Marriage and children were always her priority.

I recently came across a heartbreaking article at National Catholic Register that underlines why all of the books aimed at young Christian women telling them to focus on having fabulous lives in their “season of singleness”, they are a prize to be won, etc. are so cruel.  The article is by Emily Stimpson Chapman, and is The Cross of Infertility: Finding Companionship With the Saints:

For as long as I can remember, I dreamed of having a large family. Five, six, seven, eight children — it didn’t matter; I was prepared to take as many children as God sent me. There was just one problem: My 20s came and went without God sending me a husband.

Another decade passed, and with my single status unchanged, reality set in. There would be no eight babies. Nor would there be five babies.

By the time I finally did meet a wonderful man and get engaged at age 40, I hoped for just two. The doctors assured me that was realistic.  I was healthy, my hormones all checked out at optimum levels, and there was no reason I shouldn’t conceive. I believed them. After all, my friends my age or older were having babies. Why wouldn’t I?

Eighteen months later, I’m still asking that question, and the NaProTECHNOLGY doctor I’ve worked with has no answer. Even at age 42, he thinks I should be able to conceive.

When I read articles like this, I think “Why didn’t someone warn her?”  From her bio at emilystimpson.com it is clear that despite her claim to have always wanted marriage and many children, she focused her youth on career and education:

Emily holds a BA from Miami University of Ohio (Phi Beta Kappa, summa cum laude), where she studied political science, history, and English literature. She also did graduate work in political science at John Hopkins University and theology at Franciscan University. Before moving to Steubenville, Emily worked in Washington, DC, first as a Legislative Assistant to then Congressman Jim Talent (R-MO), then later at the Heritage Foundation, where she served as Special Assistant to former Attorney General Edwin Meese III.

This is of course the feminist life script, and is not coincidentally the path men traditionally follow to attract a wife.  It also has become the standard UMC life script, as Novaseeker describes.  Most UMC women are able to pull this off, because as the clock is ticking down they get intensely pragmatic in their search for a man.  Sheryl Sandberg’s famous quote on the subject captures part of this pragmatism.  There is also a ramped up sense of urgency for nearly all UMC women around age 30.  Lori Gottlieb’s famous Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough article and book are reminders to UMC women not to wait around for Mr. Perfect.

But while large numbers of modern Christian women have adopted the UMC life script, they aren’t getting the warnings not to overdo it that their secular sisters are receiving.  This is why you see Christian women like Emily Stimpson Chapman thinking that getting engaged at age 40 meant she could expect to have two children, and why she is shocked that at 42 she can’t conceive.  Her secular sisters got the message, but she did not.  Marriage delaying Christian women are being reassured that everything is fine.  They consume social media posts and read books written by other marriage delaying Christian women, and they are urged not to act with urgency like their secular sisters are doing.  I’ve written a fair amount about this army of aging never married Christian women writing on the season of singleness, including Wendy Griffith and Mandy Hale.  Griffith finally married in her mid 50s.  Hale is still unmarried, and blogged back in November of 2018 about her creeping doubts about the “You are enough!” message she has been selling to unmarried Christian women:

I’ve dressed it up in pretty pink girl power with a silver lining instead of gotten really, really REAL with you and with myself about my fears about being single and 39. And in doing that, my friends, I feel I have done you a disservice. I have done myself a disservice. It’s recently been called to my attention that I use positivity as a defense mechanism. Oh, I was angry when I heard that. Fearful. Indignant. Convinced the person telling me that HAD to be mistaken. I’m just a positive person! I argued. If I don’t look for the silver lining…what is the purpose to the bad things that happen?! If I choose to let in the darkness and the sadness and the REALNESS…won’t I sink in it? Won’t it drown me? Won’t it make me a…SHUDDER…negative person?!??!

The truth is…I don’t know exactly why I’m still single. I think I’m starting to come to a better understanding of why…but for the moment, it’s still just shadowed and blurry truth that I’m struggling to make sense of. But the reasons I often convince myself that I’m still single aren’t pretty.

I never meet guys. Like…literally NEVER. A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room. I had no trouble meeting men. I got hit on regularly. But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore. I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.

The tragic thing is that when Hale should have been learning how to recover from her already failing plan, she was busy writing books encouraging other Christian women in the same situation.  In 2012 she wrote The Single Woman’s Sassy Survival Guide: Letting Go and Moving On, and she wrote several others in the meantime.  Now she writes articles on how to be a fabulous single retired woman for the AARP.

Coincidentally Emily Stimpson Chapman also wrote a book in 2012 with a similar title:  The Catholic Girl’s Survival Guide for the Single Years: The Nuts and Bolts of Staying Sane and Happy While Waiting for Mr. Right. I haven’t flipped through her book, but my sense is that Stimpson-Chapman’s book isn’t as bad as Wendy Griffith’s and Mandy Hale’s books are. Still, she clearly didn’t have even a tenuous grasp of the biological reality involved with “waiting for Mr. Right” while focusing on education and career. If she did, she wouldn’t have been shocked to find out at age 42 that she had waited too long to conceive.

Again, the difference between secular women and modern Christian women in this regard is astounding. Griffith, Hale, and Stimpson-Chapman all wrote their books after The Atlantic loudly warned marriage delaying women of the risk of waiting too long.  Gottlieb’s Marry Him! article made a huge splash in 2008.  Kate Bolick’s All the Single Ladies reinforced the warning in 2011:

We took for granted that we’d spend our 20s finding ourselves, whatever that meant, and save marriage for after we’d finished graduate school and launched our careers, which of course would happen at the magical age of 30. That we would marry, and that there would always be men we wanted to marry, we took on faith. How could we not?

But what transpired next lay well beyond the powers of everybody’s imagination: as women have climbed ever higher, men have been falling behind. We’ve arrived at the top of the staircase, finally ready to start our lives, only to discover a cavernous room at the tail end of a party, most of the men gone already, some having never shown up—and those who remain are leering by the cheese table, or are, you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.

But Griffith, Hale, and Stimpson-Chapman were too busy teaching younger women to learn from the warnings of older women.  Even worse, aside from Hale’s glancing admission quoted above, none of them have come out to warn younger women that they were wrong, and not to make the same mistakes they made.

And so the cycle continues, with Anna Hitchings as the face of a new generation of never married 30 something Christian women attempting to teach what they should instead be seeking to learn.  Hitchings’ career as a writer finally took off earlier this year when Catholic Weekly published her piece For want of a lot of good men.  Hitchings capitalized on her new found celebrity by starting a blog teaching other Christian women (and men) who likewise have failed to marry.  Recently she wrote a post titled Making the most of your single years where she acknowledges the debt she owes to the never married writers who proceeded her:

While the tried and true guide to helping Catholic women ‘survive’ the single years has been written by American author Emily Stimpson, I thought it would be helpful to share some of my own advice on getting the best out of your singlehood.

Just for the record, I don’t think being single is something that should be ‘survived’; I think we should be able to thrive in whatever state of life we are in, because that’s what God has willed for us now.

This entry was posted in Anna Hitchings, Emily Stimpson Chapman, Finding a Spouse, Having it all, Kate Bolick, Lori Gottlieb, Mandy Hale, Wendy Griffith. Bookmark the permalink.

471 Responses to Marriage and children were always her priority.

  1. vfm7916 says:

    So rather than decry the decline of family and christianity as all women’s fault while spouting “don’t get married, let me lay down what to do:

    1. Get married to a good enough woman, and practice game
    2. Have children, 3+, and don’t expect to live a UMC lifestyle with toys
    3. Tell your daughters from an early age that their highest and best calling is being a wife and mother, and it will make them the most happy. Work with your wife to ensure that she’s modeling the best she can.
    4. That means homeschooling, cooking, domestic skills, etc. Do sex roles, and reinforce the value of home economics in family success.
    5. Never ever ever ever virtue signal about your daughters dating. That means the whole gun t-shirt thing, etc. Your role is to ensure her marriage to a good young man, which means 4-5 years older with a good career/trade who can lead her. If she understands your expectation about marriage and its value, she will do a lot better.
    6. No college.
    7. For those that get horrified and say your girl needs a skill to support herself when her husband divorces her, that’s when you mock the shit out of those people and amplify the absurdity of that statement. All those spouting about “never get married” know exactly what power a woman has in today’s legal environment. This is where you lay it out and point how how screwed a guy would be to even consider divorce.
    8. Life is a normal distribution. You are not special, and there’s always the probability that you’ll fail terribly and crap will hit the fan.
    9. If women and family are too risky for you, then there’s the military or the monastery, which are both valuable and civilization building.

    and finally:

    Risk exists. If you don’t try, you’re the One Tael guy out of Matthew. Don’t be that guy.

  2. Minesweeper says:

    Its not just the women, I’ve recently had to move to an area thats chock-a-block with single moms and their daughters who don’t see their bio dads.

    And its utterly tragic on every level. If you want to see what a 8/9yo girl looks like when she is hollowed out because she has no dad contact, then come view this. It’s heartbreaking.

    The women without the male moderating influence in their lives are almost going crazy, but considering it freedom to do what they want.

    You can really see what life is like without fathers and it’s dreadful.

    But 100% in the feminist life script.

  3. Charles B says:

    >Just for the record, I don’t think being single is something that should be ‘survived’; I think we should be able to thrive in whatever state of life we are in, because that’s what God has willed for us now.

    Ah yes, God willed it. It had nothing to do with your choices or actions. Nope, God willed you to forsake marrying young so that you could vacation in foreign places. Right.

  4. Lexet Blog says:

    Where are these “good enough” women? In the church? Which ones? Out of wedlock children and fornication is no longer frowned on in conservative congregations.

    And why would you encourage marriage when it’s 100% risk, 0 benefit to men?

  5. Lexet Blog says:

    Economic investment is not analogous to marriage bro.

  6. Minesweeper says:

    “You can really see what life is like without fathers and it’s dreadful.”

    Which in a way, is good. It means, this madness will come to an end.

    This young generation of women, who have been denied all fatherly male contact, will hopefully not swallow the utter BS that the education\culture system feeds them regarding men.

  7. Emily Stimpson Chapman: “My 20s came and went without God sending me a husband.”

    Lots of questions sparked by that simple statement. Did she apply this logic to any other aspect of her life, or did she work for what she wanted? Who taught her that the woman’s role was to wait passively for God to provide a husband for her? Is she angry at their bad advice?

    Mandy Hale: “I never meet guys. …A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room. I had no trouble meeting men. I got hit on regularly. But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore. I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.”

    This is ignorant about the basics of life – and delusional. How can somebody like that become a famous advisor for women? They would learn more by watching old Budweiser beer commercials.

  8. Lost Patrol says:

    Emily Stimpson Chapman decided to adopt. I wonder if Wendy Griffith will as well?

    https://www.instagram.com/emilystimpsonchapman/

  9. Opus says:

    Not that I was feeling very sympathetic to her feminist/catholic plight but it hardly helped her that when God was dolling out good looks she was the last to be served. Maybe in the circles in which she moves it is normal but double barrelled names always strike me as a form of pretension – to make oneself seem more important than one really is, although around here it is usually a cover for illegitimacy.

    I once knew a young French woman who made it perfectly clear that there was nothing she would have preferred than a family. I and my friends were always polite to her for she was not unpleasant but when one is a round as one is tall (and she was short) men just are not interested. I hope she has since lost the weight. Last time I saw her she was driving a taxi. Few are as privileged as Emily Stimpson Chapman.

  10. Gaius Gracchus says:

    What percent of these unmarried 30+ “Christian” women are virgins? I suspect the percent is small.

  11. Minesweeper says:

    @Lex, True, like it would make a difference.

    Although you do have to wonder, at what point would they ever see an issue?

    another 4 generations down the line ?

  12. Hugh Mann says:

    “A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room… I got hit on regularly. But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore.”

    Says 39 year old… whatever could have changed?

    I’ve mentioned before the UK writer Jody Day and her Gateway Women project, “the global friendship and support network for childless women” (she went down the classic education/career prioritising path to discover in her 30s that the reproductive train was hitting the fertility buffers). Trouble is, while I’m sure the site and her self help groups are a great comfort, she doesn’t seem to put any of her undoubted energy into warning younger women of the possibility of ending up childless.

    Now I can see why it’s very difficult – I imagine offers to talk to schoolgirls about fertility would soon attract the usual suspects – “you’re teaching girls they are brood mares!”, “Handmaid’s Tale!” etc. But on the site and her blog I see nothing about preventing others ending up in her shoes, only complaints about mothers and their #PronatalistPrivilege (really).

    I guess misery does love company, and why try and stem the flow of miserable recruits when it’s what you do for a living? But it’s a pity, you can see from the comments people aren’t being told, and it looks like Jody ain’t gonna tell them either.

    Latest comments on the front page

    “Some days I feel I just cant carry on and no longer want to be here. I feel so alone in my grief for a life I will never have.”

    “wishing I knew different when I had made the decision to put a family on hold. I resented work, for taking the best years of my life, my prime”

    “In my workplace just yesterday a 20 something told me it would be disastrous for her career if she became pregnant. There is something seriously wrong in our society.”

    “Grieving hugely. Feel life is over. Breaking down in huge waves…I always was going to be a great mum.”

  13. horsemanbombadil says:

    “I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.”

    Ahahahahahaahaha. Stop. I can’t breathe.

    Sure sweetie, tell yourself that….its all internal. (Facepalm)

  14. Lexet Blog says:

    Rock bottom. It takes a force that provides the correction to take over. Cough Islam.

    American Christians are weak and contributed to the problem by giving the perception that sinful conduct was godly.

    Anyone who speaks to correct the trend is scoffed at. See Lori Alexander’s page. She is the hyper minority of Christian women.

  15. 7817 says:

    Mr. VFM starting the thread off with a bang.

    But while large numbers of modern Christian women have adopted the UMC life script, they aren’t getting the warnings not to overdo it that their secular sisters are receiving.

    Is this because church people are to nice to point out the truth? Or does it have to do with the idea that “not settling” comes from God, and therefore we can’t argue with it?

  16. 7817 says:

    Or third option, is Rollo right in saying that the Feminine Imperative has functionally replaced the Holy Spirit in some of these churches, and that’s why the church girls have no brakes on their feminist train?

  17. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, “Is this because church people are to nice to point out the truth? Or does it have to do with the idea that “not settling” comes from God, and therefore we can’t argue with it?”

    No, its because you can’t now tell women anything at all, that they could perceive as criticism either at the moment, or 20 years down the line. Everyone is terrified to tell women the truth, even women.

    Well, they got what they wanted, unabashed freedom to do whatever and no one can say different.

    You can see how happy they are.

  18. vfm7916 says:

    @Minesweeper – Enlightened comment. That’s why you have to start with your own daughters while they’re young.

    @7817 – Thanks. You can replace Feminine Imperative with Pride. Then it’s quite evident how effectively Lucifer has penetrated many churches.

    @lextet – Convert now, Dhimmi.

  19. tweell says:

    Our last child was born when my wife was 42, but there were 4 children preceding him. My brother’s wife couldn’t get pregnant at 40. From what I’ve seen, starting with children at a normal age makes a big difference when having children after 35. It took a lot longer for my wife to recover from our last than it did from our first, another reason to make babies early.

  20. John Marcucci says:

    “God didn’t send me a husband..” I find this appalling, that any Catholic woman would say this. It speaks volumes on the poor catechesis that has taken place over the past 40 or so years. God sent us Jesus, the Church, the sacraments, a sufficiency of grace. We have to cooperate in what he sends us, not work against it.

  21. Frank K says:

    A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room… I got hit on regularly.

    Oh, the burden of being a young, attractive woman. She could have bagged a keeper back then, but hey, why pass up on the buffet of hot men? Smoke ’em if yo got ’em. You can always settle down later.

    But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore.

    Apparently she is unaware of her younger replacements, who are the current recipients of of the desirable men’s attention.

    Says 39 year old… whatever could have changed?

    Benjamin Franklin said that death and taxes are certain. The Wall should be added to that list.

  22. Frank K says:

    “God didn’t send me a husband..” I find this appalling, that any Catholic woman would say this.

    For all she knows, he sent one or more fine young men along her way, but none were good enough for her. She simply won’t admit that her studies and career came first.

    During my younger years I recall meeting more than a few couples who just couldn’t conceive. They were all much older and were envious when I would tell them that we had another one on the way. They would say inane things like “some couples can get pregnant just by looking at each other”. Nah, we had our kids in our 20’s and early 30’s, as opposed to late 30’s and 40’s.

  23. Nick Mgtow says:

    I found that article amazing.

    Suzanne Venker published recently a warning on that to young women. One of the rates tradcon women to do so.

    Anyway, I thought you might like this one , D, about a woman not liking the slut label. She published the piece on Medium 10 days ago, it has been deleted -surely because of the backlash and the very active redpillsphere on the internet- but, internet never forget. And didn’t forget.

    Anyway, the piece

    https://nationalvanguard.org/2019/07/medium-ive-had-sex-with-well-over-100-men-but-that-does-not-define-me-as-a-slut/

  24. locustsplease says:

    That is an unattractive woman my goodness. If a man was that unattractive people would think him lucky to not b an incel. Think how easy women have it that you do everything wrong you are that unattractive you wait 22 years after highschool and still find a probably moderately attractive man. Shes bottom 1% I dont see a woman that unattractive every month.

    If most women looked like that my season of mgtow would b much easier. Instead im surrounded by foxes and its hard.

  25. c matt says:

    “God didn’t send me a husband..” – I hear you John. Reminds me of that old joke about the guy on the top of roof in a flood, a boat comes by and he waives it on, says he’s waiting for God to rescue him; a helicopter comes by, and he waives it on too, says he’s waiting for God to recuse him. He drowns, and when he meets his Maker, he asks God why He didn’t save him, and God tells him “I sent you a boat and a helicopter?!?”

  26. Minesweeper says:

    @vfm7916 says:”@Minesweeper – Enlightened comment. That’s why you have to start with your own daughters while they’re young.”

    Indeed, maybe sons too !

    @Frank K says: ‘ “A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room… I got hit on regularly.
    But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore.”

    Says 39 year old… whatever could have changed?’

    As Dalrock says, its truly astonishing how disconnected women are from their biological certainties. Its almost like they have never seen this happen before to them or any of their female relatives.

    I’ve known of women who got pregnant, who only knew they were pregnant while giving birth in the bathroom and also (of course) many women who were absolutely assured in themselves they wouldn’t get pregnant and who did – with fantastic results I have to say.

    So it seems to be across the entire female endeavour, an utter disconnection between what they expect and reality, particularly with their reproductive system.

    I’ve never known any men to have this level of disconnect.

  27. Hmm says:

    The whole Christian grrl power entitlement thing comes back to bite them in the hindquarters all the while they are still “waiting for Mr. Right”. They might consider looking for him instead, and they ought to be honest and counsel the younger women to start now. Oh, wait – that would reduce their own chances, because the forty-something guy will certainly prefer a twenty- or thirty-something woman over one his own age.

  28. Cindy says:

    The pattern I’ve seen is that women can conceive at 40 quite easily if they’ve primed the pump, so to speak, with several children before that. If they’ve gone several years since the last child, or had no kids at all, is a lot less likely to happen. That’s just me and my community, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a biological reason there, and not just erroneous pattern-detection on my part. Seems to be “use it or lose it”.

  29. Rpro says:

    I the last days there will be many false prophets. Those we’re the banking industry, school systems, government.. While those girls are busy finding themselves, we’re not there. And the reason it takes decades to find themselves is because it’s men who challenge them. It has been like watching all your local girls being rounded up and shipped off to war. The town is empty and what’s left are low esteem yet entitled. Twenty years later here come the college girls back and looking for love. Broken hearted because we’ve moved on to young girls who wanted a family only. It took two generations for the pied piper to go away. They are the lords wives now. Hope they’re less selfish toward him.

  30. @Minesweeper:
    “Which in a way, is good. It means, this madness will come to an end.”
    I had a quick search and it seems that daughters of single mothers are more likely to become so themselves.
    For example,
    http://www.divorcereform.org/teenmoms.html

  31. cynthia says:

    God hasn’t willed for you to be alone.

    That’s a result of your own choices.

    Do these women ever stop to consider the fact that maybe they’ve left the path God wanted them to follow?

    Catholic women playing into this feel-good vending machine mega-church Jesus-is-your-bestie script really make me sad. They should know better than that. Wishful thinking, magical gifts from heaven, simply as a result of being “authentic” or “true to yourself” or “doing the right thing”, whatever that means. Please. It’s softcore paganism. There are miracles in this world but you can’t expect them. I watched a female family member die in agony from stage four cancer, convinced to the last that God was going to pull those tumors from her body and make her whole again. None of us deserve what we want; none of us deserve anything. What happened to the female understanding and embrace of grace?

    God is not going to gift wrap a man and drop him on your doorstep.

  32. Pingback: Marriage and children were always her priority. | Reaction Times

  33. cynthia says:

    @Minesweeper

    Most girls get their information on their reproductive systems from Sex Ed at school. I cannot once ever remember being taught the relationship between age and fertility, or even that you’re only fertile a few days out of your cycle. Babies are made out to be the enemy. School is focused on maintaining the narrative.

  34. info says:

    Is it just me or does it look like judgment begins at the house of god?

  35. Jim Christian says:

    These broads are psychos, all of them. DC’s professional ranks are filled with them. 28-40 years old, looking madly about for a guy. They were my bread and butter for two decades after my divorce in 1992ish. You’d soon discovers that every one of them on the M&Ms of the Depressed, drinkers, smokers, chicks with seriously toxic wombs. Throw in an occasional abortion, 20 years on hormonal birth control, fisting, all the stuff the girls do now, they must be hideous these days. Do the IVF doctors take all this into consideration before they take these women’s money? They’re defective. HOW do you make a baby through, what was it called, a Goose’s Sluice? Can’t remember, but it was funny. Anyway, that. Good luck, but my opinion is, these depicted are all the same.

  36. Minesweeper says:

    @cynthia says:@Minesweeper “Most girls get their information on their reproductive systems from Sex Ed at school. I cannot once ever remember being taught the relationship between age and fertility, or even that you’re only fertile a few days out of your cycle. —Babies are made out to be the enemy—”

    Well, you can sure bet they aren’t being taught this at the local mosque. So feminism really is destroying our entire civilisation. Amazing how fast it starts. Amazing how easily women are led into their own ruin.

    Yet again, civilisation only lasts 3 generations. I wonder what happens when we reach the end of the 3rd gen of hard core feminism. so 1960+75 = 2035.

    I guess we are in that final stage anyway.

  37. Jim Christian says:

    Anyone see this one? Perfect example, except I barely remember this chick.
    https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2019/07/14/emily-hart-dies-in-e-scooter-accident/

  38. Minesweeper says:

    @Nikolai Vladivostok says:@Minesweeper: ‘“Which in a way, is good. It means, this madness will come to an end.”
    I had a quick search and it seems that daughters of single mothers are more likely to become so themselves.’

    Yeah, and government bankruptcy isn’t far away. This will only stop when people stop paying for it.

  39. BillyS says:

    No men notice her? She is fairly attractive if her blog has an accurate updated picture.

    I would bet that it is “no men I am at all attracted to” approach me.

  40. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    From Suzanne Venker’s article: My collection of cats, crushing student loans, and pitiful excuse for a car are things that embarrass me. Not my [well over 100] number.

    Truly a pearl of great price!

  41. Anonymous Reader says:

    “God didn’t send me a husband”. Not a new excuse. She could have read Gladys Aylward about that.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/an-attitude-of-abundance/

    It is a recurring topic, for several years. A simple archive search can be instructive.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/09/12/she-did-her-part-but-the-man-didnt-man-up/

    7817
    Or third option, is Rollo right in saying that the Feminine Imperative has functionally replaced the Holy Spirit in some almost all of these churches,

    Put on The Glasses and look at almost any church, to see who really is in charge. Caution, though, once you see it you cannot unsee it, and it will make some churches unbearable, like fingernails down a chalkboard.

    We’ve discussed that a few times also.

    vfm7916
    So rather than decry the decline of family and christianity as all women’s fault while spouting “don’t get married

    Please point to where Dalrock wrote anything like that. Perhaps you read a different article or even a different site, and commented here by mistake?

  42. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    No men notice her? She is fairly attractive if her blog has an accurate updated picture.

    Social media is notorious for outdated, filtered, and Photoshopped photos.

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    No men notice her? She is fairly attractive if her blog has an accurate updated picture.

    Once again, you are not the target market. Plus that’s likely a rather large “if” assumption.

  44. Anonymous Reader says:

    “You can really see what life is like without fathers and it’s dreadful.”

    No, it’s liberating. Just ask them and their sistas over a box of whine wine.

    Sure they want a man, they might even want a wedding. They just don’t want a husband.

    Minesweeper
    Which in a way, is good. It means, this madness will come to an end.

    Eventually. That could be a while. Best to work on the receptive ones to get out of that swamp. Better to work on younger girls to not get in it, which I admit is an uphill fight.

    “The market can remain irrationsl longer than you can remain solvent” — Keynes

  45. Novaseeker says:

    I would bet that it is “no men I am at all attracted to” approach me.

    Yes. It’s the same as Kate Bolick wrote — get to the big room, few men there and they aren’t the ones you want to date. Both Bolick and Hale got plenty of male attention from attractive men in their primes, and their primes lasted longer than most due to nice genetics (aka “unearned privilege” ahem). All she is noting is how it doesn’t last forever, and to be honest her denial is also typical (oh it’s more internal than external, I look better at 39 than I did at 29 … lolol).

  46. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    Emily Stimpson Chapman decided to adopt. I wonder if Wendy Griffith will as well?

    Question: how would it affect her brand, especially book tours? Would her target market be interested in buying a book about “Adopting When Menopausal”? Sure, there’s a market for anything she writes, no matter how foolish, but…it might slow her down on book tours, too.

  47. Anonymous Reader says:

    Minesweeper
    As Dalrock says, its truly astonishing how disconnected women are from their biological certainties. Its almost like they have never seen this happen before to them or any of their female relatives.

    Solipsism means being perpetually surprised: “I didn’t think this could happen to Special MEEEE!”
    Plus the usual female disconnect between “cause” and “effect” plays a role as well.

  48. American says:

    Feminism is but a dung hill, and I a cock that stands on it to crow.

  49. Anon says:

    tweel,

    My brother’s wife couldn’t get pregnant at 40. From what I’ve seen, starting with children at a normal age makes a big difference when having children after 35.

    Medically, this is an instance of a well-operating machine being able to last longer.

    The problem is, a lot of women see other women have Child #5 at 42, and think they can have Child #1 at 42.

    In the Duggar and Bates families, the wives were able to maintain regular output until age 44 or so.

  50. Anon says:

    As Dalrock says, its truly astonishing how disconnected women are from their biological certainties. Its almost like they have never seen this happen before to them or any of their female relatives.

    Consider that, for each of these women, their father + taxpayer paid $500K+ for their total education (K-12 and college). If there is a graduate degree, even more.

    At the same time, go to any rural area in the most destitute third-world country. The illiterate young women over there have no illusions about when their fertility will end. So the illiterate third-world peasants actually know more about something of direct importance to their lives than these women on whom $500K+ was spent to credential (but not educate) them.

  51. BillyS says:

    Adoption can have its own huge pile of problems.

  52. TheTraveler says:

    Personally, I think she’s cute. Yes, really.

    She was probably even cuter when she was of what used to be called “marriageable age.” And with her fancy education/career/self-actualization, in her mid 20s (when I would have been in my early 30s) she wouldn’t have so much as spit in the direction of guys like me (fit, good career–but NOT elite like hers tho!, hard worker, at least as easy on the eye as she–but not Chad McStudly). From liberated elite-career-wimminz like her, pretending to be looking for a guy like me, I got a lot of “you’re a nice guy, but…” (usually via text message).

    As a Catholic, it ticks me off no end when selfish, stupid choices are rationalized away with ridiculous theological constructs–suffering with the saints, my aunt fanny!

    A few years ago, I was isolated in a new location. I needed some information; the only person I knew who could answer it was a female friend, whose flakiness had caused me to write her off long since. So we start talking for the first time in almost a year; out of the blue, sighing, she tells me how unhappy she is to be single. Hint, hint–right? So I asked her to come visit, making clear I intended to start down the road to marriage. NO, she said, in an odd mixture of kindness and bureaucratic formality. She’s almost 38 now, and even if she’s engaged, headed down the same road as Miss Hangin’ with the Saints. It’s a pandemic.

  53. BillyS says:

    Minesweeper,

    Government spending more than it takes in has already lasted far longer than I ever thought it could, with no end in sight. It will crash at some point and the longer we put off that crash the harder it will be.

    My money is on massive hyperinflation, but time will tell. (Pun intended)

  54. Anonymous Reader says:

    DIsclaimer: I don’t watch much TV. Le Tour being one exception. So I missed the addition of Twitter spats to TV shows that were already trainwrecks. It’s like strapping dynamite onto the front of the engine…

    https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/bachelorette-hannah-luke-sex-twitter-instagram-home.amp

    Special bonus for this site: “Yeah, I screwed that other man but Jesus still loves me” (paraphrase). Such a prize to be won!

    Or, why men need to be able to see women clearly.

  55. Anonymous Reader says:

    PS: Remember, “marriage” is the priority of The Bachelorette. Yah betcha.

  56. Pingback: Sex difference in evaluating attractiveness or no? | Christianity and masculinity

  57. Asaph says:

    It’s true. You’re partially correct. Information about naturalism and fertility are not taught to women in mosques (because women arent allowed there), but they are being taught at Muslim conventions (i.e. MUNA), groups, and at home.

  58. Spike says:

    Are us men, who remember all too well how the young women like Stimson in their attractive years spurned us and humiliated us if we showed interest in them, supposed to be sympathetic?
    “We didn’t get the message!” Stimson says with shock and horror. I say No. We were giving you the message, when we were telling you we were interested in getting married. Older women were giving you the message when they warned you about spinsterhood. Your brother’s serious friend who married an Asian girl was giving you the message, as was that nerdy Christian girl who you laughed at because “ you know why she married young”, and how “Her husband was the only guy she’s ever going to be with….” with a laugh.
    My son got married this week to an Eastern European girl whose parents drummed marriage into her, who approached relationships with serious intent, who looked for a husband, not a boyfriend. She was prepared to act on any announcement of intention she encountered. She had checks and balances ready to go. She wasn’t insulted and indeed didn’t bat an eyelid when my son asked her to present him the results of a comprehensive medical examination, which he also did and presented to her. She is prepared to leave a job she loves for him should his work dictate.
    Women have got to understand that marriage isn’t something that just happens to them. They actively have to prioritize it in their lives, and knowing that it can take a long time, prioritize it as soon as possible.

  59. DeNihilist says:

    I read these supposed adult wahmen’s columns, and think I am reading a sixth graders diary.

  60. Jack says:

    I don’t believe these women are chaste in waiting for marriage. They have GOT to be getting some on the down low. If they were chaste, they wouldn’t be able to wait 20 years for marriage, and if they could, then they really shouldn’t get married.

  61. Joe says:

    Anonymous Reader says:
    July 17, 2019 at 8:13 pm
    “God didn’t send me a husband”. Not a new excuse. ”
    ***********************************************

    God didn’t “send” my wife one either. God sent ME one. She kept shoving herself in front of my face.
    “I’ll help you” she said.
    “Hey, I could use some at my house” she said.
    “Thanks for helping me at my house. I’ll make you dinner” she said.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/09/13/feminine-wiles/

    I’ve told my wife “had you not interrupted me to tell me you could help me and invited yourself over, we’d have never gotten married”.
    Her: “Really? Why do you think that”.
    Me: “Don’t show no interst, won’t BE no intrest”.
    Her: Well, you were The One I was supposed to be with. God would have done it another way”.
    Me: “We’ll never know. You pretty much took that task on yourself”.

    I think girls these days maybe don’t do what my wife did. They wait around and think it will “just happen”.

    PS
    When she came over that day to paint, I gave her the hard job, painting all the trim around windows and doors.

  62. Acksiom says:

    >Please point to where Dalrock wrote anything like that. Perhaps you read a different article or even a different site, and commented here by mistake?

    He’s strawmanning MGTOW as being exclusively woman-blaming because he can’t — or won’t, but probably can’t — sensibly respond to the more fundamental issues raised, such as technological advances increasing male liberation which causes higher price-setting for traditional masculine responsibilities. And it’s not like that model of things is new to him. He’s been reading about it here for over six months now at least.

    He doesn’t want to pay men his own share of the higher price that their traditional commitment to his community is increasingly worth, but he also can’t be bothered to do anything about the pernicious incentives driving the risks of such commitments higher either. So he has to pretend it’s all just about blaming women and cowardice and nothing else, because otherwise he would have admit his own share of the responsibility for the conditions driving men away from community commitment. That’s why his list ends with more calls to serve others — and doesn’t that sound creepily familiar — with no explanation of What’s In It For Men. No mention of any reciprocation from his community, let alone he himself; just endless servitude of both without reward. No mention of the National Parents Organization. No mention of Vasalgel. No guarantees, no promises, no nothing. Just service, service, service. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

    No unlike Pastor Foster six months ago: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/is-christian-marriage-only-for-elite-women/ . Never heard back from him, did we? And there’s vfm7916 in that same thread, where I explained all of the above at length. So none of this is new information to him. Vfm7916’s just conveniently ignoring it.

  63. Oscar says:

    Well, it’s not as though they weren’t warned.

    Rated: L, H & T for Language, Hilarity and Truth.

  64. cynthia says:

    @Oscar

    They weren’t warned. Nobody is telling girls in their early twenties to knock it off and put relationships/marriage/kids first. NOBODY is saying that to them.

    It may seem obvious to guys around here, but the message is not being communicated to, nor received by, the cohort that needs to hear it the most.

  65. Minesweeper says:

    Had a look at Mandy Hale site + tweets, is it just me or does she seem to have a kinda BPD kink going on. It would explain alot.As these women are pathologically unmarriageable.

  66. Minesweeper says:

    This is not an unattractive woman, there must be something else seriously wrong here .

  67. Oscar says:

    @ cynthia

    They weren’t warned. Nobody is telling girls in their early twenties to knock it off and put relationships/marriage/kids first. NOBODY is saying that to them.

    It may seem obvious to guys around here, but the message is not being communicated to, nor received by, the cohort that needs to hear it the most.

    Well, then you’d better get on that, Ms. Older Woman of the Church.

    Titus 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things—

    4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

  68. Oscar says:

    @ Minesweeper

    This is not an unattractive woman, there must be something else seriously wrong here .

    I think Billy has it right. What she most likely means by “I never meet guys. Like…literally NEVER” is that the men she’s attracted to are no longer attracted to her.

    Well… yeah… they’re going after younger women, because they can.

    But Mandy hasn’t lost her taste for those men, and she doesn’t understand why they’ve lost their taste for her. Obviously, those men have lost their taste for her because her fertility window is nearly closed. Whether those men are consciously aware of that or not is a different matter.

    Unless Mandy knows a crazy, old physicist with a DeLorean, the obvious solution to her self-inflicted problem is for Mandy to set her sights lower, and marry one of the men who is actually attracted to her. She’s much more attractive than the average american woman of 39, so she wouldn’t have to set her sights low. She only needs to look lower than she’s looking now.

    But, of course, Mandy won’t do that. Not yet. Because doing so would contradict the lie she’s been selling since 2010. That lie made her famous, and probably at least moderately wealthy. Anybody would have a really hard time admitting how wrong they were after all that.

    No. Most likely, Mandy will double down, then triple down. And when her ovaries are spent, she’ll marry a man of much lower status than she would have if she’d gotten serious about marriage at 25, or even 35. And then she’ll write a book about how God finally brought her the perfect man in His time.

    It’ll be a best seller.

  69. Bruce says:

    “Medically, this is an instance of a well-operating machine being able to last longer.”

    On the fertility issue, my wife and I started in our 20’s and just had our 8th child at 43 years old. So yes, I think this statement is true.

  70. Asaph says:

    *natalism not naturalism, dang autocorrect

  71. TheTraveler says:

    It just hit me.

    In my 20s and 30s, I was looking for a wife, silly me. But my potential mates were STARS, setting the world on fire–no time for un-cool “extras” like me!

    Now we’re all past our prime. During mine, I was routinely penalized for achievement by gloating cucks who made clear I was paying for what today is called “white male privilege.” The same white knights showered girls like Ms. Superstar with opportunities guys like me couldn’t dream of. The process also planted the seeds of bitter fruit I’ll never partake–visceral barren-womb regrets.

    TNSTAAFL. Guys like me paid up-front, premium prices for shoddy products. Gals like her paid zero down for top quality, but deferred interest piles up even for bargain prices–she’ll never pay it off. Too bad enablers’ agendas never include warnings about consequences.

  72. Bee says:

    Mandy spent 8 years dating a man who would not commit.

    I personally know a woman who spent 12 years dating the same guy. He said he would marry her but he never would take the next step.

    One of the reasons young women tolerate these delays is because the go to grad school and travel while they guy is procrastinating.

    Mandy wasted 7 years, The other woman wasted 11 years. Ladies, if he does not pop the question after 12 months, make a hard, clean break so you can be open to new guys.

  73. Oh no! You mean all this time men are mainly attracted to women with youth, health(fertility), beauty and feminine virtue?
    Well, that’s not very nice!!!!

  74. theShield220 says:

    Emily Stimpson: Why can’t I find a husband?
    Me: [looks at her photo]…do I have to say it?

    Mandy Hale: Why don’t men flock around me anymore?
    Me: [looks at her picture]…Uh, men can smell crazy, and your photos are scratch-n-sniff.

  75. thedeti says:

    Mandy Hale’s entire professional and public identity is that of a single Christian woman. Everything she is, identifies as, knows about, writes about, and holds forth on, revolves around her status as Christian, female, and most importantly, proudly but reluctantly single and searching for A Man To Love Her.

    The most important thing in her life is not her relationship with God or even her gender. No, her entire identity is wrapped up in her singleness and her search for A Man To Complete Her. It’s all she knows about, all she writes about, and all she is.

  76. Damn Crackers says:

    Like I said before here, there needs to be a Protestant equivalent of a nunnery.

  77. Anonymous Reader says:

    cynthia
    It may seem obvious to guys around here, but the message is not being communicated to, nor received by, the cohort that needs to hear it the most.

    Anecdotes are not data, but from my family and social circle I’m hearing mainly the Standard Feminist Model: schooling, career, then consider marriage. It’s the message in high schools to all girls, not just those in AP classes or private Upper Middle Class high schools. It’s also in the mass media, from movies to tunes.

    Novaseeker explained in a previous comment thread how the UMC girls mostly are able to carry this off, to stick the landing when they get close to 27, but there’s resources they have that average girls do not have.

    There is a definite generational cohort issue here, too. Older Boomers knew people who got married right out of High School. GenX knew a few. Millennials probably don’t know any, or it’s so rare as to be a huge exception. The daughter of a friend of mine married a man still in college earlier this year, he’s probably 21 – 22 and she’s 19 – 20. A number of college girls were shocked, because “She’s barely lived any of her life!” and so forth.

    Probably this varies from subgroup to subgroup, but Cynthia’s right – girls are not hearing this. Men with daughters / nieces / etc. should not assume “Oh, the girls all get that message”, because in the current year that is probably not true. Calibrate accordingly.

  78. thedeti says:

    Minesweeper put up a good link.

    I’d encourage everyone to browse Mandy Hale’s twitter account.

    –Christian woman, posts photos of herself in bikini obviously for the express purpose of showing off her in shape, toned, 40 year old body, tacitly saying “look at how hot I am, and I am hotter than my readers nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah”

    –talks about being 40 and hot, 40 and in shape

    –posts about how she is “all the way done with negotiating my worth with men”, tacitly sending out the “NEVER EVER EVER SETTLE” trope. While not realizing that life with one man you choose is a series of compromises and negotiations, just as life in general is.

    –links to Domino’s Pizza joking about how it’s the most significant relationship in her life, revealing dysfunctional relationship with food

    –Obviously has closer relationship with internet memes and popular culture than with God, betraying a lack of seriousness, maturity, grounding and gravitas, which in turn raises the question why any man should see her as a serious marriage partner. I don’t believe women are children, but the dearth of serious thought, introspection and insight sure allows men to point at Twitter feeds like Hale’s and say “see?! See what we mean? She’s acting like a child.”

  79. thedeti says:

    Let’s talk about the elephants in the room, shall we?

    Jack/Sigma Frame brings up a good point. It’s very, very, very difficult for almost all women to make it past 30, unmarried, and refrain from sex. It’s a very, very good bet that most never married women at 30 are not virgins.

    Women like Wendy Griffith and Mandy Hale don’t get attention or burgeoning ministries because of their faith or mature outlooks or abilities at exegesis. They get attention because they’re hot. They get attention because they’re way, way, WAY above average in physical appearance for their ages. They get attention because men like looking at them and because women want to emulate them. Griffith and Hale made their bones on their bodies, not their abilities or their intellect or their skills at evangelism or preaching or ministry.

    Another good example of this is Paula White, who ran a church in Florida with her second husband (now ex-husband) Randy White. She’s now married to her third husband, ex-Journey keyboardist Jonathan Cain, who himself is trying to break into contemporary Christian music.

  80. Dale U says:

    @Spike:
    Congratulations to your son. May he enjoy the wife of his youth (Prov 5:18-19). May God bless their life-long marriage.

  81. thedeti says:

    Oscar, Cynthia, AR

    It may seem obvious to guys around here, but the message is not being communicated to, nor received by, the cohort that needs to hear it the most.

    Probably this varies from subgroup to subgroup, but Cynthia’s right – girls are not hearing this. Men with daughters / nieces / etc. should not assume “Oh, the girls all get that message”, because in the current year that is probably not true. Calibrate accordingly.

    All true. But girls are not “hearing this” because no one is telling them this. And no one is telling them this because

    –anyone who does try to tell them this is shouted down, excoriated, doxxed, forced into joblessness, and their lives ruined. There are accusations of sexism, racism, misogyny. They’re doxxed, they lose their jobs, and are accused of wanting to “keep women down” and “chain them to stoves in kitchen” and “keeping them barefoot and pregnant”. And that’s what people in the churches say to them.

    –people who should be telling them this don’t really believe it. Even their parents and pastors don’t really believe “get married young to a good enough man and build something with him, have his babies, have sex with him, submit to him, and stay married to him”. Even the women who did this don’t really believe this, because of FOMO and YOLO.

  82. 7817 says:

    I don’t believe these women are chaste in waiting for marriage. They have GOT to be getting some on the down low. If they were chaste, they wouldn’t be able to wait 20 years for marriage, and if they could, then they really shouldn’t get married.

    Underrated comment right there.

  83. 7817 says:

    are accused of wanting to “keep women down” and “chain them to stoves in kitchen” and “keeping them barefoot and pregnant”. And that’s what people in the churches say to them.

    Right on man.

    People don’t want to hear bad news, but they Loathe hearing bad news from unattractive people. That’s why unless you have your life in order, and have Game, you’re wasting your time trying to warn people about stuff like this.

  84. thedeti says:

    7817, Jack:

    Very true. I find it very, very hard to believe that any attractive woman with Mandy Hale’s looks has made it past 30 as a virgin. This is particularly so when I know that fully 85% of women over age 30 report having had premarital sex. That includes all women, including Christians. This is also particularly so since we’re living in a post Christian society, where even women who self identify as Christian and have ministries report having had premarital sex, are on their second or third marriages, and don’t make any pretense at adhering to Christian sexual morality.

    I know this because I went to school with women like this, dated a few of them, had sex with a few of them, and married one of them. I also know this because the problems this caused in the one I married were a major contributor to the marital problems we had and almost resulted in the demise of the marriage. And I’m not alone in this. This has caused problems in, and the divorces of, millions of marriages across the English speaking world

  85. Anonymous Reader says:

    Remember we are discussing 40 year olds. Their opinions were formed back when Bill Clinton was leaving office and GW Bush was the new President, and Y2K big news one way or another.

    To high school girls, Mandy Hale is the matronly English Lit teacher who advises them…what?

    Let’s be a bit more current. I first heard this tune last year in a coffee joint when it came up on Pandora / Spotify. Maybe the counter girls put it up. No idea how many teens / early 20’s girls listen to Brynn Elliott, but it’s non zero. Not as catchy as Taylor Swift’s latest, but still I’m sure plenty of girls have this on their phones and therefore in their earbuds.

    There’s a couple of vids on youTube, this one features the lyrics:

    With all of the “Fury Road” propaganda, still they are all girls, and at the hindbrain level they want / crave certain things. There is a real hunger in college girls for masculinity. Too bad the K – 12 indoctrination system, the larger media (like Brynn / Netflix movies / etc.) all have spent years grinding boys down as much as possible, largely erasing masculinity from them. Calibrate accordingly.

    The Glasses are like that yellow oxygen mask on airliners that drops in case of a loss of cabin pressure: once you have yours on, turn to anyone around you and help them.

  86. Anonymous Reader goes to the heart of our problem, looking at the songs girls listen to. For those of you who (like me) won’t listen to it, here are the lyrics. Lots of confusion and pride in these words. Songs like this stir girls’ brains as if with a ladle. They have no idea that laying down one’s pride is too high a price for any woman – and she’d then despise him for doing so.

    You broke up with me and for the life of me
    I couldn’t figure out what I did wrong
    I’m so sorry, I’m usually the first one
    To admit that I did wrong

    Get over yourself, it’s no big deal
    If I run a little faster than you on the playground
    Get over yourself, what’s your problem
    What’s your problem?

    [Chorus]
    Well if you don’t like girls that are stronger than you
    And if you don’t like girls that are faster than you
    And if you don’t like girls that are smarter than you
    Well then you might not like me
    You might not like me

    We had chemistry and you’re one that got away
    And I’ll never forget you
    You were beautiful, you were perfect as you were
    And I didn’t want to fix you

    Get over yourself, it’s no big deal
    If I swim a little faster than you in the neighbor’s pool
    Get over yourself, what’s your problem
    What’s your problem?

    Boy, lay down your pride
    Wipe that tear from your eye
    I’ll take you back, I’ll take you back
    Boy, lay down your pride
    Wipe that tear from your eye
    I’ll take you back, I’ll take you back, boy

  87. BillyS says:

    Another good example of this is Paula White, who ran a church in Florida with her second husband (now ex-husband) Randy White. She’s now married to her third husband, ex-Journey keyboardist Jonathan Cain, who himself is trying to break into contemporary Christian music.

    I remember hearing the intro song for her show and it just repeated “Paula White Today” over and over. Definitely personality focused.

    The marriage I saw ended really fast, which should have caused her at least a bump in her ministry, but I didn’t see it. I was never close to her, but it is clear the self-focus was huge in that one.

  88. thedeti says:

    To high school girls, Mandy Hale is the matronly English Lit teacher who advises them…what?

    Mandy Hale is herself barely more mature or insightful than a high school girl. A brief perusal of her Twitter feed tells me all i need to know.

    Here’s Hale again:

    I never meet guys. Like…literally NEVER. A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room. I had no trouble meeting men. I got hit on regularly. But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore. I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.

    Those last two sentences betray a frightening lack of introspection and understanding. She thinks she’s hotter now at 40 than she was at 30. She thinks men don’t approach her now solely and only because of “an internal change”. The fact that there are some women out there whose knowledge of Scripture is based primarily on Hale’s writings is frankly scary as hell.

  89. John James R says:

    “as women have climbed ever higher, men have been falling behind.”

    That’s quite a lot of self-congratulation over gov’t mandated make work jobs, HR, and middle management affirm action ‘jobs’ that pay 110k a year for the ladies, while men make 70k in the trades while minimalizing and living reasonably. Climb higher then ladies! Enjoy the tax burden and 60-70 hour work weeks while you’re at it. We’ll be out actually living life

  90. Following up Anonymous Reader’s comment about music forming girl’s thinking about life.

    See how top pop stars prepare women for loneliness: music videos from 1985 to now by Christina Aguilera, Whitney Houston, Katy Perry, Hailee Steinfeld, and Fifth Harmony.

    https://fabiusmaximus.com/2019/03/30/music-for-a-new-era-of-romance/

  91. More about Anonymous Reader’s great comment, pointing to “Might Not Like Me” by Brynn Elliott.

    Here’s a comment about it at Genius Lyrics:

    “Elliott’s track is the perfect thing to send your friend post-breakup. It’s not a slap to one’s ex, as much as it’s a cheeky reminder that – ‘Hey, maybe it’s not my fault that I’m so awesome.'”

    https://genius.com/Brynn-elliott-might-not-like-me-lyrics

    Do churches still teach about pride? Not enough, it seems.

  92. Gunner Q says:

    I have zero sympathy or patience for “I thought 40 was still young enough to start having kids”. Listen to Mandy:

    “I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.”

    May God save all MAN-kind from that monster.

  93. white says:

    @Gunner Q
    … cannot unsee !!

  94. DeepThought says:

    As a practicing Muslim, I come here to learn. To see what we as Muslims must not embrace to succeed. A decade ago we opened a local Pre-K to High School and I am active in it. We are diligent that books and speakers represent our faith.

    Christianity is fading in the West, not because of Muslim immigration and conquest but because people protect what they value and many westerners do not value Christianity.

    Christians abandoned one Biblical tenet after another. Why? For acceptance?

    I believe a strong Christian community and Islamic community can live in peace but Christians need to wake up and see what secularism and feminism has done to your religion. Destroy it or it will destroy all faiths.

  95. DeepThought says:

    @tweell

    We had the same experience. We have 6 children and our youngest was born when my wife was 40 (Blessing Baby). My wife ended up having to be spend a week in the hospital due to complications. Doctors decided to induce birth 7 weeks early.

    All kind of bad things can happen and waiting till your mid 30’s is insanity. The fertility chart below should be required memorization.

  96. thedeti says:

    Christians abandoned one Biblical tenet after another. Why? For acceptance?

    Mostly because liberal mores value individual autonomy and freedom above all else. This is the prime feature of liberal Western-style democracy – the promotion and value of individual freedom, which is considered the highest good in and of itself, higher even than adherence to the Christian values that made it possible. A major and related reason is that in such a society, it’s considered “mean” and “mean-spirited” and “unenlightened” to insist on observance of Christian morality, especially Christian sexual morality. Thus, even in churches, one who expects adherence to morality and shames those who don’t adhere to it is himself or herself shamed, shouted down, excoriated, called names, professionally and socially ostracized, and the like – even by people who profess to believe the same things they do.

    For example, Lori Alexander, a Christian blogger, points out that men prefer debt free, tattoo-less virgins for marriage. Sheila Gregoire and her daughter, along with countless others, then proceeded to very publicly lose their composure in blog posts. Alexander was roundly torn a new one for observing a very simple truth – men don’t want to marry tatted up debt laden sluts. And the people tearing her a new one themselves profess Christ.

  97. DeepThought says:

    @Minesweeper
    “This is not an unattractive woman, there must be something else seriously wrong here .”

    Look at her attire. Does this look like a woman screaming marry me?

    Modesty? Nope
    Feminine in the traditional none slutty way? Nope
    Self centered? Big YES!

    I can guarantee you that the number of men who have slept with her is in multiple digits.

  98. Oscar says:

    @ DeepThought

    I believe a strong Christian community and Islamic community can live in peace

    Right up to the point when Muslims become a big enough percentage of the population. Then, the Muslims who choose to behave like their prophet make life intolerable for the Christians.

  99. DeepThought says:

    @thedeti

    Valid points.

    I think one of the biggest mistakes was Christianity abandoning modesty for both sexes. It is something we occasionally have to deal with locally. There have been several crucial conversations that have led to heated arguments when some of our members try to stretch the rules. But we hold firm.

    Long pants, long sleeves. Shirts to the neck. That requirement, in our mosque, are not just for women in our mosques. It is for men.

    I personally believe without modesty returning to America, feminism will continue to be a cancer.

  100. DeepThought says:

    @Oscar

    For centuries the Turks ruled Greece, Egypt and the Balkans. Guess what. Christians still live in those lands.

    You are letting preconceived notions cloud your judgement. For peace to exist, we must work together to fight our common enemy.

    Secularism and feminism will destroy us all if we do not unite.

  101. DeepThought says:

    Mandy Hale is a Christian? Go read her Twitter feed. She has abandoned God. She embraces a homosexual who thinks Mike Pence’s Christianity is evil.
    “What an inspiring morning at breakfast with @PeteButtigieg! He spoke of hope & equality & the importance of building each other up ❤️ What a stark & beautiful contrast from our president’s hate rallies.”

    She supports abortion. Homosexuality. Attacks traditional Christians. Rotates through a series of boyfriends.

    No wonder she tried to derail real Christian women. She is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

  102. feeriker says:

    I read these supposed adult wahmen’s columns, and think I am reading a sixth graders diary.

    For all practical intents and purposes, that is what exactly what you’re reading. Most women’s mental ages arrest themselves at about 16, at their most mature.

  103. Nick Mgtow says:

    Deepthought, the past show that no, two religions can’t cohabitate.

  104. DeepThought hits a deep note with this: “I think one of the biggest mistakes was Christianity abandoning modesty for both sexes. …I personally believe without modesty returning to America, feminism will continue to be a cancer.”

    Allan Bloom’s “Closing of the American Mind” is one of the must-read books for anyone seeking to understand our situation. Here is what he says about modesty.

    “Central to the feminist project is the suppression of modesty, in which the sexual revolution played a critical preparatory role …Modesty in the old dispensation was the female virtue, because it governed the powerful desire that related men to women, providing a gratification in harmony with the procreation and rearing of children, the risk and responsibility of which fell naturally – that is, biologically – on women. …

    “Female modesty extends sexual differentiation from the sexual act to the whole of life. It makes men and women always men and women. The consciousness of directedness toward one another, and its attractions and inhibitions, inform every common deed.”

    See the rest of this section here:

    https://fabiusmaximus.com/2016/04/12/new-gender-roles-means-new-world-95728/

  105. vfm7916 says:

    @Acksiom and Anonymous Reader.

    The comment you reference is aimed at MGTOWs that comment here, like Acksiom. I’ve heard and seen all the stuff for years. I don’t need to rehash it.

    Those who follow MGTOW have opted out family, culture, and civilization unless they follow the Warrior or Religious paths. That’s ok. You do you.

    That’s really the thing about being married, having kids, and serving God: It’s not about you anymore. And since the point of Dalrocks post is “Who is teaching young christian girls about the failures of waiting”, my response is apropos: You, as the red pilled christian man, are the one to teach young girls, your daughters, beginning when they learn to talk, about life, marriage, being a happy woman, etc.

    To do so, you have to meet certain pre-conditions, such as being married to a woman who you’ve settled for. It ain’t a 10 Unicorn. Because to address the future problems you have to set your desire for an 18 year old virgin 8 aside and get the job done that God commanded you to do.

    You’re not a servant leader or king, but you’ve got a job to do. It’s rewarding; there’s risk. If you’re white, christian, and educated, and in a first time marriage for both, your probability of divorce is <15%. Don't marry a slut or do shit to make those odds go up.

    So feel free to blather on about all the risks of marriage; MGTOW is feminism for males, and an equally effective rationalization hamster. You're removing yourselves just as effectively from civilization and the gene pool as feminists are. The one favor I'd ask is that you do so quietly, and not attempt to poison men against marriage and family. The feminists do a good enough job with that on women (again, as Dalrock is noting in the OP)

  106. BillyS says:

    Deep Though,

    Islam has its own pile of troubles. We just haven’t seen them yet because it is a lower percent of the population here. How many Christians are free in Iraq now? Iran? Even Egypt?

    Lots of reasons that Islam allowed Christians at some times, but that is deeper than you realize and this is not the place to evangelize for Islam.

    True Christianity remains strong, though much Churchianity that you see now is really messed up. Always has been that way. God has always had a remnant that makes it through and drives later change.

    Many view Christianity as merely a fad, but it is a long term direction that will ultimate result in Jesus ruling and reigning on the earth. That remains fixed, though we don’t know the timing. Islam is built on a very flawed foundation and will not ultimately last, though it is sure to cause even more harm along the way.

    One thing being bad (modern liberalism) doesn’t make another good (Islam) by default.

  107. Anonymous Reader says:

    vfm7916
    The comment you reference is aimed at MGTOWs that comment here, like Acksiom

  108. thedeti says:

    While I’m not Dalrock and it’s not my blog, I’d just not want to see this thread get bogged down in religious differences. As contentious and ultimately fruitless as the Catholic v. Prot and “which brand of Christianity allows divorce and why” discussions are, a “Christianity v. Islam” discussion promises to be even worse. It is respectfully suggested that everyone tread lightly.

  109. Lost Patrol says:

    AR points out regarding a young woman getting married –

    A number of college girls were shocked, because “She’s barely lived any of her life!” and so forth.

    I have now heard and seen multiple examples of matronly church ladies with the same lament. The very women that should be encouraging and teaching this young prospective wife how to succeed in the marriage, instead are openly remarking about how the young woman is being deprived, or depriving herself of so many opportunities by settling too early on a steady Eddy. They don’t necessarily say it to the young woman directly, but they definitely let it be known far and wide otherwise.

    @ Larry Kummer

    Thanks for the lyrics. They are just exactly right in showing where we are today.

    “Well if you don’t like girls that are stronger than you
    And if you don’t like girls that are faster than you
    And if you don’t like girls that are smarter than you
    Well then you might not like me
    You might not like me”

    If you know some young men and are in a position to influence or assist them in getting their own set of glasses, point out that the correct response would be “You’re right, I don’t like you. Adios and good luck in your future endeavors”. A pipe dream really, as it’s axiomatic that the thirst is much too great. Most young men have been trained in such a way that they do not have the confidence to gaff off this kind of test. No doubt I would have failed it myself in the day, and did so.

    Imagine a world where the young men say “yeah, it’s true, I am intimidated by strong, fierce, empowered, smart, successful women ™; so — bye!”

    In fact, I wonder how many did say a version of that to Emily/Wendy/Mandy/Anna.

  110. vandicus says:

    @vfm7916

    Nobody is expecting an 18 year old virgin 8 for a wife. Quite obviously, women, especially attractive women, are not looking to get married at 18. It is well known that men have wider tolerance for attractiveness than women, and there isn’t exactly a shortage of men looking to marry.

    The civilization is dying and you can count on 0 hands the number of civilizations that don’t die. It’s not pleasant, in fact it’s pretty awful, but it’s out of your hands.

    If you really think you can do something and want to try, simple acquire wealth and power first. If you think this is beyond you, offer your services to someone who you think can do this. Berating people on the internet won’t accomplish anything, except perhaps for making you feel better.

  111. vfm7916 says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    You still have to go to meetings physically? There’s technology for that now.

  112. white says:

    Islam struggles with feminism and secularism just as much, if not more.

    Just take a trip to Lebanon. Or Turkey. Listen to the ‘Islam’ taught there. I dare you talk about “modesty” to them, lol

    MGTOW Egypt is fast gaining ground, for good reason. Do you even know that?

    But let’s not even talk about women. Last I checked less than 10% of your entire population actively supports having shariah. Much less a Caliphate.

    The only place where Islam is still “patriarchal” is in the imagination of right-leaning Westerners. Which is most likely where DeepThought is from.

  113. Anonymous Reader says:

    Larry
    Allan Bloom’s “Closing of the American Mind” is one of the must-read books for anyone seeking to understand our situation

    With all respect, this is just Boomerposting. If you want to actually communicate with people under 30, referencing a book from the 1980’s isn’t going to work. You might as well quote Reagan speeches at them, or get into an emotional state over Disco music.

    Rollo’s books and Deep Strength’s books are more relevant for men over 20, partly because they were written in the 21st century under modern conditions – Deep Strength’s religious perspective is in one sense timeless (Bible quotes) but also relevant to the current situation.

    Free advice:
    The first step to reclaiming any modesty in any group: men must not fear women. A father can’t correct his daughter’s wardrobe if he’s afraid of her, or afraid of her mother, especially if the mother ignores his opinion on her attire. This is very challenging for Blue Pill / blind men because they’ve been brainwashed to want to “please Mommy”, and that’s one reason why “no fear’ is foundational.

  114. thedeti says:

    @ Lost Patrol:

    I have now heard and seen multiple examples of matronly church ladies with the same lament.

    When I was coming up in the late 80s and early 90s, even then, most women were being encouraged to put off marriage until they got out of college. Sure, they were being encouraged to look for their husbands at college. Getting married before age 21 was low class, working class, white trash, prole behavior, so we were told. The girls getting married right out of high school were unintelligent, dull, stupid, unambitious, and had nothing else going for them besides functioning vaginas. Getting married right out of high school was for the poor girls, the burnouts, the stoners, the weekend alcoholics, the trailer trash, and the already knocked up. So, yeah, let them get married. Just be glad you’re not getting roped into marrying one of these bottom feeders, guys.

    And, admittedly, in the economically depressed small town I grew up in, these were the girls who were getting married. Girls from broken homes, girls who came from poverty class or working class backgrounds, the girls who hung around the scumbags and the drunks, girls who we all knew were already sluts before senior year, and girls who already had a kid out of wedlock marrying their baby daddies.

    The girls who were worth anything were college bound, we were told.

    Fully half of all the women I knew from high school are divorced, regardless of when they married. The problem is everyone’s attitudes toward marriage, really, and not so much when the marriages happened or the ages of the participants.

  115. thedeti says:

    Interestingly, these girls were also the ones taking all the home ec courses. These were the “prepare to be a wife and mother” classes that were still being offered in high school in the early to mid 1980s. These were geared exclusively to girls and mostly to girls who had been identified as “not college bound”.

    Just a different world back then, as AR is pointing out.

  116. Anonymous Reader,

    “If you want to actually communicate with people under 30, referencing a book from the 1980’s isn’t going to work.”

    That’s quite daft. The age of a well-known book indicates it has something to say because – this just in – people haven’t changed. I’ll bet Bloom’s books will be remembered when the ones you mention are long forgotten.

    The extreme case is the great books from the past, which have proven wisdom. That’s why they are remembered when their civilizations have crumbled away.

    Belief that we have to reinvent the wheel because we are so much more awesomely smart than past generations is the same prideful arrogance animating those girls’ pop tunes discussed above.

  117. Anonymous Reader says:

    Well, since Larry Kummer put up the lyrics and Lost Patrol has pointed out where this can lead, I’m putting up the official video for Brynn’s “You might not like me”.

    By the way, vids such as this are pretty common on YouTube – girl pop singer lipsynchs to her song while being videoed in some studio / house / yard / street / etc. They are very easy to produce with modern multimedia gear, it’s not expensive at all. These are just better quality “home movies”, really. But they do reveal quite a bit about the individual girl, and indirectly about the larger cohort of 20-somethings.

    I suggest men view this once with the audio on (Sorry, Larry) and once with the audio off. Pay attention to her body language. Be sure to wear The Glasses, and keep in mind that what they say verbally isn’t always what they are saying with actions.

    Consider the possibility that songs such as this might just be great, big fitness tests. Tests that are being failed every day, by the way.

  118. Anonymous Reader says:

    Once again I pressed “post” too soon.
    Viewing the video of “MIght not like me”, I would not be surprised if she’s an only child, or one of a set of daughters (Dad Of Daughter Only). Note how her dance moves are a mix of aerobics and stripper moves, this is pretty typical in the college / 20-something scene for the more outgoing girls and it’s not exactly new, either.

    Rhetorical question: has any man ever told her “NO” and made it stick?

  119. vfm7916 says:

    @vandicus

    Uh, acquire wealth and power first before trying to save civilization? How about no?

    See, there’s an “after” to every civilization. The people in the “after” are there because their parents bred. How long it takes varies. You don’t need wealth or power to participate, because what you need to transmit to your children is culture, religion, and philosophy. Transferring property helps too, but genes, culture, and religion are the really important ones.

    And yes, one should absolutely use rhetoric against MGTOWs. Our host does the same with complementarian Feminists that poison women’s minds against marriage and headship. Cuckservatives have been trying to take the high moral ground against using effective rhetoric for decades, which is why they can’t even conserve bathrooms for women.

    Complementarian, Cuckservative, and MGTOW are great ways to kill Christianity as can be easily observed.

  120. thedeti says:

    Larry Kummer:

    People haven’t changed, but times have, and do. People don’t change, but the contexts and conditions in which they live have, and do.

    Rollo Tomassi’s books and Deep Strength’s books address the specifics of the 21st century sexual marketplace and the current state of intersexual relationships in the current context. We are in uncharted territory in that no society has ever existed before with current levels of female “equality”, economic freedom, and sexual license. Sure, women have always had premarital sex. But female premarital sex has never before in any society been sanctioned, encouraged, and subsidized as it is today.

    Almost all of the risks associated with sex for women have been eliminated or neutralized. And to the extent that sex risks exist, men are told they must bear the costs. If a woman suffers injury or a negative consequence because of sex, the cost is shifted to a man, or men.

    Not only is female extramarital sex allowed, it’s encouraged, almost mandated. And men are being forced to support and finance the society in which this is occurring, while at the same time being told they’re ogres for expecting anything in return for the money being stolen from them to subsidize it.

    Never before in human history has this situation existed. Mr. Bloom’s book doesn’t address these things. Rollo and DS do.

  121. Anonymous Reader’s belief in the current and ephemeral reminds me of an important but seldom mentioned point.

    As our culture decays into CrazyWorld, we need to turn to powerful archetypes – myths and history – from the past – for examples to guide and motivate young men. There is only so much juice in pointing to the male superheroes and Fash&Furious-type guys who dominate our fiction.

    As a Boy Scout leader, I spent about 7 thousand hours on treks with young men. I was the Troop storyteller, telling them tales real and fictional about men in hard times. They loved those stories. Sadly, most had never heard them. We raise our boys in thin soil, without roots, then wonder why they are easily blown over.

    I told them the story of Odysseus and the Odyssey one weekend when we were climbing at Pinnacles National Park. They were enthralled. I was exhausted, walking-climbing-talking.

  122. vfm7916 says:

    I agree with Larry in this. Transmission of culture relies on the history of the past.

  123. vandicus says:

    @vfm7916

    Wealth and power are the means to have an impact. Living a good personal life is about as impactful as recycling is for the environment on the whole saving civilization front.

  124. Jon Patch says:

    Females are born with all of the eggs they will ever drop in ovulation. 40 year old women have very old eggs that are not optimal for conception. Amongst one another, they gloat and carry on into their 50s if they are still having a cycle, as if they could and maybe should have a child. Contemptible.

  125. Opus says:

    Nothing like a beauty contest so I checked out this Mandy Hale. That woman has crazy eyes and so much make up it is difficult to tell what lies underneath, but she at least according to the photos is slim.

    I listened this morning to the first hour of your President’s South Carolina speech as I love nothing more than to wake up each morning to indulge in Hate. I think I have just come upon the reason people like Hale hate your good President so much. I needed a theory as one can never get a clear or rational answer from his critics as to why they Hate so much – doing the very thing they claim never to do. LMAO. My theory is that he is hated because he refuses to virtue-signal on the hottest of all present potatoes. That is he actually supports his own people about half of whom are like him of European ancestry – the horror. By virtue-signalling leftists patronise Africans, Homo-sexualists and Women (none of whom they can stand) but at the same time and in a double whammy, insult and belittle ordinary people who do not get to live in gated communities and other protected enclaves. Leftists do remind me I know not why of that scene in Tolstoy’s War and Peace where Pyotr Rostov a young soldier with his unit for the first time and to gain friends gives away some then all of his sweets [spoiler alert – on about page 1352 – if you can make it that far] he is killed the next day. There is a limit to the number of sweets one may have and no one likes to be the beneficiary of charity. The Widow with her mite is a heroine of the Gospels but actually giving away everything you have is stupid, sometimes terminally.

    Interesting to see that Deep Thought uses the word conquest for what I was told was the welcoming in the west by its natives of his co-religionists. He then tells us that Christians and Muslims can live in peaceful co-existence. I’d like to hear from Anon on that if he would put on his Indian hat. I’d also like to hear but as he is deceased I won’t from my former Muslim acquaintance who used to threaten me and is now known best as The Westminster Bridge Terrorist.

  126. vfm7916 says:

    @vandicus

    False. Civilization is your people. You fail to produce the people, then it’s not your civilization anymore. It’ll be the civilization that belongs to those who produced the people, like DeepThought. Your role might be small but it’s there. You and others like you will choose not to do it, so you get to lose it, or lose your say in what happens after.

  127. TheTraveler says:

    Some observations on the basis for this post:
    – Mrs. Chapman hasn’t updated her website (to which her bio is linked) in four years.
    – The infertility article cited has an irritatingly pious “poor me, suffering with the Lord” feel to it.
    -According to her Instagram, she adopted a baby. And appears deliriously happy being a mom.
    -Her husband looks 50ish with a pleasant demeanor. IOW, going purely by surface appearances, she was lucky. Just 20 years late, lots of kids short.
    -A Catholic bridal website states she was anorexic (!) for six years and had to learn to enjoy eating (!!) again.

    She’s published a lot. She’s had education, career, a measure of fame and glory. She was a fallacious guru, even got sympathy for stupid choices. But reality.

    And grrrrl power churchians will say that the high price of this make-the-best-of-it happiness (far better than one would expect, actually) was worth it.

  128. 7817 says:

    @Lexet Blog
    Where are these “good enough” women? In the church?

    You got legs? Gotta find them yourself. If I have to go find one I’m keeping her or letting a friend know, not some loser.

    Which ones?

    TFW you actually find the one area of the internet that can help you answer these questions and you’re still too spergy to apply any of the info.

    Out of wedlock children and fornication is no longer frowned on in conservative congregations.

    No shit sherlock, but that’s an opportunity for self protection as much as anything else.

    And why would you encourage marriage when it’s 100% risk, 0 benefit to men?

    My kids are benefits. Even if I was to lose them in divorce I’m glad they are here.

    You are a despairing loser. The world doesn’t even care about you enough to try to keep you down like you act. Sort yourself out.

  129. ZMAN says:

    Okay Christian gentleman,,,, here is one for you from the homefront. There is a Christian girl I introduced myself to and briefly spoke with and told her that she could talk to me where I work. A few days later she comes by walking extremely fast a few times by my office without making any eye contact or anything. Except she was dressed to the nines and obviously wanted my attention, yet wasn’t even willing to get to where I could say hello. After walking by oddly a few times she left…..She proceeds to do the same thing the very next day and I was like wtf is wrong with this woman? I already told her my name, got her name, etc. and said she could come by. The day after that she finally is able to make eye contact but I was so freaked out so I just waved her and she waved back. I figured she was nervous or just extremely odd. Yet she is extremely attractive. This all happened a few months back….fast forward to now and this girl starts doing this stuff again except today she pretends to be on the phone and she walks by my office and I say hi and her name and she totally ignores me LOL. This has to be one of the weirdest things I have seen a woman ever do and I am thinking she has serious issues with men or something.
    You know it is quite funny as I am 6’1 185lbs with a lean and athletic frame 26yo. Been told I am handsome a number of times. Good job and furthering my education with no student loan debt at all. These Christian women are seriously off the chain….how do you guys deal with them?
    MGTOW is the only answer I see in the meantime I am laughing at the absurdity at the whole dating scene out here.

  130. vfm7916 says:

    @ZMAN

    MGTOW is not the answer. One weird woman does not the population make. Lots more in the sea.

    Also, TRP and read the sidebar.

  131. 7817 says:

    Acksiom:

    He doesn’t want to pay men his own share of the higher price that their traditional commitment to his community is increasingly worth, but he also can’t be bothered to do anything about the pernicious incentives driving the risks of such commitments higher either.

    As if you could get a woman to commit to you.

    So he has to pretend it’s all just about blaming women and cowardice and nothing else, because otherwise he would have admit his own share of the responsibility for the conditions driving men away from community commitment.

    Well, you are a coward who blames women, and that’s not Mr. VFM’s fault. Ain’t his job to find you a woman.

    No mention of the National Parents Organization. No mention of Vasalgel. No guarantees, no promises, no nothing. Just service, service, service. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

    I guarantee you’re going to have trouble. That’s what Jesus says.

    You are a grasshopper enjoying the benefits of all the work your ancestors did to get you here, and instead of lending a hand for the next generation you prefer to sit and cry because things aren’t easier. Sad!

  132. Joe says:

    ZMAN says:
    July 18, 2019 at 3:32 pm
    Okay Christian gentleman,,,, here is one for you from the homefront. There is a Christian girl I introduced myself to and briefly spoke with and told her that she could talk to me where I work. A few days later she comes by walking extremely fast a few times by my office without making any eye contact or anything. Except she was dressed to the nines and obviously wanted my attention, yet wasn’t even willing to get to where I could say hello. After walking by oddly a few times she left…..She proceeds to do the same thing the very next day and I was like wtf is wrong with this woman? I already told her my name, got her name, etc. and said she could come by. The day after that she finally is able to make eye contact but I was so freaked out so I just waved her and she waved back. I figured she was nervous or just extremely odd. Yet she is extremely attractive. This all happened a few months back….fast forward to now and this girl starts doing this stuff again except today she pretends to be on the phone and she walks by my office and I say hi and her name and she totally ignores me LOL. This has to be one of the weirdest things I have seen a woman ever do and I am thinking she has serious issues with men or something.
    You know it is quite funny as I am 6’1 185lbs with a lean and athletic frame 26yo. Been told I am handsome a number of times. Good job and furthering my education with no student loan debt at all. These Christian women are seriously off the chain….how do you guys deal with them?
    MGTOW is the only answer I see in the meantime I am laughing at the absurdity at the whole dating scene out here.
    *********************************************************************

    Does she have to draw you a picture?

    She’s nervous.

    Next time, stand up, go to her and start a conversation. Spend some time together and then you can figure out if she’s odd.

  133. Opus says:

    @ZMAN

    She is waiting for you to make the next move but that does not mean that when you do she won’t reject you as having failed her stalking fitness test.

  134. Gunner Q says:

    vfm7916 @ 2:27 pm:
    “Complementarian, Cuckservative, and MGTOW are great ways to kill Christianity as can be easily observed.”

    Vox Day lied about Christianity in order to appropriate it for his white nationalism. Learn to think for yourself before you mindlessly follow him into damnation, Vile Faceless Minion.

    You believe all men should breed regardless of circumstances? Fine. You believe MGTOWs are cowards? Fine. But if you believe Christ imposes a duty upon men to breed then you are as deceitful about Scripture as any false priest.

    https://gunnerq.com/2019/06/19/mgtow-life-white-nationalist-anklebiters/

  135. TheTraveler says:

    @Joe
    Your advice is right on.

    That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the guy asking the question. He’s trying to figure out womanly mind games. With HR lurking everywhere, better to ask first, IMHO.

  136. Warthog says:

    @minesweeper “I wonder what happens when we reach the end of the 3rd gen of hard core feminism. so 1960+75 = 2035. I guess we are in that final stage anyway.”

    Your math is a bit off. Starting from the disaster of 1920, and counting 3 full generations of 40 years brings us to 2040. I guess we have a while yet.

  137. Joe says:

    TheTraveler says:
    July 18, 2019 at 4:27 pm
    @Joe
    Your advice is right on.

    That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the guy asking the question. He’s trying to figure out womanly mind games. With HR lurking everywhere, better to ask first, IMHO.
    **********************************************
    Yeah I can’t figure out if she works where he does or was asked to stop by where he works.

    He needs a copy of Bruce Bryans “What Women Want When They Test Men”. He has other good books for guys too. His books are short and to the point.

    I’d give them to my own 28 year old son, but dang, the kid is a natural alpha.

  138. Badman says:

    Thanks for the black pill, Dalrock. It’s tragic, but shouldn’t come as a surprise that the “go grrl” movement is leading Christian women to be infertile in higher numbers.

    I recently came to the realization that the entire progressive social agenda—feminism, abortion, divorce, poundmetoo, homosexuality, transgender, contraception, casual sex, etc.—is at its core about preventing Western Christians from having and raising children. Talk about taking a black pill.

  139. Otto says:

    Opus says: “Not that I was feeling very sympathetic to her feminist/catholic plight but it hardly helped her that when God was dolling out good looks she was the last to be served.”

    A raving beauty? No. On the other hand, she’s not unattractive, and even in her 40’s she remains thin. She has more than enough in the looks department to offer as a wife. Actually, at 40 she looks better than a lot of 20 year old beauties who have let themselves go by 40.

    Given this wedding picture, she seems to have married up and landed a good looking guy.

    As far as infertility goes: she was not infertile, she simply waited too long. Instead of counseling women on infertility, she should be counseling women on the biological realities of waiting to get married and have children.

  140. SirHamster says:

    Vox Day lied about Christianity in order to appropriate it for his white nationalism.

    Quote where Vox lied about Christianity.

    Vox has said MGTOW are dishonest liars, and this claim of yours looks like yet another piece of evidence proving him right.

    I already see one falsehood in your sentence. If you can’t get the basic facts right, you have no business calling others liars.

  141. Otto says:

    “Our last child was born when my wife was 42…”

    I hate hearing these examples of women that had a child in their 40’s. It’s like saying: “I got a football scholarship for college, so you can too.” Yea, it happens (even a lot), but it’s still the exception.

  142. Opus says:

    @Otto

    I was struck actually but how facially similar she is to her husband.

  143. okrahead says:

    Otto:
    Thanks for the pic of your fave. What was her time in the derby? And isn’t that guy a little big for a jockey?

  144. tweell says:

    My oldest granddaughter got married last month, age 20. Perhaps it’s rebellion against her mother, who went wild and is still a mess (no longer hot, amazed she’s still breathing).Perhaps she did listen to her grandmother and me, she had a decent amount of time with us being the built-in babysitters. Perhaps she figured it out herself, she has a decent moral code and is very smart.

    In any case, she used college to get her MRS degree like women used to do. I am proud of her, and working on leaving her my paid-off house so the newlyweds won’t have rent or mortgage to pay. After all, money woes can wreck a marriage.

    The backlash against feminism and churchianity is starting. Do what you can to encourage it.

  145. 7817 says:

    In any case, she used college to get her MRS degree like women used to do. I am proud of her, and working on leaving her my paid-off house so the newlyweds won’t have rent or mortgage to pay. After all, money woes can wreck a marriage.

    Congrats tweell. That’s great to hear, in several ways. Thanks for the encouragement.

  146. Anonymous Reader says:

    I wrote:
    “If you want to actually communicate with people under 30, referencing a book from the 1980’s isn’t going to work.”

    Larry
    That’s quite daft.

    Depends on what the goal is.

    One man’s goal might be to throw a lifeline to men who are drowning in the sludge of feminism by giving them tools to make sense of the situation and eventually take action. Tools to manage women in their families, tools to deal with women at work, a mindset of confidence rather than supplication. One at a time, men can be turned away from despair and all the self-destructive results — including suicide.

    Another man’s goal might be to parade around saying “I was right! In the second term of Ronaldus Magnus I said, “If this goes on, bad things will happen!” and look! Look! 30 years later, bad things have happened! I was right! See? SEE? I Told You So!” This provides self-righteous dopamine hits galore…

    So, Larry…what’s your goal here?

    The age of a well-known book indicates it has something to say because – this just in – people haven’t changed.

    Basic human firmware has not changed, but Blooms’ book is a cultural critique, if i remember correctly. The culture has changed rather radically over the last 30 years, now hasn’t it? Nobody seriously proposed homosexual marriage in 1987; nobody seriously proposed extending full civil rights protection to men wearing dresses then either. Shall I go on?

    I’ll bet Bloom’s books will be remembered when the ones you mention are long forgotten.

    Well, if you wish to put Bloom’s books into the canon of Great Books For Men along with the Homer’s Iliad and Aristotle’s ” Nicomachean Ethics ” and Machiavelli’s “Prince”, etc. it might be too early to really tell. Perhaps in 500 years we can be sure.

    In the mean time, there are 30-something men being frivorced and contemplating suicide, there are 20-something men afraid to approach women but thirsty for a women’s companionship, there are women hungry for masculinity but brainwashed by feminists (like the subject of the OP). Handing those men a copy of Bloom’s “Closing of the American Mind” will not help them with the problems that are grinding them down on a daily basis.

    The extreme case is the great books from the past, which have proven wisdom. That’s why they are remembered when their civilizations have crumbled away.

    You are seriously equating Bloom with Aristotle, Larry? Really?

    Belief that we have to reinvent the wheel because we are so much more awesomely smart than past generations is the same prideful arrogance animating those girls’ pop tunes discussed above.

    Kind of a second-rate strawman, Larry. What’s your goal, again?

    What would you say to a 30 year old man who married a woman he thought had only had “a few” boyfriends…then found out that she’d banged 25 or so men before she met him? What advice would you give him? How would “Closing of the American Mind” help him with day to day living, including her increasingly intense fitness testing because she’s not pregnant yet, dammit!

    Asking for a friend…

  147. Anonymous Reader says:

    @ZMAN

    Frankly, she’s acting like a 7th grade girl, with all that “walking by but not looking but peeking” stuff. It’s like being at a social gathering where a girl comes and sits next to a man, looking straight ahead and saying nothing – in her girlish mind she’s “making a move”, but to a man it’s just some girl sitting nearby while saying nothing.

    She’s making herself sorta available to you but with plausible deniability, and waiting for you to bust a move. Pick a simple, neutral topic and say a few words to her. See how she responds. Read up on Indicators of Interest so you have a clue how to calibrate yourself to her reaction.

    Meta:
    Too many slightly introverted 20-somethings of both sexes hide behind their phone much of the time. It actually can affect a person’s ability to just make simple conversation with anyone else. It’s the modern equivalent of going around with one’s nose in a book, while complaining “No one will talk to me!”.

  148. Anonymous Reader says:

    Larry Kummer
    Anonymous Reader’s belief in the current and ephemeral

    Oh, Larry, either this is a dumb strawman or you are claiming to be able to read my mind.

    Pick one. I”m always ready to test an alleged telepath.

    PS: Don’t just run away this time, either. Stand up and be a man in ASCII text.

  149. vfm7916 says:

    @tweell

    Congrats! What you’re doing is exactly the kind of thing that’s civilization building. I enjoyed reading of your success, and I hope you let us know how it turns out in the future.

  150. Lost Patrol says:

    Talk about taking a black pill.

    Don’t give up the ship Badman. No one is really doing black pill here, least of all Dalrock. Some black humor maybe, but that’s a good thing to have in your pocket for fights like this.

    You’re a partisan now, like most of us that are using manosphere material for local self-improvements, a hand up to the new breed where possible, and recruiting. From Merriam-Webster, Partisan:

    “a member of a body of detached light troops making forays and harassing an enemy”

    “a member of a guerrilla band operating within enemy lines”

    This stage of the conflict tends to go on for quite a while so reject any black pills as soon as possible. I must admit to having swallowed it and wallowed in it to some extent at one point, but there is no fun at all to be had in that. Better to fight.

  151. Bart says:

    @vfm7916

    > The one favor I’d ask is that you do so quietly, and not attempt to poison men against marriage and family.

    No thanks. Not your call. The vast majority of society is dedicated to either ignoring marriage’s problems for men or outright lying about them and pushing men to do it anyway. That’s one of the most painful parts about accepting the red pill, that even most red pill men, who are ostensibly pro-man, don’t really care about men. Seems you would shame and blame MGTOWs as much as any feminist (while also called MGTOW “feminism for males”). Nice game you got going there.

    We all know the problem stems from women’s choices, not men’s. It’s the same reason requiring modesty and chastity of women is much more effective for maintaining a stable social order than to apply it the same way to men.

    I doubt you would push men to bow and scrape before women in their relationships and just offer whatever she demands because vagina’s too important, but that’s what you’re asking of MGTOWs at the marriage-market level. Men who have been frozen out of the marriage market for 10 or 15 years and now refuse to accept Thanksgiving leftovers after a final trip around the carousel are helping balance out the natural order of things. Any society that’s free is so because men have died or risked death rather than accept subjugation. Some things are worth sacrificing your life (or legacy) for.

    Finally, MGTOW is emphatically *not* feminism for males, though it makes a snappy bumper sticker. Feminism stems from women’s inherent solipsism and envy of men and comes bundled as part of the female sexual strategy, eliciting sympathy from men. MGTOW is most often developed from hard-won experience and goes against men’s natural instinct to protect and comfort women. MGTOW has arisen because women have made themselves so dislikable in general and overridden that protective instinct. MGTOW is self-protective, not about envy of women or a sort of relationship union to strike a better deal with women. They’ve simply opted out, and your lack of power over them appears to drive you crazy.

  152. Anonymous Reader says:

    Here’s an interview from 2018 with Brynn Elliot regarding her tune “Might not like me”.
    Read with The Glasses it reveals quite a bit, but even men who can’t see should notice her father is a “YouGoGirll” kind of man.

    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/08/206571/brynn-elliott-might-not-like-me-meaning-music-video

    Elliot is 25. We’ll see what kind of music she’s creating in 4 or 5 years.

  153. Otto says:

    okrahead says: “Thanks for the pic of your fave. What was her time in the derby? And isn’t that guy a little big for a jockey?”

    I’ll hold to my statement: she’s attractive enough to have landed a decent guy had she made it her goal. Her looks were not a barrier to her getting married young.

    This is what I consider unattractive. She may have more natural beauty, but she’s made herself outright ugly. I wouldn’t want to touch any of the women in the after pictures at this link: http://www.returnofkings.com/114644/27-attractive-girls-who-became-ugly-freaks-because-of-feminism

  154. 7817 says:

    @Bart:

    MGTOW has arisen because women have made themselves so dislikable in general and overridden that protective instinct. MGTOW is self-protective, not about envy of women or a sort of relationship union to strike a better deal with women

    LOOOOsseeerrrrrrr

    Go blackpill out of sight somewhere, that’s cringe.

  155. Ohio says:

    @joe @opus etc.

    Thanks for the feedback. I know I need to approach her….the issue is she is so nervous and won’t remain stationary for an approach. The thing is the high interest women give me very obvious signals that I can approach and I do versus girls who are shy or introverted which makes sense of course. I think it just is so confusing out here and I do not want to lose my job if one of these women turns out to be a nutcase. Anyways, being MGTOW or bachelorhood makes life easier for me and less stress trying to kill myself chasing after women giving insane signals and just being weird, but then again here I am.

  156. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    NASA wants to return to the moon. And this time, the crew will include a woman: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/trump-and-nasas-uncertain-moon-plans/593986/

    Astronauts would land near the south pole this time, where they could theoretically make use of water frozen in the surface. And the crew would include, for the first time, a woman.

  157. TheTraveler says:

    The back and forth about whether Mrs. Chapman is good looking or not is instructive. I think she’s very attractive. Many don’t. Some are meh.

    “A lid gor every pot,” they say. It illustrates how just about everyone can find someone to marry–amd mutually consider each other a good “catch.”

  158. thedeti says:

    It’s interesting to me to see the backlash in the comment thread here.

    There’s oldschool MGTOW 1.0, which was “eschew marriage and fatherhood, and have relationships with women on your own terms.”

    There’s MGTOW 2.0, which is “women suck, don’t have relationships with women at all, I hate women because I can’t get one for myself and even if i could they’re not worth it”.

    There’s the Vox Day/Tradcon/Save Western Civ contingent, which is “men must marry and have children and if they don’t, they’re worthless losers”. It’s interesting to see this contingent adopt shaming tactics, most notably “If you don’t agree with me then you are bitter small dicked losers who can’t get laid”.

  159. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    Imagine a world where the young men say “yeah, it’s true, I am intimidated by strong, fierce, empowered, smart, successful women ™; so — bye!”

    Yeah, she and her sistas don’t look very good in terms of a girl to wife up. By the way, this is why part of vetting includes a deep dive into a girl’s social media history; start with Instagram and work outward. I don’t know if Wayback preserves Insta accounts, but it would be useful to find out. Foam cannon at Cancun when she was 21? Hmmmmm….

    There’s another side to this kind of girlPOWer, by the way. A hardcore PUA would look at little Brynn in her official video, chuckle and say something like “Oh, well now: a Tootsie Roll Pop. The hard outer shell is actually rather brittle, and once that’s cracked through it’s all gooey-yummy inside”. Of course the best she could hope for from such PUA is “just another plate”, and more likely she will receive a pump and dump. Because she’s “smarter than you”, yeah, sure she is…

    That’s how the N-count of such a girl tend to increment. Caveat emptor.

    Lost Patrol otra vez:
    This stage of the conflict tends to go on for quite a while so reject any black pills as soon as possible. I must admit to having swallowed it and wallowed in it to some extent at one point, but there is no fun at all to be had in that. Better to fight.

    Cosign. Partisans do not surrender to the black pill.

  160. Anonymous Reader says:

    thedeti
    It’s interesting to me to see the backlash in the comment thread here.

    Not really. It’s getting to be as boring as the Catholic vs. Protestant spats that erupt from time to time. Has anyone ever changed their denomination because of one of those? I seriously doubt it.

    Old school MGTOW were / are more like Huck Finn; get an outfit together, head out for Indian country. They go / went ghost, nobody noticed, because no need for affirmation from anyone else.
    The current freaked-out MGTOW are boring; panic combined with fear combined with shrill screeching, expecting someone to respond to their tired rant…just not interesting. We know you don’t want to marry. Fine.

    TradCons, old school or new school are the other end of the spectrum; “Just marry that slut, don’t worry about all her trips overseas, she probably never really caught chlamydia so children are a sure thing. Just step off of the cliff and God will keep you off of the rocks down at the bottom”. We know you don’t really understand managing risk. Fine.

    Cripes. All y’all just go bark at the moon.

    MGTOW should never leave the house because a meteor might fall on them, stay out of the bathroom because they might slip and fall in the tub, never eat anything because they might choke to death.

    TradCons should sell everything they’ve got, take the money the nearest casino and bet it all on the roulette table. I suggest placing it on 00, to match their situational awareness and ability to calibrate.

  161. 7817 says:

    @Deti

    There’s oldschool MGTOW 1.0, which was “eschew marriage and fatherhood, and have relationships with women on your own terms.”

    I don’t really have a problem with these guys.

    There’s MGTOW 2.0, which is “women suck, don’t have relationships with women at all, I hate women because I can’t get one for myself and even if i could they’re not worth it”.

    If these guys would shut up I wouldn’t have a problem with them. Unfortunately they can’t…

    There’s the Vox Day/Tradcon/Save Western Civ contingent, which is “men must marry and have children and if they don’t, they’re worthless losers”.

    Men who whine about everything are losers.

    Not all men have to marry and have children to serve their purpose in life, but if you openly SAY that, suddenly all the losers who want to whine about women instead of reading the TRP sidebar suddenly think they have carte blanche
    to pour out their bitterness. Nuance is beyond them unfortunately.

    Any MGTOW who wants to give up the bitterness, deal with reality and make the best of his life has my support, whether or not they ever marry, and I would be willing to help in what ways I could. In another thread I offered to pay for the first hour of counseling for the MGTOWs who were whining. There were no takers.

    Losers who want to whine instead of improving and living life better only deserve contempt.

  162. SirHamster says:

    > The one favor I’d ask is that you do so quietly, and not attempt to poison men against marriage and family.

    No thanks. Not your call.

    Don’t be a poisoner. It’s dishonorable.

    There’s the Vox Day/Tradcon/Save Western Civ contingent, which is “men must marry and have children and if they don’t, they’re worthless losers”.

    Strawman. If you have to lie about what your opponent’s position is, you’ve adopted wishful thinking and have already lost.

    VD is not Tradcon, though he supports saving Western Civ.

    It doesn’t require that every man marry, but marriage and children are absolutely necessary for Western Civ to continue.

    The most important bit is that the people who matter are already creating families and taking hold of the future. You can join them and share the future, or not. But MGTOW is a dead end, and it doesn’t help young men to mold them into MGTOWs.

    Withdrawal isn’t going to make women take the lead and fix the broken culture. The only fix is men taking it back. MGTOW doesn’t do that. If it’s a stepping stone to restoration, fine. But if it’s just going to be blackpilled navel-gazing enjoying the decline, then it’s a servant of the destroyer and needs to die like feminism.

  163. 7817 says:

    The only fix is men taking it back. MGTOW doesn’t do that. If it’s a stepping stone to restoration, fine. But if it’s just going to be blackpilled navel-gazing enjoying the decline, then it’s a servant of the destroyer and needs to die like feminism.

    Said better then I could, especially the bit about the stepping stone.

  164. Acksiom says:

    >>Christians abandoned one Biblical tenet after another. Why? For acceptance?

    >Mostly because liberal mores value individual autonomy and freedom above all else.

    No, that’s more like ‘how’. The actual ‘why’ is because reduced childbirth mortality and other technological advances undermined christianity’s historical advantages as a superior means of community formation and growth.

    Also, in the USA the preeminence of individual autonomy and freedom precedes the liberal/conservative distinction. It’s literally Constitutional.

  165. Splashman says:

    @vfm7916, I’m with you. “The future belongs to those who show up.”

    My oldest girl (19) is ready for marriage, and both she and I are actively looking for her husband. Our list of requirements is limited to these three things: 1) he fears God, 2) he’s a hard worker, and 3) he loves to learn. My daughter is slender and in great shape, I’d say 6 or 7 looks-wise, loves to cook and manage our house (grocery shopping, cleaning, directing the younger kids, etc.), has developed her musical talents (plays piano/sings hymns and golden oldies at local rest home), and loves to learn from me on virtually any subject. She didn’t turn out like this through dumb luck; I invested a LOT of time and energy into teaching her and the other kids (incl. homeschooling), and even more time and energy into maintaining a good relationship with them.

    It can be done. But not by sending kids off to school and hoping for the best.

  166. Luke says:

    tweell says:
    July 18, 2019 at 5:35 pm
    “My oldest granddaughter got married last month, age 20. Perhaps it’s rebellion against her mother, who went wild and is still a mess (no longer hot, amazed she’s still breathing).Perhaps she did listen to her grandmother and me, she had a decent amount of time with us being the built-in babysitters. Perhaps she figured it out herself, she has a decent moral code and is very smart.

    In any case, she used college to get her MRS degree like women used to do. I am proud of her, and working on leaving her my paid-off house so the newlyweds won’t have rent or mortgage to pay. After all, money woes can wreck a marriage.”

    NO NO NO NO!!!

    Do NOT just give a woman a house! You need to set things up (a trust, in a trusted, probably MALE relative’s name, whatever) so that if she frivorces him, she loses the right to live there. The reverse, of course, too, but that’s most unlikely if she doesn’t marry an obvious “Oh F NO!” man.

    As I wrote elsewhere:

    “Excepting obvious bad boys (multiple prison terms, garish tattoos, high school drop out, plays in rock band after age 40, owns a motorcycle but not a car, shoulder-length hair, no obvious means of support, no nonparasitical relationships, no father in life, longterm pothead/alkie, other than honorable discharge from military, etc.), men (unlike women now) don’t commonly leave wives (esp. with minor children) without severe provocation. That would include repeated financial suicide with no end forseeable, permanent voluntary deadbedding, severe damage to his career or extended family situations, adult children from previous partners that she just will not make move out, constant caustic criticism (at a level that a rational person on a jury might well not convict of murder if they knew the situation fully), or such.

    The situation remains as it has long been: if a woman avoids marrying an obvious “Oh F no!” man, she pretty much only gets divorced if SHE causes (or files) for it. Don’t want to be divorced, don’t file for it. It’s not that complicated.”

  167. Oscar says:

    @ DeepThought

    For centuries the Turks ruled Greece, Egypt and the Balkans. Guess what. Christians still live in those lands.

    Seriously? You’re really going to to list Turkey, Greece, Egypt and the Balkans as success stories?

    Yes, I’m aware that Christians still live there. I’m also aware that Muslims conquered Turkey and slaughtered Christians in the Hagia Sophia. I’m aware that the Turks committed genocide against Armenian Christians. I’m aware that the Greeks fought desperate wars to rid themselves of Muslim rule. I’m aware that Christians in Egypt welcomed Muslims, and now Coptic Christians are a persecuted minority in Egypt. I’m aware of the Muslim conquest of the Balkans, and the subsequent wars that resulted for centuries.

    Thanks for proving my point. You did it better than I ever could have.

    You are letting preconceived notions cloud your judgement. For peace to exist, we must work together to fight our common enemy.

    On the contrary, I’m letting history – you know, what actually happened, as opposed to your candy coated, poisonous lies – illuminate my judgement. Go spread your politically correct, pro-Muslim propaganda somewhere else. I’m not buying it.

    And don’t give me your “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” bullshit either. If we Christians allow you Muslims to reach a high enough percentage of the population in our lands, you’ll do the same things you did in Turkey, Greece, Egypt and the Balkans.

    No thanks.

    https://assetsds.cdnedge.bluemix.net/sites/default/files/styles/very_big_1/public/feature/images/armenia_genocide.jpg?itok=2_jNNJ4b

    https://www.thedailystar.net/wide-angle/europe/the-armenian-genocide-and-turkeys-denial-89185

  168. She Who Must Be Obeyed says:

    The Slave Trade hath its genesis in an unholy agreement between Queen Anne…the last English monarch before the Hanovers…and the Crown of Spain…the British are the ones to whom guilt can be properly assigned; they made untold fortunes off the sweat of the Negro; only until immediately after they were expelled from the American colonies and their monopoly was terminated did their tune change; and, through their women (such as Lady Cavendish) did they castigate the American South for their perpetuation of the institution. Julia Tyler; President Tyler’s wife; artfully deconstructed the true British motivations and ulterior motives behind their campaign to “shame the South” into its discontinuation.

    “It is said that the crocodile doth cry most piteously; but woe to the traveler who is beguiled by its tears!”

    She presciently recognized that the Powers that Be in 1850’s England manipulated the British Press; who in turn manipulated the Collective British Feminine Aristocracy into using sentimentality as a veil for their actual motivation; the destabilization of the still relatively fragile American nation. History; of course repeats itself; and an almost identical tactic was utilized during the apartheid years in South Africa; effectively destroying the nation…and at the Current Hour…with the “immigrant detention camps” on the Mexican / U.S. border. There is nothing new under the sun.

  169. JD says:

    Past work experience had co-worker who married relatively young, around her mid 20s, and is now around 36. Apparently she’s going through a separation where she decided to move out. She and her husband are childless which I think was a deliberate lifestyle choice. All her siblings are grow up , married, and have children or expecting. I overheard her speak to another (female) co-worker in the most hushed voice, after her parents expressed their disappointment of her childless life, that children are an option and that there are other ways of living a fulfilled life. She had dedicated the past ten years largely to her career which she can be replaced despite the position being in much need (I’ll be even more clearer: the position is in demand, not so much herself). I’d argue her Type A personality has lent itself to her current situation.

    She was raised in a wealthy suburb and immediately moved to the city for graduate school and has lived there ever since, living the city life. Now, you’d never would have known this since almost everything about her screams Whole Foods and Pier One Imports. Though she has a good sense of fashion and has formal education, nothing screams sophisticated nor does she come across as particularly bright or witty. To city natives she’s a transplant and always will be.

    Now, though cute (as one male co-worker puts it), she’s on the verge of a divorce and has no fruit to show for her decade long marriage besides a relatively expensive wedding ring (gotta say, the husband did a good job on selecting that piece of jewelry). She could probably pick up another suitor given her looks and level of education, but within three years she’s close to 40 and if her new suitor wants a child and she’s still “nope, my body and lifestyle”, if he has any dignity, he would just drop her, or, if he’s above her level of narcissism and material greed, would just use for her looks, body, and then dump her until said features have not stirred his hormones and loins anymore. But then again she may someday see the error of her ways and, maybe, God willing, find a new husband and be open to bearing a child. Or not. She could end up with a “life partner” at 45 and be an aging blond and blue-eyed “favorite aunt” to all her nieces and nephews.

    I do not remember who said it, but whomever did that person had a very good point, and I paraphrase: “Women are more happy at home raising kids than living the Sex and the City lifestyle and being a careerist. Unless that woman has some unique talent or skillset that produces a commodity that is particularly unique in which the world can extract something from it (e.g. Marie Curie, Anne Coulter) a childless woman out of choice is a waste.” Of course, there are exceptions.

  170. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Luke: Do NOT just give a woman a house! You need to set things up (a trust, in a trusted, probably MALE relative’s name, whatever) so that if she frivorces him, she loses the right to live there.

    A man tried that. Had his house in a trust. During his frivorce, the judge ruled that the man can keep the house — but he must buy his ex-wife another house of equal value.

  171. Hugh Mann says:

    The MGTOW brigade have a point – in that the laws relating to divorce are heavily biased against men, that no-fault divorce essentially offers cash and prizes to women for breaking up a family.

    But if you want to have kids (either inside or outside wedlock – cohabitation won’t save you), it’s a risk you have to take (although I can see the appeal of getting your house/career sorted then playing Billy Beta to a series of hopeful thirtysomethings in their epiphany phase).

    “I recently came to the realization that the entire progressive social agenda—feminism, abortion, divorce, poundmetoo, homosexuality, transgender, contraception, casual sex, etc.—is at its core about preventing Western Christians from having and raising children.”

    Exactly. Therefore, if you can, have and raise children – with open eyes (you could also ask why this agenda, and who’s promoting it?). The future belongs to those who show up for it.

  172. Opus says:

    I wonder how Ohio is progressing with the woman he has the hots for – the one who is stalking him. I suffered from a stalker a few years ago. This caused me to surf on the net to find out what i might about Stalking and actually there is not much. What I did learn however is that stalking is malign and not as one might suppose benign. Such proved to be the case with my stalker. Why I wondered should a woman who does not want me go to such great lengths to put herself in front of me, come to my door and then run away and so it went on and on and on. Crazy Canuck bitch and I fear the same malignity is the case with Ohio’s. She has to go back (and she did). Ohio please report with your progress.

    On the subject of Islam. Is it not extraordinary that the globo-homo elite should treat Islam given its history as welcome invitees to a party when even this recently (one of) my Great Grandfather(‘s) had fought in the Sudan against the Mahdi. What a strange movie that was too with a cast of tens (the big battle) and with Larry Olivier blacked-up playing the rolling-eyed Mahdi and your own Chuck Heston playing and without any obvious English accent, Chinese Gordon (of Khartoum). Pinewood is insane and so are the Elite.

  173. AnonS says:

    Women keep delaying marriage until they are infertile. MGTOWs start using surrogates and artificial wombs for children. Now who is “doing their part for the future”?

    Women are the ones destroying marriage. If your advice is basically “just become the top 15% bro”; it violates the principle of expecting the average to all be above average. There simply isn’t enough quality women (able to maintain principles in the face of parents, church, and pop culture) to go around.

  174. AnonS says:

    Splashman says:
    My oldest girl (19) is ready for marriage, and both she and I are actively looking for her husband. Our list of requirements is limited to these three things: 1) he fears God, 2) he’s a hard worker, and 3) he loves to learn.

    Can you share what is involved in “actively looking”? Are you taking applications?

  175. Jon Patch says:

    @ZMAN
    You were the nervous one. You should have gone and talked to her the first day. Do you expect a new girl to walk in and announce herself to the secretary and saunter through the office for you?
    I don’t see anything she did as weird, she just plainly put herself out there for you to approach.
    Get a clue dude.

  176. purge187 says:

    ZMAN, she sounds like trouble. I foresee a sexual harassment complaint being made against you, even if you weren’t acting like a creep.

  177. ZMAN says:

    @Jon Patch

    Maybe you missed the part where the first time I met her was in the elevator and I introduced myself to her and asked about her and invited her to see me. Did you miss that? LOL
    I wasn’t nervous at all and she was blushing and barely able to make eye contact. The fact that this girl can’t make eye contact is unnerving and very odd to me which makes it seem like she is not interested. I have never encountered a woman interested in me unable to at least make eye contact and let you approach.

    It is not a big deal as there are plenty of other women that will atleast be more open in their interactions.

    @Opus

    I have had another girl who was literally stalking me in the workplace….she also was married.

  178. 7817 says:

    The fact that this girl can’t make eye contact is unnerving and very odd to me which makes it seem like she is not interested. Very shy girls will act this way sometimes, even if they are really into you. I’ve seen it where they are almost to shy to even look at you, but giggling happily when they think you can’t see. Don’t know if the girl you are talking about is doing the same thing but it sounds that way.

  179. tweell says:

    Fear not, Luke. I’m the grandfather, and as such, outside of the reach of family courts in case of divorce. I’m the landlord, they will be paying a nominal rent. The house is in a trust under my control, but that’s to add another layer of protection in case there’s other legal issues.

    I honestly don’t expect much trouble, she’s a frugal lass and married someone with the same attitude. Her two years of college have been done with no debt, and he got a degree the same way. This is just to help them build up some savings. I figure they won’t want to stay forever, they want a place of their own, but it’s not as easy to do as it was.

  180. Jon Patch says:

    @ZMAN

    I did miss the part about the elevator. Was that in the original content? Maybe you have been serially adding more info and I did not take the time to read all details. I wasn’t there either, just going off the most basic of details and assuming they are objective.

    In my experience, quality girls showing true interest are sometimes more shy, are only able to look at you in glimpses, maybe from the side. This is because she has deemed you as dominant and over her. This is a good thing. I believe only THOTS lock and maintain eye contact with a man they are interested in upon the first interaction.

    I suspect she caught your eye on the subsequent sightings far more frequently than you noticed. It was subtle and subservient. The later occasion when she snubbed you by feigning a phone conversation was probably a comeuppance toward you, but a mild one after feeling ignored by you on several passes. Females will female, even the good ones.

    All of this is to say there are some fairly basic principles here that I am trying to illuminate. I am not giving advanced specific advice. I am not going back to study all of your field notes. There was nothing in her mien that spoke crazy or weird to me, but plenty of men giving advice will find issues and flaws. She may be crazy and weird and stalkerish or she may be a shy hometown winner. I’m not jumping to conclusions good or bad and I don’t see how anybody else here can either.
    “Get a clue dude” still stands.

  181. craig says:

    Mandy Hale (re: not being hit on anymore): “I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.”

    In her hamster-powered mind, this is true. Mandy probably is a good bit more stylish, put-together, and confident than the goofy 20-year-old version of herself. Her problem is that men don’t care much about that stuff. Personal improvements from age and experience are merely partial compensations for the ravages of time, and don’t outweigh the subtle cues signaling youth and pair-bonding ability. What men see is that any 30+ Instagram pro on a first-name basis with the Coach sales staff screams “high maintenance” and “self-centered”, not “wife material”.

  182. Oscar says:

    Off Topic: Remember Josh Harris? The guy who wrote “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”? Sad news.

    We’re writing to share the news that we are separating and will continue our life together as friends. In recent years, some significant changes have taken place in both of us. It is with sincere love for one another and understanding of our unique story as a couple that we are moving forward with this decision. We hope to create a generous and supportive future for each other and for our three amazing children in the years ahead. Thank you for your understanding and for respecting our privacy during a difficult time.

    That’s rough, man. I don’t envy these public figures.

  183. Novaseeker says:

    Off Topic: Remember Josh Harris? The guy who wrote “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”? Sad news.

    He repudated the book a couple of years ago, if I am recalling correctly.

    Also, just looking at his wife on the internet, it looks like she recently rekindled her musical career, and I would guess that this has led to a series of changes (or perhaps grew out of them) which made continuing in the same marriage less viable.

  184. Gunner Q says:

    Opus @ 6:00 am:
    “On the subject of Islam. Is it not extraordinary that the globo-homo elite should treat Islam given its history as welcome invitees to a party…”

    No, they’re allies in the extermination of Christianity. Once that is done, they’ll “re-assess” their need for each other. It’ll be a glorious popcorn-schadenfreude moment if we’re still around to see it.

    What’s the Bedouin saying? “Me against my brother, us against our neighbor, our tribe against the world”? Just because they join forces against us doesn’t mean they won’t gut each other once the needs of the moment are passed.

  185. Novaseeker says:

    No, they’re allies in the extermination of Christianity. Once that is done, they’ll “re-assess” their need for each other. It’ll be a glorious popcorn-schadenfreude moment if we’re still around to see it.

    In the US at least, a lot of Muslm immigrant families have a lot of secularization among the kids who are born here. Think of the typical “Iranian American Princess” type, who is about as Muslim as the typical instagram Christian girl is, or the many Muslims here who simply walk away from religion one generation down the line. The siren song of personal freedom-uber-alles isn’t appealing only to the ears of those who were raised in Christian homes after all.

    Europe is in a somewhat different situation because of the ghettoization of Muslim minorities there (tends to reinforce group identity and hostility to the main culture), and the high constant levels of Muslim immigration there — not like the US where, outside southeast Michigan, Muslims are scattered and not concentrated in groups, are in relatively small numbers compared to immigration from Latin America and even Asia, and therefore tend to secularize to a significant degree 1-2 generations after immigration.

  186. Anonymous Reader says:

    Oscar
    Josh Harris…Kissed dating goodbye

    Novaseeker
    He repudated the book a couple of years ago, if I am recalling correctly.

    Years too late. Harris’s message wasn’t the same as the Mandy Hale squad, but close enough to do much of the same damage among churchgoing people. There’s a reason why historically 21 year olds weren’t given a whole lot of authority or responsibility.

    The larger lesson is this: humans are prone to chase fads. There are fads in every niche of human society, with associated groupthink. It can be a very large effort to step back, look at one’s social milieu and see the groupthink / fad; even more so with personal life. “Kissed dating goodbye” was a fad, with groupthink. The intent was good, but the execution wasn’t.

    It is sad that he’s being divorced. Whenever I see such a situation I cannot help but wonder at what point it could have been turned around with proper frame / mindset.

  187. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hugh Mann
    The MGTOW brigade have a point – in that the laws relating to divorce are heavily biased against men, that no-fault divorce essentially offers cash and prizes to women for breaking up a family.

    There is a vast difference between recognizing risk and determining how to minimize it, and retreating to fear, despair and something a lot like hysteria. Dalrock has been writing about the risk for years.

    Here is an essay from over 5 years ago.
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/child-support-and-the-threat-point/

    Another from over 6 years ago:
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/why-men-are-withdrawing-from-courtship/

    A classic from over 7 years ago.
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/04/14/threatpoint/

    I found these via the search tool in the upper right hand corner, using only the word “threatpoint” as a search term. It is easy to do. It takes very little time. I do not understand why more men don’t take advantage of this.

    But if you want to have kids (either inside or outside wedlock – cohabitation won’t save you),
    it’s a risk you have to take

    This was discussed at great length a couple of years ago at Rollo’s. In the US, where “child support” has arguably replaced “marriage” as an institution the state sets the rules of the game and knows all the angles. A man who wants children really hasn’t any choice but to marry, in the US. Either he marries the woman, or he marries the state.

    In the context of this blog, a man who claims to be Christian must marry to have children.

    (although I can see the appeal of getting your house/career sorted then playing Billy Beta to a series of hopeful thirtysomethings in their epiphany phase).

    If you mean a soft harem / “plate spinning” that has many pitfalls, and again it’s not an option in terms of this blog.

  188. Minesweeper says:

    @DeepThought says:@Minesweeper “This is not an unattractive woman, there must be something else seriously wrong here .”

    Look at her attire. Does this look like a woman screaming marry me?”

    Why yes it does 😀

  189. thedeti says:

    Josh Harris’s wife is professionally/publicly known as Shannon Bonne.

    shannonbonne.bandcamp.com

    As nova said it looks like she’s revving up her singing career again and that might have caused the rift.

  190. ZJay says:

    It occurs to me that part of the reason few people tell young women the truth is that men have no incentive to do so.

    If I, as a single man, were to tell a young woman that she shouldn’t wait to have children or get married it would come off as pathetically self serving.

    Even those who don’t know about “game,” or have general redpill awareness know on some level that telling a woman about harsh biological truths is the opposite of attractive behavior.

    Men want to be liked by women and so nothing can be said around them that might pop the bubble of fantasy they live in. *That would make her not like you!*

    I think this can even apply to a married man. On a subcontious level even married men don’t like telling single (or even attached) women hash truths becouse somewhere in a dark recces of his grey mater, he to wants to be liked by her and to keep the possibility of breeding with her open.

    Its kinda like the prisoners dilemma, only in reverse.

    Keep your moth shut for a chance at poon or speak the truth to women and risk being relegated to inceldom. The result is women never hear the truth from men.

  191. Bart says:

    @Sir Hamster, know what’s dishonorable? Lying to men about what’s really going on and allowing them to get destroyed. That isn’t helping anyone. Preserving our culture and civilization is a noble goal, I’m on board with that and back it up in real life. But it isn’t enough to build up strong, responsible men. We’ve been carelessly throwing strong, responsible men on the Man Up bonfire for decades, and it isn’t making it better. Suggesting that they just haven’t been shamed enough into saddling up is ignorant and unproductive (as is a junior commenter who calls everyone a loser who doesn’t agree with him). We won’t all agree on solutions or values, but we should at least agree on telling men the truth and not looking to censor difficult ones.

  192. Oscar says:

    @ thedeti

    Josh Harris’s wife is professionally/publicly known as Shannon Bonne.

    That’s a bad sign. Here’s another.

    https://www.shannonbonne.com/

    Writing this album marks a moment of personal and creative liberation for me. My earlier days were filled with music and performing, yet as adulthood came I let my dreams go. But the desire to create never did. Bringing my dreams to life through this project has taught me something beautiful.

    It’s like a script for a chick flick.

  193. Jean says:

    As I read here, I’m often curious if any of you are aware of the dating model we have in our Christian community, where the young women do their part by trying to be as attractive as possible (looks, home skills, reputation, faith, and other factors like a family business or farm) and the young men do all the choosing. If you’re attractive to someone, he will let you know. If you aren’t chosen, you can try to better your chances, look for men outside your community, or just give up and be single. Giving up can be going into missions, studying for a degree, or throwing herself into a job. There’s always the hope that she might meet someone later, but most aren’t that fortunate.

    For a woman to be forward and attempt to influence a guy to choose her is seen as aggressive, unfeminine, evidence that one is a feminist, and won’t be a good wife/helper/mom. Parents would be very
    disapproving of a girl who pursued their son. It’s rude to put a man on the spot by showing interest in him.

    Maybe that’s what happened to Emily Stimpson. Maybe that’s what’s going on with the girl running by the workspace. They may have been taught that a good woman, as evidence that she is good and godly, waits to be chosen.

  194. Nick Mgtow says:

    Bart says ” MGTOW has arisen because women have made themselves so dislikable in general and overridden that protective instinct. MGTOW is self-protective, not about envy of women or a sort of relationship union to strike a better deal with women. They’ve simply opted out, and your lack of power over them appears to drive you crazy.”

    Men have improved women’s lives with all of their technological help. And, how did women repay men in exchange? With gratitude? No. Women’s most prized “innovation” is a chair preventing men from sitting comfortably.

  195. Oscar says:

    @ ZJay

    It occurs to me that part of the reason few people tell young women the truth is that men have no incentive to do so.

    If I, as a single man, were to tell a young woman that she shouldn’t wait to have children or get married it would come off as pathetically self serving.

    It’s not a single man’s place to tell a young woman that she shouldn’t wait to have children, nor is it his responsibility.

    First and foremost, it’s her father’s responsibility. Second, it’s her mother’s responsibility. And finally, it’s the responsibility of the older women of the church.

    I’ve told my daughters the truth, and other parents here have also, but there are almost no “older women of the church” teaching young women that their highest calling is to be a wife and mother. I mean, sure there’s Lori Alexander, but she’s one lady with a blog. She can’t do it all.

    And, frankly, too few parents tell their daughters the truth. Frankly, I don’t get it. I want grandchildren, dammit!

  196. Novaseeker says:

    That’s a bad sign. Here’s another.

    https://www.shannonbonne.com/

    Yep that’s what I was looking at as well.

    If you read that, and realize she was married to Josh in 1998, and count … well, it would appear that she came to the conclusion that the time being married and having kids forced her away from music in a way that wasn’t what “she really wanted”. Of course it’s possible to bring those things back into one’s established life without upsetting the applecart, as it were … but if you’re doing it that way, you usually would not describe it as “a moment of personal and creative liberation for [me]”.

    Again, just a guess, but it’s one that “rhymes” with a sep and divorce, especially since the record was released in 2018, so quite recently.

  197. JRob says:

    “I Kissed Marriage Goodbye.”

    The photo he posted says it all. Remember Lisa Whelchel, the Churchiochick superstar of 15 years ago?

    -Yes Jean, all the fault as usual lays at the feet of the Men Who Refuse to Man Up and Step Up to the Plate (TM).

  198. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Jean
    Since you are new to the site, it is likely that you have not read many of Dalrock’s essays or even many comments. I suggest you scroll back up and read the two comments by Cynthia for a start.

    Second, you description of the churchgoing “dating market” doesn’t bear much resemblance to what men actually can see. It may look that way to you, but it isn’t what men are actually having to live with.

    Third, look at the top of the page and pick some of the permanent links such as “finding a spouse”, then read some of the essays.

    Once you are up to speed, it will be easier for you to discuss some of these topics.

  199. Jean says:

    JRob, that’s not at all what I’m saying. My point is that some Christian women who have been raised to value marriage and family have also been taught that it’s brazen and unfeminine to go after a man. In this situation, the men have been taught to choose carefully and make a move toward the woman they want for a lifetime. The unchosen girls obviously aren’t good enough. And when they may find themselves in Christian communities where men expect them to pursue, they don’t get it and think they’d look like a slut.

  200. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    well, it would appear that she came to the conclusion that the time being married and having kids forced her away from music in a way that wasn’t what “she really wanted”.

    I spy a rationalization hamster at work. Sad stuff.

  201. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jean
    My point is that some Christian women who have been raised to value marriage and family have also been taught that it’s brazen and unfeminine to go after a man.

    That may well be true, but it is increasingly rare. Perhaps you could re-read the original essay by Dalrock and note how much of her 20’s Emily Stimpson spent on higher education and various internships — none of which have much to do with actually finding a husband.

    30 years ago, the average woman in the US was marrying at around 22.

    The average age of a woman in the US on the day of her first wedding is 27.

    Do you see the significance?

  202. Novaseeker says:

    In this situation, the men have been taught to choose carefully and make a move toward the woman they want for a lifetime. The unchosen girls obviously aren’t good enough.

    This isn’t inaccurate in my observation. From the guy’s perspective, it is perceived that dating in one specific church is a “one and done” experience. That is — it is not accepted to date several girls in the congregation, in series, if the first one approached doesn’t work out. That’s considered caddish and “going through the congregation”, and the girls who weren’t the first picked will reject him. So he chooses carefully the one he really wants, and if that doesn’t go anywhere, it’s “done” with that specific church. He needs to move to other churches, or even outside the church at some point, in order to avoid that problem.

  203. thedeti says:

    They may have been taught that a good woman, as evidence that she is good and godly, waits to be chosen.

    Jean, there’s a big, big difference between “waiting to be chosen” and “go after a man.” There’s a lot of gray area in there that isn’t unfeminine, isn’t brazen, isn’t slutty and isn’t immodest. Ever heard of going up to a guy and saying “Hi, I’m [insert girl’s name here]. How are you?” Or how about making some conversation with a guy she likes? Or how about offering to help a guy with something?

    She’s not stripping for him. She’s not offering to have sex with him. She’s not offering herself up to him. She’s not demanding marriage.

    What’s so damn hard about this?

  204. thedeti says:

    Jean, women are going to have to do SOMETHING. They MUST show SOME indicators of interest before a guy is going to risk everything he has and all of his reputation at a particular church by approaching a girl.

    The days of just hanging back and waiting for all the men to come to you are over. They’re gone and they’re not coming back. Girls, if you want men, you will have to do something to indicate that you actually want one, that you’re interested in one, that you aren’t going to nuke a guy or #MeToo him, and that you aren’t going to ruin his life at that church if it doesn’t work out with him.

  205. thedeti says:

    Jean, you’ve described what the dating market at your church looks like. Let me tell you what it looks like to the average man at your church.

    The average man at your church isn’t particularly attractive or noteworthy. That’s what most of the girls think of him. He is not attractive to most of the girls you’re extolling here. Most of the girls you’re espousing as paragons of sweetness and light have made it painfully clear to this average man that not only are they not interested in him, they are downright repulsed by him.

    The absolute best they think of him is that he’s a nice guy and a friend. But dating? Sex? Marriage? Most of these girls have already written the Average Church Guy off. There is absolutely no way in hell any of these girls will ever even think about going on one date with an Average Church Guy, much less marry him, much less have sex with him.

    This Average Church Guy has ALREADY asked out at least a few of the girls at your church, and they blew him out of the water. Told him in so many words, “You? Me? Not happening. Never, ever, not in a million years.” The Average Church Guy has already been rejected more than 20 times by girls he’s known all his life.

    The Average Church Guy is hopelessly unattractive. He has no idea how to be attractive. He has no idea what is attractive to women. All his life, everyone around him has told him that because he’s a man and has a sex drive and wants sex, he is bad, evil, sick, immoral, perverted, a terrible Christian, sinful, hyperaggressive, criminal, and a potential rapist. Everyone has told him that if he wants a girl he has to be nice, be himself, and let girls come to him. He has been told that nice, kind, affable, and friendly are sexually attractive traits, that these male attributes turn girls on and make them want sex with him.

    We – YOU – have created concave chested, limp wristed girly men, and then we exhort these men who have no idea what they’re doing, to be sexually attractive and go out and get girls to like them. And they fail, over and over and over again. And people like you ask why.

    I just told you why.

    Now. Tell me again what the problems are?

  206. thedeti says:

    What Average Church Guy sees is the women you’re describing going on dates with nonChristian men after they reject him. He knows that the Christian women he’s gone to church with are leading double lives, lives you don’t know about.

    He knows these women who just rejected him are having sex with those nonChristian men. He knows those women really want, and really are attracted to, non Christian men who aren’t in church, who you don’t know. This is by design. These women present one face to you and Average Church Guy – the paragon of sweetness and Christian virtue who would never ever do anything immoral. They present another face to the rest of the world – the ordinary everyday young woman who dates and has sex with men she’s attracted to, and who is far more influenced by popular culture than she is by Christian doctrine or Christian sexual morality. But, Average Church Guy sees that second face every so often, when he sees those girls away from Church. He knows what they do. He knows who they date. And he can get a pretty good idea of what they do on their dates with those attractive nonChristian men.

    You don’t know anything about this, because you don’t see these girls like Average Church Guy does. You see them in church. You don’t see them at school or at their jobs or in the world. ACG does. He knows things you don’t know. He sees things you don’t see.

    That’s why you’re wrong.

  207. Paul says:

    @DeepThought For centuries the Turks ruled Greece, Egypt and the Balkans. Guess what. Christians still live in those lands.

    Remember the Armenian genocide by the Turks? The Greek genocide? The sack of Constantinople? The Janissaries (made up of kidnapped young Christian boys who were forcefully converted to Islam)? The Devshirme (the practice where the Ottoman Empire sent military officers to take Christian boys, ages 8 to 18, from their families in Eastern and Southeastern Europe in order that they be raised to serve the state. This tax of sons was imposed only on the Christian subjects of the empire, in the villages of the Balkans and Anatolia)?

    To this day the state of Turkey is converting Christians historic churches into mosques, just as they did with the Hagia Sophia, the biggest and most splendid church of Eastern Christianity.

    Yes, the Christians fondly remember the Turks.

  208. Larry says:

    Anna Hitchings’s “message” is hitting the Catholic media. Of course all the women are devout and deserving of a man in their 30’s or later, even though they rejected men all through their 20’s for not being “worldly wise” (her words). Further, Hitchings (who at 32, believes she’s entitled to a man of 25-35) has gone on record that she only gets attracted to a man about once every 3-4 years. She attends Latin Mass (a tiny strange corner of the Catholic Church) and wears one of those funny lace scarves and insists that “there are no men” even though she claims an active social life filled with church-y events. And has lots of friends who’ve never ever been asked on a date at all.

    Her articles have drawn hundreds of comments. She’s getting onto podcasts now and it’s clear that she won’t change her attitudes, not even a little bit. According to her, every social misfit in Oz has approached her for a date, and she’s deemed them all to be unworthy of even a “pity date” (her words).

    I’ve tried to correct some of her faulty assumptions about single Catholic men, the most obvious correction being that they DO exist (but are classy enough not to ogle the women who come to church alone and then stalk them to the parking lot afterwards). But she’s got the soapbox (www.agonyandhope.com) and she’s got the message that the Church wants their little girls to hear. I don’t expect it to change.

  209. dpmonahan says:

    @Jean: it could very well be true that Christian girls are taught to not chase men. If that is the case they are misunderstanding something: women have always sent signals to men to whom they are attracted. It is normal human (female) behavior. The communication is generally indirect and often semi-conscious. If girls are taught to suppress that they are being taught wrong.
    There is a middle ground between being a man-hungry cock chaser and a girl who refuses to acknowledge the men around her. Women traditionally give off discrete signals, what the PUA crowd calls Indicators Of Interest (IOIs), and there is nothing wrong with trying to catch a man’s eye. The IOIs usually work on a man subconsciously, and some men are more obtuse than others and need a lot of hints. Young Christian men today are extra dense because of what they have been taught.
    Nowadays everything is screwed up and there are no rules for men or women. If a young woman is interested in a man she should (in my opinion) just ask him out. It sounds inverted, maybe it is, but the young man is probably equally clueless.
    And the other commenters are correct too: young Christian men are very often shot down when they ask Christian girls out for dates, and eventually they give up on the good Christian bitches.
    Look, Satan does not care how he prevents Christians from marrying and starting families. He will work on the women, and work on the men. He will use feminism or porn or exaggerated rules of courtship. All he cares about is breeding us out.

  210. Acksiom says:

    Y’know, you tradcucks can keep strawmanning MGTOW as whiny risk-averse cowardice all you want, but every time you do so instead of addressing my actual points as actually made, it just goes to support them.

    The fact remains that the socioeconomic market for men’s surplus production has changed. But you apparently refuse to admit that, let alone pay men the higher prices they can increasingly charge for it. And that point has nothing to do with the quality of women or risk aversion or the rest of your fallaciously exclusive strawmanning. Nothing. Not a single damn thing.

    Again, and again, and over and over again, until it finally sinks in: Men can live better for cheaper than ever before in history. So the price for their surplus production is rising accordingly.

    But you tradcucks don’t want to pitch in and start paying your fair share, so you try to shame and blame anybody who points out how you’re failing in your own reciprocal responsibilities to marriage-minded men.

    Yes, some MGTOW are whiny quitters. But some is not all,.and you consistently and repeatedly ignore the rest who aren’t. And the old shame and blame game isn’t working like it used to, because the traditional community monopoly over the supply of men’s individuation needs has been broken. The market for meeting men’s individuation needs has changed, and is only going to change faster and harder as time advances. Your gaslighting is failing, just like the media’s false accusations of racism, sexism, phobism, and so on. It’s the same damn thing on your parts. You are behaving just like them, because just like them, you refuse to offer anything that can compete in today’s market.

    All you do is wag your fingers and namecall, because the market has changed and you refuse to change with it. You refuse to pay your fair share. You refuse to step up and contribute. You refuse to offer men what their surplus production is worth.

    You demand their service, but refuse to reciprocate. And when this is pointed out to you, you just double down on the namecalling and the willful, deliberate, intentional denial.

  211. Splashman says:

    @AnonS,

    Can you share what is involved in “actively looking”? Are you taking applications?

    We brainstorm frequently about how to meet more guys in the target age range (22-28). She attends young-adult groups at 2 different churches, but there aren’t many men in those and most churchians don’t satisfy our 3 criteria. We’ve considered enrolling her in a class at the local community college (M.R.S. degree); still might do that, not sure. I’ve asked quite a number of family friends to suggest any prospects. Pretty much everyone who knows us knows that she wants to get married sooner rather than later. (Of course, that’s led to plenty of disapproval, disgust, and outrage from lots of folks, including my own extended family. But I’ve taught my daughter to stand firm and stay cheerful when dealing with them. And I’ve reamed a few a-holes who earned it by trying to bully her.)

    Currently we have 2 good prospects; one just finished his engineering degree (23), the other is 27 and is a tradesman. Next week I’m having lunch with the latter, planinng to do the same soon with the former.

    I assume you were joking about the applications thing, but if it were possible to do so without causing a rift in the space-time continuum, I would advertise on Craigslist, as meeting suitable men is proving more difficult than I first thought. I know nothing about online dating services; a few friends have suggested that route, but I’ve avoided it reflexively.

    Which leads me to ask the Dalrock crowd: Have any suggestions for meeting suitable men? (Suitable = fears God, hard worker, loves learning).

    ** Heh, just realized there is a fourth criteria: has to be interested in marriage. Which means he has to be clinically insane, because only an idiot would get married in the USA’s legal environment. 🙂

  212. 7817 says:

    @Acksiom

    loser.txt

  213. Anonymous Reader says:

    Aksium
    Men can live better for cheaper than ever before in history. So the price for their surplus production is rising accordingly.

    If your argument is some sort of economic inevitability, then there’s no need for you argue..it’s inevitable. If you’re making some kind of “fairness” argument, you are years too late. Frankly it isn’t clear what you are trying to accomplish here, aside from trolling the TradCons for flames….which is about as interesting as a Protestant trolling Catholics or vice versa, i.e. quite boring and pointless.

    I understand WordPress makes it very easy for someone to start their own blog…

  214. Marquess, Whyte Isrealite (DAAAS RYTE!) says:

    What kind of man expects another man to do something for nothing?

    If he is not meek, he is a cunt.

    Even God offers incentive: hope of salvation in return for our will to bend our conscience toward submission and obedience.

    Does anyone other than the host understand that even the best men flee disincentive and dishonor? That men will not sacrifice for dishonorable abstractions?

    If any of the BASED AND REDPILLED YPSILONS here were serious about putting their money where their mouths are, their best bet is to form a DARK CONSORTIUM OF INFINITE MALEVOLENCE (NOW WITH CUSTOM EMOJIS) to crowdfund young Christian couples’ homesteads.

    Call it Kickhearther. So glohomo, it wraps around to trad.

    Are they going to do it? Are they going to do anything constructive at all?

    Are they going to forgo the $150/night “campsites” by the Interstate and hock their boomer cuckbusses? Are they going to draw off their 401ks and HELOCs and hope their X’er asses don’t get H1-B’ed? Are they going to chargeback “Bronies are Magic, VR, Millenial Edition” to Steam?

    Will they lay their labor on the line for “civilization?” Will they raise a barn?

    Why don’t you set an example for all the whiny groypers and take action? They might pay attention. Right now, not only are you failing to offer cogent exegesis, you aren’t even offering a lootbox for their Fortnite.

  215. JD says:

    >She attends Latin Mass (a tiny strange corner of the Catholic Church)

    Strangeness compared to what, the nominal Catholics who attend Novus Ordo Mass? Strange to non-denominational Christians? Strange to Baptists?

  216. DeNihilist says:

    LOL!

  217. A past acquaintance of Emily's says:

    I crossed paths with Emily sometime in the mid to late 2000s. I’m having a hard time recalling when exactly that was, but I’m pretty sure we were set up by mutual friends.
    It didn’t work out, probably mostly because I effed it up quickly. I was coming off a broken engagement and was kind of a mess. Also, I hadn’t internalized Game yet, so I wasn’t very smooth. at all.
    I don’t really know her, but I recall her to be a good person. That sense is reinforced because we run in distant but overlapping circles of friends and friends of friends and friends of friends of friends. I believe her to be a good and virtuous person because of that. Not a perfect person. Not a person who has made every decision wisely. But she’s not a bad person and not a hypocrite or a deceiver, as some have speculated here. I never read or even knew of her books, but I suspect that she is writing to an audience like herself, women who are surprised and disappointed to find themselves where they are and sharing the strategies she used to make the best of it. So she’s not writing, at least not yet, higher wisdom literature to warn younger women to make wiser choices than she did while they still can.

  218. Oscar says:

    @ A past acquaintance of Emily’s

    I never read or even knew of her books, but I suspect that she is writing to an audience like herself, women who are surprised and disappointed to find themselves where they are and sharing the strategies she used to make the best of it.

    Why was she, or anyone else, surprised? Are the biological facts not widely available? Do they not know how to use a search engine?

    So she’s not writing, at least not yet, higher wisdom literature to warn younger women to make wiser choices than she did while they still can.

    Do you not realize that is a form of deception?

  219. Swanny River says:

    Josh Harris’s ex, a short hair cut and separate name. Great.

  220. Eric M says:

    While I will defend anyone’s right to free speech in the comments no matter how offensive or unintelligent it is, I do have to suggest adding a “Troll” tag of some sort to 7817 so people don’t waste too much time trying to engage with him seriously. In an arena where some seriously astute people engage in high-levels ideas, someone spends multiple posts and paragraphs composing a well-articulated an evidence-supported argument and 7817 replies with a 9-letter meme response or shaming tactics of “LOOOOOOooooooser”. It’s such an insult to people who actually take him seriously and engaged with him on sincere grounds.

    In regards to Emily Chapman, the triple-name thing stands out as a red flag. 3 years after her marriage she is still carrying her maiden name and not becoming part of a new family and new life and one unit with her husband. On one hand it is a good sign that she is not so into being fashionable and put-together to the point of vanity, but it appears she hasn’t done a single thing to her appearance to be attractive to men. In all of the surveyed men studies, AI studies, and dating site picture metrics it has empirically shown that men prefer neotenous features in women – youthful features like thick hair, healthy skin, wide eyes, etc. Emily’s eyes and general skin tone make them appear extremely horizontal and narrow, some simple mascara or basic makeup would add a significant appearance of youth and attractiveness for the guy – especially on her wedding day photos – but that didn’t seem to be a priority to her, unless her husband specifically requested the clown lipstick I suppose.

    I admit I am a younger guy trying to glean wisdom from the older folks here and I can’t guarantee how my attraction range will shift once I am 65 but I can’t foresee it ever dropping low enough that a woman of her appearance could reach the attraction threshold. I do hope that she has a pleasant and submissive spirit, appreciates what a reach up her husband is for her, and that they have a happy marriage.

  221. TheTraveler says:

    @JD

    As a Catholic, I’m afraid he’s right. I’ve been in several places where Latin Mass was offered. The Latin Novus Ordo crowd was weird. The Tridentines, downright bizarre–like stepping back into a bizarre, self-congratulating parody of the 1950s; the people were unfriendly (as in, who are you and why are you intruding?) even by Catholic standards with the added layer of smugness that THEY were the sole, Divinely-favored elite keepers of Catholicism.

    My tradition is Eastern Catholic, relatively untouched by Vatican II. In the absence of such, I attend RC parishes. The Novus Ordo, when celebrated with dignity and grace, and omitting the “shakey-hands/huggy-kissy” sign of peace can be quite beautiful.

  222. purge187 says:

    “Also, just looking at his wife on the internet, it looks like she recently rekindled her musical career, and I would guess that this has led to a series of changes (or perhaps grew out of them) which made continuing in the same marriage less viable.”

    I’m willing to bet that a less-than-dazzling “personal life” played a part as well. It’s pretty obvious that Josh is a genophobe.

  223. Hank Flanders says:

    Nowadays everything is screwed up and there are no rules for men or women. If a young woman is interested in a man she should (in my opinion) just ask him out. It sounds inverted, maybe it is, but the young man is probably equally clueless.
    And the other commenters are correct too: young Christian men are very often shot down when they ask Christian girls out for dates, and eventually they give up on the good Christian bitches.

    Personally, I don’t understand the point in asking someone out unless the person asking has already been established that there’s mutual interest, and with the options of texting and messaging online, gauging interest is easier than it’s ever been in history. You can send a message any time of the day or night, and the other person can respond any time of the day or night if they’re interested. If they are, then they’ll respond promptly and try to carry on a conversation or even move to a phone conversation. If they’re not interested, then they won’t respond for a while, if ever, and even if they do, they won’t try to carry on much of a conversation.

    I figure that if someone doesn’t want to spend two minutes talking to you, then it stands to reason that they’re not going to want to spend two hours with you, so what’s the point in “taking a chance” and asking him or her on a date? Interest or non-interest can easily be determined well before that’s even necessary, because two people who like each other WILL find a way to communicate, and going out would just be the next logical step. If only one person wants to communicate, then that tells you about the imbalance of interest levels of both parties. Like Doc Love always correctly said, “When they like you, they help you.” I can’t remember seeing this principle not be true with anyone ever.

    Articles like the one below are written from such a delusional perspective that it’s ridiculous. If the guys who are the subjects of the articles aren’t asking the women out, it’s because the guys aren’t interested, or it’s because the girls aren’t interested. Mutual attraction simply hasn’t been established. There’s no fear involved. There’s simply no need for fear, because in my view, there’s really no such thing as ambiguity anymore. Technology’s made it obsolete:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180707042936/http://ruthiedean.com/2013/01/17/stop-praying-start-asking-christian-men-need-to-man-up-and-date/

  224. Hank Flanders says:

    The quote in italics was from dpmonahan.

  225. Hank Flanders says:

    thedeti

    Mandy Hale’s entire professional and public identity is that of a single Christian woman

    She’s not just a single Christian woman. She’s apparently a leftist, single Christian woman. It seems like the dating pool would be pretty small for a woman in that demographic. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised to her announce that she’s an atheist “after seeing the hate that comes from Christians.” I’ve said before, though, that I think Hale will get married and have kids, and I still think there’s a good chance that that’s true, because I’ve observed single women her age and older get boyfriends and get married, but they usually had to do so with men that some might not find very attractive or desirable, so the window for not settling hard is closing.

  226. MikeJJ says:

    Hank Flanders, the couple at your link also wrote a dating book with the “Where are the real men?” theme and did some promotion. They were too late for the initial trend, but we see the complaints coming back strong with recent popular articles.

  227. Hank Flanders says:

    Oscar

    Off Topic: Remember Josh Harris? The guy who wrote “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”? Sad news.

    As I recall from Harris’s book, “Boy Meets Girl,” about their relationship, she had had pre-marital sex before they got married. He hadn’t or least hadn’t in regard to intercourse itself. Isn’t there some statistic about that situation and a couple’s increased chances of divorce?

  228. Hank Flanders says:

    MikeJJ,

    Yeah, I don’t really know much about them. I remember that particular article, though, from when it came out, because I guess it was making the social media rounds at the time, but it appears Ruthie Dean’s blog is either dead or has moved. Anyway, do you have any links to the articles to which you were referring? They sound interesting.

  229. TheTraveler says:

    Seems to me, there’s no one “right” way of asking someone out. Regardless, it is prohibitively difficult for men.

    In the past, a man could be reasonably sure he wouldn’t be emasculated for asking for a date. Today, too many women humiliate any man outside a very narrow demographic. There’s the nasty rejection for “DARING” to approach. More insidiously, there’s the flirtatious conversation ending in mocking rejection when he (logically) asks her out. Such behavior used to be shamed: “tease,” “bimbo.” Since the 1980s, it’s the man’s fault for…well, just because.

    Too many women have a narrow ideal; every other should be a) invisible or b) ego-boost orbiter. It’s HIS responsibility to read her mind and know which.

    Women made this mess. The nice girl who just wants a good man has to deal with the reality her radical sisters have created: overcautious, gun-shy men.

    You want a man? Sorry if it makes uou uncomfortable, but you’ll have to come and get him.

  230. PokeSalad says:

    The MGTOW brigade have a point – in that the laws relating to divorce are heavily biased against men, that no-fault divorce essentially offers cash and prizes to women for breaking up a family.

    That IS the point.

  231. 7817 says:

    The MGTOW brigade have a point – in that the laws relating to divorce are heavily biased against men, that no-fault divorce essentially offers cash and prizes to women for breaking up a family.

    This is 100% true. People around here are not arguing that it’s not true, or that its a good thing. No fault divorce shouldn’t exist.

    The mgtows aren’t saying anything about the policy side that I really disagree with. Things are bad out there. The problem is that they fixate solely on the bad side of things. They revel in their helplessness and inability to create change. They accuse family men of not doing enough to help them. They love their victim status so much and their pain that they don’t want there to be a way out for them.

    They have half the truth of the situation: things are bad. They are missing the other half of the truth: there is hope.

    They are in a prison of their own making. They need to quit commenting, start lurking somewhere that gives them actionable advice to change, and move on.

    Newly unplugged men that are bemoaning the situation, now that they see the truth? Completely different category, I’ve got sympathy for them.

    But mgtow are just long term masochists. Anytime one pops up they should be thoroughly mocked.

  232. Hank Flanders says:

    TheTraveler

    Too many women have a narrow ideal; every other should be a) invisible or b) ego-boost orbiter. It’s HIS responsibility to read her mind and know which.

    Is that even difficult to do, though? If you get her contact info and try to contact her, then her response or lack thereof tells you what she’s thinking, doesn’t it? If she won’t even give you her contact info or is reluctant to do so, then that tells you something as well.

    Another of Doc Love’s sayings was, “Women don’t lie. Men don’t listen.” I think this principle is even more true now in the age of the ubiquitous use of the Internet and cell phones than it was when the “home phone number” was the prize, because these days, people check their phones and messages frequently, and if they’re interested in talking to someone, they’ll reply quickly. If 24 hours pass, and you hear nothing back, though, then you probably won’t, and even if you do, it probably won’t be much.

  233. 7817 says:

    @Eric M

    It’s such an insult to people who actually take him seriously and engaged with him on sincere grounds.

    Yes. It is an insult.

    Their whining is sincere.

    So are my insults.

    Look, all mgtows have to do is not be eternal Eeyore. Is that really to much to ask?

  234. MKT says:

    “Josh Harris’s wife is professionally/publicly known as Shannon Bonne.

    shannonbonne.bandcamp.com

    As nova said it looks like she’s revving up her singing career again and that might have caused the rift.”

    True. but I think there’s a lot more to it. She does hashtags like “exvangelical” and “deconverted.” It looks like both (especially his wife) have thrown the conservative Christianity baby (and older kids and marriage) out with the bathwater. He should’ve addressed problems with the approach while remaining in a Biblical, patriarchal framework. Instead, he went on an apology tour (with both the MSM and SJW “Christians” praising) and started hanging around liberals and feminists.

  235. MKT says:

    “Years too late. Harris’s message wasn’t the same as the Mandy Hale squad, but close enough to do much of the same damage among churchgoing people.”

    They were very, very different. Josh’s audience was the conservative homeschooling crowd. He didn’t need to fully repudiate his book and go on tour talking about how bad it was–though it helped him start a new personal brand. He just needed to clarify some things and warn of excesses. Like all movements, courtship attracted some extremists and Pharisees. But the real reason it’s hated so much are the patriarchal overtones. Imagine giving the father any authority in 17-year old little Susie’s life? What is this…the 18th Century?

  236. Hank Flanders says:

    ZMAN,

    If you’re interested in her, I think you should just get her cell phone number, text her, and see how she responds, or even just invite her out to lunch or something with you and some other co-workers so that you have plausible deniability and can just make it look like a professional outing. Just be careful about who the other co-workers would be and if they might try to date her, too. You might even use the company email system to invite her if you don’t see her in person, unless that wouldn’t come off too stalkerish. You be the judge of that.

  237. Hank Flanders says:

    *unless that would come off too stalkerish

  238. MikeJJ says:

    Sorry for the big double posts there, I thought the links may have been poorly formatted. But yes, that was trying to be the “big thing” a few years back and never quite made it.

  239. Scott says:

    Jean, there’s a big, big difference between “waiting to be chosen” and “go after a man.” There’s a lot of gray area in there that isn’t unfeminine, isn’t brazen, isn’t slutty and isn’t immodest. Ever heard of going up to a guy and saying “Hi, I’m [insert girl’s name here]. How are you?” Or how about making some conversation with a guy she likes? Or how about offering to help a guy with something?

    It’s painful. It’s like Rollo says, it’s amazing Christians ever get laid and reproduce.

    If a woman is into you:

    She will always coincidentally find herself in the same places you are
    She will laugh at your jokes, even the ones that aren’t funny
    You will catch her looking just a little longer at you than normal
    All the sudden develop interests in things you are interested in
    Cancel other things to be with you
    In general, act silly around you

    …and so on.

    And none of those things are slutty or too forward. They are normal. Healthy. Cute. A part of being young and falling for each other.

    Geez.

  240. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hank Flanders
    Isn’t there some statistic about that situation and a couple’s increased chances of divorce?

    Click on this link, take your pick of the first three entries. This took less than one minute out of my busy day..

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22probability+of+divorce%22+%22sexual+partners%22+GSS&t=brave&ia=web

  241. Hank Flanders says:

    MikeJJ,

    Yeah, I kind of remember that “Real Men Don’t Text” headline. I’m not sure if I ever read the article or not, but I just now tried reading it as well as Ruthie’s article that you just linked to and couldn’t bring myself to read either one in detail. I only felt like skimming them, because there was too much of the “only real man in room” stuff. Anyway, interestingly, at the time those articles were written, I had never used texting either, as I never got texting on my phone until 2014. Even now, I’m not a big fan of having long text conversations, but I definitely think texting can be used as a first step, which can then lead to talking on the phone and dating.

    I mean, if we men are supposed to “make our intentions clear,” as authors like that advocate, then why don’t we just go ahead and ask women to marry us when we meet them? If there’s something wrong with taking baby steps, then why should we waste time taking any baby steps at all?

    In any case, if woman is into you, then she’s going to want to hear from you, regardless of the medium you use. If she’s not interested, then I don’t see her suddenly becoming interested just because you avoid texting her altogether. If she’s into you, then she’ll be happy to just go to Moe’s with you (RE: Ruthie’s Moe’s reference). I guess I could be wrong, but that’s just been my experience.

    In answer to your questions, I think the Deans’ principles were already too late for the times they were written, and I think those concepts have just become even more obsolete since then. Maybe they realized that and deleted the posts because of it. Anyway, sure, some women might pretend they want men to act the way the Deans advocate, but those alleged preferences are just based on women wanting to control their situations as well as men. I’d love it if a woman I liked would call me, too, but I’d be fine if she wanted to text me first.

  242. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hank Flanders
    I mean, if we men are supposed to “make our intentions clear,” as authors like that advocate, then why don’t we just go ahead and ask women to marry us when we meet them? If there’s something wrong with taking baby steps, then why should we waste time taking any baby steps at all?

    Heh.

    Now that is how the Real Men proceeded to Kiss Dating Goodbye! Yessir! That right there! Anything less is namby-pamby, borderline cowardice.

    Traditional Conservatives, rejoice! A man finally got the message…

  243. feeriker says:

    Ultimately, concerning the subject of the OP, it’s pretty difficult not to feel “I bathe in your tears, bitch” sentiments towards such women. This woman dodged a bullet (and, one could argue, received a most undeserved blessing) by landing a betabux. Most of her sisters-in-misery won’t get such a reprieve.

  244. Hank Flanders says:

    Anonymous Reader,

    Thanks, that’s a search engine I’ve never seen before, and it’s interesting that it yields some different results than google. Anyway, I was mostly just pointing out that Josh and Shannon appear to be exemplifying an unfortunate correlation that we already know about around here.

  245. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hank Flanders
    Anyway, sure, some women might pretend they want men to act the way the Deans advocate, but those alleged preferences are just based on women wanting to control their situations as well as men.

    As has been made clear on this site in essays and comments over the years, there is a herd of elephants in the room that church leaders,church writers, etc. carefully avoid looking at. All the pachyderms are related. In too many cases, older men do not look at the elephants in the room because their wives told them not to.

    Women’s anxiety / insecurity that plays out as a need for control is one of them. It is one of the reasons why a man should be secure in his own skin and have a frame of reference that doesn’t shake easily before marriage. Unhappily a lot of modern culture is aimed at keeping men from ever reaching that state of mind, and that specifically includes church culture. Because modern churches are Beta factories, for reasons already discussed multiple times on this site.

    tl;dr
    Single men need to be self assured, and need to make clear early on who is leading and who is the follower. Touch dancing / ballroom dancing is good for this, among other things. All women have a tendency to rebel, don’t let one get away with it from the very start.

  246. feeriker says:

    Josh Harris’s ex, a short hair cut and separate name. Great.

    I’m torn here: should I be feeling “Good riddance, Josh! She was poison that you needed out of your life,” or should I be feeling “all of this serves you right for all the damage that your poisonous book did to so many people’s lives!”?

  247. Anonymous Reader says:

    @feeriker
    Not gonna tell you how to feel, but the Harris divorce is sad to see IMO.

  248. MKT says:

    “or should I be feeling “all of this serves you right for all the damage that your poisonous book did to so many people’s lives!”?”

    What damage specifically? The same people who complain about the book and say it damaged them also hate the manosphere, patriarchy, etc. Despite its flaws and some misinterpretations, the book was more right than wrong when it came to criticizing the post-sexual revolution serial dating culture.

  249. TheTraveler says:

    @Hank F.
    You quoted me totally out of context to back your idea: it’s men’s fault!

    Women don’t lie? I end debate with anyone who takes a quote like that seriously, even metaphorically.

    Women love to lie to men. It used to be shamed. Now it’s celebrated.

  250. Hank Flanders says:

    TheTraveler,

    Haha, OK, it’s not anything at all like you’re thinking. The idea is that you have to pay attention to the way women act, because it’s their actions, most definitely not their words, that will tell you the actual truth. Another way of saying it might be, “Women (‘s actions) don’t lie.” For instance, a woman might say, “Give me a call some time” and then never answer her phone or act disappointed to hear from you even if she doesn’t answer. This exact series of events took place between myself and a female friend in college from time to time. I mean, I thought we were friends at the time, anyway. We actually weren’t, though I guess.

    Anyway, the reason I was bringing any of this up was just to demonstrate that it’s really not that hard to figure out if someone is into you, because if they are, they’ll reciprocate contact in some way and will not make it hard for you.

    Feel free to disagree with that if you want. I could actually use the encouragement right now, as there’s a beautiful woman in whom I’m interested, but so far, she hasn’t made it easy for me, so I just assume she’s not interested. The caveat is that she’s European, and I’m not sure how different they are from American women in this regard, as I haven’t known that many of them in person.

  251. Hank Flanders says:

    *she does answer. (My editing is terrible today).

  252. Paul Barnes says:

    I’m always amused at the amount of kvetching coming from posters such as vfm7916, 7817, SirHamster and thedeti on the topic of MGTOW. Every possible attempt at shaming, dividing, silencing and attacking MGTOW is already happening by people with much more talent for them than you possess. MGTOW is so controversial that even on blogs written from the perspective of sensible men trying to survive in a feminist apocalypse, MGTOW is openly attacked. Despite almost universal condemnation, MGTOW is still growing quickly. This must really make steam come out of your ears.

  253. gdgm+ says:

    Seems to me there’s a lot of fuss over what I’d call an implied “Rorschach question”. How does one respond to a statement like this?

    “Despite their best efforts — hard work, prayer, self-improvement — some good, solid Christian men will not be able to attract / get / keep a woman.”

    Is one’s response:
    A) Harsh words, but maybe / possibly / likely the truth
    B) Wrong – you’re a loser and / or an Eeyore for saying this in public
    C) It depends on each man’s personal situation
    D) Men need to at least try anyway, or try harder
    E) What about the women?
    F) Some combination of the above
    G) Are you *truly* a Christian?
    H) I’ll be poolside, thanks
    I) Other

  254. 7817 says:

    MGTOW is so controversial that even on blogs written from the perspective of sensible men trying to survive in a feminist apocalypse, MGTOW is openly attacked.

    Indeed, sensible men don’t want to listen to losers whine about how there’s no hope.

    Mgtow isn’t any more controversial than any other gathering of loser neckbeards. You are just loathed because you can’t shut up about your victim status.

    You’re not controversial.

    You are a loser.

    Deal with it.

  255. Paul Barnes says:

    7817, I’ve been called worse by better. Perhaps one day you’ll graduate from the name-calling section of the hierarchy of disagreement to the ad hominem section. In the meantime, more and more men are going MGTOW because people like you fail to address any of the arguments (quality of available women, shockingly biased legal system, paternity fraud, cheating, financial risks, etc).

  256. 7817 says:

    @Paul

    address any of the arguments (quality of available women, shockingly biased legal system, paternity fraud, cheating, financial risks, etc).

    No, I have and continue to concede the fact that mgtow is factually correct about all those things.

    The difference between normal men and mgtow is that normal men mitigate risk as they can, and then make the best of the situation, while mgtows whine that everything is to hard so we should all give up until someone fixes the situation. Boring!

    And you are still a loser.

  257. locustsplease says:

    That “real men dont text” video is exactly why i despised christianity before i became a christian. Its a attack on natural masculinity just strange creepy who has actually had sex with a woman and makes something like this. I used to meet christians and get strange crap like that and was i gotta get away from people like this.

    How many light years away from being a real man was the new husband in the video that “being a real man” involved calling a girl on the phone!!? WOW she realized chad blah blah we know the story my goodness heres your used prize and your just a financial secure mark for her have fun.

    The irony is when people write a 249 page book on marriage that comes out 2 years after they are married it just shows how unenviable their relationship is. If she put half the energy into sexing her husband as the book he would have died from exhaustion.

    Writing and publishing a book in two years was her priority not him. Where can i sign up? #thirsty

  258. Oscar says:

    @ Scott

    It’s painful. It’s like Rollo says, it’s amazing Christians ever get laid and reproduce.

    If a woman is into you:

    She will always coincidentally find herself in the same places you are
    She will laugh at your jokes, even the ones that aren’t funny
    You will catch her looking just a little longer at you than normal
    All the sudden develop interests in things you are interested in
    Cancel other things to be with you
    In general, act silly around you

    …and so on.

    And none of those things are slutty or too forward. They are normal. Healthy. Cute. A part of being young and falling for each other.

    Geez.

    Maybe a lot of these young men have never experienced that behavior from a woman. Or, maybe no one has ever explained it to them.

    I graduated college in 2003, almost 16 years ago, and even then Christian girls complained that Christian guys just wouldn’t ask them out. I’m no “alpha” – never have been, never will be. I was blessed with exactly zero charisma. And yet, I got a lot of dates just because I would ask, while other Christian guys wrung their hands over whether they should, or not.

    Obviously, far too many young women are caught up in the feminist life script of college, then career, then (maybe, eventually) marriage, then children. But not all of them are. Nor is every Christian young man eager to marry in his 20s (or able to support a family at that age).

    I get the impression that a lot of decent, Christian young men and women are looking right past each other, because I keep hearing similar complaints both. It’s like someone needs to deliberately bring the two together, because they’ve lost the ability to find each other in

  259. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Paul Barnes says: In the meantime, more and more men are going MGTOW because people like you fail to address any of the arguments (quality of available women, shockingly biased legal system, paternity fraud, cheating, financial risks, etc).

    Sadly, going MGTOW for these reasons is very common. In my deplatformed site, we discussed this issue openly and it enraged Christians even from our local church that were watching my site discussions and then filed complaints to shut me down.

    One of the guys is my “youth group” is 20 (twenty), I would rate him a 6 in appearance, not fat, good head on his shoulder, has a job and take classes at night, he would love to get married and have a family but he is just burned up about “church girls”. He sees how men who are divorced become ruined and that has had a huge impact on him. He is MGTOW already at 20, even does videos on YT about topic.

    To me, it is a tragedy, he is way too young to give up like that so early on. But he has had so many bad experiences with low-value “church girls” and seeing divorced men, he learned about MGTOW and went for it. But his #1 complaint is lack of quality women to date, much less marry.

    No one in most church communities today want to even acknowledge divorceRapes by the courts, open Misandry in Pastoral circles, abuse of fathers with denied custody, denied visitation, impoverishing child support mandates, and more. You are dismissed out of hand.

    To even discuss such subjects was dismissed as “whiny men”, lack of Christian faith, and weakness. No dissent is to be tolerated. I know this because I was shutdown because I dared to engage in the discussion openly (among other ‘controversial’ topics).

    Just to clarify: I am NOT a MGTOW myself. I find MGTOW un-natural to me as a Red Pilled Christian conservative man, but I totally understand why so many man men are going their own way. Instead of mocking them, I try to understand why and see if some want to come back. I personally have 2 friends that have gone MGTOW, one of them became so extreme he does not even want to deal with female waitresses or even address women directly if he can avoid it, all as a result of a divorce and his ex just unilaterally taking his kids to live north of freakin’ Canada, just like that. Nothing he could do. I understand his pain, while at the same time, find his responding to this situation to be extreme and counter-productive.

    I find my friend’s MGTOW position to be extreme, but I have been friends with this guy since I was 22 years old. But instead of mocking his extreme MGTOW views, I work around his views because he is a great guy to be around and we go arcade and bowling all the time. He even started warming up to the idea of attending a Bible study or maybe even church again and all.

    To dismiss the realities that other men have endured and why they are like this today (for example, gone full-on MGTOW) is like dismissing a soldier who has PTSD because you never been to war and cannot understand his struggles.

    I suggest those mocking MGTOW men to walk in their shoes for a day and try to see what brought that on. This coming from a non-MGTOW man here.

  260. Oscar says:

    @ Red Pill Christianity

    One of the guys is my “youth group” is 20 (twenty), I would rate him a 6 in appearance, not fat, good head on his shoulder, has a job and take classes at night, he would love to get married and have a family but he is just burned up about “church girls”. He sees how men who are divorced become ruined and that has had a huge impact on him. He is MGTOW already at 20, even does videos on YT about topic.

    To me, it is a tragedy, he is way too young to give up like that so early on. But he has had so many bad experiences with low-value “church girls” and seeing divorced men, he learned about MGTOW and went for it. But his #1 complaint is lack of quality women to date, much less marry.

    That really is tragic. He’s only 20. Few 20-year-old men are ready to marry. I certainly wasn’t at that age. I married at 28 (my wife was 22) because that’s when I was ready to support a family.

    So, let’s say this young man spends the next five years lifting weights and working on his career. Five years in the squat rack and on the platform do wonders for a man. Simultaneously, he’s building his career, so he improves his ability to provide for a family.

    A 500 lb deadlift and a solid career – by themselves – would go a long way to helping him attract higher quality women. Working on those two things would be a hell of a lot more productive than making YouTube videos. And, he might be able to do more. He could learn to dance. Learn to fight. Learn to play a musical instrument.

    Has any older man explained this to him?

    No one in most church communities today want to even acknowledge divorceRapes by the courts, open Misandry in Pastoral circles, abuse of fathers with denied custody, denied visitation, impoverishing child support mandates, and more. You are dismissed out of hand.

    I’ve done exactly this, and you are right. I’m the only person I know who’s ever cited at church the fact that 70% of divorces are filed by women. The shock on everyone’s faces was mind blowing. But, that’s exactly the problem. If people refuse to acknowledge the risks, then they can’t mitigate the risks.

  261. purge187 says:

    Anyone else think that 7817 is Teddy Spaghetti himself?

  262. Minesweeper says:

    @ZMAN, i’ve had something like that before, she will cause you nothing but trouble (mine did – thank you S).

    Nowadays, in every situation, women have to make every move, for the man to be even moderately secure. With HR, police breathing down your neck with every encounter, really learn this lesson.

    She is prob just wanting some attention, to know you want her, but she dosnt want you.

    @7817, you been through a divorce with kids yet ? after that mgtow just might not seem so pathetic.

  263. Minesweeper says:

    @Oscar says:”I’ve done exactly this, and you are right. I’m the only person I know who’s ever cited at church the fact that 70% of divorces are filed by women. ”

    its 90% for degree educated women. That includes their initiation of separation which leads to divorce.

    If you can find a man who initiated a separation\divorce when they both had degrees, then shake his hand, he is the unicorn.

    I experienced this myself, the stats are skewed beauce men are made to pay the divorce as part of her “settlement”, so it get listed as “male filled”.

    It’s the great secret of all divorce attorneys and judges.

    Don’t tell anyone outside of this blog! , it’s just between you and me 😀

  264. Frank K says:

    I seem to recall that most young women I met in the 1980’s were not wife material. When I see today’s crop of young women, they make the 1980’s skanks look like Saints, and I know that if I was young now and in the market for a wife, that unless I settled for a slut with an N count formerly associated with the world’s oldest profession that I would never be able to marry. But I suppose that makes me a “loser”. Funny thing, used to be that being a loser meant that you were bottom of the barrel: ugly, low IQ, no career, creepy, etc. Now it means you aren’t the cream of the crop: rich, movie star good looks, magnetic personality, etc. Interesting times we live in.

  265. Minesweeper says:

    @Red Pill Christianity says:”Sadly, going MGTOW for these reasons is very common. In my deplatformed site, we discussed this issue openly and it enraged Christians even from our local church that were watching my site discussions and then filed complaints to shut me down.”

    What idiots did that ? it wasn’t that 20yo was it ?

    BTW – ‘GOD’ never said, chain yourself as a slave to a “fem\(insert here) government marriage” contract so that if she ever wants a fu8k someone else your life is destroyed and you lose all access to your kids and everything your earned and are now her financial slave for 40 years.

    A Godly marriage is fully and completely possible nowadays. Just don’t sign a ‘non biblical’ contract.

    I mean what did we expect ??

  266. Minesweeper says:

    The best advice I can ever give both sexes is this:

    Men want to fu8k the help.
    Women want to fu8k the boss.

    You both play those roles. you will reap a bounty.

  267. BillyS says:

    Oscar,

    The fake canard that you have to “be ready to support a family” has ruined our society as much as anything else. Waiting for a family until you have everything worked out perfectly is inane.

    The root flaw is that this dumps all the work on the man, the same problem feminists have. The woman plays no role in making things work – the man must already have everything prepped and ready.

    Where is the aspect of building something? Where is the time put together working to have something worthwhile years later? It is gone! No struggles (in theory at least), just success.

    Many things do commit to this, including the loss of an extended family in almost all cases, but waiting until it is all perfect is bogus.

    I am sure I would have made even more mistakes had I married 5 or so years before I did, but I also could have built a solid family if I had a wife willing to work with me, instead of one who became worldly wise while waiting for me to be “ready”.

  268. BillyS says:

    Note that this “being ready” idea is the same reason we are falling below replacement values with children. So the immoral and those with far different mindsets are reproducing us out of existence.

  269. 7817 says:

    Mgtows themselves aren’t the problem, I pity them.

    But the ones who worship Despair as their god, and then call others to worship Despair with them deserve nothing but contempt.

  270. Minesweeper says:

    @BillyS, you are totally right, where does is say “Men have it all financially ready if you want a wife”, its BS. Look at Proverbs woman. She is nothing like the financial black hole that most (all?) women are.

    @7817, why wouldn’t they despair ? They have been programmed to desire and need women for completeness, now it seems they have to join a suicide cult to have a chance of that.

    Do you just hate the virgins or the divorced men also ?

  271. Minesweeper says:

    I’m now living in a place that would be described as a “man desert”.

    Maybe 3% have fathers at home, the effect on the kids is enormous, the other effect is most of the women seem to be going absolutely crazy (screaming at each other all the time). Turns out the only thing that regulates female behaviour is – men.

    Welcome to the feminist utopia.

    You can really see, God made man for himself, and he made women for man, without man, women go absolutely mad, like men without God.

    You wouldn’t believe it, unless you had seen it with your own eyes.

    God’s plan for life, is the only one that works.

  272. ZMAN says:

    @minesweeper

    You know I thought about it and I realized that when women wanted me they would make themselves open to me talking to them. She really doesn’t and comes off either extremely shy or just arrogant. Quite frankly, she seems to just be trolling for attention and I am going to go after other women.

    I appreciate what you are saying. Thank you for your experience also as it confirms what I am thinking.

  273. Minesweeper says:

    @Zman, lets see if this works 😀

    https://giphy.com/gifs/ZgYBhq1x7L1bW/html5

  274. Minesweeper says:

    Nope, 2nd shot :

  275. Minesweeper says:

    @ZMAN, I couldnt have said it better myself (the above), I wish you well in all your endeavours.

  276. astrapto says:

    In case anyone’s still confused, he’s using “UMC” = “Upper middle class,” not “United Methodist Church.” Took me a bit.

  277. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Thanks for clarifying UMC = Upper Middle Class. On my old site I links all acronyms to a database of acronyms and slangs used on ManoSphere and Christian discussions. 🙂

    Now, there are two problems at work here:

    1) Women want to “have it all” and do it all (college, career, marriage, kids, Kardashian lifestyle, divorce and find millionaire body-builder at age 50 in some Island, a-la Eat Pray Love book). I think this has been throughout discuss here on Dal’s and Fabius’ sites.

    2) The American Dream of a middle class lifestyle (not upper, just middle) is becoming more difficult with each passing day. Mass immigration to depress wages, increased inflation of housing, outsourcing of jobs, and concentration of unbelievable amounts wealth into very very very few hands (that in turn use to buy political power) are some of the problems.

    Marriage has indeed become a luxury for the wealthy. If an UMC guy making $150k+ a year has to pay $60k in child support and alimony, he ain’t starving. He still has $90 grand a year to have a nice car, decent house, vacations, retirement savings. Most guys are pulling $35k-$50k in middle class today, that would be consider UMC in many States today, actually. If the guy pulling $50k has to pay $15k in child support/alimony, he is left with $35k, not much to live on. He will save $0 for retirement and is one paycheck away from an indefinite county jail stay on “failure to pay” child support.

    But how many guys do YOU personally know pulling that $150k+ cash a year in America today? Very few, if any at all. So the guy making $50k is fighting to KEEP all of his $50k Marriage and kids are a threat to his livelihood, freedom, and wellbeing. Even if he is able to keep his marriage together, $50k a year is very little to care for a wife, 1 baby, and very basic housing in places like Orlando, Salt Lake City, Denver, or even a dumpy place New Orleans. In Portland, Seattle, SanFran, San Diego or most of California, $50k means being homeless or living in a ghetto. A kid and a wife is simply unaffordable, it is guaranteed property for life. Daycare here in my area is a “subscription”, system, $1,600/month for 9am-4pm Monday-Fri, every extra hour is more. Don’t use you still have to pay and they have a short waiting list.

    Sadly, we are making having a wife and child in America so expensive, so financially dangerous for men, it is a luxury only the rich can afford. The middle class and lower-middle will find themselves proceed out of this market. Illegal aliens, on other hand, pay $0 tax, earn under the table, and get a welfare package so generous, they are ones driving child birth in America today.

    That is why so many see the future as bleak for the USA and the West as a whole. We tax and prevent citizens to fund the kids of illegals invaders. It is a disastrous policy for sure. But a very real thing.

  278. Luke says:

    Mandy Hale was born in 1982. That makes her ~37. She doesn’t have a husband, and seems unlikely to want to bear a bastard. Why does anyone think odds are she’ll have a child? I’d bet the other way at this point.

  279. Red Pill Christianity says:

    “The truth is…I don’t know exactly why I’m still single. I think I’m starting to come to a better understanding of why…but for the moment, it’s still just shadowed and blurry truth that I’m struggling to make sense of. But the reasons I often convince myself that I’m still single aren’t pretty.

    I never meet guys. Like…literally NEVER. A few years ago I felt like I could simply walk into a room and command the attention of the men in the room. I had no trouble meeting men. I got hit on regularly. But something changed along the way and that’s not my experience anymore. I suspect it was more an internal change than an external one, as I honestly think I physically look better now than I did ten years ago.”

    ^^^ That ^^^

    The modern woman has been told a lie – that she can “have it all”, that she will be hotter at 50 than she was at 25. That she is unstoppable. Unaccountable for her beashvior, unburdened by criminals and family laws. You Go Guuurl.

    Then comes The Wall. All humans hit The Wall, but women hit them particularly hard after 30. Men usually age much better, but all men also hit their own Wall in time.

    Female lack of self-introspection and lack of self-awareness is probably as bad as You Go Girlsim and Feminism.

  280. BillyS says:

    Astrapo,

    I am finally starting to see that difference, though even my mind errs when seeing UMC at first many times!

  281. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    The fake canard that you have to “be ready to support a family” has ruined our society as much as anything else. Waiting for a family until you have everything worked out perfectly is inane.

    Who said anything about “perfectly”?

  282. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Note that this “being ready” idea is the same reason we are falling below replacement values with children. So the immoral and those with far different mindsets are reproducing us out of existence.

    I waited to get married until I was ready to support a family (28 yo, brand new Army Engineer 2LT). Now I have 9 children at age 43. My wife was 22 when we married. How exactly did my waiting until I was ready to support a family contribute to “falling below replacement values with children”?

  283. info says:

    @Oscar @BillyS
    “Note that this “being ready” idea is the same reason we are falling below replacement values with children. So the immoral and those with far different mindsets are reproducing us out of existence.”

    Men can more afford to take this route than women.

    The problem is women being treated as men. Even though their biology says otherwise.

  284. thedeti says:

    Real Men Don’t Text?

    Christian Men need to man up and date?

    Righto.

    How about this:

    Real women wear dresses

    Real women don’t slut around

    Real women don’t live and die by the selfie

    Real women say yes to a date

    Real women make themselves available

    Christian women need to woman up and stop being bitches

    Christian women need to woman up and say “yes” when asked on a date

    Christian women need to woman up and lose weight

    Christian women need to woman up and learn domestic skills

    Christian women need to woman up and grow their hair long

  285. thedeti says:

    Hank Flanders/The Traveler:

    Re: “women don’t lie”

    women lie all the time when they talk . They don’t lie when they act/take action/refrain from acting:

    The Medium Is the Message. https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/06/the-medium-is-the-message/ One of Rollo’s most important articles.

  286. Anonymous Reader says:

    Red Pill Christian
    He is MGTOW already at 20, even does videos on YT about topic.

    That’s foolishness. Before he carries out Oscar’s suggestions, he should stop associating with anything MGTOW. I strongly suspect he’s been soaking in MGTOW forums and YouTube channels. At the age of 20 he should stop wasting time on childishness. Maybe his mother frivorced his father, but that doesn’t predestine him to the same fate. Maybe he was raised by a frivorces – all the more reason to associate with men who know something, and avoid men who have been feminized.

    What we read / view does affect how we think. How a man thinks comes out in his actions. I recall a book or two that discuss these concepts…

    [Frivorce, divorce rape, etc.]

    To even discuss such subjects was dismissed as “whiny men”, lack of Christian faith, and weakness.

    Sure, Traditional Conservative churchgoers are generally conservative feminists who have zero clue about certain realities. That just means a man has to calibrate more carefully when around them, it doesn’t mean a man should remain silent.

    No dissent is to be tolerated. I know this because I was shutdown because I dared to engage in the discussion openly (among other ‘controversial’ topics).

    Sigh. I understand the temptation. But when one is a minority in a culturally conservative group, one cannot just dump out a box o’ truth. I wager you did not learn all the truths about women overnight, probably you are still learning as we all are.

    Look, what’s the first rule of “FIght Club”? Eh? What is it?

    The whole culture is feminized, including the vast majority of churches. It’s just not possible to fit The Glasses onto an entire church in one sitting. Work on a few men at a time, that’s more useful. Teach with your actions. Be ready to produce mild, calm words and in a church setting have your Bible quotes all lined up & ready to go. When some man talks about “the women in Proverbs” meaning Proverbs 31, calmly and gently point out that other quotes exist. Be ready to explain what “contentious” means.

    Bear in mind that far too many churchgoing people cannot handle too much truth at once. They don’t want to hear about any woman who would say “My husband has gone to Egypt…” because their mental firmware is all about how Wonderful women are, not anything else.

    Either in this thread or a previous one, Lost Patrol explained about being a “partisan”. This is very important. Partisans never surrender, but they also avoid pitched battles in the open.

  287. Hank Flanders says:

    Luke

    Mandy Hale was born in 1982. That makes her ~37. She doesn’t have a husband, and seems unlikely to want to bear a bastard. Why does anyone think odds are she’ll have a child? I’d bet the other way at this point.

    Actually, she’s 40 or close to it now, but anyway, my point wasn’t that she would necessarily have children completely naturally but that there’s a good chance she would become a mom either naturally, by using fertility treatments, through adopting, or by becoming a step-mom. I think she and women in her position can still land a guy and become a mom if they want. This will probably mean settling to an extent, but it’s either that or be single.

  288. 7817 says:

    @AR:

    The whole culture is feminized, including the vast majority of churches. It’s just not possible to fit The Glasses onto an entire church in one sitting. Work on a few men at a time, that’s more useful. Teach with your actions. Be ready to produce mild, calm words

    Great stuff, I needed the reminder that to Be is more important than to Say.
    Thanks

  289. BillyS says:

    AR,

    You have let others define terms for you.

    [Mat 19:12 NLT] 12 Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made eunuchs by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

    MGTOW is not the evil you claim. Some are forced into it, especially by the modern system.

  290. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    MGTOW is not the evil you claim.

    Where did I make that claim?

  291. 7817 says:

    @minesweeper

    why wouldn’t they despair ? They have been programmed to desire and need women for completeness, now it seems they have to join a suicide cult to have a chance of that.

    “Seems.” You really want to argue this unhinged line of thought about the suicide cult?

    Do you just hate the virgins or the divorced men also ?

    I have contempt for the worshippers of despair.

    Do you hate successful men, or just men who persevere even when things are hard?

  292. Minesweeper says:

    @7817 says:“Seems.” You really want to argue this unhinged line of thought about the suicide cult?

    I have contempt for the worshippers of despair.

    Do you hate successful men, or just men who persevere even when things are hard?”

    neither, you ?

  293. 7817 says:

    No, I don’t hate them, most of them have something to teach me.

  294. BillyS says:

    AR,

    You told him to get this young man to avoid that label like the plague. Or did I misread what you wrote? I will retract my statement if so.

    I find it like the “alt-right” label. It has been used poorly by some on different sides of politics these days, but that doesn’t make the principle wrong.

    Some of us have been forced into that even though we tried to go the other way, something that often gets lost in the arguments over it.

  295. AnonS says:

    @Splashman

    We brainstorm frequently about how to meet more guys in the target age range (22-28). She attends young-adult groups at 2 different churches, but there aren’t many men in those and most churchians don’t satisfy our 3 criteria.

    Different then what I observe on the East Coast. A bunch of stable guys and very few girls actually interested in marriage (outside of the dream of a high status wedding ‘some day’). The life script of career first and using daycare is everywhere.

    Currently we have 2 good prospects; one just finished his engineering degree (23), the other is 27 and is a tradesman. Next week I’m having lunch with the latter, planinng to do the same soon with the former.

    Good news.

    I assume you were joking about the applications thing, but if it were possible to do so without causing a rift in the space-time continuum, I would advertise on Craigslist, as meeting suitable men is proving more difficult than I first thought. I know nothing about online dating services; a few friends have suggested that route, but I’ve avoided it reflexively.

    Which leads me to ask the Dalrock crowd: Have any suggestions for meeting suitable men? (Suitable = fears God, hard worker, loves learning).

    ** Heh, just realized there is a fourth criteria: has to be interested in marriage. Which means he has to be clinically insane, because only an idiot would get married in the USA’s legal environment.

    I still look 23 at 33 from good genes and lifting weights / eating healthy. I study apologetics, have an MBA, and learning is my #1 strength.

  296. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    You told him to get this young man to avoid that label like the plague.

    No, I did not write those words. Look back up the thread and see what I actually wrote:

    That’s foolishness. Before he carries out Oscar’s suggestions, he should stop associating with anything MGTOW. I strongly suspect he’s been soaking in MGTOW forums and YouTube channels. At the age of 20 he should stop wasting time on childishness. Maybe his mother frivorced his father, but that doesn’t predestine him to the same fate. Maybe he was raised by a frivorces – all the more reason to associate with men who know something, and avoid men who have been feminized.

    What we read / view does affect how we think. How a man thinks comes out in his actions. I recall a book or two that discuss these concepts…

    I stand by those words. A man who is maybe 2 years out of high school should not be mired in despair. He should avoid websites and YT channels that counsel despair. Instead he should be learning the physical and mental tools that will enable him to control himself, control his immediate surroundings, help other men, lead other people and so forth.

    What do you find objectionable about this?

    Or did I misread what you wrote? I will retract my statement if so.

    BillyS, I have no idea what you read. Something inside your head, maybe.

    Some of us have been forced into that even though we tried to go the other way, something that often gets lost in the arguments over it.

    Most men here know at least part of your story, Billy, I’ve been her longer than you so I remember just about all of it. I completely understand why you are in the situation. Don’t confuse me with those dropins from Vox Day’s site who pour contempt on you. I’m not them, they’re not me. It’s not really going to do you any good to take your anger towards them and direct it at me. Ask me how I know this.

    But can you agree that it is a bad thing for a man of 20 years old to despair of any hope at all? Isn’t there a little advice in the Bible regarding that?

  297. 7817 says:

    @Billy

    For what it’s worth I don’t hold you in contempt, and don’t think you are a loser. You aren’t encouraging anyone to despair. Your situation is a difficult one. I wish I knew how to help you.

  298. Paul Barnes says:

    It’s very telling that engaging in self-defense against a biased legal system is equated with “despair”. The message for men out of people like 7817 is clear: go throw yourselves on the sacrificial altar of The Greater Good™ and when you’re sacrificed, it was your fault. You didn’t take the mysterious, never-explained steps to mitigate the risks. Maybe they include “just lift more bro” and “buy our pheromone soap”. The very thought of NOT placing your body on the sacrificial altar means you’re a loser/gamma/beta/incel/blackpiller. STOP telling other men that they can refuse to place their bodies on the sacrificial altar of The Greater Good™!!!!

    I want to state, again, that it brings me great pleasure to remind 7817 that MGTOW is absolutely exploding in popularity and is here to stay.

  299. Anonymous Reader says:

    It’s very telling that engaging in self-defense against a biased legal system is equated with “despair”.

    This year I went hiking in the Rockies. In some places there was still quite a bit of snow on the ground. I know the habits of bears, and so I avoided situations that might bring me into conflict with them. However, I did not go running around screaming at people “WATCH OUT! THE BEARS ARE GONNA EAT YOU! WATCH OUT!” because that would be foolish and childish.

    In Yellowstone I saw a buffalo on the trail ahead of my group, about 15 yards ahead in mixed scrub. We turned around, went back some distance and worked around the buff. I did not scream “WATCH OUT! THERE”S A BUFFALO AHEAD! HE’S GONNA GORE YOU AND TRAMPLE YOU” because that would also be foolish and childish.

    On the other hand, I didn’t suggest to city folks and urbanite Asians that they go take a selfie with the buffalo calf or find a grizzly to play tag with.

    Know the risks before going into bear country. Manage the risk by understanding the habits and instincts of bears[1]. Do not fear them, respect them.

    Running around in perpetual fear is foolish. Encouraging others to take stupid and potentially dangerous risks is also. I do not understand why some find these concepts difficult to grasp.

    [1] Never run from any bear. Never, never, never. It will trigger their predation instinct; by running, you will look like food. Since a bear can run uphill faster than a man can run downhill it is a very bad idea to “look like food” to even a little brown bear of only 220 pounds / 100 kilos.

  300. 7817 says:

    I want to state, again, that it brings me great pleasure to remind 7817 that MGTOW is absolutely exploding in popularity and is here to stay.

    Only someone dedicated to the worship of despair would joyfully say that. Go worship your god of despair Paul, but stop trying to convert others. I won’t join your death cult.

  301. BillyS says:

    7817,

    They are missing the other half of the truth: there is hope.

    What hope is there? I married a Christian woman well before the current idiocy was fully entrenched. What hope do I have now? How can I tell young men in good faith, “Jump in!”? “Ignore the sharks, you may not get eaten….”?

    I am working on writing a book on the topic, but it certainly won’t be filled with lots of feel good happy thoughts. I won’t encourage full MGTOW per se, but I will definitely note the dangers and the absolute fact that you cannot completely protect yourself from the dangers no matter how much you try.

    Things are far more messed up today than many (most?) want to realize.

  302. Minesweeper says:

    @AR,”Know the risks before going into bear country. Manage the risk by understanding the habits and instincts of bears[1]. Do not fear them, respect them.”

    Guys going MGTOW are well aware of the risks and that there is no mitigation for them. That sweet little bear you were feeding candy too for years, can now turn round and ask the park ranger for half your limbs. And she will get it.

    I’ve had an close encounter with a bear in the rockies, within 6ft, lets just say I ran and survived ! After it let out the loudest growl i’d ever heard I wasnt going to discuss – well, you know, ive heard some stories…..

    If your danger-close you behave differently. And that’s unfortunately now the gov-fem-soaked marriage.

    I’m all for a godly marriage with Gods rules.

  303. Minesweeper says:

    Surviving the bear was alot easier than surviving the marriage !

  304. Anonymous Reader says:

    Minsweeper
    Guys going MGTOW are well aware of the risks and that there is no mitigation for them.

    Why is there no mitigation of risk for some men?

  305. Minesweeper says:

    @AR, “Why is there no mitigation of risk for some men?”

    because our feminist governments and the churches all caved, the strength of men failed.

  306. BillyS says:

    7817,

    Look, all mgtows have to do is not be eternal Eeyore. Is that really to much to ask?

    “There are sharks in the water!”
    “But swimming is so worthwhile, quit being negative!”
    “There really are lots of sharks in the water!”
    “There you go with your negativity again!”

    Great conversation. Ignore the sharks and sing “Don’t Worry, Be Happy!”

  307. AnonS says:

    There is reducing risk, there is no eliminating risk.

    Boomers will go “I took risks! Be like me!” Not realizing that the amount of unreducable risk has continued to increase every year.

    As the culture gets more toxic, it takes more strength of character in the woman to resist. Being “better” can help but doesn’t remove the fried icecream problem, spend too much time at work = doesn’t care about the family. Spend too much time with family = not providing enough. And any strategy that relies on the average man all being “above average” is doomed to fail.

    This requires more extreme vetting that limits the pool even further. Meaning MGTOW becomes the outcome even if it wasn’t the goal.

  308. Minesweeper says:

    @AnonS says:” Not realizing that the amount of unreducable risk has continued to increase every year.

    As the culture gets more toxic, it takes more strength of character in the woman to resist.”

    Absolutely, the fact the laws are continually moving in 1 direction, the “contract” you signed 15-20 years is non-existent. There is also the fact women have been known to go “divorce shopping”, as the “contract you signed 20 years ago, can be moved to any state any country and the new divorce laws in that region now apply !

    You couldnt make it up, its so unbelievable.

    Would you really want to sign a contract that the terms of which will be decided 20 years down the line in another continent and thats even before family judges get involved who can throw their spin on almost anything.

    In short, you are signing something that you have no idea how it will be played out.

    As Opus says, the marriage contract would be illegal under consumer and I would guess any other law.

  309. John James R says:

    Can someone tell me why MGTOW automatically equates with despair? I see it as just the opposite myself.

  310. John James R says:

    Wow. “Man Up” being trojan-horsed into advice on how to deal with wild animals. LOL

  311. thedeti says:

    The problem is that 7817 and others demand that men marry, reproduce and save Western Civilization. The only way for most men to mitigate the risk is not to marry or reproduce. What do we tell the BillySes of the world, who did everything they were supposed to do, played by all the rules, and STILL lost? He mitigated the risks. He took calculated risks. He did all he could to manage the risks. He still lost. And he’s just one of many.

    People keep telling us there’s lots and lots of nice Christian girls to marry. Where? Where are all these girls?

    Nothing will keep a woman with a man, other than her sexual attraction to him and whatever moral compunction she has about divorce. The minute a man’s wife decides she has no compunction about divorcing him, his marriage is over and he has absolutely nothing to say about it. And this is Christian women. Christian women are divorcing their husbands at unacceptably high rates, last we checked, at around 25%. If you’re married your chances of divorce in general are one in 2. If you’re Christian, your chances are 1 in 2. If you’re college educated your chances are roughly 1 in 6.

    If one of every 6 commercial flights crashed, would you ever fly? Didn’t think so.

    And let’s say you’ve managed the risks, and your marriage has crashed. You are now going to lose. Best case scenario: No alimony. You get your children 50% of the time. But since you likely outearn your wife, you will pay her child support based on a statutory formula. Half of everything you earned or purchased during the marriage will go to her. Half your pension will go to her when you retire. You will lose, big time. It will cost you a lot of money.

    Worse, you now have, AT BEST, 50% of time with your kids. You really don’t have much of a hand in raising them. You can’t influence their up bringing. You can’t influence their education. You can’t influence their moral training. You can’t very well tell them to get and stay married, now can you?

    The entire purpose of getting married was to build something and pass it on for posterity. You can’t do that now. Instead you’ve passed it on to your ex wife, who will squander it on men, fun living and vacations. You’ve passed it on to the State and to divorce lawyers.

    But let’s say you stay married. You have no idea how she will change. She could change for the worse. You’ve managed all the risks, you did the best you could. Life happened, and she’s now become a turbobitch. Yes, she’s still your wife. But she’s now a turbobitch and is making your life hell. You wash her in the Word. You pray. You game. You impose consequences. She’s still a turbobitch. So now you have to live with this for the rest of your life. And so do your kids. And there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. All you can do is put up with it, or divorce. In which case, see the paragraphs above.

    And you can be a masculine manly man, and this could still happen. You could earn 7 figures, and this still happen. You could be Brad Pitt, and this still happen. You could have the body of Adonis, and this still happen. There is literally nothing you can do, no measure you can take, no precautions or checks or safeguards, that can mitigate the risks.

    No, I am NOT demanding that ALL the risks be ELIMINATED. I am noting that there is nothing you can do even to manage the risks and reduce them to a reasonable level. Moreover, there is nothing you can do to manage the loss once the risk you tried to avoid, happens. Once the risk is realized, the loss becomes uncontrollable and determined by the state, your soon to be ex wife’s whims, and
    the advice of her divorce attorney (that you will be paying for).

    Yes, yes, I know. It is possible that none of these things happen. But if they don’t, it is not because you mitigated the risks. It is because you were really lucky, or because the woman you married currently has some sort of moral compunction about divorce raping you, or because she is hopelessly sexually attracted to you and realizes you’re the best she could get.

    That’s it. The ONLY things that hold marriages together now are what the wife wants, realizes, believes, and is willing to do and not do. The ONLY thing that keeps a woman with a man is how sexually attracted she is to him. That’s it.

  312. thedeti says:

    Sorry— if you’re Christian, your chances of divorce are 1 in 4.

  313. 7817 says:

    @BillyS

    I won’t encourage full MGTOW per se, but I will definitely note the dangers and the absolute fact that you cannot completely protect yourself from the dangers no matter how much you try.

    This is the truth, which I have no problem with. Rose colored glasses and ignoring the risks is just as bad as telling everyone to surrender because there is no hope.

  314. thedeti says:

    You have no power or authority over your wife. You cannot make her do anything. You cannot make her stay married to you.

    You cannot tell her “no”. If you do that, police construe that as “abuse” and you will be frogmarched out of your house, put in the back of a squad car, and subjected to a restraining order.

    You cannot put her on a budget and tell her to stop overspending. Again, that’s “abuse’.

    You cannot tell her she must have sex with you or she is not a wife. You cannot demand sex from her. That’s rape or attempted rape.

    You cannot put any expectations on her or even remind her of her obligations. You are not allowed to have any standards for her conduct or treatment of you. You are not allowed to condition the continuation of the marriage on her good conduct or good treatment of you.

    You cannot tell her “you must do XYZ or I will divorce you”. That’s “abuse” under the Duluth model.

    You cannot fight with her, raise your voice to her, or move her out of the way when she is standing in the doorway preventing you from leaving a room.

    You do any of these things, all she has to do is drop dime to the local police department, peep “I feel unsafe”, and posthaste, large men in navy blue uniforms and carrying guns will arrive to stomp the shit out of whatever is making your wife feel unsafe.

    You do any of these things, all she has to do is get a lawyer to sue you for divorce, and you’ll spend the next 2 years living in a van down by the river while she has sex with a parade of men in your house, on your bed, while your children watch TV downstairs or sleep in the next room.

  315. thedeti says:

    You have no power or authority over your marriage. You have no power or authority over your home or what goes on there. Your wife can simply tell you “no i will not do that. Go ahead. Divorce me. I will have a family court judge ram a spike studded baseball bat up your ass.” (And the judge will do it, too.) “I will get the house and the kids. You will get to pay and pay and pay. You’ll never see the kids again, and you’ll be living in poverty while I live off your money.”

    And she’s right. She can do it, and if she decides to do that, that is exactly what will happen.

    No one will restrain her. Not you, not her parents, not your pastor or priest. Not her friends or anyone else. Hell, if anything, everyone except you is cheering her on to divorce you. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, keeps a woman with you other than her own moral compass and her sexual attraction to you.

  316. Minesweeper says:

    @thedeti, ” If you’re college educated your chances are roughly 1 in 6.”

    Whats interesting is that degree educated women initiate 90% of the divorces in their marriages and almost all the separations.

    Also, where did you get those stats from ? From my old large “charismatic” circle, 50% divorces, all initiated by college\uni educated women. Chaos, permanent fallouts and “church\ministry” collapse ensued shortly after.

    Women really do function like a herd. I guess we had our very own divorce storm.

    It really is true, if a separation\divorce has just happened – the odds if you are connected to them of it happening to you are very very high, these women really should be isolated from the group, for the sake of everyone else.

  317. 7817 says:

    @theDeti

    The problem is that 7817 and others demand that men marry, reproduce and save Western Civilization.

    Please link to where I have demanded this. Don’t lie about what I’ve said Deti, your advice has been very beneficial to me, but not enough for me to let you put words in my mouth.

    My issue is with those that have no hope and then have a perverse enjoyment in spreading that despair to others.

    I think the risks of marriage are horrible. There are those that are unwilling to take the risks, and that is understandable. As I have continually said, men quietly going mgtow aren’t nearly the problem that the spazzes are shouting “All is lost! Despair! Surrender!”

    It doesn’t bother me if no men get married in the legal sense. I want men to be strong and raise their families, inside or outside the law. None of us have it as tough as the men on the frontier 200-250 years ago, they were despised by the East Coast society and fought against by the Indians, but they conquered all the way across the continent.

  318. BillyS says:

    Josh Harris sounds very similar to Miley Cyrus in many ways….

    Quite “edgy” these days to reject solid Christian principles for some. Though few churches bother to really hold to those principles. Even many who claim to do that will undermine them in a second in the case of a woman crying “but I am in an abusive marriage!”

  319. John James R says:

    spazzes are shouting “All is lost! Despair! Surrender!”

    I’ve never once seen that in years of surfing the manosphere. “Surrender” is not the spirit of most MGTOWs at all, nor is ‘despair.’ Most are exhilarated, energized and soooo glad that they are not their friends; either mangled by divorce or saddled with a sexless cow. 7817, I’m starting to get this sneaking hunch that your wife looks awful in a bikini. Thus, you HATE men for not falling into the trap you fell into. Just a hunch bro!

  320. thedeti says:

    7817:

    You want men to be with women and reproduce and have children. You want them to take on that risk.

    You said:

    “It doesn’t bother me if no men get married in the legal sense. I want men to be strong and raise their families, inside or outside the law.”

    You want men to take women for their own, impregnate them, and have children with them. You want them to take on the risks which I have painstakingly explained and shown cannot be reasonably managed nor the consequences reasonably mitigated. Sure, they’re manageable and mitigated for the women and children. But not for the men you are demanding take on those risks. In the event of failure (and there is a not insignificant chance of failure), the costs will be disproportionately borne by the men. Those risks cannot be managed or mitigated for men. Society has decided that to the extent they will be managed or mitigated, men will bear the cost of failure.

    The only reason I’m not in the same boat as many of the men here is because I’m really really lucky. My wife has a moral compunction against divorce, wants to keep our family together, and needs my income unencumbered by additional debt or problems a divorce would cause.

    And that is the ONLY thing holding our marriage together – that currently, today, for now, my wife has decided the costs of divorce outweigh the benefits. My wife has decided, currently, for the time being, that being married to me benefits her more than being divorced from me. If and when that changes, it is all she wrote, there is nothing I can do to stop it, and I will be paying for it for the rest of my life.

    You need to realize this: The only reason marriages stay together now is because the wives will it. That’s IT.

  321. Minesweeper says:

    @thedeti, your comments above – beautifully said. They should be given to everyman upon his engagement.

  322. Minesweeper says:

    @thedeti, i’m gonna nominate you for the set of comments of the year – your on fire.

  323. Nathan Bruno says:

    The difference between here and Rollo’s place is that there’s an ostensibly Christian perspective here, yes? I don’t see it anymore in these MGTOW discussions. There’s another barn-burner of sniping underway here. It’s always the same talking points. When’s the last Bible verse been quoted?

    If the reason not to marry is your savings account, your social standing, or your posterity, or your reason to marry is “saving western civilization”, you’ve got some idols. If your reason not to marry is because you’ve got to get right with God, or your reason to marry is that you want to raise up some godly children, good on you. Remember, we’re all slaves; we need to be obedient.

    If you’re a man who is burning with desire to have sex with women, and this leads you to sinful behavior, you’ve got to marry. There’s no negotiating with God to let you use a prostitute or to sit in the dark and indulge yourself with the illuminated screen because you’ve got a bad government (God gave you this government). Go read Lamentations, and realize that’s a man of God who loved his people and got to watch them starve, eat their own infants, and then be killed by barbarian invaders … and his answer was to praise God who did this by His sovereign action.

    If you’re a man who is burning with desire, and you can’t get a woman, your option is to pray for God to take that desire away from you. God might choose to do that. God might not. That means you’re going to go cold turkey for life.

    If God doesn’t take that away, and you burn with desire, and it causes you to sin – you’re a slave to Christ, first. Prepare to suffer. Find the best girl you can find who appears to be a Christian, fears the wrath of God, and also has some social connection to a church and her parents that would be scandalized by her divorcing – and then wife her up.

    Know the examples of earthly ease we were given:
    – They stoned Stephen to death.
    – James was beheaded.
    – They stoned and jailed Paul. We have the list of his worldly possessions in his letter to Timothy – NOT MUCH! Paul was denied biological posterity.
    – Hosea got to enjoy a wife of whoredom who made him look foolish.
    – Isaiah got to walk around naked for three years to demonstrate humiliation.
    – Jeremiah was beaten, stuck in the stocks, basically buried alive in a cistern, imprisoned, denied any children or wife, and permitted to watch his nation burn before being dragged off as a prisoner to Egypt so that he could be mocked by people who had not listened to him earlier.

    The Lord whom we are called to be like was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. When I read the stories of those who’ve been divorce raped, I am indeed sorry, for in this you have tasted what it’s like to be acquainted with grief…that’s the sin condition of the world. Everyone has tasted the corruption of this world in grief in some way; that’s how yours came to you. It’s the lot of sojourners in a sinful world to suffer. Welcome to the brutal planet. All the greater is our Lord for having delivered us from this state for eternity.

    There’s peace with the Lord in being obedient to God even on the corner of a roof.

  324. 7817 says:

    @Deti

    Nothing will keep a woman with a man, other than her sexual attraction to him

    Huh. Seems like there’s a clue here somewhere.

    Totally unrelated, are you no longer a proponent of Game Deti?

    Christian women are divorcing their husbands at unacceptably high rates, last we checked, at around 25%. If you’re married your chances of divorce in general are one in 2. If you’re Christian, your chances are 1 in 2.

    Typo? 25% is one in four, correct?

    If one of every 6 commercial flights crashed, would you ever fly? Didn’t think so.

    Marriage does not equal engineering, who knew. It’s more like flying a plane in combat, and guess what, some get shot down. I don’t like it either, but it’s the situation I’m already in so I’m flying the f’ing plane man.

    And let’s say you’ve managed the risks, and your marriage has crashed. You are now going to lose. You will lose, big time. It will cost you a lot of money.

    No shit.

    Worse, you now have, AT BEST, 50% of time with your kids. You really don’t have much of a hand in raising them. You can’t influence their up bringing. You can’t influence their education. You can’t influence their moral training.

    This isn’t utopia man, there’s going to be casualties. I don’t like it either but I’m not going to lie and say it doesn’t happen. We have to learn to be Hard Men.

    The entire purpose of getting married was to build something and pass it on for posterity. You can’t do that now.

    If you’ve had kids you’ve already built something for posterity. There is hope, even if things look bad.

    But let’s say you stay married. You have no idea how she will change. She could change for the worse. You’ve managed all the risks, you did the best you could. Life happened, and she’s now become a turbobitch. Yes, she’s still your wife. But she’s now a turbobitch and is making your life hell. You wash her in the Word. You pray. You game. You impose consequences. She’s still a turbobitch. So now you have to live with this for the rest of your life. And so do your kids. And there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. All you can do is put up with it, or divorce.

    You need to take a step back. Read some Rian Stone. “The Stay Plan is the Go Plan.”

    And you can be a masculine manly man, and this could still happen. You could earn 7 figures, and this still happen. You could be Brad Pitt, and this still happen. You could have the body of Adonis, and this still happen.

    Ok.

    There is literally nothing you can do, no measure you can take, no precautions or checks or safeguards, that can mitigate the risks.

    Ok guys, time to close up shop. Deti says this whole corner of the internet is a waste of time now unless you just need a place to whine and bitch. Everybody go home, we’ll have our first Official Pity Party tomorrow. No point in Game. No point in Athol Kay and MAPs. No point in lifting. No point in getting your finances in order. 15 years of experimenting and research wasted.

    Good thing we figured it out now.

    No, I am NOT demanding that ALL the risks be ELIMINATED.

    You sure about this? Because that’s sure what it sounds like.

    I am noting that there is nothing you can do even to manage the risks and reduce them to a reasonable level.

    Yeah I know, the manosphere is pointless.

    Yes, yes, I know. It is possible that none of these things happen. But if they don’t, it is not because you mitigated the risks. It is because you were really lucky, or because the woman you married currently has some sort of moral compunction about divorce raping you, or because she is hopelessly sexually attracted to you and realizes you’re the best she could get.

    Simply, you are wrong. I implemented what I’ve learned and things have improved. Radically. Things could blow up tomorrow, but at minimum it has bought me time.

    That’s it. The ONLY things that hold marriages together now are what the wife wants, realizes, believes, and is willing to do and not do. The ONLY thing that keeps a woman with a man is how sexually attracted she is to him. That’s it.

    Seems like Rollo wrote an essay on mental point of origin once. Sounds like maybe you should go read it again, try to internalize maybe.

  325. thedeti says:

    Our society has decided that, in the event of marriage failure, someone’s gotta pay, and that “someone” is men. Our society has decided that men must pay for marital failure with their bodies, their sex lives, their money, and their mental health.

    And I can’t in good conscience tell men they need to go “once more into the breach”.

  326. BillyS says:

    Feeriker,

    It wasn’t the book that was wrong, it was him marrying a loose rebellious woman.

    Courtship could work just fine, if society supported it. Modern culture does not and will not, even if we call something just that. The problem lies with modern society, not the idea.

    Does anyone here really advocate the modern dating culture as a good way to find a wife? Many of you opposed something else, but do you support the mess we have now? The pairing and breaking that happens all the time, especially to young men and young women?

  327. 7817 says:

    @Deti

    But not for the men you are demanding take on those risks.

    I’m not demanding anyone take on the risks. Stop lying about what I said. Reading comprehension bro, I said I understand why some wouldn’t. Just for clarification, for the men that DO take the risk, I hope they can raise strong families inside or outside the law, I don’t care which.

    I’ve clarified. Now stop lying.

    I know this is an emotional discussion but you know better than this.

  328. thedeti says:

    7817: Things improved because your wife, currently, today, has decided that being married to you is better than being divorced from you. You – and I- are one job loss, injury, financial problem, accident, EatPrayLove, or other mishap away from total marriage failure. And if that happens, we’ll be made to pay.

    You know I’m not saying it’s worthless. I’m laying out what the risks are, that they can’t be mitigated or managed to your advantage, and that if and when your wife decides she just doesn’t want to do this marriage thing anymore, you’ll be bled dry in every sense of the word.

  329. thedeti says:

    OK, 7817.

    What exactly is it that you want men to do?

  330. thedeti says:

    7817: The only way anything continues is if men take the risks you and I are describing. I don’t think they should. Do you think they should? If they are already in that situation, sure – you and I , we have no choice.

    What do you want men to do?

  331. Novaseeker says:

    the marriage contract would be illegal under consumer and I would guess any other law.

    Yes, but the contract view of marriage/family law is long dead.

    Marriage today is legally a status conferred by the state. The state therefore decides what one needs to do to qualify for the status, and one what needs to do in order to dissolve/rescind the status. The state also decides what happens when the status is rescinded in terms of property, children, money, income and the like. It isn’t a contract. It’s a state-conferred status with rules from the state about how it can be dissolved, and what happens upon its dissolution. The old model of mutual obligations like a contract is long dead — since decades and decades really. It’s a legal status now, nothing more.

  332. thedeti says:

    NOva:

    I was listening to some podcast a couple of days ago that suggested bringing back the contract theory of marriage; that the idea of the marital contract should be restored. That there should be rights, duties and obligations both parties have during the conduct of the marriage, and that the marriage can be ended for one or both parties’ breach.

    It’s just not going to happen anytime soon, if ever. Men and women both want marriages that can be easily dissolved, and marriage law now has been rewritten so that men bear almost all the financial, sexual, emotional, and mental cost. A return to a contract model would make it much harder for people to get out of their marriages and would require that women bear equal costs in the event of “breach” or dissolution. It would require that women take on duties and obligations equal to those they expect of men. And those things just aren’t going to happen.

  333. 7817 says:

    You – and I- are one job loss, injury, financial problem, accident, EatPrayLove, or other mishap away from total marriage failure. And if that happens, we’ll be made to pay.

    I don’t disagree, although bad things happen sometimes and the women don’t ALWAYS go feral. It’s just as bad to say they never do anything right as it is to say they never do anything wrong. AWALT is true, but the planet still has humans somehow.

    You know I’m not saying it’s worthless.

    I’m glad to hear you say it.

    I’m laying out what the risks are, that they can’t be mitigated or managed to your advantage

    This is why I’m asking if you still think there is a point to the manosphere beyond “raising awareness.” Is the self improvement side dead, or worthless, or what?

    and that if and when your wife decides she just doesn’t want to do this marriage thing anymore, you’ll be bled dry in every sense of the word.

    Understood. I was already married when I found this place, and it has tangibly helped me.

    What exactly is it that you want men to do?

    I want men to stop living in fear. If there are men out there who are not attractive enough for marriage, or who are scared of marriage, I don’t want them to foolishly dive into marriage. But my hope is that they would not live in fear either, of dying alone, or whatever else. My hope is that they would live the best lives possible, not meant nihilistically, but pursuing interests and goals, maybe helping out their relatives kids when possible.

    The only thing I ask of them is when they are discouraged, ask for help, and go monk mode, until they recover, instead of demoralizing everyone with despair. If they eventually want to marry (legally or not) and can, fine, but know the risks. I don’t want men who are controlled by fear to marry while they are in that condition. That’s just lighting the fuse for disaster.

    For men who are willing to marry, legally or not, I want pretty much the same thing. Know the risks, and mitigate them as you are able, be your own mental point of origin, and make your life about more than your family, so if it falls apart and you are Zero’d out, you’ll be less tempted by suicide. And, don’t live in fear. If for no other reason than your wife can smell it on you.

  334. Minesweeper says:

    @Nova, “Marriage today is legally a status conferred by the state. ”

    Not really, it tends to be defined as a new entity like a company with 2 partners and the state as a silent partner who gets the authority upon either partner demanding the companies dissolution.

    I’m sure Opus could define it abit better.

    If its just status your after, it would be cheaper to own a ferrari.

  335. Minesweeper says:

    @Nova, although I think I know what you mean now, its a contract without specified conditions.

    There is no demand for nor punishment if you fail to love, honor or obey, nor for committing abuse, adultery, financial ruin.

    If there was, I would guess most women would be thrown out if it with just the shirt on their back. As they tend to commit most of those failings.

    I guess that’s why they got removed.

  336. Anonymous Reader says:

    Interesting to see some new names popping up not that long after the dropins from Vox Day’s site showed up. Perhaps we have a argument spillover from somewhere else?

    Nathan Bruno
    The difference between here and Rollo’s place is that there’s an ostensibly Christian perspective here, yes?

    Shrill MGTOW trolls have dropped into Rollo’s place from time to time, he generally does not tolerate them.

    There’s a new collection of sites on the edge of the PUA world that take a “lookism” approach; they claim a man has zero chance to attract a woman if he is not her “type” in terms of looks. It is bogus, and can be demonstrated to be bogus, but the “lookism” sites are crab buckets of very insecure 20-something men. Perhaps the virulent MGTOW’s are somehow associated with that group.

    Frankly, this is beginning to remind me of all the ignorance 20 years ago about Y2K. The groupthink and Doomerism was very thick in some online fora back then, and any attempt to answer the panic with logic just fired up more panic.

    The groupthink is really thick all of a sudden. Too bad Charles MacKay is still dead.

    @Deti
    What’s up with you? You’re writing as if the last 5 years didn’t happen, as if you slid back into that negative mental state of a few years ago.

  337. Badman says:

    @thedeti

    Your insights above are why I always look forward to reading your well-written comments. I know that many of the men here feel the same.

    Your logic regarding a wife’s rationale for divorce is indisputable. However, it is written by a logical, male mind—and as we know, women think very differently from men. While women must perform some limited or biased cost/benefit analysis when considering divorce, it can’t be as cold as you’ve outlined. Otherwise, with laws and courts the way they are today, we’d see a divorce rate of 95%+.

    Part of this could be explained by women being uninformed just how extensively the laws are biased in their favor. I recall a post from Dalrock several months back about a women who was afraid to divorce her husband because she thought he’d refuse to pay child support. Never mind that the State will enforce this obligation all the way to the grave if need be.

    Part of it could also be that women are far more loss averse than men—so even a minor disruption in her lifestyle (or income) while a divorce is in process could give her pause even if the logical cost/benefit is in her favor.

    In any case, I’m hopeful that this may be one instance where the female mind’s rationality (or lack thereof) works slightly in a man’s favor.

  338. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    Great conversation. Ignore the sharks and sing “Don’t Worry, Be Happy!”

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Straw_man

  339. Anonymous Reader says:

    New commenter John James R
    Wow. “Man Up” being trojan-horsed into advice on how to deal with wild animals. LOL

    Perhaps you could work on your reading comprehension in your spare time?

  340. Anonymous Reader says:

    thedeti

    Sorry— if you’re Christian, your chances of divorce are 1 in 4.

    Citation requested. You used to know the actual odds. Take a deep breath or three, and come back to reality.

  341. Minesweeper says:

    @Badman says:”Part of this could be explained by women being uninformed just how extensively the laws are biased in their favor.”

    This is why the phenomenon of the divorce storm happens. As each woman finds out just how much power she has and the financial package that awaits her if she goes through with it. Word gets around.

    How would they know otherwise, as its a constant moving target (in their favour) and the terms are never settled.

    Any divorce settlement in a court can change the law for all future divorces AND even some that have happened decades ago!!!

  342. thedeti says:

    AR:

    https://www.focusonthefamily.com/about/focus-findings/marriage/divorce-rate-in-the-church-as-high-as-the-world

    Cites a UConn professor’s analysis of 38% divorce rate among Christians who attend church regularly. Among Christians who don’t attend church regularly, it’s 60%.

    The George Barna study from December 2003:

    https://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

    Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate)
    % who have been divorced

    Non-denominational ** 34%
    Baptists 29%
    Mainline Protestants 25%
    Mormons 24%
    Catholics 21%
    Lutherans 21%

    Among Charismatics, fundies and Baptists, it’s 1 in 3.

    Among mainline Prots, 1 in 4.

    Among Catholics and Lutherans, 1 in 5.

  343. Anonymous Reader says:

    Minesweepr
    Any divorce settlement in a court can change the law for all future divorces AND even some that have happened decades ago!!!

    Please support this claim. Cite the relevant family code, point to actual decisions.

  344. thedeti says:

    Keep in mind: This is Focus on the Family, an ultraconservative Christian media outlet, touting a 38% divorce rate as a good thing. “Hey, at least we’re not as bad as the heathens!”

    Jesus had a few things to say about people like that.

  345. 7817 says:

    Thanks for the stats Deti.

    Do you withdraw your claim that I am demanding that men marry?

  346. Minesweeper says:

    @AR, “Tycoon’s ex-wife awarded £300k settlement 20 years after divorce”

    “could signal open season for people who had brief relationships a quarter of a century ago”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-36499818

    “Ex-wife gets £453 million divorce payment”
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39884315

    Every divorce in the UK High Courts changes things for every divorce in the UK going forward. Your right, I left out the word “High”.

    Although saying that, every divorce does change much going forward even for others outside that immediate family, as it leads to other divorces that possibly wouldn’t have occurred.

  347. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti
    Keep in mind: This is Focus on the Family, an ultraconservative Christian media outlet, touting a 38% divorce rate as a good thing. “Hey, at least we’re not as bad as the heathens!”

    Yes, and the Barna survey is from 2003. We both remember this from years ago when Dalrock cited them. It’s part of the risk that TradCons routinely deny, and I’ve cited both more than once in order to demonstrate actual risk that must be taken into account. Then there’s all the years of discussion on risk control / mitigation, right? Game for a start, vetting her friends & social circle, and so forth.

    What I don’t understand is why all of a sudden this has terrified you. The last few months your comments in various places have reverted back to 2013 or so in terms of emotionalism. Something going on in real life, offline? What’s up?

  348. Anonymous Reader says:

    Minesweeper
    Every divorce in the UK High Courts changes things for every divorce in the UK going forward. Your right, I left out the word “High”.

    Yes, you did leave out an important word. You also neglected to note that UK courts have no jurisdiction over the US.

    Although saying that, every divorce does change much going forward even for others outside that immediate family, as it leads to other divorces that possibly wouldn’t have occurred.

    Dalrock discussed that years ago as well. Use the search tool and you can find it. Part of risk mitigation involves paying attention to a women’s social circle, especially her social media participation. No reason to panic or despair, just another factor to keep in mind.

  349. Minesweeper says:

    @AR, you think the US is any different ? If so I’ve got a bridge to sell you. The way the legal system works is every judgement passed down, affects those coming up.

    “No reason to panic or despair, just another factor to keep in mind.”

    Until you’ve gone through a divorce storm, maybe you should shut the hell up acting like an authority on the subject,

  350. 7817 says:

    @Minesweeper

    Until you’ve gone through a divorce storm, maybe you should shut the hell up acting like an authority on the subject,

    Go hide under a rock loser, men are talking. Looks like you need to change your shorts.

  351. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, pluese.

    So the pair of you with exactly ZERO experience in the subject, continually pounding what experts you are in everything, really has to be seen to be believed.

  352. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, I think has just declared himself the AMOG.

  353. 7817 says:

    Amog? By no means. There are any number of men reading here who are my equals, and many are my betters. Hard to hear and learn from them over you whining and bitching and pissing your pants though. Pipe down and learn how to be better, like I’m trying to do.

  354. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, so your a tradcuck feminist with daughters and are terrified that they aren’t going to marry when older as you won’t find enough suckers left for them to choose from ?

    Is that what your saying ?

    We’ve had your type before round here. Occasionally, they asked for duel’s.

    That’s why men like dalrock and deti are so valuable, they are still in the system, under “contract \ threatpoint”, are fully aware of its flaws and the potential danger it poses to them.

    I’m not sure of D’s position, but even Rollo who is in a great marriage, is one and done with it.

    “And yes, I would still never remarry were I to find myself single tomorrow – I simply cannot endorse marriage, as it exists today, as a good idea for any young man. Remember, this is coming from a guy with a damn good marriage. As MGTOWs are fond of saying, endorsing marriage today is leading the lambs to slaughter. I agree. It is simply, statistically, the worst decision a man can make in his life at present, yet so many men want to believe they won’t be one of those statistics.”

    https://therationalmale.com/2019/04/20/raiders-of-the-lost-covenant/

    I’m not MGTOW, but I’m not blind to what’s going on either. I couldn’t sleep at night if I got married again, knowing what danger awaits.

    Your not special, what I’ve gone through could be in your future.

  355. 7817 says:

    No thanks. Despair is your god, not mine. Go worship at that altar, if that’s what you’ve chosen.

    This is my goal, I’m not there yet:

    Habakkuk 3:17-18 ESV
    Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, [18] yet I will rejoice in the LORD; I will take joy in the God of my salvation.

  356. goFigure says:

    @7817
    Was this written to yourself? Hard to hear and learn from them over you whining and bitching and pissing your pants though. Pipe down and learn how to be better, like I’m trying to do.

    If not, you should read your own comment as being directed at you.

  357. Anonymous Reader says:

    Minesweeper
    @AR, you think the US is any different

    Please point to the Federal court that has jurisdiction over divorce cases in the same manner as the UK court you cited.

    Until you’ve gone through a divorce storm, maybe you should shut the hell up acting like an authority on the subject,

    Are you an authority on what I’ve seen in my life?
    LOL at your arrogance.

    Why are these MGTOW’s so emotional? It’s like interacting with pre-teen girls.

  358. Ann says:

    @ZMAN
    It’s possible she’s a bit of a loon, but she just sounds really shy to me. If so, it took her a lot of courage to even walk by your desk as she did, which means she’s very interested.

    There is, rightfully, a lot of sympathy here for the “Average Church Male,” who some girls dismiss out of hand. I’ve seen a couple really great guys rejected by a clique of girls, probably because competing for him would break up their squad and none of them wanted to fail. On the other hand, to those here, it seems the “average church girl” is so invisible you think she doesn’t even exist.

    Let’s take the kind who submitted to her parents growing up, wearing long hair, skirts, no makeup. That doesn’t make her popular with the cool crowd, so she was harshly snubbed by boys growing up for trespasses such as sitting next to someone cool, or standing behind a boy in line who didn’t want to be associated with a geek. There is a firm line between popular girls and the uncool types in church too, and it’s very clear guys only have eyes for the outgoing ones with makeup and skimpy clothes. Even having a child out of wedlock isn’t a barrier as long as she’s vivacious and dressed in tight clothes. If you think that girl is now going to be able to flirt, or give out normal “indicators of interest,” you’ve got another think coming. Years of cruel comments, made loudly enough to humiliate her in front of everyone around, make even things like greeting a guy and asking how he’s doing extremely difficult to do. But again, she’s totally invisible to some of you, or you’re too good to bother with any awkwardness, so she obviously doesn’t exist at all.

  359. BillyS says:

    Oscar,

    You are the rare exception. Pat yourself on the back. How many others who wait “until they are ready” have more than a child or perhaps 2? Almost none. I have heard that same argument used many times to say why a family is not having more than 2 children, far more than your solitary example otherwise.

    Though you still didn’t address the “building a family together” part. You having to be “ready” (yes completely is a relative, not a fixed amount) continues the trend of holding the man accountable for everything in a marriage. I bet you don’t even see that aspect.

    You also had more charisma than you realized or want to acknowledge. You asked a woman on a date and got one, which shows something she found appealing, whether that appeal lasted or not.

    AR,

    stop associating with anything MGTOW

    That is saying that it is evil/really bad/pick your own nasty term here. I would not say he should wallow in despair either, but ignoring reality just because he is young is quite stupid, even if he will hear some of the things you don’t want him to hear.

    I wouldn’t recommend only listening to Sandman videos, for example, but completely avoiding them, especially if he is learning things, is not smart either. Wisdom involves knowing what is really going on.

    But can you agree that it is a bad thing for a man of 20 years old to despair of any hope at all? Isn’t there a little advice in the Bible regarding that?

    I never said he should wallow in despair as I just noted, but neither should he “avoid all things near to MGTOW” just because he might be infected. He needs to learn truth and that often means listening to many different things, even some that overemphasize parts.

    I don’t know what direct advice I would give someone personally, though I hope to work through some of that writing in the near future. I do know I could not just paint a hopeful picture however, since reality requires rational thought, not blind idealism.

    7817,

    I noted this as I am effectively in a MGTOW lifestyle now. I have no control over it. I am a loner at heart in many ways, so I caused some of my own problems, but I still regularly ask God why I must remain completely alone. I will serve Him no matter what, but it does suck. I do speak up on this however because while I am not following the ways of many MGTOWs, I am in the same bucket far more than I would like. This is why blanket condemnations are idiotic.

  360. BillyS says:

    AR,

    I was living “on call” through Y2K and while things didn’t go as bad as some warned, things were not completely pretty behind the scenes. No company would admit something happened because of Y2K either (in my view) since they spent so much money to prevent just that.

    I am amazed we haven’t had some major catastrophe in my lifetime, since things are a lot more fragile than it seems. Perhaps that is just the pessimist in me, but I also credit God’s undeserved mercy.

  361. BillyS says:

    AR,

    I know you don’t like me much, but “Don’t Worry, Be Happy” is the effective motto of those who say to completely ignore all MGTOW concerns because they are just weenies. It is far from a straw man, though feel free to claim that.

    I still find parts of MGTOW to be repulsive, since I believe we should go God’s way, not our own way, but I have been swayed against the idea of “marry to save western civilization.” It is not worth saving if my action in this area is the key factor. (It certainly isn’t due to my age, but I did try my part and got horribly burned. Ignoring that is what most who completely oppose MGTOW are pushing, whether they realize it or not. That is just the logical end of my brain thinking through consequences however.

  362. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Though you still didn’t address the “building a family together” part.

    And you didn’t address where I said anything about “perfectly”. Address that, and I’ll address your statement.

    You also had more charisma than you realized or want to acknowledge. You asked a woman on a date and got one, which shows something she found appealing, whether that appeal lasted or not.

    It wasn’t charisma, because I have none. We each have strengths and weaknesses. Charisma is one of my weakest areas (as it is for most engineer types), but I have strengths in other areas. Each of us has to play to our strengths to get anywhere in life, and not just with women. That’s what I advise young men to do whenever they ask.

  363. AnonS says:

    @Ann

    On the other hand, to those here, it seems the “average church girl” is so invisible you think she doesn’t even exist.

    And any of them can create a decent online profile and get hundreds of messages from across the country (if they aren’t ugly). In fact they get so much attention that the pressure to pick one seems to fade and waiting until 29 doesn’t seem so bad. If you think any are lacking attention just post the link to their profile.

    27 year old girl in the Midwest, set her profile as open to nationwide matches, paying a monthly subscription to a dating site. Actual conversation.

    Her: I’m a big proponent for honesty. Obviously, my principal desire is to follow God’s will for my life, but for now, my 5-10 year plan is to stay in this area close to my family, save up for a house/land, further my career, and start getting involved in foster care. First by volunteering and offering respite care to foster parents then eventually going through the training myself. I realize you live fairly far away, so if your own plans don’t really line up with that then I wouldn’t want to waste your time further.

    Me: Sounds like your plan doesn’t leave a lot of room for marriage and family.

    Her: It’s true that I live a very full life. I don’t believe in putting it on hold til I find someone with similar goals/beliefs that wants to settle down. As far as my career, if I ever married and started a family I’d most likely switch to part time or contract work. Given the mental nature of my work (and the fact I’m not a native speaker) if I don’t use it, I lose it. I’d want to keep my hand in. If you’re looking for someone with more conservative views (aka someone wanting to be a full time SAHM) I understand.

  364. Novaseeker says:

    But again, she’s totally invisible to some of you, or you’re too good to bother with any awkwardness, so she obviously doesn’t exist at all.

    Guys, she isn’t wrong about this. She’s talking about the less attractive women. It’s pretty true that most guys aren’t interested in one of the less attractive women who are in the churches, I think.

  365. Minesweeper says:

    @Ann
    “If you think that girl is now going to be able to flirt, or give out normal “indicators of interest,” you’ve got another think coming. Years of cruel comments, made loudly enough to humiliate her in front of everyone around ” – from other females I take it ?

    i’ve never seen this before, is this you Ann ? If it isn’t then the girl has some pretty serious ongoing damage and would entrap any man into a nightmare of problems with her broken persona. Which at the end of the day will leave him ruined by the legal system no matter how much he helped her.

    @Zman, stay away from the crazies, the broken, nothing good can come of it. Advice I want to give myself 25 years ago !

    .i.e. if you detect this – run like F88k.

  366. thedeti says:

    Very true AnonS.

    I’m not privy to the dating profiles of single Christian women. But from interacting with many of them in person in the midwest, I can tell you the attitudes are the same as in the profile exchange you mentioned. Full life. Not putting it on hold. Not settling. Not moving for a man. No man is going to interrupt all my fabulous plans for education, job, career, travel, and things I want to do. Maybe I’ll marry someday.

    That woman is on that site to find hookups, plain and simple.

    So I don’t want to hear any more BS about the travails and troubles of “Average Church Girl”, who can set up a profile on ChristianMingle or Match or OKC or eHarmony and get 20 responses in the first day, while the average guy gets maybe one or two women who take a passing glance at his profile.

    Women, if you want a man, you have to actually do things to get one once you attract his attention. You are going to have to actually do things. You have to compromise and negotiate and interact. And if you don’t want to do those things, then have fun with your cats.

  367. thedeti says:

    Nova

    She’s talking about the average girl. Long hair, skirts, no makeup, kinda shy and reserved, devout. That’s not Martha Dumptruck. That’s not Big Bertha. That’s Jane. And Jane gets plenty of interest from her SMV counterparts, like Ernie Engineer and Tom Teacher and Gary Gamma, all of whom she’s attended church with since they were high school sophomores and whom she hasn’t noticed since then. No, they aren’t the pick of the litter. Yes, they’re firmly in the bottom 80% of men. No, they’re not alphas, not by any stretch of the imagination. But they’re men who are interested in her. So it is not true that no one is interested in Jane. Not to mention the fact that Jane can put up a profile on any major dating site and then sift through the interested men all day long.

    Jane doesn’t want Ernie, Tom or Gary. She wants the good looking men, just like Becky and Stacy do. Despite the fact that Ernie, Tom and Gary are her natural matches, they’re not who she wants, for reasons we’ve all discussed many times.

    What men or boys are making cruel comments to Jane in church? Where I come from, any boy steps out of line even a little, he’s disciplined, told off, socially crushed, and virtually excommunicated. Any mistreatment of any woman, even Jane, even Martha Dumptruck, is punished harshly and severely by other men. And men are routinely told, commanded, and exhorted to “man up” and start asking these women (including Jane) out on dates. They’re told to man up and start marrying these women.

    So, no, I don’t think Jane has it anywhere close to as bad as Average Church Guy. Because, let’s face it: We know Becky and Stacy don’t want Average Church Guy. But Jane, Martha and Bertha don’t want Average Church Guy either. And that is what is really going on here.

  368. Minesweeper says:

    @Ann says: “@ZMAN
    It’s possible she’s a bit of a loon, … If so, it took her a lot of courage to even walk by your desk as she did,”

    courage, not storming over the top into machine gun fire, but walking past your desk while ignoring you.

    take courage women, under – some mans possible gaze…… and storm those offices….

  369. Novaseeker says:

    deti —

    I think “average church girl” means something different to men than it does to women.

  370. thedeti says:

    Nova:

    Then to Ann and women, “average church girl” is Martha Dumptruck and Big Bertha. And they are not average. Most women in church are Janes, a few Beckys, and one or two Stacys. There’s usually only a couple of Marthas or Berthas. But in the big middle, there’s mostly Janes.

    I’ll concede that Martha and Bertha don’t get interest from men. If Ann is talking about the very, very few Marthas and Berthas at church, then, yes, men aren’t interested in them. Duh.

    Martha and Bertha aren’t invisible – not by any stretch. Everyone knows Martha and Bertha are there. Everyone touts Martha and Bertha as “beautiful beautiful beautiful”. Men are told “if you men aren’t sexually attracted to the fat girl and the ugly girl, then you need to check your heart and maybe you aren’t even a real Christian” and “real Christian men ignore what’s on the outside and look upon the heart”.

  371. BillyS says:

    Oscar,

    Then how prepared is sufficient? Why focus on that if you don’t mean you were aiming at some ideal level? No one reaches perfection in anything, so technically you weren’t waiting for that, but pointing out that it was a/the driving factor implies a level of perfection at least as an aim and that you would not have been perfect building things at 20 instead.

    I have heard that argument so many times I am seeing a trend and I realized as I was writing my reply for it that it is really just another reason to blame the man for not being ready enough. Other factors do also push things off, but indicating all monetary ducks must be in a row before children can/should come is a poor idea.

    I doubt you are going to really see what I am saying here though, so you can “win” the argument if that is your goal.

  372. BillyS says:

    Ann,

    it’s very clear guys only have eyes for the outgoing ones with makeup and skimpy clothes

    That is bogus Ann. I married a woman who was thin, but not the most attractive one. I didn’t care since she seemed to meet the basic attraction qualities even though a few things (some facial hair) were repelling when someone else pointed them out. Looks are not nearly as vital for men past a basic level as you think.

    Some Christian men may have a pull toward the sluts, but it is also repelling, especially when we realize that getting one comes with a whole bunch more baggage than is clear on the outside.

  373. Minesweeper says:

    @thedeti says:”Martha and Bertha aren’t invisible – not by any stretch. Everyone knows Martha and Bertha are there.”

    yep, and considering they are the size of jupiter there is something very wrong with them, either physically or mentally, that they would put himself into that state.

  374. Minesweeper says:

    @BillyS, extra hair characteristics is a sign of cysts on ovaries which leads to infertility.

    Which is why it repels most men. And for good reason.

  375. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Then how prepared is sufficient?

    That’s the question you should have asked, instead of assuming you knew what I was thinking.

    Why focus on that if you don’t mean you were aiming at some ideal level?

    Because provision is a big part of a man’s primary role in marriage. You don’t have to “aim at some ideal level” to be prepared for something. Can you tell me what’s wrong with advising young men to prepare to provide for a family?

    No one reaches perfection in anything

    Then, why did you bring up perfection? I certainly didn’t.

    So, here’s what I meant. If a young man has steady work, and can afford at least an apartment with a couple rooms in a safe part of town, and he has health insurance through his employer, he’s ready to provide for a family.

    Obviously, if he can do more than that, all the better.

    For example, the mean hourly wage for an apprentice electrician is $14.83/hour.

    https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Apprentice_Electrician/Hourly_Rate

    Let’s suppose a young man starts his apprenticeship at 18, right out of high school. It takes about 4 years to become a journeyman electrician. That puts him at 22, and the whole time he’s been making good money for a young, single man with no debt, especially if he still lives at home. At 22 he becomes a journeyman. After two years as a journeyman, he’s making $21.10/hour.

    https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Electrician_Journeyman/Hourly_Rate

    That’s almost $44K/year, he has no debt, and he’s been working long enough to have some savings. And he’s only 24 years old.

    At this point, he’s plenty ready to support a family, especially if he marries a young woman who was equally wise, has no debt, and maybe worked a couple years, and therefore has some savings.

    Where I live, they could easily afford a little two bedroom starter house.

    You’re the only one who said anything about “perfectly”. Get “perfectly” out of your head. It doesn’t exist in this life.

  376. thedeti says:

    Mine:

    Some Marthas and Berthas aren’t fat. Some are just plain looking. Some are not attractive. Sorry to anyone who thinks differently, but Emily Stimpson Chapman is a Martha. Look at Mrs. Chapman’s photos on her website, emilystimpson.com. Mrs. Chapman is what people used to politely call “homely”. She’s not facially attractive. She doesn’t wear much makeup to accentuate her eyes. Her smile… well, leaves a bit to be desired.

    And she got someone to marry her, despite waiting until she was in her late 30s to meet someone and get serious about marriage. And from the photos of Mr. Chapman, she did very, very well for herself. I dare say Mr. Chapman could have done quite a bit better than Emily. But they chose each other.

    If Emily Stimpson can get a man like Mr. Chapman to marry her AT 40 YEARS OLD, then, for heaven’s sake, why on God’s green earth can’t our church Marthas and Berthas get someone?

  377. thedeti says:

    Note that her website is emilystimpson.com.

    Not emilychapman.com or emilystimpsonchapman.com

    She’s kept her maiden name. Which to me speaks volumes.

  378. Anonymous Reader says:

    I suggested regarding a 20-year old man known to Red Pill Christian:

    stop associating with anything MGTOW

    BillyS
    That is saying that it is evil/really bad/pick your own nasty term here.

    No, it is not. That’s an interpretation you made up inside your head and projected onto me. It is false. A man of 20 should be building himself up, if he’s a churchgoing man he should be following the Bible, not wallowing in MGTOW channels on YouTube.

    As for your “evil” false claim:
    I know alcoholics who are very careful not to associate with people that are drinking alcohol. Does that make alcohol evil? No. It is not good for them. This is not complicated. Now, will you retract your false claim or not?

  379. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    I was living “on call” through Y2K and while things didn’t go as bad as some warned, things were not completely pretty behind the scenes.

    You are completely missing the point. There were many, many pages and newsgroups full of panic about Y2K. Aircraft were going to fall out of the sky, all electrical generation would stop, train locomotives would stop, all bank computers would fail, all retail terminals would fail, fire trucks would fail, etc. and so forth and so on. I had people tell me that “the chips will fail” when they had zero idea about what IC’s actually are[1].

    The less people knew, the more they passed around ridiculous rumors. That’s what I’m seeing in the hysterical MGTOW side of things. That’s my point: the hysteria I’m seeing from certain MGTOW’s is very much like the unreasoning fear I saw in 1999 from ignorant people who had no idea where natural gas and electricity come from, or what the actual issue involved. It’s a funhouse mirror of the Traditional Conservative denial that there’s any problem.

    That’s the point. Panic and fear are dangerous emotions to let loose.

    [1]As an aside, friends of mine made very good money in Y2K remediation, but they were working inside of large institutions on FORTRAN and COBOL programs, most of them batch runs. Friends in the utility business were at their jobs, with a whole lot of diesel stored onsite to fuel backup generation if needed. I have some knowledge of the remediation and the preparations for the Y2K disaster that never happened. But those people weren’t the ones telling me “Your car won’t start on January 1st because the chips will fail”. Nobody I knew in the embedded systems control world was worried, for example.

  380. Minesweeper says:

    @deit, “Everyone touts Martha and Bertha as “beautiful beautiful beautiful”. Men are told “if you men aren’t sexually attracted to the fat girl and the ugly girl, ”

    then your a normal friggin man.

    outside at the friggin moment, ive got 3 women screaming their lungs out at each other. but because no man is involved in this “issue” no law to arrest is required.

    the great thing is, with women, making men complaining illegal and women complaining LEGAL, the only conflict comes when crazy women complain at each other.

    I wish I could say encourage this, but it terrifies everyone, esp the children.

    Just goes to show, women being in charge – leads to civilization ruin.

  381. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ann
    Let’s take the kind who submitted to her parents growing up, wearing long hair, skirts, no makeup.

    How much does she weigh?
    Seriously, I have friends in my social circle where the whole family is borderline obese. That means the teenage girls are just plain fat. They are pleasant enough, and pretty competent by modern standards when it comes to domestic housekeeping, but they are many pounds overweight at the age of 16 and 19. Eventually one or both may get married, but it will probably be at least 10 years.

    I second Novaseekers observation. A lot of women now do not know what actually attracts men, and have been brainwashed to the point that they often do not want to learn.

  382. Anonymous Reader says:

    BillyS
    It “Don’t Worry, Be Happy” is the effective motto of those who say to completely ignore all MGTOW concerns because they are just weenies. It is far from a straw man, though feel free to claim that.

    Can you point to any text by 7817 where he wrote that all MGTOW concerns should be ignored?
    You made up something, pretended he wrote it, and then attacked it. That is the strawman fallacy.

    I still find parts of MGTOW to be repulsive, since I believe we should go God’s way, not our own way, but I have been swayed against the idea of “marry to save western civilization.”

    Ok. You should take that up with Vox Day, since it appears to be one of his ideas.
    Applying that broad brush to other people isn’t a good idea.

  383. Red Pill Christianity says:

    I posted replies to further the discussion, but none of my last 5 posts have been displayed. I wonder if I upsetted the “gods” of censorship. -_-

  384. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Oh oh! A small post has appeared! 🙂 Hope remains! Lol

    Gonna try re-posting again later from home.

  385. Paul Barnes says:

    The theory of 7817 and AR being the fathers of daughters with expectations of them marrying tradcuck simps is stating to make a lot of sense. I have a mental image of them screaming, red-faced, as men walk away from their nuclear waste daughters, screaming “MAN UP LOSER, STOP WORSHIPING DESPAIR!”

  386. Minesweeper says:

    @Paul Barnes says:” The theory of 7817 and AR being the fathers of daughters with expectations of them marrying tradcuck simps is stating to make a lot of sense. I have a mental image of them screaming, red-faced, as men walk away from their nuclear waste daughters, screaming “MAN UP LOSER, STOP WORSHIPING DESPAIR!””

    Well, 7817, hasn’t called anyone a loser, loser.txt, pissing-in-your-pants-loser, shit-for-brains-loser, loser-of-the-millenium, worlds-biggest-loser-bar-none or any number of various combos for about 15 mins.

    So obviously, he has decided to take a break for abit to replenish his reserves.

    Hopefully, he will be back soon, at his full strength. We wish him well in his recovery.

  387. 7817 says:

    Paul, minesweeper

    You guys don’t even know how stupid you are.

    The idea that anyone would beg either one of you to marry one of his daughters is laughable on its face. I wouldn’t recommend even my enemies give their daughters to someone like you.

    I’m beginning to change my mind. I think mgtow is perfect for you guys. I’m glad you are out of the dating pool and hopefully you haven’t left any descendants to continue the legacy of despair.

    Besides, you have a god to worship. Despair is a full time job.

  388. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, Glad to see your back to your usual activities.

    You hadn’t insulted someone in 15 mins, I honestly thought you were dead.

    “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

    https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-22.htm

    Save yourself 7817, Jesus words arn’t to be taken lightly.

    Heaven and hell are real.

  389. Hank Flanders says:

    Ann, if you want some encouragement as a woman, you need to go watch FACEandLMS on youtube. (His videos are more likely to produce the opposite effect for most guys, so I can’t really recommend them to guys who aren’t very looking). Here’s a really good (bad) one:

  390. 7817 says:

    Here’s an example of your restraint:

    maybe you should shut the hell up acting like an authority – Minesweeper

    I on the other hand am happy to observe your genetic line end because of your mgtow despair. It is quite amusing that someone in such self denial as to think that they are in demand as a marriage partner, yet abstain from marriage, is being genetically erased from the earth.

    Mgtows who worship despair literally have no future, by their own choice. This could be a tragedy for a normal man, but since it is someone who willfully chooses this, it is a cosmic joke being played out before our very eyes. What could be more fitting, or more amusing?

  391. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, and did I call anyone a fool/ idiot/ loser at all ?

    My genetic line is doing fantastically great, I will let them know you were overly concerned about them.

    Just for reference, after my expensive and ruinous divorce, I still could have re-married about half a dozen times easily.

    A divorced christian good looking quite high status wealthy man in his late 30’s/early 40’s, turns out is in pretty high demand.

    Who would have thought.

  392. 7817 says:

    My genetic line is doing fantastically great

    So instead of being satisfied with this, you try to discourage other men from at least having genetic success, and encourage them to despair. Descendants for me, but not for thee as it were. You are contemptible trash.

    Just for reference, after my expensive and ruinous divorce, I still could have re-married about half a dozen times easily.

    Secret king wins again.

  393. Minesweeper says:

    @7817, you really do have problems don’t you ?

    I discourage men from getting ruined in a divorce. But, that’s just a little too subtle for you to see isn’t it.

    When all you have is a hammer doesn’t everything look like a nail 7817 ?

  394. 7817 says:

    If the purpose here becomes celebration of the mgtow, the worship of despair, then we have lost sight of the truth.

    If we hold good things in contempt, just because we are not able to get them, we have lost hold of the truth.

    If it is a good thing that men despair of marriage and no longer seek it, then it is no tragedy that divorce is rampant, and that many women behave badly, to the point of being unmarriageable. Why would it be? If the bond of marriage (legal or extra legal) is only a bad thing and only results in bad outcomes, there is no pain in its loss. There was no good reason for it to continue. And that is what despair worshipping mgtows would have you believe.

    But if marriage (legal or extra legal) is a good thing, then we rightfully mourn its abandonment and loss, and we can try to comfort the men whose lives have been shattered, whose kids have been taken away.

    The despair worshipping mgtows serve a lie, they have turned away from the truth. Until they repent, they must be spurned.

    Genesis 17:4-8 ESV
    “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. [5] No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. [6] I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. [7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. [8] And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

    God’s blessing to Abraham is descendants. I don’t say this to prick mgtows who are single through no fault of their own. I don’t say this to shame men who truly aren’t called to be fathers. This is to remind us of what a blessing from God descendants are. Descendants are a GOOD THING. Without accepting that, there is no way to mourn with a man who cannot continue his line.

    I wish the worshipers of despair would repent, or else embrace it so much that they no longer trouble God’s people.

  395. Paul Barnes says:

    7817, you misunderstand. Your pockets aren’t deep enough to pay me the kind of dowry to convince me to take one of your pre-damaged daughters off your hands. I apologize for pushing your buttons so hard here, God bless and protect you and yours.

  396. Anonymous Reader says:

    Paul Barnes
    The theory of 7817 and AR being the fathers of daughters with expectations of them marrying tradcuck simps is stating to make a lot of sense.

    Lol. Your trolling is weak.

  397. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ann
    But again, she’s totally invisible to some of you,

    Girls give off indications of interest without being aware of it. Most young men can’t read those indicators. So when Plain Jane goes over during the potluck dinner and quietly sits one chair away from Averge Albert, saying nothing, looking around him…she may be displaying very low level IOI’s but he’s not going to notice. Average people are often invisible to each other, in a world where social media is “more real” than reality for too many.

    Have you ever read any of the fiction by Jane Austen? It’s timeless stuff in terms of social dynamics. I suggest that any young woman in her upper teens should read Emma just for a start. Austen’s female characters have a lot of different personalities, but even the wallflowers are not total wallflowers.

    I also suggest that people should pull their head out of their phone. People of both sexes do that way too much, and it makes them look unapproachable.

    Speaking of approaches, you need to bear in mind the social realities of the current year. Don’t forget, Ann, that we live in a world not just of #MeToo, but also #ChurchToo, and the irony is this: the men most likely to pull some Weinstein are the least likely to care about hashtags; but the men most likely to pay close attention to hashtags are also the men least likely to do anything obnoxious.

    Young men are ground down to varying degrees by the K – 12 machine. Girls need to learn a bit of “Girl Game” in order to signal that they aren”t going to be a danger to the young men. Not my choice, it’s the world.

  398. 7817 says:

    Paul, you misunderstand. If I had a daughter to give, I would rather give her to a goat herder than to someone like you.
    Face it: no one wants you. Fathers do not want to give their daughters to men like you. Normal fathers want their daughters to be happy, which would preclude you as an option.

  399. feministhater says:

    Normal fathers want their daughters to be happy, which would preclude you as an option.

    If only this were true. If it is then you must support MGTOW, as by your own standards, only losers become MGTOW, thus MGTOW does you and your daughter a direct favour by removing themselves from being an option.

    MGTOW are doing exactly what you and your daughter want. What you keep saying you want, over and over and over again. You don’t want or need these men, by your own words 7817, your own fucking words, and so they remove themselves and go their own way. Any yet you continue to bitch because they speak their minds.

    You have issue because MGTOW won’t keep quiet. News flash, we don’t have to. We don’t answer to you. You are a nobody, a nothing. Worse than a piece of shit. Your opinion of us means nothing.

    I have not commented in over a month, and yet you are still fucking whining about men you don’t need or don’t want removing themselves from society, as per your own stated wishes. They are doing exactly what you say you want them to do.

    What the hell kind of drugs are you on?

    Go save someone else.

  400. feministhater says:

    I wish the worshipers of despair would repent, or else embrace it so much that they no longer trouble God’s people.

    Completely untrue. This is an open forum with differing views. Many were here far longer than you. Your opinion holds no weight here. MGTOW are not troubling God’s people, we are not harming them or stealing from them or assaulting them.

    MGTOW literally remove themselves from supporting society or caring about it. Spurn them all you want. It means nothing.

    You just want MGTOW to shut up and keep quiet. Your agenda is so open as to be a joke.

    If you spoke truth, if marriage were a good deal, MGTOW would speak and you would let them, as the truth would out. More and more men choose MGTOW and you quiver and moan that fewer choose the abomination known as the modern day marriage sham.

    Instead of going out there and trying to save your precious civilization, you come here on this forum, and bemoan at men who mean nothing to you, who you call losers, who by your own words, nobody fucking wants anyway. Do you not hear yourself? Are you that deaf?

    Men whom nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, wants removing themselves from society should be 100%, no arguments, a boon to you and yours. Yet, here you are, on this open forum that isn’t associated with any specific Church or Church group but instead is a bunch of men who speak openly and plainly about society today and you want them to shut up because it makes you despair?

    If that is the case, it is you who needs to leave. Otherwise, learn to live with the opinion of others. You have no control here. Your opinion means nothing, just as mine does. You are just a man among other men. A nobody.

  401. 7817 says:

    FH:

    Men whom nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, wants removing themselves from society should be 100%, no arguments, a boon to you and yours.

    Completely agreed. Feel free to keep your despair to yourself and not poison any more discussion with it.

    You are right. Nobody wants your despair poisoning the conversation.

  402. feministhater says:

    You are right. Nobody wants your despair poisoning the conversation.

    Your opinion of me means nothing. I don’t despair. You do. You define your despair and place it on to others.

    I don’t believe in modern day marriage, however, I am not despondent because of that. I still live my life and enjoy it. You are the very definition of a tradcon, believing that the only means for a man not to despair is to get married and have children.

    You and I are enemies, I shall treat you as such. You’re no friend of men here.

    Despair 7817, despair, for you fear it. It controls you. You give power to it.

    You are the poison, you fear men realising that there is more to life than pussy, that there is more to life than having a marriage to a post wall female.

    Why complain when MGTOW are doing you a favour? Go and do the hard work, go and start your own community and build it up without despair. Show us. No one takes your opinion seriously until then.

    However, please call us names. Continue to do so, all the time, day and night, continue. Drive more men to MGTOW. Please! I beg of thee to continue. Show those men the might and power of your shaming. Call them all losers. Show them you care.

  403. 7817 says:

    Drive more men to MGTOW. Please! I beg of thee to continue

    Anyone who rejoices when men give up the pursuit of good things is no longer on the side of the good. You have abandoned the good, the beautiful, and the true.

    I don’t want to drive men to mgtow. I want those who seek to increase this to be silenced.

    Is the fact that men have no good options, no women that desire them a good thing? I say no.

    You want other men to join you in your misery.

  404. feministhater says:

    Anyone who rejoices when men give up the pursuit of good things is no longer on the side of the good. You have abandoned the good, the beautiful, and the true.

    Plenty of good, Christian men didn’t pursue marriage. They certainly would not have pursued modern day marriage. It’s a sham, it purports to be something it is not.

    You go die on your hill. Go and be the martyr. Save marriage. Don’t expect others to and don’t expect them not to inform others of the pathetic and absolute atrocious deal that awaits them if they sign that marriage paper.

    I want to spare men the pain and shock of divorce. You want to keep them locked in a cycle of bartering at the table. Bartering for scraps, for the left overs. Post Wall Thots, the baggage of other men.

    No thanks. Keep all those women to yourself, be the alpha you were meant to be and marry them all. You can do it! We know you can!

  405. 7817 says:

    You are the very definition of a tradcon, believing that the only means for a man not to despair is to get married and have children.

    This is a lie. A man does not have to get married and have children to not despair, in the slightest. Single men can absolutely have joy in good things.

    Here’s the tell that men like you have gone astray: you have joy when other men’s lives are ruined to the point that they join you. Once you surely must felt grief over your condition. Now you want other men to join you in it? This is not a good thing. These are not the actions of someone who cares about men.

  406. feministhater says:

    Is the fact that men have no good options, no women that desire them a good thing? I say no.

    It is neither good, nor bad. It simply is. A man can either choose to accept this and do something else with his life or continue to dwell in the constant cycle of misery, trying to impress and improve himself, for overvalued females who, at the end of the day said so many countless times on this blog, don’t really care about him. She doesn’t really love you like you want to be loved and never will. She loves you as a tool, a piece of meat.

    Marriage is despair for men these days. It has been corrupted. You can either start the incredible job of rekindling the past version of marriage, which requires you to go and start your own community and to build it up from scratch, saving good men and women in the process; or you can continue to bemoan to loser men that they are not good enough for modern women who don’t care for them anyway, who think of them as disposable goods and would divorce them should they be so ‘lucky’ as to get married in the first place.

    We all know exactly what you would choose. You are unwilling to do the work yourself. Instead choosing to bemoan the lack of action from men who have chosen to walk away.

    This society offers nothing of value for me, only shame and scorn. Therefore the fact that it is destroying itself doesn’t fill me with despair. It fills me with hope.

    Perhaps God’s Will for this debased society is for it to collapse.. we shall see..

  407. feministhater says:

    Here’s the tell that men like you have gone astray: you have joy when other men’s lives are ruined to the point that they join you.

    I warn them away from having their lives ruined. They choose to join MGTOW on their own terms, due not to ruination as such, although divorce certainly does that, but by men like you, showing them what you truly think about them and how little you value them.

    That men should join MGTOW is not a ruination of their life, it is a birth of something new. It only causes you to despair.

  408. Emperor Constantine says:

    7817 said:

    “The despair worshipping mgtows serve a lie, they have turned away from the truth. Until they repent, they must be spurned.”

    I suffered through two disastrous blue pill marriages, took the risk, paid the cost. Followed all the tradcon, Feminine-Imperative-serving chivalrous BS. Two biological kids, multiple step-kids. Mr. White Knight multiple times.

    So from your perspective I did the right thing.

    I CAN TELL YOU PERSONALLY THAT JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING FEMINIST HATER SAYS IS TRUE.

    There is nothing wrong with MGTOW’s who focus on their own life.

    Nothing in the Bible says you have to get married, legally or otherwise.

    Legal marriage is actually anti-Biblical and any wise Christian wants nothing to do with it.

    At age 50, I read Rollo and took the Red Pill, and learned to DNGAF and also, what women want. I can have as many woman of pretty much any age I want, whenever I want. As a Christian that’s something I cannot act on.

    Now I’m in an LTR (NOT a legal marriage, of course) where I control the frame and I’ve set things up so in an instant I can end it and walk away. And I could do that and barely look back. There is definitely some risk (Duluth still rules after all), but it’s manageable.

    You might read Ecclesiastes. Or Job. In the end, Christians are not meant for this world. Despair is nothing to be ashamed of, unless you lose your Faith, because in the end, Faith is all that matters.

  409. 7817 says:

    You want to keep them locked in a cycle of bartering at the table. Bartering for scraps, for the left overs. Post Wall Thots, the baggage of other men.

    FH you are a liar. I don’t care if all men marry, and am not interested in keeping them locked in. My hope for them is to not give in to despair, but to have hope, whether or not they marry.

    A man is destroyed when his hope dies. Look in the mirror. Do you really want other men to lack hope the way you do? Do you honestly want other men to lose hope the way you lost yours?

  410. 7817 says:

    @Emperor Constantine

    I’ve got no issue with you.

    The mgtows I take issue with are the ones who openly try to demoralize men.

    Men who aren’t pursuing marriage aren’t my enemy. The men who want to demoralize other men are my enemy.

  411. feministhater says:

    FH you are a liar. I don’t care if all men marry, and am not interested in keeping them locked in. My hope for them is to not give in to despair, but to have hope, whether or not they marry.

    You do care if men marry or not. Else you would not be here continuously bemoaning other men giving their opinions on the shit house called marriage. Marriage is quite simply a bad deal for men. You have issue with this little problem.

    You do care. Calling others liars doesn’t change the issue of marriage being a shit deal.

  412. 7817 says:

    @FH

    It is neither good, nor bad [that men have no good options, no women that desire them]. It simply is.

    You are so demoralized that you can’t even admit that this is a bad thing.

    A man can either choose to accept this and do something else with his life or continue to dwell in the constant cycle of misery, trying to impress and improve himself, for overvalued females who, at the end of the day said so many countless times on this blog, don’t really care about him. She doesn’t really love you like you want to be loved and never will. She loves you as a tool, a piece of meat.

    I agree that living your life for the approval of women is a terrible idea.

    Marriage is despair for men these days.

    This is a lie. Do Dalrock and Rollo both say they have good marriages, not perfect, but good? Yes. And I do to. Like Rollo, I know it could end any time, but it is not despair. And many man I see are in the same position.

    you can continue to bemoan to loser men that they are not good enough for modern women who don’t care for them anyway, who think of them as disposable goods and would divorce them should they be so ‘lucky’ as to get married in the first place.

    I don’t care at all if these men don’t pursue these loser women. My hope is their minds wouldn’t be destroyed by it as yours has been. You are an empty shell.

    You are unwilling to do the work yourself. Instead choosing to bemoan the lack of action from men who have chosen to walk away.

    The lack of action doesn’t bother me. The demoralization does.

    This society offers nothing of value for me, only shame and scorn. Therefore the fact that it is destroying itself doesn’t fill me with despair. It fills me with hope.

    This is perverse. I want the evil destroyed as much as anyone, but hope the good can be saved.

  413. feministhater says:

    7817

    You are literally trying to demoralize men. You call them every name in the book. This is a classic case of demoralization.

    You have been found wanting. To deny this little truth is to be a liar. There is plenty of evidence above to prove this assertion to be true. You have literally done that which you have said is bad.

    To denounce demoralization of men and then to go literally do that thing is hypocritical.

    You are a hypocrite.

  414. 7817 says:

    @FH

    You are literally trying to demoralize men. You call them every name in the book. This is a classic case of demoralization.

    Right. I want to demoralize those particular loser mgtows who wish to demoralize normal men. They are empty husks, shells of former men, seeking to reproduce their failure in others.

    It is fitting to use demoralization on you, as that is your chosen weapon to try to hurt men that could still have a future.

    You have chosen to abandon any future you otherwise might have had. Your bitterness has consumed you to the point where your own is insufficient, now you have to share it. Your root of bitterness has gone to seed.

    You need to repent.

  415. feministhater says:

    Ah, so when you do it. It’s okay. Got it.

    Hypocrite.

  416. feministhater says:

    Nothing you say means anything any more. You are a proven hypocrite who thinks they get to determine what is good and bad.

    You have made the case, everyone now gets to see you.

    Hypocrite.

  417. feministhater says:

    It is fitting to use demoralization on you, as that is your chosen weapon to try to hurt men that could still have a future.

    Says the hypocrite trying to deny men a future of their own choosing. A future that he deems unfit and thus he gets to demean and demoralize them from his seat on high.

    You have been found wanting. Hypocrite.

  418. 7817 says:

    You are a proven hypocrite who thinks they get to determine what is good and bad.

    No, I can still recognize good and bad, something you are no longer able to do. You are degenerating fast. Repent while there is time.

  419. feministhater says:

    You are a hypocrite.

    I am fine with who I am. There is still plenty to repent for. I gave men the raw deal, they can take it or leave it.

    You are a hypocrite. Nothing more.

  420. 7817 says:

    Says the hypocrite trying to deny men a future of their own choosing. A future that he deems unfit and thus he gets to demean and demoralize them from his seat on high.

    I would indeed deny you a future of trying to get other men to deny their futures. This is indeed an unfit future.

    You have chosen despair, you have chosen the abyss, this future I don’t deny you. But I won’t let you drag other men with you without resisting you. You must face your chosen abyss of despair alone.

  421. feministhater says:

    Repent while there is time.

    Do you stand on the street corner with this sign?

  422. feministhater says:

    But I won’t let you drag other men with you without resisting you. You must face your chosen abyss of despair alone.

    You are doing a woeful and pitiful job of it. I just tell men my opinion. They are free to accept or deny, as is their right. You cannot do anything to stop me, you cannot resist me. I am merely a voice in the mire called the internet. A faceless nobody. The message is all that matters.

    You are an irrelevant hypocrite fighting a figment of your imagination.

  423. 7817 says:

    I just tell men my opinion. They are free to accept or deny, as is their right. You cannot do anything to stop me, you cannot resist me.

    You are lying again. You have chosen your doom.

    I am merely a voice in the mire… A faceless nobody. The message is all that matters.

    This is demonic. Get help if you can.

  424. feministhater says:

    You are lying again. You have chosen your doom.

    Everything I say is my opinion. Men are free to choose to accept or deny. There is no lie in this. You are being delusional.

    This is demonic. Get help if you can.

    Really? Is this the best you have. You better stop conversing with me then. Do us all a favour, stick to your words, stop conversing with losers, stop conversing with those you think are demonic, save yourself instead. Your actions do not align with your beliefs.

  425. AnonS says:

    Right. I want to demoralize those particular loser mgtows who wish to demoralize normal men. They are empty husks, shells of former men, seeking to reproduce their failure in others.

    There is an anger phase in unplugging, don’t assume its permanent or that others are demoralized when they say they aren’t. Giving men the truth will cause a period of “lowered morale” in them.

    What you are calling “demoralized” is reduced trust in others and in society. But this is the expected outcome when things get bad, better to mourn with the truth then rejoice in falsehood.

    Men can find their way to a new order out of chaos. Its better then living in chaos and falsely believing everything will work out.

  426. 7817 says:

    @AnonS

    There is an anger phase in unplugging

    Exactly right, I went through it. That’s how I know that these men haven’t just gone through it, but are stuck there by choice.

    Giving men the truth will cause a period of “lowered morale” in them.

    No disagreement here, but there is giving men the truth, and then there is gleefully seeking to get other men to sit in despair with you. The truth is valuable even if it is extremely painful. Despair is not constructive for a man, it destroys him.

    What you are calling “demoralized” is reduced trust in others and in society.

    No. This is the definition I am using:

    Definition of demoralize
    transitive verb

    1 : to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right : to corrupt the morals of
    2a : to weaken the morale of : DISCOURAGE, DISPIRIT
    were demoralized by the loss
    b : to upset or destroy the normal functioning of
    c : to throw into disorder
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demoralize

    better to mourn with the truth then rejoice in falsehood.
    Men can find their way to a new order out of chaos. Its better then living in chaos and falsely believing everything will work out.

    I don’t disagree with this. However, loving the truth and loving despair may look the same to you, since the truth is so bad, but I assure you they are not the same.

  427. craig says:

    7817/AR and FH/Minesweeper, y’all are worse than Hopper and Joyce arguing. Either quit your bickering, or just pull the car over and get it over with:

  428. feministhater says:

    MGTOW is just a path a man chooses. You can fight it all you want but nothing changes, for you offer the man nothing. Thus MGTOW grows.

    It’s arguing over spilled milk at this point.

    Nothing changes. I’ve chosen my path because I saw that no one else was going to do anything so I did something for myself. That is all I can do, if you bros think you can save the world, go ahead, make my day. Do it.

  429. 7817 says:

    MGTOW is just a path a man chooses. You can fight it all you want but nothing changes, for you offer the man nothing.

    No one offers you anything because not only are you not worth it, you are proud of it and have chosen worthlessness.

  430. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    if you bros think you can save the world

    You keep writing this in different threads. Who exactly is “you bros”? Can you name the people you think believe they “can save the world”?

  431. feministhater says:

    No one offers you anything because not only are you not worth it, you are proud of it and have chosen worthlessness.

    Blah blah blah. Hypocrite. Still breaking your own beliefs. Still trying to put down men who don’t agree with you.

    You offer nothing. Absolutely nothing. Of course men are going their own way. It’s the only sane option at this point.

  432. feministhater says:

    You keep writing this in different threads. Who exactly is “you bros”? Can you name the people you think believe they “can save the world”?

    Everyone who thinks they have an answer to the insanity that is the world today. If they think they know the answer, then go save the world. Stop messing around on a forum, start putting into practice your beliefs and save the world, one bit at a time.

    MGTOW is the belief that a man cannot change the insanity and thus chooses his own path because of that knowledge. Choosing to change his own circumstance rather than society at large. Those who disagree with MGTOW obviously think they can change the world, therefore I am targeting those who disagree with MGTOW to go and put their ideas into practice and change the world. Else it’s merely false bravado.

    Is there any further misunderstanding?

  433. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    Everyone who thinks they have an answer to the insanity that is the world today.

    And, who is that? I asked if you can name these people. Can you?

  434. 7817 says:

    FH

    You offer nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    You deserve nothing.

    I’m offering you a look in the mirror, at your own abyss, and saying you don’t have to live this way. There is hope, but only if you repent.

  435. Minesweeper says:

    @7817 says:”So instead of being satisfied with this, you try to discourage other men from at least having genetic success, and encourage them to despair. Descendants for me, but not for thee as it were. You are contemptible trash.”

    so how is your genetic line is doing ? infertility can do strange things to people.

    is this why your such an angry man ?

  436. feministhater says:

    7817 is quite obviously one

    Anon Reader for another

    You

    Red Pill Christianity

    BillyS

    Scott

    There are others I’m sure. Just think of those who disagree with MGTOW. You have a good head on your shoulders. You have all the answers. You adopt, have many children, you’re a military engineer, you have it figured out.

    If you can’t change the world, if you cannot fix it… how do you expect others not so great as you to do so?

    It’s literally a call to those who disagree with the MGTOW tenants to go out there and prove that they can pull back the insanity and restore order. If you admit you cannot do this, that you cannot stop the march of insanity, MGTOW has a point.

    Quite simple.

  437. feministhater says:

    I’m offering you a look in the mirror, at your own abyss, and saying you don’t have to live this way. There is hope, but only if you repent.

    I don’t take anything from hypocrites.

  438. 7817 says:

    If you can’t change the world, if you cannot fix it… how do you expect others not so great as you to do so?

    The world can’t be fixed by any of us. It’s to big a job for anyone.

    It’s literally a call to those who disagree with the MGTOW tenants to go out there and prove that they can pull back the insanity and restore order.

    It’s literally bait. No man can fix the world. God is the only one who can. All we can do is believe God and surrender, and stop living as enemies of God.

    If you admit you cannot do this, that you cannot stop the march of insanity, MGTOW has a point.

    Your own particular brand of mgtow is partially based on a lie, the lie that ANYONE but God can fix the world.

    You are making the point of the Enemy for him. He shows us the state of the world and says to despair. But God shows us there is salvation in Christ.

  439. feministhater says:

    Your own particular brand of mgtow is partially based on a lie, the lie that ANYONE but God can fix the world.

    You are making the point of the Enemy for him. He shows us the state of the world and says to despair. But God shows us there is salvation in Christ.

    My salvation lies in Christ, not in marriage. I don’t despair. You are doing so. You have decided to ascribe this feeling towards me. I have decided not to get married, I have made it a point to clarify this as long as I’ve been on this blog. I don’t believe Biblical Marriage exists as an institution anymore, I cannot advise any man get married legally today for this reason, modern marriage is a sham.

    I don’t despair at the passing of this society, it is debased, not worth fighting for. You are stuck in the belief that MGTOW is despair, whereas I know it’s about finding your worth for yourself.

    With each passing day I grow ever more hopeful. MGTOW gave me hope, it set me on a path, at least to somewhere. Society is no longer interested in men like me. That’s fine, I don’t mind anymore. I used to despair about this, now I rejoice.

    Your actions do not show a man trying to help other men out of despair but one willing to demean and reduce them to such a state. This is your driving force.

    I will no longer converse with you. Have a nice life.

  440. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    7817 is quite obviously one

    Anon Reader for another

    You

    Red Pill Christianity

    BillyS

    Scott

    Thanks for actually answering the question. Here’s the problem. I’ve specifically stated many times that I’m not trying to “save the world”, or Western Civilization, or whatever. I’ve specifically stated that I have my hands too full raising my family to do anything so grandiose as “saving the world”, or Western Civilization.

    You have all the answers.

    Can you provide one quote in which I stated that I “have all the answers”?

    you have it figured out.

    Can you provide one quote in which I stated that I “have it figured out”?

    If you can’t change the world, if you cannot fix it

    Yeah. I said that.

    … how do you expect others not so?

    Can you provide one quote in which I stated that I “expect others” to “change the world”, or “fix it”?

    It’s literally a call to those who disagree with the MGTOW tenants to go out there and prove that they can pull back the insanity and restore order. If you admit you cannot do this, that you cannot stop the march of insanity

    Can you provide one quote in which I stated that I “can pull back the insanity and restore order”, or “restore order”, or “stop the march of insanity”?

    Because I’ve said the exact opposite of that. I’ve been saying all along that we’re on the slippery slope described in Romans 1, and that – just as Paul states in Romans 1 – the slope only gets steeper from here.

    So, can you provide any of those quotes? Or did you just make up a bunch of crap in your head and project it onto me for some weird reason?

  441. feministhater says:

    Can you provide one quote in which I stated that I “expect others” to “change the world”, or “fix it”?

    I’m not actually saying you said these things. I’m saying them as an example. If you cannot save the world, there isn’t much chance for the rest of us, do you see? Since you have your life so sorted out. If you can’t do it… MGTOW is probably the best most of us can get…

    MGTOW worked for me, it allowed me to sort out my own issues and be content with my life. You disagree with it so I include you in with those people who think they have a better solution. Do you not have a better solution?

    None of the above was a statement of what you or others were saying exactly, it’s about your disagreement with MGTOW. You don’t want men to go MGTOW so…. do you have something else that actually works. If so, show it. That is all.

  442. feministhater says:

    If you don’t have a solution with a proven track record that truly works in today’s environment of marriage hell, don’t be surprised more men choose to leave society behind and focus on themselves.

    People miss the woods for the trees. I don’t think society owes me anything. 7817 is right in that respect. I don’t deserve a darn thing. In that same respect, society doesn’t deserve anything from me. If society needs men to get married, have children and produce beyond our necessary needs, there has to be something in it for us. Basic economics.

    At this point, MGTOW is just a better lifestyle choice, it really is that simple. I wish to inform men of this choice. Get mad but please do offer something in its place. Something tangible and something that rewards men with a decent life and not a prison cell or lifetime servitude.

  443. BillyS says:

    The problem (the modern worship of women, modern marriage, etc.) will not be fixed by only “trying to make things work” and that is the core flaw you face 7817. Most people, including young men, will continue to ignore the deep-rooted problem until they are confronted with the ugly nasty reality.

    Seeing things as they really are and having men make choices appropriate to that is the only thing that can eventually shake things up enough to make a change.

    [Isa 4:1 NKJV] 1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, “We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel; Only let us be called by your name, To take away our reproach.”

    We need a shock to the system until something like this will happen.

    The idea has been a problem for some time as this shows, but the desire to change must be driven in those who are exploiting the system for their own benefits. Even the “good wives” of a few of those here have to constantly swim against the current to not use the system in at least some manner.

    And ultimately no firm Biblical command for a modern man to marry exists, as Emp Const noted above. (Though I still cannot support shacking up. I think modern government control of marriage is immoral, but then much of what we must live under is immoral and that is far from the worst.)

    You need to make a firm Biblical case for that first. No one should follow their own ways (and not God’s ways) in this life, but marrying has no direct impact on that in most of the cases.

    I wish I had realized this stuff what I was getting married over 3 decades ago. I would have at least gone in with my eyes opened much more and had a chance to build something that would last rather than picking someone who I only thought was faithful. (The signs were there, even though they were not as strong as in most that are often disparaged here.)

    This is a battle of rhetoric though, so some will still oppose MGTOWs even if they privately acknowledge those who have that labeled applied to them (voluntarily or not) have a great deal of truth.

    You can’t have compassion on a case like mine and still oppose all MGTOW behaviors, though you probably will!

  444. 7817 says:

    BillyS, you’re not reading what I’m writing.

    I don’t oppose all mgtow behaviors.

    What I oppose is the demoralization that some mgtows can’t help but indulge in.

  445. BillyS says:

    7817,

    You cannot completely separate that demoralization from life. You might want to step back and consider that.

    Think of someone going through the stages of grief. They are going to be really negative at points, but it is a part of going through the process.

    Though much of the modern system is inherently negative and you cannot remove that without ignoring the problems. That may not be your intent, but it is how you come across.

  446. 7817 says:

    It was explained upthread. If you can’t tell the difference I can’t help you Billy. I don’t care how it comes across.

  447. BillyS says:

    Which shows you have exactly no compassion 7817. Go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back for being right, the AMoG and one of the few striving for what is right.

    Perhaps you will learn a little humility after you face more of life, perhaps not. I know I am always right (only somewhat joking), but I have learned that I need to have compassion for others. Too bad you don’t have that same view.

    You are certainly not acting in a godly manner.

  448. 7817 says:

    Which shows you have exactly no compassion 7817. Go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back for being right, the AMoG and one of the few striving for what is right.

    This was discussed upthread too.

    Perhaps you will learn a little humility after you face more of life, perhaps not. I know I am always right (only somewhat joking), but I have learned that I need to have compassion for others. Too bad you don’t have that same view.

    You are certainly not acting in a godly manner.

    I’m not here to attack you Billy but neither am I concerned with your opinion of me.

  449. 7817 says:

    Dalrock, thank you for your tolerance. I don’t plan to make this an ongoing battle.

    I’ve learned what I was trying to figure out.

  450. TheTraveler says:

    @Ann

    I find your observations completely at odds with the reality I’ve found in a dozen cities in 30 years. In my experience, church girls don’t want church guys.

    The few church girls I’ve known didn’t give me the time of day when I was a fit, reasonably decent-looking young buck. Some of them occasionally turned up with some non-religious PUA Neanderthal, introduced as their boyfriend. And no, I’m not interested in Martha Dumptruck or Susie Nonstop-Praying. There’s something wrong with them. Too bad, but the martyrdom of shackling yourself to one of these is foolishness, not virtue.

    There’s another dimension: her parents. Some made clear to me with shocking ruthlessness I wasn’t good enough–a military officer with a science degree: I wasn’t a doctor, lawyer, professor, dentist, etc. One mother chose the church steps to make this point.

    Those talking about online dating are correct. Those sites are packed with “conservative” girls who emphasize their faith. Many are in their late 30s and up, still attractive. Just haven’t found the right guy, they say. Or up till now they’ve been busy with their career and now they’re ready to find someone special. But somehow, they never find their perfect unicorn that Providence has designated just for her.

    It used to be that women made a lot if the running. Inviting young men to safe social events and family dinners. Nowadays, it’s all on men, who can find themselves in deep hot water for seemingly anything at all.

  451. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    I’m not actually saying you said these things.

    That’s because I never said them. Do you know why I never said them? Because I never thought them. Those thoughts never even crossed my mind.

    So, why are you projecting them onto me?

    I’m saying them as an example.

    Example of what? They’re certainly not an example of anything that ever crossed my mind.

    If you cannot save the world, there isn’t much chance for the rest of us, do you see?

    Once again; can you provide a quote in which I stated that you, or anyone else, should “save the world”? If not, then why do you project onto me thoughts I’ve never thought?

    Since you have your life so sorted out.

    Who said that I have my “life so sorted out”?

    You disagree with it so I include you in with those people who think they have a better solution.

    Show me where I argued against it.

    None of the above was a statement of what you or others were saying exactly

    Really? Isn’t that interesting. So, if you didn’t get any of those statements from any of us, from whom did you get them? Where did those statements come from, if they didn’t come from the people on whom you projected them?

    it’s about your disagreement with MGTOW.

    Once again; can you show me where I argued against it?

    You don’t want men to go MGTOW

    Where did I tell anyone not to? Do you have a quote? Or are you just making crap up in your head, and projecting it onto me?

  452. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    If you don’t have a solution with a proven track record that truly works in today’s environment of marriage hell, don’t be surprised more men choose to leave society behind and focus on themselves.

    People miss the woods for the trees. I don’t think society owes me anything. 7817 is right in that respect. I don’t deserve a darn thing. In that same respect, society doesn’t deserve anything from me. If society needs men to get married, have children and produce beyond our necessary needs, there has to be something in it for us. Basic economics.

    At this point, MGTOW is just a better lifestyle choice, it really is that simple. I wish to inform men of this choice. Get mad but please do offer something in its place. Something tangible and something that rewards men with a decent life and not a prison cell or lifetime servitude.

    To whom are you addressing all these words?

  453. Dale U says:

    TheTraveler

    her parents. Some made clear to me with shocking ruthlessness I wasn’t good enough–a military officer with a science degree

    Wow, that is harsh. I thought I had it bad enough, with only the empowered women themselves declining my offers for time together.

    Go to Ukraine for a vacation. Don’t wait until you are as old as I was to do so…. Even if you do not find a wife, the experience will solidify your nagging suspicion that the women here deliberately choose to be inferior, or less than what they should.

  454. feministhater says:

    Well, obviously you support MGTOW then Oscar. You don’t have your life sorted out. You haven’t adopted plenty of kids, you’re not a military engineer or any of that.

    Is this correct?

  455. feministhater says:

    To whom are you addressing all these words?

    To the people who disagree with MGTOW.

  456. feministhater says:

    Really? Isn’t that interesting. So, if you didn’t get any of those statements from any of us, from whom did you get them? Where did those statements come from, if they didn’t come from the people on whom you projected them?

    Do you not get that they are generalizations of what is said when others disagree with MGTOW? It’s not what anyone said specifically but an example of what is stated in general. If someone disagrees with men leaving society and going their own way, they obviously have a better solution.

    Have you have not read the plenty of times when someone says: “I understand why men go MGTOW but I cannot agree with it, blah blah blah.”?

    If they can’t agree with it, they should come up with something better. Otherwise, it’s just a back and forth, with no ending, no solution. MGTOW is a solution to the problem for the individual man. He can undertake practical steps to insure his own safety and prosperity. It helps him when no one else is willing.

  457. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    Well, obviously you support MGTOW then Oscar. You don’t have your life sorted out. You haven’t adopted plenty of kids, you’re not a military engineer or any of that.

    Is this correct?

    I am indifferent to MGTOW. I’ve never claimed to have my life sorted out. Yes, I’ve adopted kids, and yes I’m a military engineer.

    Does that clear things up for you?

    Do you not get that they are generalizations of what is said when others disagree with MGTOW? It’s not what anyone said specifically but an example of what is stated in general.

    Do you not get that you projected statements onto me that I never made? If you want to criticize people for “what is stated in general”, then criticize the people who actually made those statements. I never did. And you know it. Which means you’re lying about me.

    Have you have not read the plenty of times when someone says: “I understand why men go MGTOW but I cannot agree with it, blah blah blah.”?

    Can you provide one quote in which I made such a statement?

  458. Minesweeper says:

    @Dale U says:”Go to Ukraine for a vacation. Don’t wait until you are as old as I was to do so…. Even if you do not find a wife, the experience will solidify your nagging suspicion that the women here deliberately choose to be inferior, or less than what they should.”

    Hell yeah !

    Women maybe need to experience a total collapse to realise how f888ing lucky they are.

    Sad but true.

  459. feministhater says:

    Can you provide one quote in which I made such a statement?

    I explained exactly to you what I meant. No more.

    If you don’t have issue with MGTOW, then don’t worry about it.

  460. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    I explained exactly to you what I meant. No more.

    I see. So, you expect me to accept what you meant, but you insist on projecting on me statements I never made, attitudes I never held, and thoughts I never thought. Funny how that works.

    If you don’t have issue with MGTOW, then don’t worry about it.

    Why did you ever assume I had “issue” with MGTOW?

  461. feministhater says:

    So, you expect me to accept what you meant, but you insist on projecting on me statements I never made..

    I don’t expect you to do anything. I explained what I meant and that’s that. If you don’t like it, it ain’t really my problem.

    You asked me who I directed my statement at, I explained to you that it was to those who disagree with MGTOW. This was not enough, you wanted names as if you were on some kind of Inquisition. If you don’t consider yourself one of those people, fine.

    I don’t care. It’s not important.

  462. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater

    I explained what I meant and that’s that. If you don’t like it, it ain’t really my problem.

    Your problem is that you you insist on projecting on me statements I never made, attitudes I never held, and thoughts I never thought. And, since it’s me you were lying about, then you also made it my problem.

    You asked me who I directed my statement at, I explained to you that it was to those who disagree with MGTOW. This was not enough, you wanted names as if you were on some kind of Inquisition. If you don’t consider yourself one of those people, fine.

    I don’t care. It’s not important.

    If “it’s not important”, than why did you bring it up in the first place? And you still didn’t answer the question. Why did you ever assume I had “issue” with MGTOW?

  463. BillyS says:

    Oscar,

    Why do you keep caring if no one is talking to you, since you claim to have never said things that are being generically opposed here?

    Even if someone incorrectly thought you said something, why keep at it when that is corrected? What is driving you otherwise?

  464. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Even if someone incorrectly thought you said something, why keep at it when that is corrected? What is driving you otherwise?

    I don’t like being lied about. Nor do I like it when others lie about my friends. Do you?

  465. BillyS says:

    Meh.

    I am not going to worry that much. I can even let things drop. Though these older conversations do tend to drop when they get off the lead list on the top right of the blog’s landing page.

    I think you are reading a bit too much into things and making too much ado about little of genuine importance. Though you are similar to many modern males in that you can’t allow any disagreement.

    That is quite ironic in the age of “acceptance” we are supposed to be in now. “You can believe whatever you want, except if it disagrees with what I believe.” So someone disagrees with you or believes something wrong? Is it really that horrid?

    It may be annoying, but it gets old when viewed from the outside.

    I still think you are looking past the root of some of what you are saying, but I don’t care that much now. (Just hitting this reply since I happened to look. I am not trying to reopen the argument.)

    Insult me all you want. I am a human and have both good and bad ideas, as are you.

  466. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS

    Though you are similar to many modern males in that you can’t allow any disagreement.
    ….
    So someone disagrees with you or believes something wrong? Is it really that horrid?

    Disagreement is fine. Lying isn’t.

    It may be annoying, but it gets old when viewed from the outside.

    No one is forcing you to view anything.

    Insult me all you want.

    When have I ever insulted you?

  467. TAS says:

    “My 20s came and went without God sending me a husband.”

    Is God supposed to wrap a husband up in a box and drop him off at your doorstep?

  468. Pingback: Lest we forget, Marriage was once intended to Glorify God | Σ Frame

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