Loud and proud complementarians: Tim and Kathy Keller.

I’ve been asked in the comments section of recent posts why I’m linking the gay Christian activist movement in the conservative church and complementarians.  These would seem to be entirely separate issues.  But there is astonishing overlap between the two movements.  The big players using deception to promote feminism in the conservative church are by and large the same big players using deception to push the gay agenda in the conservative church.

Today’s topic is Tim and Kathy Keller and their promotion of  Pastor Sam Allberry and his Living Out ministry.  Allberry is an editor at Tim Keller’s The Gospel Coalition (TGC), which along with the CBMW* is one of the twin flagship complementarian organizations.

Allberry promotes what he calls The Living Out Church Audit, which answers the question “How biblically inclusive is your Church?”  By biblically he means “LGBTQ”.   Allberry explains that Tim and Kathy Keller were instrumental in launching the audit (all emphasis mine):

At our Identity in Christ conference with Tim & Kathy Keller in June 2018 we launched our Living Out Church Audit – a tool to help church leadership teams answer this key question: how biblically inclusive is your church? Unsurprisingly our focus is on those who might identify as LGBTQ+/ same-sex attracted: Jesus included all in a counter-cultural way and we hope this audit will help our churches follow his lead.

While it is presented as an “audit” to see if a church is biblical, really it is a list of demands by and for gay Christians.  I’ll only cover some of the demands, but you can check out the full list here.

The first demand is that every church include LGTB members, reading from the SJW diversity is our strength script.  Homosexuality is to my knowledge the only sin that ostensibly makes a church better, the only sin that a congregation would be embarrassed if they couldn’t show proof of.  I certainly can’t imagine a group of gambling addicts demanding that every congregation contain compulsive gamblers:

1)  Your church family meetings include people who could be labelled LGBTQI+/ are same-sex attracted.

Readers might be tempted to assume that Allbery and the Kellers are merely demanding that every congregation include repentant homosexuals.  But not only does the audit remain silent in this regard, the Living Out what we believe page clarifies that it expects churches to include unrepentant homosexuals:

All those who contribute to Living Out are asked to assent to the Evangelical Alliance’s Basis of Faith (see below) and their Affirmations – found in their 2012 report Biblical and pastoral responses to homosexuality and best understood in that full context.

Item 10 in the Affirmations list is:

10. We encourage evangelical congregations to welcome and accept sexually active lesbians and gay men. However, they should do so in the expectation that they, like all of us who are living outside God’s purposes, will come in due course to see the need to be transformed and live in accordance with biblical revelation and orthodox church teaching. We urge gentleness, patience and ongoing pastoral care during this process and after a person renounces same-sex sexual relations.

Getting back to the audit, demand number 4 is a restriction on how pastors are permitted to preach on homosexuality:

Same-sex sexual relationships are never mentioned in isolation from other sinful patterns of behaviour, or from the forgiveness offered to all through faith in Christ crucified.

Demand number 7 is to put gays into all leadership positions:

A godly Christian’s sexual orientation would never prevent them from exercising their spiritual gifts or serving in leadership in your church.

Demand number 8 is to not promote marriage over singleness:

God’s gifts of either singleness or marriage are equally promoted, valued and practically supported in your church family’s life together.

Demand number 9 is to provide gays access to the homes of of the congregation:

Church family members instinctively share meals, homes, holidays, festivals, money, family life with others from different backgrounds and life situations to them.

Living Out provides more detail on this in The Church and Same-Sex Attraction.  The demand is access to the congregation’s children:

Nuclear families within the church need the input and involvement of the wider church family; they are not designed to be self-contained. Those that open up their family life to others find that it is a great two-way blessing. Single people get to experience some of the joys of family life, children get to benefit from the influence of other older Christians, parents get to have the encouragement of others supporting them, and families as a whole get to learn something of what it means to serve and be outward-looking as a family.

Allbery goes into more detail into what he is demanding in a speech he gave to ERLC 2018 titled The Church as the Family of God: Singleness, Same-sex Attraction, and the Hope of Hospitality**.  He explains that Jesus promises gay men that if they leave their partners they will receive access to the church’s children in return.  As examples of how this should work, Allbery describes driving congregants’ children to and from school and putting their children to bed at night.  Keep in mind this isn’t gays offering hospitality to families with children, it is gays demanding hospitality from families with children.  Allbery isn’t saying these are nice things gays might be able to do for families who are interested, he is demanding that gays be provided this kind of access to children and accusing those families who don’t comply of being unchristian.

Demand number 10 is that churches won’t ever pressure gays to attempt to change their sexual orientation:

No-one would be pressurised into expecting or seeking any “healing” or change that God has not promised any of us until the renewal of all things

*The CBMW promotes one of Allbery’s books here.

**H/T Thirty Pieces of Silver.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Complementarian, Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Loud and proud complementarians, Pastor Sam Allberry, The Gospel Coalition, Tim and Kathy Keller, Traditional Conservatives. Bookmark the permalink.

82 Responses to Loud and proud complementarians: Tim and Kathy Keller.

  1. The Question says:

    What Fake Christians say: “How biblically inclusive is your Church?”

    What the Bible says: “Are you not to judge those inside? Expel the wicked person from among you!”

  2. Damn Crackers says:

    Can I now have incestuous sex with my Father’s wife like in Corinthians?

  3. Damn Crackers says:

    I’d be better to hand your kids to Moloch than to the likes of Allbery.

  4. SnapperTrx says:

    When did the church become a lure for non-believers? My understanding is that the church is intended for believers, ie: Those who are already of the body of Christ! Not that a church should kick any non-believers out of its pews, but Western churches have done everything they could to make the church appear inviting to those who dont even believe and would get very little out of a church service anyway because they have no understanding of even the simplest of the Word. Hence the bible says the Word is as foolishness to them. I’m sure it has to do with the fact that most modern churches are actually businesses with mortgages to pay, electrical bills, internet, coffee shops, bookstores – they have to make money in the form of tithes and, naturally, the more stuff they add to the building the more money they need in their monthly coffers, but am I missing something else here?

  5. SnapperTrx says:

    10. We encourage evangelical congregations to welcome and accept sexually active lesbians and gay men. However, they should do so in the expectation that they, like all of us who are living outside God’s purposes, will come in due course to see the need to be transformed and live in accordance with biblical revelation and orthodox church teaching. We urge gentleness, patience and ongoing pastoral care during this process and after a person renounces same-sex sexual relations.

    Convert them in the streets, THEN bring them into the church, not before! A little leaven leavens the whole lump! You can’t introduce leaven and hope that it doesn’t do what its supposed to! These people are foolish beyond belief. Why do they think Paul called for people in these types of sins to be ejected from the church until such a time as they repent?!

  6. Crude says:

    Jesus included all in a counter-cultural way and we hope this audit will help our churches follow his lead.

    Jesus’ leadership was exclusively male, and the only mention of same-sex sexual activity in the Bible is harshly negative.

    The ‘counter-cultural Jesus who gave special attention to marginalized groups’ is utter myth.

  7. Anonymous Reader says:

    Church family members instinctively share meals, homes, holidays, festivals, money, family life with others from different backgrounds and life situations to them.

    Instinctively? That’s pretty funny. I guess that men instinctively love their wives just as women instinctively respect their husbands, and this is why there is no need for any instructions in the Bible to require that. Because human instincts are so very reliable guides to human conduct.

    This reminds me very much of the way women and feminized, Betaized men in churches are always so careful to urge people to Follow your Heart

    In my observation, a lot of human instincts are pretty selfish and even dangerous. Humans have to work, sometimes work rather hard, to keep instincts under control. Let’s not discuss sexuality. Instead, this can be easily demonstrated by observing the number of fat, angry women in the world who are sometimes seen along with fat, obsequious men.

    My instincts tell me that eating a lot of sugar is great fun, and anyone who tries taking my dark chocolate away is in for a lot of instinctual anger from my mouth. So that’s all good, then. Gluttony and anger are virtues. Male cowardice also.

    What could go wrong?

    Irony: the ancient Stoics had a better understanding of human instincts than modern church leaders.

  8. What specifically should members of conservative Christian churches do?

    Resisting such demands within your church will yield shout downs and labels that you are cruel, capricious, prejudiced, a bigot, a homophobe, and unchristian.

    I don’t understand why one would expect a Church which has already ignored or rejected The Word of God (the scriptures) to somehow right itself on questions of family headship, marriage and issues like homosexuality, etc.

    The Bible is riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions on almost social issues. It was only a question of time before social justice groups used these against it and masked themselves as Christians. The worms have wiggled through to the inside of the church and are now peering out of the windows to shout demands and judgements at you for throwing stones at it.

  9. Joe says:

    SnapperTrx says:
    December 4, 2018 at 1:09 pm
    When did the church become a lure for non-believers?
    *******************************
    The beginning of the end was the start of 501(c)3 back in the 50’s.

  10. Joe says:

    constrainedlocus says:
    December 4, 2018 at 1:38 pm
    What specifically should members of conservative Christian churches do?
    *****************************************************

    Just have Church at home with like minded friends.

  11. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Worse than the gay act is gay pride. When one is “loud and proud” of sin, isn’t that “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit,” which is the unpardonable sin?

  12. The Question says:

    This is why you should be suspicious of anyone who favors “open borders.” In reality, they are simply anti-boundaries, and it’s reflected in how they undermine the separation in every meaningful sense between unrepentant non-believers and the church itself.

    It really tends to start with the seeker-friendly church view of services as a time for evangelizing and catering toward non-believers, rather than centered around how the church members want to worship. Once you see worship time as something that should be marketed to people who aren’t in the church and don’t worship God, then everything else will ultimately be deconstructed and dismantled to placate non-believers.

  13. Crude says:

    What specifically should members of conservative Christian churches do?

    Resisting such demands within your church will yield shout downs and labels that you are cruel, capricious, prejudiced, a bigot, a homophobe, and unchristian.

    Trump endured that and won his election.

    So I suppose step one is “don’t let attacks like that shake you”.

    Step two is launch some (valid, truthful) attacks of your own.

    Too many good Christians react to leftists in their Church by leaving/fleeing and trying to find another one.

    Start fighting back, taking over, and show a willingness to burn everything to the ground.

    I’d go so far as to say that if you were a real troublemaker, join a converged church and cause some trouble there. Preach the truth.

    Granted, not everyone can do this. Some people don’t have the time, the patience, or even the skill – this kind of thing does require a skillset, I acknowledge.

  14. Anon says:

    RPL

    I believe blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is technically mis-attributing His work to that of the devil.

    It’s a sin that if you are worried you may be committing it, you probably aren’t.

  15. EPP says:

    Something similar happened during the colonization of America: theological differences between the dominant church in Britain and the would be colonists provided a fairly strong encouragement to leave the isles. Granted, these same colonists weren’t fans of one another either, but they left rather than have a bloody fight over it (which the French did). Face it, the pacifist approach to religious conflict is more or less boiled into American blood. Unless things progress to a point where there is literally nowhere left to go, I don’t see Deus Vult happening here. Personally, I’m holding out hope for space colonies.

  16. Dalrock says:

    Thanks Deti,

    The original link works for me, but it is good to have another one. I was looking for a non facebook link but couldn’t find one. Also, from your link I was able to pull the vimeo link from the original video and embed it into the OP.

  17. JRob says:

    Lexet Blog on December 4, 2018 at 1:57 pm

    Thank you for the link. Linked from there, also of interest and on topic from a previous Dalrock post:
    http://www.therealjohnpiper.com/

  18. GW says:

    How Biblically inclusive is your church?

    True/False/Not Sure

    1) Your church family includes those who could be labeled domestic abusers or wife beaters.
    2) Unfair suspicion of certain men who may be prone to rage would not be tolerated among church family members.
    3) All in your church know that we all experience fits of anger and all are being called to confess anger-related sins.
    4) Domestic violence is never mentioned in isolation from other sins.
    5) All in your church hear the same call to radical self-sacrifice, regardless of criminal record.
    6) All in your church are encouraged to develop an identity in Christ, although actually obeying his commands might be swept aside.
    7) A godly Christian’s past legal domestic issues would never prevent them from exercising their spiritual gifts or serving in the church.
    8) God’s gifts of singleness due to marital troubles or years of faithful marriage are equally promoted.
    9) Church members instinctively share meals, homes, money, and family life even with those with the most violent of personal histories.
    10) No one would be pressured into expecting “healing” or change of one’s violent temper that God has not promised.

  19. TMAC says:

    My church has a “Invite a rapist” night and we’re working on “Helping pedophiles integrate into your small groups” as well. I’ll let you know how everything works out.

  20. Jean says:

    The homosexual issue is so insidious. It’s a great tool of Satan to turn believers against each other. Josh McDowell’s book “The New Tolerance” was written in 1998, but it’s ever more relevant now that disagreement with the gay movement is “hate” and upholding Scripture is “judgmental” and “unloving.”

    The home is supposed to be a sacred place of protection for children against the forces of the outside world. If I, as an adult, decide to go all missional with people who struggle with serious sin, that’s one thing. But there’s no way they will be given fellowship with my minor children. Are people really that naive?

  21. anonymous_ng says:

    I browsed through this article at the grocery: https://harpers.org/archive/2018/12/the-vanishing-christians-in-iraq-syria-egypt/

    The headline made me think it was going to be about attacks on Christianity in the West, but of course not. War by the Muslims on Christians is hardly new, and certainly not part of the age of intolerance, it’s been going on for a thousand years. The age of intolerance is the West where none dare call depravity by its real name.

  22. Gage says:

    Why is anyone surprised that accepting homosexuality in the church is the new thing? The American church has long since given up its position as a bastion of Biblical Truth. What issue havent they caved on? Abortion? Feminism? Divorce? The sanctity of marriage? After token resistance, the Church caved like a house of cards on EVERY issue. Once pastors get comfortable defending homosexuals, they will move right on to the pedophiles and trannies.

    It would surprise me none, if in a few years, most of the big name christian authors and preachers have books out telling us how we should welcome and embrace pedophiles into our churches and homes because…Jesus. Forgetting the fact that Jesus specifically condemns those who cause the children to stumble( Matt 18:6).

  23. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I suspect that many gays demand admittance into Christian churches not because they believe, but to mimic normal behavior. Gays and trannies think that if they assume the trappings of normal society — church, marriage, children — then they’ll feel normal.

    Because they don’t feel normal. I’m sure a sense of brokenness gnaws at them. So they scream ever louder for acceptance — and when that doesn’t work, for celebration — to try and ease the pain.

    Rather than try to help them, society enables their mental illness, celebrating men in dresses who castrate themselves. But all the celebration and pride events can’t convince a male tranny that he’s truly a woman. Hence, the high suicide rates.

  24. Magneto2975 says:

    “How biblically inclusive is your church?” WTF! You can’t include Sodomy ANYWHERE in your church!

  25. I think Christians have been their own worst enemies on this question of moralizing on the subject of homosexuality. The Bible itself, the frequently-relied-upon shelter or crutch of Christians, is especially unconvincing.

    It is 100% correct that Christians and their member Churches have pretty much caved on the social and political issues of our time, including no fault divorce, the sexual revolution, birth control, abortion and feminism. Homosexuality is the last battle, which if we’re honest and not pretending, is pretty much already a lost cause. Gay marriage was legalized finally in the US three years ago, 2015. And here we are claiming we should fight against it inside the walls of churches like segregationists in the mid to late 1960s. That’s not going to end well.

    The thing that conservative Christians don’t seem to get is that the Biblical Scriptures and Word of God is not their friend on these matters. It doesn’t matter how many times you quote Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Timothy or Romans regarding the sinfulness of homosexuality, the gays and complementarians will just throw right into your face the Bible and shellfish:

    And all that have not fins and scales in the seas … shall be an abomination unto you: … Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
    Leviticus 11:10-11

    The Bible and slavery:

    Of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you … they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. Leviticus 25:44-46

    The Bible and dinner:

    It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Romans 14: 21

    The Bible and farming:

    Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together. Deuteronomy 22:10

    The Bible and the Sabbath. The Bible and mensturation. The Bible and virginity. The Bible and masterbation.

    Even gays recognize they are the last hurdle in the Christian church. Every other test has been dismissed and passed. And Christians have been reliable dormats on every one.
    The Sabbath itself is no longer kept nor regarded as Holy.
    So there questions of the Christian Church (gays demanding equanimity) are actually valid.

    At this point, what exactly are you really blathering about?

  26. Crude says:

    The thing that conservative Christians don’t seem to get is that the Biblical Scriptures and Word of God is not their friend on these matters.

    Sure it is. The Bible is clear on the topics, as is past teaching and tradition. Granted, it won’t convince a determined, angry homosexual or his overprotective mother, but who cares if they’re convinced?

    It’s like AIDS. It’s regarded, even now, as primarily a result of shameless gay men having objectively disordered sexual habits. They can “throw botched blood transfusions and female prostitutes” in our faces. Who cares? Who even believes it?

    And Christians have been reliable dormats on every one.

    Some have been, but some have always been. The Old and New Testament both testify to just how many times Jews and Christians have been weak-willed frauds.

    So there questions of the Christian Church (gays demanding equanimity) are actually valid.

    They’re only valid for people who have given up anyway. And for those same people, larger problems are on the horizon: churches that try to conform to the world, die. And the cost of arguing that the Bible can be bent on every topic, is that people will start to bend the topics people are fond of: like the ones about charity, forgiveness, violence, and more. The cost of treating Christianity as just another faith is that, when the muslims show up and start to respond to feminists and gays with blows to the face rather than meek arguments, no one’s going to have much to say. Except, perhaps, to have a good laugh at it.

    At the end of the day, weak churches continue to die, effeminate men continue to commit suicide or have low white blood cell counts, etc. Conflicts rage on.

    If all Christians were reliable doormats, you wouldn’t be upset.

  27. Paul says:

    Although I agree that some points could be interpreted more lenient than necessary, to be fair, the Affirmations of the Evangelical Alliance picture a far more nuanced approach than only item 10 seems to suggest, see for instance some of the other points:

    3. We affirm that marriage is an institution created by God in which one man and one woman enter into an exclusive relationship for life. Marriage is the only form of partnership approved by God for sexual relations and homoerotic sexual practice is incompatible with His will as revealed in Scripture.

    6. We oppose church services of blessing for civil partnerships and other forms of gay and lesbian relationships as unbiblical and reject any redefinition of marriage to encompass same-sex relationships.

    7. We commend and encourage all those who experience same-sex attraction and have committed themselves to chastity by refraining from homoerotic sexual practice.

    9. We believe both habitual homoerotic sexual activity without repentance and public promotion of such activity are inconsistent with faithful church membership.

    As I interpret it, the Affirmations sound mostly like orthodox evangelicalism to me, where people who live in sin and are not Christians yet, are invited into the Christian community, in order to share the gospel with them (Item 10). I’ve seen this same approach widely been used towards people engaging in other sins too.
    And I do think it has some example in the way Jesus moved along sinners, where He first tries to reach out to sinners, before addressing their sin.

    I know some of you are of the opinion that only born-again repentant sinners should be allowed in a church service, but I disagree with that.

    I also recognize that it is very difficult to strike the correct balance between living holy as a Church, and addressing sin in the congregation, as well as being inviting enough to share the gospel with sinners who have not come to the realization that they are living in sin.

  28. Magneto2975 says:

    “I know some of you are of the opinion that only born-again repentant sinners should be allowed in a church service, but I disagree with that.”

    Actually, in the ancient practice of the Church that is exactly the case. As the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins, all those who are not properly disposed to receive it are supposed to leave (that would include penitents and those studying to enter the Church). We say, “The Doors! The Doors!” – and the deacons are supposed to shut the does after the penitents leave – then the Nicene Creed is recited and the Eucharistic service begins.

    If you receive the body and blood of Christ without repentance, and without confession of your serous sins, it will be a curse to you instead of a blessing, and perhaps results in your death. This would include those wearing “LGBTQ Ministry Team” name tags.

  29. @Crude,
    I’m not upset.
    I am perhaps a little confused.
    On the one hand, I am hearing we have got to fight this insidiousness, stop it and root it out of the church.
    On the other hand, let Thine Will Be Done.

    The outcome of all things is not in doubt.

  30. Dalrock says:

    @Paul

    As I interpret it, the Affirmations sound mostly like orthodox evangelicalism to me, where people who live in sin and are not Christians yet, are invited into the Christian community, in order to share the gospel with them (Item 10). I’ve seen this same approach widely been used towards people engaging in other sins too.

    You are missing the loophole they deliberately left in item 3 for “Spiritual Friendships”, the lifelong non sexual domestic partnerships that Nick Roen demands and that Revoice was about. For those keeping track, gays are to be welcomed even while they admit they are still having gay sex, and the church is to be patient with them while they decide if they want to stop their rebellion. Then, if gays decide to stop having sex they can form a publicly acknowledged domestic partnership so long as they assure us they aren’t having gay sex in their gay domestic partnership. Either way, if they do keep having sex after deciding not to the response is to be more patient.

  31. info says:

    @Joe
    ”Just have Church at home with like minded friends.”

    Reminds me of the house churches in China.

  32. info says:

    ” The cost of treating Christianity as just another faith is that, when the muslims show up and start to respond to feminists and gays with blows to the face rather than meek arguments, no one’s going to have much to say. Except, perhaps, to have a good laugh at it.”

    ISIS threw gays off rooftops.

  33. Scrutiniser says:

    Meanwhile, Living Out encourages the “community house” called the “Cwtch”:

    http://www.livingout.org/resources/anne-and-abby-on-their-community-house

    “We spoke to church leadership about our ideas and they were very supportive. One of our concerns was the assumptions that people would make if we set up home together, but our minister was helpful in reminding us that our responsibility is to live in a pure way and not deliberately mislead people, but also not be overly concerned about misunderstandings. Inevitably, there will be some people who will jump to the wrong conclusions initially, but we can’t control what everyone thinks. We seek to be open and transparent and when people come round they can see that we each have our own rooms. We’re fortunate that we’re not the only single people in our church who are modeling this way of living. There are two ladies in their 60s who have shared a house for 30 years and go on holidays together. There are also two girls in their 30s who share together and enjoy experiencing companionship and practising hospitality in that way.”

  34. Scrutiniser says:

    If a man is attracted to other men, Living Out has “serious concerns” about him aiming to change this:
    http://www.livingout.org/can-your-sexuality-change-

    “Where people have tried to change, we see evidence that such sexual orientation change efforts may have some effect, although we still have serious concerns with making this a goal, as we explain in this article.”

    [Please delete last 2 comments; sorry]

  35. Robert What? says:

    The typical go-to line of activists trying to shove the LGBTQWXYZ agenda down the Church’s throat (sorry) is that adiltery and fornication are also sins, and those people are not banned from the Church. But of course adulterers and fornicators generally don’t publically announce and “take pride” in their sins. They generally don’t celebrate it and certainly don’t insist that others celebrate it with them.

  36. Pretty sure these guys are all going to give us an electrifying new meaning for “Glory Holes”

  37. Frank K says:

    The typical go-to line of activists trying to shove the LGBTQWXYZ agenda down the Church’s throat (sorry) is that adiltery and fornication are also sins, and those people are not banned from the Church.

    Adulterers, fornictors and pro abortion types can be excommunicated. While that doesn’t completely ban them from the church, it prevents them from receiving communion and holding positions of authority, and participating in general in parish activities. Yeah, adulterers can attend Mass, as long as they sit quietly. Of course these days few Bishops have the stomach to excommunicate people, but some still do.

    What really gets to me is that they are demanding access to the children. In the wake of the priest pedophile scandals my parish has some pretty strict protocols regarding access to children. Allowing homos to have unsupervised access to them crosses my mind as a criminal act.

  38. Kevin says:

    I am of two minds on these past few posts.

    There is probably something for Christians to learn from the repentant former homosexual sinner. Paul had a special mission in part because he knew the language and ideas of Rome and the Hebrews and he had been a thorn in the side of Christians. Maybe some repentant gays really do have an important role to play in reaching out to others. My problem is, as our host has identified, the Christian homosexual does not seem to represent Christ to the homosexual community they always seem to want to represent the gay community in the church. Their loyalties and energies don’t go toward helping gays repent, they go towards getting Christians woke about the amazingness of same sex identity. This is what makes me suspicious of them, but if I saw a former homosexual trying to live their live and minister to active gays I think they would be doing a great work for Christ.

    As for welcoming people – everyone should be welcomed into churches repentant or not. But if they accept Christ and join a church, then sin and will not repent, then is when they should be cast out. Christ ate with sinners, we should be likewise. He also called everyone to repent without reservation. We should do likewise.

  39. Dalrock says:

    @Kevin

    Maybe some repentant gays really do have an important role to play in reaching out to others. My problem is, as our host has identified, the Christian homosexual does not seem to represent Christ to the homosexual community they always seem to want to represent the gay community in the church. Their loyalties and energies don’t go toward helping gays repent, they go towards getting Christians woke about the amazingness of same sex identity. This is what makes me suspicious of them, but if I saw a former homosexual trying to live their live and minister to active gays I think they would be doing a great work for Christ.

    Nailed it.

  40. feeriker says:

    My church has a “Invite a rapist” night …

    I know you’re kidding, but seriously, in any given church today, as long as they’re gay or paedophile rapists they’ll probably be welcomed with open, loving arms.

    Single, white, heterosexual, chaste males, on the other hand …

  41. RobJ says:

    “Audit.”

    These Cultural Marxists sure know how to establish frame with their Useful Idiots. What’s the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word “audit?” Probably the IRS. I’m sure that this single word, all by itself, will be enough to persuade many “conservatives” to give in to their demands.

  42. feeriker says:

    “Audit.”

    These Cultural Marxists sure know how to establish frame with their Useful Idiots. What’s the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word “audit?” Probably the IRS. I’m sure that this single word, all by itself, will be enough to persuade many “conservatives” to give in to their demands.

    The CMs certainly know their targets very well. “Audit” is a business/financial term, and since most churches are businesses in all but name, the prospect of any kind of “audit” being conducted, with all that the term implies, is enough to send bowel and coronary spasms among the leadership.

  43. BillyS says:

    Info,

    Finding those “like minded friends” is far harder than many realize. Meeting in homes is good, but I see nothing against meeting with a larger group as well. It is not an either-or proposition, though finding the group to meet may be challenging.

  44. BillyS says:

    One of the core problems here is that the modern Christian Church is too focused on getting people into services to change them instead of having those meetings be places to connect and train those who already believe to go out and do the work of outreach. It is a bad focus and this is just one of the fruits of it.

    You don’t have to bring evil people in, you just have to reach them in the world and disciple them, some of which may happen inside a church building.

  45. Spike says:

    Why can’t Albery, the Kellers and the like NOT understand one simple, fundamental truth about the cult of Cultural Marxism:

    They hate Christian’s guts.

    That’s it. Pure and simple. Again and again, demands are made: ”recognize the damage done to indigenous people by the church. Recognize the damage done to divorcees by the church. Recognize the damage done to gay people by the church. Recognize the damage done to new migrants by the church ……” The grievance list goes on and on in perpetuity.

    Once an apology or any admission of any sort is obtained, the way cleared to ramrod through the list of demands: Change Change Change Change Change.

    In the case of LGBTIQ, they will NOT be pleased nor happy until your church is desecrated by their having an orgy in it, with your communion altar draped with a Rainbow Flag and used for sex. Don’t believe me? Look at any music video with a pentagram in it: Christina Aguilera or Kesha had a couple of classics a while ago, filmed in churches or church mock-ups with an orgy happening in them.
    What you, dear congregant will get out of it is the ability to serve your new parishioners with ”Christ-like humility”, cleaning up the stained mess they have made.

    The Spirit of Jezebel is in them, which is the spirit of the devil.

    Make no concessions. Give them nothing.

  46. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Christian cartoon accused of promoting whiteness: https://www.theblaze.com/news/christian-cartoon-veggietales-secretly-teaches-kids-to-hate-non-whites-says-whiteness-forum

    “VeggieTales” — a Christian cartoon featuring talking vegetables and hosted by a tomato and a cucumber — is racist, according to a college “whiteness forum” held Thursday at Cal State San Marcos.

  47. Opus says:

    I much like what Red Pill Latecomer writes at 04.27. I recall (how could I forget) once attending whilst in the United States a seminar where a homosexual addressed us as to his lifestyle normalness. No normal person needs to do that. It thus seems to me that just as women play at being soldiers and certain white people at being Negroes (or Native Americans), Homosexuals play at being ‘normal’. In a word what they are doing is a form of Cargo-culting where if they appear to acquire the trappings of noirmality then they are normal. – but it isn’t so any more than when I wave my baton at some gramophone recording am I really conducting the Vienna Phil (though it certainly looks as if I am).

    My experience of the Homosexually inclined is that they are both predatory and promiscuous (both something normal men are not and it is their predatoriness and promiscuity that leads to homosexuality not the other way round) – the rest is just window dressing.

  48. Paul says:

    @Magneto : ” As the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins, all those who are not properly disposed to receive it are supposed to leave”

    So sinners were in the church, but are not allowed to participate in the Eucharist?
    I think Evangelicals would fully agree with that, minus removing people from the service.

  49. Paul says:

    @Dalrock : “For those keeping track, gays are to be welcomed even while they admit they are still having gay sex, and the church is to be patient with them while they decide if they want to stop their rebellion. Then, if gays decide to stop having sex they can form a publicly acknowledged domestic partnership so long as they assure us they aren’t having gay sex in their gay domestic partnership. Either way, if they do keep having sex after deciding not to the response is to be more patient.”

    That could be one, and very lenient interpretation, which I disagree with. The Affirmations start with “we are conscious that different evangelicals might apply certain of these points in different ways, but we believe that, taken together, they reflect an authentic, mainstream evangelical response to homosexuality in general and sexually active same-sex partnerships in particular”

    So these Affirmations allow some room for difference in interpretation for subscribing churches.

    I think the crucial difference is if you allow homosexual relationships for Christians. I think the Affirmations clearly denies such a possibility. They do indeed leave open the possibility for two people to live together in a non-sexual relationship. That’s a slippery slope both for heterosexuals and homosexuals. The leniency towards homosexual relationship is only granted for a limited time to non-Christians in which you teach them the biblical viewpoint. I do recognize that some churches might be stretching that too much.

  50. Paul says:

    @Kevin: “My problem is, as our host has identified, the Christian homosexual does not seem to represent Christ to the homosexual community they always seem to want to represent the gay community in the church. ”

    I do recognize these things happen, but we should be careful here. I make a distinction between people with SSA and people engaging in homosex. Both groups are put in the category ‘gay community’. I don’t have sympathies for people trying to push an active homosexual lifestyle in the church, as it is sin, no question about it. I do sympathise with people with SSA that understand that homosex is sin, and therefore do not engage in it. I think the church has been hostile to these people, and rejected them from their midsts. I think that is wrong. I recognize that at least part of what some here label as ‘gay activism against the church’, is more about trying to influence some churches to accept ‘celibate SSAs’.

    Again, it’s difficult to strike the right balance how and when to address sin with a non-believer.
    The examples we have from the NT don’t show that the first thing that is shared with a group of non-believers is how sinful they all are.

  51. Paul says:

    @Nick

    Yeah the whole woman mentoring thing taking a nosedive due to #metoo.

    Woman need man-toring like fish need a bike.

  52. James says:

    Dalrock, I listened to the entire sermon by Allberry. You made a really good call on this one. As I listened I realized that, taken on an individual, line-by-line basis, every statement Allberry says is correct (the truth is the best lie). The deceit is how he cobbles together these statements to say, as you point out, that “same sex attraction” people should be invited to your home to be with your kids (he spends a lot of time making the point about them being with your kids).

    Examples of what is true:
    1.) Jesus told the rich ruler to give up his riches. So, we may need to give up things we love in order to follow Christ. That could include a same-sex relationship.
    2.) Jesus said that we will receive good things here as a result of following him, including a new family.
    3.) Single people should not be neglected by the church (Allberry makes his transition here from talking about gay people and starts talking about single people in general, which would also include the same-sex attracted people who are now single, having given up a relationship).
    4.) Single people should be invited into your home to share your family life. (This is true objectively, such as inviting a single woman to be a babysitter, for example.) That includes helping to put your kids to bed.

    On thing that is not necessarily true is that Allberry says you need to invite other single people to raise your kids with you (as in, it takes a village) – or else your kids are going to be weird.

    So, Allberry makes one true statement followed by another, statements that can’t really be challenged on an individual, isolated basis – while also making a leap about mid-point in his sermon from “same-sex attracted people who have given up a meaningful same-sex relationship” to: “all single people” needing to be brought into family life.

    Note also, that Allberry describes the community that same-sex attracted people need to be invited into is the nuclear family (yours, and mine, by the way) and not church groups, events and ministries.

  53. GW says:

    Paul: “I do recognize these things happen, but we should be careful here. I make a distinction between people with SSA and people engaging in homosex.”

    The problem is that “gay” identity, of which “SSA” is included, is a lie. One doesn’t wake up one morning suddenly attracted to other men. It happens for many reasons social, familial, and most importantly spiritual. A boy entertains perverse thoughts he shouldn’t.

    The use of acronyms to identify one’s unwholesome desires (lusts) to one’s identity is done to sanitize sin. Christians need to be shrewd enough to discern this. Merely granting “SSA” as a legitimate point from which to have a “discussion” is allowing evil a foothold. In Jude’s day, men were infiltrating the church to “pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality.” We are right to reject those who openly identify with their perverse thoughts and demand acquiescence from others.

    I didn’t stop being attracted to other women once I married my wife. The idea that temptation is unique among a certain segment of men, and that these men deserve empathy for their sinful thoughts, is of anti-Christ. Jesus never empathized with sin.

  54. Crude says:

    Note also, that Allberry describes the community that same-sex attracted people need to be invited into is the nuclear family (yours, and mine, by the way) and not church groups, events and ministries.

    There’s various tricks/touchstones these groups engage in when it comes to discussing LGBT nonsense.

    * Admonitions about sex/relationships are as fast, vague, and generalized as possible. In fact, I believe the admonitions in question here straightforwardly say you should never single out homosexual relations – you must always condemn some other sin too, immediately. (It has to be ‘crowded out’, never focused on.)

    * That is, in essence, where the admonition to LGBT ends. No criticism about joining LGBT activist groups. No admonitions to avoid pro-gay hangouts or culture. No addressing the many, many, many problems with these groups, their displays, their signals.

    * That is also where the demands for everyone ELSE begins, culminating in a laundry list of things you must do to help, encourage and entertain LGBT people, making them feel welcome and comfortable in every way, and also ensuring they have authority and power in every aspect of life. No attention is given to what standards should be in place before doing any of this – no mention of warning signs, things that would indicate a person isn’t suitable for teaching your children or running your church.

    * It is always, always stressed that LGBT people are victims, period. I’ve even seen some ‘Christians’ say – “Just know that no matter what, an LGBT person’s life is harder than yours, and always will be.” The idea that an LGBT person can victimize a Christian is not supposed to really be entertained as a possibility – and if they did something wrong, it must be because the scars and pain in their life are so deep (and probably due to a Christian) that it’s simply tragic.

  55. Paul says:

    @GW : “The problem is that “gay” identity, of which “SSA” is included, is a lie.”

    I agree that we should not foster some magical “gay identity”.
    It is however a fact that some people feel attracted to the same sex. Reality shows it is a complex phenomenon. Often these people don’t have a desire for these feelings, and struggle with it, or try to get heterosexual feelings. It often doesn’t work. Look at the whole Exodus International debacle. Or NARTH.

    ” It happens for many reasons social, familial, and most importantly spiritual. A boy entertains perverse thoughts he shouldn’t.”
    Since when did you become the expert on the origin of SSA feelings?

    Do you know how many sincere Christians have prayed to have their feelings changed, and it didn’t happen? Do you want to label them as sinners?

  56. Paul says:

    @James : As I listened I realized that, taken on an individual, line-by-line basis, every statement Allberry says is correct”

    So you didn’t find a single false statement? OK, that’s quite a statement.

    ” (the truth is the best lie).”

    Wow. You know how wrong that is, on many levels?

    If you really think someone is uttering clear falsehoods, feel free to correct them, but you must be aware you also have a responsibility against falsely accusing someone.

  57. Paul says:

    @James : “Note also, that Allberry describes the community that same-sex attracted people need to be invited into is the nuclear family (yours, and mine, by the way) and not church groups, events and ministries.”

    Allberry is describing Christians that have SSA, I think. These are your brothers and sisters. And I agree it is good to share family life with other Christians. Of course such can and should never be enforced. However, it is good to remind each other to be hospitable

    Tit 1 “An elder must be [..] be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered [..] Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined

    1 Pet 4 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling.

  58. Crude says:

    Allberry is describing Christians that have SSA, I think. These are your brothers and sisters. And I agree it is good to share family life with other Christians. Of course such can and should never be enforced. However, it is good to remind each other to be hospitable

    I await the day lectures come to LGBT people about how they should be hospitable, what their responsibilities are to non-LGBT Christians, and more.

  59. Novaseeker says:

    The trouble with many of these advocates is that they want to construe things very narrowly — that is why they affirm the prohibitions on gay/lesbian sexual activity, at the same time they want to permit everything up to the border of that as not being prohibited. This is known as playing with fire, and for good reason.

    The Catholics have an expression about avoiding “the near occasion of sin”, that is avoiding situations in which one well knows one will be tempted to commit a sin. This is why, for example, the church has never been supportive of heterosexual couples who are attracted to each other and romantically involved with each other to live together while vowing to remain celibate — it is asking for trouble because you are placing yourself in an inherently temptation-laden situation. For gay people it is no different — the ‘spiritual friendships’ are in reality romantic liaisons that they claim are not sexually active, but again it is playing with fire because of the temptation involved. It is deliberately placing oneself in a situation where one knows one will be very tempted to commit a sin. The gay advocates respond that this is unfair because hetero couples can get married whereas they cannot marry people of the same sex and so therefore are condemned to romantic loneliness — and that isn’t true, but it’s also the reality if one is to be a Christian. I do think that the church needs to do more to support gay people who are in that situation of romantic loneliness, rather than marginalizing them in our churches that are made up mostly of married couples, but I’m not sure how to do that. The church today in general isn’t really about single people, whether gay or straight, and is mostly about married people with children — likely a broader problem.

  60. Ernst Schreiber says:

    romantic loneliness

    Now that’s a phrase in need of unpacking!

  61. Gunner Q says:

    Paul @ 9:40 am:
    “Tit 1 “An elder must be [..] be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered [..] Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined””

    You deliberately omitted “…and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.”

    To the CHARGE of wild and disobedient. “I’m sexually attracted to your kids but don’t worry, I’ll be celibate around them” is how the Vatican got stuffed with kiddie diddlers.

    THEY WILL LIE TO YOU. Why is this hard?

    How about the Christian Church start forcing people to be repentant at a long distance from their primary temptations? If I was a priest, I wouldn’t make a point of leading the college girls group. If I was a recovered drunk, I wouldn’t rent the second floor of a bar. If I was a repentant homo, I wouldn’t get involved in family ministry–and the typical neighborhood church does nothing but family ministry.

  62. Javier says:

    If you’re catholic, all of your leaders are already gay.

  63. Pingback: The guard in the tower shouts “Lower the drawbridge and unbolt the door!” | Dalrock

  64. Frank K says:

    To the CHARGE of wild and disobedient. “I’m sexually attracted to your kids but don’t worry, I’ll be celibate around them” is how the Vatican got stuffed with kiddie diddlers.

    That colossal lapse in judgement and the nuclear fallout that followed should serve as a warning to all against even considering those empty promises.

  65. Daniel says:

    It is however a fact that some people feel attracted to the same sex.

    A Biblical way of saying this is that some people commit extreme fornication, and go after different flesh. Calling it SSA sanitizes it, as others have noted.

    We would certainly tell a recovering drug addict to avoid his old “friends” who are still using. We would tell him it’s not wise to hang out in a crack house, even to be a missionary. Not unless he’s been reformed for many years and in no danger of relapse. Why then would we encourage repenting sodomites to remain part of the “gay community?” Shouldn’t we take this as evidence that they are not repented, when they constantly put themselves in temptation?

    Similarly, we would not approve if a man moved in with his neighbor’s wife, even if they call it a platonic “Spiritual Friendship.”

  66. Hose_B says:

    God’s gifts of either singleness or marriage are equally promoted, valued and practically supported in your church family’s life together

    It’s not a choice of singleness or marriage…….it’s a choice of celibacy or marriage.

  67. GW says:

    Daniel is exactly right.

    Paul, quit making excusing for sin. The Bible never does.

  68. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Javier: If you’re catholic, all of your leaders are already gay.

    At least they have the decency to try and hide in the closet. Hypocritical, perhaps, but it has been said that hypocrisy is the compliment that vice pays to virtue.

    Which is worse? Which has the greater negative impact? Hypocritical gay priests who preach traditional family values? Or hetero evangelicals who celebrate gay inclusiveness?

  69. Paul says:

    @GunnerQ:

    You deliberately omitted

    Not really, I just wanted to point out that hospitality is an important virtue for Christians.

    I’m sexually attracted to your kids but don’t worry, I’ll be celibate around them

    We were talking about Christians with SSA, not pedophiles.

  70. Paul says:

    @Daniel

    A Biblical way of saying this is that some people commit extreme fornication, and go after different flesh.

    No, it is not. We were talking about Christians with SSA that live celibate.

  71. Paul says:

    @GW

    Paul, quit making excusing for sin.

    I do not excuse sin. I clearly stated I think homosex is sin, and the Church should be clear about that. I also think that SSA in itself is not sin.

  72. Paul says:

    @Jose

    it’s a choice of celibacy or marriage

    Technically speaking all people with SSA are allowed by the church to marry and have sex, but the only valid marriage is between man an woman.

    If you’re absolutely revolted to have sex with the other sex, stay celibate.

  73. Crude says:

    Paul,

    We were talking about Christians with SSA, not pedophiles.

    [How Age of Consent Laws Affect LGBT Teens.](https://www.liveabout.com/how-do-age-of-consent-laws-affect-lgbt-teens-1415624)

    Some choice quotes, with emphasis added. Note that the site linked is quite pro-LGBT.

    “Age of consent laws are designed to protect teens from adult predators. Sometimes they can end up punishing kids in non-coercive situations. It is really important for LGBT teens, who already face hurdles when it comes to their sexuality to know the law and how it affects them.”

    “The age of consent is the age that a person can legally agree to have sex. A person over the age of consent who has sex with someone under the age of consent can be charged with a crime for having sex with the younger person, regardless of whether or not the younger person agrees to have sex.

    “On May 1st, 2008, the age of consent for vaginal sex was raised to 16, but the age of consent for anal sex was not lowered from 18. This upset many people in the gay community who viewed this as discriminatory and pointed out that under this law two 17-year-olds having anal sex could be charged with a crime.

    It’s amazing that LGBT organizations can be massively and publicly devoted to lowering age of consent laws, getting into schools, getting representation in children’s cartoons, have underage sex scandals like mad in the Catholic Church, and still there are people mystified or even horrified at the suggestion that LGBT people may pose a greater-than-normal risk with regards to their influence on children.

  74. Sharkly says:

    @Paul

    I usually agree with you, and find your arguments sound. However, I don’t agree with you on this:
    “I know some of you are of the opinion that only born-again repentant sinners should be allowed in a church service, but I disagree with that.
    I also recognize that it is very difficult to strike the correct balance between living holy as a Church, and addressing sin in the congregation, as well as being inviting enough to share the gospel with sinners who have not come to the realization that they are living in sin.”

    1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[b] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

    2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    I have no faggot Christian brothers, because there are none. God tells us not to be deceived about that. We are to cast out the wicked from among us, and to have no company with “brothers” who are in unrepentant sin, but to shame them for their sin. God said it, I believe it. There is no place in the church for abominable faggots, we are to be holy. Those who have happy thoughts about fucking another dude’s hairy shithole, need to be shamed for their insanity, if they reveal it. And I will even continue to shame and laugh at those brethren who are unnecessarily effeminate in other ways. There is no balance between living holy as a church, and addressing sin in the congregation. You do both as fully as you can! You try to flee from evil yourself, while confronting and holding anybody else, who claims to be a Christ follower, to God’s word also. Patriarchs hold those around them morally to account. When they stopped doing that, we all lost our God ordained patriarchal culture, to what has now become a sewer of sodomites and their apologists wearing “churches” like a skin-suit.

  75. OKRickety says:

    Novaseeker said: “The church today in general isn’t really about single people, whether gay or straight, and is mostly about married people with children — likely a broader problem.”

    Is it any wonder that churches often struggle with attendance when they largely ignore nearly 50% of the adults in society? In 2016, about 45.2% of people in America age 18 and older were unmarried. That is, indeed, a broad problem, one for which I think the church is partially at fault. The church of recent years generally has not taught that marriage is important and desirable, that marriage is a life-long commitment, nor that married people should struggle to avoid divorce.

  76. Paul says:

    @Sharkly : thanks for your thoughtful response. Let me clarify

    1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one

    Of course I fully agree with this. I think it is sexual immoral to have homosex. I don’t think it is sin to experience feelings of being attracted to the opposite sex (SSA). As you rightly quote, this verse tells us to NOT associate with sexual immoral known Christian (not even eat with them), but does “encourage” (“not at all”) us to associate (!) with the sexual immoral OF THE WORLD, in order to bring them the gospel. It’s the sick that need a doctor as Jesus taught us.

    So I think we should strongly oppose homosexual acts among Christians, make it clear it is sin, but on the other hand be supportive of those Christians who struggle with the feeling of being attracted to the same sex but have chosen to resist that urge, and do not engage in homosexual acts and therefore chose a life of celibacy. And I think we need to strike a balance between being open and inviting and hospitable and associating with non-Christian sinners in order to share the gospel with them, and addressing their sins. Many non-Christians are at first so alien to the concept of sin, it does not make sense to START with that. That’s also the pattern that Jesus and the apostles show us.

    So I think the point where we might disagree on is that I think SSA is in itself not sin, whereas you seem to suggest otherwise.

    And my points do not mean I endorse any of the writers of the articles Dalrock refers to; I surely have not fully read their material, except where mentioned.

  77. Paul says:

    @Crude

    It’s amazing that LGBT organizations can be massively and publicly devoted to lowering age of consent laws, getting into schools, getting representation in children’s cartoons, have underage sex scandals like mad in the Catholic Church, and still there are people mystified or even horrified at the suggestion that LGBT people may pose a greater-than-normal risk with regards to their influence on children.

    Again, we were talking about Christians with SSA, not pedophiles. And I should add “living celibate” to avoid any possible confusion. I’m not aware that these are pushing such an agenda.

  78. shawn says:

    @Dalrock,

    Allberry writes a disturbing book review of a children’s book about a gay-affirming 11 year old: through the book’s offering of “real people,” it is “humanizing…homosexuals” not as “stereotypes” but as “normal people who happen to be gay.”

    The Gospel Coalition and a Children’s Book about Homosexuality:
    http://pastormathis.com/index.php/2017/06/27/the-gospel-coalition-and-a-childrens-book-about-homosexuality/

  79. Pingback: Chandler: Every Christian should have a gay friend. | Dalrock

Please see the comment policy linked from the top menu.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.