It tastes better that way.

The other day I pointed out that part of the benefit of DIY is the feeling of mastery that comes with it.  There is a related benefit, and that is the enjoyment that comes from practicing traditional sex roles.  When your wife cooks something for you, it tastes better.  This is true even if what she cooks is imperfect;  it is an expression of service and love.  Likewise, my wife had wanted a new chest of drawers for a good while.  After urging her for years to pick out one that she liked and buy it, I finally broke down and made her one.

I could have knocked out a bare bones pine chest of drawers and she would have loved it.  But I wouldn’t have loved it, as I would always know I could have done better.  So I made her as nice a piece as I could out of cedar.  It isn’t perfect, but she prizes it more than if I had spent a few grand to buy her the best chest of drawers I could find.  It tastes better because her man made it for her*.

There is a profound beauty in the pleasure we can give to one another as men and women, but our culture despises this very beauty.  Feminism is founded on avoiding two virtues the ugly feminist can’t stand, feelings gratitude and love:

1.  Feelings of gratitude toward men. 

This is the sentiment behind the slogan:

I don’t want to have to depend on a man to…

This twisted feeling is so prevalent that we don’t even notice it.  It feels normal to us that a woman would order her life around never depending on a man (or men), and therefore never risking feeling grateful to a man**.  This is why every unit of our armed forces must be open to women.  The number of women who supposedly benefit from opening up special forces or submarines is so minuscule it isn’t even a rounding error.  But once women are in all units of the armed forces, never again will women suffer the indignity of feeling grateful to men for protecting them.  Never again will they hear the unbearable words Thanks to the men who sacrificed so much for us without feminists chiming in “and women too!”  This is why no unit can be left untouched, even the most elite ones.

2.  Acts of service to others.

Ugly feminists likewise can’t stand the idea of serving others, especially if these acts of service come out of (and/or evoke) a feeling of love for others.  They are so obsessed with not showing Christian love that they make it a priority not to serve their own families.  Cooking, cleaning, and caring for their own husbands and children is a concept which is repulsive to them.  Acts of service to others are in their twisted minds traps to be avoided, and many go so far as to order their entire lives around avoiding showing love to others, especially their families.  These women are so gripped by miserliness they have made it a priority not to show love to their own children.  When they find themselves unable to avoid an act of service and love to their families altogether, they first steel their hearts with resentment, turning their hearts to stone to avoid the feelings of selfless love they live in constant terror of developing.

Even worse, our society is so thoroughly feminist that the values of the ugly feminist have seeped into every nook and cranny of our culture.  This is most easily spotted with the venom directed at women who break the ultimate taboo: women who dare to not only bake for their men, but who do so out of a genuine desire to serve.  Baking for men is in our culture seen as the ultimate trap, one that every woman, even conservative Christian women, needs to be ever vigilant to avoid.  It is the absolute opposite of the strong empowered woman.  Sure, serve your man (if you must!), but beware the trap of baking out of a desire to please your man!  The warnings are everywhere.  Even Pastor Doug Wilson explains that the very idea offends his modern sensibilities in Unleashing Your Inner Fundamentalist:

A fundamentalist woman in a sun bonnet and a gingham dress, who gets a wicker basket to go pick blueberries, so she can bake her man a pie, with a golden crust, the kind he likes, may be a little bit hokey for your tastes, and certainly for mine. But at least she is trying to achieve an effect that the Bible says women should strive for — she wants to be modest and discrete. She is not trying to achieve an effect that the Bible never urges women to strive for, as in “edgy.” Or “provocative, but not too skanky for an evangelical.” She may be playing the instrument badly, but at least she is playing the right one.

The blockquote formatting makes italics in the original harder to spot, but notice the sneering emphasis on pie:  “so she can bake her man a pie, with a golden crust, the kind he likes…”.

And yet, despite the fact that this ugliness thoroughly pervades our culture, the beautiful truth is that nothing is stopping women who want to bless their men from rejecting this twisted sentiment.  Likewise, nothing is stopping men from blessing our women in similar ways.

*There is a caveat to this.  If giving her flowers would result in resentment instead of gratitude, giving her something much more meaningful will be even worse.

**Imagine a man obsessed with ordering his life so that he never had to depend on a woman, never had to suffer feelings of gratitude for women.  We would instantly spot this bitterness for the twisted sentiment that it is.  Yet in women this strikes us as perfectly normal, and even a good thing.  We don’t worry when a woman is gripped by this twisted sentiment, but instead when she is not gripped by it.

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This entry was posted in Beautiful truth, Gratitude, Military, Miserliness, Pastor Doug Wilson, Rebellion, Traditional Conservatives, Ugly Feminists. Bookmark the permalink.

396 Responses to It tastes better that way.

  1. Pingback: It tastes better that way. | @the_arv

  2. Sigma Frame says:

    Feminists are trying to implement a masculine style of power, which is never going to fit right. In doing so, they neglect their natural, God-given feminine power, which is truly where they have the upper hand. They are obviously deceived…

  3. earl says:

    Put another way…the feminist lives a life of envy and selfishness. And they wonder why they are miserable.

  4. Pingback: The New Women’s Power Model | Σ Frame

  5. Sigma Frame says:

    Earl, that’s the reason for the decline in womens happiness over the last couple decades – in a nutshell!

  6. earl says:

    Not to mention holding up victim hood as some sort of heroic virtue. It’s to the point they’ve gone from virtue signalling to victim signalling.

  7. Anonymous Reader says:

    **Imagine a man obsessed with ordering his life so that he never had to depend on a woman, never had to suffer feelings of gratitude for women.

    That is one of the more extreme forms of MGTOW. Rare, but it exists.

    It exists because feminism has attempted to make women into men and they don’t do that very well. So a man can keep his own quarters in order, cook his own food, indulge in his own hobbies, rearrange his own furniture every month, etc. without a woman in the dwelling. Because modern women cannot clean, cannot cook, have few or no interests aside from social media. For sure they can’t bake a pie or even a loaf of bread.

    The only thing a man needs a woman for is sex. She can’t or won’t do any of the other things.

    Sexbots / VR porn won’t be a very good substitute, but they don’t have all the overhead either. More cats and anti-depressants for empowered women!

  8. Brad Matthews says:

    Brother,
    That is excellent, well written, and concisely conveys the sentiment. I try to keep my blog posts on point, but don’t think I could have articulated that as well.

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    Given that “acts of service” is one of the 7 Love Languages, and that a lot of Beta churchgoing men have read that book, it is mildly astonishing to find churchgoing people not putting the parts together. But the sea of feminism we swim in is deep.

  10. Brad Matthews says:

    Also must be deeply connected to why we make the joke “get in the kitchen and bake me a pie.” At heart, we genuinely feel their love when they serve us in love.

  11. Actually, I appreciate Pastor Wilson’s framing. He is correctly acknowledging that while this is uncomfortable for people in our culture to acknowledge, we should try to get past that and acknowledge it as praiseworthy, because it is.

    This is honest and resonates with moderns.

  12. earl says:

    A fundamentalist woman in a sun bonnet and a gingham dress, who gets a wicker basket to go pick blueberries, so she can bake her man a pie, with a golden crust, the kind he likes, may be a little bit hokey for your tastes, and certainly for mine.

    Speak for yourself. I’d marry a woman like that, yesterday.

  13. Cane Caldo says:

    @MtC

    Actually, I appreciate Pastor Wilson’s framing. He is correctly acknowledging that while this is uncomfortable for people in our culture to acknowledge, we should try to get past that and acknowledge it as praiseworthy, because it is.

    This is honest and resonates with moderns.

    He also mocked those women. Gingham-wrapped baker wives could be praised without mockery. Yet he did mock them, and he did so in a way to make mockery seem perfectly appropriate. I suppose to chastise them for the ancient sin of door-mattery.

  14. Splashman says:

    @Cane, I think his motivation for mocking such wives is simply to enhance his standing among his readers (typical churchian wives).

    Note his grouping of old-fashioned elements (sun bonnet, gingham, wicker) with actual wifely virtue (skillfully making a pie for her husband, because she knows he’ll like it). What he means is, in the 21st century, intentionally serving your husband is as out-of-place and “hokey” as wearing a sun bonnet. Churchian wives eat this up.

  15. earl says:

    I suppose ‘mutual’ submission or serving your spouse is pretty much only the husband to wife. Because when you finally reveal what these pastors think it’s never the other way around or looked upon with mockery or contempt.

  16. Geoarrge says:

    And ugly feminists wonder why their poisoning of young women’s minds is demotivating to men.

  17. Splashman says:

    Makes me smile to think that my daughters picked blackberries nearly every day in August and September, and made gorgeous lattice-top pies for our extended family gathering yesterday. I bragged on them to family, and they were proud of themselves.

  18. Sigma Frame says:
    November 24, 2017 at 1:43 pm
    Feminists are trying to implement a masculine style of power…

    What exactly is “masculine” about power that is unappreciative and filled with anger, treachery, resentment, and ingratitude?
    Power with those qualities strikes me as the power that feminists preach and which they (and other Leftists) exhibit: power filled with envy, hatred, bitterness, and cruelty.

  19. PuffyJacket says:

    There is a related benefit, and that is the enjoyment that comes from practicing traditional sex roles.

    I suspect we’ve long passed the point where female “happiness” is (generally speaking) possible inside marriage anymore. I am alluding more to the under-30 crowd, as distinct from the age-group commenting here, who grew-up with Tinder, tattoos, cock carousel, etc. These sluts have largely given up whatever license they once had to happiness inside (or outside) marriage anyways.

    That isn’t a huge concern per se. For marriage to survive (and have survived to where it is today), female happiness was just never relevant. In fact, ANY institution reliant on female happiness long-term is one that will eventually crumble or plunge civilization into violence and chaos anyways.

    The only relevant concern is the extent to which MEN view marriage as a motivating force for the continuance of civilization. That is specifically the problem before us, and one that perhaps cannot be solved so easily, even with happy women.

  20. @Dalrock

    Hope you write an article about #ChurchToo, the Christian version of the #MeToo hashtag on Twitter, about incidents at Church or in Church culture.

    As is typical with these things, some of them are clearly examples of rape and sexual abuse. But plenty are “abuse” of the kind, “the pastor’s wife told me I was dressed too immodestly and I might cause the men to feel lust. I felt ‘shamed.’ #ChurchToo.”

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    What exactly is “masculine” about power that is unappreciative and filled with anger, treachery, resentment, and ingratitude?

    It is a caricature of masulinity, the result of ignorance. Women do not know how to be men – their brains are not wired that way. So the caricature, the cartoon version, is often all they know.

    Now there are exceptions. Because women are generally very good at mimicry, a woman in a large organization who is mentored by a good man will at least have some model in her head, and therefore might not become quite such a tyrant. But she’s still acting a part rather than just being a man so the danger is always there. Such a woman probably won’t be making pie at home, either. Her acts of service to any hypothetical husband will be strictly at the financial level.

    Larger point: this is why it can be a danger for a wife to supervise men in the workplace. Bonus if she earns more net income than her husband. This will likely be the new normal going forward, too.

  22. Bee says:

    Serving a man is sexy. A wife who serves her husband appears sexy to him.

  23. earl says:

    What exactly is “masculine” about power that is unappreciative and filled with anger, treachery, resentment, and ingratitude?
    Power with those qualities strikes me as the power that feminists preach and which they (and other Leftists) exhibit: power filled with envy, hatred, bitterness, and cruelty.

    If you’ve ever seen how male feminists act…that’s the standard of masculinity these females often see. Hence they think that is what masculinity is. The whole idea of toxic masculinity is because the only men that will even put up with hardcore feminists are the toxic type.

  24. earl says:

    Serving a man is sexy. A wife who serves her husband appears sexy to him.

    ‘Choreplay’ works better in that direction.

  25. feeriker says:

    Serving a man is sexy.

    It’s also the second easiest thing for a woman to do (breathing being the first).

    As has been pointed out here and in similar blogs on multiple occasions, serving a husband to his satisfaction comes down to, as one manospherian commenter put it, nothing much more than “keeping his belly full and his balls empty.” In other words, “feed him and fuck him.” It’s that simple. And yes, it’s obviously VERY sexy, without excessive effort having to be put into it.

    That contemporary western women can’t (be bothered to) do something barely a step above simple respiration speaks more to their value (or lack thereof) than that of the men they’re rebelling against.

  26. Anonymous Reader says:

    Bee
    Serving a man is sexy. A wife who serves her husband appears sexy to him.

    That’s why Feminism calls such women “doormats”.

  27. earl says:

    That contemporary western women can’t (be bothered to) do something barely a step above simple respiration speaks more to their value (or lack thereof) than that of the men they’re rebelling against.

    Not only can they not be bothered to do either…they are proud they don’t. Taking pride in actively poking your husband in the eye with those two aspects is a terrible attitude to bring in a marriage and it leads to things like divorce and sons wondering what the point of getting married is.

  28. seventiesjason says:

    My father was a man who liked a little bit of time of “recharge” usually reading in the unfinished basement of our home……….he had a comfy, beatup old chair, a lamp, and he was “allowed” to smoke there………..mom always, always got us boys to leave him alone for a bit on a Saturday or Sunday (especially in winter) so he could read for a few hours (the old man was a voracious reader). It was one her ways to just keep him happy at home. She did her job well too!

  29. “The only relevant concern is the extent to which MEN view marriage as a motivating force for the continuance of civilization. That is specifically the problem before us, and one that perhaps cannot be solved so easily, even with happy women.”

    Wisdom of Puffyjacket.

    THE, as in The, Question that keeps the higher ups awake at night.
    The answer from labour rate participation, to college completion, marriage rates, birth rates is more and more obviously

    Men Are Not Being Motivated
    Which gives a generation at best before the productivity required for the west simply is not there.
    Women will always buy stuff but if the guys dont wanna make the stuff To Buy….well???

    Good work Puff.

  30. And an important element of supervision is knowledge of the subordinates task to give guidance or show when it is off track. Women know enough to supervise manchores?

    So…hunny…should I pull the alternator first or the distributor?
    Is the oil filter left or right threaded?
    Does this look like a firing pin to you?

    Ummm….no. Just no.

  31. earl says:

    That isn’t a huge concern per se. For marriage to survive (and have survived to where it is today), female happiness was just never relevant.

    The simple way to put how marriage works…the husband is the head and the wife is the helpmate that submits. Things like feelings are unimportant in how the structure of marriage works.

  32. Splashman says:

    @Feeriker, I can’t remember whether you’re married or not, and I’m certainly not trying to pick a fight, but sincere question: Would you be satisfied with a wife who did nothing much more than “feed you and fuck you”?

    I’ve heard versions of that cliche many times, and I admit the possibility that it might be true for many men, but it’s not true of me, and my understanding of God (via the Bible), leads me to think that he expects much more of a wife.

    One quick example: due to unfortunate childhood experience, my wife doesn’t learn well, which means that despite 20+ years of marriage she’s almost as ignorant and immature as she was when we married. Necessarily, our relationship is now severely limited, and the education of our children is entirely my responsibility.

    The “feed and fuck” aspects of marriage are certainly very basic and important, but I’m pretty sure you’ll agree that as a prescription for marriage, that cliche isn’t terribly helpful for those attempting to please God.

  33. Splashman says:

    @Earl,

    The simple way to put how marriage works…the husband is the head and the wife is the helpmate that submits. Things like feelings are unimportant in how the structure of marriage works.

    Yes indeed. That’s something I’ve taught my girls: just as God’s creation must be subordinate to God and wives must be subordinate to husbands, feelings must be subordinate to truth. If God says “do this”, then do it, despite your feelings. If God says “this is how marriage should be”, then that’s how marriage should be, despite your feelings. If your feelings fight you when you are doing what God has decreed, your feelings are not from God and must be trained. And feelings can indeed be trained!

  34. Pingback: It tastes better that way. | Reaction Times

  35. The Question says:

    @ Dalrock

    “It feels normal to us that a woman would order her life around never depending on a man (or men), and therefore never risking feeling grateful to a man**.”

    But that brings up another problem – what does that type of woman have to offer a potential husband? How does her presence in his life benefit him? Never depending on a man means she is engaging in things that the man would normally do for her in order to make him superfluous. And chances are, her efforts to avoid depending on a man means she has less time to, theoretically, work on skills and knowledge that makes her attractive to a man.

    This explains why there is so much social engineering intended to “teach” men what they should find attractive in a woman, chief of which is the perceived lack of need for him in her life.

  36. earl says:

    This explains why there is so much social engineering intended to “teach” men what they should find attractive in a woman, chief of which is the perceived lack of need for him in her life.

    I’ve always wondered why nobody ever asks these women who have a 156 point bullet list of what they want in a man…’What do you bring to the table to attract that sort of man?’

  37. Robert What? says:

    Women are completely dependent on men. Either an individual man such as their husband, or the anonymous producer men who support them via confiscatory taxes. (Taxes spent both on direct government programs or phony make-work jobs like HR.) Feminists greatly prefer the second way because that means never to have to say thank you to a man.

  38. Nate says:

    Sheesh. Before too much longer, holding the door for women is going to be considered rape. There are young women who will refuse to walk through a door if a man held it open for them, or if they did walk through they would absolutely refuse to even acknowledge the mans existence, less thank him.

  39. rocko says:

    “The only thing a man needs a woman for is sex. She can’t or won’t do any of the other things.”

    And even then, giving a man oral sex is a no brainer. To quote the late Lauren Bacall, all women have to do is put their lips together and blow. Seriously, the other day I saw a copy of Cosmopolitan at a Dollar General with an article on a man’s G spot, in view of little girls no less. I actually wanted to chuckle. That’s easy. The G Spot is in the tip of a man’s penis.

    Coming to think about it, I get two things out of this. One, even for sex, men are simple. They don’t need 50 Shades of Grey antics or Kama Sutra seminars. They only need a feminine woman who’s attractive and not a bitch. And two, even during sex, it’s the man doing the work.

    But yes, today’s women are worthless for other things other than sex. And yes, Mr Weinstein might be a depraved pig, but can you blame him? The man took what he wanted from these women because it’s all these women were good for. And these women were willing to go to a man’s bedroom for a “job interview.” If this is the moral education parents are willing to give their princesses, might as well encourage then to get in that stranger’s rusty old van with the “free candy” sign.

  40. Heresolong says:

    “Women know enough to supervise manchores?”

    My buddy’s wife constantly does this. Asks him to fix something and then stands around telling him how to do it until he walks out of the house and goes to the shop for peace and quiet. I ask him how he can stand it and he replies “stand what?”. He’s basically tuned it out. He just stops working if it starts to bother him. I’d tell her to shut the f$$k up if she were my wife. Or course that may be why he is still married and I am not. Not sure which of us is happier. 🙂

  41. rocko says:

    @seventiesjason

    That’s a pretty interesting story. I doubt men get time to recharge nowadays. I remember being engaged and never having time to recharge. My ex was always coming up with crap for us to do, on the pretext of me never paying attention to her. And then I saw my ex father in law. He would wake up early, did his chores and maintenance, then he would sit down in the couch and watch TV. Every now and then, I would buy a six pack of beer and I would sit down with him and we would drink and talk for hours. He was a diesel mechanic for years before he went on disability. And boy did he go on disability. He couldn’t walk without a cane or walker.

    Then it hit me. This man never had time to recharge. His wife and daughters always pestered him with orders and requests. As a result, he just gave up and accepted his destiny. And yet the women in his life were never happy. They crippled him, figuratively and literally. And I saw my future in his eyes. So I broke up my engagement and went MGTOW, if not by choice.

  42. Boxer says:

    And I saw my future in his eyes. So I broke up my engagement and went MGTOW, if not by choice.

    That was a wise decision!!

  43. info says:

    @Take the Red Pill
    Its feminist perception of masculine power. They can only imagine tyranny. To them there is no such thing as a Patriarchy that governs with Wisdom and Justice that God himself is the model of. It may also be projection on their part since if they were in that position they can only be tyrants.

    Despite how Christians modelling themselves on Christ is modelled on perfection itself in terms of responsible masculine authority.

    Also failing to hold women responsible in the cuckservative model of “headship theology” where the wife’s sin is the husbands fault leads ironically to tyranny since he is forced to “reign her in”. Those satanic contructs is what feminism also feed off of.

  44. info says:

    @Nate
    Then isn’t this an opportunity for men to screen out those women? Doing those “sexist” things is one way to know what woman to reject.

  45. earlthomas786 says:

    I dont doubt it has happened but FWIW everytime I’ve held a door open for women they’ve said thank you. Get offended over something as little as that is probably close to mental illness.

  46. Allen says:

    Part of the problem lies within ourselves. Yes, women can be exceedingly ungrateful, but how many times as men have we done something that deserves gratitude? Or, how many times have we failed to show gratitude towards the women in our lives? I am always mindful that I must show gratitude for the things my wife does solely for me, which in turn keeps her mindful of showing gratitude towards me. You can only get what you give.

    I made a bassinet for our first grandchild recently, and even if I must toot my own horn it was a thing of beauty. My wife and daughter-in-law gave me the gift of tears for my efforts. It moved me deeply.

  47. Splashman says:

    I always wondered what bile tasted like. Now I know.

  48. feeriker says:

    @Splashman

    Looking back over my post, I probably should have added some qualifiers. No, certainly FH2 are not the ONLY ways to make a husband and make him happy, and yes, there obviously is more to it than that.

    HOWEVER, if a wife can’t or won’t do these two brainstem-simple things, then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in expecting her to be able to do anything more advanced. She’s useless as a helpmeet.

  49. Oscar says:

    @ feeriker

    It’s an oversimplification. It’s hyperbole that makes a point. It’s also a good start.

  50. Gunner Q says:

    Splashman @ 5:26 pm:
    “Would you be satisfied with a wife who did nothing much more than “feed you and fuck you”?”

    Most high-level introverts would say yes. We get married to have our needs met when we come home from the computer lab or workbench, not because we’re excited at the prospect of raising lots of kids or conversing with the female mindset. How horrible that we’re so easy to please.

    And yes, I now understand it really is horrible. What woman volunteers for getting limited male attention from an unsexy husband because he’s preoccupied with cerebral interests? That’s why civilization is inherently unstable, right there.

  51. feeriker says:

    My buddy’s wife constantly does this. Asks him to fix something and then stands around telling him how to do it until he walks out of the house and goes to the shop for peace and quiet.

    He should make her hands cash the checks her mouth writes.

    Whenever my ex-wife did that crap I would hand her the tools, tell to take over (since I obviously didn’t know what the fuck I was doing, right?), and walk away. Without fail and within minutes I’d be on the receiving end of tearful, groveling, apologetic begging for me to come back and carry on, after which she would STFU.

    Unfortunately, the lessons seldom stuck. I once pulled over onto the shoulder of a narrow, two-lane mountain road, with a 1000-foot drop below the shoulder, after she had started backseat driving. I told her “move over behind the wheel. You’re taking it from here, and I’d better not see you do less than 45 miles per hour.” To say that she freaked out would be the understatement of the century, but for the next hour until I got us to our destination, the only sound in the car was the humming of the engine.

  52. Dave says:

    Christian teachers of today are responsible for the triumph of feminism in the church, and I am hopeful that God will sweep them out of His Church soon enough.

    14 Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
    Isa 9:14-16 (KJV)

  53. They Call Me Tom says:

    Earl said: “’ve always wondered why nobody ever asks these women who have a 156 point bullet list of what they want in a man…’What do you bring to the table to attract that sort of man?’”

    Deep down, I really believe that those lists are a defence mechanism for their ego. Sure the lists serve as an excuse as to why they aren’t hitched. But the lists are also really a sort of fabricated evidence; that a woman has such high marriage market value that she needs a long list to thin the herd pursuing her. Maintaining that delusion is the primary inspirational impulse for not only having a long list, but for adding an item or two each year.

    Afterall, how long were girls’ lists in high school? How long is the list of a woman in her forties?

  54. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Splashman: feelings must be subordinate to truth. If God says “do this”, then do it, despite your feelings. If God says “this is how marriage should be”, then that’s how marriage should be, despite your feelings. If your feelings fight you when you are doing what God has decreed, your feelings are not from God

    That last part is a tough hurdle for Christian women. Whenever they feel anything, they think it’s the Holy Spirit talking to them. Their feelings are what God has decreed. The Holy Spirit told them so.

  55. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Earl: I’ve always wondered why nobody ever asks these women who have a 156 point bullet list of what they want in a man…’What do you bring to the table to attract that sort of man?’

    She would reply:

    1. I’m awesome.

    2. I’m amazing.

    3. I’m strong.

    4. I’m independent.

    5. I’m sassy.

    6. I’m kick-ass and bad-ass.

    7. I’m not just smart. I’m whip smart, crazy smart, and even scary smart.

    8. I’m beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

  56. Splashman says:

    @Feeriker,

    HOWEVER, if a wife can’t or won’t do these two brainstem-simple things, then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in expecting her to be able to do anything more advanced. She’s useless as a helpmeet.

    100% agree.

  57. Splashman says:

    GunnarQ, funny you should mention that. I’m king of the introverts, and I married the queen of extroverts. (INTP + ESFJ — how’s that for a recipe for marriage success? Yes, I was a complete moron in my 20’s).

  58. feministhater says:

    Imagine a man obsessed with ordering his life so that he never had to depend on a woman, never had to suffer feelings of gratitude for women. We would instantly spot this bitterness for the twisted sentiment that it is.

    You don’t have to imagine, we are here, we are now. The only difference here is the lack of choice. There are no women to do things for us that we would feel gratitude for… it is a forced action by women that has forced a growing amount of men to do that very thing – getting on with life without the need for a women. I suppose you would call it bitterness, don’t care though.

    I prefer a life without the hassle that women bring, releasing me from any obligation to go out of my way to find out why I need a woman so that I can feel gratitude for her.

  59. PVW says:

    So much truth in this essay.

  60. Bee says:

    @Splashman,

    Spend some time reading some of the Deadbedroom Forums. Also, some of these unfortunate guys comment here and at Biblical Gender Roles. They would be much happier with improving to the foundational basics of FH & FH.

    If a woman does not want to have frequent sex, she should not agree to get married.

  61. Sigma Frame says:

    Take The Red Pill,
    It is masculine power in the sense that it is done with forceful coercion under threat of discipline, punishment, or at the extreme, death. The ‘anger, treachery, resentment, and ingratitude’ are the elements revealed in the absence of female power, which is essentially comprised of the opposing virtues.

  62. jimmy says:

    anyone care to comment on the lost argie sub commanded by a woman?
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/22/americas/argentina-missing-submarine/index.html

  63. Sigma Frame says:

    Feeding and fucking are necessary, but not sufficient. The problem lies in the fact that women aren’t doing the necessary basics. The solution? …too complicated to cover in a comment.

  64. earlthomas786 says:

    If a woman does not want to have frequent sex with her husband , she should not agree to get married.

    In this day and age you have to include that. It’s not that women aren’t having frequent sex…it’s that many are willing having frequent illict sex and rebelling from licit sex.

  65. earlthomas786 says:

    The problem lies in the fact that women aren’t doing the necessary basics.

    It’s really about them choosing a rebellious path instead of submitting to their husband.

    Those two things are basic, but they reveal where her heart is at. The more complicated answer is all her actions to her husband.

  66. earlthomas786 says:

    @Red Pill

    Yeah I know their go tos are their looks (which fade and are more in the eyes of the beholder) and negative personality traits.

    Imagine a guy putting something like that down on a resume…you know what would happen. The employer would ask what skills and merits you’ve done and acheived.

  67. seventiesjason says:

    @rocko

    My mother had a temper that could make the devil reconsider who was really bad..I bore the brunt of it a few times, and I do know my father had to endure it pretty hard at times….however…..she knew my dad DID work very hard all week (construction worker / foreman) in the rain, the cold, the dirt and snow……she also knew that he provided the majority of the income, and for the first ten years of their marriage he was the sole income. I do give her credit where it is due. Dad would quietly go into the basement, and my mom “just knew” to keep me and my brothers occupied and to not let us disturb him. It was usually on weekend when our family was “at home” and there were not pressing matters to do. My father was never a TV watcher (in fact, our family watched very little TV). He liked to read. He was a loner, and didn’t need a “man cave” or a bunch of “guys friends” to affirm his manhood. Suddenly he would reappear at dinner…..and he play with us, or rough-house a bit after…….

  68. Jeff Strand says:

    “A fundamentalist woman in a sun bonnet and a gingham dress, who gets a wicker basket to go pick blueberries, so she can bake her man a pie, with a golden crust, the kind he likes, may be a little bit hokey for your tastes, and certainly for mine.

    Speak for yourself. I’d marry a woman like that, yesterday.”

    I DID marry a woman like that, and have never regretted it. One who willfully, consciously, and explicitly submits to my headship and leadership of the family unit in all things. Who is content to handle the domestic sphere, and who, when it comes to the marital act, makes herself “always available” to her husband…and does so happily and cheerfully. She follows my lead on pretty much everything, so she is now vehemently anti-feminist and anti-Liberal. She believes in traditional values, and models these values to our children.

    Every election cycle, she asks who I plan to vote for, and she mirrors that (so in effect, I get to vote twice). She says she can’t imagine ever voting contrary to her husband, which would effectively cancel my vote. She says she assumes I will vote based on what’s best for the whole family, so how could she ever disagree with that choice?

    She obeys me in all things, even in decisions that effect her personal healthcare and medical risks. It may indeed be “her body”, but the way she sees it, as a married woman it is no longer “her choice”. (Of course, to be clear, she has always been pro-life). It is my choice as the head of the household. And I take that responsibility seriously. And once I decide, she does not question it.

    We Dalrockians had a long debate a few weeks ago on one comment thread, on whether guys should risk marriage at all. Many disagreed with me when I said that while no man should ever marry a feminist (DUH!), marriage to a NAWALT should be recommended. My advice was: find a NAWALT like my wife, and marry her. They are out there.

    Some said it’s impossible for the average guy to do this, and the only reason I was able to pull it off is that I’m Alpha AF. True, I’m an Alpha, and have been for many years. But I sure wasn’t back in high school! Just as women’s physical attractiveness is highly controllable, so is a man’s alphaness. During my early to mid 20’s, I BECAME an alpha. And I didn’t have the advantage of the manosphere to help me along! (this was the 90’s)

    Young men reading this, don’t give up. Work on yourself, build up those Alpha traits. Make yourself both a “good catch” and highly sexually desirable to women. But vow to NEVER wife up a typical, ruined, American feminist-contaminated bitch. Actively seek out a NAWALT, marry her, and raise a family with her. Let it be your little bubble of love, stability, peacefulness, and SANITY amidst the evil and craziness of this feminist-ruined culture. Live your life and raise your family the way God intended.

    Remember, I may be Alpha,,,but I’m not a god (lower case “g”, lol). That I did it means you can do it too. Remember the old saying: “What one man has done, another can do.”

    Good luck to you!

  69. seventiesjason says:

    There are not enough NWALT women out there for every supposed “alpha guy”

    And men who proclaim they are alpha, usually aren’t. They just happen to thump their chest the loudest.

  70. feministhater says:

    For every one man who marries this so called NWALT 10 men must go without.

    https://patch.com/illinois/crystallake/cary-man-committed-suicide-mchenry-jail-cell-source

    I will live my life without a wife. The bullshit is simply not worth it. I will not be committing the same mistake as the gent above. I value my finite life.

  71. Oscar says:

    OT, but always relevant:

    Science confirms the obvious. Again.

    “Scientists have drawn on nearly 1,000 brain scans to confirm what many had surely concluded long ago: that stark differences exist in the wiring of male and female brains.

    Ragini Verma, a researcher at the University of Pennsylvania, said the greatest surprise was how much the findings supported old stereotypes, with men’s brains apparently wired more for perception and co-ordinated actions, and women’s for social skills and memory, making them better equipped for multitasking.” ~ Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/02/men-women-brains-wired-differently?CMP=share_btn_fb

    This isn’t news. Brain scans proved this 30 years ago. And, if you live in a place I like to call Reality, you’ve known this all along.

  72. Jeff Strand says:

    “And men who proclaim they are alpha, usually aren’t. They just happen to thump their chest the loudest.”

    I used to think this way. And that, plus natural modesty, kept me from considering or labeling myself an alpha. But when I described my marriage, as well as my prior dating experiences when I was single, everyone criticized me by saying “OF COURSE you think there’s NAWALTS out there – you are clearly very Alpha, and so you can have one. Your average Joe doesn’t stand a chance.”

    So I thought about this, and decided there was some truth there. I can’t let my fear of appearing to come off as “bragging” cause me to be disingenuous. Just as matter of the facts, based on how we in the manosphere define an Alpha, I fall into that category. (Or perhaps a “greater beta”, which I define as guy with the alpha traits, but one who is actually husband material. As opposed to true alphas like Tommy Lee or Jesse James or Kid Rock, who can have a different woman every night of the week…but aren’t going to able to make a marriage work and therefore are not husband material)

    So please understand, when I say I’m Alpha (or a greater beta), I am not trying to brag. I am just stating the facts as they are. Because it may have consequences – perhaps my critics from the last discussion on this topic were in fact correct in saying that you NEED to be an alpha (or greater beta) in order to pull off the feat of locking down a true NAWALT like I did. I admit that’s a possibility.

    Food for thought…and discussion. I find these discussions fascinating because, while me and my wife are set, I worry about marrying off my daughters. They’re still young for now, but the wife and I are making a true effort to raise them to be NAWALT’S, just like their mom. We are hopeful this will enbale them to someday marry greater beta’s as well. We won’t know if our plan worked until many years from now, which is frustrating.

  73. jimmy says:

    Guys im a young guy in my 20s, I want a wife and kids. What am i supposed to do?
    1. Get married , have wife steal my kids and money.
    2. Just be alone for the rest of my life, with no sons to carry on my name.
    wow what a great choice….

  74. Jeff Strand says:

    Jimmy,

    Read my post above at 11:11am. There is a third choice, that you neglected to mention. It is the path that I chose, and I highly recommend it.

  75. feministhater says:

    You won’t be getting married in your twenties anyway jimmy. Do you belong to a heavily traditional community or are you some average Joe? If you are the latter, you will not be getting married anytime soon, you will not be getting married to a virgin or even a woman with one or two partners. If you still want to get married, your wife will be in the 28 to 35 age range, with at least 10 partners previous to you, you will get some sex but once you’re married, that will be limited and then eventually completely cut off. You will most likely either live under the sword of the divorce system and duluth model for domestic relations or be divorced. Don’t earn a lot of money, for the more you earn, the more income will be imputed to you upon your divorce, it will not be lowered if something happens to you, you will be stuck making court appearance after court appearance and your chances of relief are slim to none. Your children will be removed from you and used as a bargaining chip. You don’t pay enough, you don’t get to see them, it’s that simple.

    Yes, most men want families but it simply isn’t available to the average Joe. Learn to do without.

  76. Boxer says:

    Jimmy:

    What Jeff says is true. There are women out there who are less risky. Many of the married bros (including the author of this blog) are married to women who have not divorced them, and don’t seem likely to.

    Look for girls who aren’t “flashy”. The nice girls are sorta invisible to the dudes, and they’re almost always overshadowed by the attention whores and other hoez, who are flashing titties at you and twirling their hair in your direction. If you’re at uni, you can sometimes find marriagable women studying serious disciplines (i.e. chemistry, math, english grammar (not literature), physics, etc.). Serious women never study sociology, wimminz studies, or any ethnic nonsense. If you’re not at uni, then look around when you’re out for a girl who is pretty but not flashy, not sporting lots of tats and piercings, and dressed modestly. She won’t be wearing lots of makeup. Guarantee you’ve passed at least five of these girls this week without noticing them.

    Do not go to church, temple, mosque or whatever, and buy the bullshit from any women who have recently “found god” after various “mistakes”. These women camouflage themselves to look like women in the first set, and they’re very good liars.

    Once you meet a woman, ask about her family. Any woman who talks shit about her parents or grandparents is worthy of an immediate eject. Take things slow and good luck to you.

    Boxer

  77. seventiesjason says:

    So being an “alpha” or “greater beta” (first time I have ever heard this term) is now defined by the man-o-sphere?

    Which means??????

    The real leaders I admire, have noticed, want to work for, want to follow and actually want to emulate: have intense humility, are well rounded, have the ability to listen, like you for what you are and yet push you to achieve better / strive for more. They work hard. They don’t need female approval, and they may not even be the “best looking” guy in the room and they don’t have to define their manhood by the size of their penis, how many yards they ran in high school football, how many girls they dated, nor the need to tell you how smart they are. Every “alpha” I have ever met in word only has to tell me how smart they are, what a “leader” they are, and drop their IQ to me within ten minutes of meeting them. They’re smug like a Roman merchant of those old times.

    I prefer actions in a “wellness” scope that define this, and a real alpha may never be recognized for what they do, but they don’t care……and yet many still somehow get a really decent wife

  78. Boxer says:

    So being an “alpha” or “greater beta” (first time I have ever heard this term) is now defined by the man-o-sphere?

    Which means??????

    As a mathematician, I like things to be well defined, so that I know what people are talking about. I’ve thus been asking these questions for years, and have never had an answer. (Though SirHamster has attempted, with long, dull screeds, pages and pages long, to define such stuff – he tells me I’m a “gamma” so I suppose that must be true).

    Basically these greek letters were invented so that we could sound scholarly (same reason mathematicians use them) and they mean things that are subjective and quite fuzzy. This heuristic can be very helpful in explaining things to absolute newguys, but they aren’t useful to people who like to write carefully and speak precisely.

    Boxer (King of All Gamma Males)

  79. Jeff Strand says:

    Jimmy,

    I agree with a lot of Boxer’s post at 12:20pm. He gave you some good advice there.

    Also, be completely unapologetic in your decision to marry ONLY a nawalt. Stick to your guns and kick to the curb any “independent, empowered, feminist” type chicks. Embody Alpha traits and confidence, and let those traits flow. Women will be attracted to that. Don’t apologize for who you are, but keep working to improve yourself.

    Date a lot of different chicks – a lot of this is a number’s game. Also, keep in mind that the right girl may not be FULLY nawalt at the time you are dating her. My wife has become much more NAWALT over the years of our marriage, as she accommodates herself to become the kind of wife she can see that I want. It would have been unrealistic to expect her to show NAWALT traits (like wifely submission) to the extent she has them now back when we were dating. So keep that in mind. It’s sufficient if you can see glimpses of the NAWALT traits while courting, she’s mentally stable, NOT a feminist, and you feel you will be able to mold and form her as the marriage continues. Make small, discreet attempts to “redpill” her while dating and see how she reacts. If she agrees with you that’s fantastic, but at the very least you just want her to be open to such ideas…and not dismiss them out of hand.

    If this is the case, you have greatly improved odds of a happy and successful marriage, as compared to the average shlub. Nothing in this life is a guarantee, but you can arrange the odds as much in your favor as possible.

  80. Jeff Strand says:

    “So being an “alpha” or “greater beta” (first time I have ever heard this term) is now defined by the man-o-sphere?

    Which means??????”

    Not gonna get suckered into this. If you are commenting on a manosphere site and claim not to be familiar with the term “alpha” or “alpha male”, then I can’t help you.

    And as far as a “greater beta”, which I am more willing to admit you may be unfamiliar with, I gave you the definition in the post where I first mentioned it. I literally explained it in the same sentence where I first brought it up.

    Assuming you can read and understand the English language, there’s nothing more I can do for you beyond that.

  81. seventiesjason says:

    Jeff, pardon my “chump” tendencies…..but you were the one who brought it up. Not me, so as for you “getting suckered into this” that’s you

  82. seventiesjason says:

    Your advice above told the guy to “date lots of women” and the problem men like you have is that you just assume that all a guy has to do is go right up to a woman and “ask her out” and for most men……..that isn’t reality. It isn’t. I know a guy like you never had this issue.

  83. Jeff Strand says:

    Seventies Jason,

    I disagree that all the readers of the manosphere in general (or Dalrock’s site specifically) are losers who can’t get dates with women. Maybe that is the case with you, and you’re projecting.

    Doesn’t matter. We will agree to disagree. I don’t think getting women to go on dates with you is a Herculean task. I had no problem getting women to go on dates with me in my single days, esp in my mid to late 20’s when I was more mature and had some money to spend. Neither did the other guys within my circle of friends – everyone either had a steady gf or was dating chicks.

    But maybe I just hung out with all super-Alphas? Either that, or getting dates isn’t as hard as you are implying it is for a young man to do. You can choose which of these two possibilities is more likely.

  84. seventiesjason says:

    Yeah okay (lol). I’m a loser (LOL). I just wasn’t born with good looks, that is what I have discovered at the tender age 47. Better luck next time right? There is no marriage and dating in heaven anyway 😉

  85. feministhater says:

    Nothing comes from engaging with Jeff, do not do so. Tell him to F off.

  86. seventiesjason says:

    Remember that meme? The pic of the photogenic looking dude? Yeah, and it says “You want to date women, just go up to her and say hello. Works for me”

    A real truism in this world

  87. Jeff Strand says:

    Let me add that my heyday, in the 90’s, was before internet dating took off. So today it is even much easier! (Remember, I’m just talking about going on dates…not finding the “right” girl)

    Let me give an example. Even in my early 20’s, before I began to have some financial success and so was pretty much broke (although solvent and could pay my rent), I did plenty of casual dating. Again, pre-internet, here’s what I would do: go out to dance clubs alone, where I would meet girls by dancing with them and/or buying them a drink. I would get their phone number, and if things went really well and there was chemistry, there might be some making out in a dark corner of the club. But nothing more – I wouldn’t try to take them back to my place nor have sex with them.

    A day or two later, I’d call them and ask them out to lunch. It would give me a chance to see the chick without her being all gussied up, and without her posse of girlfriends. Most agreed to the date, because as only a lunch date there was very little pressure. Often, it would go no further than lunch and I wouldn’t see her again. A couple times, I dated the girl for several weeks or months. But none became a serious girlfriend. I kept this pattern going for about a year to a year and a half (again, this was in my early 20’s…shortly after finishing college)

    Looking back, I enjoyed those lunch dates and meeting the variety of different girls that this entailed. Now I know you’ll say the girls scored a free lunch. I don’t care, I didn’t mind buying their lunch at a casual restaurant (and no bar tab, since it was lunch! Genius, right?) For me, it was all part of learning the art of interacting with the opposite sex and becoming comfortable around them.

    (I hadn’t had much experience, having gone to an all-boys high school, and then to an engineering-focused uni that might as well have been same sex, as the guy-girl ratio was like 10 to 1). So I knew I had a lot of catching up to do when it came to interacting with women in a romantic/sexual way…and my chosen method of meeting girls while out clubbing followed by lunch dates was just what the doctor ordered. A lot of my later success with women and my process of becoming alpha (from my mid to late 20’s) really began with my “lunch date phase” of my early 20’s.

    Finally, I know you’ll object that you’re probably not gonna find your NAWALT at a nightclub. I agree! I’m not saying you will. I’m just saying that it was a way for generating lots of dates for myself. Which not only helped build up my confidence, as I explained above, but also helped me began to learn about what kind of girls were the type to “float my boat” and which weren’t. Remember, “generate lots of prospects” is a key foundation to the whole strategy of marrying well to a NAWALT.

    YMMV. These were just my experiences. Again, I’m sure my experiences would be quite differnt had I been born 20 years later, given the ubiquity today of Internet dating. But it’s all just food for thought.

  88. feministhater says:

    Blah blah blah, filed under ‘DGAS’. I don’t doubt you read the article above but nothing is worth going through that hell. Done and dusted.

    But but but, you just have to vet better and take her on dates en sheeit!

  89. Jeff Strand says:

    “Yeah okay (lol). I’m a loser (LOL). I just wasn’t born with good looks, that is what I have discovered at the tender age 47. Better luck next time right? There is no marriage and dating in heaven anyway 😉”

    Sorry if I implied you’re a loser. I didn’t mean it and take it back.

    Just got frustrated in trying to express my strong opinion (based on lots of experience of not just myself, but my whole large circle of friends) that it’s not necessary for a guy to to be way above average looking in order to get girls to go on a date with him.

    Hope there’s no hard feelings, my friend. I enjoy the discussion and I don’t want to make it personal. I’m happy to hear other’s opinions, even when they disagree with me.

    Cheers!

  90. seventiesjason says:

    FH, it’s not that I want to tell him that…….in fact, I have not wanted to tell anyone that in a real long time. My personal opinion here. Let me say that again. My personal opinion here.

    Him trying to help in these matters actually will cause more frustration for many. I will accept that he genuinely does want to help. Hey, at least he isn’t pushing a “bootcamp” and “books” and “v-logs” and for just a small donation….”you too will become a real alpha-upper-gamma-beta” or whatever.

    The point is. In the end. A man. A Christian man pretty much has to have it all together. He has to be good looking, led a billion to Christ, fed the masses, been on “important” mission trips, and rescued little babies from earthquakes and floods…….he hasn’t done, can’t do that, or won’t do that? Oh, just be really good looking, tell sort-of-dirt-jokes, put down people around you.”

    This is what I have seen in the church. Guys who could have five children, be screwed to the wall in alimony / child support……..still will get the dates because he’s” so funny / so cute / so misunderstood”

    I find it funny that the beer and fart jokes and put downs “are not funny anymore” to women when food has to be put on the table. Children need to be raised and she suddenly realizes that she cannot change him

    Sure, a bit extreme with my look here….but in the end, at my age……..I see very little “holiness” in the choice of men (and make no mistake Alpha guys…..she CHOOSES, you don’t) they decide to marry and date are nothing like she proclaims on Sunday. Nothing. It’s just the “worldly” dating scene cloaked in fake Christianity and its really, really ugly and drives people who are saintly, striving and desire to be set apart people AWAY from church, as it should.

  91. Tarl says:

    Incidentally, it is a huge red flag if your woman bakes for her coworkers, especially if she never gives you any of it.

  92. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Oscar: men’s brains apparently wired more for perception and co-ordinated actions, and women’s for social skills and memory, making them better equipped for multitasking.

    Note the obligatory pro-woman spin. The article acknowledges that men and women’s brains are different, then concludes that women’s brains are superior in some ways. Offering no suggestions on how men’s brains might be superior.

    And how does wiring for “social skills” make a woman “better equipped for multitasking”? It could simply mean that women are herd animals, more easily swayed by group think than by logic.

  93. Splashman says:

    FH is hilarious when he gets butthurt. “This is MY site! How DARE anyone share an experience and recommend a strategy contrary to my proclaimed truth!”

  94. Splashman says:

    @RPL, here’s how I look at the brain thing: Men are better at focusing on a task and persevering. That’s one of the reasons they invent pretty much everything. Women aren’t as good at focusing, more easily distracted and discouraged by a difficult task. Some beta decided to re-frame that as a virtue, and bang — multi-tasking became a thing.

  95. feeriker says:

    Science confirms the obvious. Again.

    “Scientists have drawn on nearly 1,000 brain scans to confirm what many had surely concluded long ago: that stark differences exist in the wiring of male and female brains.

    That this is even treated as news at all shows how low the bar has slipped in scientific research. Anyone genuinely amazed at this probably shouldn’t be permitted to live by themselves in the adult world.

  96. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Women can’t focus on any one thing. So instead, they mess up ten things at once.

  97. Westray says:

    “Would you be satisfied with a wife who did nothing much more than “feed you and fuck you”?”

    Is she 200 pounds or a buck ten? That subject comes up about 1/20th as often as it should.
    Let’s say she feeds you and feeds herself with an adult level of responsibility and stays lean (rare, I know)

    Satisfied….Yes
    As happy as Disney/Culture once had us thinking we might be….No
    Happier than 98% of actual husbands…Yes
    Satisfied enough to make us feel very, very grateful that we have her as compared to the overwhelming majority of modern women….Yes.

  98. Westray says:

    Women focus on subjects in which they choose their desired emotion at the outset and have the freedom to distort their view of reality until that emotion is validated.

    Men choose an objective goal and the emotion doesn’t come until their success or failure has become evident.

    This is why most women loathe STEM. Scientific reality is the ultimate patriarch.

  99. feministhater says:

    FH is hilarious when he gets butthurt. “This is MY site! How DARE anyone share an experience and recommend a strategy contrary to my proclaimed truth!”

    Did you read the article? I’m guessing not but continue to make up a bald faced lie. I gave my advice to jimmy, he can take it or leave it. You chaps are really chopping at the bit to get at me. Won’t do no good, marriage is just a bad deal. Get over it.

  100. feministhater says:

    Splashman, just quote the time I said the site was mine and that no one else can share any experience or recommend a strategy that is contrary to mine. To do so, you must show how I had the power to ban them and went ahead and did so. Should be easy to do.

    Go ahead.

  101. seventiesjason says:

    Jeff and I actually have some similarities. And we are yet very different in a few of the common denominators, and end results.

    I went to all “all boys boarding” prep school. I got my MS a very decent polytechnic. We had mixer dances with a few of the “girls’ schools” in the area of our high school. You were given a “number” and when the girls arrived, you would meet your corresponding number, and that would be your “date” for the night at the dance.

    I knew something was “up” and I was feelin’ like good ol Charlie Brown when after the third mixer dance that one semester…….there was no “corresponding” number for me…..yet there was always a “single girl” at the dance who “lost / forgot / didn’t have a number”

    You know it, and I do too. She saw who she was gonna be paired up with for a few hours….and that number she had suddenly “ummmm…..was like gone / couldn’t remember her number / lost it / so I just might as well hang by myself and meet people”

    I had a part time job at GAP in high school (1986-1989), saw hot girls, pretty girls everyday I worked. My good looking co-worker could “ask” girls out at the register, chat them up in the store….get dates. He told me “Just say hello, talk to them, ask for their phone number…it’s easy.” I tried, the answer would be “no” and the next shift my dumb manager would have a “chat” with me in the “office” and tell me that he got a “complaint” that I had asked out a girl, and she of course was “horribly offended / how dare your workers are not doing their jobs” kind of thing. She would be given a coupon for a “discount” for her next visit because we at GAP were not being professional. I would get a “corrective action” on file stating that I wasn’t allowed to “flirt” or “ask customers out” and it actually cost me a “raise” one year, despite my sales being very high, and my up sell was the highest in the capital region (Albany, NY) and proper by secret shoppers.

    In grad school,my polytechnic was 99% men. I bar tended at a local pub that was geared to college students and it served my grad school, the women’s college and the other nearby community colleges and tech school. Every girl was taken, dating-an-awesome-guy, seeing someone, just got out of a terrible, terrible relationship where she was beaten, hit, abused, locked in a closet type of thing………..heard every story (excuse?).

    There was a TV show on in the late 1990’s (I think) called “freaks and geeks” and the tagline on the commercials was “what high school was for most of us”. Never watched the show, but always smirked when I heard that tag line…..

    Jeff had “it” from day one. I didn’t. I can’t be bitter or angry at this point, but I still get annoyed when I hear about men who date “all the time” and their answer is just “ask her out / date lots of women”

    As if 😉

  102. SaltMark says:

    “Incidentally, it is a huge red flag if your woman bakes for her coworkers, especially if she never gives you any of it.”
    My ex wife used to do this. She was very anti-patriarch and skilled at being passive-aggressive. Being married to her was like being in a three-legged race with a corpse for thirty years. I still just can’t get the stench out of my nose.

  103. Novaseeker says:

    Jeff had “it” from day one. I didn’t. I can’t be bitter or angry at this point, but I still get annoyed when I hear about men who date “all the time” and their answer is just “ask her out / date lots of women”

    As if 😉

    Alphas and non-Alphas have very different reference experiences in life.

  104. earlthomas786 says:

    Women focus on subjects in which they choose their desired emotion at the outset and have the freedom to distort their view of reality until that emotion is validated.

    Men choose an objective goal and the emotion doesn’t come until their success or failure has become evident.

    You mentioned STEM…this is also basically how it works in the dating/marriage scene

  105. earlthomas786 says:

    Once you meet a woman, ask about her family. Any woman who talks shit about her parents or grandparents is worthy of an immediate eject. Take things slow and good luck to you.

    A good starting point is to ask her the relationship she has with her father. I always work that in when getting to know a woman. It will tell you a lot about what you are working with.

  106. Gunner Q says:

    @Splashman,

    I’m also INTP!

    seventiesjason @ 11:24 am:
    “And men who proclaim they are alpha, usually aren’t.”

    Dating advice by SMV category:
    The Alpha says “Pick a good one.”

    The Beta says “Search for a good one.”

    The Delta is the guy asking the question.

    The Gamma says “Be worthy and she’ll find you.”

    The Omega says “Whatever you see me do… don’t do that.”

  107. seventiesjason says:

    @novaseeker

    William James in his lectures on psychology in the 1880’s had an extensive discussion and book about “perception” and “sameness” and he used discrimination and comparison, in which emphasis is placed on the way people react to difference and sameness, reactions that may be fundamental to other psychophysical methods. Very different reactions and references experiences to life and similar situations, times, age…….

  108. Splashman says:

    @Earl, I agree, her relationship with father is a neon sign that advertises how she will likely relate to her husband.

    And even more generally, you can tell a lot about any person by how they relate to the various elements of their family (father, mother, siblings, grandparents). Also by how they relate to authority in general.

  109. john03063 says:

    All women have to offer a man is sex. But in order to get sex, you have to put up with the whining, crying, temper, expense. And let’s not forget the financial and emotional devastation of divorce. Better to buy a sex doll or robot. Spend time doing what you want. Then come home to a robot who will give you sex on demand and never have a headache. I’m in as soon as they can program these robots to make me a sandwich and get me a beer while I’m watching TV…

  110. earlthomas786 says:

    Guys im a young guy in my 20s, I want a wife and kids. What am i supposed to do?
    1. Get married , have wife steal my kids and money.
    2. Just be alone for the rest of my life, with no sons to carry on my name.
    wow what a great choice….

    Well it took me until my 30s to get this…

    Don’t worry about it, I’d say if you are Christian to focus more on what God’s will is for you in your life. Focus on your relationship with Christ, because in the end that’ll be the most important one regardless if you get married or not. What talents, gifts, abilities, focuses, skills etc. are you good at? Work on improving those. Get involved with your community or church…get a hobby or continue the ones you like, find groups to join. Have good male friendships

    These are the things that will make you interesting and most importanly show that you living a life. Women pick up on that…then just learn what the signs are for a woman who is interested and ask her out. Will this guarentee you a wife? No…but you’ll be living a life and that is what is important.

  111. Gunner Q says:

    “Better to buy a sex doll or robot.”

    If only Christ would sign off on that, we could stop making stuff for ungrateful women. That’s probably a major reason woodcrafts aren’t as popular as they used to be… there aren’t enough wives we like enough to do that kind of work for.

    OT but relevant to both the weekend and the Manosphere, I made a horrific discovery about cat toys while braving Black Friday. Check out the latest spokesman for cat toy shoppers:
    http://www.jacksongalaxy.com

    https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-05/12/20/enhanced/webdr08/anigif_enhanced-20811-1431478073-14.gif?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

    if the pic doesn’t come out then my blog has one in the most recent post..

  112. earlthomas786 says:

    Then come home to a robot who will give you sex on demand and never have a headache.

    I don’t care how lifelike they make them…that’s masturbating into a machine. It’s not sex.

  113. feeriker says:

    …we could stop making stuff for ungrateful women. That’s probably a major reason woodcrafts aren’t as popular as they used to be… there aren’t enough wives we like enough to do that kind of work for.

    I would certainly hope that any man who indulges in a productive hobby like woodcraft is not doing it in order to please a woman. I really wish I had inherited my maternal grandfather’s carpentry genes; I would be making all kinds of durable and useful things out of wood – for ME. If a wife I loved and cared for and who appreciated my work were to benefit from it, then all the better. But my creative motivations would not be centered on her.

  114. feeriker says:

    I don’t care how lifelike they make them…that’s masturbating into a machine. It’s not sex.

    If we didn’t live in an age of utterly degenerate insanity, the fact that increasing numbers of men have stated that they prefer jacking off into a machine to sex with a flesh-and-blood woman with whom they have bonded in matrimony would give society serious pause. That it doesn’t only serves to confirm how understandable these men’s preference is, no matter how abnormal and “degenerate” we choose to label it. They’re simply adapting in they only way they can to the conditions of their environment in order to satisfy a fundamental need.

  115. earlthomas786 says:

    It goes to show how destructive feminism is to women. Some men would prefer lifeless robots to Ms. Angry Empowered Dontneedaman.

    Robot jerking off is still degenerate…but feminism is utterly destructive to both sexes.

  116. Jimmy:

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/a-detailed-timeline-and-how-to-guide-on-the-process-of-finding-a-wife/

    I have more on stuff like that, but that’s the basics. I am also recently married after an extensive search.

  117. feeriker says:

    @Gunner

    So is part of the message in those ads that the pierced, tattooed, metrosexual hipster guy is the new stereotypical cat owner, alongside of the angry, headmed-addicted over-40 spinster?

  118. Son of Liberty says:

    @seventiesjason
    November 25, 2017 at 4:00 pm
    I went to all “all boys boarding” prep school. I got my MS a very decent polytechnic…

    I want all Dalrock readers to go through this YouTube channel (all videos) (not mine)…
    FACEandLMS
    in fact if Dalrock can opiniate on this and shed some light to this on his blog, it would be informative and enlightening to our highest ‘fleshly’ levels. The cold hard truth fellas.
    I seen this about year and a half ago and it cracks me up, I kept it on the low but that would be a disservice to our brothers. “Confidence”, lol.

  119. Son of Liberty says:

    This channel tops as one of my favorite red pill moments.

  120. Jeff Strand says:

    Deep Strength,

    I read your article, interesting stuff.

    But from my experience here at Dalrock’s comment section, I now know that you are way off base by assuming (as you clearly do in the article) that the average Joe who reads your article is able to ask a girl out and have her say “yes”. Apparently, being a regular, average guy means that no girl will ever date you…and so advising guys based on the assumption that they can date actual, you know, human females (!) is only going to leave them frustrated.

    Didn’t you know that only the top Alpha’s, with movie star looks, a big bank roll, and a huge c-ck, can expect to ever have the chance to date an actual woman? How can you not be aware of this? I swear it must be true, I read it on the comment section at Dalrock’s…and seventiesJason has been especially clear on this point.

    So to summarize, since your article proceeds on the assumption that the reader can actually date women, it will only be useful for the top 10 to 15% of men (the alphas). For the remaining 80+ percent of all men, it’s worse than useless and will only leave them frustrated.

    I mean, I would think this should be obvious…given that we can clearly see that only 15 to 20% of men ever marry or have serious girlfriends, while 8 out of 10 are lifelong incels. Right? And therefore, for ignoring these truths, and assuming the average Joe can date women, you have earned a “fail” on your article. Sorry, but you brought it on yourself.

  121. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Gunner Q, Deltas outrank Gammas? I’ve seen them ranked the other way on some manosphere sites. Possibly because in Brave New World, Gammas outrank Deltas.

  122. From the time a girl is 5 years old she’s taught never to do anything for a man. Little girls are indoctrinated through media, pop culture, Disney and the examples of their female relatives and peers NEVER to do anything to please men. Even when they do something to attract a man it is always under the pretense that she’s “doing it for herself”. Like she’s edified by the act and men might happen to find it pleasing.

    Little girls are prepared for lives to be independent from men so the thought of doing something with the expressed purpose of pleasing a man they might even love is always equated with submission and slavery. Even in the best of healthy Christian marriages the idea is that her man must be self-sufficient in his own appreciation is expected. She may even want to do something nice for him, but if she does she must fight against an upbringing and acculturation that makes her feel bad for doing it.

  123. feeriker says:

    “From the time a girl is 5 years old she’s taught never to do anything for a man. ”

    And yet at the same time she is taught that it is her RIGHT to demand from a man –ANY random man– that he do what she needs or wants. Because vagina.

  124. seventiesjason says:

    Exactly Jeff

    Have looks, a barrel full of arrogance and lead a sinful life….you’re rewarded. The rest of us have to stand and “be so happy for you” and get lectured down to by men like you for our normal lives. We finally agree 😉

  125. seventiesjason says:

    And Jeff…..if you could indeed walk a week in my shoes…..you would throw yourself in front of a train. You wouldn’t be able to handle it. That is the one area in life I got you all beat. I’ve mapped out extreme loneliness, rejection and silence.

    And I’m still here, and with most of my brain cells intact.

    I owe it to Christ. You owe your success to lucky genetics and “game”

  126. Jeff Strand says:

    Rollo: “Little girls are prepared for lives to be independent from men so the thought of doing something with the expressed purpose of pleasing a man they might even love is always equated with submission and slavery”

    Perhaps in many cases, but definitely not in all.

    I don’t know if you have daughters, but I do. And they are raised to be dependent on their future husband, and to respect and obey him as the head of the household. No doubt other redpilled parents are raising their daughters the same way.

    So such women will be out there and available for marriage. This is why I was encouraging to Jimmy a number of posts back. But young men like him had best plan on putting in some serious effort to make themselves competitive, as I expect girls raised like my daughters will command a very high value once they are in the dating and marriage market. They will only be looking to marry upper betas, because that’s how I’m raising them.

  127. Splashman says:

    @Rollo accurately describes the vast majority of the U.S. population. A very small percentage actually considers the situation a problem, and of those, a very small percentage is successfully raising their daughters to respect their fathers and then their husbands. The numbers are pitifully small.

    As a father, with two girls at or near marriageable age (17+), I spend tons of time inoculating them from the culture. That means identifying and analyzing sinful patterns that appear in movies, books, blogs, friends, and even in my extended family. So far, so good. My girls enjoy being around me, and are eager to learn. Sometimes we talk in the evening for hours about all kinds of things — politics, Bible, friends, Dalrock articles, current events, music, husband-hunting, wifely attributes . . . We’re on the right track, just have to be diligent and not slack off.

  128. Jeff Strand says:

    Splashman,

    We are in the same situation, except my girls are still tweens. But we already work on keeping them feminine – mommy works on teaching them to do their hair and be pretty, she takes them to the salon to get their nails done via mani’s and pedi’s, we have them taking sewing classes and they are getting quite good at it, for sports they do feminine things like tennis, they are now starting professional etiquette classes they will teach them proper, formal ladylike behavior, they see mommy submitting to daddy’s headship of the family…and she will even say things like “daddy is the boss” in front of them, they are already encouraged by us to marrry young and have multiple kids, etc.

    Nothing in life is guaranteed, but you have to give it your best effort, you know?

  129. Gunner Q says:

    Red Pill Latecomer @ 7:33 pm:
    “Gunner Q, Deltas outrank Gammas? I’ve seen them ranked the other way on some manosphere sites. Possibly because in Brave New World, Gammas outrank Deltas.”

    Vox Day put Deltas in the middle when he first created the system. He chose the delta symbol because it’s the mathematical symbol for change. The most definitive mark of a Delta is he’s trainable. You can teach him to Beta or deceive him to Gamma.

    Most of the angry crowd in the Manosphere is Deltas who were deceived long enough to be ruined. Accepting the consequences of your choices is one thing; forgiving an unrepentant society for lying to you until you couldn’t see straight is another thing.

  130. @ Jeff

    But from my experience here at Dalrock’s comment section, I now know that you are way off base by assuming (as you clearly do in the article) that the average Joe who reads your article is able to ask a girl out and have her say “yes”. Apparently, being a regular, average guy means that no girl will ever date you…and so advising guys based on the assumption that they can date actual, you know, human females (!) is only going to leave them frustrated.

    I know you’re being facetious, but I did cover that.

    The first step involves becoming more attractive.

    1. Cultivate a life of faith
    2. Get standards and set goals for yourself
    3. Workout, train, groom well, dress nice, etc.
    4. Be confident and ambitious in your career and so on.
    5. Work on leadership skills.

    Women like confident, muscular, masculine leaders who are ambitious.

  131. earlthomas786 says:

    I will say if you are fathers of daughters…you can certainly do a lot to influence them and who they eventually choose for a husband because you do have the authority over them at this point (until they get married or enter a religious vocation). Because if not there’s a whole destructive society that will give them loads of terrible advice.

    And if you have a good wife and mother to your daughters teaching them skills on how to be a good wife…even better.

  132. David Good says:

    This is true. She prepares good food for the family:

    I made a nice bedside table for her birthday:

    It’s the way things should work.

  133. earlthomas786 says:

    Women like confident, muscular, masculine leaders who are ambitious.

    This used to be common sense before things like feminism and gender confusion became the norm.

  134. @ earl

    This used to be common sense before things like feminism and gender confusion became the norm.

    Yup. It’s still the case, but such men are in very short supply. Any man who can become one will stand out from other men.

    The one big thing holding many men back is that most of us were taught that we had to have a good job to get married and it just happens. Turns out that’s not the case when women can rely on big daddy government and their thirst for “working” like men. Turns out most of them hate working, but they made their bed to lie in.

  135. feeriker says:

    But young men like him had best plan on putting in some serious effort to make themselves competitive, as I expect girls raised like my daughters will command a very high value once they are in the dating and marriage market. They will only be looking to marry upper betas, because that’s how I’m raising them.

    Sounds a lot like “no man is good enough for MY little princess!”

    You might just be setting your daughters up for a long life of spinsterhood.

  136. Anonymous Reader says:

    Splashman
    @RPL, here’s how I look at the brain thing: Men are better at focusing on a task and persevering.

    The more extreme versions are now classified as a defect.

    That’s one of the reasons they invent pretty much everything. Women aren’t as good at focusing, more easily distracted and discouraged by a difficult task. Some beta decided to re-frame that as a virtue, and bang — multi-tasking became a thing.

    Nobody multitasks. Everyone does a switch in context, although some do it really fast. “Multitasking” is a myth.

  137. seventiesjason says:

    Prize horses behind…..Neil Strauss who wrote “the game” and became “king PUA” said it best in an interview a few years back after renouncing “game’:

    You gotta have something. All the game in the world. The right style, attitude, and even looks only goes so far. You have to be able to talk, listen and learn. You gotta have things about you that make you ” you” and are interesting to women and those around you. The best methods and advice only goes so far because we all are not the same”

    Probably the smartest thing I ever heard him say. Mind you, he also was a famous writer for “Rolling Stone” by his own skills before learning “game”

    Looks fade, you for the most part are not going to become a surgeon after the age of thirty, and really……most men don’t look like Jude Law and never will.

    It is pretty much over for a guy who never has dated, never had a gf, a virgin after the age of 35.

    It blows. I cursed genetics and refused the roll of the dice I got in that area of life. Still do. But at least I know what I like, what I am good at. I still have my sobriety. A job. I can dance and I still can rock a skateboard.

    Useless stuff.

    But I have seen a lot. Been places. Saw the general cruelty and meaness in people from a young age (my older brother has Downs Syndrome)

    Life still goes on. Marriage or fathering children doesn’t make a man a man, nor does it even make him a good person. In the end….even a guy like Jeff will have to submit before the same Cross like a “loser” like me. Justice.

  138. feeriker says:

    Women like confident, muscular, masculine leaders who are ambitious.

    This used to be common sense before things like feminism and gender confusion became the norm.

    This just inspired a question: why is there no “Mizz America” Contest?

    The ideal “crown winner” in this pageant would be a morbidly obese, tattooed and pierced (over all parts of her body), butch-cut, angry, ignorant, foulmouthed feminist lesbian who not only cannot hate men (and the society they built for her) strongly enough, but who also cannot rage crudely and violently enough at the pageant she has just won the crown of, screaming about how it objectifies “women.”.

    Surely SOME wealthy and influential manospherian can make this event a reality.

    Then again, scratch the whole idea. There would be too many eligible contestants to make the idea feasible or logistically practical. Still, if it ever came to be, it would be the REAL DEAL where representing 21st Century American Womanhood is concerned. That farce that takes place in Atlantic City is not only that, but pure and obvious fraud as well.

  139. feeriker says:

    Life still goes on. Marriage or fathering children doesn’t make a man a man, nor does it even make him a good person.

    Very true. I remember a line delivered by Laurence Fishburne in (I think it was) Boyz in the Hood in which he tells his young teenage son something to the effect of “any fool with a dick can create a child. It takes something else to be a man.”

  140. Gunner Q says:

    “But young men like him had best plan on putting in some serious effort to make themselves competitive, as I expect girls raised like my daughters will command a very high value once they are in the dating and marriage market.”

    The only 20-year old men with the same SMV as 20-year old women are Trust Funders, sociopaths and homeless musicians. Are you content with that pool of prospects or are you willing to marry your high-value daughter to a no-value engineering student or second lieutenant?

  141. seventiesjason says:

    Or a young man in his respected church who actually read the Bible and (gasp) actually believes it?! He wants to be a pastor. That man won’t fit the upper beta litmus test either.

  142. Luke says:

    jimmy says:
    November 25, 2017 at 12:12 pm
    “Guys im a young guy in my 20s, I want a wife and kids. What am i supposed to do?
    1. Get married , have wife steal my kids and money.
    2. Just be alone for the rest of my life, with no sons to carry on my name.
    wow what a great choice….”

    Search online for the news item about a guy named Toban Morrison. He found a better way than incel childlessness or frivorce rape.

  143. feeriker says:

    …are you willing to marry your high-value daughter to a no-value engineering student or second lieutenant?

    What, and have her have to BUILD AND GROW A FUTURE along with her husband?! That means WORK, SACRIFICE, AND STRUGGLE for Daddy’s Pwecious Widdle Pwincess. Are you NUTS?!

    Pwecious Widdle Pwincess deserves only the best: a guy who has already done all the heavy lifting and made his fortune BEFORE he meets her.

  144. feeriker says:

    I’ve never bothered to ask Jeff, but I’m pretty sure that he’s the living embodiment of a common manosphere stereotype: the guy who has only daughters for children.

  145. Oscar says:

    @ jimmy says:
    November 25, 2017 at 12:12 pm

    When asking for advice, pay attention to advice from those who’ve succeeded at whatever it is you’re trying to do.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/interviewing-a-perspective-wife-part-i-should-you-open-a-position/

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/interviewing-a-prospective-wife-part-ii/

  146. Dale says:

    The Beta says “Search for a good one.”
    The Omega says “Whatever you see me do… don’t do that.”

    I guess I am part Beta and part Omega. I search… but I also admit that I have not had success, with the logical conclusion being that my “techniques” are thus suspect.

  147. bdash 77 says:

    Women want men like this. Men who act like women. They want the men to bake cookies

    Look at the press secretary, she prays to God every day and has an excellent husband who cooks, cleans and cares for her kids while she achieves her career- this is what Christian women want.

    even the christian circles are seeing this- they want to blur the roles – they hate the thought that men would be career focuses and women care for the home
    http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2017/11/complicating-manhood-and-woman.php

    see this genuine christian woman
    http://biblicalwoman.com/what-biblical-womanhood-means-for-a-woman-in-the-military/
    she has no issue with usurping men and invading a male space/responsibility.

    The God of the bible who did not ask his rulers to have female warriors, heads of house holds and husbands all of a sudden in the 21st century has changed his mind?

  148. Anon says:

    But young men like him had best plan on putting in some serious effort to make themselves competitive, as I expect girls raised like my daughters will command a very high value once they are in the dating and marriage market. They will only be looking to marry upper betas, because that’s how I’m raising them.

    Ugh. Another one of these cartoonish fathers.

    1) Are you going to ensure that they are virgins at marriage?
    2) Are you going to ensure that they marry at age 22 to a man they met in college (the best place to meet men).
    3) Why do you think that men their age are ‘not good enough’? You are conflating SMV with MMV.

    If you want a man who is already impressive, you will have to marry your 22 y/o daughters off to a man who is 10-15 years older. That gap is not large in the long run.

    But your passage above is the sort that just about guarantees that your daughters miss the boat and become old maids.

    There was a person here called Tom/Asdgamer. He had two daughters who were doctors, but over 30. They were average looking, but of course no parent can admit that about their daughters. He was certain that their being doctors made them the apex of attractiveness. He was combative about that point. Eventually neither got married, and he became ultra-bitter about that.

  149. feeriker says:

    There was a person here called Tom/Asdgamer. He had two daughters who were doctors, but over 30. They were average looking, but of course no parent can admit that about their daughters. He was certain that their being doctors made them the apex of attractiveness. He was combative about that point. Eventually neither got married, and he became ultra-bitter about that.

    Most FODANS (Fathers Of Daughters And No Sons) wildly overcompensate by turning their daughters into the sons they never had while at the same time deluding themselves into thinking that these androgynous-feminist creations are attractive to men who would make decent husbands. It never turns out that way, for obvious reasons. However, these guys have ego-invested too much into their little princesses to allow themselves to admit the truth.

  150. Splashman says:

    Here’s the list of qualifications my daughters will require for a potential husband:

    1. Fears God (i.e., supreme respect for God’s supreme authority)
    The rest follows from #1: Hard-working, loves to learn, desires children, accepts his position of authority and responsibility for wife and children.

    Here’s what my daughters will bring to the marriage:
    1. Fears God
    The rest follows from #1: Hard working, loves to learn, desires children, accepts her position as husband’s helper under his authority.

    As of right now, they love to cook for me, they do household chores cheerfully, they never challenge my authority, they enjoy learning from me about pretty much anything, they learn well on their own (e.g., when I tell them to google how to mend a rip in a sweater), and they’ve learned to get along well together, despite personality differences. They love their little brothers and practice mothering on them (e.g., not dictating but cheerfully directing). We don’t watch TV (just movies), but because we’ve analyzed so many movies and books together, they can spot feminist (Eve’s) ideology a mile away, and it disgusts them because they know where it leads (misery for all, and ultimately Hell). They know and accept that once they are married, husband is their authority, and divorce isn’t an option. They’ve seen Dad stick with a lousy marriage instead of bailing, and they know why (Dad fears God). I’ve taught them about the expectations men have of women, vs. the expectations women have of men. They know that looking good for husband shows they fear God. They know that keeping husband satisfied sexually shows they fear God, and they have learned a lot about what that entails. They regularly daydream and chit-chat about what it will like to be married, adapting to husband’s preferences (“I wonder what kind of music he’ll like?”), having kids, having their own home, developing their own routines.

    As noted above, we don’t have a long list of qualifications for husband. But in my experience it is not easy finding a God-fearing man, any more than finding a God-fearing woman. They are both quite rare.

  151. Most men under 40 can’t build shit and the women can’t cook even that.. Anyway, there are far bigger tides washing ashore. From another thread in a place far, far away it was determined that no woman, even a Mrs., wants to be called Mrs., Mrs. is now a matronly disclosure, anyone know that? It signifies age but also, it tells everyone ‘not available’. Women of today don’t want either of those, Mrs. is a mark of age-shame, and/or sellout to a man. Besides, with 80% of women cheating and filing the divorces now, “Ms” was always bound to be the norm. If at work your wife is “Ms.”, followed by your last name, you have a problem. If she doesn’t even use your last name, you have a BIGGER problem.

    All that having been said, what difference does bad cooking or rough carpentry make?

  152. Jeff Strand says:

    “The only 20-year old men with the same SMV as 20-year old women are Trust Funders, sociopaths and homeless musicians. Are you content with that pool of prospects or are you willing to marry your high-value daughter to a no-value engineering student or second lieutenant?”

    I would encourage my daughters to date men 5 to 7 years older. So when in their early 20’s, they would be looking at guys in their late 20’s, who are beginning to be established in their careers. This worked out well with my wife and me – when we met and started dating, she was 24 and living at home with her parents while I was 30 and owned my own home. We married a year later.

    By the way, LOL at the comments about how I shouldn’t teach my daughters to have standards when choosing a husband or else they may end up spinsters. Because you all keep saying that NAWALTS are so rare as to be like finding a needle in a haystack. But since, if all goes to plan, my girls will be NAWALTS like their mom….it just stands to reason that they will have a very high MMV. NAWALTS are in very high demand in the marriage market, full stop.

    Plus, although they are still young and just now approaching their teen years, it’s already clear they are going to be very attractive young ladies, physically speaking. This is a HUGE plus for a chick, as any manosphere reader well knows. Add to this a very feminine vibe and characteristics, an attitude of anti-feminism, good moral values, great competence in domestic arts like cooking, cleaning, sewing, etc, and a willingness to happily submit to and depend upon her husband, and presto! You have a NAWALT on your hands.

    The wife and I are not going to all this effort to raise them to be NAWALTS so they can marry any old loser who comes along. As NAWALTS they will know how rare they are, meaning they know their value, and I will teach them to seek out and marry a “greater Beta”, like their mom did.

    It makes sense. If I had sons, I would raise them to be greater Beta’s and teach them to seek out and marry a NAWALT. Since I have daughters, I raise them to be NAWALTS and teach them to seek out and marry a greater Beta. Simple, right? NAWALTS and greater Betas are a match; they go together. (Recall: I define “greater Beta” as a guy who has the Alpha traits and characteristics, yet unlike many pure Alphas (e.g., Buddy Rockbanddrumme or Harley McBadboy), the greater Beta wants the lifestyle of a husband/father and will make good husband material)

    Do I have any guarantee this will work? Of course not. But nothing in this life is guaranteed. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, that doesn’t mean I don’t save for retirement. All you can do is the best you can and the rest is in God’s hands.

    It will be a decade or two before I see how well this plan works. But I known I’m asking to much for some of you guys to just wish me luck. Instead, you have to tear everyone else down. Real mature.

  153. feeriker says:

    Splashman says:
    November 26, 2017 at 3:25 am

    Thank you. The differencd between your expectations for your daughters and Jeff’s for his can be summed up in one word: humility. If your daughters exhibit that same attribute, along with all the other valuable attributes you and your wife have instilled in them, then they will find quality Christian husbands sooner rather than later. “Complete products” as far as husbands/providers are concerned? Maybe not, but men who will grow into that role in short order with the help of the attributes your daughters possess. The experience, while not easy, will be a blessing to all involved.

  154. feeriker says:

    If she doesn’t even use your last name, you have a BIGGER problem.

    If that’s a problem, you’ll know it before you marry her and thus won’t marry her in the first place.

  155. Jeff Strand says:

    “If that’s a problem, you’ll know it before you marry her and thus won’t marry her in the first place.”

    Couldn’t agree more. This is a no-brainer.

  156. earlthomas786 says:

    As noted above, we don’t have a long list of qualifications for husband. But in my experience it is not easy finding a God-fearing man, any more than finding a God-fearing woman. They are both quite rare.

    Even more rare is that they find a God fearing man they have ‘tingles’ for.

    Hate to say it but until women get it through their thick skulls that their feelings isn’t the most important factor when it comes to choosing men for their husband (I’d put it behind ‘is he God fearing and a responsible, productive man’)…it’s going to be difficult for them to see other aspects. But that’s why having a good father to have a role model for them to go off of when choosing a man is important because whether we like it or not their feelings will usually be a breakpoint. So they’ll associate those good feelings they have with their father with ‘God fearing, responsible, productive man’.

  157. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “Hate to say it but until women get it through their thick skulls that their feelings isn’t the most important factor when it comes to choosing men for their husband (I’d put it behind ‘is he God fearing and a responsible, productive man’)”

    That sounds good on paper, but I’ve also seen redpills say you shouldn’t marry a girl (no matter her qualifications as a wife/mother) if you don’t want to just rip her clothes off of her, throw her down on the mattress, and give it to her good.

    Likewise, a girl shouldn’t marry a guy unless he gives her the tingles, hard. Because otherwise, she’s in basically the same situation as the gal who marries her beta orbiter. And that rarely ends well. Look at Lisa Whelchel (“Blair” from “The Facts of Life”) for an example here – a good born-again Christian, she married her beta orbiter, whom she had no tingles for, because he convinced her it was God’s plan for her. Keep in mind, he was her church pastor. She felt like, how can I go against my pastor? Surely he’s right that it must be God’s will! Well, needless to say, after a number of years of her trying to fulfill the role of a good wife and work up some attraction to him, all to no avail, it ended in divorce (her choice).

    So I think chemistry, physical attraction, and “tingles” are just as important as the character qualities you mention, Earl. I think you need to have BOTH, or you shouldn’t marry. If you marry anyway, without the chemistry and passion, I think you are really handicapping yourself (whether you are the husband or the wife) and creating a situation where the risk of divorce is unacceptably high.

    Just my 2 cents.

  158. earlthomas786 says:

    If at work your wife is “Ms.”, followed by your last name, you have a problem. If she doesn’t even use your last name, you have a BIGGER problem.

    She wants the benefits of marriage without the title of being married. It’s another subtle (or perhaps not so subtle to red-pill men) form of rebellion.

  159. earlthomas786 says:

    So I think chemistry, physical attraction, and “tingles” are just as important as the character qualities you mention, Earl. I think you need to have BOTH, or you shouldn’t marry.

    I put them as third because I also think they need to be there but they shouldn’t be #1 like women seem to think they should be…there’s an order to the process.

    Let’s face it a lot of women go with ‘loser’ men only based off the fact those men give them tingles. He could be a drug addict, abuser but if he knows how to give her the right feelings she’ll fight for him until he kills her. It’s why a lot of men here state things like being a God fearing man or having a job won’t attract women to you alone.

  160. earlthomas786 says:

    There’s plenty of women I’m easily physically attracted to…they give me the ‘tingles’ if you will. But they also see the numerous red flags that I know that will torpedo my life if I pursue those.

    That’s why the woman I choose to be my wife won’t be on feelings alone.

  161. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “That’s why the woman I choose to be my wife won’t be on feelings alone.”

    Of course not, that would be foolish.

    Anyway, in your preceding post you said that the chemistry and tingles “need to be there”, so sounds like we agee on this topic.

    But it was worth emphasizing. We often warn girls not to marry the loser bad boy, who gives her tingles. And we warn guys not to wife up some sluttly ho bag just because she’s hot. But we seldom warn young people not to marry someone they aren’t physically attracted to, even if other great qualities are present in the potential spouse. And yet this is equally important!

    Again, just ask any chick who married her beta orbiter…despite the lack of tingles. How many times does that work out well?

  162. earlthomas786 says:

    Again, just ask any chick who married her beta orbiter…despite the lack of tingles. How many times does that work out well?

    The lack of tingles I’d suspect is more because he’s not the head of the marriage and she was heading into desperation mode she’d marry anyone who was willing.

    I remember reading a book where the man claimed he interviewed 11,000 women and their relationships. He made the claim a lot of women married guys they weren’t even attracted to but did it because they wanted to be married or they were feeling the pressure of not being married. He thought it was something like 1 in 4 marriages are like that.

  163. infowarrior1 says:

    @Jeff Strand
    Many women do not label themselves feminist. But they do act the part. So people need to watch out.

    @Earl
    Unless Passion is mutual then marriage shouldn’t even happen.

  164. infowarrior1 says:

    @Boxer
    Better term for “gamma males” is soi bois. Low T males who do not deserve to be called men.
    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-65500.html

  165. seventiesjason says:

    How does one explain all the marriages that were arranged for untold centuries, and even today in a good part of the world? I have Indian friends that had arranged marriages, and they have made them work. I am not suggesting that is what our culture should do…….but we seem to marry for “love” and “tingles” and the abysmal divorce / infidelity stats really show something disturbing.

  166. seventiesjason says:

    @Son of Liberty

    Very interesting channel. I watched a few of the videos. I just reinforced what I already knew when it came to “surfical” manners in LMS, he brought up some interesting points.

    We as a culture are moving even faster in this direction…..hyperspace. I suppose I would be defending it, or calling other grown men “losers” if I was on the wining side on these issues. I have never been told I was ugly. I know I am probably on the lower end of attractiveness on a scale of 1-10 but as usual…….I’ve seen PUA’s tell me about the “8 / 9” he nailed last night, and I see her……and she’s about a 4.

    So I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or desperation 😉

    One of my married couples here in the building I work in….been married 66 years. Wife has had a stroke. Wheelchair bound. Needs so much care. Her husband still bathes her daily. feeds her. talks to her. Sure, they have a “health aid worker” come in as well to help…….but the husband one day said to me as he pushed her into the lobby in her wheelchair “Isn’t she the most beautiful woman in the world?”

    I even had to admit, at that moment….she was.

    They met in high school their senior year, were married seven months later. Makes you wonder. With all our “game” and “sexperts” and “dating books” and “professional speakers” and know it alls who post here………..

    A couple from a small farm town met in high school. Married seven moths later, and 66 years later, still married. Makes you wonder. I am sure he didn’t ponder if he was a “alpha” or beta or even lived in the “delta house”

    Outlived two of their children. went through everything together….and even at the end “in sickness and in health” taking the promise to God seriously. Not rich. Not many assets but something few men and fewer women will ever have. Commitment.

  167. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Unless Passion is mutual then marriage shouldn’t even happen.’

    I get what you are saying…but I think things like she’s rebellious to male authority from God through her father, hates men, has no discerning homemaking or motherlike skills are bigger reasons not to marry her than just if she has no tingles.

    But let’s say she had those things…then yes the last thing that should be there is mutual passion. It shouldnt be a stand alone reason to marry someone though.

  168. earlthomas786 says:

    The question we should ask about her tingles is if they come from being rebellious or do they come from submitting to her husband.

  169. Bee says:

    @Jeff Strand,

    I do wish you good luck in raising your daughters.

    Raising children correctly is very difficult. Finding and keeping the right balance between firm and loving is challenging. I also wish you wisdom in continuing to do a great job in raising your children. All the best to you and your family.

  170. Gunner Q says:

    Jeff Strand @ 6:39 am:
    “I would encourage my daughters to date men 5 to 7 years older. So when in their early 20’s, they would be looking at guys in their late 20’s, who are beginning to be established in their careers.”

    And who, if Christian, have been starved for sex for 10+ of their horniest years. There might be some hard feelings or consequences about that, buy hey, maybe you’ll be as forgiving of youthful indiscretions as your wife was for you. But that isn’t a Christian attitude.

    You want to pick a winner. That is not how patriarchy is done. You pick a promising young man, bring him into your family and invest in him. That is much more Christian than forcing young men to get established with the entire world arrayed against them. No free schooling, no starter money, no easy opportunities, no hopeful affection, come back when you’re worth something to me, kid. What a great attitude for a FIL to have.

    “As NAWALTS they will know how rare they are, meaning they know their value, and I will teach them to seek out and marry a “greater Beta”, like their mom did.”

    Feeriker is right. You’re presetting your daughters’ hypergamies at Christian Grey by telling them they’re high-value and shouldn’t settle for lesser men. Might as well send them to college just to get them out of the house.

  171. earlthomas786 says:

    You pick a promising young man, bring him into your family and invest in him. That is much more Christian than forcing young men to get established with the entire world arrayed against them. No free schooling, no starter money, no easy opportunities, no hopeful affection, come back when you’re worth something to me, kid. What a great attitude for a FIL to have.

    And as some men who had to go at all that basically alone…once they do make up to the finished product they begin to wonder what’s the point of having a wife anyway. She wasn’t there helping when he was at the bottom struggling trying to get to the top.

  172. seventiesjason says:

    I have no comment about raising children. I don’t have them. I do know if I had a teen age daughter, I would be dead from a massive coronary already, or she would be in a Convent.

    I have experience with young boys and teenage boys from Scouting. Most are pretty messed up by their single moms, and the Troop / Pack I led……….most didn’t even know their bio-dad….and they all had a terrible opinion of him……”mom” made sure of that! Most come from homes where there is a revolving door of “new” boyfriends mom finds. Shows me how thirsty and desperate most “real men” are when it comes to a “hole and a heartbeat” and “sex on tap”

    When I have pushed boys in Scouting, mom usually tells me that “I have no right to do that”
    yet, they expect me to make him into a man. I challenge the boys, and HOLD them accountable to the Scout Oath and Law, I get the “it’s supposed to be fun, not work” from the BSA regional office and from their single mom’s. When a boy at “Court of Honor” (awards ceremony) doesn’t make rank, I am told I “oh, but we want them all to be included” (everyone gets a trophy generation / mindset)

    So…….organizations like Scouting have been gutted and MEN have left. The alpha guy made the boy…but “he’s too busy being a leader with dating women” the beta is to sissified, the others have no clue….and what is left, and is now LEAVING are men…. men who have “no label” who just liked working with boys, liked the outdoors, the para-military aspects of Scouting and liked the beauty of His creation. They finally have time to go out on their own and hike and camp.

  173. earlthomas786 says:

    I don’t have children either…but I always thought the point of raising daughters is so that they could attract and secure the commitment of a good son in law for you.

    I’d also point out to Jeff…his daughters still have the ability to be AWALT. You have a bias because they are your kids…but good guys like me are going to have to be scrutinous about their hearts. There’s too big a risk not to. Even the best women will be tempted to rebel. Eve had everything and still rebelled because she wanted more. That’s why humility and letting them know there are consequences to rebellious actions are important.

  174. Anon says:

    You want to pick a winner. That is not how patriarchy is done. You pick a promising young man, bring him into your family and invest in him. That is much more Christian than forcing young men to get established with the entire world arrayed against them. No free schooling, no starter money, no easy opportunities, no hopeful affection, come back when you’re worth something to me, kid. What a great attitude for a FIL to have.

    This x100. It is how the best societies often worked.

    However, I must point out that Marriage 1.0 did not actually do this very often. Instead, the marriageability of a young man was almost entirely based on the status of his family. In other words, a man who was either much more or much less capable than his father got hugely mispriced in the MMP.

    There was a huge advantage for a boy to be from a wealthy family. A self-made man from a poor family still got far less interest. Marriage 1.0 was not a meritocracy at all, but rather a propagator of elite families, and even the mediocre sons of such families had much higher MMV than self-made men. For that reason, Marriage 1.0, while much better than 2.0, was still not as great of a thing as the nostalgic make it out to be.

  175. The Old Sarge says:

    “Feminism is the idea that women are free when they serve their employers but slaves when they help their husbands.” — Unknown

  176. Jeff Strand says:

    Bee: Thank you for the kind comments, there are much appreciared. All the best to you and your family as well. And you’re right, raising kids isn’t easy. But you do the best you can. Just recently, I have imposed a new daily rule for my girls when they say their prayers at night – they are to pick one thing they are grateful for in their lives and thank God for it, and they are to beg God that He grant them, above all else, that they never lose the Faith. Because this modern culture is just so debased and corrupting that it’s becoming ridiculous.

    Seventies Jason: Yep, the Scouts are done. The Girl Scouts went down the drain years ago when they started letting “out and proud” dykes become Scout leaders…and sleep out in tents with vulnerable pre-teen and teen girls. The Boy Scouts held out for awhile, but now they have gone down the road to Gomorrah as well. As Trump would say, Sad!

  177. Anon says:

    And as some men who had to go at all that basically alone…once they do make up to the finished product they begin to wonder what’s the point of having a wife anyway. She wasn’t there helping when he was at the bottom struggling trying to get to the top.

    Which is why it is time for marriage to die, outside of a few small communities. The value proposition for a man has declined irrevocably.

    Unless a society makes people marry (or at least be fully committed) no later than age 22, as virgins, Marriage does not work on a society-wide basis.

    There is no room for a carousel, nor is there room for age to drift later than that.

  178. earlthomas786 says:

    For that reason, Marriage 1.0, while much better than 2.0, was still not as great of a thing as the nostalgic make it out to be.

    I think the bigger reason why it was much better than 2.0 is that families stayed together. A boy knew his father (as long as he didn’t die) and grew up with the father in the family. That’s worth a lot in the creation of a boy to a man even if the family didn’t have financial wealth. Divorce/bastard children has never been a good thing…even when men had more of the power to do it, but it’s absoulety destructive that women have pretty much all the power to do both.

  179. earlthomas786 says:

    Unless a society makes women marry (or at least be fully committed) no later than age 22, as virgins, Marriage does not work on a society-wide basis.

    Let’s make no bones about it…we know why marriage is being delayed and why it is not working society wide.

    We need men of honor too, but they can’t get married to a widescale society of unwilling partners. I was talking with one of my younger friends (23) who is marriage minded too and he already knows how hard it is to find a willing partner.

  180. seventiesjason says:

    Where I grew up……in the 1970’s / 1980’s everyone was married. No, they were not “devout Sunday church folk” but all my childhood friends…….their parents like mine were married. I got into boarding school, that is where I first met guys who came from families of divorce…..and undergrad????? (1989-1993) man o man…….EVERYONE was from “broken home” I was a minority on campus at that time, and my parents had been married well over 25 years at that point.

  181. Anon says:

    We need men of honor too, but they can’t get married to a widescale society of unwilling partners. I was talking with one of my younger friends (23) who is marriage minded too and he already knows how hard it is to find a willing partner.

    Of course. That is why I don’t quite agree with some of the people here who say marriage carries very high status for women.

    It certainly does not carry high status for women under 30, or else they would not be delaying it until the last minute. It only carries status for women who are about to age off of the carousel. If women were still pretty until age 45, they would push the age of marriage to 45. So marriage is still the second choice for women.

    Plus, I am not sure it is high status even after that. I compiled a long list of famous attractive women from the 80s and 90s, and it seemed that two-thirds of them remained unmarried after age 45. They had 1-4 divorces, and never married again. These are famous people, of course, and while they would have to take a step down from what they could get in their prime, there are still plenty of high-status men who would marry a 90s-era actress or supermodel now aged 50. But most of these women choose to be single after 50 or so.

  182. Opus says:

    The way to a man’s heart is through his stomach and possibly his dovetails.

  183. Jeff Strand says:

    “You want to pick a winner. That is not how patriarchy is done. You pick a promising young man, bring him into your family and invest in him. That is much more Christian than forcing young men to get established with the entire world arrayed against them.”

    True to a point. But I don’t think most young men are ready for marriage at 21 to 23. Certainly, the vast majority of men at that age are not seeking to be a married man in the next year or two. Whereas a guy from 26 to 29 is open to the idea (with the right girl).

    Also, a guy at 22 to 23 is literally right out of college (he’s 22 at graduation if he did a simple 4 year degree right after high school). He needs to focus like a laser on getting a foothold in his career field. Plus, he might have to be willing to pick up and move. This was the case for me – I moved 100 miles away for a job when I was 22 because it got me started in my career field. After a year and half, I moved again, this time 150 miles to a totally different city.

    By then I was in my mid 20’s, and I stayed and put down roots there. I dated different girls, had a steady gf from 24 to 26 (I’m ashamed to admit we lived together for a year, in sin…but I can’t change the past), dated another girl at 26 for six months that I dumped because she was pushing marriage and she was too old for me (she was 33), dated another girl at 27 that I got engaged to, ended up breaking off the engagement after a couple months because I realized she wasn’t right for me, then dated casually for a couple years without getting too serious with anyone while I continued to successfully work on advancing my career, followed a weight lifting and running program to get myself in the best shape of my life (before or since), bought a 4 bdrm, 3 ba house by myself at 28 years old, worked on my spiritual side my returning to my Faith and started receiving the Sacraments again, and then met and and dated my now-wife at 30 (she’s 6 years younger). We were married a year later, and children came a few years after.

    So my experience, the timeline works well for the girl to be early 20’s and the guy mid to late 20’s. He’s a bit established, hopefully he’s not moving so much for work, he’s achieved a level of maturity that make him suitable to lead a marriage, etc.

    Now, would I totally rule it out that one of my girls marries her high school sweetheart, right out of high school? No, I don’t rule that out completely. But I am somewhat skeptical. Ironically (or not), my wife is much more enthusiastic about this scenario. Go figure.

  184. Son of Liberty says:

    @seventiesjason
    I’ve seen PUA’s tell me about the “8 / 9” he nailed last night, and I see her……and she’s about a 4.

    Precisely, happens all the time.

  185. earlthomas786 says:

    Also, a guy at 22 to 23 is literally right out of college (he’s 22 at graduation if he did a simple 4 year degree right after high school). He needs to focus like a laser on getting a foothold in his career field.

    And yet there’s a married couple whom I’m good friends with that were high school sweethearts that got married right out of college. He’s doing well in his career and has 6 kids. The fact they got married didn’t hinder his career advancement or focus on it. In fact things like having a wife and children if anything gives him tangible reasons why he should (if he’s the responsible type).

    If it wasn’t for making sure I fulfill the gifts God gave me to the best of my abilities in my career…I’d wonder what’s the point to be motivated if I don’t have a wife or kids. So in a sense I understand a secular man’s point of view.

  186. earlthomas786 says:

    Another one of my childhood friends married his wife right out of college. He started as a teacher and is now a principal with 5 kids and has put in a lot of work to get where he’s at. The fact they got married at 22 didn’t hinder his focus in career advancement.

  187. feeriker says:

    And as some men who had to go at all that basically alone…once they do make up to the finished product they begin to wonder what’s the point of having a wife anyway. She wasn’t there helping when he was at the bottom struggling trying to get to the top.

    THIS.

    Any man who has made a success of himself, through his own blood, sweat, and tears while the rest of the world either ignored him or went out of its way to be a stumbling block to him, and who has been ignored by women up until now that he has become successful would be very wise to be very wary (ok, CYNICAL is a more apt word) of any woman who shows interest in him. Matter o’ fact, he should be fitness testing her to the point of driving her to madness (the ultimate test: tell her he’s lost his fortune and see how she reacts).

  188. seventiesjason says:

    My dad was going on 29. My mom was 19. My dad was pumping gas, in “journeyman” school working part time as a farm hand, lived at his aunts house……..skiing, hunting, and putting all his extra money into his “car”

    My mom was a LV Nurse. They got married, and built their life together. Started in an apartment, rented a house, built a house………….ended up buying a second home in (condo) in Florida….raised kids, good times and bad times. They had each other. They became good friends. They were a team. If it was today…….my mother would deem my father a “loser” because at 29 he didn’t have a house, a college degree, and had never had a serious girlfriend and wasn’t “hot”

    My folks were not perfect, but they did have a great marriage.

  189. Mich says:

    [i]But let’s say she had those things…then yes the last thing that should be there is mutual passion. It shouldnt be a stand alone reason to marry someone though.[/i]

    No, it’s not a stand alone reason to marry someone. But, lack of attraction is a stand alone reason NOT to marry someone.

  190. feeriker says:

    Jason, your parents’ story sounds similar to that of my parents (I’d put my parents at maybe a decade der than yours).

    They had each other. They became good friends. They were a team.

    Yep. And I’m sure they also had one more thing that was just as important as, if not more important than, all of those other attributes: gratitude.
    For one another. For what little they had.

    This is something very few people of either sex have today, and it explains why our society is so profoundly miserable (and that includes too many people who insist on calling themselves “Christians”). This, in turn, explains the dangerously high levels of broken marriages and families today People who are ungrateful cannot place any value in anyone or anything that they have. It’s small consolation, but a thin silver lining to that dark and ugly cloud is that some of the ingrates wake up and turn their attitudes around – but only when it’s too late, after they’ve lost that which they did have and now have NOTHING.

  191. Splashman says:

    @Feeriker,

    “Complete products” as far as husbands/providers are concerned? Maybe not, but men who will grow into that role in short order with the help of the attributes your daughters possess.

    As mentioned previously, I was a complete moron when I got married, which is why I ended up with an unsuitable helper. But I eventually learned and matured. For my daughters, I will not be looking for complete products, but men who appear to be on the right track (fear God, hard workers, etc.)

    An important quality I want my daughters to bring to the marriage is gratefulness. Grateful for a husband, grateful he accepted her as wife, grateful for the opportunity to help him achieve something in this world.

  192. Splashman says:

    Whoops, made that comment before I saw your latest, Feeriker (re: gratitude). We’re on the same page.

  193. Dale says:

    @Splashman

    Based on your 3:25 comment, your daughters will be very impressive, and you are doing very well.

    @Jeff

    Good luck with your daughters.
    I don’t think most young men are ready for marriage at 21 to 23. I cannot speak for other men, but I was actively looking and praying for marriage at 21. Of the 3 women in the church youth group who appeared to be living out submission to God, one was already with the guy she later married and one did not respond (favourably) to my advances. The one and only woman remaining was not physically attractive to me — a problem that will be common when a man’s “potential pool” has only 1 woman in it.
    Regardless, I was strongly wanting and willing to take a wife at 21. I am sure I am not the only one.

    As for career, I was on the path by age 21, and by 26 was making 100k Canadian (maybe 80k US) a year. I was working in my profession by 23, and there is no reason that marriage would have been “too hard” financially. Difficult for the first 2 years, yes. But not impossible.

    When your daughters reach that age, there will be men aged 22 who are almost ready to start their career. You, as the father, just need to look for them. (Expecting a woman to make a massive decision like choosing a husband is foolish. Scripture shows father is to make the decision.)

    And as some men who had to go at all that basically alone…once they do make up to the finished product they begin to wonder what’s the point of having a wife anyway.
    Plus, the kind of woman who is available to an older man is one who herself is over 30. Or even 35 or 40. Exactly what value does a 40 year old woman offer?
    If she is the 40-year-old version of the hot 20-year-old who gave him her virginity and has been loyal and faithful for 20 years, the value will be tremendous.
    If she is the 40-year-old who squandered her best years on herself/career/education/finding herself, the value is very little. And yet, other men treat me with contempt by pushing me to accept this type of woman who waited until she had almost no beauty, youth, and fertility to offer.

  194. feeriker says:

    As mentioned previously, I was a complete moron when I got married, which is why I ended up with an unsuitable helper.

    You and me both. I suspect a lot of us are/were in that same boat. I’m still paying for it.

    But I eventually learned and matured.

    Ditto. Unfortunately, it came too late to save my marriage. However, I’m being given another opportunity that, while I know it will be difficult in the midst of this collapsing society, will enable me to be blessed by what I’ve learned.

    My sincerest prayer is that ALL marriages thrive.

  195. Splashman says:

    @Jeff Strand,

    Likewise, a girl shouldn’t marry a guy unless he gives her the tingles, hard.

    Pure, unadulterated bullshit. In the Bible God tells us that our feelings are unreliable guides, and can be trained. How many of the great marriages in the Bible came about because tingles? And how many disasters came about because tingles?

    Again, just ask any chick who married her beta orbiter…despite the lack of tingles. How many times does that work out well?

    That’s called the fallacy of the false choice. Tingles, or beta orbiter. Really, no other possibilities? How about this: girl identifies man who fears God, and is on the path to maturity. She tells herself “this is a good man.” She signals to him that she’s willing and able, he proposes, they marry. She spends her days focusing on his good qualities, minimizing his faults, knowing that her cheerful, helpful attitude will materially contribute to his success. Thus, over time, she trains her thoughts and feelings to be something like: “He’s a good man, a hard-working man, a man who works hard and learns and improves because he loves God and loves me. When he gets home I’m gonna jump his bones and make him see stars. And then he’ll look at me that way he does, and I’m gonna have those tingles again. Thank you, God!”

  196. Jeff Strand says:

    Dale,

    I never said “no 21 year old man wants marriage, not a single one”. I said “most” do not want to be married a year down the road. This is factually correct. It just is. I’m sure Dalrock can help verify this to you by showing you the stats, if you ask him.

    You say you were “ready” for marriage at 21, but may I ask what age you actually were at time of actual marriage?

    As for myself, I was in my last year of college at 21…and was in no way ready for the responsibility of being a husband and father. By the time I was 27 I did feel ready and got engaged, but later had second thoughts and broke off the engagement (breaking up with the girl in the process). When I was 30 I got engaged for the second (and last!) time. Approaching twenty years, happily married.

    So I have to ask…because talk is cheap. Did anybody on this comment thread actually get married at 21 or 22 and have it work out? (I realize Earl can say “a friend” did, but that doesn’t really help.) Any of you guys actually reading this – did any of you take your own advice and marry at 21 or 22?

  197. seventiesjason says:

    Feeriker. Exactly.

    Gratitude. They started out with very, very little. In the late 1970’s the construction / contracting / heavy construction indusrty ground to a HALT. My father was out of work. Unemployment ran out. My mother went to work full time. My dad would grab any job at the Union Hall that was offered. Even if was a job for a few days.

    Thing is….my parents already KNEW how to adapt to this. They started out poor, and with very little. They knew they were on “hard times” but their own past 13 / 14 years of marriage had built them up. They made do. They could “cope” and they knew they would get through this. Today? Most marrieds if they indeed fell on “black days” financially, the divorce would happen quickly. The “doctrine happiness” the “doctrine of tingles” the “doctrine of providership” are hammered hard in and out of the church. Part of a strong marriage is knowing that trouble could happen.

    I remember being eight / nine and our whole family had setup in the kitchen and living room. We had a fireplace and the kitchen stove was used for heat as well (it was the northeast). The furnace was only used to prevent the pipes from freezing in the house. By 1980 / 1981 my dad was back working, mom scaled back her hours at the hospital a bit and another “tough” period was over for them. I do remember my mother crying here and there “what are we going to do?” My dad would say “We’ve been through worse”

    Marriage today is so sanitized that when “problems arise” the marriage cannot hold.

  198. Jeff Strand says:

    Splashman: “That’s called the fallacy of the false choice. Tingles, or beta orbiter. Really, no other possibilities? How about this: girl identifies man who fears God, and is on the path to maturity. She tells herself “this is a good man.”

    You don’t have to convince me of anything. If that’s what you want to teach your daughters, have at it. I hope it works out well for them.

    I, on the other hand, happen to think that marrying someone you’re not attracted to physically (aka, “tingles”) is a recipe for disaster. Therefore I would strongly discourage my daughters from marrying such a man, regardless of what his other character traits are. I don’t care if he’s a Nobel Prize winner! If there’s no chemistry, you don’t marry him. Not when you’re young and marrying for love and family formation, anyway. Maybe if you’re marrying late in life for companionship, like a lot of widows do…then I guess I could see it.

    Just as I would never have married my wife if I didn’t have a tremendous attraction to her, regardless of her other qualities. Taking your advice, I could have justified marrying a girl I had no attraction to by figuring, “I’ll just focus on her good qualities and over time MAYBE I’ll become sexually attracted to her.”

    No thanks. That’s a hard pass.

  199. seventiesjason says:

    Jeff

    If she marries the guy who plays in a rock band, rides a motorcycle, and lives on / off the dole because he gives her the “tingles…..HARD” I am very sure you will be very “supportive”

  200. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason: “If she marries the guy who plays in a rock band, rides a motorcycle, and lives on / off the dole because he gives her the “tingles…..HARD” I am very sure you will be very “supportive”

    Dude, I said tingles were NECESSARY, I did not say they are SUFFICIENT. Do you understand the English language?

    Btw, that’s why I said ideally NAWALTS should marry “greater Betas”, not pure Alphas. Because pure Alphas are often unsuitable for marriage. Whereas a greater Beta is defined as a man who has the traits and characteristics of an Alpha, yet wants the lifestyle of a husband and father – not the lifestyle of a rock band drummer who’s nailing a different groupie every night, which would appeal to a pure Alpha.

  201. Novaseeker says:

    Whereas a greater Beta is defined as a man who has the traits and characteristics of an Alpha, yet wants the lifestyle of a husband and father – not the lifestyle of a rock band drummer who’s nailing a different groupie every night, which would appeal to a pure Alpha.

    Technicality, but that is more of an “AB” or “Alpha Bux” = someone who is Alpha, but who has the provision/stability/Dad characteristics of a BB. A greater beta is not an Alpha in terms of attraction ability, but is more attractive than the average beta — it’s like the term says, he is a BB, but more attractive than the average beta. An AB is someone who has the attraction ability of any other Alpha, but the provision/stability/Dad characteristics of a good BB.

    And they’re really, really, really rare in 2017, frankly.

  202. seventiesjason says:

    @Jeff

    “Likewise, a girl shouldn’t marry a guy unless he gives her the tingles, hard.”
    The word “necessary” wasn’t in your reply above. I do understand English. Welsh and German too 😉

    You are outta here!

  203. feministhater says:

    I think you gents should be extremely grateful for MGTOW. It is removing the type of men your daughters do not want. It’s perfect, the women only get to choose from the men that really give them the tingles and those other men, like Jason and myself, get to live our lives without the burden of not being able to measure up to Missy’s expectations and being divorced or cheating on for it

    Come on, it’s a win/win if ever there was one. For once we can all agree, surely?

  204. seventiesjason says:

    I “lean” and consider myself MGTOW but FH you know there are different shades n’ hues to MGTOW.

    Some are “players” and some date for “merely amusement” and others have the “forced hand” of really no other choice. A few are woman haters, and a few lean more to the MRA camp….

    I get it. It helps. I’ve mentioned before, I’m polite and use general decorum when I deal with or speak with women out and about. I hold the door open for a woman if she is right behind me, I am polite to the sales girl at Banana Republic or Macys (esp if I want to return something. In retail, being a polite customer gets you far. Man or woman). When I go dancing, if a woman compliments me on my dancing I smile, and thank her, and then ignore her. I work well with one of my managers who is a woman. The one Officer at my Salvation Army Corps is a woman, and she is a pleasure to talk with.

    The problem with MGTOW it turns quickly into two things: The He-Man Woman Haters Club or The Pile O’ Woe Hope House

    I complain about women. Most my age because that is what I can reference the best and what I know. When the red pill was fully swallowed, and after its bitterness caused some retching and bad discomfort eyes were opened to my situation and just “what it is” I will admit my life did get better and I did find purpose without validation of women or guys who put their validation upon recognition of women.

  205. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    Alpha Bux
    And they’re really, really, really rare in 2017, frankly.

    They will be more rare in 2018. Rarer still in 2019. The Female Imperative is determined to flush away the 80% in order to make the 20% that much more visible. Expect that to grind on to 90/10.

    Young churchgoing men are going to have to follow something very much like Deep Strength’s strategy. They will have to ignore all the advice from their Baby Boomer and GenX relatives, because what “worked “in the 1970’s, 1980’s or 1990’s is completely out of date in the modern “marketplace”. Fortunately the GenZ young men are getting a lot of practice ignoring their elders in the K-12 system, where the Female Imperative seeks to grind them to dust on a daily basis. As the prejudice against men gets worse, men will have to get tougher hides and better wits.

    The most valuable thing a man with The Glasses can do is hand a pair on to any man around, especially those in their 20’s.

    Equally importantly, churchgoing men who are fathers to daughters are going to have to teach those girls to have lower expectations than their mothers. Maybe the whole SAHM model won’t be workable, maybe work-from-home over the net will be part of it, maybe both of them will have to run part time businesses in the “gig” economy that is what it is. With a majority of college students female there is mathematical certainty that college girl hypergamy won’t be satisfied for at least some of them. It’s not as bad as, say, England in the 1920’s, but it’s not possible for every college girl to marry a man with a college degree. Just not possible.

    Daddy’s little special snowflake princesses are going to have to realize there might not be a glass slipper out there with their name on it. But they’ll still have a pony reserved for them on the cock carousel, courtesy of the Female Imperative. Keeping them off the carousel is the real job for a real father — if he’s allowed near them.

    One of the things that gets shoved off to one side in the discussions by churchgoing people is the children of divorced / frivorced families. There’s about 40% of the college population that grew up in a busted home, where “Daddy” may be a dirty word, courtesy of “Mommy”.

    Latin American countries back in the mid 20th century ran literacy campaigns and one version was the “Each one teach one” – every person who knows how to read and write must teach another person those skills. In 2017 there is a deep need for every man who knows the truth about men and women to teach another man those facts. Grassroots subversion is our best tool right now.

    The tl;dr
    Alpha Bux are rare, they will get more rare because of the FI. Young men need to be taught the truth about women and themselves in order to give them a chance. Young women’s expectations need to be lowered. Churchgoing people need to do this in their own way. Deep Strength’s roadmap is a good one.

  206. seventiesjason says:

    About Gen Z???? I don’t know. back in the 1990’s all the CONservatives were telling us that this “young generation coming up is really really conservative” (Millennials)and even during a men’s fellowship at a large evangelical church I attend on Tuesdays….the clueless pastor was telling us men “These Millennials are actually very conservative, pragmatic, and are LOOKING for leaders.”

    I had to stifle a laugh on that.

    I led Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for over six years (2011-2017). The teenage boys were all left leaning, didn’t have a problem or issue with homosexuality, and most thought that the Constitution declares “healthcare as a right”

    So I don’t know. Most have been brainwashed by schools by the time they hit jr high. Also to get women, and dates, and sex these up and coming young men are gonna have to agree to the feminist imparative or they will end up like me

  207. feeriker says:

    The Female Imperative is determined to flush away the 80% in order to make the 20% that much more visible. Expect that to grind on to 90/10.

    Which will do nothing but make it even more difficult for the average woman (and that’s what the vast majority of them are and will always be: average, at best) to get male attention.

    They truly are blind to cause and effect. It’s going to be hilarious to watch them finally get what they (think they) want.

  208. feeriker says:

    …the clueless pastor was telling us men “These Millennials are actually very conservative, pragmatic, and are LOOKING for leaders.”

    That’s not indicative of cluelessness; that’s indicative of profound mental retardation.

    Sickening.

  209. dee nile says:

    “Did anybody on this comment thread actually get married at 21 or 22 and have it work out?”

    I did. Wedding anniversary #41 celebrated last summer.

  210. Boxer says:

    I will admit my life did get better and I did find purpose without validation of women or guys who put their validation upon recognition of women.

    I wrote about this a long time ago.

    https://v5k2c2.wordpress.com/category/mgtow/

    MGTOW is Wittgenstein’s ladder, which you climb. Once it is used to get to where you are happy, the proper thing to do is to kick it away, and wander off to do something fun (i.e. “ghosting”).

    The problem with MGTOW it turns quickly into two things: The He-Man Woman Haters Club or The Pile O’ Woe Hope House

    There are guys who refuse to get off the ladder. I’m torn between seeing them as John-the-Baptist types, who spread the message to younger dudes, and seeing them as masochists, who simply don’t want to be happy. Either way, they’re not our concern. Our concern is to find purpose in life (usually with the help of some discipline like Christianity), to enjoy life, and to make our own lives a work of art. Our time is finite, my brothers. We should use it well.

    Best,

    Boxer

  211. earlthomas786 says:

    I think we’d all agree the ideal marriage would be a husband and wife of good character who tingle hard for each other. But how many marriages are like that? There’s not a lot of good character people out there and if you believe the stats many women think most men are unattractive (for whatever reasons).

    So let’s take it to the less than ideal…which is worse to go without, lack of tingles or lack of good character?

    In my view as hard as it would be…I’d rather she be of good character and have lack of tingles than the other way around. I’m basing that off what the Bible considers a praiseworthy woman.

    But I will make a big however here…at least in my experience if they lack attraction to me, they’ll tell me so that I can get out of the relationship. I’ve read plenty of stories where she kept that under wraps and didn’t make that known until after they got married…and I would consider that bad character too.

  212. Jeff Strand says:

    ““Did anybody on this comment thread actually get married at 21 or 22 and have it work out?”

    I did. Wedding anniversary #41 celebrated last summer.”

    On a personal level, congrats. That’s a wonderful outcome right there.

    But I don’t think it’s very useful for the purposes of my question, because that means you got married in the mid 70’s, when third wave feminism hadn’t really even started yet. The dating and marriage markets, as well as the job market, are totally different now.

    But again, on a personal level, nothing but congrats and good wishes. That’s quite an achievement!

  213. Jeff Strand says:

    “I think we’d all agree the ideal marriage would be a husband and wife of good character who tingle hard for each other. But how many marriages are like that?”

    ** raises hand **.

    (And still tingle hard for each other, after 17 years of marriage and two kids. It’s not as impossible as you imply)

  214. earlthomas786 says:

    Young men need to be taught the truth about women and themselves in order to give them a chance.

    I think you’d be surprised how much more red pill the younger men are than us.

    I was pretty amazed how much my young friend knew how raw the deal is with women and marriage. A lot of them don’t know about blogs like this but they’ve gone through it and seen what it is like.

    He didn’t state it explictly…but he was aware of things we’d call hypergamy and the flat out lack of decent women to choose from.

  215. earlthomas786 says:

    It’s not as impossible as you imply

    It’s not impossible, but it’s also not common. There’s probably a longer list of deadbed marriages than tingles marriages.

  216. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason: “I led Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for over six years (2011-2017). The teenage boys were all left leaning, didn’t have a problem or issue with homosexuality, and most thought that the Constitution declares “healthcare as a right””

    This surprises me not even a little bit.

    A buddy of mine is divorced and no longer has much influence over his daughters (both in high school). They were raised with good morals, went to Mass every Sunday, had 8 years of Catholic schooling (though now in public high school), etc.

    But the overall culture, plus his lack of influence since the divorce 5 years ago, worked its evil magic. He recently told me his girls have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage. Furthermore, they don’t believe there are any sexual sins at all! When he asked what they considered sinful, they answered “racism”…so clearly the Leftist indoctrination is working.

    (A few years from now I’m sure they’ll answer by saying there’s no such thing as sin, period). My buddy is understandably very depressed – his girls are still so young, yet he can see they’re already ruined. He feels he has lost them. Say a prayer for him, if you’re so inclined.

  217. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “It’s not impossible, but it’s also not common. There’s probably a longer list of deadbed marriages than tingles marriages.”

    You may well be right. But there’s nothing I can do about those other people. So, not to sound cold, but I’m just gonna focus on my marriage…and do what I can raising my kids to give them the best chance at a sound, happy marriage one day. More than that, I cannot do…so I’m not gonna waste my time worrying about it.

  218. Splashman says:

    @Jeff Strand, you pretend to promote a Biblical perspective, then when challenged, fall back on “I think” and “I believe” and “hey, whatever works”. You’re a typical gutless churchian.

  219. earlthomas786 says:

    Chemistry is certainly overrated in our ‘women’s feelings are everything and the only thing’ culture. And it’s getting worse if they are willingly deciding to feel that 80-90% of men are unattractive. Either because they think much too highly of themselves or the think very little of men in general.

  220. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jeff Strand
    …that means you got married in the mid 70’s, when third wave feminism hadn’t really even started yet. The dating and marriage markets, as well as the job market, are totally different now.

    Irony.

  221. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    I think you’d be surprised how much more red pill the younger men are than us.

    It’s looking that way in some places. Maybe some of the girls are catching on as well. Sometimes I go all “grey man” in public just to listen and observe.

    Overheard at an [undisclosed] location last month over lunch: upper teen / maybe 20-21 year old woman telling her mother “Mo-ohm! Bob’s mother is, is a predator! She divorces men just for their money! That’s why he’s living with his grandmother now while he finishes high school because he hates his mom and his dad is weak!”

  222. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    And it’s getting worse if they are willingly deciding to feel that 80-90% of men are unattractive.

    It’s not willingly. Cats are not dogs, Earl. But the 80/20 rule has been demonstrated via the big data of OKCupid and the not quite so big data of Tinder. Bear in mind that rule is “80% of the men visible”, so in some situations such as a conservative church it is much easier for a man to rise to the 20% attraction level.

    But again this is not a cerebral, reasoned position, this is not in the frontal lobe, this is further back. Or lower down in the limbic system.

    Perhaps men should view the old 50’s SF movie “Forbidden Planet” a time or two. Just to really understand what destroyed the Krell and how that affects them.

  223. Jeff Strand says:

    Splashman: “@Jeff Strand, you pretend to promote a Biblical perspective, then when challenged, fall back on “I think” and “I believe” and “hey, whatever works”. You’re a typical gutless churchian”

    Wow, nice. Here come the personal insults. Very classy.

    Fine. Screw you, buddy. Right back at ya.

  224. feeriker says:

    Either because they think much too highly of themselves or the think very little of men in general.

    Both.

  225. feeriker says:

    “Mo-ohm! Bob’s mother is, is a predator! She divorces men just for their money! That’s why he’s living with his grandmother now while he finishes high school because he hates his mom and his dad is weak!”

    No, sweetie, Bob’s dad isn’t “weak;” he’s been destroyed by the State, which Bob’s mother used as a weapon against him in the divorce. He probably wants very much to do the right thing by Bob, but he’s been gut-shot, disemboweled, and castrated, and thus doesn’t have any fight left in him. Bob will understand this fully in just a few years and when he does, his mother had better hope that he is morally grounded enough not to go Edmund Kemper on her, much as her skank-ho ass desertves it.

    “So, little girl, what have YOU learned from this, and what are you going to tell a man you’re attracted to in the future when he by reflexive default treats you like the slutty, life-taking poison that is most of your peer group? What will you do to prove to him that YOU are really, truly “not like that?”

  226. Met mrs in grade 11. Went to high school together. Went away to college.
    Met up at friends wedding at 22.
    First date Saturday, engaged Friday. (Her ring has six stones, one for each day dated)
    Married at 24.
    Raised two kids. Married 30 next october.
    I am married mgtow. Other than mrs keep women interactions to a minimum.

  227. Married not for love.
    Married because we wanted family, shared values, shared outlook.
    Not all roses but our faith in the idea of marriage and family first got us thru.

  228. Novaseeker says:

    Married not for love.
    Married because we wanted family, shared values, shared outlook.
    Not all roses but our faith in the idea of marriage and family first got us thru.

    Admirable.

    How does it work, practically, (or how has it worked in that way) in terms of intimacy and such? Love grew and blossomed after the fact, or something else?

  229. We were Not high school sweethearts. In fact her bridesmaids were some of the girls I dated in high school, her friends. Our n counts were 4 and 5 when we got together. Not innocents but enough dating to know what we wanted and didnt want.

    But it was the eighties and we were brought up in the 70s before most of this moronic started so we are probably the last of the long term couples. In fact none of our friends are more than ten years in, many on 2nds or 3rds.

  230. earlthomas786 says:

    But again this is not a cerebral, reasoned position, this is not in the frontal lobe, this is further back. Or lower down in the limbic system.

    I agree it’s not a reasoned position…but they are willingly choosing something that is unreasonable. If they think feminism or their feelings is a code of conduct they should follow (which will lead to man hatred and a unrealisticly high view of oneself), they are choosing that path.

  231. Ups and downs. Grew, faded, regrew.

    Five years ago (just after the kids left for uni) during the year of hell we seperated for a few months. But neither dated or anything. We just were in a rut and frustrated.
    We just looked into the abyss and stepped back. I got redpilled and she rediscovered her feminimity.
    So now its just the two of us in oiur wee cottage.

    And we come from blue collar stock. I was a long time manager but we had a working farm too.
    Work ethic and frugality.

    Oh and she invested in me. I was a lowly warehoiuse guy when we married. But after decades of work and frugality we sold our farm, downsized and now have zero debt, not even a car payment, and a half million in the investments at 55. So we are semi retired.

    Vice versa, one of her bridesmaids, my ex gf got married at….wait for it…fifty.
    Carer girl etc. They are best friends but the trwo are walking images of the old and new schools.

  232. It is an amazing comfort to have someone who knows how you grew, evolved, became what you are.
    I literally will not live long enough for someone to know me as well this point forward
    (38 years we have known each other…id have to be 93)

    Also a big thing is we know the Door is right there. We have seen it, know its there, and each day choose not to go thru it.

  233. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    I agree it’s not a reasoned position…but they are willingly choosing something that is unreasonable.

    Earl, “willingly” implies “reasoned”. Women don’t do cause and effect very well, remember?
    “It just happened”…

  234. American says:

    Shopping for Thanksgiving I ended up in a supermarket line behind a disordered feminist wearing a feminist pink hat shirt who had just slapped about four packs of pork chops down on the conveyor belt, blood leaking out of the packages all over the belt dripping over the sides.

    She glared at the checkout clerk who put her head down and then turned to glare at me daring me to critisize what she had done. I was faced with a decision, I could say nothing and miss feminazi would take her pork shops and leave (after the person bagging groceries properly placed them in a plastic bag for her) or I could take the bait and initiate WWIII.

    Being an anti-feminist single MGTOW, I took the bait of course. “How can you slap those pork chops down on the conveyor spreading bacteria all over it which could make innocent people ill? Are you that stupid, that evil, or both?”

    I’ll leave the rest to the reader’s imagination but yes she turned red with rage and began screeching. I never backed down an inch. The police were called and the matter was eventually sorted out in the parking lot. The clerk and those who stayed for the verbal battle took my side. She didn’t start swinging on me but I think she was close to that point.

  235. Novaseeker says:

    Earl, “willingly” implies “reasoned”. Women don’t do cause and effect very well, remember?
    “It just happened”…

    Dogs and cats. It’s about understanding cats and cat-on-ese.

  236. earlthomas786 says:

    Earl, “willingly” implies “reasoned”.

    The will is making a choice. It can either be a reasonable one or unreasonable one.

    Women don’t do cause and effect very well, remember?
    “It just happened”…

    Women are also good at plausible deniability.

    But it’s still a choice they made even if ‘it just happened’.

  237. Novaseeker says:

    But it was the eighties and we were brought up in the 70s before most of this moronic started so we are probably the last of the long term couples. In fact none of our friends are more than ten years in, many on 2nds or 3rds.

    Ah, I see. I’m only 5-6 years behind you. Anyway, you’re fortunate for what you have been able to achieve there — that’s great, and also sobering in terms of the rest of your social group.

  238. earlthomas786 says:

    It’s not really dogs and cats either. They are different species.

    Both men and women are humans who have complimentary traits to each other.

    Things like free will and choice are something we both have.

  239. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl, a question. (Or anyone else who wants to answer it)

    You said you are open to marriage if you could find the right girl. Since everyone here prefers traditionalism, may I ask if you prepared to support a potential and any children? Meaning, that you will supply the housing, the cars, pay all bills, even give her household and spending money, plus save for retirement and your kids’ education? (Which isn’t just college – you may have them in pvt school even in elementary or high school)

    I’m asking because it seems like a lot guys want a NAWALT, but providing for her in this way is something a NAWALT will be looking for. She’ll be expecting that, just as you are expecting her to be a good, faithful, submissive wife and traditional mother. So is this something you can offer her?

    P.S. I understand that the wife can work before kids come along. But given the traditional demographics here, I assume once kids come along you’ll want her at home, raising the kids. So let’s assume you’re gonna be dealing with a wife AND kids.

  240. earlthomas786 says:

    So is this something you can offer her?

    Yes. I don’t have a home right now because I don’t need one…but if I know I’m getting married, I’m buying a home.

    I assume once kids come along you’ll want her at home, raising the kids. So let’s assume you’re gonna be dealing with a wife AND kids.

    Yes…the point for the job I have now was to give my future wife the option to stay with the kids when they are young. I’m not a fan of daycare.

    But do women see that when they are dating me? Probably not…it’s only what they are feeling in that moment from what I’ve experienced.

  241. Yet Another Commenter, Yet Another Comment ("Yac-Yac") says:

    Hi, Y’all. 🙂

    Been away from the blog for a while; catching up.

    I was going to write a response to this comment, or to that comment, or those three/five/eleven comments, and then I realized (what with the list piling up, of all these great comments prompting my potential replies): this is a great thread! :^)

    So, instead of blah, blah, blah from me, instead I’ll just thank our gracious host for a brilliant OP, and also all — well, almost all 😉 — of you, for your excellent comments and replies, and for all of the interesting shared hyperlinks.

    Pax Christi Vobiscum

  242. Novaseeker says:

    It’s not really dogs and cats either. They are different species.

    Both men and women are humans who have complimentary traits to each other.

    Things like free will and choice are something we both have.

    Sure, but in the context of sexual relations, that is where most of the differences are, and they are stark. It isn’t quite a different species in terms of difference in that specific area, but it is close to it, even if overall the differences are smaller. In this specific context, and which is the relevant one for what we are discussing, they are practically a different species from us, with completely different experiences, completely different opportunities and challenges, and completely different ways of experiencing life. They have choice as to action, but because of these differences in experiences, opportunities, challenges, the approach to encourage them to act morally is thoroughly different in a context where these choices and opportunities are encouraged. Put briefly — they are more like us than not overall, but in the specific context of sexual relations they are so different as to be close to being a different species, and therefore the same approach (“you have choices, just make the moral ones!!!”) as we may use with dogs will be spectacularly unsuccessful with cats in this context.

  243. earlthomas786 says:

    Shoot there was one lady I dated I told her mother where I worked…and she knew what type of perks and benefits that job had. But did her daughter see that…no, she only saw her feelings of me and gave me the ‘just friends’ speech. Her loss, I guess.

  244. Lost Patrol says:

    American

    I never backed down an inch.

  245. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl,

    Ok, I understand.

    I don’t know the young lady, so I don’t know why she friend-zoned you. But I look at it like this – the prerequisite to be able to support a family on your part, as the man, is NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT. The chemistry must be in place too. From her point of view, both must be present. And if not, she’s wise to nip things in the bud. So maybe you two just didn’t click in that way.

    Like I said earlier, same thing works the other way around. No matter what a great, traditional, God fearing wife and mother a girl would make, if there’s no attraction felt towards her by the man, he shouldn’t marry her. If I had a son, I’d make sure to teach him this. Basically, if you don’t want to just rip her clothes off and throw her down on the bed…don’t even consider marrying her.

  246. earlthomas786 says:

    They have choice as to action, but because of these differences in experiences, opportunities, challenges, the approach to encourage them to act morally is thoroughly different in a context where these choices and opportunities are encouraged.

    Well yeah, the biggest difference is most men choose sexually based of the visual and most women choose based more on emotional. But if a person bases their decisions off rash emotional feelings…it’s still a choice. Being in an unreasonable state doesn’t negate their will.

  247. earlthomas786 says:

    I don’t know the young lady, so I don’t know why she friend-zoned you.

    Oh I know why…we had a young adult get together about our season in life and she admitted as much she’s prone to being lazy and wanted to be on her own. So not only were the feelings not there…she’s not really marriage material at this point either.

    Turns out when I heard that I realized I dodged a bullet. The Lord does work in mysterious ways after all.

  248. earlthomas786 says:

    No matter what a great, traditional, God fearing wife and mother a girl would make, if there’s no attraction felt towards her by the man, he shouldn’t marry her.

    It’s a little different in this aspect in that the man is a picker. Are there lots of cases of men picking a woman to marry they aren’t attracted to at all? I’d be interested to know why then.

    The woman is the chooser. I do know there are a lot of cases a woman will choose to marry a man she’s not attracted to and never was.

  249. feeriker says:

    may I ask if you prepared to support a potential and any children? Meaning, that you will supply the housing, the cars, pay all bills, even give her household and spending money, plus save for retirement* and your kids’ education**? (Which isn’t just college – you may have them in pvt school even in elementary or high school)

    Did that for 23 years while married to Godzilla (and on far less money for most of that time than I make now) and am prepared to do it all over again as soon as me fiancee and I tie the knot.

    Really, Jeff? It’s neither rocket science nor a painful sacrifice if you’re both grounded, share common values, and have realistic expectations for what kind of lifestyle you can live on the resources you have. I did it even while married to a woman whose values in practice turned out to be 180 degrees out from my own. It’ll be that much easier when I avoid the mistakes of the past, no matter how limited the resources.

    (* Grownups who live in the real world [i.e., one based on the fiat American dollar] know better than to believe in retirement, any more than they belive in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy)

    (** Kids need to pay for their own damned “education” after they graduate from high school. The WORST thing western society ever did was subsidize college education. That’s why it’s become worthless today, the equivalent of High School’s 13th-16th Grades. Making kids pay for it themselves will make them think twice, thrice, or more about how badly they really want one of those increasingly worthless pieces of paper called a college degree.)

  250. Jeff Strand says:

    Yep, you prolly dodged a bullet.

    Reminds me of a gal from a church group I took out on a date one time. She was pretty, but we had a hard time relating because I was 29 and she was 22 (and acted it). She was just totally into music…all about Tool, Korn, Fuel, stuff like that. It was her priority in life and all she wanted to talk about. Needless to say, I didn’t ask her for a second date.

    Then I took out an even younger girl (she was 19, while I was pushing 30). Took her out to a nice romantic dinner at an Argentinian steakhouse, then to Dave and Buster’s. When I drove her back home, I walked her to her door and went in to kiss her goodnight. She turned her head at the last minute to give me the cheek, lol. I think I may have laughed out loud, I found it so funny! Of course, given the age difference I didn’t expect anything serious to come of the date. But I was expecting a kiss goodnight on the lips, lol.

    A few years earlier, when I had just broken up with my steady gf of nearly two years, I dated a cute little Italian girl. We went on several dates, and I even came to her house to meet her parents. Things might have developed, but she confided in me that she had once had an abortion. Her parents even knew about it – they told her to do it and they paid for it, then told her to never tell…not even her future husband! I was so disgusted that I never called her again, and never saw her again once the date was over.

    Ahhh, memory lane! Then there was the time I’d been dating this Cuban chick for a few months (she wanted to get serious but for me it was just a rebound), and I ended up putting together her sister with a coworker of mine (they later married…and divorced). Shortly thereafter, when I started dating this cute little blonde who would later become my fiancé (not talking about my wife), this coworker would rat me out….telling his chick that I wasn’t really working late like I told my Cuban gf (of course, I was with the blonde). Naturally his chick would immediately blow the whistle on me to her sister (my gf), who would go off on me! But I was falling for the blonde….what was I supposed to do?

    And there were more serious episodes too. Like the chubby nurse, a single mom, that I nailed on the first date. At the end of the date, I didn’t even bother taking her to my house…just got a cheap motel room at some seedy Motel Six by the interstate. She agreed to it and said she was up for it. After we had our romp, I drove her back to her car and went home. When she realized a few days later that I had no intention of ever seeing her again, she WENT OFF! Threatened to track me down and do a drive-by on my house (made sure to emphasize that she had a gun), threatened to accuse me of rape, etc. For a long time after that I would use a fake name when dating a new chick. Understandably so, I think!

    Women. They sure make life interesting.

  251. seventiesjason says:

    So Jeff

    The disciples failed. Miserably as men, husbands and fathers.

    They left their subsistence jobs to follow a rabi with no formal training.
    They left their wives to follow this man. They didn’t work double hard for three years so they could provide for them while they followed this teacher. They left their children as well.

    Jesus should have only selected men of upper beta means to be used with and by him. Silly, dumb guy that Jesus.

    God is not an American. God never demanded a man provide a dream life for his wife. He only demanded that he love her as His Son loved the church. No small task.

    In India I saw families living 15 people to a house. No electricity. Clapping, singing, teaching. Loving and their faith in God, each other and no fear of a better life.

    Jews in the death camp Buchenwald knowing that they were going to die still sent children to the rabi for teaching.

    The can do attitude of a proud immigrant Chinese Christian father in the USA who proudly states “I scrub floors for a living. My son goes to Harvard”

    Faith. Trust. Work. Commitment builds a strong marriage. Not material goods. Or a standard of living. Or things.

    If I was married. I could live in s studio apt with my wife and children and still praise Christ for what I was blessed with. My wife if I had one would be 100 devoted to Christ, Mr, and the children.

    Jeff. Much of what you want is fine for your children. Yourself. You must understand that all of it could be gone. Lost or taken away. That is the trust Christ needs in that one flesh between a man and a woman.

  252. earlthomas786 says:

    She agreed to it and said she was up for it. After we had our romp, I drove her back to her car and went home. When she realized a few days later that I had no intention of ever seeing her again, she WENT OFF! Threatened to track me down and do a drive-by on my house (made sure to emphasize that she had a gun), threatened to accuse me of rape, etc.

    And that’s why a woman’s consent to sex as the basis for sexual morality or legality is as flimsy as toliet paper.

    That’s why I ascribe to sexual morality being objective…based on how God set it up in the natural law. It’s only for a man and women in marriage. Everything else outside of that can lead to bad consequences.

  253. Jeff Strand says:

    feeriker: “Really, Jeff? It’s neither rocket science nor a painful sacrifice if you’re both grounded, share common values, and have realistic expectations for what kind of lifestyle you can live on the resources you have.”

    Yep, actually I do it too. Been doing it for almost two decades. Sorry if I was unclear about that.

    Agree with you regarding your comments about college. However, I happen to live in a state that has a Prepaid College Plan with a guaranteed outcome, and when my kids were little the thing was an absolute steal. We’re talking $100 monthly per kid, which ends when they’re 18, and in return they are guaranteed to have full tuition covered at any public university in our state. No matter how much tuition actually costs by the time they attend.

    So obviously, I could not turn down a deal that good, so I signed them both up and locked them into the program back when they were a toddler and a baby. The result is that both my girls have a free college education (4 year degree from a state university) waiting for them if they should so desire. College may be overrated, but it can’t HURT you to have a degree…as long as there is no debt involed. (If they don’t attend college I get 100% of my principal contributions back, while the state keeps any interest they earned on it over the years)

  254. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason,

    That was a nice speech and all, but the fact remains. If I’m a hot young chick with a lot going for me as a potential wife and mother (to say nothing of being a bona-fide NAWALT), I’m not marrying a guy unless I can at least see the POTENTIAL that he can financially support a family. That’s his responsibility as the husband and father – to be the breadwinner and support his wife and children.

    And that’s how it should be. If some dope gives me a line about how “we can live on our love, doesn’t matter if we live in a shelter or crash on friends’ couches”, I am outta there. And you can bet my daughters will be taught well enough to bail also.

    It’s not about being materialistic. The guy doesn’t have to be rich and drive a Jag. But shirking his responsibility to provide comfortably for his family rules him out as husband material – certainly rules him out for a NAWALT, who is in incredible demand in the marriage market (everyone who’s even slightly red pill wants a NAWALT) and can have her pick of guys.

    But again, you do do. Good luck with that.

  255. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “And that’s why a woman’s consent to sex as the basis for sexual morality or legality is as flimsy as toliet paper.”

    Lot of truth to that.

    A friend who’s divorced and in his 40’s is playing the field. He’s into plate spinning, so he’s always dating different broads, and bedding most of them. His habit is, as soon as possible after being physical with them (esp the first time), text them…and get the girl to say something positive about the experience in the text, that clearly shows she consented and was an enthusiastic participant. Those texts can be shown to the police later, if necessary.

    At first I thought he was being a bit paranoid. Now I think he’s just being smart.

  256. seventiesjason says:

    So if you lost your job. The big crash came. You were unemployed and you could not provide for your family your NAWALT wife has permission to bail?

    That is more of an AWALT.

    Nice little speech?

    Shows me by that phrase alone of what you think of Jesus.

    Your pompus attitude will smack you back and hard one day. I was unstoppable in 1998. I pulled over 120k that year. I knew it all. Pride comes before a fall…..

    What are you trying to prove here? I like the banter…..but you aost have a desperation to prove how “right’ or ” amazing” you are that you’re missing the bigger picture

  257. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason: “So if you lost your job. The big crash came. You were unemployed and you could not provide for your family your NAWALT wife has permission to bail?”

    That’s not what I’m saying, and I think you know that. The vows are for “better or worse”, and that includes financial difficulties, health problems and sickness, etc, etc.

    What I SAID was, prior to getting married, in the dating and courtship stage, if the young lady does not see an indication that the young man has at least the POTENTIAL to support a family (and that he’s a hard worker), she should end it with him, move on, and find someone more suitable.

    If you disagree, then you disagree. No skin off my nose.

  258. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jeff Strand
    If I’m a hot young chick with a lot going for me as a potential wife and mother (to say nothing of being a bona-fide NAWALT), I’m not marrying a guy unless I can at least see the POTENTIAL that he can financially support a family.

    But you are not a hot chick, and you are not a single woman under 30. You also don’t know anything about how women under 30 think in 2017. So you don’t know what you are talking about.

    Deep Strength’s plan remains the best for Earl and men like him. Not your trips down memory lane to the days when you could have lots of sex with girls just like your daughters will be in a few years…

  259. Novaseeker says:

    His habit is, as soon as possible after being physical with them (esp the first time), text them…and get the girl to say something positive about the experience in the text,

    Not the worst idea, but better is to actually have her do it in response to the encounter, due to after care that doesn’t involve texts. Texting for men … exceptionally sparing, like very sparing, is the only way to go really. Aftercare, not texts.

    You also don’t know anything about how women under 30 think in 2017. So you don’t know what you are talking about.

    True there — but he is saying his daughters are/will be exceptional NAWALTs who can command a premium.

  260. Anon says:

    Novaseeker,

    True there — but he is saying his daughters are/will be exceptional NAWALTs who can command a premium.

    They all think that. Susan Walsh was adamant that her daughter really was a perfect 10 in the eyes of men (perfect 10s being 0.1% or fewer, even among prime-age women).

    Given the various stipulations Jeff Strand has provided, here in almost-2018, a disproportionate share of the men his daughters can attract are likely to be Asian-Americans (the last major concentration of men set to earn $300K+ but with beta upbringings oriented towards marriage). Is he up for that? Is there a height minimum that he seeks in his son-in-law?

  261. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jeff Strand: The chemistry must be in place too. … if not, she’s wise to nip things in the bud.

    Not wise. Chemistry often requires time to develop and grow.

    That is why there are so many office romances. People who initially feel no chemistry will begin to feel it over time, if they spend much time together. This has been shown scientifically. Something to do with hormones and bonding. It’s apparently a survival trait, to be able to bond with people you spend time with.

    But foolish women are impatient. They expect an instant spark.

    No spark? Next!

    This was very frustrating to me in my younger, dating years. I’d sometimes go on first dates with women for whom I felt no great passion. (Hey, we just met.) But I could see she was pretty enough, even if no great beauty. And she seemed friendly and interesting enough. I would have liked to have gone on a few more dates to get to know her. (First dates are tense, job interview like affairs. A poor way to know someone.)

    But she’d immediately cross me off her list. If no instant spark, then no chance to give it time, see if some feelings might develop.

    Studies have shown that women decide on whether they’re interested in a man in a ridiculously short period of time. I forget the number. But it seems women are growing every less patient for instant tingles.

  262. Sigma Frame says:

    Feeriker, Trump ran the Miss America pageants. Enough said.

  263. earlthomas786 says:

    Studies have shown that women decide on whether they’re interested in a man in a ridiculously short period of time. I forget the number. But it seems women are growing every less patient for instant tingles.

    Something like 5 minutes.

    I’m the same way…there’s some initial attraction to have the motivation to ask for a date, but I found it would grow the more I got to know her. All sparks do is start a fire, but they don’t maintain it.

  264. earlthomas786 says:

    But you are not a hot chick, and you are not a single woman under 30. You also don’t know anything about how women under 30 think in 2017. So you don’t know what you are talking about.

    This is what I would tell Jeff most women I’ve encountered under 30 think.

    They aren’t looking for marriage, they aren’t looking for marriage minded men, they aren’t even looking for men who display good husband or marriage traits. They are looking for fun, feelings, experiences, trips, tingles, career, etc. It’s only when their ovaries start to ache do they decide, jeez maybe I should get married so I can have a kid (unless they are a single mother already). And that happens around 30…but they haven’t been discerning what traits a man would display to be a good husband or father so they choose the first willing victim and think they settled. Plus they haven’t been cultivating any helpmate, homemaking or motherlike skills…so all they got is decreasing looks, little skills, and baggage. Birth control and feminism is not how women in their 20s should operate.

    So if his daughters are really going to be as great as he says they are…they should already have the mindset they want to get married and be a mother and have the traits that make them an attractive enough helpmate to secure an up and coming man’s commitment. They better not be on birth control and having sex with men who aren’t their husband. And those traits are what women are SUPPOSED to be. The only reason why they seem so high value now is that most women are terrible at being what they are suppose to be.

  265. seventiesjason says:

    Lol!

    When I was on a Christian Dating Site……..had a profile up for what? Almost two years. A few looks, but no dates. I on the other hand checked out, dropped smiles to well over 300. The Beatles song “No Reply” was a good answer.

    A strange reality on ALL the profiles of women my age (and I was looking at women my age. A few years younger, a few years older)

    EVERY woman had accepted Christ as a little girl, and of course it was the most amazing day of her life, of course came from an amazing, devout, Godly family that put Jesus above everything………….then “she rebelled” but even in that rebellion she knew she belonged to Jesus, and she knew that Christ Jesus had never given up on her………so here she is at 45-47. Has a few kids (almost all of the women, their kid(s) were out of high school or just finishing up). Reconnected with church. Divorced or never married. A few are grandmas already (a grandma at 40-45????????)

    Now….now she really wants a devout, holy, amazing Godly man to LEAD and (get ready for the current Protestant Christian buzz-phrase) ” to be the man God called him to be”

    Yes, must be “easy on the eyes” established, have this, have that….oh yes….must be FUNNY. Every guy had to be funny. More than a few women who were my age stated in their profile: Balding and men with gray hair. Don’t contact me. WOW. You’re mid forties….we want to be authentic……yet no man with gray hair can contact you. Wow!

    Not one. Out of hundreds of profiles none had any REPENTANCE in them. Okay, looks fade. I get it. She didn’t have to be *hot* for me. She ha to look good for her AGE. She had to have something about her that was *cool* and OUTSIDE of church. Yes, it’s wonderful she served on this group and that committee…I want a woman living a Christian walk outside of church with something she does. None had that, or very, very few.

    The repentance thing. Like the Hebrews before her in the desert. They could not be taught. They refused to learn. They whined, griped, turned on each other and blamed OTHERS for their sorrow. We forget that NONE of the Exodus saw the promised land. These women, despite “accepting” Jesus as a little girl, and it being the “most amazing day of her life” never learned a thing. Even in her forties…..she admits rebellion but never a repentance, Godly sorrow or even a “Hey I was a bad girl, and I learned. I am not her anymore.”

    I am a man with a drug past. I honked up a grip of cocaine. Dropped enough LSD to power up a Grateful Dead show. Man, I could drink. I was pathetic. Did a lot of things that were really sinful. bad. Wrong. I repented. Made amends. Spent TIME healing. Lived by action and deeds. Not words or “promises”

    I would forgive a woman of a lot. Of her worldly past. Probably more than many men here would. Though I NEED to see actual repentance. I don’t. Not from these online women, and fewer in the churches I attend.

  266. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “So if his daughters are really going to be as great as he says they are…they should already have the mindset they want to get married and be a mother and have the traits that make them an attractive enough helpmate to secure an up and coming man’s commitment.”

    A couple commenters alluded to the fact that I claim my daughters will be “all that”, and will be everything any man can ask for, etc. This makes me uncomfortable, because it sounds like I’m bragging. And no one likes a braggart.

    Guys, I can’t guarantee how my daughters will turn out. I’ll def be praying for them…and their future husbands. However, it is the case that my wife and I are specifically raising them to be NAWALT’s. We are hopeful they will accept this, and not rebel against it later. Specifically, we are raising them:

    – to have good Christian values, and to pray everyday
    – to view their future husband as the head of the household, and to happily submit to him
    – to guard their virtue when they start dating
    – to keep themselves in good shape and stay pretty (do their nails, be good with makeup)
    – to act feminine (soft spoken, demure, sweet, polite, etc)
    – they take sewing and cooking classes and are about to start formal etiquette lessons
    – to not participate in masculine sports – instead they play girl’s tennis
    – to not over-do their education or become a career girl, but to choose a job/skill that can support them while they are single, and can change to flexible hours once they have a family. Also, one that’s not such a big investment that they can’t walk away and become a full time housewife. Examples are dental hygienist, physical therapist, X-ray tech, flight attendant, etc
    – to love kids, see them as a blessing from God, and look forward to motherhood
    – to view marriage as a Sacrament, as forever, and to view divorce as unacceptable
    – to view marriage and family as more important than material or career success
    – to view feminism and cultural Marxism as the cancer they are
    – to have the critical thinking skills to recognize Leftist propaganda, and to reject it

    There’s probably a few things I’m forgetting, but that should give you a good idea of how we’re raising them. It is the very definition of a NAWALT. Hopefully, lots of other parents are raising their daughters the same way (and those with sons are raising them to be redpilled, greater Beta’s).

    For those who do have a son that you’re putting the effort in to raise to be a greater Beta, my story should give you hope and inspire you. When your sons are in the dating market, there will be NAWALT’s out there, who will be actively looking for greater Beta’s to mate with for life. Just have to find them. Perhaps we should start up a redpilled dating site or matchmaking service?

  267. Swanny River says:

    70s Jason, the website experience isn’t on topic, but edifying anyhow. You know, the typical churchian will call you a bully probing for repentance. They will excuse the lack of repentance somehow, chalking it up to a woman’s different nature. Dalrock hits the Protestants fear about rebellion confrontation squarely, and often, so we have that at least.

  268. javier_mendoza says:

    I’ve pointed out for a long time that the cultural taboo of women cooking has only made women who do cook that much more desirable as wives and girlfriends.

    I’ve heard many women complain, “I shouldn’t have to cook for a man!” to which I reply, “No but it’s something really easy you can do which he will appreciate and will make him like you more than other women.” Why WOULDN’T women want that? It’s like intentionally leaving work experience or credentials off your resume.

  269. Novaseeker says:

    When I was on a Christian Dating Site……..had a profile up for what? Almost two years. A few looks, but no dates. I on the other hand checked out, dropped smiles to well over 300. The Beatles song “No Reply” was a good answer.

    This is normal, don’t worry much about it. Online dating suffers from the same issue that Instagram does: huge numbers of thirsty men and women who have so much virtual attention they have “asks” that are +3-4 SMV above their actual SMV. It’s a waste for most men most of the time — if you are well average in looks, it can work, but then again, if you are well above average in looks, why worry about online dating, because you can work well in any context if you have a little bit of social skill.

  270. Gunner Q says:

    American @ November 26, 2017 at 8:47 pm:
    “Being an anti-feminist single MGTOW, I took the bait of course. “How can you slap those pork chops down on the conveyor spreading bacteria all over it which could make innocent people ill? Are you that stupid, that evil, or both?”

    “I’ll leave the rest to the reader’s imagination but yes she turned red with rage and began screeching. I never backed down an inch.”

    I like your style and would subscribe to your newsletter.

    Mom guilted me into attending church yesterday. They promoted a Christmas toy drive for the local women’s and children’s shelter… yeah, no men… and the flier said toy weapons like nerf swords and squirt guns were inappropriate for the children. The moment service was over, I made a beeline for the after-service “prayer partners” and made my mind heard.

    Would’ve confronted the pastor in front of everybody but I’m not convinced publicly attacking the AMOG as an outsider would be effective. Better to Red-Pill the second tier.

    Jeff Strand @ November 26, 2017 at 1:34 pm:
    “True to a point. But I don’t think most young men are ready for marriage at 21 to 23.”

    But young men need sex by age 21. Per God, marriage is the only legit way to get it. This is a question of need, not readiness.

    Were you a virgin when you married at age 31? Were you even N<10? Young men want to do right by God but you want to do right by Princess.

  271. Dalrock says:

    @Jeff Strand

    Likewise, a girl shouldn’t marry a guy unless he gives her the tingles, hard. Because otherwise, she’s in basically the same situation as the gal who marries her beta orbiter. And that rarely ends well.

    Agreed. It can work, but it isn’t something I would advise entering into on purpose. However, you frame this as a problem solely for men looking to marry, or similarly a problem for fathers of sons looking to marry:

    So such women will be out there and available for marriage. This is why I was encouraging to Jimmy a number of posts back. But young men like him had best plan on putting in some serious effort to make themselves competitive, as I expect girls raised like my daughters will command a very high value once they are in the dating and marriage market. They will only be looking to marry upper betas, because that’s how I’m raising them.

    The wife and I are not going to all this effort to raise them to be NAWALTS so they can marry any old loser who comes along. As NAWALTS they will know how rare they are, meaning they know their value, and I will teach them to seek out and marry a “greater Beta”, like their mom did.

    I’m hesitant to chime in on this, because it is your rightful place as a father to decide how you want your daughters to seek a husband. I also would prefer not to make this so personal, about your daughters (or my own daughter), but to discuss this in a more general sense.

    With the above caveats in mind, I would encourage you to at least consider the question from another angle. Is attraction really not the woman’s/father’s problem to solve? You are I think assuming that good Christian men who are very sexy and very successful financially are in a surplus. You may be right, but personally I’m not convinced. I would at least encourage you to consider how you would approach the same topic if you felt that sexy/godly/successful Christian men were instead a scarce commodity. In such a hypothetical situation, a father of a traditional daughter would I think have a different focus. Instead of challenging other men to be good enough for his daughters, a father in that (entirely different) situation would I think focus on:

    1) Coming up with strategies to out compete other fathers of daughters in the search for a very limited pool of the best potential husbands.

    2) Attempt to manage his own and his daughters’ expectations for what kind of husband they can expect to command. This would then involve considering the trade offs. If she can’t get everything, where might she adjust her expectations? If a young traditional woman can’t demand rich, sexy, and godly, where could some compromise be made? Take the sexy criteria for example. There are after all two ways a woman can find a man attractive. The man can have tight enough game to overcome all of her shit tests, or the woman can choose to submit to her husband, and to humble herself such that she sees him as her leader and therefore finds him attractive. These are hypothetical extremes, but the important take away I think is in the potential to dial this in between the extremes. There is also the issue of women developing a taste for more alpha, and then missing it later on.

    Note that a shortage of godly/sexy/rich husbands could be the case even admitting that chaste traditional Christian women who want to marry young are also a scarce commodity. This isn’t an either/or situation. I would argue that we both have a shortage of godly submissive prospective wives, and a shortage of godly sexy rich prospective husbands.

  272. Jeff Strand says:

    Nova,

    All you said is true, but I would just add that it depends on your audience as well. If you are going after beautiful girls in their early to mid 20’s, good luck. Because as you say, they get a hundred messages a day.

    My divorced buddy on the other hand, uses dating sites all the time to prey on women in their 40’s, who are either divorced single moms, or spinsters. They all want marriage. My buddy, who’s very redpill, knows exactly how to play them. He shows enough Alpha to get their tingles going, but enough Beta to make them think he would consider marriage (he’ll say things like “I miss being a husband”). It’s like catnip to these broads. Of course, he actually has no intention of ever marrying again.

    My buddy has some status because he has a Master’s degree and a career in the field of education, although he doesn’t make much money. He’s mentally quite sharp. Physically, he’s not movie star looks….but I kept telling you guys that’s not necessary! But what he did do was stay somewhat in shape (not meaning he’s ripped, just means he didn’t let himself get fat), and he’s blessed to still have a full head of hair. That’s it. It’s more about his “game”, which he has now perfectly honed, than looks.

    And he has succes on these dating sites like you wouldn’t believe! While he maintains a steady gf, he’s nailing a different one of these dating site chicks every week! He’s a kid in a candy store. And he keeps exclaiming to me, “Dude, it’s sooooo easy!” He means, it’s easy to meet random chicks online, and get into their panties with very little investment of time or money. He will often deliberately treat them badly, then call them out of the blue a couple weeks later to set up a f-ck session – and they do it! Unreal!

    Needless to say, he now has ZERO respect for women. And it’s good that he doesn’t ever want to remarry, as I think he is now ruined as husband material. As for the chicks he deals with, they’re all lonely, desperate, and depressed.

    Fruits of feminism I suppose. As Trump would say, Sad!

    P.S. So not surprised Jason has no success on dating sites. I just can’t picture him working the kind of game that my divorced buddy has perfected. Because my buddy knows his target demographic, knows how to play those chicks like a fiddle, and goes for it. He doesn’t sit around feeling sorry for himself – he flipped the tables on these modern bitchez, and now he’s just killing it!

  273. Jeff Strand says:

    Dalrock,

    Thanks for the input.

    Yes, I agree that greater Beta’s (as I have described them) are def in the minority. No question. Even so, the commenters here on your site have made it clear that there is NOTHING scarcer than a NAWALT…who is a veritable unicorn.

    Therefore, even the limited number of greater Beta’s will appear to be a huge number, when compared to the minuscule, vanishingly small number of NAWALT’s (if your readers are correct). This implies that there won’t be enough NAWALT’s to go around, and the greater Beta’s will have to compete with each other to snag one. Some will get left out, and have to go without – either going MGTOW, or rolling the dice and marrying an AWALT.

    This being the case, an actual NAWALT is fully justified in approaching finding her greater Beta from a place of abundance, and a position of strength. She is in great, almost overwhelming demand. She is the one who gets to choose. Especially in the flower of her youth, when her stock is highest,

    Why is this so? Because, thanks to feminism, so many young girls are raised to be unsuitable wife material. And so few are specifically raised by their parents to be NAWALTS.

  274. Novaseeker says:

    Jeff —

    Women in their 40s who are divorced? Sure, that’s easy enough, but also easy offline (and easier).

  275. earlthomas786 says:

    Yeah older divorced single moms is like shooting fish in a barrell for cads. They are in peak desperation mode. But I guess Eat, Prey, Love never shows those consequences to divorcing.

  276. feministhater says:

    NAWALTs do not exist, neither do perfect men. You’re playing a shadow game. If you want your daughters to marry well, adjust their expectations, give them knowledge and means on how to decipher a good man from a bad one, get them to start their search young, to focus on potential, where the man is heading and not his net worth. They have to make the sacrifices as much as the man, they need to have skin in the game. If your daughter finds a good man that she is attracted to and is likewise interested in her, get her to support him, get them married and support them with advice and even finance but only where absolutely necessary. The ideal that your daughters are unicorns is rivaled only by your delusions of grandeur. You’re an ordinary man like the rest of us, your daughters are ordinary girls like the rest of them. They’re not special snowflakes.

    Unicorns do not exist. Adjust accordingly. I say this only because I would see if you’re really interested in finding your daughters worthy men and making them be worthy wives.

    So not surprised Jason has no success on dating sites. I just can’t picture him working the kind of game that my divorced buddy has perfected. Because my buddy knows his target demographic, knows how to play those chicks like a fiddle, and goes for it. He doesn’t sit around feeling sorry for himself – he flipped the tables on these modern bitchez, and now he’s just killing it!

    It’s stuff like this that makes me doubt you have any sincerity in your posts. Jason sticks to a standard, one set out as a Christian standard, your friend does not.

  277. anonymous_ng says:

    Single men seem to be over represented everywhere according to these maps.

    https://www.citylab.com/equity/2015/02/where-in-the-us-are-there-more-single-men-than-women/385369/

  278. Dalrock says:

    @Jeff Strand

    This being the case, an actual NAWALT is fully justified in approaching finding her greater Beta from a place of abundance, and a position of strength. She is in great, almost overwhelming demand. She is the one who gets to choose. Especially in the flower of her youth, when her stock is highest,

    In other words, she is a prize to be won, and should think of herself accordingly. Yet paradoxically, this very attitude excludes her from the NAWALT category.

  279. PokeSalad says:

    Women are also good at plausible deniability. But it’s still a choice they made even if ‘it just happened’.

    “You cheated because you are an asshole. I cheated because I was confused.”

  280. earlthomas786 says:

    “You cheated because you are an asshole. I cheated because I was confused.”

    You got it.

  281. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    seventiesjason: More than a few women who were my age stated in their profile: Balding and men with gray hair. Don’t contact me.

    That one’s ridiculous. Every man (and woman) in their mid forties has gray hair. The only way they don’t is by coloring it. Every fortysomething Hollywood cougar or rock star has gray hair.

    Well, maybe not a few genetic rarities. A woman me that her father had naturally blond hair till the day he died, well into old age. But that’s very rare.

  282. earlthomas786 says:

    In other words, she is a prize to be won, and should think of herself accordingly. Yet paradoxically, this very attitude excludes her from the NAWALT category.

    Yup…because even the dregs of women have pretty high self esteem in themselves.

    She is in great, almost overwhelming demand. She is the one who gets to choose.

    Ever wonder where hypergamy comes from?

  283. earlthomas786 says:

    If Jeff’s daughters think as highly of themselves as he does…they’ll be exiting the husband store with no one. Hopefully they are humble.

  284. Jeff Strand says:

    Dalrock: “In other words, she is a prize to be won, and should think of herself accordingly. Yet paradoxically, this very attitude excludes her from the NAWALT category.”

    It’s a fine line. A bitchy attitude of “I’m a princess and I expect to be pedastalized, even while I remain unaccountable for my actions”? Yep, that’s AWALT all the way.

    But I think it’s appropriate for a true NAWALT to have an accurate idea of her high value in the dating and marriage market, and to realize how rare her kind is. This isn’t a bitchy or bad attitude, it’s just an acknowledgement of the facts. And remember, you never want to proceed based on false assumptions, you always need to deal with reality as it is.

    Maybe you disagree with me (and with your entire readership, who are convinced NAWALT’s are as rare as unicorns) in my assertion that NAWALT’s, given their rarity and desirability, should have no problem selecting a greater Beta to wife them up and take care of them for life. If so, I don’t know how we can determine who’s right. Obviously, in my case, I really only care how things turn out for my daughters. But not only will that take a decade or two to play out, but in any case it can only ever be anecdotal.

  285. Jack Russell says:

    This will not surprise most of the readers here. Justine Trudeau of Canada is a good example.
    https://www.studyfinds.org/last-name-marriage-masculinity/

  286. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    In other words, she is a prize to be won, and should think of herself accordingly. Yet paradoxically, this very attitude excludes her from the NAWALT category.

    Jeff Strand appears to be quite proud of his humility. No doubt he urges his daughters to do the same.

  287. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jeff Strand
    A bitchy attitude of “I’m a princess and I expect to be pedastalized, even while I remain unaccountable for my actions”? Yep, that’s AWALT all the way.

    Additionally that’s you all the way. Naturals often have similar behavior to women in some ways…

  288. Jeff Strand says:

    “Additionally that’s you all the way. Naturals often have similar behavior to women in some ways…”

    Dude, reign in your jealousy. It’s not very becoming.

  289. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    The concept of NAWALT is that there are none. Every woman (like every man) has an inner demon. Every woman is a Daughter of Eve.

    Every woman is always capable, and at risk, of reverting to her Inner Eve. No matter how she was raised, or how long she’s behaved well, the temptation is always there.

    A good woman is aware that she is no unicorn, that she is Fallen, and flawed, and imperfect, and a sinner, and must fight her sinful nature every day.

    But if she imagines that she is NAWALT and a unicorn, she will more easily develop a princess complex and revert to her sinful nature.

  290. Gunner Q says:

    “Obviously, in my case, I really only care how things turn out for my daughters.”

    That’s exactly the problem. That’s matriarchy. We’re trying to break you of it by pointing out how this attitude leaves virtuous men starving while your daughters wait in line for the Alphas (or “greater Betas”) to decide they’re tired of sleeping around. It’d be great if you were the first Alpha of our acquaintance to give a care for your fellow man.

  291. feministhater says:

    I would just point out that the link by anon-ng points out exactly what we all already know. When men are young, there tends to be lots of single men compared to women, when they reach 34, that switches and then it tends to be mostly single women by a large margin.

    Interesting to see it all ‘mapped out’

  292. anonymous_ng says:

    @FH, I’ve been thinking about that. The only explanation for that map is that in general, men marry younger women, so young men are left out, and middle-aged and older women are spinsters.

  293. Jeff Strand says:

    Gunner: “It’d be great if you were the first Alpha of our acquaintance to give a care for your fellow man.”

    Sorry, but first priority is family. I’m not going to conduct myself, nor raise my daughters, to try to fix the whole dating and marriage market that the feminists destroyed.

    I worked on myself to the point that I became a greater Beta. After dating a number of women, I found a NAWALT and wifed her up. We are now raising our daughters to be NAWALT’s and will teach them to seek out and marry a greater Beta, just like their mom did. (If we had sons, we would raise them to be greater Beta’s, and teach them to seek out and marry a NAWALT, just like their dad did)

    I see nothing there to apologize for. I can’t change the whole society and I’m not going to waste my time trying. I have enough on my plate in providing for my family and raising my kids, and still trying to make sure I get to Heaven.

    Why don’t you devote yourself to trying to change the modern American dating and marriage market? Good luck with that.

  294. feministhater says:

    That’s half of it anon_ng. It’s obviously older men and younger women but also divorced men finding younger women whilst their divorced wives tend to crash out after 45 or so; also includes those women who never cashed their chips in and never married.

  295. feministhater says:

    Your family will not do well without finding a like minded community within which to find solace and stability and a belonging. If you’re found such a community, you really shouldn’t be here telling us about your daughters, you should be minding them, securing their futures and giving back to said community.

  296. feministhater says:

    Gah, where’s a comment editor when you need one….

  297. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jeff Strand
    “Additionally that’s you all the way. Naturals often have similar behavior to women in some ways…”

    Dude, reign in your jealousy. It’s not very becoming.

    Pointing out a fact is not jealousy. Consider reining in your ego. At the very least it will make trolling here a bit easier for you.

  298. Dalrock says:

    @Gunner Q

    “Obviously, in my case, I really only care how things turn out for my daughters.”

    That’s exactly the problem. That’s matriarchy. We’re trying to break you of it by pointing out how this attitude leaves virtuous men starving while your daughters wait in line for the Alphas (or “greater Betas”) to decide they’re tired of sleeping around. It’d be great if you were the first Alpha of our acquaintance to give a care for your fellow man.

    There is nothing wrong with driving the best bargain you can in the MMP, for men or for women. This isn’t the problem.

  299. feministhater says:

    Ah, but there’s realism though.. if a woman wants the best man she can ever get, she needs to find him when she’s younger, she needs to find him when he is on the upswing, not already there. It certainly doesn’t mean holding out for A grade in every category. When a woman does that, she puts herself up against all those women doing the exact same thing. Those men are in the driving seat, not her. She will not get chosen but she will most certainly be used.

    It would be wise for a daughter and her father to adjust her expectations accordingly.

  300. Jeff Strand says:

    FH,

    Why would anyone take advice from you on this topic? You are anti-marriage in any case.

    I’m willing to consider advice from men like Dalrock or RSM, who have achieved successful marriages. But your type, who can only whine “It’s impossible for any man to marry a good woman and have a happy marriage, so no one should even try”….what do you have to offer?

    You’re a one trick pony. “All women are evil, men should avoid them all, invest in a Real Doll, and certainly never marry and raise a family”….ok, we got it. Your position is noted. So for those of us who do choose to have families, you have nothing to offer. In this case, you should just LISTEN. Maybe you will learn something.

  301. feeriker says:

    Women in their 40s who are divorced? Sure, that’s easy enough, but also easy offline (and easier).

    Indeed. Building up a “soft harem” of over-40 women is horrifyingly easy if you have even mininal game and are not repulsive-looking (and you’d have to be the Elephant Man’s twin brother to be truly repulsive to many of these women). If you want sex on demand, go for it. Be advised, though, that you’re also going to get lots of serious batshit crazy with the deal. This is why it’s really not worth it.

  302. AnonS says:

    So the question is. What is the supply of lesser beta men and greater beta men, and can women even tell the difference?

    What is the supply of young women that actually want to be a wife when they are young (not just “married”)? This seems extremely small. I’ve seen 2, maybe 3, in my life out of a mega church of thousands.

  303. feministhater says:

    Don’t listen to me Jeff. I wish you luck. I was merely trying to see if you really wanted to find your daughters a husband.

    Just a little information. I’m anti modern marriage. I also believe Biblical marriage isn’t to be had for the majority of men and trying to find it will only lead to their being put through divorce court hell. Thus I advise against it.

    I don’t believe most traditionalists push Biblical marriage, I believe they push a tradcon version which I likewise find as screwed up as modern marriage. There are so few areas around this world where a man can lead a family and have a Biblical marriage. Few enough that I don’t think it worthwhile to spend my life searching for it. It’s not there for me.

    I believe in telling men all the pitfalls of marriage, that way they make an informed decision. Marriage as it stands is a bad deal for men and the chances of them finding a real, Biblical marriage are slim to non-existent. It seems to me that the so called marriages that run like that do so because the woman wants it to for the moment. She is the one with the real power in said marriage, with a government full of men with guns to make sure you comply. As I’ve said, I will not take such a deal and I see no real alternatives.

    Now you know.

  304. AnonS says:

    Seems that upper betas have to travel to Asia to get out of the invisible zone, just to stand out as a guy wealthy enough to travel and different from the local population.

    It seems being on the radar and having to filter out consumption focused girls is easier then being invisible and having nothing to filter.

  305. Jeff Strand says:

    “What is the supply of young women that actually want to be a wife when they are young (not just “married”)? This seems extremely small. I’ve seen 2, maybe 3, in my life out of a mega church of thousands.”

    That jibes well with the common opinion here, that NAWALT’s are exceedingly rare.

  306. Jeff Strand says:

    FH: ” Marriage as it stands is a bad deal for men and the chances of them finding a real, Biblical marriage are slim to non-existent. It seems to me that the so called marriages that run like that do so because the woman wants it to for the moment.”

    Well, in my case “the moment” is now 17 years, and counting. And I see no sign of it changing.

    Overall, I understand your cynicism…given the tremendous damage the feminists have done to the MMP. You are a viewpoint to be considered, for a young man weighing the pros and cons of marriage.

    But your views are no help to those of us who have chosen to build a family. Or who want to encourage our children to marry well, and give us grandkids someday.

  307. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Be advised, though, that you’re also going to get lots of serious batshit crazy with the deal. This is why it’s really not worth it.’

    That’s the case no matter what age or status of the woman is if your only imperative is to sleep with her. Most dont take too kindly to pump and dumps.

  308. feministhater says:

    But your views are no help to those of us who have chosen to build a family. Or who want to encourage our children to marry well, and give us grandkids someday.

    I’m not here to help you Jeff. I’m here to be a different side of the argument when it comes to marriage. I’m here to provide the opposite end of the spectrum. I’ve told others here before. You cannot save yourself and your family by being on a forum, it’s not going to work. You need to start small and you need to start local. If you’re doing this already then that’s great but then you wouldn’t need to worry about what I say since I’m not a part of your community.

    I’m finished with all of that though. I’m old enough to have tried to start and have a family in my twenties and also old enough now to know it now isn’t for me. For all my rants I live a pretty good life for which I’m grateful for.

    I’m just a barometer for what happens when men spend a good portion of their young lives single. We don’t end up wanting to get married anymore.

  309. Gunner Q says:

    Dalrock @ 1:56 pm:
    “There is nothing wrong with driving the best bargain you can in the MMP, for men or for women. ”

    Of course. I’m arguing for “best bargain among hopeful young men” rather than “best bargain among established, successful men”. A large part of matriarchy and current romantic imbalances is that women don’t want to marry unproven men. Jeff is enabling that attitude.

    The cruel irony is that most established, successful men had something going for them when they were young… a mentor, money for that technical certificate, a wife who made those long hours bearable. As you have pointed out, delayed marriage results in delayed providership because the incentives are lacking.

    It’s soul-crushing to tell a man at 18 that nobody is going to be interested in him until he’s 28.

  310. seventiesjason says:

    Long long time ago…..I was at a house party in SF. Not in my neighborhood. It was huge. Police crashed it and sent everyone home around 5am.

    I was probably about 26. It was the co-founder of Yahoo’s (Filo) house. Here’s a super rich guy. An innovator in the early dot.com era. Fame. He was on the cover of magazines back then. This party was loud, off the hook….that band “broken social scene” was playing on the roof. Maybe five women there. A house full of men. Young (20’s). No one was bald (yet), no bad haircuts and thick glasses. Dressed casual to suits (Myself. I arrived right after work). Varied topics. No one was talking “comic books” or “animee”

    Next day. Local news section of “The San Francisco Chronicle” the headline was: SF’s techie party broken up by police, disturbing the peace”

    The subheading said “grown boys with no social skills decided to stay home Friday night”

    The press never lack for a good story. And no mention that the average salary of a attendee at this party was probably pulling in 100k a year.

    In the same paper, same day in the “lifestyle” section was “Where to meet young career minded men in SF” and the results were grim. Evidently there were zero career minded men in SF.

  311. earlthomas786 says:

    It’s soul-crushing to tell a man at 18 that nobody is going to be interested in him until he’s 28.

    My good friend who is 23 even voiced his angst with the fact that he’s too young to have anything to offer to the women who are 25-29 range, and too old for the women who are in college because they’ll want to get the degree and are not looking to be married. Unless you happen to be lucky that time frame between 22-26 for young men is not great for marriage prospects.

    And Gunner’s right…if you are following God’s will the only place sex is licit in marriage but you also have hormones raging all the time with plenty of temptations. This societal experiment we’ve put men and women in is faciliting more degeneracy and ruining marriage more than anything.

  312. feministhater says:

    Lol Jason, I’m sure the irony wasn’t lost on them.

  313. earlthomas786 says:

    A good woman is aware that she is no unicorn, that she is Fallen, and flawed, and imperfect, and a sinner, and must fight her sinful nature every day.

    But if she imagines that she is NAWALT and a unicorn, she will more easily develop a princess complex and revert to her sinful nature.

    Or worse a goddess complex.

    I think other than overvaluing his daughters as NAWALTs, at least on the surface Jeff and his wife are doing a lot better raising them than most parents. Especially if they are raised to have a grateful attitude…that’s something sorely lacking in most women.

  314. Cane Caldo says:

    @Jeff

    Maybe you disagree with me (and with your entire readership, who are convinced NAWALT’s are as rare as unicorns) in my assertion that NAWALT’s, given their rarity and desirability, should have no problem selecting a greater Beta to wife them up and take care of them for life. If so, I don’t know how we can determine who’s right.

    There are no NAWALTs.

    There are women worth risking marriage upon. Those women put in work to daily crucify themselves and their worldly desires. But for none of us is there an end to that work; not until we die. Neither we nor women ever “arrive” at Good. We can be called to Good, want Good, and even pursue Good…but we never arrive at Good on this side of the pall.

  315. Jeff Strand says:

    “It’s soul-crushing to tell a man at 18 that nobody is going to be interested in him until he’s 28.”

    As always, YMMV. I had three different, steady girlfriends between 24 and 27, all of whom wanted to marry me. The third one I actually did propose to, but later broke off the engagement because I became convinced she wasn’t right for me.

    Now if you go much younger, say 18 to 21, I’m not convinced that a large percentage of men at that age want to be marred at that point in their life. If you have any actual data to back up your view, I’d love to see it. Otherwise, I’m skeptical. And I can tell you this – of all my circle of guy friends and acquaintances, back in the age range of 18, 19, 20, 21, I can’t think of a single one who wanted to be married at that point. Literally. Not one.

  316. Jeff Strand says:

    Cane: “There are no NAWALTs.
    There are women worth risking marriage upon.”

    Semantics.

    Here, if it makes you feel better. I married a “woman worth risking marriage upon”, and we’re raising our daughters to be “women worth risking marriage upon”.

    There. Feel better now?

  317. Cane Caldo says:

    @Jeff

    No, it’s not semantics. Those are very different statements.

    Here, if it makes you feel better. I married a “woman worth risking marriage upon”, and we’re raising our daughters to be “women worth risking marriage upon”.

    There. Feel better now?

    12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

  318. feministhater says:

    Well Jeff, your statements give yourself away. You had three steady girlfriends and you were………. sleeping with them..

    Now, go back in a time machine and do not sleep with them, actually keep your virginity intact and suffer 10 or more long years and then come back.

    You do realize that for every woman you slept with you removed another man’s virgin wife. Statistics matter, you yourself increased at least, that we know of, three other men’s divorce rate statistics.

  319. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “I think other than overvaluing his daughters as NAWALTs, at least on the surface Jeff and his wife are doing a lot better raising them than most parents. Especially if they are raised to have a grateful attitude…that’s something sorely lacking in most women.”

    I appreciate the back-handed compliment. But what “overvaluing”?

    I said that if my wife and I are successful in raising a couple of NAWALT’s, I expect that they will be able to lock down greater Beta’s to marry them and take care of them. That’s it.

    We shouldn’t expect that? That’s “overvaluing”? Then why are we even trying! Gimme a break.

  320. Jeff Strand says:

    Cane: “@Jeff
    No, it’s not semantics. Those are very different statements.”

    Ok. Sorry I didn’t realize how much smarter you are than I am. Now I clearly recognize my intellectual inferiority. Thank you for taking the time to correct me, when I’m sure you’re busy curing cancer.

    All apologies.

  321. Jeff Strand says:

    FH: “You do realize that for every woman you slept with you removed another man’s virgin wife. Statistics matter, you yourself increased at least, that we know of, three other men’s divorce rate statistics.”

    Damn, then I’ve sure slept with a lot of other dudes’ wives! LOL

    Anyway, in the case of these three, one became an old maid. One did marry and subsequently divorce, not because she was a non-virgin but because she was nuts! The other one has boyfriends come and go, but nobody wife’s her up…and she’s the only one of the three who ever had kids. So I am vindicated of your charge!

  322. feministhater says:

    Would like to quickly make a clarification. In my presumption I assumed that Jeff was dating virgin women, perhaps he only dated those who already lost theirs? I suppose he wouldn’t even have known so I take that back. No way to actually know. However, by increasing their partner count, there would still be the corresponding increase in divorce chances for the eventual hubby.

  323. feministhater says:

    Remember Jeff, it’s statistics, I didn’t say you would cause them to divorce, only that you would increase their chances.

  324. earlthomas786 says:

    I appreciate the back-handed compliment. But what “overvaluing”?

    Calling them NAWALTs. A realistic view is that you are trying to raise good, responsible, productive daughters…and nobody here would disagree with that parenting style (I hope). That was my dad told me his parenting goal was for my brother and I were kids.

  325. earlthomas786 says:

    *when we were

  326. Jeff Strand says:

    Also, if you plan on a virgin wife, and you don’t live in an insular religious community like the Amish or something, good luck in finding that.

    The vast majority of girls in the MMP are non-virgins. If you require virginity, you are eliminating like 98% right off the bat. Then add in all the other requirements you have, and it just ain’t happening.

    You’re probably right to just plan on staying alone.

  327. feministhater says:

    You’re probably right to just plan on staying alone.

    Oh, I know. That ship long since sailed.

  328. earlthomas786 says:

    If you require virginity, you are eliminating like 98% right off the bat.

    You make that sound like it’s a bad thing.

    What if I think I’m that high of value I should require a virgin as a bride?

  329. Jeff Strand says:

    FH: “Would like to quickly make a clarification. In my presumption I assumed that Jeff was dating virgin women, perhaps he only dated those who already lost theirs? I suppose he wouldn’t even have known so I take that back. No way to actually know. However, by increasing their partner count, there would still be the corresponding increase in divorce chances for the eventual hubby.”

    Of the three I mentioned, it’s indeed true that none were virgins when I met them. The youngest, at 19, was actually already married but separated. She was a piece of work – looked just like a young Kelly Bundy, and dressed like her too (in the first seasons of the show, where she was more slutty/sexy in a punk rock way…rather than her later seasons persona of just being a dumb, blonde bimbo)

    That chick was like sexual crack. So addictive. Anywhere I brought her, every head would turn. She was THAT hot. But today? My wife keeps an eye on her on Facebook. Now in her 40’s, she could pass for her 60’s, easily. Looks like a used up crack ho. Lives in a trailer park with her three kids, all from different dads. Never actually married (if you don’t count her first marriage at 18)

    Just noting like the young, sexy, vibrant girl I spent two years with. Boy, did I dodge a bullet!

  330. Cane Caldo says:

    Also, if you plan on a virgin wife, and you don’t live in an insular religious community like the Amish or something, good luck in finding that.

    Ah, I see. The posturing makes sense now.

  331. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “What if I think I’m that high of value I should require a virgin as a bride?”

    That’s your call. If that’s important for you, and you feel you can pull it off, more power to you. I’m skeptical, but I’d be happy for you to prove me wrong.

    Just curious – what approx age are you, and in what age range of girls will you be seeking your virgin bride? Because the answer to that will greatly effect my opinion on the feasibility of your plan.

  332. Jeff Strand says:

    Cane: “Ah, I see. The posturing makes sense now.”

    Enlighten us, oh brilliant one.

    By the way, what’s your qualification here? Did you marry a NAWALT? Are you single but maintain a harem of hotties? Perhaps you’re a pure Alpha who has a different chick every night?

    What?

  333. Novaseeker says:

    But a NAWALT would surely be a virgin at marriage, wouldn’t she?

  334. earlthomas786 says:

    Just noting like the young, sexy, vibrant girl I spent two years with. Boy, did I dodge a bullet!

    Well yeah she was an adulteror. I know what Proverbs says about men who go into her house.

  335. earlthomas786 says:

    Just curious – what approx age are you, and in what age range of girls will you be seeking your virgin bride?

    35. 23-27.

  336. earlthomas786 says:

    But a NAWALT would surely be a virgin at marriage, wouldn’t she?

    I’d think a 2 percenter would surely put a woman closer to that territory.

  337. seventiesjason says:

    Jeff

    In the 1990’s we both just ran with different scenes. I slowly fell into the drug-drink-art house crowd. At work it was all business until the addiction caught up with me. No women at my job. Going out back then. The group of guys I ran around with. Maybe one had a gf. The rest of us were single. None of us could get a date to save our lives. Chat up women? Ignored. Learn “game”? It was just a trained monkey routine with the same party jokes that never worked. Clubs? I belonged to an architecture club and was involved with teaching adults to read. The only clubs women did belong to were political / activism (and always a democrat / socialist bend or slant).

    You have no idea

    I imagine you were the guy when I was in a nightclub that was just better than average looking. Genetics. No one can choose them. Just a roll of the dice.

    I knew one man at IBM in my dept who was married at 20. He and his wife were pretty strict and devout Christians. They met at a conference or retreat at the end of high school. Halfway through college (both went to Stanford) they decided to get married. She was a nurse at SF General.

  338. Gunner Q says:

    Jeff Strand @ 3:04 pm:
    “If you have any actual data to back up your view, I’d love to see it.”

    T.E.S.T.O.S.T.E.R.O.N.E.

    Young men crave sex. I dare you to deny this.

    Christian young men are only allowed sex within marriage. I dare you to deny this.

    Therefore, you have a DUTY TO CHRIST to give your daughters to age <20 Christian men because that is the only form of continence those men are allowed and it's heartless cruelty to make them suffer another 5+ years of Internet-fueled temptation until they're finally useful enough to interest your snowflakes. It's not about you. Not about your daughters. Not even about those young men. It's about CHRIST, dammit. 1 Timothy 4:3, forbidding marriage is an evil act.

    I triple-dare you to say that your daughters marrying well is more important than caring about the sexually-frustrated Christian men around you.This is not a question of personal choice. This is Matthew 10:37,42. "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me… And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward."

    Your circle-jerk of friends were fellow Alphas and unchaste groupies who saw nothing wrong with playing the field before picking out a breeding cow. Of course they aren't like us, who would rather suffer for doing right! You wonder at our existence because you've never noticed or cared that unsexy men are people, too.

    You're a Christian now, Jeff. It's time to start caring about the less fortunates of society.

  339. feministhater says:

    The game being played here is exactly the same as the one an investor has to play when an investment continues to go up but that investor is well aware that there will be a eventual correction. When to cash in ones chips and exit the casino…

    In the case of daughters, it’s better to choose a man who is good and has potential than it is to wait for a man who is already set and has everything sorted out. The one allows your daughter to get some of what she wants and most of what she needs. The other one turns into a gamble that could eventually lead to her getting nothing.

  340. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “Well yeah she was an adulteror. I know what Proverbs says about men who go into her house.”

    Neither of us thought of it like that. She was kind of an atheist, and I was at a point in my life where I had fallen away from the Faith, like so many young adults do. Luckily I came back to it later.

    But even so, I knew something was off. Sometimes I’d spend the night at her place – she lived with her dad (it was an apt, and they each had their own bedroom). I got along fine with her dad and liked him, but felt weirded out when I would go to bed with her at night in her bedroom (her dad seemed fine with this). When we were getting it on, she’d ask me to try to not get too loud…out of respect for her dad – his bedroom shared the same wall. So kind of creepy.

    Even worse was when her husband she was separated from came back into town. With nowhere to go, he moved in with her dad. She was still living there half of the week (my roommates wouldn’t let me move her in with me full time). She made clear to her ex they were done, and he was fine with that. But I’d go and get her at the beginning of the weekend, and he’d be there. Sometimes I’d make small talk with him while she packed to come spend the weekend with me. He was always polite to me, but it was awkward to me. It’s like “Hi, I’m here for your wife”. Awkward, ya know?

    Why was I with this chick in the first place? Hard to explain. Sexually, she was amazing, of course…and would do anything I wanted, no matter how perverse. Bring another chick in? No prob. Experiement with bondage and submission? No prob. Go to live sex shows and nudie bars? No prob. Nothing was off limits with her.

    But there was more than that. For some reason we really clicked. We had just the best times together. We laughed, and partied, and went nightclubbing, and hung out with my friends and their gf’s, and went to concerts, and went on vacations out of town, and went on road trips together, and partied more. We had a restaurant/bar on the water that became “our place”. She didn’t nag me, and she was fun to be with. And esp the first year, she was absolutely enamored of me and infatuated with me. She would write me love letters. She was head over heels for me, and would cry anytime we had to be separated for a few days. Of course, this just endeared her to me more. And she acted like a woman and made me feel like a man. She loved to dress sexy for me. She would make out with me in a public place, whispering that “I want everyone here to know how crazy I am for you”.

    I knew I could never marry her, as she wasn’t wife material. But we fell in love with each other. And it was so passionate, so intense that it would have blown your mind. In my naivety, I thought all boyfriend/girlfriend romantic relationships were that passionate and intense! LOL

    We were together almost two years. A long time. Once it was over, I guess I was a bit of an “Alpha widow”. Between the time I broke up with her and the time I met my wife, was about 4 years. During that time, I dated a lot, had a couple serious gf’s, even got engaged for awhile. But I couldn’t duplicate that intensity and passion I had experienced with her, and I couldn’t stop looking for it. I’d think about her often – the places we went, the great times we had, the music we loved. I was truly behaving like the male version of an Alpha widow who’s missing her 5 minutes of Alpha. Isn’t that funny?

    When I met my wife, we had instant chemistry and couldn’t keep our hands off each other even on the first date. As we dated and I fell in love with her, I realized I never thought about that ex of mine anymore. I could finally mentally let her go. And that, among other reasons, is how I knew my wife was very special.

    Sorry for the length. Didn’t mean to pour my heart out, just got started and it all poured out.

  341. Jeff Strand says:

    Gunner,

    Wow. Ok, dude, good luck with that.

    I’m gonna disengage now. You do you.

  342. earlthomas786 says:

    Neither of us thought of it like that.

    But that’s what it was.

    It’s like “Hi, I’m here for your wife”. Awkward, ya know?

    I can’t imagine why.

    I knew I could never marry her, as she wasn’t wife material.

    That’s because she was already wife material…and apparently into a lot of illicit sex.

  343. Novaseeker says:

    Jason —

    Yeah, SF in general is really a very rough market. I was there in college during the late 80s and also had quite a few friends who stayed in the area in the 90s and could observe it — it was a pretty bad market, the sex ratio is way out of whack (sausage fest).

  344. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “That’s because she was already wife material…and apparently into a lot of illicit sex.”

    Yes, but you’re leaving something out. We were so young (she was 19-21 while we were together, I was 24-26) and passionately in love (and lust) with each other, that it almost hurt. It was overwhelming in its intensity. You can say it wasn’t really love, it was infatuation. And maybe that’s right. But that doesn’t change how deeply we felt each other. How strong the connection was.

    Have you ever had a relationship experience like that? I can tell you, it was amazing to experience. Especially in the first few months, when you had the additional intensity of the New Relationship Energy going, it was like being high all the time. It’s like we were high on each other, is only way I can explain it. We were just so into each other, nothing else in the entire world mattered,

    Like I said, picture a hot little 19 year old, 5’5″ and 115 pounds, with a great figure, dressed like Kelly Bundy in a leather miniskirt and halter top, with boots on and shiny pantyhose, turning every guy’s head. Going out nightclubbing with you, and being completely head over heels and infatuated with you. Pushing herself onto you sexually every day, sometimes more than once in a day (remember how young we were, lol). Tripping all your attraction triggers, acting feminine and submissive, making you feel like her white knight and her stud.. and so on,

    Powerful stuff. I’ll never understand how skilled she was at this, at just 19. How could I, or any mortal man, resist that? Now it all seems so foolish. And even though I now regret the sins I committed with her, part of me will always be grateful I had that experience of her…right or wrong, I can’t help but feel that way.

    I don’t even know why I’m telling all this. But every bit of it is true. Make of it what you will.

  345. seventiesjason says:

    Okay. You win Jeff.

    Guys like you my whole adult life have to tell me about their amazing dating life, sex life and how “alpha” or “upper beta” they are. How every girl was easily an 8 or 9 in the looks dept…and if she was average or ugly or fat……you were doing HER a favor by dating her, or banging her by your logic.

    Yes I am sure your wife is painfully hot and I bet your daughters are gonna be at least a 9 in looks.

    Great. You win the “game”

    You won. All hail! Fire a volley! (In the Salvation Army when that is said everyone in the meeting yells “Hallelujah”)

    Now what? Okay. Some if your smackerings have been useful. But to stomp in here like a PUA god and say ” just do this and this or that”

    And expect results? Come on! It would be like telling homeless street people to “just shower, shave, buy new clothing, study and you will be an investment banker”

    Look you won in that part of life. We’re honestly happy. I am anyway. However it doesn’t make you an expert on the many complex attributes of human sexual psychology and psychobiology.

    If I were married. I’m not. I won’t be. It’s cool. But if I were….I would at least be trying to understand….not enable, we’re all grown men here……or at least have some humility. The only big monkey allowed in here is the owner of this blog 🙂

  346. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Have you ever had a relationship experience like that?’

    Yes.

  347. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason,

    You’re misreading me.

    I described how hot (in a kind of slutty way) my ex was, not to brag or make myself look good, but because that’s what she really looked like. And it’s how I remember her. It’s the girl I fell in love with.

    I probably shouldn’t have posted all that info, agreed. But just know it wasn’t coming from a place of bragging. I sure don’t feel like someone bragging about a “win”. Nor am I that immature.

    It was coming from a place of nostalgia. It’s very bittersweet for me now to remember it, esp how I kept to trying to duplicate the intensity of that experience for years afterwards. How I couldn’t stop thinking about all the great times we had, esp when one of “our songs” would come on the radio. I had a heavy heart for a long time, which made me appreciate how hurt some girls I dated were when i knew they were interested in marriage, and I ended it. But that’s the deal right – we all risk heartbreak when we enter the dating market. You pays your ticket, and you takes your chances.

    So forgive me for going on, Jason. Bragging was the last thing on my mind. Talking about her just felt good…to relive some of those old memories. And I was partly, secretly hoping someone here reading that whole account would have some awesome insight in summing up the whole deal…where I would respond “Of course! Why hadn’t i thought of that!”. And it would make more sense to me or something.

    But I can’t put expectations like that on someone else, esp a stranger on a comment thread. So again, sorry for going into so much detail. No bragging, just wistful nostalgia for my youth. To be young and in love…

    I’m gonna go have a stiff drink.

  348. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “‘Have you ever had a relationship experience like that?’
    Yes.”

    Any insight to add? Anything familiar to you from my experience (if you don’t mind sharing)?

  349. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jeff is not a “greater Beta.” There is no such thing. Jeff is Alpha. And now that’s he’s settled and married, and apparently earns good money, he’s an Alpha Provider. Naturally, women love Alpha Providers. The best of both worlds.

    As was said before, Alphas just “don’t get” what it’s like for men who struggle for dates. I struggled for mine.

    Back in my 20s, in the 1980s, I tried video dating, computer dating, classified personal ads, even a psychic matchmaker based in “the Valley.” She had her client files on index cards, with Polaroid snapshots. I didn’t believe in psychic powers, but I thought, hey, a date’s a date.

    I got dates. Often with lower end women, who didn’t care for me either.

    Sometimes, I was able to get dates with beautiful women, the old fashioned way, by asking her. Such dates were rare. It didn’t happen most years. And when I did date a beautiful woman, I was prone to Oneitis and pedestalization, thus ruining my chances by being Friend Zoned.

    Getting dates, for me, was indeed a Herculean effort. And when I got dates, I had little knowledge or experience on how to “do it right.” I did much planning before every date. Researching restaurants. Planning my outfit. Buying flowers. Sometimes buying theater tickets, because they seemed more impressive than just a movie.

    And it’s not that I’m ugly. At least some women have told me (honestly, I think) that I’m good looking, though I think I’m just average. Medium height. But I exude Beta vibes. It’s like, after a brief time with me, women can tell … no tingles here.

    Alphas just don’t “get” what it’s like for men who can’t spark gina tingles..

  350. earlthomas786 says:

    Any insight to add? Anything familiar to you from my experience (if you don’t mind sharing)?

    She was my second girlfriend. We had strong passionate feelings for each other until she decided she didn’t have them anymore. She was my first kiss. I took me a long time to get over it. I was in my mid 20s and naive.

  351. seventiesjason says:

    RPL

    The issue at hand with all the dating, game, relationship advice for men…..
    Christian or worldly is the twisted conception and assumption that no guy has problems “getting” a date.

    It’s also geared to younger men, as it probably should be.

    I’ve pretty much have given up. I had an online dating profile a few years back. Had a professional shot taken. Had a proofer check my write up and even paid a “Christian” dating expert to help me write it.

    I even faced reality of “hey…go for a woman no more than 7/8 years younger than you. Be open to the fact you will be involved more than likely with a woman who already has children. Be a tad forgiving that she may not look like she did at 25″

    My profile chirped crickets. It made me more depressed and upset. I deleted the profile after a year. Immediately felt better and just said in evening prayers and devotionals: Lord, I’m done looking and trying. If I am introduced. If I happen to meet her out and about. Let that be Your will. Henceforth, I have other things to do now”

    I also swallowed my final red pill of accepting that I was below average looking. Sure I have blue eyes and I am taller than most people….but not attractive is just not attractive.

    It’s my Cross to bear brother and most of the time I am okay. I made bad and poor choices too when I was younger. I have been fully cleansed and forgiven. Made amends. But the consequences of my terrible lifestyle have made their mark. Nice girls on my level of attractiveness or age don’t want or need a former addict 🙂

  352. feministhater says:

    I described how hot (in a kind of slutty way) my ex was, not to brag or make myself look good, but because that’s what she really looked like.

    *cough cough* Bullshit! Your whole speil is filled with so called ‘humble brags’. You ain’t fooling anyone.

  353. Boxer says:

    Seventies Jason:

    I also swallowed my final red pill of accepting that I was below average looking. Sure I have blue eyes and I am taller than most people….but not attractive is just not attractive.

    I’ve sat at this forum for at least a month, reading this woe-is-me stuff from you, laughing all the while.

    I’m an old hand at clubbing. Your problem is high standards and an inability to stay until closing. Go as a spectator sometime, and see the human trash these women drag off the vodka stained dance floor: guys with no teeth, thug types with pants around their thighs, huge fat cowboys with vomit down their pearl-buttoned shirts… I’ve seen it all.

    You don’t have to be good lookin’ to get a woman. You just have to be in the right place at the right time. You also have to be willing to wallow in the mire with the types of women who stick it out to the end of the night. They generally look about as bad (in their own way) as the dudes.

  354. Boxer says:

    Guys like you my whole adult life have to tell me about their amazing dating life, sex life and how “alpha” or “upper beta” they are. How every girl was easily an 8 or 9 in the looks dept…and if she was average or ugly or fat……you were doing HER a favor by dating her, or banging her by your logic.

    Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta… Guys who use those terms around here are generally assumed to be gay. FYI

  355. earlthomas786 says:

    Alphas just don’t “get” what it’s like for men who can’t spark gina tingles..

    I still find it humorous how the greek letter system was only based on which men could create gina tingles or not. If the manosphere was about how to be successful in business or the gym, the guys with money and the guys with muscles would be alphas.

  356. Bee says:

    Jeff,

    “Like I said, picture a hot little 19 year old, 5’5″ and 115 pounds, with a great figure, dressed like Kelly Bundy in a leather………………………………………………………………………………………………….., ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… How could I, or any mortal man, resist that? Now it all seems so foolish. And even though I now regret the sins I committed with her, part of me will always be grateful I had that experience of her…right or wrong, I can’t help but feel that way.”

    Look, I have been positive towards you in these comments, so don’t blow me off. I appreciate you are doing your best to raise good daughters.

    But, guys who have truly repented of past sins, especially serious sins like adultery (as Earl and FH pointed out to you) and of fornication don’t retell stories of their past sins with the detail you share now. True repentance chastens them and humbles them so they admit they sinned but they don’t repeat all the details of the fleshly delights.

    I am not criticizing you, take this to heart. Seek out true, deep repentance. Ask God to open your eyes about this area. Your feelings are not true Christian faith. Faith and Biblical Truth need to rule over a Christians feelings. Going to church now, with your wife, is not enough.

  357. seventiesjason says:

    Boxer

    Jason taps Boxer lightly on elbow. Gives him a “nod”

    Boxer. Thanks for pulling back a bit and calling me out. Thanks. I need to get a check now and then. Glad you were the man to do it 😉

  358. Boxer says:

    Boxer. Thanks for pulling back a bit and calling me out. Thanks. I need to get a check now and then. Glad you were the man to do it 😉

    Hey brother, always happy to help. Next time we go out we’ll have space for you. I’m sure you’ll be eager to pick out a nice, marriageable girl from the skank-hoez on offer.

  359. Gunner Q says:

    Feeriker, I liked your FODANS acronym enough to blog about it. Feel free to contribute!

  360. 7817 says:

    Jeff, you’re very happy with your life.

    No one cares.

    You obviously have no advice to give anyone on this forum except “Be me!”

    Alpha’s and their chest beating. Insufferable.

    Thankfully, between The Rational Male and Dalrock (especially old posts) there’s enough information out there that those of us who didn’t figure it out when we were 9 like Jeff did still have a chance at a decent life, and that’s something I’m grateful for.

  361. Jeff Strand says:

    Bee: “But, guys who have truly repented of past sins, especially serious sins like adultery (as Earl and FH pointed out to you) and of fornication don’t retell stories of their past sins with the detail you share now.”

    Bee, sure, not gonna disagree. I already said I probably shouldn’t have “gone there”. It just poured out.

    It wasn’t about the sexual sins, it was about the intensity of feelings I shared with that particular young woman. It was an amazing experience, and it took me a long time to stop trying to re-live it – as I said above, I was your typical Alpha widow. Kept dwelling on her. Which I now realize was unfair to the following girls I dated.

    Next girl I dated was an older Cuban gal (she was 33, I was 26). We dated for about 6 or 8 months. In her mind, I was gonnna be her husband – she had marriage on the mind and wanted to lock me down. But she was just a rebound for me (in any case, she was too old for me to marry).

    I can recall driving to her house for a Saturday night date. She’d be all excited to spend time with me and have a date. But all I could think about was my ex (the Kelly Bundy look alike). I’d literally have tears in my eyes on the drive to her house, as I’d suck down a pint of beer, because I wanted so badly to be going to be with my ex…not the Cuban gal I was actually dating. I felt like everything was surreal and I felt lost. Sometimes at night, alone in my apt, the feelings would get overwhelming.

    At times like that I’d play that song by The Cars, “Since You’re Gone”. I so loved the opening lyrics: “Since you’re gone, the nights are getting strange.” They say nothing and yet they say everything! But I couldn’t stop thinking about her or get past my memories of her, no matter what I tried. Yet I also knew I couldn’t go back to her, I had to move forward. Sometimes I’d just drive around our old stomping grounds, playing the music we used to love, like Goo Goo Dolls, The Cranberries, Nine Inch Nails, Cracker, etc…

    There I go again, going on and on about this! I really must stop. But I think the lesson here is that these kind of super-intense, passionate relationships are a double-edged sword. They are like crack when you’re in them, but also like crack when they’re over. Meaning they leave you going through withdrawal. And the other lesson is that Alpha widows are a real phenomenon – I know, because I was the male version of one!

  362. feeriker says:

    Feeriker, I liked your FODANS acronym enough to blog about it. Feel free to contribute!

    Glad to be of service (it’s in the public domain).

    Speaking of blogs, I need to put the final touches on my own and get it up and running

  363. Jeff Strand says:

    And just to add, when I broke up with that Cuban girl she was, naturally, devastated. And I felt bad then, and still do, but what could I do? I wasn’t gonna marry her just to spare her some heartbreak.

    She even wrote a handwritten letter to my mom, complaining that I left her for the arms of another woman (which was true, this was the girl I would later be engaged to) and that I “never shed a single tear for her”, while she “shed many tears for me”.

    I talked to her a few years later and we became platonic friends, and stayed so for many years. Ultimately, she never found a husband and became an old maid. Never had the family she wanted so much, and I know how badly that affected her.

    Life is full of suffering, as well as joy. And I guess you just have to realize that heartbreak is the risk you take when you put yourself out there on the dating market. A lot of folks on here have had it a lot worse, what with frivorce and false allegations and whatnot.

    (I also have some experience with false allegations. Perhaps some other time)

  364. seventiesjason says:

    Jeff dated a Cuban girl too!

    Must live in the Miami area, or ‘metro dade” I believe it is called.

    I’m getting now a frightening image of Jeff driving a yellow convertible driving up the A-1-A listening to Stevie B or Expose and picking up Latinas after church of course

  365. Jeff Strand says:

    “Jeff dated a Cuban girl too!
    Must live in the Miami area, or ‘metro dade” I believe it is called.”

    Lol, good guess! She did indeed live in Kendall…though I was up in Broward. Moved away from there years ago, though. No desire to go back.

    The funny thing about her was, she refused to date Hispanic guys. She thought they were all cheaters. So she would only date White guys (or Anglos, as she called them). She said she could never marry a guy whose last name was “Gonzalez” or “Ramirez”. So she was a Hispanic chick, who was prejudiced against Hispanics, lol. So weird.

    I told her, I’m pretty sure white guys – sorry, Anglos – cheat too. But whatever. She had her mind made up – she was gonna marry a white guy and have one child, a daughter, with him. She had it all planned out. But it never happened.

    Sad thing is, she told me she did date a Cuban guy in her early 20’s. When she was 23, he proposed to her. She declined. In hindsight, pretty clear that was a mistake on her part. She ended up alone. An old maid.

    A sad story.

  366. seventiesjason says:

    Old maid????

    What she’s 43? 45 now??? Hardly old.

    I have family in Miami. An uncle, my younger brother and a cousin.

    In the 1980’s-2010 our family had a condo in Broward County. Deerfield Beach. Dad sold it a few years after mom died.

    I liked visiting south Florida. Never wanted to live there. Spent a spring break in Ft Lauderdale in 1991.

    Jeff…..did you even read and ponder what Bee said in the above post???

  367. Jeff Strand says:

    “Old maid????
    What she’s 43? 45 now??? Hardly old.”

    She’s got to be in her 50’s by now. And I didn’t say she’s “old”, I said she’s an “old maid”. She never married.

    “Jeff…..did you even read and ponder what Bee said…”

    Yes, I responded to her post.

  368. Bee says:

    Jeff Strand,

    Bee is a man. Bee married a woman.

  369. Jeff Strand says:

    “Bee is a man. Bee married a woman.”

    Copy that. Guess I was thinking of Aunt Bee, from the old Andy Griffith Shiw, lol

  370. thedeti says:

    Probably no one will read this.

    I feel badly for a lot of guys today. Because they won’t ever get married, and they won’t ever have a licit outlet for sexual conduct. If they do get married, they’ll be consigned to unhappy, blah marriages in which they get very little of what they want and need.

    Most men are not attractive enough to attract and keep the interest of one woman long enough to forge a relationship with her. They’re not good looking enough, they’re not masculine enough, and they’re not high status enough. And if most of them do get married (they probably will eventually), they don’t have the sexual attractiveness or the relationship skills to stay married for three or more decades. They aren’t sexually attractive enough.

    And sexual attractiveness is very important for marriage. It’s become an expectation now. Married people have to be sexually attracted to each other, or it will be a very, very difficult marriage at best. It can work without sexual attraction, but it is very, very difficult.

    A married man has to be able to attract the sexual interest of other women, or he will lose the one he has. A married woman has to maintain her sexual attractiveness to her husband, or he will lose interest or start acting in unattractive ways towards her. Having lost that sexual attractiveness leverage, she will ruin the marriage by trying to run it.

    By “lose the one he has” or “ruin the marriage” I don’t mean they will all divorce. I do mean, though that the marriage will be miserable and grinding drudgery.

    One major problem in marriage now is that everyone expects their marriages to look like how Jeff Strand describes his marriage – strong mutual sexual attraction from the very start, happy all the time, everything works great. And that just is not going to be most marriages, which are going to be stillborn before they even start.

  371. And sexual attractiveness is very important for marriage. It’s become an expectation now. Married people have to be sexually attracted to each other, or it will be a very, very difficult marriage at best. It can work without sexual attraction, but it is very, very difficult.

    It’s only of higher importance in this day and age because wives don’t submit to their husbands anymore and husbands don’t lead the family. The sexual dysfunction in marriage is basically a continuation of the overall rebellion against how God set up marriage.

  372. seventiesjason says:

    I once took a synopsis and study at a professors home in college. It was not a class. No credit given. He just organized a study meeting once a week in the evening. His clapboard New England home was across the street from the campus. A fire crackling on fall evenings in his living room. Coffee, and of us chain smoking…..about five students showed up.

    We studiedstudied Orwell’s “1984” and I won’t get into all the fascinating details discussed….

    But in the novel “the state” (big brother) was slowly and in a very sly and sinister manner turned children against their parents. Even darker and deeper was the distrust created to underhand marriage. Not destroy it per say…..but to subject it to Big Brother.

    Winston learns this while in detention in the “ministry of love” that Big Brother understood that if men and women created a stronger bond to each other through trust, sex, protection, and commitment….this could be a means to have allegiance to the spouse over the State.

    “We will eliminate the orgasm! We have scientists working on it. They will be no loyalty or bonding to a husband or wife. Only loyalty to Big Brother!”

    Now in the novel, that had not happened yet but other means of fostering contempt and distrust were already rampent to keep marriages on edge. You could even gather that Big Brother didn’t really care for the institution. A carry over from the “capitalistic” times two generations before.

    I don’t believe the future will exactly pan out like that for that situation. But I do know……the rate of decline will be very surprising in the next twenty years.

    That chart a few posts back indicates that almost 90% will marry. I’ll call it out now: I predict in twenty years a very large segment of our society will never have married.

    I’ll be happy to discuss why if you would like.

    Marriage is from and for God in his honor. It tastes good to Him. Evil twists anything it touches. We’re in the turmoil and throes of this now. The end result will be devastating to our society

  373. ensigma says:

    And cedar isn’t cheap either! I’d be interested to know if you used mortise and tenon, pocket holes or floating tenon (dem Festoooool dollas).

  374. thedeti says:

    @seventiesJason:

    I predict in twenty years a very large segment of our society will never have married.

    I think you might very well be correct that we’ll get to that point eventually. I just quibble on how fast we’re going to get there. As Dalrock has chronicled, the percentages of never marrieds and “waiting much later to be marrieds” is growing steadily. If memory serves me correctly, fully half the adult population of the US is currently unmarried. Those numbers are huge, and that portends a collapse that can’t be prevented, but only delayed for a while.

  375. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    thedeti: I feel badly for a lot of guys today. Because they won’t ever get married, and they won’t ever have a licit outlet for sexual conduct.

    More than a sexual outlet, I wanted to marry for an emotional connection. Even an intellectual connection. To have what Aristotle called “another Self.” A devoted woman would always listen, and understand, and comfort, and support.

    I wouldn’t even mind if she were a bad cook and an incompetent house cleaner. I could overlook incompetence, so long as she loved me and cheerfully tried her best.

    What I don’t want is a woman boiling with anger, resentment, haughtiness, and self-entitlement. Those are worse qualities than being unable to cook.

  376. thedeti says:

    RPL

    There are a few women who can give a man that emotional connection. Very, very, VERY few. And even fewer who want to.

    Most men are not sexually attractive enough to attract those women and keep that attraction long enough to marry them, much less keep that attraction going for 30 years or more.

    The problem isn’t that the Jeff Strands of the world don’t care about less fortunate men. The problem is that men aren’t attractive enough to attract women; and even if they do manage to attract one long enough to marry her, they aren’t anywhere close to attractive enough to keep her for 30 years or more. And make no mistake about it – sexual attractiveness is what it takes. And if you can’t or don’t bring that, you aren’t going to make it.

  377. thedeti says:

    Most men today who are getting married around age 30 to 40 are men who are just milling about the MMP like cattle. Post-carousel women are just picking them off, selecting the ones who look the best, or who might give those women the best chance of popping out one kid, and marrying them. It’s not the way to create a good marriage.

  378. Dalrock says:

    @ensigma

    And cedar isn’t cheap either! I’d be interested to know if you used mortise and tenon, pocket holes or floating tenon (dem Festoooool dollas).

    I didn’t do any fancy joins (perhaps one day). Just wood glue with some countersunk screws reinforcing it. I did buy a router and decorated the edges of the drawer faces (roman ogee) and rounded over the edges of the top of the chest.

  379. Oscar says:

    Two years ago, I bought a Kreg Jig for building furniture, and as soon as I used it, I wished I’d bought one years before.

    https://www.kregtool.com/store/c13/kreg-jigsreg/p169/kreg-jigreg-r3/

  380. Opus says:

    It is hard for American men when American women marry men from other nations. I see that one such Weinstein cast-off has settled in what will be for her a second marriage for a toyboy Spare. [shakin muh head]. I give it two years.

  381. earlthomas786 says:

    It is hard for American men when American women marry men from other nations. I see that one such Weinstein cast-off has settled in what will be for her a second marriage for a toyboy Spare. [shakin muh head]. I give it two years.

    Baffles the mind on that one. Then again even being born into royalty and having his choice of women doesn’t spare a man from making a dumb decision.

  382. Opus says:

    When I was his age I was dating a twenty-one year old and then her nineteen year old friend (and then the twenty-one year old again). I am obviously insecure and unable to appreciate the true appeal of a woman old enough to be a grandmother.

    Thomas Jefferson will be turning in his mausoleum. This is the second time one of your women has cossetted the title of Your Royal Highness. No true American surely can accept such a title – and she is a Roman Catholic! Daft as his ghastly mother The Queen of Tarts.

  383. seventiesjason says:

    Opus. My mother spoke with a heavy Welsh accent. Yet when she met other Brit ex-pats here in the USA out would come a much more posh “BBC” voice.

    I joked with her once “mum trying to put out that you are not from one if the provinces!”

    She just smiled and said “keeping up appearances”

    My dentist is ethnic Indian but she was raised in the UK. Her accent with her looks is extremely hot to me. Going to the dentist isn’t a chore for me.

    Jefferson would be “demading” another revolution yesterday if he was still around

  384. feeriker says:

    It is hard for American men when American women marry men from other nations.

    Au contraire, mon frere. Those clueless foreign suckers are doing America and her men a truly divine favor by taking this country’s unmarriageable skank-hos off of our hands. I am, however, feeling a bit guilt-ridden over this, as I cannot imagine what those guys have done to deserve being shackled to one of those beasts for ani terminable sum of years.

    I would probably also feel guilty about “robbing” some man from my fiancee’s home country of a potential wife if it weren’t for the fact that the men of her country are as odious as the women are here.

  385. Novaseeker says:

    It is hard for American men when American women marry men from other nations. I see that one such Weinstein cast-off has settled in what will be for her a second marriage for a toyboy Spare. [shakin muh head]. I give it two years.

    I thought the bigger deal was that she was not only divorced, but black (at least as black as Barack Obama is black) — from what I can tell, this is why the relationship is being hailed as “the relationship that might save the royals”.

    Probably the only better thing, from that perspective, is if he had married a female-to-male transsexual, thereby killing the gay and trans birds with one stone, and earning lots of kudos from The Guardian.

  386. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘No true American surely can accept such a title – and she is a Roman Catholic.’

    Then I’m sure she is well verse in knowing she is (or is going to) commit adultery.

  387. Opus says:

    She is black pretty much the way that, say, Nancy Kwan is Chinese; that is to say barely noticably and thus entirely acceptable to the people who deny there is any difference between the races whilst at the same time castigating anyone who voices the difference.

    [still shakin muh head]

  388. Gunner Q says:

    “It is hard for American men when American women marry men from other nations.”

    Nope. I’m glad for today’s visible perversions. Being naturally a bad judge of character, it truly helps me when the enemies of all that is good wear problem glasses, shave themselves mangy and hook up with cavemen.

    That’s not a call for help. That’s a warning to stay clear.

  389. seventiesjason says:

    Oh its not that hard….I have a TV that most of the time is off. Last night the MLB Network had a really cool recap of the 2017. From spring training to Houston beating those bums from LA (SF Giants fan forever here). Every commercial break…..I was being buskered to buy an engagement ring for the girl oy dreams. Vera Wang’s engagement rings are the ugliest form of bling I have ever seen. I don’t know any man who looks like these tools and can I please watch baseball in peace!!! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73JVjrs1g8c

  390. Morning Covfefe says:

    As long-suffering Deti says, probably no one will read this, but here it goes:

    Veteran Manosphere lurker here of the female variety. I’ve been away from this blog and the Manosphere in general for many months, being very caught up these days in activities Washington D.C. For some reason I surfed over today to see what was going on, and decided to read through this thread, where I found old familiar names like Earl, Deti, Infowarrior Feeriker, FH, etc. Upon completion I found myself compelled to comment here for the very first time. Perhaps being a female I feel able to interrupt this Dalrockian male space (I read the Comment Policy for the first time today) and say out loud what needs to be said. Here it goes:

    Of the tens of thousands of Manosphere comments I have read over the years made by hundreds of different commenters, Jeff Strand takes First Prize as being “MANOSPHERE POMPOUS ASS OF THE DECADE” In fact, he comes across as perhaps sociopathic and the instigator of an elaborate windup/LARP. Even if he’s for real, what kind of woman could stand being married to someone so clearly in love with himself, so lacking in empathy, so phony, so smarmy, and so, well, stuck up? If I caught the man in my life speaking like this I would retch! Moreover, Christian men who are happy with and grateful for their lot DO NOT use passive aggression and manipulation to spin tales and bully anyone, including other men, like Jeff Strand does here.

    With regard to Jeff Strand’s colorful past, I concur with Bee’s comments.

    Further, even if he is for real, Jeff Strand is NOT in any way an Alpha! True Alphas don’t tell stories in this manner. They have nothing to prove; they just are.

    Finally, the lads commenting here so thoughtfully, such as seventiesjason (a new name for me) and Earl (who I am familiar with) come across as interesting, kind, intelligent, sensitive, and principled men. In contrast to Jeff Strand, there is nothing fake about any of them. God bless Christian men like this – they are the salt of the earth, and the very opposite of the insufferable Jeff Strand. Have a great day everyone and thank you for allowing me this editorial.

  391. Pingback: Complementarian contempt for the servant’s heart. | Dalrock

  392. 447 says:

    Wife has had a stroke. Wheelchair bound. Needs so much care. Her husband still bathes her daily. feeds her. talks to her. Sure, they have a “health aid worker” come in as well to help…….but the husband one day said to me as he pushed her into the lobby in her wheelchair “Isn’t she the most beautiful woman in the world?”

    I even had to admit, at that moment….she was.

    They met in high school their senior year, were married seven months later. Makes you wonder. With all our “game” and “sexperts” and “dating books” and “professional speakers” and know it alls who post here………..
    ———————————–
    Having something that could develop into something like that now…intending to marry, finding a god-fearing community is next to impossible where I live.
    But the thing is this (refering to your sentence about game):

    Once I was…
    – a nice, attracitive, very fit pupil/young adult –> oh shit, how did girls not only ignore me, but bait-n-switch me, but me in LJBF before everyone, deny me sex etc pp (no game, I was anti-evil and held good moral values)

    – a very fit soldier, even some combat experience, still looking for a great girl to love –> was strung along endlessly, no alpha fux, boyfriend-who-has-to-be-nice still (no game and I was not evil) –> you can jump out of fuckin planes and detonate shit for a job and these hoes STILL dont consider you cool IF you are not funny and or evil!! You get sometimes a lackluster, mediocre GF, cue depressed Pepe

    – a diligent uni student after military time served –> uni chicks ignored me (no game, no evil, You get the drift, not even a semicool uniform anymore)

    – MORAL BREAKDOWN TIME –> still at uni (though not virgin anymore, But never received enthusiastic alpha fucks, only mediocre GFs if anything at all, usually incel most of the time, as before), I could not take that shit anymore.
    I got a lot of black clothes & a leather jacket, teamed up with my ex-comrades from the military and we started to fuck things up. We half-assed our studies at day and beat up moslems, leftists (sometimes even feminists) etc at night. As the police in Europe is really soft and quite stupid (and we had endured some stuff that made us literally laugh when civilian police pussys would try to act tough)…no one of us ever got convicted of anything. As we used no guns and did not take part in any real crimes, were just in it for the fun…it worked out great.
    AND HERE COME THE PUSSIES RAINING DOWN.
    We literally fornicated/drank our brains out. Some of us even had to team up/get sober for some months to complete our degrees.

    Now…we all changed from that time.
    But we lived it: If you are plain and simply evil, act in a gang (and in hindsight, it was just that, only it was about party territory, fist/knife fights and girls, not drugs &money), you get prime pussy FOR FREE, WITHOUT ANY TROUBLE. And oh no, do not believe for a second these girls were usually low-class or uneducated…after all, we had to make up for time missed on the carussel…those turks, blacks, leftist pot-smokers and soibois immediatly lose their magic ability to get girls if you just punch them in the face hard enough…😀

    Now, of course life could not go on like that forever.
    We discovered game, because engineers, teachers and PhDs cant run around at night &get into fistfights all the time.
    But the lesson stuck for us:

    No matter what women say, you either have game, are evil OR you will never be considered as the HOT boyfriend/husband, the one they willingly submit to treat well and support.

    Yeah, the depressing, usual, regular “girl settles for you for a while to regenerate her powers to hunt assholes, ditches you when she is fit again”-LTR…that you can perhaps get without game.
    But if you know the real thing (alpha fux, genuine female submission) such an LTR is even more painful than just being alone. (No offence towards the suffering of hardcore incel, just adding perspective)

    For me, the choice between
    A) blowing up my work life, sliding into HarlyMcBadboy subculture and have a perfect sex life
    Or
    B) learn game (which was psychlogcally really, really hard, at least for me), have the woman you want and nothaving to blow up your social status & work life to be happy romantically

    was easy in the end.
    Or rather simple and not easy.🙄

  393. 447 says:

    1In fact, he comes across as perhaps sociopathic and the instigator of an elaborate windup/LARP.
    ————
    Met perhaps two or three real sociopaths in my entire life.
    But:
    Sociopaths are busy exploiting people and banging the hottest of hot girls, they would immidiately close any manosphere page, because associating with that is a huge negative drain to social status – besides telling sociopaths about game is like lecturing fish on the wetness of diverse water streams..
    Just sayin’.. 😉

  394. Pingback: Angry with God, envious of men. | Dalrock

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