Loud and proud complementarians: Holy homosexuality.

On the fringes of complementarian homosexual activism is the idea that while gay sex is sinful, gayness as an orientation is holy.  Dr. Albert Mohler describes this sentiment coming out of the Revoice conference last year:

In one of the more astounding moments of Revoice, Nate Collins read from Jeremiah 15 and then asked:

Is it possible that gay people today are being sent by God, like Jeremiah, to find God’s words for the church, to eat them and make them our own? To shed light on contemporary false teachings and even idolatries, not just the false teaching of the progressive sexual ethic, but other more subtle forms of false teaching? Is it possible that gender and sexual minorities who have lived lives of costly obedience are themselves a prophetic call to the church to abandon idolatrous attitudes toward the nuclear family, toward sexual pleasure? If so, we are prophets.

Keep in mind that this movement is designed to transform conservative Christianity.  This is on the fringes (today) of the complementarian movement to accept homosexuality, but it is far closer than all but a handful of observers understand.  Rev Thomas Littleton explained this back in June of 2018 in his post Revoice Response:  Albert Mohler and the Missing Link:

The highly controversial Revoice conference is about a month away. We broke the story over six weeks ago, exposing Revoice and its stated goal of “Promoting LGBT+ Flourishing in historic Christian tradition.” Today the machinery of The Gospel Coalition and the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission is in full swing attempting to “cover” the story in a way any trained media savvy believer would find disturbing. What IS NOW being said by TGC and ERLC is coordinated and calculated. What is NOT being said is intentional and dishonest.

First, little, if anything, was said in the weeks after our initial exposure of the conference on May 10. The first major outlet promoting Revoice was Living Out, the ministry of TGC editor and ERLC writer and speaker, Sam Allberry. His ministry is a collective of Same Sex Attracted gay priests from the UK / Church of England. Sam Allberry’s endorsement of Revoice was a massive red flag that signaled a broadening of the message of “SSA/ Gay Christianity” to the radical “LGBT+, Sexual Minority, Queer Christian” language of Revoice.

What none of these responders do, including Albert Mohler, is ADMIT that the reason REVOICE was and remains controversial is that it is in CLOSE PROXIMITY to the heart of their own camp!  Do not miss that fact, of which they are attempting feverishly to keep you ignorant in the “comprehensive article” published by Colin Smothers.

Littleton also connects the dots between Revoice and CBMW president Denny Burk:

Denny Burk works at Boyce College and is a ERLC/TGC speaker on issues related to sexuality and LGBT as head of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Collin Smothers, who compiles the articles and provides the critique above, also works for CBMW. Both are disciples of Dr. Albert Mohler of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Burk’s article was among the first responses posted on May 30th –almost 3 weeks after the story broke. It recommends a “wait and see” attitude regarding the Revoice Conference despite its radical language of “Queer Christianity” and “LGBT+ Christian.” In the Burk piece, he has the screen shot of a workshop titled “Redeeming Queer Culture an Adventure” which he inserted 24 hours BEFORE it appeared on the official Revoice website.  During a Twitter exchange, Burk was asked about the timing – how he had the new workshop screen shot in advance – after which he blocked the author of the question. In the days following, in Twitter streams among Revoice leaders and Burk, Denny messaged to one of the Revoice leaders that they should talk but not in the open Twitter stream. However, this issue should not have back room communications given its goal of changing the conversation (and teaching) of the Church and all conservative denominations impacted by it. Denny Burk echoes what Dr. Mohler has said on the topic of homosexuality in years past, as if sexual orientation, is the topic of Revoice. However, the language of Revoice – LGBT+ (sexual minorities) Christians / Queer Christianity – is radical, unheard of in the Church and represents uncharted waters for the Church.

Another example of the argument that being gay is holy is from Gregory Coles. As Littleton notes, Coles wrote this in a book endorsed by D.A. Carson (president of The Gospel Coalition):

Mohler quotes from Gregory Coles’ (worship leaders for Revoice) Book, “Single Gay Christian,” which is heartily endorsed by D.A. Carson, and then tosses in the statement “That is an astounding question.”

“One of the individuals involved in the conference and a book published just last year asked the question: ‘Is it too dangerous, too unorthodox, to believe that I am uniquely designed to reflect the glory of God? That my orientation, before the fall, was meant to be a gift in appreciating the beauty of my own sex as I celebrated the friendship of the opposite sex?’ That’s an astounding question.”

Is it really, Dr. Mohler? Coles’ academic specialty is Minority Rhetoric and racial, feminist and gender theory. Either you just got played by Coles or you are using Coles’ quote to PLAY US!

Here is D.A. Carson’s endorsement of the book:

“To say this book is important is a painful understatement. It is the candid, moving, intensely personal story of a gay young man who wants to live his life under the authority of King Jesus and who refuses to accept the comforting answers proffered by different parts of the culture. Superbly written, this book stands athwart the shibboleths of our day and reminds us what submission to King Jesus looks like, what it feels like. This book needs to be thoughtfully read by straight people and by gay people, by unbelievers and by Christians. It is not to be read with a condescending smirk, but with humility.”

D. A. Carson, president, The Gospel Coalition, research professor of New Testament, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

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This entry was posted in Albert Mohler, D.A. Carson, Dr. Denny Burk, Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), Living Out, Loud and proud complementarians, Pastor Sam Allberry, Rev Thomas Littleton, Revoice, Social Justice Warriors, The Gospel Coalition, Thirty Pieces of Silver Blog. Bookmark the permalink.

70 Responses to Loud and proud complementarians: Holy homosexuality.

  1. Frank K says:

    Nothing surprises me anymore. I expect the rainbow flag to be flying just about everywhere soon.

  2. vfm7916 says:

    SJW convergence is always slow, steady, and relentless. Only in firm public rejections can it be fought, and once an organization is converged it cannot be brought back. A new organization with a firm rejection of SJW policy, such as an outright Old Testament statement on Homosexuality, can you prevent entry into the organization. SJW’s also need to be expelled in the harshest terms possible, publicly, and the reason given. There are more than enough examples of the camel’s nose under the tent flap around.

    Reading up on SJW’s Always Lie and SJW’s Always Double Down are helpful.

    It’s also important to remember the effect of homosexuality on the Catholic Church’s seminaries: decades of pedophilia and abuse. This is a general rule that will not always apply in the specific, but its frequency fundamentally cast a massive shadow over all Christianity.

    If you hear appeals to “nice” or “tolerance”, or “made in God’s image” reject them, harshly. It is the acceptance of those appeals in the past that have led Christians down the hell-road of complementarianism in the first place.

  3. Tired of the Insanity says:

    Arguably, the reason why this has progressed to the point is that modern Evangelicalism simply does not teach on sin in any way, shape, or form. Sin is too much of a downer; so they won’t talk about it. God wants you to be happy; and calls us to just love one another. Love is now equated with tolerance. Look at any megachurch, the teaching is all about how to have a good life, how we too have resurrection power. Not that we too will rise by virtue of Christ’s resurrection, but that because Christ moved that stone in His way, we too can move any “stones in our way.” It fulfills the words of St. Paul in II Timothy 4:2-4: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

  4. squid_hunt says:

    “Is it possible that gay people today are being sent by God, like Jeremiah, to find God’s words for the church, to eat them and make them our own? To shed light on contemporary false teachings and even idolatries, not just the false teaching of the progressive sexual ethic, but other more subtle forms of false teaching? Is it possible that gender and sexual minorities who have lived lives of costly obedience are themselves a prophetic call to the church to abandon idolatrous attitudes toward the nuclear family, toward sexual pleasure? If so, we are prophets.”

    If you’ve never read von Daniken’s Chariots of the Gods, this was his entire schtick, a method of setting up a ridiculous conclusion with a series of ridiculous, unsubstantiated assumptions.

  5. Expat Philo says:

    Oh look, more homosexuals fixated on their proclivities. Must be a slow day.

  6. Gary Eden says:

    Keep in mind that this movement is designed to transform conservative Christianity. This is on the fringes (today) of the complementarian movement to accept homosexuality, but it is far closer than all but a handful of observers understand.

    I think you are exactly right, I can see all the ways they’ve been laying the groundwork for this.

    Something you need to keep in mind, the pastorate is corrupted. Closeted gay pastors, peado pastors, pastors involved in child porn or even child trafficing; that stuff is riff through the Protestant church and you don’t even know it.

    All we are seeing now is perception management, managing the transition of getting the flock on board.

  7. Basedangemon says:

    Modern evangelical leaders are experts in one thing: sophistry. Thinking themselves wise, they presume to teach, though it be lies and the commandments of men (“be nice,” “don’t offend,” “being well-liked means you’re doing right by Jesus”). All the while they are subsidized by well-meaning but clueless Christians, enjoying the high-life of material security in exchange for writing tracts and speaking to adoring fans, relishing the adulation they receive for showing off how clever they are.

    I don’t presume to know what their judgement will look like, but I fear for them.

    I also fear for the Christians who are the very image of Athenians; always looking for the next intellectual titillation, ecstatically trembling at each new suggestion that they are smarter than their ancestors. And which they are currently finding in the form of “new discoveries” that God does not hate homosexuality after all.

  8. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    It is the candid, moving, intensely personal story of a gay young man who wants to live his life under the authority of King Jesus ….

    His authority, just not the ethical standards of his Word. Because Jesus would never tell a sinner to repent.

  9. Gary Eden says:

    The Achilles heal of the conservative church is their evangelicalism. Any and all efforts on the part of individual members of the flock to walk in holiness and righteousness or cast judgment on sin is met with overwhelming force on the grounds the behavior will keep away seekers.

    The quickest way to get kicked out of a church isn’t to sin but to attempt to obey the scriptures in your life; even if you do so silently without a word.

    Those that are left in the church have not the guts to stand up to anything. The American church is not materially different than the left. They just emptily virtue signal about different things.

  10. Mitch says:

    Al Mohler was recently asked about his refusal to sign the Dallas Statement on social justice and he just acted petulant and defensive. It was quite a contrast from his usual certitude and bold stances against theological liberalism. But I finally realized why this man can be so good in some contexts and such a squish in others. The answer has to do with the 11th commandment, which is Al shalt not speak ill of another Southern Baptist.

    Al has a lot of SJW’s on the faculty at Southern Seminary and he has to watch his back on issues they care about. So with Social Justice issues, he is a weasel. Revoice was held at a Presbyterian Church and Nate Collins was already gone as an instructor at his seminary so he was free to fire at will. He is on firm ground with LGBT and abortion issues.

    On issues of feminism and gender roles, however, he is a squish. He can only go so far and will stand on the Bible where he has to but then include a healthy dose of male-bashing to compensate and placate the feminists at his seminary.

  11. Otto says:

    Andy Stanley, who leads a megachurch north of Atlanta, is an example of an evangelical pastor going soft on homosexuality.

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-andy-stanley-responds-to-questions-over-homosexuality-stance.html

    Stanley told the story of a divorced couple who formerly attended North Point together. They separated after the woman’s husband began a same-sex relationship with another man, who was still married to a woman.

    The man and his partner wanted to serve as volunteers at the church, but Stanley explained that the two men were committing adultery since one of them did not finalize his divorce yet and thus could not serve as volunteers.

    The “messy” story, as Stanley described it, ends with the gay couple, the first man’s ex-wife and their child, as well as her new boyfriend and his child from another relationship, all coming together to worship together at a big service at North Point Church. The pastor refers to them as an example of a modern day family.

  12. 7817 says:

    This is anything but “slow news day” material. Evangelical Christian denominations are being subverted right in front of us, and most members have not noticed. It’s fascinating to watch in real time. And look who they say the bad guy is here: Dalrock, the guy that noticed.

  13. Scott says:

    Man it would be cool to be gay because the license to do and say pretty much whatever you want with impunity.

    Problem is when I think about sitting on the couch, moving in for the kiss and the other guys scruffy face and hairy arms start moving toward me I throw up a little in my mouth.

  14. Novaseeker says:

    That my orientation, before the fall, was meant to be a gift in appreciating the beauty of my own sex as I celebrated the friendship of the opposite sex?

    Notice that the take here is different from that taken by the mainstream/left Christians (i.e., nothing wrong with gay sex, it’s all good) in that the point of view here appears at least to endorse chastity for homosexuals while denying the reality that the orientation/attraction itself is deeply problematic and can’t possibly be viewed as pre-lapsarian other than in the most tortured of possible interpretations. It is nonsensical for there to have been a created/intended pre-lapsarian *sexual* orientation which is, in itself incapable of being acted on without sin. That is a nonsensical idea. A “sexual” orientation isn’t about the appreciation of beauty, it is the longing for sexual union — two becoming one flesh — and it is impossible for homosexual persons to have this because the flesh involved is not complementary/does not “fit together as one flesh” — it is rather a crude impersonation of the joining involved in actual sexual union, which is why it is roundly condemned in scripture. Why would this sexual orientation have been created/intended if it were completely incapable of being fulfilled without sin? That is, again, nonsensical, and falling back on some idea that it is designed to allow a small portion of men to appreciate male beauty in the context of same sex friendships is not only creepy (the last thing straight men want is gay friends who are hot for them!) but more fundamentally utterly misunderstands what sexual orientation *is* — it is the desire for sexual union, not appreciation of beauty. Appreciation of beauty is the precursor — the entirety of the orientation is towards the sexual union, the joining together — something which is impossible in the context of homosexual sex. It simply cannot be that this orientation was intended/created and pre-lapsarian.

    That many people, almost all of them heterosexual, are convinced by this line of thinking merely underscores how corrupted the overall view of sex has become in the church, and the fact that many Christians have warped views of what sex and sexual orientation really are.

  15. squid_hunt says:

    @Gary Eden

    The Achilles heal of the conservative church is their evangelicalism. Any and all efforts on the part of individual members of the flock to walk in holiness and righteousness or cast judgment on sin is met with overwhelming force on the grounds the behavior will keep away seekers.

    Gary, can you define evangelicalism in this statement? I fail to see how telling others about Jesus Christ precludes holiness. It’s the non-evangelical outreach of self described evangelicals which is corrupting the church. Car giveaways, rock concerts, and singles trips are perverse and non-biblical methods of growing the church. And if you use a circus to grow your crowd you have to keep making the circus bigger and bigger to keep it.

  16. squid_hunt says:

    @Novaseeker

    I think you are onto the biggest dilemna for witnessing to sodomites. They tie their perversion into their identity. It’s who they are, they’re born that way, God made them that way. All of that is a lie. It is a wicked sin which they do. Their minds are full of iniquity, their flesh full of lust. They have to confess those things and repent or they cannot be saved and to do so is to give up what they believe is their identity.

    I Corinthians 9:6-11
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

  17. Neat! Now Christians who struggle with SSA can just go ahead and spiritually bleed out! They can waste years on nonsense! It’s great!

  18. Jake says:

    This before the fall thing is hilarious. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve? Thats what was going on before the fall. A little bit later he said homosexuals should be put to death. Your not special either. Basically everyone with a corrosive effect on society the punishment was death. Adulterers, rebellious children, people who have sex with animals. All things we celebrate now.

    I don’t think any of these things preclude a path temporal redemption. I got my own problems and paul said those who burn with passion should get married. My path is clear and i think too the sodomites have a clear path. Get married. When your pants are itchy there is an outlet.

    If you want to pretend sodomy is about anything but friction we are done talking. There is no further discussion. Look at a pride parade. The worst of philanderers doesn’t really compareto the average sodomite in terms of sexual partners.

    This is allso stupid. Sodomy is misery. It’s like heroin use. They crave more and more and more, debasing themselves more and more and more. Sodomy is consumption. They look for younger and younger partners because destroying innocence makes them feel alive.

    There will be blood before sodomy is again rejected. Society is too far gone, and the church has lifted her skirts and gone running after it.

  19. Oscar says:

    It never fails. Every time Christians compromise on women’s roles in the family and in the Church, compromise on sexual morality is never far behind.

    Next, we’ll hear about the holiness of “transgenderism”.
    Then, we’ll hear about the holiness of child attraction.
    Then, we’ll hear about the holiness of relative attraction.
    Then, we’ll hear about the holiness of animal attraction.
    Then, we’ll hear about the holiness of formerly-alive attraction.

  20. Damn Crackers says:

    “Is it possible that gay people today are being sent by God, like Jeremiah, to find God’s words for the church, to eat them and make them our own?”

    This question sounds a little gay to me.

  21. Jake says:

    @jonadab

    Yes! What did jesus say to their favorite example, the adulteress he saved from stoning?

    @Scott

    That primal revulsion is a good thing. It’s a gift from God. Sodomites want to take it away by continuing to expose themselves to you.

    @novaseeker

    The ugliest thing sodomites do is pervert the relationship two men can have. They look at samwise’s devotion to frodo and attempt to claim it. Every interaction with another man needs to be evaluated for gayness because they don’t understand friendship or love

  22. Frank K says:

    Man it would be cool to be gay because the license to do and say pretty much whatever you want with impunity.

    Lesbian Martina Navratilova was taken out to the woodshed because she said that men shouldn’t be able to compete in women’s sports. She quickly apologized for such wrong think.

    In the current year Trannies sit on the throne, though it will be short lived, as pedos will soon bump them off the top of the pyramid. And lesbians will have to keep their yaps shut when creepy pedos come to “date” their young children, unless they want the boys and girls in blue (with firearms ready) and CPS to show up at their door.

  23. Matt Cochran says:

    Looks like the lavender lobby is using the feminist playbook to neutralize conservative Christians. Prey on their fear of the world’s hate by tempting them to balance condemnation of the sin with obsequious flattery of the identity group. Eventually, the latter will silence the former.

    And why shouldn’t they adopt the strategy? It worked pretty damn well for feminists, after all.

  24. Otto says:

    Next, we’ll hear about the holiness of “transgenderism”.

    Speaking of transgenderism: Hormone therapy may increase cardiovascular risk during gender transition https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190218093959.htm

    Transwomen (male at birth, transition to female).
    Stroke: 2x increase
    Blood Clot: 4.5x increase
    Heart Attack: 2x increase

    Transmen (female at birth, transition to male)
    Heart Attack: 3x increase

    Is a child mature enough to make this type of decision? Are parents acting in the best interest of their child by allowing these hormones to be administered? Are physicians “doing no harm” by administering these hormones?

    And, of course, we don’t know the long term affects of this type of hormone therapy, because it would be considered unethical to experiment on humans in this way. And yet we are giving these hormones to children. How will it affect their heart in the years to come?

  25. LeeWilly Minifees says:

    On the fringes of complementarian homosexual activism is the idea that while gay sex is sinful, gayness as an orientation is holy.

    This idea is a standard fixture of Gnostic doctrine. Gnosticism is at least as old as Christianity and throughout history was often the dominant religion in Europe.

    So, nothing new or unexpected. Gnostics were always fond of wearing Christian skinsuits.

  26. seventiesjason says:

    Heart attacks have skyrocketed for women since the 1990’s…..now the playbook will tell us that “our society doesn’t care about womens health”

    but the obvious will be ignored.

    Use of the birth control pill for more than a three / four year period increases the risk dramatically of heart attacks.

    In grad school I knew women who claimed they had been on the pill since they were sixteen…….

  27. Blake. W. says:

    “Is it too dangerous, too unorthodox, to believe that I am uniquely designed to reflect the glory of God? That my orientation, before the fall, was meant to be a gift in appreciating the beauty of my own sex as I celebrated the friendship of the opposite sex?”

    Yes, yes it is. Same-sex attraction did not – could not – exist before the fall. It is for all intents and purposes a biological aberration, as proven time and again by any genetic study focusing on human sexuality. It is a sexual malfunction which infected God’s original created design as a result of sin’s corrupting influence.

    Implying one is a “prophet” or somehow uniquely gifted by God for feeling attraction towards one’s own sex is the equivalent of a heterosexual man implying his (ungodly) urge to seek sexual gratification outside of marriage is somehow holy. It isn’t. It is a sinful proclivity inherited as a result of man’s willful disobedience toward his Creator.

    Also, I’m sick to the back teeth of people like Gregory Coles conflating the legitimate gift of holy singleness (as described by the apostle Paul) with same sex attraction. The gift of singleness as described in scripture implies a complete lack of sexual needs altogether, of any persuasion, and not merely a lack of the appropriate attraction towards the opposite sex.

    Today this lot tries to convert Christendom toward accepting same sex attraction as legitimate, tomorrow, towards pedophilia, polyamory, and even worse things.

    Watch.

  28. Pingback: Loud and proud complementarians: Holy homosexuality. | Reaction Times

  29. Frank K says:

    Use of the birth control pill for more than a three / four year period increases the risk dramatically of heart attacks.

    Unhealthy lives in general. In addition to the pill there is the obesity epidemic. And instead of dealing with it, society goes into denial with nonsense such as the “Healthy at any weight” movement.

  30. Joe says:

    The pastor of the Baptist Church we just left preached one day that same sex attraction was not a sin. He used a book written by a same sex attracted “pastor” to back up his assertion. That was the last straw in a series of things over the last few months.
    Fortunately, we now go to a Church that actually practices Church discipline on homosexuals. This is very rare for a large Church.
    I am impressed by the pastor. He’s masculine. That’s rare in ANY Church…

  31. The Question says:

    @Joe

    “Fortunately, we now go to a Church that actually practices Church discipline on homosexuals. This is very rare for a large Church.”

    I think the of all these problems in the church is a total lack of accountability tied with codependency. Christians don’t follow God wholeheartedly, and so they overlook the sins of others who demand their sins be tolerated as well – provided their own sin isn’t called out. One of the things Mark Driscoll actually got very correct was that whenever someone haggles over what the Bible says, it’s usually due to sexual immorality. It’s why despite the apparently high rate of pornography addiction among the men and pastors, it’s not treated anywhere near as seriously as it should – because then it would lead to a discussion about the lack of sex within the marriage and what the Bible says about that. Inevitably, it would also lead to conversations about how seriously the “no sex until marriage” mantra is taken by Christians, particularly the women who are increasingly delaying marriage until they’re much older. If Christians won’t hold themselves accountable on biblical teachings regarding sex, marriage and gender roles, than how can they hold others accountable when they do not want to follow the Bible on other sexual behavior?

  32. eugene says:

    When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm? A lot of you sit on your high horses and condemn homosexuality while some of you are 300 pounds or on your fifth marriage. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  33. Daniel says:

    This form of argument seemed familiar to me. Asking a question instead of making a statement:

    Is it possible that gay people today are being sent by God, like Jeremiah…

    This form of speech adopts a false modesty, and a plausible deniability. “Oh, I never claimed that dogmatically, I was just asking a question…”

    Then I remembered that Sheila Gregorie uses the same type of rhetoric:

    What if setting a modesty dress code actually becomes a stumbling block for women because it weakens their faith?

    And then she went on to shame men for upholding standards.

    What if black is white? Is it possible that we have made idols of our own optical perception? Etc.

  34. Frank K says:

    When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm? A lot of you sit on your high horses and condemn homosexuality while some of you are 300 pounds or on your fifth marriage. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    Nice ad hominem attack. And in case you forgot, the scriptures condemn homosexuality. And while I do not know the other posters personally, I believe that almost all have been married no more than once, which is more than can be said for the average American.

    Will you be back here in a few years, lecturing us on why we need to listen to pedophiles and their stories and that we need to get off of our high horses?

  35. SirHamster says:

    The pastor of the Baptist Church we just left preached one day that same sex attraction was not a sin. He used a book written by a same sex attracted “pastor” to back up his assertion. That was the last straw in a series of things over the last few months.

    It is not a sin, in that attraction can be involuntary.

    But homosexual attraction is the product of sin – perversion of the normal sexual attraction between man and woman, perhaps by random chance, perhaps the product of the father’s sins.

    It is also a temptation to sin in sodomy, against the holy temple of God.

  36. Frank K says:

    Is it possible that gay people today are being sent by God, like Jeremiah…

    That my friends, is what is known as blasphemy.

  37. Gary Eden says:

    @squid_hunt

    Within evangelical church circles there is very little real evangelism. But they are real big on inviting people to church (a lot of which ends up being fighting over the same church hoppers and not actual unsaved people). Anything which those ‘seekers’ might find offensive, which might drive them to not come back, is squashed hard.

  38. Expat Philo says:

    eugene,

    Such discussions inevitably end with the realization that the homosexual’s father was not present, taken as broadly as possible, and the poor soul’s mother was quite the harridan.

    Why, my previously mentioned afflicted coworker had what might be called an idyllic childhood: both parents, dinner every day, all the stereotypical trappings. Except his father worked overseas for several months of the year, while his mother was a solid feminist harpy. The end result is that he is essentially terrified of being intimate with a woman, but men are associated with infrequent yet powerful sentiments of understanding.

    Combine that with the following: men don’t shit test, men try to build each other up, close male friendships have been sexualized long before the open embrace of homosexuality, and blue pill conditioning equates the roles and habits of the sexes. It is understandable why some men prefer sexual unions with other men, but it is still wrong.

    I agree that homosexuality requires more care than some here give it, considering its causes, but sin IS sin. Would anyone argue that ignoring a murder because of its causes is the right thing to do? Hardly.

    Also, nice ad hominem and appeal to authority.

  39. info says:

    @expat philo
    The fact that his father married a feminist harpy is the problem in the 1st place.

  40. Anonymous Reader says:

    The fact that his father married a feminist harpy is the problem in the 1st place.

    Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the real problem was the Blue Pill father didn’t know any better, and dutifully took overseas jobs to bring in even more money for his family, just as he was told to do, leaving the “home front” to his till-death-do-us-part.

    People change, as you should be aware by now. Life changes, job changes, etc. can and do lead to people reacting differently. A woman who is left alone for months at a time with a child becomes the boss, the decision maker whose decisions cannot be appealed. She might even become a cartoon version of a “man”, whatever that looks like inside her head.

    She may have started out as an equity feminist (many women are) who then became more shrill. She may have resented her husband’s absence even as she was enjoying the money, and taken that resentment out on her son – women do that, you know.

    The deeper argument expat philo is dealing with is “nature or nurture”? It is one of the modern shibboliths that sexual behaviors are inborn, and only that. Nothing else. “Born this way”, but only when it comes to sexuality.

    @eugene

    I’ve known homosexual men, and listened to them, ditto homosexual women[1]. I’ve also known alcoholics and people strung out on opiates. All of them were hurting in some sense from past injuries, mostly emotional. It doesn’t make what they were doing to themselves any better. In the context of this blog, Bible quotes regarding sex are clear.

    I’ve also known heterosexual, normal, men who had a real desire for women other than their wife. Nobody in any church is rolling out the carpet for that “attraction”, I wonder why?

    I suspect a lot of factors are involved. Lower T is one. Female domination of society is another. The K – 12 matriarchy is possibly one factor.

    Early sexual experiences that cause deep channeling of a neural pathway is very likely another.

    Don’t troll and run away, eugene, stick around for a while.

    [1] So far almost every “lesbian” I’ve actually had a real conversation with turned out to be more bisexual than homosexual. This fits in with evolutionary biology (which many people don’t agree with) along with other aspects of women’s behavior. It also tends to make their lives ever more messy and complicated, and does no favors for any children they may have.

  41. Anonymous Reader says:

    Correction to the above: “evolutionary psychology (which many people don’t agree with}”.

    Evo-psych may be a collection of “just so” stories but they explain such things as hypergamy better than most other stories.

  42. Oscar says:

    @ eugene
    on March 20, 2019 at 4:18 pm

    When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm? A lot of you sit on your high horses and condemn homosexuality while some of you are 300 pounds or on your fifth marriage. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    I’m 500 lbs, so my ho horse is no longer high.

  43. info says:

    @AR
    ”Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe the real problem was the Blue Pill father didn’t know any better, and dutifully took overseas jobs to bring in even more money for his family, just as he was told to do, leaving the “home front” to his till-death-do-us-part. ”

    I think that shows the importance of the red pill. As well as ways to evaluate women’s character and whether they are likely to become a feminist harpy.

    Likewise I think too many men think that getting money the way you described is better for the family. Given how the son turned out. I think that unless the father is a consistent presence to a certain degree and doing what he should. All that money might as well be flushed down the drain.

    It pays off more in the long term to have a relatively poorer but much more well adjusted children than rich spoiled brats or as dysfunctional children in other ways.

  44. Robert What? says:

    How soon before a man taking it up the ass is considered a holy sacrement?

  45. Anonymous Reader says:

    anon
    I think that shows the importance of the red pill.

    Reality is always important. Note that generally Traditional Conservatives are strongly opposed to anything even close to Red Pill / The Glasses. One of the interesting things about the W@rhorn dust up was the implication that ordinary men were getting red pilled and it was concerning to Nathan and the boys…

    As well as ways to evaluate women’s character and whether they are likely to become a feminist harpy.

    Vetting matters. Vetting a woman’s friends and relatives matters. Constantly correcting bad behavior matters too.

    Likewise I think too many men think that getting money the way you described is better for the family.

    One of the first lesbians I ever met was the daughter of a man who served on a US Navy nuclear missile sub. He was gone for 6 months then home for 6 months. She mentioned once that in her teens she regarded him as “Who are you?” more than once. Such jobs are necessary but come with a price.

    Just saying…

  46. Lost Patrol says:

    a prophetic call to the church to abandon idolatrous attitudes toward the nuclear family

    Why, one might ask, is Dr. Nate Collins, “an instructor of New Testament Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary”, calling upon the church to do this?

    Let his bio tell it –

    “Speaking from his own unique experience as a married, same-sex-attracted/gay man who is a husband, father, and follower of Christ,…”

    “He has been married to his wife, Sara, for thirteen years, and they have three young sons.”

    https://www.centerforfaith.com/about/leadership/dr-nate-collins

    That old nuclear family idol just isn’t cutting it for Nate the prophet’s personal situation.

  47. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    squid_hunt: I think you are onto the biggest dilemna for witnessing to sodomites. They tie their perversion into their identity. It’s who they are, they’re born that way, God made them that way.

    Many Jews have a similar mindset. That they are ethnic Jews, which is an immutable identity that makes it impossible for them to accept Jesus.

    I’ve met many atheistic or secular Jews in Los Angeles. They’ll dabble in the New Age, Buddhism, astrology. But if you mention Jesus, they’ll say, “But … I’m a Jew.”

    Being a Jew is no impediment for them to explore pagan or Eastern spiritual paths. Yet they sincerely believe that their Jewish identity precludes them from accepting Jesus. Doing so is both impossible for them, and a betrayal of their race, people, heritage, etc. Whereas, joining a Wiccan coven, or a Buddhist temple, or praying in a Native American shaman ritual, is no betrayal of their Jewish identity.

    This is a very clever ruse on Satan’s part, with both gays and Jews. Convince people that they are born with an immutable identity that makes them unable to accept Jesus. Of course, such people will get angry if anyone suggests that Jesus is the only way, because they believe they can never go that way.

  48. feeriker says:

    Nothing surprises me anymore. I expect the rainbow flag to be flying just about everywhere soon.

    Within five years Evangelical churches will be performing same-sex marriage ceremonies. At first the excuse will be that the State is forcing them to do it for fear of losing their tax-exempt status (or some such nonsense). It won’t be long after that, though, that they’ll drop any pretense of external pressure and just say that NOT performing such ceremonies is “cruel,” “judgmental,” or “non-inclusive.”

    Count on it.

    The Achilles heal of the conservative church is their evangelicalism. Any and all efforts on the part of individual members of the flock to walk in holiness and righteousness or cast judgment on sin is met with overwhelming force on the grounds the behavior will keep away seekers.

    “Evangelical” is really a misnomer for these churches, very, VERY few of whom actually do any active, consistent evangelizing as a body, anywhere. It not only takes too much effort, but most churches are so abysmally awful at apologetics that any serious effort at evangelism “in the field” would likely result in a spiritual rout on par with what the German Wehrmacht suffered militarily at Stalingrad. “Evangelical” pastors know this full well, which is why they avoid actual outreach like the plague.

    Any “evangelism” done by these churches is purely passive and lukewarm. It reveals the whole “seeker friendly” mindset to be a by-product of the spiritual laziness that has rendered these churches ineffective, lifeless, and irrelevant.

  49. Frank K says:

    Any “evangelism” done by these churches is purely passive and lukewarm.

    I am astounded by the number of teen who approach me, asking me to help fund summer junkets where they claim they will go evangelize. Why go to Ecuador, when there is so much work to be done in their own backyards?

  50. “To find God’s words for the church, to eat them and make them our own?”

    I hate to be crass, but the phrase ‘eating God’s word’ signals something, and I think it’s something these gay activists are aware of. I wouldn’t be surprised if ‘Gay Christians’ were deliberately trying to revive the heresy of the Bourbourites.

  51. feministhater says:

    When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm? A lot of you sit on your high horses and condemn homosexuality while some of you are 300 pounds or on your fifth marriage. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    Screw you. Not a single person present has stoned anyone, least of all a gay person, to death. Therefore your point is absolutely without any merit whatsoever. Meaningless drivel. Don’t think that because one is not to stone to death a sinner, means calling out sin is not allowed. Nice attempt, gay lover, but it is lost here.

    Fuck off.

  52. wodansthane says:

    @ Feministhater
    Fuck Off.
    Can I get an AMEN from the congregation?

    @ Otto
    The very fact that this nonsense is being discussed ups my heart attack/stroke risk. Thank the LORD that we have some really keen observers who pay attention to, point out, and call out this heresy.

  53. Basedangemon says:

    Just a note, gentlemen, that the Pericope Adulterae (including the “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” passage) is not an original feature of John’s Gospel.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/John-7-53-8-11.html

    Make of that what you will, but for my part if someone comes in swinging that club they are instantly disregarded as someone who only knows enough about Scripture to try and support an agenda with it. Much like Satan quoting it at Jesus during the temptation.

  54. squid_hunt says:

    @basedangemon

    This is because the earliest (and many would say the most reliable) Greek manuscripts

    Right… Most reliable. The ones that don’t agree with any of the others or even each other.

  55. squid_hunt says:

    @RPL
    Sorry I’m so late. Just saw this.I don’t know what to say to Jews. I know people who have had a heart for reaching jews and can approach them. I’m not going to be that guy. There’s a channel on Youtube called oneforisrael which has testimonies of Jews (and some pretty high profile ones) getting saved. It’s a little showy, but the message is pretty clear.

    As for sodomites, I think for the most part if they’re going to be willing to come into the church and listen, you should preach the hell out of them. If they stick around and listen, then you keep preaching. When they get saved, they should want to give up that life. If they won’t give it up, you put them out. Finding common ground is absolutely the worst response. They’re caught in iniquity. It’s heaven or hell. There is no common ground.

  56. Novaseeker says:

    So far almost every “lesbian” I’ve actually had a real conversation with turned out to be more bisexual than homosexual.

    Yes. In my life, I have come across a number of women professionally and personally who self-describe as “lesbian”. When I actually got to know their life histories, it was clear that they were bisexual women who had opted at some point for lesbianism … for various reasons, including being in a bad relationship(s)/marriage(s) (the most common one) with men, feminist indoctrination against men (idea of being able to live a more pure and consistent man-hating man-free life as a lesbian), lack of conventional attractiveness to men and lack of interest in addressing that (often egged on by the feminist indoctrination against men). There were actually only a small percentage (it has to be less than 20% of the self-described lesbians I have met) who have never dated or been in a long term relationship or marriage with a man. They just use the label lesbian once they have decided that they are “done” with men, so as to indicate that they have no further interest in going that route. In addition, I will say that over the course of my life I have come to conclude that the percentage of women who are at least potentially bisexual is very high, while the number of women who are exclusively lesbian from puberty is tiny. Therefore, among women, the “environmental” factors I note above — including relationship history, attractiveness, indoctrination — play a significant role in activating a part of themselves which is, for many (most?) women passively present anyway. The idea that is peddled by Gay, Inc. that most lesians are “born that way”, even if one takes “born” to mean “realized that they were lesbian since puberty”, is complete and utter nonsense and everyone in the lesbian community knows it, too.

    On the male side, most of the guys I have met who have said that they were “gay” are guys who had something “off” in the childhood phase. Whether it was the stereotypical absent father/harridan mother scenario, or the unattractive-as-a-guy scenario (especially seems to impact guys who are smaller, either in height or, especially, in body type — i.e., stereotypically slim/skinny body types), or the “sexual imprinting at a young age” scenario. Contrasting with lesbians, I haven’t met any gay guys who say that they opted to become gay after a marriage failed (although I am sure some cases exist … ). But it has been just as common for one of them to say that they only gradually realized they were gay as they aged into their late teens and 20s as it was to say that they always knew they were gay (i.e., from puberty or earlier) … meaning that for a good slice there is a significant environmental/developmental element involved. It isn’t as far away from “born that way” as is the case for lesbians (where most of them choose at some point to be lesbians or to foreclose men), but it’s still pretty far away.

  57. Opus says:

    For a woman to go Lez is the ultimate in fitness tests. Lesbianism is thus not a deal breaker and has no effect on male desire.

    I recall when I was working that there was one quite likable woman who was very open – perhaps too much so – about having a lesbian lover with whom she lived; that did not stop her one day from coming into my room and raising her bra-less top. On lowering her sweater I suggested that she repeat the performance, which she did. As we say around here, you always know when you are on for it. Women are always kissing and hugging each other; it means nothing.

  58. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm?

    I’ve worked in Hollywood and participated in libertarian politics. So as you can imagine, I’ve known quite a few gays.

    I remember being at a Libertarian Party convention, long ago. About a dozen of us mostly white men were in a hotel room, having a post-convention caucus. At least two of the participants were very flamboyantly LGBTQ.

    One of these men was a tranny. I don’t know if he was pre- or post-op. He was obviously male, with very thin hair, dyed bright red. He appeared to be in his 30s, and balding. He wore female makeup and a little girl’s dress.

    The rest of us were boring, middle-aged white guys. Our chairs were in a circle, and we were discussing arcane inner LP politics. This tranny sat on the floor, cross-legged, like a little girl. As we talked, the tranny got bored and lay across the floor, like a bored little girl. The rest of us tried to be polite, talking politics while ignoring the tranny on the floor, as though nothing were amiss.

  59. Sharkly says:

    Dalrock,
    Did my prior comment on this thread get lost in moderation?
    Or is it that I’m not to explicitly condemn the filthy acts of faggotry that these churchians pave the way for?
    If my comments are not welcomed here, just let me know, I’ll contribute elsewhere.

    [D: I binned it. I can’t tell if you are an intentional troll or just don’t understand what you are doing. Either way, it saves me work to move you from the moderation list to the blacklist, so I’ll take you up on your suggestion.]

  60. Pingback: Hate the Sin, Flatter the Sinner? | The 96th Thesis

  61. h0neyc0mb says:

    [D: I binned it. I can’t tell if you are an intentional troll or just don’t understand what you are doing. Either way, it saves me work to move you from the moderation list to the blacklist, so I’ll take you up on your suggestion.]

    Echo chamber it will be has become .. so shall you reap.

  62. Novaseeker says:

    Echo chamber it will be has become .. so shall you reap.

    Erm … Sharkly has a history here of derailing threads with his — to say the very least — “eccentric” exegesis. Dalrock has a very light hand at moderating, as everyone who reads here knows (it’s one of the main sources of criticism of his blog from his enemies), but some people really do more damage than good — like Artisanal Troll and now Sharkly. If you’re worried about censorship, this isn’t the blog to worry about, to be very frank.

  63. h0neyc0mb says:

    If you’re worried about censorship, this isn’t the blog to worry about, to be very frank.

    If you say so .. IMO you’re wrong .. but again .. that’s just one man and his opinion.

  64. Pingback: How NOT To Get Banned – v5k2c2.com

  65. BillyS says:

    If you say so .. IMO you’re wrong .. but again .. that’s just one man and his opinion.

    So just asserting something makes it true? Right….

  66. seventiesjason says:

    “When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm?”

    I lived twelve years in San Francisco, so it was inpossible to not be impacted by and with that community of people. I wasn’t a Christian at this time.

    I had a gay friend. We both liked cocaine, The Beatles and nice clothing. We didn’t hang out daily or even monthly….but when we did our goal was to “break up a couple”
    His sexuality never really came up. Neither did mine. We just understood each other, and gave each other the basic respect each of us required in a drug fueled friendship…..especially one that was cocaine based. We sometimes went to “gay clubs” because tons of single women went to clubs like that for a “girls night out thing”

    We went to a few shows, mixed bars…….always going out to eat before we partied all night……those late nights and electric nights in San Francisco, especially in the dot.com era really now make me smirk. A few of his friends were convinced I was “closeted gay” and I told them that their bad lisp need “more practice” shock at first by them…tthen high fives and just having fun.

    Every gay man I did meet in this scene was either molested at a young age by a family member (male or female) or had witnessed a traumatic sexual event (porn exposure at a very young age, sexual violence between mom and dad / mom and boyfriend / dad and girlfriend as a boy or early teenager).

    He helped hone my style into a nuance that wasn’t “gay” and I helped him with some social skills at work on how to navigate himself to be taken seriously at work…..and I helped him get a promotion at his job. He also learned from me that a lot of straights had no problem with gays……but didn’t like children exposed to the flamboyance or the seedier sexual activities that many gays wanted in the open. He was one in a million that seemed to understand this……

    In 2001 he got a promotion to move Seattle and took it. Never heard from him since…but our friendship wasn’t based on genuine things like that. It was cocaine, parties, San Francisco nightlife and a few laughs.

  67. seventiesjason says:

    Plenty of “old hag” gay men in San Francisco too. Also, why does being gay give someone to talk about sex nonstop?

  68. Pokesalad says:

    When was the last time any of you folks in these comments actually talked with a gay person and heard their stories hmm?
    Laughing my ass off.

  69. Spike says:

    When reading this, I’m reminded of the first post-sexual revolution reports of children being born out of wedlock in the 1970s.
    The phrase the media used was ”Love Child”. Even as a young person, it always irritated me. It implied that my married parents DIDN’T love me, which they did. It implied that my friends who had married parents, didn’t love their children, when they clearly did.
    The other disgusting trend of Progressives is to link their cause with tradition. Thus women demand to preach, citing their academic credentials and assuring everyone who will listen that not only will they be conservative, but they will out-do conservatives in their conservatism.
    It never lasts. Two sermons later and in comes the Rainbow.

  70. sandi says:

    Dalrock – no matter what anyone else affirms, or does not. Homosexuality does remain a sin.
    Christ taught that homosexuality is “an error”, “unnatural” and a “shameless act” in Romans 1:26-27. As “unnatural” is cited, I would say that He does not create someone in a manner that He will condemn to Hell for eternity. Just isn’t going to happen
    No such thing as a “homosexual orientation”.

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