Warhorn interview: What does a man need to do to live a satisfying and productive life?

For context regarding this series see this post.  You can also see the whole series.

[—————————Begin my email to Nathan—————————]

@Nathan

4. What does a man need to do to live a satisfying and productive life in today’s culture?
5. What does a woman need to do to live a satisfying and productive life in today’s culture?
6. How do these answers relate to God and the Bible?

I’ll also share some thoughts related to your previous question:

What are the problems facing men today?

Answering questions 4 and 5 would take the wisdom of Solomon, which I don’t possess. What we have in the temporal world is vanity compared to the eternal, and yet we should live our lives under the sun with wisdom. Luckily I do have access to Solomon’s wisdom on the subject along with the rest of the Bible.

With the exception of a few men with the gift the Apostle Paul describes in 1 Cor 7, God’s plan is for men to marry. Ecclesiastes tells us to rejoice in our work, our food, our drink, and our wives, as these are our portion in this world (Ecc 9:9, ESV):

Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun.

God’s plan for us hasn’t changed just because we have decided that Christian marriage should only be for the elite. However, there is a common perspective of Christian married men today towards unmarried men which I reject, and it goes something like: “If I had to marry then you should have to marry too!” I think this is precisely backwards. I see marriage not as a punishment or burden, but as something truly wonderful. I understand that I’ve been profoundly fortunate, but I still see it as a gift from God, not a curse*. I want marriage for men not because I object to men remaining single, but because for a Christian man eschewing marriage means foregoing sex, romantic love, and children–for life.

When you think about it that way, what we’ve done to marriage is unconscionable. We took a gift from God, something profoundly beautiful, and mangled it to suit our own perverse tastes. In the process we’ve ground up innocent men, women, and children. Think of the magnitude of the evil that our current and recent generations have done. We inherited a flawed implementation of Christian marriage, where marriage for life was by far the norm and was the recognized family model. We rejected that model and replaced it with the child support model (keeping legal marriage around as a purely ceremonial relic). If our consciences weren’t so thoroughly seared we would be like King Josia in 2 Kings 22:11-13 (ESV):

11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his clothes. 12 And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Micaiah, and Shaphan the secretary, and Asaiah the king’s servant, saying, 13 “Go, inquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found. For great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.”

We’ve weaponized marriage as a tool for women to steal from men. The goals are to both facilitate sexual liberation & single motherhood and to provide a threatpoint to dis-empower husbands (destroy headship) within marriage. Economists Stevenson and Wolfers describe the threatpoint of divorce in their paper Bargaining in the Shadow of the Law: Divorce Laws and Family Distress (emphasis mine).

In the literature on the economics of the family there has been growing consensus on the need to take bargaining and distribution within marriage seriously. Such models of the family rely on a threat point to determine distribution within the household. The switch to a unilateral divorce regime redistributes power in a marriage, giving power to the person who wants out, and reducing the power previously held by the partner interested in preserving the marriage.

But while the goals are feminist goals and the intent is to merely destroy respectable men, the changes are unintentionally cruel to women as well. Offering women cash and prizes to betray their marriage vows is cruelty to them, not kindness. This isn’t just true spiritually. It is true temporally too. All of the women married to loser husbands married the best man they could attract for marriage. The idea that women can (generally) find a better husband once they are older, have a history of divorce, and another man’s children is absurd on the face of it. Real life isn’t like the movies.

The other thing that we’ve done is labor to remove a path to respectability for men. Our culture has a deep seated contempt for married fathers, and Christian culture outdoes secular culture in this regard. This is why Christian movies so regularly express contempt for married men and (especially) married fathers. It is also why Christians have taken a day secular culture set aside to honor fathers and have instead made it into a day to denigrate fathers. The feeble defense for things like the ritual of tearing into fathers in Father’s Day sermons is that the goal is to make terrible fathers better. The lie of this is proven by the lengths Christian films like Courageous go to show that faithful hard working churchgoing fathers are failing miserably. Society is telling young men that married fathers are either villains or buffoons, and modern Christians are all too eager to reinforce this message. Imagine a young man who watches the Christian movie Mom’s Night Out. What kind of man does he want to be? Does he want to be the sexy badboy biker tatoo artist, or the married Christian fathers?

Ironically, the very people we claim to be helping by making a habit of denigrating married fathers are the ones we are harming most. Wives with good husbands can most easily overcome the temptation we dangle to not respect and submit to them. Likewise for children of good fathers. It is the wives and children of marginal and failing fathers who will be most susceptible to the temptation we gleefully and consistently put in front of them.

For women specifically, just as with men I believe that marriage is the blessing God intends for nearly all. One of the cruel things we do to women in this regard is discourage them from seeking a husband when they are young and most attractive. We fear that if they marry young they might submit to their husband. So we urge them to delay marriage while pretending we aren’t sending them out for an extended ride on the cock carousel**. Not only does this make it harder for them to be satisfied later in life in Christian marriage, but it makes it harder for women to understand what their “marriage market value” (MMV) is. In the past when the bulk of women married around the same age, women could much more easily understand what their real options for marriage were. When the clear goal is marriage, women compete for signs of commitment from men who (generally speaking) have good qualities for marriage. This means the AF/BB (sex with alphas, marry a beta) strategy isn’t in play, so the marriage minded woman has access to much more information as her peers start to make their selections. Now we have delayed marriage for women so that AF/BB is the predominant strategy, and we have also greatly spread out the process. This both confuses marriage minded women and greatly dilutes the information they have available.

*I don’t think Paul is contradicting this in 1 Cor 7:6-9. I think he is saying that he views his gift as a different kind of blessing.
**The term is vulgar but it expresses a vulgar truth that no other term quite captures.

[———————————Nathan Replied———————————]

Thanks for continuing to work through my questions. You do a great job of thoroughly articulating your viewpoint. And thank you for providing links for further reading—I’ve followed more than one of them. I don’t think I have many follow-up questions on this particular email. The brunt of our response of course will come in the podcast, so right now I’m just trying to get a clear picture of what you believe.

[——————————My Reply to Nathan——————————]

Here are a couple of old posts that show the cruelty of selling women divorce:

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This entry was posted in Christian Films, Courageous, Marriage, Mom's Night Out, Nathan Alberson, Warhorn Interview, Warhorn Media. Bookmark the permalink.

127 Responses to Warhorn interview: What does a man need to do to live a satisfying and productive life?

  1. Heidi says:

    Excellent entry in this series. You do a nice job showing how both men and women lose out in our current system.

  2. Anonymous Reader says:

    It is likely that Nathan has never encountered some of these ideas, and certain that many of his listeners have not. We’ll see what he does with this information .

    Some may wonder how Dalrock can write such an essay that flows cleanly from point to point. but only if they have not been paying attention for the last 8+ years. This is a summary of multiple years of work. It is not complete, either – yes, lurkers, there’s more that can be said on the topic. This is just the highlights.

    Again, we’ll see what the reaction is.

  3. Et says:

    Nathan: Asks stupid questions 4 and 5 meant to make him look sincere and engaged.
    Dalrock: Long and powerfully responds.
    Nathan: Thanks, I looked at one of your links. Good luck and all that.
    Nathan to himself: I think I conducted the interview in English, but I can’t make heads or tails of what he just said. I’ll need to vet my future subjects better to make sure they don’t actually take the bible seriously- look for people who like to joke about sports.

  4. Damn Crackers says:

    Written almost 400 before the birth of Christ, the Greek playwright Aristophanes wrote “The Assemblywomen.” The plot of the play was that women took over the democratic assembly of Athens, immediately declared a Communistic government of shared property, and the older women declared the beauty of the young women unfair, and insisted they (the old women) had access to the most handsome men in the city.

    Now this play was a satire, Aristophanes intended the “women” to stand in for the effeminate, weak men of the government of Athens.

    My point is that even without looking at Old and New Testament writings, even the noble pagans understood that societies decline when women/weak men lord over the citizens.

    Isaiah 3:12 – Youths oppress My people, and women rule over them. O My people, your guides mislead you; they turn you from your paths.

  5. Damn Crackers says:

    Sorry about the duplicate posting – something is going on with the commenting board that indicates the loss of a post, then it reappears. I don’t know if this is my end or the system.

    About marriage that I’ve already explained, in the West there used to be good girls and bad girls. Good girls were considered good for marriages, since they were more reliable, untouched, and worthy of the raising of a family. Now, these ideas are considered sexist, the true evil plan of the Patriarchy.

    Now all good girls, the daughters of good men, are expected to play the bad girl as well as the good girl before marriage (if she ever gets around to it). Unfortunately, we have forgotten the Law of Sewage (i.e., a drop of wine in sewage leaves you with sewage, and a drop of sewage in wine leaves you with sewage too.)

  6. AnonS says:

    Thank you Dalrock.

    You are one of the only voices in the wilderness mourning the loss of marriage along with young Christian men. Many feel it, but can’t talk about in polite churchian culture; only to be told “of course ‘real men’ exist in a state of emotional torture and impotence for their entire lives (chivalry), what’s wrong with you?”

    Its hard living as a chivalry heretic as it is the majority religion now; and any attacks are seen as attacking the foundation of society.

  7. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Courts might take kids if parents won’t tranny them: http://thefederalist.com/2019/02/12/lgbt-activists-teaching-judges-yank-kids-parents-wont-transgender/?utm_source

    On Thursday, the Health and Human Services committee of the South Dakota House killed a bill that would have protected the right of parents to refuse to consent to medical or psychological treatment for a child suffering from gender dysphoria if the treatment “would induce, confirm, or promote the child’s belief that the child’s sex or gender identity is different from the child’s sex presented at birth.” Proposed House Bill 1205 also provided that “no public authority or official of this state may take any adverse action against a parent for exercising this right.”

    That such a simple affirmation of parental rights could not clear a committee in this solidly red state should terrify parents, as it lays bare transgender activists’ plan: use the government to force parents to affirm a false sex for their child, agree to hormone blockers, and accept a transition to their son or daughter’s preferred gender. If parents refuse? Removal of the child from the family, due to alleged medical neglect.

    “I first began hearing from distraught parents in this situation in 2016 and in 2017, I heard from seven families in as many different states in this situation. In all but one case the child was a 15 year-old girl who never had any sexual identity confusion prior to her parent’s divorce,” Cretella said.

    “The other case involved 4-year-old triplet boys whose mother desperately wanted a girl. The mother was a psychologist herself and had cross-dressed one of the boys for two years, insisting that it was his idea. In each of the seven cases the guardian ad litems and judges removed the right to medical consent and/or custody from the parent who objected to transition with puberty blockers and hormones.”

    We have since moved on to the second wave, Cretella told The Federalist. “The second wave is going on now, with emergency room staff, therapists, or doctors reporting parents to Child Protective Services who refuse to affirm their child’s false gender.”

  8. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Don’t mean to hijack this thread. I was posting this in the previous thread, but it came up in this one, which didn’t exist while I was posting it.

  9. Jane says:

    If for most people, marriage is the path to a satisfying life? How does one have a satisfying life, or at least a modicum of joy and contentment when the marriage goes all wrong?

  10. Dalrock says:

    @Jane

    If for most people, marriage is the path to a satisfying life? How does one have a satisfying life, or at least a modicum of joy and contentment when the marriage goes all wrong?

    Is this a request for practical advice on life, or a challenge to the biblical view that marriage is for life?

  11. There’s just such a wide swathe of “a marriage goes wrong”, that there isn’t an easy answer. Everything from mild anhedonia (we just don’t enjoy each other’s company as much as we used to) or some bickering to substance abuse, physical violence, etc.

    Some marital problems could be solved with just getting extra sleep and eating better, no joke.

    This I do know, both of my parents have told me that because when they got married they were committed to it being for life, no matter what (they were both children of divorce and not fans of the practice), that provided a catalyst for fixing problems since they knew they wouldn’t go away.

  12. Jane says:

    It’s a request for advice. My marriage has gone all wrong and I have become a very discontent, joyless person. And at my better moments, rather than blaming other people for ruining things, it bothers me a little that I am that way and I would sort of like to know how to fix it.

  13. Great responses again, Dalrock.

    I especially like how you touched on how damaging all the changes actually are for women, despite all this progress being paraded around as women having the best possible life and choices ever.

    This was predicted in the manosphere’s magnum opus from 2010:

    https://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html

    “Executive Summary : The Western World has quietly become a civilization that has tainted the interaction between men and women, where the state forcibly transfers resources from men to women creating various perverse incentives for otherwise good women to inflict great harm onto their own families, and where male nature is vilified but female nature is celebrated. This is unfair to both genders, and is a recipe for a rapid civilizational decline and displacement, the costs of which will ultimately be borne by a subsequent generation of innocent women, rather than men, as soon as 2020.”

    But, as we are coming upon the end of these predictions ( with all being true — especially as Rollo keeps pointing out the gender war progressing towards the 2020 election), this final prediction, that the costs will ultimately fall on women, is not discussed as much in the manosphere, as many are, understandably, too damaged by what has happened to them to care.

    I think the real pop of the misandry bubble will be like what Isaiah had written:

    “And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.” 4:3

    When it happens, it will happen fast.

  14. 7817 says:

    This is especially good:

    If our consciences weren’t so thoroughly seared we would be like King Josia in 2 Kings 22:11-13 (ESV)

    We are like the Laodecians, thinking we have made so much progress. “You don’t want to go back to the FIFTIES do you?!”

    As usual, the thing that shocks me the most is that the ostensible conservative christians are just as in denial and stumbling towards the same place as the rest of the feminists.

    It takes a pretty good knock to wake up to realize what is going on, at least it did for me.

  15. Dalrock says:

    @Jane

    It’s a request for advice. My marriage has gone all wrong and I have become a very discontent, joyless person. And at my better moments, rather than blaming other people for ruining things, it bothers me a little that I am that way and I would sort of like to know how to fix it.

    Thanks for the clarification. Understanding the spirit of the question is essential, as I hope is obvious.

    As you note in your original question, given the importance of marriage when it isn’t going well the pain is very real. Unfortunately, in an effort to both get with the times and to prove that we really care, we’ve jettisoned the instructions in the Bible in favor of solutions that we imagine will be more effective. Yet while no answer is guaranteed to produce the practical results you want, the instructions in the Bible are more effective than what is conventional wisdom. Several years back I quoted a study that found that truly difficult marital problems had a way of just solving themselves if the couple decided to honor their vows. This is initially at least counter-intuitive.

    Also, for women the most common complaint is losing feelings of love/attraction for their husband. This can be deceptive because it can manifest in unexpected ways. Romantic love/attraction works as a sort of all purpose lubricant in marriage. Little things that you would barely notice become all but unbearable when the lubricant is gone. Also, when women are starting to lose attraction for their husbands they can perceive this as their husband not loving them. That this isn’t logical doesn’t change the way this feels.

    Our whole marriage counseling industry is centered on the goal of bringing back the spark of romantic love. Marriage counselors are sure that if the husband simply does as his wife demands, her feelings will return. But it doesn’t work, and it actually makes the problem worse. While husbands and wives should follow biblical instructions because they desire to obey God, there are strong practical advantages to headship and submission. Wives who submit to their husbands with fear and reverence are much more likely to regain/increase the lost feeling of sexual attraction/romantic love. When that happens, the general purpose lubricant can work its magic. Also, as 1 Pet 3 tells us, a wife’s best tool for winning over a sinning husband (not to mention a meddlesome mother in law) is to do so without a word, via her submission.

  16. AnonS says:

    It’s a request for advice. My marriage has gone all wrong and I have become a very discontent, joyless person. And at my better moments, rather than blaming other people for ruining things, it bothers me a little that I am that way and I would sort of like to know how to fix it.

    Problems are solved by sub dividing and finding cause and effect. Sometimes this leads to areas that people can not emotionally handle. Anyone that pulls punches and just gives basic answers (what you’ll hear from 99% of pastors) isn’t that equipped or serious about solving problems.

    It requites deep dives into details. If you want to see what that looks like and learn a few things, Stefan Molyneux has hundreds of hours of long conversations with people about personal problems.

    It requires moral judgments about yourself and your parents to answer the “why”. And it requires not going the other extreme and blaming yourself for everything; and accepting that you are a physical creature that can’t mentally overcome everything and that you followed scripts that people in your life gave you without knowing any better.

    You can’t think or willpower past low dopamine and high cortisol, you need new physical habits, diet, and environments.

  17. Christopher Conrad Nystrom says:

    “I’ve followed more than one of them.” – I would hope that if you are really interested in the topic you would be following all of them.

  18. Dalrock says:

    One bit that I left out above. I don’t have them at my fingertips but there have been a number of recent studies that showed how profoundly important thankfulness is to happiness. I don’t recall a scriptural instruction to husbands and wives to be specifically thankful for their spouses, but thankfulness is a general posture we are to take about everything God gives us. So the same would apply to husbands, wives, sons, daughters, parents, etc. It may seem trite, but making a conscious effort to be thankful for what we have is incredibly powerful. Of course the reason we should follow Scripture is to obey God, but there is nothing wrong with appreciating the brilliance of what can seem like trite and unimportant instructions.

  19. OKRickety says:

    Dalrock said: “The idea that women can (generally) find a better husband once they are older, have a history of divorce, and another man’s children is absurd on the face of it. Real life isn’t like the movies.”

    So true, but somehow unseen, even by most who have chosen that path (or maybe they lie because misery loves company).

  20. Random Angeleno says:

    At the end there, Nathan doesn’t seem all that sincere. I’d like to be surprised if his podcast puts Dalrock in a good light, but I am not optimistic. Also I notice that Gudeman has not returned since he commented a few days ago. Not even to ask clarifying questions.

  21. BJ says:

    @Dalrock

    Several weeks ago, I suggested you put forward positive arguments, in addition to your negative critiques. Perhaps this email correspondence was already underway, and you simply didn’t tip your hand. Either way, this is exactly what I was envisioning.

    The string of negative critiques leaves a disjointed picture of your position. The fact that you are putting together a long sustained argument, and piecing together the different ideas into a coherent whole makes this a powerful impact.

    I guess this is a long-winded thank you.

  22. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Random Angeleno

    Dalrock has provided a lot of links that lead to a lot of reading, and at least a couple of those links then go on to more reading. It is a lot for anyone to take in at one time. Many of us came to learn these things over multiple years. Years, not weeks. Certainly not days.

    Let’s be patient and see what the rest of the interview with Nathan looks like just for a start.

  23. Jane says:

    Dalrock
    Thank you for responding to me. However, I am not sure that your advice in your first reply is all that helpful for my situation. Don’t get me wrong, I can see how it would be very helpful for many other women I know. And I don’t think it is wrong. But at this point I am not trying to fix my marriage. It has been over a decade where things have been bad and I don’t have hope that they will ever be better. I just want to know how to have some joy and contentment despite how things are. I think we are supposed to have that even when life is painful. And I know it is possible because my grandfather was a joyful man despite suffering tremendously. But he isn’t alive so I can’t ask him how.
    I don’t think my situation is typical. I know I haven’t acted how most women would act in my situation because there has been tremendous pressure put on me, by women, to act differently. Women think that I should get a divorce or that I should otherwise do something to pressure my husband to act differently. People who are not advocating an immediate divorce give suggestions like stop doing his laundry or stop having sex with him. And the few women who haven’t told me this have told me that the problems were my fault, that if I would just be submissive enough and kind enough things would be better now. But that isn’t true either.
    For a long time, I also thought that if I just was a good enough wife my marriage would be better. And I tried so hard. I don’t think my motivation was quite right. I was trying to be a good wife so that I could have a good marriage instead of trying to be a good wife in order to serve God. But none-the-less I worked very hard at it. But it didn’t make things better. And then one day I realized that I was trying to be a good wife for the wrong reason, and also that being a good wife isn’t a guarantee of a good marriage anyway. And I kind of fell apart. That realization stole away the hope I had for the marriage I wanted. And I did become rather unpleasant for a while. I started yelling and carrying on and nagging. I try not to do that anymore but it was a lot easier not to before I ever got in the habit. So, I could certainly be better at trying to win over my husband without a word. But at the same time, I am certain that being quieter or more submissive wont make me feel loved.
    You see, my husband said something to me not that long ago that changed how I view our whole life together, and as a side note it is probably also the reason I found this blog. He said that he had never planned for his marriage to last. Before we married, he was purposely trying to get women who he thought would be good mothers pregnant, with the plan that he would try to marry the one who did so that he could have all his kids with one woman (I clearly didn’t make the best choices or I wouldn’t have ended up being the pregnant one). He said that he never put any effort into making the marriage work because he expected it to end. And he also didn’t put effort into progressing in his career so that I there wouldn’t be much for me to take from him. He said that sometimes he even actively acted in a way to try to hasten the end he knew was coming. I never knew that all these years, but it makes a lot of things that have happened make more sense.
    Now, I am not trying to detail everything wrong my husband ever did, so I am not going to. But I don’t think after the first little piece of our marriage, I was ever going to feel loved no matter what I did. And even right now today, it isn’t like I can just submit my way into a happy life. Maybe him, telling me what he told me is a sign I should have hope things will eventually be better. But they are not better, and I am not hopeful.
    Perhaps trying to be more thankful would help. I do have trouble seeing anything good in my life. I wasn’t always like that but I have become a rather negative and unthankful person over the years.

  24. Pingback: Warhorn interview: What does a man need to do to live a satisfying and productive life? | Reaction Times

  25. Gaius Gracchus says:

    Wonderful post, a great summary of your great work over the years. I hope Nathan is open-minded enough to see the wisdom you offer.

    @Jane: my marriage was on the rocks for several years. I spent a lot of time on introspection and looking at patterns from my coding childhood. In the end, I realized I had failed my wife by accommodating her. I thought I was being a good husband, while I should have been telling her “no”. It has taken 4 years to recover from the lowest point, but it is much much better.

    And the point of thankfulness is key. Resentment and graditude are opposites. And we can’t be truly happy without graditude.

    You can’t change your husband, but you can change yourself. I would recommend reading thetransformedwife [dot] com. Her postings are excellent.

  26. vfm7916 says:

    75/25 that the podcast will result in negative outcome from Nathan. Some things will be a bridge too far.

  27. Oscar says:

    Is it just me, or is Dalrock winning them over?

  28. Hazelshade says:

    This post, as well as the one about how to “woo” a peasant woman, remind me of a summary Vox Day wrote years ago:

    “The battle of the sexes is over. Alpha males won. Pretty much everyone else lost.”

  29. BJ says:

    @Oscar

    “Is it just me, or is Dalrock winning them over?”

    That is yet to be determined, but the fact of the matter is he is making a very strong case that sympathy for Christian men is lacking in churches. He is simultaneously refuting their positions, doing so while providing a sustained argument for his position.

    They may or may not be changed, but they simply cannot go after him without also looking like they hate the men in their congregation, or like they are advocating some type of elitist marriage-is-only-for-the-Christian-alphas position.

  30. Scott says:

    Iwant marriage for men not because I object to men remaining single, but because for a Christian man eschewing marriage means foregoing sex, romantic love, and children–for life.

    When you think about it that way, what we’ve done to marriage is unconscionable. We took a gift from God, something profoundly beautiful, and mangled it to suit our own perverse tastes. In the process we’ve ground up innocent men, women, and children. Think of the magnitude of the evil that our current and recent generations have done.

    Today Mychael texted me, distraught, because she was doing her hair in a style that I Ike (very straight with a slight curl at the bottom) and accidentally damaged it. She was in tears because to fix it, she would need to cut a couple of inches from then bottom and thought I would surely be disappointed or turned off by it on our valentines date.

    She rushed to her friends house and the two of them worked on it until it was right (a couple inches shorter) and she then sent a flirty/kissy face picture to me, apologizing again for the cutting.

    I was so moved by her desire to look pretty for me after 12 years— so much that she cried over it. I was almost moved to tears myself.

    Can you imagine?

    It causes me great pain knowing that most men will never know love and devotion like that. All because modern women have been conditioned to be stingy with affection for their husbands and make them “earn” it.

    (And then set the bar for earning it so high that the husband still has to pry the love from her)

    I want all men with a heart for marriage to have such love.

  31. GW says:

    I agree with much of this, but point ** is off base.

    First off, the term is overly simplistic and belies some truth behind the delay of female marriage. Certainly not all young females who delay marriage do so because they want to fornicate with multiple men, and in the church this demographic is rarer. Normal women tend to want to get married. The number of loving Christian fathers who are okay with their daughters whoring around is zero. Let’s put aside foolish and worldly talk.

    The concerns fathers have with their daughters marrying (too) young are numerous and really don’t touch upon the issue of submission/headship. Is the relationship solid enough to withstand difficult times? How mature is her husband? Is she mature enough to be making these decisions? Is he capable of providing for her? Will he ever be? Are the families compatible?

    Also, where are these young women who are simultaneously listening to their fathers (by not getting married young) while rebelling against them (sleeping around with numerous boyfriends/flings)?

  32. feeriker says:

    It causes me great pain knowing that most men will never know love and devotion like that. All because modern women have been conditioned to be stingy with affection for their husbands and make them “earn” it.

    (And then set the bar for earning it so high that the husband still has to pry the love from her)

    I want all men with a heart for marriage to have such love.

    Wow, Scott. You are truly blessed.

    It moves me to tears to reflect on the fact that most of us men, Christian or non, have essentially ZE-RO chance of ever experiencing the kind of love you’ve experienced with Mychael, whether we’re married or single.

  33. Heidi says:

    In words, “the number of loving Christian fathers who are okay with their daughters whoring around is zero,” but in practice their encouragement of delaying marriage and tacit acceptance of boyfriends and babies out of wedlock (which I’ve seen plenty of) does promote whoring around–at the very least, it is not disincentivized. Of course, mothers are at least as much to blame, especially when we fail to model being a good wife and mother.

  34. Vektor says:

    “Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun.”

    That was the plan. Well, it was my plan anyway.. So goes the road to hell.

  35. Wraithburn says:

    @GW

    I don’t know where you’ve been all this time, but these Christian fathers are the same men who send their “pearl of great price” daughters off to that institution of learning known as college in droves. They don’t mind her sleeping around, so long as it’s out of sight and there isn’t more than one “boyfriend” to be dated at a time.

  36. Oscar says:

    @ GW

    Certainly not all young females who delay marriage do so because they want to fornicate with multiple men, and in the church this demographic is rarer.

    How rare? Can you quantify?

  37. 7817 says:

    @GW

    not sure if serious…

    This reads like a satire of tradcon objections to the manosphere.

  38. Caspar Reyes says:

    @Dalrock, re Jane:

    A wife has 100% power to improve her marriage, but most wives aren’t really interested in doing so. Any swinging D here could give her good and real advice on how to do it, but women always have an angle. “I want to improve my marriage” is not therefore to be taken at face value, which means that directly addressing the problem as stated will be ignored or argued with.

  39. Mocheirge says:

    @7817

    I interpreted GW’s comment as a naive DODO in denial about his oldest’s “dating” habits.

  40. Gage says:

    @GW

    These fathers are everywhere. Just in my small circle, i can think of 3 dads who have actively discouraged their 19-22 year old children from getting married until they are out of college and established. Good Christian men with good christian kids even. One man, with two daughters aged 20 and 21, is forcing his daughters to go to college and get their degrees. Even though one of them has a great boyfriend and only wants to be a wife and mom. Another man, a relative of mine, has a 20 year old daughter who wants to marry her current boyfriend and stay in her hometown. Her parents are actively discouraging it because they think the fact that she wants to follow the man she plans on marrying is evidence that the young man is holding her back. This girl isnt the brightest, so i am not sure exactly what he is holding her back from, but what she lacks in sheer intellect, she makes up for in her desire to be a good wife to the man she is with.

    so while fathers probably arent directly encouraging promiscuity from their daughters, they dont seem to be discouraging it by encouraging their daughters into the only relationship where sex is biblically allowed. maybe I am way wrong on this, but I always thought one of the primary jobs of us parents was to raise kids and prepare them for marriage and their own family one day.

  41. Dalrock says:

    @BJ

    Several weeks ago, I suggested you put forward positive arguments, in addition to your negative critiques. Perhaps this email correspondence was already underway, and you simply didn’t tip your hand. Either way, this is exactly what I was envisioning.

    The string of negative critiques leaves a disjointed picture of your position. The fact that you are putting together a long sustained argument, and piecing together the different ideas into a coherent whole makes this a powerful impact.

    I guess this is a long-winded thank you.

    Thank you. I think your request predated the interview*, but either way I didn’t make the connection. I wouldn’t have thought this post was in line with what you were asking for. I’m glad it filled the need.

    *For reference Nathan’s first message proposing the interview was on Jan 12. I sent my first response on Jan 15th (Who are you). I sent my initial email in the post above on Jan 25th.

  42. Scott says:

    GW is a cartoonish chivalry dad trying to sound reasonable

  43. Scott says:

    His wife got him a “rules for dating my daughter” T-shirt for Christmas.

  44. Dalrock says:

    Caspar Reyes

    @Dalrock, re Jane:

    A wife has 100% power to improve her marriage, but most wives aren’t really interested in doing so. Any swinging D here could give her good and real advice on how to do it, but women always have an angle. “I want to improve my marriage” is not therefore to be taken at face value, which means that directly addressing the problem as stated will be ignored or argued with.

    It is not uncommon for questions like hers to be passive aggressive challenges to lifetime marriage, which is why I started out by asking her to clarify. At the same time, women have been given such bad advice that a significant number appreciate counter cultural advice. Several years back I used to reply to questions on Yahoo Answers. You would be surprised at the number of women who selected my responses as the most helpful. I think part of this is following conventional wisdom leads to an incredible amount of pain. Women often understand in their gut that they’ve been sold a lie, even if it was a lie they desperately wanted to believe at the time. In this sense we all are like this. We try every way but the right way until the pain is too much. Only then are we often willing to go back and follow the directions.

  45. Paul says:

    @Dalrock When you think about it that way, what we’ve done to marriage is unconscionable.

    Through the years I’ve starting to see this verse quite differently:
    Marriage should be honored by all and the marriage bed kept undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.” (Hb 3:4)

    Usually the focus is on the latter part, but the first part is a command too; all should honor marriage, that is, uphold marriage to its standards. How Christians are guilty too of dishonoring marriage itself through allowing (no-fault) divorce, remarriage, dislodging headship, denying wifely submission, supporting out-of-marriage sexual escapades while denying mutual sexual obligations for husbands and wives, supporting marital rape laws, allowing, even blessing, homosexual relationships, etc. etc.

  46. Dalrock says:

    Here are some example questions on Yahoo Answers where the woman asking the question chose my answer as best answer.

    Not all of my responses were selected as best answer, but most of the time (75%) they were.  This is astounding, especially if you click through and see that I wasn’t sugar coating the truth.

  47. Paul says:

    @Jane

    A lot of men here have gone to troubles in marriage themselves. Many have not succeeded in overcoming them, for different reasons. Others were less unfortunate, and can testify of successful marriages.

    The first thing I would advice is to pray for yourself, your husband, and your marriage, if possible, ask others to pray for the two of you too. The second thing is to decide to follow Christ whatever may happen, which means to love and obey Him. Third, take responsibility for your own behavior; confess your sins, repent of them, and start acting according to God’s commands to Christians in general, and wives specifically.

    As others also mentioned: 1 Peter 3 has advice what to do when your husband does not believe, how much more you should act like that towards a believing husband. Titus 2 has a list of virtues a wife should pursue. Ephesians 5 shows the deep meaning of marriage and how wives should see their own position and role. 1 Corinthians 7 shows the role of sexuality in the marital live, which is of utmost importance.

    Persevere, and change IS possible, but unfortunately, not guaranteed. Let the Lord be always your first priority.

  48. BaboonTycoon says:

    Thank you for this piece, Dalrock. I agree with BJ in that this is the kind of positive, applicable thing I’d like to see from you more often. Then again, I am probably in a different demographic than most of the other commenters here. I am a younger, unmarried man, and I’ve made a lot of poor decisions with my life, so I struggle to establish myself as a man who can support a family. In my experience with this, the members of my church have actually been rather sympathetic to this (and indeed, I am fortunate to have a pastor that laments the loss of arranged marriages and has called out modern women for being domineering in marriage), but their assistance has been too halfhearted for anything to come of it.

    I often wonder whether or not God truly intended for me to be married, as I understand the work necessary to make that happen will be Herculean for someone like me. Nonetheless, I do feel truly blessed, for this path in life has allowed me to gain a unique perspective and avoid the mistakes that the lies I grew up believing would have led me to. Thank you for being a part of that, Dalrock.

  49. SirHamster says:

    Not all of my responses were selected as best answer, but most of the time (75%) they were. This is astounding, especially if you click through and see that I wasn’t sugar coating the truth.

    I just finished reading through the first question and the answers, and I am astounded to find that some of the “divorce him!” responses got 100% downvotes.

    Not even the people saying to divorce voted for each other’s answers. Maybe the system doesn’t allow it, but I still wouldn’t have predicted that result.

    The importance for us to speak truly. The world needs our salt and light.

  50. The Question says:

    “However, there is a common perspective of Christian married men today towards unmarried men which I reject, and it goes something like: “If I had to marry then you should have to marry too!””

    This has been my experience. I’ve remarked to people that they speak of marriage the same way they would about paying taxes. If you aren’t doing it, then they have a reason to resent you, but nobody actually likes doing it.

  51. OKRickety says:

    Oscar,

    “How rare? Can you quantify?”

    “Rarer” is relative. See the following information.

    According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the average age Americans lose their virginities (defined here as vaginal sexual intercourse) is 17.1 for both men and women. The CDC also reports that virgins make up 12.3 percent of females and 14.3 percent of males aged 20 to 24. That number drops below 5 percent for both male and female virgins aged 25 to 29 and goes as low as 0.3 percent for virgins aged 40 to 44.

    In a web-based survey of 2,065 heterosexual non-virgins with a median age in their late 40s, the women reported on average 8.6 lifetime sexual partners. The men claimed 31.9.

    Here are some numbers from the CDC (Fertility, Family Planning, and Reproductive Health of U.S.Women: Data From the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth:

    Table 40. Number of women 15–44 years of age who have had sexual intercourse and percent distribution by type of relationship with
    partner at first intercourse, according to selected characteristics: United States, 2002

                                                   Going
                                                  out once
                  Number in         Just   Just    in a    Going
                  thousands  Total   met  friends  while   steady  Cohabiting  Engaged  Married  Other
                            
    Total . . . . .  54,190  100.0   2.2    8.9     7.2     61.2       2.2       4.5       9.6    3.8
       Age                                                                      
    15–19 years.   .  4,598  100.0   3.3   10.6     6.6     74.3       1.4       1.2       1.1    1.2
    20–24 years.   .  8,530  100.0   2.3    8.8     8.4     64.5       2.5       3.3       6.8    3.5
    25–29 years.   .  8,939  100.0   1.3    8.6     5.5     63.7       2.6       4.0       9.8    4.5
    30–34 years.   . 10,077  100.0   1.8    9.2     7.1     61.6       1.7       4.8       9.1    4.2
    35–39 years.   . 10,686  100.0   3.2   10.0     7.0     56.5       2.9       5.1      11.6    3.4
    40–44 years.   . 11,360  100.0   1.8    7.5     8.0     55.8       1.8       6.2      13.7    4.4

  52. Dale U says:

    @Dalrock
    I don’t recall a scriptural instruction to husbands and wives to be specifically thankful for their spouses, but thankfulness is a general posture we are to take about everything God gives us

    Not completely what you are after, but you could check out Col 3:15-21. 15 to 17 has general instructions, with the command to be thankful 3 times in as many verses. The commands for family ordering and nature immediately follow. Perhaps not much of a stretch to think an attitude of thankfulness is expected to continue into the second paragraph. BUT, the command to be thankful within family is not there. Not trying to add to Scripture.

    making a conscious effort to be thankful for what we have is incredibly powerful
    Absolutely. In my life, I use this tool almost every day. For example, when I start to whine about the tasks at work, I stop and thank God that I have a job at all. When I catch myself thinking of some other woman or complaining about something about my wife, I stop and thank God for the wife I have, and especially that she chooses to be a good wife.
    I can always find something to complain about. And also something for which to be grateful. In which mindset would you rather live? I am happier in the second. And less self-destructive/foolish too.

    @GW
    Is she mature enough to be making these decisions?
    No, and she never will be. See Numbers chapter 30. Teach your daughter to submit, not to “be mature enough to make life-altering decisions”.
    Col 3:18-21 takes about not frustrating your children. Do not ask a 5 year old boy to help out by lifting a 50 kg box. It is unfair to expect the boy to be able to fulfill a man’s role. Same for a woman.

  53. Bee says:

    GW,

    Two surveys of teens included their church attendance. Focusing on the teens attending church showed that lots of them were fornicating before they turned 17. Details here:

  54. Frank K says:

    tacit acceptance of boyfriends and babies out of wedlock

    I think that a lot of trad con men do this because they are surrounded by family who explicitly approve, and if they raise their voice, they will be slammed and ostracized by the extended family. It’s much easier to prove “you’re a man” by being passionate about sportsball or motorcycles or whatever else that is still socially approved.

  55. OKRickety says:

    Here are some more numbers from the CDC (Fertility, Family Planning, and Reproductive Health of U.S.Women: Data From the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth:

    Table 43. Number of unmarried women 15–44 years of age and percent distribution by number of male sexual partners in the 12 months prior to the interview, as reported to the interviewer, according to selected characteristics: United States, 2002

                     Number of partners
                  
           Never
            had
            sex    0     1     2    3    4+
          
    Age                
    15–19  54.3   4.2  27.6   6.2  4.0  3.6
    20–24  17.3   7.1  52.4  14.0  5.6  3.6
    25–29   7.0  13.4  58.5  13.4  5.2  2.6
    30–34   5.0  19.2  57.1  12.2  3.9  2.7
    35–39   4.3  26.6  54.5   9.4  2.5  2.8
    40–44   4.0  31.1  52.6   8.4  2.8  1.2
    All    22.2  13.5  46.9  10.3  4.2  3.0

    Table 44. Number of women 15–44 years of age and percent distribution by number of male sexual partners in lifetime, as reported to the interviewer, according to selected characteristics: United States, 2002

          
             0     1     2     3    4-5   6–9   10+
          
    Age
    15–19  53.2  18.2   6.9   7.4   6.5   5.2   2.6
    20–24  13.3  23.3  13.4  11.0  14.8  13.1  11.0
    25–29   3.4  23.0  13.1  10.4  16.1  15.0  19.1
    30–34   1.9  21.0  10.4  11.2  20.3  15.5  19.6
    35–39   1.5  21.5  11.8   9.3  20.1  15.4  20.3
    40–44   1.3  23.2  10.8   9.3  23.0  15.8  16.7
    Total  12.0  21.7  11.1   9.7  17.0  13.5  15.0

    Looking at Table 43, almost 50% of unmarried women have had sex by age 20 (likely never married). Over 80% have had sex by age 25. Looking at the other tables, I’d say it’s not all that rare for unmarried women to have had multiple partners, and I think it’s likely that includes a large number of Christian  women.

  56. Jake says:

    @dalrock i object to your assertion that these people are well meaning. The best motive i would ascribe to them is apathy; they don’t care what happens to women because their goal is far more important. the most sympathetic motive would be misery loves company. These women don’t want to be alone in their folly. I don’t think there are any well meaning people here pushing for the destruction of family. Jesus said there were two camps, his, and satan’s. Don’t forget who their master is. Nothing is ironic about their plan.

    @anne you are discontent because you are allowing yourself to be. The only external force you can rely on is God. Throw away your checklist, take the hamster out of the wheel, get on your knees and ask for God’s forgiveness. Put your nose in the Book.

    Dalrock has a few fascinating posts about practical advice. One about women being discontent with the amount of time her husband was spending with her, and making herself more pleasant to be around. There are more. Barnhardt has shut up and clean you stupid woman, which i think both women and men should read. I have seen a man who thought he was doing good crush the feelings of his wife and that post helped him see the speck.

    Ultimately, you are responsible for your feelings of discontent. At the very least, be grateful he’s not a cat.

  57. Oscar says:

    @ OKRickety

    “Rarer” is relative.

    Yes. And it can be quantified.

  58. RICanuck says:

    @Jane

    Dalrock and others have given good, well intended advice. I would like to give you specifics. Dalrock has a happy marriage. Mine was on the whole positive for the first 26 years, but the last 12 have been a nightmare. This advice from an unhappy man is what I would like to see from my wife.

    First, make your submission to God. Memorize the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer. In it we pronounce a terrible judgement upon ourselves to be forgiven as we forgive. Ask God for a spirit of forgiveness. You have sinned against your husband, and he against you. Also ask for a spirit of respect, submission and appreciation for your husband.

    Second, be aware that every marriage is under attack by demons. If you are Catholic memorize the Memorare. If you are Protestant memorize Ephesian 6:10 – 17. Whenever you are feeling anger against your husband, or anyone else you are close to repeat the Our Father and your chosen protective prayer.

    Thirdly, submission. Start easy, say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’. Many wives do not. If you need something or some action from your husband, do not confront or demand. Be specific, not “I need more help around the house!”, but “Could you take down the curtains, please?”. Be vulnerable and submissive. Touch him when you ask, lay your head on his chest, kiss his cheek, say “I really want this done, but I just don’t feel up to it right now”. If he does what you ask, sex him up later. The flood of oxytocin to his brain builds bonding and a sense of effort/reward. Don’t promise sex as a trade, just surprise him. It is not a reward, it is a bonding. If you offend him or hurt him say “sorry”. Many women will never apologize.

    Fourth, deal with the hurt you have caused him. The hurt he has caused you must be dealt with on his initiative. If you notice something from the first step that gives you an appreciation, tell him and thank him. Let him know that you feel fortunate. Then after about 6months or more of the practice of submission, one night when you are alone with him, let him sit in his chair, kneel by his feet (direct eye level conversation may be perceived by a man as confrontation), place your hands between his, and ask him if there is anything you have said or done that has caused him a great deal of pain. Many, perhaps most men, if they feel they have permission will unload years of accumulated pain, hurt, humiliation and rage. If he rants keep touching him and bow your head. When he is finished say, “I am sorry, please forgive me”.

    I have done the first two points in my own life, and the marriage has not gotten better but, I feel that God is with me, I have broken out of my pain, and have gotten more involved in parish activities.

    Jane, I wish God’s blessings to you and your husband..

  59. RICanuck says:

    Dalrock, I may have had a comment go to spam.

    Thanks

  60. info says:

    @Bee
    Probably why shotgun weddings existed in history.

    And definitely why sex segregation and the vettings of suitors (men who could make suitable husbands) by fathers. existed too.

    I think what also influences that decision is healthy relations with their fathers.

  61. Dalrock says:

    I just checked the spam and trash bins RICanuck and I’m afraid there aren’t any comments from you to retrieve.

  62. Jane says:

    RICanuk

    Your comment makes me feel very unhappy. I have always tried very hard to be a good wife and my husband has not tried hard to be a good husband. It doesn’t seem fair that I should have to appoligize for hurting him if he isn’t also apologizing to me first. But perhaps you are exposing a serious flaw in me so I guess I should thank you and think very seriously about what you have said.

  63. info says:

    @Jane
    This(1 Peter 3) and prayer. Hope this helps.

  64. Dalrock says:

    @Jane

    Thank you for responding to me. However, I am not sure that your advice in your first reply is all that helpful for my situation. Don’t get me wrong, I can see how it would be very helpful for many other women I know. And I don’t think it is wrong. But at this point I am not trying to fix my marriage. It has been over a decade where things have been bad and I don’t have hope that they will ever be better. I just want to know how to have some joy and contentment despite how things are. I think we are supposed to have that even when life is painful. And I know it is possible because my grandfather was a joyful man despite suffering tremendously. But he isn’t alive so I can’t ask him how.

    I’m very sorry to hear that, but I don’t doubt after reading your comment that it is as you describe it. I think you are on the right path regarding what to do (be clear on why you are submitting and focusing on thankfulness), but I also understand that it is not easy. I will include you and your husband in my prayers.

  65. Where is Nathan? Why doesn’t he post? Its like, he asks questions and reads but then we have no idea if Dalrock’s words are falling on deaf ears? I fear that they are.

  66. King Alfred says:

    “Ironically, the very people we claim to be helping by making a habit of denigrating married fathers are the ones we are harming most. Wives with good husbands can most easily overcome the temptation we dangle to not respect and submit to them.”

    Many ordinary husbands who are keeping their marriage vows but are imperfect find that their marriages suddenly sprout new problems every time Pastor McStudly gives a sermon on marriage. It becomes a situation like making a deal with Darth Vader (“I have altered our deal. Pray I do not alter it further”). If the husband continues to take his wife to listen to Pastor McStudly, he will have an ever increasing list of problems in his marriage. If he stops going because he recognizes that his church hurts his marriage more than it helps, it is all too easy for the wife and the pastor to say, “see, this proves that all those bad things we said about you really are true!” The ordinary husband has no winning moves when the pastor does not support him in his marriage. Under these almost universal conditions in the churches today, no matter what course he takes, the ordinary husband loses.

  67. Gary Eden says:

    I have always tried very hard to be a good wife and my husband has not tried hard to be a good husband. It doesn’t seem fair that I should have to appoligize for hurting him if he isn’t also apologizing to me first.

    Matthew 6:14-15

    Let go of the bitterness (it is toxic to joy) and forgive.

    Ephesians 6:5-8

    It does not matter how your husband reacts to your submissive service if you do so for the Lord.

  68. Anon says:

    Once again, Economics is the field where female knowledge is the furthest behind male knowledge.

    Prager U, normally an outfit desperate to pedestalize women, had an unusual instance of courage and filmed women ON A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS regarding their views on the ‘wage gap’.

    Unsurprisingly, every single woman believed it to some degree.

    When I realized how little women are capable of grasping about economics, I realized how, net-net, higher education for women (at least the taxpayer-funded component of it) is a complete waste.

  69. feeriker says:

    When I realized how little women are capable of grasping about economics, I realized how, net-net, higher education for women (at least the taxpayer-funded component of it) is a complete waste.

    The most horrifying aspect of this is in how estrogen is seeping its way upward into positions of toxic power that will enable it to have a profound and crippling impact on the both the national and global economy. Prime current example: AOC.

  70. feeriker says:

    Where is Nathan? Why doesn’t he post? Its like, he asks questions and reads but then we have no idea if Dalrock’s words are falling on deaf ears? I fear that they are.

    I’m going to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt here. What Dalrock has laid on him in this series of exchanges is tantamount to a consecutive series of red pill suppositories. Painful enough in small doses, but I would imagine quite traumatic as an overdose.

    Give him time. It’s going to take a while for him to absorb and process what is certainly a shock to his system.

  71. Anon says:

    The most horrifying aspect of this is in how estrogen is seeping its way upward into positions of toxic power that will enable it to have a profound and crippling impact on the both the national and global economy. Prime current example: AOC.

    Yes. Look at how insane the current crop is. From newcomers like AOC and Ilhan Omar, to old frauds like Warren, Gillibrand, etc. That any functioning adult would put forth something like the ‘Green New Deal’ with a straight face is astonishing. China must be stunned at how stupid the Democracies of the world have become.

    That said, I am not too worried. As I have stated before, Artificial Intellilgence will find ways to adapt around the femmo-tyrannical lunacy that is rising up.

  72. Pingback: DoW I: Celebrating Hay in a Needle Stack | Things that We have Heard and Known

  73. Gary Eden says:

    Artificial Intellilgence will find ways to adapt around the femmo-tyrannical lunacy that is rising up.

    Or maybe it will find it a useful method for controlling the populous, just as our rulers have.

  74. JRob says:

    Funny how religion is denigrated and called the “opiate of the masses.” Controlling the populace can be done that way or through officially sanctioned vice. Let us eat cake! We’re going to worship something whether we admit it or not.
    #WrathOfAbandonment

  75. feministhater says:

    Thank you for responding to me. However, I am not sure that your advice in your first reply is all that helpful for my situation. Don’t get me wrong, I can see how it would be very helpful for many other women I know. And I don’t think it is wrong. But at this point I am not trying to fix my marriage. It has been over a decade where things have been bad and I don’t have hope that they will ever be better. I just want to know how to have some joy and contentment despite how things are. I think we are supposed to have that even when life is painful. And I know it is possible because my grandfather was a joyful man despite suffering tremendously. But he isn’t alive so I can’t ask him how.

    Oh shit, you just wanted the ‘eat, pray, fuck’ divorce advice instead… lol. Get the fuck outta here, bitch! Go listen to The View or reruns of Oprah, just go the fuck away.

  76. Bee says:

    Info,
    “And definitely why sex segregation and the vettings of suitors (men who could make suitable husbands) by fathers. existed too.”

    You make good points. Most fathers need to be much more involved in guiding their daughters decisions on whom to marry.

  77. Scott says:

    You make good points. Most fathers need to be much more involved in guiding their daughters decisions on whom to marry.

    I don’t think most manosphere/redpill dads have a problem with this in theory.

    However, in order for it to be truly effective the culture around him must be in pretty much lock-step with his authority to do so, and think that its prudent and wise.

    No matter the audience, (secular coworkers, extended family, friends, and even church members) even the slightest, most modest suggestions I have made to encourage kids to VOLUNTARILY incluide their parents input is met with the reasoning.

    “you cant control your children/they are going to do whatever they want/at some point you have to trust their choices/you will alienate them……………….”

    These are the the parents of the kids my kids will be looking at to marry and they have already sabotaged any talk of parents involvement by walking away from this process and making one parent look like the old-fashioned buzzkill

    Just a mild “it makes sense for your extended family to have some input here for all these rational reasons” is met with how who they marry is none of my business.

    And the dads of sons (I have both) who are willing to have their boys go through something like that are only going to do it if the girl has been raised in way that is so foreign and counter cultural that the probability of any particular union be vetted that way is basically zero outside of a religious commune.

    Hence my standing proposition. If I had unlimited funds, I would create one myself. And the first people I would invite to interview would be folks I have meet on these boards.

  78. Charles Martel says:

    Check out this woman out:

    Dalrock’s right about chivalry being at the heart of feminism and leading to women like that. She needs some patriarchy in the worst way.

  79. AnonS says:

    @Jane He said that he never put any effort into making the marriage work because he expected it to end. And he also didn’t put effort into progressing in his career so that I there wouldn’t be much for me to take from him. He said that sometimes he even actively acted in a way to try to hasten the end he knew was coming. I never knew that all these years, but it makes a lot of things that have happened make more sense.

    What in the world was your selection process for a husband and what were your parents doing? Sounds like a foundational value question to ask.

  80. AnonS says:

    @Scott

    Easier to get money on the East Coast (but a swamp for traditional minded people) but the Montana option sounds appealing. But I’m probably in the same boat as Wintery Knight and William Lane Craig in that I haven’t been intellectually or evidentially convinced about certain Orthodox positions even if I could see the psychological benefits.

  81. info says:

    @Bee
    Indeed. Whilst I disagree with arranged marriages as practiced by people historically. The father’s input helps greatly in helping their daughters or even their sons avoid pitfalls in the spouses.

    The mother may even help in spotting dangerous women that may harm their sons.

    If Fathers gave away their daughters in marriage. Why not quality control?

    @Scott
    Good luck in recreating this tradition may you find success. I think marriage would benefit from better quality control most definitely.

  82. BillyS says:

    My bet is that Jane has withdrawn from the marriage, and then blames her husband for every problem that happens. She sounds a lot like my exwife. The only thing that couldn’t work out was her own withdrawal, not anything good or bad I did.

    No one can make a woman be content and help build a marriage. She decides that and too many today undermine rather than build. Then they complain that the husband didn’t do things right.

  83. info says:

    Speaking of this topic. China has this strange phenomenon.:

  84. Heidi says:

    Hi Jane! I can truthfully say that I’ve never regretted apologizing, even when I didn’t get an apology in return. The problem with scorekeeping is that there’s no limit to it, because it’s a mindset that really is antithetical to forgiveness. “I was wrong, but so was he!” is not good enough; you have to say, “I was wrong. What do I need to say and do to show that I am sorry and change my wrong ways?”

    Then you stick to it. When you fail (as you most assuredly will), you go back to God, pray for true contrition again, and rinse and repeat. You can do this even if you expect your husband not to change. I cannot guarantee that it will bring you happiness, but I can tell you that harboring discontent and resentment certainly will not.

    And pray for your husband–not in a passive-aggressive way, such as “Lord, let him be nicer to me,” but for his welfare. Even if it feels awfully artificial at first, keep at it. I did this in high school, weekly praying for some kids who’d thrown rocks at me and spat at me in junior high, and after several months found I was actually sincerely wishing their happiness. (When I returned to school next year, they had become much nicer, incidentally, and I wound up friends with the girl who spat at me.)

    Caveat: My husband is an extraordinary man, and our marriage is a happy one. But looking back through my life, in all sorts of sad situations (dad died young, mother had mental and physical problems, alcoholic older brother who stole from me and threatened Mom) and dealing with all sorts of people, I find that by far the greatest unhappiness I’ve experienced has been due to my own selfishness, pride, and resentment. God has extended his grace to me, as flawed as I am, and He can do the same for you. Good luck.

  85. feeriker says:

    These are the the parents of the kids my kids will be looking at to marry and they have already sabotaged any talk of parents involvement by walking away from this process and making one parent look like the old-fashioned buzzkill

    Just a mild “it makes sense for your extended family to have some input here for all these rational reasons” is met with how who they marry is none of my business.

    Once again, most parents, including Christian ones, see parenting as an onerous chore, a punishment, a prison sentence, a burden to be tolerated for a certain number of years until they’re “free! FREE AT LAST!!” The less responsibility they have to shoulder for anything related to their offspring, the better (hell, they don’t even want to raise them; that’s why daycare is in such demand). Any responsibility for something as long-term and important as whom their children select for spouses is off the table. NO WAY are they touching that.

  86. feeriker says:

    To those responding to Jane, I think we have another case of “nail girl” here.

    Surely if she knew anything about Dalrock and this site before coming here, she knew what kind of advice she was going to get.

  87. Oscar says:

    @ info

    If Fathers gave away their daughters in marriage. Why not quality control?

    Because, even though most weddings still use the wording (“Who gives this woman to be married to this man?”), nobody actually believes it anymore. Heck, most people don’t even believe anymore that it should be one woman and one man.

  88. Junkyard Dawg says:

    Dalrock, I could be wrong and I hope the outcome is more hopeful, however, when I read this line in Nathan’s response to you: “right now I’m just trying to get a clear picture of what you believe,” I suspect that his podcast will not be very favorable and that he is gathering evidence for this purpose. You know the tone of your interaction with Nathan better than anyone else, however, this line stands out for some reason.

  89. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    A second troop claims to be the first all-girl Boy Scout troop: http://us24news.com/um-what-first-all-girl-boy-scout-troop-sworn-in/

    This one is in Arkansas, but I remember a troop in Guam claiming to be the first all-girl Boy Scout troop.

    Aren’t scouts supposed to be hardy and outdoorsy? Check the photo on that article. The two scoutmasters super-sized land whales. And a couple of the girls appear on the way.

  90. Frank K says:

    As I have stated before, Artificial Intellilgence will find ways to adapt around the femmo-tyrannical lunacy that is rising up.

    Didn’t Amazon recently shutdown an AI that was selecting male job candidates over females?

    If this becomes a trend, there will be calls to make AI’s illegal, unless they eliminate male dominated jobs, such as driving trucks, in which case they will be A-OK.

  91. Frank K says:

    Aren’t scouts supposed to be hardy and outdoorsy?

    I’m sure they will earn their basket weaving merit badges while camping in their backyards, waiting for the pizza delivery guy.

  92. Anon says:

    Didn’t Amazon recently shutdown an AI that was selecting male job candidates over females?

    Exactly. They had to take manual action to obstruct an AI that was selecting better candidates. Smaller competitors will not shut down such an AI. Hence, those that can resist the stupidity of complying with ‘feminism’ will surge ahead.

    If the US makes it ‘illegal’, the black market, and countries like China and Singapore, will surpass the US.

  93. Dalrock says:

    @Junkyard Dawg

    Dalrock, I could be wrong and I hope the outcome is more hopeful, however, when I read this line in Nathan’s response to you: “right now I’m just trying to get a clear picture of what you believe,” I suspect that his podcast will not be very favorable and that he is gathering evidence for this purpose. You know the tone of your interaction with Nathan better than anyone else, however, this line stands out for some reason.

    The exchange was cordial, but that doesn’t mean the podcast will be favorable. I’m fine with that.

  94. Frank K says:

    Heck, most people don’t even believe anymore that it should be one woman and one man.

    And it is breathtaking how quickly that transformation has occurred. You used to be a Neanderthal if you expressed that marriage is for life, now you are if you disapprove of sodomy and same sex marriage or transexualism.

    And it won’t be long before nutters like AOC are considered mainstream and normal. We will soon have pederasty shoved down our throats. And watch your taxes soar so as to provide Guaranteed Basic Income to those “unwilling to work” (you don’t really think they’re going to tax the billionaires to pay for that, do you?)

  95. BillyS says:

    Heidi,

    I used to tell my exwife that she needed to pray for me more. She always insisted she did, but it was clear to see those prayers were of the “please change him to be as I want him” manner you mention rather than praying that God would comfort me, work in my heart, etc.

    Her failure to do that was a major factor of her deciding to bail (against God’s clearly expressed will) on our marriage so she could pursue her own life, even continuing to attend a church. Too bad churches fail to confront this attitude, behavior and action.

  96. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    They can tax as many billionaires as they want. That will never be enough money for their grandious control plans. It will ultimately come from the shrinking middle class and below. That is where the money is, so that is who will bear the brunt of their foolishness. And the same ones who will pay the price continue voting for them. Most people are still idiots, unfortunately.

  97. Expat Philo says:

    @Scott

    I think the principle problem with forming a culturally unified community which is inclined to do as we here would like is in the fact that very few of us, if any, HAVE enough money to found one on our own.

  98. David J. says:

    @Jane: Another helpful website would be https://peacefulwife.com/. Best wishes.

  99. Jane says:

    Thank you everyone who responded to me. I genuinely appreciate it. I have been asking different people how to become content and more joyful on and off for a couple years now. Every one I asked kept telling me I couldn’t be happier unless my husband changed, or I divorced or maybe even married someone else. But deep down I know that divorcing wouldn’t make me happy. I wish it would because that would be easy but I know it wouldn’t. And while part of me desperately wants to blame my husband for how I am, I know that isn’t true. There are many things he has done wrong, but I know we are supposed to have contentment and joy no matter our circumstances, so that part can’t be his fault.

    I dont particularly like the person I am right now. When I was a kid my dad used to make me visit this old woman at the nursing home. And she was so joyful and I’ve always wanted to be like her when I get old but I know I won’t be if I don’t learn to be that way now. But no one would tell me how.

    So thank you for telling me something I can try to do to fix the problem. . Based on your collective advice I am going to try to be more thankful and more forgiving and willing to appoligize. I hope it will help.

  100. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    I have the Basketweaving Merit Badge, IIRC. Though I have several more that were more difficult at the time. I am glad to be an Eagle Scout, but they have lost my future support completely.

    I still have my Council Strip and OA Strip collections, but I am not sure what I will end up doing with those. (They are the strips for BSA Councils and Order of the Arrow Lodges. They look neat, but the modern organization committed sepuka (sp?).

  101. Frank K says:

    They can tax as many billionaires as they want. That will never be enough money for their grandious control plans. It will ultimately come from the shrinking middle class and below.

    Anyone here remember the Clinton’s proposal in the 1990’s to ransack 401k’s and IRA’s to pay for spending? Expect that to happen when AOC and her ilk run the country, The justification will be that your nest egg, which you scrimped and saved all your life to build up, means you are “rich”.

  102. Frank K says:

    I think the principle problem with forming a culturally unified community which is inclined to do as we here would like is in the fact that very few of us, if any, HAVE enough money to found one on our own.

    I’m also sure that some progressive minded judge will deem such communities to be “unconstitutional”

  103. BillyS says:

    Jane,

    I wish my exwife had (or would get) your attitude. We would still be married if she had that. I can be dense and I am an imperfect human male, but I cared about her deeply and would do anything Scriptural to make her do well in our marriage. No chance of that now I can see, but I still wish it would happen.

  104. Oscar says:

    @ Anon

    Didn’t Amazon recently shutdown an AI that was selecting male job candidates over females?

    Exactly. They had to take manual action to obstruct an AI that was selecting better candidates. Smaller competitors will not shut down such an AI. Hence, those that can resist the stupidity of complying with ‘feminism’ will surge ahead.

    Uber’s algorithm pays men more than it pays women.

    http://money.com/money/5144247/male-female-drivers-earn/

    According to the paper co-authored by academics working for Uber, Stanford and University of Chicago, some 48% of the gender pay gap is explained by speed alone. Male drivers go an average of 2.2% faster than female ones, which results in higher pay when miles pay better than time.
    …..
    Another 36% of the gap is explained by experience. Women drive much fewer hours per week than men do, so they take longer to learn the tricks of the trade—such, as, for example, canceling rides strategically when a driver senses the ride won’t be worth it for him or the customer may force him or her to wait longer than usual.
    …..
    Where the drivers’ work explains the rest of the gap. Men tend to head to areas where wait times, and the rides themselves, are shorter.

    The author is a woman, and of course, she thinks it’s unfair.

    What we want from a cab ride is to get from A to B and have the fewest negative feelings in the process. The principles on which drivers are paid, however, don’t quite align with this simple goal.

    In other words, women may actually be making less for doing their job better, from a customer’s point of view. We’re told, however, to accept the algorithm that creates the pay gap as neutral. The next step for Uber and other companies that write off pay gaps in favor of men to “gender-based preferences” is to sit down and consider whether the “male” way of doing things is actually better — or maybe the reward system is out of whack.

  105. Frank K says:

    I have the Basketweaving Merit Badge, IIRC

    It’s been a long time, so my memory is fuzzy, but I think I skipped that one.

    I was working on my Life Scout badge when we moved away, and there wasn’t a troop near the new address, so my journey with BSA ended with me being a mere Star Scout.

  106. Expat Philo says:

    I’d rather be a criminal who tried to do something than a free man who ran at the first whiff of opposition. Yes, there will be legal action taken against any such community sooner or later, this is a given, how do we deal with it?

  107. Frank K says:

    If the US makes it ‘illegal’

    I think it’s virtually certain that any AI’s that make impartial choices between men and women, based solely on merit, will be outlawed. There’s a reason Amazon grabbed their resume screening AI and threw it out faster than you can say Duluth. They are terrified of what women will say. And if these sorts of AI’s start popping up, there will be demands by women to ban them, and laws will be passed. You can take that to the bank.

  108. Lost Patrol says:

    This one is in Arkansas, but I remember a troop in Guam claiming to be the first all-girl Boy Scout troop.

    We’ll say they filed simultaneous claims, but Guam “wins” the dubious honor by virtue of location vis the International Date Line.

  109. ray says:

    Michael Riker —

    “And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.” 4:3

    “When it happens, it will happen fast.”

    Yeah, because the King will impose it.

    Isaiah 4 opens with that passage (it is 4:1 and not 4:3) but the temporal context is back at the beginning of Isaiah 2:

    “The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” (Isaiah 2:1-2)

    It says ‘last days”, so Isaiah 4:1 and ‘gender reformation’ occurs AFTER the Lord’s house is established and etc. Is the Lord’s House gonna be established and exalted while satan rules this planet? duh

    So what occurs in Isaiah 4 concerning the restoration of patriarchy, female dependence, and marriage-sanity, does not take place under current conditions, i.e., in this present world guided by satan. Isaiah 4:1 takes place only after great tribulation, war, and the establishment of the King’s Throne in Jerusalem.

    “This [Isaiah 4:1] was predicted in the manosphere’s magnum opus from 2010.”

    Shoulda opened a Bible before gifting the world with that magnificent magnum opus prophecy.

    You folks waiting for the death of the gynarchy, you’re gonna wait vainly, despite the assurances of ‘experts’ like Imran Khan, Rollo, The First Horseman, and whoever else writes these magnum opuses. Rely on your buddies, or the Bible.

  110. feeriker says:

    Aren’t scouts supposed to be hardy and outdoorsy? Check the photo on that article. The two scoutmasters super-sized land whales. And a couple of the girls appear on the way.

    Maybe Troop Baleen will make its first outing into the wild just as hunting season starts and they’ll all be mistaken for bear or moose and shot.

  111. thedeti says:

    This series is a good and useful tool on Dalrock’s posts. It’s Cliff’s Notes on Dalrock.

  112. ray says:

    Dalrock — “It may seem trite, but making a conscious effort to be thankful for what we have is incredibly powerful.”

    Not trite. Very powerful indeed. So crucial, and so overlooked. You want heaven on your side? Be appreciative, humbly and sincerely.

    These days, most of my interactions with Father or Jeshua are brief, expressions of thanks, of gratitude. I rarely ask for things, because I’m not wise enough to know the full consequences of getting them. But loving them up for pouring out grace on me entails neither risk nor cost.

    Papa loves to be acknowledged via simple thanks. Little different really than any dad enjoying the gratitude of his wife and children. My dad didn’t get near enough of that, but he will later.

    The feminist nations of the West clearly are characterized by people — females especially — who have been spoiled, empowered, and feted for so long, that any expression of gratitude deeply grates on them. They feel it lowers their status to express gratitude to mere males, after their cultures assures them day after day that men are worthless, are perpetrators, and deserve nothing, certainly not thanks.

    That is gonna change but this place will go through hell first.

  113. ray says:

    Scott at 3:18 —

    Good for you. And your wife.

    Tell Papa how you feel about Him blessing you like that.

  114. BillyS says:

    Feeriker,

    The leaders are too big to be confused with a bear or moose….

    Frank,

    Anon and other AI fans fail to realize that it can be trained to give desired outcomes. Nothing will magically save us from this situation. Logical thinking is already rejected, so AI will be adjusted to give the optimal outcome WITHIN the desired direction, not what really is best.

    Does anyone really think that an optimal vehicle AI that ran people over would ever get improved? Same idea with women, except that the latter only has political reasons to adjust it. But adjust they will!

  115. Random Angeleno says:

    @ray
    There was the time over 20 years ago that I prayed for a wife and got my ex. Since divorcing her, I’ve been leery of praying for something like that since. Along the lines of be careful what you ask for, you might get it with its unintended consequences.

    But it’s not so hard to be grateful to the Lord for what I do have, to be grateful that my problems are typically first world problems, to be grateful that I grew up with a mother and father, to be grateful that I have a house I can easily afford, to be grateful for the close friends I have, to be grateful for the meals I can make for myself, etc.

  116. Paul says:

    AI is not a magical entity; you get out what you first have put in to train it. And actually what is called AI is typically artificial neural networks, which were already used in the 90s. It’s only that we now have more data to act upon, as well as faster computers, that gives the additional power.

  117. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Jane
    Consider reading Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.

    the tl;dr
    “You cannot always control what happens to you, but you can control how you react.”

    Many people do not want to understand that.

  118. Anonymous Reader says:

    Right now the most effective users of pattern recognizers aka “AI” are the Chinese security forces. Facial recognition is already in use to control the Uighars of western China, for example, and the “social credit” system has to rely on AI systems. “Social credit” is being used to control dissidents in various ways, some subtle (no access to high speed trains or airliners, for example) and some obvious (job limitations, housing limitations).

    The reality isn’t living up to the “god in a box” hype some indulge in.

  119. ray says:

    Random Angelino —

    That sounds like a pretty good spread to me, that God laid out for you. Most of the world would be THRILLED to have such blessings. Many in America, likewise.

    I’m sorry it didn’t work out with your marriage, but clearly you have not stopped learning, and you still have proper relationship with God, as your gratitude suggests. So I’d say you came out ahead. Not unscathed, just ahead.

  120. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Random Angeleno

    That’s a top notch policy you have. When I finally learned to be grateful, it improved my life more than any other action I’ve taken.

  121. Random Angeleno says:

    Not unscathed, that is for sure. But I have walked through some very poor neighborhoods in third world countries. After that experience, I vowed I would never complain again about my accommodations within the US, because almost anything I might have to put up with when away from home would still better than those 3rd world slums. That’s part of my gratitude. Does it help me get women? No it doesn’t, I can’t really express that in front of them without appearing too beta, but no one can take my Catholicism and my gratitude from me.

    “You cannot always control what happens to you, but you can control how you react.” Amen

  122. Feeriker

    I’m going to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt here. What Dalrock has laid on him in this series of exchanges is tantamount to a consecutive series of red pill suppositories. Painful enough in small doses, but I would imagine quite traumatic as an overdose.

    Give him time. It’s going to take a while for him to absorb and process what is certainly a shock to his system.

    I hope you are right. He probably is overdosed at the moment.

  123. Sharkly says:

    Jane,

    I know this is late, but, I’d like to do unto others as I’d have them do for me. So I will attempt to give you Godly advice, like I wish others would give to my own wife.
    Our lives are a test. The entrance evaluation for God’s eternal kingdom.
    Others here have recommended that you read 1Peter 3, I recommend you do that too, but starting at 1 Peter 2:13 – 3:18. The Lord calls Christians to submit to their authorities, and even suffer, like subjects to an emperor, slaves to an abusive master, like Jesus suffered for us, to the point of death, and likewise wives are to be subject to their own husbands even if they do not obey the word. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

    It doesn’t seem fair that I should have to apologize for hurting him if he isn’t also apologizing to me first.

    You’re right, it is not fair, and if all that you have said is true, then you truly have my sympathy. However, that is still excellent advice that you were given.

    But at this point I am not trying to fix my marriage. … He said that he never put any effort into making the marriage work because he expected it to end.

    If I read that correctly, you are not happy that your husband has not put the work into the marriage, that you feel he should have, to make it work, but you are now claiming to be just like him in that regard. At least one of you will have to start the work to fix your marriage, and both of you have to do your part for it to work well. I can’t guarantee he will ever do his part if you start trying to do your part well, but that’s the only thing you should do. The advice to divorce/threaten/punish your husband is not of Christ.

    Ephesian 5:22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

    There are many things he has done wrong, but I know we are supposed to have contentment and joy no matter our circumstances, so that part can’t be his fault.

    Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

    There are appropriate times to be sorrowful and feel broken, and if things really are as you perceive them to be, it is not wrong for you to sometimes be poor in spirit or mournful about it, just don’t stay depressed. There is an appointed time for everything:
    Ecclesiastes 3:4 A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.

    If what you say is all true, then it is likely your husband is not a Christ follower. However, unbelieving husbands are to be won over when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
    7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
    8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    If you are not already, I would try praying for your marriage with your head covered. It is a pure sign of subjection that God commands. Perhaps God will honor your prayer when you honor Him, by following His protocol. If your husband asks why you are praying with a veil over your head, you can explain to him that the Bible teaches that men are created in God’s image, and as such you owe him great reverence,(Ephesians 5:33) like Sarah who called her husband “lord”. However you as a woman are the image of Christ’s church, and are to submit to your husband in all things and come before God veiled in humility. If your husband is truly not interested in following Christ, that uncharacteristic change of behavior and explanation given with humility, sincerity, admiration and respect for his being uniquely in the image of God, may just pique his interest in what you’ve learned about God. What man wouldn’t be a little curious about a religion that promises him the place of honor, authority, and Godlike glory in his home. You through your Biblical behavior may be able to win him over to Christ. And even if you don’t, God will reward you for your effort to follow Him.

    Fear God, and repent of all disobedience. Do the works of faith, unto salvation. Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
    Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Philippians 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Here is your assignment Jane: Go forward bravely in accordance with your repentance. Go where your husband will see you with your Bible, have 1 Corinthians 11:3-9 bookmarked. Kneel and pray silently in his sight, humbly with your head veiled. Do this daily. He will surely ask you about it. Tell him that you are trying to be obedient to 1 Corinthians 11, where the Bible tells you to pray with your head covered, because you are not in the image and glory of God like he is. Be sure to take his hand and look at him admiringly as you tell him this. Ask him very respectfully and politely if you can get his opinion on the passage. Read him verses 3-9 to him, if he will allow you to. Then read verse 7 again, and tell him softly while looking admiringly at him, that you believe he is made in the image and glory of God, then ask him if you can be his glory, and say you really really want to live out that part.

    Report back to us, how he responds, on whatever thread here is the most recent then. I will pray for your efforts.

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