Does God want us to complain?

anonymous_ng linked to a post by pastor and Christian life coach Dr. Raymond Force, titled Where Men Blow It.  Force explains that Scripture teaches us that God doesn’t mind it when we complain, and therefore Christian husbands shouldn’t discourage their wives from grumbling (emphasis mine):

On many occasions in the scriptures, especially Numbers 11:11-15, God’s men offered their complaint before the Lord.

[Quotes Psalm 77:3 and Numbers 11:11-15]

What I love about scriptures as such is they teach us that it is okay to reverentially offer our concerns, fears, worries, and even complaints before the Lord. What I also feel is fascinating is that one never finds God taking these complaints as though they are an attack against his person, nor do they find God getting defensive or taking things personally.

A woman needs a place to express, complain, vent, et cetera without condemnation. But, if a man is too wrapped up in his own sensitivities, he will fail to provide that which Christ offers to him on a daily basis.

The emphasized part is a bold claim, but very easily disproved.  In fact, the very chapter Force quotes in Numbers as proof that God doesn’t mind when we grumble is all about God’s anger when we grumble.  Numbers 11 opens with God’s fiery anger with the Israelites for complaining.  This isn’t just metaphorical fiery anger, but God’s anger in the form of actual flames (Num 11:1, KJV):

11 And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

God was so angry with the Israelites for complaining about the food that he provided them, that He chose to punish them by feeding them (Num 11:18-20, KJV):

18 And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the Lord, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the Lord will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.

19 Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days;

20 But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the Lord which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?

The same chapter ends with God killing some of the Israelites because of his anger at their complaining (Num 11:33-34, KJV):

33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague.

34 And he called the name of that place Kibrothhattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

Even the part that Force quotes where Moses complains to God is about the evil of people complaining to their leaders.  Force left this out by starting at verse 11 instead of 10, which provides the context.  Moses was complaining about the burden the complainers were to him as a leader*:

10 Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.

11 And Moses said unto the Lord, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?

Later, in chapter 14, God becomes so angry that the Israelites are still complaining that He tells Moses that He is going to smite them and start over with a new people (Num 14:11-12, KJV):

11 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

After Moses intervenes on their behalf, God agrees to forgive them.  However, none of the complainers will be permitted to enter the promised land.  Instead, the entire tribe must wander the desert for 40 years until the complainers are all dead (Num 11:33-34, KJV):

20 And the Lord said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord.

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

So given the clarity of the Scripture Force is quoting, why does he assert that:

..one never finds [in Scripture] God taking these complaints as though they are an attack against his person, nor do they find God getting defensive or taking things personally.

Why does Force make such a laughable statement, one so easy to completely disprove?  The answer is, Force wants to excuse the sin of wives by making it a sin for husband to teach his wife what Scripture says about complaining, or to in any way discourage her from complaining:

A woman needs a place to express, complain, vent, et cetera without condemnation. But, if a man is too wrapped up in his own sensitivities, he will fail to provide that which Christ offers to him on a daily basis.

Note:  I plan on writing a follow up post on the rest of the claims Force makes in Where Men Blow It.

*See also Hebrews 13:17.

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84 Responses to Does God want us to complain?

  1. SnapperTrx says:

    Facts. They hurt!

    This just looks like willful disregard for what the scripture actually says. And since the majority of people reading his post will read the scripture he quotes, but never actually study said verses there’s little to no chance of anyone calling him on it. Just one more verse up gives context, but they will likely never even read it.

  2. getalonghome says:

    It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman.
    A complaining wife is like water that never stops dripping on a rainy day. Stopping her is like trying to stop the wind or trying to hold oil in your hand.
    A foolish son is the calamity of his father, and the contentions of a wife are a continual dripping

    I could go on, but I really don’t need to. There is no possible justification for what this man is say. What I don’t get is how he thinks he’s made any argument at all. They used to bring (bad, very stupid, easily refuted) arguments. Now they just quote the relevant scriptures and deny the very scripture they quoted. I guess refutation is so easy that they don’t see any need to put up a fight. People are going to love what they say no matter how obviously wrong it is, so why waste time trying to make it sound right?

    I figured out what was wrong with James Dobson back when I heard him say it’s ok to get mad at God, because He’s big. He can take it! Yeah, won’t hurt God none when I shake my little fist at Him, but my soul sure can’t handle the fallout of that. Being angry at God is the precise opposite of trusting Him and submitting to him. Bad, bad advice. I don’t think he ever offered any Biblical support, so maybe he was at least smart enough to figure out there wasn’t any. This thing you found here is just jaw-dropping in a whole new way.

  3. Trust says:

    Reminds me of when my wife told the ladies in her (former) Bible study group that I said she spent too much money on junk and frivolous entertainment. They concluded that “the devil is whispering in your husband’s ear trying to make him feel he will fail, so you should have faith in him.”

    Basically, they told her I was sinning by telling her she was overspending. So I guess the way to resist the devil is by doing the opposite of what a husband says.

    Problem is people fear women more than they fear God.

  4. Pingback: Does God want us to complain? | @the_arv

  5. American says:

    Can’t fill the pews with the truth so they have to teach something else in order for the money to keep coming in. They got bills to pay.

  6. bradford says:

    How can a pastor misuse scripture in such an outrageous way? It is impossible to give Dr Force the benefit of the doubt on his interpretation here. This can only be intentional and with full knowledge that what he teaches is a lie. This intentional twisting and misrepresentation of scripture qualifies Dr Force as a false teacher in my book.

  7. tape says:

    Phil. 2,14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing,
    15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

  8. tape says:

    Strange teaching from Mr. Force.

  9. earlthomas786 says:

    Problem is people fear women more than they fear God.

    That’s what happens when people make women into gods instead of worshiping the actual God.

  10. thedeti says:

    How can a pastor misuse scripture in such an outrageous way?

    1) He is interpreting scripture in a way pleasing to women and that justifies and supports their decisions, lifestyles, and treatment of their families.

    2) He cherry picks scripture – finds a sentence, clause or snippet with words that sound good, pulls it from its context, and inserts it where he wants to and/or uses it in a way that ignores, changes or completely abolishes its original meaning.

    Most common example: “Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged” Original meaning: You will be judged by the same measure with which you judge others. Current secular Churchian feminist meaning: It has become the 12th Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Judge. Thou shalt not judge or evaluate or have any standards for anything or anyone, especially women and what sexual/marriage decisions they make.

    3) He doesn’t understand the scripture or its historical and textual context.

  11. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Dalrock

    Don’t forget to navigate over to the “storefront” at hittinghomeministry.

    http://www.shop.hittinghomeministry.com/main.sc

    It seems to be the only place you can get your hands on Dr. Force’s 2-step process for strengthening your marriage. I watched the video labeled “Be sure to watch our video that explains our 2-Step Process to Strengthening Your Marriage”. Unfortunately the video does not explain the process, only encourages me to learn more by buying the book, audio CD series, or MP3 format. I decided to wait for the movie version.

  12. BillyS says:

    Would he be fine with husbands complaining about their wives? I bet not….

    Though I do note that David gripes quite a bit in the Psalms. God lived with it and went past it. I complained at Him a bit when I went through my divorce, but I didn’t get stuck there, and I think that is the main point. It was a rough time and God can handle that. The problem comes when it becomes an ongoing attitude, especially one that greatly hinders our lives.

    I could live with a wife who brought up concerns if they could be worked out. Letting me know what is bothering her is better than letting it simmer and only pretending to ignore those complaints.

  13. David says:

    A million bucks says that the cuck will never write a sister article : “Where Women Blow It”, or at least that it will still mostly blame men.

  14. Dalrock says:

    @BillyS

    Would he be fine with husbands complaining about their wives? I bet not….

    No. Because that would be “criticizing” her, and a husband’s role is to win his wife over without a word (my followup post pending).

    Another way to look at it is if God really wants husbands to encourage their wives to complain as much as they like (thereby mirroring God– according to Force), surely parents should do the same for their children. Surely then, Children need to be encouraged to complain to their parents as much as they desire.

  15. @BillyS

    “Though I do note that David gripes quite a bit in the Psalms. God lived with it and went past it. I complained at Him a bit when I went through my divorce, but I didn’t get stuck there, and I think that is the main point. It was a rough time and God can handle that. The problem comes when it becomes an ongoing attitude, especially one that greatly hinders our lives.”

    You make an important point; you can state what you feel to God or ask Him anything, but the asking is only the first step. The second is aligning yourself with God’s agenda, via the example of Christ in Gethsemane: “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

  16. earlthomas786 says:

    On many occasions, however, a man will see the shortcomings of his wife, her emotional vulnerabilities, or mood swings and offer criticism rather than grace. If this occurs, then it must be understood that he is failing to love his wife as Christ loved the church in that he is allowing the atmosphere in his marriage to be that of criticism rather than grace and understanding.

    I hate to break it to the pastor…only God can offer grace. He can’t even get that right.

    I think the term he was trying to use there was mercy.

  17. Oscar says:

    “Why does Force make such a laughable statement, one so easy to completely disprove?” ~ Dalrock

    Because he knows most Christians don’t read the Bible. And those who do ready the Bible, mostly skip the Old Testament. So he knows few Christians will know enough of the truth to call BS.

  18. Spike says:

    What does, ”When a man is too wrapped up in his sensitivities” mean?
    Is it that the pressures of hazardous work, or insane deadlines make him seem strangely disconnected at the end of the day?
    Isn’t he supposed to have ”sensitivities” anyway? You know the ones: Men are supposed to cry, express themselves etc just like women. I know because my feminist teachers have told me so for a lifetime.
    I am no fan of Tom Leykis, as he is very cavalier about abortion, but I’m inclined to think Leykis has a point in one of his talks: Women and their white knight abettors (Pastors very frequently get included in this group) need to stop. They need to stop telling men there’s something wrong with being a man. There isn’t anything wrong inherently with being a man, so the media / corporate hate-fest is wrong.
    There is something wrong with sin as rebellion against God, and this is where man and woman alike have fallen short. Pastors, please take up the matter of sin in ”the fairer sex”, please…..

  19. earlthomas786 says:

    There is something wrong with sin as rebellion against God, and this is where man and woman alike have fallen short. Pastors, please take up the matter of sin in ”the fairer sex”, please…..

    An interesting thing happened when sin suddenly wasn’t talked about….we still knew something was still wrong, but we didn’t correctly point it out anymore.

    Now what we have is basically calling men evil and women good. Which we know isn’t true…we’ve both fallen short.

  20. Pingback: Does God want us to complain? | Reaction Times

  21. freebird says:

    Men are to be the discipline of the wives.
    This has been removed by law and by churchians.
    Making this a fully anti-Christic society held in place *temporarily* by The Police state until the Moslems can take over with real “godly” laws.
    At least the Moslem men understand what it is that must be done,Xians are too weak and will be replaced.
    Embrace the genocide. (Thanks, “Pastor”)

  22. feministhater says:

    Once again the ‘fairer’ sex requires kid gloves and needs to be able to rant, abuse, curse, nag and generally belittle their husbands constantly; and if hubby doesn’t allow it, corrects her or tells her to stop, he’s a mean, nasty and unGodly husband.

    Why, oh why don’t men man up and marry those sluts?! Such a mystery!

  23. Embracing Reality says:

    Charismatic “ministry” is a profitable business for those who master it. Dr Farce has no doubt completed his doctorate in BS. You don’t become successful in this bottom line business by telling people the truth. You succeed by telling them what their itching ears want to hear.

  24. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    Why does Force make such a laughable statement, one so easy to completely disprove?

    Possibly he’s so far gone into the land of White Knighting he does not expect disagrement, because like Sam Powell, Matt Walsh and others his actual paying audience is mostly a mix of women and other White Knights. An echo chamber online can be very self-reinforcing.

    Another alternative is he just doesn’t know the Bible very well. Social relevance is more important to him, along with his business..er…”ministry”. How many pastors deliberately read the whole book once they are out of seminary, I wonder, vs. how many use summaries / etc.c?This alone would explain how often the White Knights have to mangle plain language Bible quotes into a strange shape to justify their curious beliefs; they don’t really know what they are referring to.

  25. A woman needs a place to express, complain, vent, et cetera without condemnation. But, if a man is too wrapped up in his own sensitivities, he will fail to provide that which Christ offers to him on a daily basis.

    Momma picks the church. If she isn’t happy listening to the preacher, then no one goes to THAT church. Then the offering plate is empty and the Pastor has nothing to eat.

    If dad puts his foot down and tells her that the family IS going to that church, momma gets lawyer and cash and prizes. Nothing gets in the way of her eating all those apples. She wants to be God.

  26. Scott says:

    I suppose BillyS has the right of it.

    The complaining the Israelites do is always characterized as obnoxious bitching.

    When I went through my divorce, I was angry. For about 2 years I held on to that anger. I wanted to stand in the middle of the street and wave my fist at Him, like a child.

    The next 8 or so was a waxing and waning between ambivalence and outright rebellion against Truth.

    Eventually I calmed down. But I don’t think God would have been encouraged or pleased by my behavior and complaining. It wasn’t until I came broken, humbly asking for a new start that He was probably even listening to me.

    Likewise, with complaining to your husband. When Mychael comes to me calmly and rationally with a concern, I usually go out of my way to resolve it satisfactorily because

    1. Its usually something I don’t really care that much about and
    2. She asked so nicely.

  27. BillyS says:

    I am very glad I never got that far Scott, but I agree with your point. I find great comfort in the fact that God completely understands my struggles. I still don’t like them, but I have come to my own form of “not my will, but Yours be done.” That is fortunately the only way to approach things, since any other approach won’t change the situation. I just keep plugging away and following His will the best I can.

  28. Out of Nod says:

    Apparently “Do all things without complaining (grumbling) or arguing” doesn’t mean anything – those who tolerate Jezebel are getting tiresome.

  29. feeriker says:

    A woman needs a place to express, complain, vent, et cetera without condemnation. But, if a man is too wrapped up in his own sensitivities, he will fail to provide that which Christ offers to him on a daily basis.

    Pastor Farce seems to be implying here that hubby is the sounding board/punching bag for complaining wifey in the way that God (supposedly) was for the Israelites in the desert. In other words, hubby is God’s proxy. If this is what Farce intends to say, it prompts the question: why shouldn’t husbands deal with complaining wives the way God dealt with complaining Israelites (i.e., giving them something to complain/cry about)?

  30. feeriker says:

    Apparently “Do all things without complaining (grumbling) or arguing” doesn’t mean anything –

    No, because Paul said it, not Jesus or God. Besides, everybody knows that Paul was just a misogynist bully, right? (If all else fails, somebody will assert that Paul was directing that message specifically to the church at Philippi and nowhere else).

  31. Luke says:

    I went to the “How Men Blow It” essay link. I provided this comment; any bets on whether or not it will pass (likely Churchian/SJW) moderation?

    “Red-pilled men already fully understood before reading this essay where men blow it with women (demonstrating perceived lower value to women, or DLV). Think of how a new car loses close to 40% of its book value in the first 20′ it is driven off the dealership’s property. So it is once a women has gained commitment from a man. This applies fully to a man that she EITHER (both not needed) has borne a child by him, or gotten him to marry her. Lesser levels of commitment, i.e., engagement, moving in together, going explicitly exclusive, etc., all result in lesser but still very significant reductions in how highly she rates a man.

    Then, he has put himself in a situation where he must be able to count on her loyalty and continued fidelity/affection, when she is more likely than not now unwilling to completely (if at all) give them. The pattern is as clear and predictable as it is sadly common. She now will ease off on the sex/affection/encouragement/being helpful or supportive to him in any way, while becoming less and less resistant to obesity, overspending, infidelity, cuckolding him, and finally frivorcing him so as to steal his property/children/future income.

    The solution is as obvious as it is non-PC. If he never commits to her, never moves in with her, never impregnates her, never marries her, never shares finances with her beyond a weekend outing, etc., when she becomes a net negative, he can mmediately just delete her phone number and block her emails, and move on to another woman, one that also will only be in his life while she shows she deserves being there. (He will of course either get a vasectomy and eschew fatherhood, or pursue that laudable goal solely as a single father by egg donor & gestational surrogacy, NEVER marrying/cohabitating/letting any woman adopt his children, and ensuring he and his children will never be parted his this side of the grave.)

    Let modern American women grow old in near-poverty with their office jobs, Lifetime movies, romance novels, “Ms.” magazines, and 10 cats for sole company, while he follows a better path.”

  32. mrteebs says:

    I surfed around on Dr. Force’s website for a few minutes yesterday, before Dalrock posted this reply. I wanted to see if it would live up to my, uh, expectations. It exceeded them.

    My first task was to use his site’s search utility and enter the phrase “Where Women Blow it.” I mean, surely there will be a counterbalancing message at play here – equally stern charges to both men and women, right?

    Not surprisingly, no hits under that exact title (it would be expecting way too much that he’d counter the man-up message with anything resembling balance). But there were two hits that did come up, so I followed them:

    1) Why men are protesting
    2) A woman really wants what she doesn’t want

    #1 starts out with a few observations on female hypocrisy. I’m cautiously optimistic. Maybe this guy will prove me wrong and be the one out of ten thousand that actually gets it right. Maybe this guy will use those observations to make this a teachable moment. So I read on to his next section, breathless with anticipation: “How we ended up in such a place”.

    (Cue record scratch noise)

    Quite simply, women started taking a control that they would rather surrender about 50 years ago when men stopped acting like men.

    So there you have it. MEN made women do it. They didn’t want to wrest control. We gave them no choice. Their rebellion? YOUR FAULT GENTLEMEN.

    Hmmm. I wonder how that would play had it been used when Moses came down from the mountain. “Golden calf? Your fault, dude. Stayed up there too long. What did you expect? I have NEEDS and you weren’t around to cater to them. Take it up with God if you don’t like my behavior. YOU drove me to it.”

    LInk #2 also helpfully points out that this state of affairs is again, all men’s fault:

    Our women are negative, skeptical, and tight-spirited in our day because it has been a few generations since they have seen real men at large.

    Also, Dalrock readers, you’ll be happy to know that there is an upcoming “Marriage Event” on March 17th. But space is limited…

  33. feeriker says:

    Also, Dalrock readers, you’ll be happy to know that there is an upcoming “Marriage Event” on March 17th. But space is limited…

    March 17th. Saint Patrick’s Day. Imagine showing up to Force’s “event” with a snootful of Guinness or Tullamore Dew.

    Actually, that’s probably the only condition in which any self-respectingman could show up to such an event.

  34. Paul says:

    Problem is people fear women more than they fear God.

    Similar to what happened with Adam, and for which he was rebuked by God; he obeyed his wife instead of obeying God. He let her domineer him, instead of domineering her.

    Now, churches are failing men who are dealing with rebellious wives, who refuse to follow their men, when these men try to report these sins to the church. These churches not only do not recognize this behavior as sinful, but will actually shame men and accuse *them* of sin. And at the same time are calling men weak, chastising them to “pick up their responsibilities”, and trying to change them into something they are not: weaklings fully submitted to their Jezebel wives.

    This is what happens if people stop obeying God. “Has God really said…?” It never fails to amaze me that many theologians are in the business of letting the bible mean the exact opposite of what it to most people seem to tell us.

  35. Minesweeper says:

    like everyone else here I ventured over to his site, I could feel the spirit quench inside just browsing it. what a pedestalizing heretic , its truly sickening and appalling how far things have fallen with these “Christian marriage councillors”, its supply and demand I guess, as all of them who dare to criticize wives will find them without any customers very quickly, and those who pander to women will find themselves prosperous and inundated.

    capitalism at work.

    if you are a lying, cheating, abusive, murdering(abortion or otherwise), stealing, manipulative woman nowadays, society the law and the churches really couldnt treat you any better.

    it has to be seen to be believed.

    whereas in the UK they want to pass laws dictating hate crime for wolf whistling (already applies in certain areas)- this would apply to all males (inc husbands) and would involve jail time.

    im not sure really how much further in our decent to hell we can cope with.

  36. Hmm says:

    I think the key to understanding the Scripture is to look at the difference between grumbling and complaining. A complaint is made to someone who has the power to take action. Grumbling is done to anyone else.

    The Scripture is full of complaints done right. Consider Abraham’s complaint to God, when He was planning on destroying Sodom and Gomorrah: “Will you destroy the righteous with the wicked?” God answered this complaint, even bargaining, and was not angry at Abraham. The Psalms and prophets are full of such complaints to God, which he honors and answers.

    But God rebukes grumbling strongly. We see this mainly among the Israelites, who grumbled “among themselves”. But Moses took their complaints before God, who could do something about it, and God honored Moses (even as He punished the grumblers).

    As a church elder, I would much rather have someone lodge a complaint with us about something amiss than grumble about it to others. We can take action on a solid issue, but cannot calm all the worried second- and third-hand grumblers who continue on even when the issue is fixed.

    And so, in a household, the wife should complain to her husband about specific issues, and not grumble in a general way or talk about them to others. And the husband likewise to the wife. And both parties should be humble enough to hear and answer a valid complaint – and accept a valid answer, even if it might be what they don’t want to hear.

  37. Novaseeker says:

    So there you have it. MEN made women do it. They didn’t want to wrest control. We gave them no choice. Their rebellion? YOUR FAULT GENTLEMEN.

    Remember, this is the same argument they use about women in the military: not a power grab by women, but women being forced into the role by weak men not stepping up.

    When all you have is a hammer, everything indeed looks like a nail.

  38. Was actually at a pretty in depth discussion with some fellow Salvationits last night at a home study. We were discussing why sometimes God doesn’t “seem” to answer prayer. Well………..Major Carole, mentioned the Scripture of 1 Peter 3:7 saying that “since men no longer respect women, and are no longer considerate ‘in general’ of them this is why God is not hearing their prayers, and why the church is failing in many cases”

    Usually I am polite but this comment………well, there was not grumbling by me…….but there was a tad of righteous anger by me.

    I disagreed and mentioned that comment was for husbands, and nowhere in that verse did it say “respect” women. I asked her to clairify in her owns words what does “respect” mean? I also asked her in that time when this was divenly inspired, women *were* respected? Is that why the early church grew? I also mentioned that verse called women a “weaker vessle” and did dhe agree with this? I purported that *before* anyoner here purports any sin I have in their defense, my behavior to the Officer class in this Army……..women and men has been impeccable. I don’t look at my sisters in lust. I am a gentleman, and there is not one blemish on my character here…….any reply that tries to shame, discourage or somehow smear me will not be acknowledged. I continued with “God not hearing prayers of men because they don’t respect women and are not considerate is a bunch of radishes; what you are implying Major is that since men don’t do exactly what women say, God will not hear their prayers”

    Well…..the whole living room erupted into several dicussions….she stood by her words. I was told not to be argumentive……..no one took my side or even ponmdred it. The topic was closed and the other men again talked about how “bold” they are for Christ……..

    When I left, got on my scooter…..loosened my tie I just said to myself “and Christians want to know why Islam is growing……”

  39. Boxer says:

    Well…..the whole living room erupted into several dicussions….she stood by her words. I was told not to be argumentive……..no one took my side or even ponmdred it. The topic was closed and the other men again talked about how “bold” they are for Christ……..

    When I left, got on my scooter…..loosened my tie I just said to myself “and Christians want to know why Islam is growing……”

    The question you need to ask yourself is if you’re more valuable (to both yourself and your God) as a soldier in the salvation army, or out of it? The way you’re going, you’re going to be executed for desertion or charged with insubordination or something.

    If you really think Islam is a better shot than Christianity, then you can try it out. Their God is same as yours. Even so, I’ve talked to Muslims. The feminist rot is setting in pretty quickly in the mosque. Don’t believe me? Just go check out some of their nasty daughters sometime.

    If you want to stay a Christian, then you need to work with what you’ve got. What would Lenin or Che Guevara do? Would they spout off and ruin their chances to rework the system, or would they keep their traps shut, and go to work where it counts?

  40. squid_hunt says:

    taking these complaints as though they are an attack against his person, nor do they find God getting defensive or taking things personally.

    Man up.

    A woman needs a place to express, complain, vent, et cetera without condemnation. But, if a man is too wrapped up in his own sensitivities,

    I always find it fun that when feminists want to goad men, they always go right for the stereotypical male ego. They can’t help themselves. They destroy their own arguments in the process and admit that they know what they’re peddling is garbage, but every single time. “What a girly man. Can’t even handle an entire culture designed to rub him out of existence.”

  41. squid_hunt says:

    And now I need a refresher on note tags.

    [D: Fixed. You had it mostly right. I just had to switch your brackets to greater than and less than symbols.]

  42. earlthomas786 says:

    They destroy their own arguments in the process and admit that they know what they’re peddling is garbage, but every single time.

    That’s why if their arguement has some sort of response like that…it’s based off their emotional projection and not factual.

  43. Anonynous Reader says:

    squid_hunt just use “” instead of “[” and “]”. Your blockquote was fine otherwise.
    Same applies to italics via the letter “i” and bold via the letter “b”.

    Generally:
    your text or whatever

  44. Opus says:

    Jason’s biggest mistake is speaking to women on serious subjects. Amused mastery is as far as I am prepared to go. I recommend a perusal or viewing of Shaw’s Major Barbara which I am sure must make the same point. Far as i can see Salvationists only want my money and to humiliate me with charity but I love the uniforms.

    Minesweeper advises me of the state of English Law. By chance only yesterday an acquaintance and on the subject of wolf-whistling (obviously an American import) suggested that I would never lower myself to such behaviour and that the only wolf-whistlers were scaffolders and steeplejacks. I had to inform my acquaintance that this was not the case as not only had I wolf-whistled – in my youth – but that in consequence I had acquired a new girlfriend. Of course, these days I see that as terribly Gamma.

    What I really needed and with street-cred to attract girls back in the day was a Scooter.

  45. earlthomas786 says:

    I disagreed and mentioned that comment was for husbands, and nowhere in that verse did it say “respect” women.

    You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Pet 3:7

    Your biggest mistake Jason was your brought up the truth and facts and that hurt her precious emotions which to most women and men…is god.

    Imagine if your retort was this….

    In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 1 Pet 3: 1-2

    ‘Women should submit to men and be chaste and respectful that way men aren’t disobedient to God anymore. Hence churches are failing.’ Would she not quickly point out it says ‘husbands’ and ‘wives’…so that doesn’t apply to her? I’d almost bet she would and her legion of white knights would agree.

  46. squid_hunt says:

    Thank you, Dalrock. Went back and reviewed the post on tags.

    @earl
    Yeah, but you have to stop and listen to what they’re saying and come back with a rational response. The worst thing you can do to a feminist, or any leftist, is take their words at face-value. 1. They hate it. 2. There is no consistency. If you can show that calmly and logically, their arguments fall apart. Which is why they go for the ego, because it’s the easiest way to unbalance a man and then they sit back and laugh while you destroy your own credibility with reactionary ranting.

  47. Embracing Reality says:

    I know quite a number of Muslims who know many, many more. Islam in the US looks more like a social club than a serious religion. The exceptions are the minority of them that are radical and they’re out there, I hear about them. The younger women quickly adapted to the culture and feminism and it doesn’t take much for them to become rebellious. It didn’t take much for Eve to become selfish and treacherous in paradise how much less for Muslim women in Amerika? I know of married Muslim woman who was adulterous, caught in the act with married Muslim man, and used the court system to destroy her husband.

    Islam is no match for feminism or women’s sinful nature.

  48. earlthomas786 says:

    Which is why they go for the ego, because it’s the easiest way to unbalance a man and then they sit back and laugh while you destroy your own credibility with reactionary ranting.

    Hence why humility is important…a person’s ego is often their own worst enemy. If the feminists/leftists focus on that and find that’s your emotional weakness…they’ll win.

  49. earlthomas786 says:

    I know of married Muslim woman who was adulterous, caught in the act with married Muslim man, and used the court system to destroy her husband.

    Islam is no match for feminism or women’s sinful nature.

    Interesting how in a country with Sharia Law how a woman would end up and in a country with Feminist Sharia Law how men end up.

  50. earlthomas786 says:

    Of course, these days I see that as terribly Gamma.

    Heh…good man!

    I don’t fault guys if they want to wolf-whistle the ladies, it’s an easy way to attract a predator.

  51. Boxer says:

    The younger women quickly adapted to the culture and feminism and it doesn’t take much for them to become rebellious.

    That’s been my experience too. The difference between Muslimahs and godless heathen women is that the Muslim girls are better liars. That’s about it.

    The preachers of Islam (Imam, whatever) come over here completely clueless as to the dangers of feminism, and turn a blind eye to almost all of it.

  52. earlthomas786 says:

    I never understood why those Imam’s would call America ‘the Great Satan’. Now, I don’t think I would disagree with them.

  53. Anonymous Reader says:

    squid_hunt
    Yeah, but you have to stop and listen to what they’re saying and come back with a rational response.

    Not really. Most arguments from feminists of both sexes are emotional, revolving around some definition of “fairness”. Baiting with some shred of “rational” argument only to switch to emotional “fairness” that is then redefined is pretty standard.

  54. Anon says:

    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/287560/

    Republicans want to tax the internet to stop porn..

  55. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @BillyS
    Would he be fine with husbands complaining about their wives? I bet not….

    Heh. That’s actually the least of it. Dalrock’s point about pastors who misinform wives that God doesn’t mind their griping actually becomes a lot more amusing when you realize that pastors don’t have a lot of patience for believers — particularly male ones — who complain to them. If you’d enjoy few moments of amusement, there’s a YouTube video pulled from a pastor’s conference some years back called the “Elephant Room” in which a group of high-profile pastors discuss dealing with “wolves” in the church and then end up segueing into a two-minutes’ hate for internet bloggers who have the nerve to call them out on their errors. Matt Chandler was one of the participants, and the best moment probably comes when they include a clip of him reacting to an anonymous e-mail he got slamming one of his sermon choices. He starts out by affirming that he’ll “receive any critique” . . . . before suddenly losing his shit and exploding into a full-on rant against the “silly, pathetic little boys” who take shots while they “hide behind an alias.”

    It’s truly glorious and you can see it here:

    Still, one point of Chandler’s tantrum had me scratching my head: Since he’d already acknowledged the criticism that triggered his public freakout came from an anonymous source, why did he assume that a man must be responsible for it when he ripped into “pathetic little boys?” Is this yet another piece of evidence that today’s modern pastor believes only men are sinners, and that when women do wrong it’s only because a man failed them first?

  56. Swanny River says:

    I agree with Opus, talking to women on serious subjects, and I will add, in a group situation, shouldn’t be done. They should be taught at home and you will not be able to edify or sharpen a woman’s character by engaging her seriously.

  57. Novaseeker says:

    The feminist rot is setting in pretty quickly in the mosque. Don’t believe me? Just go check out some of their nasty daughters sometime.

    Yep, this is certainly the case in North America. In Europe it’s a bit different because some of the Muslims there have self-segregated to a greater degree and live in environments where everyone is Muslim and they keep their girls in control more or less. Of course there’s also plenty who get out of those environments and do the whole western libertine thing, too, but in North America there aren’t really enclaves like there are in Europe, so basically after a generation there is assimilation and the girls act just like any other girls.

    I know two Muslim women where I work, both lawyers — one grew up in Pakistan and was educated here (elite family) and the other grew up here. Both are very, very assimilated and feminist, even though if you ask them they would say that they are Muslim. Same thing is happening with these folks, more or less, as with everyone else who comes to the US — eventually there’s assimilation into the broader culture, and here that’s feminism.

  58. Lost Patrol says:

    DA

    That whole model for Elephant Room is telling. I can only gather that the “seven influential pastors” are the elephants. Did they decide to call themselves that? The implication is that these guys are the biggest thing going and think so themselves. Elephants.

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-macdonald-says-elephant-room-cost-me-some-relationships-68152/

    Chandler does sound a little unhinged during that rant. Criticize a pastoral elephant, get called a “narcissistic zero”.

  59. feeriker says:

    @ Jason:

    The ugly truth that we’re all having to face today is that organized Christianity throughout the West is rotten to its core with heresy and blasphemy. Why? Because very few people who call themselves “Christians” –and this includes many, MANY people in church leadership positions– are truly born again in Christ. Thus they truly are not fully submitted to Him, have not shed their old sinful lives, and are very much still creatures of the World and all of its sinful and erroneous ways. They do not trust Scripture and will not fully absorb its message because, not being genuinely born again, they do not really trust God. Thus the experience you encountered in your study group: a senior “leader” of a church group with “Salvation” in its title who herself demonstrates through word and deed that she might very well not really be saved.

    As for a solution, I’m as stumped as everyone else. What DOES one do when it appears that everyone around you seeks to at best ignore, or at worst pervert the Word of God?

  60. Kevin says:

    God clearly wants us to petition him. But complain? No – post is spot on. Towards God should be gratitude, supplication, pleading even. But whining? Nope.

  61. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    That whole model for Elephant Room is telling. I can only gather that the “seven influential pastors” are the elephants.

    The experiment was in 2012 or so and lasted for only two such meetups. Your link mentions the idea of pastors talking to others of different denominations as one of the goals. The video shows how unprepared pastors are for real debate. They just aren’t up to it, for whatever reasons.

    Having Driscoll as a moderator probably seemed like a good idea at the time….

  62. Swanny River says:

    Feeriker,
    A few of the large SAHM homeschool Trump supporting families let their kids play in a local play called Dr. Suesical. It has really discouraged me, I went with my young son. Kids had makeup like Rocky Horror Show, individualism was lauded and authority mocked and the Cat was played by a teenager who acted as gay as anyone I have ever seen. At least 4 families and over a dozen kids from my church took part. I went on the advice of some blue pill trad cons. Just a play on one hand, but has left me deeply discouragex and estranged from a church that holds the biblical line against females teaching or in leadership.

  63. PokeSalad says:

    Christian life coach

    I laughed. Why didn’t Jesus think of that title?

    ….and I did look to see where this learned individual pastors, so as to make sure I never darken the door of that church….

  64. Spike says:

    feeriker says: February 1, 2018 at 1:07 pm
    ”The ugly truth that we’re all having to face today is that organized Christianity throughout the West is rotten to its core with heresy and blasphemy. Why? Because very few people who call themselves “Christians” –and this includes many, MANY people in church leadership positions– are truly born again in Christ. Thus they truly are not fully submitted to Him, have not shed their old sinful lives, and are very much still creatures of the World and all of its sinful and erroneous ways. They do not trust Scripture and will not fully absorb its message because, not being genuinely born again, they do not really trust God”.

    I’m with you on this one feeriker. Just yesterday I found out that, after months of torturing the Greek, examining church tradition and working out what Scripture says plainly, my church will now have its’ inaugural female preacher. As I’m rostered on to reading and music, I can’t boycott.
    Our pastors called meetings, asked for inputs, examined the Greek, did a comprehensive examination of church traditions…… just to find that Scripture supposedly says what feminists have been saying all along.
    The preacher-to-be is in her late 30s, unmarried, has a string of broken relationships behind her and showed up frequently to meetings loudly proclaiming that she is under Christ’s authority, not any man’s. When she was told (by me) that it isn’t the way God does things and she was still under authority of a man, her father, by the pastor, she left the council bawling like a baby. Her reply was, ”If I was a man, I’d have Christ as my authority. as is, I just get a ”mere husband”.

    I would have to admit that I’m one of those you describe here. I haven’t fully submitted my life to Christ. I haven’t shed my sinful self completely, and I’m still very much a creature of the world. It isn’t through willingness to try. But then again, I’m a man, I think like a man and Scripture effects me the way it should – by making me repent.

    Not so women. They think that Scripture tells MEN to repent, while they themselves are pure, the angels of God’s purification process.

    I’m pissed at this, and I’m thinking that if it becomes persistent practice, then I’m gone.

  65. Gary Eden says:

    A church that gives their women leadership positions and let’s them expound on scripture is gone already.

    Any church that hands authority to a woman is in outright rebellion against God. Fight tooth and nail to cleans the place or shake the dust off your feet.

  66. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Dennis Prager seems to be alluding to Dalrock. At the 24.25 mark, Prager says his most hated Prager U video is the one advocating that men marry.

  67. Lost Patrol says:

    Spike –

    That is a tough situation. A full stride onto the slippery slope, but something we are sure to see with increasing frequency. Is everyone going along with this, or were there any members that broke contact and left over it?

    I would have to admit that I’m one of those you describe here. I haven’t fully submitted my life to Christ. I haven’t shed my sinful self completely, and I’m still very much a creature of the world.

    Can relate.

  68. tkatchev says:

    If you really think Islam is a better shot than Christianity, then you can try it out. Their God is same as yours.

    Certainly not! The Muslim Allah is impersonal, inhuman and amoral. A force of nature. Nothing at all like the Christian God; in fact closer to some pantheistic new-age cultist nonsense than anything resembling Christianity.

    P.S. The Muslims also believe that the Quran is co-eternal with Allah and uncreated. Think a bit on what that really means about their so-called “monotheism”.

  69. earlthomas786 says:

    I’m pissed at this, and I’m thinking that if it becomes persistent practice, then I’m gone.

    I’d say leave ASAP…it’s not going to get any better once she gets in. She isn’t under Christ`s authority either.

    What you are seeing is feminism continuing to worm its way into Christianity. Nice slam by her about a ‘mere husband’…which she doesn’t have by the way.

    They think that Scripture tells MEN to repent, while they themselves are pure, the angels of God’s purification process.

    And as such they are on the wide road to destruction. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

  70. Minesweeper says:

    I like how personable God is in those numbers passages, he was with them in a pillar of fire, rescued them from egypt with amazing miracles, and their sin was to “”publicly”” complain – each man stood at his tent opening etc…

    and so he killed them, I like that. Its good to see God gets pissed when people show public disrespect. The end times are going to be a riot.

  71. Minesweeper says:

    you have to wonder just how many Jews did God kill and how many were killed when he sent surrounding nations in to cleanse them of their sin ? I wonder if anyone has added that up. He is a jealous God after all.

  72. squid_hunt says:

    @spike

    I’m pissed at this, and I’m thinking that if it becomes persistent practice, then I’m gone.

    With all due respect, what is the line in the sand for you? You can read the scriptures and see for yourself what they say. The only question is what you are going to do with your family. Stand by and tolerate it or get out. When your church leaders are openly supporting false doctrine, it’s time to go.

    @freeriker
    Lost people in church congregations have always been an issue. That was the battle of John Edwards’ day. They had instituted a policy called the halfway covenant to allow people that weren’t saved to come into the church until they had eventually taken over. It’s the same process. The embarrassment is that we keep falling for it over and over.

  73. Novaseeker says:

    P.S. The Muslims also believe that the Quran is co-eternal with Allah and uncreated. Think a bit on what that really means about their so-called “monotheism”.

    The Quran also says that there is a “mother of the book”, which is taken to refer to a prototype that underlies all scriptures (bible, quran, gita, etc), and is a *mother*. More strict unitarianism.

  74. Swanny River says:

    Spike’s situation is clearer than mine, his church is rejecting the bible, and using the bible to do so! Mine still toes the line, and I don’t consider leaving, but instead pray and offer my view. However, it is confusing to be in a church that is male-only elders and yet still seems trad con and yet caters to women and can’t stop talking about making them, and minorities more prominent. It’s such a worldly focus, and makes me wonder where they get the starch to hold the line on women teachers. Servant leadership is always coming out of the leaders and congregants’ mouths, so they are comfortable with figure headship. I will not be surprised though if we eventually also decide that the bible was feminist after all.

  75. squid_hunt says:

    I think it’s important to know ahead of time how much you’re going to tolerate. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with staying in the fight. But when the camel is coming in the tent backwards, you have to decide when enough is enough and stick with it. I don’t think you should make threats. I don’t think you should even let people know there is a line. But once that line is crossed, it’s time to close up shop, remove yourself from responsibilities, and leave. And I think openly embracing false doctrine is a pretty good line to have. But I do respect that a man has to make that decision for his own family. He also has to accept the consequences.

  76. 9767 says:

    Spike- if your church has a female pastor it is time to leave NOW and let them know why.

  77. BillyS says:

    I listen to a fair number of radio preachers and most will say “we want to hear from listeners,” but that means “we want to hear positive feedback from listeners” as most of those will also complain about those who write in and don’t completely support what is said.

    I do understand some of their point, just getting told “you suck” is not all that helpful, but few even want to consider that something they have on their show may not be completely accurate. Even a well reasoned email to them will likely get lumped together with an unthinking rant since it isn’t proclaiming everything is wonderful.

    I know that I found feedback on my own higher education teaching to be largely useless that was either of the “you suck” or “best thing since sliced bread” manner. I wanted “here are some things that would have helped more” feedback, but I rarely got that.

    Some ramblings on the topic.

  78. BillyS says:

    Swanny River,

    The church I was in when my wife divorced me had no women in leadership, but the pastor’s wife and others played a major role in truly guiding things. The pastor would not correct or confront any of the ladies, including his own wife, who told me wife to get away from me to be safe. (My exwife made up a lot of stuff and was very unhappy, so they all assumed I was an evil guy of course, ignoring the fact that she actively built her own unhappiness.)

    Just having formal male leadership doesn’t mean squat, unfortunately. The lack of true personal connections outside of meetings is a major reason most men get no support. No one knows them, so no one really supports them at a deep level.

  79. earlthomas786 says:

    When she was told (by me) that it isn’t the way God does things and she was still under authority of a man, her father, by the pastor, she left the council bawling like a baby.

    I had to read that again because it shows how emotionally immature most princesses are today.

    They are so strong and independent that they quickly go to tears the minute a man dares correct them.

    I have to laugh at woman anymore…the minute any little adversity comes their way the majority of the ‘strong, independent’ ones crumble so easily.

  80. Swanny River says:

    Billy S,
    Regarding feedback, I have seen my leadership love to receive feedback critical of them, if it is regarding the hurt feelings of women and minorities. They love to repent of blindness towards them, not dissimilar from Obama’s foreign apology tour for the US.

  81. Handschar says:

    About Islam; 1 John is clear about it:

    Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    The Quran defines Islam, and is the assumed revelation of the “angel” Gabriel to Mohammed. It specifically denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (i.e. pre-existed before being born), therefore that spirit is not from God. It is the spirit of the antichrist. Hence Islam is from the antichrist.

  82. BillyS says:

    That could be true Swany River. I am not a woman, but I would tend to agree that their concerns would get a much more favorable hearing, because reasons.

  83. MattRob says:

    There is a difference in complaining about God and complaining to God. Prayer and supplication can included the latter. Compare the Israelites complaints in Exodus/Numbers versus Joshua’s prayer after their defeat at Ai. Also the Psalms.

    And the good complaints have to do with promises God has made and His own glory, and not our own needs and comfort.

  84. Pingback: Winning her over without a word. | Dalrock

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