A picture of the weakened signal.

The primary risk of the feminist strategy to delay marriage is that once a cohort of women finally reach their late twenties/early thirties and is ready to switch from Alpha F*cks to Beta Bucks, the the cohort of Beta men they are counting on may not follow the script.  There are a number of ways this can happen.  One is that a percentage of the Betas could decide they’ve become accustomed to remaining unmarried, and decide to pass on the suddenly reformed party girls demanding that they “put a ring on it”.  But reformed party girls can be very persuasive, so they may be able to overcome this initial resistance.

However there is another way this can play out that soon-to-be-reformed party girls should take more seriously.  The Betas they are counting on to focus on education and career during their teens and twenties (in order to be able to play the Beta Bucks role in their 30s) might elect to coast instead.  If this happens, persuasion won’t help.  The unprepared men can no more go back and focus their teens and 20s on education and career than the party girls can go back and focus their youth and fertility on a husband.

The thing about the delayed marriage trick is it works really well at first.  Women can delay marriage but their male peers will tend to prepare to marry based on what they observe happening to the men 5-10 years older than them.  By the time the younger men find out that their generation of women had other plans, for the most part they will already be solidly on the provider track.  Given no other choice, waiting a few more years is what nearly all will do.  But over time each new generation of men is going to see the delayed proof of what is going on.  The signal that being a Beta provider pays off in the form of first a girlfriend, and then marriage weakens as fewer of the men 5-10 years older than them have this happen.  Eventually you will have a group of teen men who see marriage as so far off that the future reward isn’t worth working so hard to prepare for.  This won’t happen all at once, but over time more and more of the men who were less motivated to begin with will begin to coast more and more, or simply become distracted along the way.  Many will begin to work like women.

I was able to pull a comparison of marriage rates by three year cohort in 2017 and 2003 using the Census CPS data tool.  I’m showing the data for White Non Hispanic below which reduces potential shifts caused by immigration, but you can view the same data for all races as well.  Since the bars represent the percent of men who had never married by the given age, higher bars indicate less marriage:

wnh_men_2003_2017_ws

Note that the arrows point out the weakened signal for Generation Z men, because Gen Y men would have been looking at Gen X marriage trends when they were coming of age, just as Gen X men were looking at Boomer trends when they were young.

While it is obvious that women won’t be able to continue delaying marriage forever without a highly visible reaction from men, it isn’t clear how long such a response will take.  Gen Z men, and indeed the generation that follows them, might continue preparing to be Beta providers while their peers spend over a decade riding the carousel.  We shall have to wait and see.

Edit:  Generation markers based on dates listed here.  I originally calculated the generation dividing lines for 2017 using 2018 to calculate age.  I’ve updated the charts to correct the error.

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253 Responses to A picture of the weakened signal.

  1. That’s one signal.

    The other signal is the tales of divorce that adolescent and young men see and hear around them. There is as yet little hard evidence showing that a large fraction of men are losing interest in marriage as a result (the type one reaction you mention). But just because it has not yet happened, that does not mean it won’t happen.

    Change comes slowly in these core behavioral dynamics. Or, “the mills grind slowly, but they …”

  2. earl says:

    Could it be the best of both worlds for older Gen Y men? You worked hard to be a provider so you are set so to speak, yet you’ve seen enough and your decision processes are not largely influenced in large part by your sex drive that the chances of marriage to the party-carousel riders are hopefully very low.

  3. Traks says:

    Yes, I can attest that my generation (40 and below) prefer to coast much more. I did marry once at age 25, but will not fall for it again. And there are not many providers going into 30ies anymore even in Europe.

  4. Zarathustra says:

    One thing I would like you to address is the “betas” who do not spend their 20’s building their finances to woo a woman at 30. I was one of these beta’s. I have some alpha characteristics and had no problem attracting women in my 20’s although getting them to commit, for all the reasons you mention, was beyond me. I wanted so badly to get married but it didn’t happen. Being dumped again and again by the “serial monogamist” women in my 20’s left me devastated and certainly impacted my earning power. Depressed after each break up left me feeling confused and definitely hurt my work prospects. there were also times I moved for a gf and had to move again when she dumped me and I found myself in a city with no friends.

  5. Dalrock says:

    @LK

    The other signal is the tales of divorce that adolescent and young men see and hear around them. There is as yet little hard evidence showing that a large fraction of men are losing interest in marriage as a result (the type one reaction you mention). But just because it has not yet happened, that does not mean it won’t happen.

    Change comes slowly in these core behavioral dynamics. Or, “the mills grind slowly, but they …”

    When I first looked at the data I was looking for any evidence of the much anticipated “marriage strike”*. There could be an indication of this in the chart with Gen X men. Notice how Gen X men in their early 40s catch up to their counterparts from 2003. Before and after the 38 to 43 age group, men in 2017 are married less than men the same age were in 2003 (excepting the extreme tails). I really didn’t expect to see this, and still don’t fully know what to make of it. But one interpretation would be that around 5% of Gen X men simply decided not to marry, and that after the rest of the Gen X men had married as they desired, they started to stand out in the data.

    *Which was also why I originally started charting never married data years ago when I started the blog.

  6. Pingback: A picture of the weakened signal. | @the_arv

  7. feministhater says:

    It happens slowly at first and then suddenly, all at once.

  8. Anonymous Reader says:

    How many manosphere truths can be embedded into, or derived from, a graph?

    Churchgoing girls should have this explained to them: they either find a man to marry in their early 20’s when the competition isn’t looking and help him to grow a career, OR they wait until 29.999 years of age and compete like crazy with all the others. Or cats.

    It is reasonable to expect that Gen Z men will become much more choosy about female companionship, in a “what do you bring to the table beyond a vagina?” sense. That will include many of the churchgoing men in that cohort.

    Again it looks to me that going forward marriage will be a practice primarily of upper middle / upper class subcultures and religious people.a

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    The other signal is the tales of divorce that adolescent and young men see and hear around them. There is as yet little hard evidence showing that a large fraction of men are losing interest in marriage as a result (the type one reaction you mention). But just because it has not yet happened, that does not mean it won’t happen.

    As Dalrock noted it doesn’t show up in the data, not yet. But if one listens to Millennial men carefully some percentage of them are very wary of marriage. Often due to an ugly frivorce in their family; father, older brother, uncle, etc. I can’t quantify the percentage, it’s not that big, but it exists. Look for it, you will see and hear it.

    Caveat: 20-something men can be quite reluctant to say serious truths around any Boomers, whom they often consider to be senile or otherwise brain damaged.

  10. thedeti says:

    This is already having the effect of crashing birth rates, and that will continue as well. When women are getting married on average at creeping up on 28, and then starting to think about having kids at 31, she can get at most 2 kids out. That’s replacement, not growth. It’s also best case scenario. That will continue and worsen as time wears on.

    There’s more to it than just maternal age. There’s lifestyle choice, male/father choice, female/mother choice to work or not, maternal/paternal condition and health, and economic constraints as well. The point is a lot of college educated women don’t want kids until they’re married, and they don’t want to be married until later, and they are getting to the point of limited fertility.

    They’re also considering they don’t want to be chasing babies and changing diapers at 44 or putting a kid through college until they’re 65. They’re essentially having fun, then raising and supporting one or two kids until retirement. And a lot of people are rethinking that.

  11. Robert What? says:

    There are many thirsty Beta men who will latch onto and marry a thirty something ex carousel rider because she might have given him the first blow job he’s had in years… maybe ever. Little do they know that after marriage the blow jobs will quickly disappear. The memories of those few blow jobs will have to carry them through. At least until the divorce rape.

  12. Minesweeper says:

    im seeing a few things, <30yo men either think women are now mindless f8cktoys that they just use for tinder dates or they find they arnt able to form long term relationships without being a catastrophic mess.

    also 40 seems to be the cut off date for women now, they want to be married by then and men will be there, maybe just not the selection they were wanting.

    again, im continually surprised that women in their 20's seem to be looking nowadays for much older men, maybe they are discounting their gen of men already, maybe they are starting to realise that a thousand tinder dates will screw her up for life.

  13. Jason says:

    I remember back when I was a teenager. I knew a lot of married couples. Not a single husband out of the bunch was happy with their choice. The wives were always bitter and angry. Who needs that?

  14. Minesweeper says:

    @D,”Before and after the 38 to 43 age group, men in 2017 are married less than men the same age were in 2003 (excepting the extreme tails). I really didn’t expect to see this, and still don’t fully know what to make of it. But one interpretation would be that around 5% of Gen X men simply decided not to marry, and that after the rest of the Gen X men had married as they desired, they started to stand out in the data.”

    its because beforehand marriage after 40 could have been a good prospect, particularly with a younger woman, but single men now after 40 know the game and have watched their friends get ruined, they have no desire to lose what they have worked for. fear of losing it all is what motivates them now, and seeing the number of mid-40’s+ single women who are “anxious” for men remaining baffled as to why there are no takers nowsdays. they have lost that visual and hormonal pull that cause men to act against their best interests. most of these women cant even get dates – (they are the new omegas), let alone LTR’s.

    its kinda sad to see.

  15. earl says:

    but single men now after 40 know the game and have watched their friends get ruined

    At this point in time you could probably lower that age to at least mid-30s if not early 30s.

    That said…I’ve seen how good marriages certainly make a man better, but those are the rarities…because the ones where the man has been cut in half are much more common.

    seeing the number of mid-40’s+ single women who are “anxious” for men remaining baffled as to why there are no takers nowsdays.

    They don’t think like men because they have no real fear of building up something only to watch it getting cut in half unjustly…although it might be the first time in their life they realize their few assets are gone.

  16. Minesweeper says:

    @earl, like you say – well for 99% of women, marriage is a guarantee, they will not lose. for 99% of men its the other way.i dont know of a single woman who lost anything in a divorce.

  17. OKRickety says:

    “i dont know of a single woman who lost anything in a divorce.”

    They lost but they don’t know it or won’t admit it. It seems I have read that women initially gain materially from a divorce, but in the long run they end up worse off. For men, it is the other way.

  18. vfm7916 says:

    @earl

    “They don’t think like men because they have no real fear of building up something only to watch it getting cut in half unjustly”

    They don’t think like men because they can’t, it’s biological. They also can’t admit to themselves that their assets are gone as that would invalidate their very selves. They’ll rationalize it away as men’s fault.

    @thedeti

    You can do 4-5. You just have to be dedicated. That will be dependent on the woman’s desire to be a mom, homemaker, and educator. I have personal experience in this department.

    @Dalrock

    I wondered about your graph in regard to marriages if common redpill anger phase interpretations of never get married were ultimately valid. Noting that in the past there was a substantial cohort of men that never got married I’d wonder if the core that do get married and stay married has remained mostly stable over time. I’d wonder if the fraction of men that are getting divorced in the recent past are those that would naturally fall into the never married group in the past, and while there’s been some variation in delay in marriage, I’d also note that late marriage is also tradition in Hajnal line nationalities, moreso than non-hajnal line nationalities.

  19. earl says:

    It seems I have read that women initially gain materially from a divorce, but in the long run they end up worse off. For men, it is the other way.

    I’d agree with that…if you take the majority reason why women divorce (not happy, bored, don’t want to be married anymore)…they are essentially saying they don’t want the man who gave his commitment, love, and provision to her and she’d rather be freed ‘from the oppression’. She’ll still want the money, house, etc….but she won’t have the man anymore. Turns out that ‘oppression’ really was a good thing for her once she sees what reality as a divorced woman is like (Meghan Markels are the exceptions, not the rule).

  20. OKRickety says:

    Dalrock,

    “Before and after the 38 to 43 age group, men in 2017 are married less than men the same age were in 2003 (excepting the extreme tails). I really didn’t expect to see this, and still don’t fully know what to make of it.”

    It is interesting. I wonder if this is the result of an intersection with some factor or factors. Perhaps a graph of the same for women might provide some insight. Comparison by age cohort might need to take into account the average age difference of men and women at time of marriage. Did the average age difference change during the last 50 years?

  21. earl says:

    Some divorce tales from the blogs and at least one I know in real life…the woman went from a nice home to becoming either homeless or damn near. That’s even with spousal support. Money often doesn’t keep a divorced woman afloat.

  22. ray says:

    Such attrition would probably require a decade, mebbe two, to affect the behavior of a substantial percentage of U.S. women. You do not have a couple decades; your nation already teeters on civil war. Much of that is driven by the horrors of feminism. Which, obviously, neither Almighty Woman nor their millions of paid poodles and DODOs have any intention of restricting, much less relinquishing. Be assured that women would FAR prefer to see the entire nation obliterated, or given over to ‘a cruel people’, rather than dial-back their gyno-gulag. Even one notch. How many concessions have Almighty Women made concerning their feminist brickbat over the past forty years? Well that’s about how much you can expect her to compromise in the future. Nada.

    The married men I’ve met and observed over the past few decades. . . and the ones who spend their teens and twenties drooling over females they cannot possibly get, are just WAITING for their one chance at Ms. Hottie, no matter that she is now 34 or 42. These guys do not care about their powerlessness in marriage, or any other factor. They want their moment in the Sexual Sun and they will empty their bank accounts and do whatever is required to finally, finally, FINALLY snag that hottie that’s been prancing before them for twenty years. Like they preen when they buy a new truck. Displaying and ‘owning’ that cheerleader, albeit fifteen years past her prime, is all they’ll care about.

    The thirstiness and neediness of the average American man will trump rational decision-making pretty much every time. And by the time they marry and figure out who the boss is, and always was, it’s too late.

  23. ZMAN says:

    Dude,

    As a 25 year old right now….there is no reason to marry any of these women. Have you seen the modern woman? Fat as hell, tatted up, brainwashed to believe in feminism and all kinds of degenerate nonsense. Student Loan debt out the ass while going for their degrees in whatever so they can live their feminist dream. Tinder girls, bumble, etc. Social skills have flown out the window as everyone just types away on their phones. Hook ups and other stupidity is the norm here.

    Now I see so many women in my age group adopting dogs and treating them as children! No doubt these women are mentally unstable.

    Plenty of ass out there willing and wanting to get pounded. I see many holding out for virgins here…..LOL Good Luck with that. I know several women who have bastard children from multiple men looking for a good man at the local church!

    From my observation most of the guys that I know engaging with women are doing it just to have sex….these are your typical penis brain types that are out there raw dogging multiple women without any care in the world. There are other guys I know who are totally disregarding women in totality and just focusing on careers and living life….pretty much going MGTOW.

    My generation is a total fucking nightmare. If one of these guys gets married it is his own funeral.

  24. stickdude90 says:

    Some divorce tales from the blogs and at least one I know in real life…the woman went from a nice home to becoming either homeless or damn near. That’s even with spousal support. Money often doesn’t keep a divorced woman afloat.

    Sure it does. Haven’t you ever seen “Eat, Pray, Love” or other “divorcee lives happily ever after” divorce porn?

  25. stickdude90 says:

    Fat as hell, tatted up, brainwashed to believe in feminism and all kinds of degenerate nonsense. Student Loan debt out the ass while going for their degrees in whatever so they can live their feminist dream.

    Silly boy. That’s the kind of Daughter Of The King™ you would be pursuing if you really loved God, or something. Sheila Gregoire and her harpy daughters even said so!

  26. thedeti says:

    @vfm:

    You can do 4-5. You just have to be dedicated. That will be dependent on the woman’s desire to be a mom, homemaker, and educator. I have personal experience in this department.

    You can have 4 to 5 kids and a SAHM. It’s not the money, it’s the delay and inclination. A woman who starts trying to get pregnant at 30 is going to have a tough time of it. She won’t be able to have 4 or 5 kids, even assuming she wants to (and most don’t). She’ll do great to have two, and superbly outstanding to birth 3. Any woman who wants 4 or more kids needs to get started no later than age 25, really. You have to account for recovery time and miscarriages. Realistically it takes a woman at least 2 years to produce one kid, wean that kid off the breast, and then recover to be healthy enough to bear another. That’s 10 years to produce 5 kids; and realistically that stretches to more like 15 or 20 years. So a woman who starts at 30 and who wants 4 or more kids, accounting for miscarriages and other time, is realistically looking at attempting to bear kids until age 45. Given her age, she’ll be extremely fortunate to carry 3 live births to term.

  27. thedeti says:

    And, most women want only one or two kids. Three is pushing it for a lot of women; and 4 or more is out of the question for most. They just don’t want to have that many kids. They don’t want the lifestyle changes it requires. They don’t want to quit working. They don’t want to give up their 2 weeks every year on Maui. Or whatever.

  28. bigjohn33 says:

    I seriously doubt men are making decisions about when to marry based on observation of their predecessors. A far more likely explanation for men’s decreasing enthusiasm for marriage is the prevalence of female obesity. Men in general are not excited about dating or marrying overweight or obese women. They are probably even more sensitive to this than women’s age.

    Any discussion of men delaying marriage without mentioning the decreasing physical attractiveness of women due to obesity is incomplete.

  29. feeriker says:

    “i dont know of a single woman who lost anything in a divorce.”

    They lost but they don’t know it or won’t admit it. It seems I have read that women initially gain materially from a divorce, but in the long run they end up worse off. For men, it is the other way.

    Yup. My ex has been on her own for nearly three years now and even though she’s getting substantial alimony from me (six more years of that nonsense left), she’s in such dire financial straits that she might have to move back in with my daughter and grandson. She’s had nothing but the shittiest of times with both jobs and money management (I think employers see her natural laziness just as clearly as I did) and can’t seem to get anything off the ground. On her current track she’s going to be in a universe of hurt when the alimony stops. At 65 she won’t be able to easily start over, if at all.

    But she didn’t need or want me as husband anymore, so I’m glad she’s enjoying her “freedom” lifestyle.

  30. vfm7916 says:

    @thedeti

    Wife and I started kids at 28 for her. We have 4 in the last 8 years. As I said, and you noted, it takes dedication.

    You would also be surprised at trends in childbearing with younger women, especially those who are marrying and staying married. I should also note that the modifiers of “white non-hispanic”, “american citizen”, and “Voted for Trump” should be added to the marriage filter to see the upcoming trends in childbirth.

    Then again that’s just conjecture based on subjective experience.

  31. JRob says:

    @feeriker
    Long game vs. Short game. Hypergamy-fueled childish decisions usually don’t Meghan Markle in the Long Game.

    My ex rolled around in the floor and begged our last son not to move in with me as primary custodian. CS will be done after a brief court battle, a triennial tradition.

    I am the poster child for reformed blue pillers. Fool me once…

    OT but not really…some states have passed laws where a teacher’s 401k and retirement cannot be touched as proceeds in a divorce. Wonder who thought of that?

  32. JRob says:

    @vfm

    I’ve had the opposite experience. The rare woman who has a large brood is denigrated by the other women in the church, as they sidle right up to the babymomma with open arms and pockets.
    “He just thinks she’s a brood mare.”
    “How can they afford another one?”
    “Who has seven kids these days?”
    “Does she have any time for herself?”
    “Why doesn’t she get her rubes tied?”
    Ad nauseum.

  33. JRob says:

    -tubes-

    Rubes might work in certain company.

  34. earl says:

    @JRob

    Sounds more like they hate a patriarch and his helpmate having children more than how many kids are being born. Like you said they love the single mothers and don’t care how many children without a father she has.

  35. JRob says:

    Yessir earl, hammer on nail there. They blame the man for “ruining her life” without actually saying it. Hamsterese 101

  36. vfm7916 says:

    Would that church be converged with SJW’s, Churchians, and Complementarians?

  37. Pingback: A picture of the weakened signal. | Reaction Times

  38. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    ray:The married men I’ve met and observed over the past few decades. . . and the ones who spend their teens and twenties drooling over females they cannot possibly get, are just WAITING for their one chance at Ms. Hottie, no matter that she is now 34 or 42.

    This true story all occurred in Los Angeles in the 1990s:

    When I was 30 years old, I was acquainted with an actress. She was beautiful. I assumed she was in her 20s. She was talented. When she performed a drably written part on stage, she infused the role with depth of character, and made the audience cry. I was certain that she would “make it” in Hollywood.

    I talked to her at a party. Being Beta, I signaled my provider status, but was unable to interest her. After a few months of (barely) knowing her, we lost touch.

    Six years later, I ran into her again. I was able to interest her, and began dating her.

    I learned that she was older than I had thought. She was 41, five years older than me. Six years had passed, yet she looked 15 years older. Handsome for her age, still slender, but no longer the youthful actress of six years ago. She said she was “a former addict,” yet she still smoked pot. (That “didn’t count.”) I deduced that her N count was very high. I learned she had a lot of rage in her, always complaining about the “awful men” in L.A., and picking fights with everyone for minor reasons. She was needy, always calling me for assistance. Left-wing, pro-LGBT, pro-choice. Yet she claimed to be a Christian.

    I ghosted on her, not returning her calls.

    So I had the chance that Ray describes. I had a second shot with a woman who I longed for when she was younger (35, though she looked 25). But I never married her because, what a mess.

  39. earl says:

    In this day and age Bill Burr will have endless material.

  40. earl says:

    Part 2 is even better.

  41. Minesweeper says:

    @ZMAN , great write up man, I agree your gen is so f*kd its almost unbelievable. Ive seen on social media women who I know have had abortions state “someone get me a nice christian man” !

    i mean, its like sanity has been outlawed with the <30's. even the 2nd wave fems and gays seem to be generally horrified to how your gen is turing out, and they kicked it all off ! and they are being no platformed now 😀 you couldnt make it up.

    you must wonder, what will be the gen behind you look like. I mean, just how bad can this be. Will the <30's SJW be horrified where this new gen ends up ?

  42. RICanuck says:

    @JRob

    About 25 years ago, I was herding my 6 kids through a store (my wife needed a break), when a middle aged yuppie woman said in a loud voice, “Haven’t you heard of birth control?”
    I responded, “I’ve had more fun not using birth control than you will ever have not using mouth control.”
    A 70 something blue collar woman nearby said, “Good for you!”

  43. Spike says:

    Excellent analysis as usual, Dalrock.
    One thing that may have skewed the data is exogamy.
    In Australia, a feminist hell, the marriage rate remained stable for a decade. ”No problem, move along”, said demographers.
    Then someone started crunching the numbers and looking into it. What they found was that exogamy – marriage outside one’s ethnic group – accounted for the majority (56%) of marriages. The most common exogamous marriage was European / Anglo Saxon man and Asian woman. This buffered the marriage, and divorce rate crash for quite some time.
    Now, as Asian women from cheaper, trashier geographies and more more mercenary tendencies show up, and the Western-born Asian women are found to not differ significantly from their over-priced white sisters, the dire marriage rate is once again exposed.
    There is no safety in exogamy.

  44. Futureman says:

    I’m 33 and you have to be blind to not notice the risk in marrying a millennial chick. Observing the decline in women and society in general led me to the red pill blogs, youtube, etc. I’ve swallowed the red pill and it had a very bitter taste. Better to know the truth now than learn the hard way. I’m kicking ass financially and physically by the way. It’s going to be a miracle if I find a chick that can bring something to the table other than her baggage. Oh well. It is what it is.

  45. Gaza says:

    Add in open hypergamy and the associated downsides of techogy fueled party years.

    While “party years” may be a bit hyperbolic, the fact is even serial monogamy stretched out over two decades of “dating” quickly becomes a very crowded party in the eyes of many men looking on her long and storied dating resume.

    While the feminized cultutal overloards have eliminated slut shaming – and convinced most men that they are the problem if/when exercising their preference for fertile, feminine, low N women, many men still have enough of a visceral reaction to instruct their choices. It may not be overt but it is there.

    And when working on the precarious margins of a late marriage intersect already, it doesn’t take much for a man to just “eh”, “lets just date”.

    With hypergamy jammed in their faces during the party years and the hyper-exhibitionist culture around dating (facebook status, instagram, millions of posted pictures everywhere) the lane change is well illumintated for the beta-in-wait to see.

    As a result, women are finding it a bit more difficult to flip the switch. Obfuscating, omitting, and outright lies are more difficult to pass off.

    Plus there are the emotional and behavioral issues as a result of years of practicing for hypergamous hookups and branch swinging from hawt sex to hawtter sex, the broken heartedness of failed alpha taming, and anxiousness of zero relational equity from decades of all of that.

    The women just can’t fake it, the grooves have been cut into the vinyl; they are still playing the fave song from when they were 20. But now they are 32 and it just seems “off”.

    I dont know a lot of young guys but the ones I do – as “beta” as they are seem to be, are well aware that most women are turning themselves into sexdolls. And in the eyes of those guys: once a sex doll always a sex doll. Marriage becomes a tough sell in a hurry.

  46. Conservative men have a dishonest way of framing this process. Why do they assume that the only possible explanation for men avoiding marriage is laziness and irresponsibility? Avoiding marriage could be a rational response to the behavior of women but they assume that women are innocently seeking providers in their 30s…when they’re financially independent and their fertility is in decline.

    Conservatives are what I call halfway house feminists. They believe that men have clearly defined and enforceable duties but they don’t think women have duties. They leave the role of women up to the individual woman, but expect men to carry on as they always have.

  47. Anon says:

    I am surprised that no one brought up the most infamous example of this type of cartoonish cuckservativsm, the video from Jim Gay-ratty :

    This faggot married a single mother, yet virtue signals about how much of a stud he is. Few cuckservatives have gone to such extreme lengths to exemplify Dunning-Kruger levels of cluelessness as Jim Gay-ratty.

    BTW, Real Peterman, having solved all his other problems in life, thinks it is wrong to make fun of Jim Gay-ratty’s name. That is superb proof that it is the right approach.

  48. rugby11 says:

    Enhancing something of faith

  49. Anon says:

    Conservative men have a dishonest way of framing this process. Why do they assume that the only possible explanation for men avoiding marriage is laziness and irresponsibility?

    Cuckservative men deserve nothing short of poverty, imprisonment (under the Bradley Amendment) , and a ‘Crying Game’ moment with a tranny. Eradication of cuckservatives would improve civilization on every level.

  50. NotaBene says:

    @Gaza

    “The women just can’t fake it, the grooves have been cut into the vinyl; they are still playing the fave song from when they were 20. But now they are 32 and it just seems ‘off’.”

  51. ray says:

    Gaza — “I dont know a lot of young guys but the ones I do – as “beta” as they are seem to be, are well aware that most women are turning themselves into sexdolls. And in the eyes of those guys: once a sex doll always a sex doll. Marriage becomes a tough sell in a hurry.”

    I think this assessment by yourself and dalrock is valid, as suggested by the male attrition gap, or ‘weakened signal’ (nice). The deeper male generations pass through inevitable spiritual degradation, reversion, and Total Feminism, the less the grip on boys and men the Romance Spell will hold, individually and collectively. Of course feminism has zero chance of being sustained long term, no matter that most of the world’s powers, authorities, practice or tolerate this. Many males will remain Thirsties, but many will wise up.

    And the genesis and sustenance of the Roman/tic Cult certainly was, and is, a spell of Lucifer’s. He’s got lots of allies on Earth and they’re expert at creating and nurturing an anti-religion that offers men meaning, place, honor, the Fair Maid’s uh hand, and potential worldly glory. Pretty easy sell there. Adam didn’t have much chance, really.

    So unique characters and merits that Father implanted in men, and to which men are strongly predisposed, are twisted into a subjugated tableaux of courtly ‘love’, which of course is ninety eight percent human vanity and predation by various elements, not all of which are feminine. Father’s attributes are transferred to the domains of satan, and his ministers, and the worship of Father becomes de facto worship of the female and feminine, patiently and incrementally. Never spook the fish you plan for dinner. In the Bible there it says Jezebel had beaucoup eunuchs, so there you go.

  52. JRob says:

    Never spook the fish you plan for dinner. In the Bible there it says Jezebel had beaucoup eunuchs, so there you go.

    Extrapolate this to the behavior of the modern babymomma. Left to their own devices, they raise their sons to be beta slave/obese/gays. The very opposite of what males they pursue for coitus.

    Unless they’re a chomo teacher in some cases.

  53. feministhater says:

    A few more tinder traps and we’re well on the way to a lovely increase in MGTOW. Bring it on ladies! We need moar tinder traps! Moar! Give me moar!

  54. JRob says:

    …as opposed to.the Tender Trap…
    https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0048705/

  55. Trust says:

    I remember something a pastor said in church years back. He said, for many people, the devil will tell them the truth — that the Bible is true, that they should follow Jesus, etc. — but that they should do it… later.

    Marriage hasn’t been destroyed in the name of destroying it. It has been destroyed in the name of enhancing or saving it. A good example is the advice (that I myself was given) to have a few years of fun and marry when you are older and more mature. This creates a lot of people who intended to marry but missed their shot (just like there are a lot of people who die planning to get right with God later), a lot of people who may end up marrying but were damaged by their years of fun, and also a lot of men who decide that getting no strings attached sex is more pleasurable than a celibate marriage with likely financial ruin thrown in for good measure.

    “Later” is one of the biggest lies the devil can tell.

  56. Paul says:

    … the behavior of the modern babymomma ..

    It’s both entertaining and heartbreaking to see the result of this, google

    “Most Shocking DNA Results Ever | The Jeremy Kyle Show”
    “BEST OF MAURY- YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER”
    There’s a whole bunch of these episodes.

    This shows modern women in action

  57. Paul says:

    … of course the “lie detector” tests are bogus

    http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx

  58. mgtowhorseman says:

    Notice in the 2017 data the men 41 to 61 have a virtually flat never married rate. The earlier dsta shows a steady fall off.

    This could indicate a window closure where men who hit a certain age, mid 40s, either outgrow entirelky the need for marriage i.e. their parenting years, or are so comfortable\resigned to bachelorhood that they permanently self select out.

    As this is never married vs not married it controls for the burned by divorce effect. This is strictly life long bachelors.

  59. mgtowhorseman says:

    That shows another strong signal in the data. The delta between the data sets at those points is proportionally as strong as in the ones with arrows.

  60. earl says:

    Why do they assume that the only possible explanation for men avoiding marriage is laziness and irresponsibility?

    They hate men.

    It never crosses their mind that perhaps women are lazy and irreponsible…and any prudent thinking man sees they are not marriage material.

  61. Doc H. says:

    @earl. This is my life, “It’s not that she says that I am a jerk, it’s that she has the nerve to be surprised.”

  62. Kevin says:

    @Deti
    Birthrates in US will be far below replacement if the average woman goes to 2, because right now the average woman has 0 or 2-4 children to result in our birthrates. And when they survey women asking how many children they want to have, even now most woman are not having as many children as they wanted to have.

    The bottom of this article argues that already many women who want to have children don’t get to. Choices have consequences.

    https://freebeacon.com/issues/americans-fewer-kids-now-past-42-years/

  63. Bee says:

    thedeti,

    “… she can get at most 2 kids out. That’s replacement, not growth.”

    Three is replacement. Here is why:

    Regarding the replacement rate of 2.1. For our generation in North America the real number is much closer to 3.0. That means married couples need to round up to 3 children just to replace themselves; in order to grow the church they need to have 4 or more children.

    The replacement rate is both a variable and an estimate. It varies from nation to nation, from culture to culture, from generation to generation. It is an estimate based on how many adults will not have any children in our generation. With the increase in modern adults choosing to not get married, and to marry but not have any children the current number is close to 3.0.

  64. theShield220 says:

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Churchgoing girls should have this explained to them: they either find a man to marry in their early 20’s when the competition isn’t looking and help him to grow a career, OR they wait until 29.999 years of age and compete like crazy with all the others. Or cats.”

    That is EXACTLY what I plan on explaining to my daughters. They’re young right now, so mostly we just have to encourage their natural proclivities, like playing with baby dolls – there is probably nothing that makes me smile more readily than seeing a one-year old girl “feed” and “burp” her baby doll.
    But there are opportunities even at their young age, like when they ask whether or not they can have their own baby, we tell them “You certainly will, but you have to get married first.”
    Later on, we plan on a two-pronged approach: 1. When, at 16-18, they show interest in a young man of good character at the Church, encourage that desire to pair-bond and, if all goes well, facilitate the marriage once they can sign a legal contract; and 2. Make it very clear we are not paying for college.
    I remember my parents reminding me that “you need to get your college done first”…such is the spirit of the age that has caused this mess.

  65. OKRickety says:

    FSG (@FSpeedGaming) said: “Conservative men have a dishonest way of framing this process. Why do they assume that the only possible explanation for men avoiding marriage is laziness and irresponsibility?”

    I don’t think they’re being dishonest but are instead displaying their ignorance of today’s reality. They don’t realize they are stuck in a frame so old it has lead paint.

    Harking back to my psychology class in college, I suppose their belief is based on intermittent reinforcement (If I recall correctly, that is the most effective version). That is, they see enough instances of actual laziness and irresponsibility to reinforce their belief that this must the problem. Rather than considering the possibility that other factors are more significant, they stick with (or even double down on) their current view.

  66. patriarchal landmine says:

    I really don’t know any happily married men.

  67. Kevin says:

    @Trust
    Your pastor could have been pulling that straight from the Screwtape letters where the response from a devil to someone facing enlightenment and self-discovery is not to debate them, but to suggest – “You are hungry, go get a sandwich.” Distraction is sometimes more destructive than confrontation.

    Looking at the problem of women and men abandoning marriage and it looks as if Satan is getting men and women to give up on children through distraction. Girls in my church all want to be mothers and wives, but after they make some steps in their career and only part time motherhood. I think they are distracted by power/praise of the world which makes sense since women are usually seduced by this which manifests as rebellion. The boys are getting distracted by entertainment, video games, playing around. They are distracted by selfishness. Again, makes sense as this is the most common weakness of men. Both are overcome by submission for women and love for wife and family for man. But thats not the choice, distraction is the choice for most women. They will get to all that stuff some day and they think God will make it all work out despite no effort on their part. But sadly, He will not and they will be left with selfish men who didn’t think about marriage and those men will be left with women committed more to the world than family and husband.

  68. ingracious says:

    @Larry Kummer

    “The other signal is the tales of divorce that adolescent and young men see and hear around them. … But just because it has not yet happened, that does not mean it won’t happen.”

    @feministhater

    “It happens slowly at first and then suddenly, all at once.”

    I think both of these sentiments have the right of it.

    Talking about a weakened signal is to focus on “the carrot”; about how all of these beta males/mules are looking in front of themselves and seeing nothing but air, and when they look at the more senior betas around them they observe that they don’t have any carrots in front of them either.

    One can easily observe that the rewards surrounding marriage – the incentives, the carrots – are all but completely gone, sure, but what about “the stick” when it comes to marriage? What has become of that? Is it still just a stick, or is it now a blade which is being used to butcher and harvest any beta (or alpha) who foolishly sticks his neck out for it?

    This all comes back to the government-defined marriage contract:

    Marriage is now little more than an iron maiden which men are expected to step inside and then sit and wait for their wife to shut the door on them. That is what it is /fundamentally defined as being/ for every man who marries going forward, and each year the government only sells women sharper and deadlier spikes to put inside to use at their leisure.

    That reality is currently ignorable/imperceivable for most men, but it cannot remain so.

    As more blood drains out and onto the childhoods of greater numbers of young men – with those young men being able to observe which unfair terms and legalities were used against their own fathers and their friends’ fathers to screw them, and also which further unfair terms have only been added along the way – the knowledge of the inherent worthlessness of modern marriage will only spread.

    ‘Casual sex, LTRs, VR porn – whatever you do, bro, just don’t get married. Seriously,’
    That’s what men will learn, and that’s what they will teach each other (as they are already); because such a view is based in truth, and is an honest and rational observation of reality as it stands.

    Thus, what marriage is, and what it is becoming, will cross the line for more and more men as time goes on. That is a certainty, but depending on how things shake out there could indeed be a large and sudden collapse in the number of beta men willing to waltz themselves into the Beta-Schlacthof of marriage as the word gets out on what’s in store for them. (The carrot is you!)

    What with the growing cultural perception that married men are henpecked chumps (because they are), the reality of the weathered and used-up old hags they’re left to marry decades later at age 40 and then struggle to have down-syndrome kids with, the looming spectre of divorce which hangs over their lives and those of their married friends – “total fucking nightmare”, indeed.

  69. Dalrock says:

    bigjohn33

    I seriously doubt men are making decisions about when to marry based on observation of their predecessors. A far more likely explanation for men’s decreasing enthusiasm for marriage is the prevalence of female obesity. Men in general are not excited about dating or marrying overweight or obese women. They are probably even more sensitive to this than women’s age.

    Any discussion of men delaying marriage without mentioning the decreasing physical attractiveness of women due to obesity is incomplete.

    Men as a group aren’t the ones driving the delay in marriage. Moreover, women don’t get skinnier as they age.

  70. squid_hunt says:

    @Anonymous Reader @theshield220

    Churchgoing girls should have this explained to them: they either find a man to marry in their early 20’s when the competition isn’t looking and help him to grow a career, OR they wait until 29.999 years of age and compete like crazy with all the others. Or cats.

    While I understand the sentiment, I have no intention of enlisting my daughters in the war of the sexes. It’s not my job or goal to grow society. It’s my goal to perpetuate my own genes and I do that by teaching my daughters to be good wives and to value marriage without the cynicism of beating out the others. I don’t want my daughters looking at other women as competition. That attittude doesn’t stop just because they get married and will lead to problems in a church and a home if women treat each other like that.

    It also helps if you teach them to understand fundamenally what a good man looks like, which requires you modelling that behavior (including love/kindness) and the assistance of your wife to back you up. If the wife (cousin, aunt, family friend) is constantly drooling over bad boys with no clothes on on the tv, you’re not going to have much luck teaching your daughter that they want a godly man.

  71. Dalrock says:

    @mgtowhorseman

    Notice in the 2017 data the men 41 to 61 have a virtually flat never married rate. The earlier dsta shows a steady fall off.

    This could indicate a window closure where men who hit a certain age, mid 40s, either outgrow entirelky the need for marriage i.e. their parenting years, or are so comfortable\resigned to bachelorhood that they permanently self select out.

    As this is never married vs not married it controls for the burned by divorce effect. This is strictly life long bachelors.

    Another way to look at it is these men had decided some time sooner not to marry. To a degree women can work around this problem in younger age groups by substituting other men (digging deeper). But at some point women have dug as deep as they can bear (which from the stats is clearly quite deep!) and peeled off whatever “strikers” they can peel off. This would fit both with the narrowing gap from previous years up to age 40, and then the plateau after that age.

    I’m not convinced that this is what we are seeing, but I strongly suspect that if there were a strike this is what it would look like.

  72. Jeff Strand says:

    @patriarchal landmine: “I really don’t know any happily married men.”

    Some of us are out here. Most important is to make sure to only marry a NAWALT. Never, under any circumstances, wife up a feminist.

    When you see marriage and family work the way it was designed to, the way God intended it, (which is the opposite of what our sick culture promotes)…it’s pretty cool. I have no complaints.

  73. Jeff Strand says:

    @theshield220: “When, at 16-18, they show interest in a young man of good character at the Church, encourage that desire to pair-bond and, if all goes well, facilitate the marriage once they can sign a legal contract; ”

    I’ve thought of doing likewise with my daughters. But here’s the problem – you’re pairing them with a young man of the same age. An 18 year old male has no way to support a wife (much less a family). Nor do most young men at that age have the appropriate maturity to be a head of household. Most are still kids at that age.

    To marry an 18 to 20 year old girl off properly, you need to pair her with a husband who’s about 5 to 8 years older. That’s about the age difference between me and my wife, and it’s worked out very well.

    For these reasons, I’d be cautious about pushing my daughter to wed a boy in her high school class. Instead, I would encourage her to graduate high school, learn some kind of skill by taking a couple years of vocational school, and find her husband in the workplace. Like, become a dental hygienist and marry a dentist. Or become a legal secretary and marry the boss. Or become an X-Ray technician and marry a doctor or PA. Or become a flight attendant and marry a pilot. You get the idea.

    She can finish 2 years of post-high school vocational school, and be out in the workplace looking for a successful potential husband, while still at the young age of 20 to 21. And then focus on successful guys in their mid to late 20’s, who are reaching a level of financial success and emotional maturity that leads them to start considering marriage. This path makes a lot of sense to me.

    Anyway, my 2 cents. Whatever path you choose, good luck to you.

  74. Bee says:

    @patriarchal landmine: “I really don’t know any happily married men.”

    You can count me as a happily married man.

    My wife believed that she should be submissive to her husband. My wife believed that she should speak and act respectfully towards her husband. She made conscious efforts in both of these areas.

  75. Hank-T says:

    There’s a flaw in the logic. 1. Feminists do not corner the marriage market. So some women delay, others do not. 2. Women won’t date men with intentions of marrying who aren’t ready. They are getting the best they can get. 3. Men working is also relying in the job market. Previously 8 years under Obama decimated the job market. Things improve. More men have jobs today. They could marry if they wish, but depends on the quality of the women they meet and date.
    Just saying, it’s more than just the feminists deciding on marriage strategy.

  76. Gage says:

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Churchgoing girls should have this explained to them: they either find a man to marry in their early 20’s when the competition isn’t looking and help him to grow a career, OR they wait until 29.999 years of age and compete like crazy with all the others. Or cats.”

    While marrying young is ideal for a woman who wants to have a family with more than 1.5 kids, people, especially “christian conservatives” are almost universally opposed to the idea of a woman getting married young. Anytime i mention that i want my daughters to prioritize being a godlly wife and mother over wasting their time on a college education, i am condemned quickly and mercilessly because after all, they need an education because one never knows what will happen in life. Essentially, a college degree is divorce insurance. They apparently dont know that most divorces are initiated by women and if the woman is happy in her role as wife and mother, the likelihood of a split is very very small.

    It saddens me how parents discourage their kids from getting married till they are older. I know a number of good christian families with kids in great relationships that will ultimately (more than likely) end up in marriage. instead of encouraging marriage, these parents are actively discouraging it and telling their kids to put it off for a few years till they either get out of college or get more life experience. What is the point in delaying if you know it will happen eventually? all it does is introduce more potential problems and the likelihood that a good pairing will be ruined by procrastination.

    @Patriarchal Landmine

    “I really don’t know any happily married men.”

    Either you have a very small social circle or your definition of “happily married” is very difficult to attain. I can only reflect on my social circle, but i know very few unhappily married men. They all get frustrated with their wives at times, but they are all happily married. Then again i could be an anomaly because of where I live, in a small southern town where most people are still fairly traditional.

  77. Hank Flanders says:

    ZMAN

    As a 25 year old right now….there is no reason to marry any of these women. Have you seen the modern woman? Fat as hell, tatted up, brainwashed to believe in feminism and all kinds of degenerate nonsense. Student Loan debt out the ass while going for their degrees in whatever so they can live their feminist dream. Tinder girls, bumble, etc. Social skills have flown out the window as everyone just types away on their phones. Hook ups and other stupidity is the norm here.

    Now I see so many women in my age group adopting dogs and treating them as children! No doubt these women are mentally unstable.

    This is the crux of the matter. I just recently came across a woman on a dating site who happens to be a friend of a friend, and I thought she might make a good potential match, because she’s a Christian who’s not fat, doesn’t appear to have any tattoos, and has a better chance of being more traditional from having been homeschooled. HOWEVER, after visiting her dating profile, I’ve since learned that has the eating disorder known as veganism, so that alone’s a no-go for me.

    She also has dogs, which to me, is kind of a yellow flag even though I love animals and have pets myself. I just don’t want to put up with my wife fostering multiple pets in my house like my cousin does or spending money on vet bills for stray after stray like my brother does, due to his animal-personifying wife. Even those extreme examples notwithstanding, a lot of girls still want their dogs to sleep in the bed with them even after they’re married. That’s just gross and unhealthy, but it’s an issue in some marriages, unfortunately. For example, a friend of mine got tired of the dogs sleeping in the bed with them, so he and his wife slept in separate beds (actually, separate rooms). A mutual friend of ours asked him, “Why don’t you just say, ‘It’s either the dogs or me’?” He said, “I did.”

  78. earl says:

    ‘Now I see so many women in my age group adopting dogs and treating them as children! No doubt these women are mentally unstable.’

    I am *this* close to start being a smart ass and asking how it was to gestate a dog fetus for 9 months and then give birth to it. That’s the type of story the media would love.

    Moral of the story…she’s a ‘pet owner’ not an actual mother of any kind.

  79. earl says:

    For example, a friend of mine got tired of the dogs sleeping in the bed with them, so he and his wife slept in separate beds (actually, separate rooms). A mutual friend of ours asked him, “Why don’t you just say, ‘It’s either the dogs or me’?” He said, “I did.”

    Perhaps that’s another lesson…don’t give a woman an ultimatum like that.

  80. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Hank Flanders, @Earl, others:

    Beware of the term “fur-baby” or “fur-babies”.

  81. squid_hunt says:

    @earl

    Perhaps that’s another lesson…don’t give a woman an ultimatum like that.

    I think the lesson is don’t ask permission to sleep in your own bed. Kick the stupid dogs out. She can go to if she likes.

  82. Kevin says:

    @Strand
    Unfortunately men no longer marry down professionally as you describe. Those dentists and doctors are married to lawyers and MBAs. That is by far the norm now as the UMC closes ranks. This change has been well documents.

    Small business owners untainted by excessive education probably still marry people who are not professionals.

  83. Minesweeper says:

    @Hank,”For example, a friend of mine got tired of the dogs sleeping in the bed with them, so he and his wife slept in separate beds (actually, separate rooms). A mutual friend of ours asked him, “Why don’t you just say, ‘It’s either the dogs or me’?” He said, “I did.””

    thats hilarious !

  84. Minesweeper says:

    @Kevin, yeah, as the marriage laws really enforce halfing or more your assets\future income, no well earning man is going to take the risk on a lower earning spouse these days.

    If she contributes the same amount as you financially and you keep her working, then you are covered for a divorce. She needs to effectively match your income to reduce her desire for divorce in them as suddenly the financial rewards are gone and in fact she will be worse off. Its the only wise strategy these days.

  85. Minesweeper says:

    *She needs to effectively match your income to reduce her desire for divorce as the financial rewards in divorce are gone and in fact she will be worse off.

  86. Kevin says:

    @Gage

    In my congregation there was a strikingly beautiful girl who fell for a boy about 2.5 years her senior. Her father was a doctor and the wife stayed home to raise the children. The girl was also bright. Everything in the world was hers for the taking. The girl chose to marry the boy as soon as she graduated HS at 18 and the whole congregation was gossip about how she had failed and the parents worried they failed. This is despite the explicit doctrine in our faith that we are in this life to serve Christ and be married and having children is a huge part. Successful marriage is what we apparently teach boys and girls all their lives, but when rubber meets the road we really mean get feminist merit badges and find a boy sometime in your late 20s or early 30s. The girl was succeeding at what are apparently our most cherished goals but the message every other girl saw was “yes, but not this early. wait wait. College is more important than eternal goals.”

    The girl got married and they had a child after about 1 yr. Seem pretty happy. But was shocking to see most people shove our religious conviction out the window to accommodate the world.

  87. Jeff Strand says:

    @Kevin: “Unfortunately men no longer marry down professionally as you describe. Those dentists and doctors are married to lawyers and MBAs. That is by far the norm now as the UMC closes ranks. This change has been well documents.”

    There’s some of this, I’m sure. But honestly, I see a lot more of the breadwinner husband with either a SAHM, or she works a part time, flexible hour, “mommy track” job. One exception I can think of is a couple I know who just got married (both bringing in kids from prior relationships) – he is a cook at a casual style restaurant, and she is a nurse (who works very long hours).

    I do think professional, successful, UMC men are hesitant to marry a girl who has NO marketable skills, NO education post-high school, and only works a minimum wage job like waitress or cashier. Yeah, I can see an aspiring dentist, or airline pilot, or doctor being turned off by that – it smacks of “white trash”, “lazy”, “probably into drugs”, etc. But a gal who did a couple years of vocational school, maybe got a 2 year degree out of the deal, speaks and acts professionally? That’s totally different. And a lot of it is the ENVIRONMENT she works in – if it’s a professional setting, that makes all the difference. Big difference versus working at a Denny’s, waiting tables.

    Think of a dental hygienist working in the professional setting of a dentist office. Or an X-Ray tech working in a doctor’s office. Or a legal secretary who dresses attractively (but professionally) and works in a lawyer’s office. Or a flight attendant who wears her uniform well, has her hair put up and done right, the correct amount of makeup, speaks professionally and deals with passengers with a smile, very much all squared away.

    Those kinds of girls are VERY marriageable. They have the professional training and education to pass in UMC circles as the wife of a very successful man. Yet they finished with their education around age 20. They are not career bitches. They will be able to get a job anywhere with their practical skills, training, and experience…but they don’t have a massive life investment in their career. So they will probably be very open to walking away from it, prioritizing family, and perhaps becoming a SAHM.

    Anyway, that’s my opinion. My wife is perhaps more redpill than I am – she WOULD like our daughters to marry right out of high school, even to a boy their own age. But I think that unwise. I am planning on pushing them into what I laid out here – start with two years of vocational school after high school (although dental hygienist takes 3 years, but if you go during the summer as well, probably can do it in 2.5). Hopefully get a two year degree along the way. Then, be done with education at about age 20…or 21 at latest. Then, get a job in a professional setting, putting your schooling to work. Then, date and marry a professional, successful Alpha on his way up in that career. A dentist, a doctor, an airline pilot, a lawyer, a businessman, etc. Hopefully he’s in his late 20’s and starting to establish himself financially. And he now has the maturity to be a head of household. Just let nature take its course.

    Nothing is guaranteed in life, of course. But this path seems like the best bet to me. Again, I don’t think your average 18 year old boy, just graduating high school, is ready for marriage financially. And even less is he mentally and emotionally mature enough to step into the role of Head of Household. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I expect them to be very few.

  88. earl says:

    The girl got married and they had a child after about 1 yr. Seem pretty happy. But was shocking to see most people shove our religious conviction out the window to accommodate the world.

    There’s a lot of feminism in most religious circles and men. A young woman getting married and having children in marriage making some man an ‘evil patriarch’ is now seen as something to recoil in horror over. Or along the same token married couples who have 4 or more kids.

    And Jeff…better make sure your princesses don’t hope on the carousel when they find their alpha of right now during your life plan. Being a single mother at 19 is way worse than being a married mother at 19.

  89. vfm7916 says:

    @Jeff Encourage marriage to a 5+ year older man with trade or professional career. Discourage college until after children. Way better outcomes.

  90. earl says:

    Encourage marriage to a 5+ year older man with trade or professional career. Discourage college until after children. Way better outcomes.

    Agreed.

  91. earl says:

    One thing I wish fathers would do is scout out the local talent in their area and see if he can find some young promising prospect for his daughter and if he finds one to at least give him some encouragement or a hint he has a single daughter looking. I NEVER see this. It’s often mothers or grandmothers who are more aggressive but what they think their daughters are is often hit or miss. Or the other case the daughter just sifts through a bunch of men without ever making a decision because it’s based more on her feelings at that time rather than if he’s a marriagable prospect.

  92. Jeff Strand says:

    @vfm: “Encourage marriage to a 5+ year older man with trade or professional career. Discourage college until after children. Way better outcomes.”

    Disagree. With you and Earl. For the reasons I stated previously, and will briefly elaborate here.

    By “college” I’m not talking 4 years at a party school, riding fraternity boys. I’m talking, as I said, 2 years at a vocational school, hopefully accompanied by a 2 year degree. When she’s done, she’s still only 20. This gives her the hall pass to get into the professional environment where she can meet and date the dentist, the lawyer, the airline pilot, the doctor (more likely, resident…but that’s fine. He’s got the earning potential – the actual income will follow).

    Your idea doesn’t seem so realistic. What does she do for a job, fresh out of high school and with no specialized skills? Wait tables? Cashier? And you think that a young dentist would be more attracted to that – to bring her into his UMC world, to his family, his parents – than the cute young dental hygienist with a two year degree who works in the professional setting of his dentist office?

    Same thing with a doctor. Let’s say he’s in his late 20’s and halfway through his residency. Is he really going to want to wife up and bring home to mom and and dad the cashier from 7-11 that he chats up when he stops to get his morning coffee? And show her off to his friends and family as his future wife? Not a chance! But the cute young gal he runs into by the X-Ray machine? She has a two year degree and she operates the X-Ray, and she works in the professional environment of a doctor’s office or clinic. And she acts professionally and speaks like an educated person. Ahhh, now you’re talking!

    In short, I think you guys are nuts. But by all means, if you have a daughter some day, you go ahead and do it your way. Have her go right to work after high school, with no real skills or specialized education…and still try to lock down a successful, UMC, up and coming Alpha. Good luck. I don’t see it happening.

  93. Gage says:

    @earl
    “Or along the same token married couples who have 4 or more kids.”

    my wife and i have more than 4 kids and people at stores and/or restaurants look at us like we are insane. Ironically, I have noticed that church people are often the most condescending towards large families. God forbid someone actually do what the Bible encourages and be fruitful and multiply more than 1 or 2 times. I so enjoy how uncomfortable people are around large families that it makes me want to have another kid.

  94. earl says:

    In short, I think you guys are nuts.

    Of course you do.

    Have her go right to work after high school, with no real skills or specialized education…and still try to lock down a successful, UMC, up and coming Alpha.

    What happened to your wife teaching them how to cook and run a home?

    I know plenty of girls with ‘specialized education’ who couldn’t use a stove or know how to keep a tidy apartment to save their lives.

  95. earl says:

    I wouldn’t want my primary focus to have a lot of kids be to offend people…but I will say it makes the prospect of it much more intriguing.

    I never had a problem with it as long as it’s a married couple and they are taking care of them. A man has the right to as big a family that God gives him. When it’s a single mother who has 5 of them from 5 different dads that’s a different story.

  96. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “What happened to your wife teaching them how to cook and run a home?”

    Nothing happened to it. And not only cook and run a home, but sewing, etiquette, being sweet and feminine, physically fit and attractive, play the piano, etc.

    But I’m telling you, very few UMC alphas in the top professions are looking to marry the waitress at Denny’s with a high school diploma…no matter how well she can cook and sew. They are not going to bring her home to their family and put a ring on her finger. It’s just not happening. But they WILL marry the professional girl with the 2 year degree who works in their dentist’s or doctor’s office, etc.

    And why would she go to college AFTER children? What, in her 40’s? On top of running the kids to and from school every day, helping with their homework, assisting at school events, doing the shopping, running errands, doing the cooking, all household chores and laundry, being always sexually available for hubby, etc? Are you even serious? And by then, her hubby should be coming into his peak earning years anyway.

    But again, if you have a daughter one day….which you almost certainly won’t, based on your comments here that there are no marriageable women/NAWALT’s out there….feel free to have her go right to work after high school, at a minimum wage, unskilled job. And then try to lock down a young man from the UMC, who’s Alpha, and who’s on his way to being a successful businessman, dentist, doctor, airline pilot, lawyer, etc. Feel free to give that a try. See how well it works out.

  97. Oscar says:

    @ Gage

    my wife and i have more than 4 kids and people at stores and/or restaurants look at us like we are insane.

    Nine kids here. Occasionally, someone sees our family of 11 pouring out of our Sprinter van, and gives us this contorted, disgusted, contemptuous look. It’s always a woman; invariably middle aged, fat, with a butch haircut.

    I just smile and wave.

  98. earl says:

    But I’m telling you, very few UMC alphas in the top professions are looking to marry the waitress at Denny’s with a high school diploma…no matter how well she can cook and sew.

    So I’m assuming you know exactly what an UMC alpha guy is looking for because you hang out with them regularly and talk with them frequently?

    Well if that’s the case that you know of so many fine male prospects, why not hint at them that you have some soon to be marriagable daughters on the way? Then they can tell you they don’t want no young, beautiful, fertile, able to cook ‘Denny’s waitress’.

    But again, if you have a daughter one day….which you almost certainly won’t, based on your comments here that there are no marriageable women/NAWALT’s out there….feel free to have her go right to work after high school, at a minimum wage, unskilled job. And then try to lock down a young man from the UMC, who’s Alpha, and who’s on his way to being a successful businessman, dentist, doctor, airline pilot, lawyer, etc. Feel free to give that a try. See how well it works out.

    I’ll ask my mother…seemed to work out pretty well for her.

  99. earl says:

    My father said on the day of his wedding…and I quote.

    ‘Your mother actually brought money into the marriage.’

    Had a high school degree and what Jeff would call an ‘unskilled’ job.

    Now women have specialized educations and mountains of debt.

  100. bigjohn33 says:

    Dalrock,
    “Men as a group aren’t the ones driving the delay in marriage.”

    True, but women’s preferences are not the only thing driving the delay in marriage. Men’s reluctance to settle down with women they percieve as unattractive is part of that equation. And age isn’t the only factor of female attractiveness, nor is it the only variable that has been changing in the last several decades.

    “Moreover, women don’t get skinnier as they age.”

    Also true. But men’s standards decrease with age. If you eliminated or decreased female obesity the average age of marriage would most likely go down and the total percentage of people married would go up. There are women who would prefer to marry, and would prefer to marry young but can’t because men aren’t willing to marry them. Men as a group aren’t hypergamous but they do have standards. The fact that 40% of women are clinically obese (and didn’t use to be) has to have a significant effect on the dating and marriage markets.

    If you plotted female group obesity to female average age of marriage I bet it would be very highly correlated. Not holding my breath for that study. Just saying.

  101. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “Now women have specialized educations and mountains of debt.”

    Luckily I’m a millionaire – my kids won’t have any debt. I’m going to spend nearly $100k just on their high school education. In cash. Pretty sure I can swing a couple years of State College/vocational school. (Told you I’m a natural Alpha, lol)

    But like I said Earl, go out and have a couple kids yourself. Then you can raise them however you want.

  102. feeriker says:

    “I have noticed that church people are often the most condescending towards large families.”

    “Church people,” as opposed to real Christians. The distinction is an important one.

  103. Gunner Q says:

    OT: if anybody is interested, I dug into the backgrounds of the Taos judges who just dismissed charges against those Muslim terrorist child abusers. Turns out Chief Justice McElroy is a child abuser himself.

    https://gunnerq.com/2018/08/30/the-taos-judges-who-pardoned-terrorists/

  104. Kevin says:

    @Strand

    I think you are describing a prior generation. Now the male dental student goes to dental school single. Over half his class is single girls who desperately want to marry someone who makes as much as her or more. The guys may not be choosy but the hypergamy of the girls pushes them to try and marry another professional. Guys marrying professionally down still occurs (but not nearly as much) but with girls it almost never happens. With girls in [forced] equal numbers in most professional schools those professional women suck up most the available professional men.

    Again this is a trend that has been published on. There are certainly exceptions but its more and more rare. And congrats on being a millionaire.

  105. earl says:

    ‘(Told you I’m a natural Alpha, lol)’

    Congrats on the cash. My mother had HER OWN money coming into the marriage. My college degree was fully paid by my work at various unskilled jobs so I could have the job I have today. In my 20s I’d be the type of guy you’d look down upon because my financial status wasn’t optimal even though I was working my butt off in my career. And guess what the skilled educated women were doing…partying in bars most weekends.

    ‘But like I said Earl, go out and have a couple kids yourself. Then you can raise them however you want.’

    I won’t assume there’s this hypothetical marriage minded UMC completed alpha who will just fall into their lap because they have a degree & dental hygienist job. Her and every other woman are going to make a push for that guy…and who’s to say he’ll want to deflower your princesses because he can? That too will also take a hit to their marital chances.

  106. ZMAN says:

    @Minesweeper
    Thanks for the reply. Quite honestly I do not give a shit about anything a homosexual says or anything that comes out of the mouth of a feminist doesn’t matter what wave she belonged to.

    The attitudes of the women of my generation are just so off-putting that I cannot stand them and quite frankly so many women are just simply out of place in so many jobs in the work force. It makes no sense.

    They run amok in the organization I am with and cause many problems especially having sex with multiple men and playing men against each other. Not to mention the married women and their philandering….it is pretty easy for me to spot a whore now and boy are they out here in full force waiting for a man with balls to fuck their brains out since they married some Beta Bitch boy who is paying for the crotch spawn.

    @Hank Flanders
    Dude these women with dogs are getting them and treating them like children and taking care of them in the same manner. Many of them are saying they are “rescuing them”. I seriously think they need to be rescued back from a lot of these women.

    All this is, is a way for these women to cater to their maternal instincts. Normally the women I see doing this are your typical career types doing their masters and PHD’s.

  107. Sharkly says:

    FWIW, unless your daughter has an intimacy disorder, I wouldn’t recommend any woman marry a professional pilot. While many of them are quite Alpha, their marriages almost always involve unhappy wives. Pilots are gone most of the time. And they have sluts throwing themselves at them in every city they land in, wanting that dreamy one night stand with the mysterious Captain who will be flying back out of their life guaranteed, the next morning.

  108. info says:

    ”True, but women’s preferences are not the only thing driving the delay in marriage. Men’s reluctance to settle down with women they percieve as unattractive is part of that equation. And age isn’t the only factor of female attractiveness, nor is it the only variable that has been changing in the last several decades.”

    You will be quite surprised at male thirst.

  109. info says:

    @bigjohn33

  110. rugby11 says:

    I though it was helping the conversation flow
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jun/11/is-marriage-really-on-the-decline-because-of-mens-cheap-access-to-sex

    History and Affection
    https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97920&page=1

    “When making the decision whether or not to get married, disregard societal opinion and follow your instinct.”https://www.businessinsider.com/the-reasons-for-getting-married-are-no-longer-valid-2018-3

  111. Paul says:

    “I think the lesson is don’t ask permission to sleep in your own bed.”

    I think the lesson is don’t ask permission

  112. Spike says:

    ZMAN:
    @Hank Flanders
    Dude these women with dogs are getting them and treating them like children and taking care of them in the same manner. Many of them are saying they are “rescuing them”. I seriously think they need to be rescued back from a lot of these women.

    -Many women’s pets are put onto their stupid, health ruining diets, such as veganism (aka ”voluntary malnutrition”). So, yes, the animals need to be rescued from them.

  113. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “I won’t assume there’s this hypothetical marriage minded UMC completed alpha who will just fall into their lap because they have a degree & dental hygienist job.”

    I already said I admit there are no guarantees. But it’s about what the best path is. You play the odds.

    Are you telling me she’d have a better chance of locking down the marriage minded UMC completed Alpha by just having a high school diploma and waiting tables?

    Dude, you make no sense. These kind of UMC Alpha guys don’t want a feminist-inclined career bitch, I agree (who does?) But nor are they going to bring home to mom and dad as their new daughter-in-law the waitress at Denny’s or the cashier at 7-11. The perfect compromise is the gal with a 2 year degree and specialized skills who works in their professional settings.

    How do you not get this? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

  114. Jeff Strand says:

    @Kevin: “Guys marrying professionally down still occurs (but not nearly as much) but with girls it almost never happens.”

    Agree that “with girls it almost never happens” – you will virtually never see a female using her high paying career to support a family. But men do it as a matter of course.

    So what is it about the women that makes them so selfish that they absolutely refuse to support a family with their (large) incomes? And conversely, what is it about men that make them so selfLESS that they will do so almost without questioning it?

    I asked these questions once at the old HUS site. Aunt Giggles immediately told me I’m a liar and banned me from the site. She said women financially support families all the time. Lol, she must live in an alternate dimension or something…cause I sure don’t see it.

  115. earl says:

    ‘Are you telling me she’d have a better chance of locking down the marriage minded UMC completed Alpha by just having a high school diploma and waiting tables? ‘

    I’m telling you her education and career choice are like 9th and 10th on the list…after things like hints at fertility, beauty, helpful personality, modesty, able to run a home, able to cook, wanting kids, etc. How many times has that been brought up even in this blog?

  116. BillyS says:

    I asked these questions once at the old HUS site. Aunt Giggles immediately told me I’m a liar and banned me from the site. She said women financially support families all the time. Lol, she must live in an alternate dimension or something…cause I sure don’t see it.

    She would probably also say my exwife is supporting herself after our current extortion agreement (spousal support) runs out. It was voluntary, but it was also a very stupid choice for her because she has almost 0 earning potential and is likely to end up on the dole at that point.

    So yes, many women support families (those who are single parents), but that is an inaccurate twist of the facts.

  117. theShield220 says:

    @Jeff Strand
    “Natural Alpha”, huh…sure you don’t mean natural asshole? ‘Cause you seem to think your money talks around here. If your ideas carry so much weight, let them stand on their own.
    And by the way, I have daughters – plenty of them – and I agree with Earl. It’s about priorities. If your main priority is material success, your plan makes sense; but it does not address the psychological problem of hypergamy, or, more importantly, the spiritual problems caused by loving the world.

  118. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “I’m telling you her education and career choice are like 9th and 10th on the list…after things like hints at fertility, beauty, helpful personality, modesty, able to run a home, able to cook, wanting kids, etc. How many times has that been brought up even in this blog?”

    Ok, thank you for making your opinion clear. I just don’t buy it. So the only thing we can do is agree to disagree.

    I agree all the traits you listed are important. But even with those attributes, I just don’t believe there is much chance for a girl who only finished high school, and so is working some minimum wage job waiting tables or being a cashier, of landing an UMC Alpha who is on his way to being a doctor, dentist, lawyer, airline pilot, etc. I don’t see that guy being comfortable taking her home to his family and circle of friends and passing her off as his future wife.

    I think he’s much more likely to do that with the gal who completed a two year degree, has a specialized skill set, acts and speaks like an educated and professional person, and works in the same kind of professional setting as he does (though obviously in a less prestigious position, e.g. she’s a legal secretary and he’s an attorney, or she’s a physical therapist and he’s a med school graduate who’s completing his residency, or she’s a flight attendant and he’s a pilot, etc.)

    You don’t agree, and I think you’re nuts. But you’re entitled to your opinion. And it doesn’t matter anyway, it’s not like you’re gonna have kids. So the point is moot for you. We just will agree to disagree. I will follow the path that makes sense to me.

  119. Jeff Strand says:

    TheShield220,

    Relax, chump. Obviously you’re struggling financially, as this so apparently hit a nerve. As for me, I only mentioned that I’m quite “comfortable” because Earl implied that a kid going to college means that they will come out with a lot of debt. And I was answering that by pointing out that in my case, I can easily pay for my kids’ college without breaking a sweat. In fact, the 8 years they will spend in high school will cost more – you’re talking $100k for that! So I wasn’t bragging, just pointing out my situation.

    And yes, I am a natural Alpha. And again, that’s not bragging. It’s just the truth. We talk about Alpha’s all the time in the manosphere, so why so shocked that one should post once in awhile? I don’t brag, but I see no reason to apologize for who I am either. I am a natural Alpha. I just am. Should I lie and say I’m not? Why do you take it as bragging, just stating a fact like this?

  120. Dalrock says:

    @Jeff Strand

    Relax, chump. Obviously you’re struggling financially, as this so apparently hit a nerve. As for me, I only mentioned that I’m quite “comfortable” because Earl implied that a kid going to college means that they will come out with a lot of debt. And I was answering that by pointing out that in my case, I can easily pay for my kids’ college without breaking a sweat. In fact, the 8 years they will spend in high school will cost more – you’re talking $100k for that! So I wasn’t bragging, just pointing out my situation.

    And yes, I am a natural Alpha. And again, that’s not bragging. It’s just the truth. We talk about Alpha’s all the time in the manosphere, so why so shocked that one should post once in awhile? I don’t brag, but I see no reason to apologize for who I am either. I am a natural Alpha. I just am. Should I lie and say I’m not? Why do you take it as bragging, just stating a fact like this?

    The main problem is you don’t understand what the term means in the sphere. You think it means “good”, “strong”, or (as you’ve written multiple times above) “financially successful”. It doesn’t. It means sexy, or panty peeler. Alphas are sexy, betas are hard working and loyal. Alpha also has connotations of being naturally adept at social situations. So one would expect an alpha (as defined in the sphere) for example to naturally pick up on the context of how a specific group is using a term like alpha. Blundering on about how alpha you are because of your income is ironic because it actually proves the opposite.

    There is also a bit of weirdness about a father bragging that he is so sexy that he just knows his daughter is going to marry a real panty peeler. This isn’t to say that fathers shouldn’t want their children to marry attractive spouses, but a little goes a long way here, and beyond that it is creepy. Which isn’t remotely alpha.

  121. earl says:

    Yeah if anything Jeff wants his daughters by the definiton of the sphere to marry a high level beta. Which is not a bad thing…but it’s not like they are plentiful either or that’s this’ll be type of guy his daughter goes for. And high level betas are always high level betas…I was hard working and loyal in high school and had funds to pay for college…although Jeff would look at me and say I wasn’t ‘finacially ready’ enough. I’m in a better situation now. That’s how we operate.

    Hence why I suggested to Jeff if he knows this type of guy to start putting a bug in their ear. If he does make the final call on which man she should marry…perhaps he should be on the lookout for one.

  122. Anonymous Reader says:

    Several things about the Jeff Strand saga do not add up, but that’s for a different time….

    Right now, the Strand model of “doctor marries nurse, dentist marries hygenist, lawyer marries paralegal / administrative assistant” is about 20 years out of date. Men need to understand this, men with daughters moreso. Although the model does suggests when Strand married…

    Pick one example: medicine.
    The local medical school has a plurality of women, possibly a slight majority in the first year. Their hypergamy will not allow them to marry down. Women tend to go into pediatrics or family medicine, so they will aim for other doctors such as specialists (cardiac surgeons would be one high flier). On the male side, why should a man marry a nurse or even a PA / NP when he could marry a pediatrician who is likely to earn more?

    Lateral marriages within the professions – doctors marry other doctors, dentists marry other dentists, lawyers marry other lawyers – is so common that it has even been commented upon in the lame mainstream press. Regretfully I haven’t press links handy.

    The “glass ceiling” that has been broken actually turns out to be a glass floor, thanks to Affirmative Actions and other female centric privileges. Hypergamy is what it is. Strand’s model is a generation out of date.

    A better model for churchgoing girls: marry that future dentist while he’s still in school. Grow with him. Work at some job to help support the both of them, then start bearing children once he’s out and gotten into a practice. I have seen this in my social circle; it means that the woman who marries doesn’t have her own YouGoGrrl career, so I can understand why some Dads Of Daughters Only might not go for it.

    It’s not 1995 anymore. Old models do not work nearly as well as they once did.

  123. Novaseeker says:

    The local medical school has a plurality of women, possibly a slight majority in the first year. Their hypergamy will not allow them to marry down. Women tend to go into pediatrics or family medicine, so they will aim for other doctors such as specialists (cardiac surgeons would be one high flier). On the male side, why should a man marry a nurse or even a PA / NP when he could marry a pediatrician who is likely to earn more?

    Lateral marriages within the professions – doctors marry other doctors, dentists marry other dentists, lawyers marry other lawyers – is so common that it has even been commented upon in the lame mainstream press. Regretfully I haven’t press links handy.

    Yep — this is exactly right and has been happening for 15-20 years now, but of course has been intensifying as time goes along. I don’t know a single lawyer or doctor who is married to someone who doesn’t also have an advanced degree — certainly not a two-year degree, and in most cases not “just” an undergraduate degree. Best way to marry a doctor? Become one, and go into a flexible field like pedes, family practice, or gyn. Then you marry the surgeon or the cardiologist or the gas-passer who makes serious coin and works all the time while you work far fewer hours and live high UMC with both incomes. That’s how it works today.

    Same among lawyers — man is partner in law firm, wife is in-house counsel or works for public interest or something similar. I haven’t seen a lawyer/paralegal marriage in … well over 20 years.

  124. AnonS says:

    I met a girl that did what I would hope to have my kids do.

    Just homeschool and graduate highschool at 14, then local/online college to get undergrad at 18 and then consider a 2 year masters or not. How much of K-12 have you forgotten, you don’t think you can shave 4 years off? Especially that time isn’t wasted on slow and disruptive children.

  125. Anon says:

    Jeff Strand squeaked :

    And yes, I am a natural Alpha. And again, that’s not bragging. It’s just the truth. We talk about Alpha’s all the time in the manosphere, so why so shocked that one should post once in awhile? I don’t brag, but I see no reason to apologize for who I am either. I am a natural Alpha. I just am.

    No. You are a natural Beta. You are cartoonishly clueless, and a high-paying profession hasn’t been the foremost selling point for men in the SMP since the mid-90s. You are just where women turn to for ‘beta bux’, nothing more. The pickup artist with the feather boa who spends zero is the one who has sex with all the women who then turn to you to pick up the tab and the privilege of driving her to the airport.

    Plus, a father who is so enamored with her daughter that he believes she can get the top 1% of men, is THE definition of a Beta male who his totally despised by his wife (which is why he turns to his daughter and obsesses over her).

  126. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    Best way to marry a doctor? Become one, and go into a flexible field like pedes, family practice, or gyn. Then you marry the surgeon or the cardiologist or the gas-passer who makes serious coin and works all the time while you work far fewer hours and live high UMC with both incomes.

    This brings up the larger issue: women who go all the way through med school, residency and joining a practice, only to cut back to basically “hobby” levels after the first or second child. This is a hidden, unmentionable, part of the “doctor shortage”. Because men generally don’t do that: a man who makes it through med school and residency likely will practice medicine for another 25 or so years. There is a doctor shortage in part because not all med school graduates who survive residency actually become full time doctors…

    However, limiting women’s opportunities to suck up and waste finite resources is illegal.

  127. Jeff Strand says:

    @Dalrock: “The main problem is you don’t understand what the term means in the sphere. You think it means “good”, “strong”, or (as you’ve written multiple times above) “financially successful”. It doesn’t. It means sexy, or panty peeler.”

    You’re wrong. I know very well what it means. And truthfully, I’ve always been very successful with women. The typical girls I dated in my single years were all smoking hotties – one, that I dated for almost two years in my mid 20’s, was a 19 year old sexpot who looked like Kelly Bundy in the first years of the show “Married with Children” (when she was more of the heavy-metal bad girl, versus just the dumb blonde bimbo the writers morphed her into in later seasons). This chick would wear skin tight latex miniskirts when we would go clubbing, and she would be all over me. Anywhere I’d go with her, every head would turn.

    Our first date lasted six weeks (I took her home to my place at the end of the date), and we fvcked every day during that time, sometimes multiple times a day (except for days when she was on the rag, per my choice, I think it’s gross). So basically, I took this smoking hottie on a date, and ended up setting her up in my apt. to be my personal fvck doll and very own Kelly Bundy for a month and a half, lol.

    She literally cried when (after six weeks) I told her she couldn’t continue to live with me in my apt. – she couldn’t stand the thought of being apart from me for even a couple days – she went on and on about how much she loved me and needed me. Also, several times I picked up girls at the clubs and brought them home for threesomes (though my chick wasn’t really into girls, but was willing to put on a show for me). And that was just normal for me. And I dated plenty of other hotties besides her. Some were more conservative in how they dressed, but all were way hot. Usually very pretty blondes (my “type”). Again, this was just normal to me.

    Later in my twenties, I dated and got engaged to this beautiful, petite little blonde with big blue eyes. Just the cutest girl. Again, a real head turner. So hot she could have any guy. Well, she was desperate to lock me down and marry me (and she was very much in her prime, at 25 years old, and never married and no kids). A couple months after we got engaged, I got cold feet and ended it. She was so devastated at losing me that she had a breakdown over it! I poop you negative.

    Another one I dated, a Cuban gal (one of the rare brunettes), wanted me so badly that she offered to buy us a house and put both our names on it (she had the money to do this), as well as buy me a truck, if I would propose and put a ring on her finger. I refused, and broke up with her. She was so devastated that she wrote a heartsick letter to my mom! (I still have the letter). In the letter, she complains how I cheated on her by dating other girls when we were together (which was true), and ended by saying that I never cried a single tear over her, while she “cried many tears” over me.

    This Cuban gal called me at my apt. a few weeks after I ended it. I happened to be entertaining a very attractive young lady at the time, whom I had been working on getting with over the past few months (wooing her away from her bf at the time). Deciding to be a little naughty, I put her on the phone. Which resulted in the Cuban screaming at her, “You bitch, you stole my boyfriend!” And my new chick responding by threatening to break her legs! And then taunting her with, “He’s mine now!” If they were both there in person, I’m certain they would have gotten in a physical fight over me.

    A couple years later, I really did get married. And I could have had many affairs since I got married. I CHOOSE not to, because my NAWALT wife more than takes care of all my needs (on demand, she never says no)…and she has kept herself very fit and sexy over the years (still turns heads and gets compliments wherever she goes.). And my wife is 7 years younger than me, which is another Alpha characteristic. So while I’ve often flirted with many girls over the years I’ve been married (hard habit to break, lol) I really don’t feel the need to maintain a mistress.

    And btw, my wife doesn’t get mad seeing me flirt with other chicks – she realizes it comes with the territory when you marry an Alpha. And it even turns her on, knowing other chicks want me (she has confided this to me). As an example: a couple years ago, I took her out for dinner and dancing and, while she was in the bathroom, I flirted so much with this chick from the dance floor that I was already making out with her when my wife returned! That night, my wife and I had amazing sex, she was so turned on! (And the funny part was, the chick I was making out with, when my wife came over and I explained who she was, said “Your wife is gorgeous!” To which I replied, “I know”, lol)

    Now I ask you, honestly, are these the experiences with women and dating of your average Joe? Or are these the experiences of an Alpha?

    So no, I never said Alpha is only about income. But it’s part of the whole package – it’s part of the Alpha drive to succeed. Truth be told, my company alone (that I started myself, from scratch) has over a million in assets, and that’s not counting my personal holdings and assets. So that factors in, along with the attitude of being Alpha…it’s the mindset of being a leader. Why do you think it’s so easy for my wife to submit to me in all things? Her inborn female hypergamy is telling her “You’ve got the Alpha, so go ahead and be his woman – submit to him”. This is why she tells me that I “make it so easy” for her to submit and surrender to me…she could never feel that way toward a beta or soy boy.

    So again, I’m not bragging…just stating facts. I am a natural Alpha. Some of us guys just are. And the only way I’m not, is if you restrict your definition to the most famous, rich guys…who have girls throwing their panties at them. Talking about Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Tommy Lee, Channing Tatum, etc. So yeah, if that’s your definition of “Alpha”, then I don’t qualify. But if that’s the case, then the number of guys who are Alpha is so very small, that it seeems pointless to talk about it as much as we do in the ‘sphere. Because very few girls are going to have personal relations with those guys.

    So again, it is what it is. I get the feeling from some on here that I should feel guilty for saying I’m a natural Alpha. But it’s only the truth. Why should I feel bad for just stating a fact?

  128. earl says:

    @Jeff

    So do you think the hypothetical UMC alpha pilot/doctor/lawyer who in theory can get sex from any woman he wants is going to suddenly see your educated, job holding daughters and just decide he wants to get married…or will he see a beautiful, fertile 19-22 year old sexpot he can fornicate with for six weeks because they got the hots for each other and then he’ll move on when he’s done with her? What would it be about your daughters in particular that would make him change?

    That’s why I said I hope your princesses don’t get on the carousel with this life plan of yours.

  129. feeriker says:

    Just homeschool and graduate high school at 14, then local/online college to get undergrad at 18 and then consider a 2 year masters or not. How much of K-12 have you forgotten, you don’t think you can shave 4 years off? Especially that time isn’t wasted on slow and disruptive children.

    Yes, and that bolded part is very important. I believe it was Walter Williams who said in a column some years ago that primary and secondary education (K-12) can be cut by four years, or maybe even six. In any event it’s nearly twice as long as it needs to be, much of it is wasted time that keeps young people from growing up into adults and traps them in extended adolescence, and that the real purpose of the extra years is to keep otherwise-useless-and-unemployable adults (i.e., “teachers”) on the dole.* Most of our ancestors were lucky to get six years of formal classroom-based schooling in, and yet many of them were better educated and more productive than even the “brightest” of today’s publik skool prizners (think: Thomas Edison and Henry Ford, to name just two off the top of my head).

    (* As if to prove that educating a child in “The Three Rs” takes almost no special talent or ability at all, my ex-wife, WHO BARELY HAD A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA, homeschooled our grandson for a year before he started kindergarten, using, among other tools, an 1879 McGuffy Reader that focused on phonetics for reading. She had him reading at a 2nd Grade level before he even started Kindergarten [of course my skank-ho daughter insisted on sending him to publik skool, which undid everything her mother had accomplished within six months.)

  130. feministhater says:

    Did Jeff really just write an essay type comment explaining how alpha AF he is?

    I didn’t read it. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!!

  131. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “So do you think the hypothetical UMC alpha pilot/doctor/lawyer who in theory can get sex from any woman he wants is going to suddenly see your educated, job holding daughters and just decide he wants to get married…or will he see a beautiful, fertile 19-22 year old sexpot he can fornicate with for six weeks because they got the hots for each other and then he’ll move on when he’s done with her? What would it be about your daughters in particular that would make him change?”

    Because I will teach my daughters “girl game”. They will know just which buttons to push. I know just what kind of girl those kinds of Alpha provider types are looking for in a wife. Obviously, a lot of the feminine qualities you previously mentioned. But when it comes to sexuality, they don’t want a slut…but nor do they want a prude. The key is to come across as playfully sexual, push his buttons, but pull back and not allow him to go all the way….and hold out, if not all the way to the wedding night, then at least until you have a ring on your finger.

    It’s all about getting him addicted to you, but at the same time giving the vibe that “I’m not like those sluts out there. I don’t give it up without a ring on my finger”. So if he puts a ring on it, everybody wins. If he won’t, she moves on…and she wins because she stops him from wasting her time while he gets free access to her P.

    It’s not rocket science. Girls used to know how to do this instinctively. But feminism has dumbed them down and ruined them.

    P.S. And it’s not about “tricking him into marriage” against his will. The whole point of targeting successful guys in their late 20’s who are on their way up in their profession, is that by that time these guys are starting to think about marriage. They’re suddenly open to it. They’re starting to think, “maybe it’s time.” That’s the time to snag ’em.

  132. feeriker says:

    earl says:
    August 31, 2018 at 4:36 pm

    Earl, Jeff’s daughters are going to wind up just like ASDGamer’s doctor daughters: spinster cat ladies, with Daddy making more and more of a fool of himself trying (in vain) to get them married off as the calendar pages fly by.

    Why? Because 1) at the first sign of any prospect(s) on the immediate horizon, Jeff’s asshole personality will dial up into overdrive, meaning that 2) any prospective, suitably marriageable man will take one look, see through the laughable charade, know that marrying into THAT is just begging for a lifetime of trouble, and will and turn and run like an American tourist after washing down a Mexican dinner with local tap water; and 3) pwecious pwincesses would be infinitely more trouble than their SMV or MMV commands, meaning that enduring Cartoon Dad’s nonsense just isn’t worth the ROI.

    We’ve seen this play out before with other DODOs/cartoon Dads who are less laughably mendacious, so there’s no reason to believe that it won’t also play out at warp speed and on steroids with Jeff. If we here don’t take him seriously, why would any REAL alpha male who is a prospective match for his daughters do likewise?

  133. earl says:

    The key is to come across as playfully sexual, push his buttons, but pull back and not allow him to go all the way….and hold out, if not all the way to the wedding night, then at least until you have a ring on your finger.

    Until you have a ring on your finger….LOL.

    A guy can still back out during an engagement, heck the daughter could do it. Sure it’s a promise that leads to marriage…but it’s not an actual marriage, yet.

    It’s in marriage or it’s nada. Or you could call it what it is outside of marriage, fornication, which is a sin. I would think you should be concerned about your daughter’s spiritual welfare too.

  134. Ray6777 says:

    The iron rule of the internet is guys that brag about being huge studs online are not huge studs in real life. His tall tales get longer and longer and it’s clogging up the board. Please stop responding to him.

  135. earl says:

    If we here don’t take him seriously, why would any REAL alpha male who is a prospective match for his daughters do likewise?

    Why do you think I’m trying to pop this balloon Jeff has created? It’s as close to male ‘fried ice’ that I’ve seen.

  136. Anonymous Reader says:

    Strand
    Because I will teach my daughters “girl game”.

    Why can’t your wife do that? Shouldn’t she have some clue to impart?

    They will know just which buttons to push. I know just what kind of girl those kinds of Alpha provider types are looking for in a wife.

    “Jeff Strand” gets funnier and funnier.

    Obviously, a lot of the feminine qualities you previously mentioned. But when it comes to sexuality, they don’t want a slut…but nor do they want a prude. The key is to come across as playfully sexual, push his buttons, but pull back and not allow him to go all the way….and hold out, if not all the way to the wedding night, then at least until you have a ring on your finger.

    Ok, so you will train them how to be good at cock-teasing. That should serve them well later on.
    What’s the weather like back there in 1988? Or whatever alternate reality you are commenting from…

  137. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ray6777
    His tall tales get longer and longer and it’s clogging up the board. Please stop responding to him.

    Tisk, tisk, this is educational, not mere entertainment.

  138. feministhater says:

    “girl game”

    Lol! This is hilarious! How you going to teach your daughters these tricks of the trade?

    It’s all about getting him addicted to you, but at the same time giving the vibe that “I’m not like those sluts out there. I don’t give it up without a ring on my finger”. So if he puts a ring on it, everybody wins. If he won’t, she moves on…and she wins because she stops him from wasting her time while he gets free access to her P.

    I used to think like this. Then I realised that if the proposed future husband is truly alpha, he won’t become addicted at all. He will keep her in his frame at all times. Thus assuring that your daughters fall for him. Thus, he will be the one in control. Not your daughters.

    if the alpha ‘catch of the day’ turns out to be a chad, those panties will drop and once the thrill is gone, so his he.

  139. earl says:

    Why can’t your wife do that? Shouldn’t she have some clue to impart?

    Yeah after all she was able to convince a chad with great sexual prowess to give up all that easy poon and become the alpha provider of her dreams…perhaps she knows the ways of how to do it. Was it pushing all the right buttons and then turning him down?

    Heck the many stories I’ve read and seen is that if the lady turns down the chad like that in any way…he’s out the door. He’s looking for sex, not marriage.

  140. Oscar says:

    I really wish people would stop mistakenly posting their letters to Penthouse here.

  141. Sharkly says:

    Jeff Strand says: Later in my twenties, I dated and got engaged to this beautiful, petite little blonde with big blue eyes. … A couple months after we got engaged, I got cold feet and ended it. …
    Because I will teach my daughters “girl game”. They will know just which buttons to push. ….and hold out, if not all the way to the wedding night, then at least until you have a ring on your finger.

    LOL I agree with you others, Jeff spends way too much time defending his Alpha Credibility. And it is plain to see he is raising his daughters up to become insecure and consequently braggadocios whores, just like himself.

    Jeff, are you the Jeff Strand that writes horror fiction?

  142. Jeff Strand says:

    I see no reason to waste my time responding to the jealous, bitter, losers. So I won’t.

    But I would like a response from Dalrock, if he doesn’t mind giving it. Dalrock: now that I’ve provided my dating and relationship history with women, that plus “sticking the landing” by marrying a NAWALT, being in a leadership position at work where I am responsible for the lives of many people, being a self-made millionaire, top 5% of income earners nationally, etc…does this qualify as an “Alpha” in your opinion?

    Because if all this doesn’t make the grade, then I don’t see that there is such a thing as an Alpha, short of Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Tommy Lee, etc. And if that’s how it is, I don’t see the relevance. How many girls get any personal time with those guys? Not enough to matter.

    Truly I would appreciate your input Dalrock.

  143. Jeff Strand says:

    P.S.

    Earl, since I provided a pretty detailed synopsis of my dating and relationship history, feel free to do the same. And then we can compare. So I can see, based on your experience, if I should be taking advice from you. Same goes for any other commenters.

  144. Jeff Strand says:

    Oh btw, I realized I left out the time I went out with a nurse on a first date. I bedded her that same night. Had no desire to see her again, and I tried to let her down gently. She did not want things to end, and was so furious that she threatened to accuse me of rape…or do a drive-by on me!

    True story. Make of it what you will. But that kind of stuff was just very normal for me in my single days.

  145. Sharkly says:

    Jeff, are you the Jeff Strand that writes horror fiction?

  146. earl says:

    Earl, since I provided a pretty detailed synopsis of my dating and relationship history, feel free to do the same. And then we can compare. So I can see, based on your experience, if I should be taking advice from you. Same goes for any other commenters.

    What did your wife do to turn you from a chad who could apparently get easy poon anytime he wanted into the alpha provider of her dreams? Did she push your buttons just right but not give it up until the wedding night? What type of ‘girl game’ did she use? I’m assuming it wasn’t sex because you could have got that anywhere.

  147. feeriker says:

    I see no reason to waste my time responding to the jealous, bitter, losers. So I won’t.

    Jeff Strand the feminist. Surprise, surprise.

    And yes, Jeff will continue to respond to “jealous, bitter losers.” The attention whore in him can’t resist.

  148. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “What did your wife do to turn you from a chad who could apparently get easy poon anytime he wanted into the alpha provider of her dreams?”

    She showed the traits that make a good, traditional, surrendered wife. In other words, I could see that she’s a NAWALT. Plus, we really clicked AND had a ton of chemistry. Still do.

    All these years later, I’ve never regretted it. I’ve told you before, NAWALT’s are out there. You just have to find them. It helps to generate a lot of prospects – if you count girls who I only took on a single date, I probably dated about 50 to 100 girls before I met my wife. So you got to put in the time and effort…just as I had to in my career and financial success. Nothing is free.

  149. OKRickety says:

    Jeff Strand,

    1. Since you say you are naturally alpha, why would any alpha here need or want your advice from you?
    2. Since you say you are naturally alpha, then you have no experience in moving from beta to alpha, so why would any beta here need or want advice from you?

    In my opinion (and I suspect many others here), unless someone specifically asks you for advice on dating and relationships, don’t offer any.

  150. earl says:

    She showed the traits that make a good, traditional, surrendered wife. In other words, I could see that she’s a NAWALT. Plus, we really clicked AND had a ton of chemistry. Still do.

    Had nothing to do with what education or job she had. There’s my point.

  151. Lost Patrol says:

    I always heard it was AWALT. Thus NAWALTs cannot exist. Maybe it’s AWALT by matter of degrees.

  152. earl says:

    It helps to generate a lot of prospects – if you count girls who I only took on a single date, I probably dated about 50 to 100 girls before I met my wife.

    Sounds more like you were looking to fornicate, creating unnecessary drama, acted like a chad, and then eventually lucked out with the wife you have because she didn’t give it up to you before marriage (I assume…since you seem to know a lot about ‘girl game’).

    Well today’s ‘alpha’ chad probably isn’t going to turn into the alpha provider with the heart of gold because your daughters knew how to turn him on yet shut him down. He’ll leave because he’s looking for sex and not marriage (heck even marriage minded guys are apprehensive giving the current climate of marriage). It’s better for them to be marriage minded and find a responsible fellow who is also marriage minded.

  153. Sharkly says:

    Jeff, are you the Jeff Strand that writes horror fiction?

    That would seem to be an easy yes or no question for such an Alpha lord as yourself to confirm or deny, unless you are actually ashamed of who you really are.
    That is the only person who comes up when I google your name. Apparently no other “Jeff Strand” has done anything, even worth the notice of Google. I’ve asked this question before on another thread, and you didn’t answer it then too. I believe one way or another, it is apparent that you are obviously a gifted writer of fiction.

  154. earl says:

    @Sharkly…

    This guy?

  155. Sharkly says:

    Patience earl.
    Wait until he admits it. LOL
    Jeff quieted down the last time I asked this also.

    Jeff, are you the Jeff Strand that writes horror fiction?

  156. JRob says:

    https://jeffstrand.wordpress.com/bio/

    Connected those there dots the last thread being AMOGed all over. In between popcorn refills, as I had time.

  157. Sharkly says:

    I’m still waiting for confirmation or denial from our Jeff Strand. Although the age, location, and many details line up, the personality doesn’t. The author is quite accomplished yet seems like a genuinely humble and normal guy with his fans. But our Jeff Strand just bellows about how accomplished he is, for scraping together a million dollars, while likely having done little out of the ordinary, and is seemingly his own only fan. And while the author writes horror books that sell, our Jeff strand writes about imaginary romances that nobody here is buying. I think we got the lesser Jeff Strand.

  158. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “Had nothing to do with what education or job she had. There’s my point.”

    She has a four year degree and was working an office job for the county, if that helps.

    Again, I would have had a hard time bringing home the waitress from Denny’s, with nothing but a high school education, to my family and my circle of friends…and my introducing her as my future wife. Among all my friends, who are all very successful guys and who all got married, not one of them married a gal with only a high school education. Not. One. And I think this is typical.

    But again, it doesn’t HAVE to be a four degree, the girl just needs some specialized education and skills that put her in a professional environment. For example, take my one buddy who has a career in education – he’s got two Master’s Degrees and he’s been a teacher, an administrator, a principal, a vice principal, etc. His wife had done the two year vocational school thing and had become an X-Ray tech. She operates the X-Ray machine when women get their mammograms done, so she works in the professional setting of a doctor’s office or clinic.

    She continued to work part time even after they had kids. She was able to work two days a week, one of which the grandparents were happy to watch the kids. So my buddy only had to keep his schedule open to play Mr. Mom one day a week – usually a Saturday. And his wife was pulling down well over $30 an hour, not bad.

    A buddy at work told me his wife also works two days a week, but as a dental hygienist. She works long days though, so she gets 20 hours in those 2 days. Been doing her job for 10+ years, and she’s now up to $50 an hour!

    It just seems to me like the two year course of vocational training, hopefully coupled with a two year degree, is the best path for a young lady. Then, she can easily earn enough to support herself while she is single, and not be a sponge.. But it’s not a big career investment, so it’s easy for her to walk away later and become a SAHM. Or even continue to work part-time, if the hours can be flexible enough. Like in the examples I just gave.

    And like I keep repeating, a girl like that can stretch to pull down an Alpha, UMC husband…esp if she has good girl game. I guess you disagree, but it’s my belief that it’s EXTREMELY difficult for the high school grad who’s waiting tables or clerking at 7-11 to pull that off, no matter how good her girl game. Like I said, looking at my circle of (all professional, successful) friends, NONE of these guys married a girl with ONLY a high school education. It just doesn’t happen.

  159. Jeff Strand says:

    @Lost Patrol: “I always heard it was AWALT. Thus NAWALTs cannot exist. Maybe it’s AWALT by matter of degrees.”

    We’ve had that debate many times. Needless to say, I firmly come down on the side that NAWALT’s exist. After all, I married one. Now, how common are they? That’s another question.

    P.S. I don’t write horror fiction, whoever keeps asking.

  160. Bee says:

    Sharkly,

    “Apparently no other “Jeff Strand” has done anything, even worth the notice of Google.”

    Google is not the only place to look. For business, I did a search at LinkedIn, I found over 500 entries for people named, “Jeff Strand”.

  161. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “Well today’s ‘alpha’ chad probably isn’t going to turn into the alpha provider with the heart of gold because your daughters knew how to turn him on yet shut him down. He’ll leave because he’s looking for sex and not marriage”

    In some cases, yes. And as the girl, your defense to that is to move on. Quickly. You don’t let him tie you up off the marriage market.

    But the VAST majority of go-getter, natural leaders, UMC young men will marry. You can ask Dalrock – almost all of these guys will marry at some point. And typically around the late 20’s, as they get more mature and settle into some career success, they start thinking about marriage and family.

    And that’s the perfect opportunity for a professional, well-spoken and well-behaving girl in her early 20’s, who has a good grasp of girl game, to lock him down. That’s the point I’m making.

    As opposed to your point (I think, but correct me if I’m wrong) that she should marry right out of high school, at 18, to a boy in her class (which means he’s also 18). I don’t agree with that strategy. I think she will do much better in her early 20’s, with a two year degree and working in a professional setting, to go after the UMC professional guy in his late 20’s…who’s on his way up in his career and starting to think about marriage. But being still under 30 (roughly), he’s not so old that he’s had time to get all bitter about women and want to go MGTOW. He’s still hopeful, and looking forward to marriage and family.

  162. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl –

    It occurs to me I should add this, you may find this info interesting. I said my wife has a four year degree, which is true. But she never went away to college. She took her college classes as a commuter, while living at home with her parents. And she was still living at home while we dated, and right up until the day we married, when we moved her into my house.

    So maybe that has some relevance. Since she didn’t get a chance to be “corrupted” by the typical four to six year “college experience”, lol.

  163. Jeff Strand says:

    P.S. During those years she lived at home, my wife also had a very strict Catholic mother watching over her the whole time, like a mother hawk. Keeping her out of trouble and taking her to Mass every week. So that always helps, lol.

  164. Hank Flanders says:

    Minesweeper

    @Hank,”For example, a friend of mine got tired of the dogs sleeping in the bed with them, so he and his wife slept in separate beds (actually, separate rooms). A mutual friend of ours asked him, “Why don’t you just say, ‘It’s either the dogs or me’?” He said, “I did.””

    thats hilarious !

    Yeah, the mutual friend who told me that and I shared a good laugh over it. Our friend with the dog problem later confirmed to me that it was true but claimed he had put a stop to it. However, I went over to his house earlier this summer, and his young daughter decided me a tour of the house, since I hadn’t seen it much since they’d moved in. Included in the tour was the room where “Mommy sleeps.”

  165. earl says:

    As opposed to your point (I think, but correct me if I’m wrong) that she should marry right out of high school, at 18, to a boy in her class (which means he’s also 18).

    It’s not.

    I’m saying your hypothetical might sound good in theory…but put into practice might not bring the desired results you think. They may not get married until they are 29.9999999999 or perhaps not at all.

    Just like it is also possible she could find a guy in her class she wants to marry at 18-19…and he makes something of himself because he’s got a good helpmate and he has the drive. It’s not like that scenerio is immediately doomed to failure just like your scenerio guarentees success.

  166. earl says:

    Earl, since I provided a pretty detailed synopsis of my dating and relationship history, feel free to do the same.

    Have had 3 girlfriends, I don’t know how many dates, seen plenty of my buddies and coworkers get decimated by terrible women either through divorce or general disobedience. Haven’t found any that have displayed over time they have helpmate skills or want to be my helpmate and I’ve lived in the conservative cornfields and a big city. Doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist…but that’s what men today have to wade through.

  167. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “Just like it is also possible she could find a guy in her class she wants to marry at 18-19…and he makes something of himself because he’s got a good helpmate and he has the drive. It’s not like that scenerio is immediately doomed to failure just like your scenerio guarentees success.”

    Yeah, I just think very, very few 18 year old boys are either interested in marriage, or ready for it. Not financially, not in terms of maturity, certainly not prepared to be a head of household and leader of his family. Nor do I think he even really knows who he is yet.

    I just don’t see it. So we will not agree here. Which just means that I’ll follow the path that I think best, and you can do likewise.

  168. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “Doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist…but that’s what men today have to wade through.”

    And yet the vast majority of young men WILL marry!

    That’s why I said on a previous thread that those of us in the ‘sphere should focus on encouraging the younger generation of men to avoid marriage to feminists. That’s doable, and by itself would do quite a lot of good. But if you start telling these guys just to never marry, or to hold out for a NAWALT but inform him that he’ll likely never find one, they’re just gonna tune you out. Again, the vast majority will marry anyway.

    Don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good. If there aren’t enough NAWALT’s to go around, at least get the word out for young guys to marry only non-feminists (anti-feminists would be even better). It’s a start.

  169. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Jeff Strand”
    It just seems to me like the two year course of vocational training, hopefully coupled with a two year degree, is the best path for a young lady.

    So long as she isn’t planning to marry a professional such as a lawyer or doctor, that may work out well. For example, an ultrasound tech might marry a police officer or communications tech. An administrative assistant or paralegal might marry a mid-level manager or high school teacher.

    All the actual UMC people I know of 45 married laterally. That’s how it is now, thanks to affirmative admissions of women into medical / law schools combined with female hypergamy.

    Because it’s not 1998 anymore.

  170. Swanny River says:

    AR,
    What you say resonates as a more accurate representation of how I see marriages also. So many profs marry other profs in my town. I know one girl from church married a doctor, but both grew up in our church and that was about 15 years ago.

  171. Minesweeper says:

    @Jeff Strand “And yet the vast majority of young men WILL marry!”

    they have no doubt done this previously, but the desire among young men is collapsing, maybe not for cohab or a gf\fb. but marriage looks like a poisoned chalice and they ain’t buying it.

  172. earl says:

    All the actual UMC people I know of 45 married laterally.

    This is why I ask Jeff if he even knows any of these people. Are UMC alphas in their late 20s looking to 1) marry and 2) marry the type of women who has the education/job he’s put out there. He has this theory…has he ever actually seen it happen in practice?

  173. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “He has this theory…has he ever actually seen it happen in practice?”

    Wow, guess reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Not only have I seen it happen in practice many times, I specifically mentioned a few examples in a prior post. The educational administrator/principal with two master’s degrees who married the x-ray tech, and I believe I also mentioned the dental hygienist who works two days a week and is married to a very successful professional who’s in the top income bracket nationally.

    Also I know a very successful surgeon, and his wife is a SAHM. And I know a successful airline pilot, who’s wife has a two year degree in cosmetology – now that she’s married to him and has kids, she no longer works at a salon, but freelances out of her house on certain days (mostly her clients are other moms and girlfriends, and her husband told me she makes like $1500 a month doing this). And I know of yet another dental hygienist, her husband is a friend of mine – he’s a real estate broker who makes about $400k annually (most of it passive income at this point) and lives in a 800 thousand dollar estate.

    So yep, it happens all the time. All these guys were happy to “marry down” to a good, attractive and sexy woman with sweet, feminine qualities. Remember, a lot of high achieving men DON’T WANT a dedicated career woman – I know I didn’t! They want someone who will prioritize taking care of the family.

    But having said that, “marrying down” has its limits – these kinds of successful, AMC guys are happy to marry a gal with a two year degree and specialized skills…but I don’t know any who wifed up a mere high school grad, working at a minimum wage job. From what I can see, that just doesn’t happen.

  174. earl says:

    Not only have I seen it happen in practice many times, I specifically mentioned a few examples in a prior post.

    Must have missed it.

    Did any of these marriages occur in the last 5-10 years?

  175. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Jeff Strand”
    these kinds of successful, AMC guys are happy to marry a gal with a two year degree and specialized skills…

    Sure, that happened…back in the 1980’s and into the 1990’s. We’re discussing the reality of marriage in 2018. All the upper middle class professionals I know under 45 are married to other professionals. That’s true for most of them under 50. Please note that I’m not on the coasts, I’m in flyover country.

  176. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Jeff Strand”

    Wow, guess reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

    Irony.

  177. Sharkly says:

    Bee,
    Thanks for trying to be a peacemaker.

    Even though my current situation is a bit like Job’s was, like Job, I could AMOG about my past and put others to shame if they had any normal humility in them. However, I’ll refrain, because it sets a bad example, it is unbecoming, and because of my sons and the court stuff I’m currently going through, I don’t need to dox myself here. Plus I need to learn to exercise more humility while I am made low, it is the easiest time to unlearn some of my “natural Alpha” pride, and learn to show others greater respect as fellow men.

    I do however find fault with Jeff’s posts. It appears that he looks back upon his days of sexual immorality as some sort of badge of honor, or as the high point of his existence. It is his “proof” for his claim to being Alpha, along with the money he has slaved after, and his NAWALT wife stories. I’ve got little respect for those who claim to be Christians, yet like Lot’s wife, look longingly back upon their life in Sodom. You can hear it in their stories. My own wife seems to resent her Christianity for having pulled her off the cock carousel. However Like Turd Flinging Monkey recently said, she hit the wall and was getting “kicked off” the cock carousel when she suddenly “found Jesus” and decided to leave the carousel. I was a rich and successful guy who had been too focused on becoming a pillar of the upper echelon of this current world. So in a lot of ways I’ve had some of Jeff’s mindset. I too thought it was all me, even though it all came easy, as I was a “Natural Alpha”. I too couldn’t understand why it didn’t come easy to everybody, and thought they were all either lazy or stupid,or both, for not being like me. Unlike Jeff, however, I had an underlying fear of God that I was imparted from my father(A man who was both extremely Alpha and extremely moral) I didn’t need to have validation sex with loose women, or debauch virgins, I was plenty arrogant and without such a need for external validation. And yes I had some incredibly hot women blatantly offering me sex then, and even today still in spite of my humbling circumstances. However, like Dalrock points out, while society and the churchians have decided that the ability to generate tingles is a virtue, or the proof of virtue, I’m not buying it. We’re wiser than to believe that now having Christ and his Red Pilling word. We should act like we believe it, and sound like we believe it. We should glory in our servitude to Christ, as much as we expect our wives to glory in their subjection to us. We should count the past as filthy rags.
    I’m going to perhaps set off a shitstorm by saying this, but here goes:
    Women today are almost completely degenerate. And that is partly the fault of the stronger vessels. Like Turd Flinging Monkey says; we need to take their options away. We need to kill the 450 prophets of Baal. We needs to beat the White Knighting manginas in the church, with a rod of iron, until they learn. We as Christian men need to put a stop to women’s impudence. We can’t wait for the Muslim’s to do our Job. Nor can we sit around wringing our hands about how the women are choosing to be this way by themselves. What are we doing about it? The Godly system our Godly forefathers set up has been fully corrupted. Do we try to preserve it out of tradition? Do we try to just vote against the majority of voters in a democracy? We either need to go somewhere with better government, or pull down some government where we can be reasonably assured of creating a better one in its place. Because right now the laws will not allow us to do what needs to be done to reform society and save our families. We have been legally emasculated. Even Strand. He is free to be a whore, but not free to be a man of God. If any man were to stand up and be a truly “toxic” man of God, they’d be persecuted and imprisoned or killed. Jordan Peterson mentioned that there is no mechanism in our current society to correct a crazy woman. You go to jail for bitch slapping them. Once upon a time you could, and society was much more moral and civil. Even shaming them is now verbal abuse. Satan has destroyed our nation, and we have yet to begin to fight. If Islam wins, we’ll be forcibly exterminated, our Bibles burned, our property stolen. If Feminism wins, well look around you, see what is happening. For the love of God we have no choice but to fight somewhere for the cause of Christ. And the shit is pretty bad when you need a “half Mennonite” to tell you it is long past time to fight.
    I don’t know what to do yet, but we don’t need to sit here while some guy brags of his immorality, and tells his daughters to not begin fornicating until she is given a pricey diamond, all while claiming to be a follower of Christ. Strand, I respect men of God, but you’ve got some growing up to do in the faith, if you are in the faith. Respect isn’t something that you earn, as you know if you’re Naturally Alpha, it is something you’re due, but you make it more difficult for me to give it to you when you behave like a doubleminded man. I can’t respect much of your character, I can only respect some of your ways, like your hard work and thrift, you’re advice is mostly pointless as OKRickety pointed out, and I’m stuck just giving you the most basic respect due to any man. Some humility would go a long way. You also don’t need to react to every insult, you’re Alpha remember. Don’t get baited into declaring yourself an immoral “Panty Peeler”. Act as if you realize that God says “By your own words I will judge you”. Some arguments can’t be won, have the good sense to spot them and leave off. You can’t prove you’re Alpha, by getting defensive about it, it doesn’t work that way. Just be who you are, and try to change who you are to be more like Christ, who never stooped to panty peeling, and taught us that lust is unholy sin. Solomon also taught us that Panty Peeling was just vanity. Our lives are mostly in vain, they are but an entrance test for our eternity, only what is precious to God will not be burned up. Don’t fail. And instead lay up treasures for yourself in heaven, an eternal kingdom where we won’t have to fix anything that is wrong. Don’t slave to be the rich guy who can scarcely be saved, or the whoremonger who has no inheritance in that kingdom. Become a servant of Christ, it is your highest possible achievement as a man in this world.

  178. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “Did any of these marriages occur in the last 5-10 years?”

    Some did. Most all of them within the last 15 years.

  179. Jeff Strand says:

    Sharkly,

    Some good advice there, thanks. And don’t worry, my days as a “panty peeler” with anyone but my wife are long over – I’m happily married to my NAWALT for many years now. Taking on a mistress is not something I’m looking to do…although I have the resources to easily have a “kept women” on the side (and some women are looking for this exact arrangement). But how could I then worthily receive the Body and Blood of the Lord? So no, I’m not going to go down that path.

    God bless.

  180. James K says:

    The tendency to marry later is demonstrated by the figure. Nevertheless, it does not apply to everybody. Even in 2017, more than 30% of men had been married by 28.

    Anonymous Reader said:

    Pick one example: medicine.
    The local medical school has a plurality of women, possibly a slight majority in the first year. Their hypergamy will not allow them to marry down. Women tend to go into pediatrics or family medicine, so they will aim for other doctors such as specialists (cardiac surgeons would be one high flier). On the male side, why should a man marry a nurse or even a PA / NP when he could marry a pediatrician who is likely to earn more?

    Lateral marriages within the professions – doctors marry other doctors, dentists marry other dentists, lawyers marry other lawyers – is so common that it has even been commented upon in the lame mainstream press. Regretfully I haven’t press links handy.

    I agree that this is a modern trend. However, amongst the men at medical school, there will be some who do not want to marry one of their professional peers – her long hours, the difficulty of a couple finding specialized work in the same town, and the feminist tendencies of women medical students are all factors that will discourage some men from “lateral marriage”. Some male medical students will prefer to marry a woman who will be a SAHM, and for them, a paramedic with a 2-year degree may be a good choice.

    Not everybody has to follow the most popular trend.

  181. Bee says:

    Sharkly,

    “Thanks for trying to be a peacemaker.”

    I was not trying to be a peacemaker. I was trying to be thorough and accurate. A man can be a well paid executive and not show up in a Google search.

  182. Kevin says:

    @AR and Novaseeker

    As I said above I completely agree – professionals marrying professionals is now the norm. AR – the only thing I would modify is that there is no reason to wait to have kids. Just have them young and figure it out. Kids are mostly a time commitment. Moneywise pretty cheap.

  183. Novaseeker says:

    Kids are mostly a time commitment. Moneywise pretty cheap.

    Hmm.

    Most of the UMC professional couples I know do not find them to be cheap. That’s because of education primarily (i.e., desire to live in the best school districts, which is never cheap, or private school, which is also never cheap). Professional couples usually don’t want to skimp on that. Also enrichment and summer things generally get very expensive for the professional set as well. This is one of the main reasons UMC professional couples generally wait to have kids, even when they are married in the 20s.

  184. Kevin says:

    @Nova

    Let me rephrase … kids are as cheap or expensive as you want them to be. But given the range of experiences that you can provide its ok to have them young when you lack resources. At that point the people going to law school or dental school people cannot afford all the care the UMC families will eventually give them, but they can provide for them all the things that really count, the necessities of life and love. The problem is mainly in their heads because they think kids need all that stuff to continue in the UMC.

  185. PokeSalad says:

    Most of the UMC professional couples I know who spend a country’s GNP to keep up with the Joneses do not find them to be cheap.

  186. Novaseeker says:

    Kevin, Poke —

    Yes that’s true, but it’s in the nature of dual professional UMC couples. They generally tend to be keeping up with Joneses types who are strivers — not “simple living” types. You generally don’t become upper middle class if you aren’t a striver who is quite motivated by materialism and riches in a competitive sense — because it isn’t that easy to get there. That’s my point.

    There are middle class people who so that — perhaps a reporter married to a nurse. Both professionals, but not enough income to be upper middle class. But dual lawyer/exec/doc/engineer couples generally tend to not be “live simple” types by definition. They also have high marriage rates (although marry later because, again, establishing career for financial/material base is a core value in this group) and almost all have children, but they do it the late and expensive way, rather than the early and “simpler living” way.

  187. Jeff Strand says:

    James K: “Some male medical students will prefer to marry a woman who will be a SAHM, and for them, a paramedic with a 2-year degree may be a good choice. Not everybody has to follow the most popular trend.”

    Thank you, that is the point I was trying to get across.

    Just want to add, such a situation as you mention has an inherent stability, as it satisfies the woman’s innate hypergamy. The X-Ray tech or physical therapist married to the doctor, the legal secretary married to the attorney, the flight attendant married to the pilot, the dental hygienist married to the dentist…in all these cases the woman can feel comfortable and satisfied that she has “married up” and has satisfied her hypergamous drive.

    So this is a case of harnessing something we usually condemn (female hypergamy) and using it for the good. In much the same way that the invention of patriarchy harnessed male initiative, drive, competitiveness, violence, etc….and turned it to the benefit of women and children.

  188. Novaseeker says:

    the legal secretary married to the attorney

    This doesn’t exist any longer though. It barely existed when I started practicing law in the early 90s (was like 10-15% of lawyer marriages then, almost all of those older lawyers at the time — i.e., guys who are either dead or very old now). Today it doesn’t exist. I have worked in law firms and in-house for 25 years now — I have never met anyone my age or younger who is a lawyer and who is married to a secretary or paralegal. Doesn’t happen. It isn’t accepted in the social and professional peer group any longer, both men and women. What you sometimes see is lawyer married to professor or reporter or something like that which is front line professional (not “support” line), which may not make as much money and may have flex hours. But marrying across SES lines like that — I haven’t seen it — either in NYC or in DC. I dunno what happens in flyover, maybe it’s more common there.

  189. Jeff Strand says:

    Nova,

    Well then it’s even more ridiculous for the high school (only) grad – working an unskilled, minimum wage job – to try to lock down a successful, professional, UMC husband. Which is truly something that it seems to me virtually never happens. Which is the point I was trying to make to Earl at the beginning of this whole conversation.

    Because while I don’t question what you’ve experienced in the realm of the law, my experiences are different. If you will quickly review my post at 9:09 pm on Sept 1, you will see a number of examples that I am personally familiar with.

    Like James said, there are a certain set of UMC professional men who aren’t seeking a hard-charging career woman. They are looking for a woman who is somewhat softer and more feminine. Someone willing to put her career on hold, either temporarily or permanently, in order to focus on husband, family, children, and running a household. For men with such desires, a match of dental hygienist to dentist, or X-Ray technician to doctor, may well be “just what the doctor ordered.” As a bonus, as I pointed out in my last post, she gets her hypergamous drives satisfied. Win – win for everybody.

    For all these reasons, I will encourage my daughters to continue their education after high school. But I will NOT encourage them to get into a life-commitment career like doctor or lawyer. Rather, I will encourage them to get a two year degree in a field that will place them in a professional setting, once in the workplace work on displaying desirable feminine qualities and having good “girl game”, and look to “marry up” by locking down the successful, Alpha, UMC professional that they encounter in their professional setting. Marry him, be his NAWALT, bear his children, and live happily ever after.

    Look, I’m the first to admit there are no guarantees in life. All we can do is use our heads and play the odds. But this strategy makes sense to me. It’s what I would do if I were a young lady. And so it’s what I will encourage my girls to do. I would hope everyone here would wish me the best in this, on behalf of my daughters, even if they find my reasoning faulty. Certainly, my intentions are good.

  190. Kevin says:

    @Strand

    If this is your plan for your daughter than you probably need her to hit a higher level professional for it to work. Also, as others have pointed out alpha is used 500 different ways in the manosphere, but most UMC males outside of maybe lawyers, surgeons, or CEOs and small business owners on average are not “alpha” in the sense of sexy dominant males, they are betas who make a lot of money and likely make great husbands reliable husbands. But a Christian man only needs to be “alpha” to one woman so it may work out fine.

    @Nova
    I agree with everything, but my comment was to the proposal by someone to marry the male dentist before they were a dentist and then wait to have kids until they were a dentist. I was simply saying its not necessary to wait – you can have kids before the big income change and do fine. This will not play out for most, but for Christians who marry younger it would work out fine.

  191. earl says:

    Which is the point I was trying to make to Earl at the beginning of this whole conversation.

    Yeah I get it you don’t want them ‘bottom of the barrel’ but you also don’t want them ‘at the top’. I personally though wouldn’t mind finding any woman ranging from a Denny’s waitress to one with a higher paying job who has helpmate/homemaker/wants to be a mother skills as her characteristics…because those are more rare to find.

  192. Novaseeker says:

    Like James said, there are a certain set of UMC professional men who aren’t seeking a hard-charging career woman. They are looking for a woman who is somewhat softer and more feminine. Someone willing to put her career on hold, either temporarily or permanently, in order to focus on husband, family, children, and running a household. For men with such desires, a match of dental hygienist to dentist, or X-Ray technician to doctor, may well be “just what the doctor ordered.” As a bonus, as I pointed out in my last post, she gets her hypergamous drives satisfied. Win – win for everybody.

    The way I have seen this play out isn’t doctor/nurse, and lawyer/paralegal. It’s surgeon with part-time pediatrician, law partner with public interest lawyer. The women are just as educated and have the same profession but they either don’t work in the “hard charging” part of the profession, or are willing to downshift. For example, I knew a woman lawyer who was married to a law partner who first moved from law firm (very long hours) to in-house, to part-time when kid1 came along, to no working at all when kid2 came along. But she was still a lawyer — he didn’t marry a paralegal. I’ve seen the same with my friends who are docs. Their wives are docs but not “hard chargers” — they work a part-time practice a couple of days a week in pedes or gyn or some other speciality and see a limited number of patients. But they aren’t nurses.

    The number of slots for paralegals to marry lawyers and nurses to marry docs is very, very small — again, at least on the East Coast it is.

  193. Anonymous Reader says:

    James K
    I agree that this is a modern trend.

    Exactly. This IS the reality.

    However, …

    Not everybody has to follow the most popular trend.

    This OUGHT to be true.

    Describing reality (descriptive) is not a value judgement, it is simply an observation. Nova and I are describing what is clearly visible in the UMC world of 2018.

    Assuming that something else OUGHT to be true is risky. One can put money on the table in Vegas and bet that two fair 6-sided dice will roll a 3 or a 11, but the odds are against it.

    As I already pointed out, a woman who wants to marry a professional such as a dentist, doctor, attorney but who isn’t up to dental / medical / law school should seek to marry a man before he goes to professional school. That’s not what “Jeff Strand” is pushing, though.

    Pretending that it’s still 1988 isn’t a good idea for men or women. It’s not realistic nor is it true, even if it OUGHT to be.

  194. Anonymous Reader says:

    Kevin
    I agree with everything, but my comment was to the proposal by someone to marry the male dentist before they were a dentist and then wait to have kids until they were a dentist.

    I pointed out that I personally know a married couple, they married before he went to dental school, they just moved back from [big city] to [flyover town] so he can join a practice here where their families are, and they do not yet have children. I shared this because “marry the doctor / lawyer / dentist before he’s in professional school” seems to be the most likely way for a woman to marry a professional without becoming one herself. Since I’ve actually seen this work, it has more credibility than “Jeff Strand’s” special moments of nostalgia.

    Yes, they do not yet have children. Perhaps they should have consulted you 5 years ago, but they did not.

    I was simply saying its not necessary to wait – you can have kids before the big income change and do fine.

    Gee, that’s great. Will you be there personally to help them? If so, then I have a married couple who would like to talk with you. If not, you’re handing out advice with no skin in the game.

  195. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Jeff Strand”
    The X-Ray tech or physical therapist married to the doctor,

    I know a few couples like this. All of them are over 60. They married back in the 1980’s.
    All the married doctors I know under 45 are married to other professionals.

    Your daughters, if they actually exist, are not likely to marry professionals.

  196. Jeff Strand says:

    @Nova: “The number of slots for paralegals to marry lawyers and nurses to marry docs is very, very small — again, at least on the East Coast it is.”

    Nova, very interesting observations. Thanks for the input from real life experience.

    What I take away from your comments is that, for my plan to have a decent chance of working, it will be even more important to emphasize attractive looks, sweet and feminine traits, NAWALT characteristics, and top notch “girl game”.

    Because my takeaway is that while you’re perhaps right that it’s not easy for a paralegal to marry a lawyer, or a dental hygienist to marry a dentist, it’s at least a possibility. But for a mere high school graduate, it’s a virtual impossibility.

  197. Jeff Strand says:

    @AR: “I know a few couples like this. All of them are over 60. They married back in the 1980’s.
    All the married doctors I know under 45 are married to other professionals.”

    Uhh, last I checked, X-Ray technicians and physical therapists ARE professionals. I already said I don’t see doctors or lawyers marrying the waitres at Denny’s.

    Perhaps you meant that all the married doctors you know married other doctors. And maybe this is indeed a trend. So I’m not arguing that. But you can’t tell me doctors ONLY AND ALWAYS ever marry other doctors. It’s not 100%

  198. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Jeff Strand”
    Nova, very interesting observations. Thanks for the input from real life experience.

    He’s pointed that out multiple times. Good that you finally got around to reading it.

    @AR: “I know a few couples like this. All of them are over 60. They married back in the 1980’s.
    All the married doctors I know under 45 are married to other professionals.”

    Uhh, last I checked, X-Ray technicians and physical therapists ARE professionals.

    Varies from state to state. However you are now splitting hairs. I question whether you are actually trying to debate in good faith.

    I already said I don’t see doctors or lawyers marrying the waitres at Denny’s.

    Strawman. Show me where I made such a claim. Again I question your intent, your good faith.

    Perhaps you meant that all the married doctors you know married other doctors.

    All the doctors under 45. Because the culture has changed since 1988; affirmative action requiring more women in medical school / law school / dental school, for a start.

    And maybe this is indeed a trend. So I’m not arguing that.

    It is a trend, even the press has noted that. It is a fact. You have been arguing against the facts for a while.

    But you can’t tell me doctors ONLY AND ALWAYS ever marry other doctors. It’s not 100%

    Another strawman.

    Not only have I not made such a foolish claim, I have specifically stated otherwise. However, the vast majority of people with advanced degrees such as engineering, law, medicine, etc. nowadays marry other people with advanced degrees. Because it’s not 1988 anymore. As Nova and I have been pointing out to you for days.

    What exactly are you trying to prove, “Jeff Strand”? What’s your goal?

  199. earl says:

    I think his goal is he doesn’t want his daughters to be Denny’s waitresses. How about a nice steakhouse? I’ve met some cute and friendly waitresses in that type of establishment.

  200. Novaseeker says:

    What I take away from your comments is that, for my plan to have a decent chance of working, it will be even more important to emphasize attractive looks, sweet and feminine traits, NAWALT characteristics, and top notch “girl game”.

    Because my takeaway is that while you’re perhaps right that it’s not easy for a paralegal to marry a lawyer, or a dental hygienist to marry a dentist, it’s at least a possibility. But for a mere high school graduate, it’s a virtual impossibility.

    It’s possible yes and certainly more than with a HS diploma only. But I’d stay away from any of the coastal cities or larger interior cities. You want smaller places which attract men who are already making different decisions from the most ambitious men to begin with.

  201. Anonymous Reader says:

    earl
    How about a nice steakhouse?

    Heh. Steakhouse…
    Once I worked on a contract with a couple of Computer Science grad students for a few months. One had an on campus job that he scheduled other tasks around. The other was a waiter at an upscale steakhouse, and he refused all on campus job offers. His answer was consistently “No way!” even though he had to drive about an hour from campus to job, or job to campus.

    Because as a waiter in an upscale eatery with regular clients who tipped every time, he was banking more money than any on campus job could pay. He had aspirations far beyond the restaurant business, hence the M.S. C.S., but he knew what his time was worth.

    No idea what sort of girl he married.

  202. feeriker says:

    In all this discussion surrounding assortative mating, it occurs to me that it would be very interesting to see whether “Christians” of either sex, if faced with a choice of “marrying down” with fellow believers or “unequally yoking” themselves to non-believers of their same socioeconomic stratum, would choose the latter, or not marry at all.

  203. Minesweeper says:

    @Dalrock, if you could overlay your graph at the top with the “current married” stats, things might be more clear, as the graph includes a one time trip up the las vegas alter that files for divorce next month as well as those sworn off it entirely.

    The thing about marriage nowadays really is that it has to be looked at in terms of divorce, as thats only when any terms apply. No promise she makes at the alter is ever enforced by law nor anyone else.

    @Jeff, you’ve obviously not been through your 1st wave of divorces yet from your age cohort. For those men who earn substantially more than their spouse, let me tell you its a blood bath of epic proportions for the man involved. Not only money, but they generally end up with their health ruined as well. Seems that withholding men from their children really does break their health – hence a unfortunate number of suicides on this very point.

    Any man with money should be very concerned, she will evaluate you against how much she can extract from you, is having your feet under the table worth more than $1M in the bank and your current house to her ??

  204. Liz says:

    Airline pilots marry stews all the time. Yes, in 2018.
    Just sayin’

  205. JRob says:

    It’s ok. Boundless will strengthen the signal, what with their unmarried director/man hating shrew. When she’s not quoting her mother who “says outrageous things.”

    https://www.focusonthefamily.com/about/media/lisa-anderson

    I actually made it through ten minutes of her bleating on Dennis Raimey’s radio show.

  206. feeriker says:

    Airline pilots marry stews all the time. Yes, in 2018.
    Just sayin’

    “Airline pilot” has nowhere near the status, nor, more importantly, commands anywhere near the pay that it did decades ago in the “glory days” before the airline industry was deregulated and cut-throat cost-cutting competition became lord of all. Airline pilots today, even those with years of experience as captains flying for major airlines, are treated as –and paid little better than– Greyhound bus drivers. It’s even worse for other flight crew. Thus the difference in status between pilot and stewardess (that latter a most un-PC term these days that, like the old glory days when air travel was associated with class and comfort, has been tossed onto the trash heap of history) is narrow enough nowadays that it’s equivalent to a cop marrying a teacher or a nurse; they’re in the same socioeconomic class. Also, airline pilot is one of the few –if not the last– traditionally all-male professions that hasn’t been invaded and co-opted by women in any significant numbers, meaning that there are no female “peers” for male pilots to marry. Not that they probably would anyway; women trying to be “one of the guys” by forcing their way into uncontestably masculine jobs are seen as either invasive nuisances, or, if they’re butch enough, as second or third-rate men, but never as objects of romantic attention.

  207. Liz says:

    An FO I know who flies for Southwest made 450k last year.
    It’s not unusual for a Captain flying for a major airline to make 500.

  208. Lost Patrol says:

    Boundless will strengthen the signal, what with their unmarried director/man hating shrew.

    Director of …….. is the complementarian way of saying woman pastor of …… They seem to think that is some sort of effective smoke screen but really just need to get on with assigning them the title they want.

    Look around for it and you’ll see this everywhere.

  209. Jeff Strand says:

    @feeriker: “Airline pilots today, even those with years of experience as captains flying for major airlines, are treated as –and paid little better than– Greyhound bus drivers.”

    Lololololollol!! (catches breath). Lololollololl!!

    I went to airline pilot pay.net to check for myself. For “those with years of experience as captains flying for major airlines” I looked to see what a 12 year captain on the Airbus 320 (only a narrowbody, keep in mind) at United makes. As of Jan 1, their contract has them at $285 an hour. A typical pilot, from i what I understand, will work somewhere between 900 and 1200 hours a year, depending on how much he wants to fly.

    So right there, in straight salary, he’s pulling down around $300k. But their contract also requires the company to put 15% of salary into the pilot’s 401k….so that’s another $45k right there! Plus full benefits (for his whole family) – full medical, dental, paid vacation, legal, life insurance, early retirement, etc. And the rest of the big airlines are similar. The only negative I could find is that pensions for airline pilots largely went away in the aftermath of 9/11, and don’t appear to be coming back.

    Care to post the pay and benefits of a Greyhound bus driver?

    Stop and think next time, before you post something to embarrass yourself this badly.

  210. Jeff Strand says:

    @Minesweeper: “Any man with money should be very concerned, she will evaluate you against how much she can extract from you, is having your feet under the table worth more than $1M in the bank and your current house to her ??”

    There’s risk for sure, our one-sided laws make sure of that. Yet most young men will still choose the route of marriage and family – what’s their alternative? MGTOW is, and will remain, a fringe movement…as Dalrock can easily confirm for you with his Census marriage data.

    Moral of the story: be very careful whom you choose to marry. Ideally you want to marry a NAWALT, but at the very least eliminate from consideration any self-described feminists. This will boost your odds considerably.

    Also, the odds for divorce as not as high as you think. For marriages that meet the following requirements – first marriage for both, both are white, both have at least a 4 year degree, the wife has reached at least her 25th birthday by the time of the wedding, and their first child is conceived within wedlock – the lifetime divorce rate is only 10%. This means that 90% of these marriages make it. Not bad odds.

  211. Liz says:

    A few years back the airlines had a major crisis and a lot of pilots were laid off or suspended. The remaining ones had their pay cut in half. So it’s not an uncommon perception that’s it’s still that way. I was working as a floor nurse when we had a deluge of newbies…who were Newbies getting back into nursing after their pilot spouses took a big pay cut but they were used to be previous lifestyle. Anyway good news is it’s back now. In a big way (those salary scales don’t count holiday pay or time and a half). Best careers for longevity in those marriages (airlines actually did a survey of this, from what I’ve been told) is nurse or teacher or the SAHM. Never works out with the stews or other pilots. Anyway, that’s all I’ve got. have a great day

  212. Minesweeper says:

    @Jeff Strand says:”Yet most young men will still choose the route of marriage and family – what’s their alternative? MGTOW is, and will remain, a fringe movement…as Dalrock can easily confirm for you with his Census marriage data.”

    no they wont, plenty are find nowadays with FB’s\tinder or cohab. your not reading the marriage data correctly – it counts even a 1 day marriage of which i’ve known of them 😀 !

    “Ideally you want to marry a NAWALT” – i don’t think you understand that word in the way its meant to be used.

    “Also, the odds for divorce as not as high as you think. For marriages that meet the following requirements – first marriage for both, both are white, both have at least a 4 year degree, the wife has reached at least her 25th birthday by the time of the wedding, and their first child is conceived within wedlock – the lifetime divorce rate is only 10%. This means that 90% of these marriages make it. Not bad odds.”

    You got some stats to back this up ? I’m sure we will all be very interested, considering whats happening on the field isn’t that. From my (limited experience) of 24 couples from our social group, the divorce rate was 50% after 11 years – this was for cardiologists, consultants etc The only communality was that the women initiated separation in each family right on cue – when their youngest was 5 or 6 and at school during the day, it was time for momma to break the hell out !

  213. earl says:

    Yes there are some things that indicate marital success like the color of the skin suit, sheepskins, keeping kids in wedlock, and how many times they’ve gone around the sun in their life….but it seems like the better indicator is if the woman actually wants to be married and stays married.

  214. JRob says:

    @Lost Patrol
    Director of …….. is the complementarian way of saying woman pastor of …… They seem to think that is some sort of effective smoke screen but really just need to get on with assigning them the title they want

    The best part of the show, Li$a said John Piper wasn’t just born like that, his wife made him the man he is.

    You can’t throw a stick without hitting confirmation about everything discussed here, theory or minutiae.

  215. JRob says:

    Nurses & teachers & SAHMs

    Not sure of airline research…In my limited sphere being around and working with scores of all three categories, they are heavy Frivorcey McDivorcers and cheaters. Personal experience, family, friends, etc.

  216. feministhater says:

    It’s the UMC bragging ‘just be like us’ bull again.

    She might not be monkey branching to another man but she is probably cheating on the side. So sure, your marriage is a success, well done. Have a cookie.

    She spent four years in college, getting that degree and fucking around, she has debt to pay and a career to start. She’s ready for that ring post 30.. at least she won’t divorce you though.

    Hey gents, carrying on the useless fight, this is boring shit.

    Besides, it’s an excellent way to organise the rest of society, it works wonders with single mothers..

  217. Jeff Strand says:

    Here’s some really interesting info on marriage and divorce rates and factors, if anyone is interested:

    https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/

    FH: for the umpteenth time, chill. No one wants to marry you and no one is pressuring you to take weddding vows. So there’s no need to be so defensive and angry. You don’t believe in marriage, we get it. Fine, don’t get married. Problem solved as far as you’re concerned.

  218. Jeff Strand says:

    @Minesweeper: “Ideally you want to marry a NAWALT” – i don’t think you understand that word in the way its meant to be used.

    Fine, then enlighten me.

    But if your definition implies that she be the PERFECT wife, partner, and mother….then I have to ask: Are you perfect?

  219. Minesweeper says:

    @jeff,”17. Over a 40 year period, 67 percent of first marriages terminate”

    https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/

    your right! very interesting. so only 1/3 make it past 40 years, looks about right.

  220. Minesweeper says:

    Looks like Jeff has already got his preferred divorce lawyers picked !

    “25. Wives are the ones who most often file for divorce at 66 percent on average. That figure has soared to nearly 75 percent in some years.”

    this is misleading, yes 75% who file but its 90% who want to initiate divorce, the missing 15% is men who (like myself) had to file+$$pay$$ for the $$divorce$ as part of her settlement as its an expensive business – if she paid SFA in the marriage why should she pay for her divorce ?

    about the one time in the marriage she did think straight.

  221. Opus says:

    I have yet to understand why Airline Pilots earn so much. I would say an International Lorry Driver (perhaps you don’t have those in the United States) having to keep his truck operative in the depths of a Russian winter (and live weeks on end alone in the cab) and then likewise in the deserts of Iraq and Iran has an infinitely harder job – dealing with the various languages, not being shafted by customs. If Airline Pilots are really earning half-a-million per annum then airline tickets are way too expensive. I dated two Stewardesses yet there was an earlier time when I thought that dating a flight attendant (cabin crew) would mean I would be dating a 7 or 8 or higher. That old play/movie Boeing Boeing is great.

  222. Opus says:

    I did not mean to imply I was dating two stewardesses at the same time (like Tony Curtis in Boeing squared) though my above comment might have suggested that.

  223. feministhater says:

    FH: for the umpteenth time, chill. No one wants to marry you and no one is pressuring you to take weddding vows. So there’s no need to be so defensive and angry. You don’t believe in marriage, we get it. Fine, don’t get married. Problem solved as far as you’re concerned.

    I will keep on advising men to leave marriage well alone and pointing out your absurdities for the umpteenth time + 1. Modern marriage is a sham.

    Wasn’t even talking about myself if you hadn’t noticed. I pointed out that your argument is the same one used by the elites. Just be like us. Doesn’t work for the majority chump.

    You mad bro?!

  224. Jeff Strand says:

    FH: “You mad bro?!”

    Not at all, why would I be? What more could I possibly ask for?

  225. earl says:

    “25. Wives are the ones who most often file for divorce at 66 percent on average. That figure has soared to nearly 75 percent in some years.”

    Looks like Minesweeper found that stat I was getting at with my best indicator if a marriage stays together.

  226. earl says:

    But if your definition implies that she be the PERFECT wife, partner, and mother

    How about one that wants to be married to you and doesn’t think about divorcing every 5 minutes because she’s blames her husband for her own personal unhappiness. That would be a start.

  227. feministhater says:

    What more could I possibly ask for?

    Some humility.

  228. Minesweeper says:

    @earl says:”Looks like Minesweeper found that stat I was getting at with my best indicator if a marriage stays together.”

    what stat is that ? that she dosnt initiate the whole thing ? well you can certainly see why in cultures where women can’t file easily or at all, the divorce rate is pretty low or non existent.

  229. Minesweeper says:

    Explains alot from Jeffs link above:

    “THE TOLL A DIVORCE TAKES
    109. A new study entitled “Divorce and Death” shows that broken marriages can kill at the same rate as smoking cigarettes. Indications that the risk of dying is a full 23 percent higher among divorcées than married people.”

    shocking !!

    JordanP describes divorce as equ to a mild case of cancer and will cost $250k over 10 years. Seems about right.

    It terms of marriage, I guess the juice is no longer worth the squeeze.

  230. earl says:

    ‘if you or your partner have been married before

    46. If both you and your partner have had previous marriages, you are 90 percent more likely to get divorced than if this had been the first marriage for both of you.’

    If at first you don’t succeed…DON’T try again.

  231. Minesweeper says:

    @earl, wonder what the stats are for widowed\widower.

  232. Minesweeper says:

    @Nick, that was good ! you can just hear the bullet ricocheting that he dodged. Their divorce would have been a belter. She sounds like BPD incarnate.

  233. Jeff Strand says:

    @FH: “Some humility.”

    LOL. You jealous bro?

  234. Jeff Strand says:

    @Earl: “How about one that wants to be married to you and doesn’t think about divorcing every 5 minutes because she’s blames her husband for her own personal unhappiness. That would be a start.”

    Can’t disagree with that!

    Before I got married, I told my wife not to ever expect for me to make her happy. I told her that’s not my job – no one else can make you happy. You’re either happy because of yourself, what’s on the insider, or not…a spouse can’t make you happy. Rather, my job is to be there for you to enjoy the good times with, and to lean on during the bad times.

    To this day she tells me how she’s never forgotten that, and how she took it to heart. She says it’s some of the best advice she ever got, and she will often give that advice to her married gf’s

    Another ground rule – divorce is not an option, it’s unthinkable. We rarely have a real argument or fight (probably average one every few years, and even less than that as we get older), but when we do have one, neither of us ever threatens divorce. If you find yourself getting that mad, just walk away and have some time apart until you both cool down.

  235. Nick Mgtow says:

    Minesweeper , she sounds like your typical Eat Pray Love reader… 2 months to go in South America by herself? I know what that means…

  236. Minesweeper says:

    @Nick, yes someone better warn them!

  237. Nick Mgtow says:

    Minesweeper, they don’t look like people who need a warning from her, or at least not anymore. If the groom’s family and her best friend backed out, then several others followed, rumors must have been running on her for a while. I guess they know what she is made of. I wonder what secrets the best friend is still witholding from the public.

  238. feministhater says:

    LOL. You jealous bro?

    No. You’re a blowhard. I do not envy your life. You need to learn some humility for your own sake.

    You’re just another voice I’ve never met; you’re boastful, condescending, arrogant and full of yourself.

    I’m not jealous of you Jeff, I just don’t like you.

  239. Liz says:

    “I have yet to understand why Airline Pilots earn so much.”
    Supply/Demand.
    They upped the mandatory retirement age to 65, which bought some time but all those old Vietnam era veterans are retiring now. Also, the USAF cut a lot of pilot training (and sequestration slowed the training and backed it up a lot…they have a lot of young pilots who want to train now, but few seasoned pilots available to train them, so it all gets backed up). Kind of a perfect storm that happened all at once and drove the demand up.
    Military is the best way to get into the job, because pilot training is very very expensive (the first two years of training a fighter pilot costs around ten million now). Takes a long, long time and great expense as a civilian to get those hours up. So, a lot of folks become instructors and then fly for the smaller commuter airlines which pay really low. Takes years and years to make it up to the majors. In the meantime, many of the commuter airlines are disreputable and they will “hook” pilots on their check rides so they have a black mark in their record and can never get hired with the majors.

  240. Oscar says:

    Anyone who thinks airline pilots should be paid less should first ask himself, “how competent do I want my pilot to be?”

    Ideally, pay is proportional to the employees level of responsibility. A 747 pilot literally has the lives of 416 – 660 people in his (and it usually is “his”) hands each time he flies. Asking why they get paid so much is like asking why surgeons get paid so much. There simply aren’t that many people with the aptitude for the job.

    How does an employer attract highly competent people? By paying them what their skills are worth. How much is your life worth to you?

  241. Minesweeper says:

    @Jrob, the comments are golden

  242. Minesweeper says:

    @Jrob, see thats why you need at least 1 man pilot per flight.

  243. earl says:

    see thats why you need at least 1 man pilot per flight.

    Or why outside of their children…women shouldn’t be places in such places of authority and responsiblility.

  244. Jeff Strand says:

    Now that you see how much airline pilots make, suddenly you guys aren’t laughing at my encouraging my daughters to become stews and marry a pilot, lol. And as Liz pointed out, pilots marry stews all the time. So that’s a very viable plan.

  245. Paul says:

    “A 747 pilot literally has the lives of 416 – 660 people in his (and it usually is “his”) hands each time he flies.”

    It’s customary for people to overestimate their job responsibilities, especially to justify why they should get paid more. It happens with “top managers”, doctors etc.

    To counter this: how many lives does a bus driver have in his hands each time he drives a bus? And how much live does the airplane service technician have in his hands each time he makes a critical repair? Or the designer of an airplane? It’s surprising to see how much airplanes deaths are caused by design flaws or careless servicing.

    Of course it is easier for people to put their confidence into a single daddy figure like the pilot is, than into the anonymous technicians and designers.

  246. Liz says:

    Be an airline pilot and get that easy, low-responsibility money, Paul.
    At best you’ll get rich, at worst you’ll learn something.
    Or you could just be the guy who complains and does nothing.

  247. Oscar says:

    @ Paul

    I asked several questions. Answer mine, and I’ll answer yours.

  248. Liz says:

    Just reading again, that post wasn’t quite as antagonistic as I interpreted it when I first got up.
    If the “daddy” bit at the end was left out, I would’ve probably just nodded in agreement.
    Lots of jobs have a high level of responsibility and are paid less well.
    It’s supply/demand, and yes, skill level. Right now there’s a shortage on experienced, skilled pilots. Much like being an NFL player, or prize boxer, it’s very difficult to make it to the majors and a lot of time and effort go into it.
    The majors pretty much pay those pilots for a very short time of trouble. But if there’s trouble, they need them.
    In a few decades pilots will be replaced by bots anyway.

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