What is off about Patterson’s “two black eyes” story?

Swanny River asks:

So if I am understanding you and Dalrock correctly, that third story, and Patterson, are complex because Patterson may be lying? That sounds like a leading question, but I do just want to see if I understanding what is being talked about. That is, I don’t understand why that third example is complex, but that could be because I didn’t listen to it.
He shouldn’t lie, if that is the case, but his accusers didn’t even care if he did lie, that is how strongly they feel about that excerpt. That is scary in its own right.

I don’t know that Patterson is lying when he tells that story.  All I know is that it strikes me as very improbable, at least in the way it is told.  However, my BS detector isn’t perfect.

Here is the excerpt in question, for reference:

I had a woman who was in a church that I served, and she was being subject to some abuse, and I told her, I said, “All right, what I want you to do is, every evening I want you to get down by your bed just as he goes to sleep, get down by the bed, and when you think he’s just about asleep, you just pray and ask God to intervene, not out loud, quietly,” but I said, “You just pray there.” And I said, “Get ready because he may get a little more violent, you know, when he discovers this.”

And sure enough, he did. She came to church one morning with both eyes black. And she was angry at me and at God and the world, for that matter. And she said, “I hope you’re happy.”

And I said, “Yes ma’am, I am.” And I said, “I’m sorry about that, but I’m very happy.”

And what she didn’t know when we sat down in church that morning was that her husband had come in and was standing at the back, first time he ever came. And when I gave the invitation that morning, he was the first one down to the front. And his heart was broken, he said, “My wife’s praying for me, and I can’t believe what I did to her.” And he said, “Do you think God can forgive somebody like me?” And he’s a great husband today. And it all came about because she sought God on a regular basis.

And remember, when nobody else can help, God can. And in the meantime, you have to do what you can at home to be submissive in every way that you can and to elevate him.

There are a number of aspects to the story that cause me to wonder if it really happened as described.  The biggest one is how glib Patterson seems when talking about a husband repeatedly punching his wife in the face when he found out she was kneeling in prayer.  This kind of thing creates a powerful visceral reaction in men, at least men in our culture.  I find it very hard to believe that Patterson witnessed such a thing and yet feels so detached and glib about it.  Along the same lines, there is (or was) a fairly common TV and film trope of using black eyes to represent off screen violence, very often in a glib or even humorous manner.  The character appears in the scene, revealing a tell tale black circle around their eye.  I assume it was used because it is easier to replicate effect wise than a busted lip, etc.  And if one black eye is funny, two are hilarious.  This seems to be much less common now than a few decades ago, but Patterson is older than I am so he would have been more exposed to it than I have been.

This glibness makes the charge more complex because I don’t think Patterson really feels so glib about wives being repeatedly punched in the face.  I think it is more likely an embellishment, something to enhance the story.  But I can understand why feminists would be disturbed by the glibness, even though I don’t think he really feels that way about real cases where women he knows are repeatedly punched in the face for kneeling in prayer.

Another part of the story that I find hard to swallow is the complicated machinations of the husband’s public-yet-unknown-to-his-wife repentance.  Somehow the husband managed to show up at the same church the wife worshiped at on the same Sunday she showed up sporting two black eyes, and repent in front of the whole congregation, yet she was totally unaware of this.  It is possible that she showed up late (or later), and didn’t notice that her husband was already there with a broken heart.  Or perhaps he went to the early service and she went to the later one, and all of the ladies in the congregation didn’t want to seem like gossips by mentioning it to her on her way in.  But either way a series of unlikely events had to have transpired to make this story into a humorous anecdote about how the wife didn’t know her husband had earlier that same morning publicly repented.

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84 Responses to What is off about Patterson’s “two black eyes” story?

  1. Pingback: What is off about Patterson’s “two black eyes” story? | @the_arv

  2. Toad says:

    What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?

    Nothing, she’s been told twice already.

  3. Dalrock says:

    @Toad

    What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?

    Nothing, she’s been told twice already.

    Exactly. The black eye as humorous reveal was at one time very common both in visual media and in story telling/jokes.

  4. Yerubilee says:

    Clearly, the husband came in and stayed in the back. The wife, facing forward, did not see him as she spoke with Patterson, who could since he was facing the opposite direction. Patterson could see the husband was ashamed of himself and yet he was present. The husband was under conviction of the Holy Spirit and Patterson wisely didn’t let on to the wife.

  5. Dalrock says:

    @Yerubilee

    Clearly, the husband came in and stayed in the back. The wife, facing forward, did not see him as she spoke with Patterson, who could since he was facing the opposite direction. Patterson could see the husband was ashamed of himself and yet he was present. The husband was under conviction of the Holy Spirit and Patterson wisely didn’t let on to the wife.

    That would be more believable. But it lacks the same dramatic punch, and more importantly, it isn’t the story Patterson told. In Patterson’s story, the husband had already publicly repented before Patterson spoke with the wife. That is why he was happy when she showed up with two black eyes:

    And she said, “I hope you’re happy.”

    And I said, “Yes ma’am, I am.” And I said, “I’m sorry about that, but I’m very happy.”

    And what she didn’t know when we sat down in church that morning was that her husband had come in and was standing at the back, first time he ever came. And when I gave the invitation that morning, he was the first one down to the front. And his heart was broken, he said, “My wife’s praying for me, and I can’t believe what I did to her.” And he said, “Do you think God can forgive somebody like me?” And he’s a great husband today. And it all came about because she sought God on a regular basis.

  6. Wayne says:

    I am not sure if Patterson’s story was entirely true to the fact, but I can believe that it’s based on a true story. I believe Patterson probably embellished the basic points in order to clearly illustrate the power of God, and how people are moved to repent.

  7. Dalrock says:

    Wayne

    I am not sure if Patterson’s story was entirely true to the fact, but I can believe that it’s based on a true story. I believe Patterson probably embellished the basic points in order to clearly illustrate the power of God, and how people are moved to repent.

    Yes. I believe the message/moral of the story, and the teaching he is using it to illustrate is on solid biblical ground. But the way the story is recounted is hard for me to swallow. And I can understand why his glibness would strike feminists as cruel and uncaring. So I’m left defending the message of a story I struggle to believe, and my defense of his seeming glibness is that I don’t think the story he is telling is really accurate.

    Put another way, it creates complexity.

  8. buckyinky says:

    Whatever may be the case with how things really happened in Patterson’s anecdote, we’re at least brushing up against the most important thing: Somewhere at some time, some woman suffered, and How Does This Affect Women?

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    Put another way, it creates complexity.

    Well, maybe. Frankly it reminds me of a modified fishing story. “There was this big ol’ bass down at the reservoir that all the fellers in the huntin’ and fishin’ club had been trying to catch, y’see, but they couldn’t. Nossir, they couldn’t do it! See, all of ’em were using the wrong bait, the wrong lure. Now, I make my own lures, y’see, and….” because Patterson inserts himself into the center of the story. It was his advice that made the difference. Plus since it is a modified fishing story, nobody is supposed to take every single one of the details literally. That’s part of the problem for the feminists, who grab the “two black eyes” and run with it in a fit of literal-mindedness.

    Not to mention – how many women in the last 30 years have actually walked into a Baptist church with two black eyes, and nobody called the cops? Really? Seriously? Now, maybe to people over 60 this story makes sense. To the people under 30 that Patterson might want to reach some time, with a “manUP” rant?

    “Cool story, bro…”

  10. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    In the 1950s, I Love Lucy had a black eye episode. Lucy had gotten a black eye by accident (Ricky threw a book to her, which she failed to catch). They joked about it. But the neighbors though RIcky had hit her.

  11. Damn Crackers says:

    The man should have realized you beat a woman with a bag of oranges so there are no bruises.

  12. Swanny River says:

    Considering the thorough and funny responses, I am glad I asked. I understand the complexity now, thank you.
    It’s too bad Patterson didn’t set that up as a hypothetical instead of a true story. Now he’s hung for glibness, or tone, instead of whether his advice as a biblical leader was biblically sound or not. Because as a hypothetical, it is penetrating. That is, “If this story unfolded in such a dramatic fashion, then would you see how it glorifies God and demonstrates the power of His Word?”

  13. ray says:

    Around 1970 the campaign to change America into a feminist nation began in mortal earnest, with a huge wave of propaganda across media, intel, government, academic, and related channels to demonize husbandly authority, and maleness in general.

    The spearhead of the feminist campaign was this particular issue of marital authority and power, and we began hearing constantly phrases like Domestic Violence, Spousal Abuse, Violent Patriarchy, and the lot we’re all so familiar with today. This was all new then, however.

    There were endless exposes, discussions, etc. concerning ‘battered wives’, very similar to the abortion campaign being run concurrently, which concentrated on shaming males and Christians with horror stories of back-alley coat-hanger abortions, and the extreme cruelty of the (lol) patriarchy in sustaining a culture of violence, predation, and war towards women and girls.

    Around then the teevee eunuchs (Phil Donahue etc.) began showing up, daytime shows aimed at females, leading to the many fem-prop staples now extant — The View, etc. The daytime shows combined with other sources of mass-manipulation to assure America that its men (and especially husbands) were sadistic thugs, and American women were blameless angels, innocent and at the mercy of brutes, supporting their brutal system of female-control.

    The rest, as they say, is herstory. :O)

    Seems like only yesterday . . . yet here we are today . . .

    http://www.breitbart.com/social-justice/2018/05/28/huffington-post-argues-that-only-men-should-go-to-prison/

    Don’t laugh. America, Canada, and UnGreat Britain are fairly close to adopting such a policy. Doubtless it will be implemented incrementally, sold as not only just, but cost-effective. Etc.

    Far as the OP goes, I didn’t have any problem believing such events could occur, however the story did sound a bit pat, or Hollywoodish. Ain’t judging tho.

  14. Apathetic or whatever says:

    Having grown up in a Baptist Church I thought this story didn’t pass the smell test when I first saw it.
    I have heard stories with which I was either present or even the protagonist distorted beyond recognition by a pulpiteer.

    The euphemism for lying in my circles was Evangelistically Speaking. There’s a well worn joke where a child queries his pastor father if “is that true or are you just preaching?”

    Did this story happen? I don’t know but I find it highly unlikely that it happened as reported by Reverend Patterson.

  15. dpmonahan says:

    Big sudden conversions do happen but this just comes off as cartoonish. Maybe it is the whole concept of “getting saved” as a one-time deal instead of a lifelong process. I’ve heard that Southern Baptists tend to emphasize keeping up appearances and fake happiness. In that case the audience would need to hear about a sudden dramatic conversion from wife-beater to man-of-God instead of a slow conversion from mild-asshole to not-an-asshole.

  16. StAugustine says:

    The implication is that the husband is such a raging tyrant that he punches her in both her eyes us ridiculous. However, it’s possible to get black eyes in a similar way: my elderly neighbors wife slipped and fell, hitting her forehead. Well, her forehead was pretty black and blue, but she also had two striking black eyes. People of a certain age bruise easily of course.

  17. Anonymous Reader says:

    @StAugustine

    If your elderly neighbor’s wife went to the E.R. it is certain she was taken to an examination room away from him and quizzed about her bruises for a few minutes, with specific questions such as “Did he hit you? Has he ever hit you? Did he twist your arm? Has he ever twisted your arm?” and so forth. That’s the protocol. Don’t take my word for it, ask any E.R. nurse. Furthermore, it’s been a Federal mandate since around 1994 – almost 25 years ago. It’s part of what makes Patterson’s fishing a “cool story, bro…” because he somehow missed social, political and legal changes in the world all around him for about a generation.

    Let’s add this line to Patterson’s story to make the point even clearer:
    “So the husband, he went and got into his brand new Ford Pinto, and he drove to the church….”

  18. stickdude90 says:

    even humorous manor

    The incident being described may have happened in a manor, but I think you mean “manner” here.

    [D: Aah! Thanks. Fixed.]

  19. Pingback: Patterson counseled rightly and apologized wrongly | Christianity and masculinity

  20. earl says:

    Somewhere at some time, some woman suffered, and How Does This Affect Women?

    If you ever notice…that’s always their justification for women taking a frivorce and elective abortions. It’s not the wildly abusive husband or pregnancy of rape cases that are the overwhelming majority of either…it’s the unhappy wife who doesn’t want to be married anymore that divorces and the slut woman who forgot pregnancy happens sometimes after sex that gets the abortion.

  21. Dalrock says:

    Yerubilee,

    Rereading your comment, I think I didn’t fully understand it at first (my apologies). If I understand it correctly (now), you are saying the husband stood at the back of the room starting before the services, through the whole service, and finally answered the invitation at the end of the service. Patterson saw the husband before the services started, the same time he spoke with the wife sitting in the pews. Patterson recognized the husband, even though the husband had never been to the church before, and knew that the husband was going to repent of hitting his wife, but chose not to point this out to the wife at the time.

    I don’t think it is impossible, but it still feels contrived. Moreover, there is still the problem with Patterson coming off as glib in relation to a wife being repeatedly punched in the face for kneeling in prayer.

    @Apathetic or whatever

    Having grown up in a Baptist Church I thought this story didn’t pass the smell test when I first saw it.
    I have heard stories with which I was either present or even the protagonist distorted beyond recognition by a pulpiteer.

    The euphemism for lying in my circles was Evangelistically Speaking. There’s a well worn joke where a child queries his pastor father if “is that true or are you just preaching?

    Hilarious! Thanks for the insight. This makes sense. Patterson’s other story from my previous post (about the teen boys commenting on the girl) gave me the impression that it was benignly embellished, but it didn’t seem odd to me that it would be so.

  22. earl says:

    @ Anon Reader

    Ok so the protocol is to ask if the flesh wounds came from a man…instead of asking…’how did the bruises happen?’

  23. Oscar says:

    @ dpmonahan says:
    May 29, 2018 at 12:17 pm

    “Big sudden conversions do happen but this just comes off as cartoonish. Maybe it is the whole concept of ‘getting saved’ as a one-time deal instead of a lifelong process.”

    Justification (“getting saved”) is a one-time, instantaneous event. Sanctification is a lifelong process.

    If you live a nice, middle class lifestyle, you don’t see a lot of “dramatic” conversions because most nice middle class people are – at least outwardly – basically moral. They’re called “middle class values” for a reason.

    When you live in poorer, rougher neighborhoods like I did growing up, you see a lot more of these “dramatic” conversions precisely because there’s a lot more crime, violence, substance abuse, spouse abuse, child abuse, etc. in those neighborhoods. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

    I’ve seen a violent, gambling, whoring drunk give up fighting, drinking, whoring and gambling instantly. The power of the Holy Spirit is absolutely real to me, because I’ve seen that transformation happen right in front of me. My kids have never seen that. Then again, my kids have never met a violent, gambling, whoring drunk.

  24. earl says:

    I’ve seen a violent, gambling, whoring drunk give up fighting, drinking, whoring and gambling instantly. The power of the Holy Spirit is absolutely real to me, because I’ve seen that transformation happen right in front of me.

    I don’t doubt that conversion…without the Holy Spirit and the grace of God…we’d all go down the gambling, fighting, drinking, whoring route.

  25. Kevin says:

    It creates a powerful reaction if your experience with it is rare. If you are a leader that sees many things over many years it becomes mundane and being unemotionally involved is easy.

    Seeing kids dying of cancer is traumatizing. Unless your job is working with kids dying of cancer. Than the feelings manifest but they are background noise experts easily sort through. As a leader he probably dealt with this enough not to be riled up about it. This is completely believable.

    I have no connection to Peterson but even if his story is a conglomeration of events fashioned into a teachable story (a parable even) it is a completely legimate process.

    Critisms of stories that cannot be disproven are pointless. No reason to assume the worst of others.

  26. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Re: ray’s Breitbart link:

    Huffington Post UK contributor Deborah Coles argued this week that prisons are ill-equipped to handle the complex needs of women.

    Ah, that’s why we should send female felons to prison. Prisons are not there to “serve the needs” of felons. Prison are there to “serve the needs” of the non-felon community, but keeping felons locked up. And to punish them. If prisons fail to “serve the needs” of felons, that’s a Good Thing.

    But leave it to a woman to imagine that prisons (like everything else) exist to “serve the needs” of women.

  27. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    Ok so the protocol is to ask if the flesh wounds came from a man…instead of asking…’how did the bruises happen?’

    Depends on the circumstances. IF there is a man somewhere in the picture, THEN some questions must be asked. Full stop. Federal requirement from VAWA if I remember rightly.

  28. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Around 1970 the campaign to change America into a feminist nation began in mortal earnest, with a huge wave of propaganda across media, intel, government, academic, and related channels to demonize husbandly authority, and maleness in general.

    Yeah. I remember TV movies and sitcoms dealing with the issue of “battered wives.” All in the Family, and Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman were two sitcoms with battered wives themes. I think some other of Norman Lear’s shows — One Day at a Time and Maude dealt with the issue. Rape was also a common theme.

    This was considered thematically ground-breaking, and it was. The 1970s sitcom was far more blatantly political and thematically “mature” than the innocent sitcoms of the 1960s. No rape or wife-beating episodes on Gilligan’s Island or I Dream of Genie or Petticoat Junction.

    Then there were all those TV movies that dealt with spousal abuse and rape, the most famous of which was The Burning Bed (based on a true story in which a battered wife burns her husband alive).

  29. Pingback: What is off about Patterson’s “two black eyes” story? | Reaction Times

  30. BJ says:

    As one who preaches regularly, this story really sounds contrived. Preachers really want that great story that highlights their point, so the temptations to twist or fib or even outright lie is strong.

    Having said that, truth really is stranger than fiction, so all they really need to do is read widely and pay attention. You don’t have to make up details or mislead to make a story good. You just have to have some creative imagination for how to tell the story. The problem is that pastors are taught in seminary how to read ancient texts and translate and understand history, among other things. Creativity is not usually emphasized.

    This one sounds too perfect and too dramatic. I can’t say for sure whether it is true or not, but my vote is that he took a true story about a repentant husband and set up the church drama in his telling of it.

  31. BJ says:

    @Oscar

    “I’ve seen a violent, gambling, whoring drunk give up fighting, drinking, whoring and gambling instantly. The power of the Holy Spirit is absolutely real to me, because I’ve seen that transformation happen right in front of me. My kids have never seen that. Then again, my kids have never met a violent, gambling, whoring drunk.”

    Let me just drop a hearty Amen! on this one.

    I’ve seen this, too, growing up in semi-rural Appalachia. Your point about the class differences is spot-on.

  32. ys says:

    Damn Crackers-
    Don’t beat a woman with a bag of oranges….she might be beat to a pulp.

  33. earl says:

    I think some other of Norman Lear’s shows

    He’s your classic example of a male feminist. The show Maude, with the uber feminist Bea Arthur, was reported based off his wife. Of course his story as a male feminist has a happy ending…his divorce settlement with her was reportedly in the 100 million range. Manginas, male feminists, and white knights never learn.

  34. Adpmonahan

    Big sudden conversions do happen but this just comes off as cartoonish. Maybe it is the whole concept of “getting saved” as a one-time deal instead of a lifelong process. I’ve heard that Southern Baptists tend to emphasize keeping up appearances and fake happiness. In that case the audience would need to hear about a sudden dramatic conversion from wife-beater to man-of-God instead of a slow conversion from mild-asshole to not-an-asshole.

    Further, this story being told by Patterson in this way tells me a lot about Patterson’s physical demeanor. He strikes me as one of the evangelically arrogant characters I’ve had displeasure of serving with in prison ministry over the years. He would be raising up and down on the balls of his feet, likely jingling coins in his pocket, and having lights reflected in his eyes like you see in cartoons when they are conveying an expression of childlike wonder. These types are clear to not suffer fools much, and everyone is a fool because he holds truths that you cannot ever grasp 100%. He keeps his sycophants at an asymptotic 99.9% and they crave his musings in hopes that one day he will move them from learning to learned.

    Oh, and he should have added that the repentant husband went on to kick significant amounts of ass as he enforced rules on husbands that were given by wives.

    “Man came home late? I’ll have a word with him mam.”

    “If he touches you again there ain’t no mountain high enough fer hidin’ his ass.”.

    I feel giddy just thinking about the Fountain of Lift that further narrative would have generated.

  35. SnapperTrx says:

    I just watched this entire series on DVD and there are soooo many things in there that could never happen in the modern age, namely Lucy constantly calling Ricky “sir” whenever she knew she had been caught in trouble. If something like that happened now the only reprimand she would have received would have been from the church ladies for being a doormat and daring to address her husband as such. As much as I love the show its a real wake up call as to how rebellious Lucy is and how that probably propagated into the culture. Though her antics and rebelliousness were part of the comedy, the next generation of women would be emulating her on-screen attitude. Eventually we end up where we are today. Sad.

  36. @Kevin

    Critisms of stories that cannot be disproven are pointless

    Tell that to a guy falsely accused of abuse therefore being prevented from seeing his children or returning to his home.

    Why exactly did you drop that passive aggressive value judgement into your comment anyway dude?

  37. @Kevin

    Critisms of stories that cannot be disproven are pointless

    Tell that to a guy falsely accused of abuse therefore being prevented from seeing his children or returning to his home.

    Why exactly did you drop that passive aggressive value judgement into your comment anyway dude?

  38. ray says:

    earl — “I don’t doubt that conversion…without the Holy Spirit and the grace of God…we’d all go down the gambling, fighting, drinking, whoring route.”

    Uh oh. I mean yes, yes, you are exactly right. :O)

  39. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    According to her Wikipedia page, Frances Lear had many red flags …

    * She was born to an unwed mother. (No father).

    * She was adopted by a couple. When she was 10, her adoptive father committed suicide.

    * Her adoptive mother remarried. When Frances was 12, her (new) stepfather began molesting her.

    * She married and divorced twice before her (third) marriage to Norma Lear.

    * At age 50, she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

    * She became an activist for the women’s movement, civil rights and mental health.

    * Her divorce settlement from Norma Lear was estimated at between $100 million to $112 million, one of the largest on record. She used $25 million to start Lear’s, a magazine targeting women over 45. The magazine folded six years later.

  40. earl says:

    According to her Wikipedia page, Frances Lear had many red flags …

    A successful feminist should have many red flags. With divorce and some personality disorder as her highest merits.

    But look at the path…no father, adopted father commited suicide, stepfather molested her. That’s the fruits of feminism.

  41. Oscar says:

    RPL,

    So, the most prominent men in Frances Lear’s life were absent, unreliable, or evil, and she projected that onto the rest of us. Thus, feminism.

    It’s the same old story, same old song and dance, my friends.

  42. CSI says:

    Any passionate public speaker is going to say something stupid or ill-considered at some point. If you’re going to just purge them from power without giving them a chance to apologize or explain, then you’re going to end up with only the blandest and most inoffensive in those roles.

  43. Gunner Q says:

    The only thing that really jumped out of Patterson’s story at me was that the woman was feral enough to seek out one replacement authority figure but not feral enough to seek out a second, like the cops. She must have a very strong emotional attachment to Patterson.

    Taking the story at face value, of course.

    Apathetic or whatever @ 12:14 pm:
    “There’s a well worn joke where a child queries his pastor father if “is that true or are you just preaching?””

    Good one!

  44. Coloradomtnman says:

    @Kevin

    “I have no connection to Peterson but even if his story is a conglomeration of events fashioned into a teachable story (a parable even) it is a completely legimate process.’

    This is the story of the Mormon experience and psyche captured in one sentence better than I could have said it myself!

  45. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Earl

    Had to check a bit, but here’s a story from my extended family. Back in the mid 1990’s an older woman in the family was taking meds that made bruising really easy. She fell in the house and bruised an arm and a leg. Her husband took her to an urgent care, where she was separated from him and interviewed in the way described above – “how did this happen” followed by “has he ever….”. Same woman a few years later fell down in her house this time cracking a bone, but now she was widowed so she called an ambulance. Because she lived alone there was man to potentially blame, so no game of 20 questions.

    This leads me back to the notion that any woman could walk into any Baptist church in North America with two black eyes, and no one said anything. No one took her to ER or urgent care, no one called the cops. Really? In what century?

    I call that kind of story telling pure doodley-squat. In the original sense, and I would say it to Patterson’s face.

  46. Anonymous Reader says:

    CSI
    Any passionate public speaker is going to say something stupid or ill-considered at some point. If you’re going to just purge them from power without giving them a chance to apologize or explain, then you’re going to end up with only the blandest and most inoffensive in those roles.

    Man, you have completely missed the boat on this. Go back and read the Dalrock articles on the CBMW’s founding. Get up to speed on who Patterson is and what he has done. Then read more carefully about his defenestration from the Fort Worth seminary. Read between the lines: this is a Who? Whom? situation. Who will dominate whom in the Baptist denomination? So far the Female Imperative as instantiated by feminism is winning.

    It’s not about “passionate”, it’s not about foolishness, it’s about feminist power. This is a similar game to the one the more hard left SJW’s use – rewriting / retconning history to use past actions that may have been normal at the time to condemn someone today. See Brandon Eich’s defenestration from Mozilla for a clear example.

    “Who, Whom?” is shorthand for a speech given by Lenin “Kto? Kogo?” and later taken up as a slogan by Stalin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who,_whom%3F

  47. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sigh. Italic fail. Only the first paragraph by CSI is supposed to be in italics. Shucks.

  48. Gunner Q says:

    Anonymous Reader @ 6:45 pm:
    “This leads me back to the notion that any woman could walk into any Baptist church in North America with two black eyes, and no one said anything. No one took her to ER or urgent care, no one called the cops. Really? In what century?”

    This is a good and convincing point.

  49. freebird says:

    Here’s what really happened and what really happens every time pastor moves to the next woman.
    He advises her to verbally antagonize her husband with out-loud-“prayers to God”
    That reveal to husband Patterson is on his wife’s mind, in his bedroom,before sleeping.
    Husband realizes he’s been amog’ed good by that preaching devil and beats the cheating bitch.
    (Sin in mind is sin indeed) Jimmy Carter
    Wife goes to patterson next day while husband gets drunk and leaves area to avoid The Cops.
    Patterson puts his “Pope hat” In wifey’s uterus calls to “God” are heard through the neighborhood.
    Next week new bitch to pork.
    fin

  50. RichardP says:

    It seems there was some advantage to being John the Baptist – or even Paul. Speak God’s truth freely and fearlessly, as they had no empire that they could lose funding for. Not the case at all with modern religeous empires – where preserving the cash flow must have priority over preaching the truth – as the means of preaching will disappear if the cash flow disappears. Don’t think John the Baptist and Paul had that problem.

    The connecting factor between Starbucks and the SBC is each is reacting swiftly to make the story disappear. From the standpoint of preserving the customer base, hence the cash flow, that is exactly the right approach to take. I wonder if God is proud of their quick thinking.

  51. Swanny River says:

    Convincing to me also, especially considering others probably would have known her, according to Patterson. I previously said I like what Patterson said, it terms of his general points, but I had forgotten about his interaction with CBMW and his wife’s efforts. Still, he is more forceful and sound on submission, IMO, than my pastor and many other popular ones.

  52. Oscar says:

    @ RichardP says:
    May 29, 2018 at 7:50 pm

    “It seems there was some advantage to being John the Baptist – or even Paul. Speak God’s truth freely and fearlessly, as they had no empire that they could lose funding for.”

    They had nothing to lose but their heads.

  53. Jack Russell says:

    StAugustine says:
    May 29, 2018 at 12:23 pm
    The implication is that the husband is such a raging tyrant that he punches her in both her eyes us ridiculous. However, it’s possible to get black eyes in a similar way: my elderly neighbors wife slipped and fell, hitting her forehead. Well, her forehead was pretty black and blue, but she also had two striking black eyes. People of a certain age bruise easily of course.

    She has what is called “Raccoon Eyes”, Usually happens to anyone who has hit their head hard. Other signs are spinal fluid leaking from the ear. As one who has had a concussion before, when you regain consciousness you are not in the best position to answer questions. YMMV.

  54. seventiesjason says:

    Exactly Ocsar……….Paul and others went into Greece with its staggering intellectualism, Rome and its empire of indulgence and paganism…………….simply put, he and others TURNED THE WORLD UPSIDE DOWN.

    With all our mega-churches, traditions, press, the Internet, podcasts, history, money, means, battered women shelters, video camers in the pews in some churches so parents can see the childrens room, sunmmer camps, retreats, fellowships, bible studies, youth activities, Bible colleges, seminaries, you name it………

    It’s out of touch. It’s all of this other stuff. John Wesley only preached TWO sermons in the last years of his life inside a church of over 600. Christ didn’t bring “Methodism” He raised John Wesley.

    Christ didn’t raise up The Salvation Army. He raised up William Booth.

    Churches on every corner. Bibles everywhere…………..yet, yet…………..millions of hearers and very little DOers of the Word.

    It’s no wonder Protestanism is in the state it is in. I feel zero pity or pain, or disdain. If we are not in the last days,….we’re moving towards them quickly.

    This was my call into Christ and protestantism. Perish the thought if I be one of the few man that strives to this:

    “Not called!’ did you say? Not heard the call,’ I think you should say. Put your ear down to the Bible, and hear Him bid you go and pull sinners out of the fire of sin. Put your ear down to the burdened, agonized heart of humanity, and listen to its pitiful wail for help. Go stand by the gates of hell, and hear the damned entreat you to go to their father’s house and bid their brothers and sisters and servants and masters not to come there. Then look Christ in the face — whose mercy you have professed to obey — and tell Him whether you will join heart and soul and body and circumstances in the march to publish His mercy to the world” -William Booth 1867

  55. YoreyC says:

    Never let the truth get in the way of a useful parable.

  56. I’m with Dalrock here, the story is a lie. Men give other men black eyes. You hit a woman that hard she is in the hospital or far worse. There is nothing I believe about that story, not one thing.

  57. Anon says:

    OT :

    Whoa, the numbers are rising, even as word of this scam has been out for a while.

    Woman in Canada loses HK$6M (about $1 million US$) to online Romance scam.

    Toronto woman loses $1.2M to online romance scam.

    Miami area woman loses $1M to Nigerian romance scam.

    A married couple simply could not be defrauded like this.

    P.S. Game obviously works.

  58. Anon says:

    OT :

    Whoa, the numbers are rising, even as word of this scam has been out for a while.

    Woman in Canada loses HK$6M (about $1 million US$) to online Romance scam.

    Toronto woman loses $1.2M to online romance scam.

    Miami area woman loses $1M to Nigerian romance scam.

    A married couple simply could not be defrauded like this.

    P.S. Game obviously works. If this level of psychological persuasion is possible online, then a novice who has no such nefarious purpose can obviously seduce a woman with Game.

  59. CSI says:

    The story isn’t a lie, its a parable. But it seems even a poor-taste parable is enough to get you designated as a Tick on the Underbelly of the Church and purged from office.

    “Read between the lines: this is a Who? Whom? situation. Who will dominate whom in the Baptist denomination? So far the Female Imperative as instantiated by feminism is winning….
    It’s not about “passionate”, it’s not about foolishness, it’s about feminist power. ”

    You’re right, its a push to have all positions of power filled by women or their inoffensive male feminist allies.

  60. feministhater says:

    P.S. Game obviously works. If this level of psychological persuasion is possible online, then a novice who has no such nefarious purpose can obviously seduce a woman with Game.

    Does deceiving a person work? Yes. Does one want to do this for the rest of their lives? No.

    This is a problem you refuse to consider. Game works on sub par women like those above exactly because they are broken and looking in all the wrong places. They will shatter perfectly good families for the mere chance at romance, thus showing just how little worth it is investing time, money and effort into appeasing or pleasing women, especially in a marriage environment.

    For a scam artist to extort money from such women is a money maker, it is not a family maker. It is proof of the fallen nature of women, not of the worthiness of game.

    Sure, game works to the extent that it allows you to con money or pussy out of women who do not value family, morality, commitment or sacrifice. A PUAs wet dream, a Christian man’s nightmare. Nigerians also con money out of old people with stupid scams consisting of pretending to be a long lost relative who happens to have millions of dollars lying around just waiting for this old person to redeem if only they would send a couple hundred dollars now to allow for a transfer… desperate people do stupid shit.

    Furthermore, over the internet one can pretend far more convincingly than in person. They are called con ‘artists’ for a reason, there is an ‘art’ to their play, most people do not have such a temperament to pull off such deceptions.

    It just shows that money is worth little to women and that they have far too much to burn if they are willing to part with it on the mere hint of romance, spending hubby’s hard earned ‘divorce raped’ money without a second thought.

    According to police, the scammer played the role of a retired American businessman who lived in Malaysia and sent the woman a photograph of a white man in his 50s to bolster the story.

    After gaining her trust, he claimed he had HK$100 million [US$12.8 million] in assets that was frozen by authorities in Malaysia because he failed to pay legal and tax-related fees.

    He then sought help from her to pay the fees with the promise of the re-payment once the asset could be transferred out of the country.

    They will believe anything it seems – that’s called desperation.

    He said his name was Eric Cole, a British widower with one son, Talk2Me55 claimed. He had a PhD in education, traveled widely and lived a life guided by his Christian faith, a critical attribute for Debby, a Mormon whose husband had died five months earlier.

    In the office of her tidy home west of Lake Worth, she scrutinized his photo. It showed a tall, muscular, middle-aged man in a blue t-shirt, baseball cap and sunglasses.

    “So handsome,” she thought. Her friends agreed.

    “Debby was all giggly,” her best friend, Denise Rosenberg, remembers.

    During the next 22 months, Eric and Debby wrote each other almost every day.

    “It was incredible to fall in love again at my age,” said Debby. “It was like being 16 again. Over the months, he became my whole life.”

    She never suspected he would take more than $1 million from her in an online dating scam, then disappear somewhere in Nigeria.

    Take a look at the woman’s picture. Gaming a granny with love isn’t hard, if you have the stomach for it….

    In the physical realm, these con men would have to be the tall, handsome men with the PhDs in whatever who did all of the above in reality, rather than the con man living in Nigeria pulling a scam. Far harder to pull off in real life and for an extended period of time. The distance and the internet help these men pull off these scams, it doesn’t show that it is easier to do face-to-face, it merely shows how much harder it is.

    Sure, game works, the caliber of women ones gets through its use are not.

  61. Spike says:

    My first thought when I read Patterson’s story was that it was a stretch or embellishment. My second thought was to an elderly and godly couple who attended the church I grew up in.

    Ned (Not his real name) married Nola (not her real name either) very young. It wasn’t clear whether there was a pregnancy involved, or some other reason. What was clear was that Ned was an old-school hell-raiser. He drank, he fought, he gambled his money away. If he didn’t fight other men, he took it out on Nola. Her life was awful defined.
    In desperation Nola didn’t go to the police (perhaps she tried), but to the church. There she found the courage to cope. She stuck by Ned. He was initially horrified she went to the church. Eventually, the men of the church intervened on Ned. They chastised him, challenged him, dared him. They also cared for him, supported him and slowly rebuilt him. Ned became a Christian and a changed man.
    My parents weren’t Christian, but they knew Ned and Nola. As I had been an ineffective witness to them, I asked Ned and Nola if they could meet my parents, whom they knew, and witness to them. That they did, and for that I was ever grateful.
    Moral of the story: there are stories like this out there. They may be longer in time, less dramatic, but they exist.

  62. Oscar says:

    Spike,

    That’s an awesome testimony. Thanks for sharing.

    Men like Ned exist. They’re rare, but they exist. They don’t exist (in my experience) among the nice middle class people who make up most of American Christianity, but they do exist.

    That’s the error (which I believe is intentional) that feminists make. They accuse all of us Christian men of being Neds, or at least potential Neds. In fact, feminists claim that Christianity – because it’s the very definition of patriarchy (God the Father is in charge) – turns us all into Neds.

    The exact opposite is true.

    I’ve known a handful of men like Ned. The Neds I knew all had Spanish names, but other than that, they were very similar. The ones who became Christians were transformed, just like Ned was. One was transformed instantaneously. The others were transformed gradually, but they were all transformed.

    The safest place for women and children is in a stable family with a married father and mother. That is empirically provable. If feminists actually cared about women and children, they’d promote that kind of family. Instead, they actively work to eliminate the family from Western culture. At the same time, they import millions of fighting age males from a culture that actually does breed Neds.

    What does that tell you?

  63. @RPL

    Ah, that’s why we should send female felons to prison. Prisons are not there to “serve the needs” of felons. Prison are there to “serve the needs” of the non-felon community, but keeping felons locked up. And to punish them. If prisons fail to “serve the needs” of felons, that’s a Good Thing.

    While I appreciated the I Love Lucy black eye episode you posted (what a startling difference to today’s atmosphere…today would be, “How dare they make light of abuse!”), and while I identify with what I perceive as the overall thrust of your comment, I take exception to your praise for retributivist criminal justice. The U.S. criminal justice system, similar to your opinion, is characterized by a retributivist philosophy, meaning that “criminals are punished not primarily to deter crime or reform criminals but because the punishment itself is necessary for justice” (my definition). I used to agree with you; then I became a target of our system due to a false DV claim. Until you’ve been subject to the system yourself, I’m not sure you will fully appreciate the total destruction men face to their reputations (without ever having been convicted of a crime), the pressure to plead out, the unremitting stress and agony of facing a potential “Judgment Day” for a crime you didn’t commit, the thousands and thousands of dollars it takes to purchase a legitimate legal defense, etc.

    Retributivism is great, as long as you aren’t the defendant. “Lock ‘em up and throw away the key!” Seems like it’ll help protect you and your family from dangerous criminals. It probably does, to some extent. But once you become the target of this system, I guarantee you will repent of your retributivist ways and beg for mercy from God (and your friendly local district/county prosecutor).

  64. Phil says:

    For the last nearly 20 years I’ve studied various Christian perspectives on divorce and remarriage. Over the decades I’ve run into the “abused woman with two black eyes” tale so many times that my wife and I simply call the tired yarn “the two black eyes story.” Like all fish tales, the details vary slightly, but the gist of the story is always the same and follows the same outline as Patterson retold. I think the oldest recounting of the story was told in a 1970s era sermon on divorce by the late pastor Ray Steadman that I was reading many years ago. But Patterson is rare in that he claims it as first hand experience, not a second hand tale, as most preachers do. But yes, the tale is *that* common.

    There’s a joke here: “Grandma?” the young boy asked, “Why does he tell lies?” Nonplussed, the elderly lady softly took the boy’s hand to correct him: “Those aren’t ‘lies,’ those are ‘pastors stories’.”

  65. Wraithburn says:

    Sounds like #FakeGoodNews to me.

  66. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Regarding the romance scams …

    It amazes me that some men, however nice they are, however many positive attributes they have — career, money, intelligence, humor, stability — struggle for dates. Even if they’re willing to shower a woman with expensive dinners, flowers, theater tickets, travel, they struggle for dates.

    Whereas other men have nothing, offer nothing, and yet can extract $$$ millions from women.

    It reminds me of Rod Stewart’s 1980s song:

  67. earl says:

    It amazes me that some men, however nice they are, however many positive attributes they have — career, money, intelligence, humor, stability — struggle for dates. Even if they’re willing to shower a woman with expensive dinners, flowers, theater tickets, travel, they struggle for dates.

    Whereas other men have nothing, offer nothing, and yet can extract $$$ millions from women.

    That’s not luck…that’s being a skilled con man (or woman).

    The struggle for dates successful men have is not the problem…it’s the goddess like thought process most women have today. From being showered as princesses when young to all sorts of male thirst flattery they get when they are old enough to take selfies. They see men as inferior when they are in this state (down with the Patriarchy, boys are dumb throw rocks at them, and such). So when a man who has no job and is basically a cad comes into the picture…he fulfills her goddess like thought process.

    It is better though to live as a good responsible man. It’ll drive away these women. They can have their con men and eat it too if that’s the path they choose.

  68. OKRickety says:

    Oscar,

    Excellent synopsis.

    “In fact, feminists claim that Christianity – because it’s the very definition of patriarchy (God the Father is in charge) – turns us all into Neds.”

    Unfortunately, “feminists” includes most Christian women. Many, maybe most, would deny it, of course, but it is clearly visible in their behavior, including their words.

  69. earl says:

    What does that tell you?

    By their fruits you’ll know them.

    They accuse all of us Christian men of being Neds, or at least potential Neds. In fact, feminists claim that Christianity – because it’s the very definition of patriarchy (God the Father is in charge) – turns us all into Neds.

    That’s because they have a distorted view of God by living in their error. They think every evil thing a man does originates from ‘The Patriarchy’. They don’t know where true evil comes from and it’s certainly not from God.

    Every good thing a man does comes from God. (James 1:17-18)

  70. JRob says:

    empathologism on May 29, 2018 at 2:48 pm and freebird@ 7:45 pm

    I’ve seen both types in the past. My first thought when I heard this story was Patterson embellishing to self-adulate, or simply for effect to the audience. “Look how MY advice tamed the savage beast. I am such a great man of God.” Or, as stated before, he thought the audience needed a jump start to “get it.”

    Perhaps even biblical advice can be as filthy rags coming from our sinful hearts with impure motives.

  71. Anon says:

    Oh, this one is even better.

    Woman loses 1.6M GBP (about $2.4M) to Nigerian Romance scam.

    The ugly Nigerians with horizontal nostrils specifically read Game-related books, as described in the article above.

  72. Gary Eden says:

    If a woman goes to the hospital with a physical injury they will spend more time trying to pin it on hubby than actually dealing with the injury. In truth, their ‘care’ plays out more like an interrogation. They’ll try and intimidate you, ask you 20 different ways, ask leading questions, all while NOT ACTUALLY TREATING YOUR INJURY!

    The medical system is corrupt and complicit in this persecution of men and excusal of female violence.

  73. SnapperTrx says:

    How true this is. My wife slipped on the carpet while walking down the stairs in her socks and cut her foot on a corner of the wall. I had her go into the doctor to get it checked out because it looked pretty bad and she said the lady counselor she sees for “support” grilled her about the “real” reason she fell down the stairs:

    “Is everything okay at home?”
    “Everything alright between you and your husband?”
    “You know if someone is hurting you, you can say something here.”
    “Are you SURE you husband had nothing to do with this?”

    Now this is the lady that I told my wife she did not need to be seeing because her qualifications on her website are “pastor” and “clinical psychologist”, so, red flags all over. I even warned my wife that she would be confronted with these kinds of suggestions from a so-called counselor, but she decided to go anyway. Haven’t had any real problems with her, but my wife has little concern that every time she goes she is being disobedient to the word of God, or that this pastor lady will lean on the Duluth model and see if she can pin the blame on me if she has injuries.

    Find out if the husband can be held responsible first, then treat the injury!

  74. Sad that the Duluth Model is now being viewed critically not because of its responsibility for the destruction of so many innocent men’s lives, but because it does not comport with same sex relationship dynamics (the Left eats its own). Hopefully this will shine a light on a revealing statistic: by far the highest rate of domestic violence is committed between lesbian partners. This is because women are the primary instigators and initiators of physical confrontation. Feminism is not merely a distortion of the truth, it is in direct opposition to the truth. Women usually initiate confrontation or violence, men often bring it to a conclusion.

  75. Joe says:

    Oh. No. ]
    Ohnoohnoohno.

    This past sunday, when preching on homosexuality the said that “having attraction to members of the same sex is not a sin, as long as you don’t act on it.” Then he used a long passage of a book WRITTEN BY A SO-CALLED PASTOR WHO HAS SAME SEX ATTRACTION. AND NOT ONE WORD OF THE BIBLE.

    The entire rest of the sermon did condemm homosexuality as a sin. Including that we should not attend same sex “weddings”.

    But appaertly its OK to have homosexual attractions?

    Am I wrong, or is THAT wrong?

    What about in Collosians 3:5 where it says to put to death evil desires?

    “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.”

    What about the 10 commandments, where we are not to covent another nams wife?
    What about the verse where it says “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

    What about the verse where we become “new creatures in Christ”

    Am I getting this wrong that I think same sex attraction is sinful?

  76. bdash 77 says:

    If it is okay to have same sex attraction
    it should be okay to lust….

    The pastor is an agent of the DEVIL not God

  77. feeriker says:

    The pastor is an agent of the DEVIL not God

    Any pastor who is clearly afraid of offending gays, ODDS BEING THAT NOT ONE OF THEM IS A MEMBER OF HIS CONGREGATION (unless it’s a specifically “gay ‘church'”) needs to be thoroughly investigated.

  78. bdash 77 says:

    also AL MOHLER trained his daughter to be a feminist, she refused to stay at home after she gave birth to her first child
    She made her husband change to a more flexible job so she could pursue her career…..

  79. feeriker says:

    also AL MOHLER trained his daughter to be a feminist, she refused to stay at home after she gave birth to her first child
    She made her husband change to a more flexible job so she could pursue her career…..

    And his daughter will probably frivorce that husband in a few short years – with Al, of course, giving her full cover.

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