The season of singleness.

One of the biggest impacts of the sexual revolution and second wave feminism is the trend of women delaying marriage to focus on a combination of sexual promiscuity, education, and career.  A quick and dirty way to visualize this is the number of years between when a woman turns 18 and when she marries.

afyears

We tend to think of the sexual revolution as something that happened in the past, but as the chart above shows it started in the late 1960s and is still underway.

As Novaseeker explained in his excellent comment (see also here and here), when conservative Christians were faced with the choice of following modern values or following biblical values, they cast aside biblical values and followed the culture:

Prior to the sex rev/60s changes, it was quite possible to follow the standard American middle class life script (or upper middle class one .. the upper middle was tiny then anyway) while not contradicting conventional Christian sexual morality. The two meshed. After the sex rev/60s, that meshing came apart. The middle class and above started to prioritize education for their daughters — again, in part as divorce insurance but in part also because it became a middle class norm for parents, especially fathers, to take pride in their daughters’ achievements educationally and professionally. The sexual revolution, the advent of cheap and reliable contraception and abortion, the changed social mores about women pursuing careers and so on … all of this basically changed the middle class life script. Christians who were in the middle class were theoretically faced with a conflict — which script to follow, the Christian one (which also previously was compatible with the middle class one) or the new middle class one which conflicted with the Christian one because it implied lots of fornication?

Well, we know how *that* turned out, don’t we? What we learned was that most American Christians, of all stripes, were more committed middle class strivers than they were committed Christians. So when the life scripts diverged, they followed the (new) middle class life script en masse … basically kept on following the prevailing middle class life script and left the Christian one by the wayside, observed with the lips but not with the actions.  This was almost universally taking place at the time, and it became quickly entrenched. The churches didn’t fight it too much — there was some fighting in the 60s and 70s about it, but at the same time most of the “conservatives” in the churches were also adopting, de facto, the new middle class life script for their own daughters, and so the active opposition to this from the churches became weak relatively quickly, and then in the later 80s and into the 90s became virtually unheard of apart from radical separatist elements.

Key to understanding this process is to understand that conservative Christians don’t admit this is what happened.  This massive shift is cloaked in denial.  While the rest of society admits why women are delaying marriage, conservative Christians have declared that the trend that started in the late 1960s represents Christian women obeying God’s will.  The term of denial is season of singleness, and the premise is that marriage delaying Christian women are responding to God’s call for them to wait for a husband.   If you aren’t familiar with this part of Christian culture, do a web search on “season of singleness”, and you will find a cacophony of articles and videos on it.

Popular women’s preacher and former Miss Washington Allyson Rowe explains on Youtube:  If God’s calling you into a season of singleness, REJOICE in it!

Rowe is 30 and has never married, but giving advice to women on the proper way to wait for a husband is her specialty.  Here she explains that Godly women must not compromise on their long list of demands for a husband, because their desires are given to them by God.  Settling, and marrying a real life man who is interested in them would be disobedient (sinful!), and betray a lack of faith in the goodness of God’s plan:

See Also: 

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This entry was posted in Allyson Rowe, Book of Oprah, Complementarian, Data, Finding a Spouse, Too traditional to be traditional, Traditional Conservatives, Turning a blind eye, Ugly Feminists, You can't make this stuff up. Bookmark the permalink.

230 Responses to The season of singleness.

  1. Damn Crackers says:

    This idea is satanic. God will reward her with a plague of feral cats.

  2. Dalrock says:

    @Damn Crackers

    This idea is satanic. God will reward her with a plague of feral cats.

    Perhaps not. Her latest blog post shows a picture of her and her “beau”. However, I assume they aren’t engaged yet because I don’t see any videos of her teaching how to be a Christian wife.

  3. Many Mormon families are struggling to maintain a middle class lifestyle with the wife as homemaker. They are fleeing the San Francisco Bay Area because its high cost of living makes that very difficult for the average worker. That’s probably the wave of the future, unless something radically changes.

  4. Posts about “the season of singleness” should also include links to these great posts – about the opposite course.

    Women shouldn’t settle.
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/women-shouldnt-settle/

    Why we need to stop telling women to settle.
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/why-we-need-to-stop-telling-women-to-settle/

    It was time to settle for a boring loyal dude.
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2019/03/25/it-was-time-to-settle-for-a-boring-loyal-dude/

  5. thedeti says:

    Most women, most Christian women, are not following this advice that women like Rowe, and Wendy Griffith, are selling. It is all virtue signaling, if you ask me. It is recommended advice. People say it’s good advice. Women say they follow it, or want to follow it.

    But they don’t. They’re not. We know that most of them are not.

  6. Anon says:

    Wow. Even in the 80s, marriage happened at ages 22-24 for most women on average.

    The rise from 26 to 28 over just the period from 2010 to 2018 is huge.

    Remember that a blue-pill Tradcon like RS McCain still thinks there is nothing….nothing about current divorce and custody laws that should deter a man from marriage :

    https://theothermccain.com/2019/04/26/its-very-simple/

    But people better reproduce, so that there are more …….taxpayers! Note that cutting spending is not an option, but you better man up and produce more taxpayers (whether the child of a single mother ever becomes a net taxpayer is too lofty of an analysis for this cuckservative).

  7. l jessel says:

    If her standards for a husband have changed as she gets older then you can be sure that they were never from God to start with. God’s standards are simple, women’s are complex and long.

  8. Top pop stars prepare young women for a life of loneliness.

    See music videos by Whitney Houston, Fifth Harmony, Ariana Grande, Hailee Steinfeld, Christina Aguilera, Katy Perry, and Taylor Swift. They tell women to love themselves above all others, even if that means living alone.

    https://fabiusmaximus.com/2019/03/30/music-for-a-new-era-of-romance/

  9. The peculiar thing is not that a woman should have standards. We all do, not everybody is suited to marry everybody else. It’s that the female equivalent leaps well up into fantasy. As if she would fall in love with a list of characteristics as opposed to an actual human man.

  10. gbfm says:

    lzozolzlzlozlozolzolzo

  11. Hank Flanders says:

    I think Alyson Rowe is well-intentioned but that from what I’ve seen, ,she doesn’t give particularly good advice and that her “prophecies” aren’t particularly useful either, because they don’t apply to any specific person or group of people. To be fair, though, I’ve only watched a few of her videos but didn’t like what I saw. For instance, in this one, she claims that the person “God has for you will see you as THE option.” Where in the Bible are we told that God has someone for us? As far as I can tell, that concept is a modern invention and is not something on which we should be basing our theology or search for love. I’d like to think God has someone for me, but reality shows that better looking higher status people are simply going to have more…OPTIONS.

  12. feeriker says:

    See music videos by Whitney Houston, Fifth Harmony, Ariana Grande, Hailee Steinfeld, Christina Aguilera, Katy Perry, and Taylor Swift. They tell women to love themselves above all others, even if that means living alone.

    As if women need to be TOLD to “love themselves above others.”

  13. thedeti says:

    feeriker:

    you know that to modern churchianity, one of the worst sins a woman can commit is not loving herself. Low self esteem is a grave, grave sin to our new churchian overlords.

  14. Nick Mgtow says:

    Helen Holmes write that Leonardo DiCaprio should help his ex GF get out of debt because he has the means to do so, and she’s a woman, so, it’s another reason.

    https://observer.com/2019/04/leonardo-dicaprio-please-get-your-ex-girlfriend-out-of-debt/

  15. Charles B says:

    Holy sweet mother of mercy I couldn’t listen to more than 30 seconds of that.

    She will likely bag someone eventually because she still attractive enough to, But she will absolutely lead a great many women down the wrong path who are far less attractive or have been ridden harder.

  16. Charles B says:

    And it’s amazing how explicit they are and their belief that their hypergamous standards for mate selection are somehow the word of God. Wtf.

  17. m11nine says:

    Deti,

    “Do women sin?” is a great example of that phenomenon. Low self esteem is a pretty big sin to many.

    http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/Do.Women.sin.htm

  18. Charles B says:

    @I Jessel, if I were to create a Platonic form of a man based on what Jesus specifically named as pleasing to God, he would likely be a woman repellent. Unless he was 6’3.

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Season” is one of those churchy words that in my opinion is way overused. A season is 3 or 4 months, not 10 or 15 or 20 years. Frankly it looks more and more like a buffer, a way to avoid looking at the reality of some situation.

  20. Anonymous Reader says:

    For instance, in this one, she claims that the person “God has for you will see you as THE option.”

    LOL, that’s on the same level as astrology or a fortune cookie. Women are so very superstitious.

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Charles B
    Holy sweet mother of mercy I couldn’t listen to more than 30 seconds of that.

    Hey, she might have some baggage by now, courtesy of her “season of singlness”. That’s got to be special for her One Man.

  22. Dalrock says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    “Season” is one of those churchy words that in my opinion is way overused. A season is 3 or 4 months, not 10 or 15 or 20 years. Frankly it looks more and more like a buffer, a way to avoid looking at the reality of some situation.

    It is tediously overused, but there is a biblical reference in Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 (famously quoted by The Birds Pete Seeger):

    For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven:

    2 a time to be born, and a time to die;
    a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
    3 a time to kill, and a time to heal;
    a time to break down, and a time to build up;
    4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh;
    a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
    5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
    a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
    6 a time to seek, and a time to lose;
    a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
    7 a time to tear, and a time to sew;
    a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
    8 a time to love, and a time to hate;
    a time for war, and a time for peace.

    But what they are selling when using the term season of singleness isn’t biblical. It is pure rationalization of why Christians are following the feminist script.

  23. thedeti says:

    m11nine:

    Closely related to the sin of low self esteem is the sin of ‘failure to be true to oneself’.

    Both from the Book of Oprah.

  24. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    But what they are selling when using the term season of singleness isn’t biblical. It is pure rationalization of why Christians are following the feminist script.

    There’s a lot to unpack…

  25. feeriker says:

    Nick Mgtow says:
    May 1, 2019 at 1:34 pm

    Perfect example of female lack of self-awareness: Helen Holmes just publicly admitted, to the entire literate world, and in irrevocable digital form, that women are weak, foolish, immature, impecunious, and irresponsible. In other words, unfit to live as independent adults.

    For instance, in this one, she claims that the person “God has for you will see you as THE option.”

    LOL, that’s on the same level as astrology or a fortune cookie. Women are so very superstitious.

    Would it really surprise anybody here if some study or survey was published revealing that churchian women spend more time reading –and put more stock in– astrology and fortune cookie messages than the Bible?

  26. 3r52 says:

    Well, early marriage sounds good to me, but they tend to suffer a higher divorce rate… it doesn’t start to level out until around age 25.

  27. What immediately comes to my mind is Dalrock’s earlier post: 2017 Never Married Data, which proposed some interesting conclusions that I think provide a new take on the “Season of Singleness” advice

    Link: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/09/04/2017-never-married-data/

    For both charts it is clear that nearly all women have married by age 45. This reconfirms two things:

    1. There will always be thirsty men willing to marry even the staunchest holdout, even though we are seeing what may be a small but growing number of men electing not to marry.
    2. Women still see marriage as an indispensable part of having it all, despite all of the talk about women no longer feeling the need to gain the status of wife. To understand how deep this need is, consider just how hard these women had to settle after assuring themselves for decades that they could do better. Choosing last sucks, and it sucks all the more if the reason you chose last is you were sure you could do better than the ever shrinking pool. These women didn’t get any younger, prettier, more fertile, or less entitled as they entered middle age. Their options didn’t get better as their 40th and 45th birthdays approached, they got much worse. What changed is the women decided to settle, and settle hard.

    It’s the “women decided to settle, and settle hard” that really resonates here.

    Alysson Rowe’s subscribers/listeners are following her advice and holding out, but they are eventually getting married. Eventually.

    You have all this other stuff happening – shrinking pols of men, facing the indignity of choosing last, etc.

    But the notion that they are avoiding sin by holding out to this degree and length of time, might explain the types of attitudes and the tenor of relationship that such women haul along with them into their late life marriages.

    I could be wrong, but my assertion would be that these kinds of women make the worst wives ever, and succeed in making married life a living hell for their “didn’t see it coming”, compliant, negotiating and approval-seeking, “Christian” husbands. Because well, afterall, she has had God on her side from the outset. She is part of His grand plan! And who are you to suggest otherwise? She would have never agreed to take such a sharp step down in men without that certificate from The Lord. Et cetera, et cetera. Women forced to settle hard on anything is not a signal that pleasantness will follow. If anything, you can rely on the opposite – anger, resentment, bitterness.

    As if feminism isn’t already laying on the entitlement, attitude and ingratitude thick enough as it is among single women. These Christian feminists are pumping up the indignation even more.

  28. g2-cdb27520fb49967abcc1c55ca90a2fef says:

    I would like to provide some NAWALT, of sorts. My oldest granddaughter visited me last night, with her fiance. They’re getting married in June. She’s 20, and finishing her sophomore year in college (full ride scholarship, computer programming).

    Her mother, my oldest daughter, has lived a trainwreck of a life, despite my best efforts. Perhaps this is the granddaughter’s way of rebelling. The granddaughter did say that her mother was told to stay away (period), and that she has not forgotten or forgiven my daughter for driving her father to suicide.

    So many times I have failed or come up short with that daughter, watching her screw up her life and those she interacted with, and being able to do so little about it. When the granddaughter managed to get away as a minor and we actually got CPS to do their job, I began to hope. Now, I am pretty darn pleased.

  29. TheTraveler says:

    One of the best comments I ever saw was at (I believe) heartiste before that venerable blog descended into chaos, and it went something like:

    If men get 80% of their “wish list”for a wife, they’re overjoyed.

    If women get 80% of their “wish list” for a husband, they whine about not settling–and move on.

  30. TheTraveler says:

    @3r52

    I cited the finding you showed in a comment on the last post yesterday. Thanks for digging it up–we even said the exact same thing, that early marriage sounds nice in principle, but…

  31. @G2
    Generation Z is going to be one interesting step change for all of the feminists, pearl clutchers and adherents to identity politics.

  32. @3r52: Correlation, causation, etc.

    The low divorce rate and the late marriage both occur as a result of the ability to follow directions, think long-term, and delay gratification. But delayed gratification in service to a stupid goal is still stupid.

  33. https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/03/17/the-four-sirens-of-the-sexual-apocalypse/

    Let’s all try to remember – how did your local Christian church respond when these sirens (friendly mermaids?) showed up?

    1. The Pill
    2. No-fault divorce
    3. Working women
    4. Man-hating feminism
    5. Penicillin
    6. Porn

  34. vfm7916 says:

    As I noted yesterday: Don’t send your daughters to college, or pay for it. Work to get her married young to a career/trade man in his 20’s. Don’t make her wait, because she won’t wait.

    Dads who virtue signal that they protect their daughters innocence and push the “You can be anything!” idea fall neatly in to the category Dalrock notes.

    Virtue signaling, from suffrage to sex, by men is the downfall of western civilization. Choose not to do it, in any form.

  35. Dalrock says:

    @3r52

    Well, early marriage sounds good to me, but they tend to suffer a higher divorce rate… it doesn’t start to level out until around age 25.

    Divorce (and remarriage) is a young woman’s game. As women get older, their interest in divorcing drops dramatically because their ability to remarry drops dramatically. If you want to be really safe, marry a woman in her 60s, 70s, or 80s.

    There is another factor though, which is that divorce rates increase with higher premarital partner counts. That is probably why age 25 is (or at least was in 1995) a sweet spot in the chart you shared. She’s likely only banged a few other dudes, and yet realizes (at some level) that her attractiveness is on the wane.

  36. Novaseeker says:

    Well, early marriage sounds good to me, but they tend to suffer a higher divorce rate… it doesn’t start to level out until around age 25.

    The stats are hard to interpret, however, because of the self-selection of both the early and later marrying groups. The people with the lowest divorce rates are marriages where both people have college degrees. These people do not marry early, so they are not in the early pool … they are busy getting their degrees and starting their careers. The early marriage pool is comprised overwhelmingly of people without college degrees, who have more limited financial prospects and higher substance abuse rates and host of other things that make them worse candidates for marriage overall, and therefore the divorce rate is driven up.

    What we do not know is whether the rates would look like that if the better candidates for marriage — the ones who are now spending those years in college and career building — were to get married at younger ages, and thereby even out the divorce rate by age of first marriage. In other words, currently the demographics of the early marriage group and later marriage group are so different that it is hard to tease out whether the demographics actually drives the divorce rate difference or the age at first marriage, in and of itself, does.

  37. JRob says:

    Deepak Reju also doesn’t want Daughters of the King to settle, so he wrote a book to help.

    Look for AF/BB and more proof of Novaseker’s point in the three ringer-written reviews.

    https://www.christianbook.com/shes-wrong-why-smart-women-settle/deepak-reju/9781945270093/pd/270093#customer_reviews

    The Amazon reviews and endorsement list are Hamsterific too.

  38. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    The stats are hard to interpret, however, because of the self-selection of both the early and later marrying groups. The people with the lowest divorce rates are marriages where both people have college degrees. These people do not marry early, so they are not in the early pool … they are busy getting their degrees and starting their careers. The early marriage pool is comprised overwhelmingly of people without college degrees, who have more limited financial prospects and higher substance abuse rates and host of other things that make them worse candidates for marriage overall, and therefore the divorce rate is driven up.

    Good point on the different demographic.

    What we do not know is whether the rates would look like that if the better candidates for marriage — the ones who are now spending those years in college and career building — were to get married at younger ages, and thereby even out the divorce rate by age of first marriage. In other words, currently the demographics of the early marriage group and later marriage group are so different that it is hard to tease out whether the demographics actually drives the divorce rate difference or the age at first marriage, in and of itself, does.

    The authors of The Bell Curve make a compelling argument that this is about IQ, and that higher levels of education actually increase divorce rates (more here):

    The consistent finding, represented fairly by the figure, was that higher IQ was still associated with a lower probability of divorce after extracting the effects of other variables, and parental SES had a significant positive relationship to divorce–that is, IQ being equal, children of higher-status families were more likely to get divorced than children of lower-status families.

    It is clear to all researchers who examine the data that higher education is associated with lower levels of divorce. This was certainly true of the NLSY, where the college sample (persons with a bachelor’s degree, no more and no less) had a divorce rate in the first five years of marriage that was less than half that of the high school sample: 7 percent compared to 19 percent. But this raw outcome is deceptive. Holding some critical other things equal–IQ, socioeconomic status, age, and date of marriage–the divorce rate for the high school graduates in the first five years of marriage was lower than for college graduates.

  39. Asaph says:

    More like a period or climate
    rather than season

  40. Bee says:

    Recent embrace of Same Sex Attraction (SSA) is making the delay of marriage even worse for Evangelicals:

    https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/04/11/young-christians-stop-embracing-your-singleness-and-start-preparing-for-marriage/

    It was bad before, now even worse!!

  41. Novaseeker says:

    Dalrock —

    Ah, that makes sense. It just so happens that more people with higher IQs are in the educated demographic, which tends to lessen their divorce rates relatively speaking. If you are low IQ and educated, you still have a high divorce rate. I guess the moral is: don’t be low IQ.

  42. Anonymous Reader says:

    vfm7916
    Dads who virtue signal that they protect their daughters innocence and push the “You can be anything!” idea fall neatly in to the category Dalrock notes.

    But, wait, Purity RIng! What about that Purity Ring?!

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    @3r52
    With all respect, it isn’t 1995 anymore. A lot has changed in the last 23 years. It would be interesting to see that graph updated at least to 2010.

  44. Anonymous Reader says:

    By the way, Dalrock, this data visualization is really good. At first I thought it was redundant vs. “age at first marriage” but this really does bring home just what that “geological season of singleness” really looks like. College campus ministers really need to see this.

  45. Oscar says:

    @ Dalrock

    But what they are selling when using the term season of singleness isn’t biblical. It is pure rationalization of why Christians are following the feminist script.

    Nah. It’s merely a coincidence that God is calling an increasing number of christian women to a decade-long “season of singleness” after the feminist, sexual revolution.

  46. Oscar says:

    @ 3r52

    Well, early marriage sounds good to me, but they tend to suffer a higher divorce rate… it doesn’t start to level out until around age 25.

    True, but people married much younger in the past, and divorce rates were much lower. Why do you suppose that is?

  47. Vektor says:

    A ‘season of singleness’. Ok, great. No, don’t settle. That would be a ‘sin’ and stuff.

    Reminds me of an insightful quote, though I am not sure who said it…
    “It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.”

  48. Hmm says:

    Vektor – that comment was from a Demotivators poster that I saw. But you could certainly sustain the same line looking at the stories in the Bible.

  49. For Catholics, I see at least a part of this in connection with the general crisis of vocations (to the priesthood and especially to the religious life). At some point in the late 1950s to 1960s, there was a shift in the understanding of how to discern. For most of the Church’s history, following the Father’s and Aquinas, the primary indicator of a vocation was a resolve of the will to choose that state. We see God’s hand in this resolve because it is only through God’s Grace that we can do anything; we must be moved to do it by God, and this is especially true with huge life choices like whether to get married or not.

    From that emphasis on the will the theology shifted to focus on a vague mystical attraction located in the passions. It was a subjective attraction to the priesthood rather than an objective resolve of the will (as well as objectively fitting certain criteria for the life chosen) that was the primary indicator of a vocation.

    I think with respect to marriage this really confused things because unlike the religious life marriage does require a level of attraction to the life (that is to the life with a specific person, not to some idealized or romantic version of marriage in one’s head). It’s also confusing because sexual/conjugal attractions can change quickly and often without an identifiable reason especially prior to marriage. A healthy emphasis on a resolve of the will clears up a lot of the confusion about how to know whether one is called by God to marry some specific person: if he is moving you to choose to marry someone, that’s a very strong indicator. And I think that’s why in general there’s a huge vocation crisis, and I think we should make no mistake: the divorce epidemic is a crisis of vocation, a widespread failure to persevere in the life chosen by an individual.

  50. American says:

    The devil approves of so-called Christian females engaging in monogamous fornication (one sexual unmarried sexual partner at a time) while endlessly “waiting on God” for a husband.

    The devil is all about making sure so-called Christian females don’t form godly nuclear families with a male and together raise children to be strong Christians who then repeat the cycle.

    In fact, this whole Christian thing has been a real thorn in satan’s side since the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He thinks it’s best just to nip the whole thing in the bud and fortunately for him there’s plenty of ignorant, deceived, immoral, feminist so-called Christian females in Western Civilization more than willing to help him do just that. Isn’t there, Miss Washington.

  51. >They tell women to love themselves above all others, even if that means living alone.

    Wow, not even live for your 5 cats anymore? Things really are going downhill, aren’t they?

  52. adam says:

    Dalrock,

    Can you add recession shading to this chart? I can’t tell but it may be that the age spread stops rising temporarily in the years of or immediately following a recession (at least 91, 01 and briefly with the Great Recession).

    If this is the case it would suggest that some “younger” women respond to poor economic conditions (difficulty finding a job?) by getting married.

    Again not sure of this or any other hypothesis without the recessions added in.

  53. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    As if women need to be TOLD to “love themselves above others.”

    One of the most common cliches spouted by Hollywood, and pop psychology, is: You cannot love others until you first learn to love yourself.

    This is the “valuable lesson” that many characters learn at the end of many a sitcom episode or TV movie. “You know, I’ve come to realize that my mistake was that I was trying to please everyone else, without first learning to please myself.”

    The other characters then nod respectfully at the Great Truh that was just laid on them.

  54. dudedont says:

    Textbook 2nd Timothy 1-5.

    The church is full of narcissists.

  55. Hank Flanders says:

    RE: Women loving themselves:

    It’s sad that musically, it’s actually a decent song.

  56. Arthur Sido says:

    Not every women, or even very many women, are 30 year old former beauty contestant “Success Coaches” . She has held aging at bay pretty well but the average 30 year old single woman is losing that fight, and losing badly.

  57. info says:

    @Oscar
    “Nah. It’s merely a coincidence that God is calling an increasing number of christian women to a decade-long “season of singleness” after the feminist, sexual revolution.”

    They lack the spirit that guides into all truth. Therefore they are not saved.

  58. a bee ee? says:

    That graph is rather strange. I wouldn’t say it’s misleading, but it would be much more straightforward simply to show median age at first marriage. Just add 18 to each data point.

  59. American says:

    Some females, during their “season of singleness,” like to get what’s called “vampire facials.” No, I’m not kidding. I wish I could say I was but I’m not.

    And some of these self-absorbed females contract a case of HIV with their vampire facial: https://youtu.be/bJo2s8L1od4

  60. Anon says:

    That graph is rather strange. I wouldn’t say it’s misleading, but it would be much more straightforward simply to show median age at first marriage. Just add 18 to each data point.

    I disagree. It is better the way it is.

    The magnitude of carousel riding would not be as evident if the post-18 interval were depicted as total age. Five times the interval after 18 means (on average), five times as much carousel riding.

  61. JT says:

    As you can see from Oscar’s chart, the marriage age hit a low after WWII. Starting the chart then will make the gap look as bad as possible. They didn’t get really high until the 2000s.

    It’s possible it took that long for the effects from the 60s to kick in. But I think some other cultural forces appeared as well (i.e. the Internet).

  62. Anon says:

    As you can see from Oscar’s chart, the marriage age hit a low after WWII. Starting the chart then will make the gap look as bad as possible.

    22 vs. 20 is still within the noise variance. A slight shortage of men (from WW2 deaths and injuries) made some parents a bit more desperate to marry off their daughters.

    But an *average* of 28 or higher (now 30) really is evidence of a systemic problem, given that peak fertility is 19-27, and the fall-off after 32 or so is pretty steep.

  63. BillyS says:

    I am not convinced that the higher divorce rate for younger marriages is accurate, since it doesn’t account for economic status, as some noted above. Losers marrying will always be at risk. Age is not the issue, drug use and other idiocy is.

    ====

    A general note: I heard the “season of singleness being shoved around quite a bit 40 years ago, so it is far from a new thing.

    It is idiocy. You are either called to singleness or you are not. You should be preparing yourself for marriage if not, but few women do that any more and most men are responding to incentives because of that.

  64. Spike says:

    Why are women so terrified of ”settling”? They are as terrified of ”settling” as they are of ”being judged”.
    What is amazing about Allyson Rowe is that she is giving women the same advice every other woman is giving. There may be safety in numbers, but they have had plenty of time to look at the numbers of declining marriages and fertility rates, not to mention the increased numbers of abortions and birth defects, to know that this is bad advice.
    Has Ms Rowe looked at some statistics? I hope one day a woman will look at numbers and bend her feelings to alter them, but I won’t hold my breath waiting.

  65. Opus says:

    David Hume said that Reason (i.e. IQ) was the slave of the passions and thus I am having difficulty equating a high I.Q. with stability in marriage. My own observation of high IQ people is that their intelligence is frequently no brake upon self-destructive and frankly often appalling behaviour. I am also although I have nothing much to back it up with a little bit of an I.Q. sceptic for people hold a high I.Q. up for themselves as one of the acceptable forms of social snobbery and supremacy. Telling someone they are stupid is still socially acceptable – an insult under the guise of a rational judgement.

    To change the subject: the vertiginous rise in the age of marriage is a cause for concern and yet what I so often see is women bearing children and then at some later time deciding that marriage to the Father of their children is the next hypergamous step in their pursuit of happiness. Cohabitation is not in my view marriage but it is very close. Were cohabitation to be taken into account would the average marrying age greatly decline?

    I am always amused as to how Americans (such as Ms Rowe) have a hot line to God. Who am I to deny it and yet I am pretty sure that the super-fast broadband necessary for connection to the almighty has yet to be installed on the other side of the Atlantic.

  66. The Other Scott says:

    All is processing as was forseen:

    And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people:

    “‘Keep on hearing,[c] but do not understand;
    keep on seeing,[d] but do not perceive.’
    10 Make the heart of this people dull,[e]
    and their ears heavy,
    and blind their eyes;
    lest they see with their eyes,
    and hear with their ears,
    and understand with their hearts,
    and turn and be healed.”
    11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
    And he said:
    “Until cities lie waste
    without inhabitant,
    and houses without people,
    and the land is a desolate waste,
    12 and the Lord removes people far away,
    and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
    13 And though a tenth remain in it,
    it will be burned[f] again,
    like a terebinth or an oak,
    whose stump remains
    when it is felled.”
    The holy seed[g] is its stump.
    Isaiah 6:8-13

    Not only is the nothing we can do there is nothing we should do except guard ourselves and prepare for the end.

  67. Thewestisweak says:

    What is this madness? In my country (in Africa) there is no waiting, because waiting brings a window of temptation and possible loss of virginity and decline in fertility. No boyfriend / girlfriend business like western countries. Old enough to fool around with opposite sex means old enough to marry, bear children and keep house. Our girls get educated but we take a dim view of old single people i e men over 25 and girls over 20. No one runs for public office even at grassroots level without being married because “boys” don’t rule or marry. Men marry and rule. Females are either children or wives, no “in-between” Polygamy is constitutional to ensure no woman is left behind.

  68. Anchorman says:

    the second video seems more like a plea for reassurance than advice. It’s sad, really.

    In many ways, when I hear videos, like this, it’s like they’re repeating words to several songs in the attempt to create “my song.” Mush mash of “blessing” (a truly misused and misunderstood word in the modern world – people can be blessed in poverty and in sickness, it’s not the same as “good fortune”), “seasons,” and “calling.”

  69. Hmm says:

    Christian women need to “lower their standards” in marriage to God’s standards, which involve her as well as him: “Is he a Christian? Is he a man I can respect? Is he someone I can and will obey? Will I joyfully become one flesh with him at his desire?”

    The last three are difficult, both because a woman is tempted to go by feelz, and because they all require an anti-cultural, anti-feminist turning away from self-centeredness. Women often turn them around: “He needs to respect me. Will he do what I say? We’ll have sex when I say so.”

    Many Christian women compromise on the first and most important standard: “Do not be unequally yoked to unbelievers.” It seemed right at the time. Besides, the love of a good woman would bring him to Jesus. And so they fall away.

  70. Cliffton D. Adams says:

    Asaph says:
    May 1, 2019 at 4:14 pm

    More like a period or climate
    rather than season
    I prefer period for the double entendre alone.

  71. Ron Tomlinson says:

    @opus,

    >David Hume said that Reason (i.e. IQ) was the slave of the passions and thus I am having difficulty equating a high I.Q. with stability in marriage. My own observation of high IQ people is that their intelligence is frequently no brake upon self-destructive and frankly often appalling behaviour.

    Yes. Hume was a very intelligent atheist. Yet he was better man than suggested by the above. Just before he died, he wrote:

    >I was, I say, a man of mild disposition, of command of temper, of an open, social, and cheerful humour, capable of attachment, but little susceptible of enmity, and of great moderation in all my passions.

    This doesn’t read like a man out of control does it? I think the reality is that reason combined with the self-awareness and honesty which comes from goodness and religion provide a way of balancing and integrating the passions into a consistent whole.

    Somehow, goodness is more intelligent than intelligence itself. If recruiting to a high IQ team it’s probably better to add a good person rather than just another high IQ.

  72. vandicus says:

    Reason being slave to the passions is a moral claim. That is reason has no purpose beyond to serve our desires, and that reason cannot create purpose or moral meaning(sate hunger using reason, as opposed to reason telling us we ought to eat).

  73. For guys, it’s the car parked out in your driveway. For girls, it’s the man parked in your bedroom. And it only really matters what other people think about both, isn’t it? Although I suppose there is some intrinsic enjoyment you get out of both. Some.

    I guess the guy equivalent of hypergamy would be leasing Ferraris until you go broke and then desperately finding the best used BMW or Mercedes you can afford with what credit you have left. And then when you find out a used Merc is a money pit of junk, grudgingly driving a KIA Spectra into the ground.

    Some young guys do something similar although maybe not to that extreme with cars. Start out young financing a Camaro SS and then as economic reality kicks your ass, downgrading to more affordable cars.

  74. Scott says:

    3r52

    The only problem with that data is it fails to account for a confounding variable, and one that is pretty important.

    When you adjust that data for folks who make is past the first 7 years, the divorce rate actually quite a bit lower across the board.

    The couples, no matter how old they are when they get married, who decide that they simply will not divorce and they will fight through whatever comes their way last.

    And that point, for some reason is really tested around 5-9 years in. What is know from the survey data of couples who make it that long is once they do, they report being in an even MORE blissful marriage because the struggles bring them closer. The “seven year itch” appears to be a real thing.

    It seems that a social pressure to not divorce, along with help from dear friends and extended family (everyone adhearing to the same mantra–DO NOT DIVORCE, THIS IS TEMPORARY) would really be helpful to have.

    Also, renewed faith in the concept of delayed gratification–reminding couples that on the other side of this trial is a deeper lover for each other than you can even imagine if you can just get through it–would also help.

  75. Scott says:

    …continued…if you have been married long enough, you know that there are time when you wake up, turn over and look at the other person and have a revulsion of hate and resentment. It sometimes gets that bad.

    You have to get past THAT level of despair–fight for it no matter what–to reach the other side. But nobody believes that anymore.

  76. DeepThought says:

    I am a Muslim but I enjoy coming to your site because I want to better understand what has destroyed Christianity to ensure these same cancers to not infest Islam.

    Once people accepted women preachers it was the start of the death knell for Christianity. There is a reason why God forbid women from preaching.

  77. DeepThought says:

    @3r52 The reason divorce decrease is simple. Your options are reduced as you age. I would expect men and women marrying in their 50’s to have spectacular rates of successful marriage.

  78. vandicus says:

    Female preachers are relatively late in the game, and so more of a symptom than a cause(though they certainly make things worse).

    Dalrock has traced things back to chivalric love, which reversed the proper roles of man and woman. In chivalric love the man treats the woman as his master, as opposed to the Christian set up of woman loving men submissively(as unto the Lord) and men loving women self sacrifically(as Christ loves the Church). This idea is transmitted through literature so by the time they try to change things openly, everyone has already been convinced. Immunization would require making the evil in the ideas clear to people from the beginning.

    I would also suggest conflating romantic love for love as it is employed in the Bible has been a problem.

  79. DeepThought says:

    She shows a lot of skin for a devout and modest girl.

  80. The Epiphany Phase is a helluva drug.

  81. Novaseeker says:

    Dalrock has traced things back to chivalric love, which reversed the proper roles of man and woman.

    It not only reverses them, but it makes the woman’s behavior unlimited. In the Christian vision, the man is to love the woman sacrificially as the woman is to submit to the man. In the chivalric vision, the man is to submit to and serve the woman, and the woman is subject to no limits … she actually is entitled to behave capriciously and even cruelly — there are literally no limits on her behavior in this model. This is precisely why we see the “conservative” Christian enthusiasts of chivalry being so reluctant to enforce any limits against women … it just “feels wrong”, from a chivalry perspective. From a chivalry perspective, women can do what they like, and a man’s role is to submit and to serve her regardless, in an effort to endlessly “win her love”. When that’s the frame, you don’t criticize women’s behavior, you take it as a sign that the man, whose “job” it is to serve and submit to her wishes, isn’t doing so well enough so as to merit her love in return … in other words, the man is “doing it wrong”, because the system admits to no limits on a woman’s behavior, period.

  82. Anonymous Reader says:

    Spike
    Why are women so terrified of ”settling”?

    Just for a start: Hypergamy plus choice addiction.

    They are as terrified of ”settling” as they are of ”being judged”.

    “Being judged” rouses the ancient hindbrain fear of being thrown out of the tribe, abandoned. In prehistoric times that meant death.

  83. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deep Thought
    She shows a lot of skin for a devout and modest girl.

    It’s a combination of hypergamy and learned behavior: showing skin has ‘worked’ for years.

  84. Paul says:

    @vandicus

    Female preachers are relatively late in the game, and so more of a symptom than a cause(though they certainly make things worse).

    Dalrock has traced things back to chivalric love, which reversed the proper roles of man and woman. In chivalric love the man treats the woman as his master, as opposed to the Christian set up of woman loving men submissively(as unto the Lord) and men loving women self sacrifically(as Christ loves the Church).

    And I deeply suspect that we can trace it back further. In paganism, goddess worship is a significant factor, which even influenced the nation of Israel. When the early Church developed, several influences from surrounding cultures were incorporated, similar to what you nowadays see how the RCC has dealt with pagan influences in Southern America; there’s even a theological term for it: stealing from the Egyptians.

    Similarly I see that the admiration of Mary the mother of Jesus, progressively attributed more and more divine qualities to her, to the point where a large part of Christianity is devoted to her to the point of goddess worship (which the RCC officially condemns, but not actively combats). The whole pattern of chivalric love, where a woman is idolized, is sexually unavailable, is the ideal picture of woman, with not even the possibility of sin attached to her, is eerily similar to goddess worship of Mary. Combine that with mandatory celibacy of the clergy, extreme strict views and restrictions on (regular) sexuality between husband and wife, and the Augustinian influence of sex being impure in itself, and spiritual adoration as the most pure form of Christian living.

    I think that is where the idolizing of women in Christianity started to get a strong foothold.

    And maybe we should not be surprised, as it was Adam who followed the lead of his wife into sin, instead of resisting her.

  85. Novaseeker says:

    I think that is where the idolizing of women in Christianity started to get a strong foothold.

    The problem with your theory is that Eastern Orthodoxy venerates Mary at least as much as the Catholics do, and has sexual fasting and so on (i.e, restrictions on marital sexuality), but Orthodoxy doesn’t come close to treating women anything like any of the Western Christian churches do, whether Catholic or Protestant. Something else happened in the West that made things go awry in the West in a way that they did not in the Eastern Church … and that thing is chivalry. Chivalry simply doesn’t exist in the cultures of the Eastern Churches historically. Some of the ideas are being imported now into Orthodox countries after the collapse of communism in Europe in 1990, together with the general importation of Western European cultural norms, but it hasn’t influenced the development of the Eastern Church because historically chivalry didn’t penetrate the Orthodox countries … it was a product of the West.

  86. info says:

    @Novaseeker @Paul
    It looks like Chivalry has reacted with the veneration of Mary to take the form that it took in the West.

  87. Otto says:

    In no other part of life are people advised to wait until God presents you with your goal.

    Want a job? Don’t look for one, wait till God drops a job in your lap.
    Want a house? Don’t look for one, wait till God places the right house in your path.
    Want an education? Don’t enroll in school, wait till God presents you with a scholarship.
    Want food? Don’t go to the grocery, wait till God causes a meal to be delivered to your door.

    Ms. Rowe is teaching fatalism.

  88. Otto says:

    Besides the bad advice, she is also a bottle blonde, wears too much makeup (to cover her age I’m guessing), seems to have had lip injections, and shows a lot of skin. In other words, she has gotten by on her looks most of her life, has hit the wall, and is not a reformed good-girl. Not a good role model for how to navigate life.

    Before wall: http://missosology.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/washington.jpg

    Now (after wall): https://i.ytimg.com/vi/m0eE17GICpE/maxresdefault.jpg

  89. Hank Flanders says:

    Anonymous Reader

    LOL, that’s on the same level as astrology or a fortune cookie. Women are so very superstitious.

    Yeah, I think the concept of “the one” has been pushed too much in the modern church in general, but fortunately, some seem to be realizing it’s not biblical. I find the subject interesting, so I did a quick search and found an article by ChristianPost about this refreshingly good blog post. The comments are interesting as well:

    https://theartinlife.blog/2013/07/22/my-husband-is-not-my-soul-mate/

  90. innocentbystanderboston says:

    I think it is okay to say the following: #1) marriage may very well be for all Christian women but there is a significant (and increasing) percentage of young women that are just not emotionally mature enough to be a wife, #2) a Christian woman can only marry a man that actually asks her (not the other way around), #3) Feminist inspired No-Fault-Divorce laws have created so many legal and financial disincentives for men to marry that a submissive Christian woman who wants to marry will have far fewer options than she would otherwise, and #4) these student loans really do become a form of “Anti-Dowry” for the marriage minded Christian woman.

    She can’t do anything about #2 or #3. Those are externalities that may have nothing to do with her personally which may draw out her timeline for first marriage. #1 is a very hard thing for many Christian women to admit about themselves. But when they finally come to terms with that, then and only then are they are peace and they can begin to “change” things about themselves such that they have a better frame of mind at accepting “submission.” #4 is entirely within their control as they could simply NOT attend college/university and accumulate no debt. But that is also very risky as staying home and not attending school (I don’t know what they are going to do) allows all the OTHER girls who ARE willing to take on debt by attending school to be around the young men who may pursue them. So there is risk either way. Bottom line, all 4 of these issues tend to create a natural “delay” in the timeline by which a Christian woman must operate before she becomes a MRS. And that “delay” will ever increase.

  91. vandicus says:

    @Paul
    While marriage may degenerate into adultery and veneration may become wrongly directed adoration that does not condemn the practices in and of themselves. Moreover similarities does not imply the same origin. Baptism is not from other faiths anymore than Calvin’s iconoclasm was from the same origins as the iconoclasm in the Byzantine empire(a Sola Scriptura grounded iconoclasm vs one more focused on idolatry).

    The Catholic Church’s teachings on sexuality are largely grounded on natural law, and consequently are generally applicable to other forms of sin. Gluttony for instance. Given the generally wildly hedonistic beliefs of the local pagans, this cannot be derived from contemporary regional competitors. If one were to attempt to accuse the Catholic Church of paganism one would do better to look at the Pagan philosophers of several centuries prior, who none deny influenced the early Church fathers and time and argumentation was spent discussing their salvation.

    The issue of ecumenicism is a modern matter having emerged only recently. The Church naturally rejects syncreticism (though this will occur anyways) it purports that insofar as the religions hold true beliefs, those particular beliefs are good.

    That the Catholic Church has been ineffective in maintaining the doctrines of the faith in its adherents has been the case since the beginning. Heresy always emerges, even the Apostles had to combat it.

    Heresy tends to be subtle. The world is an illusion and only the spirit world(for lack of a better word) is real, vs the world is real but temporal and corrupted and there is also a spirit world, vs the world is all that there is. An incorrect belief may not be harmful in and of itself as many of the saints held contradictory views(if the theology of the Catholic Church were complete it would cease to develop), but it tends to lead to further errors which conclude in sin. Calvinism eventually reached its natural conclusion in once saved always saved(being pre-damned or pre-saved rather logically brings one to certain conclusions).

  92. Joe2 says:

    @Novaseeker

    The middle class and above started to prioritize education for their daughters — again, in part as divorce insurance but in part also because it became a middle class norm for parents, especially fathers, to take pride in their daughters’ achievements educationally and professionally.

    The census data reporting the percentage of men and women 25 years and over with 4 years of college or higher shows,

    In 1950 – 7.3% of men and 5.2% of women
    In 2000 – 26.1% of men and 22.8% of women

    During the 50 year period (1950 – 2000) the percentage of women with 4 years of college or higher increased, but the percentage of men with 4 years of college or higher increased as well. The emphasis was on education for all overall. It wasn’t that the education of their daughters was prioritized, but rather their education was simply in accord with the education of men which resulted in maintaining ratios of college and higher educated men to women similar to those in 1950.

  93. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hank Flanders
    Yeah, I think the concept of “the one” has been pushed too much in the modern church in general

    “The one” is a Romantic concept that can be traced to the Cult of Courtly love. It’s toxic. Therefore any pushing of “The One” is too much.

    Men are the true romantics, therefore “the one” needs to be demolished often.
    Women are very superstitious, therefore…

  94. Novaseeker says:

    It wasn’t that the education of their daughters was prioritized, but rather their education was simply in accord with the education of men which resulted in maintaining ratios of college and higher educated men to women similar to those in 1950.

    Yes, there is a greater emphasis on education overall in the middle class as the 20th Century moves to its second half — no question. However the point is that this impacted young women in a way that pushed out marriage, which leads to more fornication across the board as a matter of course. And Christians went along with this because it was seen as “economically necessary” (which is always the way the life script is seen, otherwise it wouldn’t be a life script).

    Another detail … the ratios of men and women attending college since 2000 have skewed rather female, as I am sure you are aware (60/40 female in most places, 65/35 in many others and the trend across the board in schools that don’t goose their admissions to maintain gender parity is all in the same direction) — that is, college is increasingly becoming a female thing. In the years ahead the overall percentage of men and women with college degrees will also skew rather female as a result.

  95. Spacetraveller says:

    Otto,

    Your before the wall photo: THAT’s a Christian woman?
    Uh-huh…

    You know, I was about to write something along the lines of… well, she makes quite good points actually, we are all called to be prudent in choosing a spouse, and for women, extreme patience and some degree of passivity is required, in order not to seem so desperate/eager, blah blah blah.

    Until I saw your photo…
    Good grief.
    Her message doesn’t seem consistent with her …self.
    (And whilst it doesn’t always seem necessary to link the message with the messenger, in this case I am afraid it does matter hugely WHO is saying what).

    If she doesn’t walk the walk, only talks the talk, the message (which now seems all wrong in the context of her own permissive background) is somehow ‘lost in translation’ to her audience, who are presumably young women slighlty younger than her.

    So no, she is no role model…certainly not a Christian one!

    Next…

  96. feministhater says:

    College is now also becoming useless for the vast majority of graduates. Let the women go, let them spend their best years getting dicked and being charged for it. Let the cucks send their daughters off to get fucked and get that piece of toilet paper. What does it matter? Do you really think they would be good and decent wives instead? Society does not care. It stabbed men in the back, told them they were not needed and decided to entirely favour females in everything. Now they can break their backs to keep the charade going.

    Society does not run without men at the wheel. It is increasingly becoming apparent. Look at the caliber of what is coming out of universities? These are the entitled non-starts that will inherit the broken system and haven’t a clue on how to fix it. They are owned already. Their minds of worthless.

    Men are a requirement in the baking of the cake that is Western Civilisation. Society forcibly removed that ingredient and tried using a substitute. That substitute, through early education, abused boys and made them weak. Now they can all die alone.

    The societies that promote men and masculinity will survive and thrive, the ones that don’t will die.

  97. Novaseeker says:

    Until I saw your photo…
    Good grief.
    Her message doesn’t seem consistent with her …self.

    @Space —

    Well this is the point, though. The woman is a former Miss Washington — i.e., a beauty queen. They tend to do photo shoots professionally, it’s a part of what they do. One might think that is inconsistent with being a Christian, but not in the world of American Christianity, and that is the point. American Christian women do basically whatever they like when it comes to displaying their bodies, and at church as well. There is nothing in the culture of American Christianity that acts to restrict or limit them, which is why you end up with bikini models for Jesus. Heck I remember a few years ago there was an article about a Christian woman who offered pole dancing lessons to other women in her church … they would go to her home studio to practice after services … all for the fitness benefits, of course, ahem. This is one of the recurring themes of this blog: American Christian women are running free with their sexual display, and the church abides by it just fine … if anyone raises an issue the response is always that men need to get their heads out of the gutter and not objectify women!

  98. Paul says:

    @Novaseeker

    I know too little of Eastern Orthodoxy to make solid statements, but an important difference between it and the RCC, is that it does not enforce celibacy on priests, and actually expects priests to be married. That takes away an important pillar of the list of factors that might lead to the idolization of “Woman” as in Chivalry.

    Although I see strong similarities, I still need to some more digging based on my suspicion.

  99. vandicus says:

    Orthodox priests can’t marry after being ordained. For Catholics(which actually employ the same rules for Eastern Catholics(orthodox in communion with Rome)) this is simply a policy and not doctrine.

    The two main points in contention were the authority of the Pope and the authority of the Emperor(over Eastern Christianity which claimed the “Roman empire” was the kingdom of God manifest), and the disputes emerging from that secular authority and its various attempts to subvert doctrine have disappeared.

  100. Anonymous Reader says:

    spacetraveller
    Her message doesn’t seem consistent with her …self.

    Golly!
    Where’s my astonished face? … 😲

  101. feministhater says:

    Don’t think Spacetraveller really understands that the Christian woman of today is entirely no different from the common female, except in her expectations in regards to a husband. They sleep around, they use fake-up, they promote career above marriage, the delay family formation until their thirties and generally do exactly the same things their non-Christian sisters do.

    They are Christian in name only. Like this Allyson Rowe chick, they bask in the glory of their beauty when they are young and use it to the fullest, with boyfriend after boyfriend, until they reach the wall and then they use shame and control to get a man to wife them up. They will work as models, actresses and whatever else. They will not promote good, wholesome behaviour.

    They waste their youth on everything else but their husband. Even the scraps are too good for him.

  102. Caspar Reyes says:

    Yet another perfect example why women are not permitted to teach in the assembly.

    Plus, anyone who uses the word “adulting” is a child playing grownup. Instagram renders girls useless in a way analogous to what too many nekkid pitchers can do to a man.

  103. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Spike: Why are women so terrified of ”settling”?

    Because then they might miss out on something better, just around the corner.

    You’ve heard the joke about the husband store: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/the-husband-store/

  104. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Nova,

    Yes, there is a greater emphasis on education overall in the middle class as the 20th Century moves to its second half — no question. However the point is that this impacted young women in a way that pushed out marriage, which leads to more fornication across the board as a matter of course. And Christians went along with this because it was seen as “economically necessary” (which is always the way the life script is seen, otherwise it wouldn’t be a life script).

    The life script has changed. So Christians (in the United States) had to change.

    To manufacture a “consumer good”, you need repetitive labor that is well formed. When our economy was predicated mostly on the manufacture of consumer goods, it was then possible (even likely) that you could marry young and have a “middle class” lifestyle. You can do “well formed work” at age 18 as well as you can do it at age 48. Thus, unions were all-powerful and very numerous in 1950 when the United States manufactured everything for the entire world still recovering and rebuilding from World War II. The United States had 50% of the entire earth’s GDP in 1950. Christianity in the United States just went along for the “middle class” ride for that happy, nuclear family, when most married young and you were the one who got to break your wife’s hymen. Dad knew that his daughter (in 1950) if she (at age 20) married a would-be union man (also age 20), she’d have that middle class life.

    That is all gone.

    Now, thanks to globalism (and the “race to the bottom” on wages) China makes all the “consumer goods” for the entire world. And why? Because #1) they work the cheapest in the world, #2) the work is so “well formed” (so the company can train anyone, living anywhere, to do everything), AND #3) because you can count on submissive Chinese workers to show up to work every day, straight and sober. As a result, collective bargaining and union membership for private sector jobs is down to about 5% of all jobs (down from 50% in 1950) in the United States. Yes we still have massive manufacturing in the United States but not in the way of small “consumer goods.” We build just the really big stuff (automobiles, airplanes, air conditioners, aircraft engines) so long as it is cheaper to build here than ship from “elsewhere.” The other 45% who would punch a clock in a plant to build something? Ha. Now they punch a clock at Wal-Mart to stock a shelf with something made in China. And no, that job does not (nor will it ever) provide a “middle class” lifestyle. So Christians decided (in 1970s and especially the 1980s) its time for daughter to go to university to “catch a man” and work on her MRS degree. Yup, as I said in an earlier post, that really started pushing up the age of first marriage (the whole point of this thread.)

    But education has changed dramatically.

    Working on your “middle class” MRS degree at university (with 65% of the students are female) and you get out of school with $100K in student loan debt? Ouch! No thanks seems to be the response from young men. Why get married if you can just play Fortnite? So lets push the age for first marriage even higher, and higher still. I wouldn’t be surprised if (by 2021) that first age for women is 30. We are trending that way. And Christianity doesn’t seem to be slowing it down.

    As they say in politics every other November: “Its the economy, stupid.”

  105. Spacetraveller says:

    Novaseeker,
    Thanks for the explanation.
    Well, I did miss the part of her being a Miss. Washington.
    But I don’t think my lapse changes anything…
    You are right, it does seem very much like she can do whatever she wants, and then come and preach to others, who are probably much more Christian-like than she is!

    It seems ridiculous…
    I am not against beauty pageants per se. I think however that they can be tastefully presented. That photo is rather vulgar. A little toning down and it could have been a lot more tasteful.

    I think it is rather nice for men in general to enjoy women’s beauty. It rather escaped me before, how nice it can be for men to admire female beauty in general, and a particular woman’s specifically. But alas, not to lead him astray of course. The Limit is there all right. We just need to find it and respect it.
    That photo does not respect the boundary in my view…

    AR,
    LOL. Talk about stating the obvious…

    FH,

    Alas you are right. Occasionally I get shocked at certain things, but it shouldn’t really surprise me, what I see sometimes.
    The problem is, I am not much older than her, so when I get shocked, I feel like an old ‘Yiayia’ type which then horrifies me!

  106. Novaseeker says:

    So Christians decided (in 1970s and especially the 1980s) its time for daughter to go to university to “catch a man” and work on her MRS degree. Yup, as I said in an earlier post, that really started pushing up the age of first marriage (the whole point of this thread.)

    But education has changed dramatically.

    Working on your “middle class” MRS degree at university (with 65% of the students are female) and you get out of school with $100K in student loan debt? Ouch! No thanks seems to be the response from young men. Why get married if you can just play Fortnite? So lets push the age for first marriage even higher, and higher still. I wouldn’t be surprised if (by 2021) that first age for women is 30. We are trending that way. And Christianity doesn’t seem to be slowing it down.

    As they say in politics every other November: “Its the economy, stupid.”

    Except it isn’t an Mrs. Degree that the fathers are looking for their daughters to get. That was in the 1950s-early 1970s. Beginning in the late 1970s and certainly by the 1980s the girls were predominantly not attending college to get an Mrs. degree, but to get an education that could be the basis for their own job/career. This intensified as the 80s wore on, and by the 90s it was institutionalized. No father after 1990 was sending his daughter to college to get an Mrs. degree — he was sending her there to get a credential so that she could get a job of her own, not “catch a man”. The pushing up of the age of first marriage is primarily related to that trend, not to girls attending college to get an Mrs. degree and not finding men who are interested in that.

  107. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Thewestisweak: Polygamy is constitutional to ensure no woman is left behind.

    Polygamy leaves a lot of men behind. Is that any better?

    We have polygamy now, in the United States. The 20/80 rule means that Alphas have harems, and most men go thirsty.

    Polygamy is not God’s design. It does not make for a stable, functioning society. A strong middle class, and fidelity in marriage (one man, one woman, for life) create strong societies.

  108. goFigure says:

    RPL,

    The word you are looking for is polygyny. Unless you are really expecting women to agree to be passed from one mans harem to the next harem. Then polygamy is the right word.

  109. Dalrock says:

    @IBB

    As they say in politics every other November: “Its the economy, stupid.”

    Yes, it would more difficult for young women to marry today than in the past, even if they were seriously looking for a husband while young. But this is a burst of chaff to misdirect us, because (for the most part) they aren’t seriously looking while young. Wendy Griffith wasn’t seriously looking for a husband when she was young. Neither was Allyson Rowe. Both have massive entitlement complexes, so large that outside Christian culture they would (understandably) be mistaken for satire. Both focused on feminist goals in their youth, while claiming they were simply too conservative to go about finding a husband. And what is really telling is that these two women are indicative of the role models young Christian women and even older Christian men have chosen to teach the proper way Christian women should go about getting married.

    This is feminism cloaked in denial and misdirection. When you burn through one layer of denial and misdirection (God led a generation of women to delay marriage in response to the sexual revolution and second wave feminism!), another layer pops up. That’s how this game is played. The funny thing is no one even bothers defending the reason Christian culture tells us this is happening. So the defenders of the lie blow right past defending the lie, and instead come up with another rationalization.

  110. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Nova,

    No father after 1990 was sending his daughter to college to get an Mrs. degree — he was sending her there to get a credential so that she could get a job of her own, not “catch a man”.

    Uuuhhhhh, I worked with a man who paid full freight for his daughter to attend Medical School for her Mrs Degree, and that was in 2015! Yes, she caught a man (a medical doctor.)

    Remember Susan Patton? Do any of you? This super-Hypergamy was written in 2013.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/princeton-women-husbands-princetonian-2013-3

    I am the mother of two sons who are both Princetonians. My older son had the good judgment and great fortune to marry a classmate of his, but he could have married anyone. My younger son is a junior and the universe of women he can marry is limitless. Men regularly marry women who are younger, less intelligent, less educated. It’s amazing how forgiving men can be about a woman’s lack of erudition, if she is exceptionally pretty. Smart women can’t (shouldn’t) marry men who aren’t at least their intellectual equal. As Princeton women, we have almost priced ourselves out of the market. Simply put, there is a very limited population of men who are as smart or smarter than we are. And I say again — you will never again be surrounded by this concentration of men who are worthy of you.

    I would agree with you Novaseeker that women who are studying STEM at university are NOT working on their MRS degrees. But for the majority of all the other under-graduate majors that are preferred by women? Meh. Art History major sounds awful MRS-y to me.

  111. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    Having spent the last 30 yrs of my life in higher education and working in higher education (University). I can tell you that the majority (north of 90%) of girls/women here are not looking for an MRS degree. If you even suggest they due so, they will blanch at the thought.

  112. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    No father after 1990 was sending his daughter to college to get an Mrs. degree — he was sending her there to get a credential so that she could get a job of her own, not “catch a man”.

    Exactly. It’ s not 1970-whatever anymore. Boomers can’t seem to get that through their heads…

    Anyway, in the modern post-1990 world a girl isn’t supposed to marry until she is established in her career. She meets her “one” on the job or at an office party or on a GNO. A surprising number of married people in the Current Year met their spouse at a bar, according to either Pew or GISS – do not have link handy, apologies.

    To state the obvious: that means college and career girls are generally becoming something like the men they want to marry.

    This shows up in some odd ways. In the last 4 or so years as my pair of The Glasses have become ever clearer, when in various social settings I’ve noticed 20-something and 30-something women qualifying themselves to men basically by reciting their job resume, maybe with some travel stories on top. “I’m a full-charge nurse in the ER at [hospital}” says the 30+ year old blonde. They are attempting to attract a man / men by acting as what they find attractive. It’s solipsistic projection on a huge scale. I hear / see it in churches as well as night spots or breaks during conferences.

    I do not hear women advertising their ability to cook. If anything, it’s the young men who are all “foodie”. It’s not the 20th century anymore…

  113. feministhater says:

    As Princeton women, we have almost priced ourselves out of the market. Simply put, there is a very limited population of men who are as smart or smarter than we are. And I say again — you will never again be surrounded by this concentration of men who are worthy of you.

    Wow! How noble of them.. I bet they just loathe being around us normal men. You can just feel the entitlement years into the future.

  114. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    I worked with a man who paid full freight for his daughter to attend Medical School for her Mrs Degree, and that was in 2015! Yes, she caught a man (a medical doctor.)

    This proves Novaseeker’s point.

    But for the majority of all the other under-graduate majors that are preferred by women? Meh. Art History major sounds awful MRS-y to me.

    When was the last time you observed art history majors in their natural habitat?

    Sorry to break the bad news, but the 1970’s are over. Have been for almost 40 years.
    PS: Reagan’s still dead, too.

  115. Anonymous Reader says:

    @goFigure

    +1

  116. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Remember Susan Patton?

    Yeah. She wrote some words that college girls ignored.
    So?

  117. feministhater says:

    IBB, you do know the linking to an old women discussing what she did at university because the women these days don’t do so anymore is actually proof that they don’t go to get a Mrs degree?

  118. feministhater says:

    PS: Reagan’s still dead, too.

    Ah sheeeit! Really?!

  119. innocentbystanderboston says:

    Dalrock,

    Yes, it would more difficult for young women to marry today than in the past, even if they were seriously looking for a husband while young. But this is a burst of chaff to misdirect us, because (for the most part) they aren’t seriously looking while young. Wendy Griffith wasn’t seriously looking for a husband when she was young. Neither was Allyson Rowe. Both have massive entitlement complexes, so large that outside Christian culture they would (rightly) be mistaken for satire. Both focused on feminist goals in their youth, while claiming they were simply too conservative to go about finding a husband.

    If a medical doctor asked Wendy Griffith to marry her when she was 20, she would have said yes. So would Allyson Rowe. So would any of them. But they had no offers SO (to keep their “pride”) they bullshit us (and bullshit themselves) and make youtubes telling us about how they weren’t really looking or they were trying to find themselves to be better Christians or what-not. Its all a lie. Now we can say that “prideful lie” was the result of the feminist imperative and I would agree with you Dalrock, but its still a lie. They were looking. They were just never picked by anyone that was (in their minds) worthy of them. That is the red pill truth gentlemen.

    There is no such thing as “The Husband Store” where a marriage minded young Christian lady can just pick the one she wants at age 19 to allow him to be the one who breaks her hymen. It doesn’t work that way. If it did, all the 19 year old virgin Christian girls would go to the floor with all the medical doctors and professional athletes. For women (even Christian women), Hypergamy Über Alles. Because there is no “Husband Store” Christian girls go to University and rack up $100K in student loans. That is (in their minds) they best they can do given economics and hypergamy.

    Aaron Clarey (Captain Capitalism) has repeatedly said that men want what he wanted, a 1940s wife. What he really wanted is women from the 1940s who were generally happy with all the men that surrounded them. The economy then made that possible. In 1950, that same 19 year old Christian girl (who wants “The Husband Store”) could marry her high school sweetheart (age 20) and send him off to work at the factory in town. Him punching that card on that time clock, that gave her 3 bedrooms, one bath, a quarter acre lot, a fridge, washing machine, oven, and a car. Boom, middle class. Hypergamy is satisfied. Today? Forget it.

    Young Christian girls are willing to get married young. But hypergamy means, never settling. Ever. Stephen Baldwin’s daughter Hailey got married at age 21 (well maybe 22.) Young. Physically, she is a perfect 10. And she didn’t squander even a minute of her youth and fertility. You know who got it all? Husband Justin Beiber. Had it been ANYONE ELSE who asked Hailey Baldwin to marry him when she was 21, forget it. Beiber fulfills the hypergamy requirement that Hailey had in her mind. She didn’t wait. But she would have if all she had to choose was any of the single Christian men on this forum.

  120. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    If a medical doctor asked Wendy Griffith to marry her when she was 20, she would have said yes. So would Allyson Rowe.

    How do you know? Why do you believe this to be true?

    Young Christian girls are willing to get married young.

    How many marriages have you personally been to in the last 5 years? Of those, how brides were under 25?

  121. feministhater says:

    Young Christian girls are willing to get married young. But hypergamy means, never settling. Ever. Stephen Baldwin’s daughter Hailey got married at age 21 (well maybe 22.) Young. Physically, she is a perfect 10. And she didn’t squander even a minute of her youth and fertility. You know who got it all? Husband Justin Beiber. Had it been ANYONE ELSE who asked Hailey Baldwin to marry him when she was 21, forget it. Beiber fulfills the hypergamy requirement that Hailey had in her mind. She didn’t wait. But she would have if all she had to choose was any of the single Christian men on this forum.

    And yet there are plenty of middle class men, even now. Yet the age of first marriage keeps creeping up. Your example isn’t exactly a stand in for America, is it? If so, I raise you Miley Cyrus, who was going to marry that hunky actor whatshisname… and yet didn’t, even though he met all the criteria you just listed. What happened?!

    Using famous people is an abysmal means of proving a point. Always has been and always will be. They don’t mix with the rest of average society for a reason.

  122. Oscar says:

    @ Scott

    …if you have been married long enough, you know that there are time when you wake up, turn over and look at the other person and have a revulsion of hate and resentment. It sometimes gets that bad.

    You have to get past THAT level of despair–fight for it no matter what–to reach the other side. But nobody believes that anymore.

    That’s good advice, but we need to acknowledge that some times there is no “other side”. Some people insist on being miserable, and on making everyone around them equally miserable. There’s little anyone can do about a spouse who insists on being miserable, and making everyone around him/her miserable.

  123. Frank K says:

    But for the majority of all the other under-graduate majors that are preferred by women? Meh. Art History major sounds awful MRS-y to me.

    The women with useless degrees unrealistically expect to get good paying jobs in .gov or Corporate America. Of course, they find out later that the government and big biz only have so many openings for people with their useless credentials and many find themselves stuck working in retail or waiting on tables.

  124. innocentbystanderboston says:

    goFigure,

    Having spent the last 30 yrs of my life in higher education and working in higher education (University). I can tell you that the majority (north of 90%) of girls/women here are not looking for an MRS degree. If you even suggest they due so, they will blanch at the thought.

    Really? Did you ask them? The thought that they are blanching at (that they have been thinking for a lot longer than the last 30 years of your life), is the thought that they would ever marry someone who does not fulfill their hypergamy. That is paramount, #1. If there aren’t any choices that give them what they feel they are entitled, then, NO, of COURSE they weren’t working on their MRS degree. They were working on their career! What, you expect them to be honest with you and tell you that they failed? That is never going to happen.

    It’s all bullshit, all of it. The majority of majors offered at University in the Information Age are bull shit degrees pursued by bullshit people who are bullshitting themselves. And then they graduate and employers know that they bullshitted their way through school so now they want to elect bullshit politicians who will relieve them of all their student loan debt that they wish was bullshit. And for tax payers and those of us who paid for all our tuition, the thought that we have to make them whole on their loans is all bullshit to us. But if the young lady had earned that bullshit degree and she tells you that she really wanted that education “for her CAREER” I call bullshit…..

    …and so should you.

  125. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    The women with useless degrees unrealistically expect to get good paying jobs in .gov or Corporate America.

    Well, sure, because it worked so well for Carrie Bradshaw…

  126. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    I call BS. You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

  127. innocentbystanderboston says:

    feministhater,

    If so, I raise you Miley Cyrus, who was going to marry that hunky actor whatshisname… and yet didn’t, even though he met all the criteria you just listed. What happened?!

    What happened is I called your bet. You lost.

    Hannah Montana (fulfilling her hypergamy) DID marry that hunky actor, Thor’s baby brother (who looks just like Chris) Liam Hemsworth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Hemsworth

  128. feministhater says:

    But she would have if all she had to choose was any of the single Christian men on this forum.

    I’m sorry I don’t meet the absurdly high standards modern women have, IBB, I really am. Hahaha!

    Are you finally willing to wholly admit that MGTOW is right and proper for the majority of men? All of it. Absolutely and completely. If you truly believe what you typed above than that is all a man can do.

    You’ve simply stated that he simply isn’t good enough and never will be. If that’s the case, logic dictates that he focus his life elsewhere. Women can be their own husbands now, they can fuck around, be happy and never get married. Having men continue trying to meet these absurd standards is cruel and a complete and utter waste of time.

    It’s all bullshit, all of it. The majority of majors offered at University in the Information Age are bull shit degrees pursued by bullshit people who are bullshitting themselves. And then they graduate and employers know that they bullshitted their way through school so now they want to elect bullshit politicians who will relieve them of all their student loan debt that they wish was bullshit. And for tax payers and those of us who paid for all our tuition, the thought that we have to make them whole on their loans is all bullshit to us. But if the young lady had earned that bullshit degree and she tells you that she really wanted that education “for her CAREER” I call bullshit…..

    Sure, it’s all bullshit. Since the first feminist to the last. It is and was all bullshit. Men are smarter, stronger and better at building, creating and inventing than women. Men build, women destroy. Therefore, having even one woman in university is a complete waste of time and resources but then again, they want to marry the very, very best men which means they need to go waste our resources and time to do so, is that right? Is that the best method those ‘smart’ women have to find a husband? Really? Destroying all that good will and sacrifice of the past to waste resources on such a search?

    Thanks IBB..

  129. Damn Crackers says:

    @innocentbystanderboston – “I would agree with you Novaseeker that women who are studying STEM at university are NOT working on their MRS degrees. But for the majority of all the other under-graduate majors that are preferred by women? Meh. Art History major sounds awful MRS-y to me.”

    I teach at a small, Eastern liberal arts college. I believe no female student I’ve ever had of a non-STEM major, especially art history, has ever married any of their assorted “boyfriends.”

  130. feministhater says:

    Hannah Montana (fulfilling her hypergamy) DID marry that hunky actor, Thor’s baby brother (who looks just like Chris) Liam Hemsworth.

    Shows you how much attention I pay to the lives of the rich and famous. Last I heard they called it off.

  131. JRob says:

    The art history degree holder-ettes have figured out how to go into federal/state civil “service” jobs via AA/title IX.

    The sex safari they embark upon is exponentially more extreme and overt when there’s less than nothing to do. Dudes with game absolutely run these women through. The top 20% of them.

    Find a VA hospital after hours and poke your head into an empty exam room or supply closet.

  132. Damn Crackers says:

    I mean to include “girlfriends” as well.

  133. feministhater says:

    All 18 year women would be married tomorrow. If only they could all magically just find the absolute best of men, who happen to already be staggeringly wealthy, good looking and high status.

    If only men would step up and be perfect. Then all would be well.

  134. innocentbystanderboston says:

    feministhater,

    IBB, you do know the linking to an old women discussing what she did at university because the women these days don’t do so anymore is actually proof that they don’t go to get a Mrs degree?

    You missed Susan Patton’s point.

    She is saying (in 2013) that the Princeton girls need to settle for whatever Princeton man picks them! That is not what is happening because of their hypergamy. They want MORE than the Princeton men who are pursuing them can offer them (or none at all.) And Susan is saying it is likely that they will never-again have as many options and it would be best if they took better advantage of that 4 year window.

    The Princeton girls are there working on the MRS degree. But because of their already elevated status (in their minds) they are expecting Mr Right to be even MORE elevated. That is not likely to happen. They are already “at the top” and the best the can do is “equal” to what they have at Princeton and she is telling them to set hypergamy aside for their own sake.

    Lets put it another way fh, any of those young Princeton men that are not good enough for the Princeton women, they could get in their cars, drive a few miles down the road to Rutgers and pick the random co-ed that they want and hypergamy would give that Rutgers girl to them. There are a lot of women working on that MRS at pretty much every school.

  135. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    “The one” is a Romantic concept that can be traced to the Cult of Courtly love.

    It goes a lot further back than that, at least as far back as Greek mythology.

    https://theconversation.com/what-plato-can-teach-you-about-finding-a-soulmate-72715

    In the beginning, humans were androgynous. So says Aristophanes in his fantastical account of the origins of love in Plato’s Symposium.

    Not only did early humans have both sets of sexual organs, Aristophanes reports, but they were outfitted with two faces, four hands, and four legs. These monstrosities were very fast – moving by way of cartwheels – and they were also quite powerful. So powerful, in fact, that the gods were nervous for their dominion.

    Wanting to weaken the humans, Zeus, Greek king of Gods, decided to cut each in two, and commanded his son Apollo “to turn its face…towards the wound so that each person would see that he’d been cut and keep better order.” If, however, the humans continued to pose a threat, Zeus promised to cut them again – “and they’ll have to make their way on one leg, hopping!”

    The severed humans were a miserable lot, Aristophanes says.

    “[Each] one longed for its other half, and so they would throw their arms about each other, weaving themselves together, wanting to grow together.”

    That is the origin of the concept of “soulmates”, or “the one”.

  136. feministhater says:

    You missed Susan Patton’s point.

    I really don’t give a crap what her point was. The problem is that women are not at university to get a MRS degree. Not anymore. They would be marrying their classmates if they were. Now they want more than that and will not accept less, thus the degree they are getting is another status symbol that increases their entitlement and expectations.

    They’re not listening to Susan because they are not their to find a man to marry.

  137. Oscar says:

    Man, that’s my worst html fail yet!

  138. feministhater says:

    Lets put it another way fh, any of those young Princeton men that are not good enough for the Princeton women, they could get in their cars, drive a few miles down the road to Rutgers and pick the random co-ed that they want and hypergamy would give that Rutgers girl to them. There are a lot of women working on that MRS at pretty much every school.

    Are there lots of college girls marrying men in better universities whilst they are young?

  139. 7817 says:

    MRS degree?

    DICK degree.

    This is part of the problem, I guess, some tradcons are so sheltered they don’t get what’s really going on.

  140. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Oscar
    I gotta laugh.
    That’s even better than my idea, it means churches are really just peddling Greek myths, aka paganism. They should declare theological Chapter 11 and close.

  141. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    There are a lot of women working on that MRS at pretty much every school.

    What’s the weather like back there in 1988?

  142. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    Here is are article by fivethirtyeight (a left leaning political/sports page that makes predictions based of of statistics) written in 2015.
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/when-will-everyone-i-know-be-married/
    Look at the graph for women. About 10% of them will marry before age 22 (college graduation age). This includes women in college and those that don’t go to college.

    So there is a small percentage of women working on there MRS degree (less than 10%). Far to few of them for the number of men that would like to marry them (~30-40% is my guess).

    The problem you seem to be having with everyone else here is this “There are a lot of women working on that MRS at pretty much every school.” You need to come to grips with the fact that there are not a lot of them. There is a small fraction of them.

  143. Oscar says:

    @ AR

    Agreed.

  144. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    The problem is that women are not at university to get a MRS degree. Not anymore. They would be marrying their classmates if they were. Now they want more than that and will not accept less, thus the degree they are getting is another status symbol that increases their entitlement and expectations.

    Way earlier in this thread I said one of the four main reasons why the age for a woman’s first marriage is going up and up, is that they aren’t being asked. Women do not do the asking, men do. Women are going to university to get an MRS degree and they aren’t being asked. They can get fucked (the young men ask for that all the time), women just can’t get what they really want, a diamond.

    Okay so lets be pure red pill and drill down into the data a bit more. I say women are going to university largely to get their MRS degree. Where is that happening (successfully?) Utah.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2017/07/17/examining-variations-in-marriage-rates-across-colleges/

    In 2014, BYU-Idaho has the highest rate of married college students in the entire country, 54%. That is followed very closely by BYU-Provo at 52%. Utah State is 50% of all their students are married. Southern Utah University, 48% of all their students are married.

    Location. Location. Location. And the locations here are LDS. And the LDS sure like to get married, and married younger.

    Drilling down deeper into the MRS degree data, where do Christian girls go to work on their MRS degree if they are not LDS? The South. Universities in the South have much higher rates of married students than their counterparts in the Northeast or West Coast. Ironically, the LOWEST rates of married students are also universities in the South, the predominantly black universities. At Howard and Southern, virtually none of the students are married.

    Now we can all argue back and forth until we are blue in the face, but the data is the data.

  145. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    Way earlier in this thread I said one of the four main reasons why the age for a woman’s first marriage is going up and up, is that they aren’t being asked.

    What evidence supports this claim?

    Now we can all argue back and forth until we are blue in the face, but the data is the data.

    Irony.

  146. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    If a medical doctor asked Wendy Griffith to marry her when she was 20, she would have said yes. So would Allyson Rowe.

    Not if that medical doctor was 5’8″.

  147. goFigure says:

    That data does not support the Idea that “they are not getting asked”.

    It does support that certain groups have different results than other groups.

  148. Burner Prime says:

    “You are the prize…”

    Where have we heard that before?

    They wouldn’t be saying that if there weren’t a massive number of suitors to choose from.

  149. innocentbystanderboston says:

    AR,

    It’s not that I am intentionally ignoring your posts that you direct towards me, it is instead that I can’t tell when you are being serious or when you are being a smug asshole. Half the time you accuse me of being my wife posting. You need to stop doing that. But you kept it up, so I kind of just tuned you out. But I’ll try one more time in the hopes that you are being sincere.

    How do I know that Wendy and Allyson would have been married younger if they had been asked by a medical doctor? Because I know women. I know what women want and I know when they are lying to me. Those youtubes from Allyson were largely lies an half-truths. Marriage may not offer men anything anymore, but it still offers Christian women a tremendous amount. They still want to be married. I’d argue that they aren’t being asked because (as fh will tell all of us over and over) MGTOW is the way men are increasingly heading.

    How many marriages have you personally been to in the last 5 years? Of those, how brides were under 25?

    Just two. They were both last year. One the bride was 21. The other, the bride was 26. Both of the brides were my nieces (nieces by marriage only.)

  150. Novaseeker says:

    Well, Dalrock, there it is — one of the main premises of this blog shot down in flames, eh? The pastors you critique are right! The reason why women aren’t married until much later is because the men aren’t asking them. If they were asking them, most of these women would be married at 23, whether Christian or not. Elementary, it would appear, eh?

  151. feministhater says:

    So now men are not willing to ask women to get married? I wonder why this could be? Lol!

    IBB, that is fucking hilarious! I am happy that these men are not asking them. I wish you were right, it would mean men are on a marriage strike.

    Those are the highest rates in all of American, all of them in a red state, most of those universities affiliated with Churches so that would explain their higher rates.

    Still, the rest of American universities are 43% or less and I’m guessing it will decline as more time goes on.

    So sure. Location, location, location, just become a Morman or Amish and you’ll get married at a younger age.

  152. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    FrankK: The women with useless degrees unrealistically expect to get good paying jobs in .gov or Corporate America.

    Actually, women who earn Art History degrees expect to work in a museum. A prestigious museum. In a major city, like New York or London. Where they will be surrounded by rich, famous, handsome, bad boy artists.

    Women who earn an English degree expect to work in publishing. In New York or London. Surrounded by rich, famous, handsome, bad boy novelists.

    In both cases, the job will entail attending lots of wine & cheese receptions, doing lunch with the girls at the office, and paid-for travel to conferences in exotic foreign cities.

  153. innocentbystanderboston says:

    goFigure,

    That data does not support the Idea that “they are not getting asked”.

    It does support that certain groups have different results than other groups.

    Agreed. But we can’t prove a “negative.” There is no data available that lists how many times college girls are proposed to (with diamonds) and say NO. You and I (none of us) will ever have that data.

    The only data we have is data showing where the college girls ARE getting married. And going by the Brookings Institute, young LDS men and young Southern men still do a whole lot of “asking” since its those women who are getting married at college.

  154. Frank K says:

    Not if that medical doctor was 5’8″.

    Orthopedic Surgeons have an uncanny knack for looking taller than they really are. Might have something to do with their bank balances.

  155. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    BTW, that’s how life in the art world, and the world of publishing, is portrayed in film. Sexy young people hooking up in glamorous locales.

    I think that’s basically what Sex and the City was all about, though I’ve never seen that show.

  156. Anon says:

    How do I know that Wendy and Allyson would have been married younger if they had been asked by a medical doctor? Because I know women. I know what women want and I know when they are lying to me.

    It seems that Mrs. IBB is posting under her husband’s handle again.

    In reality, extremely few women have any true understanding of how women think, and cannot predict their own actions in the slightest.

  157. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    The only data we have is data showing where the college girls ARE getting married. And going by the Brookings Institute, young LDS men and young Southern men still do a whole lot of “asking”.

    It does not say anything about young men asking. It could easily be interpreted as were young women are still held somewhat accountable.

  158. feministhater says:

    I’d argue that they aren’t being asked because (as fh will tell all of us over and over) MGTOW is the way men are increasingly heading.

    Not my fault. Society, Church and women decided to cut men off at the knees and then let their hypergamy run wild. Why pretend that suddenly women are really interested in getting married at a young age? All the legal laws, the marriage laws, the divorce laws and the number of divorces provides a perfectly valid reason for men to go MGTOW and thus if women truly wanted to get married at a young age and for the right reasons, they would be MGTOWs greatest allies, trying to push back against the worst forms of abuse of marriage and men.

    Instead their rule of thumb is to shame MGTOW and shame men in general for not taking on bad risks. They promote delaying marriage and destroy the marriage institution and fuck around.

    Hey man, I just see what goes on, I cannot read a woman’s mind. If they are willing to lie and bullshit instead of being honest, then it really is on them. Why would men ask them to marry them when men have been told they don’t want or need it?

    Hey IBB, why don’t you tell women to tell the truth instead? That would be really helpful.

  159. Frank K says:

    In both cases, the job will entail attending lots of wine & cheese receptions, doing lunch with the girls at the office, and paid-for travel to conferences in exotic foreign cities.

    Those are no doubt their aspirational jobs/careers; just like how I wanted to be an Astronaut when I was a kid. But many do try to get some sort of bureaucratic gig with the government, a non profit or Corporate America. The lucky ones get those jobs, the others take your order at some chain restaurant or fold shirts at Old Navy.

  160. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    So now men are not willing to ask women to get married? I wonder why this could be? Lol!

    I don’t think you are disagreeing with me. It appears that you are agreeing with me.

    We all know why this is, marriage doesn’t offer men anything anymore. I’d say that is the main reason why Christian women are (generally speaking) getting fewer proposals (if any.) And there are damn good MGTOW reasons why they SHOULDN’T be asked! I don’t dispute any of this.

    The sucky thing is, none of us can prove a “negative.” There is no way that I, Dalrock, Novaseeker, or any of us could provide any meaningful data points proving (conclusively) that women are getting married later and later in life because they aren’t being asked as much as they once were. So, it all comes down to faith and what you believe.

  161. Frank K says:

    Way earlier in this thread I said one of the four main reasons why the age for a woman’s first marriage is going up and up, is that they aren’t being asked.

    It’s kind of hard for them to get asked when they won’t give the time of day to the type of men who would ask them.

  162. Oscar says:

    @ Frank K

    Orthopedic Surgeons have an uncanny knack for looking taller than they really are. Might have something to do with their bank balances.

    True, but that brings us back to a problem Dalrock has highlighted many times over the years. We can’t all be orthopedic surgeons, can we? Young women, having been thoroughly indoctrinated in “you go girl”, and “grrrrrl power” their entire lives all believe they “deserve” the orthopedic surgeon.

    And he has to be a great cook.
    And he has to have lots of time for dates and exotic vacations.
    And he has to be romantic.
    And he has to be a division 1 athlete.
    And… and… and…

    If he meets all her unrealistic qualifications, then she’ll grace him with with her hand in marriage. But only after sampling her share of penises.

  163. Frank K says:

    Location. Location. Location. And the locations here are LDS. And the LDS sure like to get married, and married younger.

    I believe that their leadership hammers that into them. While the LDS are the ultimate form of heretics (they have their own Holy Writ) they do seem to still understand the importance of early family formation.

  164. Frank K says:

    True, but that brings us back to a problem Dalrock has highlighted many times over the years. We can’t all be orthopedic surgeons, can we?

    Agreed. Was just making the point that some factor$ can make up for some shortcomings.

  165. theShield220 says:

    Why is this THOT trying to sound like she is black?

  166. innocentbystanderboston says:

    fh,

    Not my fault.

    I don’t blame you. I don’t blame men at all.

    Society, Church and women decided to cut men off at the knees and then let their hypergamy run wild. Why pretend that suddenly women are really interested in getting married at a young age? All the legal laws, the marriage laws, the divorce laws and the number of divorces provides a perfectly valid reason for men to go MGTOW and thus if women truly wanted to get married at a young age and for the right reasons, they would be MGTOWs greatest allies, trying to push back against the worst forms of abuse of marriage and men.

    I don’t blame MGTOWs for this. This is not about assigning blame. This is instead about explaining WHY.

  167. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    Three days ago Dalrock posted this article: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2019/04/29/men-stopped-reverencing-women/

    Where he references a article written by a young women; wherein the girl refers to a ‘long term male buddy’, who is just magically sharing some of is innermost concerns and fears with this girl. Are you suggesting that the girl writing this article could not get a marriage proposal from this ‘male buddy’ within weeks? That proposal is not coming because the girl does not want it.

  168. feministhater says:

    I don’t think you are disagreeing with me. It appears that you are agreeing with me.

    Certainly not. I just got a big chuckle from that. It’s just that I don’t believe women are in college, getting degrees in order to get married. To me, that’s an inordinate amount of waste that itself sets them all up for failure.

    How many college spaces are there? If sixty percent go to women, or even more in some cases, how many men are there for these women to marry? It’s a cluster fuck of epic proportions, leading me to laughing my ass off at their expense.

    It’s not hard for women to get married but they make it infinitely worse by getting a college degree, not just because it balloons their entitlement but because it also removes their supposed husbands from college and increases expenditure with no more purpose than to find a mate. There are far better ways to achieve their goal than to waste time and money at university.

  169. BillyS says:

    Polygamy is constitutional to ensure no woman is left behind.

    I doubt this accomplishes the claimed goal. Ugly women will still have trouble, especially really ugly ones. The great men will just take more of the good women, leaving the dregs for others.

  170. innocentbystanderboston says:

    goFigure,

    Where he references a article written by a young women; wherein the girl refers to a ‘long term male buddy’, who is just magically sharing some of is innermost concerns and fears with this girl. Are you suggesting that the girl writing this article could not get a marriage proposal from this ‘male buddy’ within weeks? That proposal is not coming because the girl does not want it.

    Of COURSE that proposal is not coming because the girl does not want it. He is her ‘long term male buddy’ and he already knows that is as far as it will ever go. So there will be no proposal. He’s not an idiot. He’s just a beta-orbiter. Best thing he could do is stop orbiting her.

    And the men that she would LOVE to get a proposal from, those wont be coming either because those men can’t be bothered. Free love is getting him too many opportunities to get laid. Why should he settle down and risk everything he has to offer?

  171. goFigure says:

    Everyone here needs to learn what polygamy means. It means multiple spouses for both men and women.

    The word that means one man with multiple women is polygyny.

  172. Nick Mgtow says:

    feeriker says: ”
    […] Helen Holmes just publicly admitted, to the entire literate world, and in irrevocable digital form, that women are weak, foolish, immature, impecunious, and irresponsible. In other words, unfit to live as independent adults.”

    Noooo, no way. It’s not that she admitted that, or can’t live within her means. No, it’s because her career stalled!

  173. Opus says:

    Spacetraveller and I are really quite shocked by you colonials. Bikinis for Jesus both pre and post wall. Is not however Miss Rowe a beauty queen for Jesus just a version of Jongleur de Notre Dame – that is to say doing for Jesus what one is good at no matter how tacky – hence presumably also Pole Dancing for Jesus. Not my thing but whatever floats the boat that you Rowe.

  174. @Dalrock
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/christian-women-cant-find-good-men-to-marry-there-just-arent-any

    Christian men aren’t “worldly wise” enough.

    I can talk to any young woman in my social circle and they will, one and all, say the same thing: there just aren’t any men. What we mean by this is there is a frightening scarcity of men aged 25-35 who are church-going, single and worldly-wise.

  175. Continued from previous….

    I am now beginning to face the possibility that I may never marry. It makes me squirm with discomfort and anxiety even to admit this, but I have to be realistic. On a personal level, my faith teaches me that if I don’t ever marry, it’s possibly because that is God’s will for me. I may not like it, it may threaten to fill me with dread and despair, but that’s probably how I would have felt if someone had told me 10 years ago that I would still be single now.

    And while I have experienced some real suffering in my 32 years, I know my life is valuable and meaningful and worth living, despite not turning out the way I imagined.

    Moreover, I believe that if God wills for me to remain single, then that is what will bring me the most fulfilment and happiness in life.

    I’ll be honest, this feels more true in my head than in my heart right now. I am still mid-struggle when it comes to acceptance, because deep down I don’t want to accept that this long-cherished dream of mine may never come true.

    It feels as though accepting the possibility will shackle me to the inevitability.

    But I also know, from wisdom and experience, that this isn’t true, that opening myself up to God’s will – whatever that is – will actually set me free. It may be difficult and painful, but only in the short term. I also recognise there’s an important difference between being alone and being lonely.

  176. 32 years old.
    For 14 years she has been either rejecting men outright or putting them on ice (for later?).
    And now the epiphany phase is just too much.

  177. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    Well, Dalrock, there it is — one of the main premises of this blog shot down in flames, eh? The pastors you critique are right! The reason why women aren’t married until much later is because the men aren’t asking them. If they were asking them, most of these women would be married at 23, whether Christian or not. Elementary, it would appear, eh?

    Check and mate. I had a good run though.

  178. Anonymous Reader says:

    The only reason this 24 year old isn’t married is that her boyfriend hasn’t asked her, I am sure.
    I am so sure!
    http://thesmokinggun.com/buster/disorderly-conduct/nothing-bundt-749703

  179. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    Check and mate. I had a good run though.

    $u$an Wal$h tried to tell you, but noooo….

  180. Anon says:

    The reason why women aren’t married until much later is because the men aren’t asking them. If they were asking them, most of these women would be married at 23,

    Heh. This is surely why the hottest women tend to be the ones most likely to be 35 and unmarried. They are being asked less often than average-looking women are.

  181. Novaseeker says:

    I would agree with you Novaseeker that women who are studying STEM at university are NOT working on their MRS degrees. But for the majority of all the other under-graduate majors that are preferred by women? Meh. Art History major sounds awful MRS-y to me.

    Eh, no.

    Just go get an job in marketing or sales or HR or accounting or something like that. All the areas in corporate America that are at least majority female and in many cases overwhelmingly so. And then maybe go to business school. Or maybe go to law school directly from college, etc.

    Most women are NOT working MRS degrees, that is not the motivation.

    Anyway, I think you’ve admitted in the thread here that this is not something that any of us can prove or disprove.

    Your opinion is that women want to get married young but it isn’t happening because there aren’t hypergamously satisfying men for them at that age (and those men have to be sky high because the woman’s value is sky high at that age), but that they marry later on when they shift their expectations and settle for men that they would have turned down when they were 23.

    I (and it seems the rest of us) have the opinion that women want to get their education and career lined up as a safety net before they start thinking of a spouse unless they are in a certain subculture (like LDS Utah), and that this is the driver of later marriage as women travel, ride the carousel and “find themselves” before “settling down” in the later 20s and early 30s (they hope).

    Neither of us can prove which is the case, because we don’t have data that dives into motivations, and if we did that data would be suspect. So we have an unresolvable disagreement it seems to me.

  182. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB
    The reason why women aren’t married until much later is because the men aren’t asking them. If they were asking them, most of these women would be married at 23,

    The IBB account has posted enough text in the last couple of comment threads for pattern-recognizer analysis. But these sentences provide plenty of evidence.

    1. Denial of women’s agency, also known as “It’s not women’s fault!”
    2. Pushing all responsibility onto men while removing all responsibility from women.

    These combine to show a strong preference for women.

    3. Implied 80/20 Pareto distribution of men.

    Rewritten:
    The reason why most women aren’t married until much later is because the attractive men aren’t asking them. If they were asking them, most of these women would be married at 23,

    Of course, as Novaseeker and others have demonstrated, this simply doesn’t apply in the current year. It was probably true 25 years ago, but it is not now.

    The obvious ignorance of current sexual market and marriage market points to someone over 50, possibly well over 60. The tone of exasperation with “those men who won’t marry women” suggests someone with an unmarried daughter, possibly over 30.

    Nothing new in this analysis, of course, we just haven’t seen it displayed so obviously for a few years.

  183. Frank K says:

    What we mean by this is there is a frightening scarcity of men aged 25-35 who are church-going, single and worldly-wise.

    Sounds like they want a tamed/domesticated bad boy.

    Yeah, not too many of those floating around.

  184. CSI says:

    frightening scarcity of men aged 25-35 who are church-going, single and worldly-wise

    What does “worldly-wise” mean? What a curious phrase. She means charming men who can amuse them. Men who have had previous girlfriends. Men with education and careers. And despite having had many opportunities to marry by 25 or 30, have resisted the temptation to do so.

    And one of the reasons girls go to college is because they think it will give her access to a pool of higher status men when she decides to marry at some point in the future. Social status is strongly tied to educational achievement in our culture. Women are much more focused on social status than men.

  185. Ray6777 says:

    “Worldly-wise” is Game. Young men in church don’t have it and there certainly isn’t anyone in church that will teach it to them. The pastors are telling young men to follow the script that worked in 1950.

  186. Luke says:

    A woman who says that she couldn’t get married at 23, but could at 35, far past her peak MMV, reminds me of this…
    Imagine a person who said that he couldn’t find one remotely suitable house to buy when he had a half million dollars cash with which to buy it (and wanted the best possible house), but once he irretrievably gave 300K of it to some crooked charity (so only had 200K left), he had no problem. Obviously, that 500K wasn’t going to get him a mansion in Beverly Hills, any more than the 200K did later. So, Occam’s Razor indicates he started looking for a house that 200K could buy. He almost certainly still pines for one of the houses that even 500K couldn’t get him, and is of course guilty of serious misjudgement for not getting a 500K-value house when he had 500K.

    Saving only losing a cleft palate and 100 pounds of fat, that’s the situation of a woman who claims she couldn’t marry at 23, but then could and did at 35. (Lying sack of…)

  187. Anon says:

    An attractive woman who fails to land a husband in her youth (and stay married to him and have children) is analogous to a man who inherits $10M and squanders it.

  188. BillyS says:

    if you have been married long enough, you know that there are time when you wake up, turn over and look at the other person and have a revulsion of hate and resentment.

    I didn’t see that Scott, even in the later days of my marriage. My obliviousness to some things probably impacted that. I don’t even have it as much as I should now, based on all that has happened. (Well, no rolling over and seeing anyone, but some anger remains, but not intense hostility.)

    DeepThought,

    I would expect men and women marrying in their 50’s to have spectacular rates of successful marriage.

    You failed to factor in the ability for many women to make a go of it on their own with great support from others, taking lots of money from their husband and even ongoing court-ordered support. That undermines the steadiness that should be present.

    Otto,

    Those lips after are horrid.

  189. BillyS says:

    IBB,

    A woman can let a man know she is interested in him. She is not completely helpless in that area. The issue is that the ones she wants to ask her to marry are not the ones that want to marry her in many cases, though it can also be a case of her not making any indication she is interested, expecting him to “just know”.

  190. OKRickety says:

    Re. the woman writer of the article linked by constrainedlocus:

    The web page Marriage and divorce statistics Australia provides these facts:

    – The average age for getting married has increased from 21 years of age in 1976 to 29 years for women in 2016 and 23 years of age in 1976 to 32 years in 2016 for men.    I think that’s about 2 years older for the women than in the USA.

    – The number of couples living together has increased from 16% of couples in 1976 to 80.8% in 2016.    A huge increase but I’m not exactly sure what this means. Cohabiting is now 80% of all couples living together?

    – 50% of the elderly population reported that religion played an important role in their lives, while only 25% of 15-29 year olds responded the same.    Since the woman was Roman Catholic, it seems that finding another Roman Catholic was important to her. It looks like it’s getting harder to find one.

    Since Aussies are getting married later (and about 80% cohabit before marriage) and religion is becoming less important, it doesn’t surprise me that there is a shortage of potential husbands for her. But it would probably be a good bet that she’s not aware of these numbers, or, if she is, she hasn’t made the logical deductions.

  191. Luke says:

    innocentbystanderboston says:
    May 2, 2019 at 2:29 pm

    “Stephen Baldwin’s daughter Hailey got married at age 21 (well maybe 22.) Young. Physically, she is a perfect 10. And she didn’t squander even a minute of her youth and fertility. You know who got it all? Husband Justin Beiber. Had it been ANYONE ELSE who asked Hailey Baldwin to marry him when she was 21, forget it. Beiber fulfills the hypergamy requirement that Hailey had in her mind. She didn’t wait.

    Uh, yeah, she did wait.
    A woman’s physical (looks, odds of healthy babies, maximum potential # of babies) situation peaks years earlier, like at least 4. Plenty of U.S. women by the age of 22 have been sexually active for 5+ years. She just LOOKS like she didn’t wait, given how much closer she was to her peak than the usual post-Wall career skanks wait.

  192. Luke says:

    Innocentbystanderboston says:
    May 2, 2019 at 1:31 pm
    Nova,

    “To manufacture a “consumer good”, you need repetitive labor that is well formed. When our economy was predicated mostly on the manufacture of consumer goods, it was then possible (even likely) that you could marry young and have a “middle class” lifestyle. You can do “well formed work” at age 18 as well as you can do it at age 48. Thus, unions were all-powerful and very numerous in 1950 when the United States manufactured everything for the entire world still recovering and rebuilding from World War II. The United States had 50% of the entire earth’s GDP in 1950. Christianity in the United States just went along for the “middle class” ride for that happy, nuclear family, when most married young and you were the one who got to break your wife’s hymen. Dad knew that his daughter (in 1950) if she (at age 20) married a would-be union man (also age 20), she’d have that middle class life.

    That is all gone.

    Now, thanks to globalism (and the “race to the bottom” on wages) China makes all the “consumer goods” for the entire world. And why? Because #1) they work the cheapest in the world”

    Actually, a number of countries (i.e., Vietnam) now have cheaper labor than does China. China, among other reasons such as wealth inflating labor costs, has a major demographic crunch starting due to the years they had the “One Child” policy, Why else do you think that they are installing tons of industrial robots so fast?

  193. Nova,

    Your opinion is that women want to get married young but it isn’t happening because there aren’t hypergamously satisfying men for them at that age (and those men have to be sky high because the woman’s value is sky high at that age), but that they marry later on when they shift their expectations and settle for men that they would have turned down when they were 23.

    Yes I’d say that is true. A very Christian 22 year old Hailey Baldwin did marry a 24 year old Justin Beiber under these precise circumstances. He asked her to marry him and because Beiber’s SMV was through the roof, he is now married to a super model

    I (and it seems the rest of us) have the opinion that women want to get their education and career lined up as a safety net before they start thinking of a spouse unless they are in a certain subculture (like LDS Utah), and that this is the driver of later marriage as women travel, ride the carousel and “find themselves” before “settling down” in the later 20s and early 30s (they hope).

    I don’t think its an either-or. I would say they would have married at 22 or 23 (or even younger) provided she (and her husband, a husband with very high SMV) are both in college together.

    Neither of us can prove which is the case, because we don’t have data that dives into motivations, and if we did that data would be suspect. So we have an unresolvable disagreement it seems to me.

    Fair enough.

    Neither one of us can prove which is more “red pill” but your analysis of both positions is a very fair analysis.

  194. Lost Patrol says:

    32 years old.
    For 14 years she has been either rejecting men outright or putting them on ice (for later?).
    And now the epiphany phase is just too much.

    First of all, the world is in bad shape and women are hardest hit, so I’m glad she got that in there early in the article.

    Secondly, here is that mystery again. What was going on during the critical 14 years? What did she do in her free time? She doesn’t say. Cute girl. We are left to imagine that no boring loyal dudes tried to snarf her up. None at all. Hard to imagine. And from the sound of it, no boring loyal dudes need apply now either.

    “Anna Hitchings is a Sydney freelance writer.” (photo incl.)

    https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/author/anna-hitchings/

  195. feeriker says:

    Sorry to break the bad news, but the 1970’s are over. Have been for almost 40 years.
    PS: Reagan’s still dead, too.

    I still think that we’re somewhat fortunate to have our own in-house example to remind us that tradcons are ALWAYS 30-plus years behind the times.

  196. feeriker says:

    How many marriages have you personally been to in the last 5 years? Of those, how brides were under 25?

    If we’re talking about “Christian” marriages, in church, in the USSA, even one within a given five-year window would constitute an astronomical number. Odds of either the bride or groom being 25 or younger? Just about ZE-RO.

  197. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Lost Patrol

    What was going on during the critical 14 years? What did she do in her free time?

    “Collecting experiences” is a phrase I’ve heard from 30-something women…

  198. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    The only reason this 24 year old isn’t married is that her boyfriend hasn’t asked her, I am sure.

    I can’t say that I blame him.

  199. Opus says:

    This is the funniest thread ever at this blog. Would Mrs IBB (I am coming round to Anon’s view as to multiple users of the moniker) similarly suggest that the only reason single men are not and on a regular basis sleeping with super-models is because they failed to ask. We know however that even with experienced PUAs who do not restrict their efforts merely to Supermodels that the strike rate as between approach and PinV is not much better than two per cent. How exactly would IBB suggest that PUAs might improve their strike rate?

    From my observation most marriages are contracted because and in no particular order: 1. the woman makes clear that should a marriage not take place pussy will be withdrawn/ will be withheld until marriage 2. The woman is now pregnant. 3. For Green card reasons the only way to continue the relationship is to marry. Merely asking a woman tends (and I speak from experience – just the once) – to result in rejection.

    All is not necessarily lost: I once worked with a woman who would only have been about twenty two at the time who had had a boyfriend – a bit like Biff in Back to the Future – whom she had been dating forever. That came to an end and she was asked out by another much more presentable individual. Reader she agreed to marry him after the second date. As she explained to me. “I knew he was going to ask me”. The bad news is that was fifty years ago.

  200. Hmm says:

    I watched Rowe’s videos through, and was surprised that I agreed with much of what she said. In fact, her advice in some ways parallels the way we counsel single men:

    1. If you are not in a relationship, spend that time focusing on God and conforming yourself to His image.
    2. Don’t be desperate.
    3. Wait for a person that meets the Biblical requirements for a mate. This is the female equivalent of a man searching for such a person.

    But the dark side:

    1. It’s easy to confuse your desires with God’s will. Even if Rowe herself has her own priorities in order, her counsel is easy to misunderstood. She said her desires had changed over time as she grew closer to God. This probably means her list got longer rather than shorter. Most women who hear this will think that God has baptized their highly non-Biblical lists.
    2. She believes in “the one” – that God will bring that perfect person to her, and that she will recognize him. But it’s almost never an instant bolt from the blue – recognizing the quality of a potential mate takes time, which most modern women don’t allow. Also, there’s not just one that will do. The only time to say this person is “the one” is after you are married.
    3. The whole “you are a prize” theology is a great temptation to women to not work on themselves, but expect a man who will take them as they are. This may be true for Rowe, who is a beauty contest winner, even into her thirties. She has probably had dozens or hundreds of men who have laid themselves at her feet. But it’s much less true for other women, I expect. Besides, in at least two instances in Scripture (Adam and Isaac), the woman was brought to the man rather than the reverse.
    4. She left out Paul’s counsel to use that time of singleness as freedom to serve God more. One is left with the impression that she simply sits, looking pretty, and waits for the guy.

    It’s possible to be so focused on God that we forget that he gave us physical bodies and lives in this world that we are called to keep in order.

  201. >What was going on during the critical 14 years?

    The guy equivalent would be hooning and thrashing the top 20% of sports cars. Only the most glamorous and exciting cars will do. The boring sensible practical sedans, CUVs and minivans? Those are for loooooosers. Now he’s at the point where he’s blown through his inheritance in his youth, didn’t bother having any practical skills to be able to really afford the cars he was thrashing and he’s grudgingly settling for what he can now afford. Not because he wants to, but because he has to. And he’s a manchild, so he’s blaming everyone but himself for his choices in life too. Full of bitterness and resentment.

    When you really do get a grip on how the world really works, especially for most women, it really is quite sad. I’d rather start out with nothing and end with something – women start out with everything and end up with almost nothing.

  202. feeriker says:

    One is left with the impression that she simply sits, looking pretty, and waits for the guy.

    That’s exactly what she (and nearly every other woman in her situation) is doing. The idea that she actually has to “show that she has some skin in the game,” get up off her rump, and put some effort into finding and locking down the man she wants to marry is something she, as a modern EAP, finds patently offensive. Daughters of the King shouldn’t ever have to lift a finger or put anyone or anything ahead of themselves or their wants. Perish the thought!

  203. Novaseeker says:

    Would Mrs IBB (I am coming round to Anon’s view as to multiple users of the moniker) similarly suggest that the only reason single men are not and on a regular basis sleeping with super-models is because they failed to ask.

    I think what IBB is saying is that the men who are asking are not the ones who qualify hypergamously, and that the ones who qualify hypergamously are not asking. In other words, the idea is that an attractive young woman of say 23 (let’s say HB7+ age 23, Christian) is not going to accept a proposal from a “peer” — her value is higher than that, it is stratospherically high. So she will accept an offer from a rock star or movie star or pro athlete or maybe a taller, hunkier neurosurgeon who skydives on the weekends, but otherwise the men who actually ask her at that age are below her hypergamy threshold at that age, if any of them do ask her, and the athletes/stars/neuros are limited in number. So the girls wait until they are older and their SMV lowers, and they adjust their expectations, and then they marry some lawyer or accountant or other boring loyal dude who is the kind of guy she wouldn’t have given the time of day to at 23 because her SMV was sky high then, way way above these guys. In other words, his view is that these girls are marrying later because the kind of men they would be interested in marrying when they are at their peak SMV (i.e., not normal guys) are not asking them.

    Leaving aside disagreement with this (I think with many women it has more to do with wanting a career per se than it does with Hemsworth not asking them to marry), how does this play out with, say HB 5.5 to HB-6.9 women? These women can’t think that they are entitled to a Hemsworth type, but they still aren’t marrying young. Maybe IBB is saying that the HB 5.5 is expecting one of the successful lawyer/accountant boring loyal dudes who is 30ish to ask her to marry when she is 23. That doesn’t seem to match my observations of what is going on, though. In my observation these average women are not interested in marrying, period, until they are a bit older, perhaps because they know they can’t attract the cream of the crop anyway, and a good number of them, especially in the 6 range, are riding the carousel like mad and having a great time doing so.

    Anyway like I said upthread, it’s a disagreement we can’t resolve because the data we have simply says when people are marrying, and doesn’t say why.

  204. AnonS says:

    Girls can always walk into a husband store, there are hundreds of them. The ticket price to enter is the low bar of signaling submissiveness, dressing feminine, be young, and being anti feminist. Do that and you get an ocean of offers.

    But that isn’t the frame. The frame is that the girl is the princess that gets to see her line of suitors travel from around the world to perform elaborate tricks for her and jump through her ever increasing hurdles (its the only way to be sure he is the best). But because girls don’t get their own brains, they assume that something will magically turn off their anxiety forever (if it ever comes back, it must be that the guy changed and she is no longer in love).

  205. What was going on during the critical 14 years?

    I don’t know that the answer matters.
    The suspension is shot, the tires are bald, it’s dog-tracking, the brakes don’t work and the engine light is on.
    Truth is, we really don’t want to know.

  206. goFigure says:

    Is seems that IBB is basically saying it’s weak men’s fault. If all men would just alpha up, then women would marry young, but not young enough to still be virgins.

  207. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Daughters of the King shouldn’t ever have to lift a finger …

    Why should they? God will deliver their Soul Mate to their doorstep, because God has an Amazing Plan for her.

    Indeed, if a woman ever made an effort, that would show a lack of faith in God. And that’s a sin. A holy, holy, holy woman shows her faith by letting God do all the work.

  208. feeriker says:

    Is seems that IBB is basically saying it’s weak men’s fault. If all men would just alpha up, then women would marry young, but not young enough to still be virgins.

    NAILED it. Boilerplate tradcon.

  209. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    These churchIan feminist daughters of the kink sound more and more gnostic by the day. Instead of “scripture says they say “god has put on my heart” or “god has shown”, even when what god has shown is antithetical to the revelation of scripture. Their feelz are treated not as a vulnerability that may lead to their own deception but as the Holy Spirit. When they feel it is divine and where the feelz lead is god’s will. Of course no preacher professional would risk his income stream by confronting or correcting such heresy, he has a church mortgage to protect. So smashing the China is not the act of rebellion, but the Holy Spirit getting his attention. Women feel this is true because it feels good to treated as a god even when they act as a child. Waiting for a worthy worshipper of her divinity, I mean a husband to affirm her every narcissistic impulse, is being true to herself which is true to god because she is as a god. The temptation of Eve manifests itself in her personal special revelation of divine knowledge, and her worthiness as an object of male worship. It becomes more clear by the day that christo-feminism is idolatry. Much as when Paul told the Ephesians to stop worshipping the goddess (Deborah or Artemis depending on translation) and riots followed, the same is true today in the church. Tell women to submit to scripture and not feelz and the riots are sure to follow. The idol industry is good business, and a little Gnosticism to justify the practice makes it legit in the eyes of the mystics and the blind.

  210. Joe says:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2018/09/13/feminine-wiles/

    Showing interest got her interest.

    But she still had to have something to offer, which of course she had/has a lot of (looks, feminine, not a career girl, outgoing, fun, wanted to be a stay at home mom…)

  211. Damn Crackers says:

    “I (and it seems the rest of us) have the opinion that women want to get their education and career lined up as a safety net before they start thinking of a spouse…”

    Haven’t women heard of the welfare state? Why would they need the safety net of college if they can get the entire state behind them for support if their husband leaves?

  212. Nova (all of you),

    I think what IBB is saying is that the men who are asking are not the ones who qualify hypergamously, and that the ones who qualify hypergamously are not asking. In other words, the idea is that an attractive young woman of say 23 (let’s say HB7+ age 23, Christian) is not going to accept a proposal from a “peer” — her value is higher than that, it is stratospherically high. So she will accept an offer from a rock star or movie star or pro athlete or maybe a taller, hunkier neurosurgeon who skydives on the weekends, but otherwise the men who actually ask her at that age are below her hypergamy threshold at that age, if any of them do ask her, and the athletes/stars/neuros are limited in number. So the girls wait until they are older and their SMV lowers, and they adjust their expectations, and then they marry some lawyer or accountant or other boring loyal dude who is the kind of guy she wouldn’t have given the time of day to at 23 because her SMV was sky high then, way way above these guys. In other words, his view is that these girls are marrying later because the kind of men they would be interested in marrying when they are at their peak SMV (i.e., not normal guys) are not asking them.

    Nova is correct here. A very Christian Hailey Baldwin got married at 21/22 because her spouse to be was Justin Beiber. Miley Cyrus/Hannah Montana got married at age 25 because her spouse to be was Liam Hemsworth.

    You guys are all supposed to be red pill. So start being red pill about this. When a young woman who is super hot gets married younger, why is she doing that? The world is her oyster, why focus on just that one guy that asks her? Why cut out all her other very plentiful options? Hailey Baldwin had $3,000,000 modeling contract and her dad was a Hollywood millionaire, why would she get married so young?

    Dread.

    Dalrock used to talk about dread a lot and I think this is very important to understand when talking about women getting married younger. We all know that women do NOT have the basic understanding of cause-and-affect. That is very well documented. But women (at ANY age) do get one thing entirely right when it comes to cause-and-effect mostly because this one thing is so very selfish: if he asks me to marry him and I say NO, how am I going to feel if he asks someone else and she says YES?!?!?

    Dread works. Its not that I think I believe that Hailey was so focused on spending the rest of her life with Justin NOR is it Myley spending the rest of her life with Liam (although I certainly HOPE that is what the two young ladies are thinking.) I think it is more that if they DIDN’T say yes, how would they feel (5 or 10 years later) if they said NO and someone ELSE said YES and they miss their window?

    Of all my friends who got married younger (to women who were in their peak SMV of 22), I’d say the main reason why the women said yes was because they were genuinely afraid that some OTHER woman would say YES if they said NO. To me that seems pretty straight-forward red pill. Actually, I’d really like to get Rollo’s take on this.

  213. Novaseeker says:

    Haven’t women heard of the welfare state? Why would they need the safety net of college if they can get the entire state behind them for support if their husband leaves?

    They want to live better than the welfare state offers. Welfare state doesn’t give them enough for regular vacations abroad, Louboutins, etc.

  214. goFigure says:

    IBB,

    Since you are presenting this as a ‘red pill truth’. Let me tell you another truth (it really doesn’t matter if it is red pill or not); if a woman is accepting a mans proposal because she is afraid some other woman might be willing to take her place; the man in question should vet her better and “kick her to the curb”.

    No man should accept being another mark on a check list. No man should ever accept a woman settling for them. Men are the prize that woman should work to get. If a woman can not accept that then let her have cats.

  215. goFigure, Nova,

    It appears that Dalrock went and created my very own discussion thread on this very topic. If you want to continue this, we should probably be over there and not here.

  216. wodansthane says:

    It appears that not only are these hamsters using PED’s these days, but they’re running the seminars as well. Who knew that the guy behind the curtain was furry.

  217. Thewestisweak says:

    @RPL I agree that polygamy is not God’s plan and a number of Christians eschew it even if it is legal and widely practiced back home. I myself am a happy monogamist. Polygamy works in my country no 80/20 or “ugly” women left behind because in our 3rd world country, survival not romance is the top priority. Widows don’t remarry outside the man’s family unless all his brothers and cousins died with him. Marriage is not so much the individual’s business as the family’s. A good looking woman who is not industrious or of suspect virginity is at a disadvantage (but can still get married to a widower or as a 2nd or 3rd wife) but a plain girl who is hardworking, chaste and hospitable is snapped up quickly. Our standards of beauty are different. You’ve probably heard the legend of Shaka Zulu who had all thin, short women slain to avoid the birth of worthless warriors, that mentality is still prevalent. Because of poor medical facilities and high infant and maternal mortality rates, a man looks to marry a robust woman, tall, wide hips (less chance of C-sections) and can work hard to run a home with many children. I think polygamy works because our men are still men, what men say, goes no matter their social class. A lone woman is an ostracized oddity. You western men need to rein your women in instead of wringing your hands about it.

  218. feministhater says:

    Her latest states that God has a lifelong ‘helpmeet’ waiting for you. Remember, she is speaking to a female audience and deliberately twisting those words. Eve was the helpmeet for Adam, not the other way around.

    This woman is bad news. She is leading her audience astray.

  219. Joe2 says:

    if he asks me to marry him and I say NO, how am I going to feel if he asks someone else and she says YES?!?!?

    This is the same phenomena that is seen played out in auctions. It is a an EXTREMELY powerful motivator. As was explained to me, several bidders can be bidding on one item and the bid price keeps escalating. Eventually, the auction comes down to two bidders who further escalate the bids. The reason for this is not that the bidder’s want the item that badly; it’s that they don’t want the other bidder to get the item. Later the winning bidder will experience “buyer’s remorse” or “buyer’s regret.”

  220. Anonymous Reader says:

    feministhater
    This woman is bad news. She is leading her audience astray.

    Lol! Ya think?

    Joe2
    This is the same phenomena that is seen played out in auctions.

    How many auctions have you personally been to?
    I’ve been to a few, mostly charity, and there are some items that never actually get sold. However they may be “sold” to a shill in the crowd who puts it back in stock later. I have personally seen this at NRA auctions, for example.

    I’m sure that this kind of “auction” mentality played out between high school girls and college girls back in the 1960’s, 1970’s and into the 1980’s. The median age of women at first marriage was around 20 – 22 in those years. However it’s been pretty much gone since the 1990’s. Evidence of this can be easily seen: the age of women at first marriage has been steadily going up since the early to mid 90’s.

    Women under 25 in the US are catered to in many ways, including by beta orbiters. There’s a reason the median age of US women at first marriage is now over 27: it can be summed up as “hypergamy plus choice addiction”.

    Perhaps this “auction” mentality still exists in US women over 30. It is not visible to any large degree in the girls under 25, except in some people’s imagination.

  221. Joe2 says:

    How many auctions have you personally been to?

    I’ve been to quite a few live auctions in person. Before the auction begins, the auctioneer (reputable) usually makes announcements about the auction, bidding process, etc. and cautions the bidders to make sure that when you bid you actually want the item and are not bidding because you don’t want some other bidder to get the item.

    I’ve experienced live auctions where the auctioneer (not reputable) is aware of this phenomena and proceeds to play one bidder against another. The auctioneer can say something directed to one of the bidders like, “don’t let it get away for a dollar” “just a dollar more it can be yours” “last chance” “you’re going to lose it for a dollar” and then when the item gets bid up he says something similar to the other bidder.

    I no longer attend auctions because of “shill” bids, consignors bidding up their own items, fake left bids, fake call-in bids, etc. In the business it’s known as “bidding against the wall.” And some auctioneers (not reputable) will deliberately let an item go at a low bid to their associates or to get the attendees excited that they can get a bargain. In fact, I attended a live auction where a “Victorian gaming table” was offered and let go at a relatively low price which was met by claims from some of the attendees that they bid higher and the auctioneer didn’t acknowledge their bid. The scene got very nasty and the auction was stopped.

  222. Moses says:

    Allyson Rowe is kind of a thot.

  223. Moses says:

    From urbandictionary.com:

    Thot

    A thot is usually active on social media especially instagram and Snapchat. On instagram she can be found in pictures of her in the dog filter and is usually half naked. On Snapchat she is most likely posting videos of her obnoxiously lip syncing to rap songs, while playing with her hair, thinking she looks like Kylie Jenner. Probably wears Calvin Klein, Adidas and Nike hats. She has perfect eyeliner and contour and she seems like she doesn’t care what anyone think’s about her. She may come across as a fake, conceited, shallow dumb bitch, but deep down she is insecure and unfortunately the only way she gets confidence is by getting validation from men on social media by posting pictures showing off her figure and plastic face. Next time you see a thot be nicer to them, they still haven’t developed fully yet.

  224. Just Saying says:

    Hahahaha… Soon to be single at 40 too… I am mid-50’s and do not date women older then 25 – they get the baby rabies after that. I wouldn’t marry an American woman – most are only useful for one night stands at best. I use them for that as often as possible . Cannot tell you how many married women or those in long term relationships say, “I never do this.” But there they are, bent over enjoying it. What they mean is they don’t want hubby or boyfriend to know what they are. Smart men know and use them, the dumb ones marry them.

  225. Pingback: Think It Through — Link Roundup 5/14/19

  226. Pingback: Worth the Wait? | Dalrock

  227. Lashkar-e-Trumpi says:

    Worldy Wiseman is a character from Pilgrim’s Progress, who sets Christian on a false path to “Civility” and “Legality” in lieu of Salvation.

  228. BillyS says:

    This woman is bad news. She is leading her audience astray.

    She does look quite like a THOT. Good looking, but I wouldn’t trust her and the look would be a big part of that.

  229. Pingback: Marriage and children were always her priority. | Dalrock

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