The “no marriage proposals” canard.

During the discussion of The season of singleness commenter innocentbystanderboston (IBB) made a fairly common argument, that women like Wendy Griffith and Allyson Rowe didn’t delay marriage in pursuit of feminist goals, but instead were forced to pursue feminist goals in their youth because they had no suitable marriage proposals:

If a medical doctor asked Wendy Griffith to marry her when she was 20, she would have said yes. So would Allyson Rowe. So would any of them. But they had no offers SO (to keep their “pride”) they bullshit us (and bullshit themselves) and make youtubes telling us about how they weren’t really looking or they were trying to find themselves to be better Christians or what-not. Its all a lie. Now we can say that “prideful lie” was the result of the feminist imperative and I would agree with you Dalrock, but its still a lie. They were looking. They were just never picked by anyone that was (in their minds) worthy of them. That is the red pill truth gentlemen.

This is technically true, in a No True Scotsman sort of way.  Had their favorite rockstar walked out of the TV during a music video and suddenly proposed to them, they might have said yes.  And even if they said no, this would mean the man (or the moment) simply wasn’t magical enough.

But while technically true, this framing misses the point.  Not only does this framing overlook the woman’s responsibility not to price herself out of the marriage market (if she is serious about marriage), but it also has a false embedded assumption about the very nature and context of marriage proposals.  While it is true that social convention strongly states that the man should be the one to formally propose marriage, it is also true that it is foolish for a man to go around proposing to women he doesn’t already know want to marry him.  This is the reason the rejected stadium marriage proposal hoaxes are so compelling.  The audience just knows she will say yes, because if he’s asking surely she must have already made her desire to get married unmistakably clear.  So when the punchline comes and she says no, the audience is aghast, every time.

Another more subtle problem with this frame is the embedded assumption that Christianity requires that men pursue women for marriage.  This is another case of mistaking what we call chivalry (courtly love) for Christianity.  In the courtly love model the man must boldly declare his romantic intentions and win the heart of his lady fair.  Her job is to sit pretty and judge the performance, both during courtship and throughout marriage.  This isn’t a biblical model, but because we can’t distinguish between Christianity and a twelfth century parody of Christianity we refuse to see it.  In her videos Rowe repeats Griffith’s claim that women are a prize to be won, and she backs this up with an appeal to Proverbs 18:22 (ESV):

He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord.

She offers this as irrefutable proof that the courtly love model is the biblical model.  But this is an incredible stretch, especially if you weigh it against the Book of Ruth.  Ruth subtly and not so subtly pursued Boaz for marriage, even though one might argue he is the one who formally proposed.  This is true as well for Esther, the only other woman in the Bible to have a book named after her*.

Lastly, consider one more assumption nested in this frame.  The assumption is that Griffith and Rowe failed because men failed.  But which two men are responsible for Griffith’s and Rowe’s failure to marry in their youth?  What we don’t see is a movement by the most desirable prospective husbands complaining that they were never able to marry.  Certainly one didn’t exist 10 years ago when Rowe was in her early twenties, or 30 years ago when Griffith was in her early twenties.  IBB’s hypothetical marriage minded dreamboats surely were not kept away from marriage.  Desirable men who want to marry aren’t becoming the male equivalent of old maids.  So the perfect men IBB and so many others want to blame for Griffith and Rowe failing to marry in their youth in all likelyhood succeeded in marrying.  This frame blames men who succeed in marrying for the women who fail at it.  This is nuts.

Related:

*Unlike Ruth, some would argue that Esther isn’t presented as a role model.  I’m not convinced of this, but clearly both women were in atypical situations.  However, both women clearly pursued their eventual husbands, and as a result of doing so truly wonderful things came to pass.  In the case of Esther the Jews were saved from persecution.   In the case of Ruth, she went from being a childless widow to the grandmother of King David, from whose lineage Christ would ultimately come.

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This entry was posted in Allyson Rowe, Chivalry, Courtly Love, Finding a Spouse, Marriage, Rationalization Hamster, Traditional Conservatives, Turning a blind eye, Ugly Feminists, Weak men screwing feminism up, Wendy Griffith. Bookmark the permalink.

243 Responses to The “no marriage proposals” canard.

  1. John Williams says:

    Q: Where did all the good men go?

    A: They married all the good women.

  2. The Question says:

    “Another more subtle problem with this frame is the embedded assumption that Christianity requires that men pursue women for marriage.”

    It’s clear in the Bible it was the fathers who selected husbands for their daughters and wives for their sons. Ruth was an exception because she was a Moabite in a foreign country and she lived with her dead husband’s mother.

    Consider in Genesis Abraham asks a servant to leave the region and go find a wife for his son Isaac. He made him swear that he would not get Isaac a wife from the people around them, he was that insistent he not marry those women. The nerve of him to have standards! How dare he “judge” them! Isaac needed to man up and marry those pagan women!

  3. Joe says:

    I heard “season of singlness” stuff back in the 80’s.

    I never heard Guys use this term. Only girls.

  4. I know I am using a bad equivalent but it reminds me of the girls I knew in school that would say “no one asked me to prom so I’m not going” but the irony is that they would say that in front of two guys that had asked them. The term should have been “no one worthy asked me”.

  5. Nathan Bruno says:

    It looks like some mid-level person at The Boundless reads your website, because they just recycled to the top of their list Michael Lawrence’s “Real Men Risk Rejection”, in which he declares courtly love to BE the Biblical model, and also, an important test whether the man is capable of leading his family. What a great thing for a minister to do – to suggest that failure to conform to a western mating ritual means one isn’t a real man or a real Christian. Lawrence exegetes that “all risk is the man’s” – which I think is somewhere in 2 Troyes, or perhaps The Acts of Champagne.

  6. swiftfoxmark2 says:

    Perhaps we should get back to the tried and true method of arranging marriages. We could even make an app for it these days.

  7. Dalrock,

    That’s a brilliant post. You are running hot lately.

    [D: Thank you.]

    Also, I didn’t know that stadium marriage proposal was a hoax. But I should have suspected it. Even in our age of hapless betas, that’s is too far out there.

  8. goFigure says:

    I posted this on the last thread in response to IBB, but I think it fits very well with this post. Especially in connection to the concept of courtly love:

    “No man should accept being another mark on a check list. No man should ever accept a woman settling for them. Men are the prize that woman should work to get. If a woman can not accept that then let her have cats.”

  9. Novaseeker says:

    But while technically true, this framing misses the point. Not only does this framing overlook the woman’s responsibility not to price herself out of the marriage market (if she is serious about marriage)

    I think IBB’s point is that the attractive young women have such a stratospherically high SMV that they can’t help but be priced out of any reasonable marriage market other than the rock star market. If you aren’t Hemsworth, she’s gonna wait, in other words. So basically it’s a problem that is not solvable in any way because there’s only so many Hemsworths and millions of HB 7 23yo’s who are gonna wait if one of them isn’t proposing to her.

    IBB was also saying that the guys from Princeton whom the Princeton girls weren’t interested in marrying because they were too “equal” to them should drive off to Rutgers (aka “Rutgiz”) and propose to one of the local Snooki types there. Leaving aside that this overlooks the fact that marriages like that between educational/social classes are pretty much not done today (and not only due to snobbishness among the “uppers” but also due to the “lowers” not liking or being attracted to the “uppers”). Most of the Snookis at Rutgiz are no more attracted to the average guys at Princeton than the Princeton girls are, in reality … they want guys like Sitch, not boring betas from Princeton.

    I mean when I was in college we used to joke that it would be easier to get girls at Santa Clara or San Jose State, but in reality that was not the case because they were interested in different kinds of guys anyway.

  10. Stadium marriage proposals are a thing. Sometimes they work, sometimes they fail big.

    GQ: “Inside the Awkward, High-Risk World of Arena Wedding Proposals”
    https://www.gq.com/story/arena-wedding-proposals

    SB Nation: “If you propose at a stadium and get rejected, you deserve to go viral.” Note the URL; written by a women, naturally.
    https://www.sbnation.com/2017/5/1/15501344/stadium-proposal-rejected-deserve-to-go-viral-you-dummy

    Lots of videos of these. Such as this at Yankee Stadium in 2016:

    Here is a woman proposing – with a surprise ending (not in English):

  11. Trust says:

    I also see the “it’s the biggest decision of your life” fallacy in play here. There is not this one big moment where one decides to marry. Getting married is the result of several seemingly smaller choices for years preceding the proposal. Every yes/no when someone asks you out, every returned or ignored phone call, every breakup, every acceptance/rejection of an attempted kiss or sexual advance, etc.

    I’ve spoken here about both of my sisters. Both never hesitated to go all-in with the Benders of the world, turning down many quality men along the way. Then they wonder why they have four illegitimate children by three convicted felons whereas other women are married to doctors and lawyers and good fathers… not realizing it is not they didn’t have options, they made the smaller choices of who to respond to and reject, not realizing it wasn’t a decision for the day, but a life-path choice.

  12. Gabe Ruth says:

    I can’t understand how you read that moment as blaming reluctant men for these current and future cat ladies’ predicament. He’s clearly placing the blame on their deformed concept of a suitable match, and I think his explanation is more accurate than career focus in the two examples you’ve chosen here.

    Is also strange to say this excuses women. Turning up your nose at every man who might want to marry you and becoming a cat lady might be more pathetic than doing the scene for the sake of your career.

  13. Novaseeker says:

    I can’t understand how you read that moment as blaming reluctant men for these current and future cat ladies’ predicament. He’s clearly placing the blame on their deformed concept of a suitable match

    I don’t read IBB’s comments on this that way at all.

    IBB is basically saying this: young attractive women are at the peak of the SMV curve for women, so the only men who are going to get a positive response to a marriage proposal are men who are at the peak themselves — established MDs, athletes, etc. “Regular guys” won’t cut it because they are below her in SMV. He isn’t saying that they are being delusional about their value — what he is saying is that the men who are hypergamously attractive given their own sky high SMV are not asking them to marry. He’s probably correct about that, in that most MDs aren’t asking 23yo women to marry, and there are only so many actors and athletes to go around. Same thing with the Princeton girls not finding their “peer” Princeton guys attractive enough because they are too “equal” to them — he isn’t saying the women are being delusional, in fact he says the guys should date girls from Rutgers, because the guys are “above” them and therefore attractive to them (I disagree as pointed out above, but that’s not what IBB is saying), but not that the girls from Princeton should get realistic and marry Princeton men — that violates hypergamy. As I read the comments, IBB isn’t saying anywhere that young women are being delusional in their evaluation of their own value — IBB never says that, and I think you are reading in your own ideas to what has been written.

    I don’t think IBB is blaming reluctant men, per se, either. What he is saying is this: the men who these women would say “yes” to (established MDs, actors, athletes .. not other 23 yo guys starting out or normal “boring loyal dudes” who are accountants and lawyers and what have you) are not asking these women to marry, so the women are not marrying and are waiting. They eventually marry when their SMV lowers to the point that they judge that boring loyal dude is what they can get with their deteriorated SMV and market power — according to IBB this is what is driving the delay in marriage. Not women being delusional, but the guys whom they would say “yes” to being too few in number, and women not being interested in normal guys based on the SMV gap with them until their own SMV deteriorates later on. Nowhere is he saying that women are being delusional in their self-assessment of their SMV.

  14. Dalrock says:

    @Gabe Ruth

    I can’t understand how you read that moment as blaming reluctant men for these current and future cat ladies’ predicament. He’s clearly placing the blame on their deformed concept of a suitable match, and I think his explanation is more accurate than career focus in the two examples you’ve chosen here.

    Is also strange to say this excuses women. Turning up your nose at every man who might want to marry you and becoming a cat lady might be more pathetic than doing the scene for the sake of your career.

    IBB’s premise is that Griffith, Rowe, and the women who see them as role models wanted to marry young. When they emulate the feminist life path of their secular sisters it only looks like they are doing the same thing. His claim is they wanted to marry young all along. This is nonsense. The no marriage proposal canard is used to deny that Christian women are doing the same thing as secular women for the same reason.

    IBB and I are in agreement on a couple of important points. Both of us recognize that Christian young women are in very large numbers following the same life script non Christian women are following. And neither of us believe the official narrative that Christian women are delaying marriage because God is compelling them to. But IBB disagrees that when Christian women follow the feminist life script that they are acting out of feminist motivations.

  15. Dalrock,

    Not only does this framing overlook the woman’s responsibility not to price herself out of the marriage market (if she is serious about marriage), but it also has a false embedded assumption about the very nature and context of marriage proposals. While it is true that social convention strongly states that the man should be the one to formally propose marriage, it is also true that it is foolish for a man to go around proposing to women he doesn’t already know want to marry him.

    All of this is true, but I don’t understand the point you are making with reference to my point. Are you implying that (at 22) the woman with her SMV set at its highest point should focus on “settling-for-less-of-a-man” with a much lower SMV if she is truly marriage minded? I’m really not sure where you are going with this.

    I have proposed marriage only 3 times in my entire life and I got a “yes” all three times. In the first two instances (during the engagement) the marriage never came to fruition because I found out some deal breakers that I knew would have ended any marriage I would have had with those two in divorce. In instance #3, I got married and I am still married, best decision I ever made in my life. I think pretty much every man knows what the answer will be (in advance) if he asks a woman to marry him and if the answer will be “no”, why is he bothering to spend time with her if HE is marriage minded the way you and I were? Move on.

    Another more subtle problem with this frame is the embedded assumption that Christianity requires that men pursue women for marriage.

    Dalrock, give me more credit than that. I never said this. And I have never implied it. And if anyone thinks this is what I would be assuming of men, the presume too much.

    To be a good Christian, a man does not have to get married. Marriage is not (nor has it ever been) a requirement in Christianity. Know yourself. Some men just know that they would NOT make good marriage partners (for any number of reasons.) And that is okay. And if a man knows that, no matter how good a catch he is on the outside, he is being a very good Christian if he abstains from pursuing women for marriage. There is nothing (NOTHING) un-Christian about MGTOW.

    Lastly, consider one more assumption nested in this frame. The assumption is that Griffith and Rowe failed because men failed. But which two men are responsible for Griffith’s and Rowe’s failure to marry in their youth? What we don’t see is a movement by the most desirable prospective husbands complaining that they were never able to marry.

    Emphasis mine. I am very happy that you mentioned this. And let us be honest about what is really happening here in a red pill kind of way.

    Dalrock, when is the last time you walked into a book store, a Barnes and Nobel or whatever? My daughter likes books, and (for the very few book stores that remain) we pretty much visit all of them. I am an avid reader. Just an experiment for you (for everyone here) the next time you go into a book store, walk over to the “self help” section. Take notice of the hundreds (dare I say thousands) of books written by women (or even men) FOR women on how to “catch a husband.” The majority of these “catch a husband” books focus on the concept of “tricking-a-man-into-marriage” by way of “neuro linguistic programming” like this world famous book:

    After you have done this, count all the books written by anyone for men on what men have to do to “catch a wife.” I don’t think there are any. There hundreds of books for men on how men can use NLP to try and trick a woman into having sex with him. But there aren’t any books on the shelf that teach a man on what he has to do to “catch a wife.” And I think the reason why these books do not exist is because they wouldn’t sell. Any man who really wants a wife knows what he must to in order get one. The men who have very little to offer know that there is not much they can do. Those who have much to offer, they draw women like flies. So in that sense, writing that book would be pointless.

    The two Christian Prince Charmings that did NOT magically appear and sweep Wendy and Allyson off their feet when they were each 22, rest assured, those men got married (if they wanted to be married) when they were good and ready. We all know this to be true. They would have to beat the women off with a stick. Wendy and Allyson were Anastasia and Drizella where as the man that they would have been willing to marry (at 22) picked their step-sister Ella. They are just not honest about it so they LIE and say that they were focusing on themselves and other feminist what-not. Their Prince Charming never appeared (for whatever reason.) So to make them feel better about their OWN failures, record these silly youtubes and write these disingenuous articles.

    Maybe these two women should be settling for less? Maybe they should have settled back then? I doubt very much that either of them had a fraction to offer a young man what Hailey Baldwin offered Justin Beiber when she married him at the ripe old age of 22. But that is beside the point. Allyson is still young and pretty enough that she can still get a great Christian husband if she changes her ways. Time is running very short but she still has time. That is what I have told her on her youtubes. For Wendy, I don’t have any advice for her.

  16. Joe says:

    Larry Kummer, Editor says:
    May 3, 2019 at 10:28 am
    Stadium marriage proposals are a thing. Sometimes they work, sometimes they fail big.
    *********************************************************************
    Stadium proposals and proposals in general have become a competition recently. Lots of people gathered in a hose or wherever with people recording them, then jumping up like a surprise party.
    John Crist has a funny video about it:

    I did ours quietly in the corner of a fine restaurant that used to be an old house. Nobody knew I was going to ask. I didn’t tell a soul. I did’t get down one one knee. We had never discussed marriage. None of her stuff was at my house. We didn’t move her stuff until the day after the honeymoon even though we were engaged for 8 months.
    I knew she was jumping out of her skin ready for me to ask. Sometimes I thought she was going to explode. It was hysterically funny sometimes watching her keeping it all in and not say anything to me. I even had fingernail marks on my leg from digging my fingernails in to keep from laughing sometimes.
    We still sometimes laugh about it.

  17. feeriker says:

    Another more subtle problem with this frame is the embedded assumption that Christianity requires that men pursue women for marriage. This is another case of mistaking what we call chivalry (courtly love) for Christianity. In the courtly love model the man must boldly declare his romantic intentions and win the heart of his lady fair. Her job is to sit pretty and judge the performance, both during courtship and throughout marriage. This isn’t a biblical model, but because we can’t distinguish between Christianity and a twelfth century parody of Christianity we refuse to see it.

    Chivalry is essential component of the “church of nice” that is all-prevalent today. The biblical model not only disempowers the woman, but might result in lots of hurt feelz and whole populations of spinster cat ladies, as too many women today are simply unmarriageable by biblical standards. Better to chuck God’s word and go with the heretical playbook.

    So the perfect men IBB and so many others want to blame for Griffith and Rowe failing to marry in their youth in all likelyhood succeeded in marrying. This frame blames men who succeed in marrying for the women who fail at it. This is nuts.

    Tradconism 101.

  18. feeriker says:

    What a great thing for a minister to do – to suggest that failure to conform to a western mating ritual means one isn’t a real man or a real Christian. Lawrence exegetes that “all risk is the man’s” – which I think is somewhere in 2 Troyes, or perhaps The Acts of Champagne.

    I think it’s past time that we all recognized that whenever a so-called “pastor/preacher” (or indeed anyone else who claims the mantle of “Christian”) starts spewing such obviously errant, worldly nonsense that it is time to call into question either their familiarity with the Bible or the sincerity of their “Christianity.”

  19. goFigure says:

    Allyson is still young and pretty enough that she can still get a great Christian husband if she changes her ways. Time is running very short but she still has time. That is what I have told her on her youtubes.

    And what changes are you suggestion for her? Because her you imply that a woman identifying her SMV within her cohort of men is anathema.
    Are you implying that (at 22) the woman with her SMV set at its highest point should focus on “settling-for-less-of-a-man” with a much lower SMV if she is truly marriage minded? I’m really not sure where you are going with this.

  20. Dalrock says:

    @IBB

    All of this is true, but I don’t understand the point you are making with reference to my point. Are you implying that (at 22) the woman with her SMV set at its highest point should focus on “settling-for-less-of-a-man” with a much lower SMV if she is truly marriage minded? I’m really not sure where you are going with this.

    If she holds herself in unrealistically high esteem she should humble herself. For nearly all of these women eventually they do settle (once they become serious in their desire to marry). Far too few of them will humble themselves as they should, but that is a different problem.

    Think of it this way. If we observed a group of 30-50 something able bodied and able minded men complaining that they never worked a day in their lives because they were following God’s will, it would be laughable for you to respond that the real problem was they had never received any suitable job offers. Job offers don’t come out of nowhere, they are typically the culmination of a subtle or not so subtle process. Nor would it be reasonable for you to complain that of course they didn’t accept any offers, because noone offered to make them a high powered executive. It is the responsibility of the men themselves to make themselves attractive to prospective employers, and to not hold themselves in overly high esteem.

    Another more subtle problem with this frame is the embedded assumption that Christianity requires that men pursue women for marriage.

    Dalrock, give me more credit than that. I never said this. And I have never implied it. And if anyone thinks this is what I would be assuming of men, the presume too much.

    To be a good Christian, a man does not have to get married. Marriage is not (nor has it ever been) a requirement in Christianity. Know yourself. Some men just know that they would NOT make good marriage partners (for any number of reasons.) And that is okay. And if a man knows that, no matter how good a catch he is on the outside, he is being a very good Christian if he abstains from pursuing women for marriage. There is nothing (NOTHING) un-Christian about MGTOW.

    You are (unintentionally, I think) changing the subject here. My point wasn’t that Christian men are seen as obligated to marry. My point was regarding the fallacious belief that Christianity requires the man to pursue a women as part of the courtship ritual. This is the laughable claim that men must chase/follow a woman, because leaders must chase/follow. It isn’t an idea from the Bible, but from courtly love.

  21. Gaza says:

    Young women are encouraged to seek out experience, status, and provisioning of their own. These are the priorities; not marriage.

    Their actions and choices bear this out repeatedly as there are a number of breakpoints along the way in which these choices either move toward marriage probability or away from it.

    As mentioned by Nova and others, there is a great deal of importance placed on achievement and the trappings of ‘success’ that have nothing to do with femininity or any other aspects that will make her more attractive to a potential men. (Nobody is telling them to acquire such either.)

    The breakpoints: going to college; going to college out of town; going to grad school; travel or service overseas (eg peace corps or gap years or post grad spiritual tourism); moving for career opportunity; moving for fun/friends/experience; making career moves that disrupt stable home life (travel, strange hours, low pay high status jobs); cohabitation because weddings are too expensive or some other crap.

    At each junction her choices are embedded with either pro-marriage or anti-marriage probabilities; she either prioritizes herself, her journey, (what she can get) or a goal of becoming a wife (what she can give.)

    Eg. She leaves her HS boyfriend for college. She ends a college relationship to “study” abroad; she ends a college relationship to go to grad school or to take a job in a different city; she ends a relationship to join the peace corps or spend six months backpacking in asia; she ends a relationship to pursue a job in a new city; she ends a relationship because his career is taking him to a new city; she adopts a lifestyle that makes no time for others (“i am so busy”); she “dates” a lot, for fun, without regard for male character or marital intent (the carousel), she has a bad guy “picker”.

    Each breakpoint narrows the field, decreases her MMV, reinforces her journey as paramount, and builds in her own (false) value as the prize.

    Plus years of hypergamy building and divorce practice bake in an aspect of fragility to each subsequent relationship; she enters and exits more lightly, as she is getting good at the transient and disposable nature of free-floating courtship.

    Of course those breakpoints can cut both ways (he can end the relationship too), but this is often a function of the unserious nature of the relationship to begin with as well as the built in competition of dueling provisioning and status trajectories.

    Most young women are unserious about becoming a wife and largely see marriage and children (some day just not soon) as something that will just happen when the time is right and/or as some kind of status step on their CV.

    Look at most early 30’s online profiles and you will see this pattern ad nauseam. “Im finally ready for a real relationship/man; I love to eat (but cant cook); i love to travel (but have no retirement savings); i love dogs (and so must you); i have a masters in dipshit (and $80k in loans); i love my job (more than spending time with you – or for that matter my eggs); i have awesome friends (who dont want me to find you and with whom I will vet you).

    She is experienced and confident and knows what she wants in a man (finally!). She has done it all so you better blow her mind. As a bonus she has 800 followers on Insta and is still “friends” with her exes. What, No proposals?

    Young women have little interest in hooking their wagon to a young man; this is seen as foolish and risky. By the time they are ready, they are no longer the prize they think they are.

    The modern woman has had a dozen honeymoons and a dozen divorces by the time she is ‘ready’ for marriage. Thats just not very attractive to most men. I rarely ask about their pasts anymore. I let them spin their stories.

    For all too often, the more I know about her journey, the less attractive to me she will become.

    Its blue pill to look for the unicorn and its black pill to foreclose the ideal entirely. Its all rather tragic.

    The lack of proposals notion is retarded. The ones who value marriage and pursue it, tend to get it rather quickly. The rest bumble their way to the cougar bar.

  22. feeriker says:

    @Gaza

    The lack of proposals notion is retarded. The ones who value marriage and pursue it, tend to get it rather quickly.

    Yup. That their numbers are so tiny today simply confirms your statement that the vast majority aren’t even remotely interested. Tragically, for the very rare and few young ones that are, they face HORRENDOUS negative pressure from parents, peers, and society at large to abandon their quest. Church girls face it as much as their non-Christian peers, if not more intensely.

  23. Gabe Ruth says:

    NS, thanks, I see that your reading is probably more accurate. I’m not really on the scene enough to appreciate the extent to which people have reified SMV. He does indeed seem to be defending the decisions of these women.

  24. feministhater says:

    So the perfect men IBB and so many others want to blame for Griffith and Rowe failing to marry in their youth in all likelyhood succeeded in marrying. This frame blames men who succeed in marrying for the women who fail at it. This is nuts.

    He quite clearly isn’t blaming the perfect men that get married. He is blaming the rest of the men for not being successful enough and early enough in their lives to be able to propose marriage to these daughters when they are ready. He is also blaming the high status men who decide to rather forego marriage and enjoy their buffet instead.

    He quite clearly is shit scared there are not enough high status men for his daughter to be chosen by. He wants a man to be able to achieve his daughter’s hypergamous expectations and then surpass them but still be content enough to ask his daughter for marriage rather than enjoy the thousands of other more beautiful and younger women he could take is fill from.

  25. Novaseeker says:

    Young women are encouraged to seek out experience, status, and provisioning of their own. These are the priorities; not marriage.

    See,. I think what IBB is claiming is that while women say this is what they are doing, the only reason they are saying that is because a 6’2″ handsome, established MD didn’t propose when they were 23. So they decided to wait and do those other things while waiting for that golden proposal, and claim, to save face, that they were really just pursuing their dreams instead of actually just waiting for the golden proposal. He isn’t saying that these women are interested in marrying normal guys … He says that they are not. He’s saying that the golden proposal that they would be interested in isn’t being made, so they find other things to do while they are waiting for it, and say they are pursuing their dreams to save face. This is the claim.

  26. emery says:

    @IBB
    “Are you implying that (at 22) the woman with her SMV set at its highest point should focus on “settling-for-less-of-a-man” with a much lower SMV if she is truly marriage minded?”

    Yes! It’s all about the different life-SMV curves of men and women.

    Your assertion is shocking to read. If a woman is at the peak of SMV, think of the visual SMV Market Value graph, she will by definition never be that high again and will only degrade. If she met her exact SMV match she would be totally unworthy of him for the entire rest of their lives! You are demanding that men stay with women who are less desirable then themselves, and considering ‘the wall’ that means men are stuck with women waaaay below them for decades.

    It used to be that young men who were just starting their professional journeys would get with young women who were much sexier than the men were. The men would enjoy a hot young wife and, through the well known wife-googles phenomenon, be loyal to her and always remember her as the the youthful babe who wanted him. The men would mature and become social pillars in much higher SMV than their wife but the he could always remember her as she was in youth. They may reach similar SMV peaks but it’s staggered so that each one gets a partner far more desirable then themselves at any given time.

    In short: Marriage as you describe it is a ripoff! In your scenario the only logical outcome for men is that they should only be Cads, enjoying those 2-3 years of maximum hotness then discarding them once she starts to decline.

  27. Dalrock,

    This is the laughable claim that men must chase/follow a woman, because leaders must chase/follow. It isn’t an idea from the Bible, but from courtly love.

    As you already know, I have not made that claim.

  28. feministhater says:

    Remember, it’s the 80/20 rule. 80 percent of women will only choose to marry 20% of men in their prime years. This means that the highest percentage of younger marriage is always 20% or less. Those 20 percent of men don’t need to get married and they have endless choice.

    IBB’s point is that all women would choose to get married to these men as soon as the could, if those men would simply propose marriage to them. They will throw themselves at these men just at the chance of success. They will waste their youth in an endless search for one of these men and they will do this every time rather than settle in their youth for less than perfect man.

    That there are 80 percent of other men to choose from means zero. Women do not care about these men, never have and never will. Now that they are not forced to marrying, nor rely on men and have endless choice and freedom, they will never settle and instead would actually prefer to bitch when they hit the wall than ever have gotten married to one of these ‘lesser men’ when they were younger. Let me make that case again. Women would 100% prefer to bitch at a later date, once they hit the wall, rather than have gotten married to a lesser man when she was younger but that they would jump at the mere chance of being married to one of the 20% of the higher status man.

    Younger marriage is dead because women will never, ever choose on their own free will to sacrifice their youth and fertility for a ‘lesser’ man, certainly not when one of those higher status men are just down the road for her; and believe you me, all women think the better deal is just ahead, just a bit longer now, just about there, is that him over there….?

  29. Nova,

    See,. I think what IBB is claiming is that while women say this is what they are doing, the only reason they are saying that is because a 6’2″ handsome, established MD didn’t propose when they were 23. So they decided to wait and do those other things while waiting for that golden proposal, and claim, to save face, that they were really just pursuing their dreams instead of actually just waiting for the golden proposal. He isn’t saying that these women are interested in marrying normal guys … He says that they are not. He’s saying that the golden proposal that they would be interested in isn’t being made, so they find other things to do while they are waiting for it, and say they are pursuing their dreams to save face. This is the claim.

    +1000 for this. That is exactly what I am saying. Thank you for communicating it better than I did.

    They are just prideful. They are too proud to admit that they would have married younger had Christian Prince Charming arrived. He never arrived and pride stipulates that they can’t honest about that.

  30. Anon says:

    During the discussion of The season of singleness commenter innocentbystanderboston (IBB) made a fairly common argument, that women like Wendy Griffith and Allyson Rowe didn’t delay marriage in pursuit of feminist goals, but instead were forced to pursue feminist goals in their youth because they had no suitable marriage proposals:

    It is important to remind everyone that this was Mrs. IBB posting under her husband’s handle, as often occurs. This has been proved irrefutably in the past.

    Mr. IBB is pretty red pill, and has even said that female suffrage is a disaster. He only loses it when something hits too close to home, such as a fear that his daughters may not be able to execute AF/BB to its fullest, or incur risks along the way.

    His wife, of course, has views typical of middle-aged women. She was the one making the argument featured in the OP.

  31. Anon says:

    The majority of these “catch a husband” books focus on the concept of “tricking-a-man-into-marriage” by way of “neuro linguistic programming” like this world famous book:

    A book that was famously known for not working for female readers, as it is one of the best examples of female solipism ever.

    It is a pretty good book for a man to read in terms of Game, as the basic NLP principles *will* work if done by a man on a woman. But there is no way a woman can use NLP to suddenly have an SMV on par with a woman 4 points higher in looks. A 5 cannot use ‘The Rules’ and become a 9 in men’s eyes, despite what solipistic women think given that Game does work when men use it on women.

  32. AnonS says:

    Media and expectations have broken the male sexual marketplace. Women base their own standing based on their perception of the male market, the more they see elite men the more invisible average men become. So now 80% of men are invisible because of world wide male celebrities setting the standard. Only 14.5% of men are 6 ft tall or over. Growing up in a local community and not being exposed to global status standards avoids this.

    The female brain can’t handle mass media.

  33. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    They are just prideful. They are too proud to admit that they would have married younger had Christian Prince Charming arrived. He never arrived and pride stipulates that they can’t honest about that.

    This right here makes them essentially useless as a wife to anyone.

  34. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    Sense you have been studying ‘the red pill’; I have to ask; have you never come across the idea of the apex fallacy?

  35. Yes, I know about the apex fallacy.

  36. Charles B says:

    They’re not getting proposals because they’re not pursuing guys who are or will be marriage material. It’s all in their choices.

    Chad and Tyrone aren’t going to propose, and they know it.

  37. Anon says:

    goFigure,

    Sense you have been studying ‘the red pill’; I have to ask; have you never come across the idea of the apex fallacy?

    Mr. IBB certainly has. He has been a commenter here for at least six years, and is usually a reliable red-pill guy.

    Mrs. IBB, of course, is a woman, so can’t grasp the concept of apex fallacy.

    They both comment under the same handle.

  38. Joe says:

    This is the laughable claim that men must chase/follow a woman, because leaders must chase/follow. It isn’t an idea from the Bible, but from courtly love.
    *************************

    I see this same “chasing” theme now in Churches that claim that Jesus is pursuing us.

    Jesus does not chase after us. I just don’t see that in scripture. But if it is, I’d like those references. Maybe I’m just missing them.

  39. Anon, do you have any idea WHY I am against women’s suffrage? There are some very specific reasons for that.

    There is only one of me. Its just that the “red pill” has opened my eyes and I see the world in a very different way than most people. And sometimes I fail at communicating exactly why I see it that way. Which is why I just complimented Novaseeker in doing a good job explaining my thoughts (thoughts you may or may not disagree with) more clearly than I could.

  40. Anon says:

    IBB,

    Anon, do you have any idea WHY I am against women’s suffrage? There are some very specific reasons for that.

    Oh, I agree with you (Mr. IBB) on that point. Ideally, voting should be tied to taxpaying, which, had that been done from 1913 onwards, would automatically have kept the voter base 90% male (and the 10% of women who vote are invariably going to be the best-voting women).

    Even now, if we tied voting to taxpaying, things would very gradually return to the voter base becoming 90% male.

    I am just pointing out why extremely inconsistent views are posted by the IBB account, as has been true for years.

  41. The Question says:

    I only speak to my own experience here, but millennial Christian women will make no secret (when they’re young, mind you) that they are not interested in marriage until they are in their late twenties and early 30s. I have had girls openly declare they have no interest in marriage (dating is another thing, by the way) until around that age, because they want to travel and pursue a career in big cities. As Dalrock would say, they want to earn their feminist merit badges first.

    If anyone doubts this, try suggesting that Christian girls should get married when they’re in their early twenties, and see how bad the backlash is from virtually everyone. Where are the Relevant and Christianity Today articles full of interviews with 22-year-old girls lamenting how they can’t find a man despite the yearning to marry and have kids. (at 22, mind you).

  42. vfm7916 says:

    Those above, such as TheQuestion, who mention the father’s role in their daughter’s timeline are generally right in that the daughter will follow the expectation and example set by her father where the father has headship in theory and practice, as represented by her mother.

    If the father sets and reinforces the expectation that the daughter will marry well at an age from 19-21 and sets the criteria she should be looking for, it’s far more likely that a daughter will do so. No father should pay for college, nor support a college decision. It should be clear from the outset that a daughter that marries well and has offspring within the marriage will recieve all accolades and support, and nothing for a daughter that does not.

    Dalrock is correct here as it is up to the female to signal interest in being pursued FIRST. BEFORE THE MAN TAKES ACTION. Those signals can be tough for inexperienced men to spot; especially when the shields are up and you’re trying to interact with a post-college carousel rider. Those women have no idea what they want in the first place, or they would be married already.

    Young women are told they can be anything. No one bothers to tell them what they should be, or what they should be to maximize their happiness. Why is anyone surprised when the result of “You can be anything!” leads to demographic collapse, bitterness, and cats?

    Women in their teens and twenties can’t be saved externally. The damage is done. Only years of reinforcement, guidance, and role modeling from birth onwards has the potential to build a Christian woman. For those of you with young girls, that work starts now if you aren’t already doing so.

  43. Oh, I agree with you (Mr. IBB) on that point. Ideally, voting should be tied to taxpaying, which, had that been done from 1913 onwards, would automatically have kept the voter base 90% male (and the 10% of women who vote are invariably going to be the best-voting women).

    There are very good reasons to restrict voters to taxpayers, but that is not the reason why I am against Women’s Suffrage. The reasons why I am against women voting is more centered on the spending side as opposed to the taxation side. But that is beside the point. There is only one of me. And I am tired of you (and others) insisting that there are two of me.

  44. NotaBene says:

    Would love a post about some strategies for raising a daughter not to be like the above women. So far we home school, attend a Brazilian church with a very traditional “supervised courtship” model where the father makes most of the decisions and they tend to marry within the church. We have taught her some homemaking skills (she’s only 8). I’m certainly not paying for college, if she wants to be a career girl she can pay for it herself.

    Wondering about when she grows up a bit and is interested in meeting guys (or not). Anything to watch out for, how controlling to be as a dad? I’m hoping to marry her off pretty early. I got married at 20 after four years of traditional “dating”, and that was really hard. Don’t want her to go through that.

  45. AnonS says:

    “Would love a post about some strategies for raising a daughter not to be like the above women.”

    You have to practice anti-consumerism and anti-materialism in the home. Never keep up with the Joneses and mock anyone who wastes their time doing so. Foster a sense that status is tied to virtues and not buying markers of status.

    https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

  46. Anonymous Reader says:

    This is as good a place as any for an excerpt from Deep Strength’s book. I do not have a paper page number but it is Kindle location 1897 of 4958. Any typos/errors are mine. Emphasis in original text.

    Respect is an overall attitude toward the one in authority that leads to humble submission. This is the attitude that a woman should have towards her father prior to marriage and the attitude that she should have toward you after marriage. You can screen for this key quality when vetting a wife.

    This tends to be a big issue with Christian men with stronger mother figures or absentee father figures. They go into a relationship looking for love from their wife and they will respect their wife. This creates a dysfunctional relationship pattern with inverted roles in marriage. If you respect your wife you are inadvertently placing her in authority over you, which means you are making her an idol. Men who claim to respect their wives have relationships where their wife is the implicit boss, and they will often become increasingly unhappy and dissatisfied with the marriage over time. This is an inversion of relationship roles and contrary to scripture. Do not fall prey to this cultural idolatry trap.

    In anticipation of any objections: Yes, this excerpt is very much on topic.

  47. Anon says:

    IBB said,

    And I am tired of you (and others) insisting that there are two of me.

    Then don’t let your wife post under your handle anymore. Make her use her own.

    The recent female-centric posts you have made could not have been by a man who has been here for six years and is otherwise red-pill. The writing style was female. Plus, Lyn87 once proved irrefutably that a married couple was posting under the same handle.

    Either that, or you have a Smeagol/Gollum-style split personality. This is far less likely than the husband/wife explanation.

  48. The Question,

    I only speak to my own experience here, but millennial Christian women will make no secret (when they’re young, mind you) that they are not interested in marriage until they are in their late twenties and early 30s. I have had girls openly declare they have no interest in marriage (dating is another thing, by the way) until around that age, because they want to travel and pursue a career in big cities. As Dalrock would say, they want to earn their feminist merit badges first.

    Excellent. May I make a suggestion. This is where the clever, calculating, red-pill, millennial, Christian man stops looking the young lady in the eye, starts to use his peripheral vision, and responds with a comment like the following: “Oh I totally agree, I also want to travel and pursue a career in big cities. But I want to do that with my wife. I want to share those experiences with her, make those OUR experiences.” Then shut the hell up, and walk off.

    Later (perhaps a few weeks later) if you run into her again, one of two things are likely to happen:

    #1) she might strike up conversation with you (like, where exactly do you WANT to travel to with your wife???) because she will see you in a different light than she once did because your SMV may have ticked up just a wee bit but your MMV (which is really all you should care about) is through the roof because you exhibited an alpha-male response that she was not prepared for that demonstrates that maybe you have your shit together enough that she might want to be a part of that life OR

    #2) she is going to turn around and walk away from you as quickly as she can because the only thing she cares about (in a husband) is SMV and you don’t rate and (therefore) your common-sense, not so nicey-nice way of looking at the way single Christian men and single Christian women should behave around each other exposes the fact that you are too short, too fat, too ugly, or too stupid and she doesn’t want to breed with you because you will (in her eyes) never provide the kind of lifestyle that she feels her SMV is deserving.

    Its not that she wants to travel the world and see the big cities as opposed to getting married. She’ll get married (young) if she can have everything she wants while she’s young. Either way Millennial, if you follow my suggestion you’ll never be the beta-orbiter. You have just saved yourself a whole lot of pain, time, and heart-ache with this one young lady. And I know how painful it can be. I was young once. More than one occasion, (several in fact) I thought I was “in love” with a young lady with an SMV that was apparently too high for me, and she wanted nothing to do with me. (Well, we could be “friends” hah.) But I learned that early and was able to move on until I found Miss Right. And yes, it stings being stuck in beta-orbiter status with a higher SMV. But you get over it very quickly once you stop orbiting.

  49. Novaseeker says:

    Only years of reinforcement, guidance, and role modeling from birth onwards has the potential to build a Christian woman. For those of you with young girls, that work starts now if you aren’t already doing so.

    Assuming that the parents want to do so. Most parents, including most Christian ones, want their daughters to follow the life script of college–>job–>travel–>marriage late20s/early30s.

  50. vfm7916 says:

    Raising daughters:

    Homeschool (you got this)
    Don’t virtue signal.
    Tell her what will make her most happy and fulfilled as a woman. Review, repeat, remind.
    Avoid Disney.
    Use life as object lessons. Point out and speak up when there’s a moral lesson, especially in advertising, media, etc.
    Praise traditional roles and disapprove of nontrad behavior.
    Emphasize that marriage and dating is serious business, and it’s her job to pick well. It’s not about just emotional feeling, but also evaluation for provision ability. In short, know when to dive for pearls and know when to thresh wheat.
    Develop her exposure to older men (like 24-25 when she’s 19-20) who have a good plan and start on career/trade. Try to avoid similar age pairings.
    Remember, you’re trying to get her married to a man who will have sex with her, she will submit to, and have your grandchildren with. Getting all squeamish over this idea, or going the purity route is virtue signaling and is harmful to the daughter. This is probably the one idea that has doomed most Christian churches in the US to extinction.

  51. Otto says:

    “IBB’s premise is that Griffith, Rowe, and the women who see them as role models wanted to marry young.”

    People who want a job, find one–if they are persistent and focused. Same with a finding a spouse.

    Rowe & Griffith may have been open to marriage, but I suspect both followed the passive approach, and waited for “God to put my husband in my life”. That doesn’t work for job hunting, and it doesn’t work for husband hunting.

    As far as SMV goes, I would rate Rowe an 8 (at best)–in her prime, and that was with knowing every trick of the trade due to being a beauty pageant contestant. Had she been focused on getting married, I have no doubt she could have snagged a male 8 as a husband at the time.

    I suspect being a beauty queen exploded her ego. I’m sure she was rejecting 8s in her youth, because they were beneath her status. Now she wears too much makeup and seems to have had lip augmentation to maintain her 8 status, but that’s long gone. Today I’d rate her a 6 (1 extra point for not being fat, but otherwise her looks are now unremarkable).

    And now that she is ready to compromise and settle for a male 8, guess what? Those 8s are unavailable to her. Married (or now in their 30s) they comprehend their value and realize they can do better than the now 6 Ms Rowe. Ouch.

    Maybe she wanted to get married in her youth, in the same way some people want a car in their youth: they expect a new BMW to show up in their driveway on Christmas day. But, to actively persue one; to set a goal, work, and stay focused till they acheived their goal and got what they wanted? No, she didn’t do that.

  52. goFigure says:

    This is where the clever, calculating, red-pill, millennial, Christian man stops looking the young lady in the eye, starts to use his peripheral vision, and responds with a comment like the following: “Oh I totally agree, I also want to travel and pursue a career in big cities. But I want to do that with my wife. I want to share those experiences with her, make those OUR experiences.” Then shut the hell up, and walk off.

    Why would a “red-pill, calculating, millennial, Christian man” want to create MMV interest from a woman that obviously can’t think her way out of a paper back? Is she really worth his effort? Will she make a good mother, and demonstrate a Christ centered life for there children? Can he delegate any responsibility to her for any part of there life?

    A better suggestion for these young men is to tell the woman in the conversation; I will be doing all those things with my wife and kids. Then wish her the best (ie don’t look for another interaction).

  53. goFigure says:

    My last comment should read: paper bag not paper back.

  54. goFigure says:

    No Christian man anywhere needs his wife to be another child to look after. What he needs is a help-meet.

  55. Dalrock says:

    @IBB

    Excellent. May I make a suggestion.

    I don’t buy the theory that there is a Mr and Mrs IBB commenting on the same moniker. But one thing I’ve noticed is that women who fail for an extended period of time to attract a husband tend to focus on advising men what they should be doing differently to win them over. Here you are doing this vicariously. It is odd, but as I stated I don’t think this is proof of two people using one moniker.

  56. NotaBene,

    Would love a post about some strategies for raising a daughter not to be like the above women.

    To NOT be like the women above? I started with the life lessons and getting her to think logically about cause-and-effect. But I only do this when she and I are one-on-one. My daughter has expressed interest in marriage, I think she very much wants to get married, but I have reel her back in from time-to-time with the feminist under-pinning’s of our society.

    I’ll give you an example of a one-on-one life lesson, she might say something to me like “Well daddy, I’ll give my husband whatever he wants as long as he doesn’t abuse me.” Then I will respond in a way that most trad-con fathers would DARE NOT respond to their daughters and say “Could you define for me exactly what you mean by husbandly abuse of his wife?” And I then I wont say anything. She’ll get quiet, and think about that question for a few minutes. Then she will really drill down into the depths of the question and start to question exactly what “abuse” means to her. She’ll shut down and focus on that NOT because she wants to analyze what is or what is not “husbandly abuse”, but INSTEAD because she was led to believe (by the feminist imperative) that “husbandly abuse” is anything she wants it to be and NOW she had to defend the indefensible position to her father. Of course, she can’t do that. So she realizes she must “re-evaluate” the feminist imperative and what it is telling her about how she needs to judge and behave with her future husband. But she wouldn’t come to that realization unless I challenged her to really think about what she once thought was important.

    Its just small things like that. I want to give future son-in-law a break, give him the best shot possible because I am a greedy bastard and I want to surround myself with 12 grand-children. I want to spoil them rotten every Christmas because that is a grand father’s prerogative. That is best achieved if you get your daughter(s) into the right frame of mind about their future husbands by challenging them to think outside the box.

  57. feeriker says:

    No Christian man anywhere needs his wife to be another child to look after.

    No man, generically, Christian or not, needs such a burden.

  58. goFigure,

    Why would a “red-pill, calculating, millennial, Christian man” want to create MMV interest from a woman that obviously can’t think her way out of a paper bag? Is she really worth his effort? Will she make a good mother, and demonstrate a Christ centered life for there children? Can he delegate any responsibility to her for any part of there life?

    Its up to you. As for why, well, young women have been simmering in feminist imperative since birth. Many of them don’t even know how to act around decent young Christian men. We have two choices: throw them all away OR help them un-learn that which they have learned. I’m not ready to go all scorched earth just yet. Some women are worth saving and some are not.

  59. Opus says:

    It seems to me that IBB’s initial premise is implausible: the syllogism seems to be 1. Wendy and Allyson having an acceptable MMV and are keen to marry an aspirational doctor with prospects and money 2. there are known to these females a sufficiently large number of medical doctors with just such prospects and money 3. Wendy and Allyson have not married such a man.

    Most Doctors marry. One must then conclude barring bad luck that either Wendy and Allyson are not of sufficiently high MMV, or, there are not that many medical Doctors to satisfy the demands of the worlds Allysons and Wendys or there are but Wendy and Allyson have not given proper signals of interest to the medical doctors.

    I am no fan of Miss Austen but is not the above precisely the premise of Pride and Prejudice where to begin with even Mr D’Arcy is just not good enough (even as he emerges shirtless from the pond).

  60. I am no fan of Miss Austen but is not the above precisely the premise of Pride and Prejudice where to begin with even Mr D’Arcy is just not good enough (even as he emerges shirtless from the pond).

    Yup, Pride and Prejudice. Super-Hypergamy was just as true then as it is now.

  61. I have zero sympathy for women like Wendy or Allyson or any woman who decides to follow their advice.

    All of these women had a slice of time to either make hay while the sun shines or pursue degrees, career and sow their royal oats, banking on Beta Bill toi be waiting at her finish line and 30th birthday. Most women today obviously choose the later scenario.

    They all possessed some degree of youth, health, beauty and feminine virtue.
    Typically, her feminine virtue is the first thing to go because Lord knows chastity is really hard with pervasive feminism, “you go girl” culture, combined with unlimited male sexual attention, high efficacy birth control, and zero social consequences.

    I don’t mind that they think they’re qualified to tell men what to do and how to do it, or to coach women on how to persuade and cajole a man to marry them at 38 years old.

    The men who fall for this kind of stuff should really know better.

  62. NotaBene says:

    Thanks for all the feedback on my question. Things I need to keep in mind because I’m really good at whining and poking holes in things, but often bad at being proactive.

    Much of those things we already do. AnonS, that was funny because I’m militantly anti-consumerism (no TV, no ads, no commercials, I literally tape up logos/brand names in my house). We are very selective about the movies we let her watch, even at sleepovers and such.

    I’m a teacher and we often have Bible discussions/reading in the home (it’s part of her education). For now, I think we’re doing well, but people always tell me to be scared of teen girls and their wily ways, so I’m thinking ahead about when she wants to date, and I want to marry her off.

  63. Joe says:

    Feminine wiles
    She isn’t getting enough dates.
    What a setup looks like.

    Those links… It hardly happens these days. (The top one is my story btw)

    My 28 year old son is financially well off, and is living overseas currently. He owns a house here in the US, free and clear of a mortgage, so he lets his adult sister (25) live there for free. She has a room-mate, who my son charges. Good setup for both of them.
    Now, being that he’s living 8,000 miles away, he can’t see to some basic stuff that sometimes needs to be done to a house. So my daughter contacts me to take care of those things. Which I do. You know, stuff that needs occasional repair. My son does pay me.

    Here’s my beef. What about all this “community” that Churches are supposed to be having these days “doing life together”? Where are the guys that she goes to Church with that she can ask to come take a look at something that’s not working and needs a little fixing?

    I’ll tell you where it is. These singles “community groups” are segregated by sex. The girls don’t typically associate with the guys on a weekly, informal basis. In fact because of this, the girls don’t see guys leading them in a bible study, then going out corporately and having some fun together. I get that sometimes girls and guys need there segregated space, but that can be arranged by alternating. Co-ed one week, together the next. Something like that.

    That’s how we did it back in the 80’s. Our group was not segregated by sex. We guys made announcements before class that if one of the girls needed something repaired or a car looked at, to give us a call and we’d come look at it. This is how we got to know some of the girls and yes, I did oil changes, and was thanked with a home-made dinners from the girls. Once at a co-ed Bible study (we played games afterwords), I played a game of pool with a girl and we bet on the game. The bet was if she lost, she would cook me dinner. If I lost, I’d take her out to dinner. (She lost. She was my girlfriend for about 4-5 months after that. She was a terrible cook though!). This never would have happened if we were segregated. And after my wife helped me paint before we dated, she asked me to hang a couple of ceiling fans for her. That one ended up with us getting married. What if her dad had been there to do that stuff for her?

    I wonder if I’m making a mistake by being so available for my daughter. Maybe I should back off and tell her to ask a guy at Church.

    If guys even know how to do stuff like that these days.

  64. The Question says:

    @Dalrock

    “One thing I’ve noticed is that women who fail for an extended period of time to attract a husband tend to focus on advising men what they should be doing differently to win them over. Here you are doing this vicariously.”

    It’s also a reframe.

    Women: Why can’t I find a man before I’m 30?”
    Man: Well, possibly because you’re doing “A,B, and C” when you shouldn’t. Or, because you avoided marriage at the age men most wanted to marry you.
    Women: Well, if you care so much about marrying a woman before she turns 30, you need to do “D, E, and F” differently.
    Man: I’m not the one complaining about why I’m single at 30. I’m pointing out why women are single at 30.

  65. Joe,

    That’s how we did it back in the 80’s. Our group was not segregated by sex. We guys made announcements before class that if one of the girls needed something repaired or a car looked at, to give us a call and we’d come look at it. This is how we got to know some of the girls and yes, I did oil changes, and was thanked with a home-made dinners from the girls.

    What you described is functional and healthy and normal and Christian. But I grew up in the 80’s and I have never seen a young single adults group at any church that I was a member. All I saw what blue haired people in the pews. There were no young, single adults. I was alone.

    So (now that I am married) I ask around here what these infamous churchiantiy single’s groups are like and they tell me that if one of the girls needed something like help to move boxes or furniture, to give one of the single males a call. He would come and move all their furniture for the young lady and (after he was done) she would thank him by introducing him to her alpha-thug boyfriend that she has sex with every night who would show up just as the church single was finishing for her.

  66. cshort says:

    @Joe

    First, you’re not making a mistake by being available for your daughter. Besides, the work you’re doing on the house isn’t ultimately for her (though it may benefit her), it’s for your son who’s paying you to help him maintain his home while he’s 8000 miles away.

    As far as segregated singles groups, that’s probably for the best and is actually an oddity. When I last participated in those type of groups as a single man in the late 90’s to early 2000s, the dynamic was anything but Christian. The singles groups I see in the churches in my local area now aren’t much better than your average college campus in regards to hookup culture. Besides, if the church is encouraging a male only space don’t dare undermine it. That is such a rare thing in the western church or culture that it shouldn’t be discouraged.

    Finally, in my experience most churches seem to setup their small groups to fail anyway. Yes, many argue that the group’s purpose is to “do life together” and then sabotage that goal with how they get set up, suggested activities for the groups, etc… I’ve only ever seen one church that seems to have it down for “doing live together.” Most merely do “church together” where they gather weekly, except during the summer months, and do little more than discuss the previous weeks sermon.

  67. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    This is the laughable claim that men must chase/follow a woman, because leaders must chase/follow. It isn’t an idea from the Bible, but from courtly love.

    Joe
    I see this same “chasing” theme now in Churches that claim that Jesus is pursuing us.

    Deep Strength’ s Biblical Masculinity Blueprint Kindle location 1418 of 4958

    The pervasive romantic attitude that men are supposed to pursue women runs contrary to the Father and Jesus’s actions. Both culture and some in the church would have us believe that Jesus continues to chase after us at all costs. This is only true in the example of the parable of the lost sheep where the shepherd goes to apprehend a sheep that wandered away, yet in that case that sheep was already under the shepherd’s care (Luke 15). Only after we are committed in marriage are we responsible to seek after that which is lost when it is ours. This mirors the role and responsibilities of marriage.

    The biblical model for relationships is that men demonstrate and invite, and women choose to respond to that invitation. If a man asks a woman out on a date and she turns him down, should that man continue to try to be romantic and chase after her? Of course not! A man cannot say or do anything to convince a woman to like him more. Even if by some measure he wears down her resistance, and she capitulates, such a relationship will not work out in the long run because she likely did not have a genuine desire to be in the relationship with him. Whether or not she acts on it, she will want to leave as soon as the next best thing comes along.

    No matter how much you as a man might want to be in a relationship with a woman, she also needs to want to be in that relationship with you. She has to want to follow you out of a genuine desire to be with you.

    It will be interesting to see how pastors react to Deep Strength’s text; especially those with books and blogs to monetize.

  68. Joe2 says:

    First, I’m interested in Allyson Rowe’s family background (father, mother, siblings). I searched the internet, but couldn’t find anything.

    Second, there is no mention of her ethnicity, but several photos seem to suggest that she can present herself as mixed race, such as here

    Maybe this is all common knowledge and is out there, but it isn’t easy to find which seems rather unusual.

  69. feeriker says:

    I’ve only ever seen one church that seems to have it down for “doing live together.” Most merely do “church together” where they gather weekly, except during the summer months, and do little more than discuss the previous weeks sermon.

    It really requires a real New Testament church body to “do life together.” How many of THOSE are there today?* Most of what we call “churches” are just non-profit corporations that provide quasi-Christian music and once-per-week socializing for paying customers.

    (*Ask yourself this question if you attend anything other than a megachurch: How many people attend your church who have been sitting in the same pew every Sunday for decades that you don’t even know their name, let alone anything about them? I’m betting that their numbers are much greater than those of the people you know, even casually.)

  70. feeriker says:

    Allyson Rowe: “To be honest: Today, I just want to travel the world, overspend at Target, drink lots of coffee (bc without it I’m basically a 2 year old whose blankie is in the dryer), and cuddle puppies.”

    Does that read like “wife material?”

  71. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    As for why, well, young women have been simmering in feminist imperative since birth. Many of them don’t even know how to act around decent young Christian men. We have two choices: throw them all away OR help them un-learn that which they have learned.

    Binary thinking, and as usual from the female point of view. There’s a wide range of “not yet” responses that are possible from Gen Y / Gen Z women. With The Glasses on a man can see just how determined any given girl is at any given time to ride the carousel while “collecting experiences”, It is not the job of any random man to re-train every woman he meets. He has the right to protect himself and his future, and that means he gets to hold to his standards for female companionship. Not yours.

    I’m not ready to go all scorched earth just yet. Some women are worth saving and some are not.

    We get that your daughter is still not married. That is your problem, not ours.

  72. The Question says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    “It is not the job of any random man to re-train every woman he meets. He has the right to protect himself and his future, and that means he gets to hold to his standards for female companionship. Not yours.”

    It’s amazing the level of entitlement, to think that men will ultimately comes “to the rescue” of women by marrying them no matter what they’ve done. This is what happens when a society eradicates any potential dread women might experience under all circumstances. And it is precisely this level of entitlement and absence of dread that cause women to make the choices that leave them unmarried at 30 and forced to settle (at least below what she believes she deserves).

  73. Anonymous Reader says:

    Someone else already pointed this out, I’ll restate:

    IBB’s real problem is with this:

    https://i1.wp.com/therationalmale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg?ssl=1

    The statement “they aren’t married because no one is asking them” is false for the vast majority of women aged 18 – 30, because most women in that bracket have gotten or can get a proposal of marriage, just not from the top 20% of men that they desire. Embedded in that solipsistic statement is the Apex fallacy, hypergamy, the “carousel of experiences” and so forth.

    Settling? It’s just around the corner.

    Basically the operators of the IBB account are complaining that life is not fair, and that men should do something!. This is feminism 100, but it’s been obvious for years that IBB is a 2nd stage (1970’s era) feminist. It was the core of Hooking Up Smart back when $usan Wal$h was still active and attempting to monetize her brand.

    tldr:
    “Life is not fair. Women most affected. Men should do something.” – IBB

  74. Novaseeker says:

    @IBB

    He would come and move all their furniture for the young lady and (after he was done) she would thank him by introducing him to her alpha-thug boyfriend that she has sex with every night who would show up just as the church single was finishing for her.

    Right, because women actually want to ride the carousel in their 20s, IBB!! They really do. Are some of them harboring silly thoughts that they can domesticate alpha thug into an alpha bux husband? Sure. But they still ride away, because the riding is good, and they love it.

    @Joe2 —

    Maybe this is all common knowledge and is out there, but it isn’t easy to find which seems rather unusual.

    You’re really interested in this stuff aren’t you? I remember that from our discussion about Miami at Deep’s. She isn’t mixed race, by the way.

  75. DrTorch says:

    Wow. I still don’t see the connection between what IBB wrote and what dalrock followed up with. Dalrock’s follow up contained a lot of truths, I just don’t see them as a response to IBB.

    Misunderstandings occur, the appropriate response is a simple apology and move on. The piling on that happens is really catty.

    That excerpt from DeepStrength’s book is fantastic. Very, very good.

    joe- I don’t really know who Allyson Rowe* is, but your points about her family are interesting, and your comment about her pic is spot on.

    *I actually did go to MS and HS with an Allison Roe.

  76. Torch,

    Wow. I still don’t see the connection between what IBB wrote and what dalrock followed up with. Dalrock’s follow up contained a lot of truths, I just don’t see them as a response to IBB.

    Misunderstandings occur, the appropriate response is a simple apology and move on. The piling on that happens is really catty.

    Thanks. Its okay. I’m not a woman. I am not going to get my panties in a twist over this. I’m a big boy.

    There are a lot of readers here who are very “sensitive” on this subject. So sometimes, due to their heightened sensitivities, they are going to take things the wrong way or maybe they just assume too much. Either way, its just water off a duck’s back for me.

  77. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    Right, because women actually want to ride the carousel in their 20s, IBB!!

    For whatever reason, IBB can’t stomach the truth of “watch what they do, not what they say”.

    IBB
    There are a lot of readers here who are very “sensitive” on this subject.

    Irony.

  78. galloper6 says:

    Marriage Market Conundrum; Women want high mileage men, men want low mileage women.

  79. Opus says:

    Can I be the first to point out that IMHO Allyson Rowe may by beauty contest standards be very attractive but even in her worst photos she looks awful and that voice. Nooooooooooo. but mixed race? She certainly has black friends so maybe that is the audience she is aiming at but mixed race, surely not. I know what mixed race is and it does not usually look like The Duchess of Sussex.(such an embarrassment please relieve us of her and her phantom 40 week pregnancy).

    IBBs problem is of course that he has daughters whom he is anxious to offload on to some impressionable chap. Now, I quite understand but to take a leaf out of Allyson Rowe’s book, it either will happen or it won’t and worrying about it only makes the problem worse.

    I once had a twenty-nine year old romantic attachment whom I dropped and the next thing, her Mother was phoning my buddy (as I was incognito) saying that her daughter had had no less then nineteen proposals of marriage which she had rejected but that I, Opus was ‘the one’. I feel very sorry for the woman who is now no longer twenty-nine nor is she married but went but being an only child her parents left everything to her and so she is now well heeled and all that money might have been mine. The Lord truly works in mysterious ways and seems to have shafted me over that.

  80. Dalrock says:

    @DrTorch

    Wow. I still don’t see the connection between what IBB wrote and what dalrock followed up with. Dalrock’s follow up contained a lot of truths, I just don’t see them as a response to IBB.

    The primary thesis statement of the post is:

    innocentbystanderboston (IBB) made a fairly common argument, that women like Wendy Griffith and Allyson Rowe didn’t delay marriage in pursuit of feminist goals, but instead were forced to pursue feminist goals in their youth because they had no suitable marriage proposals

    I don’t see where IBB has contradicted that. Could you point it out to me?

  81. Otto says:

    …women like Wendy Griffith and Allyson Rowe didn’t delay marriage in pursuit of feminist goals, but instead were forced to pursue feminist goals in their youth because they had no suitable marriage proposals

    Isn’t this similar to the argument that cowardly men are forcing women to join the military?

  82. Anonymous Reader says:

    Second attempt to post SMP curve. Because, just because.

  83. The Question says:

    @Dalrock

    https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/

    Choice quote:

    “Johnson jokes that women her mom’s age seem to be waiting for their husbands to die so they can finally start their life. “I’ll get a call saying so-and-so kicked the bucket and sure enough, his widow is on a cruise around the world a week later with her girlfriends.”

    [D: Good find. Thanks!]

  84. Novaseeker says:

    Yeah I saw the Harper’s Bizarre article yesterday and to be honest it struck me at just how utterly professional women are at finding things to complain about.

    For a long time, men were badgered to hell and beyond by women in this culture to bare their feelings and so on. And now that they are doing that, women are upset at bearing the burden of having to listen to them. Literally this is a catch-22 scenario. It’s always been a bad idea to listen to women asking you to bare your feelings to them, but the whipsaw effect, and cultural self-contradiction, is just incredible in that article. It’s just a goldmine for it.

  85. Anonymous Reader says:

    Even a 48 year old woman with a good throwing arm can get a marriage proposal. Although it’s not clear what he looks like.

    http://thesmokinggun.com/buster/domestic-battery/pork-chop-update-109538

  86. Lost Patrol says:

    Those links from The Question and jg1 are perfect.

    Side by side, “Women continue to bear the burden of men’s emotional lives…”, but also are “driven to drink by a feeling that they have to match the boys chablis for chablis in the workplace, at client lunches and in the pub afterwards.”

    match the boys chablis for chablis

    HAHAHAHAHA! It’s a jungle out there! Watch your six!

  87. The Question says:

    @Dalrock

    Not that my two cents matters, but as a bachelor it’s BS like this that makes me completely uninterested in marriage at this point. THIS is how men are treated at old age after they’ve manned up and married those sluts. THIS is how men who follow the script are regarded. THIS is what women who try to shame men at 29 think of them at 69. THIS is what the society who bewails a lack of “real men” think is acceptable in media publications.

    @IBB – just as an FYI, this is why your suggestions mean nothing to men like me who hear women talk of delaying marriage. We don’t want them. That woman who is uninterested in marriage at 24 and demands marriage at 31 will think precisely this at 69. No one in the church thinks this is inexcusable. No one is calling this out. No one cares. They’re all the same kind of women Abraham made his servant swear he would not get as a wife for his son Isaac. It was these kind of women Esau married and grieved Isaac and Rebecca; it was these kind of women that Rebecca told Isaac that if Jacob also married her life would not be worth living.

    As the saying goes, don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.

  88. Dalrock says:

    @Otto

    Isn’t this similar to the argument that cowardly men are forcing women to join the military?

    It is uncanny.

  89. Anon says:

    Novaseeker,

    Yeah I saw the Harper’s Bizarre article yesterday and to be honest it struck me at just how utterly professional women are at finding things to complain about

    This is one of the many reasons that AI is going to be a disaster for women. AI cannot be induced to indulge female complaints at the expense of productivity, logic, or efficiency, the way most human males can.

  90. 7817 says:

    This whole discussion is odd. Of course women only want the top 20%, for both the AF and BB sides of hypergamy.

    Saying that women are looking for marriage is weird. No, they aren’t looking for marriage to the normal men that would have them. Sure, I would have married that chaste supermodel lookalike when I was in my 20’s if there had been one, and if she had pursued me. That’s the same fantasy this is, except I know it’s a fantasy and admit it. Men that didn’t use that fantasy as an excuse to pump and dump everyone else aren’t getting any slack, so these women shouldn’t either.

    Strange hill to die on.

    At the same time, when I think about the work it has taken to understand the reality of the relationships currently, with all the misinformation out there, it’s amazing there are any intact marriages left. I would want to encourage a daughter to marry young and be respectful, committed and faithful to her husband. I know no one else IRL that thinks the way I do.

  91. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Allyson Rowe: “To be honest: Today, I just want to travel the world, overspend at Target, drink lots of coffee (bc without it I’m basically a 2 year old whose blankie is in the dryer), and cuddle puppies.”

    feeriker: Does that read like “wife material?”

    She sounds like a 3-year-old who thinks she’s so sophisticated, as compared to her 2-year-old sibling with the blankie in the dryer.

  92. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Opus, Allyson Rowe could well be mixed race. Perhaps a quarter African, instead of half.

  93. Anon says:

    IBB said,

    Thanks. Its okay. I’m not a woman. I am not going to get my panties in a twist over this. I’m a big boy.

    Except when your wife posts under your handle.

    There are a lot of readers here who are very “sensitive” on this subject.

    Vastly off-base accusations are always projection on the part of the accuser. It is pretty easy to get you to go off the deep end just by pointing out that the golden age of AF/BB maximization was for women a few years older than your daughters.

    Your daughters, of course, still have the option of marrying before age 25 with a low N. This will land them good husbands. But you don’t want that, as you want them to get enough AF.

  94. Oscar says:

    @ Joe

    Jesus does not chase after us. I just don’t see that in scripture. But if it is, I’d like those references. Maybe I’m just missing them.

    You are.

    Luke 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

    8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

  95. Frank K says:

    At the same time, when I think about the work it has taken to understand the reality of the relationships currently, with all the misinformation out there, it’s amazing there are any intact marriages left.

    Look at it this way. Right off the bat, half of them crater and wind up in divorce court. Of the other half, who knows how many are teetering on the edge. And then there are all the lousy marriages that don’t fall apart because they know they’ll be far worse off financially if they split, so they tough it out. I’d be surprised if more than 20% are “decent” marriages.

  96. BillyS says:

    Novaseeker,

    This may have been addressed, but you have one very bad idea in your comment about what IBB said. Those women are not necessarily worth as high a value as they think they are worth. That is the problem. Momentary beauty doesn’t guarantee sky high value. She may have strong value, but most women over value themselves, even those at the top of the scale.

  97. BillyS says:

    Joe,

    Why should I, as a single man in your daughter’s church (if it were so), be compelled to help her out, whoever owns the house?

    That is utter hogwash. I owe nothing to single ladies in the church, none of whom even know me. How many of them have helped me clean up my house? They could do that, yet not a peep about that. How many others is your daughter helping out?

    You have a huge flaw in your thinking once again.

  98. Joe says:

    BillyS says:
    May 4, 2019 at 12:55 am
    Joe,

    Why should I, as a single man in your daughter’s church (if it were so), be compelled to help her out, whoever owns the house?
    **********************************************************************

    Why should have my wife, as a single women at my Church, be compelled to have helped me paint my rent house, which I owned? After all, she owed me nothing, and didn’t even know my name when she ask and had only seen me around.
    Answer: She’s a kind, helpful person, and she was attracted to me. 18 months later we got married and now have been for 31 years.

    Working together and helping each other. It’s just one way people meet.

    She is still a kind, helpful person who goes out of her way to help others. My daughter helps countless people, guys and girls. As does my son. The world is a better place because of them. They have each changed people’s lives for the better.

  99. BillyS says:

    Sorry Joe. Your wife was interested in you then. That created her obligation.

    You still avoided my question. I am not interested in marrying any of the single women at my church. How many of the single men in your daughter’s church would be husband candidates for her? Your desire for her to have more beta orbiters is nice and selfish of you.

  100. BillyS says:

    Note Joe that those your daughter was close to could have some general application of reciprocity, but that would be because she would be part of a group that helped each other. Though we have a name for a group of two that do that which your daughter is successfully avoiding now.

    Have her contact me if she really wants someone to help take care of her, but I am certain I am well outside her target age range and I wouldn’t trust she would remain faithful to any commitment she did take to me if did really connect. You would certainly help her with the frivorce later I am sure too, though I don’t have as much left to steal so she would lack even that motive.

    ====

    AR,

    I am sure IBB will be there to help divorce rape the man her daughter chooses (if she ever does so), especially if he fails to be the perfect man like she expects.

  101. BillyS says:

    Anon,

    This is one of the many reasons that AI is going to be a disaster for women. AI cannot be induced to indulge female complaints at the expense of productivity, logic, or efficiency, the way most human males can.

    You trust AI too much and completely forget that humans control the rules that ultimately guide the AI. We are nowhere close to SkyNet yet.

  102. Novaseeker says:

    This may have been addressed, but you have one very bad idea in your comment about what IBB said. Those women are not necessarily worth as high a value as they think they are worth. That is the problem. Momentary beauty doesn’t guarantee sky high value. She may have strong value, but most women over value themselves, even those at the top of the scale.

    Billy —

    The point is that women will always have their peak SMV at that age. Always. No woman has a higher SMV at 35 than she does at 22. So a woman at 22 is looking at the world from her peak value, and she knows it’s her peak value as well … so she is extremely picky precisely because she is at her peak value and has the most market power at that age. Of course women are not all equally attractive — that’s clear. So an HB7 has higher SMV than an HB5 does, both being 22. But the 5s SMV at 22 will still be her personally highest SMV for her life, even if one might not characterize it as “objectively sky high”, it’s still the highest she will ever be, and she is aware of that and acts accordingly (ie, in an extremely selective way). In my use of “sky high” I was referring to HB7+, and I stand by that phrasing … in our culture’s SMP, a female HB7+ at 22 has a sky high SMV, objectively speaking.

    Now you may personally value other things and not see value there that the market assigns, and that is perfectly fine – everyone has his own way of assessing value. And of course MMV is different from SMV, although SMV is a large part of MMV for women due to how important looks are for men, even when selecting a wife. But her *objective*, market-assigned SMV at 22 if she is 7+ is “sky high”, as in higher than virtually every other female in the market, and she is well aware of that from the feedback the market gives her (male attention). She acts accordingly, just as women’s behavior begins to change once they are getting different feedback from the market as they age and they sense that their SMV and market power are weakening.

  103. wodansthane says:

    @Gaza
    This life track that you describe is the one I am fearful my youngest daughter could fall into. The always having to prove herself or not to miss out on an “experience”. Even if she stays pure all she’ll get is cats. I plan to show her your comment. Thanks for the illustration.

  104. Emperor Constantine says:

    All my local data points (nieces, young daughters of friends, etc.) suggest that women are absolutely not interested in getting married to anyone until their late 20s or 30s at the earliest. I don’t think most of them would accept a marriage proposal even from a wealthy, higher SMV older male, unless his SMV was exceptionally high relative to hers.

    So Dalrock and the majority of the commenter’s are right about this.

    We know what these women do in their 20s. They adjust their ASD (Anti-Slut Defenses) to work at years-long time scales, instead of just the few hours around a date.

    “I’m not a slut.”

    “I’m just having a series of boyfriends and those guys on Tinder don’t count.”

    “That guy I met on Instagram who paid for my trip to Cancun to meet him doesn’t count because that was only a weekend.”

    For someone who has a daughter in their 20s, this is a harsh, uncomfortable truth.

    Social media is increasing the distortions of a women’s self-perceived SMV on a global scale, as discussed in this Red Man Group episode:

    With Instagram, the sexual marketplace is now global. I once had a date with a young woman in Budapest when I was there on business. She was just returning from a weekend trip in Paris and I approached her in the airport. High SMV women get offers from all over the planet to meet men all over the planet, all-expenses paid trips, so the hookup market is essentially going global.

    In the video, Andrew Tate points out that Western men used to think they could go to Ukraine or Romania and find a woman untouched by feminism or the global sexual marketplace. Ubiquitous cell phones and social media make these women aware of that global market and their relative SMV in it.

    Given the lack of any familial, cultural, or religious pushback except from a tiny minority of us, the situation we’re in is only going to get worse. The ray of hope is, oddly enough, Andrew Tate. His SMV is so high that women actively go after him. Men can clearly increase their attraction levels via diet, exercise, learning game, becoming interesting, etc. etc. and that’s about the only option at the moment to have a personal impact.

    Some days I think Larry Kummer is an optimist.

  105. Rachel says:

    i have a bunch of teenage daughters. I try to teach them to respect their father and men in general, like their youth group leader who recently nearly died in the Air Force yet still laughs with them every Friday night. I know I have been a jerk here but I want my daughters to be better than me. I had a discussion with my nineteen year old about ‘settling’ yesterday. Deti says we shouldn’t settle (i think) -I mean who wants a woman who isn’t totally into them. I think he is right. My 19 yr old currently has 2 men interested. One is autistic, he is in her high school class and she treats him like a human being. Since all the other girls treat him like crap she worries that she is encouraging him. Being hypergamous, she doesn’t even see him as a man. The other is a normal shy guy. He appears to be a solid Christian but we don’t know since she only met him at a Christian camp. I have warned her not to dismiss him but he doesn’t push her buttons. Is he the one and she should settle or is he just the first guy she’s met and she doesn’t know any better. I honestly don’t know.

  106. BillyS,

    I am sure IBB will be there to help divorce rape the man her daughter chooses (if she ever does so), especially if he fails to be the perfect man like she expects.

    Give the men and women on this forum (who have daughters) more credit than that.

  107. Rachel,

    The other is a normal shy guy. He appears to be a solid Christian but we don’t know since she only met him at a Christian camp. I have warned her not to dismiss him but he doesn’t push her buttons. Is he the one and she should settle or is he just the first guy she’s met and she doesn’t know any better. I honestly don’t know.

    You just let these things take their course. Maybe the normal-shy-guy is interested in your daughter, and maybe he isn’t. We don’t have enough data points yet. If she is still a teen ager, she is still trying to figure out how the world is.

  108. Rachel says:

    Thanks, IBB, he may not be interested, but she is barely communicating with him because she doesn’t want to lead him on – is that just one of those many little choices that lead to spinsterhood?

  109. Swanny River says:

    Details matter and the question is a good one Rachel. Thanks to Dalrock for bringing up the topic with his insight.
    “Not wanting to lead him on.” I hated hearing women talk like that back during singleness. Yes, good intentions and all, blah, blah.

  110. Opus says:

    I was the worse for wear for drink but inspired in my 06.46 comment but in my inebriation I somehow managed to erase the word Lezzer for that was what the former twenty-nine year old became and I know this as I saw her cooing over this other woman (I being obscured from her view as I was on the train and she on the platform) in unmistakable Lezzie fashion. It is all rather sad – and she was really slim too.

    What I wanted now to say is: in an age when women can see the likes of late thirty-something would-be lawyer Amal daughter of immigrants marry Irish confirmed bachelor and Cary Grant lookalike George and also see three times married ‘yacht-girl’ and part time actress of mixed race marry a Prince three years younger than her and thus arise to the position of Duchess of Slutsex, is it any wonder women will hold out that little bit longer for their Prince (Harry) – even though he is demonstrably even more stupid than Trump-hating Mr Clooney and gullible and were he anything but a Prince would be racially-abused as a Ginger (phew – thank god I got those letters the right way round) as that is still acceptable.

    They need to apply the Secretary Rule also known as the Stopping Rule and as I understand it and in a curve looking much like a woman’s SMV curve the optimal time to make the decision is at about the one third mark which in terms of SMV means by say twenty-five. After that the chances of a better match decline to zero. Amal and Meghan have done the equivalent of winning the lottery by beating the odds.

  111. BillyS says:

    Novaseeker,

    The point still is that women are expecting more than they can pull, however high their SMV and therefore perceived MMV is. It is not as high as they think. That is one of the reasons they are not really open to marriage proposals at a younger age.

    I would agree many others are complicit in this error, but it is still an error and she is not as open to marriage as she may later claim, whatever is said.

    IBB,

    You have demonstrated your own worship of your daughters over the time of your posts here. Many show you want them to experience it all and I see no reason you would not support them if any husband did not turn out to be Mr. Perfect. Or even if he was but she just grew tired of it.

    Wanting them to have several sexual experiences now is a part of this as well. You don’t bring it up all the time, but I read quite a few of the comments here and it comes up.

    Rachel,

    She should control herself, but she needs to prepare her own mind better as well. Getting her to overcome the social programming of the world will be hard, especially if you have sacrificed her to it by putting her in government schools as it seems.

    She has to decide for herself that the world is not worth following, but that is going to be quite hard if she is hip deep into it, whatever youth group influence she may or may not have. The youth leader may actually be a problem ultimately because he could be a major AMOG of the group, setting unrealistic expectations in her mind due to his existence and being so much better than the other choices she sees.

    The mind is very powerful and hers could easily lead her astray and most likely will, given the world we all live in today.

    Have you ever discussed in depth with her what she is attracted to, not just what is close? Surely some young men pull at her, even if she is not that pulled. No attraction there likely indicates she is headed down the “have more experiences first” track.

  112. BillyS says:

    I should add that I doubt your daughter would admit being fickle in such a potential situation IBB. She would instead push all the right buttons to get you to care about her more than the scum she was married to, whatever the true situation. You have not indicated questioning your daughter(s) even once.

  113. Splashman says:

    Anon, your osbsession with IBB is kinda creepy. Give it up.

  114. Splashman says:

    @Notabene, my two oldest are girls. One is at marriage age (19), the other will be in a couple years.

    From the time they were 8 or so, I have taught them about God, utilizing the Bible. Over and over and over, “God designed Eve as a helper for Adam. God designed you as a helper for your husband.” We’ve never watched TV, but we watch plenty of movies, and we frequently pause the movie to talk about what we’re seeing. “Is she focusing on being a helper? NO, she’s competing with him; it’s a power struggle, just like Eve did. What happens when you go against God’s design for your life? That’s right, bad things happen. To expect otherwise is insane.” At this point, I don’t even have to point these things out — they do it for me. Same thing when we hear about an acquaintance getting divorced or an unmarried gal getting pregnant — I use every opportunity to talk about God and his plan for our lives.

    And thanks to Dalrock and others opening my eyes to a few things, I’ve also constantly taught them to be realistic about their SMV/MMV. They are both slender and in good shape, are intelligent but not nerdy, have developed musical talents, are good cooks, work hard maintaining our home and property, are self-disciplined in areas like sleep and eating and chores, get along great with their siblings, have generally pleasant attitudes, and — drumroll, please — aren’t on social media AT ALL. Yet I don’t consider them princesses, and have worked hard to instill in them the idea that they don’t deserve anything more than what most of us would call a “good man” — a man who fears God, works hard, and has some sort of plan for his life. I’m a tradesman, so I definitely don’t consider tradesmen to be beneath them.

    Blah blah blah. Just wanted to encourage Notabene, because it’s a tough road. Even my own extended family disagrees with my goal.

  115. BillyS says:

    That sounds good Splashman, though you will also face the risk they “wake up” some day and “realize” how much you “stole” from them by keeping them away from social media and such. Too many Christian young women do that and even churches fail to confront that foolish attitude.

    I pray your daughters keep what you have instilled in them in spite of the world.

  116. Anon says:

    Splashman,

    Don’t be a pearl-clutcher.

    Plus, to correct you, IBB (Mrs. IBB to be precise) initiated the argument a few threads ago, when she insisted that most women are a) against feminism, and b) actively advancing civilization, in response to a comment I made.

    Get a clue.

  117. feeriker says:

    The point still is that women are expecting more than they can pull, however high their SMV and therefore perceived MMV is. It is not as high as they think. That is one of the reasons they are not really open to marriage proposals at a younger age.

    I would agree many others are complicit in this error, but it is still an error and she is not as open to marriage as she may later claim, whatever is said.

    The other side of the coin is that no matter how high her SMV and no matter what her attitude toward marriage, the attitude of ever-growing numbers of men today even in her own SMV/MMV range is that marrying her is a ridiculously risky proposition that is just out the question.

    Remember that saying “No matter how beautiful she is, just remember that some guy, somewhere is sick and tired of her shit.”

    IBB,

    You have demonstrated your own worship of your daughters over the time of your posts here. Many show you want them to experience it all and I see no reason you would not support them if any husband did not turn out to be Mr. Perfect. Or even if he was but she just grew tired of it.

    Yup. Anyone who demonstrates himself to be a tradcon DODO is someone any man interested in getting married should avoid like the plague having as a FiL. Guaranteed to make the already mine-filled modern marriage life an even more intolerable hazard.

  118. Moses says:

    I recently had dinner with an old friend I hadn’t seen in >10 years. He has a teenage daughter.

    During the evening somehow the conversation turned out guidance for our daughters. He wants his daughter to be a CEO and says she needs to “sow her wild oats” (his words for the carousel) with lots of sexual partners before settling down. Yes, he wants her to do this.

    I was shocked. Shocked I tell you.

    It was then that I realized how deeply the corruption has perverted our society. His wife is a housewife btw to greatly enjoys him bringing home the big bucks by working all the time.

  119. Novaseeker says:

    During the evening somehow the conversation turned out guidance for our daughters. He wants his daughter to be a CEO and says she needs to “sow her wild oats” (his words for the carousel) with lots of sexual partners before settling down. Yes, he wants her to do this.

    Remember, though. According to what is being argued here, your friend *really* wants his daughter to get her MRS degree. The only reason he is saying what he is saying is because (1) he thinks her chances of finding a suitable MRS degree husband in the short term to match her sky high value are small (i.e., a movie star or 6’2″ superfit genetically handsome established neurosurgeon) and (2) he is therefore trying to “save face” in advance by claiming he actually *wants* her to carousel ride and pursue a high stakes career. This is all just a facade — he really wants her to get her MRS degree.

  120. Scott says:

    Once I read this article about something netfilx administrators call “the Napleon Dynmamite Problem”. Netfilx was offering some kind of reward for anyone who could solve it.

    Basiclally if you like that particular movie, if predicts nothing else (of value to them) about you. So if you watch it, and rate it favorably, the algorithm can’t offer you any other movies to watch.

    Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world works like that now, and I (and many others around here) are like the people who liked the movie. Nothing in popular or normative culture really amuses me, save but a few quirky obscure 80s alternative bands and so on. But the search engines, my emai ads, the the side bar socia media suugested reading never gets my attention.

    Marriage proposals in statiums? FAKE marriage proposals in statiums? Articles and youtube channels about 30 something single Christian girls rationalizing their life path? All I want to do is ranching/farming stuff out here in middle of nowhere and watch my kids grow up.

  121. feministhater says:

    All I want to do is ranching/farming stuff out here in middle of nowhere and watch my kids grow up.

    Enjoy the peace. Getting involved in the current social mores of the world at large is just a bad decision. Be grateful for the small things; the peace, the quiet and the close to drama free life that you have.

  122. Frank K says:

    Basiclally if you like that particular movie, if predicts nothing else (of value to them) about you. So if you watch it, and rate it favorably, the algorithm can’t offer you any other movies to watch.

    I have found the Netflix algorithm to be risibly bad. It constantly recommends stuff I would never watch. I have to find things I want to watch on my own, and they are few and far between.

  123. Frank K says:

    During the evening somehow the conversation turned out guidance for our daughters. He wants his daughter to be a CEO and says she needs to “sow her wild oats” (his words for the carousel) with lots of sexual partners before settling down. Yes, he wants her to do this.

    I’ve never had anyone tell me he wants his daughter to “sow her wild oats”, not even my progressive relatives, though some of them celebrate when their daughters have a baby out of wedlock, so I guess they are OK with the carousel thing, they just don’t talk about it,

  124. Anonymous Reader says:

    Moses
    During the evening somehow the conversation turned out guidance for our daughters. He wants his daughter to be a CEO and says she needs to “sow her wild oats” (his words for the carousel) with lots of sexual partners before settling down.

    He’s brainwashed by the Sheryl Sandberg mindset. This is the logical conclusion of 20th century feminism blank-slate beliefs. Here is the quote from her book “Lean In” that sums it up:

    “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

    “Lean in” sold a lot of copies, it’s popular. This is the standard track for girls from high school through their 30’s in the modern world. The facts don’t matter, it’s all about emotional belief.

    Again, facts do not matter. The feelze trump all. A man puts on a dress, takes hormones, claims to be a woman? “He” is a woman! For a different version of this see the case of Caster Semenya, an unfortunate person with a rare birth defect, who is the cause du jour of feminists in the world of sport.

  125. Splashman says:

    @Anon, I didn’t make any claim as to who started it. Debate IBB all you like, just give up your tiresome obsession which requires you to mention your theory at every opportunity.

  126. Emperor Constantine says:

    @Dalrock @LarryKummer

    Game. Set. Match.

    “Typically, becoming a parent has an enormous impact on your health, your career and your ability to party. It’s already bad enough that those burdens are more likely to be shouldered by mothers than fathers. The fact that women end the childless part of our lives earlier than our male partners is just salt in the wound. And looking even farther down the line, the bigger the age difference, the more likely that it will be women who take care of their male partners in old age.”

  127. Warthog says:

    @TheQuestion “It’s clear in the Bible it was the fathers who selected husbands for their daughters and wives for their sons. ”

    Uh, no. It’s clear that is one of about 30 methods of finding a bride shown in Scripture. There are only three laws on the subject:
    * must keep marriage bed pure
    * must marry within the covenant
    * the father can nullify a wedding vow (so his consent beforehand is wise to obtain)

  128. BillyS says:

    Attack the men for the choices of 23 year olds!

  129. BillyS says:

    Warthog,

    Other methods are allowed, but where are they shown as a good thing?

  130. Anon says:

    “Where do 50-year-old men get the strange impression that they can date 23-year-olds?”

    23 is a bit of a stretch for all but the topmost 50 year olds, but 28 is certainly available to above-average men age 50.

    What is far more egregious is that some women think they can actually be ‘cougars’. That is the true inversion not supported by market realities. See the male-female SMV chart in AR’s comment above.

  131. feeriker says:

    “Where do 50-year-old men get the strange impression that they can date 23-year-olds?”

    23 is a bit of a stretch for all but the topmost 50 year olds, but 28 is certainly available to above-average men age 50.

    This is where we remind ourselves that the Apex Fallacy is a key component of feminism.

  132. Otto says:

    The “apex fallacy” in this case being: because SOME 50 year old men date 23 year old women (the apex men) , ALL men are trying to date 23 year old women.

  133. Moses,

    He wants his daughter to be a CEO and says she needs to “sow her wild oats” (his words for the carousel) with lots of sexual partners before settling down. Yes, he wants her to do this.

    I’m calling bullshit. He may want his daughter to run a company (that is probably true) but no father wants his daughter to “sow her wild oats.” I’m not buying it and I don’t think anyone here is either.

  134. TheTraveler says:

    The relatively few lads today “fightin’ ’em off with a stick,” would have been in the same position several generations ago, when they were known as “lady-killers.”

    Back then, soon after high school, decent/serious young women lost interest in such guys because they weren’t a good bet for marriage. Good guys without lady-killer “game” saw their market value take off in their early 20s as women abandoned the unsuitable and sought a husband.

    The blame for the big change lies with parents and religious so-called “leaders” for buying into feminism and “modern morality.” Those teaching younger generations of women to waste their lives had it both ways, when feminism first took root: you could screech “up the sisterhood,” from the safety of an early marriage.

  135. The relatively few lads today “fightin’ ’em off with a stick,” would have been in the same position several generations ago, when they were known as “lady-killers.”

    Back then, soon after high school, decent/serious young women lost interest in such guys because they weren’t a good bet for marriage. Good guys without lady-killer “game” saw their market value take off in their early 20s as women abandoned the unsuitable and sought a husband.

    We are not talking about the same guys.

    The ones who have to “fight ’em off with a stick” in high school are NOT the ones the 22 year old super hottie with an SMV of 9 are willing to marry. At 16, you want to fuck the super-hot bad boy who is going to wind up in jail in the next 10 years. SMV is all that matters for fucking. That boy’s MMV is about, 0. At 22, hypergamy has kicked in and you want to MARRY the 32 year old medical doctor with his own practice and drives a nine-series BMW. MMV is all that matters for marriage and breeding. That same 32 year old medical doctor, that 16 year old girl would have given the young man the TIME OF DAY in high school. He was a nerd. Scoring 1600 on the SAT is not sexually attractive but it did give Mark Zuckerberg an MMV of 10.

    As fathers, its critically important to understand the importance of hypergamy. All our daughters are (eventually) going to be hypergamous. Rollo would be the first one to say that. So it would be best for fathers (if we want the daughters to marry younger to kind and good providing husbands) to Sheppard the girls away from the bad-boys and encourage the young lady to think long-term-plan pretty early. I do believe the majority (perhaps all) of the parents with daughters on this thread are accomplishing that.

  136. Here is Captain Marvel (before she was Captain Marvel) telling a distant cousin of a certain Senator of New York, why she should value an MMV or 10 far more than she values an SMV of 10.

    hypergamy 101

  137. Emperor Constantine says:

    @IBB

    “At 22, hypergamy has kicked in and you want to MARRY the 32 year old medical doctor with his own practice and drives a nine-series BMW.”

    I could be wrong but that is not what I am hearing or seeing in my tiny part of the world.

    Girls these days aren’t interested in marrying until about age 30. It’s really not even close.

  138. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    At 22, hypergamy has kicked in and you want to MARRY the 32 year old medical doctor with his own practice and drives a nine-series BMW.

    Yet in reality the median age of a woman in the US at first marriage is 27. Therefore some women are not marrying until the age of 30+.

    Please explain, but without logical fallacies.

  139. Anonymous Reader says:

    Emperor Constantine
    I could be wrong but that is not what I am hearing or seeing in my tiny part of the world.

    +1
    Even the churchgoing girls in my extended social circle are not marrying until 25 at the earliest, with some rare and notable exceptions.

  140. Anonymous Reader says:

    @IBB
    Zuckerber’s SAT score had nothing to do with his MMV. You are deluded if you truly believe that.

  141. Anonymous Reader says:

    TheTraveler
    The relatively few lads today “fightin’ ’em off with a stick,” would have been in the same position several generations ago, when they were known as “lady-killers.”

    How old are you?

  142. Anonymous Reader says:

    Otto
    The “apex fallacy” in this case being: because SOME 50 year old men date 23 year old women (the apex men) , ALL men are trying to date 23 year old women.

    Possibly so, But check the age of the woman making the claim. This is likely just intra-female competition plus solipsism with a side of sour grapes; “Why would those mature men go for those young, ignorant sluts. Those men need a real woman, like me> ”

    We will probably be seeing, hearing and reading more stuff of this sort in the years to come, as a variation on the perennial “Where have all the good men GONE?” wails.

  143. AR,

    Zuckerber’s SAT score had nothing to do with his MMV. You are deluded if you truly believe that.

    Zuckerberg’s perfect SAT score was a perfect marker for his eventual MMV.

    Unless your name is Felicity Huffman (and you bribe the test proctor to not only give your daughter extra time to take the SAT but also demand that the proctor CORRECT her incorrect answers to ensure admission into Yale) the SAT and the ACT are not much more than IQ tests. They are the best thing we have got to “standardize” a mathematical measurement of a person’s IQ. And universities demand that level of IQ standardization because universities believe (correctly) that high school teachers “grade-inflate” the charismatic students whom are popular, the students that they like. So an admissions office can’t really trust transcripts. It is not a coincidence that a 33 year old man who is now worth $46 billion dollars (that is million with a B) just happened to score perfectly on the SAT. He got nothing wrong. There was nothing that he was going to learn at Harvard University that would have been any value to him in the career he was about to create for himself. Zuckerberg was beyond higher education before he even took his first class.

    Mark Zuckerberg’s MMV was 10. And it was an Asian girl who was smart enough to value his MMV. And that is assuming (correctly) that the young man has full blown Asperger’s Syndrome. He’s not the only billionaire genius with that affliction. Dr Mike Burry (the man who created the “credit-default-swap” who ALSO is married to an Asian girl) and the man who founded Jet Blue airlines, they both also have Asperger’s. Although he was never diagnosed. I tend to think Steve Jobs also had it. These are incredibly smart, people, and this is the information age. And in the information age, intelligence (intelligence = problem solving cognitive ability and intelligence does NOT = book memorization) is the safest marker we have to determine who is going to wind up with the greatest share of wealth. He who can figure things out that other people haven’t figured out yet how to do, they make all the big bux.

    They are full blown nerds. There is nothing the least bit sexy about them and yet their wives wanted these men the minute they hypergamously started valuing MMV. You can choose to believe whatever you want to believe.

  144. Yet in reality the median age of a woman in the US at first marriage is 27. Therefore some women are not marrying until the age of 30+.

    Please explain, but without logical fallacies.

    Logical fallacies? You are the one who is not looking at the data logically.

    Stop obsessing over what the median age is for when a woman first gets married. That is an unimportant measurement given the “red pill claim” that I am making. Instead, what is the MMV of the man who marries a 22 year old girl with a SMV of 10? THAT is the data you should be looking at, not average age of first marriage.

    Now, there is no possible way to mathematically measure the MMV of these men. Its not possible. MMV only means something to the people in this forum. So we will have no data points to draw upon. But I would argue that the single women with the highest possible SMV, if full blown hypergamy has kicked in (and it kicks in real early), they are going to say yes to the dress at age 21 if an MMV of 10 goes down on bended knee. And she is going to know his MMV. And I guarantee you, she will say yes because of DREAD (that she will never get another offer even half as good.)

  145. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    Others with perfect SAT scores get nothing. You are deluded.

  146. Anon says:

    If you took all the SAT takers with perfect scores, and see where they end up career-wise, most are not as wealthy as Zuckerberg. Most are in some esoteric research job and hence have little SMV and only BetaBux MMV.

    Check out a similar credential, the regeneron science prize given to the 40 top high-schoolers in America*. This is a very, very valuable credential to have for college admissions, and probably correlates to a stellar STEM career, but not real wealth beyond an upper-middle-class salary.

    https://student.societyforscience.org/regeneron-sts-2019-finalists

    *It seems that the scales are tipped in favor of women in order to engineer some female representation, but somehow there is no race-based AA, as there are zero blacks, zero Hispanics, and the few whites appear to be Jewish. Asian domination is total, in at least this metric.

  147. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    SAT and the ACT are not much more than IQ tests.

    Not as much as they used to be. However, are you asserting that MMV consists solely of IQ?

    It is not a coincidence that a 33 year old man who is now worth $46 billion dollars (that is million with a B) just happened to score perfectly on the SAT.

    Correlation is not causation.

    How many perfect SAT scoring individuals are also worth billions? Stop being silly.

  148. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Stop obsessing over what the median age is for when a woman first gets married.

    Why? Because you say so?

    That is an unimportant measurement given the “red pill claim” that I am making.

    You are not making a red pill claim. You are White Knighting.

    Instead, what is the MMV of the man who marries a 22 year old girl with a SMV of 10?

    In the US 22 year old girls generally don’t marry anyone. Therefore your fantasy is moot. Also, that is why the median age of women at their first marriage is 27. Do you understand what “median” means? When the median age of women at first marriage is 28, what excuse will you offer then?

    THAT is the data you should be looking at, not average age of first marriage.

    You are confusing your fantasies with data. They are not at all the same thing. Not even close.

  149. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Mark Zuckerberg’s MMV was 10. And it was an Asian girl who was smart enough to value his MMV.

    So? She is very average looking. Is there a point to all this emotional word salad?

  150. Anon says:

    It is not a coincidence that a 33 year old man who is now worth $46 billion dollars (that is million with a B) just happened to score perfectly on the SAT.

    I am quite certain that Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Jeff Bezos, Larry Page, and Sergey Brin (all of whom became multi-billionaires, and only Ellison was above 30 when he got there) did not have anything close to perfect SAT scores.

    A collection of people with perfect SAT scores, in general, will look like this :

    https://student.societyforscience.org/regeneron-sts-2019-finalists

    Almost none of these STEM supergeniuses will become billionaires. Most will become PhD researchers or professors, generating a lot of patents. That is a prestigious UMC career. But it is not high MMV and certainly not a path to billionairehood.

    It is amazing that such absurd points are being made by a regular.

  151. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB fantasy:
    But I would argue that the single women with the highest possible SMV, if full blown hypergamy has kicked in (and it kicks in real early), they are going to say yes to the dress at age 21 if an MMV of 10 goes down on bended knee.

    Few 21 year olds get married in the US now [1].That is why the median age at first marriage for American girls is 27. Reality does not agree with your fantasy. Consider accepting reality, rather than persisting in White Knight fantasy.

    [1} There is a 21 year old girl in my social circle, the daughter of a friend, who is getting married next month. She is the only one of that age doing so She is in the lower middle class with a full time job, and so is her fiance’. I personally believe this to be a very good thing for both of them.

    However, the college girls are universally appalled, including those that regularly go to church. I have heard, while being the invisible Grey Man, such things as “Eew! She hasn’t lived her life at all yet, what’s she thinking?”. This reaction is not unusual, in the real world where I live.

  152. 7817 says:

    IBB:

    Stop obsessing over what the median age is for when a woman first gets married. That is an unimportant measurement given the “red pill claim” that I am making. Instead, what is the MMV of the man who marries a 22 year old girl with a SMV of 10? THAT is the data you should be looking at, not average age of first marriage.

    This is meaningless. There are so few men out there that women consider perfect 10’s that your point doesn’t matter at all, except to underline that women’s egos are dangerously inflated and the current system is broken.

    People love to complain about the men in this country, especially tradcons. The women are every bit as messed up as the men, but very few will call them out

  153. Spike says:

    When I was a young man, I put my education, finances and career in place. I considered being a ”boyfriend” (extended courtship) a waste of time. I did not have girlfriends.I looked to a future of marriage as my father had done.
    So I met young women, built relationships, asked pertinent questions and everything went well. Then I would ask her what her intentions were. Inevitably, I would get a look of shock, of eyes glazing over, and a very nervous set of excuses followed by patronizing laughter about how I ”shouldn’t be thinking about that, because I’m definitely not ready…”.
    Eventually I found someone who said, ”Yes” and am married with family. Not blissfully well, not horribly badly. Sometimes the pendulum swings those ways. That’s marriage.

    Forward one generation. My son has concentrated on his education, career and finances. He tired quickly of being a ”boyfriend” (despite his father’s admonitions about not being one). So he got serious.
    His relationships would go well, right up to the point he would ask the young lady in question what her future plans were. Inevitably, he was met with shock, nervous laughter, eyes glazing over and patronizing laughter about how he ”’shouldn’t be thinking about that, because I’m definitely not ready…”.
    For every statistic Dalrock has put up here, there is an anecdotal story to back it up. Women are delaying marriage. They have been doing it for at least 2 generations now. They are delaying it because their hypergamy dictates that the young men that ask them aren’t worthy of them.

  154. 7817 says:

    what is the MMV of the man who marries a 22 year old girl with a SMV of 10? THAT is the data you should be looking at, not average age of first marriage.

    Apex fallacy anyone?

    If marriage is only for the elite, then who cares? That’s tradcon in a nutshell, though most of them haven’t thought it through far enough to understand. They just know they despise men that women aren’t interested in.

  155. 7817 says:

    Women are delaying marriage. They have been doing it for at least 2 generations now. They are delaying it because their hypergamy dictates that the young men that ask them aren’t worthy of them.

    This is what is so galling about the argument IBB is making. It boils down to “Be Tom Brady or be single until a woman gets off the cock carousel.”

  156. 7817,

    This is what is so galling about the argument IBB is making. It boils down to “Be Tom Brady or be single until a woman gets off the cock carousel.”

    It IS galling. I didn’t say that this was RIGHT. I am only saying that this is what it IS. This is happening. Don’t you (or any of you) confuse for one second, my acknowledging that what is happening is right or good or just. Too many of you assume too much and we all know what it makes you when you assume.

    Part of being red pill is accepting reality no matter how painful. “Dread” is a real thing. Its a real thing that women (particularly hypergamous women with very high SMVs) experience. And women with the highest SMVs truly “Dread” saying NO to Tom Brady. They dread it so much that it will not happen.

    Now I didn’t make up the feminist inspired rules that says its okay that only the top 1% of males are allowed to marry the 22 year old with the SMV of 10. That was not my decision making. And I don’t defend that logic. I only acknowledge it. The rest, we have to work to change.

  157. 7817,

    If marriage is only for the elite, then who cares?

    All of us should care. But it was Charles Murray who documented much of the data describing how much of this was happening.

    Damn good read gentlemen. Go to the library, you won’t put the book down.

    That’s tradcon in a nutshell, though most of them haven’t thought it through far enough to understand. They just know they despise men that women aren’t interested in.

    No. What is tradcon (in a nutshell) is DEFENDING this un-holy behavior. I am not going to do that. I just acknowledge it. Our system is broken and wounded and shitty. And we know that (ultimately) it is feminism that is to be blamed. But this un-holy alliance between feminism and tradcons justifies this cock-carrousel behavior.

  158. Anon,

    Almost none of these STEM supergeniuses will become billionaires. Most will become PhD researchers or professors, generating a lot of patents. That is a prestigious UMC career. But it is not high MMV and certainly not a path to billionairehood.

    PhD researchers and professors who generate lots of patents and have a prestigious UMC career most certainly IS high MMV. No, not a 10. But its an 8. And (because the system is broken and wounded and shitty) the MMV of 8 male is not likely to marry the SMV of 10 22 year old female. But he most certainly is deserving of her.

  159. 7817 says:

    Part of being red pill is accepting reality no matter how painful.

    Right, I guess I don’t disagree with your argument now, it’s just such a round a bout way of coming at it that it initially looks like you are white knighting. Never seen someone make this particular point before in quite this way.

  160. 7817,

    Right, I guess I don’t disagree with your argument now

    Thank you.

    it’s just such a round a bout way of coming at it that it initially looks like you are white knighting. Never seen someone make this particular point before in quite this way.

    I am trying to “write well.” In my attempts at “writing well” I go over some very serious high hurdles of logic in order to make my point. When I do that, people make assumptions about the point I am making that they shouldn’t make. Novaseeker was the first to get the point I was aiming. I believe I have got there with you now. Maybe the others will join us eventually?

  161. Anon says:

    IBB,

    PhD researchers and professors who generate lots of patents and have a prestigious UMC career most certainly IS high MMV.

    Not if the guy is nerdy. And yes, I mean MMV, not merely SMV. There are certain things money cannot compensate for in the current MMP.

    I guarantee if such a man age 29 wanted to marry your daughter at age 24, not only would she say no on account of his nerdiness even if he has a PhD from MIT, but even you would agree with her, as she has not yet sampled enough alpha cocks (i.e. college athletes, musicians, bartenders).

  162. 7817 says:

    If you’re not Tom Brady level they won’t marry you until they are past their prime, because who knows, Tom Brady might ask.

    Is this your point?

    If so, I agree.

    In the meantime they’ll have fun/ sex with the most exciting guys they can find, after all, they have to wait, but they don’t have to be bored…

  163. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    I am trying to “write well”

    You are writing in circles and moving goalposts.

    In my attempts at “writing well” I go over some very serious high hurdles of logic in order to make my point.

    You drag in logical fallacies routinely, thereby tripping over the very lowest of “hurdles of logic”.

    Starting from “women in their early 20s do not marry because no one asks them” you have finally squirmed around to “women in their early 20’s do not marry because no Apex Alpha asks them”. That is not quite as ridiculous as the first hopeless position.

    But the fact of the matter is, girls in the US generally get married when they want to, and they want to around the age of 25+. That is why the median age of first marriage is 27. Your fantasies do not apply to reality, your attempts to justify modern women riding the cock carousel are hilariously thin and your habit of arguing from pure emotion is risible.

    Novaseeker was the first to get the point I was aiming.

    He also stated that you are wrong. Did you miss that part?

    Once again: explain why the median age of women at first marriage in the US is 27.
    Do not use fallacies.

  164. Anon says:

    Once again: explain why the median age of women at first marriage in the US is 27.

    28, actually, and drifting towards 29. Dalrock had this up just two articles ago :

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2019/05/01/the-season-of-singleness/

    IBB just wants to rationalize how his daughter(s) carousel riding is somehow not introducing risk into their later marriage prospects and greatly compromising his probability of having grandchildren. To consider this risk, and how he can’t really make them get off the carousel, makes him go off the deep end.

    Dalrock’s Law : The more obvious a fact one is in denial of, the more theatrical and strange their rationalizations become.

  165. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    Right, I guess I don’t disagree with your argument now, it’s just such a round a bout way of coming at it that it initially looks like you are white knighting. Never seen someone make this particular point before in quite this way.

    IBB is just bloviating about this graph, but from the female-centric point of view. Don’t be confused by the emotional word salad.

  166. 7817,

    If you’re not Tom Brady level they won’t marry you until they are past their prime, because who knows, Tom Brady might ask.

    Is this your point?

    If so, I agree.

    Exactly. Hailey Baldwin got married with her SMV of 10 at age 21 (or 22) because Beiber was her husband to be and she DREADED the possibility that she will not have it any better than that. Same is true for Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus marrying Chris Hemsworth’s younger brother, Liam. Both very young ladies knew, that was probably the best they were going to get and they DREADED some other lady taking their best offer from them.

    There was a time (maybe not too many decades ago) that an SMV of 10 at age 22, she might have married an SMV of 5 man because he “appeared” to have a MMV of 7 or 8. And she didn’t want to risk the possibility of NO husband. Quite often, take the first offer because she DREADED that she might never have a husband. This created a natural incentive for young men to behave like gentlemen and not cads. Good behavior younger in life rewarded a young man with a young and pretty wife. Those days are gone and we need to bring them back.

    Nowadays, the penalty a woman risks for NOT marrying is minor. Assume she never gets an offer. Well, there is always the “Life of Julia” and marrying government for provisioning. Feminism has seen to it that the DREAD be removed from women worrying about never having a husband. Thus, marriage to government is critical for feminism in our welfare state. So none of this changes until we rid ourselves of the welfare state and re-create, DREAD.

  167. AR,

    Once again: explain why the median age of women at first marriage in the US is 27.

    I don’t have to. Novaseeker did when he explained my position better than I could.

    Did you miss that part?

  168. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB not explaining why the median age of women at first marriage in the US is 27:

    I don’t have to. Novaseeker did when he explained my position better than I could.

    You can’t explain it, probably for emotional reasons. a Novaseeker patiently explained the cock carousel and stated that your MRS degree babble is wrong.

    The median age of US women at first marriage is 27 because US women as a group do not want to get married before then.

  169. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    Not being willing to marry anyone not in Tom Brady’s class means they are not willing to marry. I am not sure most of them would even marry the perfect man, but it is irrelevant even if they would. They are choosing to not marry by making the standard be so high.

  170. BillyS says:

    So what is your clear point IBB? You have a chance to state it now and Dalrock might even make a post from it (I suspect).

    Are you now admitting women are putting off marriage to all but the tip top men? What are you telling/encouraging your daughters to do now? What implications will all this have on later marriage stability? Does sexual experience prior to marriage (name the level) have no impact on marriage stability?

  171. BillyS says:

    See the comments to this post for some good reasons the Zuc-man is not really as hot as claimed:

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/329776/#respond

    Though he does have plenty of dark traits and plenty of money, so he fits the picture completely, unlike most men.

  172. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Billy,

    So what is your clear point IBB? You have a chance to state it now and Dalrock might even make a post from it (I suspect).

    My point is this:

    #1) We largely live in a secular society (Godlessness)
    #2) Because we are so secular and have lost God and Christ, the curse of Eve is even more dangerous today than it ever was in the Garden simply because there are no consequences
    #3) Eve’s consequence-less curse in a Godless universe means you are born, you live 80, 90, or (at most) 100 years, and then you are dead. But when you are dead in a Godless universe, that is the END of the universe because it is the end of YOUR universe
    #4) So the only thing that matters (in a Godless universe) is how to maximize pleasure and joy out of those 32,850 days that you are alive to experience it
    #5) Women do not understand cause-and-effect BUT women (who may say they are Christian, but deep down they are truly Godless) DO understand that they only have 32,850 days where they are pleasured and special before the universe ends
    #6) Under those parameters of finite time, why give birth to unwanted children (when you can abort them consequence free) or ever consent to have sex with any man who brings less to the table than she does? There simply is no reason to do so specifically when she knows that men have a much higher sex drive and will be pursuing her for sex
    #7) In a Godless, consequence free universe, where the entire universe lasts only 32,850 days, where the only rational thing to do is maximize your personal joy and pleasure over those 32,850 days, and given that men (who want you for sex) are the ones who provide all the wealth to give you pleasure, the easiest way to maximize pleasure and joy is to (lawfully) monetize your pussy
    #8) Thus, the “gold-digging c–t” is born. We shall refer to her as GC for the remainder of this logic flow diagram. And the GC realizes that her advantage (or disadvantage) compared to OTHER Godless GC’s, is her SMV
    #9) A GC’s maximum SMV is probably around age 22 (or so, depending on the accuracy of Rollo’s chart)
    #10) So the 22 year old GC is in her strongest bargaining position (in the universe) to use marriage as a way to deliver the most pleasure and joy for the 24,820 days left in the universe BUT she is ONLY going to consent to marriage if the man brings so much MORE joy and pleasure to her than she could ever bring to anyone (his MMV must exceed her SMV) since the only thing that matters is her own personal comforts
    #11) All things being equal, she would rather DELAY and PROLONG the process of getting married as much as she can to allow her to “maximize her options” (ride the cock carrousel) provided she can keep her SMV high but she DREADS another GC with a high SMV swooping down and taking away a marriage offer from such a high MMV
    #12) Out of sheer DREAD (that he might find someone else), she says “I do” at age 22 simply because she is not willing to gamble the 24,820 days remaining in the universe on another man she can market her pussy to whose MMV may not exceed what she currently has available

    We all have a limited amount of time. The GC is a sociopath but there is a certain level of logic to the life of a sociopath if you understand what motivates the GC (joy and pleasure.) In that sense, the high MMV male provides to the GC (to her EXCLUSIVELY) for the longest period of time to maximize her personal joy and pleasure. But DREAD stipulates you need to “lock that down” ASAP before another GC comes along to market her pussy to him.

    Basically guys, you can’t get married to a young SMV 10 because your MMV sux. You don’t bring enough to the table, Sorry. After several decades on this planet, that is as Red Pill as I can describe it

  173. 7817 says:

    Basically guys, you can’t get married to a young SMV 10 because your MMV sux.

    Almost no one can.

  174. feministhater says:

    You’re not worthy of the pussy guys. That’s why.

    The pussy is an amoral leech that values you purely based on your status, earning power and looks. Why you would marry one of these vain creatures is beyond me but, as IBB explains, that is the sole reason for why they will never marry young to anyone but the apex alphas with loads of money.

    IBB thinks he is being smart but what he is explaining is not someone you would get married to, is it? No, of course not. If that is what women are… you are infinity better off refraining from entering into an insane marital contract with them.

    If this is truly how women think, I cannot thank them enough for not seeking marriage. They are doing you all a great big favour.

  175. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    If this is truly how women think, I cannot thank them enough for not seeking marriage. They are doing you all a great big favour.

    Not all women. Just the GCs. Unfortunately, there are far too many GCs. The GCs are legion for they are many.

  176. feministhater says:

    Just remember guys….

  177. feministhater says:

    Not all women. Just the GCs. Unfortunately, there are far too many GCs. The GCs are legion for they are many.

    Okay, sure. The reason that the marriage age is delayed by women is that they are amoral, gold digging whores.

    Thank you for clearing that up, phew. Was a close call there.

  178. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    Okay, sure. The reason that the marriage age is delayed by women is that they are amoral, gold digging whores.

    Close. Almost. But not quite perfect.

    The reason that the marriage age is delayed by GCs is that they are amoral, gold digging whores who have not been given a marriage offer (yet) by such a high MMV that they would DREAD losing him to another GC.

    Details matter.

  179. Joe2 says:

    Once again: explain why the median age of women at first marriage in the US is 27.

    Why is MEDIAN the most appropriate metric to use? Median is simply the middle value within a range of numbers. The MEAN (average value) and MODE (most frequent value) as well as RANGE (difference between the largest and smallest number) or in this case the difference in age between the oldest and youngest to get married for the first time would also provide some insight on trends in first marriages. The data for such calculations should be available because the same data is used to determine the median.

  180. feministhater says:

    Details matter.

    Sure. Details matter but nothing you have stated is anything new. Everyone here knows that the expectations of women are at all time high, that most men simply cannot meet them, and that therefore women choose, on their own accord, to delay marriage in order not to give their future husbands any more of their youth than they absolutely have to.

    Thus, IBB, we can now all see that the ‘no marriage proposals’ is a canard, exactly as Dalrock described, that this isn’t the reason for delayed marriage.

    The reason for delayed marriage is the choice of women to forego it as long as they can. They fully realise that they don’t all have the opportunity to marry the apex alpha, rather choosing to share them whilst they are young and then settle to boring, beta, boring, loyal dude when their eggs are about to go sour.

    So sure, IBB, one can say that women are not getting married because they are not getting proposals from princes and billionaires with 10 foot cocks, just as much as we could say that men don’t get married because they cannot find young, beautiful 11/10, virgin supermodels who will give him sex 20 times a day for life and never age… and of course, we’d be right but it wouldn’t explain the reason for delayed marriage and the ever increasing age for first marriages, not really.

  181. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    Sure. Details matter but nothing you have stated is anything new.

    Strange is it not, that so many of you were so willing to give me such a hard time for saying what is not new?

    So sure, IBB, one can say that women are not getting married because they are not getting proposals from princes and billionaires with 10 foot cocks, just as much as we could say that men don’t get married because they cannot find young, beautiful 11/10, virgin supermodels who will give him sex 20 times a day for life and never age… and of course, we’d be right but it wouldn’t explain the reason for delayed marriage and the ever increasing age for first marriages, not really.

    Or we can simplify and say that we live in almost an entirely secular society where selfish, sociopathic behavior, is not only logical and encouraged, it is often rewarded.

  182. feministhater says:

    Strange is it not, that so many of you were so willing to give me such a hard time for saying what is not new?

    Not really, when it took many of us being hard on you to get from ‘women don’t marry young because they don’t get proposals’ to ‘women choose to delay marriage because they can’t get the top 20% of men to commit, preferring to instead deprive their future husband of any youth at all’.

    The point IBB, is that it isn’t some failure of men to step up and propose to eager young women, merely waiting to get married. It is a fully, wilful choice of women to delay marriage for their own selfish reasons.

  183. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    What you wrote in the list is correct. So here is my question to you; so what? who cares?

    I think what you are wanting to say is that men should learn some dread to try and increase there MMV and maybe get ‘the girl’. Why should he do any such thing? She is not a prize.

    If we acknowledge that women want to be GC to maximize ‘pleasure and fun’. Then we should teach men to maximize their own ‘pleasure and fun’. Which means use one of the GC until she become a pain in the ***, then find another GC. Rinse and repeat. By the way this would cause true dread in women. When they understand that they are not GC, but just disposable tools. Think of how much dread that will cause.

    Of course there is a Christian way of dealing with these GC’s. Which would be to call them to repentance and if they don’t repent then minimize contact.

  184. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Basically guys, you can’t get married to a young SMV 10 because your MMV sux. You don’t bring enough to the table, Sorry. After several decades on this planet, that is as Red Pill as I can describe it

    Once again we see the Purple pill leading to the Black pill. Close to pure MGTOW blackpilling, in fact.

    IBB
    Not all women. Just the GCs. Unfortunately, there are far too many GCs. The GCs are legion for they are many.

    Ho, hum. Purple pill NAWALTing plus “quality woman”. Not new. Neither is the implied “Madonna / whore” dichotomy.

    https://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/

    Remember, every Quality Woman will also be a War Bride under certain conditions.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/03/war-brides/

    Alert readers will note that these concepts date back over 6 years just at Rollo’s site. Yet there are still men who just have not gotten their minds around the facts, who remain Purple pill.

    The Purple pill is an inherently unstable condition; a man either slides back to full on Blue pill, skids into the ditch of the Black pill, or progresses on to the Red pill. One cannot stay Purple indefinitely, in my humble opinion.

    PS: IBB could have saved all of us a lot of trouble by just stating these purple / black pill positions days ago, instead of fandangoing all over the place dragging goalposts around. It’s almost as if IBB just wants attention from Red pill men….

  185. Anonymous Reader says:

    Joe2
    Why is MEDIAN the most appropriate metric to use?

    That’s what seems to show up when searching. I really don’t care which measure of central tendency is used, to be honest. Given a choice I’d prefer Mean and Variance or Mean and Standard Deviation (essentially the same thing). But those don’t seem to come up, perhaps my search is faulty?

    The unstated premise in these numbers is obvious: that a Gaussian or pseudo-Gaussian curve is the best fit for the marriage data. Since I have not found the raw data, I can’t address that assumption / premise. It could well be that the pseudo-Gaussian is the “least bad” fit; the left side might be fairly symmetrical while the right side might be compressed due to marriage-panic among those girls whose age begins with the magic number “3”.

    It isn’t enough of a priority for me, so I have not done a truly diligent search. If you find raw data, or you find Mean & Variance please put the links up here, I am sure Dalrock and the rest of us would appreciate it. Accurate data is always preferred.

  186. Anonymous Reader says:

    goFigure
    If we acknowledge that women want to be GC to maximize ‘pleasure and fun’. Then we should teach men to maximize their own ‘pleasure and fun’. Which means use one of the GC until she become a pain in the ***, then find another GC. Rinse and repeat. By the way this would cause true dread in women. When they understand that they are not GC, but just disposable tools. Think of how much dread that will cause.

    This is very close to PUA “plate theory”. It is not an option for religious men who take their religion seriously, however…

    Of course there is a Christian way of dealing with these GC’s. Which would be to call them to repentance and if they don’t repent then minimize contact.

    …now I’m pointing to Deep Strength’s book yet again, for the benefit of churchgoing men who find the whole situation confusing, frustrating, dismaying, etc.

  187. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    The point IBB, is that it isn’t some failure of men to step up and propose to eager young women, merely waiting to get married.

    Dalrock said that this was my point. I never said that. Novaseeker interpreted what I said correctly, Dalrock got it wrong.

    Some of you guys assume too much. So I have to be very careful with what I write. Which is why I went into such depth with the “twelve points.”

    It is a fully, willful choice of women to delay marriage for their own selfish reasons.

    Yes they are being selfish. Of course they are, GCs are sociopaths. FH, how many women have you proposed marriage to in your lifetime? Just curious, I wont be critical of any answer you give.

  188. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Or we can simplify and say that we live in almost an entirely secular society where selfish, sociopathic behavior, is not only logical and encouraged, it is often rewarded.

    Paging Aristotle. Paging the Stoics. Paging Solomon…

  189. innocentbystanderboston says:

    goFigure,

    What you wrote in the list is correct. So here is my question to you; so what? who cares?

    I care. I don’t want our world to burn. Christ commands that I care about my brothers and sisters. I am not ready to go all scorched earth just yet. I want to change things. But I know I can only do that at a very small, local level.

  190. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    But I know I can only do that at a very small, local level. This starts in your own home. Teach your daughters the opposite of your 12 points above, then hold them accountable.

  191. Anonymous Reader says:

    feministhater

    The point IBB, is that it isn’t some failure of men to step up and propose to eager young women, merely waiting to get married.

    IBB
    Dalrock said that this was my point. I never said that.

    Here is a comment from last week. Was this comment a forgery? The emphasis in bold is in the original comment, written by some operator of the IBB account:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2019/05/01/the-season-of-singleness/#comment-321916

    Way earlier in this thread I said one of the four main reasons why the age for a woman’s first marriage is going up and up, is that they aren’t being asked. Women do not do the asking, men do. Women are going to university to get an MRS degree and they aren’t being asked. They can get fucked (the young men ask for that all the time), women just can’t get what they really want, a diamond.

    IBB
    Novaseeker interpreted what I said correctly, Dalrock got it wrong.

    Your persistent habit of self contradiction is funny. Both Novaseeker and Dalrock got your blather right; you’re the one who can’t remember what you’ve written. You know, it’s contradictions such as this that support the hypothesis of “Mr. & Mrs. IBB”….

    Some of you guys assume too much. So I have to be very careful with what I write.

    LOL. You can’t even remember your own words from days ago, just stop with that “careful” nonsense.

  192. goFigure says:

    IBB,
    I care. I don’t want our world to burn. Christ commands that I care about my brothers and sisters.
    You do not care about the men. Everything you suggest is good from the female perspective.

  193. feministhater says:

    FH, how many women have you proposed marriage to in your lifetime?

    None.

  194. innocentbystanderboston says:

    AR,

    I am now reminded why I started shunning you years ago…

    Here is a comment from last week. Was this comment a forgery?

    They AREN’T BEING ASKED. An increasingly secular 22 year old with an SMV of 10 (who may claim she is Christian), she is NOT going to give an ordinary guy with a MMV of 5 or 6 the time of day. He is not going to walk into church one day, see her, and go down on bended knee with a diamond just to prove my theory FALSE. That is not going to happen. Ever. That is not going to happen because he is already going to know that the answer will be “NO.”

    The increasingly secular 22 year old with an SMV of 10 (who may claim she is Christian), she is already getting all the attention in the world from men with high MMV and (in many cases) high SMV. They are going to be all around her. But just because an MMV of 10 is seeing her it does not mean he is going to propose marriage to her. HE might ALSO be playing the field and weighing better options simply because he has the options. It works both ways. And because it works both ways, DREAD sets in. And it is the DREAD that will motivate the 22 year old SMV of 10 Hailey Baldwin’s of the world to say yes to Justin Beiber.

    Women do not propose marriage. That doesn’t happen. They get offers or they don’t. And some will not get even one offer in their life. But women with high SMV DO compete (with one another) for the attention of the high MMV to get the offer. Consider what these “sisters” did to catch a man with an MMV of 100:

    And still, our prophet picked the best of the bunch (the oldest) Sephora. And when he chose her, she said yes as he knew she would.

    They are not getting offers. And maybe they shouldn’t get offers? I don’t think a GC is worthy of a legitimate marriage offer, I don’t. So maybe she should have cats? And no, the GCs are not going to humble themselves to the point where they would get offers from ordinary men. That is not going to happen until everything about our society changes. And we have to start small and get there incrementally.

  195. BillyS says:

    Lots of words IBB, but you didn’t answer my questions.

    Note that the Curse is tied to Adam. Though Eve had some pretty serious consequences too, contrary to your claim otherwise.

    You say later that you don’t want Western civilization to fall, yet you offer no clear guidance. Perhaps I am missing it, burried in the words. What are the specific steps you tell men? What are you specifically telling your own daughters? Do you still blame the problems on not enough quality men stepping forward? How do you fix that if so?

    Claiming a pot of “perfect 10” men is not realistic in the slightest and will never happen, as someone else noted.

  196. thedeti says:

    @ Rachel:

    Deti says we shouldn’t settle (i think) -I mean who wants a woman who isn’t totally into them. I think he is right.

    When I say women shouldn’ t settle, what I mean is that they shouldn’t wait so long to start thinking about selecting a suitable man for marriage. What happens too often is that young women think there will always be high value suitable marriage minded men, and then they get to their late 20s and discover a severe shortage of such men. And they discover they can’t attract those men for marriage. So they end up having to settle, because they want to be married to someone, anyone, more than they want to be forever single.

    What I mean is that women should capitalize on and use their high SMVs in their late teens and early 20s to find attractive marriage minded men, and then lock one down as soon as possible. Don’t tell me it can’t be done – it can. She should use her SMV to find men in their late 20s, and not be so weirded out about the age differences. I am aware the ideal age difference for women is finding a man around 3 years older than she is. But women are going to have to go +4, +5 or higher in a lot of cases.

    Women should use their peak SMV years to lock down marriage minded men they actually want to have sex with.

  197. thedeti says:

    My 19 yr old currently has 2 men interested. One is autistic, he is in her high school class and she treats him like a human being. Since all the other girls treat him like crap she worries that she is encouraging him. Being hypergamous, she doesn’t even see him as a man. The other is a normal shy guy. He appears to be a solid Christian but we don’t know since she only met him at a Christian camp. I have warned her not to dismiss him but he doesn’t push her buttons. Is he the one and she should settle or is he just the first guy she’s met and she doesn’t know any better. I honestly don’t know.

    The autistic dude is a nonstarter. She should continue treating him like a human being, but if he starts with romantic or sexual overtures, she should politely, kindly, and firmly, tell him she is not interested. This is because “she doesn’t even see him as a man”. It’s a no go.

    The second guy might be a no go because “he doesn’t push her buttons”. Maybe she should give him a chance or two to see if he starts lighting her up. But if he can’t bring some game and charm and start lighting her up, he’s a no go too. It’s fine that he’s a solid Christian. But she has to see him as a man. An attractive man she can submit to, cleave to, trust, and have sex with. If she cannot do that, or doesn’t want to do that, it’s not going to work. It’s fine if she doesn’t see him that way. And she should not try to create attraction where it doesn’t exist.

    Attraction is either there very quickly, or it isn’t. She’s either attracted, or she’s not. If she’s not, then she should cut him loose and move on.

  198. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Billy,

    Perhaps I am missing it, burried in the words. What are the specific steps you tell men?

    I don’t tell men much of anything. I tell women.

    Young Christian women generally listen to me (for whatever reason.) And they especially listen(ed) to me when I counseled the ones who were getting married. I wanted to make sure they were getting married for the right reasons. My stock, standardized, boilerplate question of them was always the same: If you are not willing to obey your future husband in all things, then why are you willing to marry him? There is an unassailable logic in that question that feminism does not want women to ask of themselves. Any logical answer to that question would paint her in a bad light: she is marrying him ONLY for what he can give her. That’s it. There is only feminist darkness in that logic. So I ask that question of young women in part to get them to seriously think about what they are doing, in part to put them on the spot, but mostly I ask them so that they enter the sacrament of marriage with the right frame of mind. And maybe (next time) she will ask the same question of her own daughter. And so it goes.

  199. feeriker says:

    Not all women. Just the GCs. Unfortunately, there are far too many GCs. The GCs are legion for they are many.

    Jeez, can you get anymore tradcon than that?

    C’mon now, spit out the rest of that blue pill. You know, I know, and everyone else knows that GCs are far and away the MAJORITY of women today. Were that not the case, not only this blog, but the entire androsphere would have no reason to exist.

  200. innocentbystanderboston says:

    C’mon now, spit out the rest of that blue pill. You know, I know, and everyone else knows that GCs are far and away the MAJORITY of women today.

    Its true. The “legion” most certainly is the “majority.” And yet another reason why I don’t want women to have the right to vote.

  201. feministhater says:

    I don’t tell men much of anything. I tell women.

    No. You are here telling us about why you think women are delaying marriage. As if that is somehow meant to get us to do something to save your precious Western Civilisation…

    When you start off a disagreement stating that all the men here don’t measure up to the standards set by women, that our MMVs sux, that we don’t bring enough to the table, how exactly do you think we’re going to respond?

    But she would have if all she had to choose was any of the single Christian men on this forum.

    A statement like this is deliberately made to fuel antagonism on a forum like this. What are you? The hypergamy enforcer? Do you conduct dick measuring contests? Do you ask for Tax Returns like the Democrats?

    You are here literally telling us men why women delay marriage and then turning around and stating you don’t tell men much of anything…

  202. feeriker says:

    Here is a comment from last week. Was this comment a forgery? The emphasis in bold is in the original comment, written by some operator of the IBB account:

    More evidence in support of the “Mrs. IBB” theory.

  203. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    You are here telling us about why you think women are delaying marriage.

    Correct.

    As if that is somehow meant to get us to do something to save your precious Western Civilization…

    Incorrect.

    I know for the well meaning Christian man with an MMV below 6, there is not much he can do. This is out of his hands. So I haven’t (and won’t) tell them what they need to do to change their behavior. They are doing as they should. But too many cards are stacked against them in an unfair game. Telling a man with an MMV of 5 that he has little hope is not (in anyway, shape, or form) an attempt to shame him into changing his behavior. It is instead, sympathy.

    FH, I would never ever ask you to change your ways. You know how difficult your life is. I don’t know you. I only know what you have told me. And the little bit you have told me, it is basically that you don’t think you have much of a chance. Okay, you have sold me. I believe you. I believe you don’t have much of a chance. So I am sympathetic to your cause. What else can I do?

  204. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    I am now reminded why I started shunning you years ago…

    You have run away multiple times from men who point out your logical contradictions. It is what you do, rather than admit error and correct it. Seems rather feminine or perhaps feminized, but either way it is what you do.

    I asked:
    Here is a comment from last week. Was this comment a forgery?

    IBB:
    They AREN’T BEING ASKED.

    Back to that again? Either women AREN’t BEING ASKED or the AREN”T BEING ASKED BY A ROCK STAR, but one of these things is obviously not like the other, because ALL and SOME are not synonyms. You’ve just contradicted yourself. Again.

    By the way, this latest sequence of comments is more evidence in favor of the dual-personality, “Mr. & Mrs. IBB” hypothesis. Of course, it is also evidence of the “IBB as Attention Whore” hypothesis as well.

  205. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    If you are not willing to obey your future husband in all things, then why are you willing to marry him?

    Suppose someone had asked Eve that question. What do you think her answer would have been?

  206. feministhater says:

    FH, I would never ever ask you to change your ways. You know how difficult your life is. I don’t know you. I only know what you have told me. And the little bit you have told me, it is basically that you don’t think you have much of a chance. Okay, you have sold me. I believe you. I believe you don’t have much of a chance. So I am sympathetic to your cause. What else can I do?

    My life isn’t that hard compared to others. I count myself blessed for the things I have and the peace I have.

    Much of a chance of what? Marriage? I could probably get married quite soon should I really put my mind to it. The quality of women though wouldn’t be what I wanted though. There are plenty of women who signal interest in me now and would gladly marry me tomorrow if they could, I’m not exceedingly wealthy but I’m well off. They are not young and they all played career girl. Now they are ready though…

    It really depends on what you mean. If you meant ‘early marriage’ then yes, I never did stand much of a chance. When I was younger, women I dated would consistently tell me that they were only planing to marrying once they were steady in their chosen career path or when they had enough to afford a mortgage on a big house or when they had enough to support their future children, it was always being pushed forwards, some reason or another. Why would I propose to these women? It made no sense to me then and it still makes no sense to me now. I never did meet a woman who said that she would like to get married whilst still young.

    I’ve realised since I’ve been on this blog that I’m not ugly nor do I scare off women. It’s just that I don’t give them the exact tingles that they want, I don’t give off absolute alpha vibes. Thus I realise that I will never be able to keep the attraction for a lifetime, that I will probably get divorced if I should get married. I’m not the kind of person to play games or pretend. I like who I am and that’s that.

    Believe it or not. I am content. I really would have liked to have been married when I was in my early twenties. That was my desire. It didn’t happen. Over the years I’ve learned to accept that and it has gotten immeasurably easier. Now I don’t fret any longer. I enjoy my life, whatever I’m doing.

  207. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Over the years I’ve learned to accept that and it has gotten immeasurably easier. Now I don’t fret any longer. I enjoy my life, whatever I’m doing.

    Like I said, I tell women. I don’t need to tell you anything. Sounds to me like you are doing just fine.

  208. feministhater says:

    I don’t need to tell you anything.

    I wasn’t talking about myself though. I was pointing out that you stated you don’t tell men much of anything whilst you have spent a good deal of time telling men here that women delay marriage because they don’t measure up to apex alphas, thereby contradicting your previous statement.

    I didn’t say that you needed to tell me anything personally, I didn’t ask for advice.

    You’re obfuscating.

  209. innocentbystanderboston says:

    I was pointing out that you stated you don’t tell men much of anything whilst you have spent a good deal of time telling men here that women delay marriage because they don’t measure up to apex alphas, thereby contradicting your previous statement.

    I challenge women to think to get them to change before it is too late. That is because if they are feminist, they need to change.

    I told the men on this board the way (I believe) women think. We can debate that, but there is nothing “personal” about that.

    One form of communication is about trying to get people (feminists) to change. The other is about trying to get us all to agree as to what the problems really are (with feminism.) Those are two different ways to communicate feminist hater. I haven’t made even one suggestion to any of the men here on what they should do (differently) to improve their lives. The only time I would ever do that, is if my advice was solicited. It has not been so I don’t offer it.

  210. Anonymous Reader says:

    feministhater
    A statement like this is deliberately made to fuel antagonism on a forum like this. What are you? The hypergamy enforcer?

    Note that this is not the first rodeo IBB has started up, although it’s been a few years since the last one. The IBB account is consistently inconsistent and even self-contradictory except for one attribute: IBB always writes from the feminine-centric perspective.

    Do you conduct dick measuring contests?

    Oh, no, no, let’s not revive that IBB rabbit trail again.

  211. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    So you only tell women who are about to get married. You never give your unmarried (and not aiming at it) any advice? Some dad you are.

    You want to save western civilization but do nothing to advance it?

    Only telling women who are about to marry something they will clearly tell you what you want to hear is not very helpful. My exwife would have told you she was going to obey and follow me for life, but reality was far different. I should have done more action watching than just believing words, but I didn’t. It is far worse now.

    No women now is going to admit she is only marrying because all her friends are or that she really isn’t in love with the guy. She may even think she is in love with him, but reality is far different in many cases and your question is largely worthless if that is all it is.

    Why do you even bother to reply here then?

  212. Billy, I think you are being a presumptuous. I am sorry about your ex-wife and the hell she put you through. But please, do not blame me.

  213. BillyS says:

    I don’t blame you for her selfishness. I do hold you accountable for not thinking things through. Thinking asking and getting an answer to that question will do anything is naive at the very least.

  214. BillyS says:

    And not telling your daughters anything, as it seems, nor challenging them, makes you like a cuckservative who doesn’t like things, but never does anything proactive.

  215. Höllenhund says:

    A 22-year-old woman, regardless of her social status and looks, is probably not capable of eliciting marriage proposals from men she’s sexually attracted to. What she is capable of is eliciting long-term commitment, and eventually marriage, from men she doesn’t particularly find attractive, but who nevertheless would not seriously consider her as a wife if she only started signalling them 8-10 years later.

  216. Random Angeleno says:

    The idea of a median is that half the values in the set are below that number and half are above. So if the median wage of a woman getting married for the first time is now 27, that doesn’t mean women getting married before 27 don’t exist. They’re around, they’re actually half the number so there are younger women who respond to proposals. Just not nearly as many as there used to be, true, but it’s not nothing.

    That said, it would be useful to see the SMV and MMV of the men who are successfully proposing marriage to women younger than 27. It would also be interesting to see the mean and the variance in both directions.

  217. Anonymous Reader says:

    Billy to IBB
    Why do you even bother to reply here then?

    Surely you have noted that IBB does not actually assist men in any way, consistently comments on any inter-sexual issues from a female-centric point of view, and in the last couple of threads has openly begun to hand out black pills to men along the lines of “You have no hope of ever wifing up a 22 year old high SMV woman”. Plus these habits consistently get the IBB account attention from men. Of course, the nostalgia for the 1980’s also gets attention as well. One way or another, IBB can always get attention by commenting here…

    Does this help answer your question?

  218. Otto says:

    @Random Angeleno,

    27 was the median age for women marrying in 2014 (5 years ago); today it is 27.8. For men, it has gone from 29.3 to 29.8.

    Or, another way to look at it, in the last 5 years, the median age for men has increased 6 months, and for women 9.6 months.

    https://www.thespruce.com/estimated-median-age-marriage-2303878

  219. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Billy,

    I don’t blame you for her selfishness. I do hold you accountable for not thinking things through.

    Holding me accountable for what? What did I not think through? All men are accountable. What did I do wrong? You are not making much sense.

  220. Random Angeleno says:

    @otto
    Appreciate the update. Excellent table in that article. My question still stands…

  221. Anonymous Reader says:

    Otto
    Useful data at that site. Thanks.
    Note that there is consistently a 2-year difference between the ages of men and ages of women at first marriage. Women as a rule do not marry men younger than they are (or shorter, for that matter).

  222. Joe2 says:

    So if the median wage of a woman getting married for the first time is now 27, that doesn’t mean women getting married before 27 don’t exist. They’re around, they’re actually half the number so there are younger women who respond to proposals. Just not nearly as many as there used to be, true, but it’s not nothing.

    I agree. Without further data, we don’t know anything about the age of the younger women who have responded. It’s possible that the age of the younger women could have decreased even though the median age has increased.

  223. feministhater says:

    It’s possible that the age of the younger women could have decreased even though the median age has increased.

    Wow! Back to straw clutching. This doesn’t matter, the trend is your friend. The trend is up, thus the entire curve is shifting towards later marriage.

  224. Anonymous Reader says:

    Joe2
    Without further data, we don’t know anything about the age of the younger women who have responded. It’s possible that the age of the younger women could have decreased even though the median age has increased.

    “Age at first marriage” is a 1-dimensional data point. Mean and variance or mean and standard deviation would help. Confidence intervals on the distribution would help. Having the raw data would help.

    However, the fact that age at first marriage is increasing and so far it is monotonic suggests your possibility isn’t happening. For whatever reason, US women prefer to marry later now than 20 years ago. It’s a fact we all need to deal with, rather than ignore or pearl clutch or pretend isn’t real.

  225. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    You claim to support western civilization and speak her opposing its decline, yet you have no actionable advice. You only gripe about those who say things you don’t like.

    You also make misleading claims about the reasons marriage is being delayed. That is a serious problem.

    AR,

    We also need to strongly warn young men about how things are so they don’t see marriage prospects as encouraging events, but rather as women trying to find a seat before the music stops playing, since those women are the ones delaying marriage until the last minute.

    I was stupid and ignorant when I married, but I might have been helped if someone had really helped me step back and see how much my marriage was not aimed at a Biblical union, but helping my wife avoid being the last one without a seat in her church at the time. Plenty of signs I didn’t take seriously at the time. And things have changed a LOT in the 30+ years since then.

  226. Paul says:

    As for statistical relevance; whatever distribution the age of first marriage follows, its average/expected value follows a Gaussian distribution when sampled in large numbers. Therefore the only mathematically significant parameters are the mean/average and the variance/standard deviation. In general, median value is bollocks, and only serves as a poor/lazy man’s replacement for the mean, but for the Gaussian distribution, it’s the same as the mean.

  227. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Billy, I don’t have a problem, serious or otherwise.

    You also make misleading claims about the reasons marriage is being delayed. That is a serious problem.

    Marriage is being significantly delayed (it is) because the feminist imperative stipulates that women can have it all. All. Boys have never been told that (we were taught the opposite actually) but girls are told they can have it all. As young men, we make choices. Young women are told they don’t have to make choices, they can have ALL the options. (In reality, they can’t, but feminism is not reality.)

    Alright, you are a 22 year old girl, thin, hot, sky-high SMV, and the phone is ringing off the hook. You have beta orbiters that will do anything for you just to sniff your panties. But you want it ALL. Marriage? Sure. But he better:
    #1) Pay off ALL your student loans
    #2) Make your ‘gina tingle ALL the time
    #3) Have the house already but you can spend his money for ALL the furniture you want
    #4) Have the BMW already
    #5) Turn his back on ALL his friends and spend ALL his free time on you
    #6) Give you the lifestyle that you ALWAYS wanted
    #7) Take you to ALL the exotic locations on vacation
    #8) Pay for someone to do ALL the housework (because you don’t want to, its not “fun.”)
    #9) Make sure ALL the yardwork is done and most importantly
    #10) ALL your friends will have to be so jealous or ELSE he’s not good enough for you

    22 year old boy is probably not going to get ‘er done. He is not going to give her ALL of what she wants.

    Billy, reality sets in (and feminist imperative starts to subside) around 30 when she realizes that she will NOT have it ALL. It hasn’t happened so maybe it is never going to happen. Now (as her SMV declines) she starts to settle for that 30 year old who (when she and he were both 22) she would not have given him the time of day. But things go really bad (for her) when they are now both 30 but she is willing to settle for him but he still wants the 22 year old. And now, because he has so much more to offer than what he could offer when he was 22, he is bargaining from a position of strength.

    The problem with women not marrying younger is the same problem we’ve been dealing with for years: feminism.

  228. Anonymous Reader says:

    Paul
    As for statistical relevance; whatever distribution the age of first marriage follows, its average/expected value follows a Gaussian distribution when sampled in large numbers.

    Well, pseudo-Gaussian anyway. The skirts might well be non-symmetrical. But good enough to make some predictions with, and that’s how hypotheses are tested.

    IBB
    The problem with women not marrying younger is the same problem we’ve been dealing with for years: feminism.

    You’ve contradicted yourself yet again.

  229. AR,

    You’ve contradicted yourself yet again.

    No.

    Feminism thinks that for any 22 year old with an SMV of 10 that wants to get married, she is entitled to a hot medical doctor with an MMV of 10. Feminism does not live in the world of reality but point remains exactly as it always has.

  230. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Feminism thinks that for any 22 year old with an SMV of 10 that wants to get married, she is entitled to a hot medical doctor with an MMV of 10.

    LOL! Last week you insisted women go to school for their MRS degree, and that one way to “fix” things would be for the most attractive men in their upper 20’s to refuse to marry. When multiple men demonstrated that the 1980’s are clearly over and MRS degrees are no longer a priority for college girls [Insert video from East Sixth Street, Austin, Texas here….] you dropped that position.
    Now you’ve changed position again. I wonder what you will shift to next?

    The reality is visible near any college campus, and “MRS” isn’t on the priority list, as it was 25+ years ago when the age at first marriage was 22 to 24 – a typical age for a graduating senior to marry. Now the age for women at first marriage is over 27: that’s 4 to 5 years of college, plus an internship or graduate degree, plus a couple of years of something else. It’s just arithmetic. Nothing complicated.

    Feminism does not live in the world of reality

    This is funny and ironic, coming from you.

    but point remains exactly as it always has.

    Well, what is your point (today), besides attempting to discourage men with your black-pill interpretation of Rollo’s SMP chart? Are you going to start cheering for girls riding the cock carousel next?

  231. Anonymous Reader says:

    By the way, IBB, hypergamy is a feature of female psychology and existed long before anything like “feminism”. Make a note of that fact.

  232. Anonymous Reader says:

    Speaking of those girls in college for their MRS degrees…how many Ivy girls are participating in the Senior Scramble.

    https://nypost.com/2019/05/08/inside-the-sex-crazed-final-weeks-at-americas-elite-colleges/

    Although she’s graduating this May, Piche doesn’t plan to squeeze in any more hookups this year.

    “I’ve scrambled with everyone I’ve wanted to,” she says. “At this point I want someone who knows how to treat me well, both emotionally and physically. Because there are just some people I’ve scrambled with that do not know how to pleasure other people and just focus on themselves.”

    Seems like a nice girl…

    At Columbia, the process culminates with a party at Low Plaza, their equivalent of the quad, 40 days before graduation. At this year’s, Hermesman spotted “some people . . . heavily making out.”

    Avendano views the tradition as a welcome respite from Columbia’s usually political atmosphere — and a chance for the coeds to loosen up.

    “You don’t find people at Columbia getting excited before the big game,” he says. But “senior scramble is something everyone could get behind.”

    Aaaah…no comment.

  233. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    You claimed women weren’t marrying young because they weren’t getting asked. It may be true in a very limited perspective, it is not true in the way most think of it and is therefore misleading and continues to push the idea that weak men are messing things up, not women.

    Making up a mythical man who would meet their requirements is dishonest since they don’t exist in the real world.

    Few women have SMV 10 value as well.

    You may as well be talking about unicorns and leprechauns.

  234. You may as well be talking about unicorns and leprechauns.

    Yes Billy, believing in unicorns and leprechauns is akin to believing in feminism.

    I don’t agree with the decision young women are making by only being willing to get married young if it is the top 1% of males that ask for their hand in marriage. I am just reporting it as a fact. Because it is in fact a fact. They would say yes to marriage at age 22 (any 22 year old, ALL OF THEM) IF AND ONLY IF (in their feminist inspired mind) a man who they believe is in the top 1% asked for their hand. Otherwise, NFW.

    And the 99% of males who are not 1% already know this.

    So they don’t ask.

    And then NO ONE ASKS.

    So she (regardless of her SMV) has no marriage offers (as is the entire point of this thread, the entire point I have made since day one.) And as a result, the average age for her first wedding day goes up to 27 or 28 or whatever it is. But at least everyone gets to keep their pride, the worst of the seven deadly sins.

  235. feministhater says:

    And the 99% of males who are not 1% already know this.

    So they don’t ask.

    And then NO ONE ASKS.

    So she (regardless of her SMV) has no marriage offers (as is the entire point of this thread, the entire point I have made since day one.) And as a result, the average age for her first wedding day goes up to 27 or 28 or whatever it is.

    Just because a woman cannot get proposals from the 1% of men when she is 22, doesn’t explain why the marriage age continues to increase…

    Women were obviously willing to get married at 23, 24, 25 before… now for some reason they continue to hold out. If I continued to refuse to buy something from you, how many times would you offer before you went away in disgust and never offered it to me again?

    Women have refused marriage to hold out for Mr Perfect for so long that men no longer propose. Just deserts. Women are the cause of their own misery and they deserve it all. Not one ounce of sympathy from me.

    This is satire though IBB because women continue to get proposed to, even now, and they still refuse until all their options have run dry and they hit that wall.

    What ever way you slice it, the cause for delayed marriage is the choice of women. Their actions have caused it. Even your reasoning shows that men have only responded by no longer proposing because women deemed them unfit for marriage. This is a wise and appropriate response from men. Women want something that does not exist, men have given it to them by walking away.

    This debate is pointless.

  236. Novaseeker says:

    There are a few things going on.

    One is that young women’s status is generally higher than young men’s status today. There are several drivers of this.

    One is that women are outperforming men in terms of education, and this is showing up in terms of pay, at least among young people (i.e., people who are not married yet, no kids yet, not having stopped out of work or gone part time or what have you) — young women are outearning young men.

    Another reason is that young women naturally have higher sexual/social status than young men do, of the same age range, because those young men are a work in progress still in terms of building aspects of their attraction that are not purely genetic (social status, career and wealth building, social skills, physical build).

    Yet another reason is the rise of social media which takes virtually every woman who is a HB6 (i.e., cute, but not super attractive) and delivers a lot more attention than anything they have ever experienced in the human world of the past, and it just gets more intense the higher up the HB scale you go. This makes her “effective SMV”, in terms of how she self-evaluates, even higher.

    When you add it all up — women outperforming peer-aged men educationally and then, as a consequence, financially, having naturally high SMV at that age range, and having that augmented via social media — women’s expectations at that age range can often be sky high indeed. I think it is hard for a lot of men to process this, in terms of what has changed, when there have been so many changes happening at the same time that have added up to provide a cumulative impact.

    When you couple those together with the actual life script from the young women themselves and their parents, especially fathers, the likelihood of early marriage really dwindles into a practical impossibility for most women who are college educated. In some parts of the country (typically away from the coastal cities) they will still marry at like 24-26, so “ahead of schedule” compared to the national average, but that just means that someplace else on the coasts women are marrying even later than the average, like in the early 30s (which is certainly the case for most educated women here in the DC region, for example). There are so many factors baked into the decision making at this point that it’s very hard to isolate one or two of them … they all play a role and they all reinforce the same result of pushing marriage ages back.

    One has to keep in mind that most of the culture, including most of the church, sees this as not a bad thing. The Christian part of the culture certainly turns a blind eye to the fornication this path implies, but otherwise they also endorse it as a good thing. People point out that these marriages have lower divorce rates (as we have discussed here, this appears to be related to IQ levels and not marriage age but the stat gets repeated around and is now conventional wisdom everywhere) and are therefore more stable, etc. The entire cultural narrative is built around this life path now. Trying to overturn it would take nothing less than a cultural revolution in reverse, it seems to me, coupled with the elimination of social media, the rapid promotion of boys and young men in the schools and educational system, and the shifting of the economy back, away from services and tech towards manufacturing. All of that seems very unlikely to me, and especially that it will all happen at once.

  237. Nova,

    One has to keep in mind that most of the culture, including most of the church, sees this as not a bad thing. The Christian part of the culture certainly turns a blind eye to the fornication this path implies, but otherwise they also endorse it as a good thing. People point out that these marriages have lower divorce rates (as we have discussed here, this appears to be related to IQ levels and not marriage age but the stat gets repeated around and is now conventional wisdom everywhere) and are therefore more stable, etc. The entire cultural narrative is built around this life path now. Trying to overturn it would take nothing less than a cultural revolution in reverse, it seems to me, coupled with the elimination of social media, the rapid promotion of boys and young men in the schools and educational system, and the shifting of the economy back, away from services and tech towards manufacturing. All of that seems very unlikely to me, and especially that it will all happen at once.

    Agreed.

    Maybe God is angry with the United States? Maybe He is angry enough at what we (and feminism) have done to His second greatest gift to us (and our inability to reverse how we have corrupted it) that He has already damned all of us to Hell? I hope to God He hasn’t, but I wouldn’t be surprised if He did.

  238. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    And then NO ONE ASKS.

    I doubt even this is true. Some do head toward that goal, but get quickly shot down.

    That is a huge part of the problem you are missing. Your points are misleading, which is the core problem. Why not just admit the core problem is women putting off marriage and stop making lame excuses?

  239. Dale says:

    Why do you think that women aren’t being asked? Personally, I was told no by 5 of the 4 women I asked (One did not wait to be asked). The final one said : No, I don’t accept a proposal that does not come with a ring”. (We have been married 26 years). he firs, I do not think it was wanting to delay marriage, but a complete lack of female game (they knew how to get dates, but not how to catch a man).

  240. BillyS says:

    They didn’t want to catch a man Dale. That is the whole point. They wanted to have their fun and be free of any man.

  241. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dale to IBB
    Why do you think that women aren’t being asked?

    Note that the IBB account has shifted from “NO ONE is asking” to “NO ONE ALPHA ENOUGH is asking”. The obvious Apex fallacy is obvious. So is the Pareto distribution. So is hypergamy.

    There’s a personal issue involved here for IBB.a

  242. Pingback: Think It Through — Link Roundup 5/14/19

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