Secular feminists are more honest than conservative Christians.

Lori Gottlieb writes a weekly series called Dear Therapist for The Atlantic.  This week’s letter is from a single woman who is tired of her married friends coming to her with petty grievances about their husbands.  The article is titled Dear Therapist: It’s Hard to Accept Being Single

They assume that because things are going well in other aspects of my life, I am okay with my nonexistent romantic life, and therefore free to listen to them complain. I am not. It’s the reason I have been in and out of therapy for the past few years—the inability to accept and deal with the fact that I am single, with no real prospects on the horizon.

I want to be a good friend, but I just don’t think I can hear another story about how he forgot to take out the trash or call right back so the marriage/relationship is over!

Gottlieb’s response is markedly different than what we would see from a conservative Christian.  She makes no disparaging remarks about men, either the loser men who don’t take out the trash, or the loser men who aren’t showing up to ask the letter writer out on paid dates and propose marriage.  She also doesn’t tell the letter writer to embrace her “season of singleness”, tell her to find meaning in “the wait”, doesn’t warn her to “never settle”, and doesn’t tell her that she is the pearl of great price, a prize to be won, etc.  Instead, Gottlieb acknowledges that the letter writer has something real to grieve:

What your friends might not realize is that many single people who long for a partner experience something called ambiguous loss or ambiguous grief. It’s a type of grieving, but it’s different from the grieving someone might do after a concrete loss like the death of a spouse from, say, cancer.

Gottlieb even obliquely acknowledges the pettiness of the wives complaining about their husbands when framing possible responses the letter writer can employ:

When you complain about your partner, it’s like telling me that your meal at a nice restaurant was disappointing at a time when I’m hungry and not sure there will ever be enough food for me.

When you’re upset with your partner and make offhand comments like “Don’t get married!” or “You’re so lucky you’re single!,” please remember that I’m often very lonely. When you say “I wish I had your free time!,” remember that a lot of my time and emotional energy involves trying to find a partner, which can be demoralizing and exhausting. I’d rather spend my supposedly glamorous “free” time doing something as unglamorous as sitting on the couch watching Netflix with a significant other.

Imagine how I feel when you complain that your husband, who adores and desires you, wants to have sex with you at an inopportune time—while my choices are sex with strangers or no sex at all.

I think it is fair to say that implicit in Gottlieb’s response is an assumption that the letter writer is in her late thirties or older.  I think this is a fair assumption about her age, given the fact that the letter writer reads The Atlantic and her friends are all married or in something like a marriage.  If the letter writer were under 25 I would expect Gottlieb to assure her that she is too young to marry.  If the letter writer were in her late twenties or early thirties, I would expect Gottlieb to give the letter writer advice in line with Gottlieb’s famous Atlantic article and book, and encourage her to stop being so picky and settle for a good enough man.

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This entry was posted in Aging Feminists, Complementarian, Lori Gottlieb, Status of marriage, The Atlantic, Traditional Conservatives. Bookmark the permalink.

119 Responses to Secular feminists are more honest than conservative Christians.

  1. Anonymous Reader says:

    Based only on this interaction, Gottlieb could do a real service at Focus on the Family or the 700 Club. However, this feminist who writes for Atlantic would be a problem at FoTF or 700, because she’s too culturally conservative for those outfits.

    Too culturally conservative…

    My RDA of irony is met.

  2. William of Orange County says:

    It is stuff like this that adds yet more convincing evidence marriage – for women – is what’s known as a ‘false peak’ (mountaineering term).

    These women have been brainwashed into thinking marriage is this penultimate thing that will magically inject meaning into their lives only to ‘arrive’ at married life and realize is this as good as it gets? Once again, this is because their expectations are unreasonable, hence the ‘marriage is over’ kvetching and dramatics.

    Worse still is this single friend, finding a partner and entering married life, would likely join her friends in making back-handed off-hand comments about her husband “not taking out the trash”.

    The American fantasy promoted by American culture, Hollywood and the complementarian church has broken American women. It has broken any sense of duty they may have had in decades past. A reset is coming, one that I hope will leave those without the tenacity to ‘live’ their marriages behind permanently in loneliness and bareness.

  3. bigjohn33 says:

    Anybody else notice the 2 interracial lesbian couples in the cartoon with the boats at the top of the Atlantic article?

  4. Damn Crackers says:

    Wow. A virtuous pagan can be found in the pages of the Atlantic.

  5. Rhetocrates says:

    These women have been brainwashed into thinking marriage is this penultimate thing that will magically inject meaning into their lives only to ‘arrive’ at married life and realize is this as good as it gets? Once again, this is because their expectations are unreasonable, hence the ‘marriage is over’ kvetching and dramatics.

    I think you’re being far too kind to these women, and the writer of the letter and the columnist both know it.

    These women in their early-to-late-thirties complaining to their early-to-late-thirties “friend” about all the petty annoyances of marriage aren’t primarily interested in venting their frustrations to a sympathetic ear, nor (simply) pushing along the feminist cultural trolley. These women are glorying in their status as women who ‘succeeded’ by constantly rubbing that success in the face of the local failure. They are actively enjoying the moral and social high ground by enjoying her misery in failure.

  6. Hazelshade says:

    In theory secular feminists like Gottlieb and the single letter writer would be receptive to arguments for young marriage based on health. The letter writer is in a position to agree that young marriage is more emotionally healthy than using so much of her resources on finding a mate. Then, young marriage is better for the physical health of future children. One need not haggle over the healthiness of babies with 20- vs 30-year old mothers here–the most obvious thing is the energy difference in the parents. Women and men in their thirties and forties are apt to agree that twenty-somethings have more energy to devote to their children in parenting than they themselves do.

  7. h0neyc0mb says:

    Rhetocrates sez ..

    These women in their early-to-late-thirties complaining to their early-to-late-thirties “friend” about all the petty annoyances of marriage aren’t primarily interested in venting their frustrations to a sympathetic ear, nor (simply) pushing along the feminist cultural trolley. These women are glorying in their status as women who ‘succeeded’ by constantly rubbing that success in the face of the local failure. They are actively enjoying the moral and social high ground by enjoying her misery in failure.

    ^^^ THIS ^^^

  8. Unicycle says:

    I cannot say I have run into the type of women Rhetocrates speaks of as I do not see the intention of signaling success. I am not sure if a woman can be satiated on this side of eternity (and thus why barred from authority in the church).

    Unhappy people will complain despite not having a “good” reason to complain. It is an attitude of the heart. My wife has got a lot better and now we just had our first child she is slowly being “saved by childbearing”.

    Any complaints now by the wife or friends is met with a change of subject or leaving the vicinity. I have not found if there is a better way.

  9. BillyS says:

    Big John,

    The gender in the cartoon is quite vague, likely intentionally.

  10. krakonos says:

    A bit off-topic and lengthy comment.
    I am an infrequent reader and am quite fascinated by American realities. As I look at it from C-E European perspective and can find similarities but also striking differences.
    Like this one, where are all good men gone, or conservative Christians (non-existent in a country where only about 3% are regular church attenders).

    I have never encounter similar articles (like settling) in our mainstream media.
    For example settling in 30s – it is no issue as a woman can just move from off-line to on-line dating, where there is lopsided men-to-women ratio up to forties. Taking weeks for a woman, much longer if at all for a man. As a personal example 30-something woman chatting with other on finding a new relationship after breakup: “How long did it take to find a new partner?”. “Eight weeks”. It took so long as she is not attractive neither from outside nor from inside. Unlike her new partner.

    When it comes to MSM the only articles I remember on relationships’ topic were like: more than 50% of male university students have no relationship, hookups or anything alike (I guess this is similar to the US). Then things like disparity of number of men and women in relationships and disparity of number of men and women siring children (not that bad in the US, I guess). Then lamentations over falling PISA scores, degrading performance in A-level exams always followed by re-adjustments. Sometimes voices of despair on effects of broken families on schoolchildren and adolescents, early onset of puberty etc.

    I have always moved along in MC and UMC settings with people like researchers, doctors, engineers – to teachers, accountants,… Via my high school peers (in late thirties now), friends, co-workers. So, I see world from this perspective and some trends are quite scary.

    When it comes to relationships, women have no issues with relationships (virtually all having one of their preference). Number of children by choice.
    For men it is different – from my observations in peers – around 30% (skewed towards hard sciences) have no children, relationship, or dates (even with single mothers), no perspective of having any. Socio-economic status seems irrelevant – talking about men in 80th-95th income percentile. For co-workers the number is the same and that low only because some other 20% – 25% have a foreign partner/wife (we have more immigrants than emigrants despite being a former communist block country).

    Fertility is another elephant in the room. PISA test scores are a good predictor of academic/economic success (our teacher pinned a list with names and scores on a class board) and also of fertility (negative correlation). Both for men and women. Yet for different reasons. Brightest women go for academic/work career and fun being voluntarily childless (and unmarried) – at least for now, maybe will pop-out a child (if at all) just before 40. Regardless of having supportive partners. Men tend to be either involuntary childless (even more without relationship) or having one quite late. So, there is not only crushed fertility but also a shift in age (to mid to late thirties) compared to a bit less capable peers or just high school graduates or drop-outs where the age tends to go significantly down with each ladder. In men fertility is “rescued” by law/humanities/arts types having children with multiple women.
    We are essentially losing anyone talented, especially for anything distantly resembling hard sciences (from biology, through medicine to engineering/physics).
    I would call it culling of the nerds.

  11. Expat Philo says:

    Krakonos TL;DR:

    Women make dumb choices when fertile, men are too afraid to confront that stupidity.

    Same is happening stateside, I’m sad to say.

  12. feministhater says:

    Yeah, they’re more honest alright. They will tell you to your face that they hate and despise you. The rest wish it behind your back. In that way, secular feminists are definitely more noble.

  13. Hazelshade says:

    @krakonos

    I have never encounter similar articles (like settling) in our mainstream media.
    For example settling in 30s – it is no issue as a woman can just move from off-line to on-line dating, where there is lopsided men-to-women ratio up to forties. Taking weeks for a woman, much longer if at all for a man.

    I have tried online dating in the US, and I have long suspected this. I have had too few friends try online dating in real life to seriously corroborate, but my experience definitely sounds like what you’re saying.

    The angst around settling in the US seems to indicate that entitlement issues are even more serious here than in Central/Eastern Europe.

  14. Pingback: Secular feminists are more honest than conservative Christians. | Reaction Times

  15. locustsplease says:

    This poor woman has not found someone to become the most hated person in her life. Somebody needs to get these guys to man up!

  16. Frank K says:

    @krakonos

    Thanks for sharing your “boots on the ground” report. Many in the western manosphere believe that former communist block countries are full of desperate but beautiful women whose only choices locally are boorish louts and who would be ecstatic with a beta/nerd if they could just find one.

  17. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    This secular actress sounds identical to Wendy. TV actress Vanessa Marcil advises girls that “The best love is SELF love.” as a way of attracting men:

    View this post on Instagram

    Let’s raise our girls with some truth….

    A post shared by vanessamarcilmlovesk (@vanessamarcilmlovesk) on

  18. Frank K says:

    Anybody else notice the 2 interracial lesbian couples in the cartoon with the boats at the top of the Atlantic article?

    2 out of 4 boats. The only time I ever see people like this is on the rare occasions when I venture to my metro area’s downtown, and even then, unless I was foolish enough to go during “pride” week, the sightings are sporadic. Even white hetero couples with children in strollers, which are supposed to be nearly extinct in progressive areas, vastly outnumber them.

    When you consider just how few they are it is sobering to see how they have completely taken over our national culture. You can’t watch a new TV show or movie without a prominent homosexual character, often one who was retconned into homosexuality if the show or movie is a reboot. I am fully expecting a future Thanksgiving special where Squanto or one of the pilgrims is openly homosexual, or maybe a new Peanuts TV special where Marcie and Peppermint Patty come out of the closest: “It’s Time For Pride, Charlie Brown.”

    Nothing would surprise me any more.

  19. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Anyone ever see Marty? It was a TV play in the 1953 (below), and a move in the 1960s. It’s about settling.

    It’s about an ordinary Beta male, Marty, who’s still single at 35. Everyone pesters him about still being singe. He hates being alone. It’s intimated he’s still a virgin. But he’s no good with girls.

    He reluctantly goes to this dance, and meets a school teacher, still single at 29. That was old for a woman in 1953. She’s a Plain Jane wallflower type. But they date and have a good time.

    Nobody like Marty’s date. In the end he decides he doesn’t care. In a speech, he tells his mother that he’s just an ordinary nobody, not good looking, and he’s never gonna get a 10 (I forget his exact words). But that he likes this girl, and he thinks she likes him, and they enjoyed each other’s company, so he’s gonna get down on his knees and ask her to marry him.

    Both Marty and the girl settle, for each other, but they’ll be happier together than they would have been alone.

    Author Paddy Cheavesky, in an interview, said he wrote this script to count the poisonous message sent out by so many Hollywood movies and romance novels, where all lovers were beautiful and perfect, and that everyone should wait for their perfect partner and never settle.

  20. When you say “I wish I had your free time!,” remember that a lot of my time and emotional energy involves trying to find a partner, which can be demoralizing and exhausting. I’d rather spend my supposedly glamorous “free” time doing something as unglamorous as sitting on the couch watching Netflix with a significant other.

    Netflix & Chill.

  21. I agree.
    I think married women “complaining” about their marriages is not genuine.
    Men hear this and say to themselves what a bunch of ungrateful wenches!
    But what these married women are doing is not so subtly rubbing their 30-something single friend’s nose into the fact that she is single, unselected, missed the bus and the train and has no chair when the music stops.

    We men see women comforting each other in public with warm words, hugs, half-pints of Haagen-Daz, but we woefully underestimate the kind cackling, knowing glee that happens behind the scenes with which women, sometimes in cliques, absolutely relish the disqualification and downfall of their female rivals. The German calls this Schadenfreude.
    “Better her than me!”

  22. Anon says:

    “This secular actress sounds identical to Wendy. TV actress Vanessa Marcil advises girls that “The best love is SELF love.” as a way of attracting men.”

    She is twice-divorced and is now 50. She was very pretty back in the day, but she is 50 now.

  23. Frank K says:

    Reading her bio on wikipedia her life has been a massive clusterf*ck. In addition to her divorces, she’s had seven miscarriages.

  24. Frank K says:

    Anyone ever see Marty?

    I saw the movie with Ernst Borgnine. It was fascinating in that it was a time capsule showing what life was like for average people back then. No XBoxes for guys like Marty, who hung out at the pub with his friends trying to figure out what they were going to do that Saturday.

  25. Anno says:

    Is this the same Lori who had a child with a sperm donor? The same Lori who wrote Marry Him while being single?

  26. Rhetocrates says:

    For those of you who don’t see the gloating in the reported behaviour of the married friends: be glad.

    I’m willing to bet you’re men, though. Women behave differently toward men than they do toward each other, so you’re much less likely to be the target of, or even around, this kind of behaviour. It’s not aimed at you, so it’s harder to catch, and it doesn’t operate on your, to coin a phrase, biological and cultural biases.

    If you have a lot of sisters, though, I’m willing to bet you’ve seen it, or at least heard report of it.

    (I’m a man, too, so it took some heavy examples to clue me in. I’m not trying to be holier- or smarter-than-thou.)

    There is also the possibility that the majority of the women in your lives are more virtuous and less prone to gossip and other social sins than the apparent average, and that’s not a snide aside. I do really believe there are virtuous women in the world, even if they’re not the standard or the example.

  27. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Reading her bio on wikipedia her life has been a massive clusterf*ck. In addition to her divorces, she’s had seven miscarriages.

    In addition to her two divorces, she has given birth to one son, by a man to whom she was not married.

    She is currently living with yet another man, a Los Angeles Sherrif’s Deputy, who looks 10 to 15 years younger than her. So she’s found a Boy Toy to comfort her in her old age. I guess she’s his Sugar Momma.

    From her Instagram, it looks as if her Boy Toy is very alpha. Muscled and tattooed. Taking her on motorcycle rides, and to other outdoorsy, macho stuff. It probably makes her feel young.

    Other women see this and think, “Hey, when I’m 50, I too can have a muscled and tatted Boy Toy, much younger than me, taking me on exciting adventures.

  28. Oscar says:

    Remember when I wrote that Wendy’s advice is especially cruel because she’s selling a glamorous “season of singleness” that the vast majority of women will never achieve?

    Thanks, Lori.

  29. Keith says:

    Females understand other females and they hate each other. Women are never friends with one another they are all ways in competition. There’s a mate guarding aspect in play. Why are these married girls hanging out with a single woman??

  30. 370H55V says:

    @bigjohn33

    I sure did. Sickening.

  31. Spike says:

    Gottlieb is honest. That’s what I can say. She hasn’t given anyone the “God hates settling”, “Daughter of the King”, “Pearl of Great Price” routine.
    The underlying theme to married women complaining is that they had to give up a lot – “Their freedom” – to get married. And they resent it. And it shows.
    But what exactly DID they give up? They marry, today, as they get older, after many years of carousel riding. So, what have they given up?
    Promiscuity.
    They resent their husbands because their husbands have forced them to be monogamous. Hence the nitpicking, obsessive faultfinding and perfection- demanding. That their husbands actually save them – from a second half of life full of barrenness, bitterness and loneliness – hasn’t dawned on them.
    I never blame MGTOWs for the way they think. When they rub into old gnarly feminists that they have to live with the choices they have made, it just may be a warning to younger girls to not drink the feminist Kool Aid, not believe the feminist lie.

  32. a bee ee? says:

    @FrankK

    Not only did I see Marty years ago, but I grew up in the Bronx neighborhood where it took place. The comments about it here neglect to mention one important aspect of the plot: Marty was Italian and lived with his mother, a very common arrangement for older unmarried Italian men (both in the US and in Italy) even to this day. His mother took every opportunity she could to torpedo any potential relationship he might have. First she asked about his love interest, Clara Snyder (played by Betsy Blair), “is she Catholic?” When Clara passed that test, it was “is she Italian?” and that was a deal-breaker . . . for Mama, but not for Marty. The movie ended with Marty deciding to make the call, leaving the viewer to speculate whether or not a relationship blossomed and if so, the conflict it would raise between Marty and Mama later on.

    I should know. I’m not Italian, but I went through exactly that when I got married late in life–now 22 years and going strong, despite my mother’s strenuous objections.

  33. TheTraveler says:

    This is all so very sad. I’m guessing the woman who wrote this fell into the propaganda trap, and doesn’t realize it to this day. We can presume she probably rejected some good guys in her time, too.

    The cognoscenti poison young women’s minds against marriage at a reasonable (i.e., fertile) age, with the Big Lie: “You can have it all!” The capstone to which is marriage. Yes, the same institution that’s poison/slavery when you’re 24 and fertile, is treasure/nirvana when you’re 35 and shopworn. Go figure. (The Devil glories in foisting such pernicious contradictions on humanity.)

    And grrrrrl, you “deserve the best.” So when they hit the age when, in a sane world, they would be ending their childbearing years, they now start seeking the unicorn: the gentleman-Chad husband, who gives you one (or two) perfect yuppie bambini, whom you dump at day care so you can languish in a cubicle at a mediocre (often horrible) job you glorify as your “career.”

    I’m guessing she’s tried to attain this dream, and failed. At some level, she probably realizes it’s all a lie, but to admit it is too painful. And I agree with Rhetocrates: at least part of her friends complaining to her is about “rubbing it in”: look what I gots, and you ain’t — neener, neener. I’ve seen women who think they’re alone just savage each other. As one writer said, “Women don’t even like each other.”

  34. vfm7916 says:

    @keith

    There’s only room for one in the center of the universe.

    It’s not that they understand each other, it’s simply that they project their own motivations and desire to be equal to God on every other woman, because that’s what she wants as well.

  35. 7817 says:

    Gottlieb’s response is markedly different than what we would see from a conservative Christian. She makes no disparaging remarks about men, either the loser men who don’t take out the trash, or the loser men who aren’t showing up to ask the letter writer out on paid dates and propose marriage. She also doesn’t tell the letter writer to embrace her “season of singleness”, tell her to find meaning in “the wait”, doesn’t warn her to “never settle”, and doesn’t tell her that she is the pearl of great price, a prize to be won, etc.

    In contrast, TBayly on Twitter has begun posting #manup beatdowns on a daily basis.

    There’s good and bad everywhere, but give me an honest pagan over a lying church person any day. God save us from Churches of the Lie. We have to seek the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it is, no matter how painfully it destroys our previous ego investments.

  36. feeriker says:

    In contrast, TBayly on Twitter has begun posting #manup beatdowns on a daily basis.

    I think it’s past time we conceded that Churchianity, Inc. wants nothing whatsoever to do with men, is doing its damnedest to drive away the few that remain loyal customers, and is trying to repel any potential newcomers.

  37. Anon says:

    In contrast, TBayly on Twitter has begun posting #manup beatdowns on a daily basis.

    Perhaps TBayly will be the first cuckservative pastorbator to pressure normal XY men to marry MtF XY trans ‘women’.

    Mark my words, some cuckservative will do this by 2021, and will actually claim that this makes them ‘pro traditional marriage’, and that XY men better man up and do it. TBayly may be the one to start vocalizing this.

  38. Ray6777 says:

    Outside of Nathan and a few others I don’t think anyone under 70 pays attention to Bayly because he is so laughably out of touch with what’s going on. He thinks any guy that pays attention to his appearance is gay when the reality is appearance is important for any guy that wants to actually get dates and get married. Bayly only has 1200 followers on Twitter which is nothing for an alleged bigshot.

  39. CSI says:

    Imagine how I feel when you complain that your husband, who adores and desires you, wants to have sex with you at an inopportune time—while my choices are sex with strangers or no sex at all.
    Lori and almost all other women may say this, and may even believe it, but actual evidence suggests they much prefer having sex with exciting strangers than their boring old husbands.

  40. Scott says:

    I don’t really know anything about Lori Gotleib, but I can see her Wikipedia page that she is (or was at one time) a licensed mental health provider.

    What she deserves credit for in this column is she has made a good faith effort to keep fidelity with a primary principle of the therapeutic relationship and has attempted to maintain a values-free response.

    In this case, she has met the “patient” where she is, and takes her internal experience with her married and otherwise taken friends as valid, regardless of how she may feel personally about it.

    The letter writer has expressed that “not being lonely” is an important value, and has further expressed that others making her feel a certain way with what she perceives as insensitive comments cause her a great deal of distress.

    Lori Gotlieb has engaged with those goals by helping the letter writer assert herself.

    Its actually not bad, from that perspective.

  41. krakonos says:

    Just few final thoughts.
    Economic:
    There are no adverse economic effects – in terms some claiming unattached (MGTOW) males (in such high numbers) will cease working hard and impact economy. Actually, they are natural hard workers, so they work as hard or even harder than married men. When I look at high school graduates, I see the same picture.
    The only effect is long term – generational shift of population (having vs not having children). Which takes like 30 years to be visible just for a single generation…

    Foreign partners/wives of coworkers:
    They are actually of better quality than local wives/partners. In terms of partnership stability (less divorce), education, attractivity. There are not enough of them though.

    US:
    US counterparts/colleagues of the same age and position seem to be married with families in higher numbers. So my guess US is actually not that bad, for MC/UMC. At least when it comes to mid-west.
    As far as I remember, we should have the greatest disparity of men to women (measured in their 50s) having children in Europe and potentially whole western world. Our situation is a bit extreme, then. And for younger the disparity is even higher…

  42. Opus says:

    In the Manosphere the impression is sometimes given that all females are 7s and above and in consequence treat all men except the true Alphas or those posing as such like dirt. It is of course the case that half of all women must be of below average looks, that no one grows younger and that many put on weight yet in the Manosphere such women are invisible.

    When I was Stateside I was struck by the lack of attractiveness of so many young women and I put that down to their being Christians for such they were. Given that America has been inhabited with people from all over Europe it cannot be a case of ethnic ugliness and so must be this: that Christians are taught that plain behaviour and plain appearance is good and this then colours their modes of appearance by their not making the most of themselves. I was aware of the unhappiness of a number of these women in their inability to attract male attention.

    That was not true of all. There was one young American woman who was clearly the Queen Bee. Facebook shows that she has now doubled in size and describes her husband as her ‘best friend’. Back in the day he was a bit ‘weedy’ but now a quarter century on looks very together and prosperous (and has not doubled in size). I am sure he could play away were he motivated which were I married to such a lump I would be. The moral must be that the respective MMV/SMV at the time of marriage may well reverse after some time and usually in favour of the man.

  43. Otto says:

    “It is of course the case that half of all women must be of below average looks”

    No it isn’t. Half of women are below the mean in looks, and half are above the mean. Average and mean are different.

    I rate the scale like the this: 1-4: unattractive, 5:not-unattractive, 6:cute, 7:pretty, 8:sexy, 9:beautiful, 10: both-sexy-and-beautiful.

    If there were no overweight women in the world, then 80% of women would be a 5, 6, or 7. That number range would be average as far as women’s looks went, because so many people cluster in those areas.

  44. vandicus says:

    Otto common parlance I’ve heard is median, with mean used for average.

    On the broader topic of attractiveness ratings, most people I think do it the way you do instead of deciles.

  45. citizen1en1 says:

    vandicus, you are correct. mean is the “average”. median is the middle value.

  46. sipcode says:

    The Romans didn’t insist on killing Christ; God’s people did.

    Lori Gottlieb doesn’t want to kill men; God’s people do.

  47. Dalrock says:

    @constrainedlocus

    I think married women “complaining” about their marriages is not genuine.
    Men hear this and say to themselves what a bunch of ungrateful wenches!
    But what these married women are doing is not so subtly rubbing their 30-something single friend’s nose into the fact that she is single, unselected, missed the bus and the train and has no chair when the music stops.

    We men see women comforting each other in public with warm words, hugs, half-pints of Haagen-Daz, but we woefully underestimate the kind cackling, knowing glee that happens behind the scenes with which women, sometimes in cliques, absolutely relish the disqualification and downfall of their female rivals. The German calls this Schadenfreude.
    “Better her than me!”

    I agree that there are status shivs in play here, but I don’t think it is an either/or. There are three things going on. The women are being petty, complaining where they should be grateful. They are being bullies (threats of divorce if he doesn’t jump-to). And they are rubbing the letter writer’s (and Gottlieb’s) unmarried status in their faces.

    @Rhetocrates

    For those of you who don’t see the gloating in the reported behaviour of the married friends: be glad.

    In the scheme of bad behavior by women, this is pretty benign. It would be better if women married and remained married for purely virtuous reasons, but at least this force is pushing in the right direction, even if not for the right reasons. The woman who is too proud to blow up her family and betray her marriage vows is still guilty of pride, but we would be fortunate if that was anywhere near our top social problem.

  48. Otto says:

    Oops, you are right. It should be median, not mean in the above post.

  49. Novaseeker says:

    If there were no overweight women in the world, then 80% of women would be a 5, 6, or 7

    Yeah that just opens the box about whether the scale is relative or absolute. In other words, is a 5 relative to the pool, or is it relative to the “platonic ideal of 5”. Different guys use different scales in their minds I think, relative or absolute or a mix of both.

    De facto, scales are relative and local because that is what is available in any given market. But that doesn’t mean every single guy in that market follows a relative scale — some guys follow absolute scales regardless of the local market, and if that doesn’t fit well, it doesn’t fit well. I think this is where some people can be more flexible than others when it comes to attraction (guys who use the relative scale vs guys who use the absolute scale exclusively).

  50. Frank K says:

    US:
    US counterparts/colleagues of the same age and position seem to be married with families in higher numbers. So my guess US is actually not that bad, for MC/UMC. At least when it comes to mid-west.

    I think that those who work for US multinationals, especially those high enough on the corporate ladder to get to travel on business, do tend to be married. These are the kind of men carousel riders like to “settle down” with, as Dalrock would say, once they tire of having sex with other (sexier) men (who have no interest in marrying their lady lovers). I’m sure that the letter writer in the OP is trying to find such a man and is panicking because she is unsuccessful and she knows the clock is ticking. She probably wants to have children and “retire” from employment, which does require a high income husband.

    That said, at my place of multinational place of employment we have our share of single men (many in their 30’s and even 40’s) and divorced men. Not all marrieds have children and those who do often have just one. We even had a “swinger”, a guy with an “open” marriage. We also have a trannie (bio male), who is mocked behind his back, even by the progressives.

    But I can believe you that things are worse where you are. I don’t know about all central and eastern European countries, but I know that Hungary offers financial incentives (as in hard, cold cash to pay for a large portion of a real estate purchase) to married couples who have at least 3 children, so there must be a serious problem with birth rates.

  51. @Dalrock

    There are three things going on. The women are being petty, complaining where they should be grateful. They are being bullies (threats of divorce if he doesn’t jump-to). And they are rubbing the letter writer’s (and Gottlieb’s) unmarried status in their faces.

    I agree.
    The View television program is probably the perfect example. What was previously a private kaffee klatsch knitting circle to complain, level threats at your husband out of earshot, make backhanded compliments, and “I told you so!” the hell out of your sisters is now out in the open – broadcasted for all women across the globe to listen in and indulge.

    It’s all so delicious and so fattening.
    With the added bonus to watch other women shaking their fists at the sky.
    A feeding frenzy for attention, sympathy and righteous indignation.
    I don’t even know how women could top this, it’s that magnificent.

    Not a very good advertisement for marriage or family though. And cohabitation, just forget it.

  52. I think there is a lot of female anger, frustration and depression out there:
    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/single-women-celebrating-weddings-baby-showers

    I’m not demanding that people generate less joy. Quite the opposite. Get married, have the babies. Register at Bloomies. All I am is left out. My life is left out of the list of viable celebrations. And 11 years of being left out while simultaneously being repeatedly asked to celebrate the life accomplishments of others is too much. It is just too much. In younger days I skipped weddings because I couldn’t financially afford them. Now I skip them because I can’t emotionally afford them.

    Check out the comment section. It’s pretty revealing about the common attitudes being held right now. Lots of career women with “the whatevs”.

  53. Otto says:

    @Novaseeker,

    IMHO, most men only have a three point scale: unattractive, pretty, and super-hot (or 3, 7, & 10).

  54. Pingback: Roundup | Eternity Matters

  55. Frank K says:

    I think there is a lot of female anger, frustration and depression out there:
    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/single-women-celebrating-weddings-baby-showers

    Gotta love how she’s called a Debbie Downer for not wanting to spend big money she doesn’t have celebrating people she doesn’t really care about.

  56. Frank K says:

    The View television program is probably the perfect example.

    It speaks volumes about how many women tune in to watch that kind of tripe.

    Not a very good advertisement for marriage or family though.

    Unfortunately men don’t watch it and instead are spoon fed that the former carousel riders are simply fabulous and they should hurry and wife one up before they’re all gone.

  57. thedeti says:

    Otto:

    No, most men have a binary system: (1) Would not bang in a million years, and (2) would bang right now.

  58. BillyS says:

    Most men here that use numbers have been very low on their scales. I have seen many women who looked reasonably attractive to me (getting close to 60) rated a 4 at best.

    I don’t see a lot of real thought going on, mostly just slamming women with the numbers.

    Deti is closer to the truth on this one.

  59. krakonos says:

    @Frank K

    I think that those who work for US multinationals, especially those high enough on the corporate ladder to get to travel on business, do tend to be married. These are the kind of men carousel riders like to “settle down” with, as Dalrock would say, once they tire of having sex with other (sexier) men (who have no interest in marrying their lady lovers).
    That may explain it. The reason why foreign companies are here is we are dirty cheap (for the output). So, no comfort salaries and retirement. It takes two incomes to finance family, SAHMs are extremely rare here. On the other hand, not just us but everyone is dirty cheap. So, there still are high relative differences in incomes.
    Maybe the difference is natural. As neither people nor communities or nations are the same. As an example – in Poland (outside capitals?) there is still uncommon/unwelcome to cohabit without marriage and divorce rates are (relatively) low. This creates a set of diverging pressures compared to common cohabitation, fathering children with multiple women and high divorce rates. Different pressures mean different outcomes especially at the fringes.

    We even had a “swinger”, a guy with an “open” marriage. We also have a trannie (bio male), who is mocked behind his back, even by the progressives.
    I can see it in US colleagues, too. No such thing here, even gays are hard to recognize. And we make brutal jokes on sexual harassment.

    Overall fertility will have ceased to be an issue in the foreseeable future – google (or duckduck) gypsies & Eastern Europe.

  60. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I think there is a lot of female anger, frustration and depression out there:
    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/single-women-celebrating-weddings-baby-showers

    She complains there are no comparable celebrations for single people. Single people have birthday parties, she says, but so does everyone else. But single people have no celebrations comparable to weddings, bridal showers, baby showers, etc. to celebrate singleness.

    It’s a ridiculous point. It’s like saying …

    * People with careers have celebrations when they receive raises, promotions, etc. But what about celebrating people who’ve been unemployed for 30 years? Where are their congratulatory parties?

    * Working actors receive Oscars, Emmys, and all sort of awards. But what about actors who’ve studied and gone to auditions for 30 years, but have never landed a role? Where are their awards?

    This woman doesn’t just not want to celebrate her married friends, which is fine. She doesn’t think that “we” (i.e., society as a whole) should celebrate married couples. It’s not fair to her, because she can’t share in it, and it makes her feel bad.

    I’ve never been married, and don’t enjoy being single. But it never occurred to me that society should shut down celebrations I can’t participate in.

  61. Lost Patrol says:

    I think there is a lot of female anger, frustration and depression out there:
    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/single-women-celebrating-weddings-baby-showers

    Shani Silver is the author. Much of her (I suppose paid) work is writing similar stuff, making it hard to know how much of it is simply pandering to a particular audience. Like when the cute waitress is really nice to you.

    https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/author/shani-silver

  62. Novaseeker says:

    Most men here that use numbers have been very low on their scales. I have seen many women who looked reasonably attractive to me (getting close to 60) rated a 4 at best.

    Most of the variance (which is normal … guys actually do disagree a fair amount as to which women fit where, and in particular there is a lot of variance as to how men assess women over 35) relates to one or more of: (1) local market being different (prettier women in their market than yours and vice versa) and (2) the observer’s relative attractiveness (i.e., a male 5 may find a female 6 more attractive than a male 7 does … most guys, despite what they think, are not perfectly objective when assessing women).

  63. Lost Patrol says:

    While deti kind of drives right through to the heart of the matter, a man’s take on a woman’s attractiveness is affected by many variables. The assessment can change with distance and exposure. With how much is left to the imagination, and how much is seen, heard, and even smelled by him during a personal encounter. “Chemistry” between two people is a real thing, with actual chemicals I’m told, but now I’m in over my head. I know when a woman smells real good though.

    Calling a number from a photo can be very different from seeing the same woman in person. Seeing her at a distance can be quite different from up close. She might raise or lower her allure by the way she walks, speaks, dresses, moves her hands, etc. A beauty queen can lose points fast if she keeps saying stupid things. A more plain Jane may enchant with her mannerisms. There’s a lot of moving parts to attraction.

    I had the hots for a girl once that upon closer inspection had breath like an ashtray from smoking a pack a day. In that era I was not deterred, but now I certainly would be so there is also an age-of-man factor involved in these cases.

    When the man is interested in a woman at more than an instantaneous, superficial level, her attractiveness becomes more of a package deal. A woman can be a very nice overall package without necessarily being what every man would acknowledge as a beauty.

  64. thedeti says:

    Men are the ones who have the binary assessment for women. For men, a woman is either “hell yes” or “hell no”.

    Women have a three-part assessment.

    1) Hell yes let’s have sex right now

    2) Yeah, sure, I guess, OK, as long as you’re bringing commitment and resources to which I get permanent access

    and

    3) No way not in a million years would I come within 20 feet of you. Sex with you will never ever ever EVER happen

    For women, most of the casual sex they have is (1). Most of the marriages are (2).

    Men always are at “hell yes” or “hell no” for anything having to do with women. For sex, marriage, or whatever, a woman must be at “hell yes” or she is blown out of the water.

    Hence, the problem we have in most marriages. Men ALWAYS marry at “hell yes”. Women almost always marry at “yeah, sure, I guess, OK, so long as I have permanent access to the commitment and resources”. The problem is the disparity in attraction levels.

  65. thedeti says:

    For men, sex is “want” or “don’t want”.

    For women, sex is “want”, “willing to”, or “don’t want”.

    Men will never ever EVER have sex with a woman they don’t want to have sex with. They can’t. They’re not physically capable of it. Men will have absolutely nothing to do with women they don’t want to have sex with.

    Women can be willing to have sex, for a while, with all kinds of men. Usually, a woman can grit her teeth and ratchet up enough resolve to have sex with an unattractive man, but he’s nice and has a job and she likes him OK, so long as he gives her exclusivity and access to his money (i.e. he pays for everything). These guys are the ones most women end up married to.

    Women would love it if they could marry the “hell yes” guys. But most of them can’t because all women want those guys, and there aren’t enough of those “hell yes” guys to go around. So most women settle for “yeah, sure, I guess, OK”.

    And of course, once a woman puts you in the “not in a million years” box, that is where you stay. Forever.

  66. Otto says:

    “No, most men have a binary system: (1) Would not bang in a million years, and (2) would bang right now.”

    Closer to: (1) hell no, (2) yes, and (3) hell yes.

  67. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    In contrast, TBayly on Twitter has begun posting #manup beatdowns on a daily basis.

    Yawn. It’s just about all he’s got in his tool kit now, so no surprise.

    But…isn’t it about time Tim was put in touch with Dennis Prager? Bayly’s old enough to still remember Ward Cleaver on TV, that’s a plus. PragerU temaking the “Ward Cleaver was a stud” vid with Tim Bayly’s added value would be hugely entertaining.

  68. PokeSalad says:

    I’ve never been married, and don’t enjoy being single. But it never occurred to me that society should shut down celebrations I can’t participate in.

    The feminist script is always a) infiltrate and corrupt from the inside, and if they can’t do that, b) destroy it outright.

  69. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    She might raise or lower her allure by the way she walks, speaks, dresses, moves her hands, etc.

    Example:
    Once knew a man who grew up in NYC. He really didn’t like the standard NYC way of speaking. He especially despised the Bronx Honk. He’d married an ordinary looking woman who was a Southern state. I guess a li’l drawl went a long way, y’all.

  70. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sheesh. Typo time.

    He’d married an ordinary looking woman who was from a Southern state.

    I’ve known men who liked big girls, but never one that wanted one the size of a state.

  71. SOL says:

    “Women have a three-part assessment.

    1) Hell yes let’s have sex right now

    2) Yeah, sure, I guess, OK, as long as you’re bringing commitment and resources to which I get permanent access

    and

    3) No way not in a million years would I come within 20 feet of you. Sex with you will never ever ever EVER happen”

    Let’s play MFK

  72. CSI says:

    Lori may claim she is often lonely without a husband, or that she devotes a lot of time and energy trying to find one. I don’t think she is sincere. She herself recommended “settling” for an average decent man, but this is something she could never bring herself to do, and even chose to have a child by sperm donor.

  73. Frank K says:

    That may explain it. The reason why foreign companies are here is we are dirty cheap (for the output).

    You don’t have to remind those of us who work for Corporate America that in many cases foreign workers work for a fraction of the pay, which is why we are pretty much always worried about losing our jobs.

    Most of us, unless we are in sales, rarely get to travel for the company. Those who do tend to be management and if you can get on that ladder it can be very rewarding as salaries rise quickly as you climb that ladder. A colleague once expressed to me why he wanted to get on the managerial track (as opposed to remaining an engineer). In his words: “once you get to a director level, that’s when the crazy money begins”. As an engineer/accountant/etc. your pay won’t even come close, even if you are a “Senior Principal Engineer” or even better a “Distingushed Fellow” (what a weird title). Fellows are extremely rare. Directors easily outnumber them by an order of magnitude or two in a multinational.

    Anyway, some nerdy guy who is lucky enough to get a management job that pays 200-300K dollars per year is the ideal beta bucks. She won’t have to work, will drive a luxury car, live in a McMansion, etc. Those who settle for an “individual contributor” (not a manager) will probably have to continue working, if she wants a small house, etc. Hence the resentment. Not to say that VPs and Directors don’t also get frivorced, but as some here will point out, the little lady sometimes understands that even with a generous alimony award her standard of living will drop and she probably won’t find another rich guy to marry. No more BMW or country club membership. She might even have to move into a smaller house. Plus if he’s doing well at the office, there could be even more money. BMW? How about an Aston Martin?

  74. CSI says:

    You’re right Frank K, its not enough to enable the wife to be a SAHM if she has to spend all her time at home looking after the kids and house. She’s going to wind up deeply resenting her husband, dreaming about how fun and relaxing it would be to have a full time job like him (even if she hated it before). But it should be different if he can earn enough to provide a part time nanny and cleaner so she can spend a lot of the day socializing and shopping. She’s still going to be resentful, but the resentment should be at a manageable level.

  75. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Woman prefers to spend time with husband rather than girlfriends: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/friends-keep-girls-nights-d-000000249.html

    I’m going to have to pass on your girls’ night — I’d rather hang out with my husband and kids. Sorry, not sorry.

    I feel so relieved to finally say it out loud. I know, it’s cool to complain about and put down our husbands. Ya know, girl power and all. Of course, there are definitely things he does that I’d like to vent about at times.

    But, given the option to hang out with my husband or you, I’ll always pick him.

    That’s why I agreed to marry him, for Pete’s sake! I didn’t choose him based solely on his looks (they helped, though). This might seem crazy, but I actually enjoy my husband’s company. I enjoy hearing about his day and telling him about mine. I look forward to chatting with him about TV show predictions and discussing current events. My absolute favorite thing to do is to fill him in on all of the crazy and hysterical things our kids have said that day.

    At the risk of sounding cliché, he is my best friend. And I’m not going to be made to feel ashamed of this any longer.

    The thing is, my husband works a lot. …

  76. David Kessel says:

    A wonderful post- do not forget the men who read your blog and are in the same place- many will never have romance, sex or a family as a result of being rejected in the modern church climate- we have deep grief and many now have passed beyond the age of no return and face care or dying at the hands of strangers

  77. DrTorch says:

    I’m disappointed that neither one of them recommended that their married friends break a several china plates in front of their husbands to get their attention.

    Or perhaps shoot a gun aimed at their husband’s feet.

    These women are clearly not good sources of advice.

  78. CK says:

    krakonos: “There are no adverse economic effects – in terms some claiming unattached (MGTOW) males (in such high numbers) will cease working hard and impact economy. Actually, they are natural hard workers, so they work as hard or even harder than married men.”
    You sure about that?
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/forfeiting-the-patriarchal-dividend/

  79. Nowitall says:

    Nothing easier than to shut up a friendnuisance like this. “Oh, but you have a perfectly easy solution, why don´t you get single, then? That´s a half day´s job to let the bastard go and after that you´ll have all the free time in the world.”

  80. scientivore says:

    @Unicycle

    Any complaints now by the wife or friends is met with a change of subject or leaving the vicinity. I have not found if there is a better way.

    There is a very flexible response in “Hashtag FirstWorldProblems.” You can modulate the delivery for everything from “gently-edgy nice guy” to “contemptuous douchebag,” depending on the sensitivity of your interlocutor (e.g. “thoughtlessly-solipsistic nice girl” to “hard-eyed strumpet”).

    @Red Pill Latecomer

    Anyone ever see Marty? It was a TV play in the 1953 (below), and a move in the 1960s. It’s about settling.

    Maybe? I remember an old movie where they’re at a dance and the guy says, “You’re not such a dog,” and the remarkable thing about her reaction is that there isn’t one; she continues to look pleased.

  81. info says:

    “The feminist script is always a) infiltrate and corrupt from the inside, and if they can’t do that, b) destroy it outright.”

    Of course. Directed by Satan. His modus operandi.

  82. feministhater says:

    A wonderful post- do not forget the men who read your blog and are in the same place- many will never have romance, sex or a family as a result of being rejected in the modern church climate- we have deep grief and many now have passed beyond the age of no return and face care or dying at the hands of strangers.

    No doubt about it. There is no fixing it. At least for me the grief has finally past. The dying part I have accepted too. If not for God’s grace I would still be within the howling madness rather than a mere bystander marveling and laughing at the destruction being wrought.

    Just in the interest of fairness. Marriage in no way insures having care or dying among loved ones – a true testament to the full, complete and powerful destruction that feminism has dealt.

  83. Swanny River says:

    FH, too true, too true (your last paragraph about dying among loved ones). It probably raises the odds, but I would think less than people would guess.

  84. Opus says:

    I am afraid I do not follow Otto. Is Otto saying that in terms of attractiveness there is not a Bell Curve?- with most women crowding at the centre a small percentage somewhat hotter and a small percentage somewhat lower. I’d estimate it this way thet about 66% are somewhere in the middle. This leaves about seventeen per cent hot and seventeen per cent ugly. Americans are not intrinsically (when young) physically unattractive.

  85. Oscar says:

    @ Novaseeker

    Yeah that just opens the box about whether the scale is relative or absolute.

    It’s definitely relative, otherwise “desert queens” would not exist, and (while on my 4th deployment) I assure you that they do, in fact, exist.

  86. krakonos says:

    @CK

    My point was a bit different. Being without a partner and childless has not made them stop working or even relax. As I can see at work, they are more prone to serve longer/irregular hours and go on business trips as married do not have time for this. Essentially more productive. So, that you cannot find a partner does not make you start slacking.
    My impression on this is it has something to do with personality, those left out are natural hard-workers, more introverted and trustworthy.

    On the other hand being a slacker does not prevent you from having children out of wedlock (we have 50%+ illegitimacy and low number of intact families).

    So, you will rather see a decline of economy in the long term (decades) by a combination of childlessness or low number of children* of those more intelligent and hard-working.

    * For those having children, the norm is rather one child later in life.

  87. BillyS says:

    Just in the interest of fairness. Marriage in no way insures having care or dying among loved ones – a true testament to the full, complete and powerful destruction that feminism has dealt.

    This is the worse part in my view. A strong reason I see to not go the full MGTOW route is because you can’t be sure of having anyone to care for you when you can’t do so for yourself. Just having money can’t promise that, since the ones who will steal that money come out of the woodwork when you become incompetent to do so.

    That said, I did the right things to have long-term family. I married relatively young (mid 20s), adopted children since they weren’t coming otherwise, was faithful, etc. I am now fairly close to retirement and I have no one. My immediate family (parents and 1 sister) are gone, the sister because of her own stupidity (drug use) and I only have a limited connection with one adopted son. (He does what he can, but we are not the “forever family” that adoption is often sold with.)

    I did all this as a reasonably faithful Christian. And don’t go telling me it would have been better if I was still in the Roman Catholic Church of my youth or the similar Orthodox Church. I am on my own and really struggling to find solid connections.

    I am not as harsh as FH, but I definitely see why he is where he is coming from. Things are not good at all and no good route exists.

    Minor rant on surrogacy: That is just as bad as everything else. Intentionally a child without one sex is a moral crime and will not provide all the claimed benefits. Both sexes play a strong role in forming a proper adult, even though we have totally botched that today. Doing this on purpose won’t solve enough problems to make up for its shortcomings.

  88. Charles B says:

    @Deti, the thing that hurt the most about the red pill was realizing that women have the 2 tiers for who they will fuck, and that I’m in her tier 2. That was (and still is) a painful piece of knowledge.

  89. BillyS says:

    Charles,

    Many men could live with being in the second tier if they could get faithfulness for it. Instead they only get used. The top men use women and then women use the remaining men.

    That is not sustainable.

  90. thedeti says:

    Charles B:

    At various points in my life I’ve been both guys, albeit to different women. I’ve been Mr. Hell Yes, and more often, I’ve been Mr. Yeah, sure, ok, I guess. With Mrs. deti I could have handled being Mr. Yeah Sure OK I Guess for the rest of my life if she had not been so nasty about it for so long. But she was, and it blew up, and it has taken years to put back together.

  91. thedeti says:

    Most men are Tier 2. Most men are “Yeah, Sure, OK, I Guess”. Most men will never be “Hell Yes”. Or, more to the point, it’s very hard for most men to find a woman for whom he is “Hell Yes”. It can be done, but almost all the time, when you’re “Hell Yes” you don’t stay “Hell Yes”.

    Most women today are marrying “Yeah, Sure, OK, I Guess”. Because that’s what most men are. And that’s what most women can attract for marriage.

    Most women can attract “Hell Yes” for sex, but that’s pretty much it.

    The dirty little secret is that all most men will ever be is “Yeah, Sure, OK, I Guess”. Most men simply cannot get women for much of anything unless they go all in and throw all their commitment and resources on the table. And that’s because most men just don’t do it for most women.

    It’s always been this way, to some extent. It was OK for a while, because “Yeah, Sure, OK, I Guess” was all most women could ever expect. That all changed when we made it OK for women to have as much sex as they want during their teens and 20s with a string of “Hell Yes” men.

  92. Novaseeker says:

    Charles —

    At least you aren’t in Tier 3. Tier 3 is the growing Tier now. Tier 1 is shrinking. Tier 2 is also shrinking for the reasons Dalrock has pointed out many times. Growth market today is Tier 3.

  93. Otto says:

    OT, but in the Dalrock ballpary. This Match.com commercial that they are currently running on ad supported streaming services.

    Courtney: “I’m not a game player; I like nice guys.”

  94. CSI says:

    @Krakanos “My point was a bit different. Being without a partner and childless has not made them stop working or even relax.”

    I think you’re seeing a selection bias. The men who would only put in the bare minimum, whether married or unmarried, simply wouldn’t be selected for your company.

  95. thedeti says:

    Otto:

    Re the Match.com commercial: My favorite part was the late 20s guy posing with the cat while affecting this now-ubiquitous soyboy effeminate open mouth posture.

    This has become the male version of duckface. I really wish women would stop with the duckface poses. And I really wish men would stop with the open mouth soyboy low-T effeminate face.

    Please. Everyone. Just stop.

  96. The genius of the Old Patriarchy is that it simultaneously lowered the status of the average woman relative to the average man and forced women to understand that marriage is a life-long sexual relationship so they better choose wisely. That’s why Libertarians like Anon are useful idiots. Libertarians support egalitarianism and support the ability of women to pull out of marriage via no fault divorce laws (to say nothing of the near universal libertarian support for marriage rape laws).

  97. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Courtney: “I’m not a game player; I like nice guys.”

    “Courtney” is probably an actress, not an actual Match.com user.

    However, if she were on Match.com, she’d get 100s, maybe over 1,000, invites within a few days. From men in their 20s to 40s, and maybe even 50s. She’d sift through them all, feeling great about all the attention, but disappointed that so many of the men were duds. Even the younger men look so … eh.

    She might go on a few dates. Taken to the theater, flowers, amusement parks, concerts. Some men offer to fly her to exotic places for the weekend.

    But her profile is still up, and another 1,000 invites have arrived in the next week. So many choices! How to choose? Thank God she still has plenty of time. Another decade before she’s ready to settle down.

  98. Anon says:

    Il Deploro lied :

    That’s why Libertarians like Anon are useful idiots. Libertarians support egalitarianism and support the ability of women to pull out of marriage via no fault divorce laws (to say nothing of the near universal libertarian support for marriage rape laws).

    False. The fact that you misrepresent my position to completely is evidence of how catastrophically your Gilligan-cuckservative posturing has failed.

    ‘No fault divorce’ is only a tiny part of the problem. The main problem is asset division, which cuckservatives like you created.

    Plus, only a complete idiot fails to see that the current misandric society and government is a function of government being too large, not too small. Government was very small before 1913. Read a book, sheesh.

    The vast majority of all government spending is a transfer from men to women. 70-80%. Again, even people who are not red pill know this much.

    You still think that being a hybrid between a Gilligan and a cartoonish cuckservative is the answer, despite how many people have explained to you that punishing men is not the way to get women to behave, and punishing men is not the way to reduce abortions.

    Plus, you dodged my point about sperm banks with great cowardice, mainly because you don’t know how to cartoonishly whiteknight around that issue.

  99. Ray6777 says:

    The dating sites have to keep those “nice guys” paying. It has to be common knowledge by now that dating sites are a depressing waste of time for most guys.

  100. BillyS says:

    You are wrong Anon. No fault divorce is the core problem. Women would care a lot more for advancing their marriages if an easy out was not available.

    Asset distribution on split up is an issue, but the no-fault part is the core problem.

  101. Anon says:

    BillyS,

    You are not thinking.

    There would be very few divorces, even if the law is ‘no fault’, if the woman could not financially profit from divorce. They would not leave if they have to pay their own way.

    ‘No fault’ is wrong in principle, but it is a very small contributor to the entirety of the problem. New York State didn’t have ‘no fault’ until 2012 or something, but there was still no shortage of divorces, and women living high on the ex-husband’s money, over there.

  102. @Anon

    False. The fact that you misrepresent my position to completely is evidence of how catastrophically your Gilligan-cuckservative posturing has failed.

    I didn’t misrepresent anything, I struck a nerve.

    You’re also too stupid to realize that I generally agree with you in principle on how much modern policy contributes to the problem. Unlike you, though, I take it to its philosophical roots which are the Classical Liberal emancipation of the individual from the bonds of authority and nature.

  103. Plus, you dodged my point about sperm banks with great cowardice, mainly because you don’t know how to cartoonishly whiteknight around that issue.

    I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I would criminalize IVF and sperk banks.

  104. Marriage rape laws, community property laws, no fault divorce laws, legalized contraception and abortion all work hand in hand to make things what they are. They all reinforce each other to create an environment inimical to traditional marriage. Contra Anon, Libertarians everywhere do celebrate all of these things as advancements in individual freedom, which to them is always a good unto itself no matter the externalities.

  105. BillyS says:

    Anon, not fewer enough. You are also ignore the disincentive for a woman to really work to build her marriage when she can leave if she decides it isn’t working out.

    Think Carly Simon’s “Its Too Late Baby” song. That had nothing to do with leaving for cash and prizes.

    I am sure potential prizes for my exwife led to the exact timing of her filing for divorce, but it would have come soon no matter what, since she wanted to take care of her mom and wanted to get away from me because she didn’t want an obligation to anyone else. The little she got when we split was minor and not enough to drive her actions. Knowing she had an out allowed her to never seek to build me and the marriage up, unlike past generations, such as that of even my grandmother.

  106. Anon says:

    Il Deploro,

    I didn’t misrepresent anything, I struck a nerve.

    No, you just displayed cuckserva-Gilligan proclivities, as many others have pointed out.

    What is funny is that you actually seem fine with replacing the Traditional Church with the state, yet imagine that the state does not get twisted into serving womens’ ends.

    but I would criminalize IVF and sperk banks.

    In what fantasy world would that remotely pass? Plus, what about all the legit uses of IVF (married couples) that you are denying?

    Libertarians everywhere do celebrate all of these things as advancements in individual freedom,

    No they don’t. They say there should be no such laws.

    It is cuckservative Gilligans like you that don’t realize that you are just big government lefto-feminists.

    Do engage in more projection for our entertainment.

  107. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Krakonos, not trying to offend you here but………

    I am going to go on a tangent and guess you are in Czech Republic, right? You said only 3% are regular churchgoers and the culture is quickly deteriorating there, so that sounds like Czech Republic (CZ). CZ people are the most atheistic in all of Europe (72% Atheist was last survey I saw) and with legal widespread prostitution, drug legalization, legal abortions, and invasion-like immigration of desperate Western men looking for a woman in CZ have completely ruined the country. CZ is a preview of what all FSU countries will be like in 10-15 years if the EU/Western influence continues to spread, and culture continues to deteriorate and give way to globalist thinking.

    Now, where you are totally wrong: You cannot simply lump up all of Central and Eastern Europe, even though they are FSU (Former Soviet Union) countries all into one ball of yarn. It does not work like that in the FSU. Lithuania and Latvia are literally right next to each other, share similar roots and histories pre-20th Century and yet are literally completely different countries culturally, different languages, and totally different quality of people. While the Lithuanians are intelligent, productive, amazing people, the Latvians are scammers, there is tons of thievery, and the country is much worse than its next door neighbor. The same can be said here of Brazil, Venezuela, and Colombia, all Latin countries sharing borders but totally different worlds culturally, economically, the women act/look different, religious values, food is different, so forth.

    With that said, you cannot compare a “Germanized” (Westernized) countries of for example Poland and CZ with the likes of Belarus, Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia, or Ukraine or even modernized Russia. You are talking different planets, not different countries. That is like comparing Sudan and Japan because names sound alike. Or comparing Italy and Spain, for instance because they are near each other in Mediterranean. Or France and Portugal, just because they are Latin Romance languages and near each other. It does not work this way.

    Poland is by most accounts a formerly-conservative nation, an extremely conservative country with unbelievably strong traditional Catholic roots, but that is quickly changing and going away. Poland is inching its way towards govt-funded widely available abortions, gay marriage, and decline in religious attendance (and yet is still fairly conservative when compared to its neighbors) while CZ has already been there almost a decade before. CZ/Czech Republic is a leftist country, filled with hardliner feminist crap and the women are whoreish to levels I have seen in Lost Angeles or NYC standards. CZ women are known for prostituting themselves and for doing pornmovies for the lowest buck. They are raise din atheism and morals/right and wrong are very subjective and almost irrelevant.

    At this time, Ukraine and Belarus are STILL fairly conservative when compared to Central EU countries like CZ or Germany or even Poland. Major “international cities” in Ukraine and Russia like Kiev and Moscow are evermore like Western cities, except less feminist then any Western city. Comparing Kiev’s feminists to feminists in Berlin or NY City is like night and day.

    Even in Kiev or Moscow, feminists in Ukraine and Russia wear make-up high-heels and are always looking for a boyfriend/husband. Feminists in Berlin or New York they are protesting “Racism” or some imaginary evil while demanding open borders while their 300 pound bellies lump-out of their skin-tight crop-tops. Feminists in Iran or Saudi Arabia still wear burkas because of the crazy situation in these countries… it is all cultural and based on local laws.

    Most “feminists” you meet in Kiev would pass for ultra-feminine girls in NY, you would not even know they are feminists unless you prodded them with questions because they look fantastic. The extremely few radical feminists in Kiev are so obvious and are looked at as dysfunctional or social degenerates that are not worth a second look by men or other women. “Normal feminists”, if there is such a thing, seem to think feminism is about reducing prostitution in Ukraine or ending ACTUAL sexual harassment at workplace (i.e. Harvey Weinstein-type bosses demands sex for a job type thing), which is real and rampant in places like Ukraine and Russia. They do not get that feminism in The West is about obesity, shaved heads, open borders to “Turkish r@pists” (a real thing in Ukraine), and hating men. When I tell locals here what Western Feminism is, they think I am joking or exaggerating until I show them photos of Rosie O’Donnell or Lena Dunham. I cannot believe I event have to mention this, but feminism is not the same thing outside cucked Western countries. Feminism in Iran is being able to go outside without a burka without being beaten by the morality police. In Ukraine it is about bosses almost physically forcing women for sex to keep a job, which is wrong and disgusting.

    Desperate FSU women…. come on guys. If we were talking shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union in late 1980s/early 1990s, then yes, these women were truly desperate. There were food shortages, street brawls over basic supplies, elderly people losing their life savings, suicides, and more. It was chaos. It was worst than 1930s Great Depression America. But today, these countries have stabilized, their economies have improved drastically, and the countries that joined EU got some benefits (financially) early on, just as we saw happen to East Germany post 1989. But “desperate” is not a word that can or should be used today about FSU countries.

    Desperate were girls in Greece after their economic collapse and debt crisis a couple years back, selling themselves for 6 Euros on the street to be able to afford a McDonald’s combo meal. That type of desperation has been gone from FSU countries since the early 2000s. Don’t get me wrong, most FSU countries are still very poor (save for Baltic ones), but the desperation for food type thing we saw in early 1990s is long, long gone. Do not expect women to come to you

    As for women in FSU, understand this – women are women in every country in the world. They are malleable, they are like water. They change depending on the container they are put in. RooshV and Rollo have discussed this at length “True Nature of Women” article by Roosh and the numerous articles about Solipsism and Hypergamy. Understand a woman’s true nature and every woman in the planet suddenly makes sense.

    No (repeat: NO), FSU is not a panacea to fix all our women problems. Philippines is not that solution either. Neither is Colombia or Argentina. Or whatever country. The legal risks of importing a foreign woman are the exact same as marrying a local woman. Ad women are women, they are same types of human being found anywhere, save cultural and aesthetic differences.

    The world has become globalized due to internet and global trade. America, unfortunately, spreads sh!t culture with its TV shows about the Kardashians, toxic music from Katy Perry-types, and politically-charged movies that promote degenerate lifestyles. The trend is for women everywhere, in time, to attempt to mirror feminist leftist culture, which is what the US and Western media spoon-feeds to every other country almost for free. In time, this is going to take every country’s culture and their women in a downhill trajectory everywhere. Not even Islamic countries will escape this trend in time. A globalist govt is almost inevitable in a decade or so, unless drastic populist cooperatives make major moves around the world (i.e. more Trumps, more Brexits, etc).

    Ultimately, the fix, in time, will be to form small Christian communities, like they did all other Soviet world during Communism, where kids grow up religious and marry each other and worship in smaller groups. These Christian “underground” communities existed everywhere, even at the heart of Communism in Moscow for over 70 years and flourished. This will likely be the new model going forward, as we see less religious freedom around the world, especially in the West, where the “tolerant left”, continues to attack Christianity as “the oppressors” and with its endless indoctrination of our kids through schools, media, colleges, and entertainment.

    By the way, unlike what you hear in Western media, Russia is going through a “melancholy phase” where people openly lament the “materialism” of so many Russian Millennial women today in their country and the need to go back to churches and revive their Russian traditions and culture. Birth rates in Russia are UP, not down, and churches are being built and improved upon by “the evil” Putin. When you compare him to Saint Macron of France or “Mother Theresa” Merkel, who have opened the EU Borders to millions of violent Muslim invaders to attack churches and (likely) burn down Notre Dame, evil Putin is spending a lot of money to re-build churches, construct new cathedrals across Russia, and encourage his people to have kids, attend church, and the youth to focus on sports, fitness, and avoid alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes. I guess it is easy to see which leaders love their own people and which one is seeking their destruction.

    Anyway, bottom line here: For you to say women in a feminist country like Germany, UK or CZ are just as bad as the women in Eastern Ukraine or Belarus… brother, I do not know what to tell you. You need to come out to Ukraine, check out Dnipro or Nikolaev or even a “Westernized” city like Kiev and see for yourself. Avoid Kiev and Odessa, since these two cities are light-years ahead of the rest of Ukraine in terms of trying to imitate the EU or American women. (groan) Or take a trip to Minsk and see for yourself.

    Are the women there perfect? Oh hell no. Much more religious than in Western Europe or CZ or Germany and infinitely more feminine and less feminist? Yes all day long. I saw young women going to church in Ukraine by themselves to say prayers and a friend sent me a video of a church service in Belarus, lots of young people. Do they understand and get deep into Christianity as we do, with strong Biblical principles, study, and so forth? No, but they follow the general traditions of the faith and can be taught further. The Orthodox church there was repressed violently for over 70 years, so they have much work to do in Biblical small groups and that type thing.

    Once again, comparing all of FSU to (what I assume) is your native Czech Republic, just because these were all prisoner countries of the Soviet evil empire and due to their geographic proximity is simply absurd. Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Polish, Czech, Lithuanian, Estonia, Latvian, and German women may look a little alike to untrained eyes but they are totally different from each other.

    Please be mindful of what you are saying when lumping all FSU countries into one thing. You are bound to confuse or mislead people. It just isn’t the case.

  108. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Il Deplorevolissimo, it is funny you mentioned insane things like “marriage rape laws, community property laws, no fault divorce laws, legalized contraception and abortion”. In Ukraine, many girls end up pregnant because they are embarrassed about going to store to get birth control pills. Some end up having abortions, which is worse than taking birth control, of course. But that is culture here – most girls feel embarrassed to go buy birth control pills. Must be that supposed “feminism” I keep hearing about ’round here. lol

    When you see moms here, the girls pushing strollers seem very proud, nothing like the dying West where you can go into a major German, British, French or even American city and not see a single Western child anywhere for days in a stroller. It is like an honor to have a beautiful child in a stroller here, even better when you get to be out with child’s dad on weekend. You see it all over the place. The women are proud to be out with their baby’s daddies.

    Child support here is very low and I mean barely 1/6th of a guys post-tax salary. It is not even enough to get food for kid, which is another end of the extreme. Alimony is non-existent. One risk exists, however: if you get married, have a kid, and then divorces, if you own property, 1/2 of property value has to be put in child’s name to secure child’s future. That sucks, but not like woman steals your house completely and brings men over for bangs, like in American divorce. I am not sure about Ukraine laws on DNA tests revealing non-paternity of child, but will try find out and will post.

    Here in Ukraine, false-rape culture is virtually non-existent. Girl gets drunk and willingly goes and bangs some guy and next day regrets it and call cops… first thing the Militcia (local police) will ask “if you never met this man, why did you go to his apartment soon after meeting him?” Then they will ask “why did you get drunk alone? Where are your friends not to allow you to go home with some stranger man? Why did you go out to get drunk alone?”

    This is what Americans used to call “personal responsibility”. But it is non-applicable to Western women in grounds of “blaming the victim”. In Ukraine, most women are afraid to go out at night with some guy outside public places because they are responsible for their own safety.

    Imagine that! Women being told they need to care for their own safety! Sexism! Misogyny! Hate! 🙂

    Libertarianism is a failed ideology in an age where corporations run un-accountable global monopolies like Google, FB, Twitter, and others. Wanna see Libertarianism in action, learn about the late 1880s during the “Robber Baron” era and see what Libertarianism looks like in practice. It was misery for everyone except less than 0.1% of the population. Or the pre-Great Depression period where scammers like the Kennedy family created false corporations and sold stock to unsuspecting good people in stock exchanges (before the SEC – something Libertarians hate) and then “went bust” and stole people’s money. That is Libertarianism at its best, the way it is supposed to work. Or the Weimar Republic in the 1930s Germany, a lovely libertarian experiment. Or Amsterdam today, an open-borders, everything-goes mess of drugs, hookers, mass immigration, open-borders, permissive behavior, low-religious adherence, and ever-growing suicide rate in the kingdom. Netherlands is a Libertarian society at its core, literally anything goes and then you have total chaos. Just come to Amsterdam or Rotterdam, you lamost never see a single Dutch anywhere, it is all foreigners. Libertarianism always ends in disaster.

  109. feministhater says:

    God’s power at work. Have a look.

  110. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Wanna see God changing hearts and minds? RooshV (yes, THAT Roosh) has converted to Orthodox Christianity. He is so serious, he is barring hook-up strategy discussions from his forum/chat and is UN-publishiong many of his PUA books. That is his bread and butter and he is pulling all his books out of the market.

    https://www.rooshv.com/i-have-unpublished-11-of-my-books

    If that is not God changing hearts, don’t know what to tell ya.

  111. Anon

    No they don’t. They say there should be no such laws.

    Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s rain. I used to be a regular reader of Reason, Lew Rockwell, etc. I know damn well you’re full of shit on this.

  112. purge187 says:

    “RooshV (yes, THAT Roosh) has converted to Orthodox Christianity.”

    He’s reached that beloved “Ecclesiastes moment” where you ask yourself if there’s more to life.

  113. sipcode says:

    “Draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you” James 4:8. There is a definite order to this. While Christ first loved us, His bride must act first, making herself ready. There is an order in marriage: while the husband first loves his bride, she must make herself ready; she must draw nigh to him …then he will draw nigh to her.

    The church preaches the big, bold, ongoing God damned lie that the husband must prep himself first, that the husband has to change first so that the wife can change. Fucking bullshit, you shepherds of the church: go to Hell if you insist, go to your father Satan, but stop trying to take me and my house with you.

    And again, there is an order to God’s ways: “But, seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness [His ways], and all these things [you need] shall be added unto you” Matt 6:33. His bride first submits to His ways, and then He acts. And so the woman submits to the man and his ways, and then he acts.

    God is waiting for our soft heart. And so a husband of his bride [Prov 31:11].

  114. krakonos says:

    @Red Pill Christianity

    I have never claimed to speak for SFU. I just described situation in my country in settings I live in. Nothing less, nothing more (and I also mentioned Poland for comparison – my experiences from Poland a re more than a decade old though). If someone has interpreted my comments wrong way, OK, might be my fault for not being specific enough.

    Yes, you have correctly identified my native country – easy task for someone with background knowledge of that region. You are also correct for it’s characteristics.

  115. Anon says:

    Il Deploro squeaked :

    I used to be a regular reader of Reason, Lew Rockwell, etc.

    er…. I am not Lew Rockwell. I hope you realize that.

    What is funny is that I never make a big deal about being a ‘Libertarian’ or anything. It is just that cuckserva-Gilligans like you are so obsessed with your worship of Big Government and a belief that it would somehow not be female-centric, that you see anyone to the right of Marx as a ‘Libertarian’.

    Your worship of Big Government as a hammer that your cuckservative anvil (and as a religion substitute) gladly reveals your innate Gleichschaltung urges (look up what that word means).

    Even purple pill people know that there is no solution to state-backed misandry without a massive shrinkage in government.

  116. Anon says:

    RPL,

    In Ukraine, many girls end up pregnant because they are embarrassed about going to store to get birth control pills.

    Can they get it OTC without prescription? If so, why not order it online?

    If such online pharmacies don’t exist in the Ukraine, that appears to be a huge business opportunity.

  117. Red Pill Christianity says:

    Anon: sorry this is late reply, I extended my Ukraine stay 2 more weeks and finally got back home. Gonna see if I can find a webhost service that will not de-platform/ban my site for having “controversial” Christian discussions.

    As for girls in Ukraine being ashamed of going for birth control (it is a compliment to calls omen a “girl” here since that gives the idea of youthfulness and lack of feminist “outrage culture” make sit acceptable), this is a phenomenon more common in smaller cities and rural Ukraine (like Zythomir Oblast, for instance). The new circus-educated President elected by George Soros is pushing full-throttle gov’t funded abortions at anytime, no questions asked/no limits, and other leftist agenda, so I expect things here will get much worse the next few years, as Ukraine foolishly attempts to join the EU, and God-forbid for Ukraine’s own sake, tries to join NATO and ends up fully-invaded by Russia while Western countries look on and protest maniacally at the UN. The only good news from this recent election in Ukraine is that the Clown-President is pushing to make birth control more available, which is probably the only same policy he has.

    The other good news i many and I mean many Ukrainian women demand “her man” (no word for boyfriend there!) wear a condom. There are some nuisance about this generalization about women demanding her man wears a condom, but this is something that has become much more common in Ukraine today, even in small/rural areas. Better that then STDs and an abortion, of course.

    Krakonos:

    I did not mean to insult you, friend. But I wanted to clarify that Eastern Europe and even more so, Central Europe, even though it is a region with similar culture and shared history, each country is a world of its own. Many small countries that are totally different and that gets confusing to many Americans, where we live in a massive country that is mostly culturally-alike. Most Americans have never been to Central-Eastern European region, so I needed to clarify. 🙂 No offense to you, I appreciate you point of view.

    Glad I correctly figured you were from CZ (Czech Republic). I think the women in your country are very pretty with a Germanic-Slavic mix and I met some CZ women in the late 1990s and they were stunning, but culturally were very left and even then you could just see the rise of Feminism thanks to German influence and the EU. But as you said, the country has very low values, low Church attendance, and very bad morals for most people. I think also mass tourism of desperate foreign men have created an “inflated ego” to the CZ women and had an effect of making the women there have absurd expectations and un-realistic view of life. They are very demanding women now.

    Can I suggest you take a trip to smaller cities in Ukraine and Belarus if you are seeking a wife and want an European-type woman? I know the CZ marriage market to a Christian woman is very bad. I would avoid Russian women, a lot of problems there these days. Ukraine and Belarus are much more “Conservative” in the way we understand it in The West compared to the Russian women.

    I am glad to be back in my country from Ukraine. Happy to be home, I love the USA, but I hate our divorce and family laws and the entitled mentality of our women. It is also very sad to see women who would be pretty and “marriage material” become fat and alcoholic, we have a lot of that in my country, even in church women, sadly.

    Glad to hear from you .Please keep posting about Central Europe, we rarely get nay news form there these days.

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