Warhorn interview: Define red pill, Game, and MGTOW.

For context regarding this series see this post.  You can also see the whole series.

[—————————Begin my email to Nathan—————————]

@Nathan

7. Define red pill, Game, and MGTOW. How do these things relate to your work? Or do they? What do people need to understand about them? What label would you give yourself?

Red pill is a metaphor from The Matrix, and represents a conscious choice to reject lies that we have accepted without even knowing we had accepted them. As you may already know I’m not really a fan of the metaphor. One of the problems with the term is it is applied across divergent perspectives. The 2017 documentary The Red Pill for example represented the Mens Rights Activist (MRA) perspective, which (probably oversimplifying) is a push to make feminists live up to the stated ideals of feminism (true equality). Another group is the MGTOWs (Men Going Their Own Way). From what I’ve seen MGTOWs argue passionately amongst themselves about what this really means, with one of the arguments being if married MGTOWs are true MGTOWs. As the argument goes, who is to tell a man if he really is going his own way? I won’t try to resolve that argument, as I’m not a stakeholder.

The label I would apply to myself is Unchivalrous Christian, and I have a post in the works on this [since published]. Nearly all conservative Christians would I believe consider this a contradiction in terms, and this is the real problem with chivalry. It is a parody of Christianity that was eventually accepted as if it were the real deal. When I first started writing I mistakenly believed that what we call chivalry started off noble and was perverted in or around the 20th century. But the more I have looked at it the more obvious it became that it was perversion from the beginning.

I would define Game as a form of applied psychology, with the primary application being seduction (specifically a man seducing a woman)*. Game is profoundly disruptive because not only are men highly motivated to be sexually successful to satisfy sexual desire, but as a society we equate the ability to attract/seduce women with virtue in men. And it isn’t just secular culture that makes this equation. If anything, Christians are worse in this regard. Women’s arousal is seen as anything from a holy sanctifying force needed to purify marital sex to the very words of God by modern Christians. This near universal belief that women’s sexual desires point to male virtue is rooted in chivalry, which explains why Christians have this bug the worst of all. It also explains why Game is such a threat to our values.

There is another group you didn’t mention that is often called red pill, and that is the pickup artists. Their focus is seduction purely for the sake of sexual success. They are by and large the ones who discovered/developed/spread Game, for obvious reasons. One way to look at it is that chivalry is both a system of moral values and a form of Game (set of tools to seduce women). In both regards it is false. Pickup artists by and large aren’t interested in the moral question and reject chivalry because it isn’t an effective way to seduce women (it is an attraction killer). If it worked as advertised, they would happily employ it. My rejection of chivalry on the other hand is focused on the fact that it is a parody of Christianity, a false religion. I would reject it even if it did work.

*The one true definition of Game is a matter of enduring passionate disagreement in the men’s sphere, along with whether it works, and if it works, whether it can be learned/taught.

I’ll stop here for now. I’ve kept this high level without quotes or links, but I’m sure you will have questions and/or challenges. I don’t want to try to anticipate them all and overwhelm you with unrequested details/evidence/clarification.

[———————————Nathan Replied———————————]

Is Game good or bad or just an observation of how things work, whether we want them to work that way or not? How is it connected to biblical ethics, if at all?

[——————————My Reply to Nathan——————————]

Game is knowledge, but potentially dangerous knowledge. So it depends on who you are and how/why you are using it. As I noted above, the serious practitioners and teachers of Game are using it for “pickup”, so the moral problem there is obvious. And there is also the problem of temptation, not unlike meat sacrificed to idols.

But Game also has value within marriage, especially since we have decided that romantic love is the place for sex and marriage, instead of marriage being the place for sex and romantic love. I can cite many more examples, but consider the movie Fireproof. The scene that sets up the conflict is when Caleb makes a fist and warns the man his wife is starting an affair with that he is going to fight him for his wife’s heart. This conflict persists until Catherine finally realizes she (romantically) loves Caleb, and not the doctor. In the movie her romantic love suddenly returned because Caleb had submitted to her in all things and outspent the doctor on items she wanted for her mother (winning her over without a word). Game teaches what the Love Dare sets out to teach; how to generate romantic love from your wife. If you think that romantic love is a good thing in marriage (which I do), then a husband using Game can certainly use it for good.

I don’t write a lot about Game itself, but I have written a number of posts exploring the morality of Game within marriage. I’m probably missing some but these are at least a start:

  1. She felt unloved.
  2. Headship Game.
  3. Radio Silence and Dread.
  4. Slow your roll
  5. Is fear of women the beginning of wisdom?

One thing I think we need to be very careful of is not to try to create a theology of Game (intentionally or not). This would be replicating what we did with chivalry. The Bible doesn’t tell us to Game our wives, just like it doesn’t tell us to buy them flowers and propose on one knee or speak their love language. The Bible also needs to be the lens we view Game through, not the other way around. If we are clear on that, however, Game can make it easier to stop rejecting what the Bible plainly tells us. We reject the bulk of what the NT teaches us about men, women, and marriage because it offends our primary religion (chivalry). If Game helps us recognize the error of worshiping chivalry then it is beneficial, but we shouldn’t then make the same mistake and confuse Game for Christianity. Wives should submit to their husbands in fear and reverence not because it generates “tingles” (sexual attraction), but because this is what the Bible tells us. Husbands should see themselves as the head not because this makes them sexy, but because it is what the Bible tells us. And if someone outright rejects Game but chooses to follow biblical teaching on marriage anyway, they are doing the right thing for the right reason and any disagreement on Game is akin to two Christians disagreeing about the proper way to forecast the weather.

[———————————Nathan Replied———————————]

My elves and me will have to read the links for further elucidation, but I don’t think I have further questions on the topic just yet.

[——————————My Reply to Nathan——————————]

Ha! My apologies for burdening your elves with what must feel like a homework assignment. This is a very important subject, and I have tried to treat it with the care it deserves. If it helps, you can just skim the first one, skip #3 and only read the first half of #4. #2 and 5 are probably most relevant, but #1 covers my own experience so I think it will be of interest as well.

[———————————Nathan Replied———————————]

Cool, that’s helpful. 1 sounds interesting to me …

[——————————My Reply to Nathan——————————]

One thing I want to add regarding Game is that while I generally agree with Heartiste’s definition of Alpha/Beta, etc, (language warning) I disagree with the common acceptance that Alpha is good and Beta is bad. Heartiste may mock Betas (especially lesser Betas) for being sexual losers, but he understands what nearly all moderns fail to grasp; being sexy isn’t a sign of virtue in a man. Betas are careful and loyal and this makes them boring and less sexy than exciting badboys. Marriage is fundamentally Beta, it is a public and legal declaration of “oneitis”. I write this as perhaps the men’s sphere’s only self identified Beta.

I am seeing Christians outside the men’s sphere use the term Alpha to represent good husbands, and Betas to represent losers. This is an anti marriage perspective. The allure here is that for decades conservative Christians have responded to feminist rebellion by declaring that if men were good enough, women wouldn’t be tempted to rebel. The implied solution is that we can create an elite squad of crack husbands who will be so irresistible that their wives won’t rebel. This has a number of glaring problems. One is that if we say only elite men are fit for Christian marriage, we are saying the same for women. The other is that the way you create a crack squad of anything is by ruthlessly cutting out the men who can’t hack it. How do you weed out the loser husbands who somehow made it into the program of Christian marriage? You wash them out via the divorce courts. And in fact this is exactly what we have embraced, without so much as a “sorry, sucks to be you” to the children who will thereby grow up without their father in the home.

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156 Responses to Warhorn interview: Define red pill, Game, and MGTOW.

  1. 7817 says:

    How do you weed out the loser husbands who somehow made it into the program of Christian marriage? You wash them out via the divorce courts. And in fact this is exactly what we have embraced, without so much as a “sorry, sucks to be you” to the children who will thereby grow up without their father in the home.

    Exactly. Christian alpha chest thumping is no more productive than any other alpha chest thumping, if it means being the only real man in the room worthy of not getting divorced, and everyone else can go pay
    child support. And this is everywhere, even in some of the most traditional/conservative/whatever christian groups.

    Every man should be the alpha WITHIN HIS HOME. Outside of that, sure, be challenging and be challenged to be better at being a man, but cutting the ground from under the feet of weak christian men instead of strengthening them is sin.

  2. Otto says:

    If surveys showing women consider 80% of men below average are true, then the idea that “we can create an elite squad of crack husbands who will be so irresistible that their wives won’t rebel” is preposterous.

  3. Dalrock says:

    @Otto

    If surveys showing women consider 80% of men below average are true, then the idea that “we can create an elite squad of crack husbands who will be so irresistible that their wives won’t rebel” is preposterous.

    Right. But this also shows why the idea is so tempting. Not only can Christians avoid what is difficult and uncomfortable, but they are proposing exactly what the women who have unrealistic expectations are demanding. She just wants the man God has in mind for her, a super alpha who commits, a man who makes great money but always has time for her and does the housework. Is that too much to ask for a Daughter of the King, a pearl of great price?

  4. Jesus Rodriguez de la Torre says:

    Game on both sides may be promoted by cats: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2526142/
    It may be part of the survival strategy of cats to cause spinsters and pick up artists.
    See my post on the valentine’s day previous Dalrock.
    OK, let’s see how far we can push this crazy idea before someone throws a BS flag on the field…

  5. princeasbel says:

    Now these sound like legitimate interview questions. I’ll give Mr. Nathan props for not dismissing you thus far as some bitter, pessimistic red-piller of the man-o-sphere. Bnonn and Foster have, but not him… So far. Perhaps having your email exchange public is helping him be more careful. Maybe Nathan is aware that there are a lot of eyes on your discussion, and so he’s more motivated to be more professional and laid back. I’m just speculating, of course.

  6. Scott says:

    I write this as perhaps the men’s sphere’s only self identified Beta.

    If it matters, although I have my problems with the model, if I apply it to myself I cannot assign any higher rank than “greater beta.”

    I treat my wife like she’s the only woman on earth and as you point out, there is no “alpha” way to do that.

  7. Bruce says:

    Dalrock,
    Do you have a definition of “alpha, beta, etc.?”
    I dislike the term because to me it means the dominance/submissiveness aspect of personality type and many Cads (some I’m related to) don’t have a dominant personality type. There may be correlation e.g. dominant types are more successful on average being Cads but it’s not the same thing.
    Also, you can’t change your basic personality type all that much. You can fake it to a certain degree or try things that build your confidence but there’s limitations.

  8. Swanny River says:

    Prince,
    I see these questions as better too, but for me there is something that still seems disingenuous about them, or him. Further this goes, the more I hope Dalrock cuts his answers short. Maybe Nathan is a typical media guy and not deep, but always working with images and making “big moments.” If so, maybe that is why I don’t trust him or agree with you Prince A.

  9. seventiesjason says:

    “a crack squad of elite husbands”

    Welcome to this forum

  10. Wraithburn says:

    @Bruce

    I prefer Vox Day’s hierarchy as it is a larger gradient. It is also useful for identifying that each “type” as it were comes with it’s own issues. Most the men in the world are Delta, happy to work quietly as part of a team.

    One of the main problems our society in the marriage market has currently is that it is not built for deltas. Systemically this pushes most the male population into limbo. The church just makes it worse by demanding these deltas suddenly transform into alphas. It won’t ever happen and we shoot the losers with divorce to incentivize the survivors.

    Another important point about these types of categories is that they are based around sexual selection. It does not say too much about a man beyond whether he is attractive to women. We’ve substituted this in as a proxy for “virtue”, with lines like Wilson’s aroma bit.

  11. Paul says:

    Well done, Dalrock!

    I think this interview serves as a great overview not only of your position, but as an overview of where many who are regular readers or commenters have arrived at themselves (upon carefully considering arguments of course).

    As for your conclusion regarding ‘game’, ‘red pill’, etc. I can only concur; I arrived at the same conclusion quickly after discovering the man-o-sphere: psychology or ‘evolution biology’ insights cannot be the leading driving force, instead Christians should focus on understanding God’s (revealed) will and follow Christ.

    The difficulty with the latter as you have exposed countless times, is the difference of opinion among Christians about proper exegesis on many topics. I’ve made it my personal goal to significantly contribute to that discussion, as it serves both as a personal guideline, as well as being helpful in supporting others.

  12. Birchtree says:

    I do not know if you are familiar with Vox Day’s extended socio-sexual hiearchy, but I find it far more useful than the overly simplified dichotomy that is common in the world today. I reccomend that those unfamiliar with it take a look:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html?m=1

  13. 7817 says:

    @Paul

    Problem is, church people right now generally don’t want to accept the reality of the fallen world. That is precisely the value of the insights that people like Rollo attribute to evolutionary or behavioral psychology. Now, where they say these insights come from doesn’t matter to me very much, because they accord with the reality I see, and the Bible describes it as the world being fallen.

    In my view, this is why people like Bnonn miss the point: they see everything only in terms of morals, and don’t also accept that everyone is fallen. The answer to a lot of questions is “Yes! Of course people do horrible things, theg don’t have God.” But we are all that way, we are all fallen people, and understanding that the world doesn’t work the way it should is part of basic wisdom. Some people call this the red pill and say it is wicked to know or accept. I say it lines up with the Bible: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    It’s a great pity that men of the world understand and can face the truth of the fall in how it shows in daily life better than church leaders. And I think Dalrock is right, in that chivalry has placed blinders over many men’s eyes.

  14. Gunner Q says:

    “Another group is the MGTOWs (Men Going Their Own Way). From what I’ve seen MGTOWs argue passionately amongst themselves about what this really means, with one of the arguments being if married MGTOWs are true MGTOWs. As the argument goes, who is to tell a man if he really is going his own way?”

    MGTOW is the conscious rejection/avoidance of society in general and women in particular. There’s various levels of it–aware, minimalist, monk, ghost–but the debates have been mostly settled AFAIK.

    Married men aren’t considered MGTOW because their marital duties don’t allow disengagement with society/women. They can still be allies who understand the situation but MGTOW is meaningless if it’s “men who make their own decisions and follow their chosen path”. That’s everybody.

  15. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock

    How do you weed out the loser husbands who somehow made it into the program of Christian marriage? You wash them out via the divorce courts. And in fact this is exactly what we have embraced, without so much as a “sorry, sucks to be you” to the children who will thereby grow up without their father in the home.

    I’ve noticed that “sucks to be you” is the go-to response for a certain group of churchgoing people in a variety of situations. Can’t seem to find it in the Bible no matter what search tool I use. Must be using defective tools, surely…

  16. 7817 says:

    MGTOW is meaningless if it’s “men who make their own decisions and follow their chosen path”. That’s everybody.

    I hear you man, but disagree. Men can go their own way just by not following the feminine imperative, and that’s a pretty tall order in tbis society. That may or may not make them MGTOW but it is a pretty basic part of manhood.

  17. Anonymous Reader says:

    7817
    Problem is, church people right now generally don’t want to accept the reality of the fallen world.

    This. Too many churchgoing people cannot tell the difference between a statement that is descriptive such as “The tire is flat” and a proscriptive statement such as “The tire should be flat”. Describing women as they actually are somehow becomes a guideline in their ears. “Women are sexual creatures” mutates into something like “Women should be sex toys for bad boys”.

    It’s strange. I sometimes wonder if any of these men have ever had a flat tire on a vehicle, or have ever encountered someone else with a flat tire who clearly needed help.

    When a tire is flat, it is flat. Sure, that may be unfair, but it’s still flat. No amount of arguing along the lines of “Well, that tire should be full of air!” is going to repair and inflate it. The tire is flat. Maybe it sucks to be that tire, or the driver of that car, but it is still flat. Pray all you want, the tire is still flat. Read the Bible to the tire for an hour, it is still flat. Something must be done by someone who knows about flat tires, because the tire is flat, no matter if it ought to be full of air, like it or don’t like it. That’s reality.

    Perhaps these are the men who call a road service, then wait for a time to have some other man change their flat tire? That would explain some things.

  18. AnonS says:

    Marriage worked in the environment where women had to face reality (no government water pump) and religion granted the average honorable (boring) man status.

    All it takes is 60 years for people to assume the new normal and churches just go along with the flow without thinking. In the new environment there is no need for women to every face reality (they just get to enjoy alcohol and anti-depressants) and there is no need for boring guys.

    “What’s wrong with you all? Why aren’t you all lead pastors like me?”

  19. I don’t think the majority of MGTOWs are so much “avoiding society” as much as they are navigating through it very, very differently from the average clueless, blue-pill Joes out there, i.e. the other 85% of men.

    Mgtows are those guys who consciously decide not to every get married, never to cohabitate with women, and to more generally engage with women as little as possible socially and at work, and otherwise only when necessary.
    Now, some of them will spin plates or “pump and dump” per the vernacular of our times.
    The smart ones wear condoms and spend the $900 to $1800 on a vasectomy as well.

    The reasons for Mgtow are abundantly clear to any thinking person. Even women now gradually are starting to understand it because, well, they have sons or brothers, even though the rhetoric of Mgtow tends to sound misogynistic to the female ear (e.g. women don’t really love men, no romance without finance, hypergamy makes women do “evil” things, etc.)

    Thing is, no one that I know of has ever been able to persuasively argue against the Mgtow decision without hurling ad hominems, shaming words or insults at them, which of course does not a cogent argument make. The most important criticism I have heard comes from Rollo Tomassi, when he merely points out that even Mgtow men cannot avoid or escape the male “burden of performance”. I think this is true – education, military, workplace, friendships, etc.

    Critics of Mgtow tend to apply the fear tactics in their argumentation. What will happen to the protection, provision, moral good or well-being of society if too many good men instead decide to take a permanent vacation?

    Regardless, I think Mgtow is the correct mentality for men navigating the current putrid waters of feminism, which now pervades and dominates every face of a young man’s life. Most of this misandry crammed into him while he is utterly defenseless by his own mother or his Church pastor or Sunday school teachers.

  20. Cane Caldo says:

    @AnonS

    religion granted the average honorable (boring) man status.

    Or at the very least didn’t undercut him. I think a lot of the status was mostly shown and enforced by life; religious or otherwise. The ordering of man-over-woman relations is evident in the natural world according to St. Paul (“Has nature not taught you…?”)

    Feminism was a reaction to Chivalry, and Game is a reaction to both. Neither would be very useful outside a culture of chivalry. I’ve heard too many sailors and soldiers tell stories that–when they go overseas–they are not seen as nice-guy chumps like they are at home, but men worth having because of what is, to us, “Beta”.

  21. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I am seeing Christians outside the men’s sphere use the term Alpha to represent good husbands, and Betas to represent losers.

    I walked by a local Trinity Baptist Church and saw registration tables for their Alpha course. I didn’t ask about it, but doing some googling, I found this: https://tbcoasishouse.com/event/alpha-course/2017-10-18/

    It’s another Trinity Baptist Church, not the one in my area. There Alpha courses seem to be a thing at every TBC. I don’t think they use “Alpha” in the manosphere sense, but it’s interesting that they’re using the term.

  22. citizen1 says:

    “If surveys showing women consider 80% of men below average are true, then the idea that “we can create an elite squad of crack husbands who will be so irresistible that their wives won’t rebel” is preposterous.”

    Square this with the data that says … genetically, 80% of women have babies. 40% of men father babies. Looks like there is crack squad out there squashing the rebellion.

  23. drifter says:

    “…Why aren’t you all lead pastors like me?”
    Don’t you mean servant lead pastors?

  24. Otto says:

    @constrainedlocus said: “I don’t think the majority of MGTOWs are so much “avoiding society” as much as they are navigating through it very, very differently from the average clueless, blue-pill Joes out there, i.e. the other 85% of men.”

    I think that’s a good umbrella definition of MGTOW.

    “Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.” – The Road Not Taken, Robert Frost

    MGTOW is less about what men are choosing to do, and more about what they are NOT choosing to do. They are not choosing to take the standard path through life that most men are expected to take.

    And when you don’t take the standard path, there is a plethora of alternatives–all very different. You can’t nail it down and say MGTOW are doing one thing instead, because they aren’t.

  25. Gunner Q says:

    Cane Caldo @ 11:10 am:
    “Sailors and soldiers … men worth having because of what is, to us, “Beta”.”

    That’s the tyranny of the welfare state. Women get married mainly for financial support. Uncle Sam will give her (or “her children”, a useful fiction) more money than any but the wealthiest husbands can manage. That freed women to chase the sexy bad boys, knowing that she could always depend on the welfare “safety net”.

    Ordinary men were respected by women when women needed them and couldn’t overrule them. It’s that simple… and that unpopular.

  26. Otto says:

    “Square this with the data that says … genetically, 80% of women have babies. 40% of men father babies. Looks like there is crack squad out there squashing the rebellion.”

    I believe that is true for ancient (civilization times), but is it true today?

    The number I saw for today is: 87% women & 81% of men will reproduce.

  27. seventiesjason says:

    As a man who knows a few things about MGTOW, and watched it grow from webpages like “no ma’m” and “martian space age bachelor” and “knot your tie proper” or “deepwater” in the mid 1990’s to now…….

    MGTOW today is three fold:

    No one is a monk, and the few that are…..it is not by choice……and they pretty much have been run off the scene. “What? A man who doesn’t want sex 24 hrs a day? What a chump. What a beta. What a loser.”

    Most of the scene is now, in 2019 former PUA’s and Game claimers. Guys who bang nine and tens. Who make 200K a year. They have a 12″ penis…….they are always better men than everyone else. They always, always know more than you…..women are only good for one thing, and being a man is the best thing ever, they have dated and banged porn stars……

    The Incel. There is of course a ton of men who were always losers. If they just showered, if they just lost ten pounds. If they just hit the gym, vetted a wife, followed the EXACT steps of of every real man in the man-o-sphere and just became “alpha” there would be no problems. These men have brought all their problems upon themselves. It’s all their fault, and they also are taking the blame for MGTOW getting a bad image.

    The scene is petty, really angry……..read the comment sections………..and a dick measuring contest of “who is more of a MGTOW than someone else because they had sex with a pornstar, or a prostitute told him he was the best she ever had…”

    MGTOW means being a Trump supporter. It means you cannot be a Christian, atheism is championed……..but Muslims seem to be tolerated more and more (funny….MGTOWS are like our general culture…..they are AFRAID of them or calling them out….Christians are easy to run out and bully off or ban them). MGTOW means talking about women and female nature “pretty much all day and all night” but at the same time claiming how much of a “man going his own way he is”

    There was some intelligent debate at one time….there were some hard questions pondered once. There was a ‘general’ respect on the forums and chats at one time…………The PUA scene collapsed, many fled here……..the Incels finally found a place that could “justify” why they were the way they were, the MGTOW monks were pushed out “What????? You are celibate???? You pansy!!!” and the real MGTOWs did just what the name implied.

    They got what they needed, and got on without female justification, or attention.

    The content has not been really groundbreaking in the past three years or so. Same thing over and over and over and over again. “Women / hypergamy / women / women / alpha / alpha / beta / gamma / delta / purple pill / greater beta / lesser beta / strawman / red pill / women suck / I hate women / a woman did this today or that today to me / i bang nines and tens

    The scene is on the verge of an implosion of sorts and the internal war between the incel and PUA is a tinder ready to ignite. Two sides who really hate each and have always had a hatred of other have both fled to the same scene / umbrella.

    Content providers are more concerned with monetizing, donations, getting on TV and the “brand” itself than actually saying or doing anything groundbreaking

    Finally……………………for a bunch of men going their own way…..they talk about women ALL the freaking time.

  28. Otto says:

    @Red Pill Latecomer,

    Alpha is understood by most people (imho) from the canine example. The alpha or lead dog.

    Dogs and humans do have a similar social structure (one of the reasons we get along so well). Which should make it obvious to most people that not everyone can be an alpha. Put a bunch of alpha dogs together and they fight until there is only one alpha left.

    If they were teaching men to be more confident, aggressive, and (bluntly) more self centered & selfish (traits women associate with alpha men and admire) they would be helping men. But, I suspect they are teaching them the churchianity servant-leadership model.

    And yes, women do admire men who are self centered and selfish. Why? Because those are the men who say “I am going to make sure me and my wife and kids are taken care of first come hell or high-water”. It’s the compassionate/feeling men who let their kids go hungry, because they didn’t want to hurt or take advantage of someone else.

  29. Pingback: Warhorn interview: Define red pill, Game, and MGTOW. | Reaction Times

  30. Frank K says:

    I walked by a local Trinity Baptist Church and saw registration tables for their Alpha course.

    Alpha is a very entry level introduction to Christianity put together by some Anglicans, whose target audience seems to be primarily educated agnostics who don’t understand or know even the most fundamental basics of Christianity.

    An anecdote: some years ago I worked with a pleasant English fellow who was a nominal Methodist growing up, but had not stepped into a church since his wedding. In chatting one day I asked him what he thought was the reason or purpose of Jesus dying on the cross. To my amazement he had absolutely no idea, none. I told him that the crucifixion was one of the pivotal moments in Christianity. He was completely lost and didn’t have a clue. After fumbling for a moment or two he finally came up with: “to make people feel bad?” Anyway, Alpha is tailored for people like him.

  31. Frank K says:

    And yes, women do admire men who are self centered and selfish. Why? Because those are the men who say “I am going to make sure me and my wife and kids are taken care of first come hell or high-water”. It’s the compassionate/feeling men who let their kids go hungry, because they didn’t want to hurt or take advantage of someone else.

    Seems to me that the guys who give the ladies the tingles are often the ones who will hop on their Harleys and disappear when she tells him “I’m pregnant”, and it’s the beta guys who will work overtime or second jobs to make sure their kids don’t go hungry (even when they aren’t his kids).

  32. AnonS says:

    No, MGTOW is moving even further away from PUAs to the point of preferring technology over real women, as feminine qualities continue to decrease, effort required to give women enough dopamine to be acceptable increases, and #METOO crazed regret accusations increase.

  33. Frank K says:

    To add to my 11:48 comment: I’m seeing way too many beta men marry women with Chad’s kids in tow and the story seems to always be the same: she has children from previous men, none who were her husband. She has an oops with her beta boy, who marries her and supports her and her bastards. The Chads are long gone, no longer part of her or the childen’s lives.

    What I’ve also seen is that a few years later she starts threatening her beta hubby with divorce. Sometimes you hear later that there was a new Chad in the works.

  34. Anonymous Reader says:

    seventiesjason
    Finally……………………for a bunch of men going their own way…..they talk about women ALL the freaking time.

    Very accurate and succinct, Jason. Well put.

    Those are the bitter, “black pill of despair” sort of men who show up in parts of the androsphere such as Rollo’s site from time to time. The are much more emotional and much less prone to reason. They tend to ruminate a lot, and can always find a possible path to failure in any solution offered to them. Their sites tend strongly to be crab buckets where any man who shows signs of getting himself together is picked at and pulled down. The only solution is to avoid such pits.

    The virulent MGTOW are a lot like mean girls. They are the mirror to a lot of churchgoing men, by the way.

    Now, the earlier MGTOW of the “Huck Finn” sort, the “no ma’am” variety, who just went over the mountain to see what is there, they don’t sit around being keyboard jockies. They go and do stuff, even if it’s just everyday life plus things. They don’t sit around and moan. They may avoid women, but they don’t go around blabbing about it all the time.

  35. Frank K says:

    No, MGTOW is moving even further away from PUAs to the point of preferring technology over real women

    Oh yes, lots of talk in MGTOW circles about how sexbots will replace real women some day. Maybe they’ll have AI’s and do housework too. Seems to me like they will always feel like they’re make of rubber, but what do I know? Maybe if they keep the house clean, cook dinner and are always nice to you the MGTOWs will overlook the smell?

  36. seventiesjason says:

    Anon…TFM and HHH bought dolls. Big whoop. That is not new technology, they’ve been around since the 1970’s. False accusations have been around too for awhile, but PUA’s and mane who have Game cannot ever be accused. You see, if you are accused……you didn’t have proper Game.

    MGTOW is not moving away from women…….they complain about them and talk about the 24 hours a day. It’s like an addiction…….

  37. seventiesjason says:

    I have been run off a few forums for my Christian beliefs…because you know…..that’s not being a “real” MGTOW

    So much hairsplitting……..I pop in here and there, click on a video…..but its the same thing over and over and over again “women suck” and “Trumps gonna fix ’em” or bleeps by the sheep “MGTOW til I die”

    For most….not all…..but most of the scene it has become a place where IF you ARE a failure with women…..here is a place that will JUSTIFY why you are and you are blameless or if you are some J Crew model and are amazing with women…….you belong here and are a real man and can tell them no or yes……your overt bragging will be allowed and the replied they give to you are exactly the cocky-funny lines I heard from PUA’s back in 2000. It’s a strange place to stroll around now………

    Sandman was okay. I liked Stardusk years ago………but now, it’s really tiring……..there is nothing left to say about women now. It’s out there. It’s been said. Read up, figure it out….and please just go your own way

  38. JRob says:

    @7817 Feb 12 10:18 A.M.

    Vox Day nails the fallen nature/evil of humanity.

    https://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/05/mailvox-humble-request.html?m=1

  39. AnonS says:

    Dalrock is not moving away from chivalry…….they complain about it and talk about it 24 hours a day. It’s like an addiction…….

    Men trying to avoid being arrested by the police talk about the police a lot.

    Men trying to avoid taxes talk about taxes a lot.

    Men trying to avoid injustices talk about injustices a lot.

    Men interested in trying to prove a point, talk about evidence that confirms their point.

    That’s a BS argument. They are working to build a case for their side by documenting evidence and examples. Many are still in stages of grief that includes an anger phase.

  40. Scott says:

    I tend to follow along pretty closely with a lot of this stuff even though I don’t comment or blog as much as I used to. But then I’ll be reading along on some site:

    Text words blah blah stuff text stuff chicks red pill words blah blah text SEXBOTS

    …and that’s where they lose me. Glazed over eyes and I’m out.

  41. freebird says:

    Game is tribal tats on the biceps.
    Just kidding,if you’ve got these you’re The Cuck.

  42. seventiesjason says:

    Anon

    That’s an excuse in the MGTOW scene that I have been hearing since 2007? 2009? 2008?

    “They are working to build a case for their side by documenting evidence and examples. Many are still in stages of grief that includes an anger phase”

    The men that are angry and have a vile hatred of women, don’t want to get on with their lives. Seen it for long time now.

    and this

    “Men interested in trying to prove a point, talk about evidence that confirms their point.”

    Is the biggest floater and fat-one-down-the-middle I have heard in awhile……you could make that case for anything, and justify it. That line was a cop-out and a “discussion ender” by you. Is that an alpha tactic? lol

    There are backlogs going back now a decade and a half in the MGTOW scene talking about “still in the anger phase” and that’s really a hot one. Part of the reason why a good portion are still angry is because the advice isn’t helpful….or its repackaged “Game” and zero fellowship to walk deeper or help……..

    as for this Chivalry thing Dalrock is stuck on……..I never knew a medieval code that was for warfare somehow in 1324 or whatever ruined marriage in 2019. I still fail to see the connection

  43. Scott says:

    Seventiesjason

    If you move to Montana and convert to orthodoxy my wife and I will tirelessly try to help you find a wife.

  44. 7817 says:

    JRob, yeah that’s a great post.

    I think that unless one understands that evil is in some senses desirable to every man and woman, one cannot even begin to make sense of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, many if not most Christians take the admonition to hate evil and twist it into an erroneous dogma that insists evil is not and cannot be enjoyable. And yet, no matter how terrible the act, it always feels either good or necessary at the moment of action.

    This quote from him is really good, but does not go quite far enough in describing a fair number of church people’s attitude towards women. They act like the majority of women are not sinful, and only the small minority are. Not All Women Are Like That to these people means that Most Women Are Good.

  45. Oscar says:

    @ Wraithburn

    Most the men in the world are Delta, happy to work quietly as part of a team.

    That sounds a lot like 1 Thessalonians 4.

    3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality…
    9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another; 10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; 11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, 12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

    I read that recently with my older kids, and it really resonated with me. It makes a holy life attainable.

  46. seventiesjason says:

    Scott I asked you questions about Orthodoxy when I first went to a church here in Santa Rosa, and I got a “oh sweet Jesus remark” and I was given some flippant remarks that someone like me (average IQ here) could not understand.

    Your offer is very kind of you, and if I did move and did not have a “provider status” job….I can camp and hike. Been to Glacier National Park….but what kind of work I am going to do in Montana that will give a middle class, provider status for her before I turn sixty five and need adult diapers??? And I am not some natural alpha….that has been made VERY clear here over the years. Your heart and works towards the Kingdom mean nothing in the Christian sphere unless you just already are or always have been “the man”

    It’s freaking over for me. If there is a REAL sin of mine in all of this nonsense over the years…that is it. Accepting that on the cusp of 50, and always a “chump”??????? Well, I don’t have ten twenty years to undo, untangle and fix. Sad but true.

    Thanks though!

  47. JRob says:

    They act like the majority of women are not sinful, and only the small minority are. Not All Women Are Like That to these people means that Most Women Are Good.

    You are absolutely right. That’s part of the circle of silliness Dalrock and others point out. Not recognizing, not *believing,* the scriptural concept of total depravity is where it begins. If only men suffered this condition humanity wouldn’t need a savior and thus no ultimate sacrifice.

  48. Oscar says:

    @ Cane Caldo

    I’ve heard too many sailors and soldiers tell stories that–when they go overseas–they are not seen as nice-guy chumps like they are at home, but men worth having because of what is, to us, “Beta”.

    I can confirm.

    I’ve never been the kind of man at whom women throw themselves… until I visited Eastern Europe. Over there, in my 30s, as an Army Captain, I got the kind of attention that female 8s get here. It’s seriously disorienting.

  49. Scott says:

    Oscar/cane

    The Khazak girls at the barber shop in Kandahar were pretty clear that they would like me to marry them and take them on a soldier adventure life in America.

    It was weird because it didn’t seem to faze them that I was married already.

  50. @seventiesjason, what’s your point?

    TFM is honestly the wokest of them of all, and pretty cheerful as far as that goes, he’s not bitter and angry which is why he’s easy to listen to. Yeah he’s a heathen weirdo. I’m not even MGTOW, but it’s like learning what the cons are so you don’t get conned. As far as the “chivalry thing Dalrock is stuck on” if you’d been reading you would understand that he is talking about the chivalric rules of love, not the codes of war from the middle ages. He’s even addressed that exact comment in previous posts.

    We’re reaching a point where we need to do something and actually bringing this stuff up and talking about it is something. As a general rule, Western women basically hate Western men. Even if they don’t mean to they act as if they do. At the very least learning this stuff can keep you from falling into the countless traps and pits.

    Past a certain point the problem is structural not personal. The economics and the culture make marriage and the process of getting there extremely difficult. If men can avoid getting skinned by learning the cons (TFM), and navigating the churchian minefields (Dalrock), then I think that’s awesome.

  51. Oscar says:

    Scott,

    Yeah, I’m glad I was married when I visited Eastern Europe. I can’t imagine how stupidly I would’ve behaved with that kind of power, if I’d been single.

  52. Barnie says:

    Chivalry is a very haphazard moral system, a mild form of submissive sexual fetish and a projection of male desires onto females. Heartiste will often write about how men will take on the attributes that they find attractive in women in hopes of being attractive TO women. In this case that being devotion, chastity and submissiveness. It goes without saying that this is ineffective.

  53. seventiesjason says:

    greenmantle

    I find most of the talk way over-intellectualized on this topic. how are you, Dalrock, the “elite married guys” in here gonna convey to a nineteen year old these concepts?

    You aren’t. It’s like when I first became a Christian…..born again…..all I was told to have “eternal life” was to “Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior” and “His teachings are simple, straight forward and anyone can easily understand them with study, prayer and diligence.”

    The was added Paul, everyone now quoting Hebrew, and Greek…..people talking about really deep concepts bordering on things that I never recall reading in The Bible……people arguing over what words mean, and exactly what theologian from the 4th century said about what…….I have read many, many “translations” of The Bible (New Life, living, recovery, womens…….bibles for teens, bibles for gays…….) and the words used in each one DON’T mean the same thing.

    For something so simple as a sorrowful Savior on a Cross who took my burden, shame, and sin and to grant me such a Gift and through teaching that was pretty straightforward, and parables that were meant for me to really, really, really think about ponder and strive to change my life and fall on the side of God………

    To now where in order t have a Christian marriage I have to fully comprehend TFM, (or others like him) and Dalrocks take on a medieval code that has not been in practice since the rennaisance or thereabouts….thus making a bridge to modern marriage…..compounded by all the modern stuff like Game, PUA, all the greek terms, and what makes a “real” man and what doesn’t????????

    It’s actually made me more cold, hopeless, and well………at time really angry……….and you think this mode of expository teaching is gonna make the average young mad say “Oh, yeah……clear as day, right here!”

    Doubtful.

    Flame away! Call me stupid, shame and belittle me…….its usually what I get here anyway even when I do agree with you guys 😉

  54. BillyS says:

    Scott,

    I would almost be tempted by your offer Scott, though I would not be good for most wives you could find. I don’t think I could handle the core tenets of Orthodoxy, but belonging someplace would be much better than what I personally have now.

    Jason,

    I get called negative all the time because I am a realist (with a bit of a prophetic bent), but even I can be cheerful even in a tough situation. You have already shown you can make friends, I would love to have that ability as easily as you, yet you complain all the time here.

  55. seventiesjason says:

    Sure Billy……when I don’t understand something or call it out…….it’s complaining.

  56. AnonS says:

    The purpose of culture is so 19 year olds can follow the generally accepted script and get decent outcomes and avoid degenerate outcomes. Once that is no longer the case, the average masses will follow the mainstream to their doom. And only those on the edges of the bell curve in traits like low agreeableness, low neuroticism, high IQ will stop and try to figure things out for themselves.

    When culture is built around keeping people in a fog, they won’t see clearly until they learn enough to know what to see around. And you can’t teach the average person to just “be more clever”, “be smarter”.

  57. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Frank

    What you are describing is a more obvious form of “Alpha F*** Beta Bucks” that has been amply documented for years in the androsphere. It is an example of female hypergamy. The stage where wifey gets unhaaaapy with her Beta landing strip is also documented for years now, including right here in the comments. Thanks for reminding.

    Open hypergamy is emerging. That will mean she keeps on living with Beta Bucks but gets her Girls Night Out with Chad, and even gets pregnant by him, but expects him to stick around and support her and her children. That would be open cuckolding, yes, and so?

    Churches that can’t bring themselves to whisper a word of criticism towards women that get abortions done sure won’t be troubled by that.

    Action item: the next time I hear a churchgoing man bemoaning abortion, I’ll just observe “Yeah, women can be really evil, can’t they?” and see what the response is. Should be an entertaining moment of cognitive dissonance.

  58. @seventiesjason
    “Flame away! Call me stupid, shame and belittle me…….its usually what I get here anyway even when I do agree with you guys 😉”

    Can do!

    I think you’re arguing with someone who isn’t here because I didn’t actually say any of that, man. Although I’m a little troubled by the idea that Paul is “adding” to Christianity, it’s right there in the Bible and for good reason. I may have read you wrong or something though. Yes there are a lot of “translations”, and I sympathize because a lot of them were not made by men either honest enough or skillful enough to measure up to the task, as far as I can tell. I would say pick up a King James Bible, make that your Bible and drive on, but that’s a huge topic for another time and place probably.

    Hey, the Bible doesn’t tell you a lot of stuff, although it’s universal in application. I’m not learning programming from the Bible and that’s ok. Regarding TFM and Dalrock, I’m just saying it’s useful stuff, I think it’s helpful. At several companies I’ve worked at I’ve had mandatory IT security training, just the basics to keep our tech from getting infected or ourselves from getting conned. It’s useful stuff.

    Does it impact the average young man? It has, dude. A lot of guys say “I read Dalrock and my eyes got opened.” It’s a lot more useful than what I learned at church on this topic on the average day I’ll tell you that.

    If you’re angry or hopeless or what have you, that just may be a sign that you personally need to not dwell on this for a bit. I’m not being mean, I’ve personally had times where I had to cut way back on politics, news, etc., because it just wasn’t where my mind needed to be. It’s not a big deal.

  59. seventiesjason says:

    So there is no hope for anyone who isn’t on the upper reaches of the Bell Curve. You really wouldn’t like that answer if you were not the one who wasn’t on the edges either Anon. That’s sad. Most men in the Bible that God used were that…………………..hopelessly average

    So its a genetic thing? If you are born with average IQ (like most people) and you have moderate agreeableness and those other terms that are just made up psycho-babble……..

    You’re doomed? You serve no purpose? You can’t figure out things for yourself?

    Exactly why most men would not be welcomed here in theis forum or scene. You had better have a Phd in Medieval Europe, a masters in Rhettoric, been to theologian school, and be married to a submissive wife, be an Alpha, and have Game……….or you really “can’t” be a red pilled Christian

  60. Splashman says:

    I truly pity men (and women) like Jason, who reach middle age without having learned from their mistakes, which they scrupulously blame on others.

  61. Gunner Q says:

    Jason, who are you arguing with? You don’t have the first clue what MGTOW is today, if you think MGTOW means being a Trump supporter.

  62. Splashman says:

    They seem to spend most of their time attempting to make others as miserable as themselves.

  63. Anonymous Reader says:

    AnonS
    When culture is built around keeping people in a fog, they won’t see clearly until they learn enough to know what to see around.

    Properly understood, the Red Pill / The Glasses enables a man to see clearly what is around him. PUA’s are empirical – they do what works, and do not do what does not work. I believe this is one of the biggest hurdles for a lot of men, because of the “should be” factor.

    All the techniques in the PUA’s set are in opposition to the pretty lies so loved by neo-Victorian Traditional Conservatives. I suspect that this, as much as any morality issues, is what drives animus towards PUA’s from many older churchmen. If Pickup didn’t work, would those men care? Perhaps. But it does work, and might even work on “traditional” “conservative” women in the average TradCon church.

    Given a choice between discarding pretty lies in order to accept some reality, and railing against Bad Men in order to preserve the pretty lies, we can see what many men do. They are reinforced in this by conservative feminists, and Trad Cons as a group care a lot about the approval of women.

    In fact, by their actions, at least some Trad Cons care more about women’s approval than anything else. Anything else, including literal text right out of the Bible they love to thump.

    Not pointing finger at anyone in this comment stream, mind you, but I am looking hard at celebrity preachers for a start.

  64. seventiesjason says:

    Again Greenmountain……

    “I’m not learning programming from the Bible”

    No kidding. I’m not that stupid, of course you are not. I just don’t see this connection, or bridge, and all the translations, references to Courtly Love and what it means through this, to this, to that to marriage in 2019………….or dating or anything.

    I am sorry, when a 19 year old doesn’t even know or Constitution or what it means or what;s in it, and he’s gonna grasp courtly concepts of feudal Europe and Tennyson v some rune translation from some Celtic Bard on the story of King Arthur…….

    I’ll call whale excrement on that

  65. OKRickety says:

    seventiesjason,

    Have you found a church there to fellowship with? Do you know any Christians there whose company you enjoy?

  66. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Some of us are MGTOW simply because we are. MGTOW is not a philosophy for me. It’s not a movement. I didn’t choose it.

    I am MGTOW because that’s how I ended up. I was unable to attract a woman who I was attracted to, and so I never married. MGTOW is my lot in life.

    I don’t advocate it or oppose it. It just is. I just am.

    If anyone thinks I’m “not a true MGTOW” or “yes, a true MGTOW,” well, either way, so what?

  67. Anonymous Reader says:

    Bonus addendum to the previous comment:, ,

    Unlike PUA’s, Traditional Conservatives insist on repeating what generally does not work, and urging other men to do the same. So we get grown men with wives that are unhaaaaapy being told “Choreplay!” as if doing more dishes makes a man more attractive to any wife. The failure of church-based counseling has been demonstrated by many men in the androsphere, yet that’s still one of the go-to solutions for TradCons.

    The only explanation I have has to do generally with the age of the average TradCon and the temperment of his wife. A man who’s 70 years old, who married 45 years ago to a reasonably docile and compliant woman, a man who is the sole source of family income can still more or less live by the old set of books.

    The fact that a whole lot of men in similar situations have wound up frivorced in the last 30 or more years doesn’t matter, because there’s always some flaw in his life that can be pointed to as the “reason”. TradCons in my experience are like men who live in small towns with temperate climate where snow is unknown, who drive around streets with little traffic, and who just Shake Their Heads at all the accidents that happen in some cities. Must be all those bad drivers. Couldn’t be road conditions, and who needs to learn to drive in snow anyway?

    tl;dr
    If TradCons were driving instructors, nobody would ever learn how to drive on ice except by their own trial & error. Because “turn into the skid” is counter-intuitive, and TradCons teach the exact opposite; it should be possible to just drive the same way on ice as on a dry road, therefore…

  68. Paul says:

    @Jason

    In the end you are the only person to make your life decisions, and are responsible for your walk of life before God. You are to pick, with guidance of the Holy Spirit, which church you’re going to attend (if at all), and which teachers you’re going to listen to.

    You can hardly go wrong if you pray and ask Jesus to show you the way; the Holy Spirit will show you your sins, and will transform you. Just dedicate yourself to Jesus the Lord and Shepherd of your soul.

    If some discussions are not interesting to you, or are too difficult to follow, you’re probably not called to enter such discussions. Not all discussions are relevant for your personal life.

  69. Paul says:

    @7818 Problem is, church people right now generally don’t want to accept the reality of the fallen world. That is precisely the value of the insights that people like Rollo attribute to evolutionary or behavioral psychology.

    Most of it is however b*llshit in the first place. And you cannot substitute moral choices with some psychology. Most guidance in the NT on male-female relationships go back to Adam and Eve. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but most modern scientist and many Christian too, outright reject any teaching grounded in Adam and Eve. From an exegetical point of view it is however essential.

    Therefore it is better for Christians to follow Jesus and Paul and their treatment of Scripture.

  70. Lost Patrol says:

    It was weird because it didn’t seem to faze them that I was married already.

    They have high confidence that they know something of what American women are like, and figure they can easily out compete them to the point that an existing marriage won’t matter.

  71. AnonS says:

    “So there is no hope for anyone who isn’t on the upper reaches of the Bell Curve. You really wouldn’t like that answer if you were not the one who wasn’t on the edges either Anon. That’s sad. Most men in the Bible that God used were that…………………..hopelessly average”

    Except they weren’t average in that they could withstand public condemnation and risk death for the truth. The average masses rejected the prophets and rejected Christ. Wide is the path to damnation.

    “”So its a genetic thing? If you are born with average IQ (like most people) and you have moderate agreeableness and those other terms that are just made up psycho-babble……..
    You’re doomed? You serve no purpose? You can’t figure out things for yourself?”

    These are highly predictive measures. Yes, you are doomed if you can’t figure things out for yourself or can’t find a good mentor (someone off the center of the bell curve) that can guide you and just follow what you are told. And this is reflected in statistics that get worse every year.

    “Exactly why most men would not be welcomed here in theis forum or scene. You had better have a Phd in Medieval Europe, a masters in Rhettoric, been to theologian school, and be married to a submissive wife, be an Alpha, and have Game……….or you really “can’t” be a red pilled Christian”

    No, you probably just need an IQ of at least 110-120 to follow abstract arguments and evidence from statistics. A lot of guys reading aren’t married because the supply of submissive wives is so low.

  72. 7817 says:

    @Paul

    you cannot substitute moral choices with some psychology.

    Not what I was arguing. Use reading comprehension.

    If you disagree with what I wrote, fine. At this point it looks like you didn’t even understand it.

  73. Scrutiniser says:

    I understand this:

    The label I would apply to myself is Unchivalrous Christian, and I have a post in the works on this.

    A few months ago, I was at a gathering with other friends (mostly/all 20s and 30s), and we ate pizza off plates. I collected the plates afterwards to put them in the sink or whatever. It was a small gesture, but Christians should have a servant-hearted attitude.

    One girl then said to me, “You’re such a gentleman!”

    I replied, “I’m not a gentleman,” and carried on collecting the plates.

    Hopefully, she understood what I meant.

    I want to be kind to others, including women, but kind acts I perform should not derive from my being a single man aiming to please women.

    When you treat women with favouritism, I wonder if you become a “respecter of persons” – something that God isn’t. We should be kind as a sort of default setting, if I can use that phrase.

    Kindness is Christianity applied; chivalry is Christianity manipulated and repurposed.

  74. seventiesjason says:

    No, you probably just need an IQ of at least 110-120 to follow abstract arguments and evidence from statistics.”

    sigh

  75. Scott says:

    I went to theologian school before the army and it was stupid.

  76. seventiesjason says:

    Another club I cannot be a part of.

    Anon.

    Thanks, you said probably what I really already knew down deep…..but as usual, I so want to understand. So what do I do?

    Find a mentor? Mentoring here is: Read this book (that I got to have 120 IQ to understand), read this blog, do this or that…..didn’t work? Oh, that’s too bad……but Jesus loves you too!

    My whole life I have been told I was never good enough. I didn’t have what it took. Made fun of. Lied to. Mad a fool of believing many of the same lies more intelligent people fell for as well, but since you know……I was easier to cast aside. I got blamed for being a fool. They left or got on with their lives unscathed. Christ found me, and for once…..I really thought that I would actually find some real fellowship or growth, or even helps. In this past decade I have heard more talk about what being a “real man” is and a shifting arrogance to keep me out of the loop….as if many Christians actually enjoy doing this to their fellow men. Lots of name calling and really hurtful things said and done in His name. Okay, I’m a simpleton….and I guess I don’t know what the Bible “really” means or what Jesus really “meant” but the arrogant replies and retorts I have been given really don’t convict me to even change, step up, or look up to 99% of you.

    Most of the church isn’t going to be the “intellectual” elite like you. You are gonna have to learn how to talk to the rest of us.

    Some conversations I have no business being in. Thanks.

    Yet I am supposed to change, “be red pill” and in actuality I was in some areas decades before you all were. What I know isn’t enough or twisted in just a way to again…make a fool of me.

    And you think you are going to bring all men to this????? You think you are going to impact the relations between men and women in a Christian sense when indeed most men are at my intelligence range?

    I don’t know…….

    Suggestions?

  77. OKRickety says:

    AnonS said: “A lot of guys reading aren’t married because the supply of submissive wives is so low.”

    I doubt it’s the situation AnonS had in mind, but I think it’s also true for me. I am no longer married because my ex-wife wasn’t willing to remain submitted to me or to God.

  78. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott

    I went to theologian school before the army and it was stupid.

    Could you expand on that? Something like the way you contrasted psych to the famous “Stop It!” vid?

  79. seventiesjason says:

    Splashman, you said: I truly pity men (and women) like Jason, who reach middle age without having learned from their mistakes, which they scrupulously blame on others.

    Drug addict and alcoholic. Clean and sober 15 years. Learned from mistakes. No relapses ever.

    Made bad choices concerning career. I should have entered the field I am in now, property management when I was 22. I was a fool and did what I was “told” about making money and went into high tech as a younger man. Good career. Solid employment. Being a “provider” (loll, what a joke). Wasted over 12 years at IBM. My good years too. Learned from mistake. Lesson learned.

    Went to see a stupid idiot named David DeAngelo in 1999 speak in San Francisco. Paid for books, went to a bootcamp, he was gonna teach me everything I ever needed to know about women. Dating. IOI’s. The secret language. Approaching. $4000.00 poorer, money wasted, and techniques that never worked unless you had the checkbook of looks to back them up to begin with. Mistake made. Lesson learned.

    Served on the Board of Trustees of my undergraduate in Vermont for two terms 1997-2001. Dumped over 100K into that place as a Trustee in the name of “helping” my college. A waste of money. A waste of time, and really a mistake. Lesson learned.

    Developed a tool for internal use at IBM, submitted to the “Ideas” program. IBM adopted it, implemented it company wide. Paid me 147K in 1996. I should have submitted a patent and then SOLD it to IBM for three times the amount. Mistake made. Lesson learned.

    So cut the nonsense about “men like me not learning from my mistakes” I’ve made a plenty, but in the end I always got back up…..even when the odds were against me. You can have a better or more meaningful “peanut gallery” comment than that.

  80. Scott says:

    AR:

    I obtained my first masters degree from this program:

    https://www.masters.edu/academics/graduate/MABC

    This is John MacArthurs school/church.

    It is a nouthetic program and is s hybrid of sorts. It is run in conjunction with the masters seminary whereas you take the first year of classes that the seminary students take, (Theology, hermeneutics, Greek, Hebrew, etc) and then move to a counseling track with thesis and practicum/internship in the second year.

    Seminary breeds Pharisees. It seemed like I spent the whole time arguing with fellow students about what some verse meant because I parsed a Greek verb late last night differently than than the Ormulum translators of the vulgate did.

    “Hey what do you think this verse means? I bet your wrong about it! Want to fight?”

    That was 22 years ago.

    I have since converted to Orthodxy (after a long journey through divorce, apathy, “fuck the worldism” the army, becoming a psychologist, remarriage, children, and a lot more.)

    So I have a totally different hermeneutic and approach to scripture, authority and my faith then I did then.

  81. Scott says:

    Sorry my dumb “smart” phone made a bunch of errors there.

  82. drifter says:

    @70sjason
    My suggestion: Be productive. Go build something…anything. Sounds like you’re unmarried, and if so, you probably have few obligations/demands on your resources. Recall the parable of the talents. Whatever skills/giftings you have, put them to use; develop and improve them. ‘Use it or lose it’ is real. Need some ideas/inspiration? Get on youtube and see the amazing things people do (by themselves, no less). E.g., I’m watching men (no, not women) build cabins in the woods with relatively low-tech tools, and little help from others. This will keep not only your body busy, but your mind as well. More than a high IQ, this requires will, perseverance and stamina. You want respect? This will bring it from more than a few onlookers; though don’t make that your motive. It is a nice by-product, however.

  83. Yer says:

    But Game also has value within marriage, especially since we have decided that romantic love is the place for sex and marriage, instead of marriage being the place for sex and romantic love.

    While I’m sure if we all added our favorites the included reading list would be dozens of posts long, I would stress the importance of your post “Why Christians Need Game” for crystallizing this idea to the sola scriptura crowd.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/why-christians-need-game/

    Pope Benedict once wrote that sexually active gays benefit from using condoms. Of course, this does not mean that married people should wear condoms, or that Pope Benedict is broadly “pro-condom.” Similarly, as described in that post, men lacking Biblical frame benefit from using conscious game (aping the behavior cues of an authoritative patriarch). This doesn’t mean King David would benefit from reading “Mystery Method,” nor does it make us “pro-game” in any universal sense.

  84. ys says:

    SeventiesJason-
    I have advised men, albeit younger than you, and I can take a crack at you. I am curious at what you want…sometimes you have said no thanks to modern women (fine if that’s how you feel) then other times you lament being alone. Are you fine being alone? Then be alone. If you aren’t, then find a good, Christian female.
    Sounds like you are in the city. And nearly 50. That does stack the odds against you, I would be lying not to acknowledge that. You may not convert to Orthodoxy, but consider what Scott said. Out in the wilds of Montana, he probably knows a good many girls who are decent. Moreso, percentage-wise, than in the city. If not Montana, some other rural area. I live in a populous state in the Midwest but am decidedly not in the city. It helps.
    Your options may be limited. You may be left to marry an honored widow (rare) or a woman with a past who has TRULY repented (rarer still). This is your lot, perhaps. But as people have said, and it’s true, don’t be bitter. I myself, like you mentioned for you, have instances in my past where I regret not making more of financial opportunities. No doubt you kick yourself, but I have kids! I would kick myself even more, but I have chosen to be grateful to God for what I have, to thank Him every day, and realize that the past is the past, and is only there for learning.
    Now for the theology stuff, honestly, don’t worry about it. There are people who are theology nerds or geeks. It can be an interesting side hobby, and it draws a cross-section of folks. But if that’s not your bag, or you don’t understand it, or both, then a simple faith in the Savior is fine. You don’t need to learn Post-Millennialism, Koine Greek, Dominionism, Calvinism, or whatever the case may be. Keep your faith in the One who died for you. That’s what matters most. Been praying all afternoon since I saw your post until now.

  85. cshort says:

    @Scott

    I can certainly understand that view of seminary that it has a tendency to breed Pharisees. I’m currently working on an MDiv and the experience varies from “let’s regurgitate whatever the prof says or we won’t get an A” to “I don’t want to be Christian anymore” to the fights you describe and more. The lack of critical thinking often displayed is something that worries me. There’s a lot of regurgitation of “scholarly” text without any obvious thought about it.

    Personally, I felt called to go and get this degree, though I still haven’t figured out the why. So for me it’s mainly a make the professor happy, learn about why some people interpret things the way they do, and look at all this cool extra reading I get to do because of classes… At some point I figure I’ll understand the why.

  86. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    First female Viper demo team pilot removed from position after 2 weeks: https://www.foxnews.com/us/first-female-viper-demo-team-pilot-removed-from-position-after-2-weeks

    The first female pilot to head the Air Combat Command F-16 Viper demonstration team was relieved of command Monday due to a “loss of confidence” in her ability to lead, the Air Force said.

    Capt. Zoe Kotnik was removed from her position after two weeks, Col. Derek O’Malley, the 20th Fighter Wing commander, said in a statement.

    “I removed Capt. Kotnik from her position as the commander of the Viper Demo team [Monday], because I lost confidence in her ability to lead the team.” O’Malley said. “I know that loss of confidence is a common response from the Air Force, whenever someone is removed from a command position, and I think it’s important to understand why we take this approach.”

    O’Malley alluded to Kotnik making mistakes but did not further elaborate on exactly what led to her being relieved of her duties. He said he hoped Kotnik will continue to serve the Air Force despite the incident.

  87. The Question says:

    “I am seeing Christians outside the men’s sphere use the term Alpha to represent good husbands, and Betas to represent losers. This is an anti marriage perspective.”

    I think the other problem is that it infers that Alpha traits are to be admired or emulated. Being an alpha doesn’t make you admirable. It doesn’t make you a leader. And there’s a lot of nuance involved, because on one hand men might want to become more attractive to women, yet at the same time a lot of those traits are detrimental if you want to develop better male friendships The kind of man who is unpredictable, flakey and never shows up on time can keep a girl’s interest, but to another man he’s a pain in the ass not worth trying to spend time with.

    This is one of the big issues for men; should he strive to become what women find attractive, or what makes him more masculine? It’s not an either/or, but what if a trait that makes you better admired or respected by men you know and want to be friends with makes you less arousing to women? What is your higher priority?

  88. 7817 says:

    Jason: these are tough to read sometimes, but it’s man to man advice that will help you if you can face it.

    https://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/search?q=gamma&m=1

  89. Splashman says:

    Jason, you’re proving my point. You recited some “poor oppressed Jason” anecdotes in which you apparently learned from your mistakes, but evidence of a lesson learned is when you do something differently the next time around. Got any of those?

    Of course you don’t, otherwise you wouldn’t be here complaining about your situation.

    You’ll still be here (or on some other site) complaining about your situation twenty years from now, because that’s much easier than facing yourself in the mirror.

  90. Anonymous Reader says:

    Yer
    … men lacking Biblical frame benefit from using conscious game (aping the behavior cues of an authoritative patriarch).

    “True Biblical Frame vs. No True Biblical Frame”, there’s a game no one has ever played here before. Not ever. Just as no man has ever proclaimed himself the Only Real Biblical Man In The Room, nope. Not ever…

    This doesn’t mean King David would benefit from reading “Mystery Method,” nor does it make us “pro-game” in any universal sense.

    Lol. Go review the story of David & Bathsheba in view of hypergamy & preselection. “It’s good to be the king” game works fairly reliably.

    PS: You have a mouse in your pocket, you are an editor, or something else?

    “We are amused”.

  91. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Scott
    Thanks for that explication. I learned a couple of things from it, as I often do in Dalrock’s comments section.

  92. BillyS says:

    RPL,

    They are using “alpha” in the term of “first” completely independent of any social hierarchy.

  93. BillyS says:

    Jason,

    You have been around here long enough to understand at least a few things. You may not agree with them, but you could at least stop whining.

  94. Lost Patrol says:

    First female Viper demo team pilot removed from position after 2 weeks:

    This is massive.
    – Air Force relieves for loss of confidence
    – A woman
    – A pilot
    – The first woman to command the demo team
    – After two weeks

    Basically iron clad confirmation that she got the job to begin with for all the wrong reasons. Her only job was to make points for the USAF. Who put her there, who approved it? Might be time for some loss of confidence in him/her/them.

  95. BillyS says:

    I guess I need to start whining more since I am feeling awfully alone these days and don’t have any direct connections. The women I am attracted to don’t even see me and I am definitely not at the top of the Bell curve in this area. I guess I am also ignorant enough to not realize I am not welcome here….

    I am a Trump supporter though, so I guess I can never be a MGTOW after all!

  96. Lost Patrol says:

    Col. Derek O’Malley, the 20th Fighter Wing commander

    I should point out that the good Col. checked more than once with a wide selection of his immediate chain of command before relieving a high profile female. Amongst them there were several conversations and gnashing of teeth. That’s how it works when there are going to be headlines.

  97. OKRickety says:

    Splashman,

    “You recited some “poor oppressed Jason” anecdotes in which you apparently learned from your mistakes, but evidence of a lesson learned is when you do something differently the next time around. Got any of those?”

    Well, let’s see:

    seventiesjason said: “Drug addict and alcoholic. Clean and sober 15 years. Learned from mistakes. No relapses ever.

    Made bad choices concerning career. I should have entered the field I am in now, property management when I was 22.

    Served on the Board of Trustees of my undergraduate in Vermont for two terms 1997-2001. Dumped over 100K into that place as a Trustee in the name of “helping” my college. A waste of money. A waste of time, and really a mistake. Lesson learned.” (Apparently no longer involved or donating funds.)

    If those are not examples of doing something differently the next time around, I don’t know what qualifies. Based on your reading comprehension, I’d say your opinion is virtually worthless.

  98. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    WTF? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/west-coast-real-estate-is-now-so-expensive-that-married-couples-are-moving-in-with-multiple-roommates-2019-02-12

    Married couples are making room for roommates. …

    Just ask Kelsey Riley Dixon. The 29-year-old business owner and her husband, a semi-pro kayaker, share a four-bedroom home with three male roommates “to reduce costs in the very expensive city of Seattle,” she says. “It allows us to have a home in a really expensive city with a deck, a backyard, a basement — and we are able to pay half the rate that we would living on our own.”

    One big motivation for having roommates: Having extra money to travel. The couple recently spent nine months in Chile, Peru, Australia and New Zealand.

    “We don’t want to spend that much money on rent. This [having roommates] aligns with our values. We’d rather use that money for travel,” she says. And she adds that not only does having roommates help financially, it’s also “fun and rewarding.”

    Article is about the high cost of real estate, compelling married couples to take in roommates.

    But … a married couple living with three single guys? And the husband is okay with it?

    Some interesting comments under the article about their setup:

    How does a “business owner” get to take 9 months off to travel?? Maybe if she stayed home and actually worked on growing her business she could live in a home with her “semi-pro” kayaker” husband and travel. …

    And, 3 years from now the husband – a semi-unemployed kayaker named “Gunnar” – will have intermittently creeping thoughts about why his new son “Chase” has curly black hair with an olive complexion while both he and his wife are pale skinned with straight blonde hair. …

    Let me guess – her “business” is “child car seat installer?” (I’m not kidding, look it up)

  99. Spike says:

    Excellent article again, Dalrock. Also, given to the media in a way that can’t be twisted, misconstrued or quoted out of context – priceless. I particularly like your elucidation of red Pill, and why you dislike the term.
    I tend to refer to myself as “Married Red Pill” – having come to an red-pill awakening about the state of the world and particularly relations between the sexes after marriage. Your point, though regarding how the term ”red pill” is applied across differing perspectives allows the term to be misconstrued.

    Rgarding the term “Alpha”:an ”Alpha” in the settled sense of the word is strong, successful physically, vocationally and sexually. In practice, few men are this. So were I to categorise myself in a strictly “Alpha/ Beta”, I would be ”competent Beta”, a term I picked up from an early Men’s site called “No Ma’am”. The author did NOT consider such betas ”losers”: he states that while Alphas were fighting and screwing, betas literally built everything that exists and eventually made the Alpha obsolete.

    Recentlya new term has emerged: the Sigma. A Sigma would be a male who isn’t Alpha but is aware of a hierarchy existing around him, aware of laws, aware of Game. He may or may not be MGTOW, but he interacts as he chooses and avoids pitfalls.
    For me personally, this would be a much more apt description than an immature / unrefined “Alpha -winner Beta – loser” axis.
    ”Unchivalrous Christian” would fit well into the Sigma mould.

  100. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jason, I’m about 10 years older than you. I too very much wanted to be married.

    I was depressed as I approached age 40 and realized that it likely wouldn’t happen. But by 50, I was resigned to my fate. I’m not ecstatic, but I accept. With age, one often mellow.

    Perhaps you too will mellow and become at peace with your single life.

  101. Wraithburn says:

    @Oscar

    That’s a good way of putting it. There’s nothing wrong with wanting a quiet life doing the things God gives into your hands. The man with only a few talents still went out and did things.

    When I was growing up, there was a lot of pressure that unless you were involved in mission trips or knocking on doors or going to seminary then you were failing to be a Christian. Always frustrated me, as I never felt called to any of that. I just wanted a family.

  102. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    The term Sigma has been around for a while. I’ve heard it applied to men who don’t give a damn about anyone’s opinions, reject hierarchies, are lone wolves, and are often confused with Alphas.

    But I’ve also read that many alleged Sigmas are really delusional Gammas. “I’m alone not because others reject me, but because I refuse to compromise my principles with conventional social norms.” Kind of like teenage Ayn Rand fanboys.

    Some say that Sigmas don’t really exist. An alleged Sigma is really either an Alpha or a Delusional Gamma.

    Also, when I’ve been on message boards discussing Sigmas, it seems that almost every poster thinks that they’re a Sigma.

  103. Oscar says:

    @ Wraithburn

    When I was growing up, there was a lot of pressure that unless you were involved in mission trips or knocking on doors or going to seminary then you were failing to be a Christian. Always frustrated me, as I never felt called to any of that. I just wanted a family.

    That’s exactly it.

    We’re not all called to be evangelists, or missionaries. Most of us are called to a Jeremiah 29 kind of life – living as normal a life as possible while in exile in Babylon.

    When my kids and I read 1 Thessalonians 4, I told them that as they leave the house and form their own families, that kind of life will become even more important. As American culture devolves, a nice, two-parent, Christian home will shine ever brighter in the growing darkness. And people will begin to wonder; “why is my family so full of chaos, while that family has so little chaos?” And when they talk to you about it, it’ll give you an opportunity to say, “let me tell you about Jesus”.

  104. Wraithburn says:

    @Oscar

    I have been stymied thus far on the forming of the family bit myself. It was far easier to do the prep work I thought I needed. Wasn’t until I started trying to date and found out women weren’t interested in me that I started to question the “wisdom” conveyed by the church and society. Found sites like this one. Dalrock has been extremely valuable to me in squaring the reality I saw with my Christian faith.

    I’m not happy that it hasn’t been easy to build the family I wanted, but looking back I’m very thankful God protected me from dangers I was not even aware were there. Could have found myself divorced and barely able to get by, instead of debt free and doing well in my career.

  105. JRob says:

    @Oscar and Wraithburn

    That pressure is alive and well. See: David Platt. All the rage with the churchie chickies. Brief perusal seems he may lean socialist, which we know said chickies love.

    https://bibleweighstation.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/radical-two-and-a-half-caveats/

  106. Wraithburn says:

    @JRob

    I’m not surprised. I haven’t stepped into a church building in about two years, but it was still going strong. At the time, I didn’t see that being a member of the congregation was choosing to wash out of the “elite” as Dalrock puts it. Any girl you talked to could easily see who you were, and avoid all those icky losers.

  107. seventiesjason says:

    Billy & Gunner. Go to any MGTOW comment section, join any Dischord for MGTOW, call into TFM (which I did about two months ago) and explained a situation that I did not agree with President Trump on.

    You would have thought I denied Christ his divenity. Such hatred. Such anger. Such calling me a liberal, a Hillary supporter, the insults and rage from the chat, and TFM. I dind’t know this, but “Trump” is the greatest president we have vere had……..deal with Saudi Arabia….who isn’t our friend. Check. Debt still growing a few billion a day? Check. Disagree with him and he calls you “horseface” and other jr high remarks on Twitter? Check. Can’t pass a budget like his two predesecessors, but somehow knows how government works? Check. Thinks “spending bill” is in the COnstitution. Check. Voted for Bill Clinton twice. Check. Supports no-fault divorce? Check. Supports abortion. Check. Calls out the media on Twitter, and thinks this is “amking america great again”? Check. Illegal immigration hasn’t slowed at all since he became president? Check. My taxes went UP, my social security deduction went up, spending is still going to go up, the swamp hasn’t been drained. No federal jobs cut at all??????? Check. Can’t even bring his own party into some sort of line? Check. Losty control of the House and by more than one or two seats? Check.

    But he’s doing sooooooooooo much for America! Insulting tweets, cocky-funny comments, a wife who loathes him (watch her body language and her actions). This is exactly the kind of president red-pill-guys deserve. He’s a first class a-hole. Yes Hilary would be worse……but to claim this man is the greatest president ever is really sick. They love him all over MGTOW. You had betyter like him too, or you are “wearing a dress” and not a man “going his own way”

    Not a lockstep Trump supporter? MGTOW doesn’t want you. To deny this, like you both have is really pathetic. Read any comments, walk into any forum and say “you disagree with him”

  108. Scott says:

    AR—

    I decided to let er rip my Southern California dialect (I generally try to conceal it) to add entertainment value to the story:

  109. seventiesjason says:

    MGTOW is one thing I know verfy well inside and out and I watched this from the mid 1990’s, and I’ve watched now be hijacked by Game and PUA types who have turned it into a bad “louder with crowder” episode. Slappin’ ypu on the back, “har, har har!” laughter and incessant grandstanding about how amazing they all are. On the other side you have the Incel camp which is tolerated but the clash is coming…..

    It’s going to make Paul Elams attempting to co-opt MGTOW and turn it into MRA look like a spat on a rainy afternoon. The scene will splinter from this. Game / PUA types have Ego’s the size of God. Men like MGTOW John juast want TV exposure, and then get all righteous that he planned that horrible interview is a part of his real plan to make MGTOW acceptable to the mainstream. He came off as a cocky overweight guy griping about how “unfair” it is to be a man today……..and most of the scene gave him thunderous applause and insulted the news who interviewed him.

    What got me banned from Happy Humble Hermit was saying: Gee, MGTOW John went on TV and spoke with HOSTILE media, expecting them to give an ear and listen…..and of course it was a female interviewing him…..so of course she was just gonna be awed with how (acough) Alpha he was and blow him before the taping…..and be convinced of how men have a raw deal……..and he was talking like MRA not MGTOW….and MGTOW John also does prepping videos, or used to……back in 2012 he made this video explaining that when SHTF “women were gonna give preppers amazing sex and thrown themselves at them”

    Hardly a reason to prep in my opinion……but hailed as brilliant.

    From Stardusk, BarBar and early Sandman to “its unfair…..mean mean women, evil women……good for only one thing………Trump 2020………donate money top my patreon, if you need help you just have to be Alpha……….and always…………..ALWAYS a Jewish conspiracy thrown in as well.”

    It’s a scene that has devolved, and it deserves to fall apart at this point…..the men who have “gone their own way” left a long, long time ago

  110. feeriker says:

    First female Viper demo team pilot removed from position after 2 weeks:

    This is massive.

    Yes. She clearly did something catastrophically dangerous/reckless/stupid to have been relieved from such a high visibility position, something that couldn’t be easily swept under the rug and just allow her to continue and have her male comrades cover for her. The “lack of confidence in her leadership” is a red herring, a dodge, a cover story. One doesn’t relieve a high-visibility token for something that trivial. This woman was relieved because they had to relieve her.

    We’ll find out eventually what actually happened. The feminazis are going to go ballistic and scream bloody murder over this until the Air Force Chief of Staff has no choice but to go public in order to protect (what little remains of) the service’s reputation.

  111. Yer says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    Lol. Go review the story of David & Bathsheba in view of hypergamy & preselection. “It’s good to be the king” game works fairly reliably.

    I’m well aware of the fact that people define “game” differently, and don’t wish to open that can of worms again. Yes, by defining game broadly (i.e. “a set of behaviors that facilitates attraction”), it is universally desirable, and King David had it in droves. You won’t find any argument against this from me. However, if Nathan ends up attacking the manosphere’s use of “game”, I personally guarantee he’ll attack a narrow definition of “game” (i.e. pickup artist tactics). Blue-pilled evangelicals always attack the manosphere by defining game as a series of conscious and performative PUA tactics (e.g. negging, dread, DHV, etc.), and it is this narrow definition I intended to address.

    My point was that no man in a traditional (Biblical) marriage should have to consciously “neg his wife to establish higher value.” He may playfully tease her, and he definitely is viewed as high-value within his home (i.e. he’s using the same mechanism of attraction)–however he isn’t reading her lines from /r/seduction on Reddit. From the post I originally linked to: “The answer to the question of why Christians need game is because Christians have adopted feminism over the Bible.”

  112. ray says:

    Scrutinizer — ‘A few months ago, I was at a gathering with other friends (mostly/all 20s and 30s), and we ate pizza off plates. I collected the plates afterwards to put them in the sink or whatever. It was a small gesture, but Christians should have a servant-hearted attitude.’

    There you go.

    A couple months ago, after a storm at this tiny tourist town, the beach was littered with deadfall and shore washup. The beach = the money and from the outdoor surfside restaurant I watched a couple of middle-aged American men spend twenty minutes cleaning the beach before heading over to eat.

    As they came up I applauded, they came over and turned out they were Christian Bostonians, we got along well and broke bread.

    During this time of year most of the clientele at my daily restaurant are foreigners. When I’m done eating, I take my plate, utensils and crud to the washers at the restaurant rear. Humility is practice practice practice for proud goofs like ourselves. Every little bit useful, not to mention educative for dining foreigners, who tend predictably towards wealth, narcissism and arrogance.

    Last week a girl at a local grocery sweetly called me ‘papa’. Seen me around. Here, there are no delusions of Equality. At the aforementioned restaurant, some of the staff call me ‘don ___’ (my first name)

    Show respect, receive respect. I hope, Scrutinizer, that your friends were paying attention.

  113. Gunner Q says:

    seventiesjason @ 6:48 pm:
    “Billy & Gunner. Go to any MGTOW comment section, join any Dischord for MGTOW, call into TFM (which I did about two months ago) and explained a situation that I did not agree with President Trump on.”

    I admit I don’t do anything with Dischord. Funny that you should mention Turd Flinging Monkey, however. TFM’s behavior towards his sex doll has become so pathological that I believe he’s slid from MGTOW into Mens’ Rights Activism. I don’t know if you’re still reading my blog but link below. TFM’s already lost a friend who tried a public intervention and I figure it’s only a matter of time before he converts to Islam.

    https://gunnerq.com/2019/01/30/mgtow-life-the-wages-of-sex-dolls/

    A fascinating but sad story. Instead of walking away from women, TFM tried replacing women with a sex doll. Turns out that the consequences for a man pedestalizing a fake woman are the same as pedestalizing a real woman: emotional investment in the modern gynocracy. Hence his enthusiasm for Trump, Islam and other current “winners”: “They’re finally taking womens’ rights away!” But they observably aren’t.

    TFM isn’t MGTOW anymore because he’s fallen in love. He’s no longer free to walk away.

    Which episode has your call-in, if you don’t mind my asking? I believe I’ve missed it.

    As for your other points, I also have noticed more people calling themselves MGTOW (especially on youTube) who in truth, are either controlled opposition or fakes looking to cash in. But we aren’t defined by them any more than the taxman can define a church.

    Red Pill Latecomer @ 5:40 pm:
    “The 29-year-old business owner and her husband, a semi-pro kayaker, share a four-bedroom home with three male roommates “to reduce costs in the very expensive city of Seattle,” she says. “It allows us to have a home in a really expensive city with a deck, a backyard, a basement — and we are able to pay half the rate that we would living on our own.”

    I bet that female is more leveraged than Archimedes at infinity. It burns to think the reason I can’t afford a home is brainless yuppies maxing out their credit lines in their twenties.

  114. seventiesjason says:

    YS:

    I thought about your comment to me, and I had to actually think for a minute, not because what you posed was hard, but it actually was honest and not a dig at me.

    * I don’t think Scott was being serious. He has said things over my time here…..and they are not really polite, and he does this to goad me and make me look more like a fool than I already am viewed as or to prove his perceptions about me…………yeah, I don’t trust him and his actions towards me.

    *Out in what the Mohawks called “the boonies” or “the sticks” well YS, I grew up in this world. My hometown in New York State was about 800 people…….northern Essex County……Adirondack State Park and rural. The summers were humid, the winters came early and were harsh. The girls I knew before I was trucked and dumped into a boys prep school down in Albany (few hours drive south) during my 10th grade year…..seemed well, interested in only dating guys who had dirty engineering boots on, long hair and cars made of bondo, and rust. They all seemed to collect teddy bears, and just wanted a mess o babies by the time they were twenty. Hairbear hairstyles, and conversation that bordered on which boy they liked, which boys they had blown and which boys were losers. I was in that last category……and coming from them? Kind glad they put me there.

    *Returning over the decades from college, grad school. california and overseas to visit the homestead……….they hadn’t changed. They were just older. None saw me now at 23, 26, 32, 35, 40, or 44 (the last time I was at the house before dad sold it and moved) as a catch….they in fact saw themselves as the catch. Down home “country girls” that were the “better looking” ones all tended to like guys named Shane who drove a muscle car and looked and behaved like Kid Rock in that movie “Joe Dirt”

    I appreciate your honesty and admiting that it would be really hard for a man my age. That’s a truth and a fact. I also know that I am not going to meet a nineteen year old virgin who “knows” shes into older guys…….I’m not that good looking.

    I do miss where I grew up as I get older…..the mountains…….streams…….countless memories as a boy and teenager…….nothing to do on a Saturday…..just walking into my back yard which was forest…and you could walk miles and miles before hitting another road. I miss the way the sun reflects on the water of the countless lakes, ponds and vlys. I miss the smell of pine, cedar, hemlock and the beautiful ancient beauty of a place I was lucky enough to grow up in.

    I thank you for your prayers. You did bring some perspective to this.

  115. info says:

    @7887
    This is why its best to have hypergamy in moderation.
    Since is not evil in itself since it appears to be inbuilt by God.

  116. seventiesjason says:

    Gunner…..I’ll look over my notes…it was a few months back when HHH and someone else was on. I got berated for voted for a “simp” (Gary Johnson) “who is a white knight and did nothing for New Mexico” (lets’ see, vetoed a budget 20 times….no “spending bills” reduced the states debt in half. Cut taxes, built and fixed roads, reduced welfare rolls,…..and he’s one of the few Ameircans that has ascended Mt. Everest (yeah…..a real simp…as if….a real tough guy IMHO), has qualified in many races in cycling across the country…….started a business from scrtach and sold it for a huge profit……..(but he’s dumb, he’s not a real alpha…………)

    It was probably the most embarassing moment for me in MGTOW or being online for that matter. His cheering section all chanted “Trump! Trump! Trump!” in the comment section……he in his usal passive-aggressive way cut me to shreds, would not let me get a word in…then cuts me off and then says “Oh…can’t defend himself so he hangs up.”

    I disagreed with how he is using Twitter, and he’s not following the Constitution……you submit a BUDGET, then congress debates it and folows the process. “Spending Bills” are a W Bush thing, and Obama thing. It’s not how you “run” (ruin) the country.

    Boy I was schooled……I didn’t understand bc I was too stupid to see that “He’s the greatest president we have ever had” it was awful. It’s just embarassing. I quit watching him after that, it was two…three months ago……I’ll find it for you.

  117. Sharkly says:

    as for this Chivalry thing Dalrock is stuck on……..I never knew a medieval code that was for warfare somehow in 1324 or whatever ruined marriage in 2019. I still fail to see the connection

    Don’t feel bad Jason, It took me a while to see it. I also have zero interest in King Arthur stories, Or literary criticism, Etc.

    Most of us Red Pilled folks know the church, and therefore society is very sick. Many people can see that “feminism” has resulted in horrible fruit. But the church thinks that the problem is that our steadily degenerating society is infecting the church and making the church sick. However the problem is the church is carrying a virus. The western church has AIDS and is spreading it throughout our culture, gradually loosening the moral control on society that the church holds. Whenever society asks for more licentiousness, the conservatives/churchians are happy to chivalrously give it to them, however they grumble and pretend that they really hate to fold so easily. What Dalrock is doing is to go back and examine the origin of the infection, in hopes of finding a cure, a treatment, or a way to stop the spreading. And trying to isolate the infectious agent. The churchians don’t realize they are sick, and the carrier of the sickness to others. Churchians just complain about the symptoms they see in others and try to come up with ways to minimize or hide those symptoms. The churchians don’t realize that they are leading the nations astray with their false teaching. The churchian’s seed is metaphorically infected with AIDS. They are spreading their false teaching. Yet the churchians deludedly believe that false teaching usually comes from the irreligious or from people who attend infrequently. When the false teaching is actually being passed down to their teachers in seminary and through churchian training in “Courtly Love/Chivalry/Romantic notions/idolizing women, Etc.” Dalrock is saying,(just my paraphrase) the church picked up the AIDS virus when they dropped their pants bent over and took “courtly love” up their ass. And while the church had HIV for a long time without seemingly much effect, today the western church is almost useless and so immuno-compromised that any little(wind of false doctrine) sickness can render churchians useless and bedridden. Dalrock has isolated the virus and pinpointed when the church picked it up. And he is spreading the word about what he has discovered. In hopes that it will help with the finding and delivering of the cure.

    I’ve stolen some quotes from above, to make a thought path:

    You think you are going to impact the relations between men and women in a Christian sense when indeed most men are at my intelligence range?

    Yes, that is the goal. To return all men to their lofty position of a patriarchal head, where women crave and treasure the smallest bit of attention from a man, their acknowledged lords. While realizing women can never attain to the greatness God has bestowed on all men by nature of their creation. So that a hypergamous woman will crave a man, and seek out a “lord” early in her life, to assure she gets a man, and work hard to keep him as her external beauty fades.

    …the current putrid waters of feminism, which now pervades and dominates every face[t] of a young man’s life. Most of this misandry crammed into him while he is utterly defenseless by his own mother or his Church pastor or Sunday school teachers.

    As a general rule, Western women basically hate Western men.

    A lot of guys reading aren’t married because the supply of submissive wives is so low.

    …being sexy isn’t a sign of virtue in a man. Betas are careful and loyal and this makes them boring and less sexy than exciting badboys. Marriage is fundamentally Beta, it is a public and legal declaration of “oneitis”.

    religion granted the average honorable (boring) man status.

    Or at the very least didn’t undercut him. I think a lot of the status was mostly shown and enforced by life; religious or otherwise. The ordering of man-over-woman relations is evident in the natural world according to St. Paul (“Has nature not taught you…?”)

    The Apostle Paul taught us that by nature, or creation, Man alone was in the image of God, and to be head over the woman.

    1 Corinthians 11:3a 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man;
    1 Corinthians 11:4-5a Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:
    1 Corinthians 11:7-9 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    I think a man’s divine image and glory and lordship over his wife, needs to be diligently taught and upheld by the church, as part of a return to a right state with God and a right state between the sexes.

    Psalm 82:6-7 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are sons of the Most High.
    7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
    And fall like any one of the princes.”

    John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    We are God’s image on earth, His ambassadors, images to be reverenced,(Ephesians 5:33) idols, gods. We are the image of Christ, the last Adam, while our wives are the image of the church to be cleansed by us through washing with the word of God.(Ephesians 5:26)

    The churchians have God’s image all wrong. My wife’s new church falsely teaches in their “statement of faith” that, “all humanity is created in the image of God“. Not only do they blasphemously exalt women to gods, but they emasculate and feminize God our Father reducing Him to a womanly goddess who shed’s her stinky rotting blood for us at least once every month, and gets cranky and emotional during her bloody uncleanness.

    Men alone being in the image and glory of God, to be reverenced as lords, is what hypergamous women need to be solidly taught in their formative years. And that, should they be fortunate enough to win the favor of a man, they could become the helper to a god, and unite with the image of God, into one flesh, through the unitive and uplifting sacrament of fleshly(sexual) communion & consummation to be often repeated with their husband in ravishing ecstasy and with great thankfulness.

    Proverbs 5:18-19 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

    We won’t get there with hypergamous women thinking they’re equally in the image of God, and therefore equal to men, in what matters most, their own divinity. And male headship will always be oppressive, if women are gods too, most especially the headship of the 80% of men who are thought to be below average, by women. And by below average, they mean far below them, because all women are above average just for being born as morally superior Daughters of the King. Women are better don’t cha know. /S

    We’ve got to free them from their delusion and shitty attitude through the truth of God’s word, and teach them to reverence the image of God, which all men are.

  118. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott
    I decided to let er rip my Southern California dialect

    Surf’s up, dude!

    Thanks for all that, too.

  119. BillyS says:

    OKR,

    We are talking about his whining about not finding a wife. The examples you repeated note that he is fully capable of mastering some areas of his life and makes the point you chastise Splashman for even better. Yet he just complains that he can’t do anything about his relationships with women, we all hate him, etc. Oh woe is him, based on what he writes.

    I think he is more capable than I am and has a much better future ahead of him. He may never get the wife he wants, but that doesn’t mean his life must be useless, something he seems to believe.

    I am not sure why he is here if he dislikes it so much and thinks we all hate him though. That would indicate something more.

  120. BillyS says:

    Jason,

    Go to a Linux board and shout how much Windows does any specific thing better and you will get just as much vitriol. I could get a bunch of it if I went to many forums (even “Christian ones”) and said how much I liked Trump. That is the nature of online discussions. People act nastier when they can hide behind their keyboard.

    I may challenge you hard, but I would have no problem sitting down and eating a meal with you, as long as it wasn’t all complaining of course and you could listen a bit.

    I will tell you that I am often accused of being very negative myself, so I know how it is. You need to actively balance that if it is in your personality. It is especially hard going through this stuff. I don’t know your situation, but I have had major betrayal and now find myself fully alone in life. I would argue that it is worse because of the betrayal, but it definitely hurts as well. I have no idea why God seemed to choose this path for me, but I must walk it whether He choose it (allowed or whatever you want to call it).

    I can relate to pain, far more than I would like. But you have to eventually get over it. Stop participating in places that cause you grief. Though I bet you really do know that most here want to see the best for you. You may always disagree with some, but try to evaluate what they are saying and see what you can learn. Stop complaining as much and adapt what you can.

    I don’t know if I could ever have quit smoking if I had started (my mother smoked a lot and I easily could have been hooked) knowing my personality. You beat drugs which is far harder. (At least I assume so, seeing that my sister never could get away from them and they eventually took her life.)

    You are far more capable than you realize, but you won’t get much compassion if you just whine about how you are stuck alone or that all the advice you get here sucks.

  121. BillyS says:

    RPL,

    I am still behind you in things I bet then, even though I am past you in age. I really do want a faithful wife, though I think that is almost impossible now. I don’t have as much to offer and very few potential candidates I would be attracted to exist.

  122. BillyS says:

    Jason,

    I would also agree to avoid MGTOW discussion places. I have never been to any, but I bet they are far more passionate than even FeministHater here.

    I would probably also disagree with you about your complaint with Trump, if it came from a progressive stance, but you are free to believe whatever and debating it here is not the point of the blog. (I did not think highly of Trump due to his past behavior, but I got swayed and realized he is not a Church leader, but a president doing far more of what I sought under Reagan than I have ever seen.)

    I do bet Scott was quite sincere. He is an intense man, but I can’t see him intentionally lying.

  123. That’s a great point. The MGTOW logo is very descriptive. Men deciding to take the road less traveled. No wife. No children. Mitigated legal, financial and emotional risks. Pursuit of freedom and more fruitful and rewarding life endeavors.

    Single road at angle:
    https://store.hallsigns.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/W2-3.png&maxx=600&maxy=0

  124. OKRickety says:

    BillyS,

    “We are talking about his whining about not finding a wife. The examples you repeated note that he is fully capable of mastering some areas of his life and makes the point you chastise Splashman for even better.”

    I would like to help seventiesjason and have made some effort in that direction which was not well received (perhaps that is why he didn’t answer my simple questions earlier on this thread). I don’t know how to help him, but I am fairly certain that Splashman’s approach was not the solution. In fact, I would characterize his statements to be essentially “man up”, and we know how well that is received by most men. The other common category of response here seems to be AMOG. That is, this worked for me, therefore it will work for you. Well, just like I believe NAWALT but the vast majority are, I don’t think there is an easy, simple formula that will always work for every man.

    Mostly, I read what Jason writes in the hope that I will see an opportunity to help. Unfortunately, that is rare. As far as I can tell, Jason shoots down responses almost immediately (in that regard, he strongly reminds me of my ex-wife). I wish for signs of change but I don’t see it.

  125. Game is profoundly disruptive because not only are men highly motivated to be sexually successful to satisfy sexual desire, but as a society we equate the ability to attract/seduce women with virtue in men. Women’s arousal is seen as anything from a holy sanctifying force needed to purify marital sex to the very words of God by modern Christians. This near universal belief that women’s sexual desires point to male virtue is rooted in chivalry, which … also explains why Game is such a threat to our values.

    This is why I contend, whether one calls Courtly Love “chivalry” or something else, that it and Game are really two sides of the same error. “Opposite” errors in the sense of which sex is elevated as supreme, but tending toward the same end– profligate and immoral sex– in both cases. It’s only one-or-t’other in the way the nickel on your desk shows either Jefferson’s face or Monticello. Heads or tails, it’s just one coin. The Aristotelian Mean, or the narrow road, between them means to make it not about sex at all. Make it about Christ: Joshua 24:15.

  126. BillyS says:

    OKR,

    We may not disagree that much then. I have a hard time keeping straight “who said what” in the discussions related to some topics. I thought you were arguing against holding him to account. That seems wrong based on your reply. Sorry for that then.

    I do agree that the advice does not seem to stick, not matter how it is presented.

    My exwife would disagree with me even when she agreed at times, so I can relate on that point. (ME: “The ceiling is up”, HER: “No, the ceiling is up”)

  127. Oscar says:

    My exwife would disagree with me even when she agreed at times, so I can relate on that point. (ME: “The ceiling is up”, HER: “No, the ceiling is up”) ~ BillyS

    And that, right there, gentlemen, is the very definition of “contentious”.

    contentious (adjective) con·​ten·​tious | \ kən-ˈten(t)-shəs \
    Definition of contentious
    1 : likely to cause disagreement or argument
    2 : exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes

    I’ve spent a lot of time in desert lands, even desert lands where everyone wanted to kill me, and I’d rather dwell there than with a contentious woman.

  128. Novaseeker says:

    I think the core of Jason’s struggles was clarified on a recent thread at DS’s blog. Apparently the issues that has had with women stem from the fact that he has a rather unattractive face, relative to even average male faces. This is the obstacle he faces, so things are difficult for him as a result of that. I don’t think further advice is going to be that helpful for him, in light of that, and that may be why he generally doesn’t react well to the advice when it comes.

  129. Anonymous Reader says:

    Yer
    However, if Nathan ends up attacking the manosphere’s use of “game”, I personally guarantee he’ll attack a narrow definition of “game” (i.e. pickup artist tactics).

    So what

    Blue-pilled evangelicals always attack the manosphere by defining game as a series of conscious and performative PUA tactics (e.g. negging, dread, DHV, etc.), and it is this narrow definition I intended to address.

    Your plan is to pre-emptively capitulate to the blue-pill TradCons in order to avoid surrender?

    My point was that no man in a traditional (Biblical) marriage should have to consciously “neg his wife to establish higher value.”

    Why stop there? No man in a Biblical marriage should ever have to consciously rebuke his wife, or even correct her behavior, because she should “just get it” and always do the right thing for the right reason. Just like Eve did…

    He may playfully tease her, and he definitely is viewed as high-value within his home (i.e. he’s using the same mechanism of attraction)–however he isn’t reading her lines from /r/seduction on Reddit.

    Very generous of you to allow men to tease their wives. Very generous, indeed..

  130. There are two possible sources for the Alpha/Beta ratings, and they’re not mutually exclusive (heck, one might have been based on the other). The first, most likely, is the wolfpack psychology studies of dominant and submissive behaviors among wolves in zoos (I don’t recall the date). There’s a clear tendency to select for strength and mating privileges among the males, and among the females, with “Alphas” being those most successful at bullying their own way to the top. This turns out, of course, to be rather artificial, as wild packs are generally more familial in their kinship than those in zoos (artificially non-familial packs, in order to breed healthily in a smaller set), and wild wolves treat their kin more like kinfolk than like blood-rivals. (Again, I wish I knew the reference to source that.)

    The other, which I think predates the wolf studies, is Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, with its castes decanted from Alpha to Epsilon and bred for caste-calibrated levels of intellect, strength, compliance, et cetera. Huxley’s “Alphas” are essentially brahmin in their sensualist dystopia. And everyone except wild savages wears caste-colored uniforms, so when the protag, an Alpha, brings his boss’ estranged son “back” into civilization (his Beta mother had raised him on a reservation after she found herself accidently pregnant— long story), the young man wears nothing but white, because he is “outside of” the Alpha-Beta-Gamma system.

    And that’s the trouble with red-pill soma-pushers: they tell guys to Be The Alpha when even the Alphas are stuck in the same caste system. Further, if everyone is The Alpha, then there can be no Alphas, as its very existence implies that of Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and as many castes as the system will sustain. That’s also why not everyone can be The Leader, and most never will.

  131. Vox Day has a hierarchy of ranking? Hadn’t heard of it.

    Sure, I’ve heard of him, Mr. Rabid-Puppies and so on, but I did not know he weighed in on Red Pills.

  132. I’m not sure Bnonn doesn’t “also accept that everyone is fallen.” He’s a Calvinist, after all.

    From what I’ve seen, and despite their mutual displeasure with one another, he and Dalrock are usually BOTH right, but their targeted issues are somewhat different.

  133. Anonymous Reader says:

    J.J. Griffing
    This is why I contend, whether one calls Courtly Love “chivalry” or something else, that it and Game are really two sides of the same error. “Opposite” errors in the sense of which sex is elevated as supreme,

    Your contention is wrong, and based on at least one false premise.

  134. Anonymous Reader says:

    J.J. Griffing
    I’m not sure Bnonn doesn’t “also accept that everyone is fallen.” He’s a Calvinist, after all.

    People say lots of things. Sometimes their actions agree with the words. Sometimes they do not.

  135. Novaseeker says:

    Vox Day has a hierarchy of ranking? Hadn’t heard of it. Sure, I’ve heard of him, Mr. Rabid-Puppies and so on, but I did not know he weighed in on Red Pills.

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/03/socio-sexual-hierarchy.html

    Vox had a whole side blog (that one) dedicated to red pill stuff.

  136. Oscar says:

    @ J. J. Griffing

    I’m not sure Bnonn doesn’t “also accept that everyone is fallen.” He’s a Calvinist, after all.

    Plenty of Calvinists behave as though Total Depravity does not apply to women.

  137. “Feminism was a reaction to chivalry,” Cane? By my reading (and Dalrock’s, I think), feudal-matriarch feminism by Eleanor of Aquitaine and her ilk was the mother of that mockery of martial manhood now popularly called “Chivalry.” Of course, the Cult-of-the-Blessed-Virgin in medaeval Catholicism didn’t help either. Nor with the error that sex itself was somehow un-Christian and impure de facto, thus excusing extra-marital liaisons as little worse than matrimonial ones, and if there wasn’t [confessed to be] carnal deeds involved, adulterous “love” was portrayed as more pure than a man’s love for his wife. So the only sin that some will admit to Launcelot’s account is that he and Guenevere “went too far.” No. It’s a lot worse than that.

    In the “Tristram” story, Iseult Blac-Mains* is a tragic afterthought, but the reader is to laud and cheer for Tristram’s courting of Iseult of Cornwall, right up until her jealous husband kills both of ’em when he catches them together.
    “But Tristram, you fool,” I always want to shout, “the other Iseult* Is. Your. Wedded Wife!” What part of Proverbs 6 and 7 did these “Christian knights” not understand? (All the more reason the Bible MUST be taught in the common tongue.)

  138. As for this Chivalry thing Dalrock is stuck on……..I never knew a medieval code that was for warfare somehow in 1324 or whatever ruined marriage in 2019. I still fail to see the connection.

    We’re not talking about historical “martial” chivalry (Dalrock and I have circled that semantic maypole a turn or two) here, the sort that survives in the Scout Oath and Scout Law (when those meant something) or the Bushido code or in the dilution marketed as the “Army Values.” We’re talking here exclusively of the “Roman de la Rose,” and “Knight of the Cart” and “Tristram and Iseult” codswallop called “Courtly Love” by post-medaeval literature professors. The storybook drivel that makes allegedly-heroic warriors into silk-kerchiefed patsies for bored hussies like the Proverbs 7 adulteress. What’s left of it (and there’s quite a bit, thanks in part to Malory and Tennyson and Queen Vicky, et al) is what we popularly call “chivalry” anymore.

    In fact, medaeval “courtly love” romances were perhaps as accurate in depicting their characters– and maybe served the same function for much the same functional demographic of sexually stunted academics– as are the Fifty Shades books and comparable rubbish today. Now, whether Stephanie Meyer is today’s Thomas Malory, or Malory was his own generation’s Stephanie Meyer, I’m not sure I even want to know which is worse.

  139. Hey, we’ve all been there in any given subject. And for my own part (I can’t speak for everyone), one of my faults is an inordinate pleasure in digging into the fine-combed meanings and nuances of things, sometimes completely missing the bystanding audience. Paul says to one of the churches that they should be mature enough for doctrinal meat instead of being so reliant on the basic milk of it— but nowhere do I see that grown meat-eaters should stop drinking milk along with their meat, either literal or doctrinal. (I hope I haven’t lost you already.)

    So here’s the bottom line. God created Adam, then Eve. He called men (and not women) to lead their own households and master their own domains, and to be the spiritual heads of their own families. Not every man CAN be a Leader Of Men, nor is he called to. But he is called the head of his home, and commanded to love his wife, and she’s commanded to submit to her husband. In fact, a seemingly plain reading of Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 7, 1 Peter 3, and other chapters would indicate that when a man (even an unsaved man) gives his wife an order that is not itself sinful, she is required under God to obey.

    But her husband’s not off the hook, being commanded to love her, to nourish her, to pray for her and teach her from the Word, to lay his life down for her as Christ did for the church. In fact, the way Paul puts it makes it sound like marriage and sex themselves are intrinsically about, as in “designed to point men to,” Christ and His bride.

  140. Anon says:

    Novaseeker,

    I think the core of Jason’s struggles was clarified on a recent thread at DS’s blog. Apparently the issues that has had with women stem from the fact that he has a rather unattractive face, relative to even average male faces. This is the obstacle he faces, so things are difficult for him as a result of that. I don’t think further advice is going to be that helpful for him, in light of that, and that may be why he generally doesn’t react well to the advice when it comes.

    I don’t think that is it at all. A bad face isn’t the end of anything, particularly if a man is tall (unless an actual eye is missing or something).

    The real reason for his difficulties, as I ascertained before, is his Polish heritage. That has a high correlation with betatude and the incel life.

  141. BillyS says:

    Novaseeker,

    So then the picture he used here at one point was someone else I guess. The face on that was not bad. A man’s face will not limit all women either, so I am not sure I buy that. Perhaps he has no chance, but he still needs to stop just complaining and figure out what he really wants.

    It comes across like he just wants us to go “oh poor Jason” and to commiserate with him. That will not help anyone. He will definitely not get a good wife if he keeps doing what he has already been doing.

  142. I want to be kind to others, including women, but kind acts I perform should not derive from my being a single man aiming to please women.

    When you treat women with favouritism, I wonder if you become a “respecter of persons” – something that God isn’t.

    Amen! Perhaps one of the best Famous Quotes™ on real manliness was in Braveheart when Wallace says Ego nunquam pronunciari mendacium! Sed ego sum homo indomitus.
    “I never tell lies! But I am a savage.”

    [A quote should be famous because it is worth remembering, not vise versa. Most are vise versa, like the Forrest Gump line about chocolates.]

  143. Oscar says:

    @ J. J. Griffing

    “But Tristram, you fool,” I always want to shout, “the other Iseult* Is. Your. Wedded Wife!” What part of Proverbs 6 and 7 did these “Christian knights” not understand?

    They probably never read the Bible. It wasn’t until Wyclifte, Tyndale, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg that reading the Bible became common.

  144. seventiesjason says:

    “Feminism was a reaction to chivalry,” Cane? By my reading (and Dalrock’s, I think), feudal-matriarch feminism by Eleanor of Aquitaine and her ilk was the mother of that mockery of martial manhood now popularly called “Chivalry.” Of course, the Cult-of-the-Blessed-Virgin in medaeval Catholicism didn’t help either. Nor with the error that sex itself was somehow un-Christian and impure de facto, thus excusing extra-marital liaisons as little worse than matrimonial ones, and if there wasn’t [confessed to be] carnal deeds involved, adulterous “love” was portrayed as more pure than a man’s love for his wife. So the only sin that some will admit to Launcelot’s account is that he and Guenevere “went too far.” No. It’s a lot worse than that.”

    huh???????????

    Okay….I’m pretty well read but illiterate. I don’t recall women having the right to “vote” in feudal europe, or anyone having that right for that matter….or women demanding “reproductive rights” in King Arthurs Court. How are you making “Feminism” a reaction to Chivalry…..and again, it’s a code of conduct in war……it has nothing to do with feminism, the romantic love, the cult of Mary……..and it was practiced by sooooooo few. The “elite” the “knights” the upper reaches of that time throughout parts of Europe practiced this.

    Most of the proles didn’t even have a clue of…..they were too busy dying, being worked to death, war, rampage, pestilence, mythical beasts rampaging through their “merry townes” and living their whole life in square area of maybe fifty miles????? They had no need for this, or to worry about it because……as usual………the elect, the elite men, the good looking, the know-it-alls in the respected Kingdoms and culture of that time implemented this code …..and then passed blame to the “peasant” or “commoner” for revolt, being lazy, not alpha enough, a cuck, and somehow making THEM live with the consequnces of this silly code of warfare…..that somehow became Feminism and thus gave us Game……….and all of our problems today are because of a few knights said “polite” things in battle????

    Feminism has more of a root from giving women the right to vote, and what happened here on the home front during world war II than made up stories from 976 AD or whatever.

    This just seems like reinventing the wheel of a problem…but to put modern game and feminism and the roots thereof to a “code” that wasn’t really practiced (and when it was it was by less than 2% of the male population???) after the Rennaissance………

    you guys debating this and discussing this have WAY too much free time on your hands. How about standing up to your church leadership? Correcting them right THERE in your space in your “dominion” and making cases there instead of writing a thesis for your PhD at Stanford or Dartmouth

  145. Anon says:

    BillyS,

    It comes across like he just wants us to go “oh poor Jason” and to commiserate with him.

    Bingo. Jason is a rare male with ‘Nail Girl’ psychology.

    I hope Poke Salad sees this comment, as he will find it funny.

  146. OKRickety says:

    Novaseeker,

    “I think the core of Jason’s struggles was clarified on a recent thread at DS’s blog. Apparently the issues that has had with women stem from the fact that he has a rather unattractive face, relative to even average male faces.”

    I’ve seen that idea floated, but, having seen several photos and some video of him on his now-defunct blog, I do not understand it. Unless he has extremely poor skin not visible in the photos, his face seemed quite ordinary. In other words, my opinion of his appearance seems to be in line with others here.

  147. seventiesjason says:

    Smirks, flips off Anon

    wow I’m genetically predetermined to be incel and a beta because I am Polish….yet they are one of the ONLY countries in Europe that tells the EU and feminism “NO”

    Imagine that……a beta culture of inept men PROTECTING their future…their people, their language and heritage ….oh, but you would view that as being a white knight……yeah……..well, I am sure Roosh has a book about that too.

    And I have this rare complex disorder of “nail girl” psychology that affects women but men like me who are presdisposed to this, because of my natural beta….your hero Dalrock explained about being a beta wasn’t even a bad thing….but you being the coward that you are would never dare challenge him on this or argue…….you think Poke Salad would get a laugh out of this and calling up that as your “sole ally” in matters like this really shows your IQ, and I now think its probably lower than mine.

    Some of the worst in attitude on this forum has not been from me…..a Christian screaming in mental pain………but from you. An angry, belittling man who gets humor out of someone elses suffering or pain. Congrats you won. Has anyone here rewarded you for your insights? No. Has anyone here given you thanks for this? No, not ever actually.

    You can’t compete with your Roosh, your fellow Gamers. You have to hang with “mere Christians” or men striving to this to get a relief from the pain you suffer because what you say or do for help is very evil and very hurtful. You get a “joy” out of it, and your fruit dear sir has been exposed.

    Raises middle finger, lights cigarette, shakes the dust off his sandals and walks on.

  148. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jason, as others have told you, you’re not ugly. Your face is a normal, ordinary man’s face. You’re also very tall, and a good dancer. Big pluses among women.

    I’m guessing there’s something in your personality that turns off women. You just don’t have that charismatic “vibe” that Alpha men have. Most men don’t. You might even have a “bitter vibe” when talking to women. Among women, bitterness is unattractive, signaling “loser.”

    You can either try to learn Game and improve your vibe (allowing that Game provides only varying degrees of success, depending on the man), or go the mellow MGTOW route and seek contentment in other areas of life.

    You, however, sound determined to find a wife, yet equally confident that it can never happen. An unhappy place to be.

  149. OKRickety says:

    Red Pill Latecomer said: “You, however, sound determined to find a wife, yet equally confident that it can never happen. An unhappy place to be.”

    Quite a quandary. In my case, I am determined not to find a wife. I think I am safe as I know of no woman interested in the position.

  150. BillyS says:

    I am wondering if Jason has fallen off the wagon or is just drunk. Those seem like ramblings of someone quite drunk.

    I have stood against more church leadership that you will likely ever know Jason. I got kicked out of at least one church for it as well.

  151. seventiesjason says:

    Billy. I am at work. Behind a desk. In an excellent job. I have not had a drink since 2004. The one promise I have kept was that. My ramblings “seem like ramblings of someone quite drunk”

    You want to go to “court” over that? That’s a pretty serious accusation to a man who beat it, with no help from an “real alpha Christian” mind you.

    No, the ramblings of a drunk in my situation are basically a man who will come at you and tell you “he’s everything”

    Finding AA, and The Salvation Army, and losing everything actually gave me humility and some serious grace…..you know, that thing that Jesus talked about, “grace” that is only allowed for some more than others evidently in 2019 in the “real” church

    You got kicked out a church? Wow. Proud of you. So this church has changed it ways? No? Then you “standing” was a fail…..and am I not better. I failed too….but me failing is expected. A bit shocked by yours.

    Thing is, the ones here “standing on word” and sermonizing, and really calling out the cucks so to speak are like me when I had a nasty cocaine addiction

    I had all the answers to the worlds problems and solutions….but couldn’t kick a cocaine addiction.

    Some of the peanut gallery here are pretty “bold” to name call, smear, and really tear apart…but all the churches in their own town….or speaking with their pastor and calling him out????? No, its easier to get behind a keyboard and insult people genetically, and call friends in like “poke salad” to join in the kicks….

    A big thank you for defending me too over stuff like this from this “Anon” poster btw…..

  152. Paul says:

    @JJG Paul says to one of the churches that they should be mature enough for doctrinal meat instead of being so reliant on the basic milk of it— but nowhere do I see that grown meat-eaters should stop drinking milk along with their meat, either literal or doctrinal.

    The analogy is that of children feeding on human breast-milk versus grown-ups eating solid food. It is not talking about our modern habit of drinking cow-milk as a common beverage. Before pasteurization and refrigerating, drinking milk could be quite dangerous. The Romans looked upon milk drinkers and butter eaters as barbarians. In the Mediterranean climate olive oil did not spoil and was used instead of butter, but cheese was quite popular.

  153. Anon says:

    Note the lengthy, grammatically incorrect, attention-seeking screed from Jason. That too in response to my comment of two lines that was not even addressing him.

    He spectacularly proved that he is a male ‘nail girl’.

    Weak.

  154. ray says:

    I don’t have an answer to OP questions four and five, but instead with Pride present a living example of the answer, a courageous individual embodying the inspiration for which we all strive.

    Of course I mean the current phenomenon of powerlifting, the brave and talented JayCee Cooper. Even as a novice, JayCee (‘Jayce’) is shattering Minnesota bench-press records; soon they’ll have to re-write ALL the record books everywhere, in recognition of JayCee and the many other gutsy leaders emerging PROUDLY from the shadows of prejudice and bias.

    https://pluralist.com/trans-powerlifter-jaycee-cooper-womens-record/

    British terrorist-group ‘Fair Play for Women’ illustrated the kind of Intolerance we must stamp briskly out from the nation, and planet. We ALL count, including Jayce, who has overcome not only massive transphobia from small-minded persons, but also struggles with Crippling Depressions as result of attacks by Fair Play for Women and other regressive elements.

    We are with you in your struggle, Jayce! Don’t listen to the Haters. Rise above like the Champion you deserve to be!

  155. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Sometimes the best woman for a job is a man.

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