Feminine wiles

Commenter Joe describes how his wife used her feminine wiles to get his attention 32 years ago:

[I went] to a singles class thinking that I’d find a girl to my liking to marry. And I did. Actually, she found me there. Even though she remembers her first day sitting next to me, I’ve no recollection of that. I just remember her butting into one of my conversations. Her first words to me were “I’ll help you”. This was another month or two after her first day. Until she spoke to me, I didn’t know she existed. Bottom line: she showed an interest. So I let her help me. She painted the inside of my rent house all day with me. She specifically pointed out how she was dressed that day ( old T-shirt and jogging shorts) as if to apologize for looking so scruffy. Buy hey, we were just painting. And I found her little shorts and tight old t-shirt quite fetching LOL. Still do 32 years later!

The thing is, if one hot woman in the group had noticed what a catch Joe was, all of the women in the group had to have noticed the same thing.  This was a Christian singles class, so all of the women there were ostensibly looking for a husband.  Fortunately for Joe’s wife, the other women were waiting for him to boldly declare his desire to take them on a paid date with the hope of courting them for marriage.  Joe’s (now) wife wasn’t about to stand back and let one of those bitches steal her man.

The reality of course is that all but the most clueless Christian women eventually figure this out, which is why we see so many women suddenly marrying in their 30s and even early 40s.  The women who marry late in life didn’t suddenly get thinner, prettier, or sweeter.  Nor did their options suddenly improve.  Their options in fact got worse over time, as smart women like Joe’s wife poached all of the best prospects, leaving the slowpokes to duke it out for the leftovers.

I had NO IDEA who she was! Never laid eyes on her before.
All I could see was that she was a 5’10” brown eyed 125lb stunner. So “yeah sure you can come help”!!
Turns out she was and still is a VERY hard worker.

We still laugh about that day and how she showed herself off to me so obviously and the tension between us.

As obvious as it was, it was also deniable had nothing come of it.  Here was a Christian sister offering to help a brother in Christ.  It would be different if she made a habit of doing this for all of the attractive men in the group, which is why it is important for a woman to learn her SMV/MMV as quickly as possible so she can aim high, but not too high.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Beautiful truth, Death of courtship, Finding a Spouse. Bookmark the permalink.

86 Responses to Feminine wiles

  1. earl says:

    IMO…Joe’s story is probably the best pick up line a woman could use to get the attention of a man she fancies.

    ‘I’ll help you’

  2. Pingback: Feminine wiles | @the_arv

  3. 9767 says:

    Met my wife in a college Sunday school class… the very first day she gave me her phone number “in case I needed help with anything on campus”…! In fact, I did!

  4. earl says:

    Seems to be a pattern developing here…hopefully the women lurkers figure it out.

  5. Hank-T says:

    “other women were waiting for him to boldly declare his desire to take them on a paid date with the hope of courting them for marriage”

    I’m not confident that’s true. The fact that these women are at a singles event makes no difference. Women really don’t want a man to annoy her until she decides he’s worthy of her attention and he’s suitable. Women are inherently cold unless she’s the aggressor, which doesn’t happen that often. These women are everywhere including church. They quite enjoy their own company, their domestic pets, and their girlfriends. They appear to be more interested in congregating with other women as a barrier to the men they are supposed to meet.

    This is why I suggest arranged dating is more successful than meeting anyone casually.

  6. Dalrock says:

    @earl says:

    Seems to be a pattern developing here…hopefully the women lurkers figure it out.

    There is also an embedded message for single men. The “traditional” dating model isn’t an efficient way to generate attraction, and unless you have excellent game it is in practice an attraction killer. Ideally you should be able to generate and recognize attraction before you decide to ask a woman out. If you aren’t generating IOIs in the course of your regular day, you need to up your game.

  7. Samuel says:

    I prefer taking the first step, but some women need to step down from their high horse and be more approachable. I wish only the best for Joe’s marriage and hope that will continue for eternity.

  8. I’m fortunate in that my wife made unequivocal IOI’s. I do not mean indications of promiscuity. I mean comments and jokes that one may, in looking back, see as precious or adorable. I wasn’t looking for a wife at that moment to be sure.

  9. Vyasa says:

    “There is also an embedded message for single men. The “traditional” dating model isn’t an efficient way to generate attraction, and unless you have excellent game it is in practice an attraction killer. Ideally you should be able to generate and recognize attraction before you decide to ask a woman out. If you aren’t generating IOIs in the course of your regular day, you need to up your game.”

    I have a question about this – what do you if as a man you are generating attraction from women, but it doesn’t go anywhere.

    Personal problem: I went to a religious convention a few months back. Afterwards I had a few girls hitting me up on FB, snapchat, text. I mean, I didn’t initiate conversation, they did. So far so good, right?

    Except when I tried to keep it going/getting them out on dates, it all kinda just disappeared. It’s hard to explain, but it’s as if the girls signaled interest, I showed interest, but because of distance/time issues (mostly on their end), it just died out.

    It’s as if the girls get the part about them having to show IOIs, but then they just sit back and expect the guy to have perfect game/entertain them. There’s no effort on their part – perhaps because they were 23-26 in age and thus not feeling the urgency to get married, so they don’t actually take it seriously. This quote from a previous Dalrock article: “She didn’t mess around when she spotted my dad; she got busy.” – really doesn’t apply to these girls.

    Concrete example: One particular girl at the convention – giving me hard IOIs, asks me for phone number, takes girlfriend pose pictures with me at convention, super excited (at least early few days) when texting me (“Hiiiiiiiiii”). We talked about marriage at the convention, she even asked if I would be looking for a wife back home. I’m thinking: “Hey, this is exactly what Dalrock and the crew were talking about – clear IOIs, she’s the one initiating”

    I tell her I’ll be in her town in a few weeks, and we should get together. Her: “Oh I can’t meet up. I have friendsgiving.”

    Friendsgiving…

    So friendsgiving or meet up with potential future husband…I guess friendsgiving was more important? I was really confused too, because she kept mentioning marriage, kids, etc. I feel like women today just expect marriage is just going to happen, that they don’t have to work to catch a guy, or as was so aptly put “to get busy”.

    I’m at my wits’ end. Not sure how to proceed. I think I might just let this one slide. She doesn’t seem to want “to get busy”, which forces ME to “get busy”, and that might end up being an attraction killer. It makes me wonder if that’s a common theme – guys exasperated by the lack of effort on women’s part are forced to try to keep things going, which inadvertently makes them comes across as needy.

    Not sure what to do, and any advice would be appreciated. I mean I guess I can just wait till these girls are 28-30 in age and suddenly feel the pressure of marriage. Ironically, that age group I do have an easy time with, they actually DO get busy and almost pursue me. But is that really my only choice (besides developing airtight game)?

  10. earl says:

    It makes me wonder if that’s a common theme – guys exasperated by the lack of effort on women’s part are forced to try to keep things going, which inadvertently makes them comes across as needy.

    That’s the theme I seem to run into as well.

    Unless I do something…nothing really happens. It’s not being needy, it’s trying to do something to see if anything is there. But then again perhaps you reveal the truth…they might have shown interest, but they were never really interested.

  11. Cane Caldo says:

    @Vyasa

    Personal problem: I went to a religious convention a few months back. Afterwards I had a few girls hitting me up on FB, snapchat, text. I mean, I didn’t initiate conversation, they did. So far so good, right?

    Except when I tried to keep it going/getting them out on dates, it all kinda just disappeared. It’s hard to explain, but it’s as if the girls signaled interest, I showed interest, but because of distance/time issues (mostly on their end), it just died out.

    Social media IOIs or attempts at connection should not be trusted. Many women will attention-seek on social media when merely bored. They will also attention-seek on social media to multiple men at once because she knows the individual men have no proof she is flirting with five or six men at one time. From her perspective: What is the harm by online flirting with her fourth choice? He’ll never know he’s being kept in orbit for just-in-case.

  12. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    If you aren’t generating IOIs in the course of your regular day, you need to up your game.

    Or move. Maybe both.

  13. Anon says:

    Vyasa,

    Afterwards I had a few girls hitting me up on FB, snapchat, text. I mean, I didn’t initiate conversation, they did. So far so good, right?

    Not necessarily. Social media contact is merely women trying to recruit beta orbiters. Most clueless betas oblige.

    A basic male skill is the ability to do daytime approaches. It is as fundamental as any other male skill.

  14. Cane Caldo says:

    @Vyasa

    It’s as if the girls get the part about them having to show IOIs, but then they just sit back and expect the guy to have perfect game/entertain them. There’s no effort on their part – perhaps because they were 23-26 in age and thus not feeling the urgency to get married, so they don’t actually take it seriously. This quote from a previous Dalrock article: “She didn’t mess around when she spotted my dad; she got busy.” – really doesn’t apply to these girls.

    Excepting the “professional failures”, this is wrong. A woman who is strongly attracted to a man will look for ways to please him; without any prompting on his part, and no matter what the consequences. What you have observed is that these girls aren’t attracted to you. That may be because they have no idea of their own league. It could be because you actually are beneath their league (i.e., you should up your game). It is likely both. I say that because most men don’t try to bat way out of their own league; so I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you trying to play in the right ballpark.

  15. LT Lurker 1T Commenter says:

    Ideally you should be able to generate and recognize attraction before you decide to ask a woman out. If you aren’t generating IOIs in the course of your regular day, you need to up your game.

    How do you do this without being overtly showy?

  16. earl says:

    Ideally you should be able to generate and recognize attraction before you decide to ask a woman out.

    That hasn’t been my problem…it’s finding women who show some submissive qualities that’s the hard part. Even the empowered can show me attraction indicators…it’s when you get to know them that you figure out they want to wear the pants instead of you doing it. Hence they leave because it’s not my role to submit to them.

  17. Jeff says:

    Vyasa,

    Get off your f+++ing social media.

    It’s for bloggers and women.

    Make them find you

  18. earl says:

    Get off your f+++ing social media.

    It’s for bloggers and women.

    LOL…you’re right.

  19. Lexet Blog says:

    Bail. You will magically not be able to be in town, or if you are, you will not make any mention of it. Don’t initiate any texting. Ghost her

  20. Bee says:

    Dalrock,

    “This was a Christian singles class, so all of the women there were ostensibly looking for a husband. ”

    I don’t think this is true for all the women.

    I spent years in several different Church singles groups. I met lots of women who did not want to get married or did not want to get married anytime soon. I had a blind date with a Christian woman who was too focused on being a missionary to Europe to allow me to have a second date.

  21. Joe says:

    The thing is, if one hot woman in the group had noticed what a catch Joe was, all of the women in the group had to have noticed the same thing.
    **************************************************************

    Oh They did! The stories I could tell…

    I finally picked the tallest, prettiest one who worked hard and had a good heart and had the desire to quit work and be a stay at home mom and wife. And while it doesn’t make logical sense, there was also, (and really primarily), an indefinable chemistry and connection that started before we met. I could write a book about that.

  22. feministhater says:

    How do you do this without being overtly showy?

    Honestly, there is a big contingent of men who will never be able to attract the kind of woman they would want for marriage. No matter the amount of ‘game’ they employ. They are simply not attractive enough. The women they could get don’t induce much in them and the women they are attracted to have vastly better options.

    This only works for the top tier of men; an attractive woman would pursue those men like Dalrock, Cane and Joe explain, but they will under no circumstances pursue men who do not fit into that category.

    You could perhaps fool them for awhile but it won’t work for marriage.

    This post is more for women looking to snag one of the few attractive men they really want before another sister does, it is not for men. If women don’t pursue you, you’re out of luck.

    Best of luck to you mate.

  23. feministhater says:

    Oh They did! The stories I could tell…

    Don’t be another Jeff, it gets old real fast.

  24. Joe says:

    “Concrete example: One particular girl at the convention – giving me hard IOIs, asks me for phone number, takes girlfriend pose pictures with me at convention, super excited (at least early few days) when texting me (“Hiiiiiiiiii”). We talked about marriage at the convention, she even asked if I would be looking for a wife back home. I’m thinking: “Hey, this is exactly what Dalrock and the crew were talking about – clear IOIs, she’s the one initiating” I tell her I’ll be in her town in a few weeks, and we should get together. Her: “Oh I can’t meet up. I have friendsgiving.”

    There are are four possible scenarios which can explain her behavior.

    Scenario 1: You didn’t mention the subject of the religious convention. If the subject of the convention was NOT about marriage, it seems that talking about marriage with the girl giving you hard IOI’s is premature. It would be better to discuss something related to the convention while at the convention. You may have come across as needy and scared her off. She may have thought you might show up with a diamond ring and propose.

    Scenario 2: You were at the convention and she was at the convention, both of you I assume were away from home or was the convention in her home town? If you both were away from home, she may have been simply looking for a one night stand with her hard IOI’s. If the convention was in her home town, she may have been signaling to her girlfriends that she can get a man – in other words she still has “it.”

    Scenario 3: She may have felt the urgency to marry and knows the wall is getting closer. She has a boyfriend back home and wants to reassure herself that she can get another man if it doesn’t work out with her boyfriend.

    Scenario 4: She is at a convention and feels obligated to be friendly to her brothers in Christ. She is your sister in Christ. It was all for show; devoid of any meaning.

  25. feministhater says:

    Would the real Joe please stand up?

  26. @Cane Caldo
    Moving may sound like an extreme reaction but that I know what you’re talking about.

    For some odd reason, I have found the particular evangelical bubble I landed in in Texas and at a large evangelical university as being one of the most socially insular groups of human beings I have met in my life. Nearly impossible to get a look in. If it wasn’t for a brief summer romance with a Czech exchange student, I tended to have serious worries that I was in some sense fundamentally defective in the eyes of the opposite sex. I had a lot of friends, a strong social network, got along well with virtually everyone (ranging from artsy communists, to borderline cult Calvinists). However almost as one, the women gave me no thought.

    Oddly enough, whenever I met Christian women outside of the bubble, from other parts of the country or from other countries full stop, it was all really normal. Shoot, even non Christian women. Some liked me, some didn’t, some on the fence, just normal. I was “good enough” to play the game, I just wasn’t good enough for whatever is going in Texas evangelicalism.

    There’s a lot of chest thumping about how feminism is all coastal city tramps and how there are plenty of “real women” in the countryside and the “flyover” states and in church. I suspect that’s a lot of nonsense. Things have gotten really weird inside evangelicalism socially and I mean weirder than even the pagan world in some regards.

  27. @Cane Caldo
    Moving may sound like an extreme reaction but that I know what you’re talking about.

    For some odd reason, I have found the particular evangelical bubble I landed in in Texas and at a large evangelical university as being one of the most socially insular groups of human beings I have met in my life. Nearly impossible to get a look in. If it wasn’t for a brief summer romance with a Czech exchange student, I tended to have serious worries that I was in some sense fundamentally defective in the eyes of the opposite sex. I had a lot of friends, a strong social network, got along well with virtually everyone (ranging from artsy communists, to borderline cult Calvinists). However almost as one, the women gave me no thought.

    Oddly enough, whenever I met Christian women outside of the bubble, from other parts of the country or from other countries full stop, it was all really normal. Shoot, even non Christian women. Some liked me, some didn’t, some on the fence, just normal. I was “good enough” to play the game, I just wasn’t good enough for whatever is going in Texas evangelicalism.

    There’s a lot of chest thumping about how feminism is all coastal city tramps and how there are plenty of “real women” in the countryside and the “flyover” states and in church. I suspect that’s a lot of nonsense. Things have gotten really weird inside evangelicalism socially and I mean weirder than even the pagan world in some regards.

  28. Jeff says:

    Lexet,

    You don’t have to “Ghost” if you are not there. Lol. Not responding is immature and playing into the games they play. Just don’t be available… at all.

    My son is 20, fights wildfires, has a drop dead gorgeous GF and he has never done fakebook, twatter, intaspam etc. She found him and so have many young women. So many that my wife use to constantly worry about him and still does in this “sexual assault because you looked at me world”.

    His friends are all on social media except my son and one other, his friends are always asking the two of them how they get girls attention so much. Neither my son or his friend know why girls are attracted to them, but it’s obvious. ZFG. My son’s friend has a contract to enter BUD/S and my son wants to be a smokejumper before or if he enters the Navy which I am discouraging. He has been with his GF for 1 1/2 years and has tried repeatedly to end it (not because he is disinterested, but knows the life he wants would be hard on her and them), but she is not having it and said she is all in. Unfortunately I do not have advice for him because at his age I just used girls and didn’t care for a relationship because I was too self absorbed in my own activities and education.

    There are things I cannot teach him because I love him too much.

  29. earl says:

    Neither my son or his friend know why girls are attracted to them, but it’s obvious. ZFG.

    They probably have strong frame.

    You can tell which guys have it and which don’t…heck you can tell it from how people comment here.

  30. feministhater says:

    Seems to be a pattern developing here…hopefully the women lurkers figure it out.

    What exactly is this pattern? I see it as women going for the alphas, as all of them do, and being lucky enough to snag her one of the few willing to get married.

    I bet there are plenty of young women who follow this ‘pattern’ down to the letter and end up jilted lovers of Jeff’s son. There isn’t really a difference between the two but the fact that Joe decided to get married and Jeff’s son wants to be rid of her.

    This does not work for those not in the top tier of male attractiveness, stop giving hope where there is none.

  31. LT Lurker 1T Commenter says:

    This only works for the top tier of men; an attractive woman would pursue those men like Dalrock, Cane and Joe explain, but they will under no circumstances pursue men who do not fit into that category.

    In that case, let me ask this from a different angle:

    What does an attractive man whom a woman would pursue look like to them – is it going to be a tall, well-groomed, well-dressed, muscle-bound man who smells good?

  32. earl says:

    This does not work for those not in the top tier of male attractiveness, stop giving hope where there is none.

    Who said I was giving hope…I’m seeing the pattern. If you don’t have the top tier to make a woman dig you…then that’s your cross.

  33. Rudolph says:

    Vyasa re women seem interested but you can’t close anything. I think Joe’s scenarios are rather on point.

    They just wanted asked. They’re looking for the validation of being asked/wanted/thinking they can get a guy et al. (I was in a bar and last call was served and a gal I’d been eyeing but was with a group of guys (who’d all left without her) was suddenly friendly and flirty. She’d tried to work me for a beer but I didn’t bite. But the chat was pleasant and so I asked if she wanted to go get breakfast and she high-fived herself that she still had it and left.)

    Women communicate covertly so she wasn’t indicating what you think she was indicating. They communicate covertly so thought you meant something else.

    Even nice girls are looking for “Alpha” and you bit on their “Beta Bait.”

  34. feministhater says:

    What does an attractive man whom a woman would pursue look like to them – is it going to be a tall, well-groomed, well-dressed, muscle-bound man who smells good?

    Ask women, don’t ask me. You won’t get a proper answer from them though. However, they know exactly the men their panties drop for. If the panties do not drop, you’re not in that tier.

    Or just be well over six feet tall, make well over six figures, have a full set of hair, be extremely fit, have a high status job with some fame thrown in as well; you know, the cream of the crop in all spheres, not just looks or money but in all of them. Then women will swoon over you and perhaps remain with you through life willingly.

    You can spend your time, money and effort trying to get into that tier or you can simply live your life on your own terms.

    It’s obvious that either Joe is lying or he is an alpha, he now even wants to regale us with stories of how all these women threw themselves at him, he also wants to write a book on the chemistry him and his wife felt before they even met.. slightly absurd if you ask me but there it is.

  35. feministhater says:

    If you don’t have the top tier to make a woman dig you…then that’s your cross.

    Neither do you, nor do most men, thus you are giving false hope.

  36. earl says:

    I don’t give out false hope…I’m looking at reality. Besides if your hope is in if a woman digs you or not…then that is false hope.

  37. Josh says:

    My experience: When I got saved at 21 I tried to witness to a female friend from my past who was interested in God. Turned out she was already saved and attending an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church.

    Decided to try to wife her, despite her being from another country and me essentially signing up to helping to get her whole family out here. White Knight ho! Asked her Dad if I could ask her out and he greenlighted me. She went along with it reluctantly because she was huge on education and career and knew I wanted SAHM. Her brother was courting another lady at church who was my future wife, so we did things in fours.

    It wasn’t working out with the brother and my future wife because he wanted her to get a career and go full business but she wanted to SAHM.

    In every convo we had as a foursome my future wife and I ended up nodding together vs our current partners. Both relationships ended after 3 months, and then my future wife manifestly hunted me down. I lived far from church but she offered me a lift “on her way” which was actually 10km out of it. She made it super clear she was interested and when I wouldn’t bite because I was still burned from the last relationship, she amped it up by pointing out we wouldn’t be able to keep chatting forever because she’d end up liking me too much and would get burned again.

    Started courting and was married less than 6 months later. Now 11 years in. First two years were a nightmare (massive test where she was convinced I’d leave her so pushed me like crazy, plus residual resistance to my authority from being raised in the world) but stuck it out until good preaching and the Holy Spirit broke her then the last 9 have been heavenly.

    I’d recommend a good IFB church to anyone. Some are no good but when you find a good one it is a huge blessing. Its your best chance at a submissive wife imo. There were times when she fought me hard on Sat night, then ended up broken at the altar on Sunday morning when the Pastor picked up what the Word of God had to say about marriage and headship and preached it with zero fear. Even we she talked to her lady friends at church they all backed the husband by default.

  38. squid_hunt says:

    @LT Lurker

    How do you do this without being overtly showy?

    Not everyone is a meaty muscle-head with bowls of charisma and confidence. It’s crap to believe you have to be that guy to get a woman.

    I used to go on visitation for years with a pastor who could start a coversation with anyone and hold it for an hour. I would finish the street while he was talking to the first person we came to. I couldn’t be that guy if I tried. (And I tried.) I finally realized that and stopped trying to be him.

    You have something you’re good at, something you excel at and you enjoy. Use that. Do that. Quit worrying about what the women think about you because when you worry about what they think about you, they can smell it and they don’t like it. I would recommend finding a way to do your skills,whatever they are, in a social setting with other people who like to do those things.

    If you are the most awesome LARPer on the face of the planet and you show up at LARPing events, the entire rest of the world is going to think you’re a huge nerd, but the women at that event are going to think the slime you put on the muscles of your Orc suit to make your skin glisten are really hot.

    @greenmantlehoyos

    I agree with everything you just said about being in the south in evangelical circles. I’m IFB and there are the most ridiculous hierarchies in churches. It’s a bunch of pageantry and nonsense that is really good at putting people off instead of getting people in.

  39. Novaseeker says:

    I would recommend finding a way to do your skills,whatever they are, in a social setting with other people who like to do those things.

    If you are the most awesome LARPer on the face of the planet and you show up at LARPing events, the entire rest of the world is going to think you’re a huge nerd, but the women at that event are going to think the slime you put on the muscles of your Orc suit to make your skin glisten are really hot.

    This is true, however …. you still need to be in the top 10-20% of the LARPers to get the attention. It’s much better to be competing in a pond where you have shared interests and a competency at them, but even in those contexts, the rest of the socialization package matters, and women will gravitate towards the sexiest, most socially competent LARPers there … best be one of them.

  40. Pingback: Feminine wiles | Reaction Times

  41. squid_hunt says:

    @Novaseeker

    Apparently I was the hottest greasy floor sweeper at my McDonalds, then.

    Like I told my wife when we were selling our overpriced, run down house in the middle of nowhere: It only takes one. Women’s tastes in men are not across the board. Doing what you do best makes you more attractive because you’re more confident. Joe just gave us the story about how all the other women at the singles group ignored him until his wife snatched him off his feet and dragged him to his house to paint.

  42. Novaseeker says:

    It only takes one.

    I agree fully — provided, however, that you are attracted to her. If not, it may take more than one.

    I’m not trying to be difficult, squid. I agree generally that it makes sense to being in situations where you are displaying mastery over something because that makes you more attractive due to confidence — agreed. But there is still competition. You can increase your odds of winning the competition (in the sense of attracting the interest of a woman you actually find attractive) if you make yourself generally more attractive in addition to putting yourself in situations where your mastery can shine.

  43. Hazelshade says:

    The latest reminders to wait for IOI’s have been helpful, thanks to those behind them. I’m in turn reminded of a study Chateau Heartiste posted awhile back, wherein a woman showing interest positively influenced the attractiveness rating given her by a man, but a man showing interest had no influence on the attractiveness rating given him by a woman.

    @Dalrock

    “As obvious as it was, it was also deniable had nothing come of it. Here was a Christian sister offering to help a brother in Christ. It would be different if she made a habit of doing this for all of the attractive men in the group, which is why it is important for a woman to learn her SMV/MMV as quickly as possible so she can aim high, but not too high.”

    You definitely nailed it in the first two sentences. I don’t even think her making a habit of the help technique until it worked would be a big deal beyond a possible envy factor, as long as she took the hints and moved on if nothing came of it. Guys don’t mind gals showing interest; they mind gals actually slutting it up. I think the woman would probably not take much if any MMV hit by trying such a technique until it worked.

    This is of course the opposite of the way a lot of these masculine women in the OP are taught, where showing interest in being dependent upon a man is ridiculed, while being able to slut it up without being dependent on partners is empowering. Totally wrong; men do not love sluts. Men love women vulnerable enough to give obvious IOIs, but smart enough to understand n-count, or even perceived kiss or hand-holding count. That is to repeat your point that it is good for a woman to learn her SMV/MMV.

  44. squid_hunt says:

    @Novaseeker

    If all else fails, you can always try the Boomhauer approach.

    Not even going to pretend I know how to embed a video.

  45. squid_hunt says:

    Hey, look at that. Didn’t do that on purpose.

  46. Dalrock says:

    @Hazelshade

    You definitely nailed it in the first two sentences. I don’t even think her making a habit of the help technique until it worked would be a big deal beyond a possible envy factor, as long as she took the hints and moved on if nothing came of it. Guys don’t mind gals showing interest; they mind gals actually slutting it up. I think the woman would probably not take much if any MMV hit by trying such a technique until it worked.

    It is an interesting question. How often would be too often? I think for most men the turn off would be if the group saw her as throwing herself at man after man. This would come from other women (envy, as you say), and it would depend on whether the men in the group saw the women as being catty or thought they were on to something. I do think there is such a thing as too much, but I think you are right that there is a lot of leeway here.

  47. patriarchal landmine says:

  48. ray says:

    Good for Joe and double good for his wife.

    The whole thing was initiated by the female doing what GOD CREATED HER TO DO, which is to help, please, and comfort the male. ‘I will help you.’ She was not created to be his superior and his supervisor, which is where satan’s system of Equality led for the nations of the West . . . with America leading the charge to hell, proud of her rebellion.

    Every nation that adopted, or will adopt, the cult of Equality/Egalitarianism either will self-destruct, or be given over to destruction by another nation (i.e., the ruling angel over that nation). There will be no exceptions and that especially includes America.

  49. Dalrock says:

    @Anon

    A basic male skill is the ability to do daytime approaches. It is as fundamental as any other male skill.

    I think this is true, although the specifics would depend on your goals. On the PUA side this would mean pushing for sex as soon as possible and quickly nexting the rest. For a Christian man looking to marry I would suggest getting used to playful banter and other general purpose game skills that are appropriate in everyday interactions. The more you get comfortable exercising the skill the better you will get. Hawaiian Libertarian had a post years ago about game where he talked about using it in everyday interactions with women. One example benefit he described (as I recall) was a waitress comping him a free piece of pie. When you do it right, it is fun for you and for them, and it doesn’t have to have sex as the end goal.

  50. ray says:

    Cane Caldo — “What you have observed is that these girls aren’t attracted to you. That may be because they have no idea of their own league. It could be because you actually are beneath their league (i.e., you should up your game).”

    Vyasa:

    Game is lame. Don’t take this advice from Cane Caldo, Dalrock, Roosh de Doosh, the Supreme Dark Lord Teddie, or anybody else selling this fad. Every Guru has their own idea of what ‘game’ is, and young men/boys attempting to internalize and practice the endless techniques and vocabulary of game will be lost and ultimately disappointed. There is NO easy street towards attracting females. Certainly not by misrepresenting who you are by adopting artificial techniques that sound really cool.

    Boys and young men should be instructed by Christians to IMPROVE THEMSELVES in tangible ways — spiritually (principally by studying and grokking the Bible), psychologically, physically, etc. Not by adopting the personality cults and ‘secret guaranteed techniques’ of the game gurus. Make yourself more acceptable in the eyes of God, and let the girls respond to that. Practicing game is becoming what women want, or find superficially desirable. Men don’t bend themselves to women, and fit themselves to women’s expectations. They become what God intended for them to be, and let the rest of the chips fall.

  51. earl says:

    Make yourself more acceptable in the eyes of God, and let the girls respond to that.

    Agreed…mold yourself into God’s will…then a woman might mold herself into yours.

    I’m in turn reminded of a study Chateau Heartiste posted awhile back, wherein a woman showing interest positively influenced the attractiveness rating given her by a man, but a man showing interest had no influence on the attractiveness rating given him by a woman.

    A man by the name of Thomas Hodge who wrote the book ‘The System’…pretty much agreed with that. He said the relationship only goes anywhere if the woman has high enough interest in the man and the relationship doesn’t last if she never had interest or she decides she isn’t interested anymore. The man’s interest in the woman didn’t matter much because it’s assumed if he’s asking her out…he has some interest.

    Now remember this is in the time of feminism…in a patriarchal society it would be more about who the father chooses for his daughter.

    You would think in theory if she’s interested she would submit to the man’s frame…not always the case in reality and you’ll eventually find this out.

    Besides there isn’t some magic formula to make a woman interested in you…she either is or isn’t. Some guys can get it easier and some guys may never get it. That’s life…it’s not equal.

  52. Joe2 says:

    “Besides there isn’t some magic formula to make a woman interested in you…she either is or isn’t. Some guys can get it easier and some guys may never get it. That’s life…it’s not equal.”

    Yes, that is very true. Like the scenarios I posted earlier, just about anything is possible,

  53. mgtowhorseman says:

    The engagement ring of my wife of 30 years has six diamonds in it. One for each day we dated.

    We went to high school together, hung out but as friends, knew her and her brother. Good strong family folk. Went to college, had a few modern gils as girlfriends, quickly knew whst I didn’t want.
    After college remet at a friends wedding. Spent the night talking about life, family, etc. Said all she wanted was to be a wife and a good mother, she was not interested in “modern dating.”

    She asked me out for the next Saturday. We had a good time. Spent every day of that week together.
    On Friday I asked her if she wanted a June or July wedding. She said “we will get married in the fall.”

    A year and a half later in October we married at the ripe age of 24. That was thirty years ago next month.

  54. mgtowhorseman says:

    Lt lurker

    “What does an attractive man whom a woman would pursue look like to them – is it going to be a tall, well-groomed, well-dressed, muscle-bound man who smells good?”

    I don’t know. I often asked as at the time I was skinny, tall, a bit awkward and a junior clerk, “what did you see?”

    She said she saw me for four years of school. I was a hard worker, I stood up for my beliefs and lost friends over it, I defended the high school outcast crowd without being one of the nerds. At the wedding she remembered I said I wanted to be a better father than my father.

    She saw the potential. The strong father and husband waiting for a chance.
    And I saw not the shy chubby girl but a woman whose calling was to be a mother and helpmate wife.

    Then again this was the mid 80s before social media and the other crap.

  55. mgtowhorseman says:

    I think it was a different time.

    Feministhater rightly said “However, they know exactly the men their panties drop for. If the panties do not drop, you’re not in that tier.”

    We got together not because of sex. In fact both of us had been thru the 80s miami vice bar scene and tired of the “if you think I’m sexy” shallowness. We were both looking for seriousness, for a mate, not a fuck. Luckily the gods put us in the same room.

    Sex did come but by happenstance not during that first week, and not because of moral issues, we were just enjoying each others company. (Neither of us were virgins).

    And now in our mid fifties she is still my helpmate and is still my sexy wife.

  56. Vyasa says:

    Saw a lot of really good comments here in response to my questions. Thank you, don’t have much time to respond, but will definitely take the time to think through each one of your responses.

  57. JRob says:

    My gal IOId by letting me know she had 59 acres “if you’d like to hunt on it sometime” and made me a pie.

    Further research indicated she had a flip phone and detested/rejected all social media. Widow married at age 22. *SOLD*

    *disclaimer: no AMOGing intended or implied. No such thing as NAWALT. Some assembly required.

  58. Burner Prime says:

    A good point made toward the end was one of plausible deniability. Women almost always have this get-out-of-jail-free card to play. Men never do. Women can do all kinds of crazy things, subtle and overt, at work, any social situation, and on-line. This includes a recent Twitch thot who painted her breasts while streaming. “It was ART, get your mind out of the gutter, I’m no slut.” Like that meme with the big-breasted lady (Hello? My eyes are up here…). In a way this supports the idea that women historically initiated relationships. They’re the ones who evolved to wield a near bullet-proof deniability, while men faced ostracizing ridicule and tribal banishment for any failed bust-a-moves.

  59. Jim says:

    It’s obvious that either Joe is lying or he is an alpha

    Don’t fool yourself feministhater cunts will fuck over so-called alphas in the end too. I’ve seen it happen.

  60. Dale says:

    mgtowhorseman

    >…we married at the ripe age of 24. That was thirty years ago next month.

    Congratulations on 30 years! That is wonderful.

  61. Joe K says:

    I’ve been reading for 5 years and maybe comment once a year.

    Ray is spot on, especially @5:11 – that comment. I am not Christian at all but grew up in a very conservative Christian household that subscribed to ever FotF publication there was (magazines, book series, other publications) – and though I’m rather ZFG about the decrepit state of modern Christianity, reading here about how Glenn Stanton and company (Lisa Anderson to a lesser extent) are still pushing this version of Christianity as vagina worship / qualifying – brings back some bad memories. It is the woman’s role to be a supportive nurturer to the man first and foremost. If you seek whatsoever to qualify yourself to her ‘checklist’ or demands or whatever, you’ve already got a losing hand. Now, where you find women who endeavor to be helpful and beneficial to men (rather than demanding of them) from the outset, good luck with that these days.

    But my point is, good points by Ray who is obviously Christian even through the lens of someone (me) who’s not.

  62. Hale says:

    – Boy: I don’t know why I ever asked you out.
    – Girl: You didn’t. I asked you out. … Backwards Day, remember? If I had waited for you to ask me… oh, brother!

  63. imnobody00 says:

    I can relate. After a entire life of being with high maintenance women that were always complaining and bitching, 10 years after the woman I loved (a real bitch) dumped me and married a Frenchman (she is divorced now), leaving years of heartbreak and destruction. After all the sadness and sorrow and loneliness, after all that … I met my wife.

    I was not impressed when I met her for the first time. She was from a very religious fundamentalist family and, although 20 years my junior, she had an awful dress, an awful hairdo and no makeup. I usually don’t pay attention to these things but these were extremes that even a Neandhertal like me could notice.

    When she met me, she struggled to know me more and become the woman for me. She started going to the gym, learn how to dress and make up, converted into my church. She was there where my father got cancer. She was there in my most beta moments, loving me and accepting me as I am. And she was proud of me every time. She made me feel the most important man and more loved man in the world. Always loving, always patient, always supporting me, always happy to be with me. Honestly, I didn’t know a woman like this could exist.

    We married last August 18. I feel really thankful. There are many men that are better than me, there are many men that are less sinful that I am. There are so many men that only want a good woman and don’t find her. Men who deserve this more than me. I really didn’t deserve that. But God wanted to give me this gift and I couldn’t be more thankful.

  64. feeriker says:

    “This was a Christian singles class, so all of the women there were ostensibly looking for a husband. ”

    I don’t think this is true for all the women.

    I spent years in several different Church singles groups. I met lots of women who did not want to get married or did not want to get married anytime soon. I had a blind date with a Christian woman who was too focused on being a missionary to Europe to allow me to have a second date.

    I’ll second that observation. “Singles” is a demographic “dumping” category in most American churches, a place to “quarentine” (for lack of a better term) the unmarried adults. Since American churchians are as hostile or indifferent to marriage as the world they are a part of, very few, if any singles, especially the women, have any interest in marriage. In fact, my observation has been that any young man in a singles group who makes it clear that he is seeking a Christian wife will be asked to leave, politely or not so politely. It’s a real mess.

  65. Lost Patrol says:

    I’ll second that observation. “Singles” is a demographic “dumping” category in most American churches, a place to “quarentine” (for lack of a better term) the unmarried adults.

    What is it called when you third an observation? This is what I’ve seen also. Locally, the two that were interested in marriage from that group self-selected out of it by marrying each other. Both were children of church elders. The remainder are left to their own devices, with the oldest male and female “leading” the group. To where is not clear.

  66. feministhater says:

    In fact, my observation has been that any young man in a singles group who makes it clear that he is seeking a Christian wife will be asked to leave, politely or not so politely. It’s a real mess.

    Yep, they chase away the men looking for marriage and then complain that there are no longer men looking for marriage. It’s a fucking Scooby-Doo Mystery!

    Women are walking conundrums. The want men to pursue but berate men that do. They want men to flirt but berate them when they do. They want men to provide for them but berate men for earning more than they do. They want men to protect them but berate men for being too aggressive.

    This ‘Feminine Wiles’ only works for the top tier, the rest of mankind has to rely on men pursuing women to make the rest of the population up. I’m sorry, women are never, ever going to pursue in this manner the 80% of men. They simply won’t. You want children, a functioning economy and ‘Civilisation’, then most men will have to do the pursuing. Sure, most men could up their game to the very best of their ability to try and get women to pursue them, that will simply move the curve to the right.

    Don’t worry though, the legal system is making sure that the only sex who is able to pursue the other is going to be women so in essence they’re following the example giving here as being best suited for strong married couples.

    They’re doing the Lord’s work I tell ya!

  67. feministhater says:

    What is it called when you third an observation?

    Turding?

  68. AnonS says:

    “This ‘Feminine Wiles’ only works for the top tier, the rest of mankind has to rely on men pursuing women to make the rest of the population up. I’m sorry, women are never, ever going to pursue in this manner the 80% of men. They simply won’t.”

    It worked for most of history under patriarchy.

  69. feministhater says:

    It worked for most of history under patriarchy.

    Do you really believe that all those women were marrying men they were head over heals in love with and pursued on their own violation? Really? That is what is being spoken about here. Don’t pretend otherwise. I don’t think that is true. Patriarchy has a whole myriad of foundations that better suit to create families and make them stable.

  70. Pingback: Empowered to avoid responsibility. | Dalrock

  71. ray says:

    mgtowhorseman —

    Good for you on your marriage.

    “Luckily the gods put us in the same room.”

    There aren’t any gods. No goddesses either, for that matter.

  72. Joe K says:

    Regarding the apparently bizarre trend of single women in churches ‘not wanting marriage’ (except from maybe the top ‘apex alpha’ in the group)-

    It’s no different than a Match dot com meetup, only worse since it’s recurring/weekly – these men are advertising that they’re actively seeking and looking, spending a chunk of time doing so. This is de facto unattractive to even ‘Christian’ women, who are just like non-Christian women.

    Here’s a perspective that Christian men may find useful: Women are attracted to strength and power, period. They are inherently amoral. Therefore, if you seek to be devout and strong “in the Lord” and it imbues you with real strength, confidence, and dare I say hope – that is how you’re showing up to women, whether Christian or not (doesn’t matter). But these women couldn’t care less that you are a “brother in Christ”, you are utterly invisible to them if you are not strong and powerful (unless they can use you somehow to qualify for an alpha male’s attention).

    It is just smart, shrewd behavior for a woman to seek first to be a sweet and nurturing helpmate. If she does this, it is rooted in wise self-interest and has not one iota of ‘Christian morality’ as its inspiration. This may help explain why singles groups at Christian churches are full of women who “don’t want to marry”. They DO want to marry – the best, and only the best, man – who doesn’t have the beta tendency to be spending every other Thurs/Fri/Sat night with said ‘singles group’.

  73. BillyS says:

    Boys and young men should be instructed by Christians to IMPROVE THEMSELVES in tangible ways — spiritually (principally by studying and grokking the Bible), psychologically, physically, etc. Not by adopting the personality cults and ‘secret guaranteed techniques’ of the game gurus. Make yourself more acceptable in the eyes of God, and let the girls respond to that. Practicing game is becoming what women want, or find superficially desirable. Men don’t bend themselves to women, and fit themselves to women’s expectations. They become what God intended for them to be, and let the rest of the chips fall.

    Get a clue ray and let the anti-game hostility go. Self improvement is a part of game. Seeking to be more holy won’t attract a single woman for most men. It is a good thing, but don’t confuse it with learning to pay attention to social clues, improve ones physical aspects, etc.

    It is not some magical panacea and I have no idea what they preach at CH, since I spend no time there, but your attack is useless and helps no one.

    Mgtowhorseman,

    Great it worked out for you, but you are not necessarily a good path, just a part of the statistic that seems to have made it. You clearly took someone with a higher N count (you were both tired of the night club scene as you said, which means you both participated in it) and she was already chubby back then when she should have started much thinner. It is great that you made it in spite of things, but your story sounds more like the exception that proves the rule than the rule itself.

    It also sounds a lot like Joe coming out with the “I did it right, all you shmucks should learn better” approach that so many boast of. I am not to FH’s level of cynicism, but a man today faces a whole lot more risk than most acknowledge.

    FH,

    Civilization was horrible many times in the past. It survived multiple Mongol invasions, etc. Not pleasant and we should not intentionally invite those as we do now, but it survives. I hate living through things, but not much I can do about that.

  74. ray says:

    Thank you Joe K., I will add that I never opened a Bible of my own accord until I was coming up on age 50. Even today I don’t think of myself as a ‘Christian’ because I spent so many decades (properly) ignoring Approved Christianity, which had zilch appeal to me.

    Then Father nudged me and Jeshua opened up His book, and His servants introduced me to the Old Testament. By that time in life, I DEFINITELY related to the prophets, my kinda guys. So that’s how God back-doored me and it was just astonishment after astonishment since then.

    Meaning, I had little agency in my ‘conversion’ and take no credit for it, thus nothing to be proud about. When a baby finds a bottle in front of his mouth and grasps it, it’s not exactly an accomplishment, eh?

    The only agency I operated correctly was preparing myself with diligence in the World before the tap came. And that’s one reason why I counsel boys and young men to develop themselves as men, the traditional arduous way, rather than seeking the easy solutions and ‘shortcuts’ the world always offers. Regardless of how humble the job or school course, I always gave my best effort. Chicks didn’t dig me until around age 30, so I concentrated on accomplishments in other areas. That turned out to be crucial later, because without that preparation of four-plus decades in the World, I wouldn’t have been equipped to do what the Lord asked of me, when He was ready to ask it.

    I detail these things especially for younger men like Vyasa, so they know that not everybody ‘sees the Light’ in their teens or twenties. Some do, I didn’t. So I don’t worry about you not identifying as Christian because God does things in His own time, and He does them at the moment in your life when it’s MOST BENEFICIAL TO YOU. He doesn’t do it for Himself, He does not need us.

    Thus I’d ask that you remain open to Him and be patient. Whether you think you’re a Christian isn’t as important as acting like one.

  75. Pingback: They Know How to Follow | Things that We have Heard and Known

  76. BillyS says:

    I will add that I never opened a Bible of my own accord until I was coming up on age 50.

    And you are now an expert on Biblical things? Right.

    I have a great deal on a bridge in Arizona to sell you. Great opportunity….

  77. mgtowhorseman says:

    Ray

    I am Toaist, she is Christian.
    Out of respect for both our viewpoints and those of other faiths I always use the uncapitalized “gods” when refering to the Creator in his various forms.
    I have used it out of respect for Earl and Ton’s faiths in other blogs for a long time.

    Just clarifying.

  78. mgtowhorseman says:

    Billy et al.

    Oh I know I am one of the exceptions. And as Earl and Ton can attest we have earned it through hard work including the Year from Hell when we seperated. I am fully aware that much of it comes from a 70s era mindset of family first.

  79. mgtowhorseman says:

    Over at Spawnys I have been quite vocal that marriage or even ltrs are stistically soon to be extinct because of the modern environment. I see little hope and a profound sadness that none of my friends will ever see 20 let alone 30 years nor my children ever having a stable ltr to pass down my family name.

  80. mgtowhorseman says:

    My personal thoughts on the future from another blog.

    Deti
    Good analysis of the strata Today.
    Look at it from the viewpoint of the 20 year olds today.
    One thing guys are great at is realistically sizing up where they are in the spectrum, no rose colored glasses.

    Your ” middle 60% of men are the husbands of the average to below average women, most of whom will end up divorced.”
    Yup they know it but now freed from the burden to marry and provide and father, they will see this as their future and sidestep it.

    These are the “good guys”. The middle managers, tradesmen, farmers. The steady joes. They will have moderate jobs as always but without a wife and family they will have money out the ass. Half of them will retire by 40. Because they can afford it!!
    They wont win the sex carousel but they will attract enough for occassional ons, strs.
    But they will win so much more in freedom, peace and less financial pressure.

    As for the “And bringing up the rear are the omegas – the truly unlucky, the hideous, the morbidly obese, the moderately to profoundly autistic, the mentally disabled. They get nothing.”. To be brutal they always have. But now with vr porn etc. thgey may have a outlet they never had before.

    Yes for the already trapped of our generation it sucks.
    But the brave new world ten years from now it will be great for men.

    Because as Justaguy said …as always. We adapted. We dont want it. But it works…enough.

    mgtowhorsemansaid:August 29, 2018 at 1:08 am
    Btw I am not gleeful at all this. Thats sarcasm.
    Id love to see every Bert out there have what I have.

    But its over.

    We must look forward.
    And men who adapt will carve out a better end result
    Largely because they are not dependent on the world to carve it for them.

    As often said. Be for you. If anyone wants to come for the ride, great. If not, its a great life to live when you only have to answer to yourself.
    Why do I x? Because I can and because I want to. Period.

    P.s. I am solidly in the 60% and I know it. Why if it ever went south I would never ltr again. I know its value and what it requires and its not worth it for what I could get.

    mgtowhorsemansaid:August 29, 2018 at 1:18 am
    And ten years out to adapt deti’s analysis

    “Next is the average to attractive women. They also get what they want. Fun hot sex in their 20s followed by” ok sex in their 30s followed by nothing. Working til they retire with a few strs even ltrs because they are attractive. But because the 60% men sidestep marriage, they will support themselves until they retire with their cats.

    Next is the average to below average to ugly women. They get a little of what they want – sex when alpha slums it, then” nothing. The 60% can still get the attractive ones above for strs, these average to ugly women become the new incels. Some get thirsty pump and dumps but no one even STRs them.

    See with marriage off the table it totally changes things.

    And marriage IS off the table for the kids my sons age.
    Just look at the dalrocks analysis or talk to a twenty year old.

    mgtowhorsemansaid:August 29, 2018 at 1:24 am
    Our generation was great for women and sucks for men.
    The next its going to be great for men and suck bad for women.

    Because remove all the relationship stuff, at the end of the day people still need to have food, shelter, a purpose to live for.

    Which men provide by instinct, hell for something to do. Who ever Told a man to go climb a mountain or build stuff? They just do.

    Only now all the societal controls to share that have been removed. They will always provide it for themselves. Just now everybody else…..

    Get your own!!

    You can’t or won’t?? Too bad, so sad. Not my circus not my monkey.

    It wont collapse, it will just be dfferent.

  81. PRCD says:

    My wife ambushed me as I was putting away a hymnal with, “Hi!” I’d seen her before but hadn’t talked to her. I asked her out right away and knew I was going to marry her the first time we talked. At one point, she wasn’t sure about me so she said, “LJBF.” I said I wasn’t friends with women, so she changed her mind. We’ve been married 12 years.

    Women say they want to be pursued but I’ve never seen this work for a man, including myself. The reality is they pursue men and in this case Joe probably sent some subtle clue that he was open to having her “help.”

    “There’s a lot of chest thumping about how feminism is all coastal city tramps and how there are plenty of “real women” in the countryside and the “flyover” states and in church. I suspect that’s a lot of nonsense. Things have gotten really weird inside evangelicalism socially and I mean weirder than even the pagan world in some regards.”

    Evangelicalism seems to be collapsing into the larger culture in bizarre ways. We need a reformation or it’s over.

  82. Pingback: Get It Right Next Time | Σ Frame

  83. Micha Elyi says:

    A year and a half later in October we married at the ripe age of 24. That was thirty years ago next month.
    –mgtowhorseman 8:03 pm

    Congratulations. You have been married almost as long as Kevin Norwood Bacon and Kyra Minton Sedgwick Bacon have. All is well.

  84. Pingback: Models of Courtship and Marital Structure | Σ Frame

  85. I have never hung back and waited to be asked. In that situation, I would have done exactly the same thing. Someone else might end up living your life otherwise.

Please see the comment policy linked from the top menu.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.