The marriage marketplace connection to China’s ghost cities.

Way back in 2011 I wrote an off topic post on China’s ghost cities.  With the current trade war with China I’ve been watching some youtube videos to try to get a better understanding of what is going on with China’s economy.  One thing I learned is that the infamous ghost cities aren’t merely a product of central planning gone wrong.  There is a strong speculative component to the phenomenon, as the apartments in the empty buildings are being purchased for astronomical prices by highly leveraged chinese citizens, especially chinese men who are looking to signal their suitability to marry by owning “property”.  I put property in quotes because what they are typically buying is an unfinished (bare concrete) apartment in a building on land leased from the government for 70 years.

As the video above explains, not all “ghost cities”remain empty forever.  At times the speculation pays off and eventually the buildings are used for their intended purpose.  But even here the nature of the arrangement is quite odd from a foreigner’s perspective.  South African expat youtuber SerpentZA explains what this looks like in Shenzhen below:

SerpentZA and a colleague share more thoughts on the bubble here:

Whenever contemplating a bubble, I always keep the famous Keynes quote in mind:

Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

On the larger topic of the trade war, I found this video by SerpentZA helpful:

And this one as well:

 

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173 Responses to The marriage marketplace connection to China’s ghost cities.

  1. Nick M says:

    Many Eastern European women or, I don’t know, poor Asian women would be thrilled to be either wives or surrogates for those guys.

    The Chinee guys need to stop being blueballed by their girls.

  2. David J. says:

    What a surprise — a one-child policy with forced abortions and sterilizations has negative consequences for your country.

  3. Hugh Mann says:

    Still, a “housing crisis” of fifty million empty homes (enough for 5% of the population) is a lot better than a UK or US “housing crisis” where it’s hard to afford a family home on average wages.

    I was doing some UK stats the other day – from 1997 to 2017 real median male wages decreased 3%, but real house prices increased 140%. All that printed “quantitative easing” has to end up somewhere.

  4. David,

    “has negative consequences for your country.”

    Under that policy, China has been one of the top economic success stories in history.

    Time will tell is which system – India, with unconstrained population growth – or China, where govt policy broke the demographic boom that accompanies industrialization.

  5. About the China doomsters, and specifically about its “Ghost Cities”

    (1) People in the West have predicted China’s imminent bust for 20+ years. In *2001*, attorney Goron G. Chang became a famous pundit with his book “The Coming Collapse in China”: – which said that the collapse had already begun. He is still quoted as an expert saying (wait for it) China will collapse really really soon.

    (2) China’s “ghost cities”

    in 2007, stories about those began to appear in America (easily seen using Google’s time field). They became commonplace in the next few years. A *decade* later, people still point to those as a signal of an imminent bust.

    Boom – bust cycles are an inherent aspect of free markets. They are easy to simulate in classroom exercises. They last a few years, depending on the length of the capital & construction cycle supporting them (agricultural cycles are brief; mining cycles are long). They don’t last decades. Whatever is happening in China, that’s not it.

  6. Otto says:

    Off topic, but for those of you drinking coconut water, because it’s healthier, you need to be wary of the packaging.

    http://www.arthurhaines.com/blog/2014/6/4/coconut-water-and-its-green-packaging

    Taking a critical look at the packaging, the Tetra Pak is a container that uses paper (cardboard) to create a sturdy box to hold the liquid. But of course, paper is not waterproof. So, this container uses several extremely thin layers of plastic, adhesive, and (frequently) aluminum to water-proof the container and preserve the contents. Studies show that the plastic used does leach endocrine-disrupting chemicals into the liquid. In fact, a study (conducted in Germany) showed that one kind of Tetra Pak leached more estrogen-like compounds than do plastic water bottles made from Polyethylene Terephthalate (#1 plastic). Xenoestrogens, like those leaching from plastic, can adversely affect health in many ways, including decreased fertility, interruption of hormone balance and menstrual cycles, sexual dysfunction, feminization of young males, damage to DNA, and cancer. Before you leap to the conclusion that coconut water (or any other liquid) is safer from aluminum cans, please realize that this type of container also uses a thin polymer lining to prevent the liquid from reacting with the metal can, a lining that also leaches endocrine-disrupting and cancer-causing chemicals.

  7. Anon says:

    China : They build things 10 years BEFORE they are needed.
    California : They build things 20 years AFTER they are needed.

    All things considered, China’s method, while imperfect, is the better of these two.

    China : If you build it, they will come (eventually)
    California : If you don’t build it, they will hopefully go away.

  8. Otto says:

    Time will tell is which system – India, with unconstrained population growth – or China, where govt policy broke the demographic boom that accompanies industrialization.

    India sends its best and brightest overseas. China keeps them at home. That’s one major difference.

    China (like Japan) will need to automate to make up for its labor shortage. Of course, once automation becomes common, China’s advantage of having a virtual slave-labor force disappears.

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sorry, Dalrock, I don’t see much to convince me that real estate speculation in China is all that connected to the Chinese marriage marketplace. There is a fair amount of RE speculation in British Columbia by Chinese people just for a start, and what they are buying is always finished out.

    There is an excess of men in younger cohorts in China. It remains to be seen how that will play out:
    *Increased social acceptance of homosxuality
    * Excess male population shipped off to large scale projects. Not the Great Wall, but the new Silk Road as well as Africa
    * Importation of women from other parts of Asia such as Viet Nam, the Philippines, Thailand, etc.
    * Some combination of the above.

    Another option that has been used in human history is not so good: War and conquest.

  10. vfm7916 says:

    @AR

    You left off the most important one.

    War.

  11. David J. says:

    @Larry: I don’t know whether China’s economic success can be attributed to its one-child policy rather than to other factors. But I don’t think you can call China’s economy a success when whatever gains it has achieved were at the expense of (among other things) mass forced murder, along with massive cheating (e.g., intellectual property theft), ridiculous pollution, and the massive problems China still faces. $7,500 average annual salary? Big deal. Families pooling their money so that one (male) member of the family can buy 2-3 overpriced, shoddy, empty, short-term “houses”? All just to supposedly improve the overwhelmingly negative odds of acquiring a wife (negative odds caused solely by the tyrannical government)? Wouldn’t China’s economy be even stronger if those extended families could use their money for things that actually benefit them and actually contribute something useful rather than illusory make-work projects?

    I also don’t think the India/China comparison is apt. India’s economic growth is severely hampered by its internal religious strife (including tolerance of religious violence in many areas) and its (religious) caste system. Instead of India as the example of “unconstrained population growth,” use the United States. There’s no government mandated one-child policy here either. We do have obscene numbers of voluntary abortions; our economy would be even stronger if those weren’t happening.

  12. Anon says:

    We do have obscene numbers of voluntary abortions; our economy would be even stronger if those weren’t happening.

    Are you sure? Or are those missing people from demographically less-productive groups?

    Plus, remember that cuckservatives worsened the situation further by deciding that the way to reduce abortions is to punish the man, and thus created the super-oppressive CS regime, which incentivizes pregnancy trickery by the woman (cuckservatives see this as a feature, not a bug). All things considered, abortion is better than enslavement of the father.

  13. vfm7916 says:

    An estimated 1/3 of a generational cohort aborted does not all come from less productive groups. It’s far more proportionate to populations within that 1974 to 1980 period, and those were far more in the “productive” category. Naturally this is offset by immivasion, which is again a feature, not a bug.

  14. David J. says:

    Abortion is murder for the convenience of one or both parents. It’s not better than any alternative.

  15. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    Another option that has been used in human history is not so good: War and conquest.

    That’s certainly the tried-and-true method. Almost every culture was polygamous at some point. Polygamy results in older, wealthier, more powerful men hoarding wives and concubines, while younger, poorer, less powerful men go without.

    What does a king do with a population of restless, horny young men with no prospects? Send them to war. They either win, and come home with the enemy’s women, or lose and die. Either way; problem “solved”.

    Then again, they could just send them to Africa.

    https://qz.com/217597/how-a-million-chinese-migrants-are-building-a-new-empire-in-africa/

    “I have been bringing my children here,” he said. “My older son, my younger son, eventually my daughter. I’m taking them out of school in China and bringing them all here. Within the next ten or so years we need to raise enough money, and then if my son has a lot of offspring with local girls—my two sons, in fact, if they’ve had lots of children—well, what do the children become! Are they Chinese or Mozambicans?”

    Hao told me his older son already had a live-in African girlfriend. Then he proceeded to answer his own question. “The mothers are Mozambicans, but the land will be within our family. Do you get it! This means that because the children will be Mozambicans they can’t treat us as foreigners. If need be we can even put the property in their name, protectively, but it will remain ours. It will be in my clan.”

    It’s a fascinating article, if you have the time.

  16. Frank K says:

    Still, a “housing crisis” of fifty million empty homes (enough for 5% of the population) is a lot better than a UK or US “housing crisis” where it’s hard to afford a family home on average wages.

    From what I have read, the housing bubble is very frothy in China and housing in the major cities (where the good jobs are) is utterly unaffordable,

    The housing/real estate bubble is a global phenomenon. And by global standards it is more affordable in the US (though still unaffordable) than in most of the industrialized world. In many places a home can easily cost 10+ average wage when it should cost 2-3 years salary. And yes, there are locales in the US where prices are 10x the local wage.

  17. Pingback: The marriage marketplace connection to China’s ghost cities. | Reaction Times

  18. Otto says:

    @Oscar,

    That’s a situation that would help both the native Africans and the Chinese immigrants.

    The Chinese, if nothing else, are successful where ever they go. Africa needs an influx of people to break their old, unsuccessful, cultural practices.

    The only question is: will the Chinese government attempt to control the areas somehow.

  19. Otto says:

    China’s Looming Crisis: A Shrinking Population

    “Chinese academics recently delivered a stark warning to the country’s leaders: China is facing its most precipitous decline in population in decades, setting the stage for potential demographic, economic and even political crises in the near future.”

    And now I hear the problem will become even worse, as young men are leaving the country for Africa, because it’s the only way to obtain a wife.

    I do remember seeing a lecture on YouTube about a year ago, where the speaker was predicting China would have problems maintaining its status as a world power due to its shrinking population.

  20. Anon says:

    A slightly shrinking population which may only become significant 20+ years from now is not a major concern.

    The surplus of housing is not inappropriate given the high amount of economic growth still expect to occur in China. People going from hand-made huts to apartments is still ongoing.

    Contrast that with the housing crisis in California, due to deliberate underproduction of housing.

  21. Liz says:

    Thanks for this topic and the videos, Dalrock. I’ve only seen the first two (but I will view the rest later, bandwidth is scarce in these har mountains).
    I wonder how many people extolling the virtues of China have ever visited this country? Ever lived in Asia at all? The second video mirrors my observations (though it has been a number of years since I live in Asia and visited China) about shoddy workmanship. For that matter, it mirrors my observations of Chinese imported products from the last 20+ years.
    One thing that wasn’t addressed was air quality.
    This is a serious business. When we lived in South Korea we only needed gas masks in the event of a gas attack from the DPRK. Otherwise the air was clean enough not to wear a mask. Now folks who are stationed there have to wear masks often just on the day to day, to protect them from the pollution coming from China. This was a big issue with military because only recently they were permitted to wear masks…now they are due to the health concerns.
    So…If I lived in China, I’d buy into those ghost town cities just to get away from the smog.

  22. Liz says:

    Typo above:
    This was a big issue with military because only recently they were NOT permitted to wear masks…now they are due to the health concerns.
    Military people weren’t permitted to have a mask on while wearing their uniform, while their kids and spouse had masks on their faces (along with everyone else) due to the air pollution coming in from China.

  23. Liz says:

    OT response: Thanks for the coconut water post, Otto.
    I use this stuff every day in my husband’s shakes. I’ll watch out for the packaging from now on.

  24. Anonymous Reader says:

    Note the two graphics near the tail of the article.

    http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/china-population/

    Also consider this side effect of the one-child policy:
    https://infogalactic.com/info/Little_Emperor_Syndrome

  25. Anon says:

    Brad Wilcucks is at it again. Remember, his sinecure requires him to write one article per year :

    Marriage Promotes Responsible Fatherhood.

  26. Spike says:

    A timely piece, Dalrock. In Australia, we have “ghost apartments”.
    This is where greedy developer barons have teamed up with Chinese builders, cutting Australian unionised builders out, and developed tower after tower of apartments. The ground floor of the apartment is retail, so that it can be zoned ”commercial” thus avoiding private licensed builders. The finished products are supposed to sell for about $1.6M AUD.

    Now we have 5 buildings with mortgaged tenants in them evacuated due to danger of imminent collapse; others with water free-falling down inner walls when it rains; others with flammable cladding. Some are 3-5 years old with cement coming loose, tiles falling off as well as plumbing, gas and electrical problems.

    If no one bought them, it would be great. But the danger is that our housing shortage leads to desperate buyers and rash decisions. Often these apartments are bought off-plan. Then tenants end up with a mortgage larger than the dwelling is worth – a stranded asset.

    Chinese women? They have become so entitled that even in a seller’s market due to selective abortion, no one wants them. They are called “Leftover Women”

  27. BillyS says:

    Anyone who could say China’s abortion policy had any merit does not really understand abortion. Murder is not a solid foundation for anything.

    You have far too limited a perspective Larry. You need to study China a bit more if you really think killing off female children was the cause for all their prosperity.

    Try to review the Cultural Revolution as well and find the foolishness they escaped from.

    Another point on abortion in the US: Assuming that those children would all have been born without abortion is foolish as well. Abortion is being used as birth control in many/most cases. Many of the conceptions that happened would not have happened without abortion in the background. It has enabled a lot of loose sexual behavior that would have been at least partially constrained.

    Many or even most of the women would not have participated as much in such sexual activity if they knew a baby would be a strong possibility. I have heard very few touting the “lost consumers” acknowledge this fact.

  28. gdgm+ says:

    Small typo in the first paragraph of the OP – “phenominon” should be “phenomenon”.

    [D: Thanks!]

  29. white says:

    Don’t forget the Chinese law passed to protect men’s property rights from their wives in the event of divorce. Men actually have a rational reason in China to signal provider status.

    Coincidentally this law was passed in……. 2011:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8857708/Chinas-divorce-rule-dubbed-Law-that-makes-men-laugh-and-women-cry.html

  30. purge187 says:

    It’s happening everywhere:

    https://www.insider.com/record-low-birth-rates-could-cause-extinction-demographic-time-bomb-2019-8?fbclid=IwAR3-YVqmxTINd1OxRWib9xAoEG1vzPy1561WQTx4Z4Gy6TD-kuryZs5grmA

    Does anyone else think that this might be “divine intervention”? I fully expect the sh*t to hit the fan in my lifetime, and children would be the greatest victims.

    Just a thought.

  31. Nick M says:

    Anon on August 19, 2019 at 5:27 pm
    Brad Wilcucks is at it again. Remember, his sinecure requires him to write one article per year :

    Marriage Promotes Responsible Fatherhood.

    Apparently, it doesn’t promote responsible motherhood, non promiscuity for women, women holding tight to their vows.

  32. What’s needed is a good ole fashion world war and the commensurate halving of the male population that typically follows.
    Extreme male scarcity.
    If you are serious about ushering back in the patriarchy and witness feminism disappear like a whisper on a construction site, accept no substitutes.

    But yeah, sorry, fellas.
    For that to come to fruition, most of us “nice guys” will find ourselves be floating down a river, bleeding out with our throats slashed or having become machine-gunned fertilizer.

    Good morning to you!

  33. Gunner Q says:

    purge187 @ 8:04 am:
    “Does anyone else think that this might be “divine intervention”? I fully expect the sh*t to hit the fan in my lifetime, and children would be the greatest victims.”

    Kinda yes, but Phase 2 of that kind of thinking is Isaiah 57:1-3. God killing us directly to prevent our suffering.

  34. Frank K says:

    Murder is not a solid foundation for anything.

    Agreed. If anyone is expendable, everyone is expendable.

    It is my understanding that 1 billion children have been aborted worldwide. Truly, a chilling fact. I fear that ConstrainedLocus is probably right, a day of reckoning awaits in the not too distant future, one where mass slaughter that is unimaginable will purge the Earth. What else could happen when the overwhelming majority embraces sin and calls it good? At this point all we can really do is beg God for mercy.

  35. Cane Caldo says:

    Thanks for introducing me to SerpertZA’s channel. I especially liked the video on the trade war. It has never made sense to me that it’s cheaper to ship EVERY product 10,000 miles than it is to make ANY locally. To his formulation I would add the greed of American corporate overlords for more cheap crap from China to sell to us plebs. I can imagine how tariffs are confusing to some Chinese. Their one party Communist leaders are playing ball with our one party Corporatocracy; so why are they being bullied?

    There is a strong speculative component to the phenomenon, as the apartments in the empty buildings are being purchased for astronomical prices by highly leveraged chinese citizens, especially chinese men who are looking to signal their suitability to marry by owning “property”.

    This is missing an important component according to his video; which is that it is families who are investing in their sons as suitable. Many individuals are sacrificing to generate each man’s signal that he’s a good husband. This is 180 degrees from the bootstrap culture America. This topic alone is worthy of a lot of thought, if I could be bothered.

    More generally: I noticed that all the city-dwellers are fashioned after American styles. Everything is a copy of our culture except their DNA, food, and language. If the reversed happened and 30 years from now everything including my grandchildren looked Chinese except the cheeseburgers, I’d be angry or demoralized or both. Our success (I suppose) at exporting American culture has deadened us to the pain of our own subversion. We made most the world look like Americans, and now we can’t tell that America overflows with non-Americans and anti-Americans. Those jumping our borders and invading our cities wear t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers just like us. Build The Wall.

  36. Anonymous Reader says:

    constrainedlocus
    What’s needed is a good ole fashion world war and the commensurate halving of the male population that typically follows.

    That is both ignorant and evil. Especially evil.

  37. info says:

    @VFM7916
    China hasnt been very expansionist in its history so its more likely chinese men marrying eastern european or south asian women.

    Given the shortage of men in eastern europe.

  38. Arfee says:

    OT

    Women have a problem and it’s up to men to fix it—- example # 99,577

    https://fortune.com/2019/08/20/girls-who-code-male-allies-workplace/

  39. Otto says:

    Another real life example of Dalrock’s Law of Feminism (Feminism is the assertion that men are evil and naturally want to harm women, followed by pleas to men to solve all of women’s problems).

    https://fortune.com/2019/08/20/girls-who-code-male-allies-workplace/

  40. Novaseeker says:

    This is missing an important component according to his video; which is that it is families who are investing in their sons as suitable. Many individuals are sacrificing to generate each man’s signal that he’s a good husband. This is 180 degrees from the bootstrap culture America. This topic alone is worthy of a lot of thought, if I could be bothered.

    More generally: I noticed that all the city-dwellers are fashioned after American styles. Everything is a copy of our culture except their DNA, food, and language.

    Right. Until it isn’t, though.

    They may wear t-shirts and eat at KFC, but their culture is a hundred thousand miles away from ours in that it is communal/familial and not individualist. They may ape individualist clothing and food and so on, but the base of the culture is very alien to ours and it doesn’t seem like t-shirts and McDonald’s are changing that much.

    The point which you make about the apartments is a case in point. The law keeping the apartment from being distributed to wives is that this is very much like stealing from the husband’s family, because they all chipped in to pay for it. It’s an entirely different model — not H v W but H-family v W-family. That is entirely absent in the West, and especially in the US, which is the apex of the extreme individualist model.

  41. Cane Caldo says:

    @Nova

    I’m not sure I understand your comment as you responded to two separate and unrelated points from mine, yet you related them.

    In the part of my comment which began with, “More generally”, I’m talking about superficial culture. You’re kind of poo-pooing that, but I believe these superficial bits of culture are important, and I bet the Chinese do too. I bet it causes resent. “Hey, we wear your clothes. The least you can do is keep tariffs off our cheap products.” But even if the Chinese don’t care which style clothes they wear, my train of thought was how difficult it is to distinguish a non-American from an American when everyone apes the superficial parts of your culture.

    It’s an entirely different model — not H v W but H-family v W-family. That is entirely absent in the West, and especially in the US, which is the apex of the extreme individualist model.

    Agreed.

  42. Opus says:

    Everything Chinese is above my pay grade, but what intrigued me was Dalrock’s somewhat dismissive referencing that these apartments are purchased on seventy year leases. I was wondering therefore firstly what the average length of an American lease might be (I am assuming you have them but then you have that strange concept unknown to your Mother country namely the Condominium). Is it as in England Ninety Nine Years? Hong Kong was leased from China by Great Britain for a term of Ninety Nine Years. Is the leasing of property an Anglo Concept?

  43. Novaseeker says:

    I was wondering therefore firstly what the average length of an American lease might be (I am assuming you have them but then you have that strange concept unknown to your Mother country namely the Condominium). Is it as in England Ninety Nine Yeatingrs? Hong Kong was leased from China by Great Britain for a term of Ninety Nine Years. Is the leasing of property an Anglo Concept?

    Most of our property is owned in fee simple. Not leased. Exceptions are things like convention centers, sports stadiums, public housing and that sort of thing — usually those have what we call a “ground lease” which has a long term — 75-99 years. But most real estate even in places like Manhattan and Los Angeles is owned fee simple. Leasing in the US, other than the ground leases of quasi-public places, is either commercial or residential, and the terms are much shorter.

  44. Novaseeker says:

    I believe these superficial bits of culture are important, and I bet the Chinese do too. I bet it causes resent. “Hey, we wear your clothes. The least you can do is keep tariffs off our cheap products.”

    Ah, I see. Yes, that could cause resentment on a basic level. I tend to think based on discussions I have had with actual Chinese that the greater part of their resentment comes from our aircraft carriers being in the Taiwan Strait, and the idea they have that Asia only needs one superpower/Yankee-Go-Home. There really aren’t very many countries that are as nationalist as China is, in a popular sense, at least not currently.

    But even if the Chinese don’t care which style clothes they wear, my train of thought was how difficult it is to distinguish a non-American from an American when everyone apes the superficial parts of your culture.

    Oh that’s certainly true. It’s why, for example, the airside of an airport is basically the same everywhere on Earth. Xian, Des Moines, Tbilisi …. if you don’t squint to see the lettering, you could easily be anyplace and therefore no-place in particular.

  45. Emperor Constantine says:

    OT

    The Bronze Age Pervert tells us how to fight the machine:

  46. Liz says:

    Hard to understand the 70 year lease when nothing they make seems built to last.

  47. Scott says:

    More generally: I noticed that all the city-dwellers are fashioned after American styles. Everything is a copy of our culture except their DNA, food, and language. If the reversed happened and 30 years from now everything including my grandchildren looked Chinese except the cheeseburgers, I’d be angry or demoralized or both. Our success (I suppose) at exporting American culture has deadened us to the pain of our own subversion. We made most the world look like Americans, and now we can’t tell that America overflows with non-Americans and anti-Americans. Those jumping our borders and invading our cities wear t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers just like us. Build The Wall.

    This is also either a by-product of, or (one of) the causes of the unworkability of a purely civic nation. Everyone is an “American” if they wear American style clothes, watch American made movies, listen to the music, and dream of coming here.

    Even movies made my a European, about 500 years into the future (The Fifth Element) LOOK American,while trying to seem “multi-cultural.” Because, you know the guys who burn the parasites off the plane are rastafairan Jamaicans and the dude who brings Dallas his food is a Chinese dude with a hover-junk.

    Who knows? maybe it will work. A world-wide love-fest culture. With a Serb chick (Jojovich) who saves us from the pure evil planet thing.

  48. Liz says:

    China has had a big impact on our culture too.

  49. Opus says:

    Fee Simple means if my memory holds correct the Freehold. In England, at least, the last thing you want is what is called Flying Freehold, what you need is a lease, of say ninety-nine years with mutually enforcable covenants. Am I to understand that all those offices and apartments in the skyscrapers and apartment blocks of Manhattan and Chicago are all Freehold? Perhaps I have missed the point. Either way from my point of view (and of course I do not know what the small print says) a seventy year lease looks entirely reasonable – most business leases in England are for twenty one years with rent payable on the quarter days.

    As a matter of curiosity: in England all land is said to be owned by the Crown and all anyone ever owns is an estate in the land; Freehold, Leasehold, or an Under Lease (then of course there are licenses and squatting – and what the hell was Copyhold, I forget are all merely estates in the land. Who then in America is the land said ultimately to be owned by – surely not ‘The People’ – or does the concept not even arise. From whom do you take your estate in the land you purchase (and I do not mean the Vendor).

  50. Novaseeker says:

    Opus — I’m off to a meeting so I will respond more fully later. In the US you as a private owner hold title to the land, in theory as long as you are current in your taxes — the government ultimately owns the land, but we don’t have a “long lease” or “ground lease” system in most places — most property is held in fee title. Anyway, more later.

  51. Opus says:

    @Novaseeker

    I await with the greatest curiosity your longer explanation. In the meanwhile I am somewhat between perplexed and horrified. I appreciate that each of your fifty States may well do things differently from each other.

    If America can have drifted so far from its Common Law roots (as I take it in this matter it has – although of course not every State was once a British colony) I can only wonder what the Chinese of over one hundred years ago thought when Her Majesty’s government proposed to the Chinese a Ninety-Nine Year lease of Hong Kong (the terms of which Briton complied with – even if we did not leave the place in 1997 in exactly the same state as we entered it – not that China has been complaining about that – until recently). I then wonder whether the whole idea of Leasehold was picked up by China from Hong Kong – certainly then, not from the United States, I guess I will never know.

    This sunny afternoon I have again been reading Jefferson and about him. It amazes me that for so a man so eloquent in writing and for a Court Lawyer at that he was apparently hopeless at speaking in public – where is Barack Obama when you need him.

  52. Frank K says:

    They may wear t-shirts and eat at KFC, but their culture is a hundred thousand miles away from ours in that it is communal/familial and not individualist. .

    My employer has a Beijing campus and we occasionally get visitors at my Rocky Mountain West campus. While they (especially the women) dress “western” they wear styles and colors that the locals here do not, and they stand out like a sore thumb.

  53. Frank K says:

    I appreciate that each of your fifty States may well do things differently from each other.

    This is especially true in the area of property taxation. In some states it can be unbelievably onerous: say paying $800+ a month property tax on a house worth $300,000. Many of those states also have a bug state income tax bill too This is where Trump’s recent Federal Income Tax reform hit some raw nerves. One can deduct state income and property taxes from one’s Federally taxable income, lower the Federal bill, and the new law put a $10,000 limit on that deduction. This impacted people in highly taxed states like California, Illinois, New York and others.

    My annual property tax bill is 0.5%, In my locale, a $300K house would have a ~ $120 per month property tax bill.

    There is a steady exodus of people out of high tax states to low tax states, especially states with no state income tax. Some states have no sales tax (there is no national sales tax).

    But as for property ownership, I can’t think of any state where you lease the land under your house from the state for a defined period of time. I do suppose that in super high tax states that the huge annual property tax bill could be perceived as a lease payment into perpetuity.

  54. Frank K says:

    I does amaze me that the Chinese system works at all, given the levels of corruption and distrust.

    The whole thing about smuggling baby formula because no one trusts the domestic product to be poison free is astounding. I have read stories about new high rise apartment buildings collapsing due to shoddy workmanship and bad materials.

  55. Novaseeker says:

    Opus —

    In the US a land “owner” has title in fee simple, subject to paying the taxes on the property — if you don’t pay the taxes on the property, in theory, after a long delinquency, you can lose your title to the property and the state can give/sell that title to someone else. But there is no long lease/ground lease system for *most* land. Exceptions are quasi-public lands like stadiums and the like, and some cities have portions where the City owns the land and has long term ground leases with the title holder, but that isn’t that common. So in English parlance, most land is held in freehold title here. As I say above, there are other ways that expensive real estate is held, such as through real estate investments trusts and the like, but those vehicles themselves hold fee simple title.

    We also have “covenants that run with the land” — they are built into the grant of title, such that you “take title subject to the covenants”. In the real estate world here, these are known as “CC&Rs” (covenants, conditions and restrictions), and they are very common. Most of those are put there by condominiums and home ownership associations to make sure residential and other owners don’t do crazy things with their land, contribute to common costs and so on, and of course there are zoning laws that apply to all land owners depending on how their property is zoned. But, again, it isn’t a lease — you can pass it on to your heirs, and they can to their heirs — it doesn’t expire in 99 years.

    Like I said above, office tenancies are actual leases and the terms are analogous to what you describe although sometimes somewhat longer (perhaps 30 years). Residential tenancies are normally for one year. The landlords in these cases will hold fee simple title, generally.

    Of course, as in England, most land is mortgaged as well. Real estate law is slightly different across the states as well as you’ve guessed.

  56. Opus says:

    I remain shocked.

    1. The Government own the land – yikes – is there any argument ever made that the land (of the original thirteen) is still owned by George the second his heirs and successors. Frankly I would have thought the ownership of the land should be vested in the Indians (tomahawk not curry).

    2. The government can confiscate your land if you fail to pay taxes – what the &*”% – an Englishman’s home is his castle and no way can Parliament steal it even if you fail to pay property of any taxes.

    3. Flying Freehold: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

    4. If I have understood aright, my penthouse suite off Central Park, Manhattan will not be mine and I will only rent from year to year. Even where I live there are apartments costing over One million Pounds Sterling which is even more in American Dollars – not mine – though.

    No wonder Dalrock did not much care for the Chinaman’s seventy Year lease. I think given British influence in China (Opium Wars, Chinese Gordon, 55 Days at Peking etc) the Chinese have merely created their latest knock off. It looks like the original but on closer inspection it isn’t (seventy years – I ask you – but perhaps that has more to do with Chines Numerology or the I Ching than our one year short of a ton length of lease which is equally arbitrary.

    My taxes in case any one is interested which i pay to the local council amount to £106.00 per month for the ten months form April running through to and including January and two free months thereafter which is just over One Thousand Pounds Sterling a year (which includes a fifty per cent surcharge for being single). Let us not forget it was property taxes which effectively brought down Mrs Thatcher when she had the insane idea to charge everyone in the country whether they owned property or not exactly the same sum of money so that an au-pair like my then girlfriend was being turned into a criminal.

  57. There is a steady exodus of people out of high tax states to low tax states, especially states with no state income tax. Some states have no sales tax (there is no national sales tax).

    Best current examples of this are the massive exodus of businesses and personnel from California to Texas (Austin), Tennessee and Nevada due to massive state tax incentives for business (no corporate taxes due for 20 years?) and of course zero or very low state income taxes for employees (Texas 0%, Nevada 0%, Tennessee 6%) versus California (up to 12.3%).

    https://www.southstarcommunities.com/blog/companies-leave-california-bound-for-texas

    Many business leaders in CA warned Jerry Brown not to raise state income taxes in 2012. He didn’t listen, and neither did California voters. Californians actually supported higher income taxes instead of tax cuts. And then after 2012, all hell started to break lose.

    https://www.southstarcommunities.com/blog/companies-leave-california-bound-for-texas

    Bad thing is, Austin, Texas labor market is so white hot, a financial analyst in Orange County, CA would earn $50K to $65K per year in 2012. In Austin, you cannot find anyone decent for that anymore. And even if you did, well good luck hanging on to them.

    IMO, no case of net new “job creation” which Texas likes to brag about without any evidence.
    They just did some cattle rustling from other states and then branded them their own.
    But California and their citizens only have themselves to blame. This is just case of supposed “OMG that’s unforeseen!!” cause-and-effect from socialist contempt for business.

  58. Novaseeker says:

    If I have understood aright, my penthouse suite off Central Park, Manhattan will not be mine and I will only rent from year to year. Even where I live there are apartments costing over One million Pounds Sterling which is even more in American Dollars – not mine – though.

    No, Opus, many apartments, especially in desirable urban areas like Manhattan, are condominium units which are owned in title by the unit owners, while the common areas of the building are held jointly by all the owners of the individual units. The condominium rules are built partially into the title deed (which conveys both the unit title and the undivided shared interest in the common areas) and also there are separate condo agreements that the unit owners sign that govern the common areas, access rights, maintenance provision and cost sharing and so on. Generally you have to pay “condo fees”, which vary in amount but are not low for good places, and of course you’ll be paying the bank for the mortgage. It isn’t a flying freehold, as the UK considers it, as I understand it, because of the condo regime, whereby the owners of the units also are owners of the common building, whereas my understanding of a flying freehold is where someone owns the second floor, but not the rest of the building. That isn’t the case for a condominium ownership regime.

    In any case, there are other apartments in Manhattan that are rental units, and Manhattan also has “rent control” laws — see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_control_in_New_York — meaning that there are more than a few quite prime apartments that are rentals in Manhattan at very low rents relative to current levels.

  59. Frank K says:

    My taxes in case any one is interested which i pay to the local council amount to £106.00 per month for the ten months form April running through to and including January and two free months thereafter which is just over One Thousand Pounds Sterling a year (which includes a fifty per cent surcharge for being single)

    Property tax used to low across the US. Since most property taxes are a percentage of assessed value, the property bubble made the property tax soar. To add insult to injury many states also raised the tax rates, which results in obscene property taxes in quite a few states. Some states have no income tax (like Texas), but they usually make up for it with high property taxes.

    Colorado has an interesting approach. Some years ago, in response to rising property taxes voters amended the state constitution with the “Taxpayer Bill of Rights” (AKA TABOR). TABOR restricts spending at the state, county and municipal levels, only allowing it to grow as fast as inflation and population growth. Taxes can only be increased by plebiscite, which means pretty much never. The state is obligated to refund any taxes collected over the spending limit. That said, most communities vote to exempt sales tax collected (commonly called deBrucing), though the sales tax rate cannot be increased without voter approval. The local Democrats abhor TABOR and have been fighting tooth and nail for over two decaded to get it repealed. With Colorado’s changing demographics it’s only a question of time before that happens, and when that happens I expect property taxes will soar in Colorado.

  60. Frank K says:

    Anyway, with the new “State and local tax” (SALT) deduction limits people living in high taxation states are now also having to pay more Federal Income Tax. I have a hard time understanding why voters in other states haven’t enacted something like TABOR. The closest thing I can thing of is California’s Prop 13, and that only restricts property tax growth (to 2% a year).

    One of the Democrat presidential candidates (Yang) is proposing a 10% VAT to fund a Universal Basic Income of $1000 a month for everyone. A few years ago, at a dinner party, I told an elderly gentleman that in the UK sales tax (VAT) is 20%. His eyes almost popped out.

  61. Opus says:

    It is true: VAT payable on goods and services in Great Britain is indeed 20%

    I am intrigued that New York City has Rent Control laws. In England, Rent Control Laws were brought in after WW1 and had the effect of persuading potential Landlords to sell rather than let. The return was miserably low, they could not recover their property and thus had no incentive to make the property desirable to tenants. It was thus eventually virtually impossible to rent anything anywhere. One either had to buy which not many could afford especially when young. The solution was for girls to become pregnant. They would then be entitled to a Council House. In one of her better idea Mrs Thatcher rolled back the Rent Acts and now there is a thriving business in desirable letable properties. I hated the Rent Acts because I found them so arcane I had real difficulty remembering the law – or maybe I had a poor teacher. As with the minimum wage, the idea is motivated by kindness but I fear it has effects that were never intended and which in a free market do not occur.

    I am indebted to Nova and would only add that his second floor is our first (his first being our ground) so when an English person refers to the ffirst floor that person means the one above the ground floor.

  62. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Opus: The government can confiscate your land if you fail to pay taxes – what the &*”% – an Englishman’s home is his castle and no way can Parliament steal it even if you fail to pay property of any taxes.

    But Englishmen are forbidden to protect their castles. Any thug can break in, and if an Englishman uses a gun on the thug, it’s the Englishman who goes to jail.

    In many U.S. states, if you shoot and kill a burglar breaking in at night, the courts respond, “Good shot.”

  63. Lost Patrol says:

    Nova, Opus, and Frank K have explained the nearly inexplicable about taxes/land/home/apartment/flat/condo ownership to include internationally. I almost understand it now.

    Out here in the wide open there is another factor at play which I wonder how it shakes out in China though I can hazard a guess. And that is mineral rights.

    Many people across the width and breadth of the USA own only the literal surface (and some part of the column of air above it) of “their” land, while someone else actually owns everything beneath said surface. I’m talking about the stuff that dreams are made of such as oil, gas, and believe it or not sand and gravel.

    You absolutely may not deny access across your property to said owner of mineral rights, who is free to erect structures and build roads for extracting same, the proceeds of which will go into his (or her if she has played her cards right or been a proper little heiress) pocket.

    The rich get richer.

  64. Rum says:

    In Texas, policy in the 19th century was to shift nearly all state owned land into private hands, along with very robust titles. Indeed, the large majority of its 270,000 sq miles are deeded to private persons. There was never any federal land in Texas because Texas was never a territory of the US. The idea was that social health was increased when ordinary people owned the land under where they lived and earned their living.. Happily, that included minerals above and the sky above by default. That has not stopped silly people from selling those separately thru the years. (Not recommended.)
    These days, a common arrangement with petroleum production is that 25% of the well head price (ie gross, not net) goes directly to the landowner. Same with wind generation.
    These facts should explain a great deal about how places like Texas differ from The Olde World.

  65. Colojohn says:

    When people exit the high-cost states for lower-cost states, they unfortunately bring their liberal voting patterns with them. Meaning their new states are likely to morph into something akin to the states they fled.

  66. Frank K says:

    Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

    This makes me think of the fact that we are entering the age of negative interest rates, which I believe is happening to finance budget deficits around the globe. US Treasuries are a notable holdout so far, but many are predicting that T-bills will soon be entering the negative interest rate zone as well.

    What does this mean for savers if the money you deposit in your savings account actual shrinks? Or imagine mortgages with negative interest rates? If you have a mortgage with a negative interest rate? I did a what if calculation: if you borrow 400K for 30 years @ -1% interest, you would only make a total of $342K in payments on the loan and it would be paid off.

    Strange times.

  67. Anonymous Reader says:

    Colojohn
    When people exit the high-cost states for lower-cost states

    Colorado Front Range is a case in point. 20 – 30 years of Cali – > Colo migration has changed things.

  68. Frank K says:

    Colorado Front Range is a case in point. 20 – 30 years of Cali – > Colo migration has changed things.

    Indeed, Colorado elected an open homosexual to the governorship. In my opinion it’s been a long time since Colorado was a red state. I’d dare say that even 30 years ago it was Purple. Now it’s almost Blue. Its only saving grace is that Coloradans are tightwads. In the same election that sent Jared Polis to the governor’s mansion, two bond issues on the ballot to improve roads went down in flames. They might like homo politicos and legal marijuana here, but voters still hate taxes, at least for now.

    A few years ago a ballot issue for a statewide single payer medical insurance didn’t even get 30% of the vote, IIRC. Even my uber progressive coworkers admitted that they didn’t want to give up their employer paid private insurance for a possibly underfunded state system that would probably have to ration healthcare. I think many voters understood that the single payer system would have been a magnet for out of state people who wouldn’t contribute much if anything to it.

  69. BillyS says:

    That is what makes me concerned about Texas, where I live now. Too many Californicators moving in, especially to Austin.

  70. BillyS says:

    Legal MJ is not a conservative/liberal issue. I despise the stuff myself but the “drug war” is far more damaging to society.

  71. feeriker says:

    Colojohn
    When people exit the high-cost states for lower-cost states

    Colorado Front Range is a case in point. 20 – 30 years of Cali – > Colo migration has changed things.

    We’re suffering “California contamination” here in Arizona, too. I’ve reached the point where when I see a car with California license plates, I want to run it off the road.

  72. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Red states are turning blue, but not visa versa. It’s not just that liberals are moving into conservative states. It’s that liberal voters are increasing in number (largely due to massive Third World immigration, legal and illegal), thus increasing liberal voting blocs in both red and blue states.

    Plus, the culture — media and universities — are pushing younger generations ever further to the left, with no pushback to the right.

  73. Colojohn says:

    Anonymous Reader wrote “Colorado Front Range is a case in point. 20 – 30 years of Cali – > Colo migration has changed things.”

    I too live on the Front Range. Fortunately, Colorado Springs has held out and our local environment isn’t overrun by the homeless. Denver, not so much as you correctly noted.

  74. Colojohn says:

    Wish we could edit …
    Meant to add after “our local environment isn’t overrun by the homeless” “and leftist voters/politicians.”

  75. c matt says:

    land leased from the government for 70 years.

    At least that is better than the US version – property taxes. Which is essentially a land lease in perpetuity, with variable payments set at the whim of the government (“market value” x tax rate).

  76. They’re now moving from “mentoring” to “sponsoring”:
    https://hbr.org/2019/08/a-lack-of-sponsorship-is-keeping-women-from-advancing-into-leadership

    Mentor = provide advice, support and coaching
    Strategizer = share “insider information” about advancing (gossip?), getting ahead
    Connector = make introductions to influential people, talk her up to your peers (actively promote her)
    Opportunity giver = provide high visibility opportunity (give her a new role or project)
    Advocate = fight for her to get a promotion

    This is really fascinating. Especially given the current all out gender war in schools, the media, politics and the work place itself.

    No where are the benefits to the sponsors made clear. What’s in it for him except high legal risk, and that this could potentially backfire.

    It’s interesting also how so many of these social justice advocate/psychologists in the workplace continue to fail to grasp the notion of competitive advantage, personal self-interest, Machiavellianism, merit and reward.

  77. Frank K says:

    It’s interesting also how so many of these social justice advocate/psychologists in the workplace continue to fail to grasp the notion of competitive advantage, personal self-interest, Machiavellianism, merit and reward.

    SJW’s just assume that all corporations are infallible, unstoppable money making machines, which run on autopilot, and therefore the girls deserve their share of the spoils. Never mind that the business landscape is littered with the corpses of businesses that were turned over to inept incompetents who drove them into the ground.

  78. Frank K says:

    At least that is better than the US version – property taxes. Which is essentially a land lease in perpetuity, with variable payments set at the whim of the government (“market value” x tax rate).

    And in most states the payments are truly at the whims of the state and counties. It’s up, up and away. And don’t complain, because “it’s for the children”. When I see how much some people pay, as in >$10,000 a year for a very ordinary house, I can’t believe there hasn’t been a taxpayer revolt, though I suppose that many are revolting with their feet as they leave for cheaper pastures.

    I periodically am contacted by headhunters for jobs in those high tax states The pay is at best marginally more than I am paid at my current job, and is more than offset by the higher cost of living and stratospheric taxes. Of course, the Indian headhunter, who is probably calling from Bangalore, has no understanding of the hard sell he is trying to make. Why shouldn’t I want to move to California, Illinois or New York? They’re in America, right? And I would say that about 90% of the headhunters are Indians these days, at least in my field.

  79. @Frank K
    There seems to also be a wider theme here.
    That women in the world of work largely consider the majority of their male colleagues to be incompetent.

    They really do believe that most men in the world of work do not advance in their careers and economic status due to devotion of time (putting in the hours), endeavor, competitiveness, competence and performance. They instead believe that men advance because other men of greater status and power are nominating, supporting and advocating only for male advancement.

    This is surprising in the respect that more girls today than ever before are engaged in competitive sports – swimming, basketball, softball, soccer, volleyball. In that experience they don’t all earn a spot in the starting lineup. Some of them suit up but don’t even play or rotate in the games.
    They all know and experience first hand what it’s like to not win the starting job or position, and some also experience first hand what it is like to lose a starting role to a better, more talented, more productive player. They see the boys teams practicing as well nearby, and they are smart enough to know that the same competitive dynamics apply to them, perhaps even more so and on a more elevated scale physically and mentally.

    So these girls graduate high school, go to college, enter the workplace and then somehow connect the dots differently – that there is some anti-woman conspiracy, rather than women working less full-time, working less hours, taking more time off and more sick leave, and being less industrious, competitive and productive than their colleagues (male or female)?

  80. Jed Mask says:

    @Nick M and @David J.

    The United States of America and the United Nations did great evil in introducing their wicked forced sterilization practices against the Chinese and Indian peoples in the 20th century…

    So it’s not like the Western world is “guiltless” of it’s wicked, sneaky sin of manipulation.

    Let’s not be *ignorant* of world history.

    ~ Bro. Jed

  81. Nick M says:

    Jed Mask on August 22, 2019 at 12:55 pm
    @Nick M and @David J.

    The United States of America and the United Nations did great evil in introducing their wicked forced sterilization practices against the Chinese and Indian peoples in the 20th century…

    So it’s not like the Western world is “guiltless” of it’s wicked, sneaky sin of manipulation.

    Let’s not be *ignorant* of world history.

    ~ Bro. Jed

    You look like the ignorant one to me. I have nothing to do with that discussion of yours. Let me out of it.

  82. Frank K says:

    They really do believe that most men in the world of work do not advance in their careers and economic status due to devotion of time (putting in the hours), endeavor, competitiveness, competence and performance. They instead believe that men advance because other men of greater status and power are nominating, supporting and advocating only for male advancement.

    We had a mass layoff at work two years ago. The slackers, who did the least amount of work possible, were the ones who were let go, both men and women. The ones who were kept were the ones who made sure work got done on time. And to be honest, it wasn’t a Herculean task to get projects completed on time, it just meant that there were periods when you had to burn the midnight oil, which got noticed.

    That said, it helps to have an advocate who is aware of your hard work, but if you’re a slacker no one will advocate for you, for the simple reason that you will make them look bad.

  83. BillyS says:

    Jed Mask,

    The Chinese forced sterilization was home grown, in China. Study a bit better in the future.

  84. Frank K says:

    This is surprising in the respect that more girls today than ever before are engaged in competitive sports – swimming, basketball, softball, soccer, volleyball. In that experience they don’t all earn a spot in the starting lineup. Some of them suit up but don’t even play or rotate in the games.

    I saw an interesting trend when my son played competitive youth soccer. He played all the way through boys U18. What would happen once in a while was that they would play a team that had one or two girls on the squad. The unspoken agreement was that when they played a team like that, they would “go easy” on the girls. My son’s team refused to do so, and they would slide tackle the girls just as hard as the guys. The girls would leave the pitch in tears and the ref would remind the guys to go easy on the token girls and they would again refuse. By the second half the girls stayed on the bench (American youth soccer allows unlimited substitutions).

    What I also observed in competitive youth soccer was that the kids would be placed in a team/league at the level of their competence/skill. They had annual tryouts for the club, and players would get shuffled around based on how they did. So if you were weak you would be placed on a lower level team (maybe one of the “challenge” teams). Better players would get assigned to Premier or Elite level teams. But they all got to play. Teams could also get promoted or relegated based on their performance. My son’s team worked its way up from “Challenge” to “Premier.” And he would have to re earn his place on the team every year.

  85. @Jed Mask,
    China only has themselves to blame for both their own one child policy (which included sterilization of millions of abortions), as well as mass famine 1959-1963 caused by communist centrally planned agricultural policy blunders and an abject failure to allow foreign technology (basically 1920s basic irrigation pumps and harrows, and 19th century drainage methods/technology) to offset the natural disasters – namely the serious droughts and floods – that ravaged their country during this short period.

    India’s mass sterilization campaigns (vasectomies and tubal ligations) were also entirely home grown by Sanjay Ghandi, with the wholesale approval of his incompetent and nepotism-beneficiary Prime Minister mother. The compulsory sterilizations in India in the mid-late 1970s had nothing to do with American government policy or private corporate interests or intervention. Indians did it to themselves. As a result of this fiasco, one cannot even hold a rational discussion in India anymore about contraceptive use and family planning, etc.

    This is not that complex.
    Blaming outcomes on American imperialism, military and government interventions has its place.
    These are not examples of that.

  86. @Jed Mask,
    Discovering, experimenting, and sharing information about human sterilization and birth control is in no way the same as introducing it for application/use/implementation.

    Applying your logic and sequencing, it was the Germans, not the Americans, who bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshima with atomic weapons.

  87. Anonymous Reader says:

    constrainedlocus
    They instead believe that men advance because other men of greater status and power are nominating, supporting and advocating only for male advancement.

    In other words, they assume that men act like women. It’s projection of women’s known 4:1 ingroup preference onto men. This is why one can find feminists declaring that colleges where 60% of undergrads are female are finally getting closer to equality. Because 50% isn’t equal at all.

    We can look forward to more such projection by women, due to their inherent solipsism.

  88. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jed Mask
    The United States of America and the United Nations did great evil in introducing their wicked forced sterilization practices against the Chinese and Indian peoples in the 20th century…

    You are wrong. The one child policy in the People’s Republic of China was solely the creation of the Chinese Communist Party. I do not know enough about Indian policies to have an informed opinion.

  89. James K says:

    @Opus:

    The solution was for girls to become pregnant. They would then be entitled to a Council House.

    This was not the case until the late sixties, when local councils decided to put unmarried mothers at the top of the Housing List. This action was a response to Ken Loach’s 1966 agitprop “Cathy Come Home” (a TV drama about a homeless mother and child). The new policy worked as planned, while “unmarried mothers” were still stigmatised; but by the 1980s the stigma had faded away, and there was an huge increase in numbers of the now renamed “single mothers”, which displaced low-wage married couples from public housing. The State essentially outbid low-earning men as a provider, making marriage financially unviable, and destroying the two-parent family at the lower end of the income scale. This is the corrupting side-effect of politicians and bureaucrats trying to appear “nice”.

    Until the mid-1960s, when a British girl became pregnant and could not get the father to marry her, she would move to another town “to look after an elderly aunt”, in reality to live at a hostel where she would give birth and give up the child for adoption before returning home. This was brutal treatment for both the mothers and the children (and I have met one or two of them).

    Our modern social arrangements are less overtly brutal; but they harm many more people than the old system did (and I have met hundreds).

  90. Liz says:

    I do not know enough about Indian policies to have an informed opinion.
    Come on, obviously all you have to do is watch a youtube episode and you too can be an expert.
    I remember thinking having all this information at everyone’s fingertips in an instant would make them more informed than….say, going to the library. I was young and foolish then.

  91. Opus says:

    @James K

    I have often reflected that had I in my twenties placed my name – as a single male – on the Council House waiting list, that I would still be at the bottom of the list. I might also add that in the Sixties one never saw homeless people but by way of example I presently have an unfortunate man living rough by the entrance to my block – but I have never seen a female living rough. Where the Waterloo Imax is now situate was in the Eighties known as Cardboard City.

    Cathy Come Home was preceded by The L Shaped Room and He who Rides a Tiger and succeeded by Up the Junction and it amazes me that what was as you rightly say merely a television drama – although it should perhaps be remembered that in the days of just two television channels the audience for Cathy would have been much larger than it might be today – should have had the effect that it had. Reverends, and Right Reverends not to mention Members of Parliament (and my school teachers – but teachers are always champagne Marxists) – were ringing their hands over it and somehow as a fifteen year old boy and thus a male – it was my fault. Surely someone must have noticed that if you ease the shame of unmarried mothers you will produce more of it and that is of course what happened. By happenstance last night I watched an older Dragon’s Den where the budding entrepreneur was attempting to interest the Dragons in bespoke Condoms. He observed that half of all pregnancies are unwanted. One of the lady Dragons implied she always carried a pack of three around in her Handbag – what use could she have for a perfect fit. Slut.

    Personally, I preferred movies where no matter how casual or slutty the girls they did not become unmarried mothers – movies like Darling, or Girl on a Motorbike – or even Doctor Zhivago or Italian moves like Four Kinds of Love – ah those were the days at my local ABC and in black and white.

  92. @Anonymous Reader

    This is why one can find feminists declaring that colleges where 60% of undergrads are female are finally getting closer to equality. Because 50% isn’t equal at all.

    Since feminism asserts that all men are dangerous and want to harm all women, there is definitely a retributive component to feminism.

    They not only DO NOT want equality really.
    They want retribution, and any humiliation of men they can muster as well.
    Doesn’t matter if they have sons.
    In the minds of almost every woman you have ever known, there is an arrogant prick guy she once knew – a teacher, coach, a father, an ex boyfriend, a crush, ex husband – in her head living rent free whom she wants to see humiliated and defeated.
    This gets projected out by her at school, the world of work, the church and other relationships.
    She sees men getting punched in the balls in a tv show, talk show or a film and her eyes roll back in euphoria.

    But of course men developing physically and mentally more gradually and decisively, and getting a massive dose of the “hormone of the gods” (testosterone) – 20x as much as any woman would ever normally have at any point in time of her life – which increases his brain development, focus, aggressiveness, competitiveness, physique, dominance, etc. exponentially compared to her, and frankly blows the majority of women out of the water in academics, competition, and physical endeavors by age 19, this is where women start getting envious and pissed off at the unfairness of it all.

    It is so unfair!
    I agree. In fact, I will just say it. It is embarrassingly unfair.

  93. Athletic and Whitesplosive says:

    @Oscar

    “Hao told me his older son already had a live-in African girlfriend. Then he proceeded to answer his own question. ‘The mothers are Mozambicans, but the land will be within our family. Do you get it! This means that because the children will be Mozambicans they can’t treat us as foreigners. If need be we can even put the property in their name, protectively, but it will remain ours. It will be in my clan.'”

    So his genius plan is that Africans could never resent rich mixed foreigners holding land in their country because of legal citizenship and some sort of deluded 1 drop rule about what makes a “mozambiquan”? Hopefully this isn’t the attitude of most of the Chinese colonizers if China is depending on their success.

    @Otto

    200 years in America wasn’t enough to break the unsuccessful supposed “cultural practices” of Africans, nor was colonization and rule by the vastly more successful European nations, but Chinese colonization will surely do the trick! That or result in a predictable round of bloodletting of Chinese colonisers by Africans, or else the brutal repression and/or population replacement of Africans by the colonizers.

    The Chinese want African resources for their own gain, why pretend it’s some kind of humanitarian effort to educate Africans into proper living? It’s not and wouldn’t work if it was. The Africans whether they can run it or not have a right to their own countries and should be let alone, however it shakes out there’s no scenario where colonisers and Africans get along hunky dory.

  94. BillyS says:

    Liz,

    It is like writing a paper from the encyclopedia. Just as much basis in reality using someone else’s pre-eaten food.

  95. BillyS says:

    Athletic,

    The Chinese have little choice in this matter since they have so many more males than females in the younger generation due to the 1-child policy that even a few (surprisingly) here love.

  96. Otto says:

    “The Chinese have little choice in this matter since they have so many more males than females in the younger generation due to the 1-child policy that even a few (surprisingly) here love.”

    Ironically, by aborting many female children (which should horrify feminists), they have made the remaining females more valuable and powerful (which feminists would like).

    Breaking a few eggs to make an omelet. The female shortage may actually result in a female dominated society.

  97. Lost Patrol says:

    Off Topic:

    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/08/23/nbc-news-heterosexuality-is-just-not-working/

    “Women, on the other hand, are increasingly realizing not only that they don’t need heterosexuality, but that it also is often the bedrock of their global oppression.”

  98. Novaseeker says:

    Ironically, by aborting many female children (which should horrify feminists), they have made the remaining females more valuable and powerful (which feminists would like).

    In China this isn’t very clear-cut, because culturally in China women who are even a bit older (like late 20s/30) are considered “leftover women” and men who are more high quality don’t want to marry them — unlike the US, where quality men do marry such women, unless they are commenters in the manosphere. Also in China mate selection is very family-driven (see the above videos posted by Cane), there are “marriage markets” where parents seek out spouses for their adult children, and so on. It isn’t the West, period, so the SMV/MMV power dynamics play out differently because the entire culture around family and marriage is radically different than our situation where it’s almost 100% in the hands of the two individuals.

  99. Novaseeker says:

    “Women, on the other hand, are increasingly realizing not only that they don’t need heterosexuality, but that it also is often the bedrock of their global oppression.”

    And here we see that the radical lezfem separatist types are making a comeback from their rout in the 1970s. There really is nothing new under the sun. Sadly for them, though, as Cane once said, “women want the D”. Like 97% of them.

  100. Kevin Blackwell says:

    OT: Is there a way to track the course of crazy that’s been unleashed in the past decade?

    Philadelphia man dies by suicide after video goes viral of him defending relationship with trans girlfriend, friends say
    https://www.inquirer.com/news/maurice-willoughby-died-by-suicide-after-viral-video-defending-transgender-girlfriend-20190822.html

  101. info says:

    @Novaseeker

    Things like metoo is paving the way for prison like conditions for women to the advantage of radfems. By minimizing male contact and promoting homosocial conditions.

  102. BillyS says:

    Why would a man want a relationship with a man claiming to be a woman, even after surgery? The thought is so repulsive to me. I can see why a man might want another man (even if that is repulsive), but a man wanting a “woman” who was a man, why?

  103. Frank K says:

    Why would a man want a relationship with a man claiming to be a woman, even after surgery?

    It just goes to show the power of propaganda and brainwashing.

  104. Novaseeker says:

    Why would a man want a relationship with a man claiming to be a woman, even after surgery? The thought is so repulsive to me. I can see why a man might want another man (even if that is repulsive), but a man wanting a “woman” who was a man, why?

    This is guys who are actually bisexual but not honest with themselves about it. Straight men don’t do that. Gay men don’t do that. Bisexual men do, but often they tell themselves they are straight or gay.

  105. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Why would a man want a relationship with a man claiming to be a woman, even after surgery? The thought is so repulsive to me. I can see why a man might want another man (even if that is repulsive), but a man wanting a “woman” who was a man, why?

    Because – as a consequence for previous perversions – God has given him over to a depraved mind. See Romans 1. There’s no point in trying to understand the depraved mind. It’s incomprehensible. We need to learn to recognize it, not understand it.

  106. Lost Patrol says:

    Off Topic:

    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2019/08/23/nbc-news-heterosexuality-is-just-not-working/

    “Women, on the other hand, are increasingly realizing not only that they don’t need heterosexuality, but that it also is often the bedrock of their global oppression.”

    Speaking of lezfems, for your continued amazement I will add:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7390353/NASA-investigates-claims-astronaut-accessed-spouses-bank-account-space.html

    “Astronaut Anne McClain was accused of accessing her estranged wife Summer Worden’s bank account while she was in space”

    “Worden’s parents claim that McClain’s actions were part of a custody battle over her son, who she gave birth to a year before the couple were married”

  107. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Lost Patrol,

    I see one Lezzy is a NASA astronaut and Army Lt. Col. The other Lezzy is an Air Force intelligence officer.

    One can only guess how heavily burdened the U.S. military is with these these affirmative action cases, and how harmful their impact is on military effectiveness.

    I also note that the NASA Lezzy has accused the Air Force Intelligence Lezzy of assault, thus spinning her as the “husband” in the relationship (i.e., the one without any rights).

  108. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Why would a man want a relationship with a man claiming to be a woman, even after surgery? The thought is so repulsive to me. I can see why a man might want another man (even if that is repulsive), but a man wanting a “woman” who was a man, why?

    Desperation? It’s like prison rape. Some men burn so fiercely, they’ll take men if they can’t get women.

    I can’t imagine burning that fiercely. I think most men prefer celibacy to homosexuality. But not all.

    When I see a man with a tranny, I think, Couldn’t get a real woman, huh?

    Apart from the desperate, I suppose for some men it’s a really weird fetish.

  109. Opus says:

    @Red Pill Latecomer

    Men are capable of sexualising just about anything. and getting a buzz out of it. I am afraid therefore that I cannot agree with Novaseeker in that I just do not accept that there is such a thing as a Homosexual and thus it must follow that there is no such a thing as a Bisexual. Some men like fat women but that does not mean there is a biological category – lets call it – The Chubby Chaser. One cuts ones coat according to the amount of material available – otherwise we would none of us settle for anything less than a super model but that does not mean that there is a biological category of people who one might describe as plain-Jane Pear-shaped fans.

    Obviously! I have a lot more to say on this subject but this here and now is not the proper place. I realise that my view flies in the face of what everyone even those who see themselves as traditional or conservative and Christians accept as true. How can one fight against Homosexuality when one is half way towards acceptance of the lifestyle by acknowledging its existence as a biological category. I don’t. What I do recognise is weakness and more importantly predatory behaviour.

  110. BillyS says:

    Opus,

    Romans 1 clearly notes that homosexuality exists due to rejecting God as the Creator. I am not sure exactly what a “biological category” is, but some individuals clearly have such desires. I credit choices and sin, not “being born that way” as that fits reality, but it exists.

  111. Frank K says:

    I also note that the NASA Lezzy has accused the Air Force Intelligence Lezzy of assault, thus spinning her as the “husband” in the relationship (i.e., the one without any rights).

    I’m sure the Air Force Lesbo will fight back, claiming she is the “wife”

    One can only guess how heavily burdened the U.S. military is with these these affirmative action cases, and how harmful their impact is on military effectiveness.

    I’m not an expert, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that we’ve descended to effectiveness lows not seen since the Carter administration. I can only imagine how many women bail out (get pregnant) just before being deployed. How can you have an effective military when a large portion of your forces can bail out?

  112. Expat Philo says:

    Why “date” a man who has removed his member? The answer is obvious: he’s still a man. This means no shittesting and easy access to sex, coupled with the ability to lie to oneself about the nature of the relationship. The tranny is a woman, see, so dating the tranny makes one straight in the eyes of the public, but you get the…ah…benefits of dating another dude.

    Not to defend such depravity, mind you, just explain the mental gymnastics behind it.

  113. feeriker says:

    One can only guess how heavily burdened the U.S. military is with these these affirmative action cases, and how harmful their impact is on military effectiveness.

    Not nearly burdened enough, given that the U.S. armed forces are so far away from their true constitutional purpose that they shouldn’t exist at all. As long as the military is going to serve as a mercenary force for the glob-homo-bankster cartel, it can’t can degrade fast and completely enough for my taste. May we see MUCH more of this nonsense in the near and foreseeable future.

  114. feeriker says:

    That or result in a predictable round of bloodletting of Chinese colonisers by Africans, or else the brutal repression and/or population replacement of Africans by the colonizers.

    Given how the Chinese react to rebellion by their own, on their own soil, I cannot imagine that any act of violence against Chinese citizens in Africa would result in anything other than unrestrained massacre of Africans, especially given the low regard in which the Chinese hold them anyway.

  115. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Oh guys, not to throw water in the parade here, but Shenzhen is near Hong Kong and it is THE most prosperous city in China, hands down, in terms of tech, innovation, and good paying jobs for Chinese standards. They make a lot of stuff there, there are tons of jobs in Shenzhen, including electric-hybrid car maker BYD. It is NOT a “ghost town”.

    There are many “ghost towns” in China, but Shenzhen is not one of them.

    Shenzhen is also 1984.

    I have read Michael Pillsbury book called “100 year Marathon” a while back while traveling by air and Shenzhen is Silicone Valley minutes the homeless, the drugs, he rats, leftiwing insanity, and the regulations. Shenzhen is Silicone Valley minus the nightmare 3rd world country that is California. But it is also in China, so everything developed in Shenzhen is a free for all, so tech being developed there does so under no standards and no ethics. Devices that monitor people, AI that will be used for Chinese police state, Google helping arm the Chinese military to defeat us… I expect biotech that is highly unethical to grow in Shenzhen too. But the city is mainly a tech place.

    Thank God we have the great President in the last 100 years taking on China. These people are our enemies and every Dollar we sent to China is another bullet to shoot us with, another missile in a plane, and another tank on the road. These people are dangerous and we should do whatever we can to cut off supply routes with China and bring the jobs back to the USA or move them elsewhere. China is a global threat and that is why the SOBs at the UN loves their totalitarian system of govt wholeheartedly (called Agenda 21, where Chinese totalitarian model of central planning and a police state that monitors all) is recommended for global adherence, but using new powers to crush dissidents, enact insane Global Warming laws, and have central govt control every aspect of life, including population control.

  116. John James R. says:

    “As long as the military is going to serve as a mercenary force for the glob-homo-bankster cartel, it can’t can degrade fast and completely enough for my taste.”

    Thank you. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria…whose enemies are those again?

  117. John James R. says:

    “These people are our enemies and every Dollar we sent to China is another bullet to shoot us with, another missile in a plane, and another tank on the road. These people are dangerous”

    Have you ever visited?

  118. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Thank you. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria…whose enemies are those again?

    Israel’s?

    The secular regimes of Assad and (the late) Saddam Hussein treated Christians far better than does ISIS and Islamists. Fighting Assad, overthrowing Hussein, have destabilized the region (as Pat Buchanan predicted), flooding Europe with violent refugees and killing Arab Christians. Similarly, Muammar Gaddafi’s overthrow has opened Libya and its ports to African refugees flooding into Europe.

    Israel’s policy has long been to destabilize the region. To prevent strong, stable Arab regimes, and to prevent them from unifying into a pan-Arab bloc. Which is why Israel funds ISIS’s war against Assad, and (if some sources are accurate) funds Al Qaeda. Keep them fighting among themselves so they won’t threaten Israel.

    Israel’s policies are bad for Arab Christians. Bad for Europe. Bad for the U.S. But our politicians dare not say so, and our media won’t cover Israel with any honesty.

  119. BillyS says:

    RPC,

    They are dangerous, but so is the US. I don’t like the current Iranian regime much but I would certainly be pursuing nukes like they are. The powers that oppose the US tend to have problems without something to back that up.

    We pretend to be the world’s righteous policeman, but we are wicked beyond belief.

    So is any other country made up of men and that will only change when the King of Kings returns to rule the Earth.

    The “experiment” in the US shows that the form of government the Founders set up will not work. A moral people is required and people stray from morality as they succeed, even if they keep a veneer of it for a time.

  120. Scott says:

    Hardest thing I have done so far on this project.

    https://ljubomirfarms.wordpress.com/2019/08/26/retaining-wall-is-the-devil/

    I’ll be asleep before my head hits the pillow.

  121. Oscar says:

    @ Scott

    I built a much smaller retaining wall at the first property I owned. I learned a lot of respect for masons through that process.

  122. Bismarck says:

    Not related, but it looks like warhorn has a group of associates running podcasts and websites for men.

  123. BillyS says:

    Don’t you want to run rebar (sp?) down the wall at spots to anchor it to the base? I am far from an expert at this but I recall reading that in the past when I thought I could learn more about such things.

  124. Opus says:

    O/T

    Christianity is a religion with increasing popularity in The U.S.A. but no one else is allowed to adhere to it – at least that is the case should one (as I recently did at BoxOfficeMojo) read of the success of movies by the Kendrick brothers. The first of their five was made for just $100,000, the second had a major budget increase to $250,000 as did the third at $1,000,000 and the fourth at $3,000,000 (and which returned some $68,000,000) and the latest has again over doubled the previous budget at $5,000,000. You can see where this is going! The only other people who have ever (and on the basis of returns few at that) seen these movies are the South Koreans.

    Are these movies as good as The Sound of Music (lots of Roman Catholics in that one)? I guess I’ll never know.

  125. She Who Must Be Obeyed says:

    Asked if she knew she was in God’s grace, The Maid of Orleans at least had the good sense to reply, ‘If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.”…but “Fox News” “Christian blogger” (lolz) Christen Limbaugh Bloom says “When Christians remember that one day we will be living in complete paradise in heaven”…talk about presumptuous! Well, is she and almost all of her ilk in for a surprise after they check out of the world.

  126. She Who Must Be Obeyed says:

    Magnum opus says:
    Christianity is a religion with increasing popularity in The U.S.A.
    >>>>>>>>>>

    Nearing its end
    Christianity lurches
    Unable to maintain
    The lies of the churches

    As I reveal
    The unholy con
    I lift up My Cup
    And adore Babylon!

  127. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Hmm
    Why did you post that link?

  128. Novaseeker says:

    I thought he posted it because it’s typical Wilson — blame the man, ignore the woman.

  129. Hmm says:

    @AR: For the absurdity of it: “…young men ought to be expected to find somebody cute and godly by their 23rd birthday.”

    Expected?

    I agree with much of what he says on the reasons for both men and women marrying young, but he’s totally clueless as to why what he wants won’t – can’t – happen. He puts the onus on young men, when much or most of it is beyond their power (in the current culture anyway) due to the preferences of young women – and their parents – and the culture in modern evangelical (and Reformed) churches.

  130. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Novaseeker, @Hmm

    I agree that it displays Wilson’s utter cluelessness very clearly. Too bad it wasn’t a handy link when Ms. Isabel was commenting here…

    But the essay is a reprint from 2016. Didn’t we dissect it 3 years ago?

  131. Frank K says:

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/young-americans-care-less-about-patriotism-religion-and-family-than-previous-generations-study-says

    Patriotism being “very important” fell 9 percent, religion dropped 12 percent and having children fell a whopping 16 percent

    The full article is behind a paywall: https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-have-shifted-dramatically-on-what-values-matter-most-11566738001

    Anyway, the numbers are not surprising, and I suspect they are actually worse than reported.

  132. Frank K says:

    A quote from a similar article:

    The poll revealed that this change was driven primarily by younger Americans. For example, only about 42 percent of Americans between 18-38 consider patriotism very important, fewer than one-third consider religion very important and, perhaps most concerning, is the finding that only 30 percent of today’s young people consider having children very important.

    Curiously, the poll did not appear to ask about marriage.

  133. Anonymous Reader says:

    On reflection there is a useful reason to point to Wilson’s article: it demonstrates that on this topic he has learned nothing over the last 3 years. Not a single thing. Cluelessness remains untouched. He might as well tell young men to get an MBA and a job with Kodak or the Post Office.

    Much like the French 19th century Bourbon royals, Doug Wilson has forgotten nothing and learned nothing.

  134. Lost Patrol says:

    it demonstrates that on this topic he has learned nothing over the last 3 years.

    I have to arrive at the same conclusion. When AR pointed out the article was 3 years old I wondered why Wilson posted it again, intact, 3 years later. The concept worked so well he hoped to capitalize on and perpetuate it? He does not get it, or much worse, he does understand…

    These girls will not marry on Doug Wilson’s timeline or the timeline of a 23 year old man. They will not and their parents will not support it either. It’s a brave new world, Doug. Get it together man.

    There is a plan and that plan has been described at length by several veteran commenters at Dalrock. The plan is based on material outcomes in the here and now – in “the world”. Marriage is for later. Look for it in your own church and tell me those commenters are wrong.

    They are right.

  135. The poll results are interesting, but not at all surprising.

    When you allow leftists to take over the country’s education system (k-12, higher ed) as well allow for the literal consolidation of media outlets to the hands of a corporate and political few, then perhaps these are predictable outcomes.

    Young Americans are being taught that they live in a racist, homophobic and xenophobic country that was built on the backs of slave labor and expanded in size only via the outright theft and military conquest of noble regional neighbors and indigenous peoples.

    So we have at least three generations of children who are now adults, having internalized such ideas and messaging, and will tell you and others that they feel shame for their own country, their history and that they feel pessimism for their future. Worse yet, these adults are now having children of their own and this cycle is perpetuating.

    Political and social conservatives really only themselves to blame for these developments. They had not alternative message. They did not even recognize the enemy when it was at the gates, and actually went out of their way to help them come in, even though they knew full well these days would come. We now how feminists who have all but taken over the Christian churches in the US.

    From a political stand point alone, let me just tell you how bad things really are:

    American conservatives – Republicans, moderate Democrats, Tea Baggers – over the last 30 years have nominated a litany of cartoonishly inept, vacuous and uninspiring candidates for Congress and President that would make Tex Avery green with envy.

    And most American political conservatives absolutely hated and despised Donald Trump in 2015 leading up all the way to election night. The very notion that Donald Trump – a huge donor to both Bill and Hillary Clinton in the past and congressional democrats- is the only guy left keeping the rat ship afloat and preventing a wave of young American Maoists and Khmer Rouge from taking over – should scare the crap out of people more than it currently does. Especially Gen Xers and anyone older.

    Like I had said in an earlier comment, perhaps what America really needs is another war, male scarcity and some killing fields. Because otherwise, given our horrifically short attentions spans, American men and women have completely forgot why personal sacrifice, honor, loyalty, patriotism and believing in something bigger than yourself is important to our human survival.

    Whether God is looking over us, or some invisible hand of human evolution, maybe the United States was not meant to last more than 250 years? We seem pretty divided anyway. Kind of like Europe.

  136. Anonymous Reader says:

    Constrainedlocus
    Tea Baggers

    Do you understand what that term means and who propagated it?

  137. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I foresee someone advising 23-year-old men to marry women 10 years older. That would marry off these 23-year-old men, and still allow women a “season of singleness” and then marrying in their early 30s.

    Women will love the idea. I’ve often heard women complain about men always wanting to marry younger women. “Why can’t the woman be older,” they ask.

    Indeed, modern women increasingly believe that cougars are the new normal.

    I’ve also often heard women say, “It makes sense for the wife to be older, because women live longer than men, and because women hit their sexual peak later than men.”

    “All you 23-year-old Peter Pans need to get off the porn and WIFE UP a 33-year-old Daughter of the King. It’d be the best thing to ever happen to you!”

  138. Anonymous Reader says:

    I foresee someone advising 23-year-old men to marry women 10 years older.

    Lots of people advise 23 year old men to do all sorts of stupid stuff. Especially feminists approaching The Wall. However they have eyes and can see the differences between a 23 year old and a 33 year old woman.

    I’ve also often heard women say, “It makes sense for the wife to be older, because women live longer than men, and because women hit their sexual peak later than men.”

    Women say a lot of things, especially when they get a bit desperate. If you want to understand them, ignore what they say and watch what they do.

    PS: Ask the women who say “it makes sense…” what the word “menopause” means.

  139. Jim says:

    Re comments on air pollution: My wife and I were in Seoul last fall for a vacation, and the air pollution from China was horrible the last couple of days. Came back home hacking away. Worse than I had ever seen it before, and now I understand the “fine dust” pollution can be year round, whereas before it was only at certain times of the year. From time to time, we have thought about moving to Korea, but that pretty much crossed it off our list.

    There are places in China that are breathtakingly beautiful, but much of China is under a haze of smog these days. China has made efforts to deal with this by forcing folks to drive electric mopeds, but it is still bad. The same was true in the Hanoi area of Vietnam when we visited a few months ago. Much of the heavy industry of China is now moving south into Vietnam, and the result is continuous grey skies and a strange “fog” that persists in northern Vietnam. You could see it in the videos covering the meeting between Trump and Kim Jong Un back in the spring.

  140. Red Pill Christianity says:

    RPL, you posted this quote: “All you 23-year-old Peter Pans need to get off the porn and WIFE UP a 33-year-old Daughter of the King. It’d be the best thing to ever happen to you!”

    Who, in God’s green earth would say such a thing?!?! Pray tell, where did that insane quote came from?

    In a perfect world, people would be able to form relationships and move on with their lives in a positive manner. But that is simply not the case. I am in my late 30s now and I have to tell you, dating a Western woman in her 30s is pretty bad.

    And it is not because she has lost her “youthful beauty”. No, as a man in my late 30s myself, I am honest with myself: unless I marry a woman from outside the US, my odds of marrying a woman in her say mid-20s to late 20s is much much lower. That is because I understand and accept the fact that I live in a geocentric country where women feel entitled and cultivate delusions that they are going to marrying younger guys who are millionaire bodybuilders.

    No, it is not about looks. It is a problem of the mind and their soul. My problem with most women over 30 today, definitely the over 30s in our country, is that many of them are either emotionally unbalanced or mentally delusional or bitter and closed off.

    To just go and “wife up” a 33-year old is extremely risky, given out culture of encouraging profitable divorce and the misandrist legal system. If any man this day and age, with all the information out there, says he does not think divorce rapes or false criminal accusations by women do not actually happen, he is beyond the Blue Pill. Such a man is a fool and a clown.

    But let’s take this step by step with my 7 question probing test:

    1) What was the 33-year old “daughter of the King” been up to until this point? How hard has she been riding the carrousel from ages 16 to age 33?
    2) Why wasn’t she married before, and if she was, what happened (watch for claims like “he was abusive” or “I am victim of my ex-” etc)?
    3) What is her travel history (looking for locations like Cabo, Panama City Beach, Ibiza, Dubai, San Padre Island, Daytona, etc)?
    4) What is her ballpark notch count (and I would extrapolate since she will never ever tell the truth about this)? How many of these whore Tinder hookups or ONS?
    5) What type of guys has she been banging or dating (watch for the “typical guy” she dates)?
    6) How many alcoholic drinks and/or prescription antidepressants does she consume in a typical week?
    7) What is her group of friends (watch for AMOGs and you go guuuurllll sloots in her crew)?

    My friends, if you find out these 7 facts about a woman, you will see very quickly that “wifing up” this supposed 33-year old Daughter of the King is a suicide mission. It is a guaranteed trip to criminal court and then family court. It is guaranteed pain for the man. Not that any of these terrible outcomes matters anyway, as long as SHE makes out like a bandit, who cares, right?

    I have to say, this is, hands down, the dumbest quote I have heard in a really long time. To go and blindly “wife up a 33-year old Daughter of the King”.
    What human being would utter such unspeakably dumb drivel? God have mercy a fool who heeds such advice!

  141. Luke says:

    John James R. says:
    August 25, 2019 at 11:15 am
    “These people are our enemies and every Dollar we sent to China is another bullet to shoot us with, another missile in a plane, and another tank on the road. These people are dangerous”

    Have you ever visited?

    Yes. The above is quite accurate.

  142. Liz says:

    Have you ever visited?
    Yes. The above is quite accurate.

    +1

  143. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    RPC: Who, in God’s green earth would say such a thing?!?! Pray tell, where did that insane quote came from?

    I made up that quote. It’s my prediction that we’ll be hearing it.

    I’ve seen an increase in “cougar consciousness” in our culture. Books are movies are increasingly depicting women a few years older that their husband. I first noticed this in The Celestine Prophecy that 1990s New Age bestseller that women loved. All the male characters happened to be younger than their wives, event the Third World characters. It didn’t trumpet it. It made it seem normal. I then noticed in various popular novels, such as Forever Peace, the sequel to Haldeman’s Forever War.

    I’m seeing female celebrities living with, or even marrying, men a few years younger (e.g., Vanessa Marcil, Lena Headey). If you check IMDB, it’s not the norm, but it’s not uncommon.

    It’s my prediction that there’ll be a bigger push for normalizing young men marrying older women. That will fit in with women’s ideal world. Young men will be told that older wives are more mature, experienced in live, and “have so much more to offer.” He should be lucky to have her. Men who rule out older wives will be shamed, just like men who rule out single mothers.

  144. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I just did a Google search on “benefits of marrying an older woman.”

    https://www.boldsky.com/relationship/marriage-and-beyond/2014/reasons-to-marry-an-older-woman-055601.html

    There are a lot of benefits when you marry an older woman and you must celebrate thinking about it. …

    If you have dated younger women in the past, you must have experienced certain issues with them and a lot of drama would have been seen by your eyes. When you start to date a mature woman, you realize the lesser drama that she brings. You start having a grasp of the relationship as there is a mutual bonding and there is a lot of intelligence and sex appeal on the plate.

    Is it better to waste your time in arguing with an immature girl or would it be better to lie down peacefully on the lap of a mature woman? Well, a man with intelligence would choose the latter, always.

    Note the shaming.

    An older woman has a very sharp intellect and this, always is a turn on for men, especially for younger men who are on a constant search for something more than usual. …

    It goes on, listing the MANY benefits of older wives. You’ll have fun picking through the claims.

    Here’s another article, with a similar laundry list: https://www.wittycrocs.com/benefits-marrying-woman-older/

    * Older women are mature and intelligent. … A mature woman does not whine or raise her voice when you talk to her.

    * Understand their partner. Mature women understand their partner’s needs. …

    * Financially independent. Mature women are financially independent. …

    * Maturity in Parenting. … A mature lady can handle such situations, unlike younger women.

    * She knows what she wants. Younger women are still discovering the dating world and their bodies. Mature women know what they want. She will go for what she desires with confidence. Her life is more organized than that of a younger woman.relationship.

    * She appreciates you. Mature women value your sense of perspective. When you make her feel adored her return is 100% to your benefit.

    * She has more experience. She has been to many places and has many ideas to spice up your relationship. She will spoil you and make you enjoy every moment spent together.

    * She is less demanding. A mature woman is less demanding than younger ladies. She reasons maturely and instead of demanding she requests her partner. …

    * She will make you a better man. You can learn a lot from a mature woman. You will learn the importance of family, investing, and you will understand a woman more. She will teach you how to love and prepare for the future.

    It seems to be trending in South Korea:

    Yeah, I predict there’ll eventually be pressure on men to marry older women.

  145. Novaseeker says:

    It’s my prediction that there’ll be a bigger push for normalizing young men marrying older women. That will fit in with women’s ideal world. Young men will be told that older wives are more mature, experienced in live, and “have so much more to offer.” He should be lucky to have her. Men who rule out older wives will be shamed, just like men who rule out single mothers.

    It’s already underway, as you noticed, but I think that the ultimate impact will be small. Not because of men’s preferences — that’s irrelevant. Men are the buyers in the market (other than for a handful of top tier men), and women dictate the terms of the market. Women’s preferences for age of men shift over the course of their lives. They prefer slightly older until they are around 40. Then they prefer around the same age or slightly younger until the late 40s. And thereafter they prefer younger — this is all in the OKCupid data.

    “Cougars” are a thing because the women involved are at the age — generally mid-40s — where they begin to prefer younger men, and begin to be unattracted to older men. There aren’t many cougars who are 32, with men who are 27. There are a few of them, but a very small percentage of cougars are that age — most of the cougars are in their 40s with guys who are in their mid to late 30s. I do think that those kinds of relationships will become more common as there are more older single women, but I don’t think that cougaring will become the norm for women under 40, and particularly not for women under 35.

    The media pushes all kinds of things that are much less common than they are in real life, as we know. In the push for gay rights, TV and movies made it seem like 25-35% of the population was gay, when in reality it’s no more than 5%. Today it seems like 60%+ of the couples you see in advertisements on TV and so on are interracial couples (typically WM/BM pairings), while the stats still say that 8.6% of black men are married to white women (2010 census). Yet it is pushed in advertising to make it much higher in the effort to make it seem like it is more prevalent than it is, with the hope of encouraging it in people. I don’t think it will be very successful in encouraging a huge percentage of cougar relationships (again other than where the woman is 40+,where they are already common).

  146. Liz says:

    Prager U’s case against youtube goes to court today.
    This has potential major implications for other public forums, I sure hope they win.

  147. Hmm says:

    @Lost Patrol:

    I write what I do about Doug Wilson knowing that it is a bit different in my own church. We are near a big-name university, and every year we wind up with one or two married male grad students and their families. They have generally married in their early twenties, and may even have a kid or two by the time they join us. And they will usually have one or two more before they finish their PhD in 5-7 years. These marriages tend to be quite happy, and get a lot of support from the people in the church. In turn our young people see these happy couples as examples of good marriages. We also have unmarried grad students that marry while still in school.

    So we have no bias about either men or women marrying young – our pastor married while he was still in seminary and started his family while pursuing his PhD.

    But this is largely a function of both the church culture and our pastor’s own teaching. It’s not something that I consider transferable to other places – it is not a spiritual or romantic “technology” that can be packaged and reproduced elsewhere. Like Wilson’s church, we are a moderately insular culture. This is why I sometimes give him a sizable benefit of the doubt.

  148. 7817 says:

    Like Wilson’s church, we are a moderately insular culture. This is why I sometimes give him a sizable benefit of the doubt.

    If Wilson was in an insular culture just talking to his own people he could get the benefit of the doubt, but instead he’s talking to the broader culture, giving us the Reformed opinion on how to live right.

    The Reformed segment needs to either shut up and stay in their lane or else educate themselves on what is actually happening in the culture. Instead they have deceived themselves into thinking they are strong antifeminists, while they are unknowingly serving the feminine imperative, all with a nice helping of smugness just to make the whole display insufferable.

  149. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    If Wilson was in an insular culture just talking to his own people he could get the benefit of the doubt, but instead he’s talking to the broader culture, giving us the Reformed opinion on how to live right.

    He’s doing both. Wilson is the head of his own church, with his own college and if I recall his own seminary. He and some other preachers attempted to create their own denomination a few years back. Tim Bayly did something similar in Indiana earlier this year. Wilson is in Moscow, Idaho and Bayly in Bloomington Indiana; both towns / small cities multiple travel hours away from large cities.

    The geographical and cultural isolation is a real “bubble-world” effect on both men, and it shows in their writing. Ironically they are both in bubbles within bubbles within bubbles: I’m sure that without much effort one could find that college girls at Idaho U or Washington State are a lot like college girls at Arizona State or Ohio State – but that would require getting out of the church office and going allllll the way downtown – or even across the border to Pullman! So not much chance of showing what female hypergamy looks like to Wilson.

    Ditto for Bayly. Google Maps tells me Bloomington has plenty of night spots for a town it’s size. Bayly’s just not going to bestir himself enough to go to that little downtown and observe – plus if he did, like Wilson he probably wouldn’t actually “see” what’s in front of him. Nobody forces girls to ride the cock carousel, they mount up of their own will.

    One has to be very out of touch with the real world of college to decide that “all we gotta do is” tell the 23 year old men to manUP and marry. Very, very out of touch.

    PS: It would be annoying to see yet another round of pointless sectarian rage. Please don’t start that.

  150. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hmm
    We are near a big-name university, and every year we wind up with one or two married male grad students and their families.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Selection_bias

    Like Wilson’s church, we are a moderately insular culture. This is why I sometimes give him a sizable benefit of the doubt.

    Why do you find his willful ignorance to be acceptable?

  151. 7817 says:

    It would be annoying to see yet another round of pointless sectarian rage. Please don’t start that.

    I’m relatively sure there are individual Reformed men out there that aren’t like Wilson, Bayly, Foster and Tennant. My point is the vocal Reformed leadership that is interested in reforming masculinity speaks with one self deluded voice on these issues.

    I have no problem with Reformed as a denomination more than any other. Even my own denomination is converging. We’re all in bad shape.

  152. Frank K says:

    RPL, you posted this quote: “All you 23-year-old Peter Pans need to get off the porn and WIFE UP a 33-year-old Daughter of the King. It’d be the best thing to ever happen to you!”

    Who, in God’s green earth would say such a thing?!?! Pray tell, where did that insane quote came from?

    It isn’t any more outrageous than a lot of other nonsense that is currently being peddled as “normal”, so I expect this will soon come to pass.

    Brazil’s President, Mr. Bolsonaro, recently mocked the wife of France’s Macron, who is about 20 years older than Macron. The international firestorm that ensued was breathtaking. Even though most people privately wonder what was Macron thinking when he married that granny, people also know that they can get into hot water for publicly expressing that thought, so the shaming RPL predicted is probably just around the corner.

  153. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    I’m relatively sure there are individual Reformed men out there that aren’t like Wilson, Bayly, Foster and Tennant.

    Eh, write it thus: Not All Reformed Men Are Like That (NARALT).
    Fits in with NAWALT perfectly.

    My point is the vocal Reformed leadership that is interested in reforming masculinity speaks with one self deluded voice on these issues.

    Ok  Now what?

  154. Scott says:

    There is a sense in which the sectarian discussions are inevitable in light of the fact that so many different traditions are represented here. Those discussions can remain on target as long as the ideas and critiques are focused on the primary goal(s) that sites like this have.

    You can discuss a particular way in which a particular tradition handles something by being inquisitive:

    “I’m not sure how X group has approached Y topic, but commenter X who is from that group might chime in.”

    You can advocate for a particular approach:

    “My faith tradition has held the line fairly well on topic Y by taking approach Z”

    You can even be a little self-critical:

    “My group has done fairly will in area Y but I sometimes wish they would take approach A like group B does”

    Where it gets weird is when it goes

    “You guys are bunch of cult of Mary closeted fags who worship vaginas.”

  155. 7817 says:

    Ok Now what?

    They are one group that was consistently and wrongfully defended prior to the Warhorn podcast.

    Until they change their position, when they are defended here the truth needs to be told here, so that’s what I’m doing.

  156. Anonymous Reader says:

    They are one group that was consistently and wrongfully defended prior to the Warhorn podcast.

    Lol, whut? How long have you been reading here?

    Do a search on this site for “wilson” as well as “matt chandler” and “John Piper” and “Tim Keller”, see if you can find Dalrock defending them. Oh, and search on Bnonn as well, Dalrock had a couple of essays on him. Also Mark “How Dare You” Driscoll, can’t forget him, although he’s faded back down to a church in Arizona I believe.

    Who is it that has been defending these men, and where? Please provide links or quotes to support your assertion.

    Until they change their position, when they are defended here the truth needs to be told here, so that’s what I’m doing.

    These pastors are in niche denominations within the US or in Bnonn’s case, New Zealand. They don’t have much real authority inside their own bubble or web-presence, and none outside of it. Outside of the Presby / Reformed churches few have heard of any of those men; my Baptist neighbor knows about Baptist preachers, my Episcopalian neighbor knows only the local priests. Really there aren’t very many places where these men are even known, let alone argued about.

    Churchgoing men in the androsphere care, but they are definitely a minority within a minority within a minority.

    As the US shifts away from Protestantism, and in fact shifts away from Christianity, fewer people will care what church leaders have to say. Only those who continue on in their various churches will even notice. It might be prudent for chuchgoing people to find more common ground, since to the rest of the country “church” is often that thing that moralistic, judgemental people do for a while on Sunday while normal people are out for a run or a bike ride.

    If you want to get worked up for a fight, go and look at the ReVoice conference, which has been put on twice by the same church (Hmm’s denomination if I remember right). The lead preacher there is very pro-gay, maybe he even is homosexual himself. Acceptance of “out” homosexuals is the new push item on the menu. You could possibly do some good work among the 20-somethings who are much more accepting of homosexuality than the Boomers.

    PS: Don’t confuse my descriptive text with proscriptive text.

  157. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Hmm

    I understand what you’re saying and am glad that what you’ve described can still occur. I threw a blanket over the topic but something always gets out from underneath when I do that.

  158. Frank K says:

    since to the rest of the country “church” is often that thing that moralistic, judgemental people do for a while on Sunday while normal people are out for a run or a bike ride.

    LOL! Since when do “normal people”, or as I like to call them “fats n tats”, exercise?

  159. 7817 says:

    Dalrock never defended them, but there were often commenters trying to muddy the waters, making out like Wilson and Co. actually were on the side of Truth in this debate. That’s all I was describing.

  160. BillyS says:

    Scott,

    I have read more replies saying everyone who doesn’t worship Mary is the whole cause of the problem than otherwise. A few opposing that do try to stir things up at times, but the start has been the other way lately IIRC.

    I do agree with your point though. It is not worth too much time. Note a position, if needed, and leave it at that.

    Though we have lost the ability for men to disagree without coming to arms. Thank the progressive left for a lot of that!

  161. Anonymous Reader says:

    Cougar gets dumped in DC.

    55 year old doctor finds out her 38 year old husband has made a declaration of luv to a younger woman, divorce ensues. The younger woman recently separated from her husband. I wager she will get custody of the 13 year old son. See article for details.

    Please note: this is the NY Post, not The Onion or Babylon Bee:

    https://nypost.com/2019/08/27/my-husband-dumped-me-for-rep-ilhan-omar-dc-mom-says-in-divorce-filing/?amp

  162. Red Pill Christianity says:

    RPL, I understand you made up that quote because, as you correctly predict, this will be something church ladies will soon be promoting out there. They are done with their carrousel ride post-wall, so now, they need to find a patsy. We all know Beth Moore and Wendy Griffith clearly support that kinda thing.

    Problem is: men, at our very core, will not change our preferences in taste for women. Younger, hotter, long hair, feminine, pleasant, pretty, agreeable… these quality traits we seek out in women are hard-wired into our brains. No matter how much social engineering the feminists and the Left do through the schools and media, that will never change. All they are accomplishing is creating SchoolShooters and psychopaths. To cannot change fundamentals of human nature through re-education and behavior modification only creates chaos.

    One alternative the Left is now pushing in young boys is to make them wear dresses at school or “discover their gender” at age 8 or medicate them into submission. Simply trying to re-educate and re-wire young men is not working, so alternatively, the Left is indoctrinating kids and re-educating them into thinking they are women or become dysfunctional Beta psychos (see Highlands Ranch school terrorists – both are transgenders).

    But this is more than cultural. It is financial as well. In Ukraine, for instance, you OFTEN see older guys with much younger women. All the time, I do not care if it is a “feminist city” full of male tourists like Kiev or Odessa or a smaller town like Kherson or Dnipro. The culture there is women there actually prefer older guys because of maturity and relationship stability is something women there want. But….. There is also an economic argument there…. but when you see much older guys (or very fat ones) with hotties, you know it is a financial arrangement for her, since she is likely poor.

    America, like almost all of the Western world, is a backwards and inverted society. Men have been socially engineered away from education and jobs and replaced by women. This did not happen naturally; this was socially engineered over the last 100 years, since the early days of Woodrow Wilson.

    https://RooshV.com/the-inversion-agenda

    Roosh and Heartiste have been writing about this for years. The Left’s plan is moving ahead well. You invert society upside down and take control. Good becomes bad and bad must be destroyed.

    Today, we see the results of the Inversion agenda. Men in America who marry older women do so for “male hypergamy” of sorts or simple need. If they marry an older woman who is RICH (i.e. actress or CEO), boom, you just explained why. You are making a financial argument rather than a pure attraction one. They want her to pay the bills so they can chill at home and play video games and watch hot women on the screen.

    Society, media, and schools may actively promote older women hooking up with younger men. That can and does happen often as young guys will do anything for some relief, heck young guys in their teens and 20s will do anything to get laid, even if woman is below his standards or older. That has always been the case.

    But for MARRIAGE and actual love with older women and younger men, different story. The types of guys who seek out older women do so because they need her financial help from her, have “mommy issues”, or are colossal Beta males, like Macron.

    But more often than not, it is a financial decision for the guy to “marry up” an older women that has money. This trend is being created because K-12 schools and then colleges, are working overtime to discourage boys and have school curriculums 100% designed to catered to women’s interests and strengths. THis discouyrages boys and puts them in the path of bad grades and disengagement with academics. The result will likely be that late rin lfie, thes eboys work lower-paying jobs or become basement dwellers more interested in beer and video games than jobs or women.

    Problem is, that women, even college educated ones with good jobs, at their core are so hypergamous, that unless she sees real value and real status from having a “loser” younger guy (i.e. guy who is broke, but fit and younger), she will probably not going to want to marry him.

    Basically, when you see a careerist older woman with a younger guy, just find out what he does and what she does. Trust me, she is pulling 2x-3x his pay, if she is not the sole breadwinner in the relationship. She complains about “him not working” and all that, but she is old and ugly, likely fat too, so having a younger guy is a status symbol for her, like having a BMW. It is a financial thing for him. If he is Alpha he is probably getting a woman on the side. If he is Beta, he is on porn, alcohol, and video games to be able to cope.

    Regardless, unless the older woman is stunning and exceptional in many ways, she is likely richer and makes more than the man, so it is ultimately a financial deal for him. Many times, he has been priced out of society by either divorce impoverishment or disenfranchisement in college or employment, so he is stuck being the “trophy husband”, whether he likes it or not.

  163. Red Pill Christianity says:

    *Red Pill Latecomer says: I just did a Google search on “benefits of marrying an older woman.”

    RPL, while some of those may be valid points, the fact remains that men are visually attracted to younger, prettier women. That will never change, it is hardwired into our brains.

    I seriously dispute the “maturity” and “appreciating her man more” or “never raising her voice”. What are they talking about? Older women are often very bitter after decades of her own bad decisions and pumpNdumps. They are often very combative as well. They have a sense of entitlement that has only grown with time.

    A man can “negotiate his attraction” for this older woman, but he will never truly be happy inside. Never! Negotiated Attraction does not work in real life. Telling yourself all these “good reasons” why to marry an older woman is a good idea will not create attraction. Attraction is irrational, thus, a man cannot negotiate his attraction for an older woman.

    He can fake it for financial reasons, but he cannot truly “become attracted” to a woman he is not “irrationally attracted to”. Most likely, he will stay with an older woman for financial needs on his end, and will medicate himself with alcohol, video games, porn, and occasional anti-depressants.

    *Frank K says: Brazil’s President, Mr. Bolsonaro, recently mocked the wife of France’s Macron, who is about 20 years older than Macron. The international firestorm that ensued was breathtaking.

    Bolsonaro is much like Trump, he says what is on his mind. He is also very conservative and populist, like Trump, so the Globalist elites hate him. He definitely mocked Macron’s old globalist hag, and that is all good.

    Macron might very well be gay and his “wife” is all for show (lavender marriage). Macron is also a colossal Beta, much like Prince Harry. Merkel “set him straight” after his ultra-friendly meeting with Trump in DC earlier this year. Macron clearly likes Trump and his badass Alpha vibe, but Macron is a globalist and Merkel scolded him for his friendliness with Trump. He is not allowed to have playmates who do not seek to destroy Western civilization.

    The globocucks are already looking for ways to hurt Bolsonaro because of the Amazon fires. They either do not understand what is happening there or are purposely misleading.

    The Amazon fires are NOT caused by “Global Warming”. They are man-made because in Brazil, the bureaucrats make it impossible to develop any land with any forestation on it. So tens of thousands of landowners have land that cannot be used – ever – under Brazilian law… unless it was already deforested. Or if it becomes de-forested by Acts of God (like a fire). So they start these fires, which often get out of control and burn too much.

    Bolsonaro has been a critic of these dumb laws preventing all land devlopment (he wants a compromise, but UN types will not allow any changes), so Bolso is viewed as “letting it happen”, but it is not the case. Brazil is a poor country with awful infrastructure and they do not have roads to reach the fire properly. They do not have airplanes to dump water. They do not even have cash to pay people to go put out the fires. That is the truth… watch Brazilian news, they are talking aboiut how they cannot control it. Bolso sent military there to deal with it, but there is very little they can do.

    Bottom line on older women and younger men: shaming men to marry/date old women will not work in real life, because male ATTRACTION CANNOT BE NEGOTIATED. They can tolerate the situation for money to marry old women, but they will medicate themselves to deal with the situation and be unhappy (or find a lass on the side). male attraction cannot be negotiated, it cannot be taught, and it cannot be “learned”. Anyone who says otherwise is lying about true human nature.

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