that. See the old joke about the two hikers and the bear.

    Binary thinking is a handicap. One could argue it is not even really thinking at all, just emoting.

  97. Abelard Lindsey says:

    This is just one of the many causes of the long-term decline in fertility. There will be no turn around within a conventional life span of anyone reading this.

  98. TheTraveler says:

    Women in STEM can’t be hidden like women in bureaucracy. Things will start to crash and burn, literally. Women are pushing far more qualified men out of everything from engineering to medicine. Sooner or later, there will be massive problems. Something will happen, and will stick in the public consciousness. Then there will be a mass epiphany that this is really STUPID. And THAT will spell the end if feminism far more than any argument. It’s a visceral thing, but hard to get across while we are still living on the principal earned by decades of clever Western men. But yhe principle is running out fast.

    I deal with STEM women all the time, being in a technical field. Most clearly don’t like what they’re doing, but have talked themselves into pretending they do because of “You go grrrl!” chearleading. “Yay, STEM-girl, you so AWESOME!” Those few who are good at the technical stuff seem reluctant to play the “I am STEM WOMAN!” card. They do so, nevertheless, to get ahead–they’re still women, who by and large do not understand the concept of honor.

    But in the technical world, the judge is ultimately Mother Nature. You can’t defy the laws of nature and succeed. STEM women in charge? The wheels will start to come off–literally. Everything from major bridges they design with great fanfare (a WOMAN did this!) to the ones installing circuits and updating computers (AWESOME!) will start failing, spectacularly.

    Of course they’ll try to blame men, but…alas, there won’t be any around, totally intentionally, the more to give the wimminz center stage and GIRL-GLORY! The only guys available for the chopping block will be so junior that it would be credibility suicide to blame them. They’ll try, probably.

    Nonetheless, you cannot defy nature forever. That is something women don’t get.

  99. thedeti says:

    I guess I have no problem with retiring Harley McBadboy.

    I still like F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer – the quintessential broke garage band dude, works crappy jobs, but is going to be a rock star someday. Has six roommates and lives in a crappy apartment, sleeps on a frameless mattress. Has girlfriends, cheats on them all the time with chicks who attend his band’s gigs. Think Matt Dillon in the 1992 movie Singles. Think Sean Penn in Fast Times at Ridgemont High.

    Alpha McGorgeous: The smooth player. Think Professor Mentu from the old University of Man days. George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Channing Tatum, Tom Hardy.

    Frank Fratboy: The NCAA D1 athlete, the Animal House president (Premed, prelaw, what’s the difference?), the good old boys you partied with at the socials.

    All of these men have more women than they know what to do with. They have girlfriends, harems, sidepieces, and booty calls. Women absolutely LOVE these men, despite anything they say here or anywhere else. Literally EVERY woman alive has at one time dated or had sex with one of these men. Including AR’s new prototypes, Alpha McBadboy, Chuck McPickupTruck, and Badboy McMountainbike.

  100. @BillyS

    And many Mgtow also do decide to spin plates.

    And many do not. So what? Useless point. No one here has been arguing for “spinning plates”.

    Except I wasn’t making a point or arguing for “spinning plates”. I was making a clarification and a correction of previous statement I made.
    That a commenter might observe more men “spinning plates” in current times should not be interpreted as the commenter supporting or endorsing it.

  101. Gunner Q says:

    Anonymous Reader @ 5:09 pm:
    “BadBoy McMountainbike in some locales”

    Hard negative on this one. Scrawny men in spandex? A daredevil mountain biker could be sexy but that’s more about risk-taking than showing off one’s bicycle-bod. Also, bicycles are rarely two-seaters so she can’t “share the adventure”.

    Harley McBadBoy only needs retiring because he’s not a drug-dealing outlaw anymore. As LP mentioned, too many Boomers and not enough Mongols. I went to the Hollister Motorcycle Rally a few years ago, a nationally known event, and it was bring-the-kids tame.

    Some VERY nice choppers, however. With curves like those, modern bikers don’t need women.

  102. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Article says that men are refusing to interact with women at work, or even hire them, due to #MeToo concerns: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/29/men-women-workplace-study-harassment-harvard-metoo

    A new study, due to be published in the journal Organizational Dynamics, has found that, following the #MeToo movement, men are significantly more reluctant to interact with their female colleagues. A few highlights from the research include:

    • 27% of men avoid one-on-one meetings with female co-workers. Yep, that’s right, almost a third of men are terrified to be alone in a room with a woman.

    • 21% of men said they would be reluctant to hire women for a job that would require close interaction (such as business travel).

    • 19% of men would be reluctant to hire an attractive woman.

    But the writer concludes that men aren’t afraid of being falsely accused — because that doesn’t happen. Instead, she believes that men are pretending to be afraid, while in reality they’re looking for an excuse to punish women for being uppity

    a lot of men aren’t so much afraid of being accused of anything as they are they are angry that #MeToo ever happened.

    They’re angry that they’ve been made to think about their behavior, made to interrogate power dynamics they always took for granted, and they are punishing women for it by refusing to interact with them. …

    the Harvard Business Review article previewing the study’s 2019 results is headlined The #MeToo Backlash. You see that phrase a lot and that framing subtly implies that #MeToo went too far, that a backlash is only natural.

    It’s yet another form of victim-blaming; another way to quietly put women back in their place.

  103. Swanny River says:

    Deti,
    Sorry for my unclear writing. It confused me after I posted it. By saying there are no questions, I intended to agree and amplify that your hypothetical inner talk of a woman didn’t include her asking herself any reflective questions.
    It does seem to me though, that a Christian woman with such self talk would hear a voice saying, “Stop it!”
    Billy, I know I was highlighting should, and yes, my marriage suffers in practice because of it. It’s one reason I admire Deti, it’s loving to stand up to your wife, but for me, my wife is a non believer and so deeply identifies with her work, that she would choose it over my wish that she puts our family first. She’ll leave eventually because I don’t fight for her like Deti demonstrated for his wife.

  104. elspeth says:

    Literally, EVERY woman alive has at one time dated or had sex with one of these men.

    I laughed out loud, Deti. Your hyperbole is funny.

  105. John James R says:

    Amazing hamsterwork there by the Guardian. In her mind, men’s fear of the female capacity to hate them (and ruin their career with a lie) is so terribly inaccurate that she hates them for their audacity in thinking that women can be hateful. Okay, let me try to put it into her words;

    “I hate men for thinking that we are capable of hating men. We clearly aren’t capable of hating men and the gall of them to think that we can hate them makes me hate them.”

    More seriously; here it comes. Women are writing and enforcing a lot of the law now. The irrationality is coming in full force. Men can no longer show any personal agency at all. Any act that evinces any kind of self-interest, or even self-protection, will be seen more evil patriarchy and will soon become illegal. This is not going to end well.

  106. Anonymous Reader says:

    GunnerQ
    Hard negative on this one. Scrawny men in spandex? A daredevil mountain biker could be sexy but that’s more about risk-taking than showing off one’s bicycle-bod.

    Eh, I’ll push back a little. In some bike-friendly towns many of the craft beards are also mountain bikers who lift. They are in shape, unlike a lot of beer-belly bikers I’ve seen over the years.

    Also, bicycles are rarely two-seaters so she can’t “share the adventure”.

    Maybe. Or strong, independent wahman “share the adventure” on their own wheels in another form of “just hanging out” separate togetherness.

    Either way, when I wander by the local bar-with-Harleys-outside it sometimes turns out that not only do I know some of the riders and their old ladies, I’ve also met their grandchildren…it’s not the same symbol that it usta waz.

    Now, don’t go trying to talk me out of McTruck, too.

  107. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    I was talking about retraining yourself to be a full time Alpha McBadboy.

    That is not game, and you know it.

    Constrained,

    You were directly asserting that MGTOWs spun plates and were therefore wrong/evil/whatever. I see you are walking that back now.

    Gunner Q,

    You didn’t know my uncle apparently. (Neither did I for that matter.) He was part of the Outlaws and that was not a tame group by any means. I wouldn’t worry about retiring terms now. The biker image remains, even if it has mellowed considerably.

    Swanny,

    It is quite likely your marriage would fail even if you could do all Deti notes. Christian wives are not any better than your worldly one, in practice at least. That is the unfortunate state of affairs today.

  108. Frank K says:

    That is not game, and you know it.

    Forgive me, but from what I have heard, that is exactly what “game” is. You are simulating an alpha.

  109. Anon says:

    In my limited experience, men who get all worked up over game are actually upset at the reality of women. They have an “ought” vs. “is” cognitive dissonance problem. Women “ought” to be a certain way, not those earthy creatures visible through The Glasses.

    Yep. But I would take it further.

    They are even more angry that getting results with attractive women is a learnable skill. They have a huge vested interest in the notion that attractiveness to women is due to attributes beyond a man’s control, or otherwise due to extremely rare fortunate outcomes (becoming a billionaire or movie star). When evidence is presented that a lot of it is in fact a learnable skill, they are confronted with the reality of their own laziness and weakness of character.

    That is why, when confronted with the question of what traits make men attractive to the prettiest women, their only answers (in the rare instances that they have the courage to answer at all) fall into three buckets :

    i) Attributes that are wholly genetic (height, aspects of looks that can’t be improved, etc.).
    ii) 1 in 1 million rare outcomes (becoming a billionaire or movie star).
    iii) Traits that are in fact included in the skillset of Game, but they insist are not part of Game. For example, they will say that working on voice tonality and learning when to escalate based on a woman’s non-verbal cues, is not Game. LOL.

    It is amazing the pretzels that Game denialists twist themselves into.

  110. Sharrukin2 says:

    Anon says:

    August 29, 2019 at 9:54 pm

    You forgot the fourth bucket.

    4. Game is real but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

  111. Arcon says:

    Traveler

    Med school is the new “nursing school” and has been so for more than a decade

    Women go into medicine to find high earning partners so they can work part time or not at all and still get “go girl” props

    What they don’t realize is that the men, who migrate to the higher earning specialties, don’t want them and their baggage, they either go it alone or pick a younger, less entitled nurse

    Alone, piled under student debt, aged out of prime child rearing time, too good for a regular joe, they’re future is not what they thought it should be

  112. Anon says:

    Sharrukin2,

    Unless a man is over 60, saying that doesn’t pass muster.

    There have been many times when a bitter incel says that ‘they don’t need women’, only to have a red pill guy go to his blog, sockpuppet as a woman, and get the incel extremely excited that a ‘woman’ is interacting with him.

    Matt Forney did this a few times with a few vocal anti-Game incels, and got the same reaction each time (only to unmask and reveal his true identity after getting the needy incel to say facepalm-worthy things). Matt Forney duped that ‘Omega Virgin’ blog author not once, but twice, in this manner.

  113. Scott says:

    Is there a constellation of traits that most women find attractive most of the time?

    Sure. Pretty easy to observe.

    Do these traits tend to cluster together in a certain subset of men?

    Seems like it

    What seems to be up for debate is the psychological trajectory along which any given boy must find himself (plus the ones he can’t control like height and looks) in order to arrive the place where ease and comfort around women become internalized into his personality structure. (The literature and my money informs that this is a complex interaction of genes and environment).

    And

    Can these milestones be obtained later in life?

    I know what it looks like from my vantage point but I am always willing to be wrong and receive more incoming data.

  114. NotaBene says:

    “Good luck finding a church full of people who properly respect fatherhood and husband-hood.”

    Actually we found one. Yep, even here in MA. It’s about 90% Brazilians, and we love them. Just the other week one of the pastors loudly told everyone in the room that it’s a wife’s duty to submit to her husband (this happens frequently). No one blinked. This is what the church is about – strong biblical families. It’s so refreshingly non-American. We’re staying.

    The wives are generally happy, submissive, non-working wives and mothers. The vast majority homeschool. The kids respect their parents, the husbands are hard-working and seem happy. There is no divorce that I’ve ever heard of, for them marriage is once-for-life.

    Anyway they are not perfect of course, but I wanted to share my success in finding a church for me and my family. The guys saying “look overseas” are at least half right!

  115. Sharrukin2 says:

    Anon says:

    August 29, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    Sharrukin2,

    ‘they don’t need women’, 
    —————-
    I honestly don’t recall saying that.

    What I am saying is that using game to get a woman seems like too much time and effort, but more than that I am not inclined to play the game. As far as the quality goes you can buy that with enough cash and it’s less hassle. Assuming we are talking about sex and temporary companionship alone.

    Anything of a more permanent arrangement is a huge risk with very poor return.

    As far as the incels you keep talking about I wouldn’t be surprised to see them respond to what they believe is the unicorn girl they have given up on ever meeting.

    Saying that you don’t need women, or that you can live without them isn’t the same thing as saying you wouldn’t want one if she wasn’t a banged-out feminist bitch.

    I can live without potato salad and if the only samples on offer are moldy, then I will do without.

    These guys you are talking about aren’t deciding they are done with women in a complete vacuum. The women running around are of such low quality and feel they are so entitled it’s sickening. These guys are likely on the lower end as far as confidence and attraction and thus will be the first casualties of this female entitlement mentality. They aren’t stupid and they know how the world works.

    Your response is to attack them like some junkyard dog, screaming that they are filthy incels and telling them they need to be attractive, not be unattractive, and be confident.

    You are the one that is out of touch, not them.

    Not everyone can be above average and women feel entitled to an above average man. That means that the majority of men aren’t going to make the cut no matter how much you scream. They are of course expected to financially prepare in the unlikely event that they do find that unicorn…but there is a significant cost in lost opportunities and lifestyle which an increasing number of men are deciding that on balance simply isn’t worth it.

    This all assumes that the end prize of a 29 year old flinty-eyed woman looking for a walking atm machine is worth the bother. Even if they could manage to do what you are demanding, why would they want to?

    I have no doubt they secretly hope for some decent cute girl who won’t put a knife in their back to happen along. Tricking them into thinking that has happened doesn’t prove what you think it does. The underlying harsh equations haven’t altered one bit.

  116. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    Forgive me, but from what I have heard, that is exactly what “game” is. You are simulating an alpha.

    Not the definition I have seen. You are certainly aiming at doing things in a way that is appealing to a woman (your wife in the case of marriage game), but I have seen many people talk about it here completely aside from the PUA aspects or even ending up being a complete alpha, something that is not possible for all men, except for possibly the “situational alpha” noted earlier.

    Scott,

    Your approach is better in that you aren’t just dissing what you call game. It is almost a legal term, generating the common legal answer of “it depends.” Some aspects are very helpful – not moping, getting your act together and not expecting your wife to lead you, etc. Exactly where the line is drawn with a Christian can be debated and I doubt I would go as far as some here, but the point is that some traits can be worked on with effort.

    It is no different from my battle to eat well now. It is a real pain and very difficult. I may never achieve my goal. But I shouldn’t stop just because some people are wacked out health nuts. I need to find a good goal and keep pressing towards that, adjusting as needed. The same would be true of game in marriage or any male-female relationship for Christians.

    Those who are knee-jerk against the term aren’t thinking things through, which is far too common in today’s society.

    I bet you do a lot of it inherently in your relationship. That makes it much easier than those of us who aren’t predisposed to parts.

    How you get support as a man when you are going through a really tough time is another question. A wife should be there to support a husband, but that is far too rare today, even in Christian marriages, unfortunately.

    Nota,

    Kids won’t ultimately respect their father in cases where the mother does not respect him. A sad but true commentary. I pray your church can keep working it out!

    Sharr,

    I admit I want a unicorn I am unlikely to find. Why would a woman be available in my target age range. I would not date or marry a 20 year old at this point anyway, so women in the target age range, probably 40+ will have serious issues in almost all cases.

    Even marrying a faithful widow in today’s environment is risky since you will constantly get compared to her former husband who is likely to get better and better in her memory as she sees reality in you.

    Widows do not avoid the problems of the culture.

    I am certainly not holding my breath for that unicorn that is almost certain to never come.

  117. CSI says:

    Even if you find a “unicorn” you don’t know how she’ll change later on. In earlier times, she would have had her friends and family and society in general working to try and curtail her worst tendencies and keep her faithful and married. Now, the only person doing that will be you. Your Frame better be ironclad.

  118. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Forgive me, but from what I have heard, that is exactly what “game” is. You are simulating an alpha.

    Not the definition I have seen.

    There are so many “definitions” of “game” that they’ve rendered the word meaningless.

  119. Opus says:

    I have on this blog occasionally expressed doubt in both the existence of but if it exists the efficacy of Game. I tend to be of the ‘be yourself’ school of thought because pretending to be anyone else is both too much like hard work and rather unconvincing.

    Whether Game is or is not Real, what one sees is: That at any one time there is and can only be one Alpha male. That man may well have a lieutenant. There will be various posers who ape the Alpha but are not the real deal. Then there will be others who have certain Alpha characteristics but are not really in the Game. Finally there are the losers who if anything will try and screw things up for you because they themselves cannot score. This is beginning to sound very much like Vox Day’s Taxonomy.

    I have on occasion here referred to Don Giovanni. The Don (as he is known) is pure Alpha. He can be contrasted with the lovesick Beta Don Ottavio. Leporello is Don Giovanni’s servant and clearly his (sometimes resentful) Lieutenant. Massetto is the dim-witted peasant whose fiancee and on his wedding day The Don steals his fiancee from him and under his very nose – and then as a coup de grace has Massetto beaten up for good measure. Finally there is The Commendatore the old man who foolishly challenges the youthful Don to a fight for the purpose of assuaging his daughters alleged honour – the typical white-knight. The three women are that Daughter, a stuck up UMC and in my view false-rape accuser; Massetto’s fiance Zerlina a young lower-class girl no better than she ought to be and finally Donna Elvira an average looking middle class woman who has had her fifteen minutes of Alpha and assumes that marriage must thus be hers. Americans you can be proud for the writer of this work was Lorenzo da Ponte latterly an American citizen and Professor of Italian at Columbia University who wrote the thing. Musically of course it was Wolfgang Mozart and so I link the Champagne aria. This is what Alpha looks and sounds like in fact reminding me here very much of Harley McBadBoy.

  120. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Every woman, no matter who she may be, changes over time. And so do men. Think back when you were 20 or 25… likely still blue-pilled, romantic, filled with hope to find love and marriage and have kids with this woman and grow old together, perhaps.

    Think about who you are today. Heck, think about when you were 30. Think about how much more developed you were as a man when you were 30 compared to when you were 20 or 25. You are finally developed and complete all the way when you were 30, a far greater man in every conceivable way at 30 then at 20.

    How can you not expect your woman to change over time too? I am not talking just losing her youthful beauty over time. I am talking mentally as well. She will change as she ages as well.

    Her priorities in her 20s may have been some, and even she married in her early 20s and wanted marriage, a house, and kids, now she may have changed in her 30s. And we live in the “i” era, a fickle, selfish time in human history. You are the center of the universe, it is all about I/me/what’s in it for me.

    Back in the day when we lived in a much more stable country and culture, she would have been “stuck” in the marriage and choices she made in her 20s.

    Today, she can easily file for divorce at anytime for any reason she damn well wants, clean you out financially, send you to jail, take your kids away, put you on the treadmill of child support and alimony for decades. You have no say, NONE, in any of it, she is in total control there and the courts and armed cops will enforce it all for her, using your tax dollars.

    Yeah, maybe you have strong Game and a hard Frame pat down and make these into “a lifestyle” so that is how you live day by day. You are in shape, doing well financially, and Alpha. That is actually how I live. But it means nothing if outside influences cause the woman to change.

    But if SHE decides she wants out, she will clean you out and leave you for dead in a heartbeat. It is all up to her, not you. You have no control over any of it. That is a FACT. Being Red Pilled also means to accept ugly realities like this and not skirt ugly truths of life.

    That is why marriage has become untenable in this day and age. It is a one-side contract where the woman has all the benefits and can get out of the contract anytime with huge cash prizes and the man only has responsibilities and obligations and walks away broke and broken. Any other contract like this would be tossed in court as unconscionable, but this is marriage in America today, land of misandry and gynocentrism. This is all according to plan.

  121. Scott says:

    BillyS-

    Thanks for the clear headed critique/analysis. Oscar has heretofore pointed out that “game” is nebulous enough at this point to have quite ambiguous meaning, a sentiment to which I am also inclined. And anyway, it seems one of the most salient definitions of it is N count (or at least, maybe, the potential for it if one is a super high value alpha/devout Christian who is waiting until he gets married.

    So right away, it has an internal inconsistency, because for some, you almost “can’t” be alpha unless you have —-ked a lot of women. What if the super chaste Christian alpha is horrible in bed and on his wedding night he fails to live up to all his destructo-penis potential? Poor girl.

    It’s the ultimate catch-22 if ever there was one.

    Or maybe, we are awash in a sea of cultural phenomenon and stimuli that makes it impossible for us to think about anything other than pleasure and sex, and therefore this fixation on it. Even in the quest for the perfect marriage–which our modern sensibilities tell us must include a scorching amount of chemistry that lasts forever.

    Somewhere I read one of the MGTOWs making the argument that if marriage in the modern world means the man must be in constant perfectly maintained frame, and game his wife flawlessly every second of the day with negs, and body language and dread, and…. just to be in a happy marriage…then no thanks. Never show vulnerability, never show fear, never discuss with your wife the things that you are insecure about, then forget it.

    Personality is a function of temperament interacting with the environment over the lifespan, in particular the first 18-25 years or so. Acquiring the milestones that create a confident, self-assured, morally straight, focused, disciplined, risk calculating man is a treacherous path indeed, and moreso even in this environment where men are truly seen as dispensable, interchangeable comic relief wage earners. Any of the above enumerated traits are now blacklisted as “toxic” unless you are hot and chicks like you.

    And so I have pointed before, any of the responses you see men making today–MGTOW, MRAs, whatever–are rational from any particular perspective. Its a sh—tshow. No holds barred. Every man for himself situation. Figure out what your goals are, contextualized by your own moral standards and move out.

  122. Paul Barnes says:

    @Anon

    There are definitely men out there who legitimately won’t ever take a wife, girlfriend or relationship of any kind (like myself). I’ve turned away women and this will not change. Others see a unicorn, I see a rhinoceros. Cue the unimaginative shaming directed my way. Maybe if you chant the word ‘gamma’ three times, our old pal 7817 will appear.

  123. Novaseeker says:

    What seems to be up for debate is the psychological trajectory along which any given boy must find himself (plus the ones he can’t control like height and looks) in order to arrive the place where ease and comfort around women become internalized into his personality structure. (The literature and my money informs that this is a complex interaction of genes and environment).

    And

    Can these milestones be obtained later in life?

    I think the same can be said about learning a language or a musical instrument later in life — say in the 40s. It’s well known that both of these are more easily learned when younger, in part because of the brain being more malleable at younger ages, and therefore more receptive to the kind of remolding of pathways that is required to speak another language, particularly a more challenging one, fluently, or to fluidly and artistically play a musical instrument well. It is certainly more challenging to do so later in life, and someone starting later in life will likely never reach the level of skill of someone who started with the instrument at age 5 — that’s “off the table”, so to speak.

    Yet it seems untrue, according to observation, that the later in life learner is incapable of becoming competent, while not becoming a virtuoso. It takes a lot of effort and dedication, precisely because the brain is harder to mold, the “reference experiences” with the instrument or language at a young age were missed and therefore are not burned into the brain in an indelible way, so so the later in life learner needs to forge those pathways manually — something which requires great effort, but which, again, based on observation, can, in fact, be done. Again the later in life learner will never be a virtuoso or a native-esque speaker, but they can become quite competent, with dedication and effort.

    In my view this is the way it is with Game. Game is a learnable skill. It does not make everyone a virtuoso with women. It does not make everyone a “synthetic Alpha”. What it can do, however, is make one *competent* with women, for people who have low competency with women naturally (which in 2019 is most men). However, because almost all of the learners of Game are older, and do not have the reference experiences that younger/natural guys did, it requires a lot of effort and dedication to the task, and a real openness to changing fundamental pathways in your brain, with all that this entails, in order to acquire the skill.

    If you don’t do this, you will never actually change — you will always be “faking it”, as Frank says, in the same way you would be “faking it” by trying to speak German by learning a few set phrases and then translating the rest in your head in real time, as opposed to internalizing the language in your head, with the remolding this requires, so that you are thinking in German prior to speaking — the difference between “acting” and “being fluent”. Game is not intended to be “faking that you are an Alpha”. That is the case in the early learning stages, just like it is in the case of the early learning stages with a musical instrument or with learning a language — you’re “faking it” because you don’t really know how to play the guitar, after all, even if you have learned a chord change or two — it’s fake, it’s a “lie” to say “I am a guitarist” at that point. That’s true. But it’s a learning stage. If you keep learning and practicing and remolding your brain and your finger muscle memory, you will transition from that “faking it” stage to the stage of competency — again, with a lot of dedication and effort. The critical issue with Game, however, is that because it is a skill that is about relating to other people, it has to be “practiced” in the social context — you’re “faking it” is being done in interactions with other people during the learning stage, and not, as with a language or an instrument, alone in your own space. That’s because of the nature of the skill you are acquiring however — it’s a social skill, and therefore can only be developed in actual social interactions.

    Which leads to my final point. Given that Game is a social skill that, if acquired later in life (and for purposes of Game let’s say that’s any time, because the “natural” types have their core reference experiences between 15 and 25, and if you haven’t had them by then, then your mind will need to be remolded in a manual way), requires a great deal of effort and dedication to task in order to acquire competency if one does not have the “reference experiences” of a “natural”, the reality is that most men won’t bother to learn it. In part this is due to Sharukin’s idea that “the juice isn’t worth the squeeze” (and, for many men, this is, in fact, true … again, Game doesn’t make it possible for most men to attract HB 8+, or even HB 7+ … it just improves based on where you were baseline). But in part it’s also due to the fact that it is a pain in the ass to develop the skill. Not only do you need to learn a lot about it in terms of changing one’s mindset and frame, and what that actually means, but then you have to go and open hundreds of women in real life. You won’t learn the skill otherwise, and if you are not a natural you won’t develop the kind of “comfort around women that becomes internalized” that you’re talking about, Scott, without opening hundreds of women, learning to accept rejection, becoming outcome independent, learning to adjust and calibrate and so on … all of which, over time, makes one more comfortable around women and interacting with women in a social/flirtatious way, in an internal/non-fake sense. Because it’s based on the process of building one’s own set of reference experiences, at a later period in life, that form the basis of an actual, real, developed confidence and skill, and not a “fake front” (which is what it always starts as, of necessity, because you actually *don’t* have that internal set of reference experiences at the beginning that is the required basis for a genuine internal confidence and comfort in the area).

    The process is unattractive to most men. It requires time, energy and effort. It requires dedication to task and an openness to really change yourself in ways that are more fundamental than they may first appear. And it involves interacting with a lot of people, and getting a lot of rejection and dealing with uncomfortable situations, especially at the beginning, if one is to make any progress. And you don’t see actually results for a while. And, if your expectation is that at the end of the process you will be bedding HB 8+ with ease, then that will likely never happen for most men. So for all these reasons, most guys won’t learn Game. This has, in fact, always been acknowledged by people who have looked at Game — most men won’t bother to do it, because it is too much effort, and too much of a pain in the ass for most men. Most men can’t be bothered, and prefer to fap to porn and get the occasional sex here and there that they can with no Game. That’s a given. But it doesn’t mean that Game isn’t real, or that it can’t be learned. It *can* be learned, but it’s hard, it requires a lot of time and effort, and most people won’t follow through with it.

  124. Lost Patrol says:

    There are so many “definitions” of “game” that they’ve rendered the word meaningless.

    Like “abuse” and a dozen other words that had some sort of fixed place in my lexicon, but are becoming harder to nail down as time passes. In the earliest days of my exposure to the manosphere terms like game, alpha, beta, red pill, zfg, etc. fell into place for me. They fit the context of what was being discussed and I thought I understood the same things about them as everyone else. That wasn’t really the case.

    The more I’ve see them used over time the less clear they become, to me at least. Now I just have to move out with my nebulous terminology in tow.

    Sometimes the more I learn the less I know.

  125. Oscar says:

    @ Paul Barnes

    Others see a unicorn, I see a rhinoceros.

    Ha! That’s funny, because the legend of the unicorn (monoceros in Greek) probably comes from an extinct one-horn beast (the elasmotherium) that roamed ancient Europe. Which would explain the myth of the unicorn fighting the lion, because Europe also had huge cave lions back then.

    Marco Polo even referred to Asian rhinos, which usually only have one horn, as unicorns.

    So, when the old King James Bible refers to unicorns in Job 39:9-12, it probably actually means unicorns.

  126. As always, lots of excellent comments on this thread. Really enjoy this blog.

    I wanted to offer a few comments about not losing hope. Yes, things are bad and are going to get worse. Yes, AWALT is a fact of nature (so is “AMALT”). But, as Christians, we are to have hope even in the worst of times (think of the story of Elijah being pursued by Jezebel and losing hope in 1 Kings 19:4-14). What did Jesus say to his followers?

    25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?

    28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

    Matthew 6:25-34.

    God is in charge. God will provide. Have faith. Don’t put your faith in yourself or some other worldly guru. But, take note, as Jesus warned: “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Matthew 10:16.

  127. Lost Patrol says:

    @Novaseeker

    Game might really be little more than development of new or improved social skills?

    ———————————————————————————–

    OT: From the “War is cruel, and you cannot refine it.” Gen. William T. Sherman collection.

    https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/07/17/lawmaker-orders-investigation-pink-tax-womens-military-uniforms.html

    https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/08/29/air-force-units-must-provide-lactation-space-for-nursing-moms/

  128. Novaseeker says:

    Game might really be little more than development of new or improved social skills?

    At its core, yes, that is what it is. In order to be developed, though, a lot of practice is required just as the case for learning a language or learning an instrument. But because that lot of practice has to happen in public interaction with other human beings, it is a pain in the ass and something most people won’t bother with.

    When you think about it, most people don’t actively work on their social skills. They kind of take who they are, whether they are baseline good at it or not, and accept that. They may tell themselves that they can’t change that, but that isn’t true. What is true, however, is that changing it is very hard and requires a lot of effort and “reps” over an extended period of time, with rejection and uncomfortable situations. So most won’t do it.

    When we say “development of new or improved social skills” it makes it sound like it’s easier than it is, I think, in terms of the effort and time required.

  129. Lost Patrol says:

    Just so.

  130. 7817 says:

    So for all these reasons, most guys won’t learn Game. This has, in fact, always been acknowledged by people who have looked at Game — most men won’t bother to do it, because it is too much effort, and too much of a pain in the ass for most men.
    … But it doesn’t mean that Game isn’t real, or that it can’t be learned. It *can* be learned, but it’s hard, it requires a lot of time and effort, and most people won’t follow through with it.

    This is right on.

    I’m no alpha, but the work I have put in has given me results that convinced me Game works.

    You are right though, it’s not as simple as learning to play a musical instrument. It’s more like learning a new language and moving to a foreign country.

  131. 7817 says:

    Paul Barnes:

    There are definitely men out there who legitimately won’t ever take a wife, girlfriend or relationship of any kind (like myself). I’ve turned away women and this will not change. Others see a unicorn, I see a rhinoceros. Cue the unimaginative shaming directed my way.

    On the contrary, I’m glad you won’t burden a woman with your presence, it would be a rather nasty thing to do to the woman.

    My only regret is that you don’t show men who ARE interested in relationships the same courtesy and remove yourself from their lives.

    If you don’t care about a relationship, why are you here? Go have fun, live your life. I can’t recommend this enough, enjoy whatever you can. This place would be nothing but a drag for someone who is enjoying the single life. Someone in that position wouldn’t want to hear about relationship problems, they’d be to interested in hobbies, music, motorcycles, sports, camping, surfing, scuba diving, video games, whatever.

    Why are you here Paul? Go build a life.

  132. naturallyaspirated says:

    @Novaseeker

    Great post on the process of developing some Game. Can’t disagree with much.

    However, I wanted to stress one thing. If you simply get to the gym, lift weights, lose your belly fat, and look good with your shirt off, it’s amazing how much that change can improve your confidence. Around everyone, men and women. There is a lot of instinctual baggage in the human lizard brain regarding physical dominance, strength, power, leadership, that comes with simply how your body looks. (for men and women)

    If a man can get in shape, learn discipline on lifting and diet and stick to it, becoming “competent” in Game something that seems actually attainable. Just start there, a lot of men will be surprised how that simple change improves things.

  133. Gunner Q says:

    Anonymous Reader @ August 29, 2019 at 8:29 pm:
    Also, bicycles are rarely two-seaters so she can’t “share the adventure”.

    Maybe. Or strong, independent wahman “share the adventure” on their own wheels in another form of “just hanging out” separate togetherness.

    I’ve been told that chicks like bikers partly because the motorcycle is a giant vibrator and she has an excuse to grab her boyfriend around the hips in broad daylight. It would explain why so many of McBadBoy’s motorcycles are badly tuned.

    Bicycles can’t give that.

  134. Gunner Q says:

    7817 @ 9:56 am:
    “If you don’t care about a relationship, why are you here? Go have fun, live your life. … Why are you here Paul? Go build a life.”

    You don’t get to police Dalrock’s comment section, 7817. That’s Dalrock’s job and we all know he’s not the guy you’re taking orders from. You come here trying to chase off the commentators you don’t like? You are scum.

    Silencing the people who disagree with you is the core tactic of Socialists and feminists. You aren’t their enemy. You’re their IMITATOR.

  135. 7817 says:

    You don’t get to police Dalrock’s comment section, 7817.

    Of course not, and I don’t pretend to have that power.

    The point is to get people to think about why they do what they do. If you are a mgtow that is genuinely happy and genuinely doesn’t want a relationship with a woman, why would you be on a blog devoted to discussing issues related to relationships?

    If a man is not genuinely happy as a mgtow, then he should make use of the actionable advice available here and improve his situation.

    Leaving is a solution.

    Improving is a solution.

    Grumbling and complaining is what the Israelites who died in the wilderness did.

  136. feministhater says:

    The point is to get people to think about why they do what they do. If you are a mgtow that is genuinely happy and genuinely doesn’t want a relationship with a woman, why would you be on a blog devoted to discussing issues related to relationships?

    This is silly. Men can discuss what they want, when they want and how they want to. You are not needed her to police a damn thing. This blog discusses many things, the modern feminist world being one of them, relationshits being another; many derive a sense of belonging and a means to learn by engaging here. If you want to police the comments section, go to Vox and apply there.

    Many have improved. They have devoted their lives to something else other than marriage and family. What you think of that is irrelevant, they can share their stories to their hearts content.

    Your point is to shame, you have nothing else left in your arsenal.

    MGTOW have found their solution. They don’t want or need your validation. You need to go and find your solution to your own problem.

  137. Oscar says:

    @ Gunner Q

    I’ve been told that chicks like bikers partly because the motorcycle is a giant vibrator and she has an excuse to grab her boyfriend around the hips in broad daylight. It would explain why so many of McBadBoy’s motorcycles are badly tuned.

    It’s a Harley Davidson thing. Traditionally, Harleys have a 45* V angle, and no counter-balancers. That makes for an inherently unbalanced engine that imitates a paint shaker. Rubber-mounting the engine dampened the vibration, and the latest versions even have counter-balancers, but HD continues to engineer a certain amount of vibration into their engines because that’s what their customers expect.

    Most other motorcycle companies have been counter-balancing their engines for decades.

    Chicks dig motorcycles for two reasons.
    1. Looks. This one’s subjective.
    2. Danger. This one’s pretty obvious.

    The “outlaw biker” perception has pretty much disappeared, I think. Harleys are expensive, so most of their customers are upper-middle-class men in their 50s who are returning to motorcycling after driving a minivan or crossover for years.

  138. Oscar says:

    @ naturallyaspirated

    However, I wanted to stress one thing. If you simply get to the gym, lift weights, lose your belly fat, and look good with your shirt off, it’s amazing how much that change can improve your confidence. Around everyone, men and women. There is a lot of instinctual baggage in the human lizard brain regarding physical dominance, strength, power, leadership, that comes with simply how your body looks. (for men and women)

    Definitely. Another major confidence-builder that too many men neglect is learning to fight. It doesn’t really matter which method you choose – boxing, wrestling, muay thai, jiu jitsu, judo, some combination thereof… whatever.

    Learn to fight. You’ll probably never need it in real life. That’s not the point. The humility and confidence a man learns from taking and giving a beating can’t be learned any other way of which I’m aware.

  139. CSI says:

    @7817 It would be easier to accept being single, and being happy about it, if you read what shitshows relationships and marriage can be, especially now.

    @Novaseeker Another factor is everyone is born with different mental abilities. Outside of having an actual disability, these differences are mostly subtle, but they are real. Of course many claim this as an excuse to get out of putting in the work, but in truth some men just have an easier time with Game due to the mental abilities they are born with.

  140. poetentiate says:

    “Jennifer Roff explains that threatening to take men’s children away is an effective way to coerce them into doing a much larger share of the housework.”
    So a marriage is and/or should be more like a war than anything else? Someone that even hints at this attitude needs to be kicked to curb. Preferably BEFORE children are had.

  141. Ohio says:

    Here is what you have to look forward to marrying today….testimonial from MGTOW

    Hey there. I have had a few people private message me and request me to post this here as it got taken down from some of the other forums.

    Excuse me for any poor writing or poor wording. I’m tech savvy for my age to a point but I’m still pretty new to Internet forums and such.

    My wife of 32 years just left me for another man. I found out she has cheated on me numerous times in the past 16 years. She told me she stopped loving me around 20 years ago and was basically just with me for my money and for a place to be. I never made her work. She was always a stay at home mom and even before and after that we always had a nice amount of money with my well paying job. So she never needed to work. I wanted to give her the best life possible. I got a lot of paid time off so we would vacation together as much as we could. I would also send her away on solo vacations whenever possible so she could get some fun time to herself. Where I recently learned she was having sex with other men. Sometimes even taking other men with her without telling me.

    This all came out about 2 days ago and I haven’t felt the same since. My whole life has basically been a lie. I have been taking care of this woman for my whole life and she has been backstabbing me and double crossing me the whole time. I also found out she stole money from me numerous times when we were young before we were married. I used to trust her and not hide money or anything when she came over and she would take it any chance she got. I found out that one of my kids are not mine. My youngest son is some other guys that she doesn’t even know the name of. I do not know how to tell him or even if I should. She did have him DNA tested years ago. She just never told me until now. I did everything for her. Her life has been a relaxing slew of getting everything handed to her. I worked. I took care of the babies when I was home. I cooked. I cleaned. I did the dishes and the laundry. I never made her do a thing. She got to relax and watch Netlix or TV when I wasn’t home. Or fuck other men in our bed while the kids were at school. Or go out to eat with other men with my money. The past 2 or 3 years she has grown more cold towards me but I thought it was just a rough patch. She hasn’t shown appreciation for anything I’ve done for her in years. I’d come home and surprise her with flowers. I’d come and surprise her with tickets to another country for a vacation. She claims she’s been with a few guys a year for the past 16 years and she almost left me for one around 7 or 8 years ago but they didnt work out. She finally met him though. The guy she actually wants. She’s registered on dating sites. She’s done a whole bunch of shit behind my back. I trusted her. I never thought in a million years this would be her. I got fired from my job today because I have not shown up the past two days. So I lost my extremely well paying job and my wife is probably going to get most of my money and the house and everything during our divorce. When we bought our house she wanted to put it in her name because she felt like she accomplished something with a house and two cars in her name. Now I know why.

    She cleared out one of our bank accounts when she left as well. Everything I worked for my life is just gone. I’m fucked. I’ve also recently gained about 80 pounds. I guess the old age finally caught up to me. I was fat before that but now I’m just obese. I can’t stop eating either. I thought I was going to live a happy end to my life with her and we’d be forever. Instead I’m going to die a broke, depressed, fat, mess. I don’t know what to do or where to go from here.

    During the start of our relationship she did ask if we could be in an open relationship and I said no. She said that she respected that and I was who she truly wanted to be with so she wouldn’t do anything and I thought that was the end of it and that I could trust her. I was so so wrong.

    There’s so many more evil things I’ve learned over the past few days that I can’t think about right now. She told me one time I actually came home to her and another guy fucking years and years ago and he hid in the closet til I went to the bathroom and left. I keep learning new things and maybe I’ll write more in the comments or make a update post. But I’ve basically accepted defeat here. She won. She used me for years and now has destroyed me. She’s going to get everything she wants out of me. She knows some pretty bad things about me and has threatened to tell people if I don’t comply with her orders. So I’m so screwed.

    She said the spark died for her years ago. I suspected it was during the time around 20-22 years ago we fought a lot. She confirmed that. It was Probably our worst rough patch. I thought we’d recovered but only I did. She was just great at faking it all these years I guess. She manipulated me and used me and lied to me. I’m heartbroken. I feel the pain inside of my body. What do I do? I posted this somewhere else but apparently the rules do not match this post.

    I also forgot to mention how I found out. Apparently she has been using fake names for contacts for the past few months as a couple months ago she was getting odd texts from her friend (or so she called him) and I confronted her and she told me she would stop talking to him. Well the other day her mom who died a month ago was texting and calling her so I went through her phone for the first time and found everything. I always trusted her so much. We had a huge fight when she got out of the shower that day and I have been slowly finding things out since.

    It’s like something switched inside of her when I found out. Like I said she has been somewhat cold lately but we have still had good days. Once I found out it’s like she’s turned into a different person who is evil and mean and vile towards me now.

    Quick update for you guys. I decided to call my boss and as I said in the comments he is an asshole and doesn’t deserve the position he is in. He told me he only left the voicemail saying I was fired so that I would pick up the phone. I explained the situation and he said I had better call next time but to come back to work Monday morning with a fresh head and a good attitude.

  142. white says:

    @Ohio

    You don’t understand, the guy just needs Game and all will be well

  143. Anon says:

    Sharrukin2,

    What I am saying is that using game to get a woman seems like too much time and effort, but more than that I am not inclined to play the game. As far as the quality goes you can buy that with enough cash and it’s less hassle. Assuming we are talking about sex and temporary companionship alone.

    There are many obvious flaws in your argument.

    Prostitution is obviously not as fulfilling as free-will seduction of a willing woman. If that were the case, countries with legal prostitution and a lot of attractive prostitutes (like Germany, which draws in a lot of young women from EE as prostitutes) would no longer have any male-female relationships.

    That is obviously not the case.

    Plus, it has been heavily proven that anti-Game types get giddy once even a female handle on a blog starts to interact amorously with them (again, as Matt Forney proved by sockpuppeting that ‘Real Peterman’ omegavirgin guy). That indicates how much neediness for actual romance resides under the surface of their psyche. I have no reason to think you would be different (again, unless you are over 60).

  144. Red Pill Christianity says:

    *Novaseeker says: I think the same can be said about learning a language or a musical instrument later in life — say in the 40s. In my view this is the way it is with Game. Game is a learnable skill. It does not make everyone a virtuoso with women. It does not make everyone a “synthetic Alpha”. What it can do, however, is make one *competent* with women, for people who have low competency with women naturally (which in 2019 is most men).

    Red pill fest so far, Nova. Game can be learned at any age, but one must understand his Game will have to be deployed on women around his age as well, since only more Alpha (or rich) men can pull off Game too far outside his age range in America today.

    Game is not just a social skill; it is a self-improvement lifestyle change. It has to start with taking The Red Pill and accepting the truth that women, relationships, marriage, churchianism, and our society are not what they have been or even what they want you to think they are.

    The bill of goods you have been sold for years, the “life script” and old social contract you have been sold are not real anymore. They are a figment of a past America, a part of the West that has died and yet many men continue to believe still exists and still seek. That is why so many men today deny game exists or is real (Game Denialism) or live a Blue-Pill world where it is still 1950 and all women just want a good man witha job to have a family with. No one wh0res herself or overindulges in alcohol or drugs. lol

    Interesting thing, one of my co-workers who is a Vietnam veteran who is 63 years old was dating a 19 year old for a time. Clearly she has very serious daddy issues, but when he came to office with her, I almost asked if she was his daughter and did not say anything because “you never know these days”. But this guy is on ‘roids, has a Harley, and in great shape and a natural Alpha to pull this off. But still, he is 63!!! It did not last, but whatever, he got to date a 19 year old for a time at his age. I asked him if he was studying Game and he laughed and said “what, like Chateau Heartiste?” and I said yes, like that and he said “of course”.

    *Novaseeker says: If you don’t do this, you will never actually change — you will always be “faking it”. Game is not intended to be “faking that you are an Alpha”. That is the case in the early learning stages, just like it is in the case of the early learning stages with a musical instrument or with learning a language — you’re “faking it” because you don’t really know how to play the guitar, after all, even if you have learned a chord change or two — it’s fake, it’s a “lie” to say “I am a guitarist” at that point.

    Correct. Game is not magic, it is not a way to deceive others, that would be acting. Game is a series of social strategies and personal self improvement strategies that make men more valuable to women. And then you have to “take the red pill” to understand the truth about women and life has changed, maybe unbeknownst to you. Understanding these changes and (harsh) realities makes you a better man and better suited to deal with women.

    *Novaseeker says: “The juice isn’t worth the squeeze” (and, for many men, this is, in fact, true) … again, Game doesn’t make it possible for most men to attract HB 8+, or even HB 7+ … it just improves based on where you were baseline).

    This is becoming more and more true for me as the years go by. I will hit 40 in a couple years and the amount of work “chasing tail” is becoming a bit too much for me as time goes by. I do in person approaches mostly when I am single and when in LTR, I stopped all approaches completely. So when I start “dating again” iI feel some pain. Like when you stop working out for months at a time and then start again, you feel major muscle soreness and pain. That is life.

    I run game on HB6-HB8’s only, it is very rare when I even approach an HB9, but I do on rare occasions. I am very fit, however, have a cool car, and I am a pretty boy 8 with a bad boy attitude overall. The issue for me is age, American women are set in their ideas of “how old her BF should be”. Honestly, if she says something rude like “I don’t date guys over 35, for example (which is a shit-test), I say “yeah I don’t date girls over 30 either, but I am 32, so we got like 3 years to hang out then. Here put your number here and I’ll text you later.” *grin*.

    The interesting thing is that when I succeed with American women 7+ years younger than me, it is because I am asking them out on a date. Millenial girls have literally no idea what I am talking about. The idea of going out to “grab a drink and do stuff” is confusing to them.

    Their idea of a “Date” to most Millenials is going to some guy’s house to “chill and watch NetFlix”. If you do not know what “NetFlix + chill” means, here is a guide:

    That means zero effort on the guy’s part. And often on the girl’s part too. But truth is, many women want to “get dressed and go out” sometimes. So one strategy I use is to invite her to go OUT and do something. So yeah costs me a few bucks? So what? I do well in the cash arena. I got no Ex- and no child support. I am good.

    The “let’s go on an actual date and do sh!t” has worked for me many times before. You might wanna try it out. But it works best on a on-person approach. The idea of going out with a man who is inviting you to DO something and go somewhere public is appealing to Millenial girls.

    Try this out, ask her on a date, it might give you some good results, after you explain what a “Date” is, if she is under 25, she will have no idea what an actual date is. Just keep it reasonably priced, no reason to take her to a fancy place early on.

  145. vandicus says:

    @Ohio

    Get a lawyer, start by suing divorce and for everything(it’s the best place to start), custody, house, cars, child support. If you’re lucky you’ll get something like joint custody and have to pay limited child support. Whose name the house in probably doesn’t matter.

    Don’t worry about any potential blackmail. Investigate whether that’s a criminal offense. Don’t move out of the house(good way to lose it). Video document what she does and says as much as possible, she may try extreme things to kick you out.

    See if you can document a confession of criminality, particularly recent stuff(statute of limitations may prevent older stuff from being fully useful).

    Do not do anything violent, even in self defense, again, try and record anything violent she does if possible.

    Press criminal charges on anything you can, gives you a better starting position.

    Those are the key points off the top of my head.

  146. Red Pill Christianity says:

    *Novaseeker says: Not only do you need to learn a lot about it in terms of changing one’s mindset and frame, and what that actually means, but then you have to go and open hundreds of women in real life. …learning to accept rejection, becoming outcome independent, learning to adjust and calibrate and so on … all of which, over time, makes one more comfortable around women and interacting with women in a social/flirtatious way, in an internal/non-fake sense.

    Women can sense fakers because men are generally much better when they are honest with themselves. But as with everything initially in life, you “gotta fake it ’till you make it”. It will get better, though.

    Anything worthwhile in life will take work and effort. If it is easy, then it is probably worthless. Mastering a popular video game is fun and easy. But it has no value. Mastering a foreign language or getting a hard advanced degree or learning how to Game women is hard.

    Game takes time. Not years… months. The effort and time you put into it is worthwhile for most men. Game is about self-improvement and ALL self-improvement is worthwhile.

    *Novaseeker says: The process is unattractive to most men. It requires time, energy and effort. It requires dedication to task and an openness to really change yourself in ways that are more fundamental than they may first appear. And it involves interacting with a lot of people, and getting a lot of rejection and dealing with uncomfortable situations, especially at the beginning, if one is to make any progress. And you don’t see actually results for a while.

    Yes, that is very true, but we are talking months, not years. If you are an introvert, you might want to start off with online dating HB3’s range at first, not in person approaches. They do not have to be obese, just nerdy girls who are homely will do, there is a limitless supply of women like that on Tinder, dating sites, apps, etc.

    I am an extrovert and talkative, so I do in-person approaches like crazy. But let me tell you, the first 10 approaches when I am single again suck. I always think “I need to LTR longer next time” because of the amount of work and stress it causes. After about 10 when I am single again, I am good. It becomes second nature. Again, I liken it to working ut for a while, stopping completely, and starting back up again.

    I also encourage the newcomers to Game to learn from reading first and I recomment Rooshv, ReturnOfKings, and Heartiste as 3 main sources of Game discipline and strategies. Also, take a brutally self-assessment of yourself: how are you REALLY doing physically? Do you need to gain or lose weight? How is your haircut and clothes choices, given your age and overall style?

    You will need to make adjustments for sure. As humans, we can (and should) seek to always improve.

    When you start doing in-person approaches to do two things: First, find about 3 or 4 locations you can walk up to women and talk and rotate them so the cashier at Public/Safeway does not give you looks when he/she sees you trying and failing to pull women. It can annoy and discourage you. Good locations are malls, a local college campus, beach boardwalk that people walk around in clothes, not bathing suits (especially if you are still working on your physical improvements), and local businesses (coffee shops, Starbux, book stores, etc). You want places where women are relaxed in, not in a rush, like a subway station (these “rush locations” are for more advanced Game practitioners). Do NOT run game, ever at work!!!

    Second, do this in the car for 5 minutes before you walk out to start approaching in person. Start telling yourself “I do not give a f*ck what anyone thinks of me!” and say this over and over again, starting with a whisper tone and increase it from whispering it to louder until you shout it once and then you walk out. SAY it out loud, do not just think it.
    That helps raise your adrenaline a bit and helps you ignore rejections. 99% of women will reject you, unless you are Brad Pitt or Leo DiCaprio or you drive a Ferrari. It is that simple. It is OK. You have a target audience that will respond when you reach it. You will soon learn your “niche market” and you will get much better at understanding and targeting women for in-person chats.

    DayBang by RooshV is easily one of the best books to learn this. I highly recommend it!

    *Novaseeker says: And, if your expectation is that at the end of the process you will be bedding HB 8+ with ease, then that will likely never happen for most men. So for all these reasons, most guys won’t learn Game.

    Exactly. Most guys think Game = saying magic words and women will go crazy for them. That is simply not it. That may be clickbait in banners, but that is not real life.

    I am an 8 man all around (finances, looks, physically, no messy personal life) BUT I fully understand that I live in a gynocentric country, so women who are 4-5’s (or below, actually) think they have some sort of “Female birthright” to get with a guy with his life together like me, even though they have 3 kids by 3 different dudes or are fat or alcoholic.

    Unlike women, I am red-pilled man, so I am much more realistic about life. Dating a woman who is an HB8, she is at my level, but our women are so dam entitled, HB8s are “actual work” to get with, so many times I settle for a good 7, which creates stability and allows me to “loosen up” on my Game a bit.

    Getting to date/bed a woman who is at your level is hard in America today because our women are so entitled and the thirst by dudes is high. They think they need to date up 1-2 on the man, so it is a headache.
    In Ukraine, brother, I can pull 8s with regular frequency and even an occasional 9 without paying. That is because the Ukrainian women see value in other things, not just appearance. They want a man who would be a good father, has a job, does not drink too much or gets violent. It is all about location and culture.

    In the US for me to pull a 9 as an 8-man is very very very hard, I have done it a few times in my life, but the amount of work to get with her and then try to KEEP her is just not worth. That juice ain’t worth the squeeze and I have to squeeze is hard top get with a 9. An American 10 is not even in my radar even when I see one, probably P2P would be required and I am not down with that. Heck, I won’t even bother with Ukrainian 10, she will be a lot of work for me as well, since she is +2 on me in looks department and unless I am willing to spend cash on her, she will not be around. A 10 wants a really rich guy or Brad Pitt.

    Simply put: after you do a brutally-honest self-assesement of yourself, target women within 2-points of your own value. If you are a 6-man, you are dating 4-8 women only, understanding an 8 will be a lot of work to even engage, much less date long term and a 4 will be “normal difficulty”, since she wants to “date up” always and feels “entitled” to do so.

    As Nova says, today since most guys can “get by” today on porn/low value women from Tinder from time to time, they never bother with Game or any effort. Basically, you will never fully realize your potential in life with that mindset. 😦

    Lack of effort is a huge problem for most people in 1st world countries today. Most of us have become lazy and discouraged. That is understandable, though. I get like that sometimes too.

    Think about it. You have a comfortable, A/C, heated place to live and even if you work a “hard job”, it is not nearly as hard as same type of work would have been 100 years ago. You have a “magic box” in your living room with endless movies, entertainment, music, and more. You have a video game that can provide you with cheap and fun entertainment at home for days at a time I like gaming like most men. But I also understand I have to keep up physically too.

    Having to go out and find a living woman, deal with her baggage, demands, quirks, costs, etc is not worth it for most. I get that. I feel the same way many times.
    Even RooshV has to find ways to get out and motivate himself to do at least one approach a day. It is hard work for most guys, especially after we pass 35.

    The problem is, how far do you want to get in life? How far are you willing to go to get what you want? How much effort are you willing to put forth to date a woman whom you appreciate?

    Think about these things. You have one life to live. There are no do-overs. How many regrets will you have later in life if you do not at least TRY now? Game will improve your life, not only with women, but at work, personal interactions, and more.

    NovaSeeker, dude that was a Red Pill feast. Thank you. Preach on, brother.

  147. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ohio
    Here is what you have to look forward to marrying today….testimonial from MGTOW

    Having actually known men who went through frivorce, I find your trolling to be lame. At least attempt some sort of credible link rather than just this semi random stuff.

  148. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Red Pill Christianity

    Do you expect your blog to be back up soon?

  149. Red PIll Christianity says:

    Soon, I hope. 😉 I have a friend who can read and write Russian helping me find a host in Russia, Unlike the Tech Dictatorships of America, it is extremely rare to get banned from Russia. One downside is the slower ping/lag times to load pages, sometimes. Server distance, older equip, and slower response times can be to blame. But at least they rarely deplatform/ban in Russia (when it happens, it is anti-Russian govt stuff), and unlike here in the US where a couple of complaints can get someone banned from anything, from WhatsApp to a website, Tweeter, FB, or webhost, in Russia, they do not care.

    I need help since I cannot read Cyrillic. It will be a .com name, not anything Russian, though and will have US-based security against attacks, etc. LOL

    Ps. Did you guys see Heartiste.org has been blocked again?? >_< Just unreal how our Overlords in tech treat their own citizens. Zero belief in freedom of speech or ideas.

  150. Paul Barnes says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    Are you married? Care to post a photo of your wedding band or other proof?

  151. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Wait! Heartiste.org is back-up again! But the site has been rolled back in time again, he probably had to re-load his site off a back-up going back to May 2019!!!

    God bless American tech “freedom”. *roll eyes*

  152. Red Pill Christianity says:

    white says: You don’t understand, the guy just needs Game and all will be well.

    Game cannot fix a past relationship that is that damaged. It can help his future though, although it seems this guy has killed himself and worn himself out a lot for an ungrateful woman. Game is from this point forward.

    The only relationships Game can save are ones that are still monogamous/faithful and that would be with introducing relationship management skills, like Dread, Amused Mastery, and holding Frame. That can help re-adjust and re-balance a relationship. I know a man in my small group that

    This MGTOW story that Ohio posted is typical. But Game will not help salvage that trainwreck, it is too late. Why would he even want to salvage that?

    His critical mistake was “doing too much”, it allowed her to become more spoiled and less appreciative of him. You MUST make your woman “invest” into the relationship. The less she puts into it in terms of effort, the more likely she is to cheat and leave.

    Women do not appreciate men that do too much for them, that for some reason. Women are rather irrational about things like this. You have to give her 2/3 of what she gives you, to force her to continue to put in and invest into the relationship.

    (see Commandment V: Heartiste.org/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/ )

    One of my friends did everything for his ungrateful girlfriend, including her laundry (no seriously!) and all her landscaping so she could save money. She disrespected that guy like crazy.

    I had this posted on my site for a while (credit to RV for letting me re-post it).

    You give a woman too much, she will hate you for it. You show ANY WEAKNESS, you are toast. Doing too much for her tells her you need her more than she needs you, thus why you do so much to try to please her.

    The most you can do is to show her some mild weakness when you get really sick, like the flu, IF she is a nurturing female type, she will come to help you. They actually enjoy that for a short while. Not long term, but for a short while

    Women are primal and can be rather calculating in their truest form. They will forgive a man for failing, but they will not forgive weakness. Do not show them any weakness. Be like a cat that hides its weaknesses until the very end.

  153. Sharrukin2 says:

    Red Pill Christianity says:

    August 30, 2019 at 5:10 pm
    ——————–

    That’s a beautiful story. I mean really wonderful.
    —-‐—–‐——–
    You show ANY WEAKNESS, you are toast.

    Women are primal and can be rather calculating in their truest form. They will forgive a man for failing, but they will not forgive weakness. Do not show them any weakness. Be like a cat that hides its weaknesses until the very end.
    ———————-
    So game is a great deal of effort, time, and rejection….but if you persevere you get to share your life with someone who does shit like that. If you are good at game and you watch them all the time you might avoid a knife in the back. Might.

    Sounds great.

    And those silly mgtow DON’T want to sign up for this?

  154. Scott says:

    The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. For several decades during the behaviorism years especially (Pavlov, Watson, Skinner), the dominant, conventional wisdom was that it didn’t really matter why. If you put an organism to a task or through some stimulus, you could be fairly well assured that the organism would behave essentially the same way as it always did.

    Unless you conditioned it to respond differently using classical and operrant conditioning techniques.

    Different reinforcement schedules were devised to test these theories, and for the most part confirmed for many people that what was happening inside the organism (the black box) was not important or even relevant. This lead people like John B Watson to say that he could take any baby, and given the right stimulus, turn that baby into Mother Theresa or Hitler. All that mattered was that the conditioning was done correctly, at the correct intervals and with the correct intensity.

    In fact, the book and movie “A Clockwork Orange” challenges this presupposition for arguments sake. Recall, in the end, after they thought the “treatment” had “worked,” we see Alex in bed apparently having successfully been cured, but he imagines himself (with orgasm ecstasy on his face) doing the very things that are supposed to make him ill.

    The behaviorists were nearly unanimous in their statements that there either was no such thing as a “mind” or “personality” — or even if it did exist, it didn’t matter. Only stimulus in —> behavior out mattered.

    Later, more heuristic and insight oriented treatment modalities and techniques came back into favor, although, relying on what I now think of as abridged Freudian psychoanalysis. Even Aaron Beck, the “father” of modern Cogntitive Behavioral Therapies admitted as much in his first book on the subject.

    Beck and pretty much all who followed allowed for the patient to explore things like their “core beliefs” and “automatic thoughts” which are fancy psychological terms used to describe various functions of ones inner life–the “mind” had come back into popular thinking about behavior.

    This doesn’t even scratch the surface of the biological bases for behavior that manifest in the priming, and valence literature.

    Regardless of which camp you fall into, there is one thing that is really hard to debate. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. And in the end, it kind of doesn’t really matter why. At least not from a coldly calculating perspective about change. Over the developmental lifespan, these patterns–call them personality for shorthand– become VERY DIFFICULT to dislodge after your early 20s. The frontal lobes–where your calculations and volitional actions are formulated have completely formed at that point. You start with the raw material–the genetic loading from your parents for being more inclined to anxiety, or depression or pessimism, or negativity, or optimism, or whatever then you apply the stimulus to certain known reference points (points along the timeline that we know are important developmentally for ALL humans) to it and after about 20 years you get–you. This is the you who almost ALWAYS behaves the same way given a certain set of circumstances.

    All of this merely provides the backdrop for what Novaseeker is trying to describe–in its end state. Whatever “game” is, it appears to be, at least from a clinicians perspective, a deliberate attempt to acquire certain mindsets that you should have acquired when you were 6. Or 8. Or 12. Or whatever. This should strike those who intend to embark upon such a journey as REALLY HARD. Missed milestones change the trajectory–drastically. Its like trying to go back and create an alternate internal reality for yourself like Back to the Future II.

    When I read about “cold approaching” I am bewildered. I will confess to this–I have never cold approached a woman in my life, and I have never been without a girlfriend (or whatever) for one second longer than I wanted to be. Does this make me arrogant? I hope its not taken that way. But every relationship I have ever had was initiated by the woman. Starting with my first serious LTR in high school and on–it was made obvious that all I had to do was make a move. I think in “game” terminology this is called “IOIs” No guessing. No pining for some girl I think is super cute if only I had the courage to talk to her.

    What happened? I have no idea. But it started really early and I never gave it much thought until I started reading around here. Does this make me “alpha?” I don’t know. I just thought it made me “normal American dude.”

    “That girl at the front of the room.
    So close, yet so far, you know she never seemed to notice
    That this silly, school boy crush
    Wasn’t just pretend”

    –Social Distortion

  155. Novaseeker says:

    I need help since I cannot read Cyrillic.

    Ah. Hmm — just give it a try, though. I mean Cyrillic isn’t that hard, you can learn it in a couple weeks, or faster with some more dedicated effort, even if you are coming at it cold (which you really aren’t). Good news is that the language(s) (Russian, Ukie) are phonetic because Cyrillic is totally phonetic, so once you learn it you can read pretty much anything properly without worrying about odd pronunciations like we have in English. I’d encourage you to pick up a book and take a couple weeks, or a month, to learn Cyrillic, especially since you travel there a lot. Will open things up a lot more for you.

  156. Novaseeker says:

    When I read about “cold approaching” I am bewildered. I will confess to this–I have never cold approached a woman in my life, and I have never been without a girlfriend (or whatever) for one second longer than I wanted to be. Does this make me arrogant? I hope its not taken that way. But every relationship I have ever had was initiated by the woman. Starting with my first serious LTR in high school and on–it was made obvious that all I had to do was make a move. I think in “game” terminology this is called “IOIs” No guessing. No pining for some girl I think is super cute if only I had the courage to talk to her.

    What happened? I have no idea. But it started really early and I never gave it much thought until I started reading around here. Does this make me “alpha?” I don’t know. I just thought it made me “normal American dude.”

    Almost every guy gets IOIs from some woman/women at some point. The difference is that you got IOIs from women you were at least attracted to enough to be interested in them. Many guys don’t. They get IOIs but not from women they are interested in.

    The “wait for IOI” approach works if you are attractive enough (entire package) to solicit IOIs from women whom *you* find attractive. Not necessarily the one you are pining over, but someone you find attractive enough to be interested in. Most guys aren’t in that situation. It’s great that you were, but most aren’t.

    I got plenty of IOIs when I was younger as well, but most of the women were not interesting to me as potential dates — a few were, and so that’s whom I dated. It was ok, but it was less than ideal, by far. If you’re in that situation, you can try to improve your overall attraction and hope to solicit IOIs from women you find attractive (again not the superhottie, but attractive enough to be interested in), or you can approach women you are interested in and open them. You will get rejected a lot at the beginning, but it gets better over time as you get better at it. And yes it is very hard to get better at it, because it’s hard to change the “wiring” (for lack of a better term).

  157. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott
    It makes you a “natural”, i.e. someone who started early, had enough positive reference experiences to obtain a state of unconscious competence. No, that’s not the standard American dude. Especially among the younger men who have gone through 12 to 18 years of “men bad! Bad men!” brainwashing from the public school systems & some postsecondary. Have you seen what uni “diversity training” looks like now?

    Novaseeker
    Almost every guy gets IOIs from some woman/women at some point.

    And a lot of men are oblivious to that. They literally do not see, or even cannot see, Indications Of Interest. They’ve been ground down by the Feminist machine so badly that they regard themselves as worthless in many ways. Or they just don’t speak “girl” and understand what an IOI looks like.

    Or both and more. I see college aged men every day who can’t recognize an IOI so they any approach is guaranteed to be “cold approach”. They have been brainwashed to be ashamed of their male existence. Meanwhile I see 20-something women who are incredibly hungry for any scrap of masculinity, but they attempt to qualify themselves in a male fashion: a pretty girl reeling off her degrees, certifications and places she’s traveled is demonstrating independence and provider status, the things her hindbrain wants from a man.

    tl;dr
    Brainwashing women that they are men with boobs, and brainwashing men that they are defective women who can’t ever really hope to measure up has screwed a lot of people’s minds up. Badly.

    Thanks, feminists. Thanks a whole lot. Can you quit tagging your idol, Tabula Rasa, with that crappy graffiti someday?

  158. Scott says:

    Occasionally, the impetus for real, deep lasting change is unaccounted for. It’s source a true mystery.

    A single mother, prostitute on welfare who just wakes up one day and turns her life around.

    A man hits rock bottom after a life of drugging and boozing becomes a drug and alcohol counselor.

    Whatever.

    The heart-level changes are wildly unpredictable and we are all inspired when we see them. As a Christian, I believe these people are having an encounter with the divine.

    It’s certainly not something they read about abstractly and tried to implement in their lives.

    But they are the exception, and therefore prove the rule. People generally stay the same. They do what they usually do. They do what they want to do. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

  159. Novaseeker says:

    And a lot of men are oblivious to that. They literally do not see, or even cannot see, Indications Of Interest. They’ve been ground down by the Feminist machine so badly that they regard themselves as worthless in many ways. Or they just don’t speak “girl” and understand what an IOI looks like.

    It’s also about framing.

    When you are waiting for an IOI, you are submitting to the female frame for mate selection. What does that mean? It means that you are basically allowing women to assign you a “league” (we all know how women love to talk about a man’s “league”), and waiting for women who see both you and themselves in that league to give you an IOI.

    Under that frame, if you are an attractive man, you will be seeded into a higher league by women, according to their frame, and you will generate IOIs from women in that higher league. This is good, because it means that you are attracting women whom you find attractive. It’s in the woman’s frame, which is not ideal, but the result works in that you get a GF/mate who is attractive to you and who you know is attracted to you as well.

    It doesn’t work well if you are not a conventionally attractive man from the perspective of how women place men in leagues without ever having interacted with a man or having spoken with him. This is easily emulated on Tinder or any other dating app which operates in the female frame. I mean, Bumble, which is the dating app that was designed by women for women is made so that men cannot technically contact a woman unless she has already given an IOI in the app. This is the woman’s frame — it’s how women want dating to work, because they choose what league you are in, and you have very little agency in that other than display.

    If you shift the frame to a more agentic one, you are the one approaching women *you* are interested in, rather than waiting for IOIs. You don’t pay attention to women’s “leagues”, you go for whom you are attracted to, and you see what happens. You are in your frame, and not hers. You will be rejected, and quite a bit, but not always, and the thing is when you are not, she is always someone you chose, and therefore it’s always in your frame. This is fundamentally empowering for all men, but in particular for men who are placed “down” in women’s “league” seedings due to things like height, skin color, facial masculinity, social context and the like. It’s especially beneficial for these men who can then take the agency back, and pursue their own agenda and not taking what their female-designated “league” assigns to them.

    But you have no hope whatsoever of pulling that off without Game. And you have no hope of developing the level of Game required to really become agenctic without a lot of trial and error. Again, if you are naturally attractive enough such that being in the female frame of leagues where women select and you date women you find quite attractive, this is needless for you. Good for you, you have one less thing to worry about in life. But if you are one of the many men whom women will relegate to a lesser league, with women to whom you are not attracted, you have the option of learning some Game, getting some agency, and making things better than they would be if you had just accepted the female framing for your dating life.

  160. Novaseeker says:

    People generally stay the same. They do what they usually do. They do what they want to do. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

    I agree. And most people never learn a foreign language to fluency, or learn to play a musical instrument to fluid competency. Most never do, because it’s hard and time consuming to do because your brain fights you every step of the way actively. Yet some do. One can be “most” or “some”. Probably one’s ability to be one or the other is also somewhat determined by one’s own bag of tricks in terms of adaptability, cognitive ability, energy level and so on. Yet if one has the qualities required, one can be one of the “some” and not one of the “many”. One can learn a new skill to proficiency.

  161. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott
    The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

    I think you are talking your book, Scott. I’ve seen multiple persons change for the worse; their former behavior just goes away and is replaced with something else.Sometimes it is a major life event such as birth or death – a woman definitely changes after the birth of her first child. Sometimes it’s just an accumulation of minor changes that add up to something big. I’m pretty sure you’ve seen this as well, if you reflect on it. Nobody starts off life as an alkie, something has to change in their behavior. Just to pick one example.

    More to the point, most men won’t choose a nagging, fight-picking, sex-denying, perpetually angry woman to marry. Yet the manosphere has plenty of first person true stories of just that – clearly someone’s past behavior didn’t predict the future very well. There are reasons for that as well, having to do with reference experiences, childhood experiences and lack of feedback.

    Some of my friends who were frivorced can see in hindsight when things began to go bad, but others just can’t see anything, they are still blindsided: “Well, she just got bitchy and wouldn’t stop and kept on picking fights all the time and marriage counsling didn’t work and then she left”. Not quite verbatim but close. The pre-bitchy behavior failed to predict the post-bitchy…

    Lots of people do not look at their own behavior, and cannot manage themselves, so they can’t be expected to manage anyone else. Those are traits that can be learned as well, but are not really taught all that much.

  162. Anonymous Reader says:

    Reference experiences matter as well. 100 years ago in the upper classes various social structures existed to teach young men and women how to interact with the opposite sex in a polite and restrained fashion. It gave a framework for interest and attraction to play out, or not, depending on the individuals. Since the middle class and working class aspired upwards, there was a lot of copying of behavior. Some degree of politeness and manners was expected, and people who didn’t conform found themselves shunned one way or another. Men couldn’t be too boorish and women couldn’t be too mean without getting called down by someone with a bit of social authority.

    Many of those guardrails are gone. It’s not just boorish behavior that can get a young man in trouble, just being male at the wrong place can do it as well. Nuclear rejections by mean girls happen, and if that’s a young man’s early reference experience he’ll need some rewiring in his neural pathways to be able to succeed in even talking to girls.

    Clearly all that “talk about your feelings” junk thought that can be traced back to the 70’s and maybe the 60’s hasn’t done men any favors. Being “sensitive” can make a man that much less confident, and we all know that confidence matters in many ways, not just with women.

  163. Lost Patrol says:

    Scott

    The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

    This is not really good news in a few cases I know of personally, but if you live long enough you will certainly see it play out.

    Novaseeker

    One can learn a new skill to proficiency.

    Also clearly true and men reading here have probably done it.

    These two explanations highlight for me some of the confusion/disagreements about game that crop up. I’ve seen it promulgated as a skill set initially, almost mechanical, but leading to behavioral changes that become part of a “new man” personality. A changed man.

    I read Nova saying one can develop interpersonal skills at any time when willing to expend the effort, and use them to advantage, while Scott is saying develop them all you want but you are unlikely to ultimately change the character of the base man, which was largely set early in life.

    I sense there is more to it, but not really sure.

  164. Scott says:

    AR

    It’s interesting you mention that about seeing people change. Reflecting on this I would say that in the aggregate I have seen most people stay basically the same. “Same” here is being used as a clinician does in a clinical setting. That is to say, manifestations of the deepest personality traits, idiosyncrasies and pathology are not always the same in kind, but predictable in their basic form.

    In other words, a person can make surface level changes in behavior but I will see them again in 6-12 months for a different manifestation of the sake original problem.

    This is also related to your point about unforced errors in mate selection. What a highly contentious and complex subject in the context of late 20th century hedonic marriage culture!

    I’ve mentioned this before, but in my years as a counselor for convicted domestic batterers, I noticed a pattern. I would say to the men:

    “Most of you could walk into a room with 500 women. 499 of them are well adjusted, sweet, good boundaried girls would make great wives or girlfriends. One of them is a borderline, alcoholic, crazy episode of “cops” waiting to happen. And you two would be attracted to each on a deeper subconscious level than you have access to right now.”

    Therefore, they would end up with the same woman over and over, with only the name changed.

    Until they step away from women, and make deep, lasting changes to themselves

    I didn’t realize it at the time, but this is where my heart for helping men fix themselves began. 20 years later I am trying to formulate ways to help them initiate real change, but the evidence supports relatively predictable life trajectories unless something huge happens to make more of the same intolerable for the individual.

    I know I sound fatalistic and hopeless. But it’s my job to predict human behavior. On active duty, the referral question from commanders always included a prognostic component. “What’s he going to do, major?”

    To which I would always reply “what does he usually do?”

    Betting on the odds is how I make a living. When the variables point to the person staying the same, I bet on the winning horse and they think I’m a friggin genius.

  165. 7817 says:

    the evidence supports relatively predictable life trajectories unless something huge happens to make more of the same intolerable for the individual.

    Right on. Wish i could point some your way Scott.

    People have a way of being happy being unhappy.

  166. Novaseeker says:

    I read Nova saying one can develop interpersonal skills at any time when willing to expend the effort, and use them to advantage, while Scott is saying develop them all you want but you are unlikely to ultimately change the character of the base man, which was largely set early in life.

    I agree with that.

    Game doesn’t change who you are — it won’t make you the same as an Alpha or a Natural or someone who was attractive to women since forever. But it will improve your prospects. That is what it does. Along the way it will change you in subtle ways as well (just like learning a language does** — note below), but won’t make you “another person”. It will improve your prospects.

    ** Learning another language to fluency has an impact not just on your ability to communicate and read/etc in the language, but it has other, more subtle impacts as well. When you are thinking in a foreign language, your mind embraces the concepts of the foreign word — which isn’t often a translation of the English, but a comparable word that has different subtle scope and connotations. This means that when you acquire the ability to think in that language, you also take on new ways of looking at familiar concepts, you reconceptualize things. It is a subtle effect, but one that is nevertheless quite noticeable.

  167. Lost Patrol says:

    just like learning a language does**

    Yes, I understand your meaning here. Before I had learned another language, if I thought about it at all, I figured people the world over were saying about the same things to each other just using different words. But this is not the case at all.

  168. RichardP says:

    God.

    Old Testament:
    Him: He will rule over you
    She: Oh yeah!. Watch this

    New Testament:
    Paul says, this is God talking – not me: blah blah blah blah; but if she leaves …

    I do believe that every thing discussed upthread is explained by one or both of these exchanges. How is it that boys are taught the Bible in Sunday School and still turn into men who think that God has promised them certainty? Certainty is not at all what the Bible teaches, if you pay attention to what it actually says. But then, if you are not taught that this is what it actually says …?

    God said that it was not good for man to be alone. And then intentionally created for Adam someone who would force him to choose between her and God.

    What has changed since then?

  169. RichardP says:

    For clarity’s sake – I know God said “he will rule over you” after Eve ate the forbidden fruit, not before. But God created Eve to be a proper and fitting help for Adam. For Eve to be a proper and fitting help for Adam, she had to submit her will to his, to place his agenda over her own, to follow any instructions that Adam gave her about what he wanted done and how he wanted it done. By any other words, that process is Adam “ruling over” Eve – before she decided there were benefits to be had from disobeying God. So the general point I was making in the previous post still stands, even if the wording seems to be backwards.

  170. Thursday says:

    Anon says:

    “The good news is, it is not hard to be in the top 20% of men in SMV.”

    In a global market, that’s easily true. However in the more restricted modern Sodomopolis most of us have to live and work in, it’s a different story. Even in second-world countries, there’s a big difference between rural and city. In a rural area, you’re probably top .5%, but no female with any prospects is going hang out there, so all the attractive women will be in the city where you’re competing with the top-tier men of a completely different market. In other words, it doesn’t do any good to be world-wide top 5% if you’re only top 40% or worse in the areas where all the attractive girls are getting smashed by the top 5% of that area.

    TLDR: you could be a god in 95% of the world’s females by all reasonable standards and still feel like chopped liver in the local SMV of a big city.

  171. Asaph says:

    Yes. It is helpful regardless

  172. Thursday says:

    @Opus

    That bit about the Mini was hilarious. And you’re bang-on about the female “driver.”

  173. Head of the Home by Gods Design says:

    Commenter after commenter weigh in with their sincere explanation of why women do what they do. Alpha vs beta stimulus produce some predictable response. The problem with all of it is that women are adrift in a constant storm of emotion. There’s no logic and no sense. You can’t make sense from nonsense.
    So here’s the truth. Wealth and inheritance come from the father, but a prudent wife comes from Jehova. I can’t tell you how many times in my 22year marriage I’ve prayed for my wife and asked for many things regarding her and have been treated to oftentimes instant astounding miracles. As husbands we are sealed in a contract by God’s design for marriage. Our wives do belong to us whether they feel like it or acknowledge it or not. Whether we’re alpha or beta or not. God designed each and every man in his own likeness. The glory of God is man. The glory of man is woman. The glory of woman is her hair. If you’re not claiming your wife before the throne of God and all the hosts of heaven and claiming your headship over her and asking Him to make her a prudent wife, and asking Him to bind and cast out the Jezabel spirit that IS attacking her then you’re doing your wife and family a disservice. If you’re reading this and have never done those things, drop what you’re doing and try it.

  174. Opus says:

    Is Game pseudo-science?

    Is it in Popperian terms falsifiable?

    I am reminded: I had a friend who may have been at some point (one forgets) a client (or vice versa). He told me ‘Opus I really envy you, as you are quite indifferent as to whether you do or do not have a girlfriend’. This greatly surprised me but he went on to explain as follows: “I have to have someone living with me. My live-in-lover packed her bags one Friday evening and told me she was going, and out she went. On the Sunday evening I heard a knock at the door and on opening the door I saw my former live-in-lover standing there with her suitcase and asking to be readmitted. I explained to her that this was not possible as on the Saturday I had gone out on-the-town and later that evening installed my new lover”. Is this guy the true Alpha male? Is he a total loser? – or – is it as I rather suspect that certain personality types (over to you here Scott) have certain types of life experiences that are denied to others. By way of example Scott explains up above that whenever he needed a girlfriend one would be available. He says he has never cold-called. That has certainly not been my experience of life and yet from the age of fourteen I have, on the streets, both in day light and sometimes at night though usually during the day, picked up god knows how many members of the opposite sex. Anon if I recall correctly maintains that one can go for meeting to coitus in five or is it seven hours. Trust me more than a few minutes strikes me as slacking – i don’t go out looking for it but to me it just happens.

  175. Oscar says:

    @ Opus

    Is Game pseudo-science?

    No. Chiropractic therapy is pseudo-science, but its proponents at least agree to the definition of chiropractic therapy, what it is, what makes a chiropractor, etc.

    Proponents of “game” can’t even agree on what “game” is.

    Is it in Popperian terms falsifiable?

    No. Because if you can’t define something, then you can’t falsify it, either.

    I’m neither a proponent, nor an opponent of “game”, not because I believe “game” doesn’t work, or doesn’t exist, or whatever, but because its proponents can’t even agree among themselves what “game” is.

  176. FatR says:

    I’m of the opinion that Game, insofar as anyone can agree as to what it is works.

    I’m also of the opinion that it is the case of “play stupid games, win stupid prizes”.

    Sure, maybe, I can (by devoting almost as much time as I spend earning my daily bread, to activities which I don’t enjoy, in principle, or to the degree required) overcome my natural disadvantages to the point of becoming attractive to women who are in turn attractive enough to give me a boner. Maybe I would even be able to do that without cultivating Dark Triad traits, which, given my experiences with people around me, certainly helps to score.

    Or I can devote a portion of that time to earning enough for hiring a whore every new day, given that I live in a big city, with a wealth of quality sex workers around. And whores will have the advantage of shutting up and not bothering me with inane talk upon figuring out that I just want sex. And, notably they, not me, would be ones jumping through the hoops to please the other party.

    Of course, in no case would I want to actually share my life with a being who will – and that is according both to Game advocates here, and to sordid experiences of my friends and relatives – stab me in the back the moment I show more than a briefest weakness. Not that I hate the idea of companionship and children on principle, but I’m not going to subject myself to living under the same roof with someone I don’t trust, yet have to please, while also paying for this dubious privilege.

  177. PokeSalad says:

    Game doesn’t change who you are — it won’t make you the same as an Alpha or a Natural or someone who was attractive to women since forever. But it will improve your prospects.

    Learning Russian wont change you into a native Russian….but it sure makes getting around Volgograd or Moscow a great deal easier.

  178. Scott says:

    Thread is slowing down a bit. Totally unrelated

  179. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Trannies attack, defund, Women’s Rape Crisis Center: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/08/shelter-for-battered-women-and-rape-victims-vandalized-with-kill-terfs-and-trans-power-graffiti-dead-rat-nailed-to-the-door/

    A Canadian shelter for battered women and rape victims has been the target of persistent threats from transgender activists over their denial of services to those who are biologically male.
    They have now been vandalized twice in approximately two weeks.

    In one incident, a dead rat was nailed to the Vancouver crisis center’s door.

    When staff at the shelter and crisis center arrived for work on Tuesday they were greeted by vandalism declaring “kill TERFs,” which stands for “trans-exclusionary radical feminists,” and “trans-power.” …

    In March, Vancouver announced that the rape crisis center would no longer receive a $34,000 annual grant from the city, “saying the charitable group does not meet its trans equality and inclusion criteria, adopted in 2016,” City News reported at the time.

    “While (Vancouver Rape Relief Society) services have been and are very important, staff identified concerns about the organization’s position on trans women in relation to the full intent of grant criteria,” the city said in a statement.

    Morgane Oger, who chairs the Trans Alliance Society, had been lobbying for their funding to be pulled since 2013.

  180. Strike Three says:

    I have just finished reading all the comments on this thread. It seems to me that something has changed in the way this blog operates. Several of the serial commenters have turned into the know-it-all jerks who “commanded” the direction of every lunch table bull session I ever had as a high school or college student. We’ve even got aggressive amoral libertines who explicitly or implicitly boast of their sexual exploits, and shame the poor guys who don’t “maintain frame” or who don’t manage to keep their BMI at its proper level. We’ve got guys from England telling Americans what we Americans are really like, and we’ve got divorced and re-married guys telling us what Christian husbands need to do in order to stay married. We’ve got at least one “red-pilled Christian” who writes stuff no cross-bearing Christian would ever want to live by. Upthread, poor Ohio tried to share his tale of woe and he got next to no sympathy; I guess he deserves his misery because he put on some weight over the years (sarc.). And, and, and…….

    Sheesh. Some time ago seventies-Jason was run off (rightly, I might add) for derailing every thread with his constant lamentations and inability to listen to correction. But this particular thread tells me that Dalrock again needs to thin the herd, and soon.

  181. Scott says:

    Maybe you could just email Dalrock the list of names of people you think should be banned.

  182. BillyS says:

    Oscar,

    Then it is not worth arguing about game if you find it meaningless or vague, right?

    Scott,

    I would use a different word if it summarized things better. I do not believe the PUA part is a requirement. I think the attitude part is and ALL MEN would do better if they kept a positive attitude of some sort, whatever their relationship status. That is why I would still use it.

    Those who insist it requires a high N count are missing the entire point. And they are not honest, since they are fine with men getting better by eating right or lifting weights, even if that doesn’t start in the ideal manner.

    We all have to improve ourselves in this life. We should be good stewards of the life we are given and that includes acting effectively with women.

    This would apply to you too Opus! You should always seek to improve yourself and be effective, hopefully to serve your Lord Jesus, whatever your relationship is (or isn’t).

    Scott,

    I still want reconciliation with my wife or a relationship with a godly faithful woman. That isn’t going to happen (almost certainly in both cases), but I still have a huge pull that way. And I know better! Men who don’t know better are really in trouble.today, unfortunately.

    Even your situation was a luck of the roll. I will repeat that I am glad it worked for you, but I doubt even you would recommend it for other men. (I can’t recall what you have specifically said on that, so pardon me if I missed something.)

    This is a tough road to walk and the anti-game people could tone down their anger at the term and what they think it means and instead focus on what a Christian man should be doing, which would include improving himself.

    (Post was prepared yesterday, but left unposted by mistake. May be overwhelmed by later discussion.)

  183. Oscar says:

    Off Topic, but very much on point:

    Capitalism and capitalist states rely heavily on the family as a unit of social discipline, social order, austerity.
    ……
    In the history of feminism, abolishing the family was – you know – very well known as a demand, particularly in the ’60s and ’70s, among certain strands of women’s liberation.~ Sophie Lewis

    Uh…. yeah. Capitalism relies on families. That’s why it’s awesome. And that’s why feminists hate families. Because feminism has never been, and never will be, about “equality”. Feminism has always been, and always will be, a Marxist ideology that seeks to empower government by destroying families, by stoking women’s envy of, and resentment against their own husbands, fathers and brothers.

    Abolition [Aufhebung] of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

    On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution.

    The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital. ~ The Communist Manifesto

  184. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Then it is not worth arguing about game if you find it meaningless or vague, right?

    Boy, then it’s a really good thing that pointing out the lack of agreement on a definition isn’t an argument, isn’t it? What a relief!

  185. BillyS says:

    Very good points Novaseeker. Definitely an aspect of what I was trying to get across.

    Change “game” to “social improvement” and will the same people have a fit about using the term? Most likely “game” and “PUA” are connected completely in their heads, so they cannot separate the two and thus oppose game by reflex.

    I am not sure exactly how to play it out in a Christian marriage even so. Dark game is a bit edgy for my tastes, though I will likely never get to work it out at this point.

  186. Oscar says:

    @ Scott

    Maybe you could just email Dalrock the list of names of people you think should be banned.

    That would require something other than passive-aggressiveness.

  187. Opus says:

    Up above at 02.39 and as an aside Billy S encourages me though I take it in a nice way to improve myself and to be effective. I would of course attempt to do better if I knew how.

    I do wonder then whether attempting to do so would be the equivalent of attempting to increase my height and I have noticed – not specifically with regard to Billy S – that Americans are always into improving themselves. The mania for jogging – I notice Americans never walk anywhere – as much as for religion.This is I think then an American thing. Ben Franklin with his Poor Richard books was very much into self-improvement and that was a quarter of a Millennia ago and reading Jefferson he is much the same. They both seemed to raise the bar a bit too high – at least when it came to the fair sex – a stumbling block for both of them. There are tens of thousands of self-improvement books available on Amazon all assuring you as to how your life might be improved and yet I do wonder whether any of them are of any use whatsoever (I exclude of course the one book which is known to be effective).

    The English however aim for easy mastery; playing the game, stiff upper lip and largely indifference to just about everything. Gurus as much as enthusiasm are seen as rather suspect.

  188. BillyS says:

    7817,

    Gunner Q said it better than I. You are merely trying to do the policing you are projecting on others.

    poetentiate,

    So a marriage is and/or should be more like a war than anything else?

    I told my wife that was our core problem when I was married. I was the enemy in her eyes, not someone to work with. I can be a huge pain, but I can also adjust that if someone works with me. She did not and thus we are where we are today.

    white,

    You don’t understand, the guy just needs Game and all will be well

    Who ever said that? Do you like being an idiot?

    RPC,

    Game is not just a social skill; it is a self-improvement lifestyle change.

    The bill of goods you have been sold for years, the “life script” and old social contract you have been sold are not real anymore.

    That is probably the hardest part many face, especially since this can get so ingrained in even those of us who know better.

    It is just like eating habits. Those can be changed, but they are hard. A book I am listening to now (Why We Get Fat) makes the point that changes in eating have to be permanent and never walked back if you are to maintain any weight loss you achieve since your body has a core focus it will revert to very easily. That fits my experience, in both diet and social interaction.

    Though I have no desire to date someone younger than my children RPC, even for a time. Dating your granddaughter (in that case) is idiotic.

    Zero belief in freedom of speech or ideas.

    They never believed in that. They claim to now, but it is only for speech or ideas they approve of.

    Scott,

    Your innate character from what you describe is likely why you can make your current situation work out when most would not.

    RichardP,

    God said that it was not good for man to be alone. And then intentionally created for Adam someone who would force him to choose between her and God.

    Not true. Even was the perfect complement to man. The Fall did that in. The curse only came after that point, not before it. EVERYTHING was worse after The Fall. You need to study a lot more.

    I am not of the “blame Adam” camp, since I am no longer convinced he was literally a few feet from her when she ate of the forbidden tree, but rather in the Garden “with her” as it says. His response was still not good. He should have approached God to seek what to do rather than acting on his own. That is a common failing of men today as well.

    Thursday,

    TLDR: you could be a god in 95% of the world’s females by all reasonable standards and still feel like chopped liver in the local SMV of a big city.

    All 5 of the reasonable women that exist today….

    The problem is that society pushes against women becoming and staying reasonable, even in churches. That is the core flaw.

    FatR,

    Or I can devote a portion of that time to earning enough for hiring a whore every new day, given that I live in a big city, with a wealth of quality sex workers around. And whores will have the advantage of shutting up and not bothering me with inane talk upon figuring out that I just want sex. And, notably they, not me, would be ones jumping through the hoops to please the other party.

    You can also get some fabulous prizes that way as well. Sex outside marriage will always have the risk of severe consequences, even with “protection”. You can’t eliminate the risks of sin, even if you avoid them for a while. Don’t delude yourself there, though many men do in that area as well.

    Strike Three,

    I am not sure if I am on your “please ban” list, but these things work their way out over time. I definitely trust Dalrock’s approach in that.

    Longer off topic discussions happen more often when no new posts are coming up.

    Keep in mind as well that you have to have contention or a blog/forum/whatever will lose steam and cease having value. People can only enjoy patting each other on the back for so long.

  189. BillyS says:

    On learning Russia: I have a set of cassettes from Pimsleur on learning Russian. While I haven’t listened to a cassette in years and learning Russian is not at the top of my priorities, I can’t quite get myself to throw them out. My dad was attempting to be a missionary in Russia near the end of his life. No sentimental value with them though, just the value of the “lessons”.

    Though I expect I should just dump them and buy the same thing on Audible or such.

  190. Novaseeker says:

    They both seemed to raise the bar a bit too high – at least when it came to the fair sex – a stumbling block for both of them.

    Franklin? Franklin was basically a PUA. In a different era, he would have written “BANG: Paris!”.

  191. Anonymous Reader says:

    Opus
    Ben Franklin with his Poor Richard books was very much into self-improvement and that was a quarter of a Millennia ago and reading Jefferson he is much the same. They both seemed to raise the bar a bit too high – at least when it came to the fair sex – a stumbling block for both of them.

    Lol!
    Franklin was a womanizer from an early age, and father of at least one bastard (said bastard was a Tory during the Revo…probably peevish at Dad). Here’s a letter from 1745 advising a younger man:
    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2011/02/older-mistresses-are-so-grateful.html

    Novaseeker
    Franklin was basically a PUA. In a different era, he would have written “BANG: Paris!”.
    Pretty much. The color scheme on this page is annoying, but the facts are there.
    https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~engelis/bf_and_women.html

  192. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Opus: The English however aim for easy mastery; playing the game, stiff upper lip and largely indifference to just about everything.

    Please. The English gave up on the “stiff upper lip” over 20 years ago, when Princess Diana died.

    The even made a documentary on the subject:

    The ruggedly individualist American cowboy remains more real than the “stiff upper lip” Englishman.

  193. Opus says:

    Indeed yet anyone reading his Autobiography where he rings his hands about failing to marry the woman of his dreams might have supposed that he was chaste. I guess that failed to make the final cut.

    The only one of Franklin’s homes to have survived and indeed in the same state as that in which he left it is in London in the road to the west and parallel to Charing Cross Railway Station. I have visited though the great man was out.

  194. Opus says:

    As for Diana Princess of Wails, The outpouring of sentiment for that woman had me reaching for my sick bag. It is now only the older generation now rapidly departing who have any backbone.

  195. I imagine Opus sipping tea and eating a Bath Oliver at his club(The Athenaeum)and discussing theology with bishops and discussing the finer points of the law whilst fondly remembering Melford Stevenson,Lord Denning,Christmas Humphreys and that doyen of English law Mr Justice Cocklecarrot with High Court judges.
    Opus is currently writing a book to be entitled:’Famous Criminals that I have Known’,where he fondly recalls Charlie Richardson,Ronnie Kray and Ruth Ellis.

  196. Anonymous Reader says:

    Opus
    Indeed yet anyone reading his Autobiography where he rings his hands about failing to marry the woman of his dreams might have supposed that he was chaste.

    Franklin was very good at managing his image. As a young man he would get out of bed, put a cover over a wheelbarrow that he pushed through the streets of Philadelphia for a while. Then he would go back home and get back in bed.

    I dunno about that hand-ringing, though. Seems too painful for a hedonist like Franklin.There’s a fairly good portrayal of him in the 1970’s musical 1776. The actor in that movie originated the role on Broadway and was a cert to take the role in the movie.

  197. locustsplease says:

    @ Nick M. After the rise of lesbian relationships leading to children i have yet to see an article of one of them loosing custody and getting destroyed. Its like a mystical shield comes up and protects them. They get awarded joint custody in my non joint custody state. Judges dont want to commit some kind of hate crime one sided beating divorce on one of these protected class peoples.

    As our great OP has consistently pointed out the whole goal was to destroy the original family. And since these people are no threat they get a rubber stamp and a smile. Its like they get to parent and have a relationship with no western judical threat point.

  198. Anon says:

    BillyS,

    Change “game” to “social improvement” and will the same people have a fit about using the term? Most likely “game” and “PUA” are connected completely in their heads, so they cannot separate the two and thus oppose game by reflex.

    You are more correct than you realize.

    A few years ago, an anti-Game troll known as ‘AlekNovy’ was circulating around the ‘sphere. He claimed that he created something that works better than Game, called ‘anti-Game’. In reality, all it was was a scheme to

    Reclassify Game as ‘anti-Game’
    Reclassify bad Game as ‘Game’.

    No one who knew one iota about women was swayed, but some of the anti-Game incels became giddy that AlekNovy would get them laid, while bashing ‘Game’ to boot. They got swindled out of money by this AlekNovy, and it took years for them to sheepishly admit it (the OmegaVirgin/Real Peterman guy still has not admitted it). The same people still insist that there is such thing as ‘Game’, without being able to provide any details about which aspects of a man’s attractiveness to women are within his control to improve.

  199. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    I dunno about that hand-ringing, though. Seems too painful for a hedonist like Franklin.There’s a fairly good portrayal of him in the 1970’s musical 1776.

    Wake up, Franklin! We’re going to New Brunswick.

    Like hell I am. What for?

    The whoring and the drinking.

    Franklin jumps out of his chair.

  200. Since there are over 200 comments on this thread I hope that Dalrock won’t mind too much of I ask an OT question.
    What happened to all those old time religion American Deep South preachers,who preached fire and brimstone and healed the affilicted. You know the type:Pastor Billy-Bob Braggart.
    Many years ago I saw on television an American preacher telling his congregation that a little girl’s lameness was caused by demons. He then laid hands upon the girl called upon Jesus for Divine help and then roared:’begone Satan!’ The little girl fell backwards into her mother’s arms and her lameness was cured. Does this type still exist or have they all been replaced with mealy-mouthed, supplicating, hand -wringing pastors who can’t praise the women in their congregations enough?
    I ask because I remember we were told that they would soon be seeking an audience in Britain through satellite technology and later in person. However nothing came of this. The documentary hinted that these preachers loved money almost as much as they loved God. So why didn’t they come here I wonder?

  201. Jed Mask says:

    A main thing in the end all men must remember is that NO ONE can truly “force you away” from your own flesh ‘n blood children: not your children’s mother(s), society, government, etc. MEN WILL themselves to always be there to take care of their children one way or another. It’s your *GOD-GIVEN RIGHT* and no one but GOD could ever change that *FACT*.

    We men need to quit “blaming government/society” for them “making it hard” as though we still can’t be in our kids lives if we wanted too: you ALWAYS have a choice; to the point of death if need be; but always have the CHOICE.

    Just because society/governments make it harder for men to perhaps have more physical presence with their children don’t mean they can “keep you” from doing your duty to look after the welfare of your flesh and blood.

    I speak this only as a man because I’m not a father myself personally but if I was and whether the mother of my kids and I got along or not and regardless of any “exterior forces” to the best of my ability by God’s Grace I would do the best I can to make it intentional I’m looking after the well-being of my flesh and blood.

    All men that know of men going through this should naturally be forming a “social brotherhood” of support to fathers who are really actively doing their best to be in their kids’ lives; it’s what we must do and it’s *OUR FAULT* if we fail to support the men we see as fathers in everyday life actually trying their best to do the right thing and we shamefully don’t help them out by “having their back” in any way we practically can help them succeed in life.

    Let’s actually *DO THIS* and not just “speak” ‘it’s too hard’ because it’s not when we have a lot of men working together to accomplish an important goal: which is ultimately male-led and male-guided households in the Western world and universally as well. Amen.

    ~ Sincerely,

    Bro. Jed

  202. Oscar says:

    Off Topic: The Other McCain admonishes parents to warn their daughters about the modern “House of the Rising Sun”.

    https://theothermccain.com/2019/08/31/mothers-tell-your-children/

    Oh, so she wanted to be a secret whore, not a public whore, and therefore she is a victim of . . . what? Her own stupidity, I’d say. What happened, you see, was that whatever the producers were telling these girls verbally, when they signed a contract, the fine print gave the producer unlimited rights to distribute the videos.
    ……
    Oh, the unbearable shame of it all! You were whoring around and thought nobody would ever find out what a nasty whore you are? Oops.

    What is happening, obviously, is that the parents of these girls have failed to warn them of the dangers, and probably most parents would not believe how common such behavior has become.

    On a side note; I had no idea that the song “House of the Rising Sun” was an old folk song, and that the original was written from the perspective of a girl who was enticed to work at the eponymous establishment as a prostitute.

  203. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jed Mask: all men must remember is that NO ONE can truly “force you away” from your own flesh ‘n blood children: not your children’s mother(s), society, government, etc.

    Are you a troll?

    Unless you’re Superman, and bullets bounce off your chest, the government CAN “force you away” from your children.

  204. BillyS says:

    Jed,

    An armed state can do many immoral things. Do you really believe the problem in the former USSR was that men didn’t stand up against the mechanisms enough? You were quite separated from your family if you got shipped to Siberia without them or simply shot.

    Stephanie,

    I doubt that is Dalrock’s focus, but the landscape has changed. God does heal, but many of these people were showmen, not truly exercising God’s healing. God is not a performer, which goes against modern American desires.

    The counterbalance of fire and brimstone preaching only tells people they are going to hell with no hope is just as bad as the “God is your Buddy!” preaching that is so widespread today. Neither fully portray the heart of God.

    Though men get a lot more preaching that will call them (directly or indirectly) scum in many formats. You haven’t seen that because you are a woman and are used to only uplifting messages is my bet.

  205. Opus says:

    The reference above to House of the Rising Sun which was of course at least, around here, a No 1. hit for The Animals – much longer than most singles then and so different from the standard fare – set me thinking just how indifferent I am and indeed was to most British pop music of that time. I have never despite a moderate record collection ever bought a disc by The Beatles, The Stones, The Who or any of the others who pack out your stadiums, What I liked was American music. It was not just that the lyrics seemed to refer to exotic places like Albaquerque or strange things like the Levee whatever that may be or endless cross-country bus or train rides but your performers struck me and still strike me as simply better. Elvis of course but Johnny Rivers, Jay (both of them – of the Americans) and Jan and Dead are all well represented in my library of recorded music.

  206. info says:

    Russia was armed to the teeth before the soviet union came to power. But because the white russian army failed in strategy and tactics. And the Western Powers didnt really help either doing it only half heartedly.

    Those same gun owners were not able to stand firm against the organized violence of the soviet union.

    Owning guns is no guarantee of victory. But simply allowing organized resistance. Holding on the guns does little if strategy and tactics are failures.

  207. Anonymous Reader says:

    info
    Russia was armed to the teeth before the soviet union came to power

    False.

  208. CSI says:

    …The little girl fell backwards into her mother’s arms and her lameness was cured. Does this type still exist or have they all been replaced with mealy-mouthed, supplicating, hand -wringing pastors who can’t praise the women in their congregations enough?

    I’m sure they still exist, you see them on Sunday morning TV or on Youtube etc. if you look hard enough. Although such miraculous cures like the one you mentioned would mostly be staged wouldn’t they?

  209. CSI says:

    Ha, they’d all be staged of course.

  210. info says:

    @AR

    Show me.

  211. Liz says:

    Break down of top military spending countries from 1914-2018

  212. Oscar says:

    When you’ve fought in war, you start evaluating other men differently. You start asking yourself; would I want to fight this guy? Would I want this guy by my side in combat?

    Having actually fought insurgents, I’ve formed the opinion that your average American redneck would be a far more dangerous insurgent on his home turf than the Taliban are on theirs, and the Taliban are far more dangerous than the insurgents I fought in Iraq.

    Actually, my respect for the insurgents I’ve fought ranks in the following order:

    1. The Haqani Network (eastern Afghanistan)
    2. The Taliban
    3, The Madhi Army
    4. Iraqi Sunnis led by former Iraqi officers
    5. Iraqi Sunnis

    I suspect that the average American redneck would rank above all of them, if pushed to that point.

    You know who I’d REALLY hate to fight on their home turf? Cajuns. Them dudes is crazy, and swamps suck.

  213. Spike says:

    Oscar:
    Re: “Mothers tell your children…”
    It makes interesting reading. The plaintiff is left saying a series of “If I’d knowns…”.
    Well, here’s some things that they should know, since the porn industry is way older than they are:
    -It’s the sleaziest industry out there, bar none. That’s a no-brainer.
    -If you lie down with a sleazy,mangy dog, you’ll get up with fleas
    -It’s an exploitative industry. It says so on many of its’ own products
    -In the era of the Internet and social media OF COURSE a pic of you is going to fly around the world at the speed of light.
    -OF COURSE you are going to lose control of it.
    -You could have taken a summer job at your local cafe and been a waitress. Pull a lot of shifts and you’ll get your cash the honest way.
    -You chose NOT to work hard, so you forfeited your future

    It’s been said here before: IF women can’t make sensible, reasonable choices, then maybe the Saudi Arabians have a point. Women shouldn’t be allowed out un-escorted. They shouldn’t be allowed to pick their own partners. They should be forced to marry early. They should not be allowed to drive a car, or have a job with a degree of responsibility. Needless to say, there is no point in an education for them.

  214. Red Pill Christianity says:

    `

  215. Red Pill Christianity says:

    info says: Those same gun owners were not able to stand firm against the organized violence of the soviet union. Owning guns is no guarantee of victory. But simply allowing organized resistance. Holding on the guns does little if strategy and tactics are failures.

    Info, the sad reality is the early 20th century Progressives knew exactly what they were doing when they orchestrated WWI, the most pointless and dumb war in almost all of human history. Their goal was achieved by destabilizing the Russian Empire and causing its collapse, bankrupting Germany, and destroying the Ottoman Empire as collateral damage (probably the only good outcome from WWI was ending that Islamic genocidal sh!thole empire).

    When the Soviet Union began its rise to power, the Western powers promised and then abandoned the counter-Communists, just as they did in the Bay of Pigs invasion in the 60s.

    The Russian population was overwhelmingly in FAVOR of the end of the Russian Empire, just as Cubans were mostly in favor of ending the “oppressive” regime of dictator Fulgencio Bautista. Just as Venezuelans overwhelmingly (legitimately) elected Chavez then Maduro over and over again until they became dictators. China, same deal, Western powers weakened after WWII allowed Mao to take power from a corrupt Western-style China.

    China, Soviet Union, and Cuba all got Communist dictatorships that made 1930s Germany look like a pleasure cruise.

    Very few groups could topple a violent totalitarian regime like the Soviet Union once it is ESTABLISHED in power. That is why Bay of Pigs lack of support by JFK was such a failure, when a corrupt and weak Castor would have fallen easily. That is why you never let it come to power in the first place or topple it early on. Gun ownership is critical to the prevention of a totalitarian state from coming to power. Without gun ownership, there is zero resistance.

    Another thing to think about. Unlike later-stage Cuba or the Soviet Union or even Germany in the 1930s after disarmament, America, in the other hand, is a 50/50 country today. Deeply divided. There is no “overwhelmingly majority” in favor of one side or the other. In all of these other totalitarian regimes, there was large majority support for totalitarianism under the banner of freedom. Not the case in America, a hyper-polarized country right down the middle.

    One wildcard America has that the other these other totalitarian countries did not have: a large, mistreated, ignored, mostly Conservative ex-Military population with extensive combat experience. And tons of anger. And the Left largely counting on immigrants who are here to suck off the blood of the country and give nothing in return. The instant trouble arises, they get out of Dodge and leave. You think these parasites come here to settle down or “improve their communities?” LOL They will leave if SHTF, even before then. They have zero allegiance to America. They only have allegiance to a political party giving them welfare, the Demoncrats, and once checks stop clearing and “remisos the effetivo” (cash remittances) stop to their home countries, they will bail. These are parasites, they only stay around while they can extract benefits from the host.

    Without these foreign parasitic voters, the most numerous enemy are weak, pampered, un-trained, unarmed, un-supplied city-dwelling 105lbs soyboy Betas wearing make-up and carrying “man bags” (purses). These lazy cucks cannot walk a mile in uniform while holding a supply backpack if they had to. Typical coastal city “male” today (either these wimps or weak and grossly obese lazy types from the ghettos):

    If you are afraid of these guys and cannot handle them, I don’t know what to tell you.
    You are probably doomed anyway.

    I am afraid of even slapping such “men” in the face… afraid of killing them accidentally. These guys are more fragile than BBW form the ghetto, I kid you not. They are pitiful. They are pathetic.

    How many days worth of food or emergency supplies does NYC has? Seriously, 6.8 million people in main city area with virtually no living space to store food, generators, water, MREs… how many days if middle America cuts off supplies? There will be more crying than resistance from these people.

  216. BillyS says:

    I have a bag I carry primarily my tablet and battery support in along with other things. I suppose that makes me a soy boy in your view RPC!

    Not I care. I am a geek and want my tablet. I find the bag useful and easy to carry most times.

  217. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Oscar says:Off Topic: The Other McCain admonishes parents to warn their daughters about the modern “House of the Rising Sun”.

    Oscar, the problem is that most Western women today want everything handed to them in a silver platter. I am not that old, I am not even thirty-freakin’ eight years old, even though I sometimes I feel like I grew in the past millennia when I talk about the 1990s or even early 2000s. I told a guy I worked with about how fun it was to fly or walk your relatives into the door of the airplane and they LAUGHED at me, though I was tricking them. They have no idea what it was like to grow up in a pre-9/11 America.

    Think back about the 1990s… how many cute girls from your local high school or community college did you see working fast food or at the local grocery store as a cashier? Or worked at Blockbuster, the local AMC theater, as a waitress or hostess, the local mall, or at a daycare after school? Tons! They were everywhere, even my local Walmart had some cute high school girls stocking shelves. I was always on the prowl because I just never knew when I was gonna land a date just walking around a store or ordering food.

    Think about the 2000s… then think about today. Not many cute HS or even college freshmen age girls work these jobs anymore.

    This generation of young women think life should be like the Kardashian, where their father hands them millions in inheritance and they become famous by releasing their own homemade sextape and then they marry a rich music or sports star. They wanna live like millionaires without any effort.

    This is why InstaGram “models” (translation: pr0stitutes) are everywhere now, like LITERALLY everywhere on that site. That girl from Salt Lake City Mackenzie Lueck that was killed by that middle-aged Nigerian was working as a h00ker in a “SugahDaddy” site! That is why “Dubai Porta-Potties” is the ticket to fast cash by the hottest 10s you see out there (translation: do unspeakably disgusting stuff with rich sultans – for a guide: ReturnOfKings.com/57833/do-women-become-irreparably-damaged-after-allowing-arab-princes-to-defecate-on-them ).

    It is all about fast cash. These girls want to put zero effort into self-improvement or into having a husband or a job or even an education. It is instant, easy money and instant gratification.

    Roosh did a review of “HotGirlsWanted” documentary that you are talking about and the fact that middle class (and above) young American women as young as 18 would be willing to fly to another city for a couple hundred bucks to be hammered by some dude in the rectum ON CAMERA. It shows you the levels of depravity our society today.

    RooshV.com/the-documentary-hot-girls-wanted-shows-the-destructiveness-of-porn

    They do not do this to survive or buy food or pay rent, like they do in the streets of Mumbai or the poorest street-teens of Odessa or in the poverty Brazilian favelas. Oh no, these are well-cared for American young women who do this because they are self-described wh0res, they want “be thug life”. They wanna be street. If it is quick cash, hey I am in!

    Just look around you. How many young pretty/cute young women work retail or waiting tables or at a fast food place? Parents spoil their daughters and they grow up in a corrupt culture of self-pleasure and instant gratification. When they do not get what they want, they turn into “modeling” online. The ones that cannot cut in “modeling” try to marry some dumb guy with a good-paying job to exploit him and enslave him via divorce after humiliating and cheating on him.

    This is why marriage is a suicide pact men make with themselves today is not going to continue, not in the scale we have seen even in the Gen X couples. It is going down to the 15% that can afford the risk. Marriage seems like the worst idea possible for men today, unless they are trust-fund millionaires that can keep their Kardashian fantasy going forever.

    Even then, these women are likely to always be dissatisfied, no matter what. Makes me think of Queen Vashti of Persia, later replaced by Esther. She, like most women, can never be truly satisfied, even being queen of a vast and wealthy entire empire.

    It is getting that bad, dude. Anyone surprised by this is not living in the same planet everyone else is or totally blue-pilling every morning before breakfast! lol

  218. Novaseeker says:

    That girl from Salt Lake City Mackenzie Lueck that was killed by that middle-aged Nigerian was working as a h00ker in a “SugahDaddy” site!

    Yeah, that’s a big, big thing now. I think most people over 30 have no idea what is going on with it, because it is so new, but the participation rates in sugaring are quite staggering:

    https://www.fox29.com/news/temple-upenn-among-colleges-with-most-sugar-babies-report

    Yes, that’s 729 sugar babies from UPenn — an Ivy League school. Certainly the higher numbers from the Philly schools, as compared with PSA (middle of nowhere) and Pitt (less money in that city) have to do with the presence of moneyed guys on the mainline who can be “Sugar Daddies” and pay these girls an “allowance” to be hookers-on-call-by-another-name for them, but the participation rate is still staggering.

    Technology plays a big role here, just like it did with the spread of porn use. It simply wasn’t the case 10 years ago that ~700 girls from Penn were having sex on the regular with much older men for cash/gifts. A few? Sure. But without the infrastructure that technology provides in terms of making it “easy” to do, very few would participate. Once the technology is there, however, you can see that the appetite for participation in pay-for-play is not low among young women — again, these are not girls in “dire straits” by any means, most of the girls at Penn are upper middle class girls who are well taken care of by their actual Daddies. There’s something else going on — the thrill, the transgression, the freedom, etc. In any case, the “sugar world” is huge now, and it’s happening on an almost under-the-radar basis for most people who are above a certain age.

  219. Oscar says:

    @ Spike

    IF women can’t make sensible, reasonable choices, then maybe the Saudi Arabians have a point.

    That’s what gets me. These girls claim that they “couldn’t have known”. So, they admit they’re too foolish to make reasonable decisions, but if anyone were to suggest that these girls remain under their fathers’ authority until marriage, the person making that suggestion would be condemned as a woman hater.

    @ Red Pill Christianity

    Think about the 2000s… then think about today. Not many cute HS or even college freshmen age girls work these jobs anymore.

    Far fewer teenagers work at all these days, compared to previous generations. That’s a serious problem on multiple levels. I remember looking at my first paycheck at 13, and being shocked at the taxes taken out. That’s how you make a believer in free markets for life.

  220. feeriker says:

    It’s been said here before: IF women can’t make sensible, reasonable choices, then maybe the Saudi Arabians have a point.

    The Wahhabi Saudis do have a point. People forget that up until the first third of the 20th Century here in the West, to include the U.S., women were generally prohibited from, among other things, having bank accounts or owning property unless it was under the trusteeship or guardianship of their fathers or husbands. While there may no have been laws against them doing so, women travelling alone were very much frowned upon and any woman who did so was seen as a “mark” or “prey,” the assumption being – and one proven correct, as evidenced by the today’s feral women who travel alone- that any woman who does so is one of low moral character.

    Women shouldn’t be allowed out un-escorted. They shouldn’t be allowed to pick their own partners. They should be forced to marry early. They should not be allowed to drive a car, or have a job with a degree of responsibility. Needless to say, there is no point in an education for them.

    Given the undeniable rate at which western civilization has been deteriorating since women have been permitted to do all of these things and more, free of any moral restraint whatsoever, the case for reinstating hard patriarchy can’t be any stronger. Needless to say, the powers that gave women the freedom to unleash their inner feral slore knew exactly what they were doing; they WANTED to destroy western civilization and are determined to see that goal through. Thus any grassroots attempts at restoring the Patriarchy will be met with military-grade resistance by the Powers That Be.

  221. feministhater says:

    There’s your UMC right there. Wow! High class Dubai Toilets! That’s what they’re good for nowadays. And you, dear gentlemen, get to be married to that, pay for that and get no sex from that, all at the ripe age of 35…. and you must work your arse off and game it all that time to keep it from divorcing you and taking your children – that might not even be yours….. hahahahahahaha! Lord help me! That hilarity of the situation of the tradcon shills!

  222. Oscar says:

    @ feeriker

    Let’s not get carried away complementing the Arabs. I’m back in the land of sand and sun, and it’s a good reminder of what shitholes these places are underneath the gleaming, petroleum-funded veneer. If Americans and Europeans hadn’t discovered their oil for them, designed and built their infrastructure for them, and paid them for the privilege, they’d still be living in tents, and killing each other over sheep.

  223. info says:

    @Red Pill Christianity
    One thing we must never do is underestimate enemies no matter how pathetic they seem. Remember that no matter how powerful we may be we are still mortal.

    People can get their shit together very quickly.

    Many militaries in the past was defeated by underestimating their enemies. Including outside and obscure forces that may make a huge difference.

    Remember the Reds actually won the war.

  224. BillyS says:

    I am not convinced TPTB wanted western civilization to fall. I think that was a byproduct. They wanted a society they could better control and an unstable one fits that goal far better. The other is merely acceptable damage.

  225. ZMAN says:

    @feministhater
    @redpillchristianity

    http://tagyoursponsor.com/

    Here is the website that has been cataloging all of the Instagram models who are actually prostitutes/sugar babies w/e. These women get flown out to middle east countries by arab sheiks/oil rich or other places around the world by wealthy men to engage in the most depraved acts like literally getting shit on, having objects stuffed into their vaginas/anuses, and get gangbanged by dozens of men.

    This is the reality of Western Women: totally degenerate, dysfunctional, narcissistic, depressed, and totally unfit to be anything other than a couple of holes to warm up a penis in and even then you don’t want to risk it due to the underlying physical harm from STDS that will come to you.

    May God have mercy on our souls.

  226. Anon says:

    Meh. I always said globalization was going to correct the power imbalance between men and women in the Anglosphere West vs. the rest of the world. The thing about Arab Sheikhs flying sluts out is just a manifestation of that.

    How could this imbalance NOT correct?

  227. Oscar says:

    Since this thread has slowed down, and someone above mentioned mountain biking, here’s some totally rad footage from Red Bull. No spandex in sight (except for the bike bunnies).

  228. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    feeriker: until the first third of the 20th Century here in the West … women were generally prohibited from, among other things, having bank accounts or owning property unless it was under the trusteeship or guardianship of their fathers or husbands. … women travelling alone were very much frowned upon and any woman who did so was seen as a “mark” or “prey,” the assumption being … that any woman who does so is one of low moral character.

    I keep recommending the novels of George Gissing, an Englishman who published in the 1880s to 1900s. Gissing had a keen eye for the social changes of his time, in law and finances and courtship and marriage, and incorporated them into his novels.

    In New Grub Street a woman inherits a large sum of money. It is hers, rather than her husband’s, and she is pleased with the recently passed law that made it so. Another young, unmarried woman inherits money, and her father must cajole her to use it, as he has no authority over the money, though his daughter still lives at home.

    Gissing is regarded today as an early feminist, yet he perfectly understood the feral nature of women, and his novels are unsparing and unsentimental in his portrayal of women, and in men’s tendency to pedestalize women.

  229. Opus says:

    I had a look at the link to the link which if one can believe it informs that there are no less than three million college females in the United States now acting as Sugar Babies. The average age of Sugar Babies is twenty six and the average age of the sugar daddies is forty one – which fairly nearly equals that old idea that a man should ‘marry’ someone half his age plus seven years.

    Given the now late average age of marriage and a woman’s preference for older men it is hardly surprising that women no longer, one assumes, virgins and somewhat in debt from college loans, might, if they have the looks and figure provide service for certain discreet gentlemen . A former next door neighbour of mine used to do just that. She had a good figure and every week or two a much younger but always a different male would visit her and leave in the morning. You will of course want to know whether I was one of her customers. It is true I slept with her, once, but that was before she moved in next door and no money or gift changed hands – I had no idea then of her part-time employment. My neighbour was not a Common Prostitute. A Common Prostitute is a woman who will exchange sex for money with any man who has the reddies. My neighbour like the SugarBabies was more discerning. A Prostitute yes but not a Common one.

    How common is this? I know a woman who back in the day was ‘to die for’ but she always played hard to get with every man. She never married. She still had an amazing figure and was, I knew, poor and always encouraging me to buy her stuff – for myself but I always thought that would not be the end of it. So, I suggested to her that she turn tricks with me in some fashion though not PinV. I was merely interested to see whether she would agree to do so or not. She agreed but said that she should not come to my place (where she had been on occasion) but we should go to an out of town hotel. It never happened I know not why but it is inteersting to me to see what she was prepared to do for what would I think have been a low four figure sum – that was my idea anyway.

  230. Oscar says:

    Daughters receiving an inheritance from their father is Biblical.

    Numbers 27:1 Then came the daughters of Zelophehad the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, from the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph; and these were the names of his daughters: Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milcah, and Tirzah. 2 And they stood before Moses, before Eleazar the priest, and before the leaders and all the congregation, by the doorway of the tabernacle of meeting, saying: 3 “Our father died in the wilderness; but he was not in the company of those who gathered together against the Lord, in company with Korah, but he died in his own sin; and he had no sons. 4 Why should the name of our father be removed[a] from among his family because he had no son? Give us a [b]possession among our father’s brothers.”

    5 So Moses brought their case before the Lord.

    6 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 7 “The daughters of Zelophehad speak what is right; you shall surely give them a possession of inheritance among their father’s brothers, and cause the inheritance of their father to pass to them. 8 And you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a man dies and has no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass to his daughter.”

  231. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Oscar

    Interesting red pill video clip. Mountain McBikeBoy has his hot girlfriend there, and she is pregnant with his child. What kind of BBBuck$ does a professional mountain biker make? Maybe plenty if he wins all the time but maybe squat if he doesn’t? How long will she stay if he doesn’t win? Or is she captivated by the “you could get killed doing this” lifestyle, win or lose?

    Those boys are classic death defying dare devils in the Evel Knievel tradition. Since you have the time (and who on a deployment doesn’t?), a more classic trials rider with his own outrageous skills:

    https://kottke.org/16/10/danny-macaskills-wee-day-out

  232. feeriker says:

    Let’s not get carried away complementing the Arabs

    By no means is my intention to complement the Arabs (spent much time in their part of the world, read, write, and speak their language; and am thoroughly familiar with their religion and culture). I’m merely repeating, in a roundabout way, the old adage “even a stopped clock is right twice each day.” The fact that some aspect of extremist Wahhabi Islam appeals at this point in time serves as an indication of just how desperately out of control and thoroughly broken is a key aspect of our own society.

  233. jbesuden says:

    Most states today either presume joint custody or decide custody based on the best interests of the child.

    The feds have cracked down on states financially persecuting payors/ fathers. The SCOTUS ruled that due process must be followed in child support.

  234. Anonymous Reader says:

    jbesuden
    Most states today either presume joint custody or decide custody based on the best interests of the child.

    Changes from “mother only” to joint custody has been obtained in some states – I do not know how many, and I wager you do not either. It is always an uphill fight against feminists and their Traditional Conservative sock-puppets.

    Where “bests interests of the child” always means “mother retains sole custody”, of course.

    The feds have cracked down on states financially persecuting payors/ fathers.

    I’m sure you have some evidence for this remarkable claim.

    The SCOTUS ruled that due process must be followed in child support.

    I’m sure that you can point to this ruling. Because no feminist would ever troll a manosphere site…

  235. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker

    Funny to read that article. I sat at a table in “grey mode” in a reading / coffee establishment in Philadelphia last year and listened with half an ear to the conversations around me, until I realized that something like a Sugar deal was going on a few feet away from me. The man was in his 30’s to maybe 40, the girl was in her 20’s and packaged very well. He looked like a tech-nerd, she was a model-wannabe. They probably thought they were being secret. In this case I do believe it was largely about money for her and sex for him, based on what I saw and heard. He was hiring a once / twice per month mistress.

    Back to the article — thrill, variety, secrets are all things that girls in their 20’s like. However based on observation I posit another factor: the hunger for masculinity as well. I keep seeing this in college aged and post college aged women, they really do want something other than the men around them…who have been brainwashed into Betahood since kindergarten.

    In any case, the “sugar world” is huge now, and it’s happening on an almost under-the-radar basis for most people who are above a certain age.

    Most of the modern world is not visible to most people over 40 – 50. This is what makes advice from the older-and-wiser oh so Traditional, Conservative set so annoying yet hilarious. They literally do not know what they are talking about, but that doesn’t stop them from pompously bloviating, making and enforcing policies, and generally blundering around like blind steers.

  236. Anonymous Reader says:

    @info
    This is not primarily a firearms site, nor is it primarily an RKBA site, nor is it a Russian / Soviet history site. So your attempt at trolling for attention fails. You should be more careful with your sources, since the Saker is unreliable and gunzines are notoriously bad sources for history.

    Nothing personal, but I refuse to clog up Dalrock’s comments with the equivalent of a year of upper division college history lecture.

  237. Scott says:

    Oscar-

    I remember on one of my deployments, we flew out of Ali Aselem (Kuwait). But we flew in from the states to Kuwait international, and were taken in buses to the AF base. Many things about those bus rides (I went back and fourth twice because of R&R). But the weirdest was as soon as you leave Kuwait City proper, its just sand. Every few miles or so, is a giant mud house/tent with a Mercedes in the “driveway.” Its like nomadic tribes with money.

    It was also weird that we were required to keep the blinds closed so the people wouldn’t know there were American soldiers in them.

    Because, 6 long white unmarked tour buses going 500 miles an hour down the freeway with black suburbans, light flashing as escort vehicles isn’t a giveaway.

  238. Scott says:

    Sorry, “many things about those bus rides were weird”

  239. Oscar says:

    @ Lost Patrol

    Interesting red pill video clip. Mountain McBikeBoy has his hot girlfriend there, and she is pregnant with his child. What kind of BBBuck$ does a professional mountain biker make? Maybe plenty if he wins all the time but maybe squat if he doesn’t? How long will she stay if he doesn’t win? Or is she captivated by the “you could get killed doing this” lifestyle, win or lose?

    Those boys are classic death defying dare devils in the Evel Knievel tradition.

    Yeah. Girls gravitate towards downhill mountain bikers for the same reasons they flock to motocross paddocks.

    Thanks for the trials video. That kind of skill just blows my mind. I’m happy to do a bunny hop or two.

    @ feeriker

    By no means is my intention to complement the Arabs (spent much time in their part of the world, read, write, and speak their language; and am thoroughly familiar with their religion and culture). I’m merely repeating, in a roundabout way, the old adage “even a stopped clock is right twice each day.” The fact that some aspect of extremist Wahhabi Islam appeals at this point in time serves as an indication of just how desperately out of control and thoroughly broken is a key aspect of our own society.

    Gotcha. I should’ve known. On a separate note, I’m impressed at your linguistic skills. Arabic is no joke to learn, especially in written form.

    @ Scott

    I’ve found that a good gauge of a people’s character is the amount of trash on the roads. Most people think that clean roads are a sign of good governance, but I think that’s backwards. I think it’s a sign of a conscientious people who don’t litter in the first place, and even go so far as to pick up other people’s litter. I think that collective conscientiousness results in good governance, not the other way around.

    Even in wealthy Arab petro-states, it’s common to see piles of trash all over the roads. That tells me that as soon as the petro-cash dries up, the scimitars will come out.

  240. Opus says:

    @Oscar

    Your above final paragraph rang a painful bell will me. I, as I often indicate live in a four apartment block with a communal patio. It is always tempting to make cultural allowances for the benefits of diversity but leaving trash everywhere even after speaking and in the kindest way seemed to have no affects upon the Phillipinos, the Tamals and one might have expected better from them, but no, the Polish were just as bad, if not worse. When two English couples moved in, I breathed a racist sigh of relief and since then the patio has been as it is meant to be. As you say it is not a question of government but of people. To his credit the sole remaining diverse representative from what we used to call The Gold Coast but now call Ghana (and thus the darkest in skin pigment) next door is no problem at all, indeed an excellent chap.

  241. Novaseeker says:

    However based on observation I posit another factor: the hunger for masculinity as well. I keep seeing this in college aged and post college aged women, they really do want something other than the men around them…who have been brainwashed into Betahood since kindergarten.

    Yeah, although there’s hardly something more un-masculine than being a 40-50 year old guy who is paying a 20-something for sex.

  242. Liz says:

    I know someone who lived in Kuwait for three years, in a residential “middle class” neighborhood.
    It was a 10,000 square foot house. That was standard for middle class. Along the road were all sorts of abandoned expensive sports cars that had been left in pristine condition to rot (no one steals there, the penalty is too high). Religious caste system there, the poor (wrong interpretation of Islam) by contrast had next to nothing, and at work (at the military facility) they ate on dirt floors with the newspaper spread out.
    When Iraq invaded, they opened the gates and just let them in (the Iraqis told them they were there for a military exercise). They blew a bunch of stuff up, killed a bunch of people and hung the wing commander’s body over the wall.

  243. Anonymous Reader says:

    Yeah, although there’s hardly something more un-masculine than being a 40-50 year old guy who is paying a 20-something for sex.

    Sure, unless it’s being a 20-something nu-male feminist with a manbun groveling on behalf of all men. Craft beard & open mouthed gape optional.

    Anyway, you’re writing from a male perspective. “Resources” can be masculine; women used to trade sex for mastadon meat, you know. If you look at the Sugar Baby thing as just another variation on “provider game”, it’s not so exotic. That doesn’t make it a good thing socially or at the personal level, but it isn’t something never seen before in human history.

    Just to churn things up a bit more, I wonder how many sugar babies come from divorced parents or single mothers? “Daddy issues” lurking in the hindbrain…

  244. Oscar says:

    @ Opus

    When two English couples moved in, I breathed a racist sigh of relief and since then the patio has been as it is meant to be. As you say it is not a question of government but of people. To his credit the sole remaining diverse representative from what we used to call The Gold Coast but now call Ghana (and thus the darkest in skin pigment) next door is no problem at all, indeed an excellent chap.

    It’s not really about race. It’s about culture, and often subculture.

    I live in a working class town in the American Midwest, and sadly, there are quite a few “white trash” (as they are colloquially known) type people around. And they are literally trashy. I have to clean up the road in front of my property frequently.

    And I’m the Central American immigrant.

    My family and I were poor immigrants in the US, but my mom frequently repeated something her mom taught her. “Your things don’t have to be expensive, but they should always be clean.” I noticed growing up that my peers who behaved that way escaped poverty, and the ones who didn’t never did.

  245. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Rueful Warrior, the new sci-fi thriller featuring kick-ass warrior women:

    From the press release:

    Sci-Fi short Rueful Warrior introduces British writer-director Mark Owen as a rising filmmaker of action cinema. This 15-minute short also brings strong women to the front of the fighting arena in a very action-packed futuristic thriller.

    “My vision in this film is focussed on proving that women can fight – not only fight, but match up against their male opponents. I wanted that to be very evident and the split gender reflects that,” says Mark Owen. “Although opportunities for women in action roles are still limited, things are slowly moving in the right direction,” he adds.

  246. drbeagle says:

    “Still, given the relatively large increases in fathers’ household work and decreased leisure following unilateral divorce laws, this research suggests that men, and fathers in particular, may behave strategically in response to changes in marital policy.”

    They see threatening to take a way a father’s children as a valid inducement to get him to do the dishes. And I’m guessing they see themselves as compassionate and caring individuals and not as the stormtroopers they are.

  247. thedeti says:

    Ben franklin wrote this:

    The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.

    Translation: Sure, women get old, but put a bag on her head and you can’t tell old and young women apart. Just turn off the lights and you’ll be fine. Plus, older women are better at sex than younger women.

    Also, keep in mind that in Franklin’s time, an “old woman” was in her late 30s.

  248. Joe says:

    I don’t understand the whole hypermagy thing. While I did own a little house built in the 50’s, so did she. She had a 4 year degree (which she finished in 3 years). I had no degree. I was making $11 an hour at the time, and my job wasn’t the most secure. In fact when our first was born, that week the defense company I was working for had a HUGE multi-billion $ contact cancelled. She doubled down on her coupon cutting and garage sale hunts. All while staying at home with the baby. Then she stood by me as I went back to school. While in school, we added another baby.
    I guess she just saw something in me, and I in her. And none of it had to do with money or “beta bucks”. For 2 years, we even drove a car with hundreds of hail dents in it because I was in school and we could not buy another one. It got hailed on and totaled and we bought it back for scrape value and replaced the windshields and drove it for 2 years. By the time we could buy another, we just got it to the junk yard and sold it to them.
    She could have had her pick of collected educated engineers or whatever. Before me, she went out with a dentist and a pilot. Plenty of $$ and prestige there. They could have provided her with an upper class lifestyle from the get go. She walked away from both of them.
    But instead she married me.
    I guess she just saw something in me.
    Sometimes, there is that indefinable something that draws people together that has no label.
    But whatever it was, it wasn’t money.
    We persevered, worked together, and built a very comfortable lifestyle. And we did it together with hard work and a very traditional lifestyle. With her praying like crazy for us all the way.

  249. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Hypermagy isn’t about women seeking wealthier men, but about seeking better men. Which woman don’t always define by wealth, but by tingles. Many women will leave a higher earning Boring Beta for a sexier Bad Boy.

    If what you say is true, about your wife preferring you to higher earning men, that suggests that you are more Alpha (give more tingles) than higher earning, but more boring, men.

  250. thedeti says:

    Joe:

    Every time you comment here it’s another version of

    “Gee whillikers, guys, I picked a woman who had some character waaaay back in the late 1970s/early 1980s, cuz I is so alfa. How come you can’t?”

    Ok, Joe. We get it. You’re an alpha stud and you picked a woman of great character and you’ve been together forever. We get it that you don’t understand what today’s young men are up against.

  251. feministhater says:

    “Gee whillikers, guys, I picked a woman who had some character waaaay back in the late 1970s/early 1980s, cuz I is so alfa. How come you can’t?”

    No, it’s even worse than that. He didn’t pick her at all. She literally did all the work, invited him over, cooked meals and made it perfectly known that she wanted him….

    What Joe says has no bearing on anything at all. It’s useless bunk. He just likes to rub it in your face whilst pretending that it’s all done to offer hope to men. Men that this will never, ever happen to. Men that shouldn’t be getting their hopes up.. a false hope is deadly and Joe lays it on heavy without a care in the world.

  252. Dale U says:

    @Joe
    Glad that you have a wife of noble character; that is excellent.
    My wife also has shown good character, although I had to travel to another continent to find such a woman. I do not envy the men trying to find a worthy wife from our western churches.

  253. feeriker says:

    @ Liz

    Religious caste system there, the poor (wrong interpretation of Islam) by contrast had next to nothing, and at work (at the military facility) they ate on dirt floors with the newspaper spread out.

    The “caste system” in the Gulf Arab countries isn’t religious; it’s racial/ethnic. The poor working class in those countries (e.g., Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar the Emirates) consists almost entirely of “Third Country” ex-pat nationals from impoverished countries like Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the Phillipines, etc. Many, if not most, are Muslims like the native Arabs, but are seen by the ruling Arab upper classes as inferior –indeed, almost subhuman– and are treated horribly as a result. In fact, they’re little better off than chattel slaves or work animals. It’s a disgraceful embarrassment, especially to Western interests doing business in these countries, but there is just far too much money at stake for human decency to be of any concern.

  254. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott up the thread
    It’s interesting you mention that about seeing people change. Reflecting on this I would say that in the aggregate I have seen most people stay basically the same. “Same” here is being used as a clinician does in a clinical setting.

    Perhaps we are looking at different samples. People you see in a clinical sense are outliers in the overall sense. I’m sure that someone with Bipolar Personality Disorder (BPD) or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) will be pretty much the same next year as they were last year, for example. What I see are more ordinary people who change over the course of a few years, in particular women who seemingly mutate from a happy, loving bride into a nagging, perpetually contentious MOM. Enough men in my social circle have gone through a version of the standard manosphere trial that it is not just single anecdotes. There are studies on this, but of course it is becoming a minefield to research, since anything that even whispers criticism of women as a group is increasingly forbidden.

    Anyway, here is an article I meant to point out to you last month:

    https://psmag.com/social-justice/kicking-methadone-johnny-winter-77162

    Johnny Winter was Edgar Winter’s brother, and it’s amazing he lived as long as he did. Not just because of the “better living through chemistry” aspect of his life, either. The suggestion in the article that addition might be a manifestation of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) behavior is probably quite radical even now.

    However this book is a few years old:
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23214265-the-biology-of-desire

    Biology of Desire is a useful book for anyone interested in habitual behavior, because of the concept of neuroplasticity coupled with dopamine. We get hits of dopamine from short term behaviors, and this can be a good thing or not at all good. However the older idea that the human brain is fully formed by 25 to 30 years old and there’s no plasticity after that turns out to be not quite true. Yeah, it’s harder to learn a new language at 40 but it is not impossible.

    It’s neuroplasticity that enables a man to slowly erase the negative habits he has and create new ones. It’s also what enables a woman to do the same. Neuroplasticity is the property of the human brain that makes saving a marriage even remotely possible. It’s that important.

  255. Liz says:

    Interesting feeriker, yeah I had a friend whose husband was stationed in Qatar for a couple of years. She’s Asian, and she really couldn’t go anywhere alone…not even with her three young sons. She would be followed and harassed pretty badly because she was Asian they assumed she was either a nanny or a prostitute.

  256. Minesweeper says:

    “I’m sure that someone with Bipolar Personality Disorder (BPD) or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)”

    BPD=Borderline Personality Disorder

  257. @Joe
    Pay no attention to the negative Nellies and moaning Minnies,I liked your post!

  258. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Minesweeper
    “Borderline”

    Thanks for the correction. Clearly I was insufficiently caffeinated.

  259. Minesweeper says:

    AR.Your welcome. The reality is, when faced with a bipolar or borderline. pick the bipolar, at least they are on a cycle.

    (Was married to a borderline, it was hell)

  260. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Like Russia, Hungary is none too keen toward gay propaganda:

    Hungarian MP calls for boycott of Coca-Cola over gay ad.

  261. American says:

    I’d love to see a major overhaul of the radical feminist body of familial law correcting the enormous imbalance with respect to men; however, that may not occur in our lifetimes. My advice is do not allow yourself to come under that punishing body of radical feminist law that transforms a free man into an indentured servant both before and after the divorce.

    Don’t marry them, don’t have their children, don’t cohabitate, and don’t enter into business relationships with them. Though you’ll still get taxed by the government to support immoral females and the children they procreate, at least you’ll be able to live your life free of those courts and the very real consequences they present backed up by the entire law enforcement and prison industrial complex of the United States of America. Live free of it.

    If you want sex, get a jar of Vaseline. If you want children, great! Hire a surrogate. At least you’ll get to keep them. Do yourself this favor. It is a gift which you can choose to give yourself. It’s biblical for a man to remain single and surrogacy is permitted. The jails are full of men the state incarcerated and issued criminal records to because they can’t pay females their “pound of flesh” after they left to have sex with other people. Don’t become one of them. I have observed many things here in Los Angeles over the past five decades, few of them good. I tell men they’re a statistic that doesn’t realize they’re a statistic and they look at me funny. Later, after it happens to them, they don’t look at me funny anymore. Reality can be a hard teacher.

  262. Minesweeper says:

    @American, “If you want sex, get a jar of Vaseline”.

    Woaw, this isnt a 70’s gay porn movie.

    Even Red Pill Christianity says : “When I was in a 2-year LTR with this girl I was engaged to, she decided to pull the “withholding sex” thing on me. I turned it on her, and started to rub off using a Tenga device all the time.”

    There are other options these days.

  263. info says:

    @AR

    You dont need the clog up the comment section. Simply direct me to a link where I can read up on the topic which contains info on how well armed the russians were prior to the bolshevik take over. And if I am convinced I will change my mind.

Please see the comment policy linked from the top menu.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.