God spoke to him about the holy threatpoint.

3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3 Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

— 1 Pet 3:1-6, ESV

Complementarian Gary Thomas went to a Christian Woman’s conference and was confronted by a stream of women complaining about their husbands.

I recently spoke at a long-standing North American woman’s conference and was overwhelmed by the quantity and horrific nature of things wives are having to put up with in their marriages. Between sessions, I was bombarded by heartfelt inquiries: “What does a wife do when her husband does this? Or that? Or keeps doing this?” It broke my heart…

He found the odds of this happening so unlikely that he concluded it must have been the hand of God:

…I don’t think it was an accident that I was constantly stopped at that woman’s conference and forced to hear despicable story after despicable story (“forced” isn’t the right word. I could, of course, have walked away). I think God wanted me to see the breadth and depth of what is going on, and in this case, perhaps to be His voice.

The message from God that Thomas took away from this freak series of presumably random encounters is the importance of the wakeup call theology (emphasis original):

Christian leaders and friends, we have to see that some evil men are using their wives’ Christian guilt and our teaching about the sanctity of marriage as a weapon to keep harming them. I can’t help feeling that if more women started saying, “This is over” and were backed up by a church that enabled them to escape instead of enabling the abuse to continue, other men in the church, tempted toward the same behavior, might finally wake up and change their ways.

Christians are more likely to have one-income families, making some Christian wives feel even more vulnerable. We have got to clean up our own house. We have got to say “Enough is enough.” We have got to put the fear of God in some terrible husbands’ hearts, because they sure don’t fear their wives and their lack of respect is leading to ongoing deplorable behavior.

I want a man who was abusive to have to explain to a potential second wife why his saintly first wife left him. Let men realize that behavior has consequences, and that wives are supposed to be cherished, not used, not abused, and never treated as sexual playthings. If a man wants the benefit and companionship of a good woman, let him earn it, and re-earn it, and let him know it can be lost.

Note that when he says “fear of God”, he means fear of wife.

H/T The Question

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283 Responses to God spoke to him about the holy threatpoint.

  1. squid_hunt says:

    Between sessions, I was bombarded by heartfelt inquiries: “What does a wife do when her husband does this? Or that? Or keeps doing this?” It broke my heart…

    Anyone want to tell me what commandment (To the church, even.) was broken here?

    This is why I don’t send my wife to women’s conferences. Any man trying to get women alone to complain about their husbands or so he can show them up is a pervert. I don’t care how you defend it. He’s up to something.

  2. Pingback: God spoke to him about the holy threatpoint. | @the_arv

  3. Matthew Henard says:

    “because they sure don’t fear their wives” He says it all right there.

  4. Rob says:

    I’ve seen this for years, and have lived it. Just listened to Greg Laurie. There was a male evangelist interviewed. He claimed the “kingdom work nearly cost me my family,” and, “my wife had every right to walk out.” So, reverse Hamsterese for, “I didn’t kiss her EAP ass nearly enough, although I was serving Christ .” This stuff is absolutely unbelievable, but is very real and mainstream.

  5. Cane Caldo says:

    I’ve now read five of his his “top posts” and I note that he has several recommendations for things that women shouldn’t put up with or should be warning signs against men , and several lists of things that men as a group are prone to do wrong. The reverse is not true. The gist is that men exhibit patterns of evil while women are just helpless creatures trying to safely navigate a world of male abuse, and so they sometimes fall to unpredictable temptations to evil because men.

    You know…just like the archetype for human relations shown in Genesis 3…

  6. Adam says:

    I want a man who was abusive to have to explain to a potential second wife why his saintly first wife left him.

    That divorce thing seems to have really become standard operating procedure in the Church.

  7. Cane Caldo says:

    I am compelled by the historical abundance of Christian and Western foolishness to post-script that the last sentence of my previous comment is deeply sarcastic.

  8. Wayne says:

    The one response that would really bring a transformation – unearned respect – is the last thing a woman will try. Instead, they resort to the Feminist endorsed, gynocentric approach of solipsistic ‘helplessness’, and blame the man for any contention. But when we consider all the damage done through their gossip, slander, and ‘lowering the boom’, it’s obvious that they are not truly helpless, but are merely disobedient to God’s Word, written at the top of the post. But isn’t it remarkable how that word ‘obedience’ is even more profane than ‘respect’!

  9. Jeff says:

    A lot of these women probably rejected a lot of nice guys on their path to marrying a bad boy.

  10. Well, well…..it looks like ol Gary Thomas got to be the “alpha” and “big monkey” at a confernce full of saintly, holy, and “i-love-jesus-more-than-anything” women. Men like this LOVE being the big shot in a room full of women like this.

    Conferences like this ALWAYS turn into a gripe fest.

    First, my question to all these women “why did you marry an abusive man?” Please, spare me that he lied and wooed you, and the second the ring was put on the finger he became this evil, abusive orgre. Right. Sure.

    The Word of God compels us to test to taste and see the “fruits of the spirit” you watch. You listen. You see what and how a potential mate behaves. If he is going to be “abusive” one will see that in his acyions. and marriage to Christian women is a competition to other women. Christian marriage today doesn’t mean anything to God. These women cloak their fake piety………

    And……………………..why would these women LEAVE their children in the care of an “evil, abusive man” while they attended this conference??????

    Let’s define “abusive” to me, that means physical HARM. All Christian men are abusive now?????

    Just wait til “me too” filters into the rank and file of women in church today. It’s going to make the man drought right now look like a paradise.

  11. KPP says:

    As Proverbs states, “The first to present his case seems right, until another comes forth to examine him.”
    These saintly wives are only one side of the story. I’m sure their accused-of-abuse husbands have a perspective too, but I guess that’s not important enough to seek out.
    If I were a speaker approached by a woman at a conference, my response would be, “I don’t know you or your husband and things like this should be handled at the local church level. Go see your pastor.”
    But, sadly, these days I don’t trust that the local pastors stand on the word of God here either.

  12. feeriker says:

    A lot of these women probably rejected a lot of nice guys on their path to marrying a bad boy.

    More likely is that most of them got kicked to the curb by the “bad boys” who gave them ‘gina tingles and, post carousel, are married to betabux schlubs they despise. The “abuse” angle is just projection.

  13. feeriker says:

    Just wait til “me too” filters into the rank and file of women in church today.

    I’m sure it already has.

  14. The Question says:

    As I learned as a child, there are two sides to every story and you don’t make judgments without getting both parties out first. This is why during a trial you have the prosecution and the defense give their respective arguments. But here it seems all it takes to condemn a man now in many churches, is the testimony of his wife.

    I don’t quite recall who said it (maybe Mark Driscoll?) and where, but I distinctly recall reading a post by one pastor who had been counseling a wife that said her husband was abusive because he grabbed her. When the pastor asked the husband about it, he said “yeah, because she came at me with a kitchen knife!” When the pastor then asked the wife about it, she reacted nonchalantly as though it was an irrelevant fact not worth including.

    Again, not sure if that was Driscoll, but that may have explained why he eventually gave a sermon taking a few shots at bad behavior in wives.

  15. earl says:

    We have got to put the fear of God in some terrible husbands’ hearts, because they sure don’t fear their wives and their lack of respect is leading to ongoing deplorable behavior.

    Husbands aren’t supposed to respect their wives…they are supposed to love them.

    This respect thing comes from the egalitarian nonsense.

  16. Daniel says:

    There’s no issue with a woman separating from her husband. Sometimes for her safety she has to leave. Paul acknowledges this reality:

    And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. I Cor. 7:10-11

    Biblically, she doesn’t get to take anything with her, including his children, house, or monetary obligations. But she is allowed to depart if necessary. She is not imprisoned. But Mr. Thomas peaks of divorce being used as a weapon, when Biblical separation is nothing of the kind.

    A husband is not to fear his wife. A wife is to fear her husband.

    Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence [φοβῆται] her husband. – Eph. 5:33

    The word here translated “reverence” is commonly used to command us to “Fear” God. A wife is to fear God and her husband with the same kind of filial fear.

  17. Embracing Reality says:

    “Enabling the abuse”.. And what, exactly, are the standards for what qualifies as abuse? Because if selfish manipulative women are allowed to define anything they don’t like as abuse, they will. Control, power, becomes as simple as screaming “abuse” the minute a wife doesn’t get her way in every last thing. I know honorable, kind, generous men who live and have lived as victims of their wives for decades. Their selfish wives keep them jumping through hoop after hoop. Husbands living lives of drudgery trying to pay for an exhausting routine of things she wants to do. Piling up mountains of debt as she greedily pursues her voracious consumerism. Husbands who’s only hope is the sweet release of death.

    Men fearing wives? Yeah, with good reason I fear a wife and I’ve never been married.

  18. earl says:

    OT slightly but concerning with clergy. A female rabbi came up with this most ridiculous assertion.

    ‘Female Rabbi Publishes The Single Stupidest Piece On Biblical Adam And Eve Ever Written. It’s Not Close.’

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/26947/female-rabbi-publishes-single-stupidest-piece-ben-shapiro

    ‘The story that begins the bible, the first one that we learn in Sunday school, the founding story of man and woman upheld for thousands of years by Judeo-Christian religion, is actually the story of the first sexual assault of a woman. The woman’s name is Eve. And the perpetrator? God.’

    ‘I want you to think about this. Here is a young, beautiful, intelligent, naked woman living in a state of Grace. She’s hungry, so she does the most natural thing in the world and eats a piece of fruit. For following her instincts, trusting herself, and nourishing her body, she is punished. Her punishment? She will never again feel safe in her nakedness. She will never again love her body. She will never again know her body as a place of sacred sovereignty.’

  19. squid_hunt says:

    @Question:

    My wife used to run to the pastor every time she couldn’t push past me. The last time, it didn’t work the way she wanted it to in that I fought back. She’d do everything she could to skew their opinion of me, so she would look like the victim and I would look like the aggressor. I had enough and decided I wasn’t take the abuse anymore and suddenly she didn’t want to play.

    I will not tolerate another pastor interfering in my marriage. They can sit and hash it out all they like. He’s welcome to take her into his house and pay for her food and clothing if he wants to be in charge. I’m not playing along with the games any more. (And truly, I have Dalrock and this site to thank for a lot of that turning around.)

  20. earl says:

    Yeah, with good reason I fear a wife and I’ve never been married.

    I don’t fear a wife or women…I fear the unjust state/courts that destroy men and families if she so chooses to go that route. It has nothing to do with her own power…it’s the white knights in positions of power.

  21. Kevin says:

    Were don’t have enough information to make any conclusion. Given the world we live in and these pastors everything fits the typical patterns of ridiculous Christian feminism. Are these men not supporting their kids enough by going to games because they are too busy working, or are they beating the children and wife with a baseball bat? The problem with these pastors and Christian feminism is that they cannot tell the difference between the two and so we have no idea what they are responding to.

    Should a woman leave or threaten to leave a man who beats her or her children? Yes- right away. The church should reach out and try to help them reconcile and repent. But when every pastor has been trained to equate “he doesn’t take us on nice enough vacations” with real physical abuse, then their advice is as useless as expected. They have lost the plot and so cannot offer any real direction.

    Of course just for documentation reasons we should point out that no ones goes to a mens conference horrified by how men are being ignored, emotionally worn down, denied the basic comforts of life.

    Its all the feminist/college/#metoo crap. Regret sex=rape. Sex to get a job regret 10 years later with the job and power=rape. My husband not giving me tingles = rape/abuse. Unattractive guy hit on me = rape.

  22. Lost Patrol says:

    Come on Gary.

    http://www.garythomas.com/about/

    You’ve spoken at retreats and conferences and written 5,000 books and all the usual stuff. You’ve met thousands of Christian men or at least men that attend church services. How are these the same men that are connected in any way with this statement?

    I recently spoke at a long-standing North American woman’s conference and was overwhelmed by the quantity and horrific nature of things wives are having to put up with in their marriages.

    “Overwhelmed by the quantity and horrific nature”?
    Religious guys are responsible for this?
    Maybe you’re right but I can’t put those two things together from what I’ve seen.

    At least you got to be the AMOG at a women’s conference. I can’t match that.

  23. feeriker says:

    I fear the unjust state/courts that destroy men and families if she so chooses to go that route. It has nothing to do with her own power…it’s the white knights in positions of power.

    THIS.

  24. Sean the Baptist says:

    The circle of churches I attend do not endorse divorce for any reason, yet that didn’t stop several wives from sharing this article around Facebook. Their husbands don’t use it so have no clue about this.

  25. feeriker says:

    Of course just for documentation reasons we should point out that no ones goes to a mens conference horrified by how men are being ignored, emotionally worn down, denied the basic comforts of life.

    Just how many Christian “Men’s Conferences” take place each year? Very few, I’d say, probably mostly because most Christian men don’t have their wives’ permission to attend.

  26. Caspar Reyes says:

    @KPP

    If I were a speaker approached by a woman at a conference, my response would be, “I don’t know you or your husband and things like this should be handled at the local church level. Go see your pastor.”

    Wrong. That’s no better than going to a women’s conference.

    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. ~1 Co. 14:35

    The Apostle knew exactly what he was about. Sometime commenter and former pastor Kirk Forlatt has a blog where he addressed this question a while back in a post called “Wives, Cuck Your Husbands in Church”

    https://kirkforlatt.wordpress.com/2016/02/03/wives-cuck-your-husbands-in-church/

    Here’s the meat of the matter. That portion of Scripture is designed to prevent wives from spiritually cuckolding their husbands with the Professional Pastor. Who’s to be the spiritual head of the woman…the husband, or the pastor?

  27. squid_hunt says:

    @Kevin

    Should a woman leave or threaten to leave a man who beats her or her children? Yes- right away.

    I don’t agree that this is black and white. My position is that I would never counsel a woman to remain with an abusive husband. But. I happen to know personally a guy that was the meanest, most nasty drunk you’d ever meet. His wife stayed with him and put up with all the classic abuse. Trusted God to get her through it. He finally got saved and now he’s one of the sweetest, most loving pastors and men I’ve ever known. I think she should follow and trust God in that situation, whichever way she goes.

  28. Darwinian Arminian says:

    I want a man who was abusive to have to explain to a potential second wife why his saintly first wife left him.

    The saintly first wife, however, will never have to worry about being asked why she chose to respond to her abuse by unilaterally terminating her marriage with a no-fault divorce that didn’t require her to show any proof of her dastardly husband’s many evil deeds, which we nonetheless still know he must be guilty of.

    Let men realize that behavior has consequences, and that wives are supposed to be cherished, not used, not abused, and never treated as sexual playthings. If a man wants the benefit and companionship of a good woman, let him earn it, and re-earn it, and let him know it can be lost.

    Would the Pastor also consider me to be using the woman as a sexual plaything if we just had an informal arrangement where I slept with her whenever she was in the mood for it and I left when she felt that the relationship had run its course? Because the only difference I can see between that and the kind of “marriage” he just described is that in both options she can walk away with the blessing of God and the church whenever she likes, whereas I’m forbidden from doing the same if I make the mistake of putting a ring on her finger before the sex begins.

    And pastors wonder why so many men have no interest in getting married . . . .

  29. earl says:

    I happen to know personally a guy that was the meanest, most nasty drunk you’d ever meet. His wife stayed with him and put up with all the classic abuse. Trusted God to get her through it.

    I find it more amazing that in actual cases of physical abuse the wife often stays…when it’s things like calling hurt feelings abuse is the times a divorce is more apt to happen.

  30. PokeSalad says:

    Of course just for documentation reasons we should point out that no ones goes to a mens conference horrified by how men are being ignored, emotionally worn down, denied the basic comforts of life.

    Women go to “Womens’ Conferences” to beat up on men.
    Men go to “Mens’ Conferences” to beat up on themselves.

  31. Bee says:

    @squid_hunt,

    “Anyone want to tell me what commandment (To the church, even.) was broken here?”

    The command and principle that every fact must be confirmed by two or three witnesses. That principle is stated 4 different times in the Bible.

    Also, what KPP & The Question highlighted about the need to listen to the husband’s side of the story; Proverbs 18: 17

    “The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.”

  32. Bee says:

    @Cane Caldo,

    “I’ve now read five of his his “top posts” and I note that he has several recommendations for things that women shouldn’t put up with or should be warning signs against men , and several lists of things that men as a group are prone to do wrong. The reverse is not true. ”

    Thomas wrote a book about how wives can disciple and change their husbands. I searched both Amazon and his own blog and could not find any corresponding book on how husbands can shape and change their wives.

  33. OKRickety says:

    seventiesjason: ‘Just wait til “me too” filters into the rank and file of women in church today.’

    feeriker: ‘I’m sure it already has.’

    Definitely has. As I understand it, Hannah Paasch and Emily Joy started #ChurchToo about Nov. 21, 2017.

  34. Anonymous Reader says:

    Just wait til “me too” filters into the rank and file of women in church today.

    Search on #ChurchToo it is already out there.

  35. Anon says:

    Unfortunately, this type of ‘men are bad, women are good’ conditioning is all but impossible to break. A man has to arrive at red-pill thought on his own.

    Given the vast forces arrayed against a man if he considers marriage, the risk is just far too high.

    Pastorbators like the one in the main article are everywhere, and a pernicious cancer.

  36. Anonymous Reader says:

    Words we will never see outside the androsphere:
    If a woman wants the benefit and love of a good man, let her earn it, and re-earn it, and let her know it can be lost.

    Funny how feminine respect must be earned and then constantly re-earned, but masculine love is supposed to be a constant, like sunshine or an electrical utility.

  37. Oscar says:

    “What does a wife do when her husband does this? Or that? Or keeps doing this?”

    Does WHAT, exactly?

    @ Bee

    Note that the husband is represented by a flower, and the wife is cleansing him by the washing of water with the word.

  38. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @Kevin
    Of course just for documentation reasons we should point out that no ones goes to a mens conference horrified by how men are being ignored, emotionally worn down, denied the basic comforts of life.

    Not only are not horrified, they’ll practically boast that they’re doing this to them. Matt Chandler’s “Beautiful Design” sermon to men is still an apt demonstration of this:

    “When women go to women’s retreats, they just get encouraged. ‘You guys are awesome. You can do it! All right!’ Men get blown up. You go to a man thing. You’re just going to hear how much you’ve failed and how bad you stink and why the whole world is broken because you’re so worthless. That’s kind of how we do it, and it’s the right way to do it.”

  39. DR Smith says:

    Seriously Dalrock – where do you find these guys? Is there a special place in hell you go to conger up these types??

    I read all 366 comments to that linked article – not one was positive, all about how horrible their husbands where, are, etc.. This was just one article….if this article was indicative of what goes on at this site, then half the woman in America whom are still currently married must have really shitty lives!
    Feminist pastor goes to feminist conference and surprise surprise! – he meets nothing but bitchy self absorbed pussy hatters whom are married to the worst husbands imaginable and please please Mr. Nice Feminist Pastor tell me that God told you that I need to get divorced like yesterday, Woman are not the real issue – it is people like this pastor (can’t call him a guy or man, as that was taken from him years ago it seems) that are the ones bringing down our society.,..and they are the ones that must be removed.from their positions of power & influence..

  40. OKRickety says:

    feeriker: ‘Just how many Christian “Men’s Conferences” take place each year?’

    Such conferences definitely have been significant in the past. For example, Promise Keepers had many in the 1990s, peaking in 1996 with about 1.1 million men attending 22 conferences in stadiums in the USA.

    As I recall from my one experience, they had a similar perspective as Gary Thomas and his ilk. There was also a heavy dose of the same general approach being applied to racism. Once was enough for me, and apparently many others, as it effectively disappeared about as quickly as it started.

  41. Anonymous Reader says:

    Bee
    Thomas wrote a book about how wives can disciple and change their husbands. I searched both Amazon and his own blog and could not find any corresponding book on how husbands can shape and change their wives.

    That just tells us he knows where the market is. As a rule men don’t buy many self-help books (Rollo’s books are the exception, the “Love languages” is another) but women are always ready to read more words about “relationships”. (Yes, I know, NAWALT, the exceptions prove the rule)

    There just isn’t money to be made in telling women to stop complaining, stop nagging, stop being passive-aggressively sharp tounged, and start trying to get along with their husbands. No market for that talk.

  42. OKRickety says:

    DR Smith: ‘I read all 366 comments to that linked article – not one was positive, all about how horrible their husbands where, are, etc.. This was just one article….if this article was indicative of what goes on at this site, then half the woman in America whom are still currently married must have really shitty lives!’

    I have wondered if selections from a source like those “366 comments” should be required reading for all young men. If afterwards any of them still considered marriage to be of interest, they would have at least been warned. For that matter, I don’t understand how any young women reading them could be so ignorant that they would still desire marriage, either.

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    DR Smith
    Seriously Dalrock – where do you find these guys?

    I’m not Dalrock, but men like this are very common across the churchgoing side of the web. It’s really easy to find them via any of the common religious websites, such as Christianity Today.

    Denomination doesn’t really matter, either; Protestants, Roman Catholics and Jewish writers all share in the man bashing party. Because all of us swim in a sewer of feminism, and if a man is not actively rejecting feminism, he’s passively accepting it.

  44. Damn Crackers says:

    “You are sinful bachelor. Change your ways!”
    “You are a sinful husband. Change your ways!”
    “Don’t you know the castrated cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven?”

    Which one is correct?

  45. Bee says:

    @Oscar,

    “Note that the husband is represented by a flower, and the wife is cleansing him by the washing of water with the word.”

    Good point on the symbolism of the picture. They really have inverted the husband’s role to lead and wash his wife with the Word. They fear, and do not trust, husband leadership.

  46. paddy says:

    An older woman (by 20 years than me) I know, a friend, intelligent, speaks several languages, is a grandmother, has complained to me at times also.

    Yet I know her true home situation: she has a helper who cooks all their meals for them; she was 3 times divorced, had a kid, then married husband #4 (been married for 20+ years) who raised her daughter as if it were his own. etc. etc.

    Women LIKE to complain; it’s one of their main hobbies.

  47. virginia says:

    So many awful things in that article that it’s difficult to know where to start. But I’ll pick one:

    “Her husband is a persistent porn addict. He has neglected her sexually except to fulfill his own increasingly bent desires. He keeps dangling divorce over her head, which makes her feel like a failure as a Christian. He presented her with a list of five things he wanted to do that he saw done in porn, and if she wasn’t willing, he was through with the marriage. She agreed to four of them, but just couldn’t do the fifth. And she feels guilty.

    God hates divorce, right?

    This is monstrous and vile. This woman needs to be protected from such grotesque abuse, and if divorce is the only weapon to protect her, then the church should thank God such a weapon exists.”

    So the husband is guilty of “monstrous and vile” sin for threatening his wife with divorce for failing to fulfill his sexual desires. Yet he is also sinning by neglecting his wife sexually. And the remedy for his sin is for . . . his wife to threaten him with divorce.

    Does this guy read his stuff before he publishes it?

  48. Anonymous Reader says:

    Also bear in mind that the term “abuse” as used in the modern church-going sphere has much more to do with the Duluth Power Wheel than it does with anything from the Bible.

    The usual motte -and- bailey or bait-and-switch rules apply: the definition of “abuse” can change very quickly in one of these debates. To be blunt, it is dishonest to equate a man raising his voice to his wife with a man punching her in the face. But that’s the game that is played.

  49. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    and never treated as sexual playthings.

  50. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    What on earth is wrong with playful sex?

  51. Gary Eden says:

    If she is not your sexual plaything then she is not your wife. That is what the Bible teaches is a big part of what marriage is for.

    Clearly, lots of women complaining about being pressured for sex.

  52. earl says:

    I guess I’ll state the obvious since the narrative doesn’t seem to change with these pastors.

    Why would a man go to these type of churches? A man wants to be challenged to be better…not insulted and demeaned because he is a man.

  53. Random Angeleno says:

    There just isn’t money to be made in telling women to stop complaining, stop nagging, stop being passive-aggressively sharp tounged, and start trying to get along with their husbands. No market for that talk.

    I recall Dr Laura tried it. Her books were bestsellers once, but she has since been marginalized. A combination of social trends and her own conduct. Today her books would be considered misogynistic and she would be pilloried were she to return to the spotlight she once had.

  54. thedeti says:

    I distinctly recall reading a post by one pastor who had been counseling a wife that said her husband was abusive because he grabbed her. When the pastor asked the husband about it, he said “yeah, because she came at me with a kitchen knife!”

    That’s not counseling. That’s divorce court. That’s swear out a police complaint and press charges. That’s filing civil lawsuit. Wife committed a felony – assault with a deadly weapon. Wife should not be in a pastor’s office; she should be in the county lockup awaiting trial.

  55. earl says:

    There just isn’t money to be made in telling women to stop complaining, stop nagging, stop being passive-aggressively sharp tounged, and start trying to get along with their husbands.

    There’s probably no money in it…but you would certainly be controversial enough against the approved groupthink(TM) to get plenty of attention.

  56. Damn Crackers says:

    Oddly enough, many of the early Churches in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Centuries celebrated celibate married couples:

    But God forbid that the nuptial bond should be regarded as broken between those who have by mutual consent agreed to observe a perpetual abstinence from the use of carnal concupiscence. Nay, it will be only a firmer one, whereby they have exchanged pledges together, which will have to be kept by a special endearment and concord—not by the voluptuous links of bodies, but by the voluntary affections of souls. For it was not deceitfully that the angel said to Joseph: Fear not to take unto you Mary your wife. Matthew 1:20 She is called his wife because of her first troth of betrothal, although he had had no carnal knowledge of her, nor was destined to have. The designation of wife was neither destroyed nor made untrue, where there never had been, nor was meant to be, any carnal connection.

    -St. Augustine, 17 Short Treatises

    Also, see St. Isadore the Farmer and his marriage to St. Maria in the 12th Century as an example of what is called a Josephite Marriage.

  57. The Question says:

    @thedeti

    “That’s not counseling. That’s divorce court.”

    In normal world run by sane men, yes. However, in churchianity it’s a godly tantrum just like smashing wedding china against the walls.

  58. Gunner Q says:

    “Seriously Dalrock – where do you find these guys?”

    They don’t try to hide. It’s not like Gary Thomas is running any kind of risk, twisting Christianity into attacking fathers. Exposing the latest femitwit is the easiest sort of post I can write.

    The groupthink is unbelievable. I despise my species.

  59. earl says:

    But God forbid that the nuptial bond should be regarded as broken between those who have by mutual consent agreed to observe a perpetual abstinence from the use of carnal concupiscence.

    That’s the important distinction there. Most of the time it’s not mutual consent when someone in the marriage decides to go sexless.

  60. Jim says:

    Complementarian Gary Thomas went to a Christian Woman’s conference and was confronted by a stream of women complaining about their husbands.

    No surprise there. Bitches are going to bitch. This pussy doesn’t realize that these cunts just need some strong discipline. Instead, this idiot insists that men should just bend over and take these cunts strap on forever and without complaint, no matter how cunty these women act.

    Note that when he says “fear of God”, he means fear of wife.

    Yup. In a just world this piece of shit would be run out of the church faster than you can say “cuck”.

    This loser is just another chickenshit male feminist pretending to be a Christian.

  61. Bee says:

    “There just isn’t money to be made in telling women to stop complaining, stop nagging, stop being passive-aggressively sharp tounged, and start trying to get along with their husbands. No market for that talk.”

    I know a woman who was close to divorce and had gone to several different marriage counselors with her husband, none were helpful or wise. Then she read “The Surrendered Wife”, went to the conference, and paid for the 6 months of counseling. Her marriage is much better now, she speaks very positively and respectfully about her husband. Quite impressive to observe.

    http://www.surrenderedwife.com/

    I have not read the book.

  62. OKRickety says:

    Augustine: ‘… they have exchanged pledges together, which will have to be kept by a special endearment and concord—not by the voluptuous links of bodies, but by the voluntary affections of souls. For it was not deceitfully that the angel said to Joseph: Fear not to take unto you Mary your wife. Matthew 1:20 She is called his wife because of her first troth of betrothal, although he had had no carnal knowledge of her, nor was destined to have. The designation of wife was neither destroyed nor made untrue, where there never had been, nor was meant to be, any carnal connection.’

    Contrary to Augustine’s implication, I believe those “voluptous links of bodies” by husband and wife will only increase the “voluntary affections of souls”. He follows that ridiculous idea by arguing that a normal marriage can somehow be equated to Joseph and Mary’s relationship during their betrothal (prior to their later normal marriage). I am generally ignorant of what Augustine wrote and, if this is any indication of his general thinking, I believe I am better off for it.

  63. earl says:

    I know a woman who was close to divorce and had gone to several different marriage counselors with her husband, none were helpful or wise.

    Marriage counselors spout the same groupthink as the media, pastors, or anyone else involved with marriage. Tearing the husband down doesn’t help the marriage or her feelings about the marriage.

  64. Kevin says:

    @squid_hunt

    I did not mean to imply divorce – I mean get herself and kids to safety. Having lived through it many Moms tolerate abuse of the children. But this is neither here nor there. The point is these types of situations that are individual and complicated could be handled by pastors if their hearts were not so deep into the feminism that they are complete confused and worthless.

  65. Gary Eden says:

    It was the perverted teaching of Augustine and those who came before him that set us on the feminist women worshipping path we are on today.

  66. Anonymous Reader says:

    There just isn’t money to be made in telling women to stop complaining, stop nagging, stop being passive-aggressively sharp tounged, and start trying to get along with their husbands. No market for that talk.

    Random Angeleno
    I recall Dr Laura tried it. Her books were bestsellers once, but she has since been marginalized. A combination of social trends and her own conduct.

    Good point.She moved from syndicated radio to XM, no idea if she’s still there or not.

    @Bee
    surrendered wife

    Interesting link.

    I also forgot about Shaunti Feldhahn who has written several books on men and women. They won’t be found in the “marriage and relationships” section of the chain bookstore, but rather in the “Christian” section.

    I’ll modify my previous statement: there is a market for such instruction, it’s rather a niche. But it does exist.

  67. Anonymous Reader says:

    Cripes, that was a major HTML fail. All l meant to do was bold the first paragraph.

    [D: Fixed.]

  68. Damn Crackers says:

    @Earl – Very true what you pointed out. My only point was that celibate marriages were celebrated by the early Church Fathers. The people here can argue whether or not that supports or goes against what St. Paul had to say on the matter.

    @Gary Eden – Honestly, the idea of complete celibacy and anti-sexuality even in marriage entered into the nascent Christian movement around the time of the Desert Fathers. Some of what Augustine wrote, contrary to most writers on Christian sexuality, was trying to compromise between the extreme positions of the ascetics and traditionalists. We’ve covered these ideas here before.

  69. Paul says:

    If a man wants the benefit and companionship of a good woman, let him earn it, and re-earn it, and let him know it can be lost.

    I’m baffled. How can anyone in their sound minds come up with such heretical drivel? Threatening men that their future “good” wives will divorce them as soon as he does not constantly re-earn the companionship of his wife. This is the destruction of marriage as a covenant.

    Notice how the woman is assumed to be “good” (women do not sin, do they?) whereas from the start man is already made suspect as potential abuser.

    I say this is an outright declaration of WAR on MEN!

  70. Anon says:

    This Gary Thomas pastorbator is a supreme example of both doubling down on his goddess-cult beliefs, as well as cartoonish chivalry.

  71. White Guy says:

    Not often have I ever wanted to ball up my fist after reading something, but this really, really, brings about a righteous anger from deep within me. I’ve never raised my hand in anger to my wife, but the opposite is not true. –Not like she could really hurt me, well she did try, to cause me some pain 3 days after surgery a couple of weeks ago (she’s a RN no less!). Pro-tip from white guy, don’t let a angry woman ‘help you’ after having a tendon reattached and don’t try to make any big decisions while on narcotics .

    A couple of days ago she brought up the threat of divorce, again, (in typical women around about fashion) I told her hold on, went out to the car and retrieved some blank divorce papers, then I told her to fill them out and take them down to the courthouse, I was tired of being constantly threatened with it.

    Of course she said she didn’t want that and tossed them back at me. (I retrieved them of course, can’t let the kids see this, and put them away)
    Told her, next time she brings up divorce I will be the one to file. I AM SO FUCKING TIRED of this shit. We shall see if it actually stuck, I give it a 50/50 chance that her mouth blows this thing up before the end of the year.

    Thanks Deti and the rest of the brothers here for helping me find my spine, feels good to have it back in place.

  72. Bee says:

    @White Guy,

    Have you tried Soft Dread? Clerk Game? Come home from running errands and tell her about the clever, witty things you bantered about with the cashier at the store, waitress, etc.

  73. Pingback: God spoke to him about the holy threatpoint. | Reaction Times

  74. Oscar says:

    @ Bee says:
    February 9, 2018 at 12:43 pm

    “They really have inverted the husband’s role to lead and wash his wife with the Word. They fear, and do not trust, husband leadership.”

    Ultimately, they don’t trust God. After all, God created husbands’ and wives’ roles.

  75. Cripes, that was a major HTML fail. All l meant to do was bold the first paragraph.

    @AR Had me in tears, all that HTML yelling while we are trying to discuss abuse.

  76. thedeti says:

    No problem White Guy.

    Wives don’t get to hit or intentionally injure their husbands, and they don’t get to threaten divorce. If she hits you or hurts you intentionally, you tell her that’s her “one free hit” and the next time it happens, you’ll go to the police department and swear out a criminal complaint against her, press charges, and remove the kids from the house. You’ll also ask for an order of protection/restraining order. And the divorce papers will be on file the next day. You’ll also ask your divorce lawyer for a referral to a personal injury attorney to investigate filing a civil lawsuit against her.

    If she threatens divorce, you get the papers, and you tell her to file them. If she doesn’t, or backpedals, you tell her not to threaten you again with divorce. You also tell her that if she ever at any time in the future threatens divorce, you will immediately get a lawyer and file.

    Frankly, White Guy, I think you should see a lawyer anyway. A wife who is a registered nurse who intentionally injures you (and she knew how to do it following a surgery) and threatens divorce is someone you don’t want to be married to. She could do worse next time. You might also consider reporting the incident to your state nursing licensing board.

  77. OKRickety says:

    AR,

    “Cripes, that was a major HTML fail. All l meant to do was bold the first paragraph.”

    Since we have no editing available when building a comment or after posting, I often use this on-line Real-time HTML Editor. Perhaps you would find it useful, too.

  78. thedeti says:

    Wives hit and intentionally injure their husbands because they can’t control or regulate their emotions, and they lash out and take out their frustrations on their husbands. They do this because he’s bigger, is more injury-resistant, and he can’t hit back. Plus – and I’ve actually heard wives say this – “well, he’s bigger! He’s stronger! He should just be able to take it! I’m just a little ol’ girl!!”

    Wives threaten divorce because either (a) they’re trying to manipulate and intimidate him or (b) they really do want to get divorced but they don’t want to be the “bad guy” who actually pulls the trigger and files. So they threaten and intimidate and make his life a living hell until he can’t take it anymore and he has no choice but to file so he doesn’t lose his mind. They want him to do it so they can say to all their friends and family “he’s divorcing me! Can you believe it! I didn’t do anything wrong! And now he’s abandoning me!”

  79. Cane Caldo says:

    @Bee and Oscar

    Well the author or publisher is playing a trick. In our minds we link flowers with women, and there is the verse about washing your wife with the water of the Word. But, as you note, the book is about how wives should alter their husbands. At best it’s ambiguous, and though it’s possible that it pictures role reversal, it could be that it is supposed to picture a man being improved and made useful by watering his tender little flower of a wife.

    None of that matters though because watering cans water, not wash, and flowers don’t need washing anyways. The picture given us in Scripture is of a wife as a dish that regularly gets dirty which the man needs to regularly clean with God’s Word.

    As Voddie Baucham says: I don’t write the mail. I just deliver it.

  80. White Guy says:

    Bee, yep this all started when I unplugged two years ago and my ‘dread’ has all been passive.
    Dread won’t fix crazy though. Case in point, a year ago I first started tracking her cycle, she took that as dread, thought I was tracking another woman’s cycle so I wouldn’t get her pregnant…(She knows I’ve had a vasectomy, go figure).
    Yeah, thanks Deti, I’ve seen a lawyer (a Christian White Knight, ugh) so I know my options. But I was living in hope that it would get better. Been seeing a therapist to help with my co-dependancy, and that coupled with the brothers in the ‘sphere, has helped me really establish my frame. Her actions and attitude over the last month has basically washed away all hope of this getting better. She is actually seeing a real therapist now, which has backed her off the cliff a little bit. – I am documenting the crazy as it comes though.

  81. feeriker says:

    For that matter, I don’t understand how any young women reading them could be so ignorant that they would still desire marriage, either.

    As Paddy pointed out upthread and as I remind everyone occasionally hereabouts, women LOVE drama. Indeed, they require it as a life-sustaining force along with food, oxygen, and water. To a woman, marriage –especially a horrible, “abusive” marriage– provides a continuous flow of life-sustaining drama that also gives a higher better than any heroin fix. Divorce, especially one that SHE initiates, causes even more and higher intensity drama, with the added bennie of allowing her to play the poor, “abused victim” role.

  82. feeriker says:

    celibate marriages were celebrated by the early Church Fathers

    I’m sorry, but “celibate marriage” is an oxymoron that ranks down there with “Christian feminist.”

    Yes, husbands and wives can abstain, by mutual agreement and for a certain period of time and for a specific purpose. But I seriously doubt that Paul intended for the abstinence to be permanent (unless on or both parties have some physical disability or ailment that prevents sexual congress). That is NOT a marriage.

    virginia quotes:

    Her husband is a persistent porn addict. He has neglected her sexually except to fulfill his own increasingly bent desires. He keeps dangling divorce over her head, which makes her feel like a failure as a Christian. He presented her with a list of five things he wanted to do that he saw done in porn, and if she wasn’t willing, he was through with the marriage. She agreed to four of them, but just couldn’t do the fifth. And she feels guilty.

    We have no idea what those “bent desires” or “five things he wanted to do that he saw done in porn,” but I’m gonna wager a year’s salary that this guy’s porn addiction didn’t exist until his wife “dead-bedroomed” him. To borrow a metaphor from Sunshine’s old blog from a few years back, she denied her husband her pure water and left him to drink out of the sewer. Doing so infected him with a disease that has only gotten worse with time and that stands a very good chance of destroying their marriage. Sadly, getting “the church” involved is likely to be tantamount to firing the fatal bullet that killed it.

    Once again, “ladies:” Dead-bedrooming your husband is not only sinful, it creates monsters that that destroy marriages and families. I will say this, though: the woman in virginia’s citation is lucky; apparently (at least from what little we read here) here husband at least restricted his sexual proclivities to porn and wasn’t cheating on her (although if he was a victim of “dead-bedrooming,” it would be difficult to blame him if he was).

  83. Anon says:

    feeriker,

    As Paddy pointed out upthread and as I remind everyone occasionally hereabouts, women LOVE drama. Indeed, they require it as a life-sustaining force along with food, oxygen, and water.

    Indeed. It is part of the reason women are obsolete.

    By contrast, a man over 40 really hates drama. Sometimes, peace and quiet are more desirable than the company of a woman, even a moderately attractive one, net-net (sex in the credit side of the ledger, drama and expense in the debit side).

    People thus underestimate how much of a disruption VR sex will be to the level of search costs men are willing to incur to pursue women. VR sex strips out drama, expense, STDs, legal risks, and unattractiveness out of the woman. Only the women who still do valuable things for a man, or is otherwise a 9 or 10, will have anything that he still wants.

  84. Anon says:

    deti,

    Wives don’t get to hit or intentionally injure their husbands, and they don’t get to threaten divorce. If she hits you or hurts you intentionally, you tell her that’s her “one free hit” and the next time it happens, you’ll go to the police department and swear out a criminal complaint against her, press charges, and remove the kids from the house.

    I think you know that this is not possible under the current legal regime. The ‘W’ in VAWA means it is a unilateral law. The man truly has no recourse unless he videotapes it, and even then that can be dismissed out of hand. Remember that the Federal Government gives grants to police departments to meet certain VAWA arrest quotas. There is no similar grant money for arresting women. Police who visit any private home will always look for a man to arrest for DV, even if the 911 call was for a fire or something.

  85. thedeti says:

    I’m gonna wager a year’s salary that this guy’s porn addiction didn’t exist until his wife “dead-bedroomed” him.

    I will never understand why people don’t get this. Wives, if you deprive your husbands of sex, you are driving a stake into the heart of your marriage and driving him to porn, hookers or cheating. It is the worst kind of marital cruelty and abuse.

  86. feeriker says:

    The ‘W’ in VAWA means it is a unilateral law.

    Which means that it is not truly law, since it violates the concept of equal protection under the law.

    Of course that doesn’t stop the Regime from enforcing it.

  87. feeriker says:

    It is the worst kind of marital cruelty and abuse.

    To themselves as wives as well. Amazing that women can’t even see something this obvious.

  88. earl says:

    Once again, “ladies:” Dead-bedrooming your husband is not only sinful, it creates monsters that that destroy marriages and families.

    Agreed…until proven otherwise(i.e. she didn’t dead bedroom him)…I’m going to assume most marital strife in the sexual arena was started by her.

  89. Anon says:

    feeriker,

    Amazing that women can’t even see something this obvious.

    Cause and effect is not something most women grasp.

    Of course that doesn’t stop the Regime from enforcing it.

    Never forget that it was cuckservatives, that too from the reddest states, that did the heavy lifting to make this into law. They pulled all-nighters. The recent VAWA extension and expansion was from Mike Crapo (R-ID). The same goes for imputation of paychecks to meet CS levels, imprisonment for nonpayment of ‘CS’, etc.

    Lefty ‘feminists’, while insane, are not focused enough to generate these innovations. Plus, they know too few married people in their daily lives to even contemplate how to uniquely screw up the man while benefiting the woman. It takes a Cuckservative from the reddest state to get it done.

  90. OKRickety says:

    Earl: ‘… I’m going to assume most marital strife in the sexual arena was started by her.’

    Reminds me of the book Sex Begins in the Kitchen by Dr. Kevin Leman (which I’ve never read but know the title). In it, when the wife comes home at the tail end of a long day and finds a “beautiful, sparkling-clean kitchen”, this is what happens:

    “… the guy may have a bald spot on the back of his head, his stomach may hang over his belt–just a little–and he may give the appearance that he’s trying hard to grow a second chin. But the old fellow has never looked more desirable to his wife than he does right now. And that’s what I mean when I tell you that sex begins in the kitchen.”

    In other words, he would probably claim that a dead bedroom is due to the husband’s failure to be a real man, not that the wife has failed in any way. I imagine the rest of the book is full of more of the same drivel.

  91. Anon says:

    Along similar lines :

    Uber’s analytics proves that the pay gap is a complete myth.

    The pay gap is an interesting meme. The fact that people only assert it as fact reveals :

    i) Exactly who should have no idea that you even exist, and certainly who you should never hire.
    ii) It is the ONE issue that even cuckservatives are brave enough to reject. Even NRO rejects the pay gap. There is no other ‘feminist’ meme that cuckservatives reject. Plus, cuckservatives have not normalized it over time, unlike what they do with every other leftism.
    iii) There are a number of women CEOs. Even in tech. They don’t hire women at a greater rate than companies with male CEOs at the helm. Oracle, HP, IBM, Yahoo, and a few others all have or recently had female CEOs. No surge in tech jobs for women.

    …and most importantly.

    iv) The ‘pay gap’, just like other illogical myths, reveals that the massive transfer of wealth to women could be reversed easily if just the government got ‘game’. In other words, since no amount of legislation and wealth transfer makes them admit anything in their favor ever passed, it is extremely easy for the government to quietly reduce all spending on women while running a massive wave of media interference, and still lose no female votes. Since women don’t track any objective progress towards a defined goal, they won’t notice a slealthy slippage away from that goal. The government is overpaying for the female vote, when the same can be purchased with far less taxpayer (aka male) money.

  92. earl says:

    In other words, he would probably claim that a dead bedroom is due to the husband’s failure to be a real man, not that the wife has failed in any way. I imagine the rest of the book is full of more of the same drivel.

    And it seems his idea from the excerpt of a ‘real man’ is one who does the cleaning and chores at home while his wife works. He’s her helpmate.

  93. Spike says:

    Can someone please tell me where all of these “abusive Christian husbands” that Pastors talk about, actually are? Anecdotally, I knew 2. One was a hell raiser whose conversion changed him completely. He went on to witness Jesus to my parents. The other abused his foster children and was jailed.
    This my anecdotal record of thirty years’ church attendance.
    Anecdotes are always bad for policy. Can a church team up with a polling company, like Morgan, Zogby or Pew, and conduct statistically relevant data on the epidemic of alleged abuse?

  94. virginia says:

    This may sound like a rant, but please hang with me, as I think this conference was a divine appointment. I can’t get this out of my mind.

    One husband began our conversation with, “God hates divorce, right?”

    “Yes,” I said. “I believe He does.”

    “So I’ve just got to accept what’s happening in my marriage, right?”

    When he told me what was happening, I quickly corrected him. “If the cost of saving a marriage is destroying a man, the cost is too high. God loves people more than he loves institutions.”

    His wife is a “Christian feminist.” She has neglected him sexually except for twice-a-year, lifeless “duty sex.” She keeps dangling divorce over his head, which makes him feel like a failure as a Christian. She presented him with a list of five household chores that, according to some articles she had read on feminist websites, he wasn’t spending enough time doing, and if he wasn’t willing to change that, she was through with the marriage. He agreed to four of them, but just couldn’t do the fifth. And he feels guilty.

    God hates divorce, right?

    This is monstrous and vile. This man needs to be protected from such grotesque abuse, and if divorce is the only weapon to protect him then the church should thank God such a weapon exists.

    . . . said no “Christian” marriage speaker, ever.

  95. virginia says:

    Also check out “My Daughter Talks to Her Dad about Modesty,” where his “strong-minded” 21-year-old daughter shares some pure, unadulterated feminism that she apparently picked up by attending a well-known “Baptist” university in Texas.

  96. earl says:

    Can someone please tell me where all of these “abusive Christian husbands” that Pastors talk about, actually are?

    My guess is the lion share of ‘abuse’ from Christian husbands are either he actually stood up to her and she has hurt feelings…or she’s just an unhappy woman and it must be her husband’s fault.

  97. feeriker says:

    His wife is a “Christian feminist.”

    Which is to say that she’s not a Christian at all. Let her lower the divorce boom if she wants to.

    But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 1st Corinthians 7:15

  98. SkylerWurden says:

    Josephite are fine for a very rare few in very rare circumstances and should only be taken up with the spiritual council of a priest and with very specific guidelines. In the vast, vast majority of cases there is no reason to engage in that type of marriage. The non-Catholics may not like it or agree, but Catholics are not bound by their opinions or their exegesis.

  99. feeriker says:

    .unadulterated feminism that she apparently picked up by attending a well-known “Baptist” university in Texas.

    There really is no such thing as “Christian” post-secondary education these days (and that goes even for seminaries and Bible colleges, I will assert). Catholics have been complaining for decades about how thoroughly converged so-called “Catholic Universities” are (e.g., Georgetown, Notre Dame, etc.). Now it’s happening to Protestant universities.

    I know exactly which “Baptist” university in Texas virginia is referring to. Baylor, if all the drama surrounding its Title IX sports programs is any indication, isn’t even seriously pretending to be a Christian school anymore.

  100. Per Desteen says:

    I really can’t be reading posts like this in detail anymore as it gets me riled up.

    I think there’s a place for meme-based black knighting campaigns that use the words of the AMOGing Pastor types like Gary that encourage men to pre-emptively divorce their wives to accomplish the following goals:

    1. The man can fully financially support his wife with a non-equal share of assets and future income, as payment for his past and future abuse.
    2. The man can take all the guilt, responsibility, and sin for past and future abuse, just like Jesus did, ensuring his former wife is sinless and pure.

    After all, why should the Church allow men to always screw things up with their sinful ways? Stop sinning and divorce today!

  101. “My Daughter Talks to Her Dad about Modesty” BUT if the guy in question gives her the tingles…its perfectly okay for to celebrate her beauty and how a man finds her attractive. Depends on the man who is “lusting” and this letter has the tone of “I should be able to dress any way I want in church or out and about because it’s the man’s problem not mine”

  102. infowarrior1 says:

    @Earl

    ”We have got to put the fear of God in some terrible wives’ hearts, because they sure don’t fear their husbands and their lack of respect is leading to ongoing deplorable behavior.”

    Fixed

  103. infowarrior1 says:

    @virginia
    ”university”

    The hotbed of feminist indoctrination.

  104. Scott says:

    I want a man who was abusive to have to explain to a potential second wife why his saintly first wife left him.

    This is how four year olds perceive the world.

  105. infowarrior1 says:

    @Damn Crackers

    Christian sexuality is divided into sex within the marital bed and celibacy outside of it. There should be no compromise with that position.

  106. infowarrior1 says:

    @The question
    ”When the pastor asked the husband about it, he said “yeah, because she came at me with a kitchen knife!”

    This sounds like a crime of attempted murder.

  107. Scott says:

    Those of us who have been through the “everything I never like about him was retroactively abuse” ringer and found ourselves scratching our heads in bewilderment after a fairly normal marriage with fairly common problems was detonated to the approving golf-clap of the entire local church will always have trouble taking these kinds of complaints seriously.

  108. CSI says:

    None of the unmarried men in Gary Thomas’s ministry should marry, because none of them are worthy, in his eyes, of marrying the radiant shining beacon of perfection that is any Christian women.

  109. Vincent says:

    Given how low the marriage rates are, and even the amount of people having sex–he doesn’t have to fear. Fewer and fewer women will have to suffer the horror of being married.

  110. Dota says:

    By North American standards, this woman is being “abused”

    I know my preference is for a man to be dominant in daily life. I like to be taken care of in that way. I like having my jacket handed to me, I like being asked after every bite at a restaurant, “Does it takes okay? Do you have enough spices?”, etc.

    I like being domestic in some ways. When we have friends over for dinner, and we’re done eating, here the women get up, take away the dishes, bring the men their coffee and cigars, and leave. And we’ll usually go out on the balcony with our coffee and cigarettes, and I just look at my husband and feel so proud, so you? I like… when he asks where his shirt is, I like that I know and he doesn’t. And I like the way he looks at me when I do something for him, or when I look especially nice.

    I think, in my head, these things are romantic. And maybe they’re old-fashioned in the West, but it’s how I prefer it. I like having my doors opened for me, I like how he shows me off when we’re out at parties and things and how constantly concerned he is with my comfort.

    And if that means I eat what he orders, and I sun tan in my bikini on the back lawn instead of front now, and I do the dishes at night instead of first thing in the morning – that’s fine with me. Even though it’s not obvious, I am in charge when I want to me. If I feel strongly about something, I always win – that’s part of the dinamic of our relationships.

    So, I don’t know. I suppose it’s just drilled into you at birth. 😀

    I think the reason why north American women are threatened by the behavior of women like the one quoted above is because they set the bar really high. Rather than improve themselves, these women would rather drag feminine women down to their level instead.

    When it comes to the quality of women, America and Canada are Third World countries.

  111. Marlow says:

    It’s amazing that people consider Gary Thomas a top Christian relationship blogger. It also doesn’t exactly surprise me, either.

  112. Marlow says:

    Deti wrote:

    I will never understand why people don’t get this. Wives, if you deprive your husbands of sex, you are driving a stake into the heart of your marriage and driving him to porn, hookers or cheating. It is the worst kind of marital cruelty and abuse.

    Your comment reminds me of a Q&A I saw recently:

    Question: Since a woman can now legally marry with no intent to ever engage in any sexual activity whatsoever and prosecute her husband for not respecting that, why should I get married? According to one recent article, about 20% of marriages are considered “sexless.” That’s a significant risk.

    Answer: Sexless marriages don’t *just* happen. You’re going to have to be man enough to make sure it doesn’t happen to you. You should get married because it is the right (i.e., virtuous, cf. “vir”) thing to do. Because of that, it is also a eugenic selection filter. People who go around with “Because risk X (which I should be able to control), why should I do (good thing) Y?” actually deserve to be selected out of the gene pool.

  113. feeriker says:

    This is how four year olds perceive the world.

    I’m becoming more convinced with each passing day that four-year-olds in adult bodies now rule the world. All of it. All of its institutions. There ain’t no such thing as “adult leadership” anywhere anymore.

    When it comes to the quality of women, America and Canada are Third World countries

    I’ll kindly ask you not to insult the Third World.

  114. feeriker says:

    Answer: Sexless marriages don’t *just* happen. You’re going to have to be man enough to make sure it doesn’t happen to you. You should get married because it is the right (i.e., virtuous, cf. “vir”) thing to do. Because of that, it is also a eugenic selection filter. People who go around with “Because risk X (which I should be able to control), why should I do (good thing) Y?” actually deserve to be selected out of the gene pool.

    There you have it, guys. That pretty much sums up what all corners of society today think of you, from the gutter to the sactuary.

    I really can’t blame any man today, no matter how hard he tries to live a Christian life, from flipping the bird at the world, turning his back, and just going ghost.

  115. CSI says:

    There you have it, guys. That pretty much sums up what all corners of society today think of you, from the gutter to the sactuary.
    Which is basically that anything wrong in a marriage is always the man’s fault. Always.

  116. stickdude90 says:

    Sexless marriages don’t *just* happen. You’re going to have to be man enough to make sure it doesn’t happen to you.

    And get prosecuted for marital rape??

  117. ray says:

    Gary ain’t got no hair.

    Thinking the way he does, I guess nothing wants to grow on top of his thick cucky head. Sells out the brethren, and calls it Jesus.

  118. feeriker says:

    ary ain’t got no hair.

    Thinking the way he does, I guess nothing wants to grow on top of his thick cucky head.

    No hair has time to grow there, given all the constant good-little-boy pats he gets there from women and white knight manginas.

  119. ray says:

    feeriker —

    Well I did say I was guessing. But I do believe your head-pat deduction has greater merit. Kinda like weeds scraped from a tarmac?

    People here are doing Gary a big favor, and whether he appreciates it or nor, I do. No less than an eternal lifeline offered, and I don’t see anybody else (hello? christians’?) taking an interest in his eternity. Because the King is ‘on the way’ and He won’t be amused by folks that destroy fatherhood. Doing it in His name . . . good luck.

    Gary and his fellow-travelers have been warned, in love, if bluntly.

  120. Dave says:

    I really can’t blame any man today, no matter how hard he tries to live a Christian life, from flipping the bird at the world, turning his back, and just going ghost.

    The problem is, even if the Christian says he has nothing to do with the filth of today’s world, it does not mean that the world will leave him alone, and let him be.
    Case in point: the Christian bakers who refused to participate in a homosexual marriage were sued, and bankrupted by the courts.
    Another case: The Little Sisters of the Poor are a Catholic Nun group who provide assistance to the neediest in society; they never hurt anyone. Yet, Obama tried to force them to provide contraception contrary to their religious beliefs.

    The Church must fight back. I believe that a long term strategy for the Church is to capture leadership in society. Christians should run for office in increasing numbers; they should participate even more forcefully, and seek to become presidents, governors, and law makers. One of the worst mistakes Christians can make is to become passive, and “have nothing to do” with our world.
    We all saw how much damage a dedicated president could do to the country within a mere 8 years, even without the help of Congress.

  121. bdash 77 says:

    this is the future of Christian men
    to help and assist their Godly wives take on the world like Adam was commanded
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/shes-a-medal-favorite-her-husband-is-an-alternate-together-theyre-off-to-the-olympics/2018/01/29/310d5216-0524-11e8-b48c-b07fea957bd5_story.html?utm_term=.40763b3799c2

    Gary Thomas’s advice should not be surprising

  122. RICanuck says:

    @feeriker

    Your comment of February 9, 2018 at 3:51 pm, should be regularly copied and pasted into the blogs of Rod Dreher and the other Christian pearl clutchers, whenever they go into one of their anti-porn-sick-men rants.

  123. Bee says:

    bdash 77,

    “this is the future of Christian men to help and assist their Godly wives take on the world like Adam was commanded”

    That is the model, the man becomes the woman’s helpmeet. Whenever you observe a marriage, first question, “Who is the helpmeet”?

    The wife is 33 and it sure does not sound like they have any kids. She wants to compete another 4 years, does not seem she is even thinking of having kids anytime soon.

  124. earl says:

    ‘I really can’t blame any man today, no matter how hard he tries to live a Christian life, from flipping the bird at the world, turning his back, and just going ghost.’

    It’s not really going ghost…it’s worshiping the true God…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not worshiping the churchian god…women.

  125. I used to get angry (like really angry) at young men who tended to “opt out” and live in the basement. It just drove me crazy to see so many men deciding not to pursue a career, pursue life, or pursue women. I felt like these guys were cheating their advantages. It made me angry.

    I don’t get angry with them anymore. Red pill made me aware and now, I don’t blame them. I think maybe most of these guys who are “opting out” took red pills long before I did even if they aren’t even aware of it.

  126. “God has this amazing plan for your life”

    Is the root of all our problems in modern American Protestantism today. Even churches who *claim* they are not *prosperity gospel* actually are when they proclaim the above line as a way to witness to people and buck-up the flock.

    I even hear it in my church, more than I should. I mean, when all the Disciples were martyed, exiled, and died for His sake……….this was God’s “amazing plan for their life”???

    I hear at other churches I attend for other ministry between the awful praise songs “Come on church, give up for Jesus, we’re standing on His promises, and we can have all things through Him!” (crowd cheers) and I’m wondering to myself “and His promises are??????”

    I have never heard Jesus *promise* anything except the Holy Ghost. In the KJV of the Word, Christ mostly state the words “I tell you the truth” not “I promise you……”

    The “truth” hurts in most cases when it comes to our lives. Every man in this forum has had a “truth” hit them and they realized they at one time fell for a lie, lived a lie or was making a lie into a truth. Repentance is a painful…but such a beautiful thing. That is a gift.

    The “Doctrine of Happiness” that is being taught in most American churches today doesn’t prepare any man or woman for eternity, or the challenges they will face in this world.

    The founder of the Salvation Army, William Booth was a man of many faults……was not perfect…..with that said……in 1899 he said to the staid “London Times” that in the coming century Christianity would face its test, and more than likely…..it would fail…….

    “I consider that the chief dangers which confront the coming century of the Christian faith will be …. religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God and heaven without hell.”

    William Booth, 1899

    How true. So true. So sad. In my own walk, and I have not been in Christ as long as many of you have……………but I will say a diligence to prayer, reading the Word in the KJ version BECAUSE it makes me SLOW DOWN and ponder, and THINK (it’s also beautifully written). Repentance…..striving to perfection, humility and fear towards God.

    We have itchy ears today……everything is offensive, an outrage, abusive, not fair………..just give me the Kingdom…..and God not in it or a God who is gonna “do what I think is right”

    We’ll do no such thing at judgment!

  127. @innocentbystanderboston

    I attend my Holiness Meetings on Wednesday (I work on Sundays, and the Wednesday services actually have a more serious crowd than the gladhanding Sunday service). I help when I am asked. I have a solid gift for working with young boys……after that was stripped from me “because I was too strict / a legalist / didn’t take counsel from the women in the Corps” (who were frankly jealous that I had the largest ministry IN our Corps) I do what I can, help but I stay clear of ther “broad street” of being popular or trying to get people to like me in church. Chruch ladies and loose tongues are never addressed btw, the pastors are actually afraid of them. I am connected, and I am viewed in my own Corps as an “odd duck”

    I skateboard. I repair vintage stereo equipment. Collect vinyl. Love postwar design. I stay sober. I don’t date. I don’t flirt. Yeah, I play video games………on my laptop……..I hike, I stay fit and trim…..but not a workout guy, or anging jock. I am well read, and I like a variety of topics. I don’t live in a basement……but my flat is on the ground floor.

    I have been told that I am “sinning” because I am not utilizing “my gifts” yet when I do, I just face criticism from the infamous “they” in the church.

  128. PokeSalad says:

    ”When the pastor asked the husband about it, he said “yeah, because she came at me with a kitchen knife!”

    This sounds like a crime of attempted murder.

    In this world, that’s a “holy tantrum.”

  129. PokeSalad says:

    Feminists demand for God to be fired.

    There’s some $$$ waiting for a RedPill author to write a Bonfire of the Vanities type novel about that time God was brought before the HR Panel for “problematic patterns of misogynistic behavior.”

  130. earl says:

    I think maybe most of these guys who are “opting out” took red pills long before I did even if they aren’t even aware of it.

    They probably weren’t aware…or if they were it’s because they saw what their mothers did to their fathers.

    The government has too much control in marriage…or more accurately, divorce. That’s why I keep saying I don’t fear any woman or wife…I fear the white knights and their unjust use of state power.

  131. Hose_B says:

    @Anonymous Reader
    If a woman wants the benefit and love of a good man, let her earn it, and re-earn it, and let her know it can be lost.

    Funny how feminine respect must be earned and then constantly re-earned, but masculine love is supposed to be a constant, like sunshine or an electrical utility.

    It’s the “what have you done for me lately”. We tend to treat Jesus the same. Yeah, you died for me, but what have you done for me lately. If Pastors are pushing it, I wonder if they would make thei same connection. Is it Jesus’ eternal requirement to continually “earn” us, or is it our job to seek him?

  132. We really need a movie. Not Cassie Jaye’s Red Pill movie. We need a movie showing a great looking alpha male succeeding in life, accomplishing much professionally, very happy, serving God, serving Christ, staying sober, non-violent, with money in the bank. We need a movie showing this guy so very successful and yet…. no wife. None. And we need someone (his pastor) putting him on the spot and asking him why, oh why, has he never been married? And he needs to respond very clearly and spot-on “….well I would marry, but never in my entire life have I ever met my helpmeet.” And just leave it at that. I think I will write a script for a movie that will never be made.

    This scene….

    …this MGTOW scene is frightening on so many levels. George Clooney doesn’t really make a good example for the MGTOW movement anymore now that he is married. I am kind of surprised he didn’t take his own life advise in his own movie.

  133. I have so many blue pill guys ask me (in a smart ass kind of way) so what exactly is a “helpmeet?” They are so completely brainwashed and simmering in feminist imperative, the whole concept of what it is, is completely foreign to them. I can show them this so they see what a helpmeet is NOT!

  134. Anon says:

    RICanuck,

    Your comment of February 9, 2018 at 3:51 pm, should be regularly copied and pasted into the blogs of Rod Dreher and the other Christian pearl clutchers, whenever they go into one of their anti-porn-sick-men rants.

    Rod Dreher is a cartoonish cuckservative who has been directly destroyed by the androsphere many times. Search Heartiste’s archives for more.

  135. The comments following Thomas’ blog post provided enough LIFT to get a dumpster filled with sloshing Cesium off the ground with the nimbleness of a dime store balsa wood glider. Woman after woman proclaim their gratitude for this blessed man who has validated their abuse stories, no matter what. . Boxes are checked, each one a point of conventional wisdom among evangelical feminists. For instance, a man deigned speak up about his wife’s lack of sexual interest.
    The reaction? To tell him to find out if she had been molested and has the memory buried. Why after all, the woman declared, she herself had awoken at 36 to the horrible fact that she was molested as a child. Left unsaid was , I am certain, that the woman responding had her repressed molestation memory restored coincident with her being fed up with having sex with her husband.

    When the incentive to claim an abuse incident in the past ranges from cash and prizes from divorce or other non marital civil litigation to (this one seemingly irresistible) finally being declared In-Group on abuse or sexual assault, and a hashtag to boot, when that siren song can even result in her bringing actual sirens to her home to buttress her cred, and when as pathetic a resistance as it is, the last place ANY resistance is even feigned, the church, is packed with List chasers like Thomas, well crap, men need our own #metoo representing how abuse-the accusation-has impacted us as well.

  136. #1. I have learned to “hate” my husband and family- this means that I do not put them first in my life or my heart. When they demand things of me that would cause me to disobey my Lord, I say NO. God loves me so much that He is jealous for me and will not allow anyone to usurp His place in my life. When my husband acts as though he is a god to be served (idolatry), I reject this for worship of the true God. Yes, I incur much *more* abuse because of this, but God has protected me every time.

    Abigail (not her real name, she adds) left a long comment about Thomas’ post on Jan 3 at 10:56.
    What I’ve pasted above captures the gist without fussing through the whole comment. This is very bad, worse even than the rest of the me too gals. I’ve seen this play out in real time in extended family marriages. Where the women plugs Jesus into the hierarchy of her earthly family and then chooses what her heart tells her to choose, and we all know Jesus is her heart and therefore she is so spiritual and obedient. To her fickle emotional maelstrom that most women have hovering around them and for which they are warned of the hearts deceit.

  137. Nick Mgtow says:

    Dear Dalrock. Thanks for giving credit when it’s due. Nick Mgtow.
    Anyway; today here is another topic of girl power topic.

    “12 Stunning Photos That Prove There’s No Such Thing As ‘Men’s Work.'”

    That’s the headline of the Huffington Post story touting photographer Chris Crisman’s “Women’s Work,” a collection of photos of female butchers, fishermen–oops, I meant “fisherpeople”–taxidermists, and so forth. All occupations where men predominate.

    Crisman had a mission:

    The one thing Crisman hopes young people, but women especially, take away from this series? “Gender should not determine professional opportunities,” he told HuffPost.

    http://www.iwf.org/blog/2802476/How-to-Sell-%22Men's-Work%22-to-Women

  138. Nick Mgtow says:

    Dear Dalrock X2, here was a good rest day for me. I’d like to share a second article you might like: a man telling feminists who rode the carousel, to be accountable for their own inflicted misery after years of carousel.
    I can’t remember the use of the letters you had for Women H… O…. R…. E….S or S L U T So, but I liked it.
    Best regards.

    https://squawker.org/analysis/sadfeminists/

  139. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    Search on #ChurchToo it is already out there.

    You weren’t kidding. The most cursory search shows that men like Gary Thomas are not only fighting the good fight for women everywhere, but have drastically under-reported the extent of horrific abuse perpetrated by not only husbands, but church leaders and even rank and file church going men married or not.

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/churchtoo-women-share-stories-of-rape-sexual-abuse-leaving-church-207785/

    My powers of observation must be only in my own mind. In decades of attending churches both Protestant and Catholic, I’ve yet to meet the man that seemed anywhere near audacious enough to perpetrate a #churchtoo. I’ve barely met one that dare stand up for himself at all when it comes to dealing with church ladies. Yet I investigate per your suggestion and discover that churches actually are overloaded with abusive men that shame women for being women.

    It’s confusing out there.

  140. @empathologism:

    Your insight in the “Lift” has been far more useful than people realize, though it’s mostly lost the name in other discourse. Lift Chasing providing an amazingly useful objective desire that you find in most Pastors. It allows a very good explanation & incentive alignment around the way Pastors operate, and, for that, you always deserve solid regard.

  141. Frank K says:

    Catholics have been complaining for decades about how thoroughly converged so-called “Catholic Universities” are (e.g., Georgetown, Notre Dame, etc.)

    There are precious few left. Here is a list. Notice that the big name schools like Notre Dame are not on it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Newman_Guide_to_Choosing_a_Catholic_College

  142. BillyS says:

    Jeff,

    A lot of these women probably rejected a lot of nice guys on their path to marrying a bad boy.

    Way back at the start, but he was not necessarily a bad boy. I was a horrible guy my wife had to stay away from or I would “return to my old ways” according to my pastor’s wife (at the time) who I had gotten my wife to call in a last minute attempt to stop the divorce. She was more concerned with me being someone I was not than faithful marriage.

    And the pastor later had the gall to tell me I had to prove myself to his wife over time, to prove the allegations were false.

    He kicked me out a while later because I kept challenging his inaction and the active negative actions of many women in the church. It was better for me to “find another place to worship” than to admit some things were handled wrong.

  143. BillyS says:

    And no, I did not do any of the things I am accused of. I almost wish I was a bad guy, because I could then change and seek out the results of that change. Instead I am cast aside because my exwife wanted to be single again.

  144. BillyS says:

    OKRickety,

    I used to really enjoy Kevin Lehman, along with Focus on the Family (when Dobson was still there) for that matter.

    Many things sounded good, but ended up just being things that tickled itching ears.

    I think Lehman really believes what he said, but unfortunately has his head up his rear. I would suspect a lot of believing what women told him rather than seeing what they really do.

    ====

    On the sexless marriage issue, just having sex is not enough either. Starfish sex is perhaps as bad as no sex, especially with a woman who is bitchy at other times.

  145. earl says:

    On the sexless marriage issue, just having sex is not enough either. Starfish sex is perhaps as bad as no sex, especially with a woman who is bitchy at other times.

    Both situations show she’s not being a good helpmate.

  146. bdash 77 says:

    @Bee
    so this is the future for men?
    Why do Godly men want to be helpmeets- is it easier?

    Christians are actively pushing this role reversal
    so many Pastors praise Sarah Huckabee Sanders as a Christian in the Whitehouse

    what Christian woman is the head of her house hold with a house husband and claims to be submitting to God in all things?

    my pastor also told me that there was nothing wrong with men staying at home to support a wife’s career

  147. mrteebs says:

    You’ve got to wonder about someone who gives a forum to his 21-year old daughter so she can parrot back her university reprogramming that now recognizes “rape culture” where she previously didn’t see it. Revisionist history that allows he to reinterprets her church camp / youth group experiences as borderline abusive and shaming – all because she had to wear a long t-shirt over her swimsuit. And the BOYS didn’t have to!

    http://www.garythomas.com/my-daughter-talks-to-her-dad-about-modesty/

    I predict she’ll next insist on therapy at daddy’s expense to get over the trauma.

  148. feeriker says:

    I predict she’ll next insist on therapy at daddy’s expense to get over the trauma.

    Where she’ll suddenly “discover”/”remember” that Daddy was one of her abusers and go on a crusade to destroy him.

  149. Novaseeker says:

    Thomas is an obvious closeted faggot. That’s the most obvious take-away from his consistently non-heterosexual male perspectives, Christian or not.

  150. Paul says:

    In the same article Thomas concludes with:
    whenever Paul addressed relations, he spoke to the men first. He doesn’t tell wives to submit to their husbands until he tells husbands to become sacrificial living martyrs for their wives.

    Well, what do you know…

    Eph 5
    22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
    24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

    The apostle Paul FIRST tells wives to submit twice, BEFORE he tells husbands to love their wives. Oh, and of course the “sacrificial living martyrs for their wives” is a gross distortion of v.25. Thomas is trying to mold husbands into continuously martyring themselves for their wives’ whims.

  151. bdash 77 says:

    all the young women in conservative churches are like his daughter…
    full of feminism
    in the article he says the bible addresses men first
    actually it does not
    it says wives submit to your husbands before talking about husbands….

  152. Spike says:

    Scott says:
    February 9, 2018 at 9:16 pm
    “Those of us who have been through the “everything I never like about him was retroactively abuse” ringer and found ourselves scratching our heads in bewilderment after a fairly normal marriage with fairly common problems was detonated to the approving golf-clap of the entire local church will always have trouble taking these kinds of complaints seriously”.

    I and many here know this one cuts close to the bone for you, Scott.
    One if the things that strikes me so much about how “abusive” men are is how little they are actually followed up with criminal charges.
    Whenever a woman colleague or acquaintance tells me she “has been trapped in an abusive relationship’, I always say, “That’s terrible. Is he behind bars now”? or something to that effect. So far, all I’ve ever received after my answer is a puzzled, strange look, with “No! Of course not!”
    So what we have is criminal abuse that is not penalised through the appropriate channels of the law.
    A criminal act not prosecuted through the justice system is by definition not a criminal act because of the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
    Thus, he’s abusive, but not abusive enough to press charges and throw him into prison, despite a legal system that is effectively saying to women, “THROW HIM OUR WAY! WE’LL SHOW HIM!”
    Thus, abuse that is not criminal abuse is not abuse. It’s simply her fig leaf to get out of her commitments on the high moral ground.

  153. feministhater says:

    My powers of observation must be only in my own mind. In decades of attending churches both Protestant and Catholic, I’ve yet to meet the man that seemed anywhere near audacious enough to perpetrate a #churchtoo. I’ve barely met one that dare stand up for himself at all when it comes to dealing with church ladies. Yet I investigate per your suggestion and discover that churches actually are overloaded with abusive men that shame women for being women.

    It’s confusing out there.

    Why do you guys even bother with these bitches anymore? Just tell them to F off. They bitch about everything, give them something to really bitch about – except you won’t have to hear them bitch about it at all! That’s the beauty of MGTOW.

    This is hilarious, women just cannot stop, even when the damage is going to be monumental, they just keep chipping away at male good will towards the female. Who cares what they think? They’re stupid, vapid, false accusers and don’t help you anyway as that’s abusive. I love it! This #metoo campaign is a gift, let the churchian whores use their #metoo cards as well, then men will finally get the message loud and clear, at least those men who were still too dim to get it earlier.

    MGTOW is giving women EXACTLY what they say they want.

  154. Will S. says:

    Reblogged this on Patriactionary.

  155. Swanny River says:

    FH,
    It might be slightly worse than you starkly put it. I think the abuse many complain about is the failure of men to become the complete sacrificial slave Thomas wants us to be. They want to be the servant leader, us a sacrifice to the power lust. But they want power without responsibility, so they need men, and they want the status of marriage, so they need husbands for that also, which of course leaves them in a miserable position.

  156. earl says:

    all because she had to wear a long t-shirt over her swimsuit. And the BOYS didn’t have to!

    She does realize men and women have different torsos, right? Biology will still trump egalitarian nonsense.

  157. feeriker says:

    In the same article Thomas concludes with:
    whenever Paul addressed relations, he spoke to the men first. He doesn’t tell wives to submit to their husbands until he tells husbands to become sacrificial living martyrs for their wives.

    Well, what do you know…

    Eph 5
    22 …

    Cuckservative faggot frauds like Thomas are so used to an audience consisting of nothing but gullible biblical ignoramuses that eventually they completely stop caring about making such utterly moronic, easily refutable statements.

  158. mrteebs says:

    How do you comment to Thomas’s blog?

    1) Do you ever read your Bible? Do your followers? Eph 5:25 is THE go-to text for the snowflake brigade and you couldn’t even take 30 seconds to validate your (false) assertion that Paul always addresses men first? How about Colossians 3? Nope. There again, women addressed (v. 18) before men (v. 19). How about Peter? No again. He spends 6 versus addressing wives first ( I Pet 3:1-6) before addressing husbands in verse 7.

    2) Do you ever single out women for bad behavior? What percentage of those now wailing and gnashing their teeth expressly disobeyed 2 Cor 6:14 and are now reaping what they sowed?

    3) Do you regularly make a habit of ignoring Prov 18:17?

  159. Was reading something in “Time” magazine a few weeks back……it stated something that “registered nurses (RN) in the USA have the highest trust value from people. Some statistic…eight out of ten would ‘trust’ a nurse for honest feedback about their health / condition / treatment and situation regarding health matters.

    Yeah, the press, politicians scored at the bottom of the rung. Lawyers too. This crowd always is in the lower rungs of trustworthiness

    But sadest of all were American Pastors and Priests. They were on the bottom end as well concerning ‘trustworthiness’ and really telling was that in 1970 they were at the top of the list of “being honest and trustworthy” or “getting a straight answer”

    Now………the American clergy will tell us “that’s the perception, the reality is God is doing amazing work in MY church” or “it’s a leftist conspircy” or “satan is twisting the facts”

    I really don’t trust clergy either………..and that is their own faut. Not satan. Not the ‘liberal press’ and not ‘the culture we live in today’

  160. Boxer says:

    Jason: Do you have a link to that article? It sounds really interesting.

  161. I was reading it ‘hard copy’ in the dentist office…………..give me a few to find it. Will send it to you

  162. Boxer says:

    I found one on Forbes, but clergy were in the top half, around judges. I would enjoy seeing them at the bottom, but they aren’t all the types parodied on Dalrock, so it would be surprising.

  163. Jim says:

    She does realize men and women have different torsos, right?

    Biology is sexist, remember?

    Geez these PC parasites are idiots!

  164. Paul says:

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/224639/nurses-keep-healthy-lead-honest-ethical-profession.aspx?g_source=position4&g_medium=related&g_campaign=tiles

    Gallup has nurses on top, clergy halfway. It also shows historical development. From mid-70’s 67% trusted for clergy, almost continuously downward to 42% now. Although it is probably fair to say that in general the public has become less Christian, hence less sympathetic to clergy. I would like to see some more background to that.

  165. Nursing: meh.

    I think a lot of this (from a trust standpoint) is very easy to explain. Nursing is increasingly a very well formed job. Nursing is almost robotic in its automation. Nurses used to have to make some decisions, some life and death decisions. And those decisions were sometimes incorrect ones. That may have hurt their trust in the eye of the public. Now, they make virtually no decisions AND everything they do is so completely well audited. This brings about trust.

    Consider, every single action a nurse takes in a hospital in patient care has a well formed policy and procedure for almost every single possible disease or acute ailment. So their actions are akin to following a very well designed flow chart. It wasn’t always like that. Thank information technology for that one. Another thing that has changed is so much technology (and money) that are thrown at diagnostics. A nurse can manage 10 different beds staring at a screen at her nursing station. Just look at the monitor, it does all their vitals for them. That builds trust in the absence of human error. And lastly, registered nurses and BSNs are lawfully permitted to administer drugs. But every single drug they administer is ONLY on a doctor’s order AND that drug is scanned by “barcode” by a light pen, and a record of that drug and the time it was administered is recorded in a SQL database somewhere at that hospital or on a distant mainframe. The system is “expecting” certain drugs based on the doctor’s authority. The system will scream at her if the barcode says she grabbed the wrong drug. No mistakes are made. Once again, trust is established in the absence of human error.

    If you are really good at following authority and instructions, you aren’t bothered by the sight of blood or shit, then nursing is the ideal profession for you. It pays excellent (even right out of college), it is very rewarding (emotionally) as it feels good to help people and save their lives, AND the public trusts and admires you. Nursing is an amazing profession. But almost all of these changes were brought about by people who are much-MUCH smarter than the nurses (and even the doctors) who do the work. It was the elevated IQ of the computer scientists who came up with the systems and applications that make their jobs so much easier and more professional.

  166. My mother was a RN, and an OR Nurse in the last ten years of her career. We have to import nurses from the Pillipines and India here in California nowbecause americans in nursing after four / five years of college now can’t pass the “board exams”. I, in general would trust a RN over a licensed vocational nurse (LVN) or even a specialist in some cases.

    I don’t take IQ seriously. Everyone has a billion level IQ today, and I worked with an engineer at IBM who was soooooo smart….lots of patents…….worked with Dr. Amdahl in the 1970’s……yet…..yet had to be picked up and dropped off at an airport because he could not read or comprehend a timetable for airline arrival and departure times. That’s how smart he was.

    In my hometown there was an old man who was a small dairy farmer. Was a translator in World War II, spoke seven languages fluently and could read and write them too, but was “just a farmer” on a struggling plot of land in harsh northern New York State. The world considered him just a “dumb old farmer”

    With IQ we assume that someone who has a high one (which seems to be everyone today) that they of course are some sort of “leader” and just because they are good at one thing; they are
    experts at everything and should be taken seriously.

    Anyone with an “average” IQ (myself included here) obvioulsy didn’t win the eugenics game and has to be a janitor, a waiter, a cashier and serve all the amazing people who are “just more intelligent than they are”

    IQ today has turned into a “who can pee the farthest with an erection” contest. I don’t put much stock in it and I have met a gazillion geniuses today who have not stopped the world. All these intelligent people also have given us PC culture, the insane money game, debt, debt, more debt and more debt, have talked down to me for decades for not being “intelligent” like them

    It’s a peeing contest. Met plenty of average IQ folks who have more common sense and ingenuity than many of these geniuses I am surrounded by

  167. Disillusioned says:

    I just finished dating a so called woman Christian. She asked me why is it all her decisions in life have been wrong and was hoping God would email her what He wanted her to do. I mentioned that He already has and it is called The Bible. I shouldve added that just like George Constanza did in an episode of Seinfeld, she should do the opposite if what she would normally do. But this would mean giving up on all her feminist ideas. One thing that she said which almost made me laugh was that she or women in general dont need a man to direct her and lead her. This was said by a woman who acknowledges making all the wrong decisions. I need to find a Russian woman and not a western one.

  168. AT IBM we had the “ideas” program. You submit an idea, and it may get studied….if implemented you would get a check, recognition and a handshake.

    Well…….while I was writing one of my bring manuals……..all the line workers and engineers were freaking out over their “failure rate” of the new MR slider for our new HDA drives (this was 1997)

    I watched the process for a few days while I was snapping photos for the manual I was writing……and I noticed. They were washing the sliders, then cleaning them by hand with swabs. I submitted the “idea” that they just switch the process on the line. They clean them by hand with swabs, THEN wash them. It was crazy enough to work. It did. I was paid almost 5K for that solution.

    I also submitted an “idea” on our review process for our manuals in final editing. My process was adopted division wide. Was paid another 10K for that.

    Not bad for for a guy with some “avaerage” IQ…..hence I don’t take to much stock in it. A genius didn’t create DOS, nor was Henry Ford above average in his IQ. Edison was pragmatic, and some of the best writers just “wrote what they knew”

    IQ can be a basis….but an “end all be all” of worth I’ll never buy

  169. earl says:

    I just finished dating a so called woman Christian. She asked me why is it all her decisions in life have been wrong and was hoping God would email her what He wanted her to do. I mentioned that He already has and it is called The Bible. I shouldve added that just like George Constanza did in an episode of Seinfeld, she should do the opposite if what she would normally do. But this would mean giving up on all her feminist ideas. One thing that she said which almost made me laugh was that she or women in general dont need a man to direct her and lead her. This was said by a woman who acknowledges making all the wrong decisions.

    Cause and effect escapes a woman’s frame of thought again. Things are going wrong but being obedient to anybody (especially a man who has legit authority over them) isn’t going to be their solution.

    Being disobedient to God and His commands is going down the wrong path…it’s not a well kept secret…it’s right there starting with the fall of man.

  170. Jason, I am not the least bit interested in discussing the genetic lottery that is intelligence quotient. I was only interested in discussing why nurses are so trusted. I agree that they are. And I have explained why.

  171. Yeah….they are trusted because of people of “much higher intelligence”

  172. Men who come to church only to have to listen to these effeminate Garys publicly berate them for the complaints of their wives would be wise to stand up, turn around and walk out. The Christian church has become a temple to feminism.

    Also, Christian advocates arguing in favor of marriage to modern day American women really do have all of their work still ahead of them.

  173. earl says:

    Might as well replace the Garys with lesbian clergy…there’s really no difference anymore since neither preaches anything close to Christian.

  174. Jon Patch says:

    A healthy married woman actually loves being treated as a sexual plaything. What a sissy this dude is

  175. Hey, some of the blog posts by Gary Thomas over the last several years are freaking hilarious given current context and the field of play, namely feminism dominating American church doctrine, indignant neovirgins sitting in every pew, open hypergamy, sexlessness, divorce, and the precipitous decline of marriage:

    https://saddleback.com/event/30094512497/all-singles-event-the-sacred-search

    http://www.garythomas.com/singles-just-because-theyre-smiling-that-doesnt-mean-its-not-an-assault/

    http://www.garythomas.com/weddingring/

    http://www.garythomas.com/50shades/

    http://www.garythomas.com/sexisntoptional/

  176. My wife is a BSN/RN as is my eldest son.
    I’m going to suggest a reason for the perceived trustworthiness of nurses that would inform a poll such as that. It dovetails with local content perfectly. Nurses would be selected in a multiple choice survey about trustworthiness because respondents naturally assign female gender to the majority of nurses. It is a valid gender assignment as the respondent conjures the image of a nurse, they conjure the image of an average looking over 40 woman. Some 10% of BSN/RNs are male, maybe slightly more. I base that on the situation that exists presently where I live. My wife attended college in middle age and graduated BSN at 50. Therefore my son was there at the same time, a couple of semesters behind her. The school cherished the male students, wanting to get that number up.

    Nurses, as perceived, are full on altruists. Some likely are. But there is a good bit of addiction to empathy that drives female nurses. I know this well, first hand. My son now hates the job. When asked why he says 1.)He hates working around mostly women, and 2.) He hates dealing with the patients. The later is predictable because males do not get revved up about empathy, so they do not have empathogasms. Where some large percentage of women are, unbeknownst to them, completely controlled by desire to experience empathy. That does seem a motive for altruism until you follow on with the fact that its not the actual shared feeling and the joy of helping, its the feelings of how wonderfully selfless and compassionate they get to secretly bask in.

  177. Scott says:

    Empath-

    Yep. This is why there is a huge amount of meme content on FB about how totally awesome, and selfless, and thankless and wonderful nurses are. Share and like if you agree!

    There are no memes like that for plumbers, whose job it is to whisk shit out of your house, making it possible to live a sanitary, disease free lifestyle.

  178. Joe says:

    Just today in Church, my pastor (married and in his late 30’s) started off his sermon seies in forgivness with “stupid things that men say”. He said “I’ll pick on the men. Don’t want to get on the ladies bad side”. He then proceeded to humiliate, disparage and disrespect men. Fortunatly, my wife (who DOES respect me) was helping out in the childrens area, and was not subjected to this.
    After 3 or 4 of these “stupid things”, I walked out. I went back in after 5 minutes when I figured he was done. To his credit, the rest of the sermon was very good. But the damage was done.

    I noticed this trype of thing start around 30 years ago. Women going on a retreat? Pastor would joke about how the kids were going to starve and clothes would go unwashed etc etc. That’s how it started.

    I am so sick of this kind of talk. Pissed, really. Is it any wonder that so many women disrespect men when they hear it from the pastor?

  179. Spike says:

    seventiesjason: My dad left school at 13, but could build anything from a cabinet to a skyscraper. He downplayed the importance of education but greatly prized pragmatic intelligence.
    I would agree completely that IQ, and university marks in general, have become a glorified pissing contest. They meant something when education was free and faculties had power. Now with ”user pays” the student is effectively in charge.
    I have a professor friend in a medical school. She very cynically says that marks have gone up, the the students still ask the same stupid questions. Thank you cultural marxism.
    It is interesting how this plays out internationally. The average German worker (and I’ll say, man, because German women are among the worst in the world) isn’t that smart. Nor is the average Japanese worker. The point is that collectively they are and they make awesome products in a cost effective way.
    Contrast this to Australia: here we are a nation of absolute geniuses*. We know how to do things better than ANYONE. We are experts on medicine, communications, manufacturing, technology – you name it. And we build and export……zero.
    I would rather be a smart country full of dumb people than a Third World country full of geniuses any day.

    *This means we can criticize how everyone else is doing their jobs, but we get angry when someone criticizes ours.

  180. Okay….okay…….I made a comment this morning about nurses being “trustworthy”

    and then it becomes about “actually the smarter people with the higher IQ are responsible for this trust” and then “trustworthiness dovetails with the female gender” (well so are teachers, and everybody except other teachers hates them)

    ………….suddenly now plumbers allow people to live a disease free life……….which may be true……….still waiting to meet and work with an HONEST plumber. When my apratment complex I work at calls for emergency service and the plumber finds out its run by The Salvation Army……the price goes up 1000%

    Nursing is a pretty demanding job, and one that still holds a modicum of respect….and from the polls…………trustworthiness.

    It’s getting to the point on here that I could say “the sky is blue” and someone on here would write a treatease or snarky remark about how its “really orange”

  181. IQ matters quite a lot, but less for the reasons people want to think it does. (Normally because it tends to be used as some sort of objective cudgel these days.) If you’re an American, non-Hispanic White Male, your ability to do Visual-Spatial reasoning is somewhere above 90% of the rest of the World. And if you’re over 40, you’re used to a world that operated at quite a lot higher level than it is now.

    If you’re a Western Christian, do understand that complaining about IQ issues is the millionaire complaining about billionaires. You come from historically intelligent populations because of issues of geography, race and centuries of Christian Faith. The Modern World requires Christian Morality, or at least a version of it, and everything gets worse the further one gets from that morality. (Though do, also, realize that the West came about very much by killing off the people that couldn’t accept living by basic Christian rules. You are the descendants of those that could at least Talk the Talk.)

    Japan has either the world’s first or second highest average IQ, with Germany not too far behind it. What makes power house industrial production is a class of World-class Engineers and Production Managers. Australia has a lot of space, not a lot of people, and it’s far more economically viable to export raw materials given the first two realities.

    To put it in more of a context, quite a lot of the world can be called “Dumbf***astan” because it’s populated by Dumbf***astanis. They need Christ as much as the wayward Westerner, but their cultures & peoples will be unable to produce an economy on the level of 1750s New England for at least a century or two after they convert. If they live in a Tropical Climate, it’s unlikely they’ll ever be able to do that. Adapted neuro-physiology will get in the way, but they still need Christ and can still live as Christians.

  182. Spike I get you. My father quit school at 16 to help on the family farm when his mom died in the summer of 1952. He was only 16. Gets into the USAF, gets his GED and slowly becomes a carpenter, works his way through an actual apprenticeship and journeyman school….the guy was well read…..talented and a quiet man…..I finally learned to admire him and respect him long after my college years and I was into my thirties.

    …….but he was “just a carpenter and joiner” raised his family and stayed married to my mother…..so you know…….he obviously was stupid 😉

  183. Looking glass….you lost me after the second sentence

  184. Anon says:

    IBB,

    I used to get angry (like really angry) at young men who tended to “opt out” and live in the basement.

    It is good you got out of it. A lot of current cuckservatives are still like that. They similarly have no capacity to object to any life choices a woman makes, no matter how sordid.

    Remember that cuckservatives are still driven by greed, not fear. They don’t want slaves off of the plantation.

  185. Anon, I wasn’t angry with them because I was greedy. I was angry at them for being lazy. I am not angry anymore.

    But I was odd because I was angry with both young men AND women. I expected selfless, productive behavior from both. Nowadays, I don’t expect anything from anyone. That may be red pill but is that progress?

  186. @seventiesjason:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Spatial_visualization_ability

    Pre-1970, we would simply say, “the American Male is more mentally capable than nearly all of the rest of the planet”. We add more specific terms now to dazzle the idiots that can’t understand they’re stupid with BS, so the ones who actually know something can communicate with each other. Being hyper specific is a “smart guy” trick when dealing with touchy subjects.

    Most of the world isn’t capable of figuring out what you did at IBM, even when given every opportunity. Nor could they handle things like your parents did. This is the reason for all of the PC Buzzwords these days. You may think yourself simple and that IQ doesn’t matter much & you might yourself be rather middle of the road among your peers, but the difference between you and someone that isn’t of European or North-East Asia descent is almost night & day. That’s why they hate you and want you destroyed.

    You’re among the Elite of the World because your forefathers followed God just a little for a good number of centuries. That’s the brutal reality of the matter.

  187. bdash 77 says:

    this is really getting me annoyed
    what is a man to do anymore?

    sex that a woman regrets or feels guilty for is now rape/abuse/harassment?!!

    even married men or divorced men are getting accused by wives

    does the western world not want men?

    I can’t wait for Asia to take over…

  188. Swanny River says:

    How or why would a western woman in a church be obedient to the Lord? First, she is told the opposite of Original Sin applies to her. She is told she is intrinsically civilizing and loving, to the point that her only sin is being a doormat. Then she is educated to believe she can do anything, as long as the oppressive patriarchy is smashed. She believes Men are brutes or homos, and yet she needs one to marry for status and children. The only man above her in her eyes is the pastor, but he is terrified of her and never makes her feel uncomfortable. At this point, how could she see wifely submission as anything but a mistake of the bible or that God is imperfect if he wants wives to submit?
    The pushback I get when I share red pill is that our church’s wives are already pursuing submission. If that is true, then why is the pastor afraid to recognize and acknowledge their success? Why doesn’t he say “well done ladies, the way you put Titus 2 in effect puts Red-pill men to shame?”

  189. I have never seen any of these Harridans in church the way you all have. I think that is because pretty much every church I have ever been involved with is filled with blue haired widows who are just in God’s waiting room. Rarely (when I was single) did I ever see even one woman about my own age. They just weren’t there.

  190. Swanny River says:

    Expanding on my second paragraph. Pastors aren’t only terrified of confronting female rebellion, they are terrified of acknowledging successful submission. That’s crazy to me since one of the two reasons red-pill men are told to shut-up is because we are told it’s not that bad and that there are far many more bad men than the elders tell us about. Fair enough, that implies many good women are around, if so, why aren’t the pastors praising their submissiveness? Gee, a dummy like me might conclude that it is because there aren’t any submissive wives.

  191. Marquess of Cluckbury says:

    “I wasn’t angry with them because I was greedy. I was angry at them for being lazy… I expected selfless, productive behavior from both.”

    You were angry because you felt a stranger owed you something for nothing.

    This mentality used to be considered a sign of “immaturity” in adults. Cause for embarassment and self-reflection.

    Now, anything goes. (Even at advanced age and in the presence of other, former, ostensible, indicators of competence.)

    HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!

    “Nowadays, I don’t expect anything from anyone.”

    That’s good.

    It never ceases to amaze me how westerners take good will for granted.

    It’s like the neotenous retardation you see in domesticated animals.

    Also, nurses are crazy whores. (But I still love them.)

  192. feeriker says:

    Gee, a dummy like me might conclude that it is because there aren’t any submissive wives.

    Among Western Anglosphere women who are not part of separatist religious communities (e.g., the Amish or Fundamentalist Mormons), we know that a half dozen exist because they visit these parts on a semi-regular basis. However, they are so few in number that for statistical purposes your assertion is correct. They do not exist.

  193. BillyS says:

    Eph 5:21 is the end of the section addressing those in church relationships, not marriage ones.

    I can’t recall hearing any preacher get that one right. They always use it to negate Eph 5:22.

  194. BillyS says:

    Joe,

    Things won’t change in churches until large numbers of men in those churches start challenging such things. Too many men today either sit silently or even agree with the idiocy. It is completely unbiblical, but that won’t matter until more men stand for what is Written, not what is preached.

  195. Hmm says:

    Somewhat on-topic: a long article about controlling men through shame:
    https://alastairadversaria.com/2018/02/10/on-men-shame-and-brotherhood/

  196. Mychael says:

    Among Western Anglosphere women who are not part of separatist religious communities (e.g., the Amish or Fundamentalist Mormons), we know that a half dozen exist because they visit these parts on a semi-regular basis. However, they are so few in number that for statistical purposes your assertion is correct. They do not exist.

    I’m not sure what the real number is, but I hope its growing. I am trying, but I am fighting against a lifetime of “grrrrrrrl power” upbringing to be very good at it, at least consistently. Likewise, Scott has to resist his own lifetime of egalitarian, woman can do everything men can do, go with the flow training. Plus there’s the fact that women are so ruthless in their critique of anything outside the herd. I have no stomach for it at all. I understand that men, in general can argue tooth and nail on these blogs and then just move on. But for me, the fights stay inside forever, so I have learned to stay away most of the time.

    On a one to one basis I think I am doing what Scott wants me to do–that is fighting the herd mentality and policing up the women around me if they start to whisper to each other and complain about their husbands. I try really hard to be uplifting and elevating about them. I try to show my daughters that even when I am mad about a decision Scott makes, he has the right to make it.

    You can’t to be confrontational/counter herd though because in the homseschool/piano/ballet/etc world of SAHMs, you have to maintain these friendships to get along. Its pretty stressful.

    Its a mess for all of the reasons discussed in perpetuity around these parts. Only thing any one wife/girl can do is try to quietly resist the most egregious behavior and comments that tear down good men.

  197. Mychael says:

    Whoops. “You can’t be too confrontational” I mean.

  198. Pariah says:

    “Things won’t change in churches until large numbers of men in those churches start challenging such things.”

    I’m guessing alot of men who have the balls to challenge such idiocy give up on even attending church rather than fighting against the tide. It’s been said before that churches are beta factories.

    Speaking of Ephesians 5:21, two weeks ago at the church I go to the pastor used that verse to say that husbands and wives should mutually submit themselves to each other. And this is the most conservative church I’ve been able to find within reasonable driving distance!

    I myself am studying at a Baptist seminary this year and intend to found a red-pilled church in the next few years, God willing. Maybe it will be successful just because of that fact, like filling in a niche market – like selling bottled water in a scorching desert. I wonder what sort of persecution I’m going to receive if I voice some of these unpopular opinions in seminary, though.

  199. Dave says:

    …After 3 or 4 of these “stupid things”, I walked out. I went back in after 5 minutes when I figured he was done. To his credit, the rest of the sermon was very good. But the damage was done….

    I don’t mean to be mean, but I think the men are partially to blame. We don’t often express our disapproval of these demeaning remarks. I think it would have been better to let the pastor know where he erred, even through an anonymous letter if necessary.
    You’ll be surprised that if enough men complain, the pastor will have no other choice but to change his ways. He did not want to get “on the ladies bad side” because the ladies would generally complain. Men can and should complain too. Our collective failures to complain, or our penchant to “protest silently” is the reason why these bullies don’t mind getting “on the men’s bad side”.
    Let’s change that.

  200. Lost Patrol says:

    You can’t to be confrontational/counter herd though because in the homseschool/piano/ballet/etc world of SAHMs, you have to maintain these friendships to get along.

    This is not just for SAHMs nor does it have necessarily to do with friendships. Men are also constrained in this regard if they are in any way beholden to companies/corporations/government/customers for their livelihood or a certification of some kind. You have to know who you are dealing with, what’s on the line, and how far you are willing to push a counter-narrative based on those assessments.

    Pariah names it in the next comment.

    I wonder what sort of persecution I’m going to receive if I voice some of these unpopular opinions in seminary, though.

    And in the next comment another example from Dave.

    I think it would have been better to let the pastor know where he erred, even through an anonymous letter if necessary.

    At this stage of my life and understanding, I personally find a pastor, or any speaker I’ve heard, and directly ask him about his remarks whether they demean men or simply lay all responsibility on them whilst denying them commensurate authority.

    Once upon a time I would have accepted what I was hearing, either to not rock the boat or because I didn’t know any better. Thanks to what I’ve learned at Dalrock I now immediately see when they are doing their own version of avoiding hassles, chasing “The Lift”, or trying to AMOG a group; and I point it out.

    I’m doing it because I genuinely like some of these men, and because for me the stakes are so low. I don’t know how much I would have challenged misandry in the past if I had the information in those days. I might have seen it as too risky in many environments.

    The situation is different for every man, and changes over time.

  201. OKRickety says:

    Paul said:  ‘In the same article Thomas concludes with:
    whenever Paul addressed relations, he spoke to the men first. He doesn’t tell wives to submit to their husbands until he tells husbands to become sacrificial living martyrs for their wives.’

    I hate it when statements are accepted in spite of their obvious falsity. I wonder how many besides Paul  noticed. My primary issue is that almost all will accept Thomas’s statement as truth, rather than verifying it. The end result is that a lie becomes accepted as truth. Correction becomes more difficult.

    The order of addressing the wives’ submission before the husbands’ behavior is repeated by the Apostle Paul on two other occasions, and once by the Apostle Peter. Here are my additions (emphases mine) to Paul‘s refutation of Thomas’s claim:

    [Tit 2:4-5 NASB] “so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
    There is no direction to husbands in this passage.

    [Col 3:18-19 NASB] ‘Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them.
    The wives are addressed before the husbands.

    [1Pe 3:1-2, 7 NASB] “In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. […]You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”
    The wives are addressed before the husbands.

    When someone claims that the Bible says something and it is a lie, why would anyone accept anything else they say to be truth?

  202. Joe says:

    For those wondering… I do plan on talking to the pastor about what he said. I though about creating an email account that isn’t associated with my name, but then I figured that’s the cowards way out.
    So I’ll just talk to him directly next time I see him at Church. I’ll start with a compliment, as like I said, the rest of the sermon was very good. Then I’ll ask him why he thought it necessary to insult, disrespect and demean men to make a point.
    And you’re right. If he did this to women, he’d have an avalanche of angry emails form the women.
    I told my wife about it, and she was pretty disappointed as well, and agreed that if he did this with women he’d be reading a boatload of emails. Then he’d probably apologize the next week.
    I’m reminded of the garden of Eden, when Eve decided to follow what the serpent said. And it’s clear from the text that Adam was standing right there watching, and did nothing.
    IT might be a couple of weeks, but I’ll try to remember to post here what transpires…

  203. OKRickety says:

    Joe,

    ‘Just today in Church, my pastor (married and in his late 30’s) started off his sermon seies in forgivness with “stupid things that men say”.’

    In my opinion, marriage is one of the areas that most needs teaching on forgiveness. How many divorces or dysfunctional marriages are the result of a lack of forgiveness? That is, the “hardness of heart” that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 19:8. You might ask your pastor if this will be part of his series.

  204. Disillusioned says:

    Lets be honest. The reason you find these women complaining about how abusive their husbands are is because they picked the bad boys. Typically these women rode the caroussel, chose the bad boy jerk over nice beta Christian men, decided to go to church to put on a veer of morality and are now complaining of their stupid decision of marrying the dude. The fact is that most of these women are violent themselves at least in a passive agressive way. What they want is a church tell them it is ok to blow off their husband and damn be the kids if they have any. Then they are free to go back to the caroussel and after a few cycles find another bad boy. After a few years repeat the same pattern. I know since I have met so many Christian divorced women.

  205. Novaseeker says:

    Lets be honest. The reason you find these women complaining about how abusive their husbands are is because they picked the bad boys. Typically these women rode the caroussel, chose the bad boy jerk over nice beta Christian men

    Well but both the women and the “nice beta” men are to blame for that. Women actually don’t want to marry “nice beta” men unless they have no other options, and that’s Christian women, too. It’s a woman thing, not a Christian thing. The main reason the bad boys cash in so hard in our culture is that among men other than bad boys, basic masculinity is mostly lacking. You can be masculine and not be a bad boy, but you can’t be a “nice guy” and be masculine. This is something most “nice guy” men don’t understand, and the single men in the churches are overwhelmingly the “nice guy” types, so of course the women are not attracted to them other than as a last resort, and will prefer a more masculine guy who has obvious flaws to an unmasculine nice guy.

    Yes, the women are making flawed decisions. But the fact that there are so many unmasculine “nice guy” men in Christianity these days is actually encouraging women to make the choices they’re making. The pastors are wrong to say that everything is men’s fault, as if women have no agency. That’s absolutely absurd. It’s equally wrong, though, to say that women’s decisions in this area are being made in a vacuum — they’re not. Everything between the sexes is an interplay, and the acts (and inaction) of each sex impacts the other and vice versa.

  206. squid_hunt says:

    @disillusioned

    What they want is a church tell them it is ok to blow off their husband and damn be the kids if they have any. Then they are free to go back to the caroussel and after a few cycles find another bad boy.

    Ding, ding, ding. I don’t think anyone can put it any better than this. And it’s sad because the church is so willing to play its role.

  207. BillyS says:

    Disillusioned,

    Lets be honest. The reason you find these women complaining about how abusive their husbands are is because they picked the bad boys.

    That is a common point, but I disagree. I think normal male behavior has been villanized so much that almost all men are now guilty of horrible evil in the eyes of many. That is not helping anyone, but it is making many women only see the bad.

    My exwife says I “always cut her down”, completely ignoring any good thing I did over the course of our marriage. I am not a “bad boy” by almost any definition of the words, yet I am accused of the same things. The problem lies in female expectations.

    Ironically, women would be more likely to stick with the bad boys. Truly bad behavior is rewarded, not complained about, from such men.

  208. PokeSalad says:

    Ironically, women would be more likely to stick with the bad boys. Truly bad behavior is rewarded, not complained about, from such men.

    They want the AF and the BB in one man, ideally, but that’s a unicorn. So instead, they swing from branch to branch as their feelings dictate.

  209. Anonymous Reader says:

    Joe
    I’m reminded of the garden of Eden, when Eve decided to follow what the serpent said. And it’s clear from the text that Adam was standing right there watching, and did nothing.

    At the risk of igniting another endless round of theological hair splitting: How is this clear from the text?

    OKRicketty
    In my opinion, marriage is one of the areas that most needs teaching on forgiveness.

    In my experience, women tend to demand foregiveness for bad behavior, while at the same time refusing to apologize in any way for bad behavior. The quote attributed to Marilyn Monroe comes up as well, “If you can’t handle me at my worst, you don’t deserve my best”. Women therefore are big on talking about “foregivness” – for themselves – but not nearly so interested in change of behavior in order that foregiveness isn’t needed so much.

    Foregiveness is a gift, isn’t it? Who gets to demand a gift from someone else?

  210. earl says:

    At the risk of igniting another endless round of theological hair splitting: How is this clear from the text?

    Not sure if this is crystal clear that Adam was standing right there….

    ‘When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate

    …but it doesn’t matter if he was standing right there or was thousands of miles away when he ate…he still disobeyed God’s command.

  211. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    Yes, the women are making flawed decisions. But the fact that there are so many unmasculine “nice guy” men in Christianity these days is actually encouraging women to make the choices they’re making.

    Sure, but those “nice guy” men are doing what they were told to, they are obeying the figures of authority in their lives; from their mothers and primary school teachers and Sunday school teachers, to their mid high teachers, high school teachers, Youth group leaders, church mentors, their sisters…literally everyone in their lives is telling them the same thing, this is how you do it, this is what a Christian man looks like….and it is all feminizing, feminist cowshit.

    The Beta men in the churches are a logical, inevitable result of the entire culture both in school and church. These are the men that the church leaders, the school leaders and the mothers want.

    If a 22 year old man was lied to his entire life, how is it his fault that he believed the pretty lies?

    Nova, you believed those lies once. Remember how it was? Remember how it was when you first opened your eyes, and they hurt?

    PS: This is another example why Jordan Peterson is resonating so heavily with 20-something and younger men. Because he’s the only male human in the public arena who is on the one hand willing to tell them terrible truths such as “men and women are not interchangeable”, while at the same time not berating them, talking down to them, or blaming them for the lies their “betters” sold them.

  212. Anonymous Reader says:

    Disillusioned
    The reason you find these women complaining about how abusive their husbands are is because they picked the bad boys

    Could be true in some cases, but more likely the women in question are marred to Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) Betas, the standard churchgoing man version 2.0 as produced for years by churches. Because a genuine Bad Boy who actually was cheating on them, drinking too much, slapping them around from time to time – a woman married to one of those men is not likely to got to any women’s conference for a start.

    Note the actual examples of “heartbreaking abuse” that Thomas cites? Porn “addiction” is pretty much the only concrete thing, and that can of worms is pretty well explored by now, surely? The Duluth Wheel standards of “abuse” have percolated through society over the years, and it’s not difficult to find women who feel they were “abused” if a man shouts at them, or even worse tries to get them to rein in their spending, or reduce time spent on social media. The bait and switch (motte and bailey) game played by feminists is to equate that “abuse” with actual physical damage of the blackened eye / broken bone sort. Object to “we have to spend less money” as “abuse” and they hastily retreat to “Oh, so you think men have a right to beat women until they are unconscious?” or something similar.

    I just don’t buy the idea that all that many churchgoing women actually landed their AF Bad Boy. None of the ones that I’ve known came even close, they all wound up with ordinary Beta men, and Beta men just don’t abuse women – not deliberately, anyway.

  213. Bee says:

    @Pariah,

    “I myself am studying at a Baptist seminary this year and intend to found a red-pilled church in the next few years, God willing.”

    All the best, I hope you can found and grow a large red pill church.

  214. Else says:

    @ anonymous reader:

    In my experience, a significant number of Christian women who complain about their husband in certain ways married men outside the faith. At least that has been the case with the numbers I have encountered over the past decade. He may not have been a bad boy (sometimes he was) but it was not at all uncommon for them to have married a non-Christian man.

    And then when the shine wears off, she starts to talk of their conflicting values. Not long after that, separation talk starts. I am not -cannot- casting aspersions on those women. It’s just what I have witnessed.

    When I have heard women who married nice Christian guys complain about their husband, the complaints are of a very different scope and kind. Nothing about his being critical or mean or abusive. It’s usually he works too much, is kind of clueless about her feelings, the spark is gone, etc.

  215. BillyS says:

    it’s clear from the text that Adam was standing right there watching, and did nothing.

    I used to think that, but ignores what God charge Adam with:

    [Gen 3:17 KJV] 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

    The description in Gen 3:6 does indicate he was with her, but that does not require him standing by. I could be with someone in my house if they were upstairs and I was working in the basement.

    The fact that Gen 3:17 chastises Adam for listening to his wife means that she said something to him. That conversation is not recorded, but undermines the idea that she turned around and handed it to him without saying anything.

    Hence he was in the Garden with her, he was not standing by her side.

  216. BillyS says:

    Very true AR. Also keep in mind that women can easily ignore only good things and claim their husband only does evil. Imagine your own life with only the bad things you have done strung together. Anyone would probably sound quite bad that way, even if they were very good overall.

    Selective perception makes for great complaints, but poor theology.

  217. OKRickety says:

    AR,

    ‘In my experience, women tend to demand foregiveness for bad behavior, while at the same time refusing to apologize in any way for bad behavior. The quote attributed to Marilyn Monroe comes up as well, “If you can’t handle me at my worst, you don’t deserve my best”. Women therefore are big on talking about “foregivness” – for themselves – but not nearly so interested in change of behavior in order that foregiveness isn’t needed so much.

    Foregiveness is a gift, isn’t it? Who gets to demand a gift from someone else?’

    My experience was similar. My ex-wife almost never admitted to anything wrong, and when called on it often responded with “Aren’t I allowed to make a mistake?”. (Of course you are, but denying it happened or failing to repent of it does not deserve forgiveness.)

    While I think all forgiveness is a gift, Jesus did command us to forgive those who repent to us. If we don’t, that is our sin, but no one else has the right to demand that we do.

  218. Keith says:

    @Pariah let us know when and where you start this red pill church. You may get some red pill support.

  219. Paul says:

    I’ve also discussed this many times with people why divorce should not be allowed in church: it signifies an unwillingness to deal with forgiveness; if husband and wife are not able to deal with it, who can?

    Furthermore, I’ve noticed MANY women having difficulties dealing with perceived “flaws” in their husbands, and completely focusing on these. Several blogs out there describe experiences of wives who used to be like that (e.g. The Peaceful Wife).

    This was even noticed by the founder of islam (even though he was antichristian):

    “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one undesirable thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’”

    Were the complaining wives on Thomas’ conference married to Christian men? If so, why not? And if not, why did they not follow the advice of the apostle Peter?

    “Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.”

    Respectful and pure conduct… Whining to Thomas does not seem respectful to me.

  220. Anonymous Reader says:

    Paul
    Furthermore, I’ve noticed MANY women having difficulties dealing with perceived “flaws” in their husbands, and completely focusing on these.

    This is quite standard, it’s not just you, or me, or BillyS or OKRickety or Deti or any other man. One of the things that has been taken away from men is single-sex gatherings, where men can speak their mind without holding back. Anonymous Aged 60-something on the old Spearhead site laid out multiple times how the groups for divorced men he used to run back in the 80’s totally changed whenever a woman was admitted. The androsphere is our substitute for the lodge, the corner bar, etc. because here we discuss things without holding back for fear of offending women.

    Anonymous Aged 60-something would post from time to time several quotes from Proverbs which clearly showed “it’s not just women now, and it’s not just me'” to men. It is important to realize that women’s nature isn’t any different from thousands of years ago – they are inherently discontented, and when they are contentious a normal man just wants to be somewhere else, like “Better a tent on the roof than a fancy house with a contentious woman” or the Huck Finn verse, “Better to live in the wilderness than in a wide house with a contentious woman”. I’m sure more than one Spearhead reader saw those a few years back and had a definite shock of recognition.

    Back to women and the flaws in their men: in Game terms, that indicates his SMV has declined, he’s become betaized. Because we all know that women are quite ready to overlook any and all flaws in a man they are enraptured with. It’s only when they are no longer really in twu wuv that they start noticing all the little details that make a man into a poor fashion accessory – like the Prada handbag with the broken hinge, it once was great but now, hmm, not so much. The solution is to up his game, to do the things that “speak” to her hindbrain. Athol Kay’s original MAP (Male Action Plan) was good in this regard. So far as I know nobody has come up with an explicitly religious version, but I’m certain it could be done.

    Seeing all the bad and none of the good: Men Do That Too, but we tend to do it differently than women. Women love to complain to each other and to any man who will listen, so Thomas merely demonstrates his ignorance of women when he’s so surprised at the women’s conference. It could be amusing to sit down with a man like that and Rollo’s article on “War Brides”, for example.

    Several blogs out there describe experiences of wives who used to be like that (e.g. The Peaceful Wife).

    Might be good to have some links.

  221. earl says:

    Really the thing white knights, AMOG, male feminists and women have in common is that they can’t wait to find any reason to take down a man.

    There is a difference between insulting and belittling a man and challenging him to do better.

  222. els says:

    @ AR:

    In my experience, it is actually true that a significant number of women who offer certain kinds of complaints about their husbands have indeed married non-Christian men. They may or may not have been bad boys, but the complaints are different in scope and kind than the complaints of wives who married *nice Christian guys*. I usually note it because I have been taken aback that certain women that I never would have suspected were married to non-Christan men. They never struck me as *the type*. That is not to cast aspersions (as if I were one to do that…)

    Generally, it happens that as the shine wears off, they discover that their non-Christian husband has “different values” as evidenced by his unwillingness to acquiesce on things that have become more important to her than they seemed at the beginning. Hence, “mean”, “abusive” etc. It’s heartwrenching, really.

    Complaints of wives who married the nice Christian guy tend to be more along the lines of the works too much, isn’t attentive to her feelings, is generally clueless that the spark is gone, etc.

  223. els says:

    postscript:

    I should add that the article linked to by Dalrock for this particular post wasn’t as bad when read in its entirety as the excerpts used here implied.

  224. Paul says:

    Might be good to have some links.

    Well, I can’t tell if these are all to your liking, but at least they show experiences of wives who realized they were in the wrong about their husbands.

    https://peacefulwife.com/about/
    https://forgivenwife.com/new-to-this-blog-start-here/
    https://lorialexander.blogspot.com/

  225. feministhater says:

    Back to women and the flaws in their men: in Game terms, that indicates his SMV has declined, he’s become betaized. Because we all know that women are quite ready to overlook any and all flaws in a man they are enraptured with. It’s only when they are no longer really in twu wuv that they start noticing all the little details that make a man into a poor fashion accessory – like the Prada handbag with the broken hinge, it once was great but now, hmm, not so much. The solution is to up his game, to do the things that “speak” to her hindbrain. Athol Kay’s original MAP (Male Action Plan) was good in this regard. So far as I know nobody has come up with an explicitly religious version, but I’m certain it could be done.

    Sure, a man can do this but with the divorce threat and the Duluth Model waiting in the wings, it isn’t wise. You’re playing the woman’s game now.

    Generally, it happens that as the shine wears off, they discover that their non-Christian husband has “different values” as evidenced by his unwillingness to acquiesce on things that have become more important to her than they seemed at the beginning. Hence, “mean”, “abusive” etc. It’s heartwrenching, really.

    Complaints of wives who married the nice Christian guy tend to be more along the lines of the works too much, isn’t attentive to her feelings, is generally clueless that the spark is gone, etc.

    Yada, yada, blah blah blah… men shouldn’t care, that would sort all this stuff out.

    Women complain all the time, a man cannot make them happy. Women are to win over their husbands without a word. That counts for non-Christian husbands too. I never understood your incessant need to comment on male blogs, you should leave and take care of your family without the need for distraction.

    I should add that the article linked to by Dalrock for this particular post wasn’t as bad when read in its entirety as the excerpts used here implied.

    Well shit! When you take out all the divorce threats, promotion of divorce and ‘husbands are abusive’ memes, it almost reads like a children’s book.

  226. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hmm

    Somewhat on-topic: a long article about controlling men through shame:
    https://alastairadversaria.com/2018/02/10/on-men-shame-and-brotherhood/

    Somehat interesting, although very wordy (needs editing) and squishy. While it’s good to see an obvious TradCon actually deigning to notice women’s bad behavior, he makes a number of errors that are fundamental, such as the ridiculous assumption that women have any understanding at all of “hono(u)r”, or the off hand reference to Mark Regnarus’s blatant category error in his “cheap sex” idiocy.

    He has some good things to say, but his blind spots are so huge as to render the overall text nearly useless. Someone should inform him that Queen Victoria is dead, and women don’t belong on pedestals, just for a start.

  227. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    Really the thing white knights, AMOG, male feminists and women have in common is that they can’t wait to find any reason to take down a man.

    There is a difference between insulting and belittling a man and challenging him to do better.

    +1

    “Helpmeet” has nothing to do with chopping a man’s legs off at the knees with a chainsaw, but most women can’t grasp that fact.

  228. OKRickety says:

    els said:  “I should add that the article linked to by Dalrock for this particular post wasn’t as bad when read in its entirety as the excerpts used here implied.”

    Even when I tried to be generous in a second reading of Thomas’s entire post, I still think he is far from the truth.

  229. Anonymous Reader says:

    els
    In my experience, it is actually true that a significant number of women who offer certain kinds of complaints about their husbands have indeed married non-Christian men.

    First of all, isn’t the earlier phase of that called “missionary dating”? I’m having a “what did you expect to happen?” moment in my mind as I shake my head…

    Now, that said…do those women also go to Christian marriage conferences in any number? Truly wondering, because the kind of women I know of who go to “women’s conferences” in the church context tend to be married to Beta men. That doesn’t stop the meaner girls from finding some words or actions to be “abusive” when it suits them to do so, though.

    Anecdote: Recently heard some really mean passive-aggressive snark from oh-so-holy-in-public women, the kind who always are the first to wave their holy hands high in the air during church. Just from being the grey man in the corner while loud mouths were running. The best part for me was I knew the men they were married to – STEM type nerds who continuously bend over backwards to try to make their wives haaaaapy. Confirmation of “discontented and grumbling” as the normal condition for women, unless they are trained otherwise and continually retrained.

    Disclaimer:
    You and I don’t live in the same subcultures, so there’s some differences in experience that just are going to exist. I have no doubt you’ve seen what you’ve seen, heard what you heard. I’m just skeptical that this fully explains Thomas’s startling discovery.

    PS: You must have read a different article than I did. It’s not Mark Driscoll but in that direction for sure.

  230. Lost Patrol says:

    Even when I tried to be generous in a second reading of Thomas’s entire post, I still think he is far from the truth.

    Totally agree. It was every bit as bad to me as the excerpts implied (exposed). Even when I was a standard bearer for the tradcon white knight regiment, I would have known something was amiss with the nature of all those “constant” “despicable story after despicable story” reports.

    Thomas knows a lot of it is BS also, he’s not an idiot. What are his motives for so uncritically evaluating and passing along those reports?

  231. RICanuck says:

    The abusive men under the microscope are not the alpha cads the ‘holy’ Christian women married. They are the betas they settled with. I read through some of the comments and only noticed one that described actual abuse (if true).

    One woman was abused because her husband threatened suicide while on a cruise. My guess is that he bought the cruise in an attempt to relight the spark and save the marriage. The threat of suicide was when he realized that nothing he tried to have a real marriage was going to F___ing work!

    Another woman was abused when her husband stopped the car beside the highway and walked out after she asked a simple question. I am sure the simple question was one of many that caught him up belittled him, changed the subject, and she talked over his answers with more questions and accusations. I suspect the husband stopped the car, as alternative to driving off the next F___ing bridge and killing them both! If he had just backhanded her, she may regard him as less abusive.

  232. earl says:

    If he had just backhanded her, she may regard him as less abusive.

    Considering what women think the worst abuse is mostly hurt feelings…you are probably right.

  233. American says:

    The leftist fallacy that all men are evil and all women are virtuous innocent victims of men is a cornerstone of cultural Marxism, a lie of the devil, to destroy men and God’s design of and for the family.

  234. feeriker says:

    Confirmation of “discontented and grumbling” as the normal condition for women, unless they are trained otherwise and continually retrained.

    Western women in general, and North American women in particular, really need to experience a complete civilizational collapse.

  235. Anonymous Reader says:

    @Hmm

    Just because of your past discussion, I have read more text by Alistair, including his review at The Gospel Coalition of Regnarus’s new book on “Cheap Sex”. It’s been tedious. I’m less patient with tradcon foolishness, Romanticism and pedestalization of women now than I used to be. (Isn’t pedestalization of women a form of idol-worship? Is there anything in the Bible about that? Just asking…)

    Alistair either doesn’t know about hypergamy or doesn’t understand it or doesn’t care. Reading his text on male /female relations is like wading through some Ptolomaic text on the solar system – the epicycles, epi-epicycles, etc. of ever increasing pseudo complexity to paper over obvious facts that cannot be allowed into discusion HYPERGAMY gets really tedious.

    There are things he doesn’t know. Looks like he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know them, but that’s ok because as a PhD guy he’s satisfied he knows everything worth knowing. Maybe proud of his humilty, I dunno. Looks like a lot of 2nd wave egalitarian equalism from 2nd stage feminism is embedded in his head, too. It is not clear if he is actually capable of learning anything. Most White Knights aren’t.

    Personal question, Hmm:
    Why do you like these overly wordy writers? First you suggest that pompous Doug Wilson, who manages to write about himself more than pretty much anything else[1], now this guy. Do you just like to read lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of words that perambulate in a circumlocutory fashion wanderingly around the emanation of a penumbra of a possible, but not necessarily actual, point? Or is there something else there for you?

    [1] Dare you to go to Wilson’s church site and examine the “what we believe” text. It is not like any other “what we believe” link at any other church. But it is very appropriate for the Church of Doug Wilson.

    Bonus dare: try to figure out why Wilson is no longer part of a thing called “Federal Vision”. I have read his “not no more” text more than once and frankly find it to be a bolus of word salad.

  236. squid_hunt says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    “Helpmeet” has nothing to do with chopping a man’s legs off at the knees with a chainsaw, but most women can’t grasp that fact.

    Coincidentally, December 26th is our anniversary for when we started dating, which the wife was making a big deal out of. I picked up the movie Misery, not even thinking of the implications of a crazy woman that captures and imprisons a man and tortures him to force him to do what she wants and make her happy. (In the book, she cuts his legs off.)

    When she caught on to the bent of the movie, she made the connection. I thought it was hilarious.

  237. earl says:

    Western women in general, and North American women in particular, really need to experience a complete civilizational collapse.

    Men need to experience it more. It’ll remove the weak and keep the strong.

    If a man concerns himself more with God, finding food, water, shelter, warmth from the cold, safety, etc. because all those creature comforts have been taken away…things like worrying and apologizing about the hurt feelings of a woman drop way down the list on his biggest concerns.

  238. bdash 77 says:

    ugh I could not handle this
    https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/02/12/teach-boys-respect-women/

    misogyny is now a sin
    men need to celebrate and encourage the wifes gifts and callings

  239. squid_hunt says:

    @bdash

    The mistreatment of women—in thought, word, or deed—

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength…

    Tell me this isn’t deliberate subversion of the church of the true and living God with goddess worship.

  240. bdash 77 says:

    its funny, he asks men to not treat their wives as a servant
    yet men are commanded to be servants to their wives…

  241. bdash 77 says:

    its crazy
    in their minds men expecting wives to follow them, care for the home etc is mistreatment
    “misogyny” is a sin
    aka the cultures view of right and wrong is sin
    NOT the bible
    where in the bible does God condemn people for misogyny?
    I bet most Godly men in the bible thought women were weaker and less capable than men

  242. squid_hunt says:

    1960s, feminism goes mainstream. Two generations later, the church is overturning 2 millenia of order in the church and explaining how women are supposed to be in charge and we’ve had it all wrong the entire time.

  243. Swanny River says:

    Bdash,
    Remember, to them misogny is in the bible, just like being a servant-leader is. It’s right there with being a co-heir and the foot-washing passage and being one flesh.
    The trick is that they conflate a helpmeet with misogny. Funny, how easy it is for them to believe helping equals being hated and abused, yet it is so hard for them to see leadership is service.

  244. Stryker7200 says:

    Read and watched a lot of Gary’s stuff in the past, including at my church with my wife. Always thought he was decently on point but this article is off the wall. It was obvious he is a beta but whatever. Didn’t expect him to veer off like this so quick. Pretty sad. Will have to send to my church elders as they like him.

  245. bdash 77 says:

    @stryker yeah they all seem to start out right
    Chandler has some awesome sermons on gender from 2007- he deleted them all now … tbh if he preached that now he would get attacked
    he literally said women should not strive for a career if they want to be Godly

    with age and success- change

    same with Gary- we used to read him a lot but obviously his daughters feminism has influenced him..

  246. OKRickety says:

    RICanuck said:  “One woman was abused because her husband threatened suicide while on a cruise.”

    About a year before our divorce, my ex-wife became involved with Celebrate Recovery (a “Christ-centered program” started at Saddleback Church where Rick Warren is pastor). I believe this association was a significant factor in her decision to divorce me, because one of the primary aims is to get people involved in small, single-sex groups for 12-step study. She did this and I suspect the group fed off each other, intensifying each one’s unhappiness. In fact, she decided she wanted a divorce while she was doing the 12-step study.

    While I think the CR concept has the potential for good, it also has potential for evil. Since CR insists on confidentiality and there is little oversight of the groups, it is easy for a given group to be dangerous to the relationships of those in them. I highly recommend that wives be kept away from this ministry  unless you have great faith in the group’s leader.

    Your comment reminded me of my experience. My ex-wife specifically mentioned in her testimony at the completion of that study that I was suicidal or acted suicidal during our marriage. I am reasonably certain this was her interpretation of me saying “I wish I’d never been born” on multiple occasions. She didn’t call it abuse but I think the concept was present.

  247. BillyS says:

    OKRickety,

    Interesting point. I suspect you would get the same in anyplace that helps people overcome problems. Separating from those causing you problems is a good idea, but it can easily be twisted by a wife who only hears the negative about her husband.

    I was accused of threatening murder-suicide as well, probably because I mentioned to her at least once things I had read (here and elsewhere) about husbands who did that when their whole world was upended.

    I am still here, so clearly it was a lie, but few bother to validate things like that. It is easier to just believe a woman, because women never lie or misrepresent things in this area, right?

  248. Anonymous Reader says:

    Something worth noting: many people will put family above principle. I’m not going to argue “good” or “bad”, I’m just pointing out what is.

    When we rank family above principle, at some point principles will get bent or changed or even discarded. Early Bill Burr videos on YouTube have some very pointed and funny remarks about women. Then he got married…and now his routine has almost completely changed focus. It’s not nearly as funny for a start.

    Some of us may know of the family where a child announces that he or she is homosexual, and shortly after that the parents become more activist about “gay acceptance”, including in some cases advocating for their church to change certain policies.

    Family above principle in action.

    Thomas’s daughter’s note is a mix of 2nd stage and 3rd stage feminism; that stuff about “male gaze” and “why don’t guys have to take a class in NOT RAPING?” (they do), etc. It is a major tell that Thomas reprinted that stuff; it’s “doting father changing principles to fit current fashion of thinking because his daughter said so” in action. In surrendering to his daughter’s ideology Thomas shows he’s more of a weathervane than an oak tree. One cannot help but wonder what else in his theology he’d be willing to jettison or heavily modify in order to keep his iittle girl haaaaapy…

  249. Paul says:

    @OKRickety: sorry to hear about your divorce.
    In general, be VERY careful when involving church leadership. Better probe the waters to see what they actually belief. In many churches you will find a hard time finding an elder/pastor who is anti-divorce, pro-headship, pro-submission and willing to stand up for it.

  250. Daniel says:

    That Russell Moore piece is chock full of utter nonsense.

    Misogyny is hating women in general.
    Sexism is believing that men are superior.
    There’s a world of difference between the two.

    As a group, men are better than women in some things, and women are better than men at some things. The egalitarians will take issue, but that’s common sense.

    God has appointed men to authority in their marriages, homes, churches and states. Men are placed in the superior position, and women are to submit to the men who rule over them – women are in the inferior position. If this is a definition of sexism, then I am sexist.

    If we believe that men are “superior,” are we “misogynists?” No! We love them and rule in Christian love.

    These days feminists are calling anyone who disagrees with them a “misogynist.” When Christians start using the same language, they’ve fallen into the devil’s trap.

  251. squid_hunt says:

    @BillyS

    I was accused of threatening murder-suicide as well

    The best thing to do in those situations is to not defend yourself until you are standing in court and then ask for any corroboration of the accusations, then ask for them to be dismissed. The only reason to keep you talking is to give you enough rope to hang yourself and the cops are going to be more than willing to do so, because they’re the heroes women deserve.

  252. Hmm says:

    @AR:

    I linked to Alistair’s site because I so seldom see anything even remotely departing from blue pill thinking among the Christian writers I frequent (maybe I need a better set of bookmarks). I respect him and Doug Wilson for many of the other things they cover.

    As for Doug Wilson specifically, I have followed his stuff for many years, ever since I was a recovering theonomist. Until I discovered red pill a couple of years ago, I thought he was pretty wise in the ways of men and women, since he taught a strong form of submission and male headship (and seems to have a family that models it). I generally only link to him here in areas where he rises above the mainstream (faint praise, I know). I still appreciate his take on broader secular and Christian culture, and especially his ability to turn a quotable phrase. I have sympathy for his view on paedocommunion (giving communion to young kids), although I am in a tradition that rejects it. As far as the rest of Reformed theology, I am pretty much on the same page as him.

    From so much exposure, I am used to wordiness, and am not put off by it.

    To answer a question you did not ask, I moved into the manosphere (Dalrock, specifically) through a link from a comment on a Wilson post. Since I am older, married under Marriage 1.0, I find the things here enlightening but not much affecting my marriage. However, I have a friend who was divorce raped, another who has shed three wives (the first two his own doing), and I am working with a few young men in my church to help them understand why being a nice guy doesn’t seem to get the girl (I have counseled a couple of college-age girls as well to not put off marriage until they finish grad school). And the insights here have been extraordinarily enlightening on why my own relationships with women in high school and college failed.

    You’ll notice that if I’m not providing a link, I am generally addressing Scripture and its interpretation in the meta. I have taught the Bible for almost 40 years, and it’s one of the few areas I’ll try to correct someone who’s wrong on the internet.

  253. earl says:

    1960s, feminism goes mainstream. Two generations later, the church is overturning 2 millenia of order in the church and explaining how women are supposed to be in charge and we’ve had it all wrong the entire time.

    Give it time…in the future it will be declared a heresy. These things always take time.

  254. Swanny River says:

    Praise God that Hmmm has a 1.0 marriage and is in agreement with red-pill patriarchal teaching. It seems like many of the complementarian pastors have the 1.0 marriage but remain solid second-wave feminists, so it seems like Hmmm’s combination is hard to come by.
    I get very discouraged by Brothers like Thomas who seemingly so easily biy into the world because one of their kids is afflicted. It reminds me of reading about Rob Portman and what an awesome conservative Christian he was in prepping Romney, and then it comes out he is pro-gay-policy because his son is gay.
    What goes on in these guys heads when they read Jesus says “…and sin no more.” Do they get convicted internally, or don’t they connect it with their own children in sin?

  255. Damn Crackers says:

    A good link on feminism and finance at Cap’n Capitalism:
    http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2018/02/feminism-is-ruining-womens-finances.html

  256. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @Daniel
    That Russell Moore piece is chock full of utter nonsense.

    Misogyny is hating women in general.
    Sexism is believing that men are superior.
    There’s a world of difference between the two.

    As a group, men are better than women in some things, and women are better than men at some things. The egalitarians will take issue, but that’s common sense.

    A bit surprised to find myself saying this, but there’s a lot worse than Russell Moore out there.

    Between sexism and egalitarianism there’s another option that provides the worst of all worlds: The belief that men and women are complete equals, but men must still have rules something like the old chivalric codes applied to them in order to make everything function properly. Thus you get a world where the woman will be taught that she can be anything she wants to be but the man will learn there are punishments if he fails to be anything other than a dutiful and responsible little gentleman. Just witness this latest round of putrid platitudes from The Federalist:

    We Must Still Keep Teaching Our Boys They Must Never Hit Girls

    Several years ago while at a barbecue, an old friend who is a liberal feminist and I were watching my 4-year-old son play with her 4-year-old daughter. Eventually there was some dispute over a water gun that led to shoving. Almost simultaneously my friend cried out “No shrinking violets” to her daughter as I yelled “We don’t hit girls” to my son.

    It was an interesting moment, because I realized that my friend was absolutely right to teach her daughter not to back down from confrontations with boys. But I also knew that I was right to tell my son not to push or hit girls. These two ideas are both correct, but feel in some sense at odds with each other . . . . .

    . . . . . What struck me was that in order to instill this vitally important rule about men and women, I had to appeal to a distinctly biological reality: that men are stronger than women. In an age in which many parents and educators are actively trying to deemphasize traditional gender roles, I was drawing a line in the sand that must exist so as not to be crossed.

    But at the same time as establishing this important difference between the sexes, it’s necessary to make it understood in the context of a broader equality. Not hitting girls is not transactional. Boys and men don’t get something in return from women for obeying this rule. And it doesn’t mean that in a whole host of ways women aren’t extremely strong. We can walk and chew gum at the same time in these lessons, but it does require teaching boys that they have unique responsibilities.

    Link to the drivel is here: http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/11/must-still-keep-teaching-boys-must-never-hit-girls/

  257. squid_hunt says:

    @Earl

    Give it time…in the future it will be declared a heresy. These things always take time.

    Yeah, but unfortunately, the farther out we swing, the farther the opposing swing is.

  258. OKRickety says:

    Paul said:  “In general, be VERY careful when involving church leadership. Better probe the waters to see what they actually belief. In many churches you will find a hard time finding an elder/pastor who is anti-divorce, pro-headship, pro-submission and willing to stand up for it.”

    In my divorce, as far as I know, my (former) church leaders did nothing to keep the marriage intact. In fact, when I asked what they had said to my ex-wife, I was given the “It’s confidential” excuse.

    Even IF there was a leader who had the beliefs you list, finding one who is willing to stand up for it is unlikely because he is afraid of the herd (that is, at least the other leaders, if not the entire congregation).

    One further point about Celebrate Recovery is that, even though most of them meet at churches, I believe they insist on full autonomy in their ministry. If a problem develops with CR, the only recourse available to church leaders would be to remove their access to the church’s physical facilities.

  259. Swanny River says:

    OKR,
    At my conservative church, the elders would probably give the “It’s confidential” line, but if they strayed from their lawyerly weasel language, then it would only be for adding some above-it-all line, like, we believe she is earnest in her feelings and in most cases, both people have contributing sins.

  260. Swanny River says:

    The refusal to believe in what the bible and experience says about females is so deeply held that it’s stunning. Just look at the title of this post.
    It makes me think of something I read this morning in Isaiah 44:19, “No one stops to think, no one has understanding to say, ‘Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and ate.”
    They see the good from the wood and are blinded to the act of the powerlessness of their idols, likewise, our pastors and elders see the good in their self-styled encouragement of women’s self-esteem but are blind to their antibiblical cross-dressing.

  261. Novaseeker says:

    The belief that men and women are complete equals, but men must still have rules something like the old chivalric codes applied to them in order to make everything function properly. Thus you get a world where the woman will be taught that she can be anything she wants to be but the man will learn there are punishments if he fails to be anything other than a dutiful and responsible little gentleman.

    Right, this is basically the trad-con view. Trad cons are all at least “de facto” egalitarians — most are very supportive of hard-charging careers for their daughters and wives, and so on, but at the same time support neo-Victorianism for men. And it’s precisely as that writer describes it: nothing in it for men at all, all for the benefit of women. All obligation for men, no benefit, all benefit for women. These are neo-Victorians when it comes to men and how men are to relate to women, but de facto feminists when it comes to women (apart from abortion, for a plurality of them at least) — the classic alignment between de facto feminism and tradcon that rules the roost at places like NRO, for example. it’s deeply, deeply distrustful of men — disdainful of men as well, for the most part — and inherently pedestalizing of women.

    Of course, the thing is that young men are not fooled by this. Oh they learn not to *hit* girls, that’s true, and that’s good advice to stay out of jail. But they’re also disassociating, because the Pragers and NROs and Federalists of the world don’t reflect the reality they see in the young girls who are being taught to be aggressive go-getters and stomp all over young men in the process, often by the same trad-cons as their cheering section, while the same young women are bopping up and down on the carousel for a decade or more. The young men are not stupid. Many of them are clueless as to what to do to make things better for themselves, and many are disincentivized to do so, but they’re not blind to how young women actually are, because young women are not hiding their behaviors. It seems that only the tradcons are blind to these behaviors because they will themselves to be so, because if they did not do that and actually allowed themselves to see what young women are really doing with their full support and cheering, their worldview would utterly collapse. Easier and preferable to ignore that, and blame the young men for not manning up, and leave the neo-Victorian worldview (men bad, women good) intact.

  262. Hmm says:

    @Swanny,

    I’m not a pastor. I’m a ruling elder in the PCA, encouraged to teach but not allowed to preach (no seminary). There’s no trace of “woman worship” in our church, men lead as elders and deacons, and there’s virtually no divorce. We are a church with many large families (pastor has 7, others range from 8 kids on down) and remarkably stable marriages. Want to work to keep it that way, and to help the kids marry well.

    My main worry is that the PCA will let the camel’s nose into the tent by allowing women deacons. If that happens, it’s just a matter of time before we’ll have to swallow the whole camel (we have agreed that we will leave the denomination first!)

  263. BillyS says:

    Hmmm,

    I was in a church that only had male leaders (and deacons as far as I know), yet they undermined my marriage and the pastor’s wife had a lot more control than any formal position. Formal structure does not always indicate internal structure. I would suspect they would also claim few divorces, and they even preached “Divorce is not an Option” the weekend before my wife filed, but that didn’t stop their support for her in her divorce. The pastor called her once to talk with her about it, but far too late to be any help.

  264. Lost Patrol says:

    When we rank family above principle, at some point principles will get bent or changed or even discarded

    This is a powerful driving force. Immediately upon reading this I could call to mind examples I’ve seen personally within a few short months and based on other comments I’m not alone in that. Any and every line will be re-drawn in an effort to pour oil on troubled waters. I’ve personally witnessed tradcon religious men accept lesbianism, warrior women, gogirl ministry leaders, old lady demands for church redecorating, the skinny jeans for women in church fad that looks basically like body paint – essentially just fold up in the face of any previously held principles – because it was a family member or family member of friends/church hierarchy that was behind it.

    Houses built on shifting sand.

  265. OKRickety says:

    AR said:  “When we rank family above principle, at some point principles will get bent or changed or even discarded.”

    In the Christian context, the problem is ranking our selfish desires above God’s desires. That has been and still is a common mistake.

  266. squid_hunt says:

    In the Christian context, the problem is ranking our selfish desires above God’s desires.

    I would argue that putting family above principle is 100% about you. Just like when people refuse to correct their children in accordance with the Bible because they LOVE them too much to hurt them. It’s not about the child. It’s about them. The Bible says if you love your child, you’ll correct them.

  267. feeriker says:

    I’ve personally witnessed tradcon religious men accept lesbianism, warrior women, gogirl ministry leaders, old lady demands for church redecorating, the skinny jeans for women in church fad that looks basically like body paint – essentially just fold up in the face of any previously held principles – because it was a family member or family member of friends/church hierarchy that was behind it.

    Given that tradcucks have absolutely no fixed principles anyway, abandoning the principles that they pretend to hold when such a pretense is no longer expedient is as easy for them as breathing.

  268. Pariah says:

    For anyone curious, I live in Australia, so any church plant which I start will be here in the Land Down Under. (As I assume that most regulars here are from the US).

  269. earl says:

    Given that tradcucks have absolutely no fixed principles anyway, abandoning the principles that they pretend to hold when such a pretense is no longer expedient is as easy for them as breathing.

    I see it differently.

    Tradcucks fixed principle is feminism…however they want it to come about at a slower pace.

  270. UK Fred says:

    @squid_hunt
    There is a problem endemic in modern society that we should avoid hurting people and their feelings. I believe that this is wrong. For example, in the UK a pastor was prosecuted for hate sp[eech for claiming that islam is satanic, because this was hurtful to the feelings of mohammedans. He argued, inter alia, that to not tell people that islam is satanic is much worse because to fail to warn them would cause eternal harm because it puts their eternal future at risk. So very often we are too obsessed with avoiding causing hurt that we do in fact cause potentially eternal harm. Henry Cloud summed it up pretty succinctly when he said that the dentist, filling the cavities, can hurt but does not harm, while the sugary drink that rots the teeth does not hurt but does harm.

  271. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hmm
    I linked to Alistair’s site because I so seldom see anything even remotely departing from blue pill thinking among the Christian writers I frequent (maybe I need a better set of bookmarks). I respect him and Doug Wilson for many of the other things they cover.

    At best Alistair is pink pill – blue with a tiny tinge of red. For example, he believes that women understand hono(ur) which is false: it’s false by direct observation, it’s false by evolutionary psych, and I doubt very much there is any support for that notion in the Bible (but I expect you to correct me if I’m wrong). He’s obviously an equalitarian, although dresses it up in some other words.

    As for Doug Wilson specifically, I have followed his stuff for many years, ever since I was a recovering theonomist. Until I discovered red pill a couple of years ago, I thought he was pretty wise in the ways of men and women, since he taught a strong form of submission and male headship (and seems to have a family that models it).

    Maybe he teaches that with words, but the way he relates to women on his own website stinks of pedestalization – always deferring to the Female Imperative. No way Wilson is anything close to red pill. When I read his text sometimes a visual memory of a tea room I once visited floats up in my mental eye: walls colored mainly lavendar with accents of mauve and a few highlights of pink.

    Doug Wilson is lavendar pill.

    I generally only link to him here in areas where he rises above the mainstream (faint praise, I know). I still appreciate his take on broader secular and Christian culture,

    I’m not complaining about your linkage, that’s above my pay grade, but thanks for explaining why you find those men interesting.

    From so much exposure, I am used to wordiness, and am not put off by it.

    Diffferent cultural environment, then. From reading legislation, contracts, think tank pieces and research documents, historical writings, etc. over the years I have learned to view wordiness with skepticism: when a man takes 100 words in multiple paragraphs to say something that only requres two sentences, in my experience he’s hiding something, or avoiding something, or otherwise obfuscating…in other words, I start asking myself “Where is the lie? There is a lie here, where is it?”

    To answer a question you did not ask, I moved into the manosphere (Dalrock, specifically) through a link from a comment on a Wilson post. Since I am older, married under Marriage 1.0, I find the things here enlightening but not much affecting my marriage. However, I have a friend who was divorce raped, another who has shed three wives (the first two his own doing), and I am working with a few young men in my church to help them understand why being a nice guy doesn’t seem to get the girl (I have counseled a couple of college-age girls as well to not put off marriage until they finish grad school). And the insights here have been extraordinarily enlightening on why my own relationships with women in high school and college failed.

    You are doing good work, especially in the advice to young women. I have seen several marriages in my social circle in the last couple of years, a typical one being the 27 year old church intern who had been on a couple of mission trips but obviously did not find a man. The advice to young men is also good, but I caution you to not hold out any hope of a Marriage 1.0 to them, since that’s just off the table now even for the most serious of churchgoing couples. If he doesn’t have some degree of “presence”, of inner Game, there will be trouble of some sort ahead.

    A college grad today isn’t going to go work for a Fortune 500 company for 25 years and then collect a pension, either.

  272. bdash 77 says:

    Alistair is hardly pink pill
    he is hosting a conference nest year arguing for the elimination of gender roles, inclusion of women preachers and husbands as homemakers to support an ambitious woman in her calling….

  273. Anonymous Reader says:


    he is hosting a conference nest year arguing for the elimination of gender roles,

    I’ll do my own search, thanks for the heads up. For others…could you provide a link?

  274. bdash 77 says:

    http://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/announcing_think_2018_the_future_of_complementarity

    Andrew wilson basically wants to integrate feminism with the bible, he keeps praising his wife for preaching and his wife praises his domestic skills on social media
    it is so obvious what they want to achieve

  275. Anonymous Reader says:

    @bdash77

    Thanks for that link. It appears Alistair has a book he’ll be selling later this year, too.
    His mind is made up, so bohering him with inconvenient facts would be a waste of time and energy.
    You’ve just saved me a bit of work. Thanks.

    @Hmm
    Any re-evaluation of Alistair on your part? Just curiousity on my part.

  276. PokeSalad says:

    Given that tradcucks have absolutely no fixed principles anyway, abandoning the principles that they pretend to hold when such a pretense is no longer expedient is as easy for them as breathing.

    “Those are my principles. If you don’t like them, I have others.” – WC Fields (?)

  277. craig says:

    Close — not W.C. Fields, but Groucho Marx. From “Duck Soup”, I think.

  278. Mitch says:

    In Gary Thomas latest posting, he actually sings the praises of low T:

    “Wives, if you can learn to live with and appreciate your confusing male- brain husband through his twenties, thirties, and forties, there’s a surprising payoff in his late fifties and beyond: because older male brains produce less testosterone and vasopressin, the ratio of estrogen to testosterone increases, which means “hormonally the mature male brain is becoming more like the mature female brain.”*”

    I guess I need to quit testosterone replacement therapy and get in touch with my feminine side. Otherwise, I am depriving my wife of the “surprising payoff”.

    Does this guy even think through the implications of what he is saying?

  279. Gunner Q says:

    “Does this guy even think through the implications of what he is saying?”

    Unquestionably yes. “This means I’m normal!”

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