Casual dating and serial monogamy as lost virtues.

There is a story making the rounds about a Boston College professor trying to entice her students to go on dates.  The shocker for older generations outside the men’s sphere is that dating is now a dead practice.  But what makes the article stand out to me is the way that serial monogamy and casual dating are framed as lost virtues that need to be recovered:

If students don’t learn how to date while they’re in college, while surrounded by thousands of peers all in a similar stage in life, Cronin says, it only gets harder to build those skills after graduation…

Cronin has received all sort of pushback to her dating project – from super-Catholics, from super-feminists and from students who’d rather focus on getting a job than getting a date. Her defense? “Not everybody is called to romantic relationship, not everyone is called to marriage,” Cronin says. “But everybody’s called to relationships — that what it means to be human.”

And that’s what she’s trying to foster. She tells students: “This is mostly not about meeting your soul mate; it’s mostly about social courage and challenging yourself to be a little countercultural, to do something you know you want to do. And to just be okay with being a little awkward, a little vulnerable and asking a little bit of yourself.”

This is a quixotic desire is to take a snapshot of the sexual revolution and freeze the frame there, but it won’t work.  The supposed virtues of serial monogamy and casual dating are not in fact virtues at all.  Conservatives long for them out of nostalgia, not a real sense of morality.  Moreover, what has destroyed our popular conception of the courtship ritual is the massive extension of the period we expect this ritual to take place (both before marriage and after divorce).  The longer we stretch the process out, the more ridiculous the seeming formality of the process (with no real rules) becomes to the young people we expect to participate in it.  That older generations pine for a bygone era doesn’t make this seem less ridiculous to young people;  it makes it seem even more ridiculous.

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213 Responses to Casual dating and serial monogamy as lost virtues.

  1. American says:

    Guy invoices a date for her share of the meal after she doesn’t want to go out with him again, lol. In the video, the TMZ staff debases themselves by white knighting of course as expected but the real story here is are young men finally starting to figure it out?

  2. Scott says:

    This is a quixotic desire is to take a snapshot of the sexual revolution and freeze the frame there, but it won’t work.

    I haven’t quite put my finger on it, but I think its a period of roughly 40-50 years, ending sometime in the late 80s/early 90s. It sort of depends on when the first “date” occurred.

    So much has been written on this topic (in this part of the internet) it is almost laughable to read such an article. Like “duh. Where have you been?”

    It was shocking how quickly dating gave way to hook ups. I was married from 1994-2001 and when I came out of that marriage, I was hit hard with “f*$@ buddies” and a whole host of other less-than-ideal relationship formats. I was 29 at the time, and my youngish friends thought I was a prude because I wanted to go out on a few dates before getting physical.

  3. Pingback: Casual dating and serial monogamy as lost virtues. | @the_arv

  4. Novaseeker says:

    Scott —

    Yeah it changed somewhere in there in general. However when I was in college and grad school (mid 80s through early 90s), dating was not common, hookups were more common. There also were people who were “seeing each other” (ie, couples), but they didn’t go on dates, and their relationships started as pair offs from larger groups or from “just hanging out” in each other’s rooms and so on. Going on an actual date was really uncommon, at least where I went to school (very competitive place, mostly very ambitious students).

    The difference for me between now and then is that at that time, this wasn’t yet the predominant model in the world beyond school. At that time, people actually still dated in that post-school world, although this dating culture co-existed with a pickup culture (people have been picking up people for sex in bars and clubs since the 1970s really, that isn’t new at all), with people generally moving between each of them but not confusing them. What has changed again, today, is that it’s all lumped together — there isn’t any real distinction between any of it — “dating” or “non-date get-togethers” or pickups or tinder hookups or what have you. It’s all smushed together into a very ambiguous and very casual spectrum of encounters which revolve mostly around slightly different preludes to sex.

    The objection being raised by people like this Professor is to the ambiguous smushing together. She’s around my age and while her experience on campus seems to have been different from mine (again, my school was very competitive, and very few people were interested in being tied down romantically in a way that would forego options post-graduation — this clearly influenced the sex/reating mores on campus), she experienced the hybrid culture of “dating and pickup”, where the two categories co-existed and were not smushed together, and so that’s what she thinks should be “normal”, as compared with today’s smushed together situation which is not normal for her generation but is normal for the younger one, for whom dating seems like just so much BS is the real idea is to get to sex as quickly as possible to see if it’s worth “investing anything else” in someone. Of course they don’t see anything wrong with casual dating and the serial monogamy culture that goes along with it because again this is what they were used to themselves.

    Note that this attitude is also almost universally present among Christians of this same generation. They are “horrified” at quickie sex encounters materializing from Tinder and Bumble and so on, but they’re quite comfortable with serial fornication in the context of dating — because, again, this is what they themselves are used to and what they themselves did, in many (most?) cases, prior to marriage.

  5. earl says:

    The supposed virtues of serial monogamy and casual dating are not in fact virtues at all.

    If it included premarital sex, it certainly wasn’t…it was just a ruse to get there. Now people don’t even go through the ‘formality’ of dating to get the sex.

    I know courtship is pretty much dead, dating is either dead or on the ventalliator…but there is no way I can engage with the hookup lifestyle especially with the current legal climate and how much men are the target of the sexual witch hunt. Not with every women on the offense path and turning consent into rape when her feelings change.

    Feminists got every base cornered…they can get you in marriage, they can get you in premarital hookups, they can get you at work, and they can get you in school. Hence your best options are living a Godly lifestyle and/or avoiding these ‘traps’ of women. I’d like to think the two are often tied together.

  6. feministhater says:

    Guy invoices a date for her share of the meal after she doesn’t want to go out with him again, lol. In the video, the TMZ staff debases themselves by white knighting of course as expected but the real story here is are young men finally starting to figure it out?

    It’s great to be honest. Women will shame the men of course and more men will simply pick up their things and go home. It’s a self-fulfilling action. It’s getting to the point where only the most alpha of men or lowest of simps engage in this market.

    What he did should actually be considered normal. It would shift the ability of women to leech off of supposed dates by forcing them to refund the man half if they refuse a second date. It’s quite logical. If she declines a second date then she should pay her share. Simple.

    This is a quixotic desire is to take a snapshot of the sexual revolution and freeze the frame there, but it won’t work.

    I think it’s even more than that. Women had the dating market made until very recently. They could choose the hook-up or they could choose the monogamous dating to get both the sexual and monetary investment they thought they were entitled to. At anytime they could shift between the two and now that fewer and fewer people are interested in forking out for this mess, those freebies are getting increasingly less. Furthermore, they used to be able to convert those monogamous relationships into marriage once they reached their late twenties to early thirties, this is also declining slowly but surely.

    This is just trying to rebuild the mound, to convince men to pay for dates again, instead of just expecting sex. Dating has no value, not then, not now.

  7. Anon says:

    Guy invoices a date for her share of the meal after she doesn’t want to go out with him again, lol.

    It is good he had the balls to do that.

    But he was a fool to go on a dinner date to begin with. One of the primary rules of Game is to never buy women dinner before you had sex with them. It is also among the easiest to internalize and implement.

  8. Darth Curmudgeon says:

    “This is a quixotic desire is to take a snapshot of the sexual revolution and freeze the frame there, but it won’t work”
    Yes, this.
    This is it in a nutshell. It is the descent that is fun, hitting bottom and being at the bottom is not. One can only behave as though one is in the midst of the ‘sexual revolution’ if the rest of the world does not. I can only get away with counterfeiting money if I’m the only one (or one of very few) doing it. Once everyone can counterfeit money, money is worthless and being able to create it garners no advantage. Once the sexual revolution has happened, society cannot function, and sexuality has no value.
    They are yearning for the days when only they could “print money.”
    This applies to so many things. Why work when it will be taxed to pay for those on welfare? Why not just go on welfare? It goes on and on.

  9. PokeSalad says:

    She tells students: “This is mostly not about meeting your soul mate;

    Ahhhh, there it is, again.

  10. PokeSalad says:

    @ Darth Curmudgeon:

    Outstanding comment; I had not seen it put in those terms before.

  11. Damn Crackers says:

    @Feministhater – She isn’t trying to bring back dating, she is trying teach how to get a plate of pasta and a tiramisu desert with a girl’s hookup.

    I’m a never-married 47 yo childless man. Asking a woman out for a date is as absurd to me as getting a mail-order bride.

  12. Damn Crackers says:

    @Darth Curmudgeon – Yes. Not only has sexual value become debased, but so has everything else in modern life, such as education, currency, citizenship, church life, and even marriage.

  13. earl says:

    But to many college students, Cronin acknowledges, meeting for a cup of coffee and sober conversation with someone you’re interested in on a Sunday afternoon can feel more intimate than getting naked with them on a Friday night.

    Really? So we can strip naked and trade body fluids with strangers in the most intimate act which could produce a child with no intimidation but having a conversation with someone is the most fearful thing a person can do?

    This world is so mixed up to me.

  14. seventiesjason says:

    Women still have the dating market made. They decide. They give the cues (usually throwing themselves at the guy via pre-selection). They give the guy the go ahead. They are the ones who decide if she is going to date him / see him or not again. They are the ones who can scream “creep” or tatle to authority (church setting). They are the ones who decide if sex is going to happen. They are the ones who will be believed by any report they give to other women about the guy. They are the ones who can reject.

  15. earl says:

    Once everyone can counterfeit money, money is worthless and being able to create it garners no advantage. Once the sexual revolution has happened, society cannot function, and sexuality has no value.

    Bingo…much like when everybody is special or everything is rape…the terms special and rape becomes worthless.

  16. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott
    I haven’t quite put my finger on it, but I think its a period of roughly 40-50 years, ending sometime in the late 80s/early 90s. It sort of depends on when the first “date” occurred.

    Young women were going on dates in the 1920’s. The Model – T Ford had a number of social effects.

  17. Otto says:

    Groups hanging out and group activities (like bowling) are vastly superior to 1 on 1 dating–particularly for college students.

  18. feministhater says:

    Plus, even in the real world, there are no dating rules anymore. Plans are frequently broken or rescheduled; dating apps create so many options that people are often treated as if they’re disposable. The person who asks someone outdoesn’t necessarily pick up the check anymore. All of which are why students are so intrigued and clueless about how to go about this assignment.

    So Cronin gives guidelines: The student has to ask in person (“texting is the devil; stop it,” she says in one of her YouTube videos), and the recipient has to know it’s a date. And if they say they’re busy and to check back with them later, don’t. Just move on. “That’s a great skill to build, so that you can have a thicker skin,” Cronin says. She believes that the person who asks, pays. And the first date shouldn’t cost more than $10, include drugs or alcohol, or last longer than 90 minutes. “Nobody’s interesting after three hours,” she says, which is true for daters of any age.

    She is obviously trying to recreate the dating market. Funny how the ‘one who asks’ always pays. Who asks? Men of course, duh!

    The article tries to trick you, of course, by trying to show that woman ask men out too….

    For example, when Erika Peña took Cronin’s class in 2008, she asked one of her guyfriends, Jared, to join her for ice cream not far from campus. The two of them knew each other through mutual friends and would frequently see one another at parties, but hadn’t spent one-on-one time together – until the dating assignment. It was the first time Peña had asked a guy on a date. “It leapfrogged us into having an actual conversation that didn’t revolve around a Jager Bomb,” Peña recalled recently. They went out a few more times, but graduation was nearing and Peña had a job lined up in New York City. “At 20, I wasn’t necessarily thinking I’m looking for something serious.”

    But they continued dating for several years before getting engaged back at the ice cream shop where they had their first date. When they got married in 2014, Cronin attended their wedding. They now have a son, Adrian, who’s 15 months old.

    In the end, it’s merely another attempt to get men to re-engage the culture on women’s terms. Notice it took them 6 years to get engaged…. dating is a loser’s game, where the man always pays.

    She isn’t trying to bring back dating, she is trying teach how to get a plate of pasta and a tiramisu desert with a girl’s hookup.

    The natural end game of dating is hook-ups.

  19. Scott says:

    AR-

    Yes, I agree. The first “date” required a car. I am just not sure we would recognize those dates as having the same features as a date from say, 1985 would have. But, for the most part you are correct.

  20. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sorry if this posts twice.
    As both Dalrock and Nova pointed out, the professor’s just rolling in nostalgia of the “it worked for me!” sort. Too bad $usan Wal$h has given up on her site, this prof would fit right in as a guest writer.

    We scoff at aging carousel riders nostalgia for the days when they could ride hot Alpha ponies, but it’s the same thing as tradcon nostalgia for the 1950’s or some other imaginary Golden Age. Make no mistake, there were no Golden Ages. I’m reading a book from 1907 by a Victorian author who was a big fan of Robert Louis Stevenson, and the 1st wave feminism is obvious because I have the glasses to see it.

    (people have been picking up people for sex in bars and clubs since the 1970s 1920s really, that isn’t new at all),

    FIFY.

    Remember, it was 99 years ago in the US that the Female Imperative secured votes for women and took alcohol away from men…which led to the 1920’s speakeasy, where women were much easier for men to pick up…because AWALT at the hindbrain level.

    Time for me to point to Chaucer again. Every Anglosphere man should read The Tale of the Wife of Bath a couple of times, perhaps once per decade.

    Note: Chaucer predates Columbus by nearly two centuries. So “mah golden age!” has to be pushed back before 1300 AD.

  21. squid_hunt says:

    Old slut yells at clouds.

    [D: Hilarious!]

  22. Damn Crackers says:

    Does the professor want to go back to this type of dating?

  23. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott
    Yes, I agree. The first “date” required a car.

    No, that just made it easier. The streetcar worked almost as well.

    I am just not sure we would recognize those dates as having the same features as a date from say, 1985 would have.

    You might be surprised about that as well.

    What has changed? Women’s hindbrain nature is much more visible now than before, thanks to several factors (not just the Pill, Earl). This professor is just nostalgic.

  24. Gary Eden says:

    As always, they want their cake and eat it too. They got equality but don’t like what that means.

    Society needs to learn to quit listening to what women claim they want.

  25. gunner451 says:

    Yes it looks like she is trying to reset to whatever norm she had when at that age. The sad thing is that this is being driven by 80% of the women and the top 20% of men (the old 80/20 rule). I think that most guys that are not in that 20% would be fine with dating as they are not benefiting all that much from the hookup culture. Also I think that once the women start to get close to either the wall or their bio-clock going off they mostly transition to dating (and looking for a sucker to take care of them and their spawn) with the 80% of men that have really gone nowhere. At that point these guys are so thirsty that they’ll turn a blind eye to her past and wife her up.

    Granted there is a slow growing realization of what’s going on in the 80% crowd combined with women pushing things a little too close to the wall so we see a slow decline in the marriage rates but it has not completely fallen apart like in the black community. I do, however, expect to see some type of waterfall event for whites/Hispanics/Asians sometime in the future. The key will be the male spawn of the single mothers who have a natural disrespect for women and see them as nothing more than ho’s. Once that happens we can look forward to mud huts and starvation.

    Given all that I cannot imagine the despair of these young Christian guys in the 80% category. I thank God I’m not young like them, doomed to being hard up all my youth and then marrying some used up slut and being mostly hard up all through my marriage because she’s just not that into me. Man this age sucks!

  26. earl says:

    They got equality but don’t like what that means.

    They like equality until they don’t.

  27. JR says:

    Anonymous Reader: Young women were going on dates in the 1920’s. The Model – T Ford had a number of social effects.

    Even before that, the great ‘liberator’ was the advent of the bicycle that allowed boys and girls to escape their parents. The Rockefeller’s incidentally were heavy subsidisers of bicycling magazines at the turn of the 20th Century; part of the cultural transformation program of the elites in the West (see any THKelly67 interview with John Adams on YT).

  28. Danglars says:

    I can see this also being innocent from her part. She could be totally oblivious to the extended dating period, the effect of frivorce on engagements, and why young people have rewritten the rules or accepted the post-sexual revolution rewrite. After all, anyone can see how fearful young adults are of exposing their inner feelings to someone else and how fearful of rejection adults are after being helicopter-patented through high school and beyond.

    She obviously picks a bad avenue for the “fix.” Old school rules of dating is an ignorant viewpoint for a corrective. The true road is to develop close friendships based on truth. The next step is to talk to a variety of people to learn the new Marriage 2.0 structure, and the kind of new rule book grounding anyone marriage-minded in today’s culture. This blog, for example, compiles the interview process and frank observations of the risk.

    I wish the boomers would realize their role in creating present norms (really, why they’re rational adjustments to women’s sexual liberation and no-fault divorce). That kind of self-reflection is rare. I don’t honestly blame her. Who spends a day musing and suddenly discovers the last three decades+ of “norms” were really a dramatic shift from her 20s dating scene, and that it stemmed from changes that could be observed even back then?

  29. Death Curmudgeon,

    Lots of value in your comments, but this is key, imo.

    “It is the descent that is fun, hitting bottom and being at the bottom is not.”

    Skydiving without a parachute is a blast, but the end is bad news. Weimar was a blast, but the hangover was bad. Weimerica is a blast. Time will show us what comes next for America.

    I’d like to hear more from societies that are further along in this evolution. Like the Nordics. What’s it like there for young people?

  30. rocko says:

    This can be summed up in an old saying my Mexican relatives thought me: el hombre va hasta donde la mujer quiere, which roughly translates as, the man goes as far as the woman wants.

    And I will agree with all of this. I’m 34 and single. However, having been engaged for a few years and having ended the relationship, I can attest how tough men have it. Nowadays men will go out of their way to appease women, just for a piece of the action, so to speak. I live in West Texas oil country, and it’s even more amazing watching men from poor backgrounds, little guidance, and little education, if any, make $10000 a month, only to splurge it on some loose woman who they end up impregnating and having to move in with. Just on account of having a vagina, these women will get anything they want, from spa visits to new purses to a new ride. I kid you not, I’ve been to the grocery store and I’ve parked next to women in pajamas driving Corvettes and Hummers.

    And of course the booms end, the relationships end, the man ends up paying child support, and the women end up on Tinder playing the strong single mom persona in order to get more hookups. Rinse and repeat. And people wonder why romance is dead.

  31. rocko says:

    “Remember, it was 99 years ago in the US that the Female Imperative secured votes for women and took alcohol away from men…which led to the 1920’s speakeasy, where women were much easier for men to pick up…because AWALT at the hindbrain level”

    I mentioned this in a post over at the Chateau but it’s ironic how the same feminists who teamed up with evangelical Christians to enact Prohibition are the same ones now reveling in its repeal, if movies such as Bad Moms and Bridesmaids are any indication. And it’s amazing how evangelical Christians are still backing them up, being good white knights.

  32. BillyS says:

    I thought Dating was the be all, end all. At least that is what those who posted a fair while back griping about Kissing Dating Goodbye said. Dating was great!

    (The problem there is that it ended up just being dating in another name, not really doing what it claimed.)

  33. Lost Patrol says:

    What’s it like there for young people?

    I don’t know for sure, but this is what I’ve heard lately. (An old one now but still perfect).

  34. Pingback: Casual dating and serial monogamy as lost virtues. | Reaction Times

  35. CSI says:

    “Dating” has all sorts of meanings. But the stricter sort, where’s there’s no sex and emotional intimacy is limited, is surely okay? The purpose being to find a spouse. There’s courtship, but before you can begin the courtship you need to find a partner. Are you supposed to just pick a girl, and then without even asking her out to coffee first, go directly to her father and ask permission to court her? Or perhaps we could institute the tradition of arranged marriages where people don’t even see each other until their wedding day?

  36. The Question says:

    More unbearable than this situation is the utter and eternal denial among so many about what is happening.

  37. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Once everyone can counterfeit money, money is worthless and being able to create it garners no advantage. Once the sexual revolution has happened, society cannot function, and sexuality has no value.

    Bad analogy.

    Counterfeiting assumes worthless paper is widely available. Whereas the sexual revolution made sex scarcer for men, not more widely available.

    Remember the 20/80 rule. Before the sexual revolution, most men were sure of having a wife at an early age. After the sexual revolution, most young men went thirsty (while Alphas had more sex than ever before) and eventually settled for loveless marriages to former carousel riders.

  38. Sharkly says:

    Scott: I agree. The first “date” required a car.

    From: Dolcy Jones ~ Stephen Foster 1849

    Oh! When I go a courting
    I ride thr’o mud and rain;
    I leave de old hoss snorting
    At de corner ob de lane.
    I find my Dolcy weeping,
    And charm her wid de bones,
    Bye’n bye I leabe her sleeping,
    Oh! dadda, D’D’ Dolcy Jones!

  39. Lovekraft says:

    @RPL above:

    ‘Thirst’ is a simple concept that carries a lot of weight. It ties into deep evolutionary impulses. Men in their forties and older, I suspect, have it under control, or make fools of themselves chasing it.

    For the younger guys, we have two choices: 1. attempt to reform the system and present a viable alternative in which this thirst can be sated or 2. understand this will never happen – hypergamy is too strong – and help the unlucky adjust to the reality of not finding a stable, meaningful relationship.

    There’s a third option, which is game, PUA, but I think for many men, this really isn’t an option (looks, economic status, workplace harassment codes of conduct etc etc).

    Is it possible to eliminate this ‘thirst’, thus removing a powerful tool of women/society over men, and STILL present a viable relationship model?

  40. CSI says:

    “Thirst” is natural male libido (strongest in young men). Its probably strongest in men without much sexual experience too.

    You can’t eliminate it except perhaps by hormonal intervention. It can be managed of course. I think staying away from sexual imagery which provokes it might help. And PUA isn’t really an option for most men. Even if most men somehow found the drive and motivation to learn and apply it, this would merely cause women to become more discerning.

  41. mark says:

    I’m on a christian campus right now. The only people really getting married are the very hot couples. Most of the average, plain-jane girls appear to be holding out. They say they don’t like the Christian guys on campus, which is code for most christian young men are not hot enough. Top tier 5% of men get married, maybe the next 20% are in long term relationships, while the rest of the group is single and being held-out on, mainly because the plane janes don’t know how to settle.

  42. Jack Russell says:

    More women than men on most campuses. Even though most courses are useless degrees. The way the rules are at so called higher education places, not worth the risk of a false rape or harassment accusation. She may have had many females students privately mention to her that guys are not interested in them and ignores the elephant and the 500lb gorilla in the same room.

  43. Sharkly says:

    “Not everybody is called to romantic relationship, not everyone is called to marriage,” Cronin says. “But everybody’s called to relationships — that what it means to be human.”

    While technically what she says can be true, she is missing the incentive, and that is huge!
    Liberals almost always get human nature wrong. They don’t want to acknowledge God was right when he said we all have selfish, lazy and sinful natures. Thus they are always mystified as to why socialism/communism fails every time, everywhere, with everybody. It goes against human nature, and no amount of “re-education” is going to change that.

    A happy marriage with happy kids and a loving helpful adoring wife, loyal till death do you part, was always the purported reward for dating a girl, and taking her on as your responsibility.

    Now, she’ll dead-bedroom you, mock you publically, put her every desire above your goals, steal your children and turn them against you, steal your wealth and future income, charge you with being “abusive” without a whiff of evidence, and leave you the second the “for better” turns towards “for worse”, even if she, herself, by incessant unhinged badmouthing may have played a significant role in destroying your reputation and career. There is no sane reason to want to race into that! And the incentive for Christian dating without the desire to marry is minimal at best. I really never dated until I felt somewhat ready to get married. Classic responsible Beta behavior, classic served divorce Beta result. I’ll try to warn my sons to avoid my mistakes when they are older, but they’ll probably pick up on the futility of what I did, without even having to be told.

    I’m really disappointed that the “church” was AWOL the entire 16 years my struggling marriage was crying out for help, or worse yet, they were cheering on my wife’s spoiled childish rebellion, and dishonoring me in front of her. They’re mostly a pathetic bunch of Pussy worshipping losers, picking and choosing their own foolish doctrines from the world around them. Finding a good man is 1 in 1000. And I’m more likely to find a Unicorn than a courageous Godly steadfast woman born out of this degenerate generation. Come quickly Lord Jesus! Amen.

  44. Gunner Q says:

    Lovekraft @ April 17, 2018 at 5:27 pm:
    “Is it possible to eliminate this ‘thirst’, thus removing a powerful tool of women/society over men, and STILL present a viable relationship model?”

    You mean, stop wanting to please women in order to associate well with women? No. Women aren’t worth the effort if a guy isn’t desperate for sex. That’s God’s opinion as well as mine.

  45. Swanny River says:

    Sharkly,
    I go to a good and conservative church. Probably close to 50% of 150 kids are homeschooled. Yet every person asks my wife about her job. No one asks her about our son. None of them remark to her about why she only talks about herself and not her husband or son. Not a one! Not 80%, but 100%. It’s so saltless, but it is polite, non- offensive, tolerant, and nice. Ugh.
    Not one true knight asking her about mothering or respecting and submitting to her husband.

  46. Devon35 says:

    The professor shows she is clueless about the signals online dating is sending. Most guys are rejected online while the few have woman throwing themselves at them. Does she expect guys getting rejected online to want to get rejected face to face too?

    I spent a few years in my twenties moping about but when I hit 30 I started challenging myself physically, creatively and mentally. Hitting the gym and running. Taking trips for nature photography. Taking online writing courses. I believe men can be happy so long as they are challenging themselves.To use an extreme example, the guy climbing Mount Everest isn’t obsessing over whether women like him or not. I’m 47 and most of the married men my age are 70 pounds overweight, beaten down and waiting to die.

  47. Spike says:

    What is happening here is that a college professor is looking at the current state of relationships, realizes there’s a problem and wants some sort of stability.
    There won’t be any to be found.
    As red-pill men have said over and over: Once you let the genie out of the bottle, it won’t go back in.Cronin, her children, her grandchildren and those around her have to lie in the bed made by liberal academics like her. They wanted relationships devoid of structure, devoid of religious constraints and morality, wanted sexual attraction and it alone to be the sole principle guiding relationships.
    Now, they see the polar consequences of stupid, senseless hookups on one side and avoidance of all relationships for varied reasons (work, #metoo consequences) and they know something is wrong.
    Perhaps a social reformation might work: If the next generation of young people, spearheaded by Christian youth thoroughly versed in apologetics and history, choose not to participate in the whole stupid mess and come out on top – it might just avoid the collapse. That’s a mighty big ”might”….

  48. Scott says:

    CSI, Sharkly

    I will have to plead ignorance on that poem. However, I doubt it was describing something normative in the 19th century.

    A date, as understood by folks who came of age in the 50s-80s is probably something pretty well defined. Guy meets girl, he gets the idea from her IOIs that she would like to go out with him. He asks her out, and they make plans to do so. Parents–not involved at all up to this point. He drives to her house on the night of the date. MAYBE he meets the dad at the front door, and this is the first time they have ever spoken. He tells him to have her back by 930.

    After a few of these, they start stealing away to private locations and have sex. The sex means that they have taken it to a new level, without actually saying it. They are now a couple. At any time, either member of the couple can unilaterally end the relationship with no consultation or approval from any authorities or elders.

    New girl, repeat.

    Now, in order to establish a new norm that includes some level of parental buy in or involvement will take something we have not yet seen. It cannot be created with a website. (I’ve tried).

    It will have to happen organically, because the conditions on the ground have become so odious and unbearable that whatever we are doing now must end. I don’t think we are close to that yet.

    So, super werido families like mine have to sift through the decaying culture and try to gently nudge our children into a different lane. We have to sell it to them rationally. We have to make contact with other such families and figure out how to nod in approval without pushing them away completely. Some friends of mine have had some pretty smart ideas in that regard.

    This is a stressful situation indeed. It is the most difficult task I have before me.

  49. Sharkly says:

    Spike: …Cronin, her children, her grandchildren and those around her have to lie in the bed made by liberal academics like her. They wanted relationships devoid of structure, devoid of religious constraints and morality…

    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/04/has_giving_leftists_what_they_want_made_america_better.html

  50. seventiesjason says:

    A lot hope is being put on the younger generation in the church. The boys youth program at The Salvation Army is called “Adventure Corps”

    It’s hardly an “adventure”…….the boys up to sixth grade sing “baby songs” during the meetings. The boys who come (all three of them) are *forced* by their parents who come to / attend The Corps. The leader (I was not asked when we dropped our Boy Scout / Cub Scout program) reads out of a binder. They basically have “church and Sunday school on Wednesday night” it’s incredibly boring……but it’s *defended* to the hilt of making the boys into “future leaders” and “bold for Jesus”

    They will all bolt the second they turn eighteen, from the Corps and from God. I have gone over the program on my own, looking at the books and materials. It’s a youth program written by women and it’s twenty years behind the times (like the church in general is today concerning cultural matters) and it goes by the assumption that anyone at the Corps can teach it. They trust the materials over the actual people leading it.

    The “Royal Rangers” program at the AG churches is really no different today…..maybe in a few years it will be at the level “Adventure Corps” is at……….right before I left the BSA, they had implemented the new Cub Scout books, ranks, and merits………even THEN I was glancing and reading it……..I said out loud “Why not just call the Cub Scouts the “girls scouts” at this point?” Well, voila! Less than a year later, girls were allowed to “join”

    I could go on in further detail about the BSA………I turned in my Wooodbadge beeds and neckerchief to the local Council after this decision. I also earned Scouters Key and The Cubmaster Award (for two years I was The Scoutmaster and Cubmaster for our Troop and Pack). I also attended the National Council Meeting for the revision of the Scout Handbook for the new edition in 2014. I of course was “put in line” by all the “alphas” in the room. I spoke up loudly and blantantly about how “reverent” was being watered down into an option in the upcoming edition.

    All the smart Scoutleaders there (a few hundred) let me know differently of course.

  51. Scott says:

    Seventiesjason-

    In my opinion, the time has come to abandon the institutions. The primary reason they exist is to perpetuate a belief system, a value system, a set of principles and standards into the future by bringing up young people in those traditions. Where is even ONE that does that today?

    An underground (or even partly underground) group of men committed to saving the seeds civilization while the fire rushes over the forest is all that can really hold now. It doesn’t have to be brutal, but it might be. We need to start thinking about that.

    I was a boy scout. I played high school sports. So these things I write are painful.

    I save only one institution from this scorched earth policy, and that is Holy Orthodoxy, for obvious reasons.

    Regardless, the focus must be on the multigenerational long game. Those of us living today will not be around to see it

  52. American says:

    It starts off all tingly. Then the sex stops and the trouble starts. It ends in great enmity, loss of children, transference of your wealth and income, possibly jail and a criminal record following false allegations and/or an inability to pay the devil her due who’s left to have sex with other people, etc…

    Save yourself, go with a safe and proven alternative instead:

  53. seventiesjason says:

    Scott.

    The National Council Meeting for the revisions and updates to the Scout Handbook was held in Colorado Springs at the United States Air Force Academy. This was summer 2014. I was selected to go by the local Council here in Fresno (Sequoia). In a heated meeting one evening concerning “Reverent” I got the floor for five minutes to speak in front of a few hundred men. After three and half minutes was “put out of order”

    Probably because I did call out the National Board / Executive Council for even entertain such a thought.

    A Srgt at Arms for this meeting, a Scoutmaster who was about 75 and looked like ol Rusty from “The Peoples Court” escorted me OUT of the meeting until this point of business was concluded.

    What shocked me the most about this was when I opened with Baden Powell’s statement “Show me Scout who is not reverent, and I’ll show you a boy who is NOT a Scout”

    Howls, jeers….boo’s from hundreds of men. Men who REMEMBER Scouting of the second golden age (late 1950’s thru mid 1960’s). I remember laughing in shock and saying to the likes of “Every one of you Scoutmasters who booed me, I never again want to hear how Scouting has gone downhill since you left in 1960, 1962, 1957, or 1965 ever again!”

    More yelling. I was shocked that all these men who claimed to “love” Scouting dearly wanted all the vestiges of it torn down…….

    I completed Cub Scouting (Arrow of Light) and only did a year of Boy Scouts…….I found it boring because I did a lot more camping, hiking and coneoing with my dad than the local BSA Troop did. I do regret quitting.

    Anyways…thanks for your reply. It;s really hard though. I cried at home the day I stepped down from the Troop and Pack I nurttured, loved, challenged and grew from three boys to over fifty between the Ci=ub Scout Pack and Boy Scout Troop 😉

  54. Scott says:

    Its like mourning any other thing.

    You can try to hold on to what will never return, or recognize that one thing has ended, and another is about to begin.

    It will all peter out with a whimper. What rushes in to fill the vacuum is yet to be decided.

  55. seventiesjason says:

    Still doesn’t change the fact I could have done more Scott. Breaks my heart. The bnext couple of days, many fellow Scoutmasters from all over the USA would pull me aside and tell me “You know I support what you said 100%” and I at this point was downright upset. All I replied was “Then why didn’t you stand up and say something!!!”

    Excuses………fear, and defensivenes were their replies “You don’t understand / I am an Eagle Scout from 1966 / 1958 / 1961 how dare you talke to me like that!”

    Feeble retorts. My own bunkmate during that conference told me that night before bed “You have a lot of gall to speak like that, very un-Scoutlike if truth be told. I feel sorry for the boys you lead.”

    Jerk.

  56. Lost Patrol says:

    Scott –
    In my opinion, the time has come to abandon the institutions.

    Jason
    It;s really hard though.

    They died, or we are watching them die. Older men are wistful, younger men tend to not even know what they’re on about.

    The Old Cowboy would say: “The best thing you can do with death is ride off from it”.

  57. feeriker says:

    Feeble retorts. My own bunkmate during that conference told me that night before bed “You have a lot of gall to speak like that, very un-Scoutlike if truth be told. I feel sorry for the boys you lead.”

    Jerk.

    Jason, you’re lucky to be rid of that rotting corpse of an organization. In particular, those guys who told you that they agreed with you but were too gutless to stand with you and say/do the right thing. They’re worse –and more destructive– than those who attacked you.

    Scott is right: organizations like the Scouts (and, quite frankly, most church denominations) that can no longef uphold the principles on which they were founded deserve to die an ugly death. Let something fresh and new that has roots in moral absolutes take their place with fresh blood and fire.

  58. feeriker says:

    They [the boys] will all bolt the second they turn eighteen, from the Corps and from God.

    I seriously am beginning to wonder if this isn’t intentional, or at least passively condoned, on the part of many churches. Gven the rampant and blatant misandry oozing from every pore of the organized church, it would make sense that even a passive campaign of alienation of young boys and young men would be the surest way to expedite the thoroughly feminization of the church and drive out any remaining seeds of potential masculine leadership.

  59. info says:

    @Swanny River
    ”Yet every person asks my wife about her job. ”

    They have a lot of unlearning to do. As we all do.

  60. Mark says:

    Seems like another “Man Up” article to me……”man up” and dates those sluts! If I had this femtard as a professor I would confront her about this “extra credit activity”. I would say to her…

    “Are you f*****g retarded?…Are you not aware of the “date rape” hysteria that is occurring on campuses?…I could end up in the school’s “kangaroo court”…with no rights whatsoever, only to get expelled for some crime that I did not commit? So you can take your “extra credit activity” and stick it up your useless ass.If I want a date I will rent a call girl….and I will be advising my male colleagues to do the same”

    Do you think she would get the point?……I highly doubt it!

  61. American says:

    Paying a call girl is going down the wrong road too Mark. Transferring personal assets to an escort is as you say… f*****g retarded.

  62. CSI says:

    @Scott
    Some people have over the past 40 or so years tried to move back to “courtship” and away from “dating”. Purity, “I kissed dating goodbye”, etc. The results have been mixed as far as I can tell. It seems to lead to a higher than average level of never married bachelors and spinsters. If interacting with the opposite sex is a deadly serious business that is only appropriate when marriage is desired, it makes it even more daunting for young men to ask girls out (and even under casual dating culture this is hard enough for most young guys).

    And it means that girls are likely to dismiss any young guy they aren’t immediately strongly attracted to (of course they tend to do that under dating culture, but under courtship culture this is even more pronounced since the stakes are much higher). But perhaps where marriages do result, the divorce rate is lower. I’m not sure.

  63. Spike says:

    Sharkly says:
    April 17, 2018 at 8:13 pm
    …Cronin, her children, her grandchildren and those around her have to lie in the bed made by liberal academics like her. They wanted relationships devoid of structure, devoid of religious constraints and morality…

    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/04/has_giving_leftists_what_they_want_made_america_better.html

    -A good article, Sharkly. What I’m saying is exactly that. I’m for pinning the appalling statistics onto Cronin, academics and politicians like her, each and every time and at every opportunity. I have tried pinning the horrors of Communism onto left-liberals and it works.
    It sounds vindictive and harsh, but I cannot see any other way to fight than to confront and expose.

  64. Sharkly says:

    Spike,
    Feel free to share those statistics, so I can join you in pinning them on the Left Wingers.

  65. UK Fred says:

    I really wish that I did not agree with Seventiesjason, but he is speaking the truth and the vast majority out there do not want to hear the truth. Educated as a scientist, I must evaluate the evidence before me and I have no alternative but to agree.

    In the UK, there were four approximate contemporaries of mine from school who became scout leaders. Two have been convicted of child sexual abuse. I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but such a coincidence worries me. But while scout groups frequently meet on church premises, scouting is not a Christian activity in Britain.

    There was a Christian boys organisation, begun in, I believe, 1888 in Glasgow called the Boys Brigade. It tended to be based in Presbyterian and Methodist churches and during my childhood, in the 1960s near Glasgow, there were about 5 members of the Boys Brigade for each member of the scouts in my school.

    Following a disagreement over doctrine in the local Baptist church, because I do not accept that homosexual activity can ever be in accordance with Scriptural commands, I moved with my family to a local Methodist church. While there, I have been involved in meetings in which delegates have expressed the view that the Methodist Constitution and Discipline takes precedence over Scripture and shaken by how little many of the members of the church know about what Scripture teaches on many subjects, not just sex and marriage.

    The only hope I can see for Christianity, as opposed to churchianity, is to have faithful men follow the blueprint laid out by David Morrow in his ‘Men’s League’ thesis https://vimeo.com/channels/churchformen/17973632.

    There are a few independent churches out there, but it is very much hit or miss whether the independent church in your area is faithful to Scripture or not.

  66. I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and was taught the dating model for getting to know someone else. As my experience with women increased, I noticed that women never accept dates as a way of getting to know the other person. No one from the previous generation understood this to explain it to me, so I started experimenting on my own.

    What I found was that if women are already attracted, they will say yes. If they are no or maybe girls, they don’t want to be associated with something as formal as a date. Mostly, this was due to society allowing a man to push for sex on dates as normal, which in turn sexualized the act of dating.

    Once that particular taboo had been breached, dating HAD to die, because dating was no longer dating…it was marriage lite. The culture was just in denial for a couple generations afterwards. Nostalgia can’t bring back the past, only a hard look at reality and cultural dedication to change can do that. Until then, dating is just another outdated skill, like cursive or letter writing, that gets barely any use.

  67. Scott says:

    CSI–

    We are not really in disagreement. On my previous website I reviewed Joshua Harris book (and even interviewed him on the phone) in order to get his take on what became of that movement some decade and half later. He has distanced himself from the book a bit, primarily because it morphed into something he did not intend.

    There is a great line in the movie “A Beautiful Mind” when the John Nash/Russel Crowe character is on one of several dates with his girlfriend and he blurts out:

    “I find you attractive. Your aggressive moves toward me… indicate that you feel the same way. But still, ritual requires that we continue with a number of platonic activities… before we have sex. I am proceeding with these activities, but in point of actual fact, all I really want to do is have intercourse with you as soon as possible”

    This is what dating always was. When I was dating there was an unspoken time limit for when the sex would occur, and in the 80s it was somewhere around the third “date.” But the other unspoken rule was “do not ask a girl out who you are not already about 99% sure wants to have sex with you anyway.”

    The rest was a way to provide a facade of convention in order to get where you both already wanted to go. From the first interaction to the sex, you could play whatever boys scout/shucks ma’am, “meet cute” external role you wanted for everyone around you. You know, so everyone knew it was “true love,” or whatever.

    With regard to your point about the girl shunning all but the ones she is most viscerally attracted to: there is a school of thought within manosphere conventional wisdom that actually encourages this. That is, if you are woman, do not marry a man who does not absolutely drive you bonkers with desire, for in the rough times, there is a higher probability of failure/divorce. I happen to be in more or less agreement with that particular framework, in light of the way marriage is currently constructed around being “in love” as the baseline for whether or not it is valid.

    I would prefer something else. But what is needed to arrive at a situation where assortive mating is more realistically aligned (ie-everybody has a shot at a happy marriage) will require earth shattering explosion of misery. An event which has not yet been foreseen.

    The way I approach this is try to distill what makes a marriage a success as quite different from what we are now calling it. The primary feature of which would be permanence. I contend that a huge part of what is wrong there is the mate selection process itself. (Not the only thing, but a big culprit).

    If, by some paradigm shift that part of the path to marriage were to change, it would incentivize both sexes (and their families) to work on themselves in order maximize their potential as a spouse. Right now, one sex does not see this as a requirement.

  68. earl says:

    ‘What I found was that if women are already attracted, they will say yes.’

    Such a simple concept that is hard for a lot of guys to get.

    Even if she has sex with you it doesnt mean she’s attracted to you.

  69. BillyS says:

    CSI,

    “Dating” has all sorts of meanings. But the stricter sort, where’s there’s no sex and emotional intimacy is limited, is surely okay?

    How are you going to keep emotional intimacy limited? Impossible.

    The purpose being to find a spouse. There’s courtship, but before you can begin the courtship you need to find a partner. Are you supposed to just pick a girl, and then without even asking her out to coffee first, go directly to her father and ask permission to court her?

    Do you really believe you can’t learn something about another without one-on-one dating?

    Or perhaps we could institute the tradition of arranged marriages where people don’t even see each other until their wedding day?

    Who said you can’t see your spouse before the wedding day? That is a big distortion of the idea of arranged marriages or true courtship.

    And it means that girls are likely to dismiss any young guy they aren’t immediately strongly attracted to (of course they tend to do that under dating culture, but under courtship culture this is even more pronounced since the stakes are much higher). But perhaps where marriages do result, the divorce rate is lower. I’m not sure.

    It is the same as in a “dating” culture. You are lamenting the direction toward MGTOW, ironically. That is unavoidable at this point, whether it is dating or “courting”. Though courting is just dating under another name in reality, so it is not really a solution. We can’t fix the things leading to marriage if marriages are left as temporary connections.

    Devon,

    I’m 47 and most of the married men my age are 70 pounds overweight, beaten down and waiting to die.

    Most single guys your age are also overweight. It is a battle that comes with age, especially in today’s society, not just from marriage. Its great you are motivated and do well, but don’t be quite as arrogant that you are so much better than others.

    Jason,

    I am an Eagle Scout, but I share your view on things going downhill, even in Texas, at and near national BSA HQ. My experience is several years out of date as well, but it was headed downhill then.

    I regret it, but things are not salvageable and realize you did all you could, more than most. You are right taking issue with those only supporting you silently from the sides. The BSA is far from its founding principles and it is too late to change it.

    Scott,

    I would prefer something else. But what is needed to arrive at a situation where assortive mating is more realistically aligned (ie-everybody has a shot at a happy marriage) will require earth shattering explosion of misery. An event which has not yet been foreseen.

    I would agree with this, unfortunately. Too many Christians are following the idiocy to really reform it either. I pray you have wisdom raising your children. It was tough enough with my own, but I am well past that stage and I have no idea how I could make it in the current environment.

    I don’t relish the collapse though, as some do. It will be even worse before it changes for the better.

  70. seventiesjason says:

    Earl…….this has been the case since I was teenager (1980’s). Didn’t matter if you were the smartest boy in the class, played sports, were a “leader” in the school so to speak………if a teenage girl found you *hot / attractive / good looking* (about 20% of the boys in my prep school) she would sneak into your dorm room to let you have sex with her. She would go to any measure to “be with that boy” (including ditching her school, lying to parents, and hanging outside our school waiting for that boy)

    At mixer dancers we had with St. Elizabeths or Emma WIllard (girls prepertories in the area). Sometimes two to three women would actually “wait” their turn to have sex with one of the top tier boys looks wise.

    Made me see clearly at my tender age of 16-18 that looks seemed to only matter for girls.

  71. Damn Crackers says:

    There really is no marriage problem as long as you leave the Western woman alone. Go overseas and you’ll every single guy should realize he’s a celebrity in so many countries by just being from U.S., Canada, Western Europe, etc. If you are Christian and your belief is no marriage, no sex….go overseas and find a bride. As St. Paul said, even holding out for marriage for the “right girl next door” leads to sexual temptation. It’s better to marry than to burn.

  72. mgtowhorseman says:

    So how exactly are two people supposed to determine if they are emotionally, socially, politically, etc compatible to form a long term stable relationship to have and raise children and form a useful working unit for the continuation of society if they don’t interact socially, emotionally intimately beyond just rutting like deer?

    Oh silly me….

    TINGLES!!!

    What was I thinking being all logical?

  73. Kevin says:

    Dating is a tool to find a marriage partner after the age of around 18-20. Encouraging dating for sport among people older than that is hilarious.

    But aren’t Tinder hook-ups dates? She should be happy people are “dating” all the time and getting right to the part of the relationship they want – cheap pointless sex – as fast as possible.

  74. squid_hunt says:

    @mgtowhorseman

    if they don’t interact socially, emotionally intimately beyond just rutting like deer?

    Oh silly me….

    TINGLES!!!

    You realize what you are describing is pretty much exactly the recipe to check for the tingles, right? What does dating have to do with objectively evaluating a mate?

    You don’t have to bat your eyes at each other to know that someone is a trainwreck. You can look at the way they live their life without you in it to do that. How do you they take care of their appearance? How do their parents interact? How do they treat their parents? How did their siblings turn out? What spiritual goals do they have? How do they treat children? Are they career or family oriented? What sort of social standing to do they have? What are their quirks?

    Once you step into dating mode, you are fundamentally on a quest to trick the person you are dating that you are what they’re looking for. Women are mercenary at this. You should already have your list of requirements and know they meet them before you approach that individual. That’s what courtship is about.

    As for BillyS’s comment about limiting emotional intimacy, my old pastor and his wife had a policy that you weren’t allowed to exchange gifts until you are already engaged. I think that’s brilliant and we adopted it.

  75. seventiesjason says:

    My dad told me when he wanted to marry my mother, he wrote a very detailed letter to her father in Wales. My gradfather replied and gave his blessing. Remember it was the 1960’s. You just didn’t hop on a jet. Flying took a long time to save for, and was very, very expensive.

  76. earl says:

    ‘What was I thinking being all logical?’

    Tingles aren’t logical. Which is why building a male hierarchy system off them is like building a house on sand.

  77. seventiesjason says:

    Billy.

    Congrats on your Eagle Scout Award and Rank. I awarded on two Eagle Awards in my seven years as a Scoutmaster. The local council office was “pushing me” hard to get as many boys as possible to the Eagle. This was 2010-2016.

    At Scoutmaster district roundtable meetings, I would hear other Scoutmasters tout and talk about their amazing Troops (hey…..it was fun, we all did talk up our respected Scouts, we were proud of them). But we always we “pushed hard” to get as many boys to Eagle. You had Troops where a 13 year-old-boy was getting his Eagle (I used the term ‘paper eagles’ because on paper they were an Eagle Scout, but in maturity, growth, socially adept factors, and physically………they were not really an eagle).

    I took it seriously because “I” was never an Eagle Scout. My father should have been one, but his circumstances in those times (working on a farm, his mother dying, oldest of 13 brothers / sisters) kept him from it, or reaching for it.

    The Eagle has been watered down a lot in the past few decades I am sure. I read what Scouts pursuing The Eagle did back in the 1950’s / 1960’s. It makes many of today’s Eagle projects look like a first grade line drawing in comparison. It’s an honor….not just something you get.

    Former Senator Barry Goldwater’s Eagle Project was taking a solo white-water rafting trek down a part of the Colorado River in Arizona. Super challenging and actually dangerous. This was in the 1920’s before the Hoover Dam. He mapped sections of rapids that few had EVER done. He was only 17.

  78. earl says:

    ‘As for BillyS’s comment about limiting emotional intimacy, my old pastor and his wife had a policy that you weren’t allowed to exchange gifts until you are already engaged.’

    I like that advice too. Dont blind each other with stuff much like you can blind each other through fornication

  79. American says:

    After the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) capitulated to the alt-left homosexual agenda, every member I know left and joined Trail Life USA where they are very happy today.

    Trail Life USA exploded to over 30,000 members since their founding in July, 2013.

    http://www.traillifeusa.com/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_Life_USA

  80. dpmonahan says:

    There is no point in arguing about which social system a Christian man should use to find a wife in place of dating. There is no system anymore. Whatever you do is a crap shoot.

  81. Devon35 says:

    BillyS
    I don’t think eating a healthy diet and exercising makes me better than anyone else. There was time not long ago when this was the norm. The obesity rate is another indicator of a culture in decline. This isn’t a site of liberal women so I’m not going to worry about “fat-shaming.”

  82. squid_hunt says:

    @earl

    I like that advice too. Dont blind each other with stuff much like you can blind each other through fornication

    Their thinking was that if you broke up, it gave you less to mope over. I agree with you, that it can drum up value in the relationship that isn’t there.

  83. Opus says:

    It was the Victorians who invented dating. It began as a kindness but the road to hell being paved with good intentions look what it turned into! If you want an idea of the pre-dating world then I refer you all to your own copy of the writings of Benjamin Franklin. Dating serves, so far as I can see, no useful purpose and is so often used by women as a bait to obtain resources for little outlay. The woman who dates has to some degree settled and dating being a publicly viewable act many women will not want to make public that they have albeit on the most temporary of basis settled.

    I much enjoyed my few years as a Scout. Am happy to report no inappropriate behaviour from the Scout Master. Allowing the homo-sexually inclined to master Scouts can in my view only in our age encourage that said inappropriateness of behaviour. Most men then avoid the mastering of Scouts for fear that they will be tarred with the same brush and then the organisation can only either decline or be appropriated by females which also leads to decline.

    Times are, however, always changing: ‘we know not what we might become’.

  84. Scott says:

    dpmonahan lays down the biggest slab of truth in this thread.

  85. Kevin says:

    Off topic but since others brought up Scouts – I am an eagle and my first and maybe second son will be the last eagles of my line. We are getting ready to quit scouting.

    Scouts is a totally converged organization. Like many institutions as the numbers dwindle instead of accepting it gracefully they flail about looking for new members from their enemies. Scouts WON the lawsuit to exclude gays then betrayed their own principles and let openly gay scouts in. They allow trannies. They now allow girls. The organization doesn’t want to shrink so they think maybe these changes will buy them social capital or attract families that only have daughters.

    The real reasons Scouts is shrinking are not that complicated – the rising generation does not like the outdoors, there are fewer kids per family so they are more invested in other activities, and finally on average white people go camping but other racial groups don’t. All these treads are easy to observe but had to face so they instead grow desperate because all institutions primary motivation is continuation – not any moral principled goals.

    Churches do the same. They see they are failing and men are leaving. Since they buy into the worlds narratives instead of finding out why men leave (men just don’t love God they ridiculously conclude) they chase after the women and make concessions to them and give them power. And the women care about more power not figuring out why they are alienating the young men. Numbers continue to go down and soon they are selling out and becoming church lite. A social club and whatever else to attract new members.

  86. seventiesjason says:

    I would always tell my Scouts “camping is physical, no doubt but a lot of it is ‘up here’ (pointing to my head), you have to keep your cool out in the wilderness at all times. It can and will kill you. It’s not called ‘the wilderness’ for nothing.”

    I also had to intense patience. I was working with city boys. A young Scout on his first real hike (a few miles) sometimes would cry, or get frustrated. Even scared. I could not just “verbally slap him” I had to utilize my Senior Patrol Leader (another older Scout to help encourage, defend agaisnt *some* of the taunting by the other Scouts…….the Scouts needed to be razzed by each other at times. It’s part of team building in a boy-social-order-structure). I also had to remember, “he’s learning. he’s not just naturally an expert. He needs to be challenged, but if I take all the fun and expectation out of, he’ll quit”

  87. Damn Crackers says:

    O’Sullivan’s Law: Any organization not explicitly right-wing will become left-wing over time.

    Churches are no exception.

  88. seventiesjason says:

    Kevin. Congrts on your Eagle Award and Rank. Your sons as well.
    Scouting is more afraid of losing FUNDING and MONEY than actually building young boys into solid young men today

    After girls were admitted. I was done. I just could not compromise anymore…and the Reverence from the Scout Oath and Law……watered down to “feelz” and zero truth

  89. BillyS says:

    Devon,

    I don’t think eating a healthy diet and exercising makes me better than anyone else. There was time not long ago when this was the norm. The obesity rate is another indicator of a culture in decline. This isn’t a site of liberal women so I’m not going to worry about “fat-shaming.”

    More posing. You are doing well. Great. Most are not. It is not a marriage issue in your case, just a self motivation one. Don’t hurt arm patting yourself on the back so much. Quit hiding behind cheap rhetoric as well. Nothing to do with fat shaming. Most men should be thinner, but it is independent of marriage.

    Kevin,

    Dating is a tool to find a marriage partner after the age of around 18-20. Encouraging dating for sport among people older than that is hilarious.

    It is? How many use it for that purpose? Why do so few marriages happen from it if that is true?

    The tinder approach is just as active at 18-20.

    Jason,

    I was the rare Eagle who earned it mostly on my own, but it was in the later 1970s. I was fortunately in a good small troop, though its approach would not work in today’s paranoid environment.

    I managed to help one of my sons get his Eagle, even though he fought it. The other never did (just a project left) and likely laments it now, though we had some serious issues to deal with in those years.

    I am glad to have earned mine and I still like my shoulder patch collection, but I don’t see having any involvement with the BSA now.

    I also went through Woodbadge BTW. I haven’t turned in my beads, but I am not going to do anything with it either.

  90. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jason, you’re obsessed with “looks.” You think women are only attracted to “looks.” And because you can’t get women, you think you’re ugly. But you’re not ugly.

    I don’t think women are attracted to looks. There are plenty of pretty boys, and even tall, attractive men, who can’t get dates. I read a post from a middle-aged drummer in a rock band who was incel all his life. He was in a rock band, and he couldn’t get a woman. And we’ve all seem short, ugly men with beautiful women on their arms.

    It’s hard to describe what attracts women. My best word is “vibes.” Women are attracted to men who exude “dangerous” vibes. Vibes of confidence, dominance, aggression, assertiveness. A primal ability to take charge, rule over the pack, and protect their offspring. Some call it charisma.

    Women seek some strange mix of the right ingredients. Even they can’t name it. Instead, they post long lists of requirements, which don’t entirely match what they’re actually seeking.

    Jason, you can’t get dates because you exude bad vibes. I suspect some women would call you creepy, or whatever. It doesn’t mean you are creepy or bad, but that’s a word women use for unwanted men who are attracted to them.

    I don’t quite understand myself what women want. I only have a general idea of it. But I’ve given up trying to figure women, or to attract them.

  91. Joe says:

    Red Pill Latecomer says:
    “And we’ve all seen short, ugly men with beautiful women on their arms.”
    Very true, but then I realize I’m at the local gentlemen’s club (aka nudie bar).

  92. Pingback: Keep philosophy relevant by teaching students to date: “F”

  93. earl says:

    I agree with you, that it can drum up value in the relationship that isn’t there.

    Yup..and heaven forbid you get married while being in a relationship isn’t as good as the spouses think it is.

    Sex, stuff, feels…they are the icing on the cake of the relationship, they aren’t the cake of the relationship. Marriage is.

  94. seventiesjason says:

    @Billy

    Issues with a teenage boy??? Well I never 😉 My dad jokes with me now “You’re not dead and I’m not in prison for murder…so we got through it!”

    @RPL

    That word “confidence” again, the most subjective word in the English language after “love”
    As for bad vivbes? Who knows at this point. Maybe at one time or period in my life that *could* be argued with merit. College years? Grad school? No way. Early years in California. No. High school…….okay, could concede that. In my full blown addiction, okay…I’ll buy that.

    Since being reborn? No. Since being “involved” and turning my life around at the end of last decade? No. I am eager to please, involved. I’ll ask the uncomforatble questions. I’ll “make a stand” when no one else will. I am articulate considering my IQ handicap. I will work and even take work beneath my potenials and skills to avoid the “shame” of being on Welfare. I “do” things for my own enjoyment. I have interests and hobbies. I know how to dress myself and by my actions, have shown the work Christ “hath completh in me”

    This is fine and wonderful, thank goodness I learned this…….but if you don’t have the looks to “set it off” in a woman within ten seconds of meeting her or whatever…..you’re done. No matter what you do, achieved…….she’s right about her first assesment of you. Changing her mind would be that grave sin on her part. Women are never “wrong” in this modern world when vetting a guy…..and if she is??????? She was “tricked”

    I have seen over and over again in the world, in Christ and faith, out and about. Be deemed good looking or you’re wasting her time. Hence the 80 / 20 thing…..and it may not be that cut n’ dry in all areas of the USA……but it exists. It’s pure folly to think that men want a “pretty” girl and women only, always, and soley look at the “heart” and “his great personality”

  95. earl says:

    It’s hard to describe what attracts women. My best word is “vibes.”

    I’d agree with that too. However just because a guy gives out good ‘vibes’ to women doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. Vibes like tingles don’t tell the whole story or are the foundation of hierarchy.

    I watched an OJ Simpon documentary…I know he was a terrible murderer and very vain…but he had that ‘it’ which attracted women (and how his male friends were under his spell too was amazing) despite the fact they all knew what he did. He is a bad guy who gave off good ‘vibes’.

  96. Don’t understand some of the anti dating emphasis.

    As a Christian, you need to get to know a girl if you want to get married and honestly you don’t have time to wait for society to the right the ship.

    Plus I was around for the whole I kissed dating goodbye craze and it mostly just shut down everything. it seemed to just add layers of complexity and confusion to an already strained structure.

    I’m not defending dating per se, just that the last thing we need is another system or set of rules to follow.

    The problem is personal and character related. Women’s expectations are just crazy high right now, higher than would even make them happy. Imagine if every guy was holding out for a Victoria’s Secret model, it’s sort of like that for women. They take no thought or responsibility. I was 24 before I knew that women could put effort in on a relationship.

    Now I know women have “always” been like that but I think it’s a percentages thing. Kind of like how promiscuity has always been around, but the percentages and numbers have changed.

  97. earl says:

    As a Christian, you need to get to know a girl if you want to get married and honestly you don’t have time to wait for society to the right the ship.

    I agree there has to be something to get to know the person before you get married.

    What dating is or has been for a while is having all the perks of marriage without being married. Sex, gifts, trips, a steady bf/gf to take to wedding dances, even cohabitating. That’s why dating relationships and engagements can last 5-10 years because you get the perks without the commitment…so why change things (coming from a man’s side…a woman would think much differently). The difference between not being married with perks and being married is huge.

  98. @earl

    I dig it, that’s why defining terms is crucial here.

    If you’re a Christian, fornication needs to be off the table. I’m not a puritan, a little kissing or embracing is probably fine honestly, but again, very little.

    It’s just spending some time to get to know her and before marriage you have to get through enough time to see them when they’re for real. Plenty of psychos male and female can act alright for a while but can’t maintain it for more than a certain amount of time.

    I’m wary of checklists and rules that can’t be backed up as well as an asperbergery approach of just analysis and avoiding intuitive sense (in a Thomist sense). Intuitive sense can save your life and I think we ignore it at our peril.

  99. mgtowhorseman says:

    @squid_hunt

    “You realize what you are describing is pretty much exactly the recipe to check for the tingles, right? What does dating have to do with objectively evaluating a mate?

    You don’t have to bat your eyes at each other to know that someone is a trainwreck. You can look at the way they live their life without you in it to do that. How do you they take care of their appearance? How do their parents interact? How do they treat their parents? How did their siblings turn out? What spiritual goals do they have? How do they treat children? Are they career or family oriented? What sort of social standing to do they have? What are their quirks?

    Once you step into dating mode, you are fundamentally on a quest to trick the person you are dating that you are what they’re looking for. Women are mercenary at this. You should already have your list of requirements and know they meet them before you approach that individual. That’s what courtship is about.”

    How can you get all that from swiping on tinder, meeting and jumping in the sack within hours?

    The next morning what do you know about them?

    Don’t care what you call it, spending time outside the sack in some form is needed to chech the things squid quite rightly points out.

    How is that done in the modern scene?

  100. BillyS says:

    Jason,

    My children were also adopted, which makes it much more of a mess. Though I have a decent relationship with my oldest son now, so I should be glad for that. I went through the most trouble with him. I suppose that is a case of being stronger through things that don’t kill us!

    BTW,

    Don’t lament the lack of interested women now. Finding a reliable one is far harder than most think, at least those who don’t post here. I bet you wouldn’t want most who might connect with you now, no matter how attractive they seem to be.

    I wish my body looked like the one in your picture! Though much of that is my own fault. It is quite challenging to change habits much later in life. Keep up your good work in that area!

    I would note that I fully support Devon’s “be healthy” approach, it was the attitude that I was writing about. I am trying to get the motivation for that myself, though I am still going through adapting to being divorced, which makes it more challenging. Not a good excuse, but life is what it is. I wish the path was easier to walk in many areas.

    Green,

    As a Christian, you need to get to know a girl if you want to get married and honestly you don’t have time to wait for society to the right the ship.

    You really think you will get to know a woman by dating one-on-one? Group activities will show them much better than one-on-one. They can put up a front much more easily with just you around.

    It’s just spending some time to get to know her and before marriage you have to get through enough time to see them when they’re for real.

    How does dating help in that area? Wacko women can hide it pretty well. Though an engagement period allows for that too. Being aimed for marriage doesn’t mean you have to marry, but provides some boundaries. Keeping chaste is still a challenge, but that is another issue. It is very challenging even for those trying to be pure in our sex-crazed society.

  101. BillyS says:

    We really need modern matchmakers, but I am not sure how that would really work. It also would not solve the problem of woman deciding wanting out even with a good initial match.

  102. mgtowhorseman says:

    I wouldnt know. Knew my Mrs for four years of high school, hung out with her brother, fixed cars with her dad before I ever dated her.

    That was 30 years of marriage, two kids raised to college, and a paid off house ago.

  103. squid_hunt says:

    @mgtowhorseman

    How is that done in the modern scene?

    I happen to think the best way to win is not to play. Not in the sense of MGTOW, but in not subscribing to the modern methods. That’s crazy.

    I don’t believe that it is as futile as it is often presented here and other places. I don’t think all women are evil and I don’t think every church is corrupt and broken and not worth engaging in. As I said, you are gonig to have to stand back and look objectively. What makes a good woman and which women have that? Start there.

    If your response is that there are no good women out there, then I have no idea.

  104. Novaseeker says:

    Jason —

    The question though is this: how do you explain the legions of physically unattractive men who are married, despite also not being wealthy or famous or what have you? If you go to Wal-Mart, you’ll see plenty of them. Most of these guys don’t have a lot of “charm”, either, but they got married. Most people do get married, and many people who are married, of both sexes, are not physically attractive. How do you account for that?

  105. seventiesjason says:

    Eh……it’s really bordering on the “doesn’t matter anymore” kind of thing. I am getting to age now where I could find a cure for cancer…….save million upon millions of people and women would be all “Yeah, ummm that’s great but I just don’t feel a spark……..someday a great gal though is gonna walk into your life…blah blah blah”

    If I was good looking? No problem. I wouldn’t have to find a cure for cancer…..I could just tell a sort-a-dirty joke and that would be enough “vetting” for husband material.

    It’s silly. It’s tiresome of me actually……..been dealing with this since I became a teenager. I am just older. The fashions changed. The styles of music. Cars………..

    At this point all of the women my age for the most part are getting ready to send their kids off to college or the military…..are remarried, and remarried, or an “empowered” single mom who still demands the right man to stand up to her and lead her, but you know….he still has to make that spark happen in a few seconds or it would never, never, never work……but we could be great “friends” I am sure.

    The women under 35 I am invisible to, and I should be if truth be told. I am a man pushing fifty. Yes, I know countless men are gettin’ nookie day and night from all these *hot* younger women. You see, I just need some “confidence” because you know……”looks don’t matter to women, its a guys awesome personality that they are attracted to………..” LOL!

    It’s not fair…..it REALLY isn’t……..the men that never had a problem dating or getting sex when they were younger cannot understand or comprehend. It’s always “my” fault on this according to them. It’s not. The married men don’t get it. They view and take the grizzly bear story of “I thought she was gorgeous, and I walked right up and introduced myself. simple. that’s all you have to do. Women don’t bite and they are flattered when a guy approaches them, They know it takes guts, and they find that attractive.” They don’t.

    I don’t have an answer or a solution. It’s tiresome to you all I know. I just want to ask God that if “looks” don’t matter to him, why did he make it so important in this world and life?

  106. thedeti says:

    This thread is depressing me.

    I am involved in Boy Scouting. I am Arrow of Light, Life Scout, Vigil Honor. I did a lot. in the 1980s it was very formative for me, for better or for worse.

    I weep for the death of a once-great institution. The BSA has lost its way if what Jason has said is true, what happened at the national council. When I left BSA as a youth in 1986, it was a very different institution than it is today. Today, women can be cubmasters and scoutmasters. Women over 21 can be inducted into the Order of the Arrow. And now girls can join Cub Scouts and Boy Scout troops, and earn rank. There is no place a boy can be only with men, to stand alongside them, to learn from them, to earn a man’s respect. There is no place a boy can escape the influence/watchful eye of women. Now, instead of earning men’s respect, he has to earn mommy’s approval – even on campouts.

    I am very sad today.

  107. @BillyS

    I see what you’re saying I’m just saying I saw it in practice at the one of the largest evangelical universities in the world and it doesn’t really work. Group activities are great and all but there’s no real substitute. It’s a great way for a girl to get attention without having to make a decision while she’s angling for the top dog guy (who’s playing the exact same game). Eventually top dog picks one and in the meantime nothing happens for everybody else. In the meantime women get at least some of what they want, male attention, while holding out hope and the men just engage in competitive display behaviors which usually creates some bad blood for the guys in the group anyway.

    No one really goes off the market until the end game plays out, which can take forever, so no assortative mating takes place outside the very top.

    That’s a general statement and it doesn’t cover everything and every circumstance but there it is.

    There’s no other way to see if a girl might be open to you personally until you actually ask her and she goes for it or not. Again that’s not perfect either. It’s more about trade offs than solutions. By forcing a certain amount of pairing you avoid what is in practice a kind of chaste polygamy dynamic (multiple women oriented towards one dude).

    And yes some people are olympicly capable of deception, but just playing percentages I’m saying work it out a bit.

  108. Scott says:

    There is no place a boy can be only with men, to stand alongside them, to learn from them, to earn a man’s respect.

    I was in a troop that was very regimented, very structured.

    What I remember most fondly about that experience was exactly what you mention. I remember going to meetings for several weeks leading up to hiking/camping trips (the kind where you pack everything you will be needing on a pack miles into the wilderness) and the scout masters would be very serious about it. We would do several small-ish hikes like that leading up to big one every year, to make sure everyone was conditioned and had the kinks in their own systems worked out.

    I remember thinking the men were demigods. To be challenged by them to carry that much weight into the woods–no radios, no nothing–just our orienteering and survival skills to get us there and home and to be told that we could do it was incredible. And then watching the way moral, goog men behave outside the presence of women while trying to train us up into manhood. I was maybe 12, 13? I wanted to join that club.

    This has to return somehow, even if it is effectively illegal.

  109. seventiesjason says:

    Women have been Cubmasters and Scoutmasters since the mid 1990’s. The empowering excuse used was “some of our greatest men are women!” and the usual “where are the men, why won’t they step up and lead these boys? The women are showing up and doing amazing things!”

    I’ll tell you where the men were. Most were working. Most were in the military sent off to defend “national interests”

    Most even with a degree had half the buying power of their fathers a generation before. Many were dating and having fun. Many were not involved because of the delayed marriage thing. In the 1990’s everyone was “shocked” that the first marriage for a college degreed man crept up to 27! It was an outrage at the time!!!!! The church was gonna do something about it………oh wait, there is a HUGE swath of people coming up in age. We’ll win them, this lazy ‘Gen X” generation is lost!

    Many men too just did not see the appeal of Scouting unless they had a son involved. Understandable.

    Finally, the old guard. The Scouters of the 1950’s-1970’s were running the show. Many spent more time talking about the “good ol days” instead of giving, challenging and expecting the boys to naturally step up………most were coming from a single parent home. Really hard to motivate when “mommy” won’t the son get a scrape or scratch. Really hard to make a challenging organization when we have to have every special accomodation, need, and give-everyone-trophy or someones self esteem is gonna be crippled forever

  110. thedeti says:

    Earl:

    “Sex, stuff, feels…they are the icing on the cake of the relationship, they aren’t the cake of the relationship. Marriage is.”

    You can’t have marriage without sex. At least, you can’t start out that way. Not for men you can’t.

    Marriage is a sexual relationship. Inherently sexual. Sex is the one thing I do with my wife that I cannot do and am expected not to do with anyone else. A marriage was not a marriage until it was consummated, and consummation means the husband and wife have had sex, which, in OT times, was proven with the husband and friends displaying the bloody bedlinens for the community to see – yes, she was a virgin, and yes, they did the deed.

  111. Scott says:

    Kind of have to agree with Deti on that one. A marriage without sex would be severely strained and handicapped. To characterize sex as the icing really misses the mark there.

  112. thedeti says:

    “And then watching the way moral, goog men behave outside the presence of women while trying to train us up into manhood.”

    Yes. So now, it will be mommy’s approval and not men’s respect.

    So now, instead of focusing on advancement and achievement and delegating and organizing, and getting things done with the other boys and men around you, it will be trying to impress the girls around you so that maybe you can get laid. Instead of getting things done, they’ll be trying to get their d*cks wet.

    Instead of me as a Scouter trying to teach boys and get them to concentrate and to work, I’ll be trying to keep them from having sex with the girls in the next campsite over. And the boys who don’t get a girl will be dejected and pissed. And the boys who do won’t get anything done and will lord it over the boys who don’t.

  113. earl says:

    You can’t have marriage without sex. At least, you can’t start out that way. Not for men you can’t.

    True…perhaps I didn’t describe it well enough. My point was many want the perks of the marriage without the commitment of marriage. Hence all icing and no cake.

  114. thedeti says:

    I was always told in Scouting: There’s a time and a place for all that. Time and a place for dating, girls, sex, all the rest of it.

    This is not that time or place. Here, now, you put your goddamn head down and work and cooperate and delegate and organize and think it through and get things done. This is the time for you to teach younger boys and learn from older boys. This is the time for you to learn from men and earn their respect, so you can become a man like them. Girls and sex is for later and elsewhere.

  115. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    “And we’ve all seen short, ugly men with beautiful women on their arms.”

    Very true, but then I realize I’m at the local gentlemen’s club (aka nudie bar).

    Not just nudie bars. I live in Los Angeles. Lots of (mostly Jewish) short men are producers, agents, managers, studio executives, etc. They have no trouble attracting tall, beautiful starlets.

    Although, many of Hollywood’s Jewish power players — top agents, producers, CEOs, etc. — have gotten taller over the generations. This is because they’re descended from short studio bosses from the 1920s and 1930s, who married tall starlets. And this pattern repeated with every generation.

    I’m sure plenty of women threw themselves at Harvey Weinstein, even if they hated him while doing it.

  116. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    earl; just because a guy gives out good ‘vibes’ to women doesn’t mean he’s a good guy.

    True. By “good vibes” I don’t mean a “good man.” I mean the vibes that attract women.

  117. thedeti says:

    @ Nova:

    “The question though is this: how do you explain the legions of physically unattractive men who are married, despite also not being wealthy or famous or what have you? If you go to Wal-Mart, you’ll see plenty of them. Most of these guys don’t have a lot of “charm”, either, but they got married. Most people do get married, and many people who are married, of both sexes, are not physically attractive. How do you account for that?”

    No dispute as to the facts there. But what you’re ignoring is:

    –the fact that these ugly people are married to each other does not mean they care about each other, love each other, have happy marriages, have good sex, have frequent sex, or have sex at all. The fact that a man is married does not mean he’s happily married or that he gets anything out of the marriage. Marriage is a much, much better deal for women than it is for men. Women get a lot more out of marriage than men do, and women have many more incentives to marry.

    –women marry for all sorts of reasons, sexual attraction being only one of them. We all know women (even not-very-attractive women) who have married not very attractive men, and sexual attraction was not one of the reasons they chose those not-very-attractive men.

    –men marry for only two reasons – regular, frequent, good sex, and because they want families (and we all know how men get families — usually the old-fashioned way).

    –Most of the People of WalMart are older, and had some sexual attractiveness when they were younger. Particularly the women.

    Most marriages today are functional, but that’s about it. I wouldn’t say they’re “good” or “happy”. I’d say they work, but not well – they work well enough to stay together.

  118. Anonymous Reader says:

    greenmantlehoyos
    By forcing a certain amount of pairing you avoid what is in practice a kind of chaste polygamy dynamic (multiple women oriented towards one dude).

    “Chaste polygamy” is a more refined version of the term “carousel watcher”. I can see this playing out in some groups of college aged people from time to time. It’s rather like an amped-up version of the “pining for him” that’s common in romantic fiction all the way back to Jane Austen.

    Unfortunately in those social circles where two or even one “date” is assumed to mean “Doing It” those girls who prefer to wait for marriage [*] are just not going to “date” at all. They’ll stay in groups and even pine for some man. But they won’t “date” in any sense of the word.

    [*] Or more realistically, engagement ring, even in churchgoing circles.

  119. Novaseeker says:

    Most marriages today are functional, but that’s about it. I wouldn’t say they’re “good” or “happy”. I’d say they work, but not well – they work well enough to stay together.

    I agree with all of that, but I was challenging the idea that Jason has that his issues with women are all about looks — that can’t really be the case, because homely men can get women — not very attractive women, but women.

  120. Joe says:

    Sure seems like a lot of bitterness here.
    As for me… 30 years this week. Just got done zip lining in Puerto Rico. Now on to Grand Turk for diving.
    Two great kids all grown up.
    Life is good.

  121. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    thedeti You can’t have marriage without sex. At least, you can’t start out that way. Not for men you can’t. Marriage is a sexual relationship. Inherently sexual.

    Scott: A marriage without sex would be severely strained and handicapped. To characterize sex as the icing really misses the mark there.

    I suppose that’s true for many men. But as a never married, I long for emotional intimacy more than for sex.

    I want what Aristotle called, “another self.” Yes, a wife who’s a best friend. A woman who’ll always listen, understand, sympathize, defend, support, and comfort me. (I don’t mean physically defend or financially support — but socially and emotionally.)

    Given a choice between a beautiful, loving wife who can’t have sex (perhaps due to cancer), and a bitter, cold harridan who’s always publicly mocking me, but who’s great in bed, every night, I’d pick the former.

    Now, you might say it’s unlikely to achieve emotional intimacy without sex, or that if the sex is great then the wife will likely be supportive. Maybe. But being a reluctant MGTOW in his 50s, I yearn for the emotional intimacy rather than the sex.

  122. Boxer says:

    I was challenging the idea that Jason has that his issues with women are all about looks — that can’t really be the case, because homely men can get women — not very attractive women, but women.

    I expect he’ll correct me, but I think Jason is bemoaning the lack of the sorts of women that a decent Christian brother would find marriage-worthy.

    Sure, he can go out to the night club, and dance with hot women (exactly the kinds of women I like to take home for fun and games, incidentally), but he’s not looking merely to get his sexual needs met. He wants a wife, as described in his religious texts. That’s a pretty tall order!

    Boxer

  123. thedeti says:

    Boxer:

    I suppose that’s true for many men. But as a never married, I long for emotional intimacy more than for sex.

    I’d venture this is because:

    –sex has come easily for you. You can easily get sex from a variety of women.

    –You’ve become jaded because sex comes so easily for you. Women are all the same – faithless, honor-less, dishonest, predictable. You’ve seen them in all their ignominy and vainglory, all their base-ness, all their flesh, all their ugly, fallen humanity. Quite gross, yes?

    –you’ve not met a woman who can give you “emotional intimacy” because none of the women you’ve had sex with are capable of it and even if they were, you wouldn’t want what “intimacy” they have to offer anyway.

  124. thedeti says:

    Sex isn’t important when you can get lots of it. Sex becomes pretty damn important when you can’t get it or when the person who’s supposed to be giving it to you refuses to do so.

  125. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    thedeti, you’re quoting me, not Boxer. And sex has never come easily for me. so your theory’s wrong.

  126. Anon says:

    Novaseeker,

    I agree with all of that, but I was challenging the idea that Jason has that his issues with women are all about looks — that can’t really be the case, because homely men can get women — not very attractive women, but women.

    It is obviously not the case. Jason has many advantages over other men, and I find it almost impossible to believe that he has never kissed a girl (a much lower bar than sex, which itself is not that hard). He might be the only 6’4″ former bartender in the world who has not kissed a girl.

    So Jason, did you follow the advice that Dalrock and others gave you? If not, where is the hesitation?

  127. seventiesjason says:

    What advice that Darlock and the otehrs gave me?

    Darlock suggetsed I move to another country. Everyone else said “sorry, I wish could help you” or “go to alt.seduction and forget the bad stuff like being a PUA….use it in a Christian way and it will work out”

  128. seventiesjason says:

    Beauty may be skin deep in women, and it may be indeed in the eye of the beholder…..but ugly or not attractive goes to the bone sadly.

  129. seventiesjason says:

    “Kissing a girl is not that hard”

    Okay. Coming from someone who has probably kissed many. Easy for you to say

  130. earl says:

    Sex becomes pretty damn important when you can’t get it or when the person who’s supposed to be giving it to you refuses to do so.

    I’d venture to guess the emotional intimacy was being refused too.

    I wouldn’t make it an either-or case. I’d like to have both. However there are going to be times in a marriage where you legit can’t…(health issues and the like…not the headache scenerio). If you don’t have some sort of emotional intimacy either or you at least like each other, it’s going to make it that much harder.

  131. thedeti says:

    RPL:

    My bad. I stand corrected.

  132. Anon says:

    Jason,

    People here want to help you. I seem to recall Dalrock and Deti giving you good advice.

    Again, I find it impossible to believe that a 6’4″ former bartender has not kissed a girl.

    What do you think your main disadvantage is? Most are fixable.

    i) Is your posture bad, negating your height advantage?
    ii) Is your face unusually ugly (from your photo, I say no)? Post a picture on amihotornot.com. If you can get higher than a 5.0, this is not what is holding you back. Plenty of good-looking guys do badly with women because they don’t escalate and don’t recognize signals women send.
    iii) Is your voice unusually effeminate or bad-sounding? This can improve with practice.
    iv) Do you have bad breath or BO that you are not aware of? This can be fixed.
    v) Are you unable to communicate with women platonically? Do you stutter a lot? Do you find it hard to make eye contact? Does your posture contract in shyness?
    vi) Are you missing fingers, or an ear, or some other disfigurement?

    I can’t think of much else that could possibly be a structural reason for your unbelievably poor results. Many of the above points are fixable. You know as well as I that you have seen a lot of short, fat, not rich, men with pretty women. You have also seen a lot of short Asian and Hispanic men with pretty white women.

    So do any of the above 6 disadvantages apply to you?

  133. seventiesjason says:

    In fact Anon…I will not have this thread again derailed by you or me. Go to my blog, post on the comments about Game Over I&II

    Will be happy to debate you there

  134. seventiesjason says:

    Ummm…..Anon…your memory is really bad. Dalrock suggested I move to another country. Deti told me to learn “game”

    That is what counts today in the world for “men hel[ping men” and in the Christian world it sbecause I have “sin” in my life that I just have not dealt with. Hands washed like Pilate to say they “did something”

    Go to my blog. Will debate you fully there

  135. seventiesjason says:

    Here: https://lifeinairstripone.wordpress.com/

    If you want to debate me. Let’s go. If you just want to smear me and “neg” me (which is used not by men on women, but by men on men 99% of the time) let’s go.

  136. earl says:

    Coming from someone who has probably kissed many. Easy for you to say

    I’ve kissed a handful of women…and I’m certainly not the best at reading signals. But they give you clear signals and you just make the move. And if not you can always ask. They’ll either reciprocate or tell you no.

  137. seventiesjason says:

    or laugh in your face in front of your peers and other women

  138. Anonymous Reader says:

    To circle back around to a comment up thread, the rules of “courting” and later “dating” served to push young men and women into pairing up, and indirectly led to assortive mating. “Every man gets a chance to have his own wife” is fundamental to any patriarchal system. That only works when women are in some way dependent on men for some aspect of daily life, directly dependent – feminists blog on websites maintained by men, hosted on servers designed and assembled and built and kept running by men, powered by electricity generated by men – and all that is like a cloud in the sky far over them.

    When women had to be dependent on men for something real and immediate, be it physical protection, physical shelter, abilty to get food, etc. there were limits on behavior. With the glut of resources (Sorry, Larry, you’re wrong about that) available in the modern world it is quite possible for the average woman to be her own beta, and therefore not directly need a man.

    Thus she is freed from what she needs to go for what she wants, and the only restraints on her behavior are those that she self-imposes. The results range widely, but definitely they aren’t quite what the girlies expected.

    Hence we get aging, feminist, professors yearning for “good old days”, i.e. when said feminist professor was pre-Wall and could turn men’s heads wherever she went.

    In the mean time, the best thing that fathers can do for their daughters is train them to submit. This should be easier in churchgoing families, but “ought” and “is” are not the same word.

    Dating is dead. Society has kissed it goodbye, in favor of carousel-riding hookups at one extreme and involuntary celibacy at the other. Each man and women has to come up with something in the middle on his/her own, or at best as part of a small social circle.

    It’s pretty ugly, but that’s what I see. Pretending otherwise is just living in a fantasy.

  139. thedeti says:

    Jason, I don’t remember if I told you to learn Game, but if I did, I want you to know I had only good intentions and a willingness to help.

    I can assure you your physical appearance isn’t the issue here. Your physical appearance is good enough to get you over the hump. It doesn’t have to be perfect, or even good. It just has to be good enough. There’s something else going on in your case.

    Anyway. I’ll check out your blog.

  140. earl says:

    or laugh in your face in front of your peers and other women

    So. I’ve had women laugh at me before…you have to get to a point where you have thicker skin to let it roll off your back and not take it so personally. And that’s not really game either…that’s just figuring out that there’s going to be plenty of people who will try to push your emotional buttons.

  141. Oscar says:

    @ seventiesjason on April 18, 2018 at 3:45 pm

    “Ummm…..Anon…your memory is really bad. Dalrock suggested I move to another country.”

    Dalrock gave you a lot more advice than just “move to another country”. He even offered to correspond with you privately, and you flatly refused.

    You keep slandering men who offer help, then you complain that no one is helping you.

  142. thedeti says:

    And to all our detractors lurking in the shadows, be advised:

    The world is full of Jasons – frustrated men in pain who want something and no one ever showed or taught them how to get it. Everyone here is to blame. Politicians who went along with the feminist agenda in order to not piss off Mommy/Wifey. Apostate spiritual “leaders” who created heresies to avoid “Wives, submit to your husbands”. The women who went along with this, abusing, avoiding and divorce raping good men in the process. The feminized men and civic leaders who also went along with this, mostly to avoid pissing off Mommy/Wifey. Sunday School teachers. Schoolteachers. Scout leaders.

    You created Jason and millions like him. I blame all of YOU.

    If you want to help men like Jason, stop lying to them. Start helping them. Start teaching them, training them, bringing them along. Stop drugging them with Ritalin and antipsychotics they don’t need. Stop threatening them with college expulsions and career ending Inquisitions for meekly asking some woman to get a drink. Stop browbeating them for not asking you out, when you’ve been screaming from the rooftops that men should NOT ask you out. Stop browbeating them for avoiding you when you’ve been screaming at them for years that you hate them and don’t want them.

    This is your fault. Jason and the men you created have to fix it. But I’m under no illusions whatsoever as to what got us here, and who created these men.

  143. Novaseeker says:

    With the glut of resources (Sorry, Larry, you’re wrong about that) available in the modern world it is quite possible for the average woman to be her own beta, and therefore not directly need a man.

    AR —

    Right, although I would say it’s more that it allows women to avoid dependence on a *specific*, individual man. Women remain dependent on men in the aggregate for a whole host of things, but unless they are personally dependent on one specific man for some important thing, they can be their own beta, hypergamy goes into overdrive, and we see the environment we do now.

  144. seventiesjason says:

    Not slandering Oscar. His help was “really don’t know what to tell you…move to another country. I would correspond with you if you would like” he freely admitted he ddn’t know a lot.

    Why would I waste his time? What is gonna tell me really?

    Your advice was “that you didn’t waste time, you got amazing degrees, did amazing things and I did waste time”

    Others told me to go to “alt.seduction” and ignore the mean and not nice things, and just use the stuff that could help.

    Two others suggested plastic surgurey. They were not being funny.

    So I am not slandering. The advice I was given was this……..and you men here all gladhand yourselves like your changing the world. You’re not. You will submit EQUALLY to the Cross just like I do.

    So don’t throw this back at me Oscar. I am telling the truth. None of you will walk deeper with a man but you all have the solutions to fixing the church, society, culture, women, and manhood

    If the above answers are all you can do collectively and then back-pat yourselves on “great advice” maybe the large swath of men out there who don’t even know Jesus, and who are in that 80% who are never going to get married or get into very dangerous situations with women deserved what they get.

    Just sayin.

    Now please. Go to my blog and comment there. Not on this thread

  145. earl says:

    If the above answers are all you can do collectively and then back-pat yourselves on “great advice” maybe the large swath of men out there who don’t even know Jesus, and who are in that 80% who are never going to get married or get into very dangerous situations with women deserved what they get.

    Do you want advice about getting a woman interested or promote the Lord? If it’s the latter quit with the ‘woe is me’ with women schitck…it’s taking away your joy.

    The Psalms of David are a great example of promoting the joy a person has because of the Lord.

  146. Anonymous Reader says:

    mark
    I’m on a christian campus right now. The only people really getting married are the very hot couples. Most of the average, plain-jane girls appear to be holding out. They say they don’t like the Christian guys on campus, which is code for most christian young men are not hot enough.

    That could well be the 80 / 20 attraction at work. It could also be carousel riding or carousel watching. Those plain janes will hold out for their preferred pony but likely will settle for what they can get by the age of 27. Some will hold out over 30. Some won’t marry at all but it will be men’s fault, not theirs.

    But never mind explaining it, here is an experiement: take your observation, your “This is what is right in front of me every day” observation and drop it on an alumni of that school who is over 40. Better still if you can drop it on an over 50. Because that’s not how it was in their day, the reaction will be some mix of confusion, denial, and anger at you. Not anger at the situation, not anger at those who enable the situation to continue, but at you. Because you bear bad news.

    Why does this experiment matter? Because the leaders, the advisors, the teachers, the pastors within the church community are often alumni of such schools, but over 40. They can’t possibly give any realistic advice to college aged people so long as they can’t come to grips with the current situation.

    For the most fun, if you enjoy trolling people, drop your insight onto some 60+ year old Boomer. Prepare to hear a lot of words about how things were back when Jimmy Carter was President and how you modern kids just don’t seem to be able to figure things out and blah. Don’t get angry. Don’t get confrontational. Just point out “That’s great, but college isn’t like that anymore” from time to time.

    The professorial article at the top of the posting that Dalrock refers to is not unique. There are plenty of well meaning, totally ignorant, people over 40 who have all sorst of useless advice they are more than happy to hand out. But they won’t listen to anyone on the topic who actually is, y’know, involved in the situation. By “listen” I mean something more than “words bouncing off of eardrums”, I mean “seeking to understand and comprehend what is being said”.

    Boomers won’t trust anyone under 30, ironically

  147. seventiesjason says:

    Knock it off Earl……..

  148. Anon says:

    Jason,

    I am not going to your blog, nor is it my duty to remember the details of what advice Dalrock, Deti and others may have given you two weeks ago. They were trying to help you, as am I.

    Answer my questions. What, exactly, do you think is holding you back? You are above average on a number of key metrics, and not below average on any as per what you have disclosed. But to still not have even kissed a girl (a much lower bar than sex)?

    You are not telling us something. People here want to help you, but many of us are growing suspicious as well.

  149. earl says:

    That’s what I thought.

    Woe is me is not a good way to go through life.

  150. seventiesjason says:

    Anon: “Dalrock and others gave you great advice”
    Anon: “It is not my duty to remember the details of what advice Dalrock, Deti others may have given you two weeks ago

    Don’t talk to me like you talk to one of your hookups.

  151. Anon says:

    Jason, one can remember that lengthy advice was given by people who have in fact helped others in the past, without having to remember every detail.

    The salient point is that you refused to follow even the most basic advice, such as ‘start making small-talk with attractive women during the day with no other objective in mind other than a pleasant, platonic, 1 minute chat’.

    Your commitment to avoidance is astounding. Rarely will you find so many people who want to help you.

    If you feel that the advice in italics was not given before (and find the need to fixate on that), then I am giving you that advice now.

  152. Anon says:

    Oh, and Jason, you still haven’t answered my questions in the 3:42 PM comment that will enable us to pinpoint what is holding you back.

  153. Spike says:

    earl says:
    April 18, 2018 at 5:51 pm
    ”The Psalms of David are a great example of promoting the joy a person has because of the Lord”.

    -Seconded, earl. I made it a daily habit to read the Psalms or Proverbs back when I was suicidally depressed. It did help a lot in lifting me up.
    So did looking outside of yourself – doing something for others. I taught kids martial arts and added learning music for church. These things bring joy.

  154. seventiesjason says:

    They walk away when I say hello. They move away from me. They nod and smile “oh, gotta go” picking up the cellphone. The Barista at Starbucks nods, and smiles says “really busy….bye” but will chat ten minutes with Chad while working.

    So lets move on. I have worked with attractive women. I had secereteries at IBM……..and they were always dating / engaged / married to some other guy…..and they of course never knew any single women………….they were all dating “really amazing guys” the female coworkers I had in Information Development didn’t talk to me unless it involved company business. I didn’t push this, I knew thjat a mistake here even back in the 1990’s could blow my career

    So let’s move back. I worked in GAP during the heyday (late 1980’s-early 1990’s). I had attractive female coworkers. I was seated by manager twice to “leave your co-workers alone, they want to work and they don’t like being hit on by you” but they loved being hit on by Chad 😉

    Let’s go sideways. Church and varied support activities. The few attractive women are the younger ones. They call me “dad” as a joke / put down / and endearment because I am old enough to be their dad.

    I cannot go through the nighclub scene / bartending period. Usually the women were drunk at the bar, fallinmg out of their dress, makeup running from crying and demnading “what did you do with my purse! You stole my purse!”

    Arguing over the bill when closing out “Look, that Cosmo was not too good, I shouldn’t have to pay for it / but that really hot guy said he got this drink….you rememberr him / F*CK YOU I want the manager…….this bill is wrong. You overcharged me for the vodka. I wanted Chopin, not Grey Goose!!!! I TOLD YOU! Get your F*CKING MANAGER!”

    Want more?

  155. seventiesjason says:

    I saw your questions. Irefuse to ansewer them. Because looks don’t matter anyway………right????? A man like you would also be very cruel to me, and it would be cheered on by the rest of the vegetables here

  156. Oscar says:

    @ seventiesjason says:
    April 18, 2018 at 5:09 pm

    “Not slandering Oscar.”

    You’re definitely slandering. To slander is to make false, damaging statements about another person. You made a false statement about Dalrock, just as you’ve made false statements about me, and others. That’s slander.

    “… he freely admitted he ddn’t know a lot.”

    No kidding. It’s impossible to know a lot about a stranger on the internet. That’s why he offered to correspond with you privately. You refused his help.

    “Why would I waste his time?”

    How do you know it would be a waste of his time? Whom do you think is a better judge of what is or is not a waste of Dalrock’s time, you, or Dalrock? Why would he offer if he thought it was a waste of his time?

    “What is gonna tell me really?”

    I don’t know, and neither do you, until you take him up on his offer. So, if you actually want help, why did you refuse when Dalrock offered it?

    “Your advice was ‘that you didn’t waste time, you got amazing degrees, did amazing things and I did waste time'”

    That, right there, is slander. That was not my advice. It was my response to one of your many false accusations. We never got to any advice because you kept making false accusations. Nor did I ever state anything about “amazing degrees”. If I did, then you should be able to provide a link to that quote. If you can’t, that’s more slander.

    “So I am not slandering.”

    You are, as I’ve already pointed out, and here’s more.

    ” ..and you men here all gladhand yourselves like your changing the world.”

    I’ve never, not once, claimed I’m “changing the world”. Nor have I ever read a post in which Dalrock claimed he’s “changing the world”. If you have, can you provide a link? If you can’t provide a link, it’s more slander.

    “I am telling the truth.”

    Then provide a link. Otherwise, your claim is more slander.

    “None of you will walk deeper with a man… ”

    Dalrock offered to “walk deeper” with you, and you refused, then slandered him.

    “… but you all have the solutions to fixing the church, society, culture, women, and manhood”

    I’ve never, not once, claimed that I “have the solutions to fixing the church, society, culture, women, and manhood”. To my knowledge, neither has Dalrock. If you’ve read otherwise, then provide a link. If you can’t, that’s more slander.

    “If the above answers are all you can do collectively… ”

    Again, you don’t know what advice Dalrock would’ve given you if you’d taken him up on his offer.

    “… and then back-pat yourselves on ‘great advice’… ”

    I never claimed that I give “great advice”, but if I did make such a claim, you should be able to provide a link. If you can’t, that’s more slander. I did state that Dalrock gives great advice, and I stand by that statement. But when Dalrock offered to correspond with you privately, you refused, so you can’t know either way. Why, again, if you actually want help, did you refuse his help?

  157. seventiesjason says:

    Wow. A lawyer too!

  158. seventiesjason says:

    I guess I am going to have to bookmark every statement from now. I’ll expect the same from all of you as well……just to be “fair” wouldn’t want to “slander” someone

  159. Oscar says:

    If I’ve slandered you in some way, then show me.

    By the way, you answered exactly zero of my questions. If you actually want help, why did you refuse Dalrock’s help when he offered it?

  160. seventiesjason says:

    I don’t have to explain that to you Osacr.

  161. seventiesjason says:

    Look, take this to the comments section on my blog…..I get really tired here of getting riled up by one or two of you and then you gangpile. Let’s no do it on this thread. I’ll take your abuse on my own blog

  162. Gunner Q says:

    mark @ April 17, 2018 at 5:54 pm:
    “I’m on a christian campus right now. The only people really getting married are the very hot couples. Most of the average, plain-jane girls appear to be holding out.”

    That was my college experience back around Y2K. I went in being warned that most of the girls would be looking for their MRS degree but in situ, the girls were all remarkably platonic and gave the impression of taking their studies seriously. To the point where I wondered where the secret American breeding grounds were.

    Hint to my old self: not in the Math department.

  163. Oscar says:

    @ seventiesjason says:
    April 18, 2018 at 7:07 pm

    “I don’t have to explain that to you Osacr.”

    No, you don’t. But an accurate explanation would help you and everyone who’s trying to help you. So, if you really do want help (as you’ve claimed many times), why did you refuse Dalrock’s help when he offered to help you?

  164. seventiesjason says:

    Me explaining on this thread why I didn’t want to correspond PRIVATELY with Dalrock would help ME? Translation: we’re a bucnh men and we want to hear all the gory details and fermented kittens and thank God that we’re not THAT guy.

    I don’t have to explain ANY reason why I decided not take up his polite offer.

    You’re in the military. If something is “need to know” and someone doesn’t give you the information then “you were not in the need to know”

    Grow up

  165. Scott says:

    Eject! Eject!

  166. CSI says:

    @BillyS
    Do you really believe you can’t learn something about another without one-on-one dating?

    So people hang out in groups, a young man sees a girl her likes, talks to her without being alone with her, approaches her father/guardian, then begins courtship. They are not left unchaperoned until after the wedding. That’s an interesting idea, not sure if it work though. As greenmantlehoyos pointed out, group only dating often doesn’t lead to the sort of pairing off that could result in marriage. Its interesting that the Mormon church, which takes chastity very seriously, encourages one-on-one dating for adults. Their experience too is that group dating often doesn’t result in marriage.

    Who said you can’t see your spouse before the wedding day? That is a big distortion of the idea of arranged marriages or true courtship.

    That’s how it works, or at least used to work, in parts of the Moslem world. You’re right I don’t think it ever worked like that in Europe though.

    @Devon35
    The obesity rate is another indicator of a culture in decline.

    Its an indicator of a very resource rich culture. Most people get most of their exercise through work and other daily activities, and of course more jobs are sedentary, there’s labor saving devices, and more people are driving. But weight gain is mostly down to food, and here we see food and advertising companies have gotten very good at convincing people to buy and eat food they don’t need, which they can do as food is cheaper to produce than its ever been. You can probably trace it back to the early 1970s with the introduction of “value meals”. Who do you blame? People for not being able to perfectly resist their evolved instincts, or companies for following their own capitalistic impulses?

  167. PokeSalad says:

    Woe is me is not a good way to go through life.

    Jason loves attention.

  168. Anon says:

    Vastly off-base accusations tend to be projection on the part of the accuser.

    I just wanted to remind everyone of that.

  169. Oscar says:

    @ seventiesjason says:
    April 18, 2018 at 7:35 pm

    “Me explaining on this thread why I didn’t want to correspond PRIVATELY with Dalrock would help ME?”

    Being honest about why you reject the help you repeatedly claim you want – then slander the men who offer to help you – would help you. Or, you could continue your slander. For example…

    “Translation: we’re a bucnh men and we want to hear all the gory details and fermented kittens and thank God that we’re not THAT guy.”

    That’s more slander, which is the exact opposite of honesty. So, how about some honesty for a change? If you really do want help (as you’ve claimed many times), why did you refuse Dalrock’s help when he offered to help you?

  170. seventiesjason says:

    Oscar. None of your business why I declined Dalrock of his polite offer. I still don’t understand why now its slander because I won’t tell you. Again. When I have asked for help:

    Move to a foreign country / get a better job / learn Game / get plastic surgurey / go to alt. seduction and ignore all the bad un-Christian stuff / I can’t help you / ask someone in your circle of friends

    I still don’t understand telling all the men on this thread on why I did not accept his polite offer will somehow “help you all to help me”

    I’m not a fool’s fool to tell you all this.

    Dalrock admitted himself he didn’t really know of what he could offer me would even be of help.

    ’nuff said

  171. Scott says:

    Even though my eyes are bleeding, I still…can’t…look away..

  172. seventiesjason says:

    Careful Scott, you will be accused of slander, because we all know your eyes are not really bleeding 😉

  173. Lost Patrol says:

    Is there such a thing as an irrecoverable thread?

  174. earl says:

    Jason loves attention.

    I don’t know about attention…but I’ve seen people like that before. They seek advice to try and improve their lot in life, but then subsequently reject all of it because they prefer the ‘woe is me’.

    My 2 cents to Jason would be continue to follow the path of the Lord, get some thicker skin, and drop the ‘woe is me because I haven’t had success with women’ act. God isn’t going to judge you based on whether you kissed a woman or not. That should be the individual you care about the most. And I’m not trying to beat him up…I used to judge myself WAAAAY to harshly on my limited success with women and thought little about whether my life was following God’s will. It robbed my joy quite a bit focusing too much on the wrong thing.

  175. info says:

    ”Beauty may be skin deep in women”

    God designed this preference for beauty:
    http://socialpathology.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/facial-aesthetics-implications-for-art.html

    It is objective and is only assessing the suitability of the opposite sex(especially female) for reproduction. That’s the hard truth.

    God also designed female sexual preference as well. Its only in our fallen world that it has been corrupted into destructive lusts. Just as gluttony is the distortion for the desire for good food.

  176. seventiesjason says:

    Lost Patrol: I mentioned several times to take this my blog, post on comments and I will freely discuss this. That animated post is bit trite.

    Earl: That is inaccurate but I’ll let it slide.

  177. Scott says:

    yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are no i’m not yes you are

  178. seventiesjason says:

    Earl, do you really think getting plastic surgurey is a valid option? Do you really think moving to some foreign country is viable at my age? I did the third world when I was younger and it was a HARD nine months. Do you confidently endorse getting a better job will get me a wife?

    If so. Ignore this. If not don’t call it “woe is me” because plenty of men…..in fact just about all found someone and had plenty o practice before they got married. Found the one. Whatever.

    I know who I am in Christ. I serve. I witness. I attest. I show up. I do. I know what He did in my life. I am reminded of this daily.

  179. Anon says:

    Earl, do you really think getting plastic surgurey is a valid option? Do you really think moving to some foreign country is viable at my age? I did the third world when I was younger and it was a HARD nine months. Do you confidently endorse getting a better job will get me a wife?

    I am quite certain that none out of Dalrock, Deti, Novaseeker, or myself ever gave Jason this advice.

  180. earl says:

    That is inaccurate but I’ll let it slide.

    What’s inaccurate about it?

    Earl, do you really think getting plastic surgurey is a valid option? Do you really think moving to some foreign country is viable at my age? I did the third world when I was younger and it was a HARD nine months. Do you confidently endorse getting a better job will get me a wife?

    No…but I think putting too much focus on what you haven’t done with women is robbing your joy in the Lord. Seriously…read over the Psalms like prayer. Reading what David says about the God we have and what He does for us…I don’t know how you could not have that type of joy he did after that. That’s real joy…not some game.

  181. seventiesjason says:

    Anon: Part of Dalrock’s advice was moving to a foreign country….just making that crystal clear. The other suggestions were indeed getting plastic surgurey. Getting a better job / career (another piece of Dalrock’s advice actually)

  182. earl says:

    So did looking outside of yourself – doing something for others. I taught kids martial arts and added learning music for church. These things bring joy.

    Yeah…those things are rewarding and bring joy. It’s something I’m noticed a lot is that many people are lacking real joy. You are attracted to people who actually have it.

  183. Scott says:

    The other day I was playing marbles on the floor with my daughter and I shit you not, one of the marbles bounced just perfectly into the cats mouth and we had to do the Heimlich maneuver to get it out. It was friggin crazy.

  184. seventiesjason says:

    Dalrock’s partial reply to me:

    “Based on my understanding of the area you live, women are going to be looking for a man who earns quite a bit of money. With that in mind, my suggestion would be to consider what job path would allow you to support a family, and where you want to seek a wife. Most places in the US would be easier to earn enough be considered husband material than where you currently are, but I think you would still need to make a fairly good living. This could be a challenge, and more importantly might take longer than I think you would prefer. Another option would be to consider relocating to a country where the material expectations of a husband are lower and find a way to earn a living locally. It would be even better if that location had more traditional marriage laws to limit your exposure to divorce theft. Ex patting has its own challenges, but as a single man with relatively few ties holding you down it might be something you find attractive.”

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it Anon

    Please don’t make me go back and post the rest of the advice I was given 🙂

  185. Spike says:

    “The longer we stretch the process (courtship) out, the more ridiculous it becomes….”
    This sentence reminds me of the modern wedding.
    Both husband and wife are in their mid to late 30s. Likely they have lived together for for years and they marry because no one else shows up, or, a last-minute baby needs an intact marriage.
    The ceremony is officiated by a celebrant. The authority is the State. The music glorifies Romantic Love.
    Mostly it is a sterile, barren and joyless affair. There is very little if anything to celebrate.

  186. I posted some broader comments based on Dalrock’s thoughts about Cronin’s lectures (I was less charitable than him about Cronin):
    https://fabiusmaximus.com/2018/04/18/cronin-teaches-students-to-date/

    A commenter had watched Cronin’s lecture about “Level Two Dating”::

    He said that it advocates being the “chaste boyfriend”, and that Dalrock had written a brutal rebuttal to that concept: “The folly of the celibate boyfriend.”
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-folly-of-the-celibate-boyfriend/

    Cronin is a fountain of bad advice for young men!

  187. Anonymous Reader says:

    Larry Kumar
    Cronin is Women are a fountain of bad advice for young men!

    Fixed it for you. No charge.

  188. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    Is there such a thing as an irrecoverable thread?

    Not in this case. Jason has an issue or two; stuck in the anger phase with flashes of despair for a start. This isn’t unique in the manosphere. Lots of options, depending on Jason’s mindset.

    Recoverable, as long as we don’t get any women involved…

  189. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Spike: This sentence reminds me of the modern wedding. …

    We all know that women love weddings. So much so that being a “wedding planner” is a dream job for many women. So much so that it’s also a great premise for a romcom:

    Wedding planners. One of the many useless “careers” that women “work” at. If all wedding planners died tomorrow, civilization would continue without a hitch.

  190. Oscar says:

    @ seventiesjason says:
    April 18, 2018 at 9:05 pm

    “I still don’t understand why now its slander because I won’t tell you.”

    I did not state that not telling me is slander. I explained that lies like “none of you will walk deeper with a man” when Dalrock offered to correspond with you privately to help you individually, is slander.

    “I still don’t understand telling all the men on this thread on why I did not accept his polite offer will somehow ‘help you all to help me’”

    It’ll help you because no one can help a person who asks for help, then rejects it. If you’re not honest about why you did that, then you’ll just keep doing it.

    “Dalrock admitted himself he didn’t really know of what he could offer me would even be of help.”

    And I already explained that’s why he offered to correspond with you privately, so he could help you individually. But you rejected his help after asking for help. Why would you reject the help you repeatedly asked for?

  191. thedeti says:

    “Jason loves attention.”

    No, Jason is hurting and in pain, and is lashing out. At this point I would advise him to read some of the advice he’s been given on this and other threads, some of it by me, step away from his laptop/phone, turn it off, and go do something else, and consider/pray about/ruminate on the advice he’s been given. And then after you’ve done that, please come back here and read the rest of this comment.
    ______________________________________________

    Jason

    This is now getting to the level of counterproductive for everyone involved, most of all you. I am less concerned about you following advice or convincing others of the rightness of your positions, and more concerned about what all this is doing to you, right now. I for one completely believe you. I believe everything you’re telling us. I believe most of it probably went down the way you’re telling us. What most people are trying to show you is that there are reasons for it, those reasons are most likely internal and structural and attitudinal with you and not with your physical appearance, and that you’d be best served by taking a look at those internal, structural and attitudinal reasons and not blaming it all on your looks.

    Yes, lots of women are bitches. Yes, lots of people are stupid. I can’t do anything about that, and neither can you. What you can do is consider what you are doing that is contributing to what happens.

    I can’t find it now, but I remember some of the advice I gave was something like this:

    From experience, when a man says he can’t make anything happen with women, just dead in the water, done before he’s even out of the gate, it’s usually one or more of the following:

    1) Looks/physical appearance. Something’s way off with his attire, hairstyle, body habitus, whatever. His teeth are jacked. Bad breath. Terrible hairstyle. Clothes that fit poorly, are out of style, in poor repair, poorly laundered, unflattering. He’s too skinny. He’s too fat. He’s misproportioned. Something’s weird about his voice (a la Jordan Peterson).

    2) Giving off “vibes” that don’t work. He can’t read social cues. He exudes discomfort around people. Something’s just “off” about him.

    3) He’s got a touch of Aspergers or has a Myers-Briggs INTJ personality (if you’re into that sort of thing).

    All these things can be overcome with advice, effort, therapy. Will that change who you are now? Maybe. If you want to make it easier to meet women, it’s easier to change yourself than it is to wait for the world to change to accommodate you.

    Another thing I can tell you, just from looking around, is that the women in your age group/dating pool in the US are, almost without exception, damaged goods and carrying some baggage. They’re almost all divorced. They almost all have children still living with them. The ones who are never married usually are single moms. The ones who are never married and have no kids are exceedingly bitter and resentful about it. They don’t have kids, they bitterly regret not having kids/their inability to have kids, and they have chips on their shoulders the size of Texas about it. And as to this last group, a woman who’s made it to 30 without kids or marriage is an enormous red flag. There’s usually a reason for it, and those reasons are why their relationships/sexual couplings always end and they can’t seem to make it work. It’s usually because they pick crappy men, they haven’t worked through their childhood/daddy issues, they have mental illnesses/personality disorders, they have low future time orientation, and/or they just won’t compromise and meet a man halfway. They have a lot of preconceived notions on what they expect from men, dating, sex, relationships, etc. So you’ll have to deal with that too. A lot of times, Jason, the problems in a fledgling relationship have nothing to do with you, and everything to do with her.

    I really do hope you can find some peace in this.

  192. thedeti says:

    Jason:

    As to the advice above

    I think from your photo, that your physical appearance isn’t the issue here. It’s most likely (2) (vibes) or (3) Asperger’s/personality type. I of course do not know if you have any of these conditions or are doing any of these things. I’d advise some therapy on this, mainly to work through the complex feelings you have on it and to help you see what you are doing and how you come across to others and how others perceive you. I can tell you that I have done this and it’s one of the best things I ever did. See only a male therapist, one whom you trust, and one who will be brutally honest with you about all of this.

    Please consider this.

  193. Heidi says:

    From a (female) writer on Slate: “The Work of Marital Maintenance Is a Privilege and Not Everyone Can Afford It”

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/04/the-work-of-marital-maintenance-is-a-privilege-not-everyone-can-afford.html

    tldr: The author and her husband had a kid, got married, and have never had enough time and money to take care of their marriage, so they’re going to divorce. Awesome.

  194. BillyS says:

    So people hang out in groups, a young man sees a girl her likes, talks to her without being alone with her, approaches her father/guardian, then begins courtship. They are not left unchaperoned until after the wedding. That’s an interesting idea, not sure if it work though.

    It wouldn’t work today, but what we have isn’t working either.

    As greenmantlehoyos pointed out, group only dating often doesn’t lead to the sort of pairing off that could result in marriage. Its interesting that the Mormon church, which takes chastity very seriously, encourages one-on-one dating for adults. Their experience too is that group dating often doesn’t result in marriage.

    That is probably a feature, not a bug. Women can mask themselves better in a one-on-one situation. Forming more marriages is not a proper goal if they are just going to blow up. Though one-on-one dating also leads to a bunch of other problems/sins that are not helpful, but you are not noting those.

    That’s how it works, or at least used to work, in parts of the Moslem world. You’re right I don’t think it ever worked like that in Europe though.

    That is not the only way to not have a dating culture, so it is not worth pushing the idea that a man or woman couldn’t see who they were marrying until the wedding day. Though I would wonder if it would be any worse than what we have today.

    Green,

    No one really goes off the market until the end game plays out, which can take forever, so no assortative mating takes place outside the very top.

    That is a problem with female expectations. Sure some men will get more female attention if women can’t be in a hot guys soft harem, but most of those guys get nothing in the dating world. You are missing that.

    There’s no other way to see if a girl might be open to you personally until you actually ask her and she goes for it or not.

    That is simply not true. Look at the ideas of game and IoIs (indications of interest). It is not perfect, but it doesn’t require asking someone out on a date so that is not a valid argument.

    By forcing a certain amount of pairing you avoid what is in practice a kind of chaste polygamy dynamic (multiple women oriented towards one dude).

    That is what we have now, though I doubt the chaste part. See replies above for things like women lining up outside a hot guy’s room. This behavior happens with or without dates.

    Squid,

    I don’t think all women are evil and I don’t think every church is corrupt and broken and not worth engaging in.

    All women aren’t evil, nor are all churches, but the rot is so entwined in the system that it is almost impossible to avoid even so. That is one thing that makes it so hard. My former church wasn’t completely wrong, just stupid, though the pastor refused to admit any failure and thus continues to be stupid in the area. Most are like that.

    I see even in my current church an idea of pushing women’s success in ministry over success as wives and mothers. I have talked with a few men that were chewed up by divorce, but I don’t think most in leadership really have a clue, mostly because they won the lottery in that area.

    Jason,

    It looks like you are still complaining about how unfair life is. I doubt you would really want most of those women you talk about anyway, so why focus on them?

    Also consider what you would offer a woman as well. A woman needs to consider what she offers a man, but the reverse is also true. Though maybe you just have to work through this phase. Yeah, it sucks, but society is how it is, especially in the area you live.

    I am about a decade ahead of you and it is even worse from my position. Finding an available virtuous woman is most unlikely for me, and I don’t have what appears to be your figure. I thought I had built a life with a tough, but faithful wife, only to find out she can justify almost any action in her Christianity. So I am alone, even more than you since I would never go out dancing (for example).

    Appreciate what you do have rather than wishing you had the greener grass someplace else. Most of it really isn’t there anyway.

    I can’t recall Dalrock telling anyone to move overseas, though perhaps I missed that. Others do push that as a proper goal (ignoring the problems). Moving out of northern CA would probably be a good idea because I doubt many appropriate women exist there now. It is like complaining that the fishing is bad in an area, but doing nothing to change the area or how you are fishing.

    And stop whining about your situation in longish posts if you don’t want people taking you to task here. No one would bring it up without the couple of complaining replies I just read.

    I am significantly overweight, though I carry it better due to my physical frame than many, but even I can talk with attractive women for short bits, even though few of them would go out with me. Your attitude here is likely oozing out in real life.

    Deti,

    I worked with Venturing for a while and the male-female sex aspect seemed to me to be too large to overcome. It will kill many troops in the future, pushing the same problems down. No leader can follow everyone around enough to prevent that.

    As to WalMart: I see many thin man – fat woman pairings there. I see very few of the reverse. Are women more overweight than men? I would guess so based on this, but perhaps I am just not noticing exactly how many thin women do shop there. (I have seen a few, but they tend to not be paired up, though a number have wedding rings.)

    RPL,

    I suppose that’s true for many men. But as a never married, I long for emotional intimacy more than for sex.

    That was severely missing for a lot of my marriage, but I still felt it somewhat. I would agree with you that while I do miss sex, not having that emotional connection is likely more of an concern for me. Though I need physical attraction and faithfulness on the other end, making that hard to expect.

    Deti,

    I can tell you that the completely lack of emotional intimacy is almost a larger problem for me than the sex. The lack of sex is a factor, but the lack of any emotional connection is probably worse. My N is 1, so I don’t get sex anyplace else. The pull is lighter now, but not gone, but God was correct when He stated that “it is not good for man to be alone” even if some ignore that.

    Perhaps it might be different if I had any close male friends, but that is not certain.

    This is your fault. Jason and the men you created have to fix it. But I’m under no illusions whatsoever as to what got us here, and who created these men.

    Good points, but I doubt the men who need to hear it read here, unfortunately.

    PokeSalad,

    Jason loves attention.

    That does seem to be the core issue. I am not going to trim out my already written comments here, but the behavior of whining and then complaining when people talk about it does raise questions.

    I leave those comments in here to possibly help others. Jason is clearly not listening. I guess I should treat him like GBFM and AT.

  195. Damn Crackers says:

    @Jason – Just a reminder that Dante had the depressed and the angry in the same circle of hell.

  196. feeriker says:

    Anonymous Reader says:
    April 18, 2018 at 11:25 pm

    You beat me to the punch!

  197. feeriker says:

    Jason:

    Deti has given some excellent advice upthread, not just to you, but to men in general. Trust me here when I say that he knows what he’s talking about. If you knew me, knew what I look like, and what my personality is like and could see me with my new bride, you would instantly realize that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE, FOR ANY MAN (of course God also helps those who help themselves; after swallowing the red pill, I followed much of the advice deti and others here have given about self-improvement. Even the minimal results made a universe of difference).

    So my simple message is, don’t despair. As deti also mentioned upthread, it’s counterproductive and only hurts you, not anyone/anything else that is the cause of your pain. To slightly paraphrase an old piece of Buddhist wisdom: wallowing in bitterness and despair is like swallowing constant doses of poison and expecting it to kill someone else.

  198. Paul says:

    @Jason: on a blog which mostly focusses on the difficulties in modern marriage, where many men share their pain for being frivorced, you consistently are struggling how to FIND a wife, and your frustrations show. Your frustrated attitude will not be attracting women in the first place. I can give you one piece of advice: LET IT GO! Make living for God your first priority, tell him your desires, and leave it to Him if He will give you a wife or not. Learn to be at peace in Him.

  199. Peter says:

    The below is a comment from Vox Populi. It sounds as though the feminism, et al that is going on in churches is an infusion of judaism.

    61. bob kek mando – ( your mom always did like me best ) April 19, 2018 1:50 AM

    57. CM April 19, 2018 12:50 AM
    Or is it just a new and modern instance of Jewish apostasy which seems to be their habit?

    a couple of threads back, i linked a youtube video of a Chasidim explanation of the Fall. you should watch that.

    the explanation of the rabbi was that Eve did not sin, she had a greater understanding of the Will of God than Adam did. Adam was weak, NOT because he allowed his wife to tempt him, but because he had failed to comprehend the hidden will of God as well as Eve had.

    yes, God had told them not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. but He had secretly ( ie – God lied to them ) wanted them to do so. because Eden was not the “lowest” form which needed to be redeemed, it was simply an intermediary area.

    the rabbi says that the Earth *already* existed before Adam and Eve came to Eden and was *already* corrupt. why, then, did God call it good in his eyes? no explanation.

    the rabbi says that Adam and Eve were not “cursed” on their expulsion from Eden, rather that God was simply describing the consequences of being cut off from the Tree of Life and Eden.

    the rabbi says that the Serpent did nothing wrong, that he had only “helped” Eve to understand the Will of God. the rabbi says that the Serpent was NOT cursed. rather, that what was laid on the Serpent was the natural consequence of not being within the Garden any longer.

    because it was God’s will that the “good” creation which He had just made needed to be redeemed to Him. because it was faulty and corrupt.

    basically, the rabbi took every single direct moral statement in the first three chapters of Genesis and inverts it’s meaning.

  200. Damn Crackers says:

    @Peter – Sounds like Gnostic/Kabbalistic interpretations of the Fall. The snake was the hero, not God.

    Read the blog put out by an Orthodox Jew by the name of The Rebbe. He shows how centuries ago this type of thinking influenced Jewish thought as much as it influenced Churchianity.

    https://therebbeblog.wordpress.com/

    BTW, I think he also posts and Vox’s site too.

  201. BillyS says:

    That Rabbi is an idiot since God judged Adam for listening to the voice of Eve. That means listening to her voice was wrong, duh!

  202. Paul says:

    Don’t forget the rabbis are the direct spiritual descendants of the leaders of Israel that succeeded in plotting to kill both Jesus and Stephanus. Read the NT and e.g. Justin Martyr ‘dialogue with Trypho’.

    2 Co 3:15 “Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.”

  203. ray says:

    Sharkly– I’m really disappointed that the “church” was AWOL the entire 16 years my struggling marriage was crying out for help, or worse yet, they were cheering on my wife’s spoiled childish rebellion, and dishonoring me in front of her. They’re mostly a pathetic bunch of Pussy worshipping losers, picking and choosing their own foolish doctrines from the world around them. Finding a good man is 1 in 1000. And I’m more likely to find a Unicorn than a courageous Godly steadfast woman born out of this degenerate generation. Come quickly Lord Jesus!”

    He is.

  204. @ deti

    1) Looks/physical appearance. Something’s way off with his attire, hairstyle, body habitus, whatever. His teeth are jacked. Bad breath. Terrible hairstyle. Clothes that fit poorly, are out of style, in poor repair, poorly laundered, unflattering. He’s too skinny. He’s too fat. He’s misproportioned. Something’s weird about his voice (a la Jordan Peterson).

    2) Giving off “vibes” that don’t work. He can’t read social cues. He exudes discomfort around people. Something’s just “off” about him.

    3) He’s got a touch of Aspergers or has a Myers-Briggs INTJ personality (if you’re into that sort of thing).

    Good list.

    I think from your photo, that your physical appearance isn’t the issue here. It’s most likely (2) (vibes) or (3) Asperger’s/personality type. I of course do not know if you have any of these conditions or are doing any of these things. I’d advise some therapy on this, mainly to work through the complex feelings you have on it and to help you see what you are doing and how you come across to others and how others perceive you. I can tell you that I have done this and it’s one of the best things I ever did. See only a male therapist, one whom you trust, and one who will be brutally honest with you about all of this.

    Could still be #1 things. Style is a pretty obvious one. Well fitting, flattering clothing is one thing that the vast majority of men don’t do well. Myself included. My wife tends to pick out much more form fitting clothing. More muscles won’t hurt as well. A good cologne. Smile. Hairstyle.

    Vibes is pretty nebulous. General things:

    1. Posture: no slouching, chest up, shoulders back, head up. Carrying yourself well.
    2. Body language — open vs closed (no crossed arms, arms across your body, etc.), no fidgeting, no jerky movements, learn to be purposeful and smooth with movements
    3. Good eye contact, no fast moving/fidgeting eyes, smile. Stone face is OK as well depending on situation.
    4. Relaxed, be comfortable, diaphragm breathing, survey everything
    5. Conversation… know how to switch from topic to topic, share stories about similar experiences, don’t be afraid to disagree or make playfully make fun of her, statements more than questions is very helpful, etc.

  205. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Paul: Jason … you consistently are struggling how to FIND a wife, and your frustrations show. Your frustrated attitude will not be attracting women in the first place.

    True. Women can sense desperation, frustration, resentment, anger, bitterness, neediness. Those are bad vibes. When such a man indicates interest in a woman, she regards him as creepy.

  206. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Peter :the rabbi took every single direct moral statement in the first three chapters of Genesis and inverts it’s meaning.

    Ever since they rejected Jesus, Judaism lost its way. It’s now far from any Truth and full of heresies. Paul warned against Judaizing Christian Truths, just as John warned against “those who say they are Jews and are not” but are a “synagogue of Satan.”

  207. ray says:

    Scott — ‘The other day I was playing marbles on the floor with my daughter and I shit you not, one of the marbles bounced just perfectly into the cats mouth and we had to do the Heimlich maneuver to get it out. It was friggin crazy.’

    LOL and they say there’s no Dog. . .

  208. PokeSalad says:

    The other day I was playing marbles on the floor with my daughter and I shit you not, one of the marbles bounced just perfectly into the cats mouth and we had to do the Heimlich maneuver to get it out. It was friggin crazy.

    No wai!

    About 3 weeks ago I was spraying weeds with glyphosate, and the wand hit the bed of my pickup truck and squirted me right in the eye. Hurt like a mother until I irrigated my eye.

    Another lesson in the importance of PPE/eyepro.

  209. Gunner Q says:

    Peter @ 10:59 am:
    “The below is a comment from Vox Populi. It sounds as though the feminism, et al that is going on in churches is an infusion of judaism.”

    Nah, it’s just utopianism. Everybody who believes there’s nothing fatally wrong with human nature ends up there.

  210. Joe says:

    “Answer my questions. What, exactly, do you think is holding you back? You are above average on a number of key metrics, and not below average on any as per what you have disclosed. But to still not have even kissed a girl (a much lower bar than sex)?”

    What I think holding Jason back is he has some mental or psychological inhibitions and fear of women. He talks a good talk, but deep down I doubt if he ever wanted to get married or even have any type of normal relationship with a woman.

  211. pb says:

    Cronin and her extra credit assignment/project are featured in the new “documentary” The Dating Project, which of course is being praised by some Catholic outlets.

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