They’re back in your 20s where you left them.

Margaret Wente at the Globe and Mail* asks where all the good men have gone.  Wente comes to the conclusion that women need a sex cartel:

…it’s up to us to make the rules. “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?” my father used to say. It drove me crazy when he said that. Now, it’s dawned on me that he was right.

Since the women’s cartel collapsed, women’s bargaining power has seriously eroded. That’s why so many single women hate Tinder, which has further commodified sex for the benefit of men. Women are just another consumer good in the shop window.

The apex fallacy aside, Wente is partially right.  Women (as a group) have signaled to men that what they really want are exciting sexy badboys, not boring loyal dudes. It isn’t that women no longer want to marry beta providers, they just don’t want to waste a day more of their youth and fertility on their husband than absolutely necessary.

As a result, some up and coming boring loyal dudes aren’t knocking themselves out in their twenties while they wait for their future wife to tire of having sex with other men.  Wente (partially) understands this too:

It may take a village to raise a child. But it takes a village to raise a husband, too. And modern society has largely abdicated from the job. “Good husband material doesn’t occur naturally, but is instead the product (in part) of socialization, development, and social control,” Mr. Regnerus writes. “[I]n the domain of sex and relationships men will act as nobly as women collectively demand.”

Time to get our act together, ladies. If we don’t, they won’t either.

What Wente doesn’t understand is that timing is everything.  From an economic point of view, women are dividing up sexual access that traditionally would have been reserved only for their husband into two blocks.  The first block contains their most attractive and fertile years, and it is dedicated to no strings sex with exciting badboys.  Then, once women reach what Rollo calls the epiphany phase, they want to bargain sexual access in their remaining (older and less fertile) years for maximum beta bucks.

The problem with this strategy is (generally speaking) not that the previously overlooked beta men will refuse to marry the suddenly reformed party girls.  The problem is that young men now look at the men 3-5 (and even 5-10) years older than them and don’t see an indication that signaling provider status will make them attractive to women.  They also see a society that holds married fathers in contempt**.  Most of these men are still working hard in their late teens and twenties to prepare to signal provider status in their 30s.  But a growing minority of young men are no longer doing so.  These men are instead working like women.  Once the reformed party girls are ready to find Mr. Beta Bucks, there is a shortage of 30 something men who fit the bill.  Even worse, no amount of complaining or shaming will cause the missing beta providers to go back in time and spend the prior decade preparing for this moment.

To add insult to injury, because we have abandoned any meaningful concept of sexual morality there is no moral force to hold Wente’s proposed cartel together.  It is doomed to fail.

*HT Nick MGTOW

**With Christians leading the way.

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This entry was posted in Aging Feminists, Death of courtship, Disrespecting Respectability, Economics, Ugly Feminists, Weak men screwing feminism up. Bookmark the permalink.

534 Responses to They’re back in your 20s where you left them.

  1. “no amount of complaining or shaming will cause the missing beta providers to go back in time and spend the prior decade preparing for this moment”

    Lazy men–refusing to do a simple thing such as going back in time!

  2. Frank K says:

    The problem is that young men now look at the men 3-5 (and even 5-10) years older than them and don’t see an indication that signaling provider status will make them attractive to women.

    Not to mention that providers have a high probability of being ejected from their homes, losing access to their children and having to fork over half their incomes to their ex’s,

    To be honest, I’m surprised that any men, especially secular men, still want to get married, or sire any kids for that matter.

    I read this on another website: No kids, no wife, no problems in life. Speaking of which, at my workplace we recently had a massive layoff. The few never married, no kids coworkers in their 50’s who were let go just shrugged and announced they were done with work and would be retiring as the house/condo was paid for a long time ago, they have no debts and a seven figure balance in the 401K.

  3. Pingback: They’re back in your 20s where you left them. | @the_arv

  4. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Dear Ms. Wente,
    It is too late to apologize
    Signed,
    The men you didn’t want back then”

  5. Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books for Cucks) says:

    Emphasizing Frank’s point, and men’s growing realization there is no longer any reward for amassing the funds to make a love nest: there is the current employment climate, which will only worsen as men abandon colleges and grad schools and stick to service, temp, technical or subsistence work that can’rt be exported. Sensible men don’t want to marry, if at all, until they think they’re somewhat established and can take care of themselves. They know to prepare for when the marriage doesn’t work out and they have to. Now more than ever the only folks happy to marry are UMC folks who have some property set by or are continuing a dynasty, they have the willingness to give spousehood a serious go to keep the assets pool together. And, uh, gay people. (Go ahead, Laugh! Someone has to do the marrying if our young cis-hets won’t or don’t think they’re allowed).

    Then you have the shaming of straightness and inoculation against manhood percolating now into high schools too, a clumsy approach to a woman = assault = expulsion or termination. The clear message is that there is no point for anyone else to marry. HR people would agree. Marriage puts an albatross around your neck. If you have money issues starting out as a couple (and who doesn’t?) it’s a recipe for tension, panic, quarrel and divorce, which lowers your productivity as an employee. We bosses prefer single people: they can be leaned on to work any shift and holidays, no time off needed for sprog-care or marital therapy.

    So yes it’s hard to shame us Beta males into manning up and marrying when we have spent years telling them we risk defenestration for making the effort with less than Alpha Dawg rockbanddrummer skillz.

  6. earl says:

    In a way it’s still a rewarding task for a man to prepare to be husband…in that in the long run it’ll produce better results for him as he gets older should he decide to stay single. Nothing wrong with being a ‘beta’ if you are smart about it and don’t ruin it by choosing the wrong woman.

    Spending your 20s being a promiscuous cad/partying alcoholic/irresponsible adult doesn’t suit a man well when he gets into his 30-40s and beyond. Things like debt, disease, and possibly jail time all come into play.

    And if a woman thinks the 20s are about casual sex/partying/exotic trips/etc…the same problems are going to befall on her too. She has the added risk of going deeper into poverty should her experiences lead to single motherhood.

  7. Bart says:

    I suppose it’s so obvious it didn’t need to be said, but of course the cartel Wente proposes was the abusive, patriarchal control feminists chafed about for generations when men imposed it for society’s good. And the very sort of social control that spells misogyny when imposed on women is just fine to impose on men to mold serviceable husbands.

    Maximal restrictions on male sexuality, yes, now just an intra-feminist debate on how to treat female sexuality to get the best deal. As Dalrock has already said, it won’t work, and we’ll be subjected to decades of feminist whining about how men aren’t playing the game fairly.

  8. Frank K says:

    Emphasizing Frank’s point, and men’s growing realization there is no longer any reward for amassing the funds to make a love nest

    There is one reward, but it involves (as I mentioned above) bachelorhood and early retirement.

    But yeah, a growing number of young men are saying no to college and a career (also saying no to learning a trade). They will of course have to work at their low paying jobs until they are very old. Hopefully Social Security will still be around in some form or they might have to work until they drop dead.

  9. earl says:

    Wouldn’t it be interesting if the one thing that might actually start the change in widespread female sexual immorality is that the ladies ‘golden parachute’ backup of responsible (beta) guys finally had enough of the ‘man up and marry the slut’ mantra or have at least have awakened to the bad deal that comes to them if they marry one. For a while the consequences of her bad behavior were at least cushioned by the fact she could find a responsible man to marry after her years on the carousel to divorce later and take at least half of his earnings. But with the trend in marriage rates going down, the sluts are having a harder time sticking the landing.

  10. Frank K says:

    I suppose it’s so obvious it didn’t need to be said, but of course the cartel Wente proposes was the abusive, patriarchal control feminists chafed about for generations when men imposed it for society’s good.

    I think what Ms. Wente has in mind is a female controlled cartel, which we know won’t work because the cartel will grant exemptions to women, like: “It’s OK to sleep around if you’re in love with them, after all, you are searching for your soulmate and you won’t know that it’s him until you sleep with him.”

    Who says she isn’t “in love” with tattooed biker boy Chad? Tingles are a sign of being in love, right? If he doesn’t give you tingles, then he can’t be Mr. Right. It says so in 50 Shades of Carouseling, and in Eat, Pray, Fornicate, right?.

  11. Kevin says:

    Women don’t seem to behave as men collectively want given divorce and the growing plague of useless women with useless degrees. It’s cute that they think they can put the genie back in the bottle.

    The problem with cartels is they never work. Everyone cheats. Nope you don’t need a cartel you need sweeping repentance and Christ. That’s the only thing that going to save us now.

  12. earl says:

    If he doesn’t give you tingles, then he can’t be Mr. Right. It says so in 50 Shades of Carouseling, and in Eat, Pray, Fornicate, right?

    Yeah but it’s funny that unlike in cinema how tingles hardly ever lead to Chad or Mr. Big giving her a ring in real life.

  13. Someone says:

    Certainly no incentive to marry. Men also have to compete with vagina when it comes to jobs even if it is in STEM. No point working your butt off anymore and investing in this society.

  14. honeycomb says:

    As a lifelong Bachelor ..

    I’ll cry a tear for “th wimminz” tonight in my, early retirement funded lifestyle, adult beverage.

    ..
    ..

    The problem is women are playing in a static analysis and the world operates in a dynamic pace. So, just poly’ticians (who think in a static model .. think taxes / burdens on the rate payer) .. and then is dismayed that the predictions they thought would happen never materialize. So, sad .. her dad tried to help her and she wouldn’t listen too / respect him enough to listen until her failed idea’s come home to roost.

  15. Frank K says:

    But with the trend in marriage rates going down, the sluts are having a harder time sticking the landing.

    One would hope, but from what I see is that the women are still optimistic about reeling in a chump, even when they are single mothers. It reminds me of the studies that show that poor people think they have a non trivial chance or being rich someday.

    Maybe if the older women who didn’t stick the landing warn the younger women to not follow in their footsteps, perhaps some younger women will avoid the mistake … but I wouldn’t bet on that happening. The younger women will just see the older women warning them as “losers” and happily hop onto the carousel, because they’re winners and everything will turn out great for them.

    I do expect that the percentage of children born to single women, which is about 50%, will climb even more as self supporting middle class women will chose a dark triad type of man to sire a child for them when they can’t stick the landing, plus the fact that marriage will become a complete anachronism for the lower class. For them, getting married will be as realistic as joining a country club. Add to that the fact that the higher you are on the socioeconomic ladder, the less likely you are to have kids and if you do, you will probably just have one.

    Imaging being a kid from a two parent, middle class, married household in the not too distant future. In school you will possibly find that 90+% of your peers either were born to a single mother or their parents are divorced and they live with mom and her current boyfriend. Those numbers are already quite grim in most public schools, but imagine that now you’re the oddball because you live with both your parents and they’re married.

  16. greenlander says:

    I was an actual “greater beta”. I was really good at what I did in Silicon Valley, I was known at the guy who could fix any bug. And I had the social skills to make it to the first level of management and was there for ten years. But I wasn’t quite Machiavellian enough to make it to the next level of management. But my senior management loved me for what I did: I recruited literally a hundred of great engineers by networking and doing the university recruiting career fairs. My group wrote complex software and delivered it on schedule.

    But that in and of itself didn’t get me many potential mates. In Silicon Valley, every senior person is making $300K in a combination of salary and equity compensation. But, so is everyone else there. That in itself doesn’t impress any women. (Hint to women: if you want to find a good man with little competition, move to Mountain View or Palo Alto.)

    Many of my colleagues joked me with me (mostly who had Asian girlfriends or wifes), “Greenlander, just go Asian.” But they don’t float my boat. My ancestors fought in the revolutionary war. I want children with blue eyes.

    My parents married when my mother was nineteen and my father was twenty-one. Now, they’ve been married for over forty years. In some ways, I feel that I failed them. They want grandchildren. And actually, I want to give them that. But the current legal and social climate doesn’t make it easy for me to give them that.

    Our culture is coming apart. It’s like Vox Day and Heartist write: “diversity and proximity is war”. I’m not sure if it is true or not: perhaps we will just gradually descend into something like Brazil. Or perhaps the civil war is coming.

    The Chinese saying “may you live in interesting times,” is apropos here. It’s not an optimistic statement. The situation will degrade from here, and the result for many will not be pleasant. Our culture is coming unglued.

  17. earl says:

    One would hope, but from what I see is that the women are still optimistic about reeling in a chump, even when they are single mothers.

    I don’t care much for the optimism of women or single mothers driving this…

    I care more if the ‘beta’ or chump type men are becoming more awakened, red pill, or at least aware to the situation they’ll be put in.

    I think Anon stated something about having no sympathy for a man after a certain point given now given what has happened repeatedly in the past to these type of men combined with the information at his fingertips to not be ignorant about it anymore.

  18. Novaseeker says:

    The comments on the article at the Globe and Mail site are entertaining to say the least. Lots of divorced guys speaking up about how they were reamed in Canadian family law courts and so on, with their ex-wives on BF #3 and so on, and having no sympathy whatsoever for what Wente is complaining about.

    Those numbers are already quite grim in most public schools, but imagine that now you’re the oddball because you live with both your parents and they’re married.

    It won’t necessarily result in social chaos, however. Iceland, which isn’t socially chaotic, has an unwed motherhood rate of something like 67%. Other Scandinavian countries are lower than that but still sky high by our standards. Of course, people aren’t behaving *morally* when it comes to sex in particular, but society isn’t coming apart at the seams either. It’s just a very, very different kind of society when it comes to sex than anything resembling a Christian one. The US isn’t Scandinavia, though, due to diversity, and I think our future is more Brazil than Iceland.

    But that in and of itself didn’t get me many potential mates. In Silicon Valley, every senior person is making $300K in a combination of salary and equity compensation. But, so is everyone else there. That in itself doesn’t impress any women.

    Yep. Same in DC. There is literally a huge number of people living in the DC area who are making ~200-250k — it’s unlike anywhere else in the country, I think, due to the sheer number of people like that here. There is no industry here, there is no blue collar working class here other than a small number of them who are tradesmen who serve this elite here. Making 250k here impresses no women at all, heck that is what THEY are making themselves in many cases. As I’ve said many times, it’s no coincidence that both Roissy AND Roosh arose from DC.

    Manhattan itself is even worse — if you’re earning 250k there, you’re a nobody, because the bankers and law partners and so on are all somewhere in the 7 figures. Unlike DC, there is a large working class in NY and working “middle class” as well, but today there are almost *no* relationships between people of different socio-economic classes — they’re not completely absent, but they’re very rare. Everyone has silo’ed into their own socio-economic class and assortatively mates within that class.

    Our culture is coming apart. It’s like Vox Day and Heartist write: “diversity and proximity is war”. I’m not sure if it is true or not: perhaps we will just gradually descend into something like Brazil. Or perhaps the civil war is coming.

    All speculative, of course, but I think it’s more Brazil than civil war. I don’t see the military effectively dividing like it did in 1860, and without that happening, any civil war is DOA. More likely is the gradual brownification of the masses, coupled with a thin elite at the top that is not brown, is highly educated, elite and rich, and owns/runs everything.

  19. honeycomb says:

    Wente says ..
    “A lot of women seem to have their act together these days. But a lot of men don’t.”

    Right .. Ms Wente .. sure thing toots.

  20. earl says:

    Other Scandinavian countries are lower than that but still sky high by our standards. Of course, people aren’t behaving *morally* when it comes to sex in particular, but society isn’t coming apart at the seams either.

    Iceland is probably the outlier just given the location and the homogeneous population, however Sweden is always served as the example of a nation heading into chaos (or often already there) by importing hoards of Muslims.

  21. Novaseeker says:

    LOL, Rollo’s SV chart is cited in the comments to that article. I tell you, MSM comment sections ain’t what they used to be.

  22. Bee says:

    @Greenlander,

    “In some ways, I feel that I failed them. They want grandchildren. ”

    I thought you moved to Eastern Europe or Russia to find a good woman. Am I mistaken? Did that work out for you?

  23. ys says:

    A possible future is the fact that women like the authoress won’t exist in 30 years. This woman still can look back, at her parents’ generation, and see how things used to be, and long for that day. What “day” will the young women like her long for in 30 years? It will be so far from their reference that they won’t even know what they missed.

  24. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    It won’t necessarily result in social chaos, however. Iceland, which isn’t socially chaotic, has an unwed motherhood rate of something like 67%. Other Scandinavian countries are lower than that but still sky high by our standards. Of course, people aren’t behaving *morally* when it comes to sex in particular, but society isn’t coming apart at the seams either. It’s just a very, very different kind of society when it comes to sex than anything resembling a Christian one. The US isn’t Scandinavia, though, due to diversity, and I think our future is more Brazil than Iceland.

    This might have changed in the last ten years, but as of 2006 Iceland had a higher rate of adolescent children living with both parents (70%) than the US (~60%). This was the case even though out of wedlock birth rates in 1995 were much higher in Iceland (64%) than the US (39%). As you might recall, when I pulled the data on this I was stunned to find that the US had the lowest percentage of adolescent children living with both parents than every other western country I found data for.

    In the US, parents are married in name only. In Iceland and the rest of Scandinavia, parents are unmarried in name only.

  25. Otto says:

    It will only take about 10% of men opting out to shake up the system. 25% will put it in crisis, more than that will crash it.

    And by opting out, I don’t mean MGTOW or writing off women. I mean men who see marriage as only one of many legit options for their life. Men who will have no concerns about turning 30 or even 40 and not being married. Men, who if they do consider marriage, will insist on Miss Right (meaning she’s not Miss Carousel-rider, Miss Land-whale, Miss Single-mom, or Miss Reformed-whatever).

    When enough men opt out of the “Women are the prize” system and realize they (the men) are the commodity in short supply, and thus the prize, then the system will crash.

  26. Neguy says:

    Margaret Wente is 67 and married, so she isn’t writing this from some personal angst, unlike many other such articles. She apparently previously pushed back against rape culture, but also had some plagiarism allegations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wente

    What I’ve seen of Regnerus’ new work is very disappointing. He knows better. But after taking a huge beating over his gay parenting study, I can see why he wants to keep his head down.

  27. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    In the US, parents are married in name only. In Iceland and the rest of Scandinavia, parents are unmarried in name only.

    The Icelandics used to carry on the Nordic tradition of last hames. Say a man by the name of Torvald has a son, Sigmund, that son is Sigmund Torvaldson. Torvald’s daughter Siglind is similarly Siglind Torvaldsdottir. Perhaps the Nordics are just reverting to their pre-Christian state?

    That will probably work in Iceland, where the population is very homogeneous. Sweden? Norway? Denmark? Not so much, thanks to ongoing immigration from very different cultures.

  28. Frank K says:

    As you might recall, when I pulled the data on this I was stunned to find that the US had the lowest percentage of adolescent children living with both parents than every other western country I found data for.

    Kind of puts to bed the canard that divorce rates are way lower than in the 70’s and 80’s.

    When my kids made the transition from our Parochial K-8 school, with its low rate of broken homes, to the local public high school (we have no local Parochial high school) it was a culture shock for the kids, as even though or little burg is very while and allegedly middle class, they found that:

    1) A quarter of their classmates were on some form of welfare
    2) About half were in broken homes, or in single mother homes.

    My wife used to work at the local library. She told me about how common it was for a woman to show up at the check out counter with her kids, each of which who had their own library card, and that they all had different last names. And I’m talking 3 to 4 kids.

  29. Novaseeker says:

    In the US, parents are married in name only. In Iceland and the rest of Scandinavia, parents are unmarried in name only.

    Its true, they tend to follow the following script: date –> sex –> cohabit –> kids –> marriage. Basically the last two are flipped from what most people in the US do. The theory is similar to the “how can I marry someone I haven’t slept with?!?!?!” except here it’s “how can I marry someone if I haven’t already started to raise kids with them and see what kind of a parent and partner they are ?!?!?!?”. I guess it works in a place like Iceland because the whole place is so small and homogeneous and basically everyone is related to everyone anyway.

  30. the bandit says:

    @earl 11:53 am comment

    It’s not that beta providers are instead choosing to live life like a bad boy. They’re just no longer sacrificing themselves for the sake of their family, because they have no family to sacrifice for and a growing realization that the romanticized idea of finally getting one in their 30s is a bill of goods.

    For example, largely out of a motivation to signal provider status, I set out to become an accountant. After getting continually burned by the sexual marketplace (I am an intellectual Delta), I had to ask myself why knock myself out for a romanticized ideal that can never be obtained. Now I am pursuing instead the artistic goals I’ve always preferred, anyway. I make less than no money at it, but I find satisfaction and fulfillment in it.

    If there had been a different culture, I would have found motivation and fulfillment in working hard to provide for my family. There was no family to provide for, and I have too much self-respect to marry a woman who didn’t want to waste a minute more of her youth and beauty on me than she had to, so there will probably never be a family for me.

    After all, as a Delta with no provider status, I’m not going to be attractive to the women who could change my outlook.

  31. Damn Crackers says:

    OPEC is a cartel too. Fracking is ready to bust up that organization…

    I’m wondering if there ever was a time when Beta males made their women happy. Maybe when a peasant lass was churning her butter while her husband was out in the fields, she just wanted a barbarian to ravish, rape, and take her away.

  32. Frank K says:

    The Icelandics used to carry on the Nordic tradition of last hames. Say a man by the name of Torvald has a son, Sigmund, that son is Sigmund Torvaldson. Torvald’s daughter Siglind is similarly Siglind Torvaldsdottir. Perhaps the Nordics are just reverting to their pre-Christian state?

    I believe that practice has been alive and well for some time, as a woman I used to be acquainted with was married to an Icelander and lived in Iceland. Their two children had the “son” and “dottir” suffixes attached to Dad’s first name.

    FWIW patronymic names are used in other cultures. Take Castillian names. If your father was Martin, your last name would have been Martinez. That practice has been dropped in Spanish speaking countries, though the old patronymic names live on.

  33. Peasant says:

    “That’s why so many single women hate Tinder, which has further commodified sex for the benefit of men.”

    That’s rich. Everybody knows Tinder is a hookup app, and the data shows that it mirrors the broader sexual marketplace – something like 3% of the guys get 80% of the girls. It does nothing but facilitate the pre-existing desires of the modern college-age female, namely to get drilled by as many chads as they can in their twenties. To claim it benefits men is preposterous – the vast majority of men were better off (purely in terms of sex) before the sexual revolution when we paired off early and mated more or less for life, resulting in a much more egalitarian sexual marketplace.

    While I’m glad I found a nice girl and settled down young, I must admit I couldn’t make an argument for a secular peer to follow suit without convincing him of my religion first. If fornication isn’t a mortal sin, marriage makes zero sense for men.

  34. Original Laura says:

    @Otto

    10% of men opting out of the system might crash it. I remember reading one time that if heavy automobile traffic is still flowing freely at 55 mph, adding just 5% more cars can turn it into stop-and-go traffic. If every middle-class extended family ends up with an “Aunt Stephanie” who never got married, the message is going to trickle down to the younger girls in the family.

    I also read one time that the whole sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s was triggered by the baby boom. From 1945 to 1957, the number of babies born each year was greater than the year before. Since most men marry a woman two to five years his junior, a “backlog” of females occurred. For instance, assume all the men prefer to marry women precisely three years their junior. So men born in 1945 would choose a bride from the 1948 cohort if they could. Because the 1948 cohort was larger, there would be women in that age group who would not be chosen. The next year, the leftover 1948 women would still be trying to marry, but the 1949 women would also be on the market. It became more difficult for women to remain chaste prior to marriage, because the number of women wanting to marry exceeded the number of interested men, and each year the backlog of women got bigger and bigger. Although it is undoubtedly true at this point that most divorces are initiated by women, back in the 1970s, it was very easy for a reasonably successful man to get divorced and remarry a woman much younger than his former wife, because the pool of unmarried women was quite large due to the demographic anomaly.

    After 1957, the number of births per year began to decline, and by around 1964, the baby boom was over. When these children were old enough to date in the 1970s/80s, there was suddenly a surplus of men because the ratio flipped. But the moral standards of previous decades continued to decline despite the shift in sex ratio. Once chastity is devalued, it is hard to turn the clock back.

    It seems obvious to me that the sexual revolution has been ongoing ever since WWI, and it may have actually started well before that. But the invention of the typewriter, simplified fashions for women, smaller family sizes, etc., all contributed to the society we have now. I would say that even a 5% change could crash the system. A 5% change doesn’t seem like much, but for middle-class women who consider marriage vital, they will alter their behavior to make sure that they don’t end up as part of the small group that gets left behind.

  35. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    greenlander: My parents married when my mother was nineteen and my father was twenty-one. Now, they’ve been married for over forty years. In some ways, I feel that I failed them. They want grandchildren. And actually, I want to give them that. But the current legal and social climate doesn’t make it easy for me to give them that.

    My parents married in Eastern Europe before immigrating to the U.S. They were married for over 50 years before dying. They too wanted grandchildren, which I never gave them. They thought it weird that I never married. I was financially successful. I wasn’t hideous.

    My mother wondered if I was gay. She would never have believed that most modern American women are not attracted to polite, boring professionals. Or that so many modern American women, when they are finally ready marry, are already single mothers with other men’s children.

  36. Frank K says:

    That’s rich. Everybody knows Tinder is a hookup app, and the data shows that it mirrors the broader sexual marketplace – something like 3% of the guys get 80% of the girls. It does nothing but facilitate the pre-existing desires of the modern college-age female, namely to get drilled by as many chads as they can in their twenties.

    Tinder definitely delivers that for the women, what it doesn’t deliver is the much wanted engagement ring. I think that is why they say it favors men.

    The old “game” was, as others here have pointed out, was: date->sex->cohabitate->marriage. Tinder has changed the game, now it’s: hookup->sex->bye bye,while what they are expecting is Hookup->sex->date->cohabitate->marriage.

    Since tinder hooks them up with cream of the crop apex type males, those guys get all the women they want, without any fuss. They don’t even have to go to bars and pick up women, the women now pick them up on tinder. Is it any surprise that those men are pumping and dumping?

  37. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    Kind of puts to bed the canard that divorce rates are way lower than in the 70’s and 80’s.

    Not necessarily. People who cohabit, who never married, can’t get divorced. There’s more than one way for the divorce rate to decrease.

  38. Frank K says:

    And by opting out, I don’t mean MGTOW or writing off women. I mean men who see marriage as only one of many legit options for their life. Men who will have no concerns about turning 30 or even 40 and not being married. Men, who if they do consider marriage, will insist on Miss Right (meaning she’s not Miss Carousel-rider, Miss Land-whale, Miss Single-mom, or Miss Reformed-whatever).

    That sounds very MGTOW to me. MGTOW doesn’t mean writing off women, it just means going your own way, not responding to society’s pressures and making your own choices. For some, “all women are like that”, and they choose to write off women, Others might decide “I’ll marry if I find the right woman, and if I don’t, that’s fine, I’ll remain a bachelor”. The point is you go YOUR own way and no one tells you what to do. MGTOW’s do tend to avoid entanglements that bring the state into the picture. as the state can mess with you and tell you what to do and how to live your life.

  39. Frank K says:

    Not necessarily. People who cohabit, who never married, can’t get divorced. There’s more than one way for the divorce rate to decrease.

    True, but what I understand by “divorce rate” is what percentage of marriages fails.

    But your point is well taken, just because a child doesn’t live with mom and dad doesn’t mean they were ever married in the first place.

    My anecdotal observation is that lower class (AKA poor) kids are more likely the kids of single mothers than once or still married ones, while in the middle class they are more likely to come from broken homes than single mothers. That said, my sample is small and the times are changing.

  40. Pingback: They’re back in your 20s where you left them. | Reaction Times

  41. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Original Laura, speaking of demographic anomalies, you might want to read George Gissing’s The Odd Women, published in 1893.

    From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Odd_Women

    The novel’s title is derived ostensibly from the notion that there was an excess of one million women over men in Victorian England. This meant there were “odd” women left over at the end of the equation when the other men and women had paired off in marriage. A cross-section of women dealing with this problem are described in the book and it can be inferred that their lifestyles also set them apart as odd in the sense of strange.

    Some of these “odd women” try to cope with their unmarried status by finding jobs. This often means becoming a governess, typist, factory girl, or streetwalker, depending on her social status. Others try to settle by marrying unsuitable men (i.e., over 20 years older), whom they promptly betray by having affairs with men their own age.

  42. earlthomas786 says:

    Is it any surprise that those men are pumping and dumping?

    I think the disconnect most women in the casual sex scene don’t understand is…having sex with some lothario isn’t going to get him to commit to her. And her giving sex away that easily isn’t going to make her attractive to a responsible man who wants a moral wife. She’s burning herself at both ends.

    Her only hope is finding a guy who isn’t a lothario and can overlook her easy past…and she might not even be attracted to him anyway.

    I don’t think Tinder helps either sex…but it certainly burns women more in the long run.

  43. Hmmm…..you would think they would build their House on a Rock? No they are searching for liquidity (as a career professional), investment (as a career boss), billiables (as top management) thus they treat dating as their same 9/5 revenue hunting matrix formula and synchronously believe that a husband is in fact a client of the firm, an investor for tomorrow, a project manager all in one.

    Where have all the good men gone? (that’s what they say at night)
    Where have all the good clients gone? (that’s what they say as professionals)
    Where have all the good ideas gone? (that’s what the few who have made top management say)
    Where have all the good fixers gone? (that’s what the few, who made top management say, after their in quicksand)!!

  44. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    And her giving sex away that easily isn’t going to make her attractive to a responsible man who wants a moral wife.

    Although there’s that slag with the YouTube video who bragged about how “I fucked four men today,” and how that made her more valuable as a woman, because she had more experience.

  45. Anonymous Reader says:

    Not necessarily. People who cohabit, who never married, can’t get divorced. There’s more than one way for the divorce rate to decrease.

    Frank K
    True, but what I understand by “divorce rate” is what percentage of marriages fails.

    That’s correct. It is also less and less relevant, because fewer people are marrying.

    If fewer people are marrying and fewer of those divorce, the divorce rate is in decline, so tradcon endzone dance party! Except that all the social problems caused by divorce are the same or worse in the case of cohabiting parents who break up / drift apart, they just don’t show up in the “divorce statistics” so beloved of academics in think tanks. Well, if they can’t be seen in pet stats, I guess they don’t exist, eh? No. They exist.

    But your point is well taken, just because a child doesn’t live with mom and dad doesn’t mean they were ever married in the first place.

    Still missing the point. Even if a child lives with mom and dad who are cohabiting, and after they break up the child lives with mom, the practical effect on the child is the same as if they divorced, except that tradcons are too busy celebrating “Decline in divorce rate! Yay Us!” to notice what is really happening in the world now vs. what was happening back in the 1990’s or earlier.

    Look at it two extremes:
    1. Everyone marries. Now the divorce rate is an accurate measure of how many couples break up in a given time period. People who care about marriage can investigate to try to find out what causes breakups. This could be very useful.
    2. No one marries. The divorce rate plummets to zero. Victory for Traditional Values because “the divorce rate is ZERO!”.

    My anecdotal observation is that lower class (AKA poor) kids are more likely the kids of single mothers than once or still married ones, while in the middle class they are more likely to come from broken homes than single mothers. That said, my sample is small and the times are changing.

    Your sample is small and the change has accelerated.

  46. Original Laura says:

    @Red Pill Latecomer:

    Thanks for the link — I had never heard of that book. Would the reason for the lopsided sex ratio in Victorian England have been the Boer War or high rates of emigration among single men or something else entirely??? All I know is that Bertie Wooster had a bevy of maiden aunts.

    There’s no question that sex ratios matter a great deal and yet are under the radar for most people. I just saw an article about the “bachelor army” in China, and a couple of the young, working-class men interviewed said that they dreaded spending time with their parents, because the parents kept nagging them to get married when there simply were NO WOMEN available to them. The parents certainly must know that the sex ratio is skewed, but can’t wrap their heads around the reality that their son’s chances of marrying are vanishingly small no matter how much effort he puts into finding a wife.

  47. Frank K says:

    Even if a child lives with mom and dad who are cohabiting, and after they break up the child lives with mom, the practical effect on the child is the same as if they divorced.

    Agreed, but what percentage of kids are born into such households? I looked for stats, but the ones I found don’t break up the numbers at that level, it’s just “unmarried women”. I strongly suspect that few cohabitators have kids and don’t get married soon. From what I have heard and read, pulling an “oops” is still used as a way to get a man to commit, and is still very effective.

  48. Frank K says:

    The parents certainly must know that the sex ratio is skewed, but can’t wrap their heads around the reality that their son’s chances of marrying are vanishingly small no matter how much effort he puts into finding a wife.

    Most parents, especially mothers, believe that their little princes are above average and are great catches.

  49. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘America’s STD Epidemic Should Be Much Bigger News’

    http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/03/americas-std-epidemic-much-bigger-news/

  50. Anonymous Reader says:

    Frank K
    Agreed, but what percentage of kids are born into such households? I looked for stats, but the ones I found don’t break up the numbers at that level, it’s just “unmarried women”.

    Exactly. We could know, but apparently no one is asking all of the right questions at the same time. Therefore any “decline in divorce rate” could be a false indicator of family stability. In fact, it almost certainly is.

    I strongly suspect that few cohabitators have kids and don’t get married soon.
    From what I have heard and read, pulling an “oops” is still used as a way to get a man to commit, and is still very effective.

    In the Nordic countries back in the 1990’s it was common for men and women to live together but not marry until after the birth of the first child. Now it’s more often put off until after the birth of the second child, if ever.

    The rate of change has increased. Debates over polygamy are already starting.

  51. earlthomas786 says:

    Although there’s that slag with the YouTube video who bragged about how “I fucked four men today,” and how that made her more valuable as a woman, because she had more experience.

    Of note…she’s divorced. She’s that adulterous woman Proverbs warns about.

    I had some college 20-something also try to peddle that idea to me one time that her N experience will prepare her better for her husband. I flat out told her she’s ruining her chances of getting married and is a higher divorce risk.

  52. Lost Patrol says:

    If fewer people are marrying and fewer of those divorce, the divorce rate is in decline, so tradcon endzone dance party!

    I was forced to LOL.

  53. Anonymous Reader says:

    Red Pill Latecomer, Earl, other men:
    “Rationalization hamster” is not an empty phrase. You may enjoy some examples.

  54. earlthomas786 says:

    I’m aware of what the rationalization hamster is…I’m just curious if there’s another animal metaphor out there that basically eats the hamster up with truths.

  55. Jeff Strand says:

    RPL and Greenlander,

    I don’t blame you one bit for not marrying. The only reason I did is because I found a NAWALT who is, if anything, even more red pill than I am. She is a devoted housewife and mom, who hasn’t worked outside the house since her mid 20’s (15 years ago). Instead, her whole life is focused on taking care of our kids and household, and pleasing her husband. She respects me as the head of the household, submits to me and obeys me in all things (even on questions that relate to her life/health), never denies me sexual access, and has taken good care of herself physically so that she still turns heads now in her early 40’s. (and her husband still wants to jump her bones, after almost 20 years of marriage!).

    She is not only NOT a feminist, she is very specifically anti-feminist…and will get angry at the feminist propaganda you constantly see in movies and TV. And hardly a day goes by where she doesn’t take the time to tell me (or text me): “Thank you, for working so hard for me and the girls”.

    She also focuses on raising our daughters to be good wife/mother material, instead of focusing on career plans. She has been taking them to the nail salon and beauty parlor since they were little girls, so they are used to working on staying feminine and pretty. They take sewing and cooking classes, and some piano. For exercise they take tennis, which you can play wearing a skirt (or perhaps a skort, lol).

    At home, wifey makes sure to model for them her behavior of submitting to me as the head of the household. And we don’t hold back our affection – they often see us in a deep embrace, kissing, flirting etc. So to them, it seems very normal that they will also be so physically affectionate with their husbands.

    If God forbid, something happened to my wife I would never remarry. Because I could never find another like her. But in reality, there must be other red pill girls like her out there….they are just few and far between. But that’s the kind of girl you marry!

    P.S. Other people (such as wifey’s gf’s) who know about our relationship dynamics consider us “extreme”! Can you believe it! Of course, most of these other people are in miserable marriages…whereas me and the wife are happy as clams, lol.

    People are also freaked out when they ask my wife about her hopes for the future of our daughters, and she replies “I hope they will marry young, be housewives, and give us plenty of grandkids.” They look at her like she has two heads, lol.

    But we are truly raising our daughters so they will be red pill like their mom, and make excellent wives and mothers one day. I have to believe other parents are doing the same, so you young men reading this…don’t give up! But given that such women as my wife and (hopefully) daughters are in short supply today – so many girls have been ruined by feminism – I fully expect my daughters to have a very high MMV once they are on the market. They will have their pick when it comes to hubbies. Think about it – if they embody the same traits of my wife that I listed above, what ambitious young man with a lot going for him WOULDN’T want a wife like that?

  56. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    This is somehow regarded as newsworthy: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/28/sexists-need-not-apply-publisher-refuses-to-look-at-manuscripts-addressed-to-dear-sirs#img-1

    “Sexists need not apply” to the “dreaded women” who run Tramp Press, [sic]say the trail-blazing Irish independent publisher, which has announced it is closing its doors to “overtly sexist” submissions from writers who address them as “Dear Sirs”, or list only male influences.

  57. Morgan says:

    I like how Dalrock describes the division of sexual access, which emphasizes that this isn’t some women giving out free sex and ruining it for others. This is all women in their twenties ruining it for all women in their thirties. The fact that Wente is only now complaining about it tells me she’s in her thirties, and that even though she ruined it for thirty year olds in her twenties, she now wants twenty year olds to stop this behavior. Irony to hypocrisy in ten short years.

  58. freebird says:

    Unless one homeschools his children they will turn out the same as the generally dumb public.
    Even if one homeschools his children public school chad will be doing the approaching.
    Nothing for Timothy/FA (forever alone)

  59. thedeti says:

    From the “STD Epidemic” Piece earl posted:

    According to the CDC, one of the main trends driving this STD epidemic are hook-up apps like Tinder. Half of the new cases were among 18- to 24-year-olds. These apps make users feel like they are Greek gods who can magically conjure sexual partners out of the ether, swiping through an endless catalog of potential hook-ups.

    This is Brad Wilcox’ “Six Pack Craig” redux.

    I really have a need to understand where social science researchers are getting this notion that all single guys are out there having all this sex and all this Tinder/hookup “success”. What planet are they living on that they believe your average wage slave cubicle dweller is a total player/pick up artist? If that were the case, every bar and restaurant would be literally swarming with young men actually succeeding, regularly, in picking up and having sex with one or two new women every single week.

  60. W4K1 says:

    @Dalrock:

    as of 2006 Iceland had a higher rate of adolescent children living with both parents (70%) than the US (~60%).

    De-lurking for this. Do you happen to remember if it was specified whether they were the biological parents or not? Back when I lived there, there was an ovearabundance of women who’d have children with random men and would later marry someone else (the fact that they used the father’s name as the surname did give it away rather easily). This was seen as socially acceptable and perfectly fine, since presumably those men would have children with other women too, and have some other man raise them.

    I left a good decade and a half ago tho, so things might have changed, but I can’t imagine they did so for the better. Naturally, this was seen as a progressive utopia by the usual suspects (feminazis and their ilk):

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/may/18/iceland

    Of course, the astute reader will notice the date of that article, and remember the events that followed shortly after. Funny how all these feminist and leftists utopias work only as long as you have something you can burn today that’s borrowed from tomorrow.

  61. thedeti says:

    and it isn’t just young men either. Social scientists seem to think that all men, including older men, never married men in their 40s, and divorced men in their 40s and 50s are living it up on an endless party train of casual and no strings attached sex. Social scientists seem to think that if you’re not a married man, you’re a pickup artist with immediate access to all sorts of casual sex from all kinds of partners.

    Newsflash, guys – your average man, married, single, or whatever, cannot simply decide he wants sex and then get it. Hell, even a MARRIED man can’t just say “I want sex” and be provided it immediately. Your average man cannot go to a bar and pick up a woman he meets there for sex. Your average man does not have three women in his “rotation” he calls when he feels like having sex. Your average man cannot pull up his Tinder account and swipe right, and have sex with the woman he “swiped right” on within a few hours.

  62. Frank K says:

    Social scientists seem to think that if you’re not a married man, you’re a pickup artist with immediate access to all sorts of casual sex from all kinds of partners.

    I believe that this is what is known as a “narrative”. It is also said that those who control the narrative have the power. The social scientists who say rubbish like this are either clueless or are paid to spew such nonsense.

  63. Anonymous Reader says:

    @thedeti
    You raise a good question. Perhaps the answer is in two parts:
    First, projection – these researchers are definitely Betaized men, often from their chidlhood, so they tend to project their own fantasies of what they would do if they could out onto other men.

    Second, women – these researchers are very likely to take what women say at face value in a sympathetic, rather Beta-Orbiter fashion.

    In other words, they are subjective in their work, and blinded to reality.

  64. CSI says:

    I really have a need to understand where social science researchers are getting this notion that all single guys are out there having all this sex

    I don’t think very many, if any, social scientists are saying this. This is some people creatively interpreting social scientist results to fit their preconceived notions and to generate clickbaity articles like Wente’s.

    I imagine what Wente and her peers imagine would happen if they could somehow institute the vagina cartel and force men to marry. They must be imagining that under this regime they would get to marry the hottest guy they ever had sex. Actually they would probably marry an average beta guy, and this would be about the only man they ever had sex with. This is why the casual sex culture isn’t going away anytime soon. Because women don’t want it to.

  65. Anonymous Reader says:

    deti
    Your average man cannot pull up his Tinder account

    Your average man doesn’t even have a Tindr account.

    Plus a bit of research reveals the 80/20 rule applies on Tindr just as it does on OKCupid. Courtesy of Deep Strength:
    View story at Medium.com

    In the last year I’ve casually mentioned the 80/20 rule of women’s attraction to several churchgoing men, including one college campus pastor. Every one of them claimed to have never heard of this, and most were very skeptical.

    Given the demographic that academic marriage researchers come from, it should not be a surprise that they don’t know about it either.

  66. thedeti says:

    Frank, AR:

    I find this misconception not only in published research, but also just ordinary women.

    Women are convinced that all single men are out there having as much sex as they are. That is apex fallacy – they’re seeing only the men they themselves have sex with/want to have sex with.

  67. seventiesjason says:

    Saw this the reckless, carefree early 1990’s in college. College aged women giving sex pretty easily to that 20% of guys for the most part. Saw it in dot.com era San Francisco and Silicon Valley. Spare me the skewed gender ratio…..there never was a shortage of women having plenty o’ sex with that top 20%. Saw it in post 9-11 life. Saw it in the swanky nightclub I worked in. I see it now in Fresno.

    Now that I am downshifting towards fifty….no, I don’t have a condo or a sportscar…but I do have a solid chunk of investments, and retirement that will be stable. I have Christ. My sobriety. I have a life and its pretty good.

    I will not though be shamed, have my gender maligned because of a woman’s choices, hypergamy, sin and piss poor choices SHE made with men and her body. That’s on her. I don’t need to step up, be a hero to, chase, pursue, “guard her heart” or date because she only a has two good eggs left. Life is full of consequences. Women need to deal with them. Their frustration is going to get worse because unlike Title IX, Affirmative Action, countless “programs” that enabled them…..in this situation there is no “government program” that can make me date, marry or bother with them. Make your bed, sleep in it as grandpa used to say….

  68. Spike says:

    All I can say to Ms Wente and the likes of her is (please excuse): No F**king kidding!
    Women once did have the said sex cartel she describes. A woman saved her chastity for marriage, saved money, saved a glory box of sheets, towels, crockery – all of the things required for homemaking. She held out for the best offer of a man to whom she committed for life.
    That was then.
    Now, there is just gross consumption.
    The sex cartel got destroyed. Who destroyed it? it wouldn’t perchance be the Sisters of the Seventies who all bought into the lies of Betty Friedan, Germaine Greer, Gloria Steinem and other hideous monsters? If it wasn’t, can any woman of that age explain why these authors were so widely read?
    Unfortunately for Ms Wente, it isn’t the chickens coming home to roost, but rather the post-egg laying boiler hens. And the Little Red Roosters just aren’t obeying the rules anymore, because they know they’ll just get hen-pecked for it.

  69. honeycomb says:

    70’s jason ..
    Life is full of consequences. Women need to deal with them. Their frustration is going to get worse because unlike Title IX, Affirmative Action, countless “programs” that enabled them…..in this situation there is no “government program” that can make me date, marry or bother with them. Make your bed, sleep in it as grandpa used to say….

    That isn’t how they want it to work .. it’s a man’s fault .. it’s a man’s problem .. i’m a princess .. why hasn’t anyone saved me so I can assume my rightful role of Queen King of his MY castle .. I DON’T NEED A MAN (divorce rape fantasy .. back to riding strange cocka’s on his my money .. which I earned) rant.

    sigh .. and the hamster keeps spinning

  70. Dalrock says:

    @w4k1
    That is a good question. I know that for the US the man mommy is currently shacking up with is often counted as “dad”. I’ll look at the data file tomorrow and see what I can find.

  71. earlthomas786 says:

    I really have a need to understand where social science researchers are getting this notion that all single guys are out there having all this sex and all this Tinder/hookup “success”.

    Well the one thing I noticed he didn’t mention was how a lot of the new STD cases came from homosexual men. I don’t know where gay men would fit in the ‘20%’ but that demographic has some of the highest partner counts (even higher than your common Western woman)…and I wouldn’t be naive to think they may sometimes have a few women in that count.

  72. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I think this has been posted before, but it’s gold, worth repeating. Especially at the 5.00 mark, where he begins talking about Alpha Widows (though he doesn’t use that term).

  73. Post Alley Crackpot says:

    They already have a cartel, and you can find it in the divorce courts.

    BUT …

    If they’d like to be brought up on racketeering charges, maybe guys can start taking more than half of their stuff back.

  74. Novaseeker says:

    Newsflash, guys – your average man, married, single, or whatever, cannot simply decide he wants sex and then get it. Hell, even a MARRIED man can’t just say “I want sex” and be provided it immediately. Your average man cannot go to a bar and pick up a woman he meets there for sex. Your average man does not have three women in his “rotation” he calls when he feels like having sex. Your average man cannot pull up his Tinder account and swipe right, and have sex with the woman he “swiped right” on within a few hours.

    Very true.

    But notice that Regnerus pulls a sleight of hand in his book by lumping porn/masturbation together with Tinder and hookups and “cheap sex”. Porn and masturbation are sexual sin, but they are not sex. Porn use doesn’t lower the price of sex, it takes men out of the market because they satiate their sex drives with porn — this is a problem, but it has nothing to do with women giving men sex too easily and “cheaply”. But by lumping porn together with hookups and tinder, he can basically ensnare a much larger percentage of men in his rather shoddy analysis.

  75. FrustratedBeta says:

    I keep switching between my natural desire to find a wife and my knowledge of the risks/reward. I get angrier and angrier thinking about the state of a society where it’s easier to get a hooker online than to find a woman who won’t bail on me and financially ream me, like tungsten carbide through low carbon steel. Anyway, thanks for your hard work on the blog and exposing all this.

  76. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker
    But by lumping porn together with hookups and tinder, he can basically ensnare a much larger percentage of men in his rather shoddy analysis.

    It’s worse than that. Including masturbation to porn in the “cheap sex” category along with Tinder-aided hookups is false. It is a false premise. It is like, oh, producing a paper on how often married people have sexual intercourse and including data on prostitutes. It doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

    A false premise means his conclusions have no meaning. His analysis isn’t just shoddy, it’s meaningless. Oh, he’ll get some face time on TV and some print in the MSM for 15 minutes, but he’s damaged his reputation as a researcher with this foolish blunder.

  77. Dale says:

    I keep switching between my natural desire to find a wife and my knowledge of the risks/reward.

    +1

  78. greenlander says:

    @Bee

    I thought you moved to Eastern Europe or Russia to find a good woman. Am I mistaken? Did that work out for you?

    @Red Pill Latecomer

    My parents married in Eastern Europe before immigrating to the U.S. They were married for over 50 years before dying. They too wanted grandchildren, which I never gave them. They thought it weird that I never married. I was financially successful. I wasn’t hideous.

    My mother wondered if I was gay. She would never have believed that most modern American women are not attracted to polite, boring professionals. Or that so many modern American women, when they are finally ready marry, are already single mothers with other men’s children.

    Actually, I’m doing quite well. I like it here and it’s like going back forty years in time in terms of how men and women relate to one another. I’m dating a woman twenty years younger. But I don’t feel particularly compelled to wife this one up. And she’s not long out of a long-term relationship, so she’s just enjoying time with me and the novelty of dating a foreigner with a good life. She’s not looking to lock down a husband right away. So it works for us for the time being.

    My income is even higher than when I was working in a cube farm in Silicon Valley, and I’m completely free. I spent ten weeks exploring southeast Asia and Austrailia earlier this year with no agenda and no obligations. I spent two weeks in Spain and Portugal this summer. I’ll probably spend a month around Lake Tahoe visiting friends and family in November. This kind of travel would have never been possible in my previous life with my four weeks of vacation every year. I’m much happier here in my life abroad than I was in the Silicon Valley cube farm.

    I’m open to getting married, but it will have to be with the right person. I’ve discovered what some others in the manosphere like Roosh have figured out after you get your fill of women: they cannot bring you happiness. You can only find it within. The window of time to form a family is closing for me. But so what if I die without children? Is it really such a joy? I don’t have any, so I’m certainly no expert, but I suspect it’s a lot like the issue with women. If you find happiness within yourself, you’ll find happiness within yourself. If you think you’ll find it in children, you’ll be disappointed.

    @Jeff Strand

    Thanks for the comment.

  79. imnobody00 says:

    The problem, of course, is that men have been remarkably slow in adapting to the new sexual market created by feminism and the pill. For the last 40 years, women have been able to hugely degrade the quality of the product (product = bride), to break the cartel that made marriages possible for millennia, remove most incentives for men to get married and, nevertheless, men have still been willing to put a ring on it. As Dalrock has studied, most women have been able to marry and still are.

    So, for the last 40 years, women have been able to eat their cake and have it too. 40 years is a long time. Most young women have grown by watching their mothers and elder sisters pulling off a AF/BB so they consider it their birthright, the way things are and should be. Add a dose of Hollywood films and Lifetime movies and they are unable to conceive a different world.

    Now, men are starting to adapt to the new sexual market. Some women are unable to stick the landing (a very small minority, so far). Women are astonished. They didn’t foresee that coming. They thought that men would always be willing to marry, even if all incentives are removed from marriage because… this is the way things have always been (“always” means “the last decades”, but they don’t seem to notice).

  80. Jeff Strand says:

    This is absolute gold:

    http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a12048721/marry-a-feminist/

    She’s virtue signaling about how she’s gonna marry a feminist guy. I wonder who she’s trying to convince? Her fiancé is described as a cartoon version of the Lefty male feminist – a sackless wussbag who’s so thrilled to be “getting some” that his number one job is to sit quietly and pour her a glass of wine, while she bitches about what all the alpha men are doing. I poop you negative!

    You couldn’t make this up. You almost wonder if it’s a joke. But notice the pictures that accompany the article…I mean, just look at the guy! How does this happen? Did he not have a father, brothers, any close male friends? He’s almost worse than a homo. Just pathetic.

  81. Anon says:

    thedeti,

    This is Brad Wilcox’ “Six Pack Craig” redux.

    If one looks like this, it is less surprising that they might think every guy is ‘Six Pack Craig’ :

    Physiognomy is real.

  82. Anon says:

    Dalrock said :

    Then, once women reach what Rollo calls the epiphany phase, they want to bargain sexual access in their remaining (older and less fertile) years for maximum beta bucks.

    Jim Gay-ratty disagrees. He thinks this is a positive evolution in female attraction, and that a woman is actually attracted to the beta schlub at this point. Hence, ‘Ward Cleaver is a Stud’.

    So Jim Gay-ratty actually recognizes the epiphany phase, but does not realize that her attraction triggers have not changed. Plus, he thinks that a high N is not a negative. Jim Gay-ratty himself married a single mother, and admits that he now lives under daily threatpoint (yet he rationalizes this as something good).

  83. Anon says:

    thedeti,

    Social scientists seem to think that all men, including older men, never married men in their 40s, and divorced men in their 40s and 50s are living it up on an endless party train of casual and no strings attached sex. Social scientists seem to think that if you’re not a married man, you’re a pickup artist with immediate access to all sorts of casual sex from all kinds of partners.

    It is GOOD that they think that!

    It makes them envious, which is the sort of punishment that manginas and cuckservatives deserve.

  84. Mark says:

    @Dalrock

    Great post Mister “D”. I was hoping that you would read that link posted by NickMgtow from the previous thread.As someone who has the G & M waiting at his front door every morning I can tell you that it is a great paper and is not “fake news”.It is a great daily,the National Post is second….and the Toronto Star?….is not even on the radar! Also,I must say that the article made quite a few waves as I found it to be the talk of the office.I did not have to point it out to men or women as they had already read it.From what a few women have confided in me is that “things are much worse than the article describes”. I believe it.There are more women than men in Toronto and TO is MGTOW capital of NA.

    @greenlander

    “”I’ve discovered what some others in the manosphere like Roosh have figured out after you get your fill of women: they cannot bring you happiness.””

    ^^^^^^This!…..cannot agree more!

    @deti

    “”Your average man cannot pull up his Tinder account and swipe right, and have sex with the woman he “swiped right” on within a few hours.””

    I have never looked at Tinder.I have looked at a few sites that friends use that they have good luck with it.The most popular is http://www.modelqualityintroductions.com. There are really HAWT women on this site.I have watched friends have great success with it.The funny thing is that the women are all in their 30’s and they all want successful men in their 40’s & 50’s.No surprise there. The surprise is that all the same women seem to be on this site for years! If they are so HAWT and awesome?…they can’t bag a man?…WTF? A couple of friends of mine have dated about 50 of these women all over North America.They are not looking for a wife…they just like screwing hawt women.If anyone here decides to give this site a try I would caution you that it is pricey!

  85. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    earlthomas786 says: “And her giving sex away that easily isn’t going to make her attractive to a responsible man who wants a moral wife.”

    It also won’t make her attractive to the non-religious man who just wants an average wife. Men instinctively don’t want a woman who has been around because it signals she’ll be a flight risk, esp. when there are kids involved. Lots of men = irresponsible wife and mother.

    This feeling that men get about trampy women isn’t “societal,” because it’s seen in some form or another in most societies. It’s biological in basis and eventually there will be studies showing as much (if there aren’t already). For now, we have the studies showing that with every partner a woman has, it upps her odds of divorce* — and her husband’s of being taken to the cleaners.

    * https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/why-sluts-make-bad-wives/

  86. “It isn’t that women no longer want to marry beta providers, they just don’t want to waste a day more of their youth and fertility on their husband than absolutely necessary.”
    They don’t want to waste a day of their fertility (I’ll leave the “youth” out of it), do they? Fertility as in, their attractiveness to bad boys? Because as they waste their youth and beauty, their fertility is going down the drain, too. The two are different attributes. The booze and drugs at the club and girls’ nights out and sheer folly of decades on hormonal birth control necessary to the female YOLO lifestyle KILLS fertility. Waste their fertility? Ok, let’s do that some more, ladies. Throw in a couple or three bouts with warts, herpes, chlamydia. Those Papilloma warts turn to cancer, that is IF the doctor misses them, which they can because YOLO girls are careless about their Gyno-care to begin with. Also, God forbid you catch a Hep A-Z and for REAL fun, a little HIV from all the bondage-and-anal sex fun 20-40 year-old girls are saving their fertility for. Lastly, a real YOLO girl also has a couple of abortions under her belt, too.

    Where does the “wasting her fertility on her husband” come from? She wasted, spent or ruined her fertility with all of the above maladies that result from sex with 100+ guys from high school to age 35. Chicks give a crap about their fertility. Maybe the clock ticks on them starting in their thirties, but they don’t care to think of it, indeed do all they can to kill it.

    As for marriage and betas? The ladies wanting to snag a beta for cash and prizes are starting to be flat out of luck. There is progress being made. I run across guys all over, I run across them at motorcycle meets, the bars, the golf course, guys with some dough, with decent careers, and these are guys in their thirties and early forties and they LAUGH at the notion of marriage. They’re dating late-teenies and twenties. To a man they can count off the influential mean in their lives with all their fingers and all their toes from uncles to teachers, the friends of their father and fathers of their friends and especially, their OWN fathers, crippled, ruined and jailed for nothing because they got married and started families and the old lady divorced them Eat, Pray, Love style. Now grown, they see the lies told to them by the mothers. Plus, they’re out there banging these divorced mothers and women in their thirties who never married, these guys aren’t about to get married. They understand how diseased, how infected are their minds, how easy are they to bed. Who wants that for a wife but an IDIOT?

    Waste their fertility on their husbands? They couldn’t care less.

  87. “Waste their fertility on their husbands? They couldn’t care less.”

    That is, until they can’t get what they want, the child support stream that results from children.

    THEN they worry about their fertility, expensively.

  88. earlthomas786 says:

    But notice the pictures that accompany the article…I mean, just look at the guy! How does this happen?

    I think some guys are ok with being emasculated that they embrace being effeminate. If you ever notice the hardcore sexually immoral feminists don’t ever marry a masculine man…it’s either an effeminate man or even a closeted homosexual.

    There is certainly a look male feminists have. And I don’t believe for a second they aren’t misogynists. Misogyny is at the heart of feminism and they project that onto those who love femininity in women.

  89. earlthomas786 says:

    The ladies wanting to snag a beta for cash and prizes are starting to be flat out of luck. There is progress being made. I run across guys all over, I run across them at motorcycle meets, the bars, the golf course, guys with some dough, with decent careers, and these are guys in their thirties and early forties and they LAUGH at the notion of marriage.

    BUT THAT’S NOT FAIR! LADIES ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE PARTYING TIMES AND THEN THE BETA MEN SHOULD ‘MAN UP AND MARRY HER’ SO SHE CAN HAVE HER GOLDEN PARACHUTE. HOW DARE THEY CHANGE HER PLAN BASED ON WHAT THEY SEE AND EXPERIENCE.

  90. earl says:

    This feeling that men get about trampy women isn’t “societal,” because it’s seen in some form or another in most societies. It’s biological in basis and eventually there will be studies showing as much (if there aren’t already).

    It takes a weapon’s grade rationalization hamster for men to overcome that natural feeling they get when they know a woman is a tramp. Often it starts from other women shaming him or yelling pastor who demands they man up.

  91. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Jeff Strand

    When feminists ask where the good men have gone, is that the guy they are looking for? She seems thrilled at finding him. If this is the future we are now building, we deserve to be zeroed out.

  92. Moses says:

    You’re gonna love this one Dalrock. Married women adultery rates way up, but it’s because they’re cheeky heroines trying to save their marriages and it’s all men’s fault anyway.

    The changing reasons why women cheat on their husbands – CNN
    https://apple.news/AO9JydUJNTGmVGevgnO6t6g

  93. feeriker says:

    Often it starts from other women shaming him or yelling pastor who demands they man up.

    I hope some red-piller with balls some day asks a shaming pastorbator what his own wife’s pre-marital N-count was. If the pastorbatlr were to push back or take offense at the question, he should be shamed for not following the advice he dispenses to the men of his own congregation. What’s sauce for the gander …

  94. earl says:

    Feels, lack of ’emotional intimacy’, not getting enough good feel validation for their work, etc. I still fail to see how that justifies blowing up a marriage and family. Guess it’s the man’s fault.

    Of course they still never mention the Pill either.

  95. PokeSalad says:

    When the ladies have a Mercedes, everyone gets free rides. When it turns into a Hyundai, now she wants to charge premium price.

  96. earl says:

    When the ladies think theyhave a Mercedes, everyone gets free rides. When she finds out she’s actually a flooded out lemon, now she wants to charge premium price.

    /fixed

  97. PokeSalad says:

    I really have a need to understand where social science researchers are getting this notion that all single guys are out there having all this sex and all this Tinder/hookup “success”. What planet are they living on that they believe your average wage slave cubicle dweller is a total player/pick up artist?

    This lie is important for the Narrative, in that even in Tinder-land (where there are so many choices and such ’empowerment’) women can still be portrayed as helpless “victims” of an omnipresent, malevolent PUA-infested environment run for the exclusive benefit of the “patriarchy.”

  98. Höllenhund says:

    The problem is that young men now look at the men 3-5 (and even 5-10) years older than them and don’t see an indication that signaling provider status will make them attractive to women. They also see a society that holds married fathers in contempt.

    It’s not just that. It seems that newly married men face a different social situation than before. Back in the old days, they normally had a social life outside their role as a husband as well – they were members of men-only clubs or other forms of all-male social groups, spent a larger part of their free-time with male friends etc. In other words, they spent more time with single men that today. It’s also true that families and social circles were normally larger as well.

    Today, being a young husband and father is an experience that is socially much more isolating, so to say. It’s like your entire identity is wrapped up in your role as a husband and a father. When a man marries, or merely enters a relationship that eventually results in marriage, his entire social life transforms. He cuts ties with his single male friends and associates almost entirely, mostly due to pressure from his wife. He gives up his hobbies etc., and undergoes enormous betaization. The only men he’ll be in contact with from then on will be his co-workers, the husbands of his wife’s girlfriends i.e. newly married shlubs like himself, and some male relatives. He basically ends up living in a bubble, under his wife’s control, with almost no free time at all, no social life outside his family and workplace. Which is not that surprising in an increasingly atomized world of small families.

    And in the old days, all sorts of men got married, and normally did so at a young age – alphas, betas, omegas, pretty much everyone. It fostered some sense of brotherhood. All sorts of dudes in your social circle got married, but they still kept in touch with you afterwards. Today, only higher betas and some alphas get married, and they normally delay marriage as well. Omegas and betas can’t get married even if they want to, which they increasingly don’t, and alphas have fewer reasons to marry at all than ever before. This creates a situation where married men with children are a smaller and more homogeneous social group than before, and there’s less and less empathy between married men and single men.

  99. Fiddlesticks says:

    @Jeff Strand
    You couldn’t make this up. You almost wonder if it’s a joke. But notice the pictures that accompany the article…I mean, just look at the guy! How does this happen?

    So many takeaways from this.
    1) husband is actually quite high-status. He’s a writer for Stephen Colbert’s nightly CBS show. His dad is an attorney and an executive in a wealthy Chicago suburb.
    2) husband is what Heartiste would call a “herb.” In other words, a geeky, soft guy from an environment that was so sheltered, educated and affluent that he could express his inner dweebiness without getting battered for it during his formative years the way your run-of-the-mill middle-class “nerd” would have.
    3) Jennifer conceals his privileged background (only nod to his career is the reference to him being “funny”) in an attempt to universalize her experience and trick your cube-bound beta-next-door into trying this strategy and of course failing miserably.
    4) Bride is also daughter of hard-charging executives. You see this all the time nowadays. Liberal authorettes who have the luxury of pursuing “patriarchy-busting” writing careers thanks to decades of sweat from their alpha-provider, nominally conservative corporate-ladder dads. Dad is being disrespected but will inevitably beam about how “proud” he is of his daughter.

    Here’s the lucky couple’s wedding announcement.

  100. Höllenhund says:

    The problem, of course, is that men have been remarkably slow in adapting to the new sexual market created by feminism and the pill.

    It’s because, for most of them, there was nothing new to adapt to. For the majority of men, the Sexual Revolution never happened. The rules newer chanced: investment (of time, money, labour, resources) is to be traded for sexual access and the opportunity of fatherhood.

  101. Durasim says:

    Men don’t have to prove themselves as providers any more. They can get all the sex they want anyway – including online porn on demand that can make the real thing feel mildly disappointing.

    So Wente thinks that consuming pornography counts as “getting” sex?

    I thought the presumption was that males who use pornography are unfit and unqualified to have female interaction? But now we’re supposed to count pornography users as equivalent to the successful rakes and cads?

    I guess Regnerus and Wente don’t want to bother distinguishing between brands of contempt anymore.

  102. Höllenhund says:

    Women don’t have to prove themselves as mothers and wives any more. They can get all the romanticism they want anyway – including romance novels, online erotica and female fan fiction on demand that can make the real thing feel mildly disappointing.

  103. Speaking of which and it seems everyone has come out from delurking.

    D’ http://nypost.com/2015/02/14/can-an-invisible-boyfriend-convince-your-friends-youre-hitched/

    Invisible Boyfriend App!! – methinks I have a dream speech went a little too far.

  104. earl says:

    From the Jennifer Wright article two things stood out:

    But, since I met my fiancé three years ago—who I’m marrying this Saturday—I always include one prayer for myself. It’s a very small prayer, so I don’t think it’s cheating.

    I pray that I get to die first.

    People always think that’s a gruesome thing to wish for, but I think the really gruesome thing was the loneliness that preceded him.

    That’s not to say I was alone. I dated people before my fiancé. I loved some of them, and some of them loved me. But, sometimes, when we were sitting in bed doing the crossword I would ask why they loved me. Some people said that it…followed by other female hamsterization nonsense.

    Wouldn’t you just love to read your fiance praying she dies first in a marriage just days before you get married followed by the hamsterization explanation…and then also reading her subtly revealing to the whole world her sexual immorality*.

    *Of course I don’t overtly know if she was sexually immoral. If the only thing she did with those men in bed was the crossword, I’ll eat the crow. But it’s an interesting sentence to put in there.

  105. Höllenhund says:

    You couldn’t make this up. You almost wonder if it’s a joke. But notice the pictures that accompany the article…I mean, just look at the guy! How does this happen? Did he not have a father, brothers, any close male friends?

    Maybe had one brother, or none at all, which is more likely. A few male friends, all of whom were raised to be herbs, in the same way he was, and all of them are in the same social bubble.

  106. Chris says:

    LOL @ Fiddlesticks’s post. Pray for that guy. More than once.

  107. earl says:

    Women don’t have to prove themselves as mothers and wives any more.

    And then female writers/tradcon men go on their soapbox and wonder where all the good men went…mainly because more men are seeing what path the feminist women and tradcon princesses are taking and they decide they don’t have to prove themselves as good father/husband material to them any more. They shame the Peter Pan but never shame the Party Princess.

  108. Novaseeker says:

    You’re gonna love this one Dalrock. Married women adultery rates way up, but it’s because they’re cheeky heroines trying to save their marriages and it’s all men’s fault anyway.

    The changing reasons why women cheat on their husbands – CNN
    https://apple.news/AO9JydUJNTGmVGevgnO6t6g

    Yep, I saw that one.

    Basically when women cheat, it’s an act of liberation, of freedom, a way of coping with unmet needs while not blowing up their marriages. And when men cheat of course it’s because they’re selfish, inconsiderate, narcissistic assholes who couldn’t care less about their wives and families, those jerks. Yep — mainstream media 101.

    But for me, folks, the main takeaway for men should be this: female infidelity is *through the roof*. This should surprise no-one really — I mean you don’t go from riding the carousel with sexy guys for years to being suddenly sexually/emotionally satiated with your BB when you’re 34. You just don’t. Once you’ve had a go at slurping up all of that exciting, yummy, hot guy sex, you’re going to always want it.

    These women like their BB husbands — that isn’t surprising either. Women choose BBs whom they like, they really do. They want to raise kids with them, they want to spend time with them. They will even have sex with them from time to time, but they aren’t passionate about them the way they were for X/Y/Z before they turned 32 and decided X/Y/Z couldn’t/wouldn’t marry them (or that she shouldn’t marry them). She misses them — maybe not X/Y/Z specifically, but the experience of them, the excitement of them, the erotic thrill of them. These are “needs” she has built up from riding the carousel, and she feels very unfulfilled when they go unmet — and, as much as she likes/”loves” her BB, he can’t fulfill those needs because he’s the kind of guy she wouldn’t give the time of day to when she was carouseling.

    This isn’t rare, guys. Read the article. The author implies that many of her friends were cheating on their husbands — multiple times. One woman had overlapping affairs with different guys over the past 5 years. Another quipped she was 100% faithful, other than during her monthly business trips** (see my note below). Another confessed to seeing affairs as being the only way to hold marriage together, or that when she was having affairs she was nicer to her BB and not a “bitch” (okay when women use the word to describe themselves I guess). This is happening all over the place, it’s as common as white on rice today among attractive wives — take this article as a warning.

    Don’t think so? That’s because women are extraordinarily good at hiding their infidelities. The author herself here was SHOCKED at what was actually going on and she herself had no idea. That’s how good they are at hiding this. That time she comes home a bit later than usual from the office, she very well may still be savoring the taste of the other guy’s semen in her mouth when she gives you a peck on the cheek. You’ll never know, because she’s so good at hiding it that even her BFFs don’t know.

    You have been warned, guys. Folks like Regneus and Wente should take things like this into account when understanding why young men are behaving as they are. Who on earth would want to be married to a woman who thinks like the women in the article — yet it seems so many think that way that it may be impossible to avoid. Precisely.

    —-

    ** — Protip, based on personal experience: if your wife is anyway attractive (and especially if she is a a looker), be very wary of a lot of business trips. It is extraordinarily common for wives to hook up with other men on business trips — as in really quite common. They either use them to hook up regularly with a guy from work whom they travel with, or they set up dates via hookup sites beforehand, or they simply go out looking to be picked up, but believe me, there is a TON of this happening on business trips and mostly these married women feel very entitled to do it and are unabashed. They don’t even remove their rings or anything. If you have an attractive wife, and she travels a lot on business, you have to know that there is a high likelihood she’s stepping out on you when she’s away, and that she feels almost no remorse for doing so (because “it’s her outlet”, or “it’s no harm when I’m away because it isn’t local” or a hundred and one other reasons that will eventually turn up in a CNN article). Again, you’ve been warned.

  109. earl says:

    But for me, folks, the main takeaway for men should be this: female infidelity is *through the roof*. This should surprise no-one really — I mean you don’t go from riding the carousel with sexy guys for years to being suddenly sexually/emotionally satiated with your BB when you’re 34. You just don’t. Once you’ve had a go at slurping up all of that exciting, yummy, hot guy sex, you’re going to always want it.

    Nailed it novaseeker. And they wonder why a man takes their past seriously…unrepentant sexual immorality in a woman is one of the biggest red flags.

    The fornicating carousel rider before marriage gets enough ‘experience’ to learn how to be an adulterous women in marriage.

  110. “They can get all the sex they want anyway – including online porn on demand that can make the real thing feel mildly disappointing.”

    Anyone have some links to some of this “better than sex with an actual woman” porn?
    Asking for a friend.

  111. Oscar says:

    @ greenlander says:
    October 4, 2017 at 11:42 pm

    “I’m open to getting married, but it will have to be with the right person.”

    Where have I heard that before?

    “I’ve discovered what some others in the manosphere like Roosh have figured out after you get your fill of women: they cannot bring you happiness.”

    You could’ve read Ecclesiastes and learned that.

    “The window of time to form a family is closing for me. But so what if I die without children? Is it really such a joy?”

    Yes.

  112. earl says:

    “I’ve discovered what some others in the manosphere like Roosh have figured out after you get your fill of women: they cannot bring you happiness.”

    Much like another famous cad who figured it out after a conversion…

    ”Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee.”
    -St. Augustine

  113. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Novaseeker

    Re wives’ infidelity. I’ll add this.

    Back in the 90’s I remember talking to a coworker who was an older guy – his heyday had been the “Swinging Seventies”. He told about a time back then where on a business trip he was spending the day at reasonably-priced hotel in the Ft Lauderdale area (not a super swanky or expensive place, more like a Motor Inn)

    He noticed a larger than usual number of single women by the pool. They weren’t young gals in their teens or early twenties. So being the stud he was back in his prime, he chatted one up, gave her a few drinks from a bottle of booze he had with him, and next thing you know he’s banging her in his hotel room. Right in the middle of the afternoon! This chick he just met!

    He knew something was weird about this, but of course he wasn’t gonna complain. But once they were done, he figured he had nothing to lose so he asked her “What gives? This doesn’t just happen.”

    He said she was so impressed that he called her out like that, that she told him the whole story. Hold onto your hat! Here’s what she told him:

    She came to the hotel with all the other women he saw by the pool – they’re a group.

    They’re all married.

    They live several hundred miles away, in the Tampa area.

    They formed a “girl’s club” and a couple times a year they organize a trip out of town

    While on the trip, all they do is fornicate like animals. As a matter of fact, that’s the only point of the trip. So they pick places to go where they’re likely to get laid with ease.

    Their clueless hubbies are happy to let them go on these trips – not only it seems to make the wives happy, but the idiot hubbies actually look forward to some time at home without Wifey

    She told him the women sometimes get a little catty and competitive on the trip, vying with each other to see who can be the biggest whore. She pointed out one woman by the pool who she claimed was winning on this trip, having gotten laid an average of twice a day so far.

    The women justify all this by promising to remain faithful the rest of the time, meaning when they’re at home. These trips just allow them to “blow off steam”. She claimed the group was very serious about enforcing this “you don’t foul your own nest” concept, to the point that if one of them cheated regularly at home (as in, found a boyfriend to have an affair with)…that woman would be shunned, ostracized, and basically kicked out of the group. The “rules” are that the women can ONLY cheat while on their out of town trips, and all the women agreed to abide by this.

    And finally, it was working great! So far none of the clueless hubbies seemed to suspect anything. (I can’t recall how long she told my buddy this had been going on)

    There you have it. I can vouch this is legit – he had a lot of crazy stories from his “Swinging Seventies” days and I can tell it was on the level. Not only based on the level of details he effortlessly provided, but who the hell could make this stuff up?

    Twenty years ago now that he told me this story, and I have never forgotten it. Just wow. Make of it what you will.

  114. Novaseeker says:

    The fornicating carousel rider before marriage gets enough ‘experience’ to learn how to be an adulterous women in marriage.

    It’s very true, but the key thing to remember is that it’s basically the same behavior, when looked at in the grand scheme of things — it’s just that it’s simultaneous instead of serial.

    So, looked at in serial terms, we notice “lane changing” or switching from pursuing AFs for fun and sex to pursuing BBs for marriage and kids during the “epiphany phase” of between 28-34 depending on location and SES, etc.

    But AF/BB doesn’t stop once they marry. Nope. Women still want AF/BB and always will because BB can never satisfy their need for AF. If anything they will go without BB if needed (they prefer to have a BB, most of them, if they can find a good enough one), but they won’t go without AF unless they happened to win the lottery and marry an AB. So either they will divorce the BB eventually and go back to the serial approach (in reverse) or, increasingly, as we see in the article, they will avoid the divorce route, and just do AF and BB AT THE SAME TIME. It’s still AF/BB, but instead of being in series (i.e., AF first, then BB, then back to AF after divorce), it’s AF and BB at the same time, because women are extremely good at hiding what they are doing and so many BBs are just loopy dupes.

    My own view is that as we go forward this will become more open. Why? You can tell from the tone of that CNN article, how approving or at least studied in its non-criticism it is. The behavior is being legitimized, these are the early phases of that in terms of laying the groundwork for legitimizing it. At some point the argument is going to be made that it is very unfair for men to place the burden on women of having to hide themselves and sneak around and so on, just because of their outdated jealousy and possessiveness, and that men need to be supportive of their wives in this area as well. It will come, trust me. Not tomorrow, but it’s coming. This is the laying of the groundwork for it.

  115. Jeff Strand says:

    Almost forgot to add:

    She also told him that none of the women had any desire to blow up their familes, divorce their hubby, or anything like that. The way she told it, it’s like their adulterous road trips were just a hobby and welcome diversion from boring, humdrum suburban family life.

    She said they all loved their husbands, and that when at home and not on these road trips, they were all “good wives and mothers”, to the point that they “gave their husbands no cause to complain”. And I’m guessing she sincerely believed this.

    So I guess that’s how they justified their behavior…to themselves and each other. Talk about a rationalization hamster!

  116. earl says:

    it’s AF and BB at the same time, because women are extremely good at hiding what they are doing and so many BBs are just loopy dupes.

    There’s also a subset of BB men who flat out knew of the infidelity but chose to overlook it. I knew of one case where the guy told me he knew of the infidelity but was in denial about it. I also heard on a sports talk show where the BB man was talking and showing to the other guys photos of his wife and her gfs on a girl’s concert trip in a Caribbean island and even those blue pill guys pointed out the men hanging around his wife and eluded to her potential infidelity. Women might have been more discrete about it back in the day…but anymore it’s becoming more clear what ‘business trips’, ‘girls night out’, or ‘girls only trips’, are actually about.

  117. earl says:

    They formed a “girl’s club” and a couple times a year they organize a trip out of town

    Funny how in the Bible the adulterous woman did her work from home while her husband was out of town on a trip…now they go on trips away from home & husband to be adulterous women. Same heart, different location and means of doing it.

  118. PokeSalad says:

    @Jeff Strand

    Imagine the reaction if one replaced all the “wives” references with “husbands”. Hehe

  119. Jeff Strand says:

    @ PokeSalad,

    Indeed. But the entire thing wouldn’t work with the genders reversed. Because the men would not be able to get laid at will on the road trip, like the wives were doing. Remember, the “winner” for biggest whore on that specific trip was averaging two lovers a day!

    For virtually every man, such a thing is impossible (unless he pays for it)

  120. Novaseeker says:

    @Jeff —

    Oh I don’t doubt it. It’s truism that husbands who are “down” with GNOs and girls-only vacations (while married) and so on are either actively in denial, don’t care, or a mixture of both. It’s been known for a long time that these are often covers for stepping out, or at least testing the waters for it — that is, even if she doesn’t step out on a GNO, she is certainly going to slurp up all the male attention she can, note who it is coming from, and the like, to test the waters in an environment where women present themselves “to be visually evaluated” by men.

    The thing today is that while there are at least some guys who are not stupid enough as to condone GNOs, what they don’t know is that a business trip is the same as a girls vacation, especially if it is a regular thing. They don’t see the danger that they would with a GNO, but the danger is real.

    Let me give you a personal example from my days after I graduated from grad school, when I was still away from the Church (I came back in the mid-90s, this incident happened in a couple of years before that). So there was a girl another guy (he was a friend of mine) and I were competing for, a bit, in grad school, if you will. She liked both of us but chose him to marry. That was fine, actually, although I pretty much knew she still liked me as well. Well scroll forward a few years and she is on a business trip in the city where I worked at the time and wanted to know if I wanted to get together for drinks. I did so, and it was a very interesting experience to say the least. Now, I didn’t betray my friend there, but if I had wanted to it was made plainly clear without using words that I could do so. And that it wouldn’t change anything about her marriage and all that, etc.

    Folks, this is literally happening all the time. If you don’t think so, you’re blind, really.

  121. Mr. Generic says:

    Well, since everyone else is coming out of lurk-mode today…

    @ Novaseeker

    I mean you don’t go from riding the carousel with sexy guys for years to being suddenly sexually/emotionally satiated with your BB when you’re 34. You just don’t. Once you’ve had a go at slurping up all of that exciting, yummy, hot guy sex, you’re going to always want it.

    This is so true. Like with the obesity epidemic. 100 years ago people ate their vegetables because real food was all they had. Now? Just try eating raw spinach after consuming nothing but refined sugars for 20+ years. Yuck! True, some people can go for a few weeks on a real-food diet, but it tastes bad and eventually they go right back to their soda pop, chocolate cake, and french fries.

    It is extraordinarily common for wives to hook up with other men on business trips — as in really quite common.

    This! As a personal anecdote: I deleted my Tinder account long ago, but I still get on Bumble. I make it a point to swipe through everybody in my area so I’m able to see new users as they come up. Want to guess where the most common location for new women to appear is? Yup, it’s the airport.

  122. Jason says:

    Went dancing last night, and early this morning :-)…to Motown / Northern Soul music…….I’m a solid soul dancer (I’m good and I know it) and in the middle of a track with a solid “mash potato beat and groove” a woman who was about 35 comes up, gets in my face, breaks my style, grabs me by the arms and wrists VERY firmly and “demands”

    “SHOW ME HOW TO DO THAT!!!!” (the dance), I break free of her grip shoot her a look of “don’t you ever touch me!” and shuffle-slide away from her and continue dancing. Guys around me dancing as well giving me a look and nod of “good for you” and couple of “bro” pat me on my backside. I threw my shades on and fell back into the music, and the dance. I paid no attention to her reaction. No other guys on the floor did either.

    Fifteeen? Twenty minutes later…I go up to the bar to get more water, and the woman who did this and her clatch of four gal-pals are sitting at a table shooting darts of seething hate at me.

    Too many women like this one, and her equally desperate friends are finding out that their demands, and attitude don’t work on working class men of merit and value aymore. They were all past their prime in looks. Women like this come to this “dance party” because Motown / Northern Soul is a GUYS scene.Guys come to this scene and dance to good music and to forget about their wage slave jobs at the car-wash, day labor, temping, food service and clerking. These women assume that they will be hit on, talked to, flirted with, and have drinks bought for them. It’s not the case, and they hate it. The few women who do get up and dance and are polite actually do get spoken to…….but for the most part about this scene…..it’s a place to just revel and forget without female approval. Most of these guys (black, white, and latin) are MGTOW and probably don’t even know it.

    Marriage and dating is quickly becoming a “upper middle-class thing” and the 80% who were left behind for the most part found other things to do. What I have noticed with many men, their “card” of pursuit when played (because most didn’t have a choice, it was the only card they had left) actually is powerful, and the female cards, the killer pile of chips, and the rest of the deck cannot beat it.

    I arrived home at 3:30am soaked in sweat…..feeling great and smirked to myself before crashing out!

  123. Anonymous Reader says:

    Novaseeker is writing about open hypergamy.

    Here is another view of that topic from 3 years ago.
    https://therationalmale.com/2014/08/07/open-hypergamy/

  124. earl says:

    Folks, this is literally happening all the time. If you don’t think so, you’re blind, really.

    You can also thank contraception, the Pill and abortion for that too. Reducing the consequence of pregnancy from casual sex encounters gives them a false sense of security they can get away with it easier.

    I’d wonder how many of these wives were on the Pill while on these trips. If it isn’t close to 100%, I’d be shocked.

  125. PokeSalad says:

    @Jeff Strand

    Indeed. But the entire thing wouldn’t work with the genders reversed. Because the men would not be able to get laid at will on the road trip, like the wives were doing.

    Welllllllllllllllllllllllllll according to Wente and Regnerus, Tinder has made every man in America a kid-in-a-candy-store Lothario! 😉

  126. Embracing Reality says:

    I’ve known so many Christian couples over the years in which the wife was adulterous, it’s ridiculous. It was the case 20 years ago that people around them were shocked when it was revealed, not anymore. Few years ago I befriended a Christian man who’s wife cheated a few years before. He decided to stay and make it work. They have children. He was a virgin when he married her, she was not. Recently she tried, online, to cheat again. He’s still sticking it out. In the course of talking to other Christian men he found several of them are like him, married to adulterers, “dealing with it”. I guess it’s a thing now.

    I’m in a relationship with a pastors daughter now, says she ‘waited’. She’s vague on the details. I’m not sure I can even believe her. I can meet and date attractive Christian women easily. Marriage? I don’t trust them, any of them. I don’t see how I can at this point or why I even should. I’m not MGTOW but I’m getting damn close.

  127. Jeff Strand says:

    Lest we forget, two words:

    Jenny Erickson.

    (Btw, I saw a few months back on social media that she just had another kid. Out of wedlock, I assume)

  128. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Embracing,

    The only logical choice is, go MGTOW or find a NAWALT.

    NAWALT’s really exist. As I said in my prior post, not only did I marry one…but I’m raising my daughters be NAWALTs. They will be in the dating market in 5 to 10 years. And if I’m doing it, others must be.

    So don’t give up hope. Marriage can be wonderful, but you have to marry a NAWALT or not al all.

  129. Thats why I wrote, the modern-day job (in the service sector) is all about hunting….these women are swallowed up into it straight from university. The higher they go through the ranks the bigger the appeal (as a career professional) the international trips paid for by the multinational, being entertained by investors (as a career boss), celebratory parties due to billiables (as top management)

    that means (Networking, Conferences, Event Gatherings, Galas, Business Trips et al) everything they simply divide the business cards and class them as either AF/BB

    Just to reference Hosea 2 10-13 (Although read the whole chapter). Thankfully God will:

    So now I will expose her lewdness
    before the eyes of her lovers;
    no one will take her out of my hands.
    11 I will stop all her celebrations:
    her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
    her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.
    12 I will ruin her vines and her fig trees,
    which she said were her pay from her lovers;
    I will make them a thicket,
    and wild animals will devour them.
    13 I will punish her for the days
    she burned incense to the Baals;
    she decked herself with rings and jewelry,
    and went after her lovers,
    but me she forgot,”
    declares the Lord.

  130. earl says:

    NAWALT’s really exist. As I said in my prior post, not only did I marry one…but I’m raising my daughters be NAWALTs.

    Hopefully they are virgins too when they get married…while the erosion of homemaking and mother skills is bad, the outright sexual immorality of women is making marriage to them a very hard sell.

  131. feministhater says:

    Went MGTOW quite awhile back and I’m not changing back. Sorry, AWALT, only some do not act on their instincts, that is the only difference. They all will rebel, they all have the ability to cheat on you and most will monkey branch when a better option comes along, especially if they are attractive. There is nothing to stop them and everything for them to gain by doing so.

    One man might get a unicorn but for every one of that man, there are ten more who either will get divorced, cheating on or have a lousy, unfulfilled marriage, some will get all the bad that they can get; and the real kicker is that few, if any, know which man they will be beforehand. There is no method to vet her. There is no protection provided by Church or state. You are left to fend for yourself in a lousy, market, filled with whores, adulterers and career sluts.

    You will get drama, you will get cucked and you will get divorced, but you will not find a women amongst them worth a damn; and certainly not one you should marry. Even the men who supposedly married a unicorn would never marry again, why should any one else. Marriage is a cuck’s bet.

  132. Lost Patrol says:

    Novaseeker is writing about open hypergamy.

    Yep. And in the new paradigm this guy will be A-OK with that. He won’t have a choice.

  133. Novaseeker says:

    In the course of talking to other Christian men he found several of them are like him, married to adulterers, “dealing with it”. I guess it’s a thing now.

    Sure.

    It’s going to be a much bigger thing moving forward, too.

    Why? Because it’s so easy for women to do it, for the same reason that it’s so much easier for women to participate in SMP than it is for men. Keep in mind, these women (the ones in the CNN article at least) are interested in having a side piece, they are looking for fun, excitement and sex on the side. It isn’t “just sex”, but the emotional excitement about it, that buzz/tingle that they are looking for. For which sex is it easier to find that? We all know the answer. And now women have massive opportunities, due to work travel, hookup apps, cell phones, anonymous private emails and so on. Desire plus opportunity plus ease of pulling it off equals massive affairs in potential.

    Men have affairs too, but it’s harder to pull off, it takes a lot more effort for the average guy to pull off an affair, unless he’s paying for it (which isn’t really an affair — it’s cheating, but it’s with hookers, which isn’t an affair). For an average guy to pull off an affair with an attractive woman isn’t easy for the same reasons it isn’t that easy for an average man to get laid with an attractive woman. But for an average woman to have an affair is very easy — it just takes an ad on a hookup site, a tinder account or what have you, and the paramours come flooding in. Maybe not “quality men”, but she’s looking for a paramour, not a husband — she’s looking for a fun guy, not a husband. The behavior parallels that of the behavior on the carousel because it has the same motivation — excitement, fulfillment, hot sex. Women generally own that space, and so going forward they will own adultery, too. The only thing that will keep men even close to pace is that men have a stronger libido on average, but remember — women aren’t just seeking sex when they do this. They are looking for the excitement, the thrill, the tingle, all of that, and not just relieving a sexual urge — they get all of that from an affair, and it’s as easy as pie for them to get it, too.

    This is going to continue to grow, no doubt, because

    1. Women are married to BBs mostly, and they miss AF, or they are dissatisfied with marriage to BB because they are not “getting their needs met” (i.e., for exciting, tingly, passionate fun).

    2. Women have access to this freely just like they have access to the carousel freely. All they have to do is step on and ride, and it’s the same with having an affair. If they have maintained their attractiveness it is as easy as pie.

    3. The culture will refuse to shame the behavior, because that would be “core misogyny” in terms of problematizing female sexual behavior in any way.

    Therefore … much more to come in this area. Perhaps even to the point where it is outright normed in the open.

  134. feministhater says:

    Therefore … much more to come in this area. Perhaps even to the point where it is outright normed in the open.

    It’s true, only cucks get married.

  135. Peasant says:

    The biggest thing that gets me from that CNN article is that the rationalization wasn’t even real rationalization. None of those women considered at any point that they were doing something “unethical” (to use awful business-speak) or morally wrong; they were justifying what they saw as behavior that might upset their spouse. At least among the affluent and liberal woman the author socializes with, we truly are “beyond good and evil”.

    Of course, it isn’t limited to them by a longshot. For quite a while, moral considerations have been replaced by practical risk-reward calculations by most of our society. When I was in college just a few years ago, I recall being shocked by my peers’ seeming incapability of thinking that any action of theirs might have been ‘bad’ as a four-year-old might say. Their thought process in their personal affairs resembles that of the Athenians in the Melian dialogue, in sharp contrast to their incessant moralization of politics.

  136. feministhater says:

    Hopefully they are virgins too when they get married…while the erosion of homemaking and mother skills is bad, the outright sexual immorality of women is making marriage to them a very hard sell.

    He would have to provide proof that they were, it it were me. Good thing it won’t be. LOL.

  137. earlthomas786 says:

    @Peasant

    This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth, And says, “I have done no wrong.” Proverbs 30:20

    Nothing new under the sun.

  138. desiderian says:

    “Folks, this is literally happening all the time. If you don’t think so, you’re blind, really.”

    It’s my understanding that it always has among the upper (and lower) classes. It’s status anxiety among the UMC that now drives it there. It’s a way for them to “feel” high class as the reality slips away.

  139. Novaseeker says:

    Yep. And in the new paradigm this guy will be A-OK with that. He won’t have a choice.

    Yes, Lost Patrol, that is what is coming next.

    First we have the groundwork being laid, like in that CNN article and the books it links to, that female infidelity is justified and actually good for marriage in that it prevents divorce and makes women more fulfilled.

    The next step, which come along gradually, is the idea that it is unfair for husbands to “burden” their wives with their irrational jealousies and making them be secret and feel guilty and so on, rather than openly supporting this because it strengthens the marriage, makes their wives happier, and is a loving thing to do. Believe me, this is what is coming next. And of course men’s infidelity won’t be looked at the same way because “that’s just animal lust, which any real man should be able to control, aren’t you a real man?!?!”, whereas female infidelity is about emotional growth, life satisfaction, and a journey of self-discovery and engagement — only a cruel, controlling beast of neanderthal husband could possibly want to keep his wife from that, if he loves her.

    That’s Phase 2, and some ways away yet. We are now in Phase 1, which is the “laying the groundwork” phase for making female infidelity not only acceptable, but laudable.

  140. Frank K says:

    It’s because, for most of them, there was nothing new to adapt to. For the majority of men, the Sexual Revolution never happened. The rules newer chanced: investment (of time, money, labour, resources) is to be traded for sexual access and the opportunity of fatherhood.

    The only thing the “revolution” did for men was to embolden Chads and make it easier for them to bed the youngest and best looking women. For average men, it made things worse, much worse, as most now face having to wife up an unrepentant slut if they ever want to get married, and who get told that her past is “in the past and is none of his business”.

  141. Novaseeker says:

    It’s my understanding that it always has among the upper (and lower) classes. It’s status anxiety among the UMC that now drives it there. It’s a way for them to “feel” high class as the reality slips away.

    It’s true that adultery has always been common, or more common than most people thought (adulterers are often quite good at hiding what they are doing). I think what is new is the openness of it. And I suppose it’s not surprising that men are mostly clueless about what is going on — after all, they couldn’t easily have an affair while on a business trip unless they were paying for it (and I’d guess a fair number of men have actually done that, so I’m not saying that’s any better), so they don’t think of their wives acting like this.

  142. RICanuck says:

    Back during the George W. Bush administration I was at a church function and there were a few young veterans sitting by themselves. Veterans usually don’t like talking about their wartime experiences with those who haven’t been there. I introduced myself as ex Canadian Army during the Ford/Carter administrations. I am not a veteran, but told some stories I heard from buddies who stayed in during the former Yugoslavia and African civil wars.
    The veterans opened up to me. I heard about the guys who had been killed, crippled, castrated, and blinded in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then the stories diverged into the suicides and attempted suicides after the return home. The common thread was adultery, cheating girlfriends, divorce, child custody, abortion of the boyfriend’s kid, or their own.
    I asked, “Is there really a downside to stoning adulteresses?.”
    There was about five seconds of silence. Then one guy said, “You know, these Islamic societies really have nothing except family and tribal honour. In a way you have to admire the sacrifices they will make to maintain that.”
    I has the impression that these young American soldiers and marines envied the honour and respect that ragged ass Muslims had due to membership in a bad ass clan or tribe as compared to the honor and respect that American servicemen receive.
    Obama and Trump have resisted and are resisting the hawk factions in both parties against putting more boots on the ground. I wonder if part of the reason is to prevent a critical mass of young American men from coming back with new ideas on how to deal with what Rollo calls the ‘Feminine Imperative”.

  143. Frank K says:

    “Recently she tried, online, to cheat again. He’s still sticking it out. In the course of talking to other Christian men he found several of them are like him, married to adulterers, “dealing with it”. I guess it’s a thing now.”

    I noticed something at church recently. I saw several clean cut young men (college aged) who were attending solo. They were definitely “betas”, what church going fathers would have recognized as husband material for their daughters in the past.

    With few exceptions the only young women I saw had been obviously dragged there by their parents. They were not dressed for church (short shorts, short T-shirts, you get the picture). It crossed my mind that all those young men, clutching their bibles were probably virgins while all those young women were probably not. And that if those fine young men married, they would likely have a wife who would cheat on them.

  144. Frank K says:

    “That’s Phase 2, and some ways away yet. We are now in Phase 1, which is the “laying the groundwork” phase for making female infidelity not only acceptable, but laudable.”

    And there is phase 3, where you should accept that your wife can choose another man to impregnate her and that you should be happy to raise (pay for) that child.

  145. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Then the stories diverged into the suicides and attempted suicides after the return home. The common thread was adultery, cheating girlfriends, divorce, child custody, abortion of the boyfriend’s kid, or their own.’

    Funny I would often see various shows highlighting vet suicides and not once was that ever mentioned. Things like PTSD, loss of finance, or couldn’t take the pain from war injuries were present but never female sexual immorality.

  146. redlight says:

    Based on my reading of divorce cases in Toronto, your wife-to-be needs to be UMC based on her regular income, no plans to be SAHM, while your income must be considerable less. This becomes a strong disincentive to frivorce.

  147. RICanuck says:

    @Earl,

    Who are you going to believe, the main stream objective media, or a veteran?

    There is such a thing as PTSD, but in many cases it’s code word for blame the man.

  148. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Who are you going to believe, the main stream objective media, or a veteran?’

    That’s my point…how the media never brings that up as a reason and now is trying to flat out promote female sexual immorality.

  149. feeriker says:

    Women don’t have to prove themselves as mothers and wives any more

    You could have ended that sentence after word number six.

  150. Casey says:

    @ Redlight

    “Based on my reading of divorce cases in Toronto, your wife-to-be needs to be UMC based on her regular income, no plans to be SAHM, while your income must be considerable less. This becomes a strong disincentive to frivorce.”

    Good game plan, but you’ll never convert to a 1st down.

    What you lay out becomes a clear disincentive for marriage……….from her standpoint.

  151. CSI says:

    That CNN article is chilling. Reading through it, you will see the excuse used is that their husbands don’t do enough housework. This is a common bluepill trope. That’s its stress from too much housework that kills wife’s libidos. Just do more housework to make your wife horny again! This is nonsense of course.

  152. Jeff Strand says:

    Just curious…a little informal poll here…

    How many of you guys would forgive your wife for cheating on you? Versus just demanding a divorce.

    I ask because when my wife and I were engaged, we did “Pre Cana”…which is premarital counseling that is a requirement to get married in the Church. The married couple who counseled us one evening gave us a written quiz to take. We each had to take it in a separate room, so we wouldn’t know what the other said. One of the questions was “If my spouse cheated on me and subsequently asked forgiveness, I would definitely forgive him/her”.

    The choices were A) I agree with this statement, B) I disagree with this statement, and C) Not sure. Well, my wife chose A, meaning she would definitely forgive me. I chose C, that I wasn’t sure what I would do.

    Our counselors were practically ecstatic with our answers! They told us we were the only couple they had ever counseled who got this question “right” – everyone else (apparently, both male and female) always chose B. Meaning these other couples were going into the marriage already determined to not ever forgive their spouse (and therefore to demand the end of the marriage) if adultery should occur.

    (BTW, this was just another confirmation for me that I had found a NAWALT. Think about it – no other bride-to-be was willing to even consider forgiveness for adultery, but my fiancé automatically defaulted to that position. In her mind, it was “OF COURSE I’d forgive him, what a silly question!”)

    So just wondering how some of you guys would answer that question, and how your wives would have answered it.

  153. feministhater says:

    The pews are not filled with female virgins, only whores who need a husband. Never forget it. Churches are now the searching grounds for unrepentant whores. They spend their twenties rebelling against God, whoring themselves out to stick it to both their Earthly and Heavenly Fathers, only to come back once their eggs dry up and no man worth his salt wants to fuck her. Then and only then do women ‘find’ God. They truly mean ‘husband’ though. Then they become born again virgins and expect you to wife them up. You will get no sex, no peace and no helpmeet but you damn well better marry them as you have no other options. There are no other options, it’s MGTOW or marry that slut. Don’t think you can find that one girl, they just don’t exist in any proportion that would allow an average man like you or me to obtain one.

    Why do you even care what the article states? It’s useless, the clock can never be turned back and even if it could, you do realized that women can’t love an average or below average man, they can only love his money and resources. Why would you want to live that lie anyway. It’s a useless fantasy once you know the truth. The article displays pure truth.

    Of course, there are those who will tell you otherwise, saying unicorns exist and they found one. Yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, they know as well as I do that it all depends on her feeling a certain way and once that feeling disappears, so does the ‘love and affection’. Love is an illusion and causes far more damage in your life than it will cause happiness. Like any drug, the short term high only causes longer term pain down the path.

  154. feministhater says:

    Oh sure, I would forgive her, after I’d divorced her and sent her packing. I will not be a cuck. Once a whore, always a whore. Of course churchian cucks think it good for cheating spouses to forgive and forget, they’re cucks.

  155. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    Jason says: “Went dancing last night, and early this morning :-)…to Motown / Northern Soul music…….I’m a solid soul dancer (I’m good and I know it) and in the middle of a track with a solid “mash potato beat and groove” a woman who was about 35 comes up, gets in my face, breaks my style, grabs me by the arms and wrists VERY firmly and “demands” “SHOW ME HOW TO DO THAT!!!!”

    Very cool to find a fellow Northern Soul fan here, Who’d have thought one would be in these parts? My only reply to this is that it reminded me of a great, obscure soul song by the Monitors called “Show Me You Can Dance.” Ask the DJ to play that — it’s totally “cracking” as you Brits might say.

  156. feministhater says:

    Would Jeff forgive and raise the bastard child from such a union? I guess he would. That’s just another death nail in the coffin of marriage. The purpose is to have a secure union in which you’re assured your children are yours. Cheating is the biggest defilement of this when it comes to women cheating on men. The cheating of a man in the marriage causes no maternal fraud unto the wife, she is always assured every child she bears is hers. Whilst the man is not. A cheating wife is worth less than dog shit. Why would you continue such a union?

  157. Jeff Strand says:

    @ CSI: “Just do more housework to make your wife horny again!”

    Yep, this poor schlub has made a blogging career out of that notion. Here is his famous article, “She Left Me Because I Left Dirty Dishes By the Sink”:

    https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/

    (Notice – over 4,000 comments! Most from women who stroke his ego by telling him how he “gets it” now, and what a “great husband” he would make…now that he’s seen the error of his ways)

    In reality, he was a hard working Beta drone…supporting his family of 3. His wife blindsided him by hitting him with divorce papers, and taking their little boy with her. By his own admission, she was almost immediately in the arms of some Chad…while he was an emotional wreck, crying himself to sleep every night and contemplating suicide.

    This cuck takes a perverse pleasure in how he’s learned to accept his place, and even be friendly to his wife’s new stud, whom he runs into regularly at his kid’s sports events. Thanks to his whore of an ex, her stud spends more time with the kid than his actual father does!

    And this beta has convinced himself she didn’t leave him for being a pathetic wussbag who wasn’t f@cking her right…nope, she really left him because he wasn’t “sensitive enough” to be in touch with his feminine side, and to do the dishes more. And he gets the ego boost of all these women commenters telling him what a king among men he is…if only all men were like him!

    (I tried to redpill him, and got banned for my efforts)

    Revolting.

  158. Jeff Strand says:

    @ feminist hater,

    To answer your question. Given how my NAWALT wife has proven herself to me over almost 2 decades, I would forgive her for ANYTHING. With only a single exception – that she were to ever deliberately harm our children in a significant way.

    That alone, I would not forgive her for. I told her this, and her answer was “Well, I don’t blame you”.

    So for what it’s worth.

  159. feministhater says:

    So yes, you’re willing to be a cuck.

    At what point, Jeff, at what point do you decide ‘enough is enough’? Obviously not the first time she cheats but maybe the second? No, the third, no, perhaps the fourth? You would let her fuck how many men before you chose the obviously choice of divorcing a piece of dog shit who calls herself a wife? She is not a wife once she cheats. She has destroyed the union by her own hand. The divorce is merely the conclusion, like the creation of a death certificate. The death has already happened.

    Why would any man willingly become a cuck to a whore? And you say you tried to ‘redpill’ some other man on another blog….. really?

  160. earlthomas786 says:

    “If my spouse cheated on me and subsequently asked forgiveness, I would definitely forgive him/her”

    @fhater…at first I’d have your mindset…but reading the question, it’s the cheating spouse who is asking for forgiveness. There’s at least the thought they are seeking repentence for what they’ve done and understand they messed up big time. That’s what confessing sin to seek God’s mercy is all about. What most cheating articles talk about is how the spouse doesn’t even realize they are doing something wrong much less seeking forgiveness about it. They even think they are entitled to it….talk about having hardcore pride on top of being an adulterous whore.

    It’s a question I’d probably go C as well. I’d like to think I would forgive, but I doubt the marriage would survive. That’s a huge severing of trust.

  161. Frank K says:

    I once broke up with a gf who was threatening to leave me for another guy who was showing interest in her unless we started talking about marriage. For the record, I wasn’t sleeping with her. My response was “don’t let the door hit you on the way out”. She wasn’t expecting that, since I was a respectful “nice guy”. She then turned on the water works, said she was sorry and didn’t mean it.

    Too late, I told her, you showed your true colors. I had a bad feeling about her, she presented herself as “an old fashioned girl”. After the break up I learned through the grapevine that she wasn’t, and some friends told me that they were on the verge of warning me about her and her past.

    While her threat technically wasn’t adultery it was a huge red flag. And no, it wasn’t something I would forgive, in the sense of taking her back, and that is what that pre Cana question was really asking, would you take your spouse back?

    I don’t feel any grudge against her now, so I guess I have forgiven her in the sense that I don’t expect some sort of compensation for what she did. I simply decided that there was nothing left to pursue with her and moved on. I would feel the same way about a cheating wife.

    I think that women do not truly understand how devastating infidelity is for a man, and I think it has to do with as others have already said here, that you can’t cuck a woman.

  162. W4K1 says:

    @TheLdnQuaestor

    According to that website, they have 45,000 users for the “invisible boyfriend”. At $25 a month each, that’s a nice chunk of change for the enterprising guy who wrote the silly app. That dude’s a genius, I’d have never thought of capitalizing on the aging sluts that way.

  163. Robert What? says:

    I know a good number of young women – by one or two degrees of separation – from their early twenties to their mid thirties. Of the ones in their early to mid twenties none want marriage or even a relationship.

  164. Frank K says:

    It’s a question I’d probably go C as well. I’d like to think I would forgive, but I doubt the marriage would survive. That’s a huge severing of trust.

    I can’t help but feel that option C is just way of admitting that I wouldn’t forgive her, as in take her back.

    FWIW, I have a friend who did forgive his wife. They went to counseling for months … until he found out that she hadn’t stopped cheating on him. What really hit home for me on that one is that his wife was not attractive at all, maybe a 4 on a good day, yet there was no shortage of guys sniffing around her. She was cheating with men she worked with (she was an executive). After strike two he ended it and became very depressed. After the divorce he dated again for a while, until he was done with women, and has remained a bachelor to this day. She actually married one of her office Lotharios and is still with him. This happened about 20 years ago.

    My friend was a techie, well paid, but once his wife started climbing the management ladder she left him in the dust financially, and that was when she started cheating.

  165. earlthomas786 says:

    I don’t feel any grudge against her now, so I guess I have forgiven her in the sense that I don’t expect some sort of compensation for what she did. I simply decided that there was nothing left to pursue with her and moved on. I would feel the same way about a cheating wife.

    That would be a better explaination of my mindset as well. Once my last gf pulled the ‘I don’t have a connection with you anymore’ reason…I said ‘Ok’ and left because she showed her true colors. I forgave her in the sense I don’t wish any ill will upon her, but there’s nothing to pursue anymore.

  166. Jason says:

    Days of Broken Arrow:

    I’m a “Yank” and discovered Northern Soul as a shy and introverted teenager…..the rare times my family would drive to the “big city” (that was Albany, New York) and I would spend money on 45rpms on Motown and obscure soul acts in EARL Records store (RIP). In those days (late 1980’s), you could pick up those 45rpms for 10 cents each. My collection is really face and fab. The Beatles are my fav group. Period. However, for dancing?????………Motown, soul, northern soul, the stax-chess catalog from the end of the 1950’s until the oil embargo in 1974 (that embargo changed everything IMHO) is “it” for me.

    When I moved to San Francisco in 1996, I discovered an ‘english themed’ pub called “Mad Dog In The Fog” and the ‘welsh’ pub “Dylans” they both had northern soul nights that were not “big” like in the UK, but busy and lots of dancing! There is a niche scene in the USA for it.

    I live in Fresno, California now and the “Motown / Soul Night” we have at a small club here is mobbed. Northern Soul is pretty big in Fresno, and the “working class” vibe of this last big, real “blue collar” city in California is personally why I think it’s pretty big. Also, few women show up to ruin it………It’s a “guys” scene, and like I said in my above post……it’s a way to shake off the dead end job, and the tension of living in this hot, angry, and hard-working city.

    The scene is supportive and people come to dance and just forget about the reality that hits them when they get up in the morning.

    KTF!!!!

  167. earlthomas786 says:

    @Frank…

    Well the question that was presented was just about forgiveness. There wasn’t any part of it (that we know of) that mentioned or suggested ‘would you reconcile’?

    Our priest explained forgiveness pretty well during a homily. He said that forgiveness doesn’t necessarily mean reconcillation. We should forgive those who sin against us…that doesn’t mean the relationship has to be restored. I suppose a lot of the reconcillation process is more on the cheating spouse’s subsequent actions.

  168. feministhater says:

    It this case though, it would seem that Jeff drew the conclusion that divorce equals non-forgiveness thus the opposite would be forgiveness and reconciliation.

    Our counselors were practically ecstatic with our answers! They told us we were the only couple they had ever counseled who got this question “right” – everyone else (apparently, both male and female) always chose B. Meaning these other couples were going into the marriage already determined to not ever forgive their spouse (and therefore to demand the end of the marriage) if adultery should occur.

    It never suggested either that one can forgive but then end the marriage anyway. If I were married, I have no qualms in saying that if wifey ever cheated, she would be out the door quicker than she could ask for forgiveness. She can ask for it later and I would grant her that, once she had taken full responsibility for her act of depravity and let me off the hook financially by granting the divorce, no alimony and no child support. Then I would forgive her but would be leaving her high and dry. She can go and get support from her lover at that point.

    I have no sympathy anymore, not for whores.

  169. Frank K says:

    Well the question that was presented was just about forgiveness. There wasn’t any part of it (that we know of) that mentioned or suggested ‘would you reconcile’?

    Perhaps, but it does seem to me that at least in the vernacular, that to “forgive” a cheating spouse implies reconciliation. Granted, in a Pre Cana to forgive might mean what you said, simply forgiveness.

  170. Novaseeker says:

    FWIW, I have a friend who did forgive his wife. They went to counseling for months … until he found out that she hadn’t stopped cheating on him.

    Pretty much what happened in my marriage as well in that respect (the other details were different). I did forgive her, but it didn’t make her stop. Nope.

  171. earlthomas786 says:

    I just went off the question presented.

    Sounded more like the counselor implied reconcillation.

    Hence perhaps why his ‘C’ statement revealed more about what the counselor thought what forgiving a cheating spouse meant.

  172. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Jeff Strand,

    Thanks for the encouragement to keep looking for NAWALT, thanks for trying but I’m not very optimistic. I guess I’ll keep trying. . .

    Regarding the “poll”. First let me ask a rhetorical question:

    Does a woman have a hymen? Does a Man?

    I’m a NAMALT. Sure, we can all forgive but if a wife cheated on me that bitch is gone! I don’t care what it costs. If I spent my youth sampling sluts and then had the good fortune to marry a virgin or low N it might be different, maybe.

    @ Novaseeker, Frank K, Feministhater, you are skeptics, cynics, pessimists. And you’re right.

  173. Oleaginous Outrager says:

    your income must be considerable less

    I don’t remember the exact legal term, but the popular practice is to make a “calculation” of what you would earn (working 90+ hours a week) and basing spousal and child “support” on that make-believe figure, and jail time if you can’t cover it, you “deadbeat dad”!

  174. Jeff Strand says:

    @ feminist hater: “So yes, you’re willing to be a cuck.”

    You’re assuming she’s the one who cheated. Truth be told, it was me. Within just months of getting married, my ex-fiancé reached out to me. I ended up visiting her at her city while I was on a busness trip. The agreement was she would make me a home-cooked meal, and would respect my married status. Well, you can guess that didn’t happen. I ended up spending the weekend at her place, f@cked her like crazy all weekend, then left (which pissed her off pretty bad. Tough).

    My wife found out. I know you all say she should have bailed on me, ended the marriage (that was only a couple months old), and so on. But you know what? She forgave me entirely, and then proceeded to tell me she would never interrogate me about what I do on my business trips because she knows I will always come home to her. And anything beyond that is between my conscience and God to judge. So I went to Confession, did my penance, and received absolution for the adultery, and proceeded to permanently cut all contact with my ex-fiancé.

    The result of my wife forgiving me has been almost 20 years of a great marriage and two wonderful kids. And by “forgiving” I mean “forgive AND forget”. She has never brought it up again in all these years (nor have I), held any resentment over it, thrown it back in my face, or anything like that. It’s truly like it never happened. Like I was given a mulligan.

    I have slipped up a few times since then, but I always go to Confession, pray for the intercession of St. Mary of Egypt (patron saint for those who struggle with sins of the flesh), and try to be stronger in the future. My wife didn’t find out about those other times, but I have no fear of her reaction if she ever did – she knows how much I love and treasure her, and that’s enough for her. Besides, I think she expects that since she married an attractive, high status Alpha like me….it’s to be expected there may be other women from time to time. But she knows she’s the only one who’s finger I put a wedding ring on.

    Oh and let me add, when I have thrown out my situation to male friends (as a “hypothetical” of course) and asked if their wife would just basically give them a mulligan, they all answer “Are you kidding, she’d cut my balls off!” or “She’d run right to the divorce lawyer!”. So when I say I married a NAWALT, you can see that I am being truthful and not exaggerating – she really is that unicorn. They really are out there. Don’t discourage young men from seeking them out and wifing them up.

    So would I forgive my wife (and yes Earl, I also mean reconcile) if she cheated? You’re damned right I would. In a heartbeat. No one and nothing comes between us. If that makes me a cuck, so be it.

  175. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jim Christian: Chicks give a crap about their fertility. Maybe the clock ticks on them starting in their thirties, but they don’t care to think of it, indeed do all they can to kill it.

    Women assume that science will extend their fertility well into their 40s.

    Game of Thrones actress Lena Headey had her second baby at 41. Her first baby at 36. Different fathers for each baby. Headey is divorced from the first baby’s father, and living (but not married to) the second baby’s father.

    Today, ordinary women think that they too can live the celebrity lifestyle. That they can be Strong, Independent, Millionaire Single Moms, with nannies to care for the children, while they travel the world and bask in male acclaim.

  176. Anonymous Reader says:

    Doesn’t “forgiveness” at least imply wiping the bad behavior off the slate, and therefore a first step to reconciliation? If true, then how does one forgive someone who refuses to admit to the bad behavior, or rationalizes it away via “I was angry / tired / drunk / something”?

  177. earlthomas786 says:

    @ Jeff…

    You sought forgiveness, she reconciled.

    That doesn’t mean every marriage ends up that way. Which is why adultery is a huge risk to take in a marriage.

    Besides I think a woman has more to loose by being unfaithful in a marriage than a man does. That’s even with all the unfair advantages the court system gives her.

  178. Jeff Strand says:

    @ RPL: “Today, ordinary women think that they too can live the celebrity lifestyle. That they can be Strong, Independent, Millionaire Single Moms, with nannies to care for the children, while they travel the world and bask in male acclaim.”

    This was brought to heights of absurdity back almost 20 years ago on the show “Gilmore Girls”. The main character, Lorelei, got knocked up at 16. She dropped out of school, gave birth to her daughter Rory, and embarked on life as a teenage single mom by getting a job as a maid at a swanky hotel.

    Now in the real world, we all know where that leads. But in (((Hollywood))) it’s a bit different. Fast forward 15 years. Not only does Lorelei now run the hotel, she actually OWNS it. And though her parents are wealthy, we’re told she did it all on her own. Worked her way up from maid to owning the place. Sure. Happens all the time, right?

    And how did she do as a mom? Neglect the hell out of her daughter while she focused on such amazing career success? Au contraire! Of course, a child is better off with an empowered single mother, than with some schlub of a father in the home! So naturally Rory turned out to be a very pretty, attractive, super-smart, well spoken, feminist, cool and trendy gal who ends up getting a scholarship to Yale! Perfect, right? Hey, who needs a husband or father around anyway!

    Now I know you’re thinking you’d have to be braindead to take any of this seriously. But chicks actually do! They see this stuff and think it happens that way it real life. Just like they think Angelina Jolie can beat the crap out of six Green Berets.

    Truly laughable.

  179. Gunner Q says:

    Jeff Strand @ 3:15 pm:
    “Just curious…a little informal poll here…
    How many of you guys would forgive your wife for cheating on you?”

    Well, if she…

    *reads Jeff’s post @ 5:29pm*

    WTF, Jeff.

  180. fakeemail says:

    An oldie, but goodie:

    Hello. Is there an introduction board for this website? My name is Michael. I’ve been reading this website for 3 days. I’m shocked to see everything I’ve experiencing written in such a perfectly stated way. Never before have I seen a blog/media outlet so perfectly written. The writer is surely a genius. I’m amazed and relived to see so many responses. It means I’m not alone.

    I’m 32 years old and have never been married. Unfortunately (or fortunately I’m not sure which anymore at this point) I have no kids. I am single and alone and not dating anyone. I live in Los Angeles. My income was $120,000.00 (net earnings after creative deductions and business taxes) in 2011. Income is projected to be $170,000.00 (net earnings after business taxes) in 2012. I’m exactly the kinds of “independent man” women claim they want. I drive a luxury car with an amazing apartment in Los Angeles directly on the beach. It’s quite a panty moistener and costs me $6,000.00 per month. I work from home because an office would cost at least another $2,000.00 month. I keep in great shape. Gym 3-4 a week + running + organic diet (I spend $700-$900.00 a month on organic foods and supplements) I was raised in a Christian “7th Heaven” (old TV show) type household. We always went to church. Strong hard working father figure was always present for me and my siblings. I went to private school, university, law school, and then started my own practice at 28 years old.

    My parents met and married in college. They have been married for 39 years. And it hurts me to the core to be 32 and unmarried. Alone. Without a loving wife. I feel pain from it every single day. It’s like a sharp invisible dagger constantly stabbing at me. But perhaps I’m part of the problem listed in the graphs above. Let me explain why:

    I went to the same college my parents met and married at. I was hoping to meet marry and settle down. Instead I was met with hundreds young college aged women who were NOT interested in marriage. They were interested in: 1) Partying 2) Having sex. College was 24/7 fuck fest. At first I was able to begrudgingly “socialize” in this element. What do I mean by “this element” within this context? College: Extreme social promiscuity, cheating, drama, drugs, and parties. I was an observer but NEVER a direct participant because my heart would not let me. This eventually caused me to stick out as a third wheel observer on campus. Someone who was always “not mixing” or “participating”. As a result I never enjoyed the benefits. I rarely dated. Instead I was sneered at. Cute girls flicked their fingers at me. I was used by women as a person to tell their problems to. I was passed over. I was seen as “weak “lame” and “boring”. I was ignored in the hallways, library, classes, by these women. And it didn’t help I was cash strapped broke working a minimum wage job and eating Raman noodles..

    The vast majority of these young hot girls vigorously pursued college life sex like you would not believe. They had sex with a large variety of guys. What I personally call “lily padding”. These girls did anything and anyone in the name of “fun” (fun=parties, fun= sex with new people, fun= drugs, fun= raves, fun = frat party etc.

    It hurt me to watch these girls go out of their way to pursue and spread their legs for complete losers. COMPLETE LOSERS. I’m talking: Hi I work in a carnival part time, I’m covered in tattoos, I have no job, I failed my minimum wage drug test and I’m in a band. These guys were losers. Some did not even go to the college! They would hop a bus stay with friends and get laid THAT NIGHT.

    Many nights I could not sleep because of the girls getting fucked hard… 1,2,3,4 dorms down. The dorms were old military barracks from the 1940’s with vents through the ceilings. It was very loud. All the time. I remember how much it hurt to be rejected by one girl in particular I had my open hopeless romantic heart set on… We had allot in common. I pursued her like a complete gentlemen – and was eventually turned down. That same weekend after getting turned down I got to hear her getting fucked hard and loud in the room next door. The guy who lived there was a super scraggly unattractive heavy drug user covered in tattoos majoring in “music studies”. This girl was young hot thin beautiful in her physical prime. I never said anything. But I felt so hurt she turned me down for casual sex with a guy like that.
    This guy was very open about his exploits with her and told me not to worry because practically every guy he knew fucked her. As the years passed the same thing happened again and again, and again and again, in various ways with all kinds of unrelated girls. What I mean is: I was looking for a LTR leading to marriage. I would meet trade numbers talk and “feel” a girl was a good person. Then she would do other guys. Or I would find out things like this. When this kind of thing happens to me over and over all through my life….it hurts me and makes me doubt senses. What is wrong with me that my heart is telling me she is a good person when she is clearly not?

    As time went on I was labeled “husband material” by the girls on my campus. This phrase continued to plague me into my late 20’s. This label resulted in ZERO DATES all through college. I wasn’t “down with it”. I wasn’t “participating” etc (sex, drugs, parties, etc.) My heart wasn’t into it. So I wasn’t entitled to any of the benefits (having sex with young attractive girls in their prime etc.). However party guys, flash in a pan athletes, loser guys in bands, wanna be DJ’s and self-professed “club promoters” – were ALWAYS getting these girls at their youngest hottest physical prime. Basically the more of a loser the guy was… the more these women would have sex with them. Hot sorority girls flocked to Football players like a butterfly’s on a beast. It didn’t even matter if the guy was black. College athletes did not even TRY to get laid.

    One night I had enough. I confronted a room of 8-10 gorgeous white girls. These girls were 18-24 years old. I asked them if they planned to get married. All seemed to say more or less – YES. I asked what their future husband would think about their behavior. I was immediately met with hostility. I was told the future husband would “never know” and “it’s none of his business”. The girls said they knew exactly what they were doing and were planning to “have their fun” (fun= partying, fun=sex, fun=going on spring break etc.) and would “settle down later”. I asked: when are you planning to settle down? They said: “It depends” and “probably around 27, 28” or “maybe sooner it depends”. I really put the girls on the spot. During our exchange they saw I was upset. They told me I should be happy because “nice guys finish first in the end”. I told them you cannot have your cake and eat it to. Then I was told by Kaylene (a young thin super sexy blonde with curves in all the right places (who BTW refused to date me even though we were friends and according to her roommate had sex with almost 30 guys in one semester ) she told me “Michael let me tell you something: not only am I going to have my cake eat it and eat it too. I’m going to have it with ice cream and sprinkles”. All of the girls laughed and smiled in agreement.

    I thought things would change after college. They didn’t.

    Now at 32 and successful these women are hitting me. In my mind these are the same women who rejected me. I’m not interested. The Bible says something to the effect of “don’t forsake the wife of your youth” or something like “remember your young wife”? Something like that. How am I supposed to remember something I never had? I have no history with these women. Ticking ovaries are scandalous. They will lie and say anything to get what they want. Which is: BABIES AND A LOVING HUSBAND TO PAY THEIR BILLS. Yet these women did not even give a few good years of their youth!

    As a man I am very visual. God made me this way. I cannot help finding a physically beautiful woman attractive. Why did these women not at least give me a few years of their youth so I would have time to fall in love with them and permanently burn their image in my mind’s eye? I need something to remember when we are 50 and married. Yet she spent her 20’s parceling herself out to guys who gave her nothing and offers nothing to the guy who gives her everything. I’m expected to commit hard earned resources to raising children with what is ultimately a suspect woman whose history I know nothing about. A 30+ unmarried women has very high chance of having a questionable past and baggage. I believe the more men a woman has been with the less likely she is to be emotionally committed each subsequent one. When you have handed out little pieces of your heart over years to dozens of different men what is left for the husband you proclaim to truly love? What value do the words “I love you” mean when she has stared into the eyes of 10-100+ different men and said the same thing?

    At 30+ women’s physical appearance has nowhere to go but DOWN. Is this what women mean by “saving the best for last”? Marrying at 30+? How can women spend trillions of dollars a year on beauty products yet at the same time claim a women’s age “shouldn’t be important” to a man? And what about children? Did they ever think their husbands might want to have children? What’s more likely to naturally produce a quicker pregnancy and healthy offspring? A fertile 24 year old in her physical prime… or a 35 year old aging womb? What if I want multiple children? At 30+ a women can easily before infertile after her first pregnancy.
    As a result of everything I’ve seen and experienced in my life I would like to make an announcement to all the desperate 30+ year old women out there: I would rather suffocate and die then spend my hard earned income, love, trust, and substance on you. Your entitled, ageing, feminist, jaded, baggage laden and brainwashed. And if I cannot marry a women in her 20’s I REFUSE TO EVER GET MARRIED. Given my high income this should not be a problem. However I’m concerned at some point I will have to start looking overseas (Ukraine, Russia, Eastern Europe etc.). I’m not going to marry one of these 30+ ageing entitled females who clearly have an agenda of their own. I intend to get married once. Marriage is meant to be forever. I will not be a starter husband for one of these used up women. I can’t tell you the number of men I’ve known who married late and were rewarded by losing everything they spent their lives building…

    The way I see it I’ve been given the following choices:

    1) Marry a 30+ women.
    2) Marry a women in her twenties
    3) Be single and enjoy my money.

  181. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    That feminist husband’s name is Kibblesmith? That reminds me of Kibbles & Bits dog food. They put out lots of cute commercials.

  182. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Earl: “You sought forgiveness, she reconciled. That doesn’t mean every marriage ends up that way. Which is why adultery is a huge risk to take in a marriage.”

    Of course each marriage is different. And of course adultery is a huge risk, I don’t know anybody who thinks it’s a GOOD thing.

    But my point is that FeministHater and others were advocating entering a marriage with your mind already made up – if my spouse cheats, I end the marriage. Period. They are saying to make it an unalterable rule even going into the marriage in the first place. So if and when it happens, the circumstances don’t matter – the automatic decision to divorce is already preordained and must follow. Like the Schlieeffen Plan had been set up by the German General Staff in 1914 to automatically happen in case of war. There is no decision to make.

    I’m saying I think that’s a grave error, to enter a marriage with that mindset. And that’s what our couples counselors were trying to convey. And think about this – wouldn’t my wife have also been screwing HERSELF if she had reacted that way? I’ve given her a beautiful life over the years and she is very happy in her current life and marriage. Would she have been better off to have flushed that all down the toilet, rather than forgive?

    So I wouldn’t let the constant cry of “Cuck!”, which seems to be all we hear on the manisphere anymore, sway a person into ruling out forgiveness in the case of adultery. And of course, in some cases it may not be possible to forgive and reconcile. But if you rule it out as even a POSSIBLE option when entering a marriage, IMHO you have no business getting married.

    Just my 2 cents.

  183. Jeff Strand says:

    @ GunnerQ: “WTF, Jeff?”

    Uhhhh…could you be a little more specific?
    😉

  184. feministhater says:

    Now I know you’re thinking you’d have to be braindead to take any of this seriously. But chicks actually do! They see this stuff and think it happens that way it real life. Just like they think Angelina Jolie can beat the crap out of six Green Berets.

    Okay, now transpose this line of thought to your reasoning based on modern marriage and try to square the circle that allows you to believe there are any unicorns out there that truly ‘get it’ and don’t take the feminist churchian talking points to heart in some way or another?

    Deception of women is play school for those who run government, the welfare state and the church. For those who control the legislation and the universities, the media, the entertainment ventures, the adverts that tell women all they need to own and how to be and live; there is nothing easier than selling women a bill of goods that teaches them to deny reality and replace it with delusions of grandeur so patently absurd you jaw is left on the floor, but yet there it is, in plain sight and you will get in real trouble for pointing out the absurdity of it all.

    As a man, everything is geared to be against you in a marriage setting. It has been designed exactly in this manner and women have no issue with it. Not one single women really does for they believe they are so wanted by men that they can put any obstacle in a man’s way and he will push to overcome it; and if he doesn’t… well, he’s just a loser anyway.

    Just go and state anything we say here on some youtube video from Lauren Southern, Roaming Mixed Asian Lady, Bratany Pettimoan and any other of the vacuous conservative bimbos out there. You won’t get a response from them, obviously, however, what you will get are countless replies calling you all sorts of names in the book, looking to shame you and not one of them will ever deal with the overwhelmingly bad deal of marriage for men, nor the problem of divorce or the problem of cuckoldry. You can be as nice and diplomatic in your comment as you can be but the response will be the same. The reason why is simple. It’s the same reason why you would reconcile with a vapid whore. And that reason is that you cannot hold women to account for their own actions.

    I’m way beyond that point of even debating whether to take back a repentant cheating harlot, my mind cannot fathom not holding women to account for all their sins. Thus, if she cheats, there’s the door, don’t come back and don’t ever call me again. Simple. She’s forgiven though so at least she can get right with the Lord, even though she really doesn’t believe in him anyway.

    What feminism has wrought is no longer a joke. The destruction has taken its toll but the truth that has been unleashed by feminism is a wonder to behold. All laid bare, the truth, women’s true nature hidden for so long and now in plain view. Beautiful that it has been revealed but still frightening and dangerous to behold and best avoided if you want to get through this life with some semblance of peace. Unicorns don’t exist. The average man best get used to that and deal with it.

  185. earlthomas786 says:

    Welcome Michael. Sounds like from your experience you got a healthy dose of the red pill about modern women before coming into these parts.

    If a woman was ever that flippant with me that she was going to have her sexual immorality and husband too (I bet the ice cream & sprinkles were the side piece she planned once she got married)…I’d be less than motivated to marry them once they came around too.

  186. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Novaseeker: Another confessed to seeing affairs as being the only way to hold marriage together, or that when she was having affairs she was nicer to her BB and not a “bitch” (okay when women use the word to describe themselves I guess).

    Some women now say, and spell it, as beeatch: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beeatch

    This is a ghetto black way of pronouncing “bitch” and is thus consider more hip and cool.

    I read one white TV actress’s (multiple divorces and children by different man) Twitter feed, where she wrote, Hey my beeatches!. This actress is nearing 50. I think she says beeatch because she thinks it makes her sound hip and cool, i.e. young.

    It’s as if she’s thinking, Hey, I’m not your typical 50ish actress — I’m cool. I’m down with the sistas. Hello my beeatches!

  187. feministhater says:

    But my point is that FeministHater and others were advocating entering a marriage with your mind already made up – if my spouse cheats, I end the marriage. Period.

    Actually, it makes me a more honest and upfront individual. Any spouse I marry knows exactly what the consequences for cheating are. If she chooses to cheat, it’s on her. She’s out, thus when she makes the decision to cheat, she has already left the marriage by her own choice. She has no excuse and I’m just the one filling out the paperwork.

    Why, oh why would you want to remain with a cheating harlot?

  188. Pingback: Apex Fallacy Revisited | Spawny's Space

  189. Tim says:

    Substantial structures on Earth built by women: 0
    Substantial structures on Earth built by men: ALL
    Wars women fought in, died in & won for women’s rights: 0
    Wars men fought in, died in & won for men’s & women’s rights: ALL

    There’s no such thing as a strong, powerful, independent, liberated woman. There are only feminists who culturally appropriate all the stunning achievements of men.

    Sure, women make the babies. But so do chipmunks. It’s the design of their motors. It’s their gift.

  190. Jeff Strand says:

    @ FeministHater: “Thus, if she cheats, there’s the door, don’t come back and don’t ever call me again.”

    Ok, that’s your call. I hope it works out for you.

  191. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jeff Strand: NAWALT’s really exist.

    As I understand “manosphere theory,” NAWALT’s do not exist. ALL woman are like that, in the sense that every woman has an inner drive toward hypergamy, deceit, and unfaithfulness. Every woman has an inner demon, pushing her toward sin.

    It is possible for some women to fight their inner demons, and live moral lives. And it’s easier for these women to live morally if they are raised properly, and live in a society reinforcing their fight against personal sin.

    But all woman are like that, especially after The Fall.

    Of course, men too have their inner demons, though these differ from women’s.

  192. feministhater says:

    That comment from Michael is an old one Earl. Still, it stated everything one ever needed to know about what goes on in ‘college’ these days. However, we still get the lone ranger who comes in here and tells us that sending daughters to uni or college is the right thing to do because you never know if her future husband will be good enough…. she might need to divorce him and drain him dry and then who is going to take care of her… she just might need a degree and job to take care of herself of course. That this makes her unfit for marriage, well, who cares. That’s how we roll in this modern utopia of an experiment.. yay!

  193. feministhater says:

    Ok, that’s your call. I hope it works out for you.

    Cool bro, I hope being a ‘cuck in waiting’ works out for you too.

  194. earlthomas786 says:

    Still, it stated everything one ever needed to know about what goes on in ‘college’ these days.

    That story was basically similar to my college experience in the early 2000s. Didn’t partake that scene because I made the mistake of going there to get an education and I had somewhat stronger morals (although I will admit to a few drunken close calls). Heck I was dorm security and the numbers of women bringing in a different man almost every night and hearing the grunting as I passed by dorm rooms was eye opening. The relative ease they’d invite either loser men or even dangerous men they barely knew without a care in the world. I went on a few dates, but none interested me to stick with it.

    Daddy’s princess is often getting drunk, doing drugs, and screwing many different men there as her ‘college education’. But hey at least the father can sleep at night that she’ll have that degree to have a job to back up on if her husband divorces her.

  195. Gunner Q says:

    “Uhhhh…could you be a little more specific?”

    You didn’t marry a NAWALT. She married an Apex Alpha. All of our marital discussions are completely moot for the Trust Fund Chad Thundercocks of men.

    Women are attracted to male infidelity. Marriages can survive that much more easily than female infidelity. Nobody here would forgive a wife that promiscuous.

  196. Frank K says:

    I have slipped up a few times since then

    Slipped?

    One slips on ice or banana peels, the notion being that it’s an accident. Cheating is not an accident, one choses to cheat, plus being a man, unless you’re Brad Pitt’s long lost twin brother, you have to approach the woman and talk her into it. And even if you won the genetic lottery and women approach you, you just say no. It’s not that hard.

    By “slipped up few times since then” are you saying that you still cheat on her? If yes, then I add my voice to GunnerQ’s. And your wife should be canonized as a Saint.

    Unless, of course, you are just trolling us.

  197. feministhater says:

    I have slipped up a few times since then, but I always go to Confession, pray for the intercession of St. Mary of Egypt (patron saint for those who struggle with sins of the flesh), and try to be stronger in the future. My wife didn’t find out about those other times, but I have no fear of her reaction if she ever did – she knows how much I love and treasure her, and that’s enough for her. Besides, I think she expects that since she married an attractive, high status Alpha like me….it’s to be expected there may be other women from time to time. But she knows she’s the only one who’s finger I put a wedding ring on.

    Okay, yeah, you don’t really take marriage as seriously as you claim. You supposedly have a unicorn but then cheat on her on the side and brag about your ‘alphatude’. Cool bro, but keep your shit to yourself, it stinks.

  198. Tim says:

    Alimony, asset division & child support. The building of all nations. The fighting of all wars on behalf of women & the state. Title IX & Affirmative Action. All forced wealth & power transfer from men to women & the state. So what does it all mean? The mass oppression of men, not women, by women & the state, for women’s and the state’s culturally appropriate’n pleasure (the actual patriarchy). In short, gynocentrically inclined socialism. Even shorter: Men gettin screwed. Shortest: Man Tax.

  199. feministhater says:

    By “slipped up few times since then” are you saying that you still cheat on her? If yes, then I add my voice to GunnerQ’s. And your wife should be canonized as a Saint.

    Why? In her mind she married her Christian Grey, she knew exactly what she would be getting. If he’s as ‘alpha’ as he claims, she’s just the status wife and she’s okay with that.

    Jeff’s marriage is nothing to look to for guidance. As always, most of the men who come here saying they’ve found the NWALT are either outright lying, alpha enough to keep their wife in marriage for the time being or men who cheat or use dread game to keep their wife’s interest tickled.

    This does not bode well for Christian marriages.

  200. earlthomas786 says:

    And think about this – wouldn’t my wife have also been screwing HERSELF if she had reacted that way? I’ve given her a beautiful life over the years and she is very happy in her current life and marriage. Would she have been better off to have flushed that all down the toilet, rather than forgive?

    I’ll repeat…even in the current corrupt court system we have a woman has more to lose by being unfaithful to a husband in a marriage than a husband being unfaithful to his wife*. She can more easily reconcile a cheating husband because it’s often not a pretty picture if she chooses to leave the marriage.

    Whereas a husband who has a cheating wife doesn’t really have any upside to reconcile other than perhaps the children…and it seems the trend many men talk about is if she cheats once, she’ll do it again (seems to be the case if a husband cheats too). Being a cuckold and raising another man’s child is a real threat.

    *looking at it secularly…morally both would be dead in mortal sin unless they go to Confession

  201. Jason says:

    Welcome “Fakeemail”

    Lots of interesting people drop in here. I live a few hours north of you up in Fresno……hope you find what you are looking for and need. There is a wealth of information here, and no my fellow Christian brother you are not alone.

    Welcome!

  202. Kristo Miettinen says:

    For those curious about Scandinavian marriage rates, it is important to realize that in Scandinavia there is a lesser form of legal union for cohabiting couples that does not have all the same shared property implications as marriage. It is “samlevnad” in Swedish, and something similar in the related languages. Basically, cohabiting committed Scandinavians don’t marry because they have a legal form of recognition of their relationship that is well-suited to dual-earner couples where each party is sufficiently well-off to want to preserve financial independence.

  203. Novaseeker says:

    Welcome!

    Yeah it’s an old note from several years ago, I remember when he first posted it here.

    By “slipped up few times since then” are you saying that you still cheat on her?

    I think he means that he’s had some issues in the area from time to time. It happens. It isn’t good — I take it from what he has written he doesn’t think it’s good either, but people do sin.

  204. Jeff Strand says:

    @ FeministHater,

    I’m guessing I’m just jealous of your lifestyle. Can’t blame me, right? Living alone your whole life, stewing in anger, bitterness, and resentment. Screaming “Whore!” at every woman who walks by, and “Cuck!” at every married man.

    It just sounds so appealing. So only natural I should be jealous, right?

  205. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Frank K and Gunner Q,

    I consider myself a high status, redpilled Greater Beta. I am not an Apex Alpha. But I don’t understand this attitude in the ‘sphere that it’s so difficult to score some pu$$y. Of course, it’s much easier for a chick to get laid, all she has to do is snap her fingers. We all agree on that.

    But is the ‘sphere really so full of losers who can’t get any? I know that’s what the feminists always claimed, but I never believed it. Look, scoring with chicks isn’t rocket science, esp in the age of Internet dating. You come across with some confidence, flatter her and get her to talk about herself, make her laugh, buy her some drinks, don’t come off as cheap, arrogant or rude, and escalate at the appropriate moments. It’s really not that hard. I have had to fight the temptation many times as a married man, and as I said, I am sorry to say I have slipped up from time to time and given in. I just love women, I love f-cking them, lol.

    I have a buddy in his mid 40’s. He’s divorced and playing the field. He’s got one steady girlfriend and 3 regular FB’s that he keeps in his rotation. On the FB’s he spends almost no money, he just goes to their place for a romp in the hay. He tells me, “Dude, it’s soooo easy!” Now he’s a decent looking guy, but he’s no Brad Pitt. But he’s relatively high status (has a Master’s), tells them what they want to hear, and comes off as masculine and confident. If a chick he meets from online dating won’t put out, he will just next her and move on to one who will. Like he said, easy.

    So I wish the guys on the ‘sphere would stop talking about how it’s a Herculean task for guys to get a chick to sleep with them. Makes it sound like the ‘sphere is a bunch of losers who live in mom’s basement watching porn all day, who can’t get laid to save their life!

  206. feministhater says:

    Lol, you mad bro?

    I ain’t what anyone should aspire to be. Don’t be a jealous of little old me. Haha.

    I just don’t put my unwillingness to be alone above my ability to be sane. Right now a marriage to a woman would be a lifetime of worrying about her cheating, the fear of children not being mine, being divorced and having my life turned upside down by the decisions of someone who is not happy. I’m also very negative about putting my well being in a contract that has been overtaken by the government that is always here to help of course. I don’t want that.

    I’m also loathe to take advice from the man who just admitted that he might have found his unicorn but tends to cheat on her from time to time because I guess his needs are not met…

    You’re a contradiction. Cheating is not an accident, it is a deliberate choice to betray the very person who you made vows to, it’s destroys marriage and cannot build it up no matter how much you justify it.

  207. feministhater says:

    But is the ‘sphere really so full of losers who can’t get any? I know that’s what the feminists always claimed, but I never believed it. Look, scoring with chicks isn’t rocket science, esp in the age of Internet dating. You come across with some confidence, flatter her and get her to talk about herself, make her laugh, buy her some drinks, don’t come off as cheap, arrogant or rude, and escalate at the appropriate moments. It’s really not that hard. I have had to fight the temptation many times as a married man, and as I said, I am sorry to say I have slipped up from time to time and given in. I just love women, I love f-cking them, lol.

    Oh, so now you’re PUA married Christian guy who doesn’t mind being cucked as long as he gets to fuck women. Just stop already.

  208. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Novaseeker: “By “slipped up few times since then” are you saying that you still cheat on her?

    I think he means that he’s had some issues in the area from time to time. It happens. It isn’t good — I take it from what he has written he doesn’t think it’s good either, but people do sin.”

    Spot on here.

    I have increased my prayer life in recent years, started attending the Traditional Latin Mass, go to Confession when I can, started praying regularly to St. Mary of Egypt (patron saint for those who struggle with sins of the flesh), cultivated a devotion to the Sacred Heart, and so on. And really focused more on plenty of regular sex with the wife – not exactly a chore, as she is still quite sexy and attractive and she makes sure she is “always available”.

    All this has really helped (plus I’m getting older, lol). And so I have been “good” for several years now. Truly hope to keep that going.

    I hear tell that as one gets older…your sex drive drops off. Hasn’t happened for me, but maybe one day it will. In the meantime I will continue to do battle with these temptations – they are my cross to bear.

    And I do stop from time to time to remember my sins, and cry over them (even if they have been forgiven in Confession)

  209. Jeff Strand says:

    @ FeministHater: “I just don’t put my unwillingness to be alone above my ability to be sane. Right now a marriage to a woman would be a lifetime of worrying about her cheating, the fear of children not being mine, being divorced and having my life turned upside down by the decisions of someone who is not happy. I’m also very negative about putting my well being in a contract that has been overtaken by the government that is always here to help of course. I don’t want that.”

    I understand that’s your opinion. And I previously said I wish you good luck with that and hope it works out for you. And I sincerely meant that, but I guess you took it as sarcasm so you responded by insulting me.

    Why is it so hard to believe that I truly hope the path you have chosen works out for you? Because I do hope it brings you happiness and joy, just as my decision to marry has done for me. Good luck to you.

  210. Frank K says:

    Jeff – Remember, if you aren’t truly repentant, and from your posts you sound like you take pride in your sins, then the absolution you receive in the confessional is null and void.

    That, said, your contradictory responses here pretty much confirm that you are indeed a troll.

  211. earlthomas786 says:

    So I wish the guys on the ‘sphere would stop talking about how it’s a Herculean task for guys to get a chick to sleep with them.

    That’s the disconnect. For men who it is easy to get laid and know what to do they won’t understand how some men are unattractive to women and have no clue what to do.

    For me…I know what to do and had chances to go there, what stopped me was the fact that fornicators don’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and that’s more important to me. So I have the more difficult task of either being celibate or doing it licitly in marriage. But I certainly don’t think it’s a mystery of what turns on women.

  212. Jason says:

    Men…..take it down a thousand…………look, we’re all in different situations here. Catholic and Protestant. Lapsed and devout. Married and single. Young and old. Some here no matter “what” they do will ever be married…………

    If you are a solid, practicing single Christian man, who wants to be married it is “herculean” to meet someone. Any age. Not impossible, but a serious challenge in the “I’m dating Jesus atmosphere” of Christian women and the fallout we’re still reveling from that book “I Kissed dating Goodbye” (that book ruined Christian dating for everyone caused many of the problems we are dealing with now), combine this with Christian women, pastors, pundits, and writers bringing in the world’s standard of dating INTO the church, stamping / slapping it with a “christian” sphere of Bible quotes and muscled up by phony christian manhood and “voila!”

    A muddled mess of half-hearted scriptures, a mess of what marriage is and means now (ummm, it’s to glorify God, not you personally), and stupid “fake n phony” appeal to the secular world of “Look worldly people, we Christians are cool too! Can we sit in the back of the schoool bus with you now? Please??!!!”

    Marriage rates plummeted further, crass materialism and careerism was brought in en mass and now no man “can stand toe-to-toe” with a “real (cough) woman of God” and really, if a woman is “dating Jesus” (waiting for the right one) she’s gonna be waiting. No man can be Him. None. Not one. Not ever. Not even the pastor, despite what they may think and portray to their respected flocks……and I’m sorry, not every Christian man is gonna be a pastor at a large, well funded, endowed mega church (Driscoll, Platt, Chandler, and others).

    It’s no surprise here that things are more messed up in the Christian realm.

    I lived in the world a mighty long time in loose and wild San Francisco for most of my twenties and thirties. Not one date. Not one hook-up. Not one make out session. Not one girlfriend. I could tell you the crazy night down in the Tenderloin on LSD, or that off the hook party with Fiona Apple at the Thievery Corporation show in 1998…..dancing while ripped on cocaine in a warehouse at 4am to soul music…..and I can also talk about depression, loneliness, a world without God in it, and life without Him. A world that had no meaning and all abandon thrown to drink, drugs and escape….wishing and hoping by the end of that trip in 2007 of “Could this be the night? the night I will go to sleep and just never wake up???”

    The curtain came crashing down to zero applause when my end came, and His began.

    It’s not easy to meet women, and very hard to meet a woman of merit and value. Just saying 😉

    Some guys have it. Some don’t. Some learn. Some never will.

  213. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Frank K,

    If you want to think I’m a troll, knock yourself out. But I wouldn’t do that on this blog, out of respect for Dalrock. I’ve been a reader of his blog for years. And I’m quite aware of the conditions for a valid confession, thank you.

    @ Earl,

    That was my question. Is the ‘sphere really made up of guys who (to use your words) “are unattractive to women and have no clue what to do”? I hate to think that this is the case, because then you’re basically confirming the feminist claim that the manosphere is made up of bitter guys who can’t get laid – which explains why they’re bitter.

  214. Don's Johnson says:

    “relatively high status(he has a master’s)”
    Anyone still have the text analyzer, I’m trending towards woman with the last two posts by Jeff, and this bit especially. Oh he has a master’s degree? He must slay poon.

  215. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “I lived in the world a mighty long time in loose and wild San Francisco for most of my twenties and thirties. Not one date. Not one hook-up. Not one make out session. Not one girlfriend”

    Something there does not compute.

  216. Of course it computes Jeff. Jason might have been short, fat, and ugly. Hell, Jason could have just been short and ugly. That equals not one girlfriend.

  217. earlthomas786 says:

    Who cares what feminists think of the sphere….if a man disagrees with them on anything in the feminist ethos they assume they are misogynistic bitter virgins.

    I don’t think most men around here have trouble attracting women…it’s the rampant sexual immorality, open hypergamy, and divorce for the flimsiest reasons that give men pause to pursue a relationship or marriage.

  218. Jason says:

    Compute? It’s San Francisco. That city doesn’t compute! It’s a strange and surreal place. I knew plenty of men who never dated…and no, we were not “tooly” nor did we think ‘Star Trek’ was real. We had social skills. It was impossible and very herculean to get a girl horizontal with you for plenty of men there. Every girl I knew just wanted to honk up my good cocaine and then go blow a guy they just met in a dank, urine soaked bathroom floor. Real classy? n’est pas?

    Nothing computes in that city!

    Chatting up a very hot girl at ‘Casanova Lounge’ in 1999 and she is a full on tease to me the whole night, and then we go to her apartment and a freakshow of CLOWN everything in her apartment. Wallpaper, pillows, statues, posters, cups, blankets, dolls, music boxes……clown everything. I got the FREAKS out of there fast.

    Compute? San Francisco????? Come on now! Freaky town and time during the dot.com boom / bust and then the wary post 9-11 years……….nothing adds up…and sure, many guys who DID get action were better looking than me. A fact. True.

    But plenty of guys in that city don’t really date at all, or hook-up and they slowly end up swirling down a fetid drain of drink, drugs, or other freaky behaviors that I really don’t want to know about……no one does.

    Nothing computes in that city. Alpha guys in San Francisco forget one “critical” thing. They *think* they are amazing, but it’s ALWAYS the woman in that city…the city that does not compute……….that decides sex. It’s never the guy. Never.

  219. Jason says:

    Nah…my man…I’m 6’4″ slender, and I had a thick head of blonde hair back then. Yeah………my eyes are still blue. Average looking dude

  220. Oscar says:

    Isn’t it interesting how a fat woman who “can’t shake the weight” while married suddenly finds the motivation to do so after a divorce?

    Via Instapundit:

    https://www.womenshealthmag.com/fitness/alejandra-mace-fitness-transformation

  221. Jeff,

    That was my question. Is the ‘sphere really made up of guys who (to use your words) “are unattractive to women and have no clue what to do”? I hate to think that this is the case, because then you’re basically confirming the feminist claim that the manosphere is made up of bitter guys who can’t get laid – which explains why they’re bitter.

    Unfortunately, this IS the case for much (maybe the majority) of the manosphere. A lot of them are short. A lot of them are ugly. A lot of them have never been laid. We are talking the comic book guy from the Simpsons. There are all sorts of interviews on youtube where there was a man (speaking out for OUR side) who is really ugly and massively obese. It CAN’T be these men speaking out for us. They need to shut the hell up. I hate to say this, but the most alpha representative of the MGTOW aspect of the manosphere, is probably Bill Maher. Bill is channeling the red pill through liberalism (which is wrong) but he did take the red pill.

  222. Jason,

    Nah…my man…I’m 6’4″ slender, and I had a thick head of blonde hair back then. Yeah………my eyes are still blue. Average looking dude

    Okay so no confidence? Or, no money? San Francisco is extremely wealthy, a very rich city where people make huge dollars. Women can really dig for gold there more than they could pretty much anywhere.

  223. earlthomas786 says:

    I’m 6’4″ and average looking, and make enough to live comfortably…so perhaps I have some aesthetic traits that would hook a girl. But I’m nowhere near what you’d call a ladies man.

    If I wanted to date a gal…I’d ask. If it led to her giving indications she wanted to be my gf…I stated that was the case. If I wanted to kiss her…I’d either ask or do it. The big hang up guys have is that they don’t do anything or wait for the gal to make something happen. Even rejection isnt so bad if you made an effort.

  224. Jason says:

    Money? I had a corporate job for most of my stay there. Confidence or do you mean ‘arrogance’ because I met too many men there who had the ego the size of God and really nothing to back it up when real pushes came to real shoves.

    Wealthy city? So is New York, DC, the Southland (LA Basin) and Boston….I am sure many of the same issues I faced back in the surreal Clinton years in The City.

    All I noticed was during my whole stay in that pretentious place was this:

    A woman liked you or she didn’t. You could be a dishwasher, and if she wanted to take you for a ride. She would. You could be a perfect gentleman, easy on the eyes and be passed up. You could be in a rock band and still be batting 600. it just boiled down to right party, right scene and her frame of mind at that moment…..a chance of the dice.

    Gold had nothing to do with it, plenty of men who make a decent living there were nursing a beer by themselves on many a foggy night in nameless, faceless bars and clubs.

  225. feeriker says:

    Wouldn’t you just love to read your fiance praying she dies first in a marriage just days before you get married followed by the hamsterization explanation…and then also reading her subtly revealing to the whole world her sexual immorality*.

    Like most 21st-Century North American women, this one has serious health problems with that gray-colored organ located underneath the skull top.

    Also, how much hormonal birth control has she been taking, and for how many years? If she truly finds that pasty metrosexual limpwrist sexually attractive, then I knowher body and brain chemistry have been seriously corrupted.

  226. adam says:

    The reason the cartel could never work is because women would have to actually be feminine (staying in shape, peaceful spirit, etc.)
    in order to attract men. The answer to the question “if you aren’t giving away sex then what are you doing to attract men?” would bring back patriarchy.

    Today’s woman views giving away sex easier than giving a man a soft, meek diligent and attractive spirit.

  227. Jason says:

    Jeff,

    As to men in the man-o-sphere being like “comic book guy” a la “The Simpsons” or angry bitter dudes with no real merit inside and out?

    Look, I’ll tell you this. Yes. There are out there. More than a few if truth be told. I’ve met a few…heck……for a period after I left San Francisco and began the process of rebuilding my life in Fresno I was a pretty bitter dude. It’s unattractive on any man. I got over it. Thankfully I had a few decent men gently, patiently guide and counsel me that I had not been “forsaken”

    I have though met several men in person who are MGTOW-ish or in situations like mine in the Christian world and realms……..something is indeed “rotten in Denmark” (to quote ol Bill Shakespeare). It could be argued hypergmay, feminine nature unchecked, PC-culture, the advent of the The Pill, abortion on demand, corrupt family courts, Title IX, too many freaking lawyers, the modern Democratic party….the greater Christian church dropping the ball. I don’t think or believe there is a silver bullet answer. I could make an convincing argument about Henry Ford being responsible for the sexual revolution if I wanted to…..

    Most men are not “comic book guy” and most men are not “living in a basement” nor are they rapists or murders. Most men get up, work, are okay looking, have a personality, skills, hopes and desires. The bar keeps going up of “what we not are, or living up to” or in the church Christian women like to say the shopworn phrase “…….having God call you to be the man He intended you to be”

    The bar seems to be raised constantly and by the time a man gets to my age (born 1970) and you would think reality would set in. Some wisdom…..but the ante still goes up with women. I don’t hate them. My vet to my cat is a kindly, attractive woman who is good at her trade….good to my cat too. I know a married woman personally who is a great wife and helper to her man. She’s an inspiration…..and guess what? She’s an average looking woman. I am still friends with a few women I went to college with. I am polite to the girl at Starbucks with the neon colored hair who made my espresso. I had a laugh with the sales girl at Banana Republic a few weeks back when I paid with cash for a new dress shirt (It was 5pm and I was her first cash-sale for her whole shift of seven hours)

    The fringes get noticed, but “our time” is coming. Plenty of decent looking men are speaking up, and the “rotten in Denmark” will be made known. If it hasn’t already. MGTOW is growing by leaps and bounds. Everyone of these men is not a loser with no confidence or lacking decent looks / career / social skills

  228. Everyone of these men is not a loser with no confidence or lacking decent looks / career / social skills

    That is correct. Not all MGTOWs are insufferable losers. You are right. But the ones who ARE super fat, ugly, short, with lower IQ, they need to shut the hell up. Fly under the radar, we will cover for you. Do not go out in public and be recorded trying to argue for our side against the feminists because… you will be discredited. They will tease and taunt you. They will not listen to a word you say. And everyone who is watching will assume this whole red pill thing is just angry guys who just can’t get laid. And that is NOT the impression we want to leave.

  229. feeriker says:

    Too many women like this one, and her equally desperate friends are finding out that their demands, and attitude don’t work on working class men of merit and value aymore.

    Remember: these twats have been raised since birth utterly unrestrained by any social graces or discipline and have NEVER been told “NO!” This feral behavior is the inevitable result.

    Had I been in your place, I probably would have laid a hammerfist into her forearm and hopefully broken it. I consider unsolicited physical contact like that, from either sex, to be assault that justifies self-defense.

  230. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason,

    I hear where you’re coming from if you say modern culture and feminism have ruined most women today in terms of being wife material. I agree with that. I said as much earlier, when I said that while I found and married a NAWALT, they are not easy to find. So I don’t dispute that at all.

    But that’s finding a WIFE. You know, a woman to trust with your life and your kids. That’s way different than when you claim you went through your whole 20’s and 30’s in a major American city without finding a single girl who would even go on a single date with you! Or find a single girl to make out with you (not even talking actual sex), in all those years.

    Yet you say you were tall, not obese, no obvious deformities, full head of hair, and had social skills.

    Sorry, I’m not buying it. And if you are on the level, then THE PROBLEM WAS YOU. I hate to say that, but you need some brutal honesty.

  231. rugby11 says:

  232. feeriker says:

    I know a good number of young women – by one or two degrees of separation – from their early twenties to their mid thirties. Of the ones in their early to mid twenties none want marriage or even a relationship.

    Well, good. It’s almost a certainty that none of them are even remotely relationship material, let alone wife material, anyway.

    How kind of them to self-select out of the pool.

  233. Anon says:

    Wente said :

    Time to get our act together, ladies. If we don’t, they won’t either.

    By saying this alone, she deserves huge credit for at least having some cause and effect awareness that most women lack. She also is telling women what to do to a much greater degree than a cuckservative or mangina would.

    For all her other flaws, Wente is smarter than most women.

  234. Embracing Reality says:

    To me MGTOW at their core are simply men refusing marriage. My path to the red pill and the manosphere was learning Game. PUA’s brought me here but before learning game or after nobody was calling me a loser. I don’t remember how old I was when I started dating but I remember dating attractive 16 year old girls. PUA’s don’t teach men to get married… Marriage among the heathen PUA gurus I’ve listened to was for losers.

    As a Christian single never married man I’m expected, by God, to live celibate or get married. Christian women available to me, while reasonably attractive, seem to offer me little yet require much. I’m probably going to break it off with a woman this weekend. She’s really into me. She says it’s been 3 months, I don’t remember. It’s like I barely pay attention to them anymore, like I don’t care enough. If I end up going my own way in this life it won’t be because I’m a loser, its because I want to win.

  235. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Jason,

    You’re really better off having had little success with women. You really didn’t miss out on much in my view except a lot of regrets now.

    I’ve never been to CA, let alone know the scene in San Francisco but you probably just needed to change a couple of minor things, who knows. A bad ass Kawasaki helped me out with a lot of silly young females. It was so easy to get foolish young twits to climb on the back. Then again, maybe you had discriminating taste in women and just needed to select down a bit. Either way you still didn’t miss much. I’ve dated a lot of women and I’m convinced, in every case, I’m the one that got away!

  236. Höllenhund says:

    As long as we’re talking about women who go on business trips, girls’ night outs, girls-only vacations, women who basically travel for any reason and interact with men outside your social circle while doing so, AWALT applies without question.

  237. Mark says:

    @Dalrock

    I had a nice chat with a writer at the G & M today.He is in the Business/Real Estate area of the paper.He is a GREAT contact and we use him frequently.The reason that I had to call him was that he is doing a piece on Real Estate of the Rosedale section of Toronto and asked if I could possibly get him into my parents home for some pictures.Of which,without me he wouldn’t have a hope in hell of doing so.While I had him on the phone I brought up the Wente article from the paper.Being a divorced man with 2 kids he is quite receptacle to such a conversation. I told him that the article was making “quite a stir in the manosphere”. He inquired as to what the manosphere was and naturally had to give him a “definition” of the sphere.Again,being a divorced guy with 2 kids he was more than attentive to our conversation.I told him to look up your site and have a read as “I think that you will find everything pertinent to your situation”.He agreed to so.I also asked him about Wente and he assured me that “she was not a feminist”.I said “that is good”.He also assured me that I would really like her if I met her.I agreed that I probably would.The method to my madness is if I can get her to read ‘comments” here about her article that she will write a follow-up article that would be based on the comments here,and other sites,that would have the overtone of “See what men are thinking ladies?….and you have no one to blame but yourselves”!!!!. I told him that after he does his research would he please pass on the information to Wente and have her take a look at what he has found. As I told him…”do this for me and and I will guarantee you access to my parents home for pictures concerning your article on Real Estate in Rosedale”…….Let’s see what happens.Keep your eyes on the G & M and I will keep you posted as well.

  238. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jeff Strand: you’re basically confirming the feminist claim that the manosphere is made up of bitter guys who can’t get laid – which explains why they’re bitter.

    I’m not bitter because I can’t get laid. Getting laid is not all that important to me. I’ve not had much sex in my life, but even when directly offered the chance from women, I usually turned them down, because I felt nothing for them.

    It’s depressing having sex with a woman that one contemns, distrusts, and dislikes. It’s depressing being on a date with a woman one feels nothing for, just to avoid loneliness.

    I’m bitter not because I can’t get laid, but because I remain a blue pill romantic. I want an idealized woman. An attractive woman I can confide in, even pour my heart out to. A woman who will listen, and understand, and be emotionally supportive, and loyal and devoted, till death do we part.

    Maybe it’s unusual for a man to be so romantic, but I want love and romance more than I want sex.

    When I was younger, I fell in love with a beautiful woman that I pedestalized. In manosphere terms, I suffered from Oneitis. Then I learned that she betrayed me. She’d gone back to her old boyfriend — the one she’d always complained had abused her — and was dating him, sleeping with him, even as she was dating me. (An old story.)

    I’m bitter because I want to love, and be loved by, a beautiful, loving, intelligent, devoted, kind-hearted, even-tempered woman, with a warm sense of humor. I want a unicorn.

    If I was interested in sex alone, I could get that from a whore. I’m financially well off and whores are readily available in Los Angeles. But I’d rather be bitter and alone than with a whore. A whore would just be too depressing.

  239. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jason: then we go to her apartment and a freakshow of CLOWN everything in her apartment. Wallpaper, pillows, statues, posters, cups, blankets, dolls, music boxes……clown everything.

    I knew a woman like that. With her it was ANGEL everything. Pillows, upholstery, light switch plates, kitchen magnets, figurines, ashtrays, knickknacks, bumper stickers, her checkbook, etc.

  240. Dave says:

    It’s depressing having sex with a woman that one contemns, distrusts, and dislikes. It’s depressing being on a date with a woman one feels nothing for, just to avoid loneliness.

    True, but why torture yourself? You’re not Adam who had only one woman to choose from.
    American women constitute less than 3% of all women on earth. There are literally millions of very attractive and feminine women out there who would be forever grateful to be your spouse. They pray everyday to find someone like you.

    Even in the US, I have often come across very decent, feminine, and marriage-minded women who can be good wives. I work in healthcare, and I currently cover a hospital in a relatively rural town in Kentucky. I found the people there really personable and nice (both men and women), though most of the women seem to marry quite young. One young woman could have passed for 17, until she mentioned her husband and kid. I am sure there are still single women that could make good wives in several parts of this country.

    Since the beginning of time, it has never been easy to find a virtuous woman. Even king Solomon, with his 700 wives and 300 mistresses, could not hide his frustration, when he asked rhetorically: “Who can find a virtuous woman?”
    Granted that feminism has made the job of finding a spouse much harder, there is still reason to be hopeful. I’d say, not to resign yourself to the eyesores who pass themselves off as women in the big cities.

  241. feministhater says:

    That was my question. Is the ‘sphere really made up of guys who (to use your words) “are unattractive to women and have no clue what to do”? I hate to think that this is the case, because then you’re basically confirming the feminist claim that the manosphere is made up of bitter guys who can’t get laid – which explains why they’re bitter.

    Most guys in general do not have the ability of attractiveness to cheat on their unicorn wives. If you are not trolling, this alone puts you in a league 80% of men can never, even know.

    I don’t care what feminists think. I don’t care what churchians think. I don’t care what you think. The laws are too risky. The burden of marriage is too risky. There is little to no reward worth that sort of risk. I hope the feminists ramp it up some more. I pray they do. More madness is the key to bringing the entire edifice down. I hope they think every single man who tells his story is a loser who can’t get laid because then they will do nothing and double down causing more misery and more lonely spinsters. Then, only the eve of their destruction will they understand that their and your shaming counted for nothing. Why? A bad deal is a bad deal. That is all there is to it and only the stupid and naive don’t get that.

    Carry on shaming Jeff. It will get you no where. We’ve heard it all before, it’s to laugh over. Lol!

  242. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘I’ve dated a lot of women and I’m convinced, in every case, I’m the one that got away!’

    Yeah I realized that too. My father was the one to help point that out to me when I would have chats about women with him.

  243. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Also, how much hormonal birth control has she been taking, and for how many years? If she truly finds that pasty metrosexual limpwrist sexually attractive, then I knowher body and brain chemistry have been seriously corrupted.’

    I’d bank on at least 10 years and a lot. She might of even had an abortion if one of those ‘crosswords’ resulted in an oops.

    The way bc hormones changes the way a woman choose a mate can’t be ignored.

  244. Jim says:

    Not to mention that providers have a high probability of being ejected from their homes, losing access to their children and having to fork over half their incomes to their ex’s,

    To be honest, I’m surprised that any men, especially secular men, still want to get married, or sire any kids for that matter.

    ikr? A man would have to be a masochist to get married these days. The cunts just aren’t worth it anymore. And it’s more than just half. That’s usually BEFORE alimony (aka: extortion) and “child support (aka: extortion under the guise of “best interests of the children”).

    I read this on another website: No kids, no wife, no problems in life.

    It’s bliss let me tell you.

  245. Opus says:

    My friend (who married a Spaniard) tells me that in the days of General Franco it was illegal for a married woman and without the permission of her husband to go to a town distant to the one wherein she lived. He thought this an excellent idea (though it did not stop his then wife from running off from her boss – they too married, but would-you-know-it, she divorced him also). Women who are away from home, alone and with time on the hands are thus opened as Novaseeker explains to much temptation and I have long thought that the reason governments and corporations push female executives is so that we men might all benefit from the ministrations of hot-looking (they don’t employ fatties) women in their twenties, thirties or beyond – a sort of unofficial exchange scheme of which the women are unaware having had their pretty heads filled with nonsense about equality. Everyone knows that the purpose of females attending University in a town distant to their parents home is to experience the delights of the Carousel and there is no reason to suppose that a little matter such as marriage would make them change their life-style.

    I am however having some difficulty envisioning a time when married corporate females are open and come-out as to their infidelity. The word Slut and despite their best efforts to neuter it is and remains female kryptonite.

  246. earlthomas786 says:

    Since the beginning of time, it has never been easy to find a virtuous woman. Even king Solomon, with his 700 wives and 300 mistresses, could not hide his frustration, when he asked rhetorically: “Who can find a virtuous woman?”

    He did know what the ideal was…hence Proverbs 31. Reading Bishop Fulton Sheen’s book ‘The World’s First Love’…he mentioned the Virgin Mary is the ideal woman in men’s minds whether they know it or not.

    I know some men want woman for sex, others want them for love and romance and an emotional connection…I think all men if they really thought about long enough they truly want the virtuous woman. Hence why her value is more precious than rubies.

  247. Novaseeker says:

    I am however having some difficulty envisioning a time when married corporate females are open and come-out as to their infidelity. The word Slut and despite their best efforts to neuter it is and remains female kryptonite.

    And people would have thought the same thing about female sexual behavior in general, today, if asked about it 70 years ago. The point is that the *groundwork* is being done, in that CNN article and the books it cites, such that this behavior will no longer be “slut” behavior, just as the 4 year sex party known as college is no longer considered “slut” behavior, nor is clubbing, Tinder and the like. What is considered “slutty” is exactly the issue, you are correct, but that is subject to change, and that is what they are laying the foundations for here.

  248. Novaseeker says:

    A problem in the manosphere has always emerged from time to time between the following two groups:

    (1) sympathetic alphas/high betas who don’t get what it’s like for guys who aren’t like them, or, like IBB, want the guys who are not like them to shut up, or who think that guys who are not like them are all losers

    (2) run of the mill “guy average” guys who are getting fucked by the SMP badly.

    These two groups conflict.

    It has always been interesting for me to observe, as it comes up time to time, for me because I am kind of in the middle. For me it’s never been that easy to get dates, yet with some effort I did/do get them, and looking back on it, much more than my friends in HS and college did (mostly in the second group, other than one friend who was in the first group, and who taught me the rudiments of game through observation back in the mid 80s when it didn’t have a name — and then later in the 90s when we went “sarging” together in Manhattan on the weekends — again that term didn’t exist but the behavior did). I have been married, I have had GFs after being divorced and so on — it happens for me, it isn’t “easy as pie” as some would suggest, but it happens, and I am very average looking at best. It’s probably the game I learned from my college buddy really.

    But my point is this: the guys who are having more difficulty are not all 5’4″ fat nerd losers living in Mom’s basement eating cheetos and playing Call of Duty. They’re not. I could have been one of them with less game learned by osmosis at a younger age. These are simply average men. Average men are having a tremendous amount of difficulty in this SMP/MMP, guys.

    I think you natural higher betas/alphas have a lot of fucking nerve trying to tell them all to shut up. Fuck you, shut up. Why don’t you shut the fuck up, IBB? You know what, this isn’t a fucking political party. If you want that, IBB, go and fucking start it. This space — the sphere I mean, not this specific blog, whose host is very tolerant of broad discussion, and of that we can all hopefully be thankful to him — is a place for men to come and share their problems and their miseries and their issues, and vent and find support and answers. It isn’t a fucking political party or a fucking beauty contest — if you want to do that, by all means do, and I may even support it. But this place isn’t for that — it is for supporting these legions of men who are hurting, who have no answers, who have no hope. They don’t need you telling them they are losers and that they need to shut up. If anyone needs to shut up, it’s you!

  249. seventiesjason says:

    Jeff Strand

    Not anymore. My “singleness being my fault” that is. I blamed myself in college, grad school….. always was watching the “cool guy” who was good with the girls. I read books. I befriended women…..I even did a PUA “bootcamp and retreat” (that was really my fault on that one).

    Looking back now that I am almost fifty. No. I did nothing wrong. I broke no girls heart. I didn’t lie n sly to get the panties to drop. I had a life outside of my job at IBM. I could put sentences together, had more than two brain cells to rub together. Had (and still do have) a very good sense of style. I volunteer and do things.

    Yeah, I blamed myself for many years. All my fault while the drinking and drug use slowly climbed…and before you tell me that was the reason why I couldn’t get even a date……plenty of drunks, addicts (most of them) find an equally messed up girlfriend.

    It boiled down to time, luck, and lack of both as i got older…and feg aty ahe now. I got tired of even a very plain Jane type of girl expecting Hollywood. It got so sickening to hear I was always: too nice / trying too hard / not trying hard enough / volunteer more / be a rebel and make women talk to you / you gotta put yourself out there and approach….

    The list went on and I got really really depressed.

    After cleaning up and moving I have met many men who are not ugly. No physical deformities. Okay job. Not fat. No bad breath. Clean fingernails who can’t get a date to save their lives.

    I spent most of my life blaming myself. I don’t anymore. It just didn’t work out. I could spend the rest of my life blaming women….but I won’t. Most are not marriage or even dating material.

    I’m tired of men equating their self worth and worth of fellow men by how many women they date, bed or wed.

    Your comment wasnt hash, can assure you, harsher things have been said and done to me….but too many men who have no problems dating assume no guy has a problem and women are just “fun”

    No hate my man. Happy for you. I do believe NAWALT’s do exist. Just understand something. It wasn’t for lack of trying. Some men have it. Some just don’t. 🙂

  250. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Novaseeker,

    Calm down before you give yourself a stroke.

    I can’t speak for IBB, but here’s what I took his comments to mean:

    ***. Of course everyone is free to give their opinions and talk about their experiences. But as any politician or Madison Ave exec will tell you, image matters. And if the redpill movement gets the image that it’s a movement made up of a bunch of “Comic Guy”s from The Simpsons, all angry and bitter because they can’t get laid, then the movement will suffer. Women will just laugh at us, and any men who have their schit together will want nothing to do with us…they just won’t want to be associated with us. ***

    I could be wrong, but I think that’s what IBB was trying to convey. And it’s hard to see where he’s wrong, whether you like the message or not.

  251. earlthomas786 says:

    The important lesson is to not go down the route of feminists and tear down men because of their lack of success with women. We have enough emasculation as it is.

    Are you a responsible adult, are you productive and not a drain to society, do you take care of your body your mind your soul. Do you not shy away from your responsibilities…and in times of need you step up. These are the things that more so determine a successful man than how many women you can bed

  252. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason,

    I wasn’t slamming you or calling you a loser by any means. I just cannot understand how an at least average looking guy, who claims to have at least normal social skills, can go through his 20’s and 30’s without finding even one girl who will go on just a simple date. Assuming he was actually trying to date girls during all those years.

    Not slamming you personally – I don’t even know you! Just saying that I find that incomprehensible and I can’t wrap my mind around it, that’s all.

    P.S. Thank you for your kind comments at the end of your post. All the best to you!

  253. Frank K says:

    And I’m quite aware of the conditions for a valid confession, thank you.

    It’s your funeral, dude.

  254. BillyS says:

    I expect that Jeff Strand would be far less accepting of his wife acting like he did. He slutted it around for years, while married. He thinks the fact that she stuck with his bad-boy self that accepting infidelity is great.

    He sounds like an idiot sinner who really needs to turn from his idiocy, not someone who needs to pontificate how to make things work here.

  255. Novaseeker says:

    Jeff —

    You still don’t get it.

    It is NOT A MOVEMENT. It is not a POLITICAL PARTY. It is a group of guys helping each other.

    This confusion comes up from time to time.

    Look, if some of you guys want to make a political or social change movement based on red pill principles, you’re more than welcome. But do not piss in the soup kitchen’s soup, where guys are in triage.

    Understand?

  256. BillyS says:

    Jeff Strand also falls into IBB’s general mindset of “why can’t they all be like ME?”

  257. J says:

    @ Jason

    Jason, I can definitely relate. As best I can tell I’m an average guy in terms of looks and charisma. I’ve had plenty of dates and three long-term girlfriends where marriage was discussed. Two of the three girlfriends cheated on me and the other repeatedly signaled that her career was a priority over marriage/family — I could have married any of them but wisdom saved me from that. As an average guy, it is a lot of work to try to connect and you do reach a point where you just don’t have the energy. As you said, I also get tired of the average xtian girl who expects hollywood looks and charisma from men.

    @ Jason

    You are probably a top 20% guy which is fantastic. All I can say is that we live in entirely different worlds. I have a close friend who is top 20% and he has women chasing him wherever he goes. We talk and laugh about it, but neither one of use can really understand each others situation.

  258. Jeff Strand says:

    @ BillyS: “Jeff Strand also falls into IBB’s general mindset of “why can’t they all be like ME?”

    Whatever dude. All I’m saying is that not being able to get any dates or any action at all from chicks in your 20’s and 30’s is not normal. Now, I’m not saying the guys who claim that was their experience are losers, as I don’t even know them.

    Just saying that it’s an outlier experience. If you think the normal experience of most guys in between age 20 and 40 is that they can’t any girls to even date them, then I would say you’re living in a alternate reality.

  259. Nova,

    I think you natural higher betas/alphas have a lot of fucking nerve trying to tell them all to shut up. Fuck you, shut up. Why don’t you shut the fuck up, IBB? You know what, this isn’t a fucking political party. If you want that, IBB, go and fucking start it. This space — the sphere I mean, not this specific blog, whose host is very tolerant of broad discussion, and of that we can all hopefully be thankful to him — is a place for men to come and share their problems and their miseries and their issues, and vent and find support and answers.

    You have misunderstood me. When I say they need to shut up, I mean they need to shut up in public when addressing the media. I don’t mean they need to shut up HERE. Everyone here will always have my support.

    Sorry for the confusion.

  260. Novaseeker says:

    If you think the normal experience of most guys in between age 20 and 40 is that they can’t any girls to even date them, then I would say you’re living in a alternate reality.

    It depends on what you are saying there.

    “Any” girls? Well, sure. There are always the 1-3s out there. They’re available for dates for the most part. But for your bog standard average male “5” in looks, and lets say delta in Vox’s taxonomy … not really getting any action from girls who are 5s. He can date 3s, but most of those guys prefer porn to 3s.

    Myself, I didn’t have this issue because I learned game at a young age before it had a name, and even though I was never as good at it as my friend, I became good enough at it such that I could punch what women would consider “above my weight” (i.e., looks peers). My friends in college, other than the guy who was a natural — no GFs, 4 years. Not kidding. They marveled at me with my 3 college GFs, which, to be honest, wasn’t impressive at all compared to what my natural buddy and his frat brothers were doing.

    They aren’t losers, Jeff, these are docs, lawyers, engineers, professors now. Good shape mostly, or they were at the relevant time (all 50s now). Did they eventually mate? Yes … in their 30s. The 20s were a wasteland for them. And this is a cohort that graduated from college in 89. It has gotten so much worse for young men now.

  261. feeriker says:

    American women constitute less than 3% of all women on earth.

    And thank God for that, too. I don’t think human civilization would survive if they were any more numerous.

    There are literally millions of very attractive and feminine women out there who would be forever grateful to be your spouse.

    THIS. You just have to travel to other parts of the world still relatively unpoisoned by American culture in order to find them. That’s where I found my own unicorn.

    They pray everyday to find someone like you.

    Indeed. Many also express overt revulsion at what passes for “women” here in North America.

  262. Novaseeker says:

    You have misunderstood me. When I say they need to shut up, I mean they need to shut up in public when addressing the media.

    Ok, then. I don’t care what people do in the media because I don’t consider this a movement in any meaningful sense of the word, so that’s fine.

  263. BillyS says:

    Jeff,

    You boasted that your wife took you back after you spent a hot weekend with a past love interest, and continued to accept you even though you fell into adultery more than once after that.

    You are not a model to be promoted, but someone to be shunned. You get the benefits of the modern system in many way with bad-boy actions. That is not something to boast about.

    You then argue from that foundation that all but fat nerds should be able to find a decent woman. You fail to see the modern system for what it is, especially since you have personally benefited from it.

  264. earlthomas786 says:

    The reason why I haven’t had a lot of dates or gfs is because I hold myself to higher standards and expect her to do the same. Nova is right…if I had no standards I could find a common whore pretty easily.

    I’m especially talking morally high standards for her. If I got enough info to see she might be a prospect then the only game I run is flat out ask her out, plan, and start getting to know her. My last gf I could tell certainly had enough tells that she was…and it was a good relationship. If she cheated or lied to me it’ll come out in time but I haven’t see or heard any indications of that.

  265. feministhater says:

    There are endless amounts of post wall women looking to get hitched. There is no end to the amount of walled out pussy the average man could get if he is willing to lower himself into the den of hags with yeast infected snatches. It’s not that average men can’t get pussy. It’s that the pussy on offer has no value relative to marriage. Adding to that the dreaded dry spells throughout his teens and twenties; and the willingness to wife up one of those aging tarts who rejected him back when he was younger and looking for a wife…. pooof, gone. Who cares what they think of MGTOW or Christian Red Pill men, it matters not? Let them double, triple and quadruple down in their madness. Let them try and pass a law forbidden porn, sex robots and demanding marriage of all men, just let them try. I’ll be laughing my ass off. It’s funny now, just laugh and enjoy your one life.

    There is nothing they can do anymore. The shame has worn off, the pity has worn off. The allure of marriage has gone, replaced by the cemented truth and nothing, not even a jackhammer will remove it.

  266. earlthomas786 says:

    Jeff I say this as a fellow Catholic…you’re still struggling with the sons of the flesh. I think most men do present company included…however it’s the perception of pride you did it and got away with it that is not the path to follow. I don’t take any pride in my sexual sins…they lead me on a path away from God.

  267. feeriker says:

    …what stopped me was the fact that fornicators don’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and that’s more important to me. So I have the more difficult task of either being celibate or doing it licitly in marriage.

    That most (yes, MOST) “Christian” women would react to that statement with derision and/or revulsion effectively negates their claim to the Faith, both instantly and with complete certainty. I think that just by making such a statement to a large sampling of “Christian” women, you would find that fewer than five out of every one hundred genuinely adhere to the Faith (indeed, five percent is probably being overly generous and optimistic).

  268. Anon says:

    feeriker,

    That most (yes, MOST) “Christian” women would react to that statement with derision and/or revulsion effectively negates their claim to the Faith, both instantly and with complete certainty. I think that just by making such a statement to a large sampling of “Christian” women, you would find that fewer than five out of every one hundred genuinely adhere to the Faith (indeed, five percent is probably being overly generous and optimistic).

    Oh, women are incapable of genuine faith, for the most part.

    What is worse is that pastorbators have a complete lack of genuine faith.

  269. feeriker says:

    What is worse is that pastorbators have a complete lack of genuine faith.

    Most pastorbator today are hacks, frauds who consider their position to be another profession like any other, rather than a calling ordained by GOD.

    It’s painfully obvious, just by observing them in action, that not only are they NOT serving at God’s behest and in accordance with Scripture, but most are not even genuinely born again in Christ. Thus their fear of (wo)man and complete lack of faith-inspired zeal to stand up against the forces of Satan (i.e., the current culture). They won’t and can’t put trust in something they obviously don’t truly believe in.

  270. anonymous_ng says:

    70’s Jason I’m tired of men equating their self worth and worth of fellow men by how many women they date, bed or wed.

    Social conditioning tells men from an early age that their value is dependent upon being able to get a woman to bed. We’re all complicit in it. How else to explain that the young women who’d done nothing more in life than to snort enough blow to stay skinny has more social value than a man who is building, or maintaining civilization?

  271. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Earl: “however it’s the perception of pride you did it and got away with it that is not the path to follow. I don’t take any pride in my sexual sins…they lead me on a path away from God”

    If you think I take pride in my sins, you have seriously mis-read me. Did you not see the part where I said I make an effort to recall my past sins (even though forgiven in Confession) and cry over them? Sure doesn’t sound like taking pride in them to me.

    I ‘fessed up to my past struggles in this area because while I was wrong in what I did, I think my wife made the right choice to forgive me and not let it harm our marriage. And as I said, I would do the same for her. I say this because I see so many guys saying “If my mate ever cheats on me, even one time, I automatically file for divorce and destroy the family”. And I wanted to present a different perspective – that each situation in different, but you shouldn’t rule out the possibility of forgiveness. We are all weak and we all stumble.

    My wife is a wonderful NAWALT, but also not perfect (as you would expect). As I struggled with sins of the flesh and other women, she has at times struggled with excessive spending. About 3 different times it got out of control, and she ended up with credit cards run up to between $8k to $12k. And of course, it’s on me to pay them off.

    Of course I was angry, and I remember thinking I’d PREFER it if she had cheated – then I could just forgive her and move on. Instead. I can forgive…but then I’m still on the hook to pay thousands! But of course I forgave her, every time. And I don’t bring it up or throw it back in her face…anymore than she has ever brought up that weekend fling I had right after we were married.

    Now I know you guys are all saying, “Why should you have to pay for her excessive spending? If my wife did that, I’d give her the boot!” Just like most women reading my story would tell my wife, “Why would you forgive that cheating bastard! You should file for divorce!”

    But neither of us did that. (And each time her spending issue happened, she cried in my arms how sorry she was. She just sometimes loses control when it comes to that). Instead, we forgive each other. Every time. And we try to do better. And we ARE doing better – I keep closer tabs on her accounts now and she hasn’t had a spending binge in years. And as I said previously, I haven’t had a also lapse now for years also, when it comes to those sins of the flesh.

    At this point in our lives, my wife and I are very happy and content with our marriage and with each other. Extremely so…and we are still very much in love. And I think what a tragedy it would have been had we not treated each other with lots of understanding and forgiveness.

    Again, all this is just my 2 cents. I’m not telling anybody else “You need to do it my way.” Just throwing it out there for your consideration. It just happens to be my story. Make of it what you will.

  272. earlthomas786 says:

    ‘Why should you have to pay for her excessive spending? If my wife did that, I’d give her the boot!”

    I think most men would rather take back a wife who spends too much over an adulterer.

    Perhaps you should ask a man who had a cheating wife what he went through. A lot of stories I’ve heard arent pretty.

  273. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Earl,

    I don’t know, I can’t speak for all men.

    But my main point is that folks in the redpill community should chill with the constant refrain “All women are whores, without exception. And therefore no man should EVER marry”. (FeministHater, I’m looking at you here)

    That’s a very demoralizing message to send to young men – that they can never and should never even aspire to having a family. By all means, caution them about how feminism has rendered most young women today unsuitable for marriage. But encourage them to seek out a NAWALT (assuming the young man desires a wife and family) and to marry her. Believe me, NAWALT’s are out there….I know from my own personal experience.

    Don’t tell these young men today that there’s no hope at all. You’re not helping them with that crap. Look at FeministHater – by his own admission he will be alone his whole life, never knowing the joys of fatherhood and being the head of a family (joys I am very familiar with). And why? Because he is filled to overflowing with hate, anger, bitterness, and resentment. And lives in terror of the idea that a woman will “cuck” him someday by sleeping with some guy who has a bigger dick…this idea has become a sick obsession for the guy.

    Now, if you had a son would you want him to turn out that way? Is that healthy? I can def tell you, as a dad to two daughters I’m raising to be NAWALT’s…when they’re old enough to be in the SMP, I would hope they would run from a guy like that! And so his anger and bitterness at all women becomes a vicious cycle, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    P.S. Again, not saying to be a bluepill chump. All the issues we talk about here – divorce rape, false DV accusations, etc – are real enough. By all means, open your eyes and go redpill. But find a happy medium. That’s the key to so much in life.

  274. Original Laura says:

    @earlthomas786

    Don’t underestimate the anger that can be generated when someone repeatedly (and often secretly) runs up credit card debts at 21% or more and then expects the other spouse to work endlessly to try to pay down the balances.

    My ex was a spendthrift AND an adulterer, and I can tell you that the anger regarding the misspent money is actually harder to deal with, and the debt does seem like a worse betrayal. (If the adultery had ended up leaving me with an STD my opinion might well be different.)

    At this point in my life, it would be wonderful to have back the money that I paid into a retirement fund in my 20s. But that money ended up giving my husband one of his many “fresh starts.” Most of his fresh starts were funded by money he browbeat out of me. After the divorce, his parents bailed him out repeatedly. He died in his mid 50s, flat broke despite having made a very good income his entire adult life. He always felt entitled immediately purchase any luxury item that caught his eye, and thought that his income would soon rise to meet his outgo.

    @Jeff: $8 to $12,000 in credit card debt is relatively small scale malfeasance. My ex had run up $60,000 in credit card debt at the time of our divorce in the late 80s, and the FBI later told me that he had had an additional $20,000 in credit card debt at that time on credit cards that I had never seen. If your wife has not run up any debts in a number of years, then she has learned something from experience. There are plenty of people who don’t appear to learn any lessons in life.

  275. Jason says:

    They are laughing at us anyway…even if comic book guy isn’t speaking up. Look, Peter Lloyd from the UK is a dapper, clean-cut articulate man. Published. He’s got style, a killer British accent. The guy could stop traffic on many a street in the USA I am sure………the media and women “poo poo” him and passively-aggressively dismiss him.

    Marc Rudov is another example, he’s pulled out for mostly joke fodder on FOX but the man is accomplished, average looking, career driven and minded.

    A man could publish a book about this, and he would be laughed off the set and the book tour / scene for “not being a real man and stepping up”

  276. Opus says:

    I suspect that it has ALWAYS been the case that it is easier for men to attract women when men approach to and get into their thirties. As my Father put it to me when I was mid-thirties “you are now of an age when you will be attractive to younger women and also to women whom life has passed by” – he saw the latter as a danger. That was how he put it. He was right too! I might add that his nickname for me was ‘handsome’ but that did not mean that by my insatiable standards that females were all the time falling into my lap: they had to cross my path and then excluding the married (almost all of them) reject those who did not appeal – few did.

    I hate to say it, but given the promiscuity of so many women and their delaying of matrimony, there are now so many young singletons and those whom life has passed by that romancing females must surely be easier than in earlier decades.

  277. Lost Patrol says:

    “you are now of an age when you will be attractive to younger women and also to women whom life has passed by” – he saw the latter as a danger.

    I love old man wisdom from the olden days. I discounted it in my prime of course, and have paid the price. This is what the Margaret Wente’s and all the other where/all/good/man/gone web articles are really saying, but it is too painful to actually use those terms – life has passed me by.

    How could this be? I did everything and I have nothing.

  278. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Original Laura,

    Thanks for your comments. To be accurate, it was $8k to $12k in credit card debt THREE separate times. So probably 30 grand, all told. A lot of money, and as you say, it’s probably easier to forgive for adultery because once you forgive, that’s it. It’s over. Whereas here, you forgive but then are still on the hook for tens of thousands! (all on me, as my wife is a housewife and SAHM)

    I would never recommend anyone commit adultery of course. But in a weird way, in my case it kind of helped me. Knowing how bad I had screwed up by spending that weekend with an old flame, and seeing how my wife had forgiven me immediately – no strings attached and no grudge held – seemed to make it so much easier for me to do the same for her regarding her out of control spending. Like she had earned it, you know?

    I guess it made me realize the value and grace of freely given foregiveness. And that we all screw up and hurt the ones we love from time to time.

    And yes Laura, we have both been “good” for years now…and I hope that will last indefinitely. I have built up a lot of self-control when it comes to other women and am determined to never find myself, yet again, in the confessional…confessing another mortal sin of adultery. I’m just so determined that that will NEVER happen again. Not that my wife wouldn’t forgive me if I did, but I just feel like she deserves better than that, ya know? She’s such a good wife and mother and I love and treasure her so much.

    And her spending has been under control for years now. I only let her have one credit card (with a thousand dollar limit) for emergencies. She gets an allowance from me every week into her little personal checking account. Sure, some times she’ll exceed it. When she does, I will almost always not even say anything – I just put the money in her account to make good on it. And I remind myself what a wonderful, redpilled, surrendered wife she is. And so it doesn’t bother me.

    You have a wonderful day! Sorry your marriage didn’t work out, hope you have found some peaceful in your life.

  279. Gunner Q says:

    Jeff Strand @ 8:31 am:
    “I just cannot understand how an at least average looking guy, who claims to have at least normal social skills, can go through his 20’s and 30’s without finding even one girl who will go on just a simple date.”

    Imagine “normal social skills” including “no making out until a one-and-done marriage”, “don’t maintain a drinking habit” and “work harder”. That should help.

    For my part, I just cannot understand how you could accidentally have a weekend-long orgy with a former flame while on a business trip.

  280. Jeff Strand says:

    @ GunnerQ: “That should help.”

    Nope. Didn’t.

  281. Lost Patrol says:

    Slutty women don’t end up single and alone, actually

    Images NSFW in some places I’m sure. Via Instapundit.

    http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/05/slutty-women-dont-end-up-single-and-alone-actually-6978986/

    I am a respectable married lady.
    And before I was a respectable married lady, I was a bit of a slut.

    I’m married. I got engaged at 24 and married earlier this year at 26. Before I met my husband, I was a bit of a slut.
    Not as much of a slut as I wish I had been, retrospectively, but certainly not any kind of nun.

  282. Jeff Strand says:

    @ GunnerQ: “For my part, I just cannot understand how you could accidentally have a weekend-long orgy with a former flame while on a business trip.”

    As the saying goes, “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” That should help.

    Hey, I could have been a Lutheran! Then I would have no culpability at all!

    You see, Martin Luther taught that it is not in man’s power to resist temptations to fornication and adultery, and it is foolish to even try. And men have no free will anyway, as they are like beasts of burden – if they do right it’s because God has taken the reigns and controls their actions. If they do wrong it’s because Satan has taken the reigns. Either way, man has no free will and thus no responsibility for his actions.

    And anyway, it will have no bearing on a man’s eternal destiny, as one is saved purely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, by faith. As Luther himself wrote, “A believing Christian can commit adultery – nay, murder – a thousand times a day and it would not effect his standing before the Judgment Seat of Christ….provided only he has faith,”

    Yes, the founder of Protestantism was batshit crazy. It is what it is. (Although I got a good laugh reading his book “Against The Jews and Their Lies”, where he calls for all the Jews in Germany to be hunted down and killed, and their synagogues burned to the ground. What a rascal that guy was!)

    But it was just my luck to be raised a Catholic, wherein we are actually taught that we are responsible for our actions. Crazy, right?

  283. Jeff Strand says:

    @ LostPatrol,

    Nice catch on the article. First of all, I notice the racy pics that accompany the text all show interracial couples. They are really pushing that. Well, that and same sex couples.

    Second, this quote is the money shot: “So please, take my advice. Slutty girls get married too. And when we do get married we’re better in bed thanks to all the practice, and we’re comfortable in the knowledge that we’re settling down having had our fun and tried a good number of the flavours on the menu.”

    To hamsterlate this: Once again, for the umpteenth time, you men need to man up and marry that slut!

  284. feministhater says:

    Jeff Strand is a passive aggressive cheater. Why do you guys keep responding to him?

  285. Jeff Strand says:

    @ FeministHater,

    Why don’t you tell everyone who they’re allowed to reply to? Everyone should do as you tell them, right?

  286. feeriker says:

    But my main point is that folks in the redpill community should chill with the constant refrain “All women are whores, without exception. And therefore no man should EVER marry”. (FeministHater, I’m looking at you here)

    While we could make the case the FH has gone over the top here, his sentiment is not an unwise or erroneous one. Women of ANY real moral virtue whatsoever in the Western world today are obviously so rare as to be statistically non-existent for all practical purposes. So no, in reality, the “all women are whores” attitude is just a plain common- sense observation of fact. A generalization, yes, but generalizations usually have a basis in well-established and provable truth. I hate to admit it, but I’ve also reached the point where any North American woman age seventy or younger that I encounter for the first time is, by default, a “skank/slut/whore” or “bitch” until her actions and words prove her to be otherwise (and yes, that includes [so-called] “Christian” women).

    That’s a very demoralizing message to send to young men

    Truth is very often demoralizing until you learn how to adapt to it and make the best of life in spite of it. That doesn’t mean that we should avoid it. In any case, people adapt to truth in different ways because everyone is different in their strengths and weaknesses.

    By all means, caution them about how feminism has rendered most young women today unsuitable for marriage. But encourage them to seek out a NAWALT (assuming the young man desires a wife and family) and to marry her. Believe me, NAWALT’s are out there….I know from my own personal experience.

    Yes, they are indeed out there. As I mentioned earlier, I’m engaged to one (NOT a North American, BTW, which makes all the difference in the world). Still, let me be clear (bolding to emphasize): Yes, I’ve found a unicorn. No, I will NOT EVER gloat over that fact, nor will I EVER rub it in other less fortunate mens’ noses or tell them to hunt for one. This woman was brought to me by the grace of God alone. In fact, I sometimes feel something bordering on guilt and grief for being so blessed, as so many other men, especially fellow Christian men whom I believe to be far more deserving than I of such a woman, are suffering from the deprivation of such. One of my most fervent regular prayers is that God bring genuine Christian men and women together in marriage, wherever in this world they might be that they find each other in this time of complete civilizational implosion when Satan is truly ruling the world.

    All of that aside, however, NONE OF US can be faulted for deciding that hunting the elusive NAWALT/unicorn is simply not worth the time and effort, that the risks and the excessive expenditure of effort far outweigh any possible reward. In fact, in any sane, moral society, no man would ever have to break himself by engaging in such a quest.

    Don’t tell these young men today that there’s no hope at all. You’re not helping them with that crap.

    We’re not helping them by giving them false optimism, either.

    Look at FeministHater – by his own admission he will be alone his whole life, never knowing the joys of fatherhood and being the head of a family (joys I am very familiar with). And why? Because he is filled to overflowing with hate, anger, bitterness, and resentment. And lives in terror of the idea that a woman will “cuck” him someday by sleeping with some guy who has a bigger dick…this idea has become a sick obsession for the guy.

    There is a fine line between bitterness and righteous anger. I’m in no position (and neither are you) to say whether or not FH has crossed that line, but regardless, it serves no purpose to shame and ridicule a man for having done a risk assessment and for having decided to do what is in his own long-term best interest. The saddest part is that this “Risk Assessment” has NEVER been such a matter of life and death to a man in ages past as it is now. Moreover, seldom ever does any other decision to mitigate or avoid risk result in such emotional –even physical—agony to a man as this one does. For a normal man with normal desires, the decision to MGTOW over marriage and family is a choice between slow, painful death by solitude or slow, painful death by cuckholdry and/or divorce rape. Again, in ages past society guarded men against the latter threat to a great extent. No more.

    Now, if you had a son would you want him to turn out that way? Is that healthy?

    It’s not a question of “wanting him to turn out” some way or another. If I had a son who got f***ed over by an adulterous whore, I would do everything in my power to ensure that he gets as much justice and restitution for his loss and suffering as possible. Given the way that society and its laws are stacked against him, I wouldn’t blame him one bit if he exhibited emotions that blurred the distinction between righteous anger and bitterness. Indeed, any other reaction would lead me to question HIS sanity and stability…

    I can def tell you, as a dad to two daughters I’m raising to be NAWALT’s…when they’re old enough to be in the SMP, I would hope they would run from a guy like that! And so his anger and bitterness at all women becomes a vicious cycle, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    News flash, pal: You have ZE-RO control over how your two daughters will behave as adults. Gloat all you want to over taking the moral high ground, but you surely know that you’re fighting a losing battle for their souls (and I’ll rub it in here that your own adulterous past won’t go unnoticed or unabsorbed by them, either; kids observe what you DO more than what you say). Unless you’ve cloistered them away like little nuns, the culture is out there waiting to swallow them up. Your daughters have no greater chance of growing up as moral, virtuous young women than do any two random young girls raised by non-Christian or absentee parents.

    P.S. Again, not saying to be a bluepill chump. All the issues we talk about here – divorce rape, false DV accusations, etc – are real enough. By all means, open your eyes and go redpill. But find a happy medium. That’s the key to so much in life.

    It’s easy for the well-fed rich man to tell the poor man to stop complaining about the gnawing hunger in his belly. Walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes before you dispense sanctimonious free advice.

  287. Gunner Q says:

    feministhater @ 4:37 pm:
    “Jeff Strand is a passive aggressive cheater. Why do you guys keep responding to him?”

    I wasn’t sure. It’s not uncommon for Alphas to honestly have no comprehension of the lives of ordinary men. Also not uncommon for them to have no respect or concern for ordinary men, either. If cooperation and compassion were sexy then we Deltas wouldn’t have much to complain about.

    But the cheap shots at Protestantism are definitive. It’s obviously time for the weekend to start.

  288. Jeff Strand says:

    @ GunnerQ: “But the cheap shots at Protestantism”

    No cheap shots, that’s what Luther actually taught. That’s historical fact.

  289. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Feeriker: “Yes, I’ve found a unicorn. No, I will NOT EVER gloat over that fact, nor will I EVER rub it in other less fortunate mens’ noses or tell them to hunt for one. This woman was brought to me by the grace of God alone. ”

    I’m not saying to gloat, and I don’t gloat that I found and married a NAWALT. What I’m saying is you can let other guys (esp young men who are family oriented) know that it’s POSSIBLE (albeit, not easy) to find and marry a NAWALT. And to have a happy family life with her.

    After all, you and I have both found a NAWALT. So other guys should be able to as well. We have proven FeminstHater is wrong when he says it’s IMPOSSIBLE to find a NAWALT.

  290. Original Laura says:

    @feeriker

    There are no guarantees with raising children, but it’s not a total crap shoot.

  291. David says:

    But find a happy medium. That’s the key to so much in life.

    This often means becoming a PUA, so that you only avail yourself of the parts of female interaction that you like, while avoiding the parts you don’t like.

    This appears to be Jeff Strand’s advice.

  292. Jim says:

    I am a respectable married lady. And before I was a respectable married lady, I was a bit of a slut.

    I’m married. I got engaged at 24 and married earlier this year at 26. Before I met my husband, I was a bit of a slut. Not as much of a slut as I wish I had been, retrospectively, but certainly not any kind of nun.

    No cunt you’re still a slut. The divorce ass raping of your cuck husband will come in time when you get “bored”.

  293. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    “you are now of an age when you will be attractive to … women whom life has passed by”

    Not true. Women in their 30s are not more attracted to men they’d previously ignored. They’re more willing to settle for such men. There’s a difference.

  294. feeriker says:

    Women in their 30s are not more attracted to men they’d previously ignored. They’re more desperate to settle for such men. There’s a difference.

    Fixed.

    Incidentally, that desperation is so powerful that a man can almost literally smell it. If only women realized this …

  295. Jeff Strand says:

    @ David: “This often means becoming a PUA, so that you only avail yourself of the parts of female interaction that you like, while avoiding the parts you don’t like. This appears to be Jeff Strand’s advice.”

    No, that’s not my advice. Perhaps I have been unclear. So let me say it straight out:

    My advice to young men who want to marry and have children (which will be the vast majority): Work hard to make something of yourself and have the financial ability to support a family. Learn some Game and confidence with women. Keep yourself in at least decent shape. Have some spiritual values. Date a bunch of different girls, to see what appeals to you and what repels you.

    But then, be very careful about whom you marry. Become redpill, be aware of the dangers women may pose to you, be aware of how the laws are stacked against you. But don’t allow yourself to be filled with bitterness. Just determine you won’t play by their rules.

    Avoid feminists, sluts, and party girls. Seek out a NAWALT (yes, they are out there) and marry her and raise a family. Take good care of your wife and kids, and assume the leadership role in the family. Let your wife defer to you in all things, and let her be your devoted, surrendered wife. Show her you love her and treasure her. Make her feel feminine, and watch as she more and more comes to respect (and even love) your dominant, masculine role in the marriage. Unapologetically take the active role in lovemaking with her, and let her feel your masculine energy and passion for her.

    Don’t treat her with disrespect like a servant, but gently point out to her from time to time that you wonder if she’s noticed that things always go best for her when she listens to her husband and does what he says, without question. Let her feel security from this, and let her feel you are her protector, her provider, her alpha.

    This is what I did, and I’ve never regretted it. And believe me, back in my “purple pill” days I got involved with plenty of the wrong kind of women…and was lucky to escape unscathed. I had false accusations made, some threatened to be made, even spent a couple days in jail as a result in one case (luckily, I took it to trial, defended myself, and got the charges dismissed). But I never gave up looking for that NAWALT, even if I didn’t know the term for it at the time. But I was smart enough to realize when I had found her, and to marry her.

    Let me be clear – I’m not saying everyone has to do what I did. Or even that everyone CAN do what I did. I’m just saying, the fact that I did it proves it can be done. “What one man can do, another can do”, as the old saying goes. I’m not Brad Pitt, nor was I born into a rich family. I’m just an average guy with a lot of ambition, drive, and common sense. Also, look at this very blog – Dalrock has been happily married for many years, so apparently he found a NAWALT as well.

    So my message to family-oriented young men is one of strong caution…but ultimately of hope.

    There you have it. You can agree or disagree, and I’d be happy to hear your opinion either way (as long as you keep it civil). But at least now you know my actual stance on this topic.

  296. Jason says:

    The vast majority of young men don’t want to marry and have children, and who can really blame them. It was bad enough in the 1990’s…..I cannot imagine the challenges a young man faces today who may have their faculties in order. Some of it is just no privacy. It’s getting to the point now that “you are not allowed to disappear” and flighting as it was when the late 1990’s were dying out….it’s so much harder to breathe in solitude today. If you do, you will not be dating anyone or anything.

    The “financial ability to support a family is really the only statement I’ll take an issue with.

    Scenario 1976: General Electric in Schenectady had reached its peak in employment. 54,000 people drove into Schenectady daily to work at the main plant which built small electric motors, steam turbines for project large and small across the world. The facility opened in 1882 under the tutelage of Thomas Edison himself. Schenectady always a small city, but it had the nickname of the city that “lights and hauls the world” (American Locomotive was the other industry in this city)

    On fine day in 1979, across New York State and the Northeast for that matter. Most industry downsized, shuttered up and closed. Moved to Mexico. Moved to “The South” or just went belly up (American Locomotive). Some people got transferred to The South. Some had enough skills to be utilized in the restructuring and downsizing. Some got picked up by other companies in the area for less pay……but stable work. Most just got laid-off. Including white collar workers (professionals)

    Before 1979 in Schenectady a man could graduate high school get hired at the General Electric, work hard, and slowly make a good living for himself. He could even move up the chain inside the company. Own a decent home. Have a vacation.

    Many of these men had families, and lost everything. Everything. Schenectady never recovered. I remember when it closed up. It was he city I was born in.

    What do you tell them? The men who lost their livelihood and everything of no fault of their own?That they should not have gotten married unless they had guarantees that they would have a job for life and the financial ability to do so?!

    What is “financial ability”? How is this defined? By IQ? By how cool you were in high school? How much “game” you have? How many women you slept with? What college or university you went to? The nice high school or the bad one across the tracks? How good looking society has deemed you at 21?

    What standard? The answer is “there is none” and “there are zero guarantees in life” for financial well being. None.

    I lived in India in 1998 for six months with IBM. I saw poverty. I saw a woman give birth in the town I lived in, they threw the placenta out the window of the mud hut after she gave birth and the jackals came to eat it. I saw poor people who were married. I saw them love hard-core on their children. They were poor, but their kids were freaking LOVED and WANTED. They had each other and a sense of honor of who they were married to. No such a thing left in the USA…….and if there is, it is indeed rare.

    Should these people been married in India because the man was poor and didn’t have the “financial ability” to support a family?

    What of the Disciples? They left their wives and jobs to follow around a man for three years and their jobs were not really financially secure. Nor is the modern farmer in the USA for that matter. It’s really hard to explain to your wife, and the bank that since the crop failed (a bad winter for example) that you can’t sell your crops and you lose your farm. Happened a lot in the USA in the early 1960’s….the time when the “small family farm for a LIVING” went belly up.

    Should these men have never married because they didn’t have the “financial ability” and skills to provide for a family?

    Your statement is very open ended and subjective. I agree with much of what you have to say…but that statement “easy” to state…and even back in the day………no man had it all figured out at 19 or 20, or 21 and had a great job. It was worked for, saved for. Built together with a wife.

  297. Nova,

    Ok, then. I don’t care what people do in the media because I don’t consider this a movement in any meaningful sense of the word, so that’s fine.

    That is where you and I greatly differ. I most certainly DO care. To me, this most certainly IS a movement in a meaningful sense of the word. I don’t just want to post here. I want to change the game. That is what I want. So we can’t have fat, ugly, comic-book-guy, beta males arguing for OUR side with the media.

  298. Novaseeker says:

    IBB —

    Good luck with that.

  299. Jason says:

    IBB, it’s not a movement. It can’t be. When you are going “your own way” so to speak, there is no one really to speak for it, nor should there be. You keep bringing up ‘Comic Book Guy’ but who is this guy?

    Where is his office and when questioned by some “media” outlet, they are going to bring him on to show the world how absurd this “lifestyle” choice is. Fact is, in most men are too busy working to give the time, and the for the most part….the ones who are……are not listened to. All channels have pretty much been shut down, and even in the church they don’t get it……they will eventually get on board, twenty years too late and claim they were at the “forefront” since day one, the pricks most of them are now………

    The reason why it’s getting so much attention is the fact that is IS working. Men are playing their final card: I don’t want to be involved with 99% of the women today romantically / marriage / children
    …and I won’t rehash the reasons why. I wish it were different. I wish it was 1963 and I was 24.

  300. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “The vast majority of young men don’t want to marry and have children”

    That is the most absurd thing I think I have ever read on the imterwebz. You are totally out to lunch on this one.

    Something like 80 to 90% of people will marry at some point in their lives. You can Google it yourself anytime.

  301. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “What is “financial ability”? How is this defined? By IQ? By how cool you were in high school? How much “game” you have? How many women you slept with? What college or university you went to? The nice high school or the bad one across the tracks? How good looking society has deemed you at 21?”

    Dude, the guy down the street is an ex-felon. And because of that, about the only job he can get is landscaping. So that’s what he does, plus handyman stuff.

    He lives in a nice house that he pays the mortgage on, and supports a young wife (who is a SAHM) and three kids, all ten and under. They have two cars. Any work that needs done on the house he does himself. For big jobs like re-roofing the place, he has his buddies help him. Sure, they have the kids in public school, the wife clips coupons, and they get some public aid and food stamps.

    But at end of the day, the guy is fully supporting a family of 5 to a pretty decent suburban level of comfort, in a house he owns that’s worth about $200k (of course it’s mortgaged), based on working lawn service and hustling some other jobs. And it seems pretty sustainable, as they’ve been in the house since 2010, back when they only had one kid.

    Stop playing the victim and looking for excuses. If you put your mind to it, you can do it. (And just think how much better my neighbor could do if he didn’t have his criminal record, and so could go into the skilled trades – like plumber, electrician, a/c tech, or welder!)

  302. What’s really funny is, church girls are harder to date than regular women off tinder or okcupid. I’ve been trying to get dates at a local huge church. The first two girls I asked gave me their numbers right away. The first I made a sort of weak excuse to ask for her number, the second I flat out said I’d like to take her to dinner.

    They both had boyfriends. And didn’t care to mention it when I asked for and got their numbers. The third girl, I asked for her number at a FRICKIN SINGLES GROUP. Then she told me over text she “was really focused on getting her life together right now and wasn’t looking for more than a friendship.”

    I used to think Rollo was a smartass, but he’s right. Church is dying out in part because the idiots don’t even know how to date. I’m back on tinder and bumble to get women who understand what a date is.

  303. Jason says:

    When you lose your job to “rightsizing” the “economy going bad” we’ll be sure to tell you the same thing “Just do it, and to put your mind to it, clip coupons, and get your buddies to help you make car payments”

    Walt Disney was dishonorably discharged from the navy and made a killing. Bill Gates was a Harvard dropout and changed the world. All the captains of industry from the turn of Victorian Age into the 20th century had little or no schooling and if they did, it was a one room schoolhouse type of thing.

    Exceptional. Should they be looked up to? Aspects of what they did? Sure. Totally but 99% of us are not that.

    The ex-felon even got a “young” wife. Wow. I should have robbed a bank when I was 25 😉

  304. imnobody00 says:

    @Novaseeker

    The next step, which come along gradually, is the idea that it is unfair for husbands to “burden” their wives with their irrational jealousies[…], rather than openly supporting this [women’s cheating] because it strengthens the marriage, makes their wives happier, and is a loving thing to do. […] And of course men’s infidelity won’t be looked at the same way because “that’s just animal lust, which any real man should be able to control, aren’t you a real man?!?!”, whereas female infidelity is about emotional growth, life satisfaction, and a journey of self-discovery and engagement

    It’s a rare occasion when one disagrees with Novaseeker. The usual thing is to agree with him or to learn from him. But this is one of these rare occasions.

    As with divorce and pre-marital sex, the thing will be marketed in a gender neutral way. That is, love is not possession, my partner being happy makes me happy, you must not be a Neanderthal, jealousy is lack of self-esteem or a pathology, and so on and so forth. Basically, polyamorous theory. If you know Spanish, you can see it in the most important newspaper from Spain https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2017/08/08/articulo/1502200244_938854.html

    The theory will be gender neutral. But of course, the practice will be a different story. Since it’s easier for women to have sex, then they will be the ones that cheat while your average guy stays at home waiting for the cheating wife to return. Of course, alphas will be able to cheat, but they are only a minority (but if the woman gets angry, here comes the divorce).

    If you think, it’s the same thing that has happened with pre-marital sex: equal in theory, different in practice. The sexual revolution was sold to the average guy with the lie he was going to have a lot of sex.

  305. Acksiom says:

    >I want to change the game. That is what I want.

    1. Vasalgel/RISUG. Do you even advocate, bro?
    2. National Parents Organization. Do you even affiliate, bro?
    3. Integration of VR pr0n/video gaming/masturbation devices. Do you even innovate, bro?

  306. melmoth says:

    Oleaginous Outrager,

    The term for calculating what a man is capable of earning and holding him to that even after the relationship is over, is called ‘imputed income,’ I believe. It would be interesting to somehow find out how many men who are about to marry would even know that imputed income exists and what it entails. It’s extraordinarily unfair.

  307. melmoth says:

    @Jeff Strand,

    Inspiring stuff. Makes me want to man up!

  308. Anon says:

    Jeff Strand,

    Seek out a NAWALT (yes, they are out there) and marry her and raise a family.

    Orienting your life around a 1% probability outcome is a poor strategy. A PUA who says they will learn Game with the goal of eventually landing a) one perfect 10, and b) one famous female celebrity so that these memories last a lifetime is a strategy with a substantially higher probability of success.

    The rest of your comment fits into the description of ‘building a better beta’. It is driven by a greed to appropriate male productivity (much like a good draft animal should not be left to idle, and instead be made to carry a heavy load).

  309. Jack Russell says:

    Mark says:
    October 6, 2017 at 1:16 am

    @Dalrock

    I had a nice chat with a writer at the G & M today.He is in the Business/Real Estate area of the paper…..
    You mentioned the size of your parent’s home last year. It would make a trip to TO worthwhile just to see that.
    What does the G&M writer think of Garth Turner. I enjoy his Greater Fool blog. In the Okanagan prices are still high and the usual everyone wants to move here etc. There is a poster on that blog called Mark. Is that you by any chance!

  310. Höllenhund says:

    To me, this most certainly IS a movement in a meaningful sense of the word. I don’t just want to post here. I want to change the game. That is what I want.

    Let’s see. If my memory is correct, you’ve states that you’ll never hire a male computer programmer as long as he’s a young American citizen, that you’ll encourage your daughters to follow the feminist script when it comes to the workplace and marriage – that is, avoid early marriage and avoid an age gap. You’re a snob, a normie, a petit bourgeois. You don’t actually want to change a thing.

  311. Höllenhund says:

    I hate to say this, but the most alpha representative of the MGTOW aspect of the manosphere, is probably Bill Maher. Bill is channeling the red pill through liberalism (which is wrong) but he did take the red pill.

    Bill Maher sometimes makes jokes about a certain type of feminist, because he’s a comedian and those dykes are easy targets even for a leftist like him. Not exactly Red Pill territory. Dude is probably a homo anyway.

  312. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I thought the American Revolution was supposed to eliminate debtor’s prison. Wasn’t that one of the Revolution’s goals?

    And yet, due to imputed income, men can be jailed for not paying child support, even if they don’t have the money (i.e., debtor’s prison).

    Of course, the judges, feminists, and tradcons all say, “It’s for the children! The interests of the child outweigh the man’s right not to suffer debtor’s prison.”

    Tradcons will even add, “If you don’t man up and support your children, you deserve prison!

    But as we all know, child support goes to the wife, not to the children.

  313. Höllenhund says:

    Unfortunately, this IS the case for much (maybe the majority) of the manosphere. A lot of them are short. A lot of them are ugly. A lot of them have never been laid. We are talking the comic book guy from the Simpsons. There are all sorts of interviews on youtube where there was a man (speaking out for OUR side) who is really ugly and massively obese. It CAN’T be these men speaking out for us.

    Your assumption is that it’s beneficial to appeal to average women in the mainstream media for a political cause that isn’t mainstream. This is false. There’s no historical precedent for this.

  314. Luke says:

    Red Pill Latecomer says:
    October 7, 2017 at 1:56 am
    “I thought the American Revolution was supposed to eliminate debtor’s prison. Wasn’t that one of the Revolution’s goals?

    And yet, due to imputed income, men can be jailed for not paying child support, even if they don’t have the money (i.e., debtor’s prison).

    Of course, the judges, feminists, and tradcons all say, “It’s for the children! The interests of the child outweigh the man’s right not to suffer debtor’s prison.”

    Tradcons will even add, “If you don’t man up and support your children, you deserve prison!

    But as we all know, child support goes to the wife, not to the children.

    This is correct. I have read that less than 20% of what frivorced men in the U.S. are compelled to pay in C.S. actually benefits their children in any way. (The children’s faithless mothers “feeling better about themselves” due to boob jobs, expensive clothing/cosmetics, foreign travel (without the kids, natch), pricey booze/food/stupid “art”, etc., do not count towards benefiting the kids in the slightest.)

  315. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “The ex-felon even got a “young” wife. Wow. I should have robbed a bank when I was 25 😉”

    Yep, she’s ten years younger than him. Was actually borderline jailbait – he was 28 and she was 18 when she had their first kid. They been together about a decade now, married for most of that time, just had their third kid.

    Guess my ex-felon of a neighbor didn’t take your advice that it’s impossible to support a family today, so why even try!

  316. Jeff Strand says:

    Anon: “Seek out a NAWALT (yes, they are out there) and marry her and raise a family. Orienting your life around a 1% probability outcome is a poor strategy. A PUA who says they will learn Game with the goal of eventually landing a) one perfect 10, and b) one famous female celebrity so that these memories last a lifetime is a strategy with a substantially higher probability of success.”

    Yeah, you’re right. Finding a NAWALT is basically impossible. Dalrock, feeriker, and myself were able to do it only because we are total studs, really super Apex Alphas. We all have the looks of Brad Pitt, the bucks of Bill Gates, the suaveness and sophistication of James Bond, and are hung like John Holmes. Women typically drop their panties at the very sight of us. Hence, why we were able to pull off the “impossible” task of finding and marrying a NAWALT.

    You on the other hand, total loser than you are, could never dream of doing such a thing. So best to not even try. Give up now and don’t even make the attempt. Cause it will never happen for you.

    Sounds like great advice to live your life by. And great advice to give to the young men out there.

  317. S.J., Esquire says:

    @Mark and Jack Russell:

    What does the G&M writer think of Garth Turner. I enjoy his Greater Fool blog

    I’m another Canadian reader of both blogs (this one and Garth’s). Surfacing in order to mention that I enjoy these Toronto anecdotes.

    Keep pushing, promoting and contributing, folks – slowly but surely the truth is getting out there.

  318. Höllenhund says:

    Dude, the guy down the street is an ex-felon. And because of that, about the only job he can get is landscaping. So that’s what he does, plus handyman stuff.

    He lives in a nice house that he pays the mortgage on, and supports a young wife (who is a SAHM) and three kids, all ten and under. They have two cars.

    There’s surely some crucial detail involved that you’re leaving out, or unaware of.

  319. Don's Johnson says:

    IBB,
    You’re getting the cause and effect mixed up. It isn’t that the manosphere is fat(no moreso than the rest of America)nerds, it’s that there is a narrative to support, and anyone that does any sort of media needs to understand this:
    the media is not there to get the truth out. There are countless examples of way higher profiled people than you misquoted, misrepresented, and generally shit upon- see Peter Thiel, James Damore, Brandon Eich, all in the name of progressive narrative. If they can libel 2 Tech titans, what do you think they can do to a nobody.
    The reason you see fat nerds is because that is the neckbeard stereotype that people have been told to expect, so when looking to interview someone, you better believe they will get the neckbeardiest guy and demolish him.

  320. feeriker says:

    I thought the American Revolution was supposed to eliminate debtor’s prison. Wasn’t that one of the Revolution’s goals?

    And yet, due to imputed income, men can be jailed for not paying child support, even if they don’t have the money (i.e., debtor’s prison).

    The American Revolution, along with the Declaration of Independence and, subsequently, the U.S. Constitution, were supposed to put an end once and for all to a whole host of evil, tyrannical practices. We can see how well that worked out.

  321. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Hollenhund: “There’s surely some crucial detail involved that you’re leaving out, or unaware of.”

    I believe he got about a $25k inheritance about 5 or 6 years ago, when a family member died. And about 3 years ago, he refinanced his house and took out about $50k in cash (I know because I looked up his new mortgage online – in my state, that’s all public record)

    But most people are capable of doing things like that. Anyway, as far as I can tell, where he really saves his money is doing all the work on the house himself, including yard work. He’s very handy. I watched him (assisted by his crew of buddies) not only put a new roof on his house, but even put an addition on it. So he was basically only paying for materials.

    It can be done. You just have to be motivated enough.

  322. Jason says:

    Well there you have it.

    *Men like myself just don’t “try” hard enough. We give up too easily.

    You may be correct in aspects of this. When I was going down the drain hard and fast post 9-11, I agree I was in no state to find, date, pursue, or even try to chase a NAWALT. My free time was spent doing drugs and drinking 23 hours of the day. So okay. I can give you that. 2001-2004 are still a blur.

    *Motivated enough. That’s a hot one. What “seminar” did you learn that word in?

    I speak another language fluently. I have led an inner city Boy Scout Troop and Cub Scout Pack for over six years with very high, and active membership. I even led six of these Scouts up Mt. Whitney, the highest peak in the lower 48 in 2013. I backpacked a 133 mile trail in the Adirondacks of New York State in June by myself in the mountains of my youth…….

    Thing is, you assume that because many of the men here don’t have a wife, or a girlfriend, or children…..that somehow……we just didn’t try hard enough. We were not motivated enough. We just “gave up” too early. We have a really bad attitude.

    Most of us would be open to the idea of marriage, and heck I was ACTIVELY looking for that as a young buck…..after I cleaned up from my addiction…….gave my life to Christ and the death of my mother…..I came to understand that the only thing you change is “you”

    Time ran out, and the only thing left to do was to serve, and find the things I liked doing for what they are, and not to worry about what ‘women think / need / expect / want in a man because in the end if you don’t have what they want………nothing will change their mind. Single women never admit they are wrong.

    It’s hard for you to understand. You assume as a man you just walk up to women and talk to them, make them giggle, and then they will be giving you a bj the next day when you call. You cannot understand the large swath of men out there who never had a shot to begin with….and it’s silly to expect you to. I will also add that women don’t owe a man a date, or a “good solid guy” doesn’t deserve a wife…..but I will say this problem is growing and its getting worse. What I get mad about is that “I” am being blamed for it. I had ZERO to with this situation the culture is in now.

    My motivation you have no idea about. Get it out of your head that every guy here is some sort of loser. We’re not.

  323. melmoth says:

    So some ex-con knows how to do some roofing and that’s supposed to get the entire manosphere to hang a U-turn and head right back to the plantation? Your ex-con buddy can do some plumbing so all of a sudden VAWA, imputed income, false allegations, AFBB, obesity, and misandry from every cultural/social/legal angle is just not an issue anymore?

    Well, you’ve been fun. Also, your oneitis for your excon neighbor reminds me of how Butthead acted when Todd came around.

  324. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Luke: The children’s faithless mothers “feeling better about themselves” due to boob jobs, expensive clothing/cosmetics, foreign travel (without the kids, natch), pricey booze/food/stupid “art”, etc., do not count towards benefiting the kids in the slightest.

    Of course, mothers will say, “How can I be a great mother if I don’t feel good about myself? Raising my self-esteem, expanding my mind through travel, growing spiritually along my life journey, all make me a better mother, and a better role model for my children.”

  325. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Melmoth,

    I never denied those issues you raised aren’t real. And yes, they are a big problem.

    But I just gave the example of my neighbor to counter someone’s statement that it’s practically impossible nowadays to support a family. If you want it bad enough, you can do it.

    Another quick example. I live in a red state, in what is basically a low cost of living area. Last time I had my home a/c system checked, it was a younger guy who came out to do it. I talked to him a bit, here is his story:

    He lived with his family in New Jersey. But he realized that with the cost of living so high there, he would never be able to afford to buy a home and support a family. So he took it upon himself, in his early 20’s, to pack up and move across the country to a low cost of living area (after doing some research, he picked my city). He didn’t know a soul here, just moved here on his own.

    When he got here, he rented a room for cheap. He took the 5 or 6 grand he had saved up (or his parents contributed) and that he had brought with him, and enrolled in our local State College/Vocational School. Two years later, he was done…and was a fully trained, certified, and state licensed apprentice a/c technician.

    He told me the a/c company he works for now hired him right out of school. He’s very happy in his work, said he loves how you’re always learning, there’s always new technology to master, new certifications to get, etc. I asked him about money – he said he’s making like $30k pretty much right away, guys with 3 to 5 years experience pull in $50k and can do $75k “if they really want to work”. (This is VERY good income in my low cost of living area, where a decent 2 bdrm 2 ba condo can be purchased for about $65k). He even said six figures is very possible down the road. Plus, once he has 3 years experience, he can get a job almost anywhere…so he’s free to move if he wants.

    At this point, still in his mid 20’s, he’s ready to find a wife, get married, and start a family. And he has the capacity to take care of them. You see, he was motivated. He didn’t sit back and cry “It’s impossible to support a family today unless you’re born rich or handed an Ivy League education”. Instead, he got off his ass and made it happen.

    Now because those issues you mentioned ARE real, I hope this guy will take the red pill so he will know to avoid sluts, feminists, party girls, etc. Hopefully he’ll be smart enough to seek out a NAWALT, wife her up, and settle down to enjoy the benefits of family life. Time will tell. But he’s definitely on the right track so far!

    Now I ask you, would he have been better off to have just given up…as so many commenters on here seem to recommend? No way. And I think to myself, that’s the kind of guy I hope my daughters (that my wife and I are deliberately raising to be NAWALT’s) will marry. A motivated go-getter who takes the initiative and gets schit done. A guy who DESERVES a NAWALT.

    Again, all the above is just my opinion. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it really is hopeless, and no guy should even make an effort, or even attempt to find and marry a NAWALT, support a family, or any of that. Maybe the best thing is just to sit around stewing about how only super Apex Alphas with fat wallets and huge cocks can pull that off, and so on.

    But I don’t think so. As always, YMMV.

  326. Oscar says:

    Hey, it CAN be done.

  327. Jason says:

    Looking through the comments, not one man here has said you cannot support a family unless you are born rich or have an “ivy league education”

    Don’t put words in the mouth that were never spoken.

  328. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “Thing is, you assume that because many of the men here don’t have a wife, or a girlfriend, or children…..that somehow……we just didn’t try hard enough. We were not motivated enough. We just “gave up” too early. We have a really bad attitude.”

    Look, I’m not saying it will work for everyone. And if you’ll recall, you will note I specifically said I wasn’t calling you a loser or criticizing you – I don’t know you, your history, your circumstances, etc. Maybe you had a run of bad luck. It can happen.

    All I’m saying is that NAWALT’s exist (I know this from personal experience), and I think it’s a mistake to counsel young men that it will prove impossible to find one…so they shouldn’t even try. That’s a very demoralizing, destructive message to send – you’re not leaving any room for hope! And as I said, the message itself is just plain false, as I and many other happily married men (including the owner of this blog) can attest.

    By all means, young men should take the red pill. They should know how the laws are stacked against them. They should know the signs that indicate a girl is not wife material. They should go into it with their eyes open. In the end, of course, it’s still a gamble – but so is everything in life. All you can do is arrange it so you have the most odds in your favor. After all, most men are going to marry anyway.

    P.S. This message I’m talking about is for your average guys, who will date girls in their young adulthood, have girlfriends, and (the vast majority) will marry at some point. I’m not addressing the denizens of the manosphere who claim it’s impossible for them to ever get a girl to even date them (even though they claim they are average looking, not morbidly obese, and have moderate social skills). IMHO, guys like that have something wrong with them. But at any rate, by their own claims they are a lost cause and destined to be incel’s their whole life….so my message will have no impact on them or meaning for them. They don’t have to worry about any of these issues, they can just argue with each other about what is the best new video game or porn website.

  329. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “Looking through the comments, not one man here has said you cannot support a family unless you are born rich or have an “ivy league education”

    My remark was exaggerated for effect. But I stand by it, as I hear all the time the claim that “nowadays it’s practically impossible to support a family on one income, so the wife can be a SAHM”.

    I hear this ALL THE TIME. I’m just pointing out it’s not true. But you have to have the motivation and the drive.

  330. feministhater says:

    Jeff, no one cares. You argue like a passive aggressive little bitch. Exactly like any other ordinary woman that has ever argued here. Little insults here and there, trying to create drama, peppered with shaming language from a self-confessed serial cheater who says he found a NAWALT… who refuses to understand that not everyone is like them. Men here are not interested in returning to your plantation. Leave well enough alone.

    A NAWALT might exists but for the majority of men they do not. That is all that is required to teach men to rather look after their own interests and forget about finding one. That is reality, hard pill for a ‘lil bitch like you to swallow. Why don’t you just go and cheat on your NAWALT again, since you like sex with women so much. No one thinks you’re alpha, just a lying philanderer.

  331. Jeff Strand says:

    @ FeministHater: “No one thinks you’re alpha”

    Good, because I’m not an alpha and never claimed to be one. (The remarks about being a “super Apex Alpha” were clearly sarcasm, ripping on the idea that you would have to be one in order to marry a NAWALT)

    Several posts back, I clearly said I was a greater beta.

    @ FemistHater; “Why don’t you just go and cheat on your NAWALT again”

    And why don’t you pull up some internet porn and make love to your girlfriend again? And by “girlfriend” I mean your right hand. Unless of course, you’ve actually invested in a Real Doll.

  332. melmoth says:

    Your vocational buddy making 30k a year isn’t going to land the NAWALT unicorn unless he looks like Fabio. He’ll marry a fat girl and we all know it. No one cares. No one wants that life.

    I think you’re missing the point entirely, btw. None of us are whining about life from our laptops in some tent city somewhere. A tent city with free wi-fi, mind you.

    Most guys here are making it. Unlike you, we’ve moved on to the stage of;

    “Why should we?”

    What’s the incentive? We already know that if we bust our tails for 50-70 hours a week and also work up a solid ‘side hustle’ to boot, that we can ‘make it’ and then some dead-bed 170 pound ingrate can live better than royalty lived only 50-60 years ago, all things considered, all while she has the free time to research/ponder the very most optimal time for her to file papers. But no one really cares anymore. Some of us are sick of the burden of performance for a few years of NAWALT before AWALT kicks in. And that’s for the extremely lucky, anyway. We’re supposed to get starry-eyed over some guy who makes 30k a year?

    If you’re trolling then it’s pure genius btw.

  333. feministhater says:

    Yeah, you’re right. Finding a NAWALT is basically impossible. Dalrock, feeriker, and myself were able to do it only because we are total studs, really super Apex Alphas. We all have the looks of Brad Pitt, the bucks of Bill Gates, the suaveness and sophistication of James Bond, and are hung like John Holmes. Women typically drop their panties at the very sight of us. Hence, why we were able to pull off the “impossible” task of finding and marrying a NAWALT.

    Three men versus many others. For every one NAWALT you guys find, 10 other men must go without. Numbers don’t lie. There is not enough to go around. Guys here don’t find it appealing to spend more of our lives trying to find something that doesn’t exist. Our interests and time are spent better elsewhere. Accept it, stop moaning that others won’t do what you did and stop telling others how to live their lives. Just live your life, stop cheating and leave the rest of us well enough alone. We don’t care about your rationalizations, it is of little consequence.

    You’re a nag.

  334. Jason says:

    No man on this blog has ever argued, discussed, explained the newest video game or porn website. Stop behaving like this! Your cocky-arrogance is really not helping your case.

    The vast majority of men today coming up will not marry. The trends and facts show this in demographics in the USA, western Europe, Australia, Israel, Japan and a large swath of China.

    NAWALT’s exist but they don’t date the guy who mows the lawn. They don’t marry the man who runs the soup kitchen at the local Salvation Army. They don’t settle down with the man who is in journeyman school and will be broke until he is thirty. They don’t go for the man who leads a Boy Scout Troop.

    Once a man, in my case…….and about 20% of GenX men fall into this category. Very high amount considering how small numbers-wise my generation is………hits the age of forty he has more of a chance of being struck by lightening than ever getting married.

    That is a reality one has to deal with. You pick up and move on. You build your career the best you can. You stay active. You stay well read. You stay in a frame of mind that will help the loneliness which even hits the most ardent and strongest loners at times. You understand that your loneliness isn’t a bad or ignoble thing. You deal with it. You also understand that the much of the hostility of you being single will come from other men. I see this in the church.

    I have never once cursed women, or have begged they date me because I am such an awesome catch. I have never once since my sobriety and walk with Christ expected a girlfriend. I live in the reality of:

    You are over forty. Your hair is gray. Your don’t own a home, you don’t own three cars, nor a vacation home, and you don’t have ten thousand sexual conquests to brag about. You have nothing that a woman my age bracket wants, or needs. You don’t have a messy past divorce, or children from the “lyin’ ex-girlfriend” to deal with or relate to a woman with who is a single mother. You were never a ladies man. You were just a guy in a situation. You were dealt this hand. Deal with it. Make do.

    I did. I have, and life isn’t bad. I have a job, trust again. My sobriety. I get along very well with my co-workers. I have zero drama or issues at work. I like my hobbies. I like living in close proximity to Yosemite National Forest. I love the beauty of my adopted state of California. I have a solid faith and prayer life.

    Most men in my situation have much to be grateful for. You don’t seem to understand this

  335. feministhater says:

    I did. I have, and life isn’t bad. I have a job, trust again. My sobriety. I get along very well with my co-workers. I have zero drama or issues at work. I like my hobbies. I like living in close proximity to Yosemite National Forest. I love the beauty of my adopted state of California. I have a solid faith and prayer life.

    Most men in my situation have much to be grateful for. You don’t seem to understand this.

    Stop responding in kind to him, he’s here to try and goad you. Just keep telling him to go play in traffic.

  336. feministhater says:

    And why don’t you pull up some internet porn and make love to your girlfriend again? And by “girlfriend” I mean your right hand. Unless of course, you’ve actually invested in a Real Doll.

    Wow! Another lowbrow insult! Try harder. My right hand is more faithful than you. You really need to work on that.

  337. Embracing Reality says:

    The problem with NAWALT is you can never know for sure if you have one, Never. Sure, everything seems cool with her now. She’s been loyal the last 20 years you say? Fantastic! A tenant of mine lost everything around 60 years of age to the wife he married at 20. She got hold of nearly everything after the divorce, pissed it all away. Later she blamed the whole experience on “mental problems”.. They’re back together now last I heard.

    NAWALT or AWALT? Doesn’t matter as much as the real problem in this country, the legal system and the church. Tolerance for women who frivolously divorce adequate husbands and the sadistic tendency to punish those ex husbands unfairly. To quote Paul Elam from A Voice For Men regarding NAWALT:

    “All family courts are the same”

  338. Otto Lamp says:

    NAWALT = Not All Women Are Like That

    NALTAL = Not All Lottery Tickets Are Losers

  339. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Jason: “The vast majority of men coming up today will not marry.”

    You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. You are just wrong.

    Check this article by Time Magazine:
    http://time.com/3422624/report-millennials-marriage/

    It’s three years old, the most recent I can find. It notes that marriage rates are indeed falling and age at first marriage keeps increasing. But even with all that, the figures cited show that 75% of all Millennials will marry at some point. And for whites, the figures must be even higher – blacks are so much more likely to never marry that they skew the data.

    So keeping in mind Dalrock’s readership is almost certainly mostly white, if we confine ourselves to white Millennials we can estimate that about 80% will marry. That leaves 20% who will not marry. Yet you say “the vast majority” will not marry! Really? One out five is a “vast majority”?

    Now if you are not just wrong here, but so amazingly, drastically wrong….maybe you should consider that you may be wrong on some of your other assumptions? Just sayin’

  340. Embracing Reality says:

    Good comparison but at least the numbers on a winning lottery ticket aren’t going to change spontaneously over feels.

  341. Höllenhund says:

    @Jeff

    Does this ex-felon live in some isolated rural area?

  342. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Embracing Realty,

    So tell Dalrock and “The Other McCain” that they never should have married and had a family. Because their wives could screw them over tomorrow. Therefore, they should have chosen to live alone their whole life…and if they had it to do over, that’s what they should have done.

    See if they agree with you. Or are they just sell-outs and suck-ups to the “man up and marry that slut” crowd?

  343. Embracing Reality says:

    Lots of millennial men will marry. Most will either end up divorced or in lousy marriages. That’s not wining.

  344. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Hollenhund: “Does this ex-felon live in some isolated rural area?”

    Nope, we live in a suburban area on a residential street of single family homes. Some families, but also a lot of retirees. Most houses in my neighborhood are in the ballpark of $200k to $250k right now.

  345. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Embraving Reality: “Lots of millennial men will marry. Most will either end up divorced or in lousy marriages. That’s not wining.”

    That’s not what Jason said. He said “the vast majority” of young men will not marry. And that’s not just false, it’s actually the opposite of the truth.

  346. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Jeff Strand,

    I’ve stated on this blog before that men like Dalrock, others, who married and are satisfied are gamblers with nerves of steel. I’m pulling for them, I pray they continue to Win! I’m not however advising young men to take the chance in a system that’s rigged against them.

    Men should not have to take the risks they’re presently required to take to marry. The risks are abusive, unjust, ridiculous. Dalrock knows this, he took his chances and won. He still has the corrupt system hanging over his head with the button in his wife’s hands. He will be fine, probably. Doesn’t change the harsh truth that the risks are incredibly high and shouldn’t be.

  347. Jason says:

    @FH

    Telling him to “go play in traffic” won’t solve anything. He brings up some valid points, but he is mistaking this blog for an “incel support group”

    The men who post frequently here and read are not a sad lot of “comic book guys”

    Many are married. Many are single. Some have had success with women. Many have not. What all men understand for the most part here is that in the Christian faith, we are at an apex and calling point about the future of the church and faith……..along with all the social and cultural aspects of it. Much of this has to do with women.

    As for men who post on this blog like myself who have been lifelong singles, and virgins…what Jeff cannot grasp is that these men exist, and if they do……it’s because they are bald, and short (something they cannot help btw…..all the motivation in the world won’t make a shorter man tall).

    He assumes we’re all a version of comic book guy…..and even comic book guy got with “Mrs. Crabbable” (Bart’s 4th grade teacher). He cannot understand the situation a single Christian man who not only reads the Word of God…..but believes it……and the “stuck” many find themselves in. The replies about philosophy, The Word, history, life, and situations we have all been in fully demonstrate that the men here for the most part on this blog are:

    Well rounded. Articulate. Various levels of skills and education. Have a life. Have had a multi-faceted life and experiences. Various ages too.

    Many of the married men on this blog, Scott being the first that comes to mind actually have been supportive……..and not enabling to my situation. I don’t know him personally, but his replies have never once looked down upon me because I am single, child-free man and never have found someone.

    We all have something to learn here, but a unifying bond in Christ……..and a factual, realization that much of what we are going through was not of our creation or fault. It doesn’t mean we are sin-free. It means there is a serious problem here that was not caused by any solo action of our own doing.

  348. Embracing Reality says:

    Yep, technically Jason is probably wrong about most young men not marrying. Most will and that’s a shame because most will be worse off because of it. Do your research on future divorce predictions and unhappy marriages. Very risky.

    I can easily marry but probably won’t. I don’t have risk tolerance that high.

  349. Jason says:

    Time magazine also predicted a comfortable Hillary Clinton win………

    I’m not wrong here. Most men will not marry. They may “want” to, but the reality when it sinks in at 30, 32, 35 that the women who want to marry really won’t be worth their time, and the women for the most part will expect perfection and will be well past that themselves.

    My career and position at IBM was a HF Specialist (human factors) and UCD (user centered design) specialist. It was a glorified tech-writer position. Lots of testing, stats, interviews, writing, schema, and design of manuals, soft copy up on the glass, of how people interact with “help” or “manuals” and other mediums to interact with a computer system to get it to do what you wanted or expected the software to do. The “polls” of what customers (internal and external) wanted versus the reality was stark. All the interviews said one thing, the numbers in the end explained the truth and reality.

    In 1992 when I was college, the stats all said that divorce would decline with my generation, and all the studies and polls said this…..it actually increased.

    You have almost a percentage pushing 60% of the 19-35 age group that has never been married. Give it five years. I won’t be wrong.

  350. melmoth says:

    “The Other McCain” is a ‘do it my way or you’re flawed’ trad-con. He inspires no envy in me whatsoever, and vice versa I’m sure. Not everyone here cares about the trad-con life narrative anymore, and we’re entitled to seek out our own narratives whatever they may be. The trad-con 50 year marriage model doesn’t appeal to me at all. To me, it would be at best…AT BEST…a sedate, low-T life of a decent amount of satisfaction over having sacrificed a lot for a matching amount of gratitude in return, plus a lot of warm moments as a father/grandfather. One smidgen less than that, and it’s not a deal I accept. Not even close. Most guys get far, far less in return and are well off into the realm of having had their lives ruined in return for sacrifice. Think of that; their lives ruined in return for a sacrifice on their part. Imagine setting aside your Saturday to volunteer at the Red Cross and getting harangued and belittled by your co-workers for being boring and nice, while having to pay well for that privilege.

  351. Mark says:

    @Jack Russel & Esquire

    I am sorry but I have never heard of Garth Turner or read his blog.I will take a look.So no it is not me that is posting there.You mention the Okanagan area….as in BC? I am not really familiar with BC real estate.I do know that it is more expensive than Toronto real estate and therefore the most over priced in the country.I personally do not like BC and would never live there.WAY too NDP for me…..your politicians are commies.I have dealt with BC securities and the Vancouver Stock Exchange.They do not like me.They have tried bringing me up on Insider Trading and Securities Fraud charges 3 times…..and 3 times they had NOTHING! They are a left wing gestapo organization.I am barred for life from trading on the VSX. If you are not familiar with Toronto the Rosedale area is probably the most exclusive in Canada.Unless you are willing to spend at least 5 million for a home it is a waste of your time.If I was going to move to another major city it would be Montreal.

  352. Jeff Strand says:

    @ Embracing Reality,

    Regarding your post at 12:28 pm. I actually agree with most of what you say. The system IS biased against husbands and fathers. The laws SHOULD be changed. Nowadays, MOST women are NOT marriage material. Marriage IS a risk. And so on.

    Not surprising we agree on so many points. After all, I too am red pill. That’s why I’m here.

    I think we just differ on the message that we should be sending to the young men coming up today. We both agree they should be redpilled and be aware of these truths, and the dangers they face. But you think with that in mind, they should be encouraged to give up hope when it comes to marriage and family life. They should write off the joy of children (and later, grandchildren). They should deliberately arrange things so they stay alone and single their whole lives.

    I disagree with that. Firstly, because it’s totally unrealistic and goes sgainst human nature. As I pointed out to Jason, the vast majority of men will marry and start families. Deep down they feel “it is not good for man to be alone”.

    Secondly, it’s not fair to take all hope from them. Why shouldn’t they aspire to happy marriages and families…like mine, Dalrock’s, Robert Stacy McCain’s, feerikers, etc. I mean, just today I was talking to a guy at work…his wife, now in her early 40’s, is pregnant with their NINTH child. She has been a SAHM and traditional wife his whole marriage. He is the head of the household and she is his NAWALT. It happens much more than you think.

    Of course nothing can be guaranteed. Of course, everything in life is a gamble. But it seems to me we should be educating these young men, i.e. “Redpilling” them, so they they will make better choices when they choose a mate, thus increasing their odds of succes. If we can get more and more young men to shun the sluts and feminists – leaving those bitches to become mentally unstable old maids surrounded by their cats – isn’t that a huge win? What is the purpose in telling young men that ALL women are whores, and they shouldn’t marry or reproduce? To hand the whole world over to the Chinese and the Muslims?

    This is where we disagree.

    P.S. We should also help the next generation by educating young men, if they’re blessed with daughters, to raise those girls to be NAWALT’s and anti-feminists, which is what I’m doing. Anyone can gripe – try to be a part of the solution!

  353. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Jason,

    You may be right, it’s hard to predict the future but there are some good indicators. Japan, MGTOW growing in the US. Highly educated career gals, sluts or otherwise, won’t settle for men the available to them. Hard to say, like the stock market. I take calculated risks in the later, sometimes I win sometimes I lose. Marriage is like betting it all on one ordinary stock. Very risky!

    I wish marriage was more like a mutual fund ..

    There is one factor in play we can’t rule out. Divorce laws and outcomes could change. Supposedly the courts in some jurisdictions are changing for the better. If it doesn’t become nearly nation wide and publicly known it won’t matter though. The reputation of the family courts, like the reputation of the western slut, is thoroughly soiled. I’m not buying a stock like that.

  354. Mark says:

    @Jack Russell

    Sorry,I do know who Garth Turner is.I have read some of his articles in the G&M….and remember him in politics.I just figured that he was a guy using that name as a “nom de plume”.I have never met him.he seems like someone that I would like to meet.He is one of the more “business savvy” politicians that is for sure.

  355. melmoth says:

    Jeff Strand,

    Jason is not wrong. You guys are talking about future projections so why are you presenting that as fact? His prediction might prove wrong or vice versa. Wait and see.

    I see NOTHING in the culture now that would induce males into marriage outside of psychological relics from previous eras. They have far more information than we ever had about a group of females that are far fatter, far more entitled and far more feral. These guys have never even seen females in a feminine light. They have been second fiddle to females from preschool onwards and likely have no sense of wonder about females at all. Unlike the 40 and overs, they haven’t even been given the chance to have illusions about women like we did. Females are their adversaries from early childhood. I’ve seen grandmothers shout “Girl Power” in their humiliated, bewildered 9 year old grandson’s face when the granddaughter pulled in a few sunfish before the boy caught any while on an afternoon lake fishing session. Nothing could disillusion and anger someone as well as having an adversary that is given all the advantages. They’ve seen about 800,000 pairs of breasts online by the time they’re 22 so the mystique is not there as it was for us. A lot of them regard young women as complete jerks. The 80-20 mating marker might also creep up to 85-15 or 90-10 as well, so there will be a lot of pushback there also. Many will have brains that develop around digital sexuality too. Who knows what that will do to them? I would be hard to pedestalize some idiot who raged at the pussyhat march. Without the pedestalization and trad-con pie in the sky schemas plus the obesity, then there is just almost nothing there. Without even factoring in the risk and sacrifice, there is still almost nothing being offered.

    Team Jason

  356. melmoth says:

    “What is the purpose in telling young men that ALL women are whores, and they shouldn’t marry or reproduce?”

    Because it’s very nearly 100% accurate and they should know the truth of what is around them. Then they can decide for themselves. But it’s inhumane to trick another human being into a life of servitude and humiliation by enticing them with a false narrative. It’s even unfair to do that to white males. Even them. That’s how unfair that is. Even white males shouldn’t be treated like that.

  357. Jason says:

    @ jeff

    for many years, and a long time. there was nothing deliberate about wanting to be single.

  358. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Jeff Strand,

    I don’t think you quite get it, Brother. The “hope” and all that jazz.. The west, the church, decent society, we’ve lost it Man. It’s going away, in a few decades it will be gone. Personally I think the end game is on the ground, as in the end of days. I don’t know how it’s all going to play out or when but it’s not going to be pretty. This will not end well. We never, ever should have let women take over. Never should have let that happen.

    I’m thinking about going rural, self sustaining, locked and loaded. Seem crazy? Not if you’re a student of history. 1930s Europe was modern, civilized, relatively comfortable like us. In the mid 1940s life had devolved to the point that dead human flesh, offered for consumption by the living, was sold semi-openly in the streets in some places in Europe. This was after the had already eaten all the pets. There are people alive right now who can still remember that! This could never happen in Godless America, right?

    Study your history. The socialist Nazi party was very popular with women, they loved Hitler! It’s why he remained single in the public eye. Feminism brought the sexual revolution. Stupid men traded control for easy sex. That was the pay off that will be our collective demise. Never should have let that happen.

    Meanwhile I’m living a comfortable, successful life , not looking for extra hassle without rewards. Hope? It’s in Christ and eternity not a demanding wife and some brats.

    ‘Hope’ I die before I get old.

  359. Embracing Reality says:

    Team Jason, here.

  360. Jason says:

    I remember the headline in my local rag (The Fresno bee, the (cough) ‘voice of the valley’) when single people outnumbered married people in the USA. It was big news….to pastors, tradcons, the old golfer check-pants-wearing republican types and married clueless people…….but to us who were single and the few married folks who do have a pulse on the times and culture we are indeed in……It wasn’t any surprise.

    People in Internet-land were perplexed by this. Any man who dared speak up about divorce laws online being a possible cause, or opened his mouth in church about the “sky-high standards of Christian women today”

    They were poo-pooed. Shamed. Told to “man up” and labeled “comic book guy” or “peter pan” or worse four letter words by countless ‘tweets’ from modern-independent women. Christian books and blogs wanted us to “man up”

    Every man who appears on a national news show who calmly tries to explain this issue is not listened to, is shut down passive-aggressively by the women on the program and the “alpha male” newscaster.

    It’s still growing, and I am not for this, or “wishing” it will happen…….but the reality is that most men will not marry.

  361. feeriker says:

    But even with all that, the figures cited show that 75% of all Millennials will marry at some point.

    What those figures certainly DO NOT say is that 90-plus percent of those same Millennials will also be divorced within a decade of marrying. What. pray tell, is the point?

  362. feeriker says:

    So tell Dalrock and “The Other McCain” that they never should have married and had a family. Because their wives could screw them over tomorrow. Therefore, they should have chosen to live alone their whole life…and if they had it to do over, that’s what they should have done.

    As others here have stated (ad nauseum), Dalrock and RSM knew the risks when they tied the knot. They are also under no illusions whatsoever that, however perfectly NAWALTy their own wives and however vastly unlikely the possibility of a negative outcome, the Divorce Sword of Damocles still hangs over their heads – as it does over the head of EVERY married man in North America, no matter what unicorn he’s managed to snag.

    These two men, like many of us, did a very careful risk assessment before committing and found that the rewards in their cases, with their particular women, outweighed the risks. Very few men can say that they’ve been able to attain this result. For those who have, there is every reason to move forward and marry. But again – THESE ARE THE OUTLIERS, THE RARE EXCEPTIONS, NOT THE RULE.

    Once again: apex fallacy, pal. What works for a rare handful of men DOES NOT work for the majority. Learn it and move on.

  363. Jason says:

    Embracing Reality:

    While I was on my backpacking trek…..on day nine or ten out in the forest, still fifty miles out of Lake Placid, and 35 til the trail crossed the next Adirondack hamlet….

    I too played a fantasy of “getting out of center city, and going rogue up the sticks…back to where I grew up. Finding solace in streams, vales, vlys and mountains…..”

    I could stay a month in the woods deep…..but I too would have to come out, and deal with reality…..trade, buy fuel…..that kind of thing and as much as I like a snapping campfire alone in His deep creation……keeping that fire going takes a ton of work, and imagine surviving the winter!

    I do plan to probably “go deeper east” in Califonia sooner than later (into a small hamlet or town in the Sierra-Nevadas) but I get where you are coming from!

  364. Gunner Q says:

    Jason @ 2:08 pm:
    “I do plan to probably “go deeper east” in Califonia sooner than later (into a small hamlet or town in the Sierra-Nevadas)”

    That sounds like fun. Are you planning a ski trip or something? I love the snow but it’s hell getting friends and family to take a vacation.

  365. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Jason,

    I thought about Oregon, Washington, Utah, Wyoming in the rurals. Will probably be the Ozarks. I wouldn’t go all Rambo, just some acres, maybe a small farm. I would do business with the world as long as I could. Just away from the city and the worst of the possible collapse in my lifetime. Being rural wouldn’t make me bullet proof but the further away from the zombies the better. There are rural Christian communities but they’re not without the problems of human nature. Laziness, greed, control freaks and so on.

    Looking for needles rumored to be in the haystack is getting old.

  366. Jason says:

    Gunner Q. To hike and camp? YES! The long term plan is to MOVE to a small town in the Sierra’s. I could land wage-slave work in a pizza joint, gas station because my needs are indeed minimal, no debt and I have a good chunk of change for retirement that is growing….albeit slowly, but growing. If I had a skill like welding, brazing I would probably move as soon as possible. I am good with engines pre-1974 and that kind of work is dwindling. The V-8’s of my boyhood and teenage years are almost gone. The life in California’s Sierra’s is mostly seasonal work (ski resort, golf resort, the support industries to the camping / outdoor / summer camp kind of thing. Lumbering is gone or very small……..it’s niche industries and several jobs people use to get by. There needs tend to be simple, and one thing about mountain country in California. It’s wild, rugged, individualistic and solitary. Kind of my direction at this point.

    Embracing Reality. Needles in haystacks (concerning women) at our age “the children of 1970” 🙂
    really isn’t worth looking for. We could “bump” into one, but more than unlikely. We could meet one, but then as Christians our hobbies would be deemed “peter pan like” and “for boys” (like camping or any other activity that is actually worthwhile) and they would have to go to please and appease the “most precious daughter of the King” 🙂

  367. Mark says:

    @Jack Russell & Esquire

    I almost forgot……..”Happy Thanksgiving” to my fellow Canucks!

  368. Otto Lamp says:

    …the figures cited show that 75% of all Millennials will marry at some point.

    The red-pill awakening & MGTOW are less than 10 years old. We haven’t even covered one generation of men with this info. How it will affect men and marriage rates in the future is completely unknown.

    It’s like trying to predict future sailing ship trends in 1493 based on historical models.

  369. Jeff Strand says:

    Gentlemen,

    I think we’ve beat this horse to death. We’re clearly not going to change each other’s minds. Those of you who have chosen to remain alone, I wish you well with that and hope it pans out for you and brings you happiness. As I’m sure you would wish the same for me in the different path that I’ve chosen.

    Cheers.

  370. feeriker says:

    Needles in haystacks (concerning women) at our age “the children of 1970” 🙂
    really isn’t worth looking for. We could “bump” into one, but more than unlikely. We could meet one, but then as Christians our hobbies would be deemed “peter pan like” and “for boys” (like camping or any other activity that is actually worthwhile) and they would have to go to please and appease the “most precious daughter of the King” 🙂

    What the little Princesses of the King and their solipsistic, world-worshiping, pedestalizing daddies don’t realize is that in the very near future, when TSHTF and things once taken for granted are no longer available except to those willing to use lethal violence to take them from someone else, guys with experience in survival skills (which camping, hiking, scoutmastering, etc. teach and put into practice) and farming are going to be the new Fuckbuddy Rockdrummers, Harley McBadboys to whom desperate women are going to be flocking for protection (see here for the reference).

    Too bad that most such men by that time will want nothing whatsoever to do with the suddenly repentant skanks who for so long mocked and rejected them. In fact, I’m betting said skanks will probably prefer violent sudden death at the hands of a barbaric mob over the conditions that the male remnant would impose on them in exchange for long-term protection.

  371. Anon says:

    Jeff Strand squeaked,

    You on the other hand, total loser than you are, could never dream of doing such a thing. So best to not even try. Give up now and don’t even make the attempt. Cause it will never happen for you.

    Again, orienting your life around strategy with a 1% probability of success, is unwise.

    Plus, I don’t think you understand percentages. Your comments seem to avoid hard numbers, out of fear of them.

    Lastly, I am beginning to question whether your wife is really that great. More likely, your wife goggles are so immense and you are so grateful to have ANY woman, that you think your woman is the complete apex. This now appears unlikely.

    The more you comment, the more you become indistinguishable from Brad Wilcucks and Jim Gay-ratty, who demand that men marry just so that they can greedily keep men controlled and producing output for women to consume.

  372. Anon says:

    Jeff Strand,

    So tell Dalrock and “The Other McCain” that they never should have married and had a family.

    Epic fail.

    Dalrock has a lengthy checklist of what a man should look for in a wife, and fully recognizes that this will filter out the vast majority of women. While he supports marriage, he recognizes how improbable it is to find a unicorn.

    The Other McCain is just a trad-con. He is not fully red-pill. He bashes lefty feminists very well, but is still under the misconception that women who vote Republican are ‘strongly against ‘feminism”. He has only minimal awareness of how rigged against men the divorce laws are. His demolition of blue-haired fembeasts is great, but frankly that is the easiest possible target. Remember that he lives in a small town and has six kids, so really does not have any direct experience with big-city dynamics.

  373. Anon says:

    What is funny about Jeff Strand is that he is just another example of ‘Man up and marry’, and he is driven by greed, not fear.

  374. melmoth says:

    @Strand,

    Who’s choosing to remain alone? Choosing against the legislated misandry is not necessarily ‘alone’. Check in on me any given Saturday night when I’m overseas. See if I’m alone. You and oneitis with cellulitis will both have headaches that night, I’m sure. I don’t get many headaches in Prague.

  375. Anon says:

    melmoth,

    That is a good point. It seems Jeff Strand is unaware that single women have a lot of sex before marriage. His binary tradconism equates a legislated misandry contract as the only way to have sex.

    At the other extreme, Brad Wilcucks thinks that every single guy is ‘six pack Craig’. Well, compared to Wilcucks, they may be.

    Look the lengths that these fools will go to in order to avoid facing the truth about female moral inferiority.

  376. feeriker says:

    Check in on me any given Saturday night when I’m overseas. See if I’m alone. You and oneitis with cellulitis will both have headaches that night, I’m sure. I don’t get many headaches in Prague.

    Amoricon tradcucks like Jeff can’t comprehend the concept of foreign women. It would be hilarious to watch one of them give it go, though…

  377. feeriker says:

    At the other extreme, Brad Wilcucks thinks that every single guy is ‘six pack Craig’. Well, compared to Wilcucks, they may be.

    Somebody really should’ve ensured that NO photo of Brad ever saw the light of day on the internet. The one that’s out there now that we see most frequently just screams “if you really consider THIS GUY to be an expert on marriage whose advice you would follow, then you are the very epitome of the word L-O-S-E-R and deserve to be all alone.”

    Yes, guys, sometimes a picture is indeed worth a thousand words (or more).

  378. Gunner Q says:

    Jason @ 3:21 pm:
    “Gunner Q. To hike and camp? YES! The long term plan is to MOVE to a small town in the Sierra’s.”

    Oh, not really a vacation thing. I think you would like Angel’s Camp. It’s got that “tiny city gateway to nowhere” vibe.

  379. Embracing Reality says:

    In fairness, Jeff Strand made it clear that decent women were rare, NAWALT. He thinks the search for a worthy woman is worthwhile. wilcucks seems to think nearly all women are worthy.

    Either way, selling marriage around here is a waste of time.

  380. S.J., Esquire says:

    @Mark:

    If you are not familiar with Toronto the Rosedale area is probably the most exclusive in Canada.

    FWIW, one of the things I enjoy about your contributions is that you are coming from a Toronto perspective, since I lived in rural Ontario for several years and can only take Toronto in small doses. I’ve been accustomed to the idea that men who want traditionalist families are going to be the sorts that want to live in small communities, but reality is that power centres are in big cities and so that’s where change has to happen.

  381. Mark says:

    @Esquire

    “”I lived in rural Ontario for several years and can only take Toronto in small doses. I’ve been accustomed to the idea that men who want traditionalist families are going to be the sorts that want to live in small communities,””

    You are 100% correct my friend.I now live in the Mississauga area now.I am on Bay St. every day of the week.As much as I like the BIG city I love to get away from it also.My g/f who is from “Bumf****” West Virginia(she is here for the weekend) was in total awe when she first came here to visit.The concrete,steel and glass of Toronto is something that she had never seen.Likewise,for myself when I go to WVA it is totally foreign to me.Today I took her for a drive in “my baby” down to the Niagara Falls region.Took her all through the “fruit belt” area of the countryside.She loved this.She could live there in a heartbeat as could I.There is lots I do not like about Toronto though.The number of foreigners for starters…..walk into a Tim Hortons and order a coffee…..good luck with someone that speaks English! You mention that you lived in “rural Ontario”?…..may I inquire to the area that you lived?

  382. Jack Russell says:

    Mark says:
    October 7, 2017 at 3:24 pm

    @Jack Russell & Esquire

    I almost forgot……..”Happy Thanksgiving” to my fellow Canucks!

    Same to you and the rest of the Canadian readers.

  383. safespaceplaypen says:

    lol @Jeff Strand is out of touch with most guys. he can’t fathom things being tough for men to meet women. Now he’s trying to posture himself as a bad@ss in order to compensate for his self-admission to everyone that he in fact has no problem with other men pounding his wife.

    Can anyone really trust the words of a self-admitted NAWALT cuck lol?

  384. sec amend says:

    Them:
    But… but… you are X times more likely to have your own gun used against you than to use it for protection.
    Me:
    If you are concerned you might kill yourself or be killed by your spouse, maybe me having a gun is not your biggest problem. Let’s discuss this again when you get your issue worked out.

  385. Spacetraveller says:

    Hmm,

    I have followed this thread with interest. And I am torn….between the 2 sides.
    Whilst I remain eternally ‘hopeful’ as Jeff Strand does (and just in case anyone needs to know, I pray at Mass every single Sunday (including today) for singles who are ‘looking’ including the single men here (and especially you, FH – I know we have had our clashes in the past, but I know your situation is not in the least funny, and I sympathise), I also wince at the realisation that Jeff Strand is simply someone who married YEARS ago – like 20 years or more – and has no real insight into TODAY’s marriage market.
    I think FH and Jason and Melmoth and Co. would be more inclined to listen to Jeff Strand if he found his bride in America literally yesterday. Then I think everyone would be ‘all ears’ asking, well, how did you do that dude…

    But no. He met his NAWALT years ago. In an age, where it was still possible to do so. He keeps referring to Dalrock, who also married at least 20 years ago.

    So no-one is impressed. I get that.

    Jeff Strand is a fellow Catholic. I have a fondness for the Catholics here. Zippy and Earl being good examples. So I am not dissing you, Jeff Strand.
    Not at all.

    I only just celebrated 4 years of marriage. But even I, with my relatively recent history of the ‘dating’ world, consider myself completely out of touch with the SMP.

    Hope is good though. I like hope. It is what kept me from getting disillusioned. But perhaps my experience of the SMP is somewhat different from men’s experience.

    If FH and Jason and many others accept their situation (and marriage is not to be seen as some sort of ‘utopia’ compared to single life, which I am sure they realise), then so be it. It is cool to be happy wherever one is in life, no? Why not leave them be, Sir?
    It can be wounding to the other person to even indirectly or inadvertently remind them they have ‘failed’ when in fact their ‘failure’ is not their fault, especially when you have what they seek, and especialy when you got a crack a the pie before they got their turn at it (all eaten up by then).

    I think this might be the source of the discontent. Also mentioning the infidelity even though it was long ago, and you have repented, and you have been forgiven by your loving wife (God bless her, by the way), seems to reinforce the notion that the bad guys get the good girls, and they, knowing they are good boys are understandably double-whammed by this realisation.
    Hmm. Seems a cruel world, yes.

  386. Anon says:

    Spacetraveler,

    I also wince at the realisation that Jeff Strand is simply someone who married YEARS ago – like 20 years or more – and has no real insight into TODAY’s marriage market.

    Yes. Every comment of his seems to indicate that he has daughters who may not get to marry. I mean, they could, if they marry at 22, but if they want to ride the carousel and then marry at 33, only to find slim pickings, this leads to the ‘man up’ demands from men of Jeff’s generation.

  387. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    It matters little that Jeff Strand married in the 1990s. The corruption in the marriage market began in the 1970s, shortly after No Fault Divorce became legal in all states.

    I remember watching TV in the 1970s. “Newly liberated” divorcees were invariably portrayed as sexy, smart, sexy, strong, sexy, and sexy. On the Bob Newhart Show, Bob had a sexy divorced sister, Ellen. Love American Style depicted the free love fun of “fooling around” and often (not always) featured sexy divorced women. Lindsay Wagner was the sympathetic, sexy divorcee in The Paper Chase. One Day at a Time was the first sitcom with a divorced woman in the lead role, and she was portrayed as especially strong and responsible.

    Divorcees were portrayed as “hot” because they were “free” with their sexuality. They’d left boring marriages because they demanded freedom and excitement. Wild, “free love” oriented women, who refused to be tied down in suffocating marriages.

    I vaguely recall this 1972 TV movie about sexy divorcees Barbara Feldon and Connie Stevens. (As early as 1972, they were selling divorcees as sexy):

    I was a kid, and feeling conflicted watching these shows. The divorcees were sexy, kind, smart, and sympathetic. They had good reasons for divorcing their husbands. I thought I’d be happy married to them. Yet I worried, could I trust them not to divorce me?

    So as far back as the 1970s, Hollywood was teaching viewers to accept divorce as common and acceptable. That divorcees were sexy and decent women.

    Yet though I wanted marriage, I was already wary of marriage. I doubt boys growing up in the 1950s had those worries. Any man marrying in the 1990s should have had those worries.

  388. RICanuck says:

    @RPL

    Young men and women could easily marry during the 50’s. And the men got young low N wives. When no fault divorce was allowed during the 70’s, the result was a divorce explosion. Wives could easily leave their boring 50’s husbands during the 70’s. This included my mother.

    Male and female natures do not change, but the current legal climate does not encourage young men to marry, or semi-young women to stay married.

  389. Boxer says:

    Dear Red Pill Latecomer:

    I vaguely recall this 1972 TV movie about sexy divorcees Barbara Feldon and Connie Stevens. (As early as 1972, they were selling divorcees as sexy)

    Definitely before my time. Thanks for posting it. It’s always interesting to see cultural memory in the present. It appears to be masterful propaganda: depicting two little boys as completely fine with their descent into bastardy. I’ve told the story of my experience of my parents’ divorce here before, and won’t bore with the details.

    As an aside, I have learned, over the years, to treat the actor Alan Alda (one of the stars of this pathetic feature) with particular suspicion. It seems that he was at the forefront, early on, of promoting feminist praxis. Has anyone else noticed this soft-faced little worm, who constantly shills for the feminists, as I have? Interesting sidenote, anyway.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  390. Jason says:

    Spacetraveller:

    First. Thank you for your prayers for singles during Mass. I am not Roman Catholic, but I can agree on the aspects and power of earnest, and heartfelt prayer in Christ. It’s comforting. Be blessed!

    Second. I’ve mentioned on other blogs and perhaps here that my “singleness” became a ‘forced hand’ that I reluctantly had no other choice to “play” by the time I crested into my mid-forties. Now at the tender age of 47, the cards are held tighter. I call the bet, and make do. I understand that with God “all things are possible” but I also understand the reality of the world, culture, nation, and times I live in. More than likely now, at this point. It’s not going to happen…..I said more than likely. Not impossible.

    I remind myself to be “open” for an opportunity with a woman but opportunity was never there for the most part. I was always the “wallflower” or the “guy in the background” and combined with a very strong, shy and solitary nature…………the “game” was always stacked against me. I blamed women, a bit harshly and unfairly for awhile (especially drifting down into and fully in my cocaine and alcohol addiction). I admit this. I was wrong. I forgave. I pray forgiveness to be given. I have learned many aspects of the nature of women, and I am a guy who can have a laugh with the cute barista at Starbucks, I can make small talk with a few women from the Corps (Salvation Army) in a polite manner. I can work with women very well (my manager is a woman, and she is competent, hard-working and just). I work on tasks at the Corps with married women with no problems. Yes, I will hold a door for any woman that is entering a building….married or not. Attractive or not, young or old…..

    Third. Since I have never had a girlfriend or a real date (been on a group date a few times over the decades…..they don’t really count for anything) at my age………………this is a red flag to women. A woman will date a divorced guy in his forties with three kids, saddled with alimony, child-support and who moved back to his parents home over a man who is my age, never has been married, doesn’t have kids, and seems a bit clueless on “what to do”” on date. While most of teenage American guys were dating, having first time clumsy sex, making out, flirting in the late 1980’s; I was working my part time retail job at the GAP, studying and living at a “boys prep” school. I wasn’t on the football team, and I wasn’t blessed with above average looks……combined with a shy personality….you get it. It set a recipe for disaster during and after college and grad school.

    I also took the advice of women in college, and grad school (a HUGE mistake on my part) on how to date, what they liked, wanted or were in search of for a boyfriend. I had a prime job in grad school. I bartended at a “college aged” bar and club. If I was more like most of my peers at that time……..I probably could have had some of the best, envy causing sex of anyone. It wasn’t as if women were repulsed by me. Many did befriend me! I just became the chump. I listened to what they said they wanted in a boyfriend….and then they went for the extreme opposite. The LSD I did frequently in college tore my already frail Ego to shreds as well.

    Lastly. Just want to say at times it’s hard. The “blues” doesn’t cripple me anymore……but I get it sometimes. It hurts. It’s not fair. It wrecks me in my private prayer closet at times. I am told by fellow Christians that I am this “amazing catch” but they don’t know any women to even set me up with. They don’t know what to say except “God has a plan” and the shopworn “God is preparing this amazing woman for you” things that are said to mean well….but hurt so very much.

    Your point about infidelity, and the Mr. Player / Bad Boy still being forgiven and getting the girl hit home too. Thanks for articulating something I am too polite to mention or say.

    Have a good day, and thanks for your reply!

  391. Boxer says:

    Dear Embracing Reality:

    I’ve known so many Christian couples over the years in which the wife was adulterous, it’s ridiculous. It was the case 20 years ago that people around them were shocked when it was revealed, not anymore. Few years ago I befriended a Christian man who’s wife cheated a few years before. He decided to stay and make it work. They have children. He was a virgin when he married her, she was not. Recently she tried, online, to cheat again. He’s still sticking it out. In the course of talking to other Christian men he found several of them are like him, married to adulterers, “dealing with it”. I guess it’s a thing now.

    As a rule, I never, ever pass judgment on any other man for doing what he does in his own house. The following is just general commentary.

    My read of the New Testament (specifically MATT 5:32 and MATT 19:9), which I believe is reasonable, gives each such man the option to put away (a/k/a divorce) his ho’ wife the minute she fucks another man after the wedding day.

    Furthermore, there is no reasonable time limit for pulling the trigger on the decision. It could be within a day of finding out, or in 20 years.

    What I hope is that these men (at least some of them) are wisely biding their time. They are raising their children, doing what they can to keep mother’s bad behavior from rubbing off on their kids, and getting them into adulthood with the comfort and security of a father.

    In the interim, I see these men socking away monies secretly, perhaps overseas, buying property, creating legal trusts, etc.

    After the last child leaves home, the hammer will fall.

    Remember, ten years ago, when you pulled a train with all my friends? Well, I have not forgotten. See ya, bitch!

    And that will be the end of that.

    Sure, such men will have to pay off these ho’ wives. That’s proper punishment for marrying a skank. If they are wise now, however, the reckoning later will be minimized, and they can push on to bigger and better things.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  392. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Playmates is about two divorced couples who “ex-wife swap.” Each man dates the others’ ex. Kinky, no?

    The movie’s title calls the divorcees “playmates.” As in Playboy Playmate. The message being: Married men are stuck with boring wives. But lucky men get to date divorcee playmates.

    As I recall the ending, one couple reunites. The husband (Doug McClure) realizes what a fool he was, and his wife (Connie Stevens) forgives him. Alan Alda and Barbara Feldon remain divorced, this being the wife’s justifiable decision.

    So the TV movie portrays divorce as both exciting and offering valuable life lessons. McClure and Stevens return to a stronger marriage (thanks to divorce), while Feldon opts for her freedom.

    The movie sells the primary importance of True Love. Marriage or divorce, neither is good or bad. They’re just tools in our quest for True Love. Whatever path leads to True Love is the right path.

    There have been a flood of toxic Lifetime/Hallmark TV movies over the decades. But the template was already set at least 45 years ago.

  393. Anon says:

    RPL,

    It matters little that Jeff Strand married in the 1990s. The corruption in the marriage market began in the 1970s, shortly after No Fault Divorce became legal in all states.

    It takes time for a change in the law to percolate through society. In the 90s, a blue pill guy could still perhaps get a decent girl at a good age and with zero or little N.

    Quite a bit of what is displayed on TV today would not have been presented in the 90s.

  394. Anon says:

    Much like the folly of full democracy (i.e. allowing non-taxpayers to vote, including almost all women at the time of the enactment) only became slightly visible after year 60, heavily visible after year 90, and even now, extremely few people are able to connect the dots of the current horrors to female suffrage almost a century ago.

    Imagine what America would be like if government spending (and hence taxes) were just a fourth of what they are now. Most women would be housewives and mothers, divorce rates would be under 10%, and most blacks would be well-behaved and productive. There would not have been illegal immigration.

  395. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    They don’t know what to say except “God has a plan” and the shopworn “God is preparing this amazing woman for you”

    As every Catholic knows, we all have our crosses to bear. For some it’s blindness or some crippling disease. For others it’s frivorce. For still others it’s loneliness. I have good things and I have things that depress me. I pray not to lose hope or despair over my lack, but to be grateful for what I have.

  396. Jason says:

    Lol…..speaking of Alan Alda. To quote my father, just after “MASH” went off the air:

    “Alda is your typical 1970’s wimpy liberal. Oh on that show, they were never wrong! They were always right! Always had the smart-alec remark, and in real life in a crack unit like that, the other officers would have given him and that other guy a richly deserved soap-party* never was one of my favorite shows. Glad it’s finally off the air!” (though re-runs would continue for the next twenty-five years)

    *soap-party. Evidently a USAF thing. My father was in the Air Force from 1955-1959, stationed in Japan and Vietnam (yes the air force had bases in Vietnam in the 1950’s) If you had a smart-alec, troublemaker, a general fool, a prize-horses ass, or a tattle-tale in the squad….the rest of the unit (20 to 30 other men) would come to your bunk / area late, late at night with socks and slung with a fresh bar of soap inside the sock. They then would proceed to beat you hard, mercilessly until the soap in the sock was broken into small bits, chunks or powder. The recipient was usually covered in bruises, welts and had a changed attitude thereafter.

  397. Novaseeker says:

    It takes time for a change in the law to percolate through society. In the 90s, a blue pill guy could still perhaps get a decent girl at a good age and with zero or little N.

    Quite a bit of what is displayed on TV today would not have been presented in the 90s.

    Yeah there were waves of it, really. The first wave was from the early 70s through the mid-late 80s. This wave featured a huge spike in divorce as women everywhere fled their pre-sex-rev marriages. This was somewhat understandable because the culture changed such that the assumptions when the marriage was entered into (for life barring bad behavior, sex roles, no marital rape) no longer applied, and while the women wanted the new rules, the husbands by and large didn’t so lots and lots of divorces happened. Basically the state changed the rules of marriage in the middle of these marriages, and to the women’s benefit, so millions left their husbands in a relatively short period of time. At the same time the sex rev was spiking in the 70s and early 80s — this was the golden age of disco, swinging, all kinds of sex parties and so on. Women wanted some of this, and not their pre-feminist husbands, so that was what was happening.

    In the latter part of the first half of 80s, AIDS started having an impact, and it essentially killed that 70s free sex culture. For a while there in the mid-80s, things were in stasis — the new system hadn’t emerged yet, and both the old pre-feminist system and the 1970s sex-on-a spigot system were no longer functioning.

    That ended in the later 80s and 90s, when the system we have now began to emerge. That system wasn’t the 1970s sex party system, it was more of the closed 80/20 system that we see today, where there *is* a sex party going on, but it’s a VIP-only club, where most other people are excluded. But it took a while for this to get going. It changed only slowly at first. The 90s, above all, were when PC began to really gain a lot of momentum in the academy and media, and it was also when the extreme degree of political polarization really began. The foundations of the world we live in were being built, but it was still not quite there yet. You could kind of see the outlines of what it would look like, but it was still not quite emergent. People who married in this era (late 80s to mid-90s) had probably the best window in some time to get married, really, before the wheels really came off the bus after the turn of the century.

    The game changer was technology, and specifically the internet and communications technologies. These dramatically changed everything in profound ways — from internet porn, to anonymous email, from smartphones to Tinder, from instagram to Facebook and so on. This technology, which emerged just as the new model was starting to get fully deployed, dramatically sped up the rate of change and also moved that change in very specific directions, almost all of which have been profoundly harmful for male/female relations. Women who are in any way attractive have access to a seemingly endless supply of male attention in exchange for sexual display on instagram, Facebook and elsewhere. Young men of 22 have seen more beautiful women naked than Genghis Khan could have ever dreamed of. People of both sexes can have affairs extremely easily and privately due to various technologies that appear designed to facilitate precisely this (Snapchat, Kik, anonymous throwaway email addresses, ubiquity of smartphones, hookup apps like Tinder etc.). The emergent model of the “closed garden” basically melded together with these emergent technologies to create the current pre-dystopia relationship market — one where many people of both sexes are checked out, opting for virtual stimuli, while a smaller portion of the population engages in all kind of things mostly on an out of sight basis, and people in relationships cheat like mad because the technology appears virtually designed to facilitate it, and the culture is thoroughly marinated in sexuality.

  398. Anon says:

    Novaseeker,

    The biggest disruptions are yet to come.

    My views on VR Sex have changed slightly, since I no longer believe that women will not get arousal from it. A VR simulation where a violent lunatic graphically stabs another woman to death, and then, while still soaked in blood and wielding the knife, proceeds to have sex with the now-aroused female user, will be very popular with women based on what we know about female sexuality. So women, too, will have access to sexual thrills that they like but cannot safely access on demand.

    But in any event, the SMV or real women will take a hit, as more and more men just find VR better. The true costs of women (search costs, transit costs, date costs, STDs, FRAs, etc.) will be contributors to the substitution. 8s will be the new 5s.

  399. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    The 90s, above all, were when PC began to really gain a lot of momentum in the academy and media,

    The term “politically correct” was reintroduced into common usage in 1987, with the publication of Allan Bloom’s book, The Closing of the American Mind, in which he recounted the rise of PC speech codes on campus.

    I was attending graduate school in the late 1980s. The student gay group was especially active.

    * They demanded the school crack down on “hate speech.”

    * They were already promoting the idea of gay marriage.

    * And they were demanding the school forbid the FBI from recruiting on campus, because the FBI had an official policy of not hiring homosexuals.

    Imagine that. As recently as the late 1980s, the FBI still had an open, official policy of not hiring homosexuals.

  400. Jason says:

    Also mention STD’s / STI’s today will be a factor in the near future for any man of morals. The infection rates keep climbing, and the strain resistant infections of “the clap” and “syphilis” are growing by the day. One just won’t be able to go get “a shot” and be okay after a few weeks.

    Genital herpes and HPV (warts) which are viruses and stay with you for life are at frightening levels for the 22-34 crowd, and its going to be passed upward into my generation as well because of the massive amounts of “inter-generational” sex that is happening at epidemic levels. I know several men my age who are having plenty of sex with many women half their age (not in the Christian scene of course). That “Guardasil” vaccination for HPV btw only protects from one or two strains of HPV. There are over thirty strains of HPV…..but the makers of “Guardasil” and modern sex-ed don’t teach that part 😉 and I hear there are some serious side effects now being reported in the EU where its “mandatory” for all boys / girls over the age of 13 in many of the members states.

    Genital Herpes is rampant in Hollywood, and in San Francisco. HIV never went away, but that is never talked about when a Democrat sits in the White House……….we are now hearing about it again on for the fact that a Republican is president…….

    On the bio-science evolutionary side of the fence, many scientists have stated that “marriage” developed in humans communities because of rampant, epidemic sexually transmitted diseases in the early “promiscious horde” communities of humans just before the dawn of civilization……..

    The rate of these infections now is beyond a joke….and I see sooner than later ANOTHER clause added to the “americans with disabilities act” of persons with an STI / STD that you cannot judge or discriminate against them, and of course will be “entitled” to a monthly check of a various amount to pay for the treatment / medications and for emotional support……

    This needs to be factored in the future of marriage as well

  401. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Some of what occurred in the early 1970s:

    * No fault divorced legalized.

    * Abortion legalized.

    * Homosexuality no longer regarded as a mental disorder by the American Psychiatric Association.

  402. Anon says:

    Some of what occurred in the early 1970s:

    * No fault divorced legalized.

    * Abortion legalized.

    * Homosexuality no longer regarded as a mental disorder by the American Psychiatric Association.

    So? You still speak as though the very minute that something is legalized, that it diffuses into society that same day. It does not. It takes years or even decades.

    Female suffrage started in 1920. The major effects of that only began to emerge many decades later.

  403. honeycomb says:

    huh .. who knew .. homo state rep from San Freak’disco area would be in favor of HIV not being a felony any more .. scroll down to the comments (1st comment) ..

    http://www.returnofkings.com/131651/its-no-longer-a-felony-in-california-to-knowingly-infect-someone-with-hiv?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ReturnOfKings+%28Return+Of+Kings%29

  404. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I was born in the early 1960s. I’m a tail end Boomer. I’ve seen so much change and decay over my lifetime.

    I remember the 1960s, my mother pointing at long-haired hippies, and mocking them. I remember wholesome TV shows like the Mickey Mouse Club, Lost in Space, and Batman.

    I remember the 1970s, when I entered puberty and began to notice that women were different, and in a nice way. The sexy divorcees on TV. The media messages about free love, easy women … and that what women really want is a nice guy.

    I remember the 1980s, being a nice guy, and how hard it was to find a date, especially with an attractive, quality woman. I voted for Reagan, thinking he’d make America great again. I thought Communism was the greatest threat to our future.

    I remember the1990s, when Communism fell. Thinking that now, finally, we can close our overseas military bases, and return to an America First isolationism, with smaller government. The Gulf War ended that idea. Then the Clinton sex scandals, the rise of gay culture, and Girls Gone Wild videotapes and 976 sex phone lines advertised on TV.

    And then things got even worse.

    I’ve seen quite a lot of cultural and economic decline in my 50 plus years.

  405. Jason says:

    My memories of the 1970’s are vague…..images……songs on the radio during car trips every summer (riding in the cargo area of a station wagon)……hair styles…..longer hair was very popular……I remember learning in Kindergarten that ‘Jerry Ford’ was the President and ‘Hugh Carey’ was our governor (New York State)….but not really having a concept of this……I do remember ‘Happy Days’ being on TV during prime-time, ‘Fantasy Island’ and ‘Match Game’ as well. I remember watching ‘Sesame Street’ and ‘Mister Rogers Neighborhood’ everyday as a little boy. Everyday seemed to be “summer” for some reason……I remember we had a 1976 Plymouth Volare station wagon, and my father had a 1973 Dodge truck. I also remember every Saturday watching ‘saturday morning cartoons’ until noontime of so, and then it was “time to go outside and play” until dinner, didn’t matter if it was snowing or raining.

    I do remember 1978 and 1979 pretty clearly. I was on little league baseball and I started ‘Cub Scouts’ at that time. I remember going for two weeks to ‘summer camp’ in summer 1979 (YMCA Camp Chingachook on Lake George), it was my first real time away from home for an extended period. I remember Jimmy Carter being president….I remember the hostage crisis as well too. I remember New Years Eve 1979, it was the first time I got to stay up to midnight, and I clearly remember “the ball drop” in New York City and it turning “1980”

    Thanks for the trip down amnesia lane 😉

  406. Lost Patrol says:

    @ Boxer and Jason

    Alan Alda was an early adopter of feminist ideals, I don’t know what he expected to get, or got out of it. As a lad I enjoyed the TV show M*A*S*H* and thought his character would be great to emulate, always got the nurses into the supply tent at night, always had the wisest cracks, always saved the patient with skills surpassing everyone else. The show gradually began to preach rather than entertain, not uncommon, but it became so obvious and over the top that even a kid could see it and lose interest.

    Everything he has done since (especially when speaking for himself and not a character) has only reinforced my low opinion of him as a man.

  407. Lost Patrol says:

    @RPL

    Imagine that. As recently as the late 1980s, the FBI still had an open, official policy of not hiring homosexuals.

    That was official US military position until Bill Clinton’s don’t-ask-don’t-tell took effect in 1994. Part of the paperwork to join or get a security clearance included affirming you were not a homosexual.

    Side Bar: This means that as it became more open and indeed fully sanctioned, and senior officers began to come out of the closet, being publicly acknowledged with their partners at official functions, etc.; that those same officers had committed, years prior, an offense punishable by court martial – namely False Official Statement.

    Elements.

    (1) That the accused signed a certain official document or made a certain official statement;
    (2) That the document or statement was false in certain particulars;
    (3) That the accused knew it to be false at the time of signing it or making it; and
    (4) That the false document or statement was made with the intent to deceive.

    None of those generals or admirals was ever brought up on charges for that as far as I know, and I was watching for it.

  408. feeriker says:

    None of those generals or admirals was ever brought up on charges for that as far as I know, and I was watching for it.

    No General or Admiral will EVER be brought up on criminal charges for, let alone be tried and convicted of, ANYTHING that would get a junior officer or enlisted person court-martialed, imprisoned, dishonorably discharged, or even sentenced to death – unless that General or Admiral falls out of favor with the One Percent (for whom they are the senior “enforcers”).

    It never ceases to amuse me to hear people who (correctly) assert that the U.S. federal government is not only hopelessly incompetent, but criminally rotten and corrupt to its core, yet in the same breath assert that the defense establishment is somehow an exception to this norm.

  409. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    In the 1970s and 1980s, Alan Alda became known and praised as The Man Who Is Not Afraid to Cry. He did several movies in which he played the quintessential New Age Sensitive Man. He cried in every one. He cried on M*A*S*H* too. Alda was famous for his tears.

    I found this on YouTube:

    Phil Donahue was another leading New Age Sensitive Man of the 1970s and 1980s.

    Alda’s tears paved the way for TV’s Hill Street Blues, in which tough street cops often cried. The police captain had an attorney ex-wife. She as stronger than him. I caught an episode in which he bared his soul to her, then cried. She comforted him, but never cried herself.

  410. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    There was a 1995 TV move, Serving in Silence: The Margarethe Cammermeyer Story.

    The “true story” of a “decorated” woman who was booted out of the Army because she was a lesbian. Naturally, she was portrayed in heroic terms.

  411. American says:

    I don’t think you can comprehend the situation properly without understanding the role that postmodernism plays in this… https://youtu.be/wLoG9zBvvLQ

  412. anon says:

    “No General or Admiral will EVER be brought up on criminal charges for, let alone be tried and convicted of, ANYTHING that would get a junior officer or enlisted person court-martialed, imprisoned, dishonorably discharged, or even sentenced to death – unless that General or Admiral falls out of favor with the One Percent (for whom they are the senior “enforcers”).”

    Guess Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Sinclair was “out of favor”. But everyone else has carte blanche to commit murder and mayhem. Right. Just make sure you don’t misuse the staff car. I had to pick a three star (neighbor friend) up because he couldn’t find a legal way to get a ride back from the airport after a TDY. Feel free to believe I’m making that up. Pretty random claim though.
    I think if every politician was obligated to disclose all of their personal holdings at the time they take office (a requirement once one makes O7) and forbidden from taking part in any decisions where there is a conflict of interest in their holdings, there would be a LOT less graft.
    I have yet to see a person make O7 and not get hit with a massive amount of identity theft right after. There really is little benefit. Funny the conspiracy theories out there.

  413. Oscar says:

    @ anon says:
    October 9, 2017 at 9:06 am

    “I think if every politician was obligated to disclose all of their personal holdings at the time they take office (a requirement once one makes O7) and forbidden from taking part in any decisions where there is a conflict of interest in their holdings, there would be a LOT less graft.”

    Joseph Stalin said that it doesn’t matter who votes. What matters is who counts the votes. Likewise, it doesn’t matter who makes the law. What matters is who enforces the law. The people who enforce the law are complicit in graft, so you can’t trust them to enforce the law justly.

    Besides, corruption is inherent to our flesh. It’s written into our sinful nature.

    The only way to limit corruption and graft is to limit the government’s size, power, scope, and budget. Graft is less profitable (and therefore less tempting) when a government is small and relatively weak than when it’s gargantuan and powerful. And even when government officials surrender to the temptation of graft, it’s effects on us is smaller, more limited.

    Right now our government is gargantuan, hugely powerful, and enormously expensive. So, naturally, graft is rampant, and will get worse as our government grows.

  414. thedeti says:

    Way up there on Oct 5, Peasant said:

    The biggest thing that gets me from that CNN article is that the rationalization wasn’t even real rationalization. None of those women considered at any point that they were doing something “unethical” (to use awful business-speak) or morally wrong; they were justifying what they saw as behavior that might upset their spouse.

    I think this is because, almost to a woman, when you get all the way down to how married women feel about cheating on their husbands, it’s that they feel entitled to their affair. They feel entitled to the fun, excitement, tingles, hot sex. They’ve put up with the work and the drudgery and the deprivation and the fighting and the “meh”, “so-so” sex. They’ve paid the bills, made the meals, worked the job and folded the laundry. So they’re entitled to have a little fun, blow off some steam, and, maybe, look for a better model.

    Oh they feel a little guilt over hurting their husbands. They feel some fear about what getting caught would do to their kids. But for the most part, they feel they’ve “earned” the right to hop back on the carousel for a ride or two. And, as Nova said way up there, it’s very easy. It’s like ordering a movie on On-Demand, or calling up a friend to share a pizza. Just about any woman can find some man out there who will have sex with her. For a woman, sex is on tap 24/7/365 – easy to get, easy to have, and if you don’t like this one, you can always go get another one.

  415. thedeti says:

    It is possible for some women to fight their inner demons, and live moral lives. And it’s easier for these women to live morally if they are raised properly, and live in a society reinforcing their fight against personal sin.

    Yeah, kind of. What actually makes it easier for women are (1) clear rules, clearly setting out the expected behavior and the consequences for breaking the rules; and (2) enforcing the rule and imposing the consequences good and hard when the rule is broken. And you enforce the rule and impose the consequences EVERY TIME — no “if I cry I get out of it” or “I had a good reason(s)” or “can’t we make an exception this time” or “I’m sorry I promise I won’t do it again”. NO. “You did X; therefore, Y is the consequence”. Every time.

    But we don’t live in that society. Instead, it’s “You did X, therefore we will give you A and B and C and pat you on the head on the way to the divorce court. It’s your husband’s fault you did X. It’s society’s fault you did X.”

  416. thedeti says:

    a serious challenge in the “I’m dating Jesus atmosphere” of Christian women

    Suuuure. “I’m dating Jesus… Jesus is my boyfriend”

    Thing is, she’s usually cheating on Jesus with Alpha McGorgeous or Frank Fratboy or Alan Assistantpastor or Will Worshipleader.

  417. Anonymous Reader says:

    thedeti
    What actually makes it easier for women are (1) clear rules, clearly setting out the expected behavior and the consequences for breaking the rules; and (2) enforcing the rule and imposing the consequences good and hard when the rule is broken.

    The first time I read the famous Arthur Schopenhauer quote on women I found it quite offensive, because I was soaked in the equalism of the Female Imperative. With a few years of seeing things clearly thanks to The Glasses it becomes more and more obvious it is correct. A woman is the most responsible teenager in the house.

    Here is an updated verison of an androsphere classic circa 2006:

    http://masculineprinciple.blogspot.ca/2015/03/woman-most-responsible-teenager-in-house.html

  418. earl says:

    And you enforce the rule and impose the consequences EVERY TIME — no “if I cry I get out of it” or “I had a good reason(s)” or “can’t we make an exception this time” or “I’m sorry I promise I won’t do it again”. NO. “You did X; therefore, Y is the consequence”. Every time.

    A lot of that starts with proper parenting. If daddy never punishes his princess like that…what’s to make her think she can do X whenever she wants.

  419. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    If daddy never punishes his princess like that…

    Who?

  420. earl says:

    “you are now of an age when you will be attractive to younger women and also to women whom life has passed by”

    Very wise advice there. I’m 35 and I hope to avoid the later.

  421. feeriker says:

    A lot of that starts with proper parenting. If daddy never punishes his princess like that…what’s to make her think she can do X whenever she wants.

    Many a daddy wants to punish his hell-raising little harlotspawn. However, odds are overwhelming that Mommy, resentful at still being shackled to her BBP and not even half trying to keep her own inner slut in check, not only actively undermines Daddy’s attempts to check slutlet’s feral behavior and actively abets her in it, but threatens Daddy with siccing the State’s hired guns on him if he lays so much as a finger on her.

    Ask me how I know about this …

  422. earl says:

    The third girl, I asked for her number at a FRICKIN SINGLES GROUP. Then she told me over text she “was really focused on getting her life together right now and wasn’t looking for more than a friendship.”

    And I thought I was the only expert who was great at finding Catholic or Christian girls who only want to be my friend.

    I’ll give you some perspective on that line…that line is only used because she doesn’t feel anything for you, but rather than say that rejection directly, she gives you that so it somehow makes you feel better (it doesn’t ladies).

  423. earl says:

    Ask me how I know about this …

    Good point, most sluts have loads of experience being the rebellious under-miners instead of the responsible adult. Don’t marry them fellas if you want your children to have a decent shot at being productive human beings.

    The more disturbing trend is slut single mothers encouraging that to their daughters at young ages…like pre-puberty age.

  424. earl says:

    But encourage them to seek out a NAWALT (assuming the young man desires a wife and family) and to marry her. Believe me, NAWALT’s are out there….I know from my own personal experience.

    I know they exist too…but I also know they aren’t plentiful. For every one I’ve met, I’ve probably see well over hundreds who are certainly not marriage material.

    Even the ones who have shown signs of being the unicorn will still be controlled by their emotions at times as well. She has to be the type who doesn’t see divorce as an exit strategy when she’s not happy or things aren’t going well.

  425. thedeti says:

    @ Nova:

    Young men of 22 have seen more beautiful women naked than Genghis Khan could have ever dreamed of.

    well. Young men of 22 have seen more images and videos of beautiful women naked than Genghis Khan could have ever dreamed of.

  426. thedeti says:

    Missed a tag. Should be after “images and videos of”.

  427. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    Good point, most sluts have loads of experience being the rebellious under-miners

  428. earl says:

    Young men of 22 have seen more images and videos of beautiful women naked than Genghis Khan could have ever dreamed of.

    Yeah, that is actually a big difference.

  429. Tim says:

    That’s right! Withhold sex until you find a man willing to pay for it through marriage (prostitution), so you can later forcefully transfer men’s wealth to women in the divorce through alimony, asset division and child support – and you won’t even have to put out any more! You can even keep the kids and limit their exposure to ‘the father’, LOL! What’s more, you can forcefully transfer men’s wealth and power to women thorough Title IX and Affirmative Action, and you don’t even have to sign up for selective service nor be expected to fight in die for your own rights! Who cares if men have to do all the building, maintaining and dying? Girl Powah!

    Female Privilege! It must be maintained at all costs!

    –A Gynocentrist (Tradcon Feminism 1.0, not to be confused with Hyper-Gynocentric Feminsm 2.0)

  430. earlthomas786 says:

    Speaking of crazy mothers doing something weird.

    ‘Moms hold special mini-wedding photo shoot with their kids’

    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/moms-hold-special-mini-wedding-photo-shoot-kids-200413891–abc-news-parenting.html?cid=social_twitter_gma

    I get childhood playing make believe…but it gets weird when the mothers take it too far.

  431. thedeti says:

    @Jeff Strand:

    After reading your comments and exchanges here, I just have a couple of things to say. This is going to sting a bit, but I think we all need this to put your comments in proper context. I am sure no one else will read this but I needed to get this off my chest.

    1) You’ve said here you cheated on your wife early on in your marriage and she forgave you. You also said you still “slip up from time to time” and that you “just love f*cking women”. That last part, I can totally understand. It’s not clear to me whether you still occasionally cheat, though, or whether you just have the thoughts and desires to cheat. If it’s the latter, you have my sympathies as well, since there isn’t a man alive who hasn’t had a desire for more sexual variety in his life. If it’s the former and you still cheat, well, you have a bit of a problem. And if you still cheat and get away with it, you’re a top 20% alpha man. You’re not a high beta. You’re alpha.

    You related this in part to give the story of your wife’s forgiveness and that you found a true NAWALT, an exception to the rule. That may very well be. But let me explain why your cheating didn’t explode your marriage. It was because, and ONLY because, of the fact that your wife did the internal mental/emotional calculations, and she decided, she knows, that you’re the best she can do and that for whatever reason, remaining married to you serves her interests, given all of the facts and circumstances in which she finds herself. That’s it. It’s not because of her character or because you’re so awesome or because she’s a NAWALT or she’s different from other women. It is only and SOLELY because Mrs. Strand ran the numbers, looked around, asked around, put her ear to the ground and her finger to the air, considered all the circumstances and facts, and concluded that you’re the best she can do.

    And you had best hope that she continues to believe that, and that the facts continue to bear that out. You had best hope that you continue to be “the best she can do”. Because if she ever decides she can do better, if she ever finds out she’s got a better option, then you and your marriage will be in very deep trouble — especially if you continue with dalliances on the side. If she divorces you under those circumstances, it will be a divorce rape of epic proportions. You’ll think you’ve been f*cked by a train.

    Another thing — I know that you trust Mrs. Strand. I will say, though, that if she’s cheated on you, and she chooses not to tell you, you will never know and you will never find out. Women are exceedingly good liars. They are exceptionally good at concealing their cheating. Everyone covers for them. Her girlfriends will never tell you. They’ll go to their graves with what they know about your wife, and even if they tell others; they’ll never tell you. If she’s cheated, her erstwhile affair partners will never tell you. And if she cheated or is cheating, she’ll be exceedingly careful about what she does, where she goes, and where she does her cheating. She’ll be very careful to cover her tracks, avoid places she could be seen by people you both know, and avoid leaving any sort of paper trail.

    2) You next said that, in your opinion, it’s very easy for the average man to find women to have sex with. You couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve gone to school with physicians, lawyers, engineers, military men, and business managers. They’re not stupid guys, and they’re not fatasses or pimply faced omegas. They’re accomplished men who have distinguished themselves in their work and who have overcome significant obstacles in their lives. And these guys can’t get dates. They can’t get women interested in them. EVen with some OK game, they still can’t get women interested.

    You also asserted that most men are marrying. Yes, that’s true right now. It’s also true that fully half of those marriages will end in divorce. And of those who stay together, many of them are not in any sort of real, true “marriage”. They live in dead bedroom marriages. They live as wage slaves to their wives, who browbeat and abuse their husbands. They stay in the marriages because the costs of getting out are cost-prohibitive and because a divorce would destroy their children’s lives. While that is not a real “marriage”, it is better than wasting assets and ruining the lives of innocent children.

    You clearly have no idea what men of today are facing. None.

  432. thedeti says:

    @Jeff Strand:

    There are only two ways men discover their wives cheated on them:

    1) She confesses; or

    2) You find clear evidence of it – you find suspicious spending or an out of place receipt or stumble on a series of emails or texts or, even better, you go looking for evidence and you find the emails/texts.

  433. Anon says:

    thedeti said :

    You clearly have no idea what men of today are facing. None.

    A hundred bucks says that Jeff Strand has a daughter or two who is approaching her 20s, and he is worried about whether she will still get to marry at 33 after 15 years on the carousel. His reaction to this risk is to shame men, rather than make his daughter marry at 23 and miss out on 15 years of cock.

  434. Original Laura says:

    @earl

    commented on the following quote,

    “The third girl, I asked for her number at a FRICKIN SINGLES GROUP. Then she told me over text she “was really focused on getting her life together right now and wasn’t looking for more than a friendship.””

    And I thought I was the only expert who was great at finding Catholic or Christian girls who only want to be my friend.
    I’ll give you some perspective on that line…that line is only used because she doesn’t feel anything for you, but rather than say that rejection directly, she gives you that so it somehow makes you feel better (it doesn’t ladies).

    ****************************

    @earl — In all seriousness, what should a girl say when she is NOT interested? The girl quoted above seems to me to have made a good effort to avoid a “nuclear rejection,” and she has also avoided wasting the man’s time & money with agreeing to a date or two because she has nothing to do that weekend, and then afterwards telling him that she wants “friendship only.” She knows that she isn’t interested, and she tells the guy directly and privately in a way that makes it possible for them to still be on speaking terms when they run into each other at church, etc.

    Unless she was shamelessly flirting with the guy BEFORE she told him she wasn’t interested, I don’t see any bad behavior here. I’m asking in all sincerity if there is a better way to handle this situation.

  435. feministhater says:

    Laura, opening your mouth always leads to bad things. Come on, read again.

    She’s in a singles group and states that she is getting her life together and not looking for anything more than a friendship to a guy who asked her for a date. You don’t go to the ‘singles group’ if you’re not looking to find a partner. It’s an excuse to avoid having to state she isn’t interested in him, specifically, which he is sure to find out soon enough as she starts dating another man or men from that group. Making Church life even harder between the two. It doesn’t soften the blow, it just causes animosity. If the girl ain’t interested, she needs to say ‘No thank you’ and ‘I’m not interested’. Done. That is all. Most guys will get the message and won’t bother her again. Unless of course she’s playing hard to get, in which case, most churchian guys won’t bother her again anyway.

    She knows that she isn’t interested, and she tells the guy directly and privately in a way that makes it possible for them to still be on speaking terms when they run into each other at church, etc.

    Except she did none of these things at all. Sometimes I wonder if you comprehend what you write. She didn’t just tell him privately that she isn’t interested, she made up an excuse that is sure to backfire on her when he sees her flirting and dating other men. They won’t be on speaking terms after that. Why? She is dishonest. That is why.

    Why don’t you cut the crap and just be honest?

  436. thedeti says:

    Orig Laura:

    In all seriousness, what should a girl say when she is NOT interested?

    “I’m not interested in you.”

    To a man, saying the word “friend” or any of its forms leaves the door cracked open. It says “I don’t want to date you, but if you be my friend I might want to later, maybe.” When that is NOT the message that woman meant to send at all. The message she intended to send was:

    “No. I am not going to date you, now or at any time in the future. I am not in the least little bit sexually attracted to you. I am never, ever, going to have sex with you, not in a million years. Never. Not ever. It’s NOT. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.”

    But, being a woman, she soft pedaled it because she didn’t want to look like a bitch and she wanted to preserve his feelings. No. Women should not do that. Women should not concern themselves with the man’s feelings. She needs to send the clear, very, very clear, message that she wants nothing from him. Not dates, not sex, not friendship, not ANYTHING. Because she isn’t really interested in friendship with him. When a woman says any form of “friends” or “let’s just be friends” or “just looking for friendship” she’s saying “no sex not ever no f’in way” but in such a way as to give the guy false hope that if he befriends her, he’ll have a chance, when he doesn’t have a chance and never ever will.

    She should just say “I’m not interested” or “I’m not interested in you” and leave it at that and DO NOT SAY ANYTHING about “friends”.

  437. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “Even the ones who have shown signs of being the unicorn will still be controlled by their emotions at times as well. She has to be the type who doesn’t see divorce as an exit strategy when she’s not happy or things aren’t going well”

    Yes, and I think she needs to recognize and submit to her husband as the head of the household. That has been a really valuable dynamic in my marriage, that when I make a decision or tell my wife to do something I know she will accept it without a question. There have been times where I have asked for her input (or she has volunteered it) when it comes to a certain course of action and I have followed her suggestions, but that’s because after thinking it over I truly came to the conclusion that she was right. But at the end of the day, I have the final say on pretty much everything. Her personal motto (as she would tell you) is “Husband knows best”.

    I would not marry a woman who didn’t feel that way, and I can’t understand the mindset of anyone who would.

    Here’s another thought. Lori Gottleib talks about people being divided into “maximizers” and “satisficers”. I agree with this. One thing I have noticed about my wife – she is happy with most things. She is happy with a Dodge Caravan; she doesn’t need the Honda Odyssey. She’s happy with a modest house; she doesn’t need the McMansion. She’s happy with a modest engagement ring; she didn’t need me to spend thousands and thousands.

    And beyond that, she’s just happy about most things in general. If you made a movie you def want her to review it – any movie she sees (unless it truly, truly sucked) she’ll tell you it’s “pretty good” and that she liked it. Most any restaurant she goes to (unless the food was just terrible), she’ll enjoy it and say I think it was good. In other words, most things satisfy her/make her happy.

    If you think about it, this is kind of opposite of hypergamy. So this may help explain what makes her NAWALT. And for single guys seeking a NAWALT, perhaps this is something they should look for in a girl they’re dating. It may sound strange, but it’s like if she’s happy with most movies, most restaurants, most houses, most TV shows etc….then she’s likely to be happy in MOST marriages MOST of the time. She’s very much a “satisficer”. Which means she’s less likely to constantly find fault with her husband.

    What do you think? Does that make sense?

  438. Jeff Strand says:

    Deti,

    As far as cheating on my wife, not to worry…I’ve been “good” for years now. And God willing, I don’t see that changing. I’m pretty strict with myself on this. Though like you said, we all face temptation.

    As far as why my wife forgave me, well you’re free to believe your theory that she made all kinds of cold, calculating strategizing about whether she’d be better off if she left me. But I really don’t think that’s what was going on in her head (and I know her just a little bit better than you do). I think it was more that she knew she loved me, that I loved her, and honestly, I don’t think it was that big of a deal to her. I certainly don’t think she saw it as any kind of betrayal. Perhaps more of a shrugging of the shoulders while saying “Oh well…boys will be boys, after all” kind of thing,

    As far as your comments on her hypothetical cheating on me…I really don’t worry about it or spend any time thinking about it. I’m not the overly jealous or possessive type – I’m not the type to forbid her going on a girls night out, for example. And I wouldn’t even care if she danced with a guy or flirted for a free drink. Who cares about Mickey Mouse stuff like that? I know she’s mine, just as she knows I’m hers. It may be hard to explain, but when you have such a deep connection for almost 2 decades, and have children together, it just is.

    At any rate, I already said if she ever cheated on me of course I would forgive her. And for saying that, of course I got called “Cuck!” for my trouble. But I can’t help it that I don’t live in terror that some guy with a big dick is gonna come along and f@ck my wife, unlike many folks on here. So I would forgive her, take her to Confession, and that would be it. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t see it as that big a deal. And like I said above, she certainly didn’t see it that way either when it was me. So maybe that’s another reason we’re a good match – that we don’t get all upset at the thought of our spouse cheating? I don’t know…I’m not a marriage counselor or shrink.

    Anyway, women tend to cheat more for emotional reasons or problems in the marriages (men will cheat even in a happy marriage, just to score a hot piece of tail). And I know she’s happy in the marriage and views me as sort of the male version of a NAWALT – she feels like there are hardly any “real men” left out there today, and she’s always saying how she “got the last one” and I “better not go anywhere” or she’ll track me down and put in concrete shoes any “hussy” that I’ve “taken up with”.

    So I just don’t see cheating as something on her plate. But again, I really don’t spend any time worrying about it.

    One last thing. To answer some questions: married in 2001. We dated for six months, then had a six month engagement. So we were married about 13 months from the day we met…I take it that’s considered fast nowadays. We never lived together before marriage, I was around 30, she was 24 when we met. Although not an actual virgin, she was sexually inexperienced with a low N (didn’t lose her virginity till age 21). She had never lived with a guy – still lived at home with her parents while we dated and were engaged. Don’t know if any of this info helps or not.

    P.S. You talk about decent looking, financially stable, professional men who can’t find any dates, and this is the normal state of affairs. I have to tell you, not in my experience. And it’s not just me…all my friends always had girlfriends or wives. I’ve known many women who end up alone and can’t find boyfriends or husbands…but only very rarely have I seen it with men. Right now I can only think of one, a cousin of mine, but in his case he’s very obese. So you have an explaining factor there. He’s in his 60’s now, a lifelong bachelor, and I don’t remember him ever having a girlfriend or even a date. But like I said, he’s the only male I know in that boat. Whereas I know at least five women (that I can think of right now) in that boat. One is an ex-gf of mine – she wanted to marry me, I dumped her. She has been living alone for decades and I don’t think she’s had a date in 15 years.

    It happens a lot to women, trust me. And they don’t have to be 300 lbs (my ex certainly wasn’t – I’ve never been into fat chicks, lol)

  439. earlthomas786 says:

    In all seriousness, what should a girl say when she is NOT interested?

    She can say ‘I’m not interested’. I’ve had that line told to me before and I appreciated that honesty more than ‘let’s just be friends’.

  440. earlthomas786 says:

    I would not marry a woman who didn’t feel that way, and I can’t understand the mindset of anyone who would.

    I wouldn’t either…the part that is getting harder (but not impossible) is to find is a woman who knows, feels, or gets that she is to submit in marriage after they’ve been fed a lot of rebellious ideas about it. I’ve dated and be in relationships with a few…but they didn’t hang around long enough to stick the landing.

  441. feeriker says:

    But, being a woman, she soft pedaled it because she didn’t want to look like a bitch and she wanted to preserve his feelings

    Dunno about that. IME, most women who are not attacted to a man couldn’t care less about his feelings. In fact, they usually don their most hideous bitch costume for him.

  442. feeriker says:

    @ Original Laura:

    In all seriousness, what should a girl say when she is NOT interested? The girl quoted above seems to me to have made a good effort to avoid a “nuclear rejection,”

    A “nuclear rejection” isn’t in the message itself; it’s in the manner in which it’s delivered.

    A women can politely but firmly tell a man: “No, thank you. I’m flattered by your interest, but I really just don’t feel a connection with you.”

    Over. Fixed. Done.

    A nuclear rejection, OTOH, is where she responds, in a 100-decible scream, in front of God and everybody, with “OH, GAWD, GROSS! GET AWAY FROM ME, YOU PERV! I’LL TURN DYKE BEFORE I’LL EVER GO ON A DATE WITH YOU!!!!!”

    The less attracted a woman is to man, the more strongly she feels that he’s beneath her, the quicker she is to reach for the nuclear trigger.

  443. Pingback: This Week In Reaction (2017/10/07) - Social Matter

  444. earlthomas786 says:

    A women can politely but firmly tell a man: “No, thank you. I’m flattered by your interest, but I really just don’t feel a connection with you.”

    Yeah, it’s that simple. If a man blows up because of something like that…then she made the right decision because he is an emotional basketcase.

    Besides what retort can a man give to that? Some men may not get it and still try so she just repeats it, but I never saw any point continuing it if she’s not on board.

  445. earlthomas786 says:

    She knows that she isn’t interested, and she tells the guy directly and privately in a way that makes it possible for them to still be on speaking terms when they run into each other at church, etc.

    And this is another thing I don’t know if a woman comprehends unless she’s actually in that moment…but other than perhaps saying ‘hi’ and stringing a couple one word answers together, you aren’t on good speaking terms because she will always remember the feeling she has for the guy.

    One of the most classic indicators I’ve got when I knew the relationship was going to end…sudden nuclear silence or she’s struggling to communicate after it was easy for her. Something has changed in her be it she found a new guy, she bounced the idea off her friends-sisters, or she prayed about it. I’ve had all three reasons happen to me. All I can say is thank goodness it happened before marriage instead of after.

  446. Jeff Strand says:

    Earl: “I wouldn’t either…the part that is getting harder (but not impossible) is to find is a woman who knows, feels, or gets that she is to submit in marriage after they’ve been fed a lot of rebellious ideas about it”

    Agreed. However, the Surrendered Wife movement gives one some hope. Also, parents should raise their daughters specifically with the mindset that they are to submit to their future husbands (Mrs. Strand and I are doing this with our girls)

    I would also recommend any young lady check out “Peaceful Wife” on YouTube, she’s got a lot of good vids on this topic of being a submissive, surrendered wife (and the happiness and joy it brings to her marriage)

    For the men, (and I know I’m preaching to the choir here) it’s very simple: Don’t EVER fall for the BS that you should marry a “strong, independent” woman who “will challenge you”. You’d be better off to go into the wood chipper…feet first!

  447. feministhater says:

    At any rate, I already said if she ever cheated on me of course I would forgive her. And for saying that, of course I got called “Cuck!” for my trouble. But I can’t help it that I don’t live in terror that some guy with a big dick is gonna come along and f@ck my wife, unlike many folks on here. So I would forgive her, take her to Confession, and that would be it. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t see it as that big a deal. And like I said above, she certainly didn’t see it that way either when it was me. So maybe that’s another reason we’re a good match – that we don’t get all upset at the thought of our spouse cheating? I don’t know…I’m not a marriage counselor or shrink.

    Yes because what your explain is a cuck mind. A man who doesn’t mind if his wife is fucked by other men. It’s not that big a deal anyway. You said it yourself.

  448. earlthomas786 says:

    Don’t EVER fall for the BS that you should marry a “strong, independent” woman who “will challenge you”.

    That’s why, even though I pity those women, I don’t mind if they reveal themselves like that quickly. Gives me all I need to know to look somewhere else.

  449. Jeff Strand says:

    FH,

    You’re purposely putting words in my mouth. Which is an indication you know you’re full of schit. Otherwise, why would you have to do it?

    I never said “I don’t mind” if my wife cheated. Instead, I said that I would forgive her if she did, and that I don’t live my life in terror of the idea (like you and some other guys on here do). And yes, I said that I don’t really think it’s that big of a deal, in the end.

    You can disagree, that’s fine. But I’ll tell you this much, it’s not a “cuck mindset”. I’m just a very secure guy, in my own skin and my own sexuality. Unlike you, I’ve never had a problem getting women. (In the five years before I met my wife, I had 3 serious gf’s…all of whom wanted to marry me. It was my decision not to marry them. And in between those 3, I dated a bunch of other girls casually…sometimes for only one date – I didn’t feel it, so moved on. Always with the attitude that another will come along momentarily. There were times I literally had girls fighting over me, like actually theatening each other to stay away from me). Mrs. Strand was the first who was able to reel me in.

    I say this not to brag. Indeed, I don’t consider that record anything special; what I consider amazing is a guy saying he went decades without finding one girl to even date him! So I’m not bragging…just letting you know where I’m coming from. When it comes to women, I’ve always had a mindset of “plenty” rather than “famine”. So when I’m with a chick, I don’t ever worry about her leaving or cheating on me. Never have, never will. There’s always a hotter one out there anyway.

    And I think chicks can sense that, and I think they find it attractive. Maybe this helps explain your lack of success with women – they can clearly sense how absolutely terrified you are at the thought of being cheated on, aka “cucked”. You probably think every guy out there has a bigger dick, and the thought keeps you up at night. And that kind of insecurity bordering on neurosis is a real turn-off to women.

    Let me educate you a bit on women, maybe (if you’re willing to learn) this will help you. I was watching “Marco Polo” on streaming Netflix with the wife. Kids were upstairs in bed, so just me and her. She mentioned how hot she thought the lead actor was, that he gave her the tingles. Now how would a guy like you handle this? Probably get all butt hurt, insecure, angry or depressed, etc. You’d probably view it as a “shit test” and you’d respond by “putting her in her place”…which would just lead to a huge fight. Well done. A ruined evening.

    Here’s how I handled this little shit test. I said, “Oh, you think he’s hot? Are you getting a little worked up, you naughty girl! Well, come here…I have the cure for that.” And so I took her by the hand and took her into our downstairs guest bedroom. The TV show now forgotten, I proceeded to (as our British cousins would say) give her a jolly good rogering. The kind that left us both breathless and spent. Collapsed on top of each other, naked and sweaty. The exact opposite of a ruined evening.

    Afterwards, she kissed me and actually thanked me for “giving her such a good fucking”. And she mentioned how amazed she is that I know what she needs, more than even she herself does! This is why she says over and over how there are no real men left, and that she “got the last one”…so I “better not go anywhere”. Because if I take off with some hussy, she’ll see to it that little hussy is “never heard from again”. Which just makes me laugh…I think it’s cute how she’d fight for her man.

    So I hope you learned something here, my friend. That’s a microcosm of my marriage. And this little example gives you a good idea of how an insecure guy responds to such a shit test, versus a confident, alpha guy like me (meaning I exhibit alpha qualities, though I consider myself a Greater Beta, not an actual Alpha). Take from it what you will. But I hope you can recognize that I took her momentary attraction to another guy (even though an unattainable actor) and through the way I handled it, the whole episode just ended up recomfirming for her not only her love for me…but also how lucky she is to have me. Because deep down, I’m sure she knows many (most?) other guys would have responded in an insecure way, started a fight, and ruined the evening. And so she feels so lucky to NOT be with one of those insecure little bitches, but to be with her “real man”.

    Do you understand now why I don’t waste any time worrying about my wife cheating on me? That’s for insecure chumps.

  450. thedeti says:

    I don’t think it was that big of a deal to her. I certainly don’t think she saw it as any kind of betrayal.

    Then you are alpha AF, and there is literally nothing you can’t do in your marriage. You can do whatever you want, and your wife will forgive it.

    Most men are not married to women who feel that way about their husbands. And most men know it. Most men are on a short leash, totally in their wives’ frames, and can’t take a dump without asking their wives’ permission.

    Most women would see your cheating as the ultimate betrayal and would take you to the cleaners, and leave your skeleton on the courthouse steps stripped bare. Hell, my own mother said pretty much the same thing to me back when I was in high school: “I don’t know if your dad ever cheated on me, but if he ever did, I’d take him to the cleaners.” That’s a direct quote. I’ll never forget it.

    So I would forgive her [for cheating on me], take her to Confession, and that would be it. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t see it as that big a deal.

    Maybe so, and maybe that’s the way you see it, but I sure don’t see it that way, and neither did St. Paul. There’s no way, no way in hell, I’d stay with a wife who cheated. It IS a big deal, because in that moment, she decided you weren’t good enough and another man was better than you, so much so that she decided to give her most valuable asset to another man while she promised you that she wouldn’t. That’s a big deal. And it’s a dealbreaker.

  451. feministhater says:

    Sure man, whatever. Real man.

  452. feministhater says:

    Sorry deti, but he really is just another AMOGing git. He justified being a cuck, doesn’t realise it but that’s exactly what he did and still does. Taking advice from him is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Gents have been warned but it’s on them now if they listen.

  453. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jeff Strand
    I’m just a very secure guy, in my own skin and my own sexuality. Unlike you, I’ve never had a problem getting women.

    There’s the “natrual Alpha” mindset at work. Not all men are like Strand, but he can’t necessarily see that.

  454. feministhater says:

    You’re purposely putting words in my mouth. Which is an indication you know you’re full of schit. Otherwise, why would you have to do it?

    But I can’t help it that I don’t live in terror that some guy with a big dick is gonna come along and f@ck my wife, unlike many folks on here. So I would forgive her, take her to Confession, and that would be it. Maybe I’m weird, but I don’t see it as that big a deal. And like I said above, she certainly didn’t see it that way either when it was me. So maybe that’s another reason we’re a good match – that we don’t get all upset at the thought of our spouse cheating?

    No need to twist your words. Yes, you are literally ‘weird’ like that. I never once spoke about a man’s dick size, your own words give you away. Neither you or your wife take your vows seriously, so much so that neither of you get upset if the other party looks OUTSIDE the marriage to get their jollies on. That is the biggest betrayal that can happen in a marriage. It’s the exact reason why people get married.

    There is so much shit that can be brought into your life by a spouse cheating and you don’t think to care about it. No words you your mouth, everyone can read themselves.

  455. thedeti says:

    That quote I mentioned was kinda funny at the time but when I look back on it, it’s chilling.

    That’s my own mother, talking about my father, relating to her son her innermost thoughts and feelings about her marriage.

    That’s how she felt (and feels) about my dad, the man who’s been married to her for 50 years. The man who has shoveled a mountain of shit for her. (I’ve seen what he’s done for her. I’ve seen what he put up with for her. I lived with them for 20 years.) The man who has done literally everything for her, has literally thrown his own body on the gears of society for her.

    She ought to be thanking her lucky stars ANYONE would have stayed with her as long as he has. Instead, what does she say when married to him about 17 years in? She’s thinking about what she’d do to HER OWN HUSBAND if he betrayed her. She’s telling HER SON what she’ll do to HIS FATHER if he betrayed her.

    Unbelievable.

  456. earlthomas786 says:

    There’s the “natrual Alpha” mindset at work. Not all men are like Strand, but he can’t necessarily see that.

    If that’s the case…then even I have that mindset. It’s keeping them that proves to be difficult. I suppose it’s really their loss though.

  457. Anon says:

    thedeti,

    Then you are alpha AF, and there is literally nothing you can’t do in your marriage.

    It is much more likely that Jeff Strand has narrated a fiction. His primary goal is to ensure that his daughters get beta bux once they are done with 15 years on the carousel at age 33.

  458. Anonymous Reader says:

    Anon
    It is much more likely that Jeff Strand has narrated a fiction.

    What makes you think so?

    His primary goal is to ensure that his daughters get beta bux once they are done with 15 years on the carousel at age 33.

    Possibly. On the other hand, you could be assuming that based on your own, single, experience.

  459. earlthomas786 says:

    It IS a big deal, because in that moment, she decided you weren’t good enough and another man was better than you, so much so that she decided to give her most valuable asset to another man while she promised you that she wouldn’t. That’s a big deal. And it’s a dealbreaker.

    Put it this way… sure it’s a hypothetical but let’s say she does meet a Marco Polo tingle inducer actor in real life and he tries to seduce her…they could go to a hotel and nobody would ever have to know…does she stand by her man because she can’t do any better or does she follow her tingles and let him have his way with her. What she does says a lot about her. Let’s not be naive to think that serpents won’t try to seduce women even if they are loyal wives.

    From Jeff’s account I’d like to think she’d be loyal to him. He would know her better than we would.

  460. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    If that’s the case…then even I have that mindset. It’s keeping them that proves to be difficult.

    Alpha is situational. In the “nature vs. nurture” debate over Alpha I come down on the side of “both”; leadership can be learned. Not perfectly, perhaps, but “good enough”. There is such a thing as a “Christian Alpha”. You have the ability to be that man, Earl, it’s in there somewhere.

    “Keeping them that proves to be difficult” just means you aren’t quite consistent enough in your masculine, leadership, mindset yet.

  461. earlthomas786 says:

    “Keeping them that proves to be difficult” just means you aren’t quite consistent enough in your masculine, leadership, mindset yet.

    Perhaps…I’ve been told through the woman grapevine the women I ask out really like the fact I take charge and am direct. Odd part is I try not to change that mindset and then suddenly they don’t like it anymore. Beats me unless there’s something subtle I’m not getting or they just don’t get it yet.

  462. Jeff Strand says:

    Deti: “There’s no way, no way in hell, I’d stay with a wife who cheated. It IS a big deal, because in that moment, she decided you weren’t good enough and another man was better than you, so much so that she decided to give her most valuable asset to another man while she promised you that she wouldn’t. That’s a big deal. And it’s a dealbreaker.”

    I understand your opinion on this. We just don’t agree, that’s all. Different strokes for different folks. I typically enjoy your comments and have no ill will towards you, just because we disagree here. Hope you are able to view it the same way. Let’s just politely agree that we won’t change each other’s mind, and we can just “agree to disagree”. My way works for me, and I honestly hope your approach works for you.

    Also, regarding your comment that most men aren’t married to a wife like mine….I know, that’s why she’s a NAWALT. I argued earlier in the thread that NAWALT’s exist, not that they’re plentiful. Now, you can discard the example of her forgiving my cheating – I get that that’s perhaps a bit “extreme”, even for redpillers.

    But it also shows through in more mundane things. If I’m going fishing with the guys, I tell her…I never “ask permission.” If I decide it’s best for our family to downsize the house we live in, I tell her what I’ve decided and she answers “Whatever you think is best”. When I want sex, she makes sure she’s “always available” (within reason, such as illness…I’m not an a$$hole). She teaches our kids to respect me as the head of the household and breadwinner…and whenever some money is spent on them (for example, an optional school field trip) she will have them say to me, “Thank you Daddy.”

    When she was told by doctors that getting pregnant would be life threatening for her, she looked to me to make the decision whether to roll the dice – it may be her body, but I make the decisions regarding our family (I elected to “roll the dice” twice…and now we have 2 beautiful daughters. We wife came through the pregnancies with flying colors)

    Here’s my point – this is what it’s like in a marriage to a NAWALT. So before you let FH talk you out of ever getting married, stop and think about it. There’s a world of difference between being married to a feminist hag and being married to a NAWALT. When it comes to the former, you just don’t wife them up.

    So I would agree with FH if he said, “Don’t marry unless you find a NAWALT. And since there aren’t enough of them to go around, don’t be surprised if you can’t find one and so end up a lifelong bachelor.” But he isn’t saying that. Instead he’s saying there are no NAWALT’s at all; they don’t exist. And so no man should EVER marry. If he does, he’s a chump.

    I can’t agree with that. I know from experience that he’s wrong.

  463. feministhater says:

    So I would agree with FH if he said, “Don’t marry unless you find a NAWALT. And since there aren’t enough of them to go around, don’t be surprised if you can’t find one and so end up a lifelong bachelor.” But he isn’t saying that. Instead he’s saying there are no NAWALT’s at all; they don’t exist. And so no man should EVER marry. If he does, he’s a chump.

    I can’t agree with that. I know from experience that he’s wrong.

    There are no NAWALTS just as there are no perfect men. You’re stuck thinking a woman can be perfect. I’ve stated time and time again that AWALT in as much as they all have the options to be as bitching and naggy as they like. The difference now is the state, they have the power of the state to use against you. I will not take those odds. She as the power in the marriage and you have nothing but game. Before a woman could just nag a bit and make your life contentious, now she can call the police, remove your from your own house, cheat on you at will and destroy your life and your children’s life. That is far too much power, I will not play that game.

    So yes, I think no man should marry but I leave the choice up to them. There are no NAWALTS, they don’t exist. There are only those women who choose not to be feminist, bitchy or cheat on their husbands and choose to submit, for them moment…

    I don’t think they are chumps either as long as they have weighed up the costs in their mind and will deal with the consequences without bothering the rest of us when it comes crashing down, no more sympathy. Furthermore, I don’t agree with you, I know from experience that you’re wrong. See, that is easy, anecdotes count for shit.

  464. Jeff Strand says:

    FH,

    Well, there’s one point you make where we can agree – the power of the state that is unleashed against a man if his wife should choose to go down that road. This is the “threat point” that Dalrock has described that all husbands are living under nowadays. I agree this is intolerable.

    But look at it this way – your message that a young man should never marry is a very tough one to sell. Most young men want a family one day, and indeed the statistics show most men (and most women) will marry at some point.

    While you and I disagree on whether the risk of marriage is worth it in the case of a NAWALT, we certainly agree that men should not marry in other cases. No man in his right mind should marry a slut, a feminist, a “strong, independent, sarcastic” woman, etc. Why not focus on sending out that message? That is a lot more likely to be accepted by young men – after all, you’re still leaving them some hope.

    And you’d be doing them a solid. Again, most will marry anyway…but if you can reduce the number who are marrying the unsuitable prospects I described above, you will be greatly improving the odds for these men!

    And you know it matters. Look at it this way. I know you’re determined not to marry. But imagine I put a gun to your head, and forced you to marry. You have two choices – a mouthy, sluttly, aggressive feminist with a degree in Gender Studies who can discuss “Feminst Theory”…or a sweet, demure, soft-spoken, anti-feminist girl who looks forward to being a surrendered wife. Which do you choose? Are you honestly gonna tell us tou wouldn’t care which one you wifed up, because “all women are like that”? And so there’s no difference between them? No way.

    You would choose the NAWALT, because you know that doing so would give you the best odds. And that’s all I’m saying. There’s always a risk, there are no guarantees. But you can at least learn to reduce the risk as much as it lies within your power to do so. And IMHO, the best way to this (for all the young men who DO want a wife and children) is to be sure you ONLY marry a NAWALT. I mean, just getting the message “Don’t ever marry a feminist!” out there would do a lot of good.

    Don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good. That’s all I’m saying.

  465. Anonymous Reader says:

    Earl
    I’ve been told through the woman grapevine the women I ask out really like the fact I take charge and am direct. Odd part is I try not to change that mindset and then suddenly they don’t like it anymore.

    It could be that your mindset is changing unconsciously as you get more comfortable, so you look inconsistent to the woman; “well, he was masculine at first, then he got all Blue Pill on me”. Except they don’t think that way, of course. The just have feelze that change from “ooh” to “eeew”.

    Self-betaization is the worst betaization. Ask me how I know.

  466. earl says:

    It could be that your mindset is changing unconsciously as you get more comfortable, so you look inconsistent to the woman; “well, he was masculine at first, then he got all Blue Pill on me”. Except they don’t think that way, of course. The just have feelze that change from “ooh” to “eeew”.

    Self-betaization is the worst betaization. Ask me how I know.

    I think you’re onto something. You start getting a little softer with their tests…you start letting things slide a bit…you do things for her or open up a bit too much. There’s a fine line you have to walk.

    I think they had it right in the old days…you dealt with her father when it came to marriage and her feelings weren’t taken into consideration that much. This tightrope game of keeping her in the right feelings if you aren’t a natural alpha can be exhausting.

  467. earlthomas786 says:

    @Jeff

    ‘Do you understand now why I don’t waste any time worrying about my wife cheating on me?’

    I think what you are trying to get across is…either you rule your wife’s feeling or you are going to be ruled (or ruined) by them.

  468. Girlfielf says:

    Something I thought of recently is that a lot of good women get overlooked, because they don’t have the sexual shock-value of secular women. I think in some cases, it’s totally acceptable for such women to go on welfare. Might as well make the sluts pay for it, if they’re going to take all the jobs and all the guys.

    Besides, what does a Christian woman working prove, anyway? That women should go to work like guys? That the current system is a good one? Single moms are getting tax dollars paid for them and their offspring, and it’s much cheaper to fund a should-be tradwife.

    Behind every successful woman is a successful man. It’s either daddy or hubby. If a woman’s dad wants to see his daughter successful, or if a woman has her husband’s income to rely on, they feel as though they can take risks and act like work is a big game. They can act like women without resources are pee-ons. It’s not like feminism gets you either a husband OR a good job, it’s like you get either both or none.

    I say, make those women pay. And if their weak-willied husbands preferred the slutmeat, they can pay too.

    I don’t mean to say this like there aren’t good guys in church. I just know that your average church has fat, reformed sluts and weak, gayfaced betaboys. There are decent Christians of both sexes, but they’re kind of scattered around civilization. I’d rather a nice Christian girl got tax dollars to a system of creepy old liberal-leaning/ neocon ladies being the backbone of a “successful” society.

  469. earlthomas786 says:

    @Girlfielf

    Something I thought of recently is that a lot of good women get overlooked, because they don’t have the sexual shock-value of secular women.

    In my case, if I see the shock-value of secular women…that’s all I need to know to not pursue. Let them have the lack of backbone men.

    Christian women however have the same problems I’ve noticed as secular women do…basically they let hypergamy and feelings rule their decision making rather than apprecating that they have a good man who didn’t overlook them.

  470. feeriker says:

    Christian women however have the same problems I’ve noticed as secular women do…basically they let hypergamy and feelings rule their decision making rather than apprecating that they have a good man who didn’t overlook them.

    The more one sees this, the more obvious the reason as to why so many human societies have traditionally relied on the custom of arranged marriages. Women, the majority of them, are simply incapable of big-picture, long-term decision-making that is in their, or society as a whole’s best interests.

  471. earlthomas786 says:

    Women, the majority of them, are simply incapable of big-picture, long-term decision-making that is in their, or society as a whole’s best interests.

    For example…women wanting tax money because the world isn’t working out perfectly for them. Newsflash…the world isn’t ever going to be perfect because of the fall.

    Also they really should really focus their love on God, husband, and children instead of money…love of money is the root of all evil.

  472. Jason says:

    Jeff

    I know the “Peaceful Wife / Peaceful Single Girl” personally. Her advice is solid, but she also understands very well a deep submission to Christ and His will only. That comes before a husband. She has good advice for wives, and single Christian women. She also makes it clear that women should be receptive to a man who is pursuing Christ first.

    She never has mentioned that a man must be a “provider” (good income to support a family). She never has talked about men having “good game” nor has she ever purported that infidelity is okay.

  473. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason: “She never has mentioned that a man must be a “provider” (good income to support a family). She never has talked about men having “good game” nor has she ever purported that infidelity is okay.”

    I agree with her on infidelity; like her, I never said it was OK. What I said is that I have struggled with staying faithful, at times, in my marriage. And that my wife forgave me. Also, that I received sacramental forgiveness and absolution in the Sacrament of Penance, which was established by Our Lord Himself (as described at the end of the Gospel of St. John) specifically to be the ONLY ordinary remedy for those who, post-baptism, should have the misfortune to fall into a state of mortal sin.

    I further stated that with the effort I’ve been putting in, both in terms of avoiding temptation and working on maintaining a strong prayer life, I haven’t slipped in years now. And I hope to never do so again.

    I also stated that if my wife ever cheated on me (either in the past or the future), that there’s not a doubt in mind that I would forgive her. Just as she forgave me. Of course, that got me called a “Cuck!” for my trouble. What else can you expect from this board?

    As far as being a good provider, I’m relatively traditional (or old-fashioned, if you prefer) so I do see this as an important attribute for a husband/father. Just as I see good homemaking, child rearing, and domestic skills as important for a wife/mother.

    And “good game” to me is just a euphemism for being a good husband, in terms of making your wife feel feminine, attractive, loved, and desirable. It’s an embodiment of those masculine, positive traits in a man that will elicit such a response from your wife. I make no apologies for this. Indeed, I think “good game” goes a long ways towards maintaining a happy, successful marriage. So again, no apology here.

    Since you know “Peaceful Wife”, feel free to read her this and let us know her reaction…and if she agrees or disagrees. Also, please let her know that my wife and I are big fans of hers! May God bless her for the good work she’s doing, by helping people improve their marriages.

  474. Girlfielf says:

    Hm, “Christian women who are hypergamous” have maybe been on the “Christian” Cock Carousel.

  475. earl says:

    I think the concept of hypergamy is a feature in every woman, even the virgin ones…the carousel just pours gas on it. There is something to Paul saying we should be content in all circumstance because Jesus strengthens us.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4+%3A10-14&version=NASB

  476. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Christian women who are hypergamous” have maybe been on the “Christian” Cock Carousel.

    No. All women are hypergamous. What they do about it varies, but AWALT.

  477. seventiesjason says:

    @Jeff

    Thing is, Peaceful Wife was once a rebellious woman in her own marriage. You being a huge fan of hers though, you probably already knew this.

    I won’t speak for her but she would not like your attitude towards your fellow brothers on here. That I know. She would expect you as a man to be a bit more uplifting instead of being kind of a jerk to the rest of us because we don’t hold your exact views. She’s very Christ centered and balanced…and truly believes people can change for the better. Some of musings here are not Christ-like and to me….just come off as the “tough guy” who just likes to talk about how amazing he is and if the rest of us just did what you did. Everything would be perfect.

    Most married men don’t have what you have.

    You’re forgetting that most of us are not perfect like you are because you said a prayer for a mortal sin. Sin is sin….all sin, whatever it is will keep us from His presence. There are no shades or levels of sin.

  478. Girlfielf says:

    I’m not saying that it isn’t a feature of women to be hypergamous. I’m saying that when hypergamy is a big enough problem and no woman will date/ marry within a reasonable range (+1 to +2), that’s a sign of things having already come. If a husband is going to be a woman’s only sexual outlet, that does a thing or two to lower her expectations of men and get the process rolling. This is one of the benefits of maidenhood that the patriarchs once prized.

    You can argue that virgin women are equally hypergamous to tramps, but you have to look at the other side of that argument, which is that non-virgin women are just as hypergamous, so they must be better at pretending they aren’t. The women who “get” more will get married more often and sooner than virgins, although they desire Prince Charming just as desperately as do maidens. The difference is, the sleezers once knew a Prince Charming quite well. I find it hard to believe that a madonna would be so stirred by an empty dream between her ears as a whore was by a royal stirrer between her legs.

    But more on the topic of what I’m actually saying, there is a point where at hypergamy doesn’t even matter because everyone at church is so fat and so soy and so toxic androgyny, that even with hypergamy in full-gear, no one is attracted to their partner. It’s kind of a loserfest, to be honest. There are still normal, good people out there. It’s just hard for them to meet each other, because church has become more of a bastion for bizarros and the weird in spirit.

    OkCupid did a test and confirmed the 80/20 rule. The top 80% of women were attracted to the top 20% of men. Likewise, the bottom 80% of men messaged the bottom 20% of women. Churches tend to have the bottom 20% of women and the bottom 20% of men. They even come with Christian SJWs, the most cringesome creature on the planet.

  479. Anonymous Reader says:

    Girlfielf

    I’m saying that when hypergamy is a big enough problem and no woman will date/ marry within a reasonable range (+1 to +2), that’s a sign of things having already come.

    Not necessarily, no. Girls who are only carousel watchers can easily build a 431 bullet point checklist that no living man can meet, only to be wowed by a man who is alpha-enough for her.

    Hypergamy in this context refers to the innate female demand for “the best man I can get”, within whatever range of “get” exists. Absolute “kissed dating goodbye” living-with-the-parents while working in the family job virgin girls have hypergamy. So do sluts.

    Again, all women are hypergamous. It is a feature, not a bug, of the female mind. What any individual woman does about it is up to her and those around her. This is not debatable.

    Incidentally, hypergamy is an issue within marriage when a woman “settles” as most will.

    I find it hard to believe that a madonna would be so stirred by an empty dream between her ears as a whore was by a royal stirrer between her legs.

    Why do you find that difficult to believe? Who buys all those romance novels that stir women between the ears and elsewhere? Let’s go look at the smartphones of 20 year old chuch going women and see what they’ve downloaded from Goodreads and Amazon, shall we?

    OkCupid did a test and confirmed the 80/20 rule.

    Yes, that’s both at the OKC blog and in the book as well. It’s been confrmed with Tumbler data also. The 80/20 rule is both local and global in scope. It applies within a church of 50 or on all of OKC.

    It’s a reality. What people do with that fact is up to them.

  480. Girlfielf says:

    You know, it wouldn’t hurt to lift is all I’m saying. That’s only one point.

  481. Girlfielf says:

    My list:

    – lift
    – don’t sperg
    – have similar interests
    – my age – 10 years+

  482. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Girlfielf,

    There’s no need for singles to be trying to mingle at church, forget about it. The spiritual values of the vast majority of church’s are questionable at best but if the social connection is of any consequence to a person >dating at church is dangerous<. Especially for men.

    Christians, like everybody else, should be meeting online. It's a skill that can be mastered like any other. It takes a little study, time and effort. I think I have mastered the skill. I meet women locally and I've traveled the country meeting Christian women ( you know who you are 😉 If you're dateable in church then you can meet people online.

    People complain about their "internet dates" because often it doesn't work out. Dates, relationships, marriages often don't work out regardless of where they start. Relationships are hard no matter what. If you have a church you can tolerate, don't date people from unless the connection is so great you don't care about that church.

  483. Anonymous Reader says:

    Girlfielf

    You know, it wouldn’t hurt to lift is all I’m saying. That’s only one point.

    That’s been standard advice in the androsphere for a while. But it is surely helpful for young men to hear / read it from women as well.

    – lift
    – don’t sperg
    – have similar interests

    Point 2 and point 3 may be mutually contradictory. I know of a couple of nerd gamers who married. True, he is the bigger sperg, but still…

    – my age – 10 years+

    That arithmetic is complicated. “my age minus 10-plus years” is not clear.
    However, women as a rule don’t want to participate in the building up of a man, they want one ready and complete, hence the typical age gap of 4+ years.

    Although frankly, given the way a lot of 20-something late Millennial men have been beaten down by the K-12 school system, the university system and yes, the churches — it does not surprise me when I see 20-something women going for men in the late 30’s. Or even older.

  484. Embracing Reality says:

    Lift? Lol.. It doesn’t hurt?

    If it doesn’t hurt to lift then they’re not doing it right. Girlfielf, do you lift? Do you have even the vaguest clue what it takes the average man to build moderate musculature if he’s not naturally athletic? No, you don’t. First, it has to be treated like a part time job. Every 48 hours train to failure of all major muscle groups. Lift until it stings, then lift some more. Squats until your scared your going to lose the bar, benches until you don’t dare risk one more then grab the dumbells. No pain no gains. Wait about an hour then eat your carefully planned diet, every 2 hours. Wake up in the middle of the night and drink a protein shake. Lift. Heh, yeah.. Women, lol..

  485. Embracing Reality says:

    Shortcut: Don’t lift. Focus on acquiring currency in substantial quantities. Women will follow, resist. Focus on acquiring currency as long as possible. You’ll thank me later, promise you!

  486. Anon says:

    The Harvey Weinstein circus has once again exposed the frauds in the ‘sphere.

    The anti-semite manginas who call themselves ‘WNs’ are jumping in glee to condemn Harvey Weinstein as though what has happened here is just as bad as Rotherham. They cannot contain their delight, and are quick to whiteknight for even the most left-wing actresses. Never mind that the same actresses are quick to bash their beloved Trump in every sentence while trying to talk about Harvey Weinstein. White Nationalism really is a goddess cult.

    The proper red-pillers correctly recognize that unless actual rape has occurred (which has not been alleged yet, and even then, it better not be an FRA), these actresses deserve minimal to no sympathy. They are lefties themselves, almost all sluts, and almost all are post-wall and hence can no longer earn anywhere close to what they used to. Almost all of his accusers are over 45.

    Again, outside of rape, these actresses deserve little to no sympathy.

  487. Anonymous Reader says:

    Embracing Reality
    [Complicated weight training deleted]

    This is not really necessary for the ordinary man who isn’t intending to enter competition. High Intensity training would work as well, but that’s another rabbit trail to run dowm some other time.

    It’s well known that working the upper body muscles increases testosterone, and given the somewhat toxic environment now every man needs the T. Soy here, bisphenol there, estrognics over there. Men in their 20’s need to lift, even just free weights at home. Pick heavy stuff up around the house. The body is meant to work, work it.

    Shortcut: Don’t lift. Focus on acquiring currency in substantial quantities.

    Money is not everything. Sometimes it even gets in the way. Weinstein has a lot of money…

  488. Opus says:

    Am in entire agreement with Anon as to Harvey Weinstein who i suggest play the J-card. I can almost smell the Hypocricy. I was informed two days ago that Judi Dench had chimed in with her condemnation of the man. It is perhaps worth remembering that (good actress though she is or was) in the 1968 movie of Midsummer Nights Dream and in a cast that also included Helen Mirren and Diana Rigg – all these women for some unexplained reason now preface their names with the word Dame – the only to get her kit off was Dench. I don’t recall any stage direction in Shakespeare as to stripping and exit pursued by a bear is spelt that way and not bare though that is how these female thespians carry on and then like true feminists on reaching an age no one wants to look at their saggy tits cry Raaaaype.

    This is Heterophobia.

  489. Don Quixote says:

    seventiesjason says:
    October 12, 2017 at 9:04 pm

    You’re forgetting that most of us are not perfect like you are because you said a prayer for a mortal sin. Sin is sin….all sin, whatever it is will keep us from His presence. There are no shades or levels of sin.

    I know your comments weren’t directed to me but if I might add the following:
    Jesus said to the pharisees: “you strain out gnats and swallow camels”. Referring to paying tithes of their garden produce and then ripping off widows. IOWs little sins and big sins respectively.
    Jesus also said to Pilate: “…therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
    There are other examples in John’s letters also, this is what Jeff is referring to.

  490. earlthomas786 says:

    My list:

    – lift
    – don’t sperg
    – have similar interests
    – my age – 10 years+

    The problem is not the list…the problem for women is even if they get let’s say 51-80% of their list in a man they eventually think ‘Is this the best I can get?’

    Then they find themselves priced out of the husband store because they were always looking for more.

  491. earlthomas786 says:

    It’s well known that working the upper body muscles increases testosterone, and given the somewhat toxic environment now every man needs the T.

    Squats too…they’re not fun but it keeps the ‘dad bod’ at bay.

    My primary reason for lifting is not for attracting women…my reason is if there’s some degenerate who wants to go, I want them to think twice when they see my physique. They often target weak men for a reason.

  492. Embracing Reality says:

    @ earlthomas,

    Right! Squats are critical for stimulating T, if that’s your goal. Playing around with some weights won’t get most guys anywhere. I still say money$ are a more effective focus. Weinstein had stunning women because of his money and he looks like a hairy pig. His current problems aren’t related to a lack of weight training..

    You need a conceal carry permit and a .45 auto. You’d hate to miss a chance to take out some trash someday.

  493. earlthomas786 says:

    Weinstein had stunning women because of his money and he looks like a hairy pig. His current problems aren’t related to a lack of weight training..

    Not really…he had to go ‘do you know who I am’ and desperate ‘give me a massage’ game to get those women. The audio of him trying to coerce that model was creepy bordering on desperate. Money doesn’t buy confidence.

  494. Girlfielf says:

    *My age through ten years older

  495. Girlfielf says:

    “Shortcut: Don’t lift. Focus on acquiring currency in substantial quantities. Women will follow, resist. Focus on acquiring currency as long as possible. You’ll thank me later, promise you!”

    Let me know how that works for you.

  496. Girlfielf says:

    Alright, earl. That’s not fair implying that I’m 51 just because I don’t want to date a sperg. No offense to spergs. I’m still in my twenties. Maybe I’m “old”, but I’m not like sad old.

  497. earl says:

    That’s not fair implying that I’m 51 just because I don’t want to date a sperg.

    I was being generous…usually it’s 60 year old women or older who think that way.

  498. Girlfielf says:

    I mean, spergs are ideal.

  499. Gunner Q says:

    Anon @ 12:06 am:
    “The anti-semite manginas who call themselves ‘WNs’ are jumping in glee to condemn Harvey Weinstein as though what has happened here is just as bad as Rotherham. They cannot contain their delight, and are quick to whiteknight for even the most left-wing actresses.”

    There are Jews and there are Jewish Hollywood Elites with ties to the Clinton Foundation who poison our culture for a dollar. The latter are safe to hate.

    So many decent men have been ruined by these witches that it feels very good to watch them sic on a man who deserves it.

  500. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Girlfielf,

    In my forties and financially well off to the point I could easily retire, it’s been working fantastic! As for the attractive women I date in their thirties, it’s clear to me money is way more important to them than athleticism. Admittedly I’m basically fit and 6’3″ but I’m not particularly muscular.

    Don’t miss the point!

    The financial success I’ve achieved was for me! Not to impress simple minded women who watch too much tv. The fact that hypergamous females are attracted to a man’s resources is merely a side benefit of minimal importance.

    Do you really think a man in his 30’s, 40’s or beyond, working a job he doesn’t really like (or hates) is going to look back and wish he lifted more? Do you think that, Sweetie?

  501. Jason says:

    Embracing Reality

    The answer is “no”

    Men our age, in our situation, must understand that we have to watch the weight, and see the doctor, get that check-up…..quit cigarette smoking (I did back in 2011)……..we can’t eat a box of donuts for dinner as much as we used to……..we’ve come this far alone …and I don’t know about you but my life lately (since 2010 or so) has actually been pretty good. Debt is gone. The big purchases are done for the time being (durable goods), I look decent physically (not HOT, but slender, light muscles, still tall!), I got serious hobbies that require many attributes. Prayer life. I also understand that IF I did get involved with a woman. She would be five-seven years younger than myself tops and have her priorities set. I don’t waste my time “pursuing” or “winning her heart” or “guarding her heart” for just getting a date which will ten times out of ten probably go nowhere. She would have to have a few matching hobbies (dancing or camping, hiking) and if she has children………they are on their way out of the house.

    Are they banging down my door? No. Are they fighting over to date me? No. Are they noticing me? No.

    So there really is no reason to lose sleep, time or letting the world “steal” my joy in life now.

  502. feeriker says:

    Not really…he had to go ‘do you know who I am’ and desperate ‘give me a massage’ game to get those women. The audio of him trying to coerce that model was creepy bordering on desperate. Money doesn’t buy confidence.

    That these women were so vain and desperate for a (very unlikely to succeed) shot at fame that they would compromise themselves and give in to this sleazeball pig’s demands makes them unworthy of ANY sympathy whatsoever. If they didn’t realize ahead of time that “casting couch calls” are part of the process, then they must have either been living in an alternate universe or suffer from profound mental retardation (in which case they shouldn’t be permitted to be living as inependent adults). If they knew but didn’t care, or were willing to pay the fare anyway, then this whole Weinstein stink shouldn’t be happening at all.

    Bottom line: anybody who makes it a life aspiration to be a denizen of the moral septic tank that is Hollywood deserves Harvey Weinstein. He and his (((ilk))) ARE Hollywood and always have been. There is ZE-RO excuse for anyone not to know that by now and be prepared to live with it accordingly if they insist on being part of that world.

  503. Embracing Reality says:

    Jason,

    Yes, we must take care of our health, including our spiritual health. Money is how we pay for everything, we must take care of that too. It’s a long list. A woman would just be one more on the list to take care of. That’s what they want, to be taken care of. They’re not looking to take care of a man these days. It’s a one way give and take in most relationships. The man gives and the women take, it’s pathetic honestly.

    I’ve abandoned hobbies and now focus on building wealth, real estate mostly, stock market some. Hopefully it doesn’t seem I’m boasting. Just trying to demonstrate what a man can accomplish in life besides wasting it on hypergamous silly church girls or sluts or women who are both. I’m going to retire soon and travel the country. Looking for a good place to land and finish the second half of life in peace. Finding a decent woman has been elusive to me and I’ve dated many! They can never steal my joy, unless I marry one. I worry then they’ll steal mt money too!

  504. Jason says:

    Wealth comes and goes…….I am slowly building up my Roth IRA from my IBM days, holding on to my stock from back then. Nothing to retire on, but a decent block of shares I own. At this moment, if I lost my job tomorrow I would be okay. I could rent a room somewhere, pay the phone bill, laundry, food, and haircuts is all I would need to budget for. Sure, a storage unit to throw stuff in………but I have no debt. No car payments. No credit card, loans…….for a guy on the ‘wage slave’ level (I make a hair above minimum wage) I’m doing quite well.

    My future plans are to move to a small mountain town in the Sierra Nevadas here in California, or if the “right” job came about…..I would move back to my native New York State into The Adirondack park in some small hamlet, town or village.

    No, I took your reply as not boasting 😉

  505. Spacetraveller says:

    Jason,

    Thanks for your comment upthread directed at me.
    No need to thank me for praying. It’s one of my relatvely new-found talents in life! I have realised that my prayers actually do get answered eventually, even if it seems like forever sometimes…

    Your point about not getting considered precisely because you have no baggage strikes me as a bit odd, and has, for many years. One of my 631-point checklist when I was single was…precisely a man like you with little or no baggage, someone like…me, essentially.
    I didn’t want someone who had already married (in any case, as a Catholic this was ‘verboten’), but also just for the fact that I really wanted to share all the milestones in life with someone who was also experiencing them for the first time too…and not had all these experiences with someone else before…I suppose I would have made exceptions for a widower had I met any, I think.

    But somehow for many of my fellow women, this was/is not essential. I always used to marvel at how they would swoon about their latest ‘love’, and he would be a father-of-3…I didn’t get it. Still don’t.

    It’s all so strange, in my opinion.

    Anyhow, when you do meet a woman worth your time and love, she WILL be the kind who will appreciate your lack of baggage, and actually treasure it, as opposed to deride it.

    Go on, ask me how I know. 🙂

  506. Jason says:

    I am sure she will Spacetraveler……

    However……….I will not be the guy who is 49, 51, 53, 65, 72, or 75 who is still waiting to meet this amazing woman. I have witnessed enough single, never married men who *think* and *believe* she is “just right around the corner”

    I have seen pastors and the like “feed” into this mindset of these men, and its really not healthy or right to do so. They feed it to me, “God is just taking his time and is going to deliver an amazing woman to you.”

    I don’t believe that. I believe marriage and the like can be blessed by God. I believe God uses people. I believe that our lives do have meaning….married or not. I don’t believe that God just is “taking His time to prepare, bring and show me this woman”

    The Christian women I know want a provider, with good looks, humor, style, looked at as a leader with envy from other women in the church, been on a billion mission trips……while she herself has to be accepted “for who she is”

    No women seem to be interested, and I guess I can’t blame them. I wish things were different, or I was everything that ‘Jeff Strand’ person is….but I’m not. I have made vast improvements in my life over the past decade and I have not felt this good about myself since I had a full head of blonde hair. I do know if I met someone……I would be willing, but I am not going to be the man to “fix” her poor life choices.

  507. Otto Lamp says:

    “God is just taking his time and is going to deliver an amazing woman to you.”

    God gave Hosea a prostitute.

    The idea that God is going to give you the perfect mate is a variant on the prosperity gospel–a heresy.

  508. Jeff Strand says:

    Jason: “Sin is sin….all sin, whatever it is will keep us from His presence. There are no shades or levels of sin.”

    Incorrect, not to mention heretical.

    There is mortal sin and there is venial sin (and also imperfections, which are not actually sins but still something a conscientious person will try to work on minimizing)

    The difference is that mortal sin destroys the sanctifying grace in the soul (that was infilled into the soul at baptism), To die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin is to be lost, so it’s a pretty big deal. And as I said earlier, Our Lord Himself established the Sacrament of Penance as a great act of mercy on His part…which sacrament is the only ordinary remedy for the baptized who should have the misfortune to fall into a state of mortal sin. Our Lord made it clear during His public ministry that He had the power to forgive men their sins…and as you can see described at the end of the Gospel of St. John, after His Resurrection He gave this power to the Apostles, and they in turn through the laying on of hands passed on this power to their successor bishops.

    But again, mortal sin and venial sin are two different things.

  509. Jason says:

    The Savior never used the term “mortal sin” and “venial sin”

    Calling me “heretical” is a hoot as well. Don’t use terms on me that you use on your wife and daughters

  510. Jason says:

    Where are the terms pennace, sanctifying grace, and the other gobbly-gook you use in The Bible???

  511. Embracing Reality says:

    Jason, a short retort to an offer of theological debate? Good show sir! Well played 😊

  512. Embracing Reality says:

    @ Otto Lamp, Yes, And to hell with the prosperity gospel! It’s the most harmful thing to come out of the church since greasy grace. Aside from the idolatry of worshiping women that is…

  513. Jason says:

    Seriously likes….not being a jerk

    Everyone tells me how simple and basic and logical His way is, and for the most part it is. I get that, and also I am a man of an AVERAGE IQ (I don’t lie about mine) so I am not going to fully and fastly comprehend all these other religiouese terms and what they mean and when.

    Christ said He would the foolish to shame the wise.

    He also while on The Cross being crucified didn’t stop the crucifixtion, take the thief off the cross, find the River Jordon, and ‘baptize’ him got back up on the cross and “let the crucifixtion continue” so the thief could be “In paradise with Him” upon death (people get so mad at me because I have never been baptized. It doesn’t get one into heaven)

  514. earlthomas786 says:

    “God is just taking his time and is going to deliver an amazing woman to you.”

    He already did…the Virgin Mary. Jesus gave his mother to us.

    http://biblehub.com/john/19-27.htm

    Now while a mother isn’t the same relationship as a wife that doesn’t mean she isn’t an amazing woman.

  515. Jason says:

    No dissenting view on that earl! 🙂

  516. feeriker says:

    God gave Hosea a prostitute.

    He did so for a very specific reason. Bad example from which to generalize for other men.

    But you’re otherwise correct; the idea of a “perfect mate” (a varient of the “soul mate” nonsense), like the “Prosperity Gospel” from which it derives, has done more to pervert (and subvert) Christian marriage than everything other than no-fault divorce.

  517. Spacetraveller says:

    Jason,
    I choose my words carefully in general, and specifically when writing here, because I understand how much frustration careless wording can cause. Note I never said anything about ‘perfect’ or ‘amazing’ anything, least of all as a life partner. We all know that is a fallacy, so the pastors who tell you these things are either lying or buttering you up for some other reason, yes.

    But what they are saying to you ISN’T what *I* am saying.

    In my comment above I say 2 specific things:

    The first is, God usually answers my prayers. Sure, you can always conclude that I am deluded, that is fine, and by the way, you wouldn’t be the first! 🙂
    By being hopeful on your behalf on a subject you would rather not be drawn on, releases you from the arduous task of remaining hopeful for yourself on ths specific issue. And I know it can be aruduous, so I take that burden away from you by telling you that I am relentlessly carrying on the hope thing long after you have decided on a different path which is necessary to keep you sane and not focussed on what is ‘missing’. You follow???
    There is absolutely no obligation on your part to keep up with what I am doing on your behalf. In fact, it IS better to dismiss me as a crazy nuisance and live your life in peace. 🙂
    I, for my part shall not pester you wth daily updates on my clandestine activities on your behalf. I absolve you of all obligations to indulge my silly utterances. 🙂

    The second point I make is one I strictly speaking did not actually NEED to make, because it is really a case of ‘stating the obvious’. Any woman who would become interested in you would BY DEFINITION be someone who would have to think that your lack of baggage IS a good thing, otherwise they wouldn’t be interested in you, right? Her seeing your ‘singleness’ as opposed to ‘divorced status’ as ‘optimal’ in fact HAS to be a necessary criterion for YOU to be interested in her too, wouldn’t you say?
    So in other words, you wouldn’t join a club that wouldn’t have you as a member, would you?

    No ‘perfect’, ‘amazing’, ”soul-mate snake oil stuff.
    As it happens, I DO believe in ‘soul-mates’ but not in the same sense that some commenters here see it. I also regard ‘hypergamy’ as completely acceptable and normal behaviour in a woman.
    But alas, the connection between these two concepts and my general disagreement with Manosphere denizens is this: Definition.
    A woman SHOULD accept and indeed encourage ‘interest’ from the *highest* order man she can achieve (and of course what ‘highest’ means depends on her), and then, basta! Stick with him (who is now the one and only/soul-mate) till death us do part. So my definition of ‘hypergamy’ and ‘soul-mate’ differs wildly fom that of the Manosphere. The monkey-branch swinging that *is* labelled ‘hypergamy’ in the ‘sphere is in my eyes, actually not a normal phenomenon in women. It is a modern disease, which is simply encouraged by our current cultural catastrophy. But anyway, I digress.

    But what I never associate with even the soul-mate is….perfection.
    Only God is perfect. The rest of us are chasing after this ideal our whole life. For you men, you are chasing Christ’s example, for us ladies (well, at least the Catholic ones like me) it is Our Lady’s example of beautiful womanhood/motherhood/wise (female) elder.

    All of this extra-long rant just to explain to you that I was NOT saying what you thought I was saying.
    And thereby wishing/hoping we’re still cool. 🙂

    Peace.

  518. Jason says:

    Spacetraveller……

    I follow you and yet….I don’t get what you mean. First and foremost…….we’re cool. I didn’t see anything to think that we were not!

    I had to “give up” looking for my own sanity. After becoming a Christian, every pursuit or interest was always met with the: “I want to be just friends / don’t feel a spark / wait on God / you’re a great guy but…… / your friend and I have sooooo much in common, could you introduce him to me? please???? You’re the best! / I’m dating Jesus / you’re trying too hard / what? you’re giving up!!!! Why? You are such an awesome guy, we girls don’t bite…you have to just ask us, and keep trying!

    I am not making this into a pity party. I came to terms that I don’t have “it” and “it” seems to change daily with the wind. In the secular world, in which I lived most of my life…..it was the same, except the women were a bit more rude in their declines of my interest (San Francisco is the rudest place in California)

    I have come to terms with the fact that: I don’t make a good living at my age. I may think I look okay, but the women must think me ugly. There is nothing I can do about this. God made me ugly, or unattractive on a societal level. It’s not being cruel to myself. It’s accepting truth, facts, and reality………

    And I’ve been alone my whole life, it’s not as if I ever had a woman, or had that endearment. Maybe if I had, my opinion would be different. I don’t know. If I had never got into drugs or drink maybe I might have met someone when at least I was a bit younger. I can’t answer these questions. There was never a woman or girl dropping hints that she liked me, or wanted to hang with me…….

    I’ve racked my brain. I am not mad, angry or upset at women anymore…..and have not been for a very long time……..I just sometimes………….seeing a couple on the street holding hands, any age. Seeing a father with his son or daughter. All my college friends have been married, and divorced, and re-married / living with someone……….all have kids now going into college, or are cresting on that point.

    I missed out. I can’t blame anyone but myself now……my looks, my financial status at my age…..my past choices……….I live with this now. I deal with it. It hurts. It’s not fair………

    But I have not turned back to cocaine, or alcohol. I have not grown so cold and angry towards women…………..I have not renounced my growth in Christ. I never viewed Him as someone who just answers prayers. Sometimes He says “no”

    I do find myself wanting to move to a small mountain town, working in a pizza shop or gas station……then hiking, camping, with most of my free time an sitting on the back porch of where ever I am renting….and just enjoying the silence………..

    I get more upset and annoyed at men who have zero problem dating or finding love and then telling me I have no motivation / no game / nothing to offer which just wasn’t true back when I was younger………and its not true now.

  519. Boxer says:

    I missed out. I can’t blame anyone but myself now……my looks, my financial status at my age…..my past choices……….I live with this now. I deal with it. It hurts. It’s not fair………

    I would argue that you missed out on a whole lotta trouble, expense, unnecessary nonsense and the like… but it wouldn’t do any good. The grass is always greener and all that.

    You do seem happy (or at least content) now, which is something that no one can take away from you.

  520. Boxer says:

    Jason:

    I get more upset and annoyed at men who have zero problem dating or finding love and then telling me I have no motivation / no game / nothing to offer which just wasn’t true back when I was younger………and its not true now.

    PUA’s tell themselves lots of pretty lies (despite their slogan). The first is that whoring around doesn’t harm men psychologically (it does). The second is that everyone can pick up women, if only he does x, y, …

    The PUA stuff did work for me. I can’t ever deny that. Even so, I was able to get women into bed before finding and applying the PUA stuff. There are guys like Eliot Rodger who seem to be good lookin’, have money, etc. Why are they incels? Women were willing to sleep with me when I had no car, was working for minimum wage, and dressed like crap 100% of the time. This is something I can’t explain.

    In the end, women are unpredictable. This is true for both individual women and collectively also. There are going to be guys they don’t want to have sex with. From my perspective, they’re the fortunate ones.

    Boxer

  521. earlthomas786 says:

    I had to “give up” looking for my own sanity. After becoming a Christian, every pursuit or interest was always met with the: “I want to be just friends / don’t feel a spark / wait on God / you’re a great guy but…… / your friend and I have sooooo much in common, could you introduce him to me? please???? You’re the best! / I’m dating Jesus / you’re trying too hard / what? you’re giving up!!!! Why? You are such an awesome guy, we girls don’t bite…you have to just ask us, and keep trying!

    I’ve heard those too…they aren’t fun, but it’s better they reveal what direction they are going rather than you not trying.

    There’s a similar parallel to that and today’s Gospel. The parable of the wedding banquet.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A+1-14&version=NASB

    The parallel is…people will find excuses to get out of anything, even those invited, only a few will actually accept the invitation and be chosen.

  522. Spacetraveller says:

    Jason,
    Glad we’re cool.
    No worries if you don’t ‘get’ what I was saying in my earlier comment. I tend to ramble anyway, and sometimes even I don’t get what I am trying to say, lol.

    But I think Boxer above touches on something important – and this is why I am (all said and done) so happy for your sense of contentment. We should all be happy with where we are, at the end of the day, taking the good with the bad in whatever station we are at.
    Boxer says you may well have missed out on the bad stuff associated with relationships/marriage. Agreed.
    That father you saw with his son? – he may only just have been awarded a paltry 10 minute ‘visitation’ whereby some social worker is observing his every move from a distance, after his messy divorce, and the kid is not really sure who this man is, not having seen him for a few months while Daddy was in jail for some made-up abuse allegation. You never know the true story, appearances can be very deceptive…

    (Continue to) Enjoy life, (with or) without a woman.

    Double peace.

  523. earlthomas786 says:

    In the end, women are unpredictable. This is true for both individual women and collectively also. There are going to be guys they don’t want to have sex with. From my perspective, they’re the fortunate ones.

    The only prediction I can ever get from women is…they have the ability to rebel if something tickles their feelings just right. Becoming one flesh with a rebellious women in fornication isn’t what the PUAs and cads make it cracked up to be…Boxer has most likely experienced this directly, I’ve observed it take many a men down from a distance. If men miss out on that they are fortunate.

  524. feministhater says:

    Jason. I wouldn’t fret about it at all. You’ve pursued a good and decent path, removed your bad drug habit, improved your life and found Jesus. The rest? You’re already coming to terms with it and once that happens, your life is but a blessing. Find your little place of peace and enjoy the freedom that God has given you. Praise him and may your life be of service to him.

  525. Jason says:

    What I DID discover that too many men in my situation NEVER do is:

    Accept the reality. Too many blame women for everything, and as man……it looks and is unattractive to a woman. “Wahhhhhhh no girl ever gave me a chance!!!!!” type of thing. Most men in my situation do behave this way (Christian or not) and it’s very unattractive to a woman and cringeworthy to a man.

    I could be one thing or a variety of things why this happens to a handful of men…….the reality is that in Christ, the ONE place where we are indeed equal is at The Cross. Jesus doesn’t care about how many women you bedded. He doesn’t care if you were popular in high school. He doesn’t care about your career or job…..mind you He was trained to be a carpenter………..and we never hear one word about how great He was at it………or how much money He made at it…….what He built. How talented he was, and what an amazing “provider” He would be to a wife. Not one word. We never hear one peep on how much “game” Jesus has…in fact, the Word tells us He was “a man that would not have us attracted to him……..” and I have heard the phrase calling Him “a man of sorrows” (not in the Bible, but I relate)

    I’ve done my share of whining, and I mentioned I still get the blues now and then. It hurts, but I don;t regret giving my life to Christ….and even that scripture that mentions “Eunuchs were made for the Kingdoms sake…………” does make me cringe in disgust, in anger…..in rebellion!!!! I also understand that at times…….that is probably me.

    I am not saying “just accept yourself and all will be okay!” No. It may not be “okay” and in fact may get a lot worse. Part of this problem in the USA with men like myself is that we have too much free time to think about this. If I was living in rural India, or parts of Africa…..I would have very little time to be stuck on this thing in life. I would be more concerned with “my daily bread”

    Anyways….I appreciate your kind replies, that at least have a “modicum” of understanding. Not enabling and not pitying. It’s appreciated.

  526. Embracing Reality says:

    Jason, you’re very fortunate indeed to have escaped your past and the drug habit. Most importantly, now your life belongs to Christ! You seem to be resolved to staying single, that’s awesome. I would encourage you to stay single even if you had a lot of options with women. The corruption of this present day and age are the primary reason for your situation, it’s not you. In a different time and place you would have been married as a young man, like nearly every other average man. Most likely the grass would only have been greener on that side though in a different day and age. I can’t help but think you would have thrived in the Midwest rather than San Francisco CA.

    From the other side, single, dating, I’m not sure what you’re missing out on truthfully. I’m in a relationship with a significantly younger, attractive woman who wants marriage. I’m reluctant, very reluctant. I drive out of town to see her and spend money, we don’t have sex because we fear a God or at least I do.. Its difficult to really even enjoy the company between her tests, regarding our future together, and my worries of hurting if I leave. She’s the second one this year. The last one I ended and it hurt both of us badly but her much worse, sigh. I’m not sure if I will even try searching much longer. I may well just go my own way.

    I’ve never been married but a lot of friends have and many divorced. I will spare you all the horror stories but one. The Christian friend who lives with an adulterous wife, caught twice now. You know all the risks, obligations, responsibility, disappointments and excruciating miseries that can befall a married man. Honestly, these days if a man is enjoying a relationship with a woman he’s probably fornicating. Sad to say.

    If you’ve lost you haven’t lost much, at least not much more than me.

  527. Gunner Q says:

    Jason @ October 14, 2017 at 4:52 pm:
    “…I am a man of an AVERAGE IQ … so I am not going to fully and fastly comprehend all these other religiouese terms and what they mean and when.”

    You shut down a Papist with one sentence. Guys with that much wisdom don’t need IQ.

  528. feeriker says:

    @ Jason

    Sometimes true love finds us when we’re not only NOT searching for it, but are determined to avoid it because of the pain we suffered in the past when we thought we had it but didn’t.

    You never know.

    Just sayin’.

  529. Jim Beam says:

    It’s been said on here before but the advent and rise of social media has absolutely destroyed (western) women. I think email and cell phones were the first tools that could be used to start this divide between men and women. What a perfect avenue for either sex to begin looking to have their cake and eat it too.

    Myspace was the tip of the iceberg, then Facebook came along to really start messing relationships up then by the time smart phones came full circle it was 100% game over as far as I was concerned. Fuck trying to get a date, I have the simple problem of even trying to find a female that seems even remotely interested in a once common “hello.” This smart phone thing is not just a young person issue, it’s infected all people of all ages.

    Even without the laws in favor of women it’s still a women’s world now. Women’s heads these days are fucking ginormous! Women I wouldn’t have even given a second thought about now think they are too good for me? Why? Because all their other ugly gf’s are pumping them up on social media. Chicks who quite frankly just weren’t given great looks post some ugly self and then you can get 5-25+ women saying how “gorgeous” and “beautiful” they are, and the ugly bitches not only believe it but get a big head about it. It’s absolutely disgusting. Social media is a huge circle-jerk for women and I have refused to be a part of any of it for the last 8 years. I would never date another Christian women again either, they are fucking terrible people for the most part. Most of them literally think God is going to send them Jesus Christ as a husband. Half the bitches can’t even cook or clean, are entitled, think they are hot when quite frankly they are butt ass ugly, I could go on but I’m depressed. Women are inundated with choices now, they are addicted and obsessed with social media, they have the ultimate collective hive mind seemingly always protecting other dumb ass females. Hookers are cheaper and it’s amazing when they finally leave. It really sucks, I had dated gorgeous and feminine women in the past but the unicorns are usually snapped up in a hurry. Good luck out there guys, it truly is a fucking wasteland when it comes to finding a kind, pleasant, and feminine woman. It’s also a massive turnoff to learn all about someone via what they expose on social media for anyone to see. Nothing is sacred anymore, blabberfucking mouths galore.

    @Jason, you nailed it when you said it is difficult to breathe in solitude these days. And if you do you will not be dating anyone or anything. You murdered the nail on the head there.

  530. Pingback: More and more women are asking why they can’t find a good man to marry | WINTERY KNIGHT

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