A very long season (part 1).

For several decades now the feminist life script for women has been to delay marriage as long as possible to focus on education, career, travel, and sexual experience. Many have mistaken this strategy by feminists as signaling that they don’t value marriage, but this is not the case for the vast majority of them.  Marriage is essential to the feminist dream of having it all, they just don’t want to waste a day more of their youth and fertility on their husbands than absolutely necessary.  Even the fictional protagonist from Sex and the City must eventually marry Mr. Big at the overripe age of 42;  otherwise she would just be a slutty failure and not a feminist heroine.

Each year the age of first marriage has continued to advance, and eventually the White UMC feminist chattering class started to show periodic signs of panic;  maybe they had waited too long and missed their chance to marry?  In March of 2008 The Atlantic published Lori Gottlieb’s now famous piece Marry Him! warning of a shortage of eligible men for marriage delaying women:

…despite growing up in an era when the centuries-old mantra to get married young was finally (and, it seemed, refreshingly) replaced by encouragement to postpone that milestone in pursuit of high ideals (education! career! but also true love!), every woman I know—no matter how successful and ambitious, how financially and emotionally secure—feels panic, occasionally coupled with desperation, if she hits 30 and finds herself unmarried.

…if you say you’re not worried, either you’re in denial or you’re lying. In fact, take a good look in the mirror and try to convince yourself that you’re not worried, because you’ll see how silly your face looks when you’re being disingenuous.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, there’s good reason to worry.

In November of 2011 The Atlantic published Kate Bolick’s All the Single Ladies, wherein Bolick described missing her chance to marry by waiting too long:

We took for granted that we’d spend our 20s finding ourselves, whatever that meant, and save marriage for after we’d finished graduate school and launched our careers, which of course would happen at the magical age of 30. That we would marry, and that there would always be men we wanted to marry, we took on faith. How could we not?

But what transpired next lay well beyond the powers of everybody’s imagination: as women have climbed ever higher, men have been falling behind. We’ve arrived at the top of the staircase, finally ready to start our lives, only to discover a cavernous room at the tail end of a party, most of the men gone already, some having never shown up—and those who remain are leering by the cheese table, or are, you know, the ones you don’t want to go out with.

In 2015 Bolick drove the point home with her book
Spinster: Making a Life of One’s Own.

Christians rationalize the same feminist life script.

Modern Christians have for the most part adopted the feminist life script for women, with some modification.  Instead of admitting what they are doing, Christian women generally claim that what looks suspiciously like a feminist lifestyle is really a sign of piety.  The catchphrase for marriage delaying Christian women is “season of singleness”.  The longer the woman’s season of singleness, the more pious she is said to be.

In the Christian feminist life script, God is ordering Christian women to move to the big city (or at least out of their parent’s house) and pursue education and career.  Women who do this are thought to be demonstrating that they trust God will keep His promise to deliver their dream husband if they stay strong and independent long enough.  Shari Funk explains in The Season of Waiting at Today’s Christian Woman:

“Why doesn’t anything just happen for me?” I often find myself grumbling, tired of waiting, tired of trying to hang onto hope as the months and years slip away and so many questions remain unanswered. I long for a breakthrough in a tedious career that does little to spark life in my heart. I struggle to find a meaningful purpose to center my life around. I wonder when God will finally bring the right man into my life to love and be loved by. I look inwardly at all the healing, growth, and freedom I’ve yet to experience and wish God operated on my timetable instead of his.

So many times I’ve begged God to finally reach down from heaven and move, speak, act, shine a light on my path. But so often when I go to him with my questions and restlessness, he doesn’t reveal anything instantly. Yes, he brings hope, he renews my faith, and he gives me strength to keep going.

But in that gentle, quiet voice, he also speaks the words I’ve heard over and over again . . . my daughter, wait.

Likewise, Maggie Niemiec has been faithful to God by doing all that he has lead her to do.  She moved out of her parents house at 18 to go to college, then moved across the country to another new city when she graduated, and eventually moved to New York City to start a career.  And yet, though she knows her feminist lifestyle pleases God, what she really longs for is to be a wife and mother.  It is only due to her great faith that she stays the course and continues to delay marriage:

Waiting is quite possibly my least favorite thing to do. My mother can attest—ever since I was a little girl, I’ve been impatient. Living in New York City only amplifies this…

Scripture instructs us to wait. We’re told to stay dependent on God, and He will honor our waiting.

Even though I know waiting is good, I still wrestle with it. Just hurry up, God. If you’re going to grant me the desires of my heart, then can you make it happen sooner rather than later? That would be great, thanks.

Full disclosure: I’m waiting for a husband, a man who is God’s best for me to come into my life. I’ve been in love. I’ve been in a long-term relationship with someone I thought I could marry. And I’ve been hurt. So I’ve started to become hardened, thinking maybe I’ve missed my chance. Maybe my standards are too high. Maybe I’m meant to be single forever. I can’t help but think: If I have to experience this much pain and longing, is the wait really worth it?

Fortunately Niemiec met Marian Jordan Ellis, founder of Redeemed Girl Ministries, who inspired her to stay the course:

Marian lit a fire in me, one that’s been dimmed for months because of heartache, doubt, and fear. I know The Lord is absolutely using this woman and her story to be a light to others.

She talked about how God redeemed her, and what she’s learned in waiting. Marian got married in her mid-30s, after hosting countless bridal and baby showers for her friends. She knows what it feels like to deeply desire something that doesn’t seem to be happening, and to have glimpses of the relationship she so wanted only to have it taken away.

“I thought my life should look a certain way,” she said. “But God was holding out His hand and saying, ‘This is what I have for you in this season.’”

If Marian Jordan Ellis hadn’t intervened to reassure Niemiec to stay the course, surely Mandy Hale could have done the same:

Invited by Oprah to cover her Lifeclass: the Tour events as part of OWN’s “VIP Press Corps” in 2012, Mandy has also been a featured speaker at the Women of Faith conference, TD Jakes’ “Woman Thou Art Loosed” conference, and Lakewood Church. She has been named a “Twitter Powerhouse” by the Huffington Post, a “Woman of Influence” by the Nashville Business Journal, and a “Single in the City” by Nashville Lifestyles magazine. She has also been a featured in Forbes magazine, the Huffington Post, and on Glamour.com, Fox News, The 700 Club, and many other outlets. With followers from all over the world, Mandy has made a name for herself as the voice of empowerment and sassiness for single women across the globe.

Mandy’s first book, The Single Woman: Life, Love & a Dash of Sass was released in August 2013 and has gone on to garner nearly 500 five-star reviews.

Hale’s newest book is Beautiful Uncertainty:

Mandy has shown women how important it is to be secure in singleness by being smart, strong, and independent. In this all new book, she will prompt readers to never settle and not miss out on the beauty that can be found in times of “waiting”.

But even Hale sometimes has her doubts about staying the sassy empowered course.  Hale writes at Today’s Christian Woman that Waiting for Marriage Is Hard.

As I read the prayer out loud, something in me broke, and I started crying, all too vividly remembering the many times I’ve cried out to God about my desire for a family, children, traditions, people to grow old with, and a husband to hold me and tell me everything was going to be okay. I cried, remembering all the years of waiting, of enduring the space between “no longer” and “not yet,” and reliving all the moments when I’ve felt forgotten by the God who claims to love me. I recalled the countless instances of frustration and impatience and even despair as the birthdays pass, and my situation seemingly grows more and more hopeless. I might never find the simplest and most complicated of life’s blessings: someone to love who also loves me.

But Christian women should never lose faith.  If they only wait long enough, never settle, and persevere as strong empowered women, God will deliver their dream husband.  A strong empowered woman may have to wait until her late thirties or early forties to find a husband on God’s timetable, but what matters is that delaying marriage is God’s plan.  Carolyn McCulley explains in The God Who Knows the End of Your Singleness.

Moments like these are glimpses of the Lord’s sovereignty in action and treasures to be stored up in the hearts of single women especially. Only occasionally do we have the privilege of seeing so clearly how “in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose” (Rom. 8:28). We should cherish and retell those evidences of God’s grace to encourage and strengthen each other. Our Lord is not a random God: His plan includes blessing us but also making us a blessing to others.

I didn’t know Charlotte when she was single, but I do remember reading her testimony in our ministry magazine, one that was written just weeks prior to her wedding. At the time, I was thirty-two, a fairly new Christian, and to be unflatteringly honest, horrified at the prospect of having to wait until thirty-nine to be married. Now I am thirty-seven, a little less arrogant (hopefully), and grateful for Charlotte’s example. Last year in my church, a woman got married for the first time at forty-three. That pushed Charlotte’s benchmark out of the way and gave me six more years to hope, so to speak.

 

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This entry was posted in Aging Feminists, Finding a Spouse, Having it all, Kate Bolick, Lori Gottlieb, Marriage, Rationalization Hamster, Solipsism, Status of marriage, The Atlantic, Turning a blind eye, Ugly Feminists, Weak men screwing feminism up. Bookmark the permalink.

177 Responses to A very long season (part 1).

  1. rugby11 says:

    Very relevant

  2. Pingback: A very long season (part 1). | @the_arv

  3. rugby11 says:

    Dalrock

  4. Frank K says:

    So sluts are worried there won’t be a pot of gold at the end of the carousel rainbow.

  5. S. Chan says:

    Even the fictional protagonist from Sex and the City must eventually marry Mr. Big

    The originator of Sex and the City, Candace Bushnell, says that “in real life, Carrie and Big wouldn’t have ended up together”. See
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jul/03/candace-bushnell-sex-and-the-city-trump-tinder-new-york-city
    In the show, Carrie got married, because that is what the audience wanted. As Bushnell puts it, the TV show was made for “show business, not show art”. Bushnell knows that, in real life, Carrie would probably still be single, or else settling for marrying someone much less desirable.

  6. Mandy says:

    They’ve found a gold vein and they’re mining it.

    I actually feel badly for women who were in a long term relationship, often including engagement, they thought would end in marriage but they were dumped. This isn’t the same as carousel riding or dumping nice betas.

  7. SnapperTrx says:

    Every “whisper” we hear should be tested against scripture because God “whispering” to us and His written word will not conflict. I don’t recall any verses in the bible that instruct women to be “strong, independent and sassy” or that God would instruct them to patiently wait for Him to send them a magickal husband. This is part and parcel as to the reason behind women getting their biblical instruction first from their fathers and then from their husbands (“And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.”). There are far too many “whisperers” out there and women, being who they are, are quick to find the one that best suits them then claim they are hearing God. Funny how you can get a group of 10 women together and each one has received a different “whisper”, not a single one of them the same.

  8. snarky rat smugbucket jon oliver says:

    Carrie marries Mr Big at 42! That horse-faced feminist shrew couldn’t marry Mr B at 24!

  9. coloradomtnman says:

    @Mandy

    Really – what percentage is that? Is it like the percentage of Holy and Loving women that are dumped and Divorced by their Husbands; less than 15%.

    And were those women ‘in a long term relationship, often including engagement’ having sex? Do you still feel ‘sorry’ for them if they were engaged and having sex and then ‘dumped?’

  10. okrahead says:

    Mandy,
    Let me re-word that for you to reflect reality:
    “I actually feel bad for men who were in long term relationships called marriage they thought would not end, but they were dumped. It’s because they were nice betas who were less exciting that carousel riding.”
    There, fixed that for you.

  11. A friend from high school waited. High power marketing director. Lived on three continents.
    Entered late thirties looking for a man. By luck she found a good one at 45. Finally married at 49. Two years later he had a stroke. Lived but their life is very curtailed.
    She only had 7 years with him, less than two married before age smacked them.

    By contrast my wife and I have had each other, for good or bad, for 30 years.

    Forget kids etc.

    Delaying only cuts short the possible good years you can have.
    How many 55 year olds do you know that have had a scare?
    Cancer, stroke, heart attack, accident?
    50 may be the new 40 dating but health wise for most its the new 60.

    Why wait?

    Its like purposely running out the clock in a tied game.

  12. feministhater says:

    LOL!

  13. feministhater says:

    I actually feel badly for women who were in a long term relationship, often including engagement, they thought would end in marriage but they were dumped. This isn’t the same as carousel riding or dumping nice betas.

    They should have waited before having sex. Are they dumb as rocks? Either they wait or they get used. Welcome to reality. It wasn’t men holding women down by telling them to be virgins on their wedding day but actually providing them protection and something of worth that a husband is given rather than 20 other men who don’t care a damn. Pathetic that women brought the lie of sexual empowerment hook, line and sinker. No one should marry their used up vajayjays.

  14. feministhater says:

    Well, wouldn’t you know it but men have preferences and prefer youthful innocence and fertility to the aged uselessness of a 30 something career slut. They’ve done it to themselves.

  15. davidtaylor2 says:

    chattering class started to show periodic sings of panic;

    Did you mean periodic signs of panic?

    [D: Yes. Thanks!]

  16. feeriker says:

    But Christian women should never lose faith. If they only wait long enough, never settle, and persevere as strong empowered women, God will deliver their dream husband. A strong empowered woman may have to wait until her late thirties or early forties to find a husband on God’s timetable, but what matters is that delaying marriage is God’s plan.

    I really hope someone demands that these Moorean-Gregoirean Christofeminists cite actual SCRIPTURE that backs up this viewpoint.

  17. Nathan Bruno says:

    If I found myself convinced that God was in favor of every inclination I had, I would be very worried about my actual relationship with God, and that I was setting up a god of my own desires.

    Scripture says:
    “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts.”
    “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick.”
    “Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives.”
    “You were taught to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires”.

    This must be one of those times when the Christian feminists will demand those verses be gendered, absolutely. It is hard to escape concluding that these women who sell Christianity-tinged life advice to other Christian women believe that women cannot sin and don’t have a sin nature.

    Shorter: Roosh knows that God was not a fan of his womanizing, yet these women see God as fully supportive of anything they want to do.

  18. Frank K says:

    “50 may be the new 40 dating but health wise for most its the new 60.”

    No kidding. The obesity epidemic will make sure of that. We will soon be witnessing the utter collapse in average life expectancy as tubbies start dropping dead in their 50’s and 60’s.

  19. Jason says:

    Ahhhhhh……..yeah, it’s hard. I spent my twenties and a good part of my thirties just being “too nice” and hearing over, and over, and over, and over “Ummmm I just don’t feel a spark!” and of course the classic feel-good-no-hard-feelings-excuse used by countless women to me during those long ago years of the 1990’s:

    “You’re so sweet, and I know that someday some amazing girl is gonna walk into your life and I am gonna be so happy for you and she’s is gonna be soooooo perfect for you!” (or variances of this)

    Welll……after getting angry, wasting A TON of time griping, feeling pathetic and butt-hurting sorry for myself…….and being a cultural Christian in word and zero deed….

    I just started doing things in my life for me. Sure, I served in church. The community. Yes, found joy and peace in service to others. Grew my skills. Became the guy who did step up to help. Got peace in and through Christ. I still do feel this way. I also rediscovered things I liked for what they were. Hobbies I threw away in the pursuit of dating, trying to get women to “like” me and trying to be cool. Things I discarded because “real men” like only like football and power tools (in order to be a real Christian man today, these are two prereqs with the ‘bold’ pastors today).

    ……and you know what??????

    Life got better. Priorities got corrected. I began to really enjoy life again as a ‘joyful servant’ and I realized I did have a life that din’t hinge on incorrectly used Bible verses. I realized that the Christian faith isn’t a “Doctrine of Happiness” but a very bloody Covenant with a Man of Sorrows. I grew my talents, I began to read for the sake of reading again. I got into better shape. Life got better, and it indeed went on…………even if I didn’t want it to 🙂

    When I accepted that I did not have my “revenge” on all these Christian women. I understood how blessed I am, and how I actually just pity these women. Too bad they are not happy, cause I know for a fact I am. I am not being actively pursued or endeared by women btw. Just putting that out there. But I do wonder this:

    Over the decades, how many of these women brushed off a guy because he didn’t fit the mold exactly of what “God has promised her” or matched the list of 5,000 things he *must* have? How many of these women who felt the *tingles* with a crusty turd, and justified her actions with a “Well, God will forgive me” attitude? More than few I would be willing to place a solid wager on.

    It’s called consequences of sin. Sure, we are forgiven. Blessed. Given second chances. Redeemed (I know I am). Sure, the sins are forgiven, but the results and wreckage from these sins may indeed stay with you for the rest of your life. That is never discussed in protestant circles today for the most part. Sure, you are born again…..you gave your life to God. Amen!!! However, you got hep from your years of sharing needles in a drug addiction or you got an STD / STD that is with you for the rest of your life. Maybe you had children out of wedlock and the results of this are keeping the “good men” away from you now. Consequences of sin. They are there and real. Time heals, you learn and life goes on……but your actions that had nothing to with God that got you into a jam cannot be placed upon Him at this point.

    I’ve noticed too many Christian women never deal and wrestle with this. Nor do these bold n’ biblical pastors today (Chandler comes to mind here).

  20. Lost Patrol says:

    That was an entertaining read. What could be left for part II after hitting all those classic highlights?

    delay marriage as long as possible to focus on education, career, travel, and sexual experience.

    Then when ready (@ age 29.99 years h/t AR) call upon God as if He were – in feeriker’s apt phrase – a cosmic vending machine, to provide a husband that will be A-OK with all the foregoing red flags streaming in the breeze. The sign of a man that will be easy to control and keep him on the right track.

    Christians rationalize the same feminist life script.

    I’m watching this all around me all the time even as the players deny the reality of it.

  21. Robert What? says:

    Guys, take it from one who knows: never ever marry a woman over 30 (usual disclaimer for widows). Your life will be a living hell.

  22. feeriker says:

    It’s called consequences of sin.

    I’ve noticed too many Christian women never deal and wrestle with this. Nor do these bold n’ biblical pastors today (Chandler comes to mind here).

    Christians, precious few that there are, completely grasp this. Churchians, on the other hand, cannot fathom that forgiveness of sins is anything other than a Deluxe GetOutOfAllConsequencesForPastTransgressions Package, complete with restoration of body and life free of any residual trace of past sin. Churchian women, especially, to the extent that they think that the word “sin” even applies to them at all, insist on forgiveness being a “virginity do-over,” that their years on the Carousel never happened and that no physical or emotional consequences of their years of uncontrolled sluttiness remain. Pastorbators, for all of the manifold reasons discussed hereabouts ad nauseum and ad infinitum, enable this delusion.

  23. Hugh Mann says:

    31 too old, Robert? Together for 6 years before that while I tried to get a career (and associated money) into gear. Can’t marry with no prospects. Didn’t turn out too badly, lots of babies.

    “I long for a breakthrough in a tedious career that does little to spark life in my heart. I struggle to find a meaningful purpose to center my life around.”

    Must be worse in the Facebook age when your friends are showing off their high-flying careers or worse, their children.

    “my desire for a family, children, traditions, people to grow old with, and a husband”

    Reading this, for some reason I’ve got Alberta Hunter’s inappropriate old blues “Send Me A Man” on the mental jukebox.

  24. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    Many have mistaken this strategy by feminists as signaling that they don’t value marriage, but this is not the case for the vast majority of them.

    Pay attention to what women do, not what they say. It’s axiomatic.

    Say: “Sure, I want to get married someday
    Do: “Career! Travel! Lotsa cockas!”

    Say: “I want a nice Christian guy”
    Do: ” The catchphrase for marriage delaying Christian women is “season of singleness”. The longer the woman’s season of singleness, the more pious she is said to be.”

    Hypergamy is real. Even good church girls have it. If women valued being married, they would act like it, by getting married early as possible. They don’t.

    Actions speak louder than words. Women’s actions are speaking loud and clear, Dalrock. They want lots of Alpha F*** before they settle for Beta Bucks, and we are already seeing the leading edge of Beta Cucks where the carousel rider flops into the arms of a Beta with her Alpha badboy’s child along for the trip.

  25. Advisor says:

    It is wonderful how everybody seems to be thinking that if you do things “right” in some aspects of your life (work, religion, ideology), you will be “rewarded” by success in a completely unrelated aspect (relationships).
    If you want a good partner, put your effort into looking for a good partner. No rocket science.
    I am trying to picture someone giving advice: wait for a good career, it´s going to come along if you are patient and smoke a lot of pot.

  26. Matamoros says:

    The endless self-delusions of these feminists is satanic. God is not telling them to wait. He told them to marry young, for life, and to obey their husbands.

    Is it any wonder St. Paul forbids women to teach in the Church?

  27. earl says:

    Even I as a man I would fall into the trap of waiting on God to do something. I think what these women are missing is they can play a part in God’s plan by action as well. Not like a man, but when a man does step up to the plate they recipicate and are helpful. And when they are in that time of singleness (because we are all single at some point in time) hone their femininity and mother skills instead of destructive behavior. Make a competant effort and leave it up to God.

    I had to wait 8 years to get the job I was seeking and was praying for it…but you can bet I was sending out resumes and honing my skills during that time to be prepared for when I finally got it.

  28. Robert What? says:

    @Hugh Mann,

    There are exceptions to everything. If you married a 31 year old and it turned out well, kudos to you. But if you were together for six years before that, arguably you married a 25 year old but just “made it legal” when she was 31. And if you had “lots of kids” starting when she was 31 you two are fortunate indeed as fertility starts plummeting starting in a woman’s thirties.

  29. Pingback: A very long season (part 1). | Reaction Times

  30. earl says:

    ‘The endless self-delusions of these feminists is satanic.’

    Now you know where these ‘whispers of the heart’ come from.

    I’m not saying it’ll eradicate it completely…but a woman who spends time in prayer will be less apt to go that route.

  31. Gunner Q says:

    “Instead of admitting what they are doing, Christian women generally claim that what looks suspiciously like a feminist lifestyle is really a sign of piety.”

    I saw this in church yesterday. (Only went for Mom’s sake.) A good chunk of the service was a fundraising effort for female short-term missionaries to Germany, of all places. I couldn’t stop thinking about Madonna’s proverb: “When I get on my knees, it isn’t to pray.” That one chick was reeeally looking forward to some “loverseas evangelism”!

    Side note, the older church ladies there are getting unhappy about no grandkids… and as they listen to their sons’ complaints of female misconduct, well, I bet that is where many “anti-feminist women” are starting to come from.

  32. Jason says:

    Yes because we all know here that Germany needs “missions” to preach the Gospel in the land of Martin Luther. Thousands of churches, cathedrals, a nation that was a “christian nation” dating back to the late Roman Empire…..but you know, we just gotta send “missions” there because it has hot running water, electricity, cars, stores that are full of consumer goods….and I BET these women who are being sent to Germany DON’T even speak German. They are going to get a summer in Germany, partying, maybe some sex…oh, and working a day a week at a ‘vacation bible school’ at some church with children of course……..it will look good on their resumes when applying to college or grad school or a job.

    Mission work????? How about this. How about raising some funds, taking a walk across their OWN TOWN / CITY and witnessing to the folks who live in a trailer park on top of a toxic waste dump or near the substation or recycling center a la Erin Brockovich?

    No, that would require work. That would require boldness of faith. That would require actual effort.

  33. Frank K says:

    ” And if you had “lots of kids” starting when she was 31 you two are fortunate indeed as fertility starts plummeting starting in a woman’s thirties.”

    Indeed, we were done when my wife turned 32, and not a moment too soon as her cycles soon became irregular before they completely stopped.

  34. Frank K says:

    “I BET these women who are being sent to Germany DON’T even speak German.”

    Every time someone asks for a donation for their “summer mission” I tell them they aren’t going on a mission, they’re going on a vacation, and they can pay for it themselves.

  35. Spike says:

    The modern career woman always follows he identical script, as outlined above. Where the Christian woman differs is that she covers her failings in a layer of sickening piety that fools no one competent.
    (And no, Mandy: many career women either live with their boyfriends, or end up engaged. It is a recipe for getting dumped, because men know that a marriage is not a continuation of the Cult Of The Boyfriend. Women don’t know this).
    One problem is that the New Testament is sexist: It outlines roles for men and roles for women. It tells men to patiently wait on God. It tells women to woman up, get married, have children, support a husband and when older, support the younger women in the church to do likewise. Non-sexist reading of the New Testament will get the roles (conveniently, for christo-feminist women) reversed with the concomitant disaster we see.
    Speaking of piety in waiting longer, look no further than woman missionaries. I will ay hands on male missionaries and those who decide to become clergy. I refuse to do likewise for women. That’s because being a missionary, like clergy, is a man’s job. Women as missionaries just christianise the feminist script and end up putting women inexactly the same place as secular career women.

  36. Anonymous Reader says:

    Since women, even churchgoing women, can be their own betas now…there’s no need for any one man to provide / protect when men as a group can do that via government. That is the argument here, he’s got a number of cites backing him up.

    https://nkilsdonkgervais.wordpress.com/2017/05/04/when-men-pay-taxes-women-become-promiscuous/

    When the milk is free there is no need to buy a cow. For either sex.

  37. Swanny River says:

    I was going to start by exclaiming Yes! And respond to the original post but now I am overwhelmed what to write because all the excellent comments.
    I will start with Jason because the story is similar to mine, especially the timeframe. I did get married layer, but that is another story. Your tale made me think of one of my last attempts. It was a homely Christian, a real 4, but no more than an extra 20. I was older though, I was 40ish and she was late 20s. Couldn’t make a connection with despite lots of good signs for a good relationship. Well, she’s moves out to a different city to move in with a boyfriend. I liked her parents and I think it was a bad move just from that perspective. Ultimately she chose youth(assuming the dude is her age) over a righteous relationship with me. That is the way it goes, despite Mandy’s grasp at exceptions. I bet you have many stories like that yourself. It is sad isn’t, because it just means more misery and sin.

  38. Boxer says:

    Dear Frank K.:

    Every time someone asks for a donation for their “summer mission” I tell them they aren’t going on a mission, they’re going on a vacation, and they can pay for it themselves.

    Why are these people going to Germany? There are plenty of needy areas (Rural Mississippi, West Virginia, etc.) right here, in North America. Charity begins at home.

    I’m not really familiar with the concept of the “summer mission” and I’ll cop to not knowing exactly what you guys are talking about. I have to wonder why single women would be encouraged to go on such a thing, whatever it is. Why would you send your sister or daughter to some foreign country, where she is likely to get herself into trouble?

    Women who boast about going abroad by themselves, or with groups of other women, are often motivated by the prospect of no strings sex with locals, which their parents and grandparents will never find out about. If your church is sending young women abroad, then it ought to have chaperones.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  39. AnonS says:

    “waiting on the lord” this NEEDS a stake driven right through it. It has trapped so many young people, I was trapped for 6 years trying to “wait for God’s best”. As if a waiter at a restaurant just minds their own business until you go and physically shake them for attention.

  40. Swanny River says:

    No one asks questions about such trips because it is considered impolite. A trip like that is usually based on a legit missionary from the home church working overseas, therefore, to question it implies a questioning of God’s call on the original missionary, which is considered very impolite to do. So people see the nonsense, shut up about it, and the church is worse off for it. Countering that is the very real truth that God is calling people to go to places that sounds illogical. Like Paul heading back to Jerusalem.

  41. okrahead says:

    Regarding “summer missionaries”: I ran into this a few years back at the church I was formerly a member of when still married. A family there was soliciting funds to go to Belize for a couple of weeks to a month during the summer. As it turns out, I have family members who have done actual foreign work in Belize. The destination this family wanted to go to was a popular coastal resort, and their accommodations were to be an upscale tourist hotel. I declined to contribute to their family vacation fund, and actually had the audacity to question whether church mission funds should be used for their vacation, all of which led to some very hard feelings. This is doubly wrong because it diverts resources from men who truly are suffering hardship to work in difficult areas, both foreign and domestic, and because it causes many weak Christians to refuse to help anyone in evangelism when they see that some abuse their generosity.

  42. okrahead says:

    And yes, Swanny, I was accused of being impolite and then some.

  43. Swanny River says:

    Dalrock took a zig when I thought he would zag when he said Christians play this game by calling it piety. That is interesting, but I will disagree. I’ve heard the pious statements, and he gives great contemporary examples, but I think that is really a form of politeness. I think the piety covering is a downstream effect of parents really wanting and thinking that career track is a great AND godly life pattern, especially the Moms. Because we are atomized we, or they, see success in terms of individual goals and not in a strong and close church with authoritative Dads who teach at home. So a degree is good because it is a good accomplishment for their daughters and makes them feel like they did a good job. The piety bit is just a lazy, but consistent, bit of posturing. At least that is my take. Am I on to something or misread the post or am I making a distinction without a difference?

  44. Frank K says:

    “I’m not really familiar with the concept of the “summer mission”

    I seems to be a popular trend in Evangelical circles.

    A relative of mine’s daughter sent me a letter asking for a donation for her “summer mission” to south America. I turned her down and contacted her father. I asked if he was OK with this, as it could be dangerous. He said that she would be chaperoned and cared for, and would not be in danger. I told him that was a vacation and the he could pay for it himself and shouldn’t have his daughter pestering the family for money.

  45. Swanny River says:

    Good for you Okrahead. I wish you were around when I became a believer and went such a trip to a San Jose, Costa Rica trip, because without being able to grasp it, I knew something wasn’t right about spending all those resources that way. I did like the fellowship and experience of working in a direct service like that, but there are better ways, and those won’t happen unless truth is spoken, like you and the other commenters who tells the people it is a vacation.

  46. Frank K says:

    “No one asks questions about such trips because it is considered impolite. A trip like that is usually based on a legit missionary from the home church working overseas, therefore”

    Fortunately for me my church doesn’t engage in such nonsense. If we have money for missions, we actually send it to bona fide missionaries, who are often locals in the target country. I only encounter this from the Evangelical side of the family. Since they now know I won’t give them a penny, they’ve stopped asking me.

  47. Boxer says:

    Dear Swanny & Okrahead:

    Regarding “summer missionaries”: I ran into this a few years back at the church I was formerly a member of when still married. A family there was soliciting funds to go to Belize for a couple of weeks to a month during the summer. As it turns out, I have family members who have done actual foreign work in Belize. The destination this family wanted to go to was a popular coastal resort, and their accommodations were to be an upscale tourist hotel.

    You fellas are certainly in the right to publicly question such shenanigans. Out here in the godless secular world, we call that sort of thing “embezzlement,” and we tend to take a dim view of it. Maybe we don’t understand those godly christian ways, or something.

    And again, it’s not as glamorous as going on an expensed vacation to Europe, but true believers would do a lot of good if they served soup in the depths of the negro ghetto of New Orleans, or cleaned up the meth-infested white trash trailer park in Morgantown. People right here in America could use some help too — and they’re your people. You can tell them I said so.

    Best,

    Boxer

  48. They Call Me Tom says:

    The thing that women aren’t told by these pastors and self-proclaimed-intellectuals is that God’s plan is not defined by them, but by God.
    For the secular girls, and even simpler truth is not told to them; their plan for other people is not inherently the same as those people’s plans for themselves. You at best only define you. It is not ambitious, but foolish, to plan your life with the premise that others will fall in line with that plan.
    It’s a frustrating thing to me, only that in my twenties, as the girls conflated smv for mmv, I was ready to settle down, they were too smart for that. In my thirties, as the girls married their jobs; I was ready to settle down, they were too smart for that. Somehow in my forties, it’s on me that I haven’t settled down, not the women who’ve come and gone?
    The strange thing is, I have a life fit for a hedonist now, and I haven’t the feintist idea of what to do with it. It wasn’t my plan afterall.

  49. Dale says:

    @Jason re your comment at 4:04 pm:

    Excellent comment. Elimination of resentment from your own thoughts, and a blunt presentation of continuing consequences in this world, even after sin. Very important ideas.

    @FeeRiker
    > Churchians [think…] forgiveness of sins is … a Deluxe GetOutOfAllConsequencesForPastTransgressions Package, complete with restoration of body and life free of any residual trace of past sin.

    Both amusing and, unfortunately, true.

    @Matamoros
    >He told them to marry young, for life, and to obey their husbands.
    I agree with your last two, but I am not sure the first is correct (the God told them to “marry young”).
    I absolutely agree that a woman should marry young:
    – to present the best value to her husband and thus show she values marriage
    – to get her in the practice of putting her marriage first in priority, before play, immorality, “career”, etc.
    – to help her easily transition into obedience to her husband (versus being “her own woman” for a decade first)

    But can anyone think of a Scripture passage that says women should marry young? There are many that seem to assume a woman will marry young:
    – Prov 5:18-19: “the wife of your youth”: Unless a young man is going to marry some older woman, the fact he married in “his youth” means his wife also was young

    – Num 30:3-16 talk about vows, and being bound by them. The passage talks about two groups of women:
    – those who are “within her father’s house in her youth” (note the “youth”)
    – the woman who “marries a husband”
    There is no mention of an older woman who is not married. Or a SIW living on her own.

    Anyone have a passage that directly addresses the idea of a woman living for herself for a decade before offering the remnants of her beauty, fertility and past-potential value to a husband?

  50. Swanny River says:

    Boxer, can do, but remember “your people” cab be YOUR people, and many we people ate wanting that, and if you do, there will be a great celebration in heaven, one that will give you an unexplainable surprise of strength that surpasses the pleasure of competency and success.

  51. Swanny River says:

    So many typos in that post. I am really sorry.

  52. Swanny River says:

    One last comment for me on this off-topic of mission vacations. We have a downtown bus station in my local that is filled daily with the sickest and most outcast of society. It is about the most high density place, more than a soup kitchen, for it. Our church never talks about, but you know how did day something in a prayer service about once? It was a blind woman! I am still stunned she saw that so clearly, but she has an equally stunning attribute of talking turkey.

  53. Darwinian Arminian says:

    In the Christian feminist life script, God is ordering Christian women to move to the big city (or at least out of their parent’s house) and pursue education and career. Women who do this are thought to be demonstrating that they trust God will keep His promise to deliver their dream husband if they stay strong and independent long enough.

    While this is certainly prevalent among single women in the modern church, I’d argue that the bigger problem with them is that they want to be able to identify as a faithful member of the Christian religion only so far as they can graft onto it the values, platitudes, and rituals of feminism. Talk to some of these women about what their religious beliefs are. They’ll tell you that the sin they want to see the church tackle is . . . ending male privilege. Ask them to name a Christian value that they treasure the most and they’ll usually say “equality.” And they’ll tell you that they want to devote their life’s mission to “smashing the patriarchy,” even as they claim to worship a God who specifically describes Himself as being a ruling Father.

    Women in the church today seem completely unable to grasp that feminism is actually a rival religion to Christ, and for a good chunk of these women their worship doesn’t amount to much more than scotch-taping an icon of Jesus over the top of their feminist idols because that way they can still tell themselves that it’s God whom they ultimately bowed to. That’s bad enough as it is, but it also will never be enough for them to continue in their delusion alone, so they’ll seek out church leaders to bless the dogmas of their new religion (which many a faithless pastor will foolishly do) and they’ll also bemoan the fact that they can’t find good Christian husband (even as they advertise that they have no intention of ever being a good Christian wife).

    I’m a Christian man myself, one who has hoped for a good marriage most of my life while yet remaining single. But when I see single women like this in today’s church who are in some ways my counterpart . . . I can’t help but find myself laughing at them. Can’t they see that every show of loyalty they display for their slapdash belief system is like a giant neon sign flashing out what a bad idea it would be to marry them? For a great real-life demonstration of this, all you have to do is scroll through the twitter feed of any random woman prominent in evangelical Christianity. One such example: Katelyn Beaty, the former managing editor of Christianity Today magazine. Young, single, supposedly eligible and apparently Christian — and yet we get public service messages from her like this:

    Along with reminders of her strongest allegiances:

    To the downright bizarre:

    But after she’s done making sure the men know that she’s her own highest priority . . . . she would like to tell them that there are a few things they’re doing to disserve her:

    MAY YOU NOT BE WEIRD: And 30 Other Prayers for My Future Husband
    Link here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2016/october/may-you-not-be-weird-and-prayers-for-my-future-husband.html

    And women like this want to know why they’re not married yet? That’s like a farmer who poisons all of his livestock, sets the crops in his fields on fire, then walks in the front door of his house, sits down at the table and sobs to his family: “I just don’t know how we’re going to produce enough food to make it through this year’s winter!”

  54. okrahead says:

    Dale,
    Concerning passages regarding younger women, I would go to I Timothy 5:14, 15:
    14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
    15 For some are already turned aside after Satan

    So, either the young women are marrying, bearing children, and guiding the house, OR they are turned aside after Satan.
    But of course the churchians long ago decided Paul is not really anyone we should be reading and using for doctrine.

  55. feeriker says:

    Mission work????? How about this. How about raising some funds, taking a walk across their OWN TOWN / CITY and witnessing to the folks who live in a trailer park on top of a toxic waste dump or near the substation or recycling center a la Erin Brockovich?

    No, that would require work…

    Ugggh! How …”vulgar” and common, the though of wading through all that subhuman redneck trash! Why, I’ll bet they even drink wine out of cardboard boxes! **shudder** [/sarc]

  56. okrahead says:

    All this goes back to God’s purpose:
    Man is to fear God and keep his commandments (Ecclesiates 12:13) Woman was created specifically to be man’s helper. Woman was created from man by God specifically to be man’s helper (Genesis 2:18).
    Hence a man who does not fear God and keep His commandments has failed to follow God’s purpose for his life, and a woman who is not working to be a man’s helper has failed to follow God’s purpose for her life.

  57. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    SnapperTrx: I don’t recall any verses in the bible that instruct women to be “strong, independent and sassy”

    I’m sure that modern “Christian” women can twist the Bible to find their strong, independent, sassy heroines. Rebecca was sassy enough to fool Issac into switching his intended blessing from Esau to Jacob. And if that was God’s intent, then Rebecca’s sassy disobedience was Godly.

    In Judges 4:21, Jael was sassy enough to kill Sisera.

    or that God would instruct them to patiently wait for Him to send them a magickal husband.

    God sent Sarah a child at age 90.

    Modern Christian women have enough hubris to think they’re all entitled to miracles. They ignore that God used Sarah for His plans, not for her happiness.

  58. Swanny River says:

    But Okrahead, do you understand that Churchians agree with your statement? They think raising a high standard, well-traveled, ambitious sassy girl is preparing them for both God, and a husband. They think pride in their girls’ kick-assery is a godly pride.

  59. feeriker says:

    Inre the “mission trip” topic, WillS nailed it over a Patriactionary last summer:

    https://patriactionary.wordpress.com/2016/08/16/mission-trips-are-bullshit/

  60. Swanny River says:

    I need to be clearer: Okrahead, they think a high earner is a helper because of the money, conversation, and empathy that comes from it. It’s tricky because they ate also aware of the truth that having an attitude of helpfulness is important and they think they ate dishonoring God by being legalistic if they don’t max out her career potential.

  61. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    FeministHater: “Well, wouldn’t you know it but men have preferences and prefer youthful innocence and fertility to the aged uselessness of a 30 something career slut. They’ve done it to themselves.”

    That’s one half of it. The other half are the 30- and 40-something pseudo-nuns who spend those years barren and celibate and become sex-phobic. I know women like this and if and when they manage to land that dream guy, they bring a smorgasbord of sexual dysfunction to the table,

    Like playing baseball or lifting weights, sex is a bodily habit. You can’t expect to just start doing it at 38 and feel natural about it. Since these women are in this position, the natural becomes the unnatural and so dysfunction follows (as it does when women have been doing the opposite and riding the carousel).

    Contrast this with women who marry at age 22 or so and get used to bonding physically and emotionally with one man. We’re talking about two entirely different beasts. You can “save yourself” till age 50 and you’ll never have the experience of the 22-year-old wife. So, there’s more to all this than meets the eye. And to an older guy, the choice of “carousel rider vs. the pseudo-nun” isn’t much of a choice at all, esp. compared to what his options are among the younger set.

  62. Frank K says:

    “That’s one half of it. The other half are the 30- and 40-something pseudo-nuns who spend those years barren and celibate and become sex-phobic. I know women like this and if and when they manage to land that dream guy, they bring a smorgasbord of sexual dysfunction to the table”

    I suspect they were frigid even when young, which is probably why they never rode the carousel to begin with. But as they get older they’re approaching menopause and their hormones have fallen off a cliff, which is another strike for any man who hopes to physically bond with his old and virgin wife.

    But the cultural chorus is clear: marry young == bad. Waiting until you’re old == good.

  63. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Modern “Christian” women look upon God as other women look upon astrology, palm reading, or New Age gurus. The message is always the same: God, the Universe, the Stars have an amazing plan for you. You fill find True Love with a tall, dark, handsome, wealthy foreigner. Perhaps a prince or maybe a shipping tycoon. You will have three beautiful, brilliant children who will adore you. You will travel the world, have amazing adventures, and live a long and healthy life. But first, there is a sea of troubles. But these will clear up and your amazing life will begin.

  64. okrahead says:

    Frank,
    If half of those 30-40 singles are virgins than I’m Holy Roman Emperor.

  65. okrahead says:

    Or perhaps as Cervantes said, they are indeed holy virgins, just as were their mothers who bore them.

  66. Ben Mavet Who says:

    I have mixed feelings about women going on mission trips. Or for that matter, missions trips in general.

    On one hand I have seen good examples, for instance I am thinking of a young woman who went to a hostile country in the Middle East to care for the children of an undercover missionary while the wife was incapacitated by a major illness and surgery. Cases like that may be the exception that proves the rule.

    I’m a trained translator/interpreter. I was invited on a missions trip recently. Due to my skills my way was paid. It was the biggest waste of time and money I have in which I have participated.

    We were there to build a church building. All well and good. The problem? The local church had several men who were professionals in construction. The Americans insisted on building an American style building that was completely unsuited for the local environment. They put the experienced local men to doing silly stuff like pulling nails out of boards and sweeping. Meanwhile the inexperienced Americans made a pig’s breakfast out of the building.

    One of the local men stood there shaking his head. I asked him what he was thinking. He said that for all the money spent on the trip they could have built four buildings. He pointed out that building in the American style there wouldn’t last. The environment would destroy the building in a decade or so.

    Off topic but I’m a long-time lurker but first time commenter.

  67. Jack Russell says:

    Is it any wonder why men would want to marry such women? Modern trash culture has taught women to wait “have your fun” then settle. Paul J. Watson hits it out of the park. The first 30 seconds are a good enough reason not to get married.

  68. Frank K says:

    “If half of those 30-40 singles are virgins than I’m Holy Roman Emperor.”

    I know, but I was talking about the ones that actually are virgins.

  69. seventiesjason says:

    @Swanny

    Yeah…..had my heart broken and stepped on, expectations ruined over and over again. All I got was more of the same advice…..you know “be a gentleman” stuff and it got me zilch and it actually made me downright bitter and for a period hostile (not violent) towards women in general. Thankfully by His provision, my own growth in Him and actually reading the Bible, and believing it……well, the resentment began to melt and in 2010 I wept and cried unashamedly at the Mercy Seat, became truly Born Again and realized my own sin in all of this too.

    I am polite to my Sisters in my Corps (Salvation Army guy here). I do get along well with married women. Some good convos I have had with them. Always appropriate btw, I am a trusted man with my fellow married Brothers.

    As for being *nice* to women? No. Not anymore. Not ever. I am polite only. I don’t do things for them (fix computers, be an emotional tampon, change the oil in their car, watch their kids from other men for them…ughhhh….guard her heart…..none of that anymore and I have not done that for a VERY long time).

    I will kneel and pray with a woman in a deep, and heartfelt manner if she requests this though. Prayer is one of my very strong gifts.

    The Chandlers, Platts, Pipers, and Dricolls of this world can talk down to me all they want about me not being a real man…..frankly I don’t care. I am really busy with my life and living it with His favor. No I don’t have some awesome career or ministry. Can’t say my life is really worth writing or making a movie about. I live a simple, tidy, clean, working-class value driven life and its okay. I have zero debt and nice things that I saved and worked for through thrift.

    I just returned from an almost three week backpacking trek through the Adirondack Mountains of northern New York State. I like church, and I enjoy some of the messages. Some of the fellowship…. But I felt closer to Christ and my manhood in Him sitting on the shore of a remote Adirondack pond deep in His creation watching the sunset and listening to the cry of lake loons for the most part than I ever get out of a Holiness Meeting at my church 🙂

  70. Pingback: A very long season (part 1). - Top

  71. Obstinatus Ludificator says:

    “Why doesn’t anything just happen for me?”

    The entire problem in a single sentence. “Why hasn’t someone rescued me from my own terrible decisions?”

  72. Dale says:

    Thanks okrahead

  73. feeriker says:

    “Why doesn’t anything just happen for me?”

    The entire problem in a single sentence. “Why hasn’t someone rescued me from my own terrible decisions?”

    “Why doesn’t anything just happen for me?”

    Hamsterlation: “What, you mean I have to actually put some effort into getting the quality man that I want??!!!”

  74. feeriker says:

    @ Ben Mavet Who:

    It must be HILARIOUS to observe American “missionaries” at “work” in strange foreign countries. I’m betting that they provide enough joke and mockery fodder for the locals to last several generations without having to reuse material.

  75. Mark says:

    Nice post Mister ‘D”. These so called “Christian Feminists” are a joke. Today when I am at the office I will see about 100(at least) of these type of women.They are everywhere here in Toronto. Our office tower is full of them.The office towers next door and across the street are FULL of them.In fact,I can think of about 6 or 7 of these types that work for us in the Family Office.I know at least 300 of these same types of women that you write about in your article.They are mostly hot looking babes but,they can never lock down a man….and they cannot understand why? As someone who has banged numerous women of this variety I can assure you that besides sex they are good for nothing else.They have lousy personalities,they are over bearing,miserable and obnoxious.Again,if they did not have a Vajayjay I would not even look at them.

    @Boxer

    “”There are plenty of needy areas (Rural Mississippi, West Virginia, etc.) right here, in North America. “”

    Ah yes! The two poorest States in the Union.As someone who has been going to WVA every weekend for close to a year,I will assure you that I have seen some VERY poor people and families. In fact,I do not remember seeing as poor a people in Canada as I have seen in WVA.I am sure they are around like in New Brunswick,Newfieland etc.

    @All Posters

    I would like to wish all the American posters here at Dalrocks a VERY HAPPY 4th of July.Happy Independence Day!

  76. Moses says:

    But Christian women should never lose faith. If they only wait long enough, never settle, and persevere as strong empowered women, God will deliver their dream husband.

    Searing satire Dalrock. Like a hot knife thru butter. Beautiful.

  77. earl says:

    ‘Paul J. Watson hits it out of the park.’

    He does understand the secular side to all of this madness well…digging deeper you can also see how Satanic it is. One of the results of the fall was a wedge between men and women. That’s why God ordained the current roles after sin entered the world.

    PJW is also right about how unfulfilling the route taken by players and sluts in this present situation. Lust is always empty and the hunger is never satisfied. ‘Man is to fear God and keep his commandments (Ecclesiates 12:13)’ is correct no matter what zeitgeist we happen to be in. Women can chose to fail their duties but that is no excuse for men to do the same.

  78. earl says:

    ‘Women in the church today seem completely unable to grasp that feminism is actually a rival religion to Christ, and for a good chunk of these women their worship doesn’t amount to much more than scotch-taping an icon of Jesus over the top of their feminist idols because that way they can still tell themselves that it’s God whom they ultimately bowed to. ‘

    The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

  79. earl says:

    Needs to be repeated:

    ‘All this goes back to God’s purpose:
    Man is to fear God and keep his commandments (Ecclesiates 12:13) Woman was created specifically to be man’s helper. Woman was created from man by God specifically to be man’s helper (Genesis 2:18).
    Hence a man who does not fear God and keep His commandments has failed to follow God’s purpose for his life, and a woman who is not working to be a man’s helper has failed to follow God’s purpose for her life.’

    Now I can’t tell you the percentage of men and women are failing to do these roles (it’s probably a considerable amount)…but there is a pretty clear picture which gender gets blamed more for not fulfilling their role over the other. That’s why the problem hasn’t been solved or even had the surface scratched yet.

  80. Dave says:

    Full disclosure: I’m waiting for a husband, a man who is God’s best for me to come into my life…

    While it may be certainly true that many women are intentionally delaying marriage, it is also likely true that many women are taught by church leaders to wait endlessly, and not be in a hurry to get married. I was a member of a very conservative church while growing up, and the teachings about marriage were probably the least sensible I ever listened to on any subject.

    The whole process of Christian marriage was shrouded in mystery by church leaders, as if God miraculously brought you a personally tailored person to become your spouse, and you had to wait until the time that He does that.

    My church then went so far as to emphasize “the will of God” in marriage, where God somehow picked someone for you, even though you never even dated them in the past, and you knew virtually nothing about them. Needless to say, most of those marriages often ended in misery, because most people got coupled with spouses they had little to nothing in common with, maybe except for membership in the same congregation.

    Meanwhile, these same preachers would encourage their listeners to be proactive in other areas of their lives.

    I’d say, many of these women are victims of wrong teachings. As men (and disappointed women) begin to speak up, maybe some of them will realize the errors of their ways

  81. Boxer says:

    Dear Dave:

    My church then went so far as to emphasize “the will of God” in marriage, where God somehow picked someone for you, even though you never even dated them in the past, and you knew virtually nothing about them.

    The whole concept of “dating” is suspect in itself, isn’t it? Historically, it seems most people got married shortly after their parents introduced them to each other. The only significant exception being people who were found to be screwing each other without an introduction, and they were usually compelled to get married by their parents anyway, at the pain of being put into a monastery or run out of town.

    Likewise the female delusion of “love”. She’ll know when she’s ready to get married when she magically “falls in love” – right?

    Put two hormone addled teenagers of the opposite sex together, and no matter what the initial conditions are, within a couple of days they’ll both swear that they’re “in love”. It’s hardly brain surgery.

    So, it’s like Dalrock says (over and over and over)… These feminist priests are constantly re-writing the bible to remove the authority of the parents and give it to the children, to remove the costs of being a ho’ and transfer them onto men (largely decent Christian men, not the bad men who are screwing the Christian ho’).

    Boxer

  82. Novaseeker says:

    The whole process of Christian marriage was shrouded in mystery by church leaders, as if God miraculously brought you a personally tailored person to become your spouse, and you had to wait until the time that He does that.

    My church then went so far as to emphasize “the will of God” in marriage, where God somehow picked someone for you, even though you never even dated them in the past, and you knew virtually nothing about them. Needless to say, most of those marriages often ended in misery, because most people got coupled with spouses they had little to nothing in common with, maybe except for membership in the same congregation.

    Dave —

    The underlying problem is that the church has never been particularly comfortable with the dating culture, for good reason, because it often leads to pre-marital sex or pretty damned close to it, and with multiple people. At the same time, the old courtship and chaperoned meeting processes have died off and been replaced, by the church at least, with …. nothing at all. So the church sits there and has some discomfort with dating, has no real other option to offer, and so then just says “hey, just wait, and someone will magically appear, because God provides”. Except that this is NEVER how couples got together, ever in human history. Either there were matchmakers involved, or parents were involved, or there were chaperoned meeting events involved, or there were courtship rituals and rules involved, etc. It was never, ever, “don’t do anything, just wait, and someone will magically appear”. The church has backed itself into this corner, however, by its refusal to cultivate a real alternative other than the dreaded “singles groups”, which everyone hates. So, the result is that as a practical matter the overwhelming majority of Christians participate in the dating culture, most of them end up sinning during that, and most of them end up married at the end of it. A much smaller number abstains from that, and follows the “wait for the spouse to magically appear”, and often ends up either unmarried, or married late and in a very subpar way. It’s because the church won’t provide an alternative to the dating culture that actually works, at the end of the day — and I suspect that the reason for that is that they know that most people are in the dating culture anyway. It’s all a big mess, clearly.

  83. Jason says:

    Exactly Novaseeker. I attend a “large, mega-church” for their men’s fellowship in my city because at my church, all the men are so busy “working a few jobs to make ends meet” or have to “help-out-at-home because Christian men are supposed to be a servant to their wives” now, they don’t have any time for a fellowship…………..and besides the men’s fellowship is a boring Bible study that has little or no help for men…….

    The men I have met at this mega-church are friendly folks in general. One night before the sermon / message a bunch of us were just having casual conversation. The topic of dating and marriage came up…….

    Guy 1 “How is the dating scene down at the Sally Army? It’s a dud here. All the women in this church want Jesus, and you had better make a perfect first impression, or she isn’t going to even have a cup of coffee with you.”

    I smirk and just shrug my shoulders, and show my ring finger that doesn’t have a ring

    Guy 2 “You pretty much have only one chance with one woman in this church. Been coming here for ten years, had one date…..and it since it didn’t turn into a wedding proposal at the end of the date, I’ve been blacklisted by the sisters here.”

    I just smile and nod

    Guy 3 “I just got tired of trying. I have had dates with women who don’t attend this church, and plenty of secular women like me….but after the tenth rejection for a date here, I just ignore them now.”

    I nod, smile, and raise my eyebrows

    Guy 1 “Yeah, but we’ll hear over and over again about how ‘women don’t bite’ and ‘ask us out’ from the pastors and the ladies here”

    I was a bit surprised when I first heard this. Here is a church with well over 1,000 people in each church service on any given Sunday. The men’s fellowship on Tuesday has well over 200 men attending. I went once to a Wednesday night service and a good 500 people were there. Lots of younger men and women (20’s/ 30’s), and a decent amount of men and women in their 40’s (my age group). I thought it was just my church…my Corps has only 20 Soldiers, and on any given Sunday it’s considered a bumper-crop day if we have 50 folks at Holiness Meeting (church service)

    My take? I blame feminism, frat-boy pastors, and american-protestant church culture.

  84. earl says:

    There’s only so much men can do before the thoughts of giving up come in…be it either remaining single or getting vengeance through the player scene. The hearts of women listening to ‘the whispers’ are playing a big role in blocking a lot of this. They are not helping. But I would point out again…if a man is fulfilling his role with God, he is not a failure.

  85. King Alfred says:

    “It’s because the church won’t provide an alternative to the dating culture that actually works, at the end of the day — and I suspect that the reason for that is that they know that most people are in the dating culture anyway. It’s all a big mess, clearly.”

    This matches my experience and observations exactly.

  86. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Dace: My church then went so far as to emphasize “the will of God” in marriage, where God somehow picked someone for you, even though you never even dated them in the past, and you knew virtually nothing about them.

    That’s the New Age/neo-pagan concept of the Soul Mate. The notion that God, the Stars, or the Universe has prepared for you one, and only one, perfect mate. With this mate you will be 100% compatible, always happy, always in full agreement. And because this is your Soul Mate, you are destined to meet, no matter what you do. It’s written in the stars.

    Women not only use this as an excuse to delay marriage. It’s also a moral justification for cheating and divorce. It’s always moral to cheat with a man if he’s your Soul Mate. It’s always moral to divorce a man if you discover that he isn’t your Soul Mate.

  87. Casey says:

    These are the vagaries of perception of a modern culture.
    Societal norms have been swept aside for the ‘greater good’ of equality, diversity, & inclusiveness.

    Equality does NOT mean ‘sameness’.
    Men and women are as different from each other as they are complementary.

    Diversity & inclusiveness is the rallying cry of elites desperate to water down existing cultures.
    Divide & conquer is their real goal. Quite frankly, they’ve achieved it in spades.

    The state’s authority has only increased as it has lit upon the goal of destroying the family unit. With no strong societal pillar to raise children atop of, the increasing dysfunction of each passing generation is to be expected. Again, quite frankly,……….Mission Accomplished.

    The government is now the ‘Ministry of Truth for All Things’

    There is no rolling back of the clock, no concessions from feminists, no awakening of duped women to take back that which has been stolen from them.

    Instead……….we will endure a societal collapse.

    Societies, above all else, require stability; and we currently are one ‘accident’ away from the whole thing unravelling.

  88. Lost Patrol says:

    The men’s fellowship on Tuesday has well over 200 men attending.

    This is where the situation could be salvaged, but it won’t be because there is no man that can lead the men’s fellowship to the light. They won’t let him.

    If such a man were available, and given the platform to proclaim the realities found on this blog for example, the things he would have to say would hit the men like a blast wave. Their churches’ every cherished belief about men and women would be assailed. Long before he could discover the half dozen men that would understand and move toward the light, the others will have ridden him out of town on a rail.

    That’s why it now has to be a targeted operation, bottom up, one or two men at a time, or a lifetime. Only a few can be extracted. A mass breakout is unlikely at this point.

  89. “When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

    ― Sheryl Sandberg, Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead

    Now, make this ‘Christian Kosher’, slap a Jesus fish logo on it, find some loosely fitting scripture that agrees with what the Feminine Imperative has made of modern church culture and BAM! You get Redeemed Girls Ministries. I gotta hand it to them though, there’s a ton of money in pandering to women’s insecurities, selling them a rationale for it and tying it up with a metaphysical “chick crack” bow by saying it’s “God’s” Plan for her.

  90. Boxer says:

    Dear Lost Patrol:

    I assume you’re in such a position yourself, to compose such a response. I’d encourage you to do it.

    Long before he could discover the half dozen men that would understand and move toward the light, the others will have ridden him out of town on a rail.

    Big deal? Who wants to be surrounded by a bunch of male feminists? Why not go out with a bang?

    That’s why it now has to be a targeted operation, bottom up, one or two men at a time, or a lifetime. Only a few can be extracted. A mass breakout is unlikely at this point.

    No.

    By playing it safe and self-censoring, you’re supporting the status quo. The men who would have otherwise been receptive to the truth will see your cowardice and never take you seriously.

    The only reason to go along with these feminist priests is a long-con strategic operation to collapse the church. There is no other reason to give temporal support to these liars, who live at your expense, while pimping your daughters and sisters out.

    If you’re in a position to speak the truth before an audience, then do it. There’s nothing you can’t tell them that isn’t backed up in the text.

    Boxer

  91. Swanny River says:

    Here’s to you Sheryl and all the other women who have broken the chains of patriarchy on this Independence day. You have achieved your dreams, free of anyone to control you. This day should be coopted by feral women everywhere as their favorite holiday, especially here, where a cop is always just around the corner waiting to do his dumbass best at giving you your freedom from your husband. But it is not just that, as the original post points out, these feral beasts also want the social boost of saying they want to be married. Damnable.

  92. Boxer says:

    Here’s to you Sheryl and all the other women who have broken the chains of patriarchy on this Independence day. You have achieved your dreams, free of anyone to control you.

    Yes, freedom that is especially savory, ever since her unfortunate husband, Dave Goldberg, was found dead under suspicious circumstances.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/25/politics/sheryl-sandberg-husband-death-jake-tapper-interview-cnntv/index.html

    Sandberg stopped “grieving” on the talk-show circuit long enough to sign a lucrative sympathy book deal.

    While people have long suspected that Sandberg may have had something to do with his untimely end, my money is on something else. Can you imagine what it must have been like to have married such a miserable shrike? I’d certainly consider checking out early if I were in his shoes.

    Boxer

  93. earl says:

    Sandberg is just projecting her own bad choices onto the herd.

  94. American says:

    I believe the colloquial English terms for women in this predicament are “Spinster” and “Old Maid.” In the Arabian and Persian world they are the “aanissat” or “dakhtar torsheedeh,” the “vieilles filles” in France, the “zitelle” in Italy, and in Germany the “alte Jungfer.”

    Keep denying them their divorce,

    -American (and another honorably discharged enlisted U.S. veteran in addition to the rest of it. You are welcome).

  95. Swanny River says:

    Better than a plastic fish is switching the name from Sandberg to Kassian or Wilikins and present it to every pastor in the country and see if there is any pushback. There will be none, and we know it, so it is already accepted as a valid Christian message, by way of the silent acceptance of it. I don’t go to TGC anymore, any chance there is a dude there who makes the evilness of Sheryl’s message his calling card? Reliability is a godly trait, TGC has that going for them.

  96. Lost Patrol says:

    Dear Boxer,

    “If such a man were available, and given the platform to proclaim the realities…”

    I did not mean to imply I had or could gain such a platform. Only that if there were a man given rein to say these things, his work would be short lived.

    By playing it safe and self-censoring, you’re supporting the status quo. The men who would have otherwise been receptive to the truth will see your cowardice and never take you seriously.

    I had not thought of it that way and it’s a fair point, but walking out into the open to be figuratively killed ends the mission. From my perspective it is too early for that. The few men that have shown receptiveness to the truth certainly understand my – I’ll say reticence – for public proclamations about how far off course we are, and share it. The more they begin to grasp the scope and scale of the opposition, the more they take me seriously and understand my method. Every man that gets it and immediately leaves or is ejected from the scene, is not there to help any other men, albeit he may have gone out with a noble light brigade charge into the guns.

    One man’s coward is another man’s sniper. I’ll just have to be your coward for now.

  97. Boxer says:

    Dear Lost Patrol:

    Please see inside text…

    I had not thought of it that way and it’s a fair point, but walking out into the open to be figuratively killed ends the mission. From my perspective it is too early for that. The few men that have shown receptiveness to the truth certainly understand my – I’ll say reticence – for public proclamations about how far off course we are, and share it.

    I’m not a fan of martyrdom, but I think there’s a happy medium between mousy timidity and full on TOG, in such situations.

    What does such a person stand to lose? I suppose the worst case scenario is that he’ll lose his position as leader in his church. This is a position which is generally unpaid, thankless and only meaningful if one speaks the truth to his brothers. Am I wrong?

    I guess there is some small chance that some of the faggier male feminists in the congregation might meet such a guy after the service and beat him up in the parking lot, but that’s an outlier. Male feminists are generally physical cowards.

    The more they begin to grasp the scope and scale of the opposition, the more they take me seriously and understand my method. Every man that gets it and immediately leaves or is ejected from the scene, is not there to help any other men, albeit he may have gone out with a noble light brigade charge into the guns.

    One man’s coward is another man’s sniper. I’ll just have to be your coward for now.

    Let’s not be dramatic. All you have to do is start constructing critical theory in public. You don’t have to do this in an overly rude or vulgar way. (I think being polite and professional is actually more effective). For moral support, open the bible and associated commentary. All the most brilliant minds for the last century-and-a-half, including Rabbi Saul of Tarsus and Jesus Christ himself, ride with you.

    If the feminists in the crowd start whinging, just ask the naysayers “what? don’t you guys agree with the bible? you know we’re in church, right?”

    Regards,

    Boxer

  98. Gunner Q says:

    Dave@ 8:18 am:
    Full disclosure: I’m waiting for a husband, a man who is God’s best for me to come into my life…

    While it may be certainly true that many women are intentionally delaying marriage, it is also likely true that many women are taught by church leaders to wait endlessly, and not be in a hurry to get married. I was a member of a very conservative church while growing up, and the teachings about marriage were probably the least sensible I ever listened to on any subject.”

    It isn’t just the women who don’t want women to get married. It’s all the white knights, too. They’ll sell women on the Feminist Imperative if they have to because freeing women to be the equal of men is the parallel to freeing men to be the equals of God. White knights can’t directly compete against God (pesky laws of physics) so they “liberate” women as a proxy war.

  99. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @Novaseeker

    The underlying problem is that the church has never been particularly comfortable with the dating culture, for good reason, because it often leads to pre-marital sex or pretty damned close to it, and with multiple people. At the same time, the old courtship and chaperoned meeting processes have died off and been replaced, by the church at least, with …. nothing at all. So the church sits there and has some discomfort with dating, has no real other option to offer, and so then just says “hey, just wait, and someone will magically appear, because God provides”. Except that this is NEVER how couples got together, ever in human history.

    Exactly right. I’d even go so far as to say that the stance the modern church takes with “dating culture” is directly comparable with the way educational establishment has adapted to the way that the sexual marketplace now operates on college campuses. In that environment Tinder dating, one-night stands, and random drunken hookups are probably the most common ways that sex occurs between men and women. College leadership knows this. But they are incredibly apprehensive about addressing it, condemning it, or forbidding it entirely, and a big reason for that is because there’s no way they can tackle the problem without at least considering the women’s behavior in the matter and perhaps putting some limitations on them. That might come off as slut-shaming! So instead, you’re more likely to see them take a band-aid approach to the problem in the most haphazard way possible: They’ll allow the chaos to continue without much comment until a “crisis point” arrives, probably with a female student claiming she was raped. They will then terminate the “problem” with extreme prejudice by arranging a conviction in a kangaroo court for the accused, then rolling out a new set of mandatory strictures and programs targeting the male population in case any of them might be tempted to behave similarly. And in the meantime, the women’s behavior will grow more reckless, the men’s will become more constrained, and both will be far less likely to end up in successful partnerships with the other.

    The modern church tackles “dating culture” with a similar approach: The women will be given largely free reign to indulge themselves because no pastor wants to lose his platform by being labeled as “abusive” or “anti-woman.” This will explain why you can find even “conservative” pastors cheering on the idea that women should prioritize strength, independence, and self-sufficiency even as those traits will be more likely to keep them alone and isolated. And let’s not even get started on what women prefer to dress as even when they’re showing up to what’s supposed to be a house of worship. Don’t expect the leadership to tell them no, especially when it will have the appearance of righteousness to tell the men that they just need to adjust the way they think:

    But what happens when consequences arrive from this approach? When the men lose all hope in finding a virtuous wife within the church, and when they eventually leave the church altogether out of disgust at how ministers bent the rules and subverted their standards for the sake of pleasing one part of their audience, and when families stop forming in the church — what then? Then it’s time for the church to call the men to accountability, and for the likes of Al Mohler and Mark Driscoll to tell the men that it is upon them to accept all of the blame for the decline of marriage and family because they were participants in a “boy culture,” and what the church needs are real Christian men, not Peter Pan man-boys. How dare these men stop working hard to win a prize that the church never had any intention of rewarding them with!

    In both scenarios, we are ruled by cowards, and these days, I find myself hoping that eventually some of the men will end up giving them something new to be afraid of.

  100. Jason says:

    My stances have made me a “social outcast” in my church, but I don’t care. I was removed from leadership of the Boy Scout / Cub Scout program when I started making my views public…..and then they dropped it anyway because of some other issues the BSA was taking a stance on, and I didn’t disagree with that……and then my title of YPSM (Young People’s Srgt Major) was taken away and given to a rather larger-than-average woman who actually belittles and talks down to children and youth…..she’s a public school teacher, so she’s perfect for the ‘leadership position’ and her attitude shows this.

    I am not taken too seriously for the facts of the following:

    * I am not called to be a Salvation Army Officer (its what we call a pastor, so what I say or think doesn’t matter to most folks)
    * I don’t have some ‘amazing job / career / profession’ that labels me ‘a provider’
    * I don’t donate 99% of my income to the Corps
    * I am not married, so I *must* be gay, a loser, a man-child, a boy
    * From day one, when I enlisted as a Soldier, I was not deemed cool by the in-crowd of my Corps. Fortunately I left jr. high in 1985 and I could care less
    * I am viewed not with suspicion, but with curiosity because I actual believe The Solidiers Covenant I signed when I enlisted in the Salvation Army.
    * People cannot find blame with me because I actually *strive* to Christ. The ones who do usually think or give the attitude of “Oh, he thinks he’s more holy / better than us” and it makes them more upset because it doesn’t phase me

  101. Swanny River says:

    Boxer,
    So what role would there be for me, someone who finds an ability to being polite and professional with my brother turds for only about 10 minutes. I don’t go vulgar but I do go intensely direct. They have such infantile comebacks that I get shocked and lose my patience.

  102. Jack Russell says:

    Sheryl Sandberg with those comments inadvertently saved many young men from a future hell. Young men and some blue pill types will read this and remember her comment, and avoid marrying a woman who decides she want to settle down after having her “fun”.

  103. Frank K says:

    Swanny River – As to how to treat the apostates with whom you share Sunday morning, something about shaking the dust from your sandals comes to mind. Don’t waste your time with them. Go someplace else. It’s not like Pastor Bob and his wife (the real Pastor) have any authority over you. They can’t excommunicate or disfellow you from the universal church. All they can do is tell you to never come back to their faux church, which is what you want to do anyway.

  104. Lost Patrol says:

    Dear Boxer,

    mousy timidity

    Is that a promotion?

    What does such a person stand to lose?

    Access.

    Am I wrong?

    You’re probably right, though I have no leadership role to lose.

    Let’s not be dramatic.

    Makes it more fun. I will not disregard your advice, there is definitely a time and place for open dissent. In the meantime I am the commander on the ground here. I know the people and the cultural environment, speak the language, and have been working my area of operations with some success so I do not plan to modify tactics hastily. In this model you are the guy in the pentagon. A reminder of the overall strategy is not out of place, tips and pointers are welcome as they are akin to fresh provisions, and your urging me on is appreciated. As you pointed out up thread, it’s a long game.

  105. Boxer says:

    Dear Fellas:

    So what role would there be for me, someone who finds an ability to being polite and professional with my brother turds for only about 10 minutes. I don’t go vulgar but I do go intensely direct. They have such infantile comebacks that I get shocked and lose my patience.

    One thing I always try to remember (lord knows it’s difficult – lol) is that most of these blue pill guys aren’t being willfully malicious. They live in a sort of false state of consciousness, where they see everything through a feminist lens. They never made a choice to do this. Their vision was clouded by years of intense propaganda.

    I think the New Testament actually has some good tactical advice for men like us. You never see the Jesus character needlessly become hostile. He makes his points with the frame of a master, using humor and good sense. I imagine if there were people who tried his patience, he’d just smile at them and agree to disagree, and leave them in peace.

    Ultimately, I think you have a responsibility not to lie to people, but it’s on them if they refuse to see the truth that’s right in front of them.

    Best,

    Boxer

  106. Oscar says:

    Why doesn’t anyone advise Christian women to wait on God for a career? Or to wait on God for a master’s degree? Could it be that even Christians have to be intentional and be proactive to accomplish anything of value in their lives? Could it be that principle even applies to (gasp!) marriage?

  107. Otto Lamp says:

    @Rollo,

    Sheryl Sandberg is speaking at the Willow Creek Leadership Summit. Given her position in the promotional materials, if she isn’t the keynote speaker, she’s pretty darned close. The Willow Creek Association is an association of 450 CHRISTIAN CHURCHES!

    https://www.willowcreek.com/events/leadership/

    Pastors preach this stuff, because it’s what women want to hear–plain and simple. It’s how they keep the women coming back and the money rolling in. I wish I wasn’t so cynical, but It’s clear to me that evangelicalism money has become their god. “…who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.”

    The men are too wussified or biblically uneducated to object.

  108. BillyS says:

    Dave,

    Several good replies already, but blaming “no dating” is far off the proper target. Dating is a historical oddity as Boxer noted. People didn’t data (in the modern form) 200+ years ago. Yet marriages happened and survived.

    The main problem is that women are taught foolishness, even by churches. That undermines marriages, however they are formed. Common interests are helpful, but a commitment to make a marriage work is far more important than a common past interest in the Beatles, for example.

    A women who learned to like or at least support the desires of a husband, while he served to properly lead and care for his family would do far more than any number of pre-engagement dates.

  109. BillyS says:

    I met with the first woman I was not married to last night. It lasted about 20 minutes until she decided I needed more time to heal and immediately walked out because I was no longer a candidate in her eyes. She couldn’t even be cordial and talk after that point.

    It was a waste in one aspect, but it did help me learn or reinforce some things about the character of women. Even those who claim to serve God really serve themselves far more than they will admit.

    Rejection is never fun, but it was good to learn quick that someone is not the right direction and it pushed me more toward the direction of those here who have rejected women overall. What a waste of a society we have….

  110. BillyS says:

    Lost Patrol,

    That’s why it now has to be a targeted operation, bottom up, one or two men at a time, or a lifetime. Only a few can be extracted. A mass breakout is unlikely at this point.

    It would be interesting to develop a series of questions that could be asked of church leaders that could lead to the truth, but not blast them with it, at least initially. That would help with making inroads on these issues without immediately getting rejected. Most would still reject change, but sneaking the truth in with a question may have a better chance than trying to do it bluntly.

    Jason,

    I could not stay in any church where I felt like that about the leadership. You may want to consider where your true loyalties lie (to your Savior, not any specific church).

    I am facing my own decision in these areas here. I am not sure I want to keep going to someplace I get very little out of. I understand that being involved with a church is not just about what we get, but we should get something or we are wasting our time and focus. Some extra sleep would be better than attending a service just to punch a time card.

  111. feeriker says:

    @ Jason:

    and then my title of YPSM (Young People’s Srgt Major) was taken away and given to a rather larger-than-average woman who actually belittles and talks down to children and youth…..she’s a public school teacher, so she’s perfect for the ‘leadership position’ and her attitude shows this.

    The Salvation Army puts women in leadership roles?

    Major red flag!

  112. Jason says:

    Billy, I know where you are coming from, however no church is going to have what men here speak of and need. I like the Sally Army and I have met some very dedicated Soldiers over my years here who DO believe the Bible and live it. Minority? Yes. But we’re here! As a “church” that does a lot of solid work worldwide, and still has an excellent stewardship reputation of helping the poor, the addict, the lost, and the broken I will stick with them for now. If and when they ever turn their back on Christ….and this could happen….well, I will then find a new place to worship!

  113. Jason says:

    The Sally Army has always put women in leadership roles since its inception in 1865. The problem is that competent women (women who were in God centered marriages, had a disciplined mind etc) were once selected. Today, no.

  114. Swanny River says:

    Some extra sleep may be more productive, desirable, and logical, but determining if it is better takes wisdom.You know that, just letting my inner-harpy out a bit. Not only are the general principles of not neglecting the fellowship and also being a cheerful giver in play here, but those have to be applied to you in this situation. That is a difficult call in my opinion, especially on the web.

  115. Boxer says:

    I met with the first woman I was not married to last night. It lasted about 20 minutes until she decided I needed more time to heal and immediately walked out because I was no longer a candidate in her eyes. She couldn’t even be cordial and talk after that point.

    She did you a huge favor, and you should be grateful. She could easily have commenced to stringing you along, draining you of time and energy.

    There are, what, four billion women in the world? Some of these won’t like you. It’s all good. Next time, don’t give her the satisfaction of leaving early. Do what your boy Boxer does, and hit on her sister, instead.

  116. feeriker says:

    BillyS says:

    I met with the first woman I was not married to last night. It lasted about 20 minutes until she decided I needed more time to heal and immediately walked out because I was no longer a candidate in her eyes. She couldn’t even be cordial and talk after that point.

    You didn’t mention whether or not this was a pre-arranged date, but if it was, I’d recommend, from my own experience of having been in your shoes, not to rely on the dating scene, specifically match-ups with strangers. Not that you’re not ready to move on and find love again, but a successful relationship is most likely to be one that evolves out of a meeting or interaction involving the activities of daily life, situations where you might not be actively looking for love. To be clear, this differs from the “waiting for God to ‘stork’ me a mate” approach in that you would actively work to develop the relationship once the connection is made, rather than passively wait ror “God to light the match.”

    @Otto Lamp:

    Pastors preach this stuff, because it’s what women want to hear–plain and simple. It’s how they keep the women coming back and the money rolling in. I wish I wasn’t so cynical, but It’s clear to me that evangelicalism money has become their god. “…who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.”

    The men are too wussified or biblically uneducated to object.

    “The power of accurate observation is commonly called ‘cynicism’ by those who have not got it.” ~ George Bernard Shaw

    Your observation above is spot-on. Any “church” that would invite the likes of Sheryl (((Sandberg))) to be a keynote speaker has essentially relinquished its “Christian” credentials and does not deserve the time of day from real believers.

    The hucksters coordinating this event know their audience/market all too well, that women, despite being the least economically productive segment of society, have disproportionate spending power and these guys are determined to tap it by tickling the ladies’ ears with worldly heresy to the point of bringing them to orgasm. Collection plates and bank accounts don’t get filled and UMC lifestyles are not sustained by telling unpopular and culturally unacceptable truths, even –especially– if they are God’s truths.

  117. Lost Patrol says:

    @BillyS, Jason

    I do not reject Boxer’s notion of laying it all out in some gathering and letting the chips fall, but I am not there yet. I have instead taken things I’ve learned on this blog and done exactly what you propose. I’ve spoken with individual church leaders and random men that seemed likely candidates to me based on observation. All non-confrontational from my point of view, just questions on things that don’t seem to align biblically speaking. Most, having lived their whole lives inside the same fog of a feminine primary social order as me, are initially bewildered. They don’t really know quite what I’m getting at. Soon enough, the leaders have become mildly annoyed and sought to point out my errors, but other men not in the hierarchy have sometimes responded favorably. These men I continue to feed information. Frankly, I’m only just ahead of them as I get info from Dalrock, et al. and pass it along.

    So for some men I have become an object probably worthy of monitoring, but they have had to think about the subject at hand. For others I am becoming a kindred spirit in their own questions about why we give so much ground to secular feminism. Small numbers and likely to stay that way, but not zero. I enjoy sharing this info with them because any men that can break out of the paradigm is a win for our side in my view.

    To leave here now would be to find similar situations elsewhere and just keep leaving. To leave altogether I would find equally difficult for reasons that Swanny points out. So I’m working to extract specific men from ignorance to the knowledge I’ve been lucky enough to get. Perhaps those men at least will have better chances in their own lives, and can further pass around the ideas. I doubt a critical mass can be reached such that the whole place wakes up.

  118. BillyS says:

    Swany,

    The Scripture about not forsaking fellowship is taken out of context for most. It was speaking about Jewish people who believed in the Messiah (Jesus) and then were going to retreat to Judaism because of persecution from other Jews who had not followed that path.

    It says nothing about attending Sunday morning services, or such things. Fellowshipping house to house would be more appropriate, but who does that, even in very busy churches?

  119. BillyS says:

    Feeriker,

    I connected with her through a christian dating site. I am not out any money as neither of us ordered anything from the place we met, but it was still an interesting experience. Her profile indicated godly things, but I suspect things are really far different. I don’t just want to be angry over things and blame her for the abrupt end, but I strongly suspect I am right. Someone at my church mentioned that he was dating a women (he has two young boys) until she started trying to argue with him that she knew the Scriptures better than he did. I bet that concept runs deeper in “godly women” than most realize or would want to recognize.

    Not that you’re not ready to move on and find love again, but a successful relationship is most likely to be one that evolves out of a meeting or interaction involving the activities of daily life, situations where you might not be actively looking for love.

    You are almost certainly correct. I wouldn’t jump into marriage next week, but having connections to others is valuable, however far things go. Even ending the date a bit more cordially would have added value, but she was clearly just looking for one thing. And guys are supposed to only look for one thing….

    Boxer,

    I have no idea if she has a sister, but I am unlikely to see her again and I doubt I would have anything to do with someone related to her based on what I saw. Stuff runs in families too much after all….

    Lost Patrol,

    I am thinking about those questions to ask myself, which is why I brought it up. I am not sure what I am going to do about my current church. It is tolerable, but I have not made connections and I suspect I would push any chance of connections away if I went full bore. I am truly not sure what I want to do. I need some close friends, but finding those is a major challenge in modern society.

    Some of my hobbies/interests do not have the kind of people I really want to buddy up with. Though neither do most churches, even those I am close in doctrine with.

  120. MarcusD says:

    Speaking of a “pot of gold”:

    Divorce – is this possible?
    https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1057196

    I hope she has a good lawyer, but yes, men can get spousal support, too.

  121. feeriker says:

    I need some close friends, but finding those is a major challenge in modern society.

    Ain’t that God’s golden truth!

    Perhaps an even more damning indictment of the status quo is the fact that so many (most?) of us, try as we might, can’t even establish deep, lasting friendships with our brethren inside the Body of Christ.

  122. PokeSalad says:

    Sheryl Sandberg is speaking at the Willow Creek Leadership Summit. Given her position in the promotional materials, if she isn’t the keynote speaker, she’s pretty darned close.

    She’s listed as Leadership Summit “faculty,” whatever that means…

  123. BillyS says:

    Perhaps an even more damning indictment of the status quo is the fact that so many (most?) of us, try as we might, can’t even establish deep, lasting friendships with our brethren inside the Body of Christ.

    I definitely agree. Churches are not setup to perform one of their core missions, truly connecting their members.

  124. seventiesjason says:

    BillyS

    Men like us who post here won’t find deep friendships in church. Just accept that 🙂

    Friendship concerning men in church today for the most part means getting together and watching a football game. Every run of the mill guy in church today loves football. If you don’t like or watch football you might as be wearing a dress. They make it out like its the only thing guys do. Part of that is the fact that for most married guys in church, its their only escape. They are so tied to the house, work, church activitie, keeping up with their fellow churchians; watching pro sports at home is the only way they can decompress.

    I hike, camp, read, collect vinyl, into repairing vintage stereo equipment, I still skateboard. I go to theater to see plays and performances…..go out for Chinese at 3am….thrift for cool clothing that fits my style and doesnt look stupid on me…..You get it.

    Men in my church and other Christians I know only like sports and they fob this off as real manhood. Probably because their wives allow it. Also because its a safe medium in Christian culture as a man. Even for many single guys in church sadly.

    I hang with men in my church, and some of their company I do enjoy but frankly I don’t have any real close friends in church. My stances have kept me at a distance from most, and I don’t like football. My worldly friends are no better. They cuss, talk only about sex, and tell beer n fart jokes. I am a loner now for the most part and its fine by me. I know who I am in Christ.

    I would like a real close friend or two but with my Christian walk which is lived in a real radical manner…..it would leave me solitary and a bit marginalized. It bothered me at first, but now I have learned and realized that I should not be surprised.

    I’m pushing 50 now and my journey with Christ has been a very unexpected adventure. Too bad most of my Brothers don’t want this. Too bad a Christian sister missed out on this coolness with me. Her loss. Not mine. I’m having a great time 🙂

  125. Minesweeper says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4665018/Women-freezing-eggs-t-man.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4666092/Former-escort-says-aren-t-good-men-left.html

    both articles with multiple talking points.

    in other news, at some point the utter lies about female fertility and how long it naturally lasts for a significant number of woman will have to be talked about.

    Ive had multiple close friends\family have infertile wives at mid 20’s. Dalrock had some stats a while back showing women getting IVF mid 20’s – I think (?). My best man’s wife needed IVF at mid 20’s.

    we are looking at losing a generation of children here as well as the women.

    female fertility is prob at its highest when it just starts(9-16) and it may only last for some a few short years. considering as well the amount of women (most in my fam+friends) kept financially by their man after marriage, who dont use anything at all above their education from when they were 9 or 10. and considering none of them pay anything back from their education in tax’s. you can really understand the ethos of civilisation before.

    its a luxury to be educated and to never pay its cost back. its also a luxury to get all the benefits of society\welfare\health that you have never paid for.

    obviously this will all end soon, you can live high on an unlimited credit card paid for by someone you will never meet or are obligated too.

    our civ will reap what it has sown. just hope to heck we are all somewhere else.

  126. Dale says:

    Jason and BillyS:
    > I understand that being involved with a church is not just about what we get, but we should get something or we are wasting our time and focus.

    Abandon the cesspool, and try a different pool. I have found the women in immigrant-heavy churches to be obviously less immoral than those at churches formed mostly by native Canadians.
    And, worst case, I get a chance to practice my Russian. There are likely churches that are both immigrant and English; I have not looked.

    And, some men use THIS place as a forum to meet together with other believers. I think it was Gunner Q who wrote something to that effect. I would prefer it to be in person, but this is better than nothing.

    What we need is a post where interested men could post their city. Then connect as you wish with people from where you live. Dalrock, could we pretty-please have a stub post for this? Unfortunately, if this blog has a community of only a few hundred, few connections will be possible. But we can try…
    If these meetings become nothing more than gripe sessions, they will have little positive value. But if we gather together, and have games, theology and friendship, they would be of great value. I used to be in such a male-only group, and it was great.

  127. Minesweeper says:

    from the 1st link:
    “‘Women tell us frequently that they are freezing their eggs because the men they meet feel threatened by their success and so are unwilling to commit to starting a family together.’”

    the men are only threatened by your success relative to theirs as they know you will kick them to the curb almost instantly after you have used them to sire the number of children you want to have. even if you earn far more than him now, men now know your get out plan from alimony is easy.

    1: either go part time or resign from job (particularly without telling him – bonus points)
    2: file divorce, and claim breaking heart status as you want to spend time with your children
    3: then go back part time if at all, milk former father for 25 years who is now reduced to babysitter every other week, if he is that lucky.

    the men know the only way they will be allowed to stay in the household and have any form of meaningful relationship with their kids is if they are viewed as higher status than her and worht keeping around.

    but no, their is no way in hell these women will ever see things as they really are.

  128. feeriker says:

    “‘Women tell us frequently that they are freezing their eggs because the men they meet feel threatened by their success and so are unwilling to commit to starting a family together.’”

    The good news is that governments and courts are creating more and more disncentives for men to be anonymous sperm donors (a supremely stupid and evil thing to begin with). This means, “ladies,” that the odds of your frozen eggs ever getting fertilized by some short-sighted chump are diminishing with each passing year. You’ll never put a child through bastardy, and that’s a beautiful thing. Enjoy your cat-filled studio apartment (and the State-run nursing home, where you’ll die alone, unnoticed, and without family to see you off).y

  129. BillyS says:

    Seventiesjason,

    I want some solid connections. I don’t want to even attempt to bond with worldly men, so that makes it a huge challenge. I have some closer acquaintances through a hobby, but no one I get together with regularly.

    Though that has been my life, so it is not surprising now. I just know I am facing my older years with no one, since I am the only one left in my close family, except for a son I have a decent relationship with. I suspect I will live with his quirks and try to move closer to where he is. We were talking about he and his family moving in with me since I have more than enough space now and a master room/bath to hide in if I want. I am not certain that will happen though, for a wide range of reasons.

    He will likely face his own challenges in marriage as he grows older due to the history of his wife’s family, but I have given up the crystal ball for that.

    Dale,

    I am anonymous for a reason now. Too much risk these days, though I am considering just jumping in the deep end at some point. I have met with one participant here in person, but I don’t expect that thread would work as well as many would hope. Too many might use it to attack anyone who replied, making it more dangerous than it seems. That is another sad fact of modern life.

    https://billsmithvision.wordpress.com/2017/01/19/the-connection-landscape-at-the-local-church/

  130. Minesweeper says:

    “BillyS says: The Scripture about not forsaking fellowship is taken out of context for most. It was speaking about Jewish people who believed in the Messiah (Jesus) and then were going to retreat to Judaism because of persecution from other Jews who had not followed that path.!

    great info, thank you.

  131. BillyS says:

    I have started to look into some Meetup groups in the area, in many areas, so I may try that for connection chances.

  132. earl says:

    “‘Women tell us frequently that they are freezing their eggs because the men they meet feel threatened by their success and so are unwilling to commit to starting a family together.’”

    Projection, projection, projection. If she is willing to commit to starting a family, she wouldn’t be taking her eggs out to freeze them. It does them no good in the long run.

  133. earl says:

    ‘Ive had multiple close friends\family have infertile wives at mid 20’s. Dalrock had some stats a while back showing women getting IVF mid 20’s – I think (?). My best man’s wife needed IVF at mid 20’s.’

    I often wonder how many of those women have been on birth control for many years…or had some negative consequence fertility wise from too many sexual partners. Sex ed in this country is terrible because it never addresses those things on top of the emotional and spiritual problems.

  134. infowarrior1 says:

    @Hugh Mann
    Assuming your wife is 30+ you certainly dodged the a bullet given your wives degrading eggs. Your descendants will certainly pay for it. While hardly and issue on the part of the man in order to get provisioning ability for women the consequences are much more dire.

    Suppose your wife is younger in her 20s then that brood of yours will certainly be larger.

    Its lucky also that with modern tech older moms are much more likely to survive childbirth.

  135. Jason says:

    Women tell us that the rate of heart attacks have skyrocketed. They will tell us the usual drivel of “we do everything today” and “men won’t step up and help” every excuse…………yet this is never DARED questioned

    Side effects from PROLONGED USE of the Birth Control Pill or variances of this method (injection etc) are heart attack, cardiovascular issues and the like after long term use. I even know this, I remember learning this in health class back in the 1980’s in a small,conservative, country school

  136. earl says:

    BC pills are probably as bad if not worse than cigarettes when it comes to long term health issues. They also trick the woman’s body into thinking it is pregnant…so they get all the unpleasantness of that without actually having a kid. Combined with how scientists found out it affects how they choose a mate. Those things were really the current pandora’s box when it comes to a lot of our modern gender problems.

  137. Frank K says:

    “Every run of the mill guy in church today loves football. If you don’t like or watch football you might as be wearing a dress.”

    I might watch an NFL game if the local team is playing. I have known for a long time that American Football is boring and can’t bring myself to watch a game where “other teams” are playing, not even the Super Bowl. I’ve tried and found it excruciatingly boring. For one thing, it’s an endless litany of commercials, which is actually more than the actual play time. And don’t get me started on the pro feminist month where the players wear pink. It’s definitely become the No Fun League.

    Not to mention that the NFL has mediocrity built into it, what with the draft rewarding poor teams and that they share TV revenues equally.

  138. Frank K says:

    “Why do women crave to be desired?”

    A few years ago I was chatting with a 30ish woman who was lamenting “where have all the good men gone?”

    As our chat progressed she actually spilled the beans and said that she would rather be desired than loved. It was clear that she wanted a hot bad boy to commit to her (she also bragged about her time on the carousel). I flat out told her that was why she wasn’t married and would never be married. She had also hit the wall, and hard. Suddenly the hot bad boys were not even interested in casual sex with her.

    Anyway, when she told me that she would rather be carnally desired than loved, that was perhaps my red pill moment. I knew that harlots thought this way, but to meet a middle class woman who would publicly admit this (and thus admit she was also a harlot), simply blew me away.

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  140. PokeSalad says:

    IRT Sandberg —

    The Willow Creek summit thing intrigued me, so I did more looking last night and found, to my complete and utter non-surprise, that my nominal church (I’m a member from my BP days, but haven’t attended in years) is a member of that cabal, and a perusal of its current website shows the usual “Man Up!” videoconferences, Russell Moore conferences, women empowerment, yada yada.

    Thus, I was inspired this morning to do a little administrative housecleaning….the letter was posted about an hour ago.

  141. Swanny River says:

    I like the distinction between desired and loved, it is a bit difficult to see a practical distinction, but I think you are saying they would rather have a powerful man grab them in their private zone than a normal dude fumble around asking them out for a bike ride or coffee? No doubt, but let’s put some teeth to that, of women who are a 7 and below, I think it is less than 20% who would think that. Sheryl is feral, but I doubt she desired desire more. That is what the original post is about, I should reread it probably.

  142. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @Earl

    BC pills are probably as bad if not worse than cigarettes when it comes to long term health issues. They also trick the woman’s body into thinking it is pregnant…so they get all the unpleasantness of that without actually having a kid. Combined with how scientists found out it affects how they choose a mate. Those things were really the current pandora’s box when it comes to a lot of our modern gender problems.

    True, and there are likely costs to it beyond even this. I recently found a link to a story in the Telegraph concerning some “unexpected” effects of hormonal contraception in which male river fish were now displaying female traits, showing reduced sperm quality, and even laying eggs after displaying traces of hormonal ingredients found in birth control medication. The article only discusses how the chemicals apparently entered the water supply and affected the development of males in fish populations, but what do you suppose the likelihood is that this has repercussions on unborn male children as well? Scientists are already admitting that testosterone levels in men have been progressively dropping for roughly 50 years. What pharmaceutical innovation was it that also started to be widely used somewhere around, oh say, 50 years ago? Anyone want to suppose a possible connection, or would doing that just that be “misogynist”?

    Kudos to the Telegraph for at least being willing to run this, though I wouldn’t count on too many who read it being able to make the connection to the Pill’s possible effects on men. I only found it because of this tweet from a “Christian feminist:”

    . . . Proving once again that even when the males are taking the heavy damage it will still always be all about the women.

  143. Gunner Q says:

    Dale @ July 4, 2017 at 11:48 pm:
    “And, some men use THIS place as a forum to meet together with other believers. I think it was Gunner Q who wrote something to that effect. I would prefer it to be in person, but this is better than nothing.”

    Yeah, probably me. Too many guys in Commiefornia are pozzed, others don’t speak English, others are low-IQ drunk sports nuts and the Internet has replaced meatspace for the remainder. Somehow I’ve ended up surrounded by people who use terms like “staycation”.

    On that note, the California Scottish Festivals are coming up in Monterey then Pleasanton. Anybody else going?

  144. Frank K says:

    “No doubt, but let’s put some teeth to that, of women who are a 7 and below, I think it is less than 20% who would think that.”

    The alpha widow I mentioned wasn’t even a 4. And she was very clear that having a man who wants to ravage her was more important than having a man who would cherish and love her.

    It makes sense, when you think about all the post wall women who frivorce their husbands for a bad boy who almost immediately dumps them.

  145. Frank K says:

    I should add that they want to be desired by the “right man”. They often find hubby desiring them to be repugnant.

  146. Hank Flanders says:

    constrainedlocus

    No Mandy. That’s not the case anymore. They’re aren’t coming. At least not for your hand.
    You are 35.
    Your health, fertility and your sexual best are all distant, blurred images within your life’s rear view mirror.

    Novaseeker
    In any case, the picture you posted is from 2011, when she was 29.

    Technically, Mandy is currently 38, as she said she was 37 when she wrote this post in June of 2016:

    http://thesinglewoman.net/2016/06/17/stop-apologizing-high-standards/

    Anyway, Dalrock, and other commenters, I’ve been loving the last two posts and the comments associated with them. These insights are brilliant, and I agree that a good bit of the problem with women remaining single so long when they would obviously rather not be after a certain age is that they’re not raised to value marriage.

    They’re raised to value career, education, etc, and that’s a bad thing, which is obviously not news to the readers here or me at this point in my life, but it would have been when I was 18-22 (and far beyond). As is common, in my circles, it was considered quite virtuous to put marriage off until after college for both men and women. When we were 18 or 19, I even remember hearing one of my female friends saying wasn’t getting married for 10 years. As far as I know, she’s still single, and she I are comparable in age to Mandy Hale.

    Of course, I’m still single, too, but I never had any intention of being so or even waiting until after college to get married, and even now, I don’t pretend I like being unmarried, because I can “choose which side of the bed to sleep on” and dubious other reasons like that. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more sour grapes video in my life. At first, I thought Hale was being facetious in that video, but no, apparently, that’s not the case.

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  148. Hank Flanders says:

    Dalrock, could you move my above post here:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/07/05/she-doesnt-need-a-man-why-hasnt-god-sent-her-a-husband/#comments

    [D: Unfortunately I can’t move comments. But if you want to post it there I can remove the dupe here.]

  149. Hank Flanders says:

    OK, I tried copying and pasting it over there, but it’s not showing up. Maybe it’s in Limbo…Thanks, anyway.

  150. DrTorch says:

    ” So the church sits there and has some discomfort with dating, has no real other option to offer, and so then just says “hey, just wait, and someone will magically appear, because God provides”. ”

    “Why doesn’t anyone advise Christian women to wait on God for a career? Or to wait on God for a master’s degree?”

    Great points, and the answer is right up Dalrock’s alley as an economist: incentives.

    Don’t forget, Christian colleges have an industry going where strongly hint at being able to find your kid a Godly spouse. I’m not sure when that became desirable over someone who grew up with your kid and went to the same church, but it is a selling point. And many pastors love their alma maters, and found their spouse there so, “it works!” (Similar goes for para-Church org’s like Cru [Campus Crusade] and Inter-Varsity)

    And second, as mentioned many times, pastors love to be the AMOG and love to get free labor from adoring women in the pews. Put a husband and children there and you get a potential conflict of interest. There was a mantra when secular hiring practices were more liberal, “Hire a single woman and a married man.” Well if you’re a pastor you know to look for that single woman in your church.

  151. Swanny River says:

    Since you two did the hard work with your great insights, let me take the easy next step and guess that the defense would be that an earlier 401k will be a bigger one and be a bigger gift for the eventual husband and family. They would say that settles it, and since an early start is good, to them it is a godly decision to send the kid to a Christian college. They never see it as church vs college.

  152. James K says:

    @Mandy

    I actually feel badly for women who were in a long term relationship, often including engagement, they thought would end in marriage but they were dumped. This isn’t the same as carousel riding or dumping nice betas.

    It is true that our image of carousel riding – enjoying sex with dozens of different attractive men – does not apply to all women who find themselves single at 35. Such a woman may have had only two relationships of 8 years each.

    However, such a lifestyle is just as bad as the carousel for squandering one’s life opportunities. It also resembles the carousel in that the woman is excused from asking whether her partner is “husband material”: she can choose someone who is merely attractive and hope that he will offer commitment at some point in the distant future.

  153. Luke says:

    Re the Christian college, there is a large, regionally well-known one in my town. It has a M/F ratio of about 1:3. When during the most recent oilpatch downturn I drove a taxi for a year, I periodically hauled some of the female students from that school to the airport. They would commonly volunteer that becoming married and starting a family was extremely important to them (to their credit). I often could not resist asking them why they chose to attend a college where women outnumbered men by 3x. I never received a coherent answer…

  154. Frank K says:

    ” They would commonly volunteer that becoming married and starting a family was extremely important to them (to their credit). I often could not resist asking them why they chose to attend a college where women outnumbered men by 3x. I never received a coherent answer”

    Well, obviously they didn’t want to get married and have a family now. First they need to have careers, and travel and “explore themselves”. Then as the big 30 approaches then it’s time to reel in a thirsty Churchian beta chump.

    This makes me think a coworker from the past. She was reasonably attractive, athletic, actually had a STEM career (programmer) and was a Churchian. She seemed like a catch. But there was a problem … she had a bit of a temper problem. One coworker described her as 49% honey, 51% bitch. She did stick the landing and married a Churchian provider, retired from work and had kids.

  155. “MarcusD says:
    July 5, 2017 at 1:47 am
    Why do women crave to be desired?…”

    I’m firmly convinced (from past experience) that women “crave to be desired” primarily so that they can enjoy the pleasure of viciously rejecting any man who approaches them, whom they find ‘unattractive’. I also believe that this is THE main reason why women so desperately fear and hate losing their youth and beauty when they ‘hit The Wall’.

  156. “Luke says:
    July 6, 2017 at 8:41 am
    …They would commonly volunteer that becoming married and starting a family was extremely important to them…”

    Since their actions didn’t correspond with their words, ignore what they said. They were probably parroting what ‘sounds nice and moral’, to both make themselves ‘feel good’ and to appear moral and righteous.
    In reality (i.e., translating their ‘Hamster-speak’), what they most likely meant was “becoming married and starting a family ‘someday’ was important to them” — but only AFTER career, traveling, ‘finding themselves’, etc., you know…

  157. tsotha says:

    Carrie marries Mr Big at 42! That horse-faced feminist shrew couldn’t marry Mr B at 24!

    Eh… she looked pretty scrumptious at age 26 in LA Story.

  158. tsotha says:

    However, such a lifestyle is just as bad as the carousel for squandering one’s life opportunities. It also resembles the carousel in that the woman is excused from asking whether her partner is “husband material”: she can choose someone who is merely attractive and hope that he will offer commitment at some point in the distant future.

    If a man won’t commit after 18 months or so he doesn’t want to marry her. He might marry her if she delivers an ultimatum, but he doesn’t want to and will be happy as things are until the shine wears off.

    Women used to understand this stuff.

  159. feeriker says:

    If a man won’t commit after 18 months or so he doesn’t want to marry her. He might marry her if she delivers an ultimatum, but he doesn’t want to and will be happy as things are until the shine wears off.

    By the time she delivers the “marry me, or move on” ultimatum, he’s probably grown so sick of her bitchy bullshit that he’s more than ready to move on. The only way he could possibly be persuaded to stay is if they’ve had a kid or two together (STUPID move, that, on both of their parts).

    Women used to understand this stuff.

    Women used to be capable of lots of things. Realization of the true degree of enstupidation, infantilization and indoctrination that has taken place over the last half century might just horrify women into getting it together again if they could step back into time and observe their grandmothers and great-grandmothers busy at life.

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  163. I find it disturbing that most of the commenters here seem either not to know or not to care that women are as much the victims of feminism as are men.

    Feminism has corrupted our society to the detriment of all people. The so-called cock carousel begets PUA begets cynicism, disrespect and distrust between the sexes begets a society in which people are discouraged from commitments. Likewise, feminism has corrupted family law so that men are leery of marriage to the detriment of both them and their potential wives. Feminism in the job market means women push men out of the careers that women want their eventual husbands to have, leaving them with fewer financially successful marriage candidates.

    The young women of today did not create the world they were brought up in and will have to live in. I wish people here, including Dalrock, were more attuned to that fact.

  164. Farm Boy says:

    The young women of today did not create the world they were brought up in and will have to live in. I wish people here, including Dalrock, were more attuned to that fact.

    Well, they seem to be exploiting it for all that it is worth. Furthermore, they don’t seem to be complaining much. At least until they are 35

  165. Hank Flanders says:

    Steven MqCueen,

    Have you read this article by Roosh? Pay particular attention to his bullet-point litmus test:

    http://www.rooshv.com/why-the-female-anti-feminist-is-a-feminist-in-disguise

    The point is that most women are still pretty complicit with feminism even if they claim not to be. (By the same token, most men probably are, too, at least in the West).

  166. Boxer says:

    Dear Steven:

    I find it disturbing that most of the commenters here seem either not to know or not to care that women are as much the victims of feminism as are men.

    The young women of today did not create the world they were brought up in and will have to live in. I wish people here, including Dalrock, were more attuned to that fact.

    The author of Dalrock has actually been very fair to women, in my estimation. I’ve never seen an actual woman bashing article here. If such stuff were present, I’m sure I’d find it boring, and wander off someplace else.

    You’re right about many of the comments, but bear in mind, a lot of the men who come here have just been screwed in ugly divorces and etc. The comment section of this blog is a lot like the feminist support group. Most of the women who go to such things can be found venting spleens about “kill all men” and stuff. Most of them actually don’t hate men. They’re just angry. There as here, the expression of anger is a necessary part of emotional rebalancing. Though, there is always a danger of becoming stuck in that ugly space, most of the people who do such things resume living a happy and more balanced life later.

    Best,

    Boxer

  167. feeriker says:

    Well, they seem to be exploiting it for all that it is worth. Furthermore, they don’t seem to be complaining much. At least until they are 35

    Yup.

    To repeat what I have said hereabouts before and will repeat as often as necessary until people wake the fuck up and see the obvious:

    ALL women, whether or not they self-identify as feminists, have gained invaluable “spill-over benefits” from feminism over the last half century that they have no intention of giving up in order to restore society to a stable path. These “spill-over benefits include all forms of contraception (available on demand), abortion on demand, financial independence (which, for married women, means being able to spend recklessly and rack up debt and financial ruin, all on hubby’s tab), no-fault divorce on demand (with accompanying “cash and prizes”), and preferential (i.e., meritless) treatment in employment hiring and education.

    NO woman, no matter how “anti-feminist” or “Christian” she tries to convince the world that she is, is going to cede these gains, which give her “options” and “ways out/GetOutOfJailFree Cards” the likes of which no women in history have ever enjoyed, due to the fact that their exercise leads to civilizational ruin.

    TL;DR version: if women were sufficiently self-aware (which they obviously are not) to see themselves as “victims” of feminism, they would have organized decades ago to put a stop to said “victimization,” with hordes of white knights providing them with all the firepower they could ever ask for. But they didn’t and they didn’t, meaning that they most certainly do NOT see themselves as “victims” of feminism, but beneficiaries.

    To be clear, my gripe with “Steve MqCueen” is not with his contention that women are victims of feminism. They certainly are. It’s with the idea that we should feel sorry for them when they consume like fine wine the poison that they KNOW is obviously killing them and then blame everybody but themselves for their own self-destructive choices.

  168. Boxer says:

    Feeriker et. al.:

    It’s with the idea that we should feel sorry for them when they consume like fine wine the poison that they KNOW is obviously killing them and then blame everybody but themselves for their own self-destructive choices.

    You fellas will enjoy this laughable clip of a so-called antifeminist woman (who looks appropriately like an ugly butch bull dyke).

    https://v5k2c2.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/help/

    It’s only about 5 minutes long. Note the pseudointellectual sheen on what is a non-stop whine about the effects of feminism, couched to look like a critique of feminism.

    This is a new feminist tactic, which is particularly dangerous, since it’s based on (largely) true talking points, in service of typical feminist goals.

    Boxer

  169. BillyS says:

    My exwife would loudly proclaim she is anti-feminist, yet she exploited the system to its hilt, along with many other things, in her recent choice to nuke our 30 year marriage.

    She would claim to not support feminism, yet can’t complain about most of the outcomes, except when they directly harm her. Then she will say the result is bad, but we have to avoid returning to a Troglodyte past, or at least the one she imagined me trying to enforce on her.

  170. Luke says:

    Women jumping in and saying “feminism hurts women TOO!!!!!!” I find analogous to someone bringing up (in a discussion about second-hand tobacco smoke) that smokers get lung cancer, too. It’s hard to have much sympathy in either case.

  171. feeriker says:

    @ Boxer:

    Inre that video interview with Melanie Phillips, I didn’t even make it past the 15-second mark when the host quoted the following from one of Phillips’ books:

    Male breadwinning is neither arbitrary nor anachronistic. It is important both to cement masculine identity and to civilize aggressive male characteristics.

    At that point I already knew that anything and everything else that this ugly bitch had to say would be nothing but cuckservative feminist twaddle and that listening further would be both pointless and infuriating.

  172. Novaseeker says:

    As Feeriker rightly says, virtually all contemporary women in this culture are “de facto” feminists in that they accept the “good parts” of feminism, even though they may dislike the feminist label (today, women under 40 who use the label feminist are normally very hardcore ideological feminists). They may not call themselves feminists, but they are certainly happy about many of the things that feminism has provided for women, including themselves. The few exceptions to this are the very small number of truly countercultural women — they exist, but they are exceptionally uncommon. Virtually all mainstream women are de facto feminists in that they use the tools and rights that feminism has provided to women to their full effect, regardless of whether they like the label or not. These people have free will — they could reject these tools and rights, but they generally don’t. For this reason they do not have my sympathy.

  173. Lost Patrol says:

    @feeriker

    re: Melanie Phillip’s views –

    civilize aggressive male characteristics

    This shopworn notion won’t stop making the rounds, even though it’s crystal clear that most “aggressive male characteristics” are rapidly disappearing in the western world. All of the “spill-over benefits” of feminism enjoyed by every western woman that you described up thread is directly related to the increasing absence of those characteristics. At this point millions of western men are so civilized they are in danger of losing male characteristics altogether, never mind the aggressive ones.

  174. Luke says:

    Lost Patrol, what you’re seeing is described rather astutely in r/K Theory as a shift towards “r”-oriented behavior. From
    http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/the-theory/rk-selection-theory/

    Excerpts:

    “In r-selection, those individuals who waste time fighting for food will be out-reproduced by pacifists, who simply focus upon eating, and reproducing. Fighting also entails risks of injury or death – risks which are pointless given the free availability of resources everywhere. Hence this environment will favor a tendency towards conflict avoidance, and tend to cull the aggressive and competitive. It will also evolve tendencies towards mating as early as possible, as often as possible, with as many mates as possible, while investing as little effort as possible rearing offspring.”

    ” r-type organisms will not exhibit loyalty to fellow members of their species, or a drive to sacrifice on their behalf. Indeed, the very notion of in-group will be foreign, and the concept of personal sacrifice for other in-group members will be wholly alien.”

    “Many have noted an increasingly masculine quality to the women in our culture, as well as a corresponding effeminate nature to our men. Rush Limbaugh will often refer to them as the Feminazis, and the Castrati.”

    “Liberals are supportive of promiscuity, [and] supportive of efforts to expose children to ever earlier sexual education…”

    “…when a population becomes increasingly r-selected, the nature of the sexual dimorphism and these sex-specific rearing behaviors will change. As you see a more r-strategy emerge, females of the species will need to become increasingly aggressive and masculine, since due to paternal abandonment, they must provision and protect their offspring alone. Since r-selected males are solely concerned with mating (before abandoning their mate), and fleeing from conflict, they become more diminutive, and more cowardly. The end result is the r-strategy has, inherent within it, a model of aggressive, manly females who raise children alone, and diminutive, effete males who are solely concerned with superficial, mate-attracting flash, and conflict avoidance.

    Even more interestingly …there is evidence indicating that this phenomenon, accidentally over-expressed, may be responsible for producing males who are so effeminate that they are actually homosexual, and females who are so manly, they cross the boundary into lesbianism.”

    “It is also interesting to note, even today, as r-types gain hold in a civilization, they seek to provide the unproductive and uncompetitive with the free resource availability of the r-selected environment. As in nature, as this goes on, the r-type cohort grows in the population, until the entire financial ecosystem collapses, the government dissolves, and the civilization becomes ruthlessly competitive. As in nature, free resource availability cannot go on forever.”

  175. Lost Patrol says:

    @Luke

    Very interesting. So basically this –

  176. Pingback: Women Won’t See | Spawny's Space

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