Dodgy data.

In my last post I quoted the NY Post/AP article on the number of women who are getting alimony:

How many people get alimony anyway?
Government statistics vary. The Census Bureau says 243,000 people got alimony last year, 98 percent of them women.

But I noticed today that the CNBC article I quoted in the same post gives a figure that is over twice as large:

In 2015, according to the data from the Internal Revenue Service, an estimated 598,888 taxpayers claimed the alimony deduction on their Form 1040, for a total of more than $12.3 billion.

If anything, I would expect the tax data to understate the number of men paying alimony, since some of them could be taking the standard deduction.

Granted, these are slightly different stats, since one is the number of payees (women) and the other is the number of payers (men).  But this would only line up if the average woman receiving alimony received it from more than two men.  It is much more likely that one of these sources is incorrect.  My bet is that the larger estimate is more accurate but still probably understates the real number.

Either way, child support is the defining feature of our modern family model, since it is the replacement for marriage whether or not a wedding has occurred.  Alimony is a vestige of the old system, and aside from some noteworthy exceptions appears to be on the way out.

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45 Responses to Dodgy data.

  1. Pingback: Dodgy data. | @the_arv

  2. DEN1 says:

    “Alimony is a vestige of the old system, and aside from some noteworthy exceptions appears to be on the way out.”

    This is unfair!! What about all the Stay At Home Dads who want to who want to divorce their hard-working wives, for cash and prizes?

  3. buckyinky says:

    Alimony is not included in itemized deductions, but rather is “above the line,” so that even if you claim standard deduction, you still could get the deduction for paying alimony.

    However, in my experience of tax reporting I’ve seen also plenty of divorce settlements that include what is effectively alimony (I.e., no children are being supported), but goes by a different legal name, and therefore would not stand up to an IRS challenge of the same if attempted as an alimony deduction. For this reason, if not for the one Dalrock mentions, I too am convinced tax returns are not a reliable way of knowing how many are paying alimony.

  4. Nick Mgtow says:

    Dear Dalrock, it’s with horror that I notice that Askmen has become Ask manginas, or more politely, Ask feminists men, or women.

    I believe you wrote about men advocating for strong women…

    https://uk.askmen.com/recess/interviews/crossfit-athlete-brooke-wells-talks-dating-muscular-women.html

  5. honeycomb says:

    It appears that th wimminz ™ aren’t reporting it .. it can’t be that hard to get accurate data unless someone is dodging responsibility to pay the taxes.

    Because we know most .. if not almost all .. men would be itemizing it if they were paying it.

    Prove me wrong .. (po’lite’lee asking to prove my error .. if you disagree)

  6. Paul Rain says:

    DEN1: Ah.. the Mike Cernovich lifestyle.

    Apparently this lifestyle is one that is followed by insane rapists. Interesting.

  7. DeNihilist says:

    How’s about this scenario. Was at a home today and the gent there told me about his experience with his recent divorce. Wife is making 2 to 3 times as much money as him, and he readily admitted that she played the “man card” on him. How he would be a pussy if he went for alimony.

    I almost fell when he told me that he ended up buying her out for 400K. This includes child support, but OMG!

    Second guy in 3 months who has told me about buying out of the monthly scourge.

    Seems that these guys will not be part of those stats either.

  8. Random Angeleno says:

    @DeNihilist, your acquaintance was a fool. Shoulda hit her up for the alimony. Shoulda gone 50/50 on the community property.

    I have observed that child support and alimony sometimes get rolled up into the property settlement because property transfers are generally tax free. So the man will sweeten the property settlement in her favor then in exchange pays less to no alimony and/or less to no child support. The IRS tends to look askance at that, but really two people can come to their own agreement without the judge’s help and then submit the agreement to the court. IANAL, do your own due diligence and both of you still need your own attorneys if you choose to pursue this course.

  9. Pingback: Dodgy data. | Reaction Times

  10. patriarchal landmine says:

    “Wife is making 2 to 3 times as much money as him, and he readily admitted that she played the “man card” on him. How he would be a pussy if he went for alimony.”

    a pussy, aka a woman, aka her. but sinking to that level just by taking her money still isn’t likely.

  11. Russell Brand was entitled to alimony from Katy Perry when they divorced (in California, no less.) He declined any alimony.

  12. rocko says:

    @Nick MGTOW:

    Maybe it’s me, but I just don’t see why sane man would date a woman with the perceived capability to rip your weiner with her bare hands.

  13. Poetentiate says:

    Any woman can rip your “weiner” with her bare hands.

  14. Kevin says:

    @Nick

    The modern woman is amazingly stupid – she gains enough unattractive muscle to be in the 99th percentile for women and the 90th or higher percentile for men but still only wants to date a man stronger than her. Thats the same mentality plaguing women everywhere – compete with men then complain you have no options.

    Also I had no idea my HS squat was “world class” for women. But those legs looked better on me.

    I don’t think we should call weightlifters or people who just work out athletes. If your sport is training you are healthy or a wannabe fitness model not an athlete.

  15. Kevin says:

    @Nick

    The modern woman is amazingly stupid – she gains enough unattractive muscle to be in the 99th percentile for women and the 90th or higher percentile for men but still only wants to date a man stronger than her. Thats the same mentality plaguing women everywhere – compete with men then complain you have no options.

    Also I had no idea my HS squat was “world class” for women. But those legs looked better on me.

    I don’t think we should call weightlifters or people who just work out athletes. If your sport is training you are healthy or a wannabe fitness model not an athlete.

  16. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘AM: Do you think men, in general, are intimidated by muscular women?

    BW: Boys: yes. Men: no.’

    LOL

    Good for her to achieve physical fitness…but as we can see it doesn’t take away from their intimidation delusion.

  17. Anonymous Reader says:

    Since only a relative handful of states have lifetime allimony, the numbers of women receiving alimony at the national level surely will fluctuate from year to year. Taking Texas as an example, there is a 5 year window of alimony for any random frivorcee’ during which she will be counted as “receiving alimony”, then she’s done. Since the divorce rate fluctuates, the # alimony recipients must also fluctuate.

    Dalrock is correct: alimony is on its way out. It was the model 50+ years ago when the majority of married women were at home, not in the work force. Now that women can be their own betas it is not needed, and as women begin to receive more money than men it will become imperative to modify or abolish alimony in order to prevent women from supporting men.

    The child support model will continue to be the default for US families; this is a major insight and it has a lot of implications. For one thing, it is congruent with not only AF-BB but AF-Beta Cucks or Open Hypergamy as Rollo refers to it.

  18. Anonymous Reader says:

    Kevin
    The modern woman is amazingly stupid

    The modern woman is solipsistic, projecting her own attraction preferences onto men. This is ignorance that stems from the feminist myth that men and women are exactly the same (except for boobs & babies).

  19. Gunner Q says:

    From Nick Mgtow’s linked article:
    AM: Would you date a man you were much stronger than or do you need someone who’s also fit?

    BW: I could maybe date someone who I could share a bar with, but definitely nothing below that. And again, it’s not anything to do physically. It’s more that it clearly means they don’t spend much time in the gym and probably don’t enjoy it.

    AM: Do you think men, in general, are intimidated by muscular women?

    BW: Boys: yes. Men: no.

    Hello, hypergamy. This is why women can’t work with men: they see you are either totally superior or totally inferior, never “superior at other stuff”. Where are all the good men? Not doing heavy weights for 12 hours a day like you, Barbie Bell.

  20. rocko says:

    AM: Would you date a man you were much stronger than or do you need someone who’s also fit?

    BW: I could maybe date someone who I could share a bar with, but definitely nothing below that. And again, it’s not anything to do physically. It’s more that it clearly means they don’t spend much time in the gym and probably don’t enjoy it.

    AM: Do you think men, in general, are intimidated by muscular women?

    BW: Boys: yes. Men: no.

    The first part, I don’t know what one thing has to do with the other. I am by no means a gym rat, but I do enjoy working out. However, I enjoy it because I find it relaxing. I don’t care if I can’t squat what she squats. I just don’t want to go out with a woman who will take it as a competition.

    And as for the second part, I don’t know where she’s going with this. Personally I am not intimidated by her, as long as she’s not trying to remove my nuts with her bare hands. I just am not attracted to this type of woman. That doesn’t make me a boy, but that’s just my preference. I think female gym rats have the same sense of entitlement, the same sense of superiority and yet the same inferiority complex as college career chicks. They can’t understand that men don’t want to deal with drama, that’s why they go for the demure, feminine type. Plus, that’s a big attempt at insult trying to refer to men as boys, this coming from women who still refer to themselves as “girls”.

  21. rocko says:

    “AM: And the worst?

    BW: Degrading muscles with comments maybe comparing my muscles to those of other males or his. ”

    Wait a minute!? I thought this was the whole point of the whole you go grrl shtick. Trying to be at the same or superior level as men. She should take it as a compliment. Or maybe she doesn’t want to be referred to as a dyke, which frankly is offensive to all the carpet munching ladies out there.

    “AM: What are the things men should know before dating a strong woman?

    BW: It’s important to us! If you’re going to date me, you’re going to understand that I will be training a lot and you have to support and encourage it. Preferably it would be amazing if they were so supportive they would want to spend the early or late hours at the gym with me.”

    Translation: me me MEE! Now what if he is also into this whole competitive fitness thing. Would she support it as well? And what if he has a job? It’s not like he can stay late with her at the gym.

    “AM: Do muscular women only date muscular men?

    BW: Hmm, I wouldn’t say that necessarily — but for me… yes! It’s more important that they enjoy it than how they physically look though. I need someone who shares interests in going to the gym or wanting to be active on vacations, not just for aesthetics. ”

    I think she tried to say appearance doesn’t matter, but yes, it matters. So fellas, if you don’t look like Channing Tatum, no muscly poonany for you

    AM: Have men ever told you you’re “too strong” for them to date?

    “BW: I have never personally gotten that said to my face but I have definitely heard boys say “She’s just too muscular for my type.” Well good because you’re too much of a boy for my type (laughs).”

    And again throwing out the “boy” insult. On the other hand, I hear fitness jocks are really emotional dudes, especially what with taking supplements. Not to mention the possibility of shrinking genitals. Enjoy your “men” missy.

  22. earl says:

    BW: It’s important to us! If you’re going to date me, you’re going to understand that I will be training a lot and you have to support and encourage it. Preferably it would be amazing if they were so supportive they would want to spend the early or late hours at the gym with me.”

    Translation: me me MEE! Now what if he is also into this whole competitive fitness thing. Would she support it as well? And what if he has a job? It’s not like he can stay late with her at the gym.

    That was the part that turned me off. She wears the pants in the relationship and you are the helpmate/simp/punching bag. That’s not the attitude to have if she wants to get married at some point.

  23. earl says:

    AM: Have men ever told you you’re “too strong” for them to date?

    BW: I have never personally gotten that said to my face but I have definitely heard boys say “She’s just too muscular for my type.” Well good because you’re too much of a boy for my type (laughs).

    Yeah the muscles are a cover for her terrible attitude.

  24. Pathfinderlight says:

    It’s very interesting…women often make the mistake of viewing men as terrified when they are indeed disgusted or disinterested. Perhaps it is deliberate to save their all precious god, self-esteem.

  25. Spike says:

    “It’s important to us! If you’re going to date me, you’re going to understand that I will be training a lot and you have to support and encourage it. Preferably it would be amazing if they were so supportive they would want to spend the early or late hours at the gym with me.”

    I like the “you have to…” bit. So generous. So giving.
    Competitive sport for women can very frequently end up as the thing that ruins their lives just as much as a career does. If it becomes an obsession (idolatry), you will not infrequently encounter the woman who has done MMA, Crossfit, Olympic quests or similar, and not considered at all what she is going to do after it, when her more feminine colleagues have rapidly maturing children who are going into families of their own.
    Scripture warns against idolatry for a very good reason.

  26. Jack Russell says:

    Alimony will be abolished when enough women have to pay it and lobby to have it abolished. A friend of mine back in the 90’s married a divorce lawyer. They have been married 30 years and have on grown son. She came from a traditional family. Not quite a unicorn but close.

  27. honeycomb says:

    @ Jack Russell ..
    Alimony will be abolished when enough women have to pay it and lobby to have it abolished.

    I don’t think it would take more than 10% of th wimminz ™ paying alley-moan-ee to scuttle the ship.

  28. rocko says:

    I know we did derail the conversation from alimony time some buff chick demanding her ideal man to some white knights. It may be unrelated, yet it is related at the same time. We go from women doing what they want to demanding their prince charming to demanding alimony. It all fits together.

  29. Frank K says:

    I have a niece who discovered extreme fitness and nuked her marriage because hubby didn’t want to do the same. She then met a fit guy ten years her senior and married him.

    Scripture warns against idolatry for a very good reason.

    And this form of idolatry will let you down long before you kick off this mortal coil. Nothing wrong with exercising of course, but these Olympian types will find that with every year that passes it becomes harder to maintain the form, until eventually they just look old.

    My wife described the niece’s attitude towards fitness as “a religion”. The girl is basically an atheist, so I suppose she finds meaning in being fit, but her body will betray her, as it does for all of us. She can stare into what she believes is the dark abyss of death and realize that being fit like an Olympian means nothing in the end.

  30. Scott says:

    Nick MGTOW-

    From the article you posted:

    “We asked Wells what dating is like for her and how she navigates the stereotype that guys find muscular women too intimidating.”

    Sigh. Men don’t find muscular women intimidating. They find it mannish and silly.

  31. Anonymous Reader says:

    rocko
    The first part, I don’t know what one thing has to do with the other. I am by no means a gym rat, but I do enjoy working out. However, I enjoy it because I find it relaxing. I don’t care if I can’t squat what she squats. I just don’t want to go out with a woman who will take it as a competition.

    Modern women do not understand that a man wants a companion, not a competitor. The equalitarian / equalist fantasy teaches them this and other delusions.

  32. Scott says:

    Modern women do not understand that a man wants a companion, not a competitor. The equalitarian / equalist fantasy teaches them this and other delusions.

    My wife tries to stay in shape, but cannot lift as much, run as fast, or whatever.
    She also doesn’t quote movie lines from weird comedies and sci-fi movies or make obscure references as one-liners
    She is not concerned with “big picture” issues or abstract political or religious constructs but her ability to manage the entire semester of classes taught by our homechool co-op is otherworldly.

    Competition is not a part of our marriage. It would be weird.

  33. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Modern women do not understand that a man wants a companion, not a competitor.

    To which the modern woman will reply:

    “Oh, so you’re afraid that if I compete, I might be better than you? I’m sorry, I didn’t know your ego was so fragile. I didn’t know you were so intimidated by a strong, independent woman.”

    Women demand to compete and be celebrated for it. Until they lose. Then they cry. And the White Knights rush in to protect her from the abusive bully, who thinks he’s so tough for having beaten a girl.

  34. Frank K says:

    To which the modern woman will reply:

    “Oh, so you’re afraid that if I compete, I might be better than you? I’m sorry, I didn’t know your ego was so fragile. I didn’t know you were so intimidated by a strong, independent woman.”

    There’s no saving them from their delusions.

  35. honeycomb says:

    Spike said ..
    Competitive sport for women can very frequently end up as the thing that ruins their lives just as much as a career does. If it becomes an obsession (idolatry), you will not infrequently encounter the woman who has done MMA, Crossfit, Olympic quests or similar, and not considered at all what she is going to do after it, when her more feminine colleagues have rapidly maturing children who are going into families of their own.

    Here is a perfect example ..

    http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2015/11/07/debi-thomas-figure-skater-olympics-oprah-winfrey-network/

  36. Lost Patrol says:

    “Oh, so you’re afraid that if I compete, I might be better than you? I’m sorry, I didn’t know your ego was so fragile. I didn’t know you were so intimidated by a strong, independent woman.”

    These days the best answer may well be “yes, I’m afraid, and fragile and intimidated as you say – so best of luck in your future endeavors and good day to you miss.” (walks away, never looks back).

  37. BillyS says:

    They will continue to find a way to primarily award alimony to “poor abused women,” no matter what. At least they will until until the current system breaks down completely. Too many have too much invested in the idea.

    This is the same reason AI will not set us free. Only upending the system (likely outside anyone’s specific choice, will change things. No silver bullets exist.

  38. earl says:

    Modern women do not understand that a man wants a companion, not a competitor. The equalitarian / equalist fantasy teaches them this and other delusions.

    It teaches them to be a man with boobs. And how to be a sore loser when she discovers the reality that she’s not a man with boobs.

    “Oh, so you’re afraid that if I compete, I might be better than you? I’m sorry, I didn’t know your ego was so fragile. I didn’t know you were so intimidated by a strong, independent woman.”

    Yeah you are either a weak little boy who’s ‘intimidated’ by her…or a mean man when you prove just how fragile her ego is.

  39. Boxer says:

    honeycomb sez:

    She’s left begging for money on youtube ..

    What a sad story that is, and yet another example of the feminist lie in action. Note her pics when she was a teenage girl in the olympics. I have little doubt that she was very attractive into her early 20s. She could have bagged a husband easily, in a healthy patriarchal society.

    Note that her own parents divorced when she was a child, setting the bad example that became the pattern of her life. She has a medical degree that can’t be renewed, and two divorces under her own belt.

    I’m guessing that all the usual idiots were constantly telling her, as a young girl, that if she concentrated on sports and a career, that a loving husband would come along by magic, and she would end up “having it all”. As is usually the case, she believed the feminists, and now she has nothing at all.

    Boxer

  40. Kevin says:

    @honeycomb

    She also became a doctor and one of the highest paid docs in the US – orthopedic surgery. If she is bankrupt she has other problems. She might have been too stupid to be a surgeon and pushed through because of her fame – but she graduated from engineering from Stanford? Who knows. Sadly, she must have some other serious issues because she has all the accomplishments to be an American success story but cannot put the pieces together.

  41. Keith says:

    Just using IRS alimony deduction rates is misleading since it doesn’t take into account women who select a lump sum settlement or property settlement instead of receiving the monthly alimony payment. Likewise, it doesn’t account for women who previously were receiving rehabilitation alimony (3 years or 1/2 the length of the marriage for example) who no longer receive it due to the expiration of the rehabilitation time period. It be interesting to know how many divorced women received lump sum settlements, property settlements or alimony at any point in time since 600,000 sounds low to me.

  42. Opus says:

    Competing in any arena with a female is for a man a hiding-to-nothing. If you crush her effortlessly (the most likely scenario) you are a bully and white knights will come out to attack you. If you lose and the chances are that she has played the pussy card or cajoled some mangina into fawning over her to your disadvantage, then you are pathetic.

    I am equally suspicious of women with STEM degrees. It is not just that one suspects that such women have throughout their lives been given special treatment but that they will so continue to receive it. My little nephew has been dating a woman who has just acquired a first degree in Engineering. She has thus been fast-tracked to a Doctorate most of which will not be academic study at all but the work (presumably largely done by some thirsty or even assigned male colleague) at her place of work. This is what the government decrees and her employers (a well-known company world-wide) would not want to offend the state and presumably they themselves get a kick back for every wanna-be female engineer they employ. I am sure she is a nice girl but from her photos looks like a woman keen to party and I cannot see that in the circumstances my sister will be acquiring what she clearly would very much like, namely a daughter-in-law.

  43. honeycomb says:

    kevin ..
    Sadly, she must have some other serious issues because she has all the accomplishments to be an American success story but cannot put the pieces together.

    Yep .. she has a mental health problem .. it’s called .. you-goooo-girl ™.

    She’s been fired at least twice .. she’s been divorced twice ..

    So my thoughts are when you give someone something without merit on their part (e.g. like th wimminz expect) .. this is the train wreck you witness at the end if the journey when they actually have to be com’po’tent or responsible for the first time. The expectation of the gift they got is it will continue. And when it ends and the payment (i.e. work / family / etc) comes due they fold like a cheap (empty) suit.

    I’m suprised she didn’t land Mr BIG though.

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