Man up and honor your father.

This is the fourth post in a series on the program Honor Your Father Today.  If you want to read the first three posts, you can do so here:

  1. A radical Father’s Day Proposal.
  2. Don’t refer to God as the Father, call him a “Best Friend”.
  3. Ideas on how to honor your father on social media for Father’s Day.

Honoring fathers means honoring men, and the idea of honoring men, even fathers on Father’s Day, is as uncomfortable to conservative Christians as the idea of french kissing your sister.

What conservative Christians would far rather do than honor men is do what they always do;  blame men for the sins of women and issue men an endless series of challenges to man up.  This is cowardly and easy, but feels heroic.  Yet this is a campaign to encourage people to honor their fathers on Father’s Day, and the campaign is in response to Scripture.  Given the choice of doing what is cowardly, easy, and feels good or doing what God has commanded, what did the men of Honor Your Father Today choose?  Did they man up?  For the most part they did not.  For the most part, they chose the easy, feel good, cowardly way out.  If you look at the page they use to turn their proposal into concrete action, you will see that aside from talking about how terrible fathers are and promoting the program in general, nearly all of the focus is on challenging men to man up.  Along with many similar resources, they suggest honoring fathers by sending them to Dennis Rainey/FamilyLife’s Stepping Up®, and a program called Father School:

Father School was originally established by Duranno in October, 1995, in Seoul, South Korea, in response to the growing national epidemic of abusive, ineffective and absentee fathers.

They also suggest honoring the fathers in the congregation by having them pledge to be better fathers via the Resolution Ceremony from the movie Courageous:

Set a date for this event at your church. Promote it, prepare for it by leading a study of The Resolution for Men and then make it happen!

Most people give their father a Hallmark™ card on Father’s Day;  conservative Christians celebrate Father’s Day by telling their dad to promise to be a better dad.

Maybe next year Dad!

But the most creative solution to this dilemma comes in the Three Point Challenge for Churches.  In the three point challenge they take the general command to all believers to honor their fathers and change the focus to telling fathers to step up, and…  honor their fathers!   The pastor’s guide opens with:

Pastor,

This is a request for you to prayerfully consider participating in the Honor Your Father 3-Point Church Challenge. Below is an overview of the initiative. Attached is a specific challenge to be issued to each man as well as an outline to reference for a Father’s Day sermon.

Honor Your Father is a nationwide campaign coordinated by the Fatherhood CoMission, a coalition of fathering initiatives across the country working to raise the bar for dads to be engaged in family. Visit http://www.honoryourfathertoday.com to learn more about the campaign and view video testimonies from Tony Dungy, Kirk Cameron, Darryl Strawberry and others.

Below is the 3-Point Church Challenge aligned with the Honor Your Father campaign. Please prayerfully consider issuing a call (specifics attached) for each man in the church to:

Points one and two of the three point challenge to the fathers are:

  1. Meet with their father.
  2. Write their father a letter.

Point three of the three point Father’s Day challenge to fathers doesn’t even involve the fathers honoring their fathers.  It is yet another pledge by the fathers to become better fathers:

Commit to grow as a father – be a study of the Father and of fathering. Seek out resources and training opportunities that will encourage & equip you as a father. Commit to completing one study for dads across the summer. One easy and accessible option is the Dads Becoming Heroes study that can be completed on your own or in a small group.
This study can be downloaded as a .pdf file from http://www.faithfulfathering.org/educate.
Take the initiative to Honor Your Father through intentional study to become the father God calls you to be, the father the next generation needs.

  • Take a picture of you doing the study on your own, with a buddy or in a group;
  • Record a short video testimony of how the study impacted you; and
  • Record a short video with testimony from your family on how the study influenced your fathering from their perspective.

Accept this challenge to Honor Your Father and begin a journey that will be challenging and affirming, convicting and encouraging. In the process, you will be equipped and strengthened to become the father you are called to be, the father the next generation needs.
Prayers are with you on the journey,

While the letter to the Pastor says the program is for all men in the church, the accompanying sermon outline says the program is for the fathers in the congregation:

As you know, a number of weeks ago we initiated an Honor Your Father challenge to dads.  The emotions around the topic of our dads run the spectra from elation, “I really appreciate being issued this challenge while my dad is alive”, to frustration, “Are you kidding me? My dad was abusive. I have not spoken to him in years and I don’t see any reason to honor him!” Actually there is a very important reason to honor our father and mother, it is the fifth commandment. Exodus 20:12 does not say, “If” your father and mother are honorable then honor them…

Either way this is brilliant, albeit incredibly cynical.  It carefully minimizes the number of men in the congregation who are at risk of being honored on Father’s Day (yuk!), tells the men of the congregation to man up, and doesn’t ask anything of the women in the congregation.  At the same time, it reinforces the same message given by the Father’s Day sermons and the Father’s Day social media post suggestions;  fathers don’t deserve to be honored.

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This entry was posted in Complementarian, Courageous, Disrespecting Respectability, FamilyLife, Father's Day, Fatherhood, Honor Your Father Today, Miserliness, Stepping Up®, Traditional Conservatives. Bookmark the permalink.

56 Responses to Man up and honor your father.

  1. okrahead says:

    Hebrews 12 tells us our Father in Heaven scourges every son he receives. It also tells us our earthly fathers scourged us and we honor them; if we are without scourging we are bastards. Perhaps this group of bastards needs a serious scourging so that they may learn to honor the Father in Heaven and not speak evil of those worthy of honor. They do however, have their own father, the father of lies, and it is clear that they honor him.

  2. Pingback: Man up and honor your father. | @the_arv

  3. Major Styles says:

    Good Lord…do they hand out strap-ons to the men exit the Sunday service?

  4. Hose_B says:

    2 Cor 4:4
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    I am curious as to what the Fathers Day message will be at the church I attend and if I’ll be able to sit through it.

  5. Mandy says:

    Father’s Day is a greeting card holiday that has no scriptural basis. Honoring your father is a commandment for everyday and involves obeying him in the Lord. No mushy feelings.

    The men listening to these lectures are involved fathers. The uninvolved or bad father’s simply don’t care.

  6. okrahead says:

    Dalrock, these men are spoken of in 2 Peter 2. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignities (v 10), they beguile unstable souls (v 14), they are dogs returned to their own vomit. We are commanded to give honor to whom honor is due. In addition, under the Law it was commanded that if anyone even cursed his father or mother he was to be put to death. Not only do these men curse fathers, they teach others to do likewise under the pretense of preaching Christ, which only multiplies their sin.

  7. RecoveringBeta says:

    These men would likely proscribe the reverse for wives. “Submit to your husbands…UNLESS.” But of course you’ve covered that topic.

  8. Boxer says:

    Dalrock, my brother, you are on fire.

    Keep it up! These Father’s Day articles are gold!

  9. Damn Crackers says:

    Maybe it was better when we blamed all this dysfunction on alcohol.

  10. horatius67 says:

    Typically, Dalrock is right on target. What is both discouraging and disturbing is that outside of a handful of online forums, this message is met with near universal scorn and outright hostility. I’m beginning to think discussion and dialogue is a waste of time.

  11. Anonymous says:

    I told my pastor yesterday that with Father’s Day coming up, that they should hold the contempt and if they treated men with half the respect they show military and police, they would be much more effective. He prides himself in his sermons and how they are on the radio so he told me that my comments made him want to puke. Hurt feelings and all, I hope he considers my message.

  12. Boxer says:

    Dear Horatius 67:

    Typically, Dalrock is right on target. What is both discouraging and disturbing is that outside of a handful of online forums, this message is met with near universal scorn and outright hostility. I’m beginning to think discussion and dialogue is a waste of time.

    That’s exactly right, and yours is a critical realization that I wish more people could intuit on their own.

    Trying to change things by protesting, or otherwise by “working within the system” will always fail. Any dialogue that you enter with these subversive feminists serves to give them the attention and energy they need to propagate their destructive beliefs.

    The proper strategy is what Herbert Marcuse called the great refusal. It entails pulling out of their organizations and churches. Don’t give them any time. Don’t give them any money. Don’t argue with them or protest them. They hate you with an intense, insatiable hatred, and they will always hate you. You’ll never change or improve them.

    These feminist churches are already collapsing due to their own internal contradictions. If men really want to fight against them, the proper thing to do is to build sane and decent institutions, that will be naturally replace them as the insane and indecent ones fail of their own accord.

    In the mean time, you and others could start your own blogs, constructing critical theories of those institutions. You could also start a twitter or facebook account, and promote this blog. The more people who see the truth, the better we are.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  13. feministhater says:

    Accept this challenge to Honor Your Father and begin a journey that will be challenging and affirming, convicting and encouraging. In the process, you will be equipped and strengthened to become the father you are called to be, the father the next generation needs.

    In and of itself, this is not a bad nor evil idea. It’s actually quite good if handed to sons and daughters and not fathers themselves. It teaches sons to be fathers, being taught by their father rather than society, and it teaches daughters how to honour their father and future husband as the head of the family.

  14. Wanting Your Thoughts says:

    Dalrock,

    Forgive me for hijacking your thread.

    I’m struggling with a decision I have to make.

    My wife’s cousin is divorcing her husband. The cousin is not a Christian.

    My wife has offered her to live with us for a time. My wife is a pretty good Christian. We all have our faults, and she is no different, but she does recognize her obligation to submit. When I tell her to do something, she literally says, “Yes sir,” without any hint of irony. Because she is a good Christian, she takes the obligation of charity pretty seriously. She has, with my blessing, given a place to stay to down-on-their-luck people several times. So she didn’t think this would be any different.

    The husband does sound like a jerk. I won’t go into the details but he is practically pushing her out the door. I know I’m hearing one side of the story, but if what she says is true, the guy is a real piece of work.

    So my wife mentioned that her cousin is probably going to be staying with us for a while. Knowing the situation between my wife’s cousin and her husband, I asked her about it. We had a long discussion about it. I told her that I don’t want to enable sin. I pointed out that god hates divorce. My wife was surprised by my response. I related it to another stray she took in who used his free place to stay as a way to keep smoking dope and how we had to end the situation. She strongly disagreed with the comparison.

    My wife pointed out that (1) the lady isn’t a Christian, and denying her a place to live would make Christians look bad, so we wouldn’t be “adorning the gospel,” (2) trying to save her should be our goal before we teach her about Christian duties—and my wife has made significant progress to this point, (3) the husband has for all practical purposes ended the relationship, and (4) she is going to divorce her husband regardless of what we do, so we’re not enabling sin.

    She’s right on all those points. And I just about agreed to let the cousin come last evening based on that reasoning. But I didn’t want to make a snap decision that I would later regret.

    My wife asked me to make my decision quickly because, if the answer is “no,” she wants to tell her cousin as soon a possible. I told her I would make the decision today.

    Thoughts?

  15. Scott says:

    Boxer-

    Yes. Although I do believe there is still hope for the Orthodox church. I have seen priests buckle in conversation (when there are women around) to the “it takes two” and “remember Christ was willing to sacrifice his life for the church (his wife)” canard. But I have also seen the very same priest tell the truth in different contexts.

    But absolutely. None of the institutions–from the Boy Scouts to the military are going to repent and reform. They are not there to help develop the kind of men we write about here. Not at all, so do not bother with them.

  16. Fifty Seven says:

    Darryl Strawberry? The cokehead base stealer? I thought he was dead.

  17. Trad-con Christianity loves to conflate men’s sexual strategy with the reason for absentee or ‘bad’ Dads. The Feminine Imperative in church finds this sex shaming the easiest thumbscrew for why men will always be in need of feminine correction – which now is ‘Godly’ correction. To these pastors, even Christian men are endemically liable to “fuck ’em and forget ’em”. Every man’s sexual strategy is pump & dump, even for the ‘good’ Christian men raised on the Beta farm that is the contemporary church.

    It is time to recognize that the church is openly hostile to anything conventionally masculine. There is nothing for men in church. If you read Hypergamy Doesn’t Care and replace Hypergamy with “the church” you’ll get a much better perspective of the modern church:

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/05/16/hypergamy-doesnt-care/

  18. JoeS says:

    In my experience men, as they get older, naturally separate themselves into two categories. The men who have a bit of character tend to look for opportunities to mentor younger men. Men who lack character look for opportunities to beat them up. Since Christian leadership consists primarily of men who lack character you get this. No big surprise to me. I have a couple of little kids and I’ve considered trying to start going back to church but I think there’s a very good chance it’d do more harm than good. I’d probably end up being adversarial with leadership and get kicked out or they’d end up causing me family problems, etc.

  19. Ironthumb says:

    Another fine article Dal! Good to see you again (formerly Wizardcorpse) I’ve been out for a while hahaha – Update I have 3 daughters now.. and its high time that I realize how fathers must be honored

  20. Fred Flange, GBFC (Great Books for Cucks) says:

    This Churchian whip-sawing on Dads – being little boys who need a good spanking vs. deadbeat playboys with a sprog in every port – coincides with the rise of a similarly schizoid cultural theme: the useless unnecessary Dad, but also at the same time a cry for where are the good dutiful Dads? If they’re unnecessary who cares if they’re good or dutiful?

    This duality reached its apex in the early 1990’s but seems to be coming back, maybe as a subset of Leaning In. Most obviously in those meme-cards saying “I get a father’s day toast because I’m a single mom doing what would be his job if he existed.” Which I know shouldn’t be dwelt upon. This is after all a fake greeting card holiday just as mother’s day is.

    My attitude towards my sproglette about this is: the best father’s day gift is you keep being a good kid who listens, encounters, adapts and overcomes. Keep that up and I don’t need any dopey card (but if you’re going to make a big waffle breakfast I won’t protest).

    Some stuff in that “faithful fathering” PDF makes my eyes cross. One that stuck out was how you apology for your mistakes. The book would have you cry, moan, prostrate yourself and show contrition like a Tsar before the Pope’s gate. Do tell?! What I would do was easy: “ok, I was unfair to you there/made a mistake where I thought you’d messed up when you didn’t. You are owed an apology.” That’s it. Subject closed. No feelz-fests or wailing Wonderwalls. Say goodnight to the Bad Guy.

  21. “The emotions around the topic of our dads run the spectra”

    Wow, that’s some spectrum, going from “dads suck and need to be fixed” to “dads suck and are irredeemable.” Really covers a lot.

  22. anonymous_ng says:

    @Scott “Yes. Although I do believe there is still hope for the Orthodox church.”

    I’ve thought about this a lot. The trouble is, I think, that the priests grow up in the same progressive, liberal society as the rest of us.

    The Amish aside, what other groups are allowed to self-segregate?

    To what extent can you live in the greater society without absorbing the ideals of the greater society?

  23. Pingback: Man up and honor your father. | Reaction Times

  24. Frank K says:

    “coincides with the rise of a similarly schizoid cultural theme: the useless unnecessary Dad, but also at the same time a cry for where are the good dutiful Dads? If they’re unnecessary who cares if they’re good or dutiful?”

    Indeed. This is so prevalent that even uber liberal Bill Maher once commented about how dads are universally portrayed in TV and movies as clueless idiots who would be utterly lost without their oh so awesome wives, who solve all the problems, including the ones created by dumbbell dad.

    But yeah, if dads and husbands are redundant, who are there so many articles bemoaning the relative scarcity of “good ones”?

    If my Pastor tears down dads this Sunday, I will be sure to read him the riot act.

  25. Frank K says:

    “None of the institutions–from the Boy Scouts to the military are going to repent and reform.”

    BSA is a dead man walking. It has sold out so much that the Mormons are getting ready to ditch it (and replace it with their own organization) and I know that many Catholics are mulling that choice as well. Without Mormon and Catholic troop and pack sponsorship BSA is finished.

    On a related note, Catholic dioceses around the country are officially severing ties with the Girl Scouts, because of what the Girl Scouts now embrace and stand for. I suspect that BSA withdrawal isn’t far behind.

  26. Darwinian Arminian says:

    They also suggest honoring the fathers in the congregation by having them pledge to be better fathers via the Resolution Ceremony from the movie Courageous: “Set a date for this event at your church. Promote it, prepare for it by leading a study of The Resolution for Men and then make it happen.” Most people give their father a Hallmark™ card on Father’s Day; conservative Christians celebrate Father’s Day by telling their dad to promise to be a better dad.

    Now Dalrock, that’s just being unfair. The Kendrick brothers don’t sell Father’s Day cards, they sell premium framed Resolution pledges and retail copies of The Resolution for Men! Encouraging people to buy cards complimenting fathers would undercut their business model by diverting customers to a product that they don’t sell and can’t produce, and an act like that would be a mortal offense to the god they truly serve: Mammon.

  27. Is it possible we’ll see fathers walking out? Publicly rejecting this nonsense and withholding their tithes?

  28. Boxer says:

    Dear Frank K.:

    Indeed. This is so prevalent that even uber liberal Bill Maher once commented about how dads are universally portrayed in TV and movies as clueless idiots who would be utterly lost without their oh so awesome wives, who solve all the problems, including the ones created by dumbbell dad.

    Bill Maher has dropped far more realtalk than the conformist cowards Alex Jones and Michael Moore — both of whom got run through the divorce court meatgrinder, but do not make a peep in support of countless other men who face similar things.

    Funny how such supposed populist heroes don’t dare to “fight the power” in ways that would actually matter, isn’t it? Only grassroots places like Dalrock contain the truly subversive content.

    Boxer

  29. AnonS says:

    Where is Mommy school that teaches women not to abuse their kids or have children without a father in the house.

  30. horatius67 says:

    There remains within the Catholic Church a strong core, a remnant that retains an authentic masculine identity. It can be found mainly in the Latin mass parishes. We still have the encyclicals of Popes St.Leo xiii and Pius xi to use as a firebase

  31. Lost Patrol says:

    Either way this is brilliant, albeit incredibly cynical. It carefully minimizes the number of men in the congregation who are at risk of being honored on Father’s Day (yuk!), tells the men of the congregation to man up, and doesn’t ask anything of the women in the congregation.

    Do these guys (I reserve the term men for men that are not like these guys) know this is what they are doing? Are they brilliant and cynical in hitting the marks from the above quote, or merely classic beta schlubs that came up through the system and have no idea what they’re doing? Simply following the patterns they learned by rote? I really can’t tell.

    It’s easier now that I’m on the lookout for false fronts disguising a feminine primary agenda, but I had to learn how to do that at places like Dalrock. Are these slightly effeminate clergymen out flanking the churchgoing men with brilliant schemes, or simply the blind leading the blind?

  32. Frank K says:

    “The Amish aside, what other groups are allowed to self-segregate?”

    The Mormons tend to self segregate, though they are more integrated than the Amish. But from the few Mormons I know, their church dominates their life. If their sons are in Boy Scouts, they are in Mormon troops. Out where I live, Charter Schools are basically Mormon Parochial Schools as they are chock full of them, though they don’t teach religious ed there as that would make the Charter Schools lose the government funding. It is interesting how little as a “gentile” you will socialize with them (my only real contact was through my sons soccer team). Otherwise they are rather invisible and keep to themselves. One thing I noticed is the lack of bumper sticker paraphernalia identifying them as Mormons, whereas you see plenty of stickers identifying affiliation with the local Catholic Parish as well as some of the larger Protestant churches in town.

  33. The Question says:

    @Dalrock

    How much of this do you think is the result of women who grew up in bad, non-Christian households getting older, going to church, and bringing all of their daddy-baggage with them, and then church leaders assuming that this stuff is all going on in the church, too?

    Ultimately, this propaganda isn’t for the fathers, because they aren’t in the church; it’s for the women in the church, who all seem to have profound daddy issues. It’s as though the church is trying to say “there, there, we hear you, we’re listening, here’s something you can do that shows we care about you.”

    As Rollo might say, it’s a very subtle form of AMOGing, but it’s also something else; a way in which the church replaces the father and husband the same way the state attempts to do so. A women doesn’t find protection, refuge, and comfort in the men in their life, but in an institution.

  34. Dalrock says:

    @Wanting Your Thoughts

    The husband does sound like a jerk. I won’t go into the details but he is practically pushing her out the door. I know I’m hearing one side of the story, but if what she says is true, the guy is a real piece of work.

    My immediate advice would be if at all possible, to speak with this man directly before you bring his wife into your home. Perhaps the story is true, but you can get him to repent and allow her to stay. Perhaps the story isn’t true at all, or is leaving out important pieces. At the very least, you will be sending a powerful message that as a Christian you take marriage extremely seriously.

    My other advice would be to consider the strife a divorcing woman can bring into your own marriage. Women are very impressionable, and it has been proven that divorce spreads like contagion. At the very least it is something to be aware of.

  35. Frank K says:

    @Wanting Your Thoughts

    It also occurs to me that you “cousin-in-law” could potentially become a permanent fixture in your home, and as Dalrock already mentioned, she might start putting the divorce bug in your wife’s ear and if she’s around for a long time that bug could really grow big.

  36. feministhater says:

    My wife pointed out that (1) the lady isn’t a Christian, and denying her a place to live would make Christians look bad, so we wouldn’t be “adorning the gospel,” (2) trying to save her should be our goal before we teach her about Christian duties—and my wife has made significant progress to this point, (3) the husband has for all practical purposes ended the relationship, and (4) she is going to divorce her husband regardless of what we do, so we’re not enabling sin.

    If you want your own marriage to blow up, go ahead and listen to your wife. If not, tell your cousin to go and work it out with her husband. Divorce is contagious.

    First you tell us you don’t know the other side of the story and then come with this gem…

    the husband has for all practical purposes ended the relationship

    You are enabling sin by not calling her to to account. Furthermore, your wife is wrong on all four counts. 1) It’s not your duty to take in a woman who divorces her husband, you’re not adorning the gospel, you are bringing shame to it. 2) You cannot save her by allowing her to sin and it is your duty to teach Christianity and its duties before a person becomes a Christian. Are you so heartless as to bring someone to Christianity and only tell them of the sacrifice and duties after the commitment has been made? 3) You don’t know this, by your own account you’ve stated you don’t know the other side…. big red flag.. 4) It’s your duty to stop this from happening and to bring about a reunification of the married parties, if that is not possible, you’re not to further enable a party to bring about the divorce.

    Hope that helps. Lol!

  37. DrTorch says:

    “Is it possible we’ll see fathers walking out? Publicly rejecting this nonsense and withholding their tithes?”

    So many good comments in this thread, but to answer your question, yes. I’ve done it before, and I’d most certainly do it again.

    I don’t know what the pastor at the church we’re currently at will say on Sun. Mothers Day was certainly a farce. The pastor is ret Military, but also laughingly condemns himself b/c he tears up at every hint of an emotional story. Very strange.

  38. Wanting Your Thoughts says:

    Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. They are very helpful.

    My only pushback is @feministhaters–love the name by the way–thoughts on point 2. Normally I’d agree, but with conversion, I find it works the other way. The person accepts Christ, and then the holy spirit changes their heart.

  39. Oscar says:

    @Wanting Your Thoughts

  40. David says:

    Wanting Your Thoughts :

    Under no circumstances should you bring a divorcing woman into your home. Even if you think your own marriage is super-solid, why test that assumption if you don’t have to?

    Divorce is contagious among women.

    Plus, I don’t know what state you live in, but in some states, this woman is entitled to live rent free with you forever once she comes in, because that is a provision under VAWA designed to give women free housing if they make false accusations (CA, WA, VT, and other states have this law)…

  41. Caspar Reyes says:

    @Wanting Your Thoughts

    I had the same opportunity when my wife’s sister was divorcing and between housing situations. Woman is a loudmouth ne’er do well; there was a teenage son in the picture; this was her third marriage; divorced women are an attractive poison to each other. I’ve rarely put my foot down with the missus, but I let her get five words into the question.

    Me: “No.”

    Mrs: “Even if she’d be out on the street?”

    Me: “No.”

    Mrs: “OK.”

    Never heard another word. I think she was relieved. My advice? It’s your house, man. You can’t defend the members of your house if you invite your enemies in.

  42. thedeti says:

    Slightly off topic. Re Saeed Abedini.

    Can’t paste a link to it. It’s http://www.christianpost.com/news/persecuted-pastor-saeed-abedini-claims-ex-wife-american-pastors-tried-to-take-over-his-ministry-187712

    Hope that’s it.

    Anyway, TLDR: Saeed and Franklin Graham have parted ways. Graham and Samaritan’s Purse wants nothing more to do with Saeed or Naghmeh. Saeed’s divorce and the events leading up to it read like typical Duluth model/marriage to manipulative woman/divorce in which man loses house, money and kids.

    Saeed explains under oath his guilty plea for domestic violence. Says he got into an argument with Naghmeh in 2005 and she was out of control throwing things at him. She says no didn’t happen that way, all I did was throw a shirt at him. Nothing came of that.

    Later he found out his senior pastors, Naghmeh and others were trying to take over his churches and pass them off as that of the senior pastors, including one Bob Caldwell, who later resigned in disgrace after he confessed to adultery. He didn’t want to get into another argument with Naghmeh that got physical like the last time, so he locked himself in his office. She said “come out now or I’m calling the cops”. He said “do what you want”. She said “if I call the cops i’ll tell them you’re beating me.” She did, and police arrested him. Naghmeh later said she’d tell the lawyer and the prosecutor she had made it up.

    Saeed is speaking out about his divorce. He lost his house. He has lost a lot of money. He doesn’t see his kids. He’s left Boise where he was and where Naghmeh still is with the kids. He rarely gets to see his kids. He also calls out many Christian ministers, who he says have now abandoned him because of Naghmeh’s allegations and because he is no longer a cause celebre and no longer of any use to them.

    It all sounds just too familiar.

  43. feministhater says:

    It all sounds just too familiar.

    And totally utterly predictable. Go read the Dalrock article(s) on him and his nasty ex from when he was still in Iran and see how everyone here called in to a ‘T’. I said that his life here would be worse than any prison in Iran and that the worst punishment the Iranians could bestow upon him would be to release him…

    Oh, the irony…

  44. feministhater says:

    When I say ‘here’ I mean America not where I am. Just to avoid confusion. I should have said America..

  45. BillyS says:

    Wanting,

    My wife said “yes sir” all the time, until she filed for divorce (after almost 30 years of marriage). Attitudes can be deeper than may seem obvious.

    I would agree not to let a divorcee or future divorcee into the house, you don’t need that. And your wife may be quite uncomfortable if she is at all attractive after the compassion wears off. Claiming “she will do it anyway” would also have applied to the pot smoker you noted, so that is not a good reason.

    My exwife might also have said many of the things you noted, even if they were not accurate. Don’t believe a sob story just because it sounds bad. Is your own marriage worth putting to the risk for this?

  46. Gunner Q says:

    Wanting Your Thoughts, I agree with what others here are advising. It’s one thing to want to help people, another thing to risk the integrity of your home. This woman has a LEGION of battered-wife shelters and similar services offered by both church and state to choose from. Might as well get a legit return for all that tax money you pay.

    The charitable Christian must have both a warm heart and a cold head. Don’t risk your home for non-family. Don’t feel obligated to go against your better judgment. You can’t help everybody so it’s okay to pick and choose.

  47. feeriker says:

    Good Lord…do they hand out strap-ons to the men exit the Sunday service?

    No, they hand those out to the women to use on tbe men.

  48. Boxer says:

    BillyS:

    I would agree not to let a divorcee or future divorcee into the house, you don’t need that. And your wife may be quite uncomfortable if she is at all attractive after the compassion wears off. Claiming “she will do it anyway” would also have applied to the pot smoker you noted, so that is not a good reason.

    That’s an excellent and wise point. The wife in this scenario might feel altruistic and satisfied for a day or two, but two women under the same roof inevitably leads to competition for the attentions of the man. It will just be bad and upsetting for everyone.

    If this brother is concerned about his relative, why not offer to get her a week in a cheap hotel? That seems like a nice compromise. Maybe on a couple of nights she could come over for dinner.

    Don’t risk the integrity of your house or your reputation to get that good-guy badge. It isn’t worth it.

  49. Emperor Constantine says:

    @Rollo said:
    “It is time to recognize that the church is openly hostile to anything conventionally masculine. There is nothing for men in church.”

    @ Boxer said:
    “These feminist churches are already collapsing due to their own internal contradictions. If men really want to fight against them, the proper thing to do is to build sane and decent institutions, that will be naturally replace them as the insane and indecent ones fail of their own accord.”

    @ horatio67 said:
    “There remains within the Catholic Church a strong core, a remnant that retains an authentic masculine identity.”

    I agree 100% with Rollo and Boxer with respect to today’s Protestant churches, they’re gone.

    Protestantism would need to refound itself, starting with a hidden Church made up strictly of small groups of Red Pill men, growing itself in isolation from the culture and modern Churchians. If that sounds hopeless remember that’s basically how Christianity was founded and spread. Eventually, over it’s first several hundred years of bloody persecution the early Church spread rapidly until Constantine, my namesake, made it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

    As a Roman Catholic, I need a Church for salvation because I need the eucharist administered by that Church. There’s no way around that. But I can participate minimally in a parish, attend weekly Sunday Mass for eucharist, and do my confessions and penance as needed, while doing almost nothing in the Church organization itself. Here again, small groups of Red Pill Catholic men can gather, learn from each other and share the original, patriarchal spirit and word of God that the Christian half of Team Red intensely desires. This may take decades or centuries, but we need to start now.

    Rollo may find this ironic, but as neutral/negative to religion as the Red Pill community tends to be, by rediscovering patriarchy and masculinity, they have allowed me to better understand my faith and the Red Pill. To me they are integrated. I did not really get the Old Testament before the Red Pill. What’s up with the endless genealogies? The proverbs warning men about women. The constant, relentless metaphor of the Israelites as adulterers (e.g., Hosea) whenever they stop worshiping God and instead worship Baal (a female fertility goddess, by the way). The absolute and utter hatred of divorce and adultery that permeates the whole Bible.

    Men leading and doing everything in the OT, with the women dutifully following, that’s so retro. The subtle Red/Blue Pill interaction Samson has with Delilah, where he passes all her shit tests at first, but then gets drunk and gives into a Oneitis with her. Her hyper-gamic reward for him is to betray him (to what she perceives as higher value males) so brutally that he gets his eyes gouged out and is put in the equivalent of Leavenworth breaking rocks, being laughed at. Holy shit, single guys, pay attention! Or how Ahab’s Oneitis for Jezebel (or Herod’s for Herodias) led to weakness and disaster, which is what happens when men follow rather than lead women. Holy shit, pay attention married guys!

    And Christ Red Pilling the woman at the well, Martha versus Mary (which one would you rather have as a wife, the ball-busting Martha or the sweet, submissive Mary, huge hint there), the adulteress, the woman who anointed him, and on and on. Mary barely says anything in the Bible, and when she does it’s all about submitting (“have it done unto me as You will”; “do whatever He says”). Did she complain to Joseph that things were going great in Bethlehem and if he tries to take her and the boy to Egypt she’ll divorce him, get custody, and force him to pay child support? I don’t think so.

  50. Emperor Constantine says:

    Or how Blue Pill Holofernes is taken out by Judith in the most brutal way possible: beheading. Judith is rightly the heroine of the story, but what an amazing lesson in the capacity of women to deceive and scheme. Truly breathtaking. Again, you blue pill dumb asses, pay attention! Imagine if that Holofernes could have posted on AskTRP, he and his Army might have survived to fight another day instead of being totally destroyed.

    Note what happens the moment Samson takes the Blue Pill and tells Delilah the secret of his strength: his eyes are gouged out, he can no longer see reality properly.

    Throughout the Bible the theme never changes: weak men, from Adam on, who give in to women separate themselves from God and disaster follows.

  51. Emperor Constantine says:

    @Wanting Your Thoughts

    God hates divorce and He REALLY, REALLY hates adultery. When your sister-in-law makes her move, chances are 90% or more she’ll have a boyfriend in a few weeks, and you will be enabling her adultery.

  52. Anon says:

    Wanting Your Thoughts :

    You cannot, under any circumstances, let this woman live with you, unless you want to risk divorce (or at least Threatpoint) soon.

    For the woman, can she not draw from a) her parents, b) her siblings to the extent that she has to come to your wife and you? Or is it only because you are local?

    Send her back to her parents or siblings. If they are out of town, help her coordinate with her court dates, but nothing more. Again, for all we know, the man she is divorcing is the one being mistreated..

  53. feeriker says:

    My other advice would be to consider the strife a divorcing woman can bring into your own marriage. Women are very impressionable, and it has been proven that divorce spreads like contagion.

    Plus 1000 to Dalrock’s advice. Letting this woman stay with you is BEGGING for trouble to jump into your marriage.

    thedeti says:
    June 14, 2017 at 2:39 pm

    Sickening.

    It almost literally makes me ill to dwell on the fact that these corrupt, conniving, fraudulent pieces of shit who have stabbed Saeed in the back are the face of Christianity to so much of the unbelieving world. And churchians wonder why they are the target of so much derision and hatred and why most of their churches are lifeless, empty tombs.

    I honestly sometimes wonder if Saeed has had second thoughts about his conversion to Christianity from Islam. Given what he has suffered at the hands of those who were supposed to be his Brothers in Christ, I truly could not say that I would bear him ill will if he walked away from it all.

    Shame and judgment upon all of those who have wounded Saeed and pandered to the World’s values in the process.

  54. BillyS says:

    Emp Constantine,

    And Christ Red Pilling the woman at the well, Martha versus Mary (which one would you rather have as a wife, the ball-busting Martha or the sweet, submissive Mary, huge hint there), the adulteress, the woman who anointed him, and on and on. Mary barely says anything in the Bible, and when she does it’s all about submitting (“have it done unto me as You will”; “do whatever He says”). Did she complain to Joseph that things were going great in Bethlehem and if he tries to take her and the boy to Egypt she’ll divorce him, get custody, and force him to pay child support? I don’t think so.

    I think you are confusing two Marys in your discussion, assuming you mean to contrast Martha and Mary, the sisters of Lazarus.

    We do know that Mary sat and listened to His teaching as well as later anointing Him with costly oil, but we don’t know much more about her. Martha’s attitude had a problem at that time, but she was still close with Jesus and I doubt she was always that way based on the ongoing friendship with Him.

    My exwife was more the Mary type, but that was because she wouldn’t want to work hard doing things, not because she was very submissive. We know Mary made a good choice those two times, but she remained a sinner in need of a Savior, so I would not be ready to marry her just based on that. I want a wife who is properly submissive, but who also works to accomplish things for the household.

    Note as well that Jesus chastised Martha for her worry, not for her actions.

    Jesus’ mother Mary was a completely different person and we know she too got demanding at the wedding at Cana and when she came with His siblings to demand he chill out a bit. (Jesus referred to the crowd listening at the time as His “mother and brothers” for a reason.) She didn’t dump on Joseph, but she needed a Savior as well.

    I understand that point may go against RCC doctrine (I don’t know for sure since I have not studied it lately), but it is what is Written in the Scriptures.

  55. Emperor Constantine says:

    @BillyS:

    Martha’s biggest problem wasn’t worry, it was telling God what to do: “Jesus, tell Mary to come help me!”

    “Jesus’s mother Mary was a completely different person and we know she too got demanding at the wedding at Cana and when she came with His siblings to demand he chill out a bit.”

    Nowhere in Scripture does it say the mother of God ever got demanding at Cana or that she demanded he chill out a bit. At Cana, she told him “they have no wine”; she did not say, “get them more wine.” Then, instead of telling God what to do, she says “Do whatever He tells you”. Quite a difference.

  56. Pingback: Father’s Day | Cogito, Credo, Petam

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