Winning her over without a word.

3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

— 1 Peter 3:1-6, ESV

On the surface it would seem that modern conservative Christians (eg complementarians) are on the same page as feminists/egalitarians on the issue of headship and submission in marriage.  Both are deeply troubled by headship and submission as they are defined in the Bible.  However, there is an important distinction.  Feminists/egalitarians want to abolish biblical headship and submission and replace it with a gender neutral model where husbands and wives have the same roles.   Conservative Christians on the other hand want to abolish biblical headship and submission while keeping distinct sex based roles in marriage.  Conservative Christians manage this contradiction by substituting cartoonish chivalry in place of biblical teaching, and by reversing the roles of husband and wife.

Thus, the difference between conservative Christians and egalitarians is very much like the difference between traditional feminists and Caitlyn Jenner.  Traditional feminists want to minimize if not abolish the distinction between the sexes, whereas Caitlyn is obsessed with the differences between the sexes;  (s)he merely wants to switch places.

What is fascinating is this new crossdressing version of Christianity is so common, no one even notices it!  Imagine a world where no one even understood that Caitlyn was doing something unusual, and you will understand the complete transformation that has occurred within conservative Christianity.   The Bible tells us that husbands are to actively lead their wives, washing them with the water of the word (Eph 5:22-27).  Wives on the other hand are to submit to their husband, and win their husband over without a word (1 Pet 3:1-6).  In the new crossdressing version of Christian marriage, wives are to lead their husbands, and husbands are to win their wives over without a word.

The most popular example of the new crossdressing view of Christian marriage is the movie Fireproof from 2008. In Fireproof, the wife files for divorce and starts an affair with a colleague at work.   The husband learns that his response as a Christian husband is to remain silent and try to win his wife over through his submission.   This leads to a triumphant scene where the husband confronts the man his wife is having an affair with and announces that he is going to fight for his wife’s heart:

Caleb Holt: I know what you’re doing. And I have no intention of stepping aside as you try to steal my wife’s heart. I’ve made some mistakes, but I still love her. So just know that I am going after her too. And since I’m married to her, I’d say I’ve got a head start. By the way,

[closes his hand to form a fist]

Again, Fireproof* shows the husband living out the biblical role of the wife, and presents it as the Christian model for marriage.  To the film’s credit, in a surprise plot twist at the end we learn that originally it was a wife that had to win her husband over without a word (imagine that!).  However, this is mentioned as a reference to one specific woman, not to the fact that the movie has reversed scriptural teaching.

But Fireproof is just the most widely praised example of this ubiquitous modern Christian teaching.  Last month I wrote about a post by pastor and Christian life coach Dr. Raymond Force, titled Where Men Blow It.  In my previous post I covered Force’s absurd claim that Scripture teaches us that God doesn’t mind it when we complain, and therefore Christian husbands must encourage their wives to complain as much as they like.  As I showed in my previous post, the very Scripture Force quotes to back his claim that God doesn’t mind when we grumble is actually all about God’s wrath when the Israelites were grumbling!  Force took a chapter of Numbers that featured God consuming the Israelites with fire and putting a plague on them for complaining, and claimed this showed that God wants us to feel free to complain.

This is pure nonsense, but his message is what modern Christians love so Force can write these things without fear of being challenged.  But this was only the first part of Force’s twisted teaching.  In the rest of the post Force goes on to teach that husbands need to win their wives over without a word.  Force does this in two parts.  The first message is that husbands need to give their wives the “Freedom to Learn Gracefully”:

Christ supplies an environment that allows men to learn gracefully. In other words, He allows us to trip up over ourselves, rethink our approach to life, and even blow it at times yet all in an atmosphere of grace. (I John 1:9, Romans 5:20, Matthew 11:28-29, I Peter 5:7, and Matthew 12:20) If a man is going to love his wife as Christ loved the church, then I believe he should provide the same atmosphere for his wife.

On many occasions, however, a man will see the shortcomings of his wife, her emotional vulnerabilities, or mood swings and offer criticism rather than grace. If this occurs, then it must be understood that he is failing to love his wife as Christ loved the church in that he is allowing the atmosphere in his marriage to be that of criticism rather than grace and understanding.

So while the job of a wife is to constantly complain, the job of a husband is to win her over without a word.  Force reinforces this in the next section titled “Freedom to Respond on Her Own Volition”, explaining that a husband’s job is to (just like Fireproof) win his wife’s heart (emphasis mine):

Men that are trying to win back the heart of their wife can come across as controlling, even while using good Biblical behavior. Whereas they formerly used anger and selfish behavior to secure their selfish desires, even their good behavior can have a string of expectation attached.

A man in this situation will do well to do what we teach in chapter 6 of our marriage book and love his wife because it is right not because it may secure a desired result.

It must be noted that just as Christ loves and then allows us to respond, a man must enter that vacuum of sorts where he does not know how his wife is going to respond. He may be waiting a while, but if I remember, Christ patiently waited for us.

*And the accompanying book The Love Dare.

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This entry was posted in Attacking headship, Complementarian, Crossdressing Theology, Dr. Raymond Force, Fireproof, Traditional Conservatives, Turning a blind eye. Bookmark the permalink.

70 Responses to Winning her over without a word.

  1. This is great commentary. For those of us unfamiliar with these discussions among modern conservative Christians, have you written about how these men should act in marriage — realistically, given today’s circumstances? That is, when married to a modern American women.

    Side note: out here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we have many students from other lands. I frequently hear their reactions after meeting our young women. It is similar to that of the Enterprise’s officers when visiting some of the stranger new worlds.

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  3. Scott says:

    Larry—

    Eventually all of these churches and parachurch organizations will implode from the weight of it. Christian men cannot carry the weight of this on their shoulders indefinitely.

    The thirst for a godly leader who holds everyone in the pews accountable to the consistent and perfect standard of God is profound.

    The only thing a man who awakened to this can do is full bore unapologetic masculinity in his home throwing all risk to the wind.

  4. Quizzer says:

    Jesus was extremely patient and totally silent when winning over Pharisees and money changers.

  5. Anonymous Reader says:

    Scott
    The only thing a man who awakened to this can do is full bore unapologetic masculinity in his home throwing all risk to the wind.

    Vetting women matters. Vetting them in multiple ways a lot. That is another thing church leaders, especially the tradcons, simply do not understand.

  6. Swanny River says:

    I don’t think most pastor’s actually care too deeply to maintain different sex-based roles. I say this based on my experience of hearing the Christian advice upon learning my wife has a PhD and wants a full-time plus career. To a person, leadership was all too willing to give advice of how to make that work. Their willingness to embrace role cross-dressing tells me they really only care about maintaining the respect and power they have through the FI status quo. They incidentally conserve second-wave feminism but their main goal is conserving their position of authority.

  7. Swanny River says:

    Anonymous Reader,
    I’ve never heard a pastor apply the proverb about sand being heavy, stones weighty, and provocation from a fool heavier than both being applied to a woman. That being so, how can any meaningful vetting take place? People of the word find truth distasteful, which is a serious problem. This original post is pointing a severe spiritual immaturity and twisting of scripture, such a people aren’t in position to give wise advice about vetting.

  8. Jason says:

    and then……every few months……..a pastor filled with “righteous anger” will give a sermon in thunderous tones telling single men “you need to man-up / ask women out / they don’t bite / you all are not bold enough to talk with a mighty woman of God / you men need to grow some / you are supposed to ask her out, expect her to be late and treat her like a daughter of royalty when you do go out / what a church full of wussed-out men! (that last comment will get cheers and applause from ALL the women in the pews that Sunday)

    The insults go on….

    but just last week we were told to “win her without saying a word”

    The future of evangelical American protestantism isn’t looking good. Men are going to continue to leave. The ones who stay will just stay silent, and assumed by the “bold n biblical” leadership that they are just stupid and slow and a few extra bucks in the tithe is better than none at. The older prunes are just going to die off all and the VAST swath of men in this country who need to be convinced of a Savior will still be in the dark…..the church WILL be held accountable HARDCORE when He return.

  9. Swanny River says:

    Dalrock,
    Do you get discouraged? Maybe that is a good way to pray for you, that you continue to have fighting energy and spirit? I ask that because this post is spot-on, but describes almost every protestant’s belief, and the willing stubbornness to God’s plain Word just overwhelms me at times, to the point where I turtle around believers.

  10. American says:

    Imo, the husband in Fireproof is a fool for ever ceding away his liberty voluntarily to come under a body of law that results in him becoming an annuity for an adulteress who’s off having sex with other people (while stopping by the bank to cash the checks he’s forced to send to her in order to stay out of jail and issued a criminal record). It’s not worth it. Don’t do it. Live your own life. You don’t need those kinds of problems. It’s OK to be single. It’s OK to be happy.

  11. Anonymous Reader says:

    Swanny River
    I’ve never heard a pastor apply the proverb about sand being heavy, stones weighty, and provocation from a fool heavier than both being applied to a woman.

    Ok. I have zero problem believing that. In fact, I doubt very much that most preachers spend any time in Proverbs at all. But that’s a different rabbit trail.

    That being so, how can any meaningful vetting take place?

    Obviously meaningful vetting can (and will) take place without the help, or especially the “help”, of a pastor. Vetting a woman is too important for a man to let someone else do it for him. He can ask other people’s opinion, and better still drill down a bit for facts, but since he’s the one at risk, if he wants the job done right…he better do it himself.

    If only someone had written an essay or two on vetting or interviewing a prospective wife… oh, wait!

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/interviewing-a-perspective-wife-part-i-should-you-open-a-position/
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/interviewing-a-prospective-wife-part-ii/

  12. Boxer says:

    Dear Swanny:

    Do you get discouraged? Maybe that is a good way to pray for you, that you continue to have fighting energy and spirit? I ask that because this post is spot-on, but describes almost every protestant’s belief, and the willing stubbornness to God’s plain Word just overwhelms me at times, to the point where I turtle around believers.

    You guys need to read two bodies of literature. The first is the stories of the early church martyrs. The martyrs of Sebaste, for example, were all loyal Roman soldiers who were condemned (after honorable service) to die a slow death by freezing, by some prefect or other, simply because they wouldn’t renounce Jesus. That’s a good place to start.

    The second is Che Guevara’s Guerrilla Warfare followed by Sun Tzu’s Art of War and Baltazar Grácian’s Art of Worldly Wisdom.

    Taken together, these two bits of history will give you a lot of perspective. The first corpus will tell you the stories of the guys who were willing to die rather than betray their principles, whereas modern men get weak in the knees and recant their faith for fear of being called a “sexist” by some fat bluehair.

    The second corpus will tell you how to keep yourselves sane. The best people on Dalrock are not conservatives. None of us are Americans any more. The revolutionary spirit upon which this society was founded is now gone, toast, and will never reappear (any more than the Mongol Empire under Ghengis Khan will.)

    America is dead as dirt. American conservatives are faggots and feminists. We are revolutionaries like Washington, Lenin and Thomas Paine. If you get that through your heads, your situation will become much clearer, and you’ll see things as they really are.

    Once that two-by-four to the head has worked its magic, you’ll recognize the truth. These scum are panicking. They fear us. Don’t get discouraged, and don’t do anything stupid that will get you arrested, either. They are on their way out, simply due to the internal contradictions in their ideology.

    Best,

    Boxer

  13. Frank K says:

    Eventually all of these churches and parachurch organizations will implode from the weight of it.

    They will eventually go the way of their mainline protestant predecessors and become relics, empty shells that are irrelevant.

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  15. bdash 77 says:

    absolutely brilliant
    very eye opening!
    Always love it when you nail the ” conservative evangelical Christians”

  16. scientivore says:

    Totally OT, Vox Day has a speculative book project that I think many here would find interesting. If you could just ask Jesus Christ one question, what would it be? You can send yours in, particulars at the link.

  17. scientivore says:

    (The 500-word limit is rather generous, so I padded mine out with relevant Bible quotes for context, but that is just an upper bound and not a goal you need to reach.)

  18. Peasant says:

    > On many occasions, however, a man will see the shortcomings of his wife, her emotional vulnerabilities, or mood swings and offer criticism rather than grace.

    Wow, I thought y’all Protestants had a huge dustup a while back about the idea of grace being anything other than an unmerited gift from God. Who knew a husband could just give it to his wife – what a Theological Insight from Dr. Force! I wonder if he’s friends with Pope Francis…

  19. Swanny River says:

    Let’s stop this distractive offer to refight the reformation. Peasant, do you have anything to add about the actual post? Billy S and Earl have done well for awhile now, not doing the jackass reformation battle, so don’t expect your efforts to derail to work.

  20. Joe says:

    I would like to see a post about “living with (women) in an understanding way”.

    1 Peter 3:5-11 King James Version (KJV)
    5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

    6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

    What does it mean to give them “honor”?

  21. BillyS says:

    Swanny River,

    We get the “the Mother Church is perfect, how could you be a stupid Protestant” posts on a regular basis. I respond to some and ignore many other digs.

    Anyone who can’t see that these problems are core to humans, not a specific subset, is not really thinking very far.

  22. BillyS says:

    Note how so many first use Eph 5:22 to undermine the command to women in Eph 5:23. Then they never mention the need for a woman to submit ever again. It is mutual submission in their statement, yet they only discuss how men must submit.

    They have truly transposed the point, as Dalrock correctly notes.

  23. Trust says:

    One frustrating thing is how much modern Christian women change the minute they become modern Christian wives. I underestimated how much this was true, normally thinking men who warned me didn’t vet well. We’ll I vetted very well, and so did my parents and friends and family. They thought I hit the jackpot before, yet don’t recognize her now.

    Really hard to vet effectively pre-marriage because it is impossible to witness her with post marriage power.

    And a note to the posers who like to say “be more alpha”:. That’s easier said than done since the entire reason women marry most men is their beta provider capacity. Which is good for society when society doesn’t turn it inside down.

  24. Peasant says:

    Swanny,

    You mistake my meaning. I am heckling Force’s apparent abandonment of what ought to be a bedrock principle for him and (comically, I thought) comparing it to the similar contemporary attempts by Francis, Kasper, Shoenborn, Cupich et al. to sabotage bedrock principles within Catholicism, rather than trying to stir the pot wrt. the nature of grace and so on.

  25. Jason says:

    right right………the Reformation happened not because a few angry / jealous people north of Rome wanted power……….it happened because of blatant corruption and people were sick of it, felt they were powerless to do anything about it…but one man said the right thing at the right time and asked the right questions.

    The Word gives plenty of examples in KIngs / Chronicles of kings and people doing “wicked things before the Lord” and even mentions corrutption in the Levi tribe who conducted the Temple.

    We Christians think today (well, not on this blog anyway) that somehow the Word only applies to that situation in thise times. It’s for all time. I’m tired of church after church claiming “they are ready” for Christ’s return yet few men, rebellious women, pews filled with single moms (everyone of them of course was involved with a wicked abusive man……but her own discernment didn’t see this before she got horizontal with him). Actually re-writting the Bible (only a few gazillion translations now for every situation), so concerned about abortion (not that they should not be) but letting all the young boys of their flock be misdiagnosed with ADD / ADHD and medded up.

    Say anything????????

    You’re judmental. You cannot criticize God’s anointed. You think you are better than the rest of us? Who do you think you are? They Bible says we are to obey our leaders. You are a legalist (used as a smear). You are a Pharaisee. Jesus said we cannot judge anyone.

    Yet….they pews are gray, the congrgation shrinking. Anything and everything is done to attract the youth, and looks so copycat of the world…..slap “jesus” on it…and now we’re “cool”

    It’s such a mess. The church (protestant) is such a social club now. Very little repentance, only verses “Jesus loves you” and any other resources catered to “the women” (who have it so terrible evidently)

    I am sure I am being “hateful” and “judmental” here but we also have a TON of obesity in the church.

    Say anything? You are smeared, put down, talked down to, lectured…..its no wonder I found more solace, confrontation of my own personal sin, and repentance out on my 133 mile hike this past June than I have found of late inside my Corps

  26. Gunner Q says:

    The feminists also push for inverted sex roles. I know some “househusbands” in California and they aren’t Churchian. Feminists are simply more brutal about it, not having to wear a skin suit of Biblical teachings.

    Both want male submission to female rebellion. The pattern of Original Sin.

  27. Damn Crackers says:

    I may not be the best Christian here, but didn’t Jesus even reproach his own disciples for “not getting it?”

    I swear, these guys won’t be happy until the entire laity is sucking tranny dick for Christ.

  28. Swanny River says:

    Peasant, I thought I may have misunderstood your post. Thanks.
    Gunner Q and Dalrock,
    Take it from a submitted husband, the church has no limits and continue burdening husbands, even once they go to bed exhausted from servant-leadership.
    So even if a man succeeds at doing wordless actions to win his wife, the church will not say, “atta boy.” That tells me their real motivations are probably different than they say. In other words, Force and Kendricks are crying crocodile tears for the state of believing households. The leaders are best at Status Quo, and they work to maintain their position, using whatever topic at hand. I made the mistake of thinking they think before talking or writing.
    Heidi, good link.

  29. OKRickety says:

    BillyS said: “Note how so many first use Eph 5:22 to undermine the command to women in Eph 5:23. Then they never mention the need for a woman to submit ever again. It is mutual submission in their statement, yet they only discuss how men must submit.”

    Well put, BillyS. Although I knew it existed, I hadn’t consciously noted the logical fallacy in their argument, where they argue against wives submitting to their husbands using Eph. 5:22 as support.

  30. BillyS says:

    DC,

    Jesus chastised His disciples on many cases.

    Look at the letters to the Churches in Revelation as well it you want Him saying some hard things to those He led. He was not this weak and mild wimp many think.

  31. Anonymous Reader says:

    Heidi
    Decentish article by Matt Walsh:

    Something about a stopped clock and the correct time, or a blind pig and acorns comes to mind. Walsh could actually be learning, or he could have just stumbled over a fact. Given the huge arrogance he showed just a couple of years back, I’m of the “wait and see” opinion on little Matty.

    Trust
    One frustrating thing is how much modern Christian women change the minute they become modern Christian wives.

    AWALT.
    “A man marries a woman expecting her not to change, but she does; a woman marries a man expecting him to change, but he does not” is an old saying for a reason.

    I underestimated how much this was true, normally thinking men who warned me didn’t vet well. We’ll I vetted very well, and so did my parents and friends and family. They thought I hit the jackpot before, yet don’t recognize her now.

    Any reply will be hazy because of thin data, but…whatever you are seeing now was there before, it just wasn’t visible for whatever reason. The flip side: whatever was there before is still there and can be brought back to the foreground.

    Really hard to vet effectively pre-marriage because it is impossible to witness her with post marriage power.

    Ah, yes and no. Part of vetting: how does a woman relate to her father ? To any brothers?

    And a note to the posers who like to say “be more alpha”:.

    Some who say that are just posing or even AMOGing, but it’s still true. You cannot change her behavior directly, but you can change your own behavior especially how you react to her words and actions. That’s a key fact anywhere in the androsphere. It’s ancient, the Stoics knew that. It’s the foundation of the late psychologist Viktor Frankl’s approach known as “logotherapy”; he survived a Nazi concentration camp in part because he applied his own rules to himself. It’s part of the force continuum approach to resolving conflict in the street.

    You can’t control her directly, but you can control yourself. Once you have yoursel under control, especially in your reactions to her, then you can proceed with basic leadership / basic headship / basic Game in such a way as to elicit the desired reactions from her. In other words, once you have your head straight, you can start batting her fitness tests away and this will calm down her hypergamous anxiety.

    That’s easier said than done since the entire reason women marry most men is their beta provider capacity.

    Even a 30+ year old former carousel rider marries a man because at some level her hypergamy is affected. Marriage betaizes a man, unless he realizes what is happening and pushes back against it in multiple ways, starting inside his own mind.

    Someone needs to take Athol Kay’s original Male Action Plan and modify it a bit to fit Christian ethics. Because the churches won’t help men even a smidge – men like Hmm are very much the exception to this rule. The androsphere is the only place with real, tested, methods to deal with a contentious or rebellious wife.

  32. They Call Me Tom says:

    Shouldn’t conservative and orthodox be interchangeable adjectives? And yet somehow the political definition is fair enough in this case. They are social christians not orthodox ones.

  33. Cane Caldo says:

    What’s the over-under that Dr. Raymond Force also advises men to talk more–share feelings and whatnot–with their wives? If he does, then it would be par for the Christian course. To them, husbands are to be like servants, sons, friends, helpers, brothers, even sisters and mothers…anything except a husband. That is to say: A husband is never to attempt, expect, or desire obedience; the peculiar aspect of husbandry that differentiates it from other vocations.

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  35. Dan Horton says:

    Using his new metric of skin in the game, Taleb recently said that most americans are athiests, even those who say they are Christians. He said he only recognizes a person as religious if they are negatively affected by being that religion. Talk is meaningless (read:James).

    The thing I learned this month, is how much people connect virtue with beliefs instead of action. Being on the right side of an issue is a huge thing for liberals and christians– it’s not about truth, though, it’s about morality: being on the right side of an issue means being a good person (even with no actual action taking place).

    It was hard for me to understand this because virtue is so far from belief. I might believe someone to be very wrong on an issue, but that isn’t at all connected to me with how good they are as a person. But I guess it’s just an easier way to be a virtuos person. Just redefine it to mean ‘believes the approved things’ instead of actually takes corageous and risky action.

    Anwyays, in a roundabout way I’m telling you now to be disheartened by these supposed christian leaders who mold christianity to fit modern values, removing all the every sharp edges (and the core itself) so that instead of taking risk in their beliefs, they isntead profit by the the world.

    Do not be disheartened because this is how it’s always been. There has always been but a remnant who remain faithful. and they have always suffered for it. So count yourselves fortunate. And take up your swords.

    FYI Aaron Renn has a newsletter about the intersection fo masculinity and christianity which I highly recommend and haven’t seen discussed here. His last issue was about attractiveness in women and the horrible message woman receive from the church. You guys’ll love it. Sign up here: http://www.urbanophile.com/masculinist/ And he also talked about Jordan Peterson getting “200,000 views on a two and a half hour lecture about Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac,” and yet how many Christian leaders blaming the lack of men in their congregations on the men themselves instead of looking in a mirror.

    Lastly, since I only post here once a quarter or so, I am happy to annoucnce I’ll be having my first child, a baby girl in July. So my skin in the game just increased tenfold. I attribute the manosphere in general, but this blog in particular as the primary tool in bringing me back to scripture, back to the truth, no matter how risky that will be today.

  36. bdash 77 says:

    @GunnerQ

    Plenty of Christian house husbands where I come from
    the churchians teach young men that this is their Godly role
    Pastors yell at men for thinking their wife should cook or vacuum

  37. Gunner Q says:

    “Plenty of Christian house husbands where I come from”

    Right, and atheist ones too. That was my point, both feminists and complementarians seek the same end. The latter just feel the need to play dress-up in order to sell the lie.

  38. Boxer says:

    Dear Fellas:

    “Plenty of Christian house husbands where I come from”

    Are these actually male homemakers, or are they slackers, who have quit their jobs in order to drink, work on old cars, and goof off all day with their layabout friends? Be honest.

    There’s another subset: husbands who are evading legal process for misdemeanors or child support or some such, hiding out in plain sight, and usually working in the grey market, without you knowing it.

    Right, and atheist ones too. That was my point, both feminists and complementarians seek the same end. The latter just feel the need to play dress-up in order to sell the lie.

    I have actually known very few such couples, of any religion, who were healthy and well-adjusted. Those few I do remember were extreme outliers. It is generally a male trait to want to go out and excel in the real world.

    While I respect every married couple’s choice to self-organize, I always suspect some serious dysfunction under the surface of the relationship, whenever I hear such stories. I’m rarely disappointed by a little digging.

    Best,

    Boxer

  39. Oane says:

    So true, i did the same, quetly trying to win her heart. It didnt work

  40. bdash 77 says:

    they are male homemakers
    God called Adam to work and subdue the earth- before Eve came along, Eve was bought to help him
    The homemaker has always been the helping role across all societies through all generations
    albeit there were slightly different caveats…

    most of them boast about how they need to love their wives more and be better homemakers
    one of them keeps talking about this on facebook

    Sarah Sanders- Mike Huckabee’s ( southern baptist) daughter…
    her father made sure she married house husband material so she could work in his campaign and now of course Trump…
    they call themselves believers….

    yet a man who expects his wife to be focused on the home- is called an unbeliever- at our churches at least.

    This makes sense though
    with the recent Churchian conferences “IF Gathering” WHERE they command husband to “Unleash” their wives and support their careers…

    I know many Godly women from Asia ( Dr’s engineers etc) who all think Western women are crazy… they all believe regardless of their career or income their calling is to support their husband and care for his home ( even those that work…)

    What is more scary is the youth pastors and young adult groups training men to be house husbands….

  41. Robert What? says:

    I think men need to start taking long hot showers after getting back from a mainstream church just to wash off all the crap.

  42. Bee says:

    Anonymous Reader, Trust

    “You can’t control her directly, but you can control yourself. Once you have yourself under control, especially in your reactions to her, then you can proceed with basic leadership / basic headship / basic Game in such a way as to elicit the desired reactions from her. In other words, once you have your head straight, you can start batting her fitness tests away and this will calm down her hypergamous anxiety.”

    Excellent comment.

    Doing this helped my marriage a lot. When your wife has an emotional storm, don’t fight fire with fire. When you can keep calm and firm you will be able to lead well. Sometimes that means going to a different room in the house and ignoring her until the storm blows over.

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    Women are out earning men in any number of areas. We can whine about female preferences (in K – 12, in college admissions / scholarships / funding, in hiring and promotion preferences) all we want it won’t change anything. The fact is, for a whole lot of reasons, men in their 20’s are likely to earn less money than their female counterparts. Hypergamy is what it is, though.

    Some years back one writer put it thus: “I’m captain of the boat even if she’s catching more of the fish”. No idea how that worked out for him in the longer run, but IMO he had the right idea. Putting it into action wasn’t so simple, I am sure.

    There are maps for dual-income-no-kids, there are maps for dual-income-with-kids, but there’s really no map for dual-income-she-earns-more (or most). I know couples where she nets much more income, but there’s no children so the situation is fairly simple.

    I repeat: there’s no map for a married couple with children where the woman earns more money. But given the trends already in place, it is seriously needed.

  44. bdash 77 says:

    @ women are only out earning men because they want to and that is what their feminist daddies have trained them to do…
    and men do not see marriage as attractive so our massively dropping out of the labour force ( was 95% participation in the 50’s, now it is only 63%) ( as a society this is dangerous- can’t complain about China etc taking over when your own male population does not work/produce economically)
    and frankly why should men care? older men have raised their daughters to be men in skirts

    we need a map?
    we have one-
    gay marriage
    if male and female are interchangeable you cannot rationally oppose gay marriage, as the concept of gay marriage relies on the understanding that male and female is not necessary for a family unit and a male can replace the female ( gay) and female the male ( lesbian)

    the one that HAS the ability to catch more of the fish will ultimately always be the captain
    if the family needs to move because the wife’s job has to move- the husbands mission or leadership won’t matter
    feeding your oneself and family comes first- always has, throughout history
    the female is the defacto head, regardless of the denial.

    Also- how is a man Alpha if he cannot sustain himself?!!!
    being a dependent is surely a beta trait…

    Eve was created for Adam not the other way around

  45. Gunner Q says:

    Boxer @ 3:51 pm:
    “Are these actually male homemakers, or are they slackers, who have quit their jobs in order to drink, work on old cars, and goof off all day with their layabout friends?”

    Actual “stay at home with the kids while Mommy is at work” homemakers. While they do find time in the day to goof off with friends just like housewives, they take their kids’ welfare seriously. The roads they took to that destination are variations of “I can’t find work, she’s making $$$, we need to stay together for the children, this makes economic sense, I can make it work well enough.”

    I suppose their alternative was sexless minimalism, when men are increasingly banned from the workplace.

  46. bdash 77 says:

    I wonder why Churchians try and dress it up
    flip everything
    why not just have it easier and agree with the feminists

  47. ACThinker says:

    Larry’s question posted first and repeated here seems to me to be the Most important question modern christians should be asking themselves about marriage

    “This is great commentary. For those of us unfamiliar with these discussions among modern conservative Christians, have you written about how these men should act in marriage — realistically, given today’s circumstances? That is, when married to a modern American women.”

    We can say all we want “this is how it should be”. But out here in the middle of the ocean on a row boat, it doesn’t matter that we should be on a nice big ship. That sank long ago. What is it we are to do now?

    We can say “American men are foolish to marry so don’t”. Um that has many problems for the Christian male in America, so it isn’t really a solution. Nor is the “Traditional Christian marriages should be this way”. If she isn’t on board with the that, and probably won’t stay there, so that isnt a go either. I’d love to see one, or even many parts that could be made into one.

    Larry over at FM or Dalrock, care to give it some go?

  48. DrTorch says:

    I hate coming in late, so many good comments.

    Trust wrote One frustrating thing is how much modern Christian women change the minute they become modern Christian wives

    Yes, I see that too. Largely b/c there are no older women mentoring younger women, the church leaders don’t preach against such rebellion, in fact they enable it by pacifying rebellious wives and bashing husbands. That’s why I think Dalrock’s work on this blog is so important, and why I’ll never listen to a church leader on this subject if they haven’t spent at least a year reading all of this site.
    The rest of your post was good too.

    Jason wrote The future of evangelical American protestantism isn’t looking good. Men are going to continue to leave.

    Evangelicalism is idolatry. I saw the same thing taking hold in a Orthodox Pres church I attended for several months. Although they might claim to be evangelical. But it was amusing and insulting to listen to them disparage other denominations while believing that couldn’t happen to them because “We’re reformed.” Apparently that’s an incantation to ward off secularism.

    Doesn’t work BTW. They were doing the same things I saw in the Armenian low church I attended 30 years prior. And they were catching up fast. That included allowing women (including ultra short-haired dyke wannabes) to speak out loudly in church services.

    Modern seminaries are totally corrupt, it’s no wonder that their products are as well. It is so assumed that the teaching on roles of the sexes is cultural and needs to be modified for our modern era, that no one even thinks to challenge it. Long ago when I was young and in Christian college, some would bring up the question, and the profs were quick smooth over these verses w/ a modern interpretation so as not to offend the girls in the class by telling them that God may have meant what He wrote. Remember, Daddy writes big checks, and he might stop if Princess is angry.

  49. DrTorch says:

    I will also add that when I was having marital problems and some church lay-counselors volunteered to help, they sounded a lot like Dr. Force, and this was over 10 years ago. This nonsense has etched away faithful men from the church.

  50. sipcode says:

    Nailed it Dalrock:

    “The Bible tells us that husbands are to actively lead their wives, washing them with the water of the word (Eph 5:22-27). Wives on the other hand are to submit to their husband, and win their husband over without a word (1 Pet 3:1-6). In the new crossdressing version of Christian marriage, wives are to lead their husbands, and husbands are to win their wives over without a word.”

    The woman is then the head of marriage. The man respects her and not vice versa. You worship who you respect.

    On a related note:

    Jordan Peterson touches on this [2:45 min video below] and plays into my longstanding contention that the healing of the Church STARTS with women obeying her marriage commandments.

  51. sipcode says:

    P.S. I’m a man in my 7th decade and all will tell you that I was never one to cuss, but the last five years the phrase keeps running through my head about the biblical steps for a woman: “The first thing women need to do is shut the fuck up.” I can’t count as high as the times that has rang in my head. It is 1 Peter 3:1.

    And no, that was not profanity: profanity is ONLY profaning the Word of God; that is what shepherds of the church do on this subject. I’m just using colorful wording.

  52. UK Fred says:

    Why do so many Bible colleges and ordination training establishments insist on staffing their schools with people who will tell you that, if the words of Scripture say “Black” what it really means is “White” and vice versa? In the UK I can think of one Baptist minister who broke up a church by teaching that homosexual activity could be perfectly aligned with Scripture and who, when the church was reduced to a small number from the 300 or so who regularly attended when he took over as senior minister is now a lecturer in a Bible college. Then there was the wife of a Methodist minister who proclaimed that she did not submit to her husband, in his hearing, who seemed shjocked that I told her she should not be preaching if she was not going to live according to the demands of Scripture while her husband just laughed. Do the leaders of our denominations really want to bring about the destruction of their churches in this generation?

  53. Trust says:

    @Anon Reader: “The flip side: whatever was there before is still there and can be brought back to the foreground.”
    ____________

    Not necessarily. It may have been a dog and pony show. A woman can show attraction and respect to snag the guy with money, doesn’t mean the attraction and respect were truly there.

  54. BillyS says:

    sipcode,

    the healing of the Church STARTS with women obeying her marriage commandments

    That is necessary not because it will cause healing, but because it will return to the position of ceasing to cause the (intentional) pain. Christian leaders must stop undermining marriage or the entire basis God created – the family – will not be present to form the basis for the Church and society.

  55. As a husband whose attempts at Christian leadership sometimes trip over a fiery temper, there’ve been times I’ve flung the I Peter verse during fights to say “Even if I really AM as wrong as that, you need to just SHUT UP already, Dear!”
    It worked about as well as one might imagine.

  56. Swanny River says:

    JJ, do you think it went badly because it was biblically wrong to say, because you weren’t saying it for her best, or because the threatpoint and the church gives her strength to rebel? Honest question, though my instincts lead me to believe #3 is the biggest factor.

  57. feeriker says:

    the threatpoint and the church

    Isn’t the latter here part of the former?

  58. Bee says:

    I can remember 3 occasions where a decision affecting our family needed to be made and my wife was strongly advocating something that I did not think was the best approach. I said, “God made me the husband, the leader and you need to submit. We are going to do what I have been advocating” I did not yell, but I said it firmly, forcefully.

    My wife was upset for several hours but I went and did something else and later that day she moved along with me on the final decision I had made.

    My wife did have a basic commitment to being submissive and respectful when I married her. Also, I was fortunate that she was not overly rebellious. I realize not all Christian wives have the same foundational beliefs as my wife.

  59. Bee says:

    ACThinker,

    “I’d love to see one, or even many parts that could be made into one.

    Larry over at FM or Dalrock, care to give it some go?”

    My take, I slowly raised my Alpha and leadership (Marriage Game, LTR Game, with humor) and it worked for me. But, I know that is risky. Some guys do that and as soon as the wife senses a change in the power/leadership she divorces him.

    I like Anonymous Reader’s comment above:

    “Marriage betaizes a man, unless he realizes what is happening and pushes back against it in multiple ways, starting inside his own mind.

    Someone needs to take Athol Kay’s original Male Action Plan and modify it a bit to fit Christian ethics. Because the churches won’t help men even a smidge – men like Hmm are very much the exception to this rule. The androsphere is the only place with real, tested, methods to deal with a contentious or rebellious wife.”

  60. Paul says:

    Another point to see if your (future) wife is willing to accept biblical teaching:

    1 Co 7
    … and likewise the wife [should give] to her husband [his conjugal rights]. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does…

    Does she acknowledge that her husband has authority over her body w.r.t. sexuality? Does she (willingly) give her husband his conjugal rights?

  61. BillyS says:

    Bee,

    You were blessed as you note. My exwife complied to many things, but only that. She never really submitted and it took her almost 30 years to rebel against God’s clear word to her (to marry me) and my own leadership, but she undermined it even before we were married.

    I wish I had realized it before hand, but I do believe God had a hand in things, so perhaps I had to walk through this. (He didn’t cause her to divorce, but gave her the chance for better in her life, which she ultimately rejected.)

  62. ACThinker says:

    Bee,

    Thank you. there might be something practical there. And I understand that some marriages are not going to to savable (Like BillyS). It is just again, we can categorize how people think, and find ways of responding, or better proactively acting to get a functional marriage in a Christian frame.*
    I agree a recognition that the Churches, the legal system, and people we know, will not help us build a functional marriage. That is why I’m putting it out here. and it is great that we’ve identified large areas of problem, but finding ways of fixing it for each man individually. I’ve seen Larry over at FM post in his comments “Ok but what do I tell my 23 year old son” We are building the future, we have to figure out how to do it.

    I like the ideas of increasing Alphaness and Leadership. I’ve noted (mostly to myself) that a woman marries a man who she thinks can ‘take on her father’ in some measure that is important to her. Classically it was outright strength, but today it could be other features, like earning power or intelligence. This ability to defeat her childhood protector and thus become her adult protector. If he can’t do this, then why would she need him?
    Anyhow this is coupled with the fact that she wants to be Belle to his Beast. Some obviously very powerful creature (a Man) whom only she can really tame. But once that is done, she often is not satisfied that he stays tamed, for she is still looking for him to take on her father – and thus still be the new protector. Which circles back to being Alpha enough and show leadership enough

    * I have no better way of saying that, and it still sounds like group think or word salad.

  63. Hose_B says:

    @DrTorch
    I will also add that when I was having marital problems and some church lay-counselors volunteered to help, they sounded a lot like Dr. Force, and this was over 10 years ago. This nonsense has etched away faithful men from the church

    “etched away” isnt the danger. Faithful men are being testing like Job to see if they will curse God and die. Thats the primary objective of Satan, getting man to Curse God. Sinning is inevitable…………but when even turning to the church is not a real option, it is easy to confuse the worldly church with God. If Satan can convince men that these worldly churches are representing God, then when the men rightly reject the corrupted church, they might reject God as well. It is a deadly trap. and one that Satan is using well.

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  65. Bee says:

    BillyS,

    I am sorry for what you have had to go through. I have read and appreciated your comments here.

    The church where I attended and met my wife taught female submission, but they did not mention it frequently, not even once per year. I was very fortunate. I know guys from that same church, that were just as involved and dedicated as I was, who married women from that church and are now divorced.

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