Unless the men are *Christian*.

Pastor Michael Foster tweets:

This is a partial picture.  We might call this plan Beta, where plan Alpha is to exhibit dark triad traits.  Plan Beta is the Christian path to attracting a wife, but there are two huge challenges facing a Christian man trying to follow this path.

The first challenge is that Christian women are being taught they are a prize to be won, and they are the pearl of great price.  This leads many Christian women to delay marriage while giving them an immense sense of entitlement that makes them more attracted to men who follow plan Alpha.  This is a relatively new phenomenon.  Not long ago a woman who became eligible to join AARP without marrying would be seen as having failed at finding a husband.  She would be a cautionary tale.  Now a never married woman in her 50s is seen as a wise role model young Christian women should follow:

In this Spirit Connection podcast episode, my special guest is a good friend of mine—Wendy Griffith. She is a co-host of The 700 Club, an anchor/senior reporter for the Christian Broadcasting Network and co-anchors Christian World News on TBN. She’s traveled internationally, reporting on revival and has a powerful gift of the word of knowledge for healing. Wendy authored You Are A Prize To Be Won! Don’t Settle for Less Than God’s Best…

“You know I am 53 and I’ve been single all my life and never married … and you said, ‘you’re going to need strength to wait.’ Honestly that was not the word I wanted to hear.”


“God is going to give you the desires of your heart. Don’t settle. It’s so easy to settle during the waiting … God promises His best to His children. He’s not capable of giving us anything but His best.”

But as big as this challenge is, there is an even bigger challenge for Christian men following plan Beta.  The bigger problem is not with young Christian women, but with older Christian men.  The bigger problem is that Christian men don’t respect respectable men, especially the married fathers they go to church with.  This is readily visible in Christian movies, as well as on Father’s Day.  While there is plenty of detail in the previous two links, you can see this just as well by comparing two pictures.  Here is how modern Christians view badboy biker tattoo artists (plan Alpha).   Here is how modern Christians view married Christian fathers (plan Beta).  Anyone who tells you modern Christians think the plan Beta man is the sexier option is fooling themselves.  For context and to see both images at once, see this post by Larry Kummer at Fabius Maximus.

Obviously none of this changes the fact that the moral path for a Christian man is plan Beta.  However, that path is much harder than it should be due to the modern Christian fear of telling women no and our contempt for respectable men.  This is cruel to both young men and young women, as well as the children who grow up in the anti family modern Christian culture.

Edit:  Pastor Foster posted a follow up tweet including the comment he left below.

See Also:  

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This entry was posted in Aging Feminists, Disrespecting Respectability, Game, Pastor Michael Foster, Turning a blind eye, Wendy Griffith. Bookmark the permalink.

138 Responses to Unless the men are *Christian*.

  1. Echo4November says:

    Both the alpha and beta links are the biker

  2. Echo4November says:

    Nvm, my error.

    [D: You were right. I fixed it right after hitting publish.]

  3. Lexet Blog says:

    It’s no surprise that the largest family ministry runs a singles ministry, headed by a post wall woman.

    It’s also no surprise I was banned from their page for asking them to treat the scriptures appropriately, and also asking them to be consistent in who they criticized.

    The straight truth of the matter: there is deadwood and chaff in the church. Burn it.

  4. thedeti says:

    Everyone in Christian ministries ignores the simple fact that Christian women want good looking, fit, dominant, confident men with good, high paying, high status jobs. Or, leave out the “job” part – they don’t care about what he does, just so long as he has money and is willing to invest that money in her.

    It’s important to look your best. It’s important to be fit and to lose weight. It’s important to get in the gym and lift weights. It’s important to be your best, so that you’re comfortable in your own skin. It just isn’t enough to have a good high paying job. Maybe it should be, but it just isn’t.

  5. In general, women are definitely attracted to men of status. That is what this pastor meant by, “You’ll attract a woman by getting men to respect you.”

    In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.”

    I don’t believe women are the prize. Nothing I teach suggests that to be the case. And aiming to be a man of status isn’t plan beta. Making women or sex your mission is plan beta.

  6. Dalrock’s posts crystallized something I had seen but not understood during my years as a Boy Scout troop leader. These days even very conservative men raise very feminist daughters.

    They encourage their daughters to act like boys. That’s what earns their praise and respect. There is, imo, no more powerful way to produce radically feminist daughters. Such conservative Dads want their girls to become strong in the sense boys are strong. They teach them to shoot, giving them a special kind of aggressive self-confidence – it’s the equivalent for young girls of “fifteen minutes of alpha” for women. They often teach (or attend lessons) in fighting (nicely packaged as self-defense or martial arts). Above all, they teach their daughters that careers and independence are the primary virtues.

    My guess is that in ten years I’ll be hearing many of these fathers explain that there are no men “good enough” for their girls and that men today won’t “man up. They will see no connection between their “conservative” child-rearing and lack of grandchildren.

    There were exceptions, of course. Especially the Mormon families.

  7. Jesus Rodriguez de la Torre says:

    I took the more Biblical path. At 22 I asked my parents to find me a wife. After declining the first 4 and explaining more clearly what I wanted, I married candidate 5 after 5 months of first meeting her. 37 years, 4 kids, very happy to an obedient wife who fears Christ as I do.
    My oldest daughter did the same. 2 days after she asked and the men I study Bible prayed, God brought a suitor and 21 days later they were married. That was 8 years ago and 2 grand daughters (would be more but she encountered severe health problems after the second).
    I am not promoting arranged marriage. I am promoting arranged courtship by those who may know you best, your family, especially if they are serious Christians. This seems to be the ancient way.

    I cannot speak to earning respect, or to the labels alpha and beta (which actually refer to a reproductive strategy not biologically possible for humans). I have never bothered with earning respect. It has come to me by trainloads all my life. It seems the less that I care about what people think of me, the more respect they have after they get over the shock of whatever I say to offend when they first meet me. My last interview as medical supervisor began with me telling the head of the company on first meet “I am eccentric, very difficult to get along with and I have no interest in changing.” By the end he was telling me that I could not be that difficult given my career path. For another example, when I met my wife, I had not bathed in 3 weeks. That woman left never wanting to see me again because I was crazy. After quoting her Billy Joel, “you may be right, I may be crazy, but it’s a lunatic you’re looking for” she married me in less than 1 month from my proposal (4 month of courtship where I told her I was evaluating to see if she was really a Christian). Sunday school is basically a place where I destroy the lesson plan within 5 minutes. Me and 2 other guys often engage in loud impassioned arguments and it is fun, really fun, while the teacher referees. Sometimes it is standing room only because at least some actually care what the Bible says. I have no use for the pastor, or assistant pastor. They hold their jobs as political appointments. Read what Christ thinks of the professional clergy in Mat 22 and 23, it has always been so.
    There is something to “pursue righteousness and the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you” especially in a country where your head does not get chopped off for doing so. Stop trying to attract anybody. I am not a biker, nor have tattoos, but within a few minutes of speaking with me you will know I am not going to be what you want. I am going to be me until God does not approve. Having a spine does not mean you need to be a “bad boy”. We used to know that when John Wayne was still alive.

  8. Dalrock says:

    Welcome Pastor Foster,

    In general, women are definitely attracted to men of status. That is what this pastor meant by, “You’ll attract a woman by getting men to respect you.”

    In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.”

    I agree with that, in general. The problem for a young man is that Christian men are (in general) astonishingly miserly with respect for men who work hard to gain respect.

  9. thedeti says:

    In general, women are definitely attracted to men of status. That is what this pastor meant by, “You’ll attract a woman by getting men to respect you.”

    Women are attracted to those men for relationships. But they aren’t necessarily sexually attracted to those men. And sexual attraction, or “chemistry” if the term “sexual attraction” makes you squeamish, is crucial to a marriage. A marriage without sexual attraction is painful and difficult for both the man and the woman.

    In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.”

    That’s all very well and good, but it’s not sufficient in and of itself. You must also look your best. You must also be able to generate, or at least spur on, some sexual attractiveness. You must also be masculine. You must also be assertive, bold, and inquisitive.

    This is where ministries “teaching” men always fail: They always neglect to tell men to cultivate physical fitness, making themselves physically appealing, and traditional masculinity.

  10. @thedeti I’d make a distinction between attraction and arousal. They are related but clearly distinct.

  11. BillyS says:

    JRdlT,

    You married under a very different regime. That definitely helped you as well.

    I am personally all in favor of arranged marriages, but we need much more support after that point as well, and that is missing almost everywhere, unfortunately.

  12. Making women or sex your mission is plan beta.

    This. There is nothing more inherently low status in a man than for a woman to be the most important thing in his life. It means he puts her above God and their children at the very least. That is hardcore fedora-wearing, neckbeard “m’lady” territory.

  13. Novaseeker says:

    Obviously none of this changes the fact that the moral path for a Christian man is plan Beta.

    Hmm. I’d say the plan is “moral alpha” rather than a beta. The beta mindset kills men really. I know we need worker bees and so on, but I don’t think being one is a good life plan for a Christian man.

  14. 7817 says:

    @Michael S. Foster 

    In general, women are definitely attracted to men of status.

    True, this is part of what can make a man alpha.

    That is what this pastor meant by, “You’ll attract a woman by getting men to respect you.”

    This is not necessarily true. I greatly respect disabled combat veterans. They have got men to respect them. That doesn’t mean women automatically respect them. Alpha doesn’t always mean leader of men.

    In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.”

    This is too simplified. Some janitors work very hard. Slaves work very hard. Work in itself does not confer status.

    I don’t believe women are the prize. Nothing I teach suggests that to be the case. And aiming to be a man of status isn’t plan beta. Making women or sex your mission is plan beta.

    Making women or sex your mission is a mistake as well as a sin, but the word alpha doesn’t just mean good and the word beta doesn’t just mean bad, even though that’s how you’re using it rhetorically. Alpha and beta have meaning as in AF/BB. Separating those words from their meaning is silly.

  15. BillyS says:

    Deti,

    The “good looking” is a bit too simplistic and ignores a lot. That is definitely a strong factor, but I think the entire system today is setup to undermine all men, not just the hawt ones.

  16. Asaph says:

    Have anyone else read the national review article by David French? The one where he attempts to criticize Tucker Carlson regarding marriage. French is so out of touch. He thinks marriages work the same way now as they did during the time of his father in law.
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/the-right-should-reject-tucker-carlsons-victimhood-populism/amp/

  17. BillyS says:

    That should say “the not hawt ones”.

  18. info says:

    @BillyS
    ”I am personally all in favor of arranged marriages, but we need much more support after that point as well, and that is missing almost everywhere, unfortunately.”

    I think the modified version where there is some choice as to ensure that both partners are at least attractive at minimum is best.

  19. 7817 says:

    @Deti

    I’d say the plan is “moral alpha” rather than a beta. The beta mindset kills men really. I know we need worker bees and so on, but I don’t think being one is a good life plan for a Christian man.

    Exactly right. A further problem is that being beta generally also includes being naive, and that’s not good either.

  20. Novaseeker says:

    As far as encouraging men to be traditionally masculine, that is now being defined as a pathology by the APA, so it’s just a matter of time until the jackboot of the state comes along and snuffs out anyone who suggests otherwise: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    Asaph
    Have anyone else read the national review article by David French?

    No. Too busy cutting my toenails…

  22. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Novaseeker

    Hmm. I’d say the plan is “moral alpha” rather than a beta.

    Good plan. Someone needs to inform the church leadership; they are running beta factories in way too many places; pushing Focus on the Family pap, showing Kendricks movies in “men’s groups”, etc. and so forth.

    APA

    It’s part of the multi decade long attack on male humans. 25 years ago there were books about how K – 12 education was passively to actively hurting boys. The 5 year old boy of 1994 is now the 30 year old post-doc…

    Up pretty soon, articles wondering why men don’t go to psychologists / counselors etc.

  23. princeasbel says:

  24. info says:

    OT but what do you guy’s think? Special forces operator fitting the trend of masculinizing women:
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-brave-ones-zimbabwe-domestic-violence-survivors-trained-sharpshooters-hunt-poachers/

  25. Lost Patrol says:

    Pastor Foster refers to Dalrock in a subsequent tweet as:

    Mr. Man-O-Sphere himself

    This indicates more than a one time pass at this site. This is a good thing. The more pastors and priests reviewing this material the better. They don’t have to accept everything they read and no one would expect them to, but where else will they even be exposed on the most cursory level to the counterpoints Dalrock presents?

    Many of the observations are hard medicine for men to take, and must be doubly so for some pastors or priests depending on what they’ve been teaching men and for how long; but we’ve seen that some have the courage to face it. Maybe they can refute with better Biblical arguments, or maybe they’ll come to understand a side of the story no one has told them yet. Either way we collectively win if more church leaders get on board with some hard truths that are getting little traction in today’s church.

  26. Lost Patrol says:

    For AR,

    Maybe it should be “come alongside” those hard truths…

  27. Jesus,

    “I took the more Biblical path. At 22 I asked my parents to find me a wife. After declining the first 4 and explaining more clearly what I wanted, I married candidate 5 after 5 months of first meeting her. 37 years, 4 kids, very happy to an obedient wife who fears Christ as I do.”

    Parents don’t want stupid, ugly grandchildren and a daughter with a loser for a husband or a son with a nagging, disrespectful wife. Consequently, parents are strongly incentivized to find good spouses for their children if that’s the route everyone agrees to. Arranged marriages are certainly not a “must” but there is wisdom in the kind you’ve had. I think parents used to play a much larger role in helping their children find spouses. Now they send them off to the world with little advice or training and hope for the best.

    You sound like you have Martin Luther’s personality, haha.

  28. Oscar says:

    @ Novaseeker

    As far as encouraging men to be traditionally masculine, that is now being defined as a pathology by the APA, so it’s just a matter of time until the jackboot of the state comes along and snuffs out anyone who suggests otherwise: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx

    Just tell them you identify as a woman.

  29. Sharkly says:

    How do I attract a woman?
    You say “screw God! Let’s eat the forbidden fruit.” Suddenly you’re the unpredictable bad-boy leading her to perdition, defying almighty God, and her pussy drips out her lust for you. If Chad had been in the garden of Eden, Eve would have picked him over Adam. She really wanted to eat the forbidden fruit, but it was such a drag that she had to lead goody-two-shoes to it, and manipulate the weakling into eating it.

    Women have an evil sinful nature, asking how to attract one is going to lead you into unholiness, unless you’re just asking to become warned and wiser.

    Here is an quick list I came up with of things to do to make yourself unattractive to women:

    Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
    6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
    7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
    8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    The above is almost the exact reverse of the “dark triad” women want:
    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

    Churches are Feminist divorce factories! Don’t go to one looking for how to attract and keep a wife. If you go, listen, and then do the opposite. If you have a wife who is happy to stay with you, don’t mess that up taking her into the churchian false teaching dens of iniquity. Lead her in the paths of righteousness. Those path’s don’t go near a church today! The Bible tells you about those paths. That is why the churchian cunt worshippers ditched the Bible’s perspective on women. The tweet analyzed is exemplar of the simplistic and erroneous pap that gets preached there. And I thought the tweet was actually semi-correct. Much of what is taught in today’s churches is 100% wrong. They take God’s word and flip it on its head. Calling good, evil, and calling evil, good. Beware of their leaven.

  30. Pingback: Unless the men are *Christian*. | Reaction Times

  31. tteclod says:

    Michael Foster: “Making women or sex your mission is plan beta.”

    That is poon commandment 3 of 16.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

  32. Anon says:

    Churches are just Sunday Morning Nightclubs (i.e. a continuation of the Saturday Night revelry and fornication that was underway mere hours before). The most efficient thing a man can do is go after the ‘sermon’ is ending, and then pick up the church sluts.

    After you have pumped and dumped the church sluts, the Pastorbator and other church men will make sure that a Beta Bux schlub is lined up to make sure the post-wall woman is provided for (even if she decides to ditch him later).

    The current setup is extremely well-suited for PUAs that want an extremely efficient process where the women are already curated for them and ready. The church then also makes sure that a Beta Bux contributor is also lined up and ready. PUAs can scarcely believe our luck!

  33. Ben Mavet Who says:

    I’ve never asked any pastor how to attract a woman. However, if I were to go to a pastor for dating advice I would not ask that precise question.
    Instead I would ask “How do I attract a godly woman?” I imagine that the answer would be to become a godly man for starters.

    I find it difficult to believe that a wise old pastor is dishing out what amounts to secular advice. I don’t know the man so I won’t dispute that he is old but I am not entirely impressed by this example of his wisdom.

  34. feeriker says:

    Sharkly says:
    January 7, 2019 at 10:16 pm

    That sums it up quite neatly. I’d be very interested (and no doubt highly amused) to hear churchian “leadership” attempt to rebut your points with something not resembling shaming and ad hominem counterattacks.

  35. feeriker says:

    II’ve never asked any pastor how to attract a woman.

    Why would you? A tiny handful of notable exceptions notwithstanding, that makes about as much sense as asking Stephen Hawking how to win a triathalon.

    I find it difficult to believe that a wise old pastor is dishing out what amounts to secular advice.

    I don’t find it surprising at all. Unless you consider “old” to be someone of the remnant of the Silent or Greatest Generations, pretty much all of today’s “old” (read: Boomer) pastors came of age no later than the early 1970s (no need to elaborate on what THAT means). Like the women of today who would qualify by age as “Titus 2 women,” they were corrupted by the secular culture in their formative years to the point where Godly counsel on marriage, sex, and family are as alien to them as ancient Aztec human sacrifice rituals and just as repugnant.

  36. Cane Caldo says:

    In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.”

    You can only believe this if you haven’t lived and worked in the real world. In the real world, men gain status because other men choose to bring another man into the high status group and very often that acceptance to the high status group has nothing to do with work output. Usually it has to do with shared interests or who can make one of the high status guys laugh. Most of us don’t live and work in dog-eat-dog industries where high status men make Machiavellian decisions to respect a man because of what he can do for them, either. In fact it can go the opposite way: When you work harder or smarter than the others you create a disparity that is uncomfortable for higher status men to accept. They’ll push you out to the fringes.

  37. feministhater says:

    This is the sure fire path to finding a post wall women looking for a meal ticket and then being divorced post 10 years of marriage, losing your kids and shooting yourself in the head to escape the pain… but yeah, go for it. Lol!

  38. CSI says:

    This is a common error I see many people indulge in – trying to define “alpha” as whatever they think is virtuous. The simplest definition of Alpha is whatever causes a women to feel sexual desire. Will becoming top dog at work cause a woman to feel visceral sexual desire for you? Not necessarily, not by itself.

    And another fallacy I’ve seen is that women need to see their man outcompete other men and rise to the top of the work heirarchy to feel attraction. If that’s the case, most women will be out of luck. Most jobs are cooperative. Opportunities to directly compete with other men are going to be rare. And most men can’t rise to the top. Most men will remain in the lower or median tier their whole working life.

  39. Lexet Blog says:

    Sounds like you are incredibly prideful and arrogant, especially with how you describe your behavior in the church. Quite frankly, it sounds like your church should discipline and remove you from your congregation

  40. Lexet Blog says:

    French has a long history of moral flip flopping and contradiction. He couldn’t make it practicing law, so was taken on by a dying magazine.

    He was also vain enough to think he could actually run for president, because Fox interviewed him a few times.

  41. Paul says:

    @Oscar

    As far as encouraging men to be traditionally masculine, that is now being defined as a pathology by the APA, so it’s just a matter of time until the jackboot of the state comes along and snuffs out anyone who suggests otherwise

    Just tell them you identify as a woman.

    Golden.

    Reflects the deep truth that the state is fascist and enforces a state ideology of feminism with full role reversals.

  42. Lexet Blog says:

    He also lives in one of the largest growing markets in the US (of which there are few). All the growth in his community literally comes from communities falling apart elsewhere. If he travelled 30 minutes south or west, his entire claim about Tennessee false apart.

  43. Lexet Blog says:

    Most are married to women who went to bible college to hunt for a husband and gain status as a pastors wife

  44. Paul says:

    @Sharkly

    Women have an evil sinful nature, asking how to attract one is going to lead you into unholiness, unless you’re just asking to become warned and wiser.

    Here is an quick list I came up with of things to do to make yourself unattractive to women: Matthew 5:3

    There’s the dilemma for modern Christian men who want to live righteously, especially for those who have difficulty controlling their sexual desire. It’s for a reason the apostle Paul advises NOT to marry for those who can control it.

    And instead of:

    1. teaching women how to live a holy life by being obedient to Scripture
    2. addressing sin in women who act contrary to Scripture
    3. support men in their mission as heads of their wife and children

    current churches almost without exception:

    1. idolize The Woman, making a golden image for Her
    2. refuse to teach women how to live a holy life
    3. refuse to address sin in women
    4. shame and ridicule men who try to live righteously (including telling them to just work hard at your job)

    Current pastors are responsible for that. Do you copy Michael Foster?

    Ask yourself: when was the last time you saw church leadership address women how to be attractive to godly men? Or better yet, when did the older women urge the younger women to “love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.”

  45. American says:

    I had a great day today. After my self-employed independent consultant work was successfully finished along with the praise lavished on me by the grateful client I solved a difficult technical problem for, I ate and worked out to select esoteric metal music tracks at a reasonably high volume while I pumped iron for almost three hours because I like doing it. After a shower I played a World War II game for a bit and then watched Tucker Carlson which I had recorded with my trusty pet dog. The entire time, I didn’t care what anyone else thought about it because I am not required to as a single person living alone.

    No nagging, no bossing, no threatening, no fighting, no manipulating, no cat herding, no lawyers, no divorce court, no alimony, no child support, no police officers/jail/criminal record, etc… none of it whatsoever. Thank you St Paul for that wonderful bit of advice in 1 Corinthians 7:8. I couldn’t agree more.

  46. @Cane Caldo, spot on.

    “Are you one of us?” Is the great unspoken question in interviews, formal and informal.

  47. feministhater says:

    Sounds like you are incredibly prideful and arrogant, especially with how you describe your behavior in the church. Quite frankly, it sounds like your church should discipline and remove you from your congregation.

    Who are you responding to?

  48. Nick Mgtow says:

    Men refusing to be sneated on…refusing to be used as meal tickets anymore.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6565477/Student-receives-torrent-abuse-date-refused-pay-meal.html

  49. Pastors: “Women are attracted to men who are respected by other men. That’s why we spend so many sermons telling women how church men are losers and babies.”

  50. Anon says:

    “Mr. Man-O-Sphere himself had a critique (kind of) of something I tweeted:”

    When a man employs this kind of snark as a totally serious rhetorical device he can be summarily disregarded.

    It is a tell that he is fully feminized and remains 100 percent plugged into the matrix. (At best)

    At worst he has swallowed the red pill and chosen voluntarily to plug back in, like Cypher.

  51. Oscar says:

    @ Cane Caldo

    You can only believe this if you haven’t lived and worked in the real world. In the real world, men gain status because other men choose to bring another man into the high status group and very often that acceptance to the high status group has nothing to do with work output. Usually it has to do with shared interests or who can make one of the high status guys laugh. Most of us don’t live and work in dog-eat-dog industries where high status men make Machiavellian decisions to respect a man because of what he can do for them, either. In fact it can go the opposite way: When you work harder or smarter than the others you create a disparity that is uncomfortable for higher status men to accept. They’ll push you out to the fringes.

    I mostly agree. Now that I have an office job, this is the case. However, I’ve noticed that in professions that are inherently dangerous, or require enduring a lot of hardship, men tend to surround themselves with other men who make their lives safer and easier, which means surrounding themselves with the most competent men around.

  52. Dalrock says:

    Excellent point Cane.

    @Pastor Foster

    In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.”

    One question this raises is whether marriage should be only for the elite. If yes, then the advice plan is sound. This gets to the common question we discuss of is vs should, but either way, this is a model that will only work for the elite. We can’t make the average man extraordinary, we can only improve the average.

    It is good for a man to demand excellence of himself and of his brothers (according to their individual capabilities). It is not good to expect men in general to be extraordinary.

    This ties back into part of Cane’s excellent comment:

    In the real world, men gain status because other men choose to bring another man into the high status group and very often that acceptance to the high status group has nothing to do with work output.

    In the church, we shouldn’t have standards that cause us to only bestow respect on extraordinary men. If we do, we are implicitly saying that Christian marriage should only be for the elite.

  53. PokeSalad says:

    Have anyone else read the national review article by David French?

    Who? The cuck’s cuck? The cuck who outcucks every other cuck out there? That cuck?

  54. PokeSalad says:

    This is not necessarily true. I greatly respect disabled combat veterans. They have got men to respect them. That doesn’t mean women automatically respect them. Alpha doesn’t always mean leader of men.

    True – “I’ll charge that bunker because all the women will swoon over me later.” – said no combat vet, ever.

  55. white says:

    @Cane

    Exactly, but he’s a pastor. Of course he has no idea how the world works.

  56. ys says:

    Much of the disagreement here comes down to a larger disagreement: What of the women? If all women, AWALT, are as bad as to be believed, then yes, this advice is terrible.
    If there are good Christian women out there, then they will appreciate the advice given. Foster is presuming a Christian audience who would be looking for a Christian woman, hence that advice.

  57. Crude says:

    For what it’s worth, I never heard of Foster, but after this article I checked out his tweets.

    I didn’t get very far – just to his most recent series of tweets about how he changed the way he comes home, and how ‘needing some time to decompress’ was a missed leadership opportunity, so he changed up how he approached things.

    It actually seems like decent advice, delivered well. Maybe he goes off the rails elsewhere. But so far, hey, decent start.

  58. Gunner Q says:

    Cane Caldo @ 12:48 am:
    “In general, men gain status through diligent work. They outwork their peers in efforts and/or wisdom. That is what he meant by, “You’ll get men to respect you by working hard.””

    “You can only believe this if you haven’t lived and worked in the real world.”

    Quoted for truth. Respect for unsexy men has flatlined in North America, to the point of our authorities trying to replace the population with South Americans and dot Indians.

    Has Foster noticed the Manosphere encouraging trades work? That’s because no matter how little you respect the plumber, when you need him you’ll pay his prices.

  59. Otto says:

    “I find it difficult to believe that a wise old pastor is dishing out what amounts to secular advice.”

    This is the root of the problem.

    The Bible is about To Jesus. It’s purpose is to familiarize you with Jesus so you can be saved. It has general life advice, but rarely goes into details.

    Finances: be frugal, give to the poor, don’t worship money. But no specifics. It doesn’t say where to invest your money, how to avoid taxes, or if stocks or bonds are better. Yet there are Christian financial ministries claiming their financial advice comes from the Bible.

    Realtionships: get married, sex only if married, love your wife, respect your husband, don’t get divorced. Little specifics on day to day interactions or even how to find a mate. Yet again, we have Christian ministries (and pastors) presenting detailed secular relationship advice as if it has some Biblical authority.

    What next, a Christian landscaping ministry that tells people how to cut their grass and trim their hedges biblically?

    Pastors, like this on, are venturing outside their bailiwick. They need to be reigned in.

  60. Paul says:

    @Otto

    I’ve heard of a local church where the women wouldn’t dare to buy new curtains without the “spiritual” advice of the pastors’s wife. Really.

  61. 7817 says:

    The title of this post… If a pastor reads and understands it, what a wake up call it could be.

  62. Anon says:

    I’m probably going to start having services in my house soon. We’ve found a couple of red pill friendly (large) families who would likely come. Not sure what to do about the sacraments though.

    Modern clergy is useless on supporting father-led families.

  63. Oscar says:

    @ Otto

    Finances: be frugal, give to the poor, don’t worship money. But no specifics. It doesn’t say where to invest your money, how to avoid taxes, or if stocks or bonds are better. Yet there are Christian financial ministries claiming their financial advice comes from the Bible.

    You might want to re-read the Book of Proverbs. There’s a whole lot more financial advice than that in that book alone.

  64. Damn Crackers says:

    @Paul – “It’s for a reason the apostle Paul advises NOT to marry for those who can control it.”

    This is true, for those who CAN control it. Most men can’t. Have you ever seen a documentary about men in prison? Those are folks who definitely can’t control it and form horrible facsimiles of husband/wife relationships. Thus, the modern Christian man finds himself in a dilemma. If he can’t marry or be celibate (most men can’t), then all types of fornications MUST flourish around him. This is where we are in Christendom now!

  65. JRob says:

    Mr. Foster,
    If you’re still with us I encourage you to read this:
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/hostage-negotiator-for-life/

    It’s a classic post from Mr. Manosphere Himself which provides, in introductory form, the struggle we non-elites face in the current environment. Many of us, yours truly included, views church leadership as compromised and deceived and thus the enemy of the Christian father.

  66. BillyS says:

    JRob,

    Laurie grew up with a mom who was very irresponsible. You would think that would get him to realize women are not angels all the time. Unfortunately it is the Madonna/whore complex. All women are either, with most being the former. They hate men likely because they hate their own father.

    He has a huge hole in his vision, but he is a Boomer (born in mid 1950s I believe) so that can explain things as well.

  67. Sharkly says:

    Yet there are Christian financial ministries claiming their financial advice comes from the Bible.
    IKR! There are some that are on the radio during my long drive home from work. I hope it is a sign that I am not enslaved to the love of money, that I’d rather stick a fork in my eye, than listen to that “love of money” crap. I’ve made millions, and lost it all, and I am currently working on being content in my poverty, now made worse by divorce. Greed has no place in the life of a Christian. I’m not saying to be foolish with your money, just don’t set your heart on money.

    Mark 4:19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
    Hebrews 11:26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

  68. ys says:

    We have seen in the past couple of days on this blog, the following comments,
    “Just a pastor, not done a hard day’s work in his life.”
    “This (advising men on women) is pastors stepping out of their place.”
    Is their place behind a desk in a study and crying with widows? Or is it out, working hard, like “real men.”
    As a layman, I have heard similar. I also worked a very blue collar job for a season after obtaining my professional degree. I heard the same things from co-workers regarding our white collar supervisors. Some pastors are not stupid, Foster may be one of them.
    Trust me, it sounds like the whining of a loser. If you want to whine, go for it. But any conversation that starts with, “he’s a pastor, not done a hard day’s work, derp derp,” is absurd. The pastor who spent the most time with me as a young man had worked in a totally different occupation for 30 years. He would be too polite to laugh at such a statement against him, but he ought to laugh.
    If Foster said he had previously worked 10 years in construction before ministry, would everyone here go, “Oh, my bad, I respect you now.” No, you would just move the goal posts again.

  69. Otto says:

    “You might want to re-read the Book of Proverbs. There’s a whole lot more financial advice than that in that book alone.”

    Does it tell me to buy a new Ford or a used Toyota? Invest in real estate, bonds or gold? Stay at my current job or quit and start a business?

    A Christian financial counselor would have specific answers to those questions, all with a gloss of: this is what the Bible says.

  70. BillyS says:

    Otto,

    You need to stop valuing yourself so highly. The Bible may not say which car type is better, per se, but principles are just that and can be applied many places. Stop claiming that they can only apply when specific brands are noted.

    I would have to listen to the ministry you present. They are wrong if they claim “thus says the Lord” for which brand, but they can certainly apply the principles (look for value, etc.).

  71. JRob says:

    Ys,

    I’ll counter the goalposts are where they’ve always been. “Work and and gain respect” is good advice for the 1950s. It’s good advice now with the exception of being used in attracting women.

    The goalposts are recognize what’s happening on the ground right now and address it instead of anachronistic platitudes. The *real* advice: “Work hard, gain respect, and be led lockstep to the meat grinder.”

    No thanks.

  72. white says:

    @ys
    Would a man with 10 years experience in construction have said something like Foster did?

    (answer is yes btw, a pastor who insists on maintaining the status quo at all costs would still say that. So you see, we’re really doing pastors a favour by implying they’re deluded/senile, rather than dishonest)

  73. 7817 says:

    @ys

    I’ve been around both kind of pastors, both the hard workers and the soft men, so know from experience both kinds exist.

    However, the stereotype exists for a reason.

    But any conversation that starts with, “he’s a pastor, not done a hard day’s work, derp derp,” is absurd.

    To the contrary, in a fair number of cases this criticism would be accurate. It doesn’t automatically mean what the pastor says is invalid.

    It’s interesting that you are calling people out for saying this when that is essentially what Foster is doing. He is saying work hard, get respect. Those commenters are saying, I don’t think most pastors work hard and I don’t respect them.

    I don’t know what conclusions to draw from this other than to say that respect is in pretty short supply all over.

  74. Joe2 says:

    @Otto

    Little specifics on day to day interactions or even how to find a mate.

    This is very true. I’ve heard pastors and Christian ministries claim that if God wants you to be married, God will bring a mate into your life when you are least expecting that to happen. Trust in the Lord, otherwise you are working “in the flesh” to find a mate and that is a big no no. You should also be open to the possibility that you have the “gift of celibacy.” Thus, they would claim specifics on day to day interactions are unnecessary.

  75. Anon says:

    I see that Pastor Foster ran away. He could not defend the Plan Beta that he was espousing, as it was terrible advice.

    It is amazing that people have so little curiosity about how mating/sexual dynamics work in the contemporary world.

  76. Anonymous Reader says:

    Twitter does not lend itself to extensive thoughts. It is more like a text, or a fortune cookie, or the daily astrology fortune in some newspapers. People read into such short statements from their own perspective. Pastor Foster’s intentions are probably good; he sees himself as helping younger men who somehow never got told such things before. Ten or more years ago I would have agreed.

    At a time when the average age of American women at their first marriage is 27, when half or more of American women have had sex with at least 5 men prior to marriage (and many much higher), and at a time when the churches in America are almost totally blind to some aspects of reality, Foster’s tweet can come across as quite condescending. However, if he’s not aware that 70% of divorces are filed by women and all that implies, then he’s just commenting from a position of ignorance.

    Another aspect of Twitter that is hazardous is how easy it is to offhandly toss off remarks that might not be well thought out. That could be the case here.

    PS: “Mr. Manosphere Himself” is a rather passive-aggressive thing to write. It’s not going to earn Pastor Foster much respect from serious men, especially the kind of Christian men who take their faith seriously. I wonder what his intended audience is?

  77. Anonymous Reader f says:

    7817
    I’ve been around both kind of pastors, both the hard workers and the soft men, so know from experience both kinds exist.

    Likewise. Perhaps if we weren’t living in a world where far too many pastors talk like women, it would be easier to discuss this…

  78. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Crude
    Foster may be the man working with Bnonn to set up that website recently advertised in 10 tweets.

    Here is an interesting article on “leading a wife” in the churchgoing context. It is worth reading if nothing else for the short critique of Complimentarianism.

    https://mailchi.mp/f58f3ff9c46a/gravitas-and-leading-a-wife

  79. Nathan Bruno says:

    I think Pastor Foster was tilting at windmills when he went after this blog, because, in reading his remarks on Twitter, I do not find a lot of disagreement. This is clearly just to get some traffic to that new website. I understand that everyone is their own carnival barker. Whereas there is a SIGNIFICANT problem with the Cult of Doug and its phony-baloney flexible doctrine, I have not seen a doctrinal issue with Pastor Foster.

    That said, this “wise old pastor” provides terrible advice; he assumes that what worked when women wanted to be married will work in an age when women don’t want to be married. The incentives are all wrong. Parents should get their children married by 21 and then support the new family, or else they should expect it to never work out. You can’t be a man who takes Christian purity seriously and then be shoved ahead by the elders for the “nice girl” who joined the church last month and has more notches on her belt than Roosh V; the men who followed the Christian ethic just become lambs to the slaughter, and in no way provide a witness for Christ because most churches will turn on them in embrace of Jezebel.

    I have found the same conundrum in speaking to Christian parents who want strong, independent daughters as when I ask them whether they would like all of their policy goals achieved or the right to vote (and lose every single time). They always indignantly say – the right to vote, of course – even though they know they lose every time.

  80. @Dalrock

    Thank you for posting the update. I’ve been reading you for a long time and benefit from your perceptiveness.

  81. @Dalrock I just saw this comment: “In the church, we shouldn’t have standards that cause us to only bestow respect on extraordinary men. If we do, we are implicitly saying that Christian marriage should only be for the elite.”

    It’s a good question. I’ll take some time to chew on it before responding.

  82. Paul says:

    @DC This is true, for those who CAN control it. Most men can’t.

    Well, sinning sexually is not an option either.

  83. Some ideas/observations:

    1. Get ripped. Six pack abs, bowling ball shoulders and sequoia root biceps. It’s not easy, but it’s not that hard either. Just takes some time, patience, discipline and a lot of sacrifice/going without.

    2. Drive a masculine vehicle. Motorcycle, 4×4 Jeep or Truck, Boat. If you own a Prius or a Ford Focus, or a moped with a upside down soup bowl for a helmet, then you’re doing it wrong.

    3. Have a purpose: career, business, fitness, hobbies (fishing, guns, surfing, fishing, motorcycles, carpentry, auto or home restoration, woodworking, metalurgy, art). Something cool and not video games. Being busy and unavailable attracts women because they instinctively know how to seek out and find interesting men who are already happy and active so that she can attempt to interrupt your progress, change your priorities, separate you from your friends, and make your life miserable and sexless. It’s uncanny.

    4. Master a musical instrument and play it well. I’m completely serious. Guitar, piano or cello are mine. You will meet a lot of great looking, slender and feminine girls this way. I don’t know why this is, it just it is. Triple points if you can also sing well.

    5. Just have good hygiene

    6. Learn how to dress in a masculine fashion. If you own a fedora, capri pants and wear no socks with penny loafers, then you’re doing it wrong. Rugged, rakkish look always trumps ambigously gay.

    7. Just STFU.

    But if I were to pick only one that was the most effective and decisive by a wide margin – I’m taking Brian Fontana’s 60% of the time working every time – where girls will stop in their tracks, mouths agape, giggling and giving out phone numbers to you right in front of their boyfriends, then it would have to be No. 1. This is because most guys – the vast majority – are too fat, too lazy, too going-through-the-motions of life, and just too damn nice.

    Other guys would say no,having game and frame is top. Neither on my list. That’s because I think if you don’t have some game and masculine frame as a man, then nothing is going to help you sustain whatever you manage to attract.

  84. Spike says:

    The problem with the Pastor is that he only gets it half- right. And it’s the easy half that makes any red-pill man, married or not, yell, “It’s a trap!”
    You can get respect from other men by being diligent and competent. This is self evident and the driving force of Jordan Peterson’s analysis of why hirarchies exist.
    The Danger of this view is that there is a minefield of laws surrounding women that the State, with its obsequious minions the legal system and the media, will ruthlessly enforce against a man should a woman conveniently think it appropriate action. Wise still, the higher the status, the better it is for the spectacle of the fall of the man.
    Should he be successful, they will say he felt entitled. If he is altruistic with his spare time, devoted to church Youth Group, teaching kids or similar, the he “led a double life” with the mind of a devious psychopath. Even juicier, if he is Christian, well, he is the perfect conflagration of psychotic, hypocritical, two-faced evil.
    Pastors HAVE TO understand that women are not sinless angels. Scripture does not
    portray them as such. They do their congregations a disservice, because when you go to church you expect to hear the truth about every subject. They do a double disservice in alienating men for whom the truth about women’s nature is self-evident

  85. Paul says:

    @ys But any conversation that starts with, “he’s a pastor, not done a hard day’s work, derp derp,” is absurd.

    Well, there is a kernel of truth in it; pastors/priests/bishops etc. at a certain point in time considered themselves to be in a separate social and spiritual class : the clergy. Traditionally it was clearly separated from the working class. The clergy changed church rules such that only clergy could participate in spiritual affairs, on behalf of the working class.

    This persists until this day in traditional churches, and even in non-traditional churches there is more spiritual value placed on work done in church context, than in a regular working environment.

    I’m involved with initiatives to testify of your faith in a work context. To most pastors this is completely alien, whereas it actually is much closer to the situation of spread of the gospel in the church in the first couple of centuries. Think about it; you work let’s say 2000 hours a year among colleagues for which you might be the single Christian they meet in their lives and for whom you might be the single source to hear the gospel. In my experience Christians seems to be present in many different places among many different people. Compare that to evangelism initiatives where you only meet people for a very brief period and often only once.

    Most pastors really don’t understand what is happening in the working place, nor understand the relevance of the working place, both for development of yourself and as a living testimony.

  86. Sharkly says:

    I have rarely had any problem at all attracting the women I was interested in, since I was a teenager. However, for the most part that is due to factors I don’t really control. I guess I won the genetic lottery. I find it far fetched to believe that everybody not as blessed, would garner the same attraction as I do, entirely by hard work, if they are naturally unattractive, when I don’t really work much at all, or necessarily deserve to be more attractive. FWIW “Attractive” is a word with a definition already. I didn’t just make it up. Last time I checked the definition of “Attractive” wasn’t: Adjective, Beta male who works really hard and waits at church for Chad’s sloppy leftovers.

    I’m 6’1″ or 186 cm for you Kiwi’s
    Blond, with blue eyes, above average looks, (I believe)
    Muscular, lean, exceptionally strong, naturally athletic, exceptionally well hung
    Competitive, intelligent, from a good family, entirely private school educated,
    Most all of that was a result of divine providence and blessing beyond my control. Telling some man born with a disability or deformity or unattractive, or born into poor circumstances that women would like to avoid, to just “whistle while you work”, and the hottest ladies will come running, is more the teachings of Walt Disney, than Jesus Christ. Speaking of Michael Foster & his wise old pastor buddy; their train of thought just didn’t stop at reality station.

  87. Dalrock says:

    Thank you Pastor Foster.

  88. Anonymous Reader says:

    Spike
    Pastors HAVE TO understand that women are not sinless angels.

    This is a common problem. IMO it is made worse by lip service from pastors. Watch what they do, not what they say; it’s really easy in the modern situation to say a few words about women’s behavior once in a while, but cave in on any actual action (looking at the usual celebrity pastors mentioned her…). If a church leader believes truly that women are quite capable of bad behavior, then his actions should show it: don’t cheer for the Strong & Independent high school girls eager to rush off on a 2 week mission trip to Central America, ask what exactly the mission is all about. Just to pick one example that I have seen in the last few years.

    Sharkley
    I have rarely had any problem at all attracting the women I was interested in, since I was a teenager.

    Why are you sharing this?What point are you trying to make?

  89. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    constrainedlocus: Master a musical instrument and play it well. … You will meet a lot of great looking, slender and feminine girls this way. I don’t know why this is, it just it is

    I read a theory on this blog that the reason women are attracted to musicians is because, when a musician performs, he is the center of attention. Other women (and men) are looking at him, admiring him. Public acclaim, or even just public admiration, raises a man’s status.

  90. Anon says:

    There is a point where a convergence between sharklys true comment and Dalrocks musings about marriages possibly being for the elite occurs.

    Back in high school I had a teacher who said something like

    “Usually when you see a couple you see that they are within about one point of each other on the 1-10 scale. You’ll see a 7 with an 8 or a 3 with a 4 but you almost never see a 3 with an 8.”

    I thought that seemed pretty intuitive.

    As has been discussed ad nauseum on these sites, natural sorting has been artificially destroyed by systemic dramatic changes in the SMP/MMP.

    Marriage should not be for the elite. Sorting needs to reach parsimony again.

  91. Anonymous Reader says:

    Public acclaim, or even just public admiration, raises a man’s status.

    It is a form of preselection, and preselection works.

  92. Sharkly says:

    It is like the hirelings all seem to believe that women’s vagina tingles really are some goddess calibrated virtue indicator, that will avoid the players like Chad and zero in on meek Eddie who brings his Grandma to church and sits with her.

    Riddle me this pastor? If women are these paragons of virtue as you imply, then why do they all want to fuck like rabbits before marriage, and then dead-bedroom the man the moment he puts a ring on her. If I didn’t know better it’d seem like they’re immoral whores at heart. I’d go as far as to say that their very nature is sinful, and that they were conceived in iniquity. How about you preach that, instead of Feminist fairytales.

  93. Sharkly says:

    Why are you sharing this?What point are you trying to make?
    That I’m Narcissistic! “Dark Triad” stuff, Man! /S

    No, I was trying to show that women’s attraction is not based upon merit, or earned respectability, and that my life is anecdotal proof of that. on the other end of the spectrum from the heroic disfigured veteran who makes women say, “Ewwww!” despite him deserving their deep respect and gratitude.

  94. American says:

    “I’ll charge that bunker because all the women will swoon over me later.” – said no combat vet, ever.”

    PokeSalad, not true for the Islamic world but that aside, today what you’re driving at seems to be the case in Western Civilization somewhat (not entirely). However, in the European early modern period males were engaged in all sorts of combat escapades for many reasons ranging from matters of honor, to improving social status, to winning the attention of females. That’s how the fad of young commoner men slashing themselves on the face, for example, to appear as if they had won a sword fight in order to win the attention of females came about. Not that they had to in the places like the universities for young men of that period in Spain, for example. There was enough dueling in such environments that most any freshman had to factor it into how they would graduate to take their place in the world. (And female nature being what it is, it wasn’t long before females began copying the practice of dueling among themselves to a far lesser extent).

    The courtly love of the Middle Ages and the body of literature surrounding chivalry it produced certainly did have an effect on later culture too mostly due to writers in the 18th and 19th century romanticizing the Middle Ages. The soldiers who charged for Bonaparte, for example, weren’t just paying prostitutes following their armies but also benefiting from the chivalrous thought in culture as they landed girlfriends both home and abroad. Unfortunately, it was “Code Napoléon” that is an important milestone in the end of “Pre Code Regime” Church and Canon Law.

  95. Gunner Q says:

    A credit to Foster for showing up. That does take courage and the reality of Christianity and human sexuality is impossible to handle all at once. To use a Matrix analogy, “everybody falls the first time”.

  96. earl says:

    If women are these paragons of virtue as you imply, then why do they all want to fuck like rabbits before marriage, and then dead-bedroom the man the moment he puts a ring on her.

    Because it’s exciting or tingling for them to be sinfully rebellious and boring to be the obedient submissive wife.

    I’d say read Psalm 36 to see how that path goes.

  97. theShield220 says:

    Glad to see there was some back and forth that developed instead of just pot shots. Taking some time to think it through is more consistent with the way I appraised Foster’s character. Good for him.
    Still have to say, though: watch the Presbyterian arrogance, man. It will hamstring any insights you have; it will render them useless.

  98. Oscar says:

    @ Paul

    Well, there is a kernel of truth in it; pastors/priests/bishops etc. at a certain point in time considered themselves to be in a separate social and spiritual class : the clergy.

    Most clergymen suffer from the same deficiency from which most college professors suffer; they have no idea how the real world works, because they’ve never lived there.

    Most college professors go from elementary school, to high school, to undergrad, to grad school, to post grad, to tenure, having never actually put any of their ideas to the test in the real world, yet they presume to “educate” impressionable young people on how the real world works.

    Most pastors go from elementary school, to high school, to undergrad, to a “youth pastor” position, to senior pastor,

    Now, let’s look at the Bible’s requirements for pastors (overseers).

    1 Timothy 3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a [a]bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    He can’t be a novice, he must have a family (otherwise he couldn’t rule his household), and he has to have built a good reputation outside the church.

    Unless you’re one hell of an overachiever, there’s no way you can meet all those qualifications in your 20s. Few men meet those qualifications in their 30s. Youth pastors in their 20s shouldn’t even exist (neither should youth groups, but that’s a separate issue).

    Men who are called to the ministry should spend time in the real world and earn the respect of their Christian and non-Christian peers before they even begin training for the ministry (preferably by being mentored by an older pastor).

  99. Paul says:

    @Oscar Men who are called to the ministry should spend time in the real world and earn the respect of their Christian and non-Christian peers before they even begin training for the ministry

    That’s why church leadership consists of elders, which ALL should be able to teach. The modern pastor is a recent invention.

  100. Asaph says:

    I had a good chuckle from reading your reply. Not sure why

  101. Oscar says:

    @ Paul

    Exactly. Elders.

    Christians think the Apostle Paul’s admonition to Timothy (1 Tim 4:12 Let no one despise you for your youth… ) means that Timothy was in his teens or twenties. Timothy was in his 40s when the Apostle Paul wrote that to him.

    So, if a man in his 40s risks being despised for his youth, what does that say about elders?

  102. ys says:

    People are getting on Foster when he basically said to be exceptional. What about the normal folks, everyone said?
    Did everyone catch that constrainedlocus above me also gave elitest advice, but instead with a PUA twist. People bang on pastors for the out-of-touch advice, but give PUAs a pass for the same. Wonder why that is.

  103. American says:

    And after reading through all of the comments, in context with the original post, I agree with Gunner Q.

    Respect to courageous Pastor Foster for showing up and engaging honestly with integrity on what is a non-safe topic in today’s leftist controlled, post-modern, revisionist, politically correct (e.g. authoritarianism arising from cultural Marxism) environment.

  104. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Oscar

    Timothy was in his 40s when the Apostle Paul wrote that to him.

    I’ve always seen this portrayed as Timothy being a young man. This is good to know. Where does this information come from?

  105. feeriker says:

    Marriage should not be for the elite. Sorting needs to reach parsimony again.

    The civilizational chaos that will ultimately result from putting marriage beyond the reach of everyone but the upper five percent will likely be unrivaled in its destructive ugliness. Human history is replete with nation-destroying violence triggered by much less against far fewer people.

    So, if a man in his 40s risks being despised for his youth, what does that say about elders?

    I think the problem here in North America is exacerbated by the fact that our culture has ZE-RO respect for older men. Given the near complete convergence of the North American church, it stands to reason that the Scriptural mandate that authority within the body be given to older men has been tossed out the window.

  106. Oscar says:

    @ Lost Patrol

    I’ve always seen this portrayed as Timothy being a young man. This is good to know. Where does this information come from?

    Church tradition holds that Timothy was martyred at 80 years old around 97 AD. The Apostle Paul left Timothy in Ephesus around 64 AD. That would make Timothy 47 when he became the pastor of the church in Ephesus. Give or take a few years to account for the difficulty in keeping records over 2,000 years.

  107. anon says:

    Jesus Rodriguez de la Torre — “…..I took the more Biblical path. At 22 I asked my parents to find me a wife. …I am not promoting arranged marriage. I am promoting arranged courtship..”

    That’s absolutely wonderful IF you are born and raised in a Christian family. However, many young single believers are teen/early 20s converts who don’t have a religious family background, and unless they’re prepared to get out there and date-date-date (prayerfully and chastely of course), they’re never going to find spouses.

    It is most assuredly NOT the biblical path to put roadblocks to marriage in the path of those who wish to marry and don’t have the familial and social capital that you had. Arranged courtship worked for you but it just is not possible for many.

    This was the fatal flaw with “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” — it had no alternative path to marriage for those who decided to “not date” yet didn’t come from Christian families. BTW, the author of IKDG recently apologized, admitted the book was a dreadful mistake, and has withdrawn it from publication.

  108. Oscar says:

    By the way; I’m 43. I’m younger now than Timothy apparently was when the Apostle Paul told Timothy “let no one despise you for your youth”.

    Think about that.

  109. Lost Patrol says:

    Thanks Oscar.

  110. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I’ve heard there’s a Jewish tradition that age 40 is a critical milestone for men. For instance, a man must be at least 40 to be allowed to study the Kabbala. (Women are not allowed to study Kabbala in traditional Judaism.) This milestone age (although the Kabbala did not yet exist in the first century) implies that Timothy was under 40 when Paul wrote him that letter.

    However, Jesus allegedly waited until age 30 to preach, because age 30 is another milestone in Judaism. So maybe Timothy was under 30.

  111. Christian Red Piller says:

    @Michael S. Foster
    Pastors like you are the reason I don’t go to church anymore.

  112. Oscar says:

    @ anon

    This was the fatal flaw with “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” — it had no alternative path to marriage for those who decided to “not date” yet didn’t come from Christian families. BTW, the author of IKDG recently apologized, admitted the book was a dreadful mistake, and has withdrawn it from publication.

    Yet another reason why listening to an inexperienced 22-year-old is a bad idea. But then, so is making that same kid the senior pastor of a megachurch at 30 just because of name recognition.

  113. timrean2444 says:

    Thanks for Pastor Foster for showing up here. I am an occasional browser and reader.

    I am divorced, kids all grown, not my choice about the divorce. My ex can break clean from me, but I can’t break free from her due to alimony.

    I am trying to reconcile “Game” and “Alpha” with Christianity, because in the Christian world “Game” does not condone us to F every woman we can.

    On the other hand, being married to a Christian wife who took vows, in a conservative church, has ended up with me being alone and paying cash and prizes. This was done with the explicit and implicit consent of the pastor and elders of the church. There was no discipline on me, and I was told, that if I wanted to pursue the issue further, I would need to bring her up on charges of discipline. Who wants to be married to a rebellious wife who is only in marriage because the church told her to stay married?

    To my knowledge, not one single person in leadership advised her to work on the marriage although they “prayed for us”.

    I am no theologian, but I have studied enough to sniff out bad doctrine, and I recognize pastors being politicians. I also recognize how women are gossips in the church, and their view of marriage gains control because men don’t go blabbing to all their friends about marriage problems. However elder’s wives blab to everyone and influence their elder husbands.

    I can’t recall a single time in my church when a female was disciplined unless she was caught in a red handed affair. It is more commonplace with men.

    Going back to Alpha and game, divorce makes you question everything you believed in, and one can swing to the other side of morality. F all I have done. It’s meaningless. Enjoy yourself. But I am still captive to Christ in mind though maybe not in body.

    So I went into the dating world and found that there are opportunities, but they seem counterfeit.

    I would rather have an honest woman, with no faith or weak in faith, than one who hides behind 1) Church Leadership Support 2) Her prayers to God who told her it was the right thing to do regardless of the word. 3) Her divorcee friends who encourage the act and will support her.

    And…I am “dating’ one of these honest women….but the questions linger.

  114. BillyS says:

    anon,

    Dating remains idiotic whether Josh Harris has recanted or not. Setting people up for failure remains a stupid thing to do. The fact IKDG let people be idiots doesn’t mean it was wrong, it means that most people really are idiots (MPAI).

    Dating culture led to the hookup culture we have today. That is continue the destruction of marriage.

    An interesting video, with even more interesting comments is at

    Note that they are looking for the dating culture of a past generation when that is no longer present. Both on the video are certainly attractive, but they fail to notice that women are the ones causing the problems with their desires to always trade up. Some men will do that too of course, but not as often. Though the 20% of the men all the women want do fall prey to that more than the rest of us.

  115. Patrick says:

    Working hard doesn’t generate respect in men or women if you still always lose.

  116. BillyS says:

    Tim Rean,

    Nothing in game requires sleeping around all you can. You seem to have a skewed view of that. A Christian version of it would certainly prohibit that and some aspects (dread game) may not work at all for a Christian, but keeping your frame is very important in today’s society if you want to have any chance of success, even with a supposedly Christian wife.

    I do agree that divorce, especially after a long marriage, can shake your view on things. I will never walk back on my faith, but I am coming much closer to the MGTOW road, even if finding someone faithful is not likely to happen anyway. I would still prefer restoration, but I don’t see that happening, so I expect to remain alone, even if that is not God’s top will for a man. (However much some claim I am condemned to that because my wife was unfaithful, just not sexually.)

    No woman today is completely honest, though some are more honest than others. Knowing how they will act in 20 years is almost impossible, unfortunately. Though I would say to look at her own mother and what she thinks of how her mother has and continues to act. I wish I had done that more with my wife several decades ago. I am not sure it would have been totally safe, but it would have exposed a major potential flaw that only rose later.

    Though a woman without faith will have nothing that will keep her on the proper path. A woman who claims to have faith may easily abandon it of course, but not having it in the first place makes that abandonment unnecessary at all.

  117. locustyears says:

    I don’t comment much, but I come here and read a lot. It’s really common to see guys saying they’ve left the church because it’s too feminized. I can think of few things more Beta than that. If you don’t want to participate in Christianity, that’s one thing, and if that’s the case, you’re absence from Church is because you don’t know God, not because of feminism. If on the other hand, if you desire to take part in biblical Christianity by participating in a local church and you don’t go because of feminism, you are displaying weakness. You are allowing women and weak men to govern your life.
    As Paul said elsewhere, “Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.”
    Christian Men, if you believe the church is too feminized, the answer isn’t to sit at home. Get off your ass and get back in the fight. Say no to your wife. Say no to other people’s wives. Say no to the pastor’s wife. Say no to men who act and think like women. We have the Scriptures on our side. Show them in scripture where they are wrong. Many will reject you. They rejected Christ when he spoke the truth. If there are too many betas in church, how is your absence going to remedy that? If young men are being raised in that atmosphere, where are they going to see and hear the actions and words of real men? The more involved you are in a church, the more influence you can have to help lead it back to the biblical path. Stop complaining and do something about it. God didn’t call us to give up on His Church when times get difficult. Christ built the Church and the gates of hell (feminism) will not prevail against it.

  118. American says:

    @locustyears, as you already know the root meaning of the term church (Gk: ekklesia) is “those called out.” In the New Testament, in the visible local assembly sense rather than the universal sense, ekklesia came to refer to an assembly of believers who followed Jesus (ideally each member is a genuine believer joined to Christ’s spiritual body by the Holy Spirit [1 Cor. 12:13] at the moment of regeneration [Titus 3:3-6] when they individually placed their faith in the Lord Jesus as their Savior [Acts 16:31]). There are divine purposes for this which include edification, worship, and participation in ordinances such as baptism and communion.

    I provide this as the context for agreeing with you that it is God’s will that Christians find a suitable local assembly and attend. Like you, it doesn’t really make sense to me why people stop “going to church” at all when there is such a large number of assemblies of all sizes and all sorts of people to choose from, one can change assemblies, and like-minded Christians can even come together and form a new one.

    There are also a wide variety of types of formats available. Simply attending a small fellowship and bible study group once a week can work. It has for me before and is OK. But this excuse of having nothing to do with “the church,” in the visible local sense, isn’t biblical.

  119. Sharkly says:

    The gates of hell and the great whore (phony churches) work together. Wise up. Come out from among them and be ye separate. The church is supposed to be a unified gathering of believers, not some place you go to battle for the basic elements of the faith against those who neither fear God, nor follow His word. I battle them from the outside without joining their despicable charade. Best of luck with your fight though. But don’t be deceived, the church doors have often become the gates to hell. Time to nail some more theses to the doors and turn some aside from the churches satanic path. In this day and age the internet is one of the ways we publicly post our objections. Certainly don’t fund those charlatans. Give your money in the name of Jesus directly. Steward it yourself, and be responsible. Defund the “storehouse” of Satan’s servants.

  120. American says:

    @Sharkly, every single Christian assembly in the entire world is not a part of some “great whore” of “(phony churches)” and therefore one must “come out from among [all of] them and be ye separate.” You are making a false assertion. There are assemblies which truly correspond with a correct understanding of the New Testament and those that do not. Mixing the authentic and the inauthentic together is fallacious. Furthermore, it’s morally wrong to mix them together as if they are the same and then condemn the authentic in the manner that you have (e.g. “satanic path,” “gates to hell,” “charlatans,” “storehouse of Satan’s servants,” and “despicable charade”).

  121. Joe Ego says:

    @Michael S. Foster
    I don’t believe women are the prize. Nothing I teach suggests that to be the case.

    I have no reason to doubt you, but the point has been that is what the culture and many churches and ministries teach implicitly, if not explicitly. This is the near direct quote from Wendy Griffith.

    What I believe is better is the following: You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority.

    Choose a mission that is pleasing to God but, practically speaking, women will follow almost any man on a mission.

  122. 7817 says:

    @timrean2444

    The archived posts here really helped me, especially one called Cypher’s Problem. The discussion in the comments to that post was very helpful in figuring how Game and Christianity worked together, and what was and wasn’t sin.

    The posts from around that time were good too.

  123. 7817 says:

    @locustyears

    Not everyone is cut out to do what you suggest in resisting feminism in the church. In fact for most men, standing up like that would probably do more harm than good, both to themselves and the church, as most don’t have the necessary charisma to pull it off and the strength to handle the enermous pressure it would put them under.

    Leaving the church probably isn’t the right call for everyone either.

    What we are facing in most realms of society in the West is the betrayal of people by their leaders. We see it in politics, in business, in education, and in church with pastors selling out their men, among other things.

    This is one reason I am skeptical of Bnonn and Foster’s Good to be a man project. At this point the default is for a leader to betray his people, or else to take advantage of suckers. For anyone to rise above this level they have to be committed to the truth even when they don’t like it, above their ideology.

    A good genuine leader right now is worth a whole lot.

  124. American says:

    @7817, good points. Let me say that I believe government reform is already underway and will increase in the years immediately ahead. Church reform is coming too in my opinion. I won’t try to evidence my hypothesis right now as I need to get sleep. I acknowledge there are voices asserting the opposite. My view is that we need to be politically involved with government reform, politically involved both in elections and legislation, and also involved in reform regarding the church as well to exploit the openings that have recently begun to appear. I’ve chosen that route.

  125. Hugh Mann says:

    OT (btw I thought the pastor was pretty sound in his comments here) yet another woman discovering career and bables conflict. When I was a child, female doctors were all spinsters by choice. There was a reason for that.

    “I Spent My Fertile Years Training to Be a Surgeon. Now, It Might Be Too Late for Me to Have a Baby”

    http://time.com/5484506/fertility-egg-freezing/

  126. Heidi says:

    @Hugh Mann: That’s so sad, and entirely her own doing. And I cannot wish for her desire to be fulfilled, for if it were the child would probably have a mostly-absent mother and no father–unless the surgeon were to quit her profession and waste her training.

  127. Hugh Mann says:

    @Heidi – that’s why for the majority of medical students to be female (as is the case in UK) is a disaster both for national IQ and for medicine.

    The more years of education a woman has, the fewer children – this is true even outside the West. Medicine is extremely competitive to get into, so the girls foregoing babies for careers will be the brightest and most conscientious ones – all qualities that should be being passed on to the next generation. Most will still have one or two – for which see next paragraph.

    As for medicine, it turns out that only the childless lady doctors – and sometimes not even them – want to work full-time for 35 years. The majority of female GPs (general practitioners, the ‘family doctor’) work part time. So you need to train twice as many medical students as you did before, to end up with the same numbers of bodies at the medical coal-face. And all these part-timers need to recertify and keep the professional skills up to date – a workload that’s identical for full and part timers. It’s a huge waste of resources.

  128. feeriker says:

    Sharkly says:
    January 9, 2019 at 1:52 am

    Once again, you’ve nailed it.

    To the detractors who assert that “abandoning the ‘church'” is the wrong answer, I ask you if you believe that the Scriptural admonition to not forsake the assembly of believers is a mandate to continue to assemble with people who clearly are not walking the talk and who are, in fact, clearly not genuinely part of the Body. This would be akin to demanding that a healthy person infect themselves with a debilitating disease. Surely the purpose here is NOT to command believers to do something that weakens the Body of Christ rather than strengthens it. For true believers “fellowship” with false teachers, heretics, and the unrepentant is to sacrifice the healthy to the sick and degenerate, hardly harmonious with Jesus’s plan for His church.

  129. DR Smith says:

    Meanwhile, meet the newest Globalist Marxist Convergence ambassador., John Cena:
    https://lovehasnolabels.com/about/we-are-america/

    Apparently, someone has something on him someplace…..or the pull of lamestream Hollywood is too much. I do find it curious this pops up about the same time he is staring in one of the latest blockbuster action movies (Bumblebee – can’t avoid the ads for it if you try)

  130. BillyS says:

    Feeriker,

    That Scripture was not covering Sunday morning service attendance. It was telling those from a Jewish background to not forsake Christianity to return to Judaism. That is completely different than how that Scripture is used today.

  131. Midwest_Product says:

    7817 says:

    >This is too simplified. Some janitors work very hard. Slaves work very hard. Work in itself does not confer status.

    This reminds me of an obnoxious thing Elon Musk regularly says (paraphrasing): “people who don’t work 100 hours a week don’t change the world.” I mean, sure, but just because most people who change the world work long hours doesn’t mean most people who work long hours will change the world.

    Variations on this same logical error are everywhere if you look for them (“Most convicted rapists are men, therefore most men are rapists,” e.g., or “most terrorists are Muslims, therefore most Muslims are terrorists.”) Pastor Foster here makes the exact same mistake: “most of the men I respect are hard-working, therefore it must be the case that I respect all men who work.” But he doesn’t, and neither do the women in his flock.

  132. kingfisher says:

    I like J.D. Vance here: (from https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/tucker-carlson-health-of-nations-markets/)

    Ben Shapiro: “Supply and demand economics has powered most of the world’s human beings out of extreme poverty, and led to the richest society in human history. It has allowed us to live longer, in bigger houses, in more comfort. It has meant fewer dead children and more living parents.”

    J.D. Vance: “To put a particularly fine point on it: Our economy has not produced fewer dead children and more living parents in America, at least not in the section of the country where I live. The opioid epidemic, in particular, has ravaged whole communities — driving down life expectancy, depriving children of their parents, and parents of their children. ”

    “There is, of course, a tension between acknowledging adversity and fighting to overcome it. It is a tension I’ve struggled with in my own life, and one that runs through my book Hillbilly Elegy. We can and should promote a cultural sensibility that values agency and personal responsibility. But if the conservative answer to people’s real problems is “we can’t talk about them, because it promotes victimhood,” then we are fighting a battle that we both deserve to lose and will lose.”

    That’s somewhat my 40 year experience with Conservatism and the church until it went crazy with feminism. Life is messy. A lot of bad things happen to the good and the bad. I’ve seen so much retreat into simple arguments, gated communities of many forms and self interest. And little taking responsibility and putting values into practice when it costs you something.

  133. Frank K says:

    Apparently, someone has something on him someplace…..or the pull of lamestream Hollywood is too much.</blockquote?

    I'm sure that that 7 to 8 digit paychecks might have something to do with it.

  134. DR Smith says:

    Frank K –
    I’m sure you are right, but I have not ever been and don’t ever plan to literally sell my soul to the devil for money. In fact, I turned down 3 attempts for my employer to put me on the management fast track, and I am still at the same employer for over 20 years now (I work one of the Big 3 US automakers).
    In today’s society, everyone needs money – however, you and and I can control how much we need to get by. Therefore, those that indeed do sell themselves out are only doing it for reasons that are antithetical to what the bible says and what any true Christian would do….hence they are false idols are should be abandoned instead of celebrated.

  135. BillyS says:

    The core problem is that money doesn’t solve poverty, especially poverty in the soul. Relative financial success just lets other corrupting factors loose. Thus the drug problems. Those are less of a problem when you can’t survive day-to-day. Even a hardcore druggie can get a lot of money from others to maintain the foolishness, so it continues.

  136. Pingback: Is Christian marriage only for elite women? | Dalrock

  137. ikr says:

    Ref: earlier comments regarding ages / milestones. Late to the convo.

    Jewish tradition holds that to be selected for a rabbi understudy, a Jewish boy would know the Torah by heart, word for word, able to speak to concepts / debate by age 12. Gifted boys would know some of the Prophets as well.

    The priest class / Levites would begin their service in the Temple at 30 and conclude at 50. I believe this to be why Jesus did not begin his ministry until 30: it is in keeping with the culture. (Related: Ma 5:17)

    Anecdotally, thanks to modern science, we know that the prefrontal cortex is not fully formed until 25. Having a sufficient database of life experiences could be accomplished by 30: time enough to make attempts post-adolescence at objectives to both fail and succeed. Also anecdotally, older men tend to lose their ‘bite’ with age. Aging fathers go easier on the younger children, seniors in the community sing the song of appeasement and nonviolence rather than standing ground on culture loss.

    It seems the bracket of 30 to 50 makes sense: you want spiritual leaders who are relevant but on fire. Too far left you are naive in your message. Too far right you are weak in your message.

    Church culture has held that women were not considered ‘elder’ until the age of 60 (ref: Tit 2). Makes sense: a girl was married by 15, raises a family over the coming 20 years. She becomes a grandmother likely by 45, she is training her daughter on how to mother (‘train the trainer’ concept). By 60, her mission then goes from breathing life into her family across the generations, to breathing life into women at large (per Tit 2). [I outright ignore any advice from a woman who is not blood-family and younger than 50 or so, regardless of how wise it may sound].

    Ages carried huge cultural implications with the ancient Jews. It alarms me in the modern West to see no rites of passage (earning one’s citizenship? test of resolve to becoming a man socially?) and ‘age is but a number’. More alarming is the havoc this has wreaked on women: no dear, your eggs at 30 are not the same as they were at 20, and freezing them will only make them worse.

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