A radical Father’s Day proposal.

Several weeks ago I outlined the way modern conservative Christian leaders avoid confronting feminism by pretending that something mysterious has happened to men.  This is something that is easy to prove and yet is a surprisingly well kept secret.  Nearly all conservative Christians are in denial regarding this fact, as the whole exercise is one of denial to avoid something terrifying.  Non Christians  and even liberal Christians are generally not aware of this either, because the reality goes against the stereotype of conservative Christians as patriarchal throwbacks.

For this reason, most would be quite surprised to learn that Father’s Day is generally viewed very differently by conservative Christian culture than by secular culture.  Secular culture generally accepts Father’s Day for what it is, a day to honor fathers.  There is of course a recurring theme of a few single mothers arguing that like Mother’s Day, Father’s Day should be all about them, but this is greeted with a surprising degree of pushback from feminists.  For the most part, in the secular world Father’s Day is about honoring fathers.

Unfortunately it isn’t so simple for conservative Christians.  Instead of setting Father’s Day aside as a day to honor fathers, it has traditionally been used as a day to tear Christian fathers down in front of their families.  As Sunshine Thiry’s pastor explained (emphasis mine):

…Father’s Day is one of the worst days that dads can ever choose to go to church.  Because often it’s the only time churches feel like they’re going to have the ears of dads and so what they do is they plan to beat them up royally for all they’re not doing right.  Ever been to one of those Father’s Day services?  Oh man, I have…

Thiry’s pastor decided to try a different approach on Father’s Day, and try to encourage all of the terrible dads in the congregation to be better instead of beating them up:

We don’t do that anymore.  What we want this to be is an encouragement to you, we want this to lift you up…

What makes the conservative Christian aversion to honoring fathers so striking is that honoring fathers (and mothers) is one of the ten commandments.  If anything, conservative Christians should be the gold standard for honoring fathers.

This brings us to a relatively new movement among conservative Christians to do something simple but truly radical.  They propose that Christians honor fathers on Father’s Day:

Imagine the national and global impact if every family, organization, and church were sharing the same message this Father’s Day: s for children, young and old, to Honor Your Father.

Again, in secular culture such an initiative would seem pointless.  This is what Father’s Day is for, after all.  But in conservative Christian culture this is a break from tradition, and such an initiative is badly needed.  The group is called Honor Your Father Today.  They explain on their About page why they want to break with conservative Christian tradition on Father’s Day and instead use the day to honor fathers (emphasis mine):

Helping Dads from the “Bottom Up”

Traditionally, churches, organizations, and social or government groups try to tackle the problem of fatherhood “top down” by teaching, encouraging, and often begging fathers to step up to become better dads. But what if we approached it from the “bottom up” by encouraging children, both young and old, to honor their fathers in some small way? One of the strongest motivators for men are their children. If anything can move a dad, even one who’s disengaged, it’s their child reaching out and honoring him with a word, video, or a letter of thanks.

Note that even here the tone is one of how terrible Christian fathers are.  Honoring fathers, an act that is simple to everyone else, is an enigma to conservative Christians.  Honoring fathers can’t simply be about honoring fathers because God commands it, or even about a means to receive the blessing God promises for those who obey.  It has to be a means to a different end, honor begrudgingly offered to fathers in an effort to move them to be better.  As with Thiry’s pastor, this group founded on the simple idea of honoring fathers on Father’s Day ends up landing instead on encouraging fathers to be better.  If anything can encourage fathers to finally straighten up, surely this new movement will.

This isn’t a problem conservative Christians have regarding Mother’s Day.  Honoring mothers, even single mothers by choice, is natural and easy to conservative Christians.  It is honoring fathers that is deeply uncomfortable, especially honoring married Christian fathers.  Mitch Temple, Executive Director of the Fatherhood Comission, discusses the unique discomfort Pastors have with honoring fathers in the opening of his message to pastors about his radical idea of honoring fathers on Father’s Day (emphasis mine):

Hey Pastor this is Mitch Temple, Executive Director of the Fatherhood Comission.  As a pastor for over twenty years I used to get very nervous after Mother’s Day because, I always wonder now what, we’ve only got a few weeks, what are we going to do with Father’s Day?

Well, we want to try to help solve that problem for you.  The Fatherhood Comission along with about a hundred and fifty other organizations have come together to really encourage dads.  And one of the things that God lead us to was this idea of doing something around Father’s Day.

In the opening to a different promotional video for the program, Christian filmmaker Stephen Kendrick describes the ease conservative Christians have with honoring mothers, and how different it is when it comes to honoring fathers (emphasis mine):

There is a command in Scripture that comes with a promise.  It says if you honor your father and your mother God will give you a good life and a long life.  Well it’s easy for us to oftentimes to honor our moms, but too often we don’t honor our dads.

Kendrick opens yet another video with the same basic statement:

It’s easy for us to honor our moms, but too oftentimes people don’t honor their fathers.  And so this Father’s Day, and leading up to it, we want to encourage you to honor your father.

Again, the idea of honoring fathers on Father’s Day is so foreign to conservative Christians that the About page and all three of the promotional videos above open by acknowledging this fact!  Even though this is denied, the idea of honoring fathers is so counter-cultural that they can’t broach the topic of honoring fathers on Father’s Day without dealing with how strange, how foreign, this concept is.

I pray that they will be successful in their initiative to have Christians honor fathers on Father’s day, but as they repeatedly acknowledge what they are proposing is a truly radical idea.

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This entry was posted in Complementarian, Denial, Disrespecting Respectability, Father's Day, Fatherhood, Honor Your Father Today, Kendrick Brothers, Traditional Conservatives. Bookmark the permalink.

143 Responses to A radical Father’s Day proposal.

  1. Pingback: A radical Father’s Day proposal. | @the_arv

  2. Anon says:

    This is amazing, really. Cuckservatives are more anti-father than secular people..

    This is also why deep-red states often destroy fathers in divorce court to a greater extent that even in San Francisco…

  3. Scott says:

    And a quick reminder of what happens when I go fathers about receiving just one small moment of honor…

    https://americandadweb.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/what-they-dont-see/

  4. info says:

    Jesus never let anyone suck him into their frame. But cuckservatives let leftists especially feminists suck them into their frame.

    Assimilating all assumptions and ideas even whilst denying that they are. They may not be labelled as such but they certainly act as such.

    Buying into the false abuse narrative. Although as a result of real abuse:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/beware-of-broken-wolves

    Quack like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck as people say.

  5. Emperor Constantine says:

    When we were working on my father’s Catholic funeral, the priest provided some suggested readings but I insisted on Sirach, Chapter 3. My siblings agreed, so did the priest. The Protestant “reformers” missed a trick when they failed to include the traditional Jewish wisdom books in the Canon, as these books expand on Proverbs take on evil women, and glorious men. My father had many faults but his funeral was an absolutely majestic celebration of his life, with 100’s of people there, a profoundly moving homily by the priest, and it was the capstone to my mother’s brave, unreasonable, and yet glorious choice to stick with him through thick and thin, in total contrast to the disgusting hurricane of adultery we now endure. Many people came up to me afterwards and said it was the most beautiful and moving funeral ceremony they had ever been to.

    Sirach, Chapter 3:
    RESPONSIBILITIES TO PARENTS*
    Children, listen to me, your father;
    act accordingly, that you may be safe.
    For the Lord sets a father in honor over his children
    and confirms a mother’s authority over her sons.
    Those who honor their father atone for sins;
    they store up riches who respect their mother.
    Those who honor their father will have joy in their own children,
    and when they pray they are heard.
    Those who respect their father will live a long life;
    those who obey the Lord honor their mother.
    Those who fear the Lord honor their father,
    and serve their parents as masters.
    In word and deed honor your father,
    that all blessings may come to you.
    A father’s blessing gives a person firm roots,
    but a mother’s curse uproots the growing plant.
    Do not glory in your father’s disgrace,
    for that is no glory to you!
    A father’s glory is glory also for oneself;
    they multiply sin who demean their mother.
    My son, be steadfast in honoring your father;
    do not grieve him as long as he lives.
    Even if his mind fails, be considerate of him;
    do not revile him because you are in your prime.
    Kindness to a father will not be forgotten;
    it will serve as a sin offering—it will take lasting root.
    In time of trouble it will be recalled to your advantage,
    like warmth upon frost it will melt away your sins.
    Those who neglect their father are like blasphemers;
    those who provoke their mother are accursed by their Creator.

  6. Emperor Constantine says:

    I wish VR worked so I could haul back and punch these pussies in the face, and they could really feel it. I hope and pray a refining fire blows these disgusting heretics away to the ash heap of history. Christianity is patriarchy. Period. The End. What they are promoting is gynocracy, matriarchy just as Satan has asked them to do, and exactly as Adam did, they have fallen in line.

  7. horatius67 says:

    To paraphrase Frederick Douglass, “What shall we do with the fathers? I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us.”

  8. feeriker says:

    What makes the conservative Christian aversion to honoring fathers so striking is that honoring fathers (and mothers) is one of the ten commandments. If anything, conservative Christians should be the gold standard for honoring fathers.

    When we really stop to think about what we see from the typical pew warmer, whether on Sunday morning, obese posterior pressure testing the pew, or during the other six and three quarter days of the week out in the World where they are most comfortable, keeping God’s commandments isn’t a very high priority in their lives. They don’t steal or kill only because there are very real and painful temporal consequences for doing so. The other commandments? If they can get away with ignoring or violating them without facing temporal sanction, they will do so. “Honoring [one’s] mother and father,” especially one’s father, is a commandment that is both one of the easiest to ignore AND one with ZE-RO temporal consequences for violating.

    Remember: as lovers of the World Ueber Alles, temporal consequences are the only ones that churchians care about.

  9. feeriker says:

    …to tackle the problem of fatherhood…

    Well, gosh, I guess THAT’S why none of the younger dudes are jumping on the fatherhood bandwagon. Who the heck wants to be part of a PROBLEM?

    Unbefarkinglievable. Do these assclowns ever engage their atrophied little brainlets and THINK about what they’re saying/writing before they do it?

  10. info says:

    @Emperor Constantine

    This is why:
    http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.php

  11. Emperor Constantine says:

    @info said:
    “This is why:
    http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.php

    Interesting, but… the RCC had decided on the Canon 1000+ years before, and for 1000 years after all Christians accepted that. The whole framework for a Church even deciding on a set of accepted books was RCC-driven, everything from the Reformation onward was weakly derivative of that.

    Look no further than Dalrock’s post. As pathetic and unacceptable as the RCC response is to the FI, the seeds of a regeneration are there, because in the RCC there is a formal way to hang onto doctrine and the deposit of faith that most importantly is driven by the Holy Spirit, even if the priests and bishops of today are cowards. The whole Fireproof/Kendrick thing, these people are completely contemptible, total dorks and losers dependent on bottom-up support of adulterous bitches in their “Church”. They are doomed. Quite possibly the RCC is doomed, but I would not count it out just yet. Do your best as an individual, store up the oil in your lamp, and get out the popcorn and let’s see what happens.

  12. Emperor Constantine says:

    OT but…
    You know things are bad when the bad girls stick up for the boyz:

    http://www.boredpanda.com/girls-stop-abuse-boyfriends/

  13. Pingback: A radical Father’s Day proposal. | Reaction Times

  14. Mineter says:

    I was actually very pleasantly surprised at the last Mass on Father’s Day I attended (this is not to say my parish priest ever bashes fathers or men). He pointed out that a man sacrifices his life to raise a family. Not figuratively or allegorically, but literally. A father will give almost all of his time and energy for the (not only) financial support and betterment of his wife and children.
    Any priest or pastor berating the men in his parish is stupid – they ARE the ones who have “manned up” already.

  15. Splashman says:

    What makes the conservative Christian aversion to honoring fathers so striking is that honoring fathers (and mothers) is one of the ten commandments.

    Nice cuisinart you got there, Dalrock.

    We can all agree that on Father’s Day, it makes sense to honor fathers (not trash them, ridicule them, etc.). But the fifth commandment is not “Honor all fathers and mothers” or “Honor fathers from the pulpit”; it reads “Honor your father and mother…”. Since the subject of your post regards honoring fathers in general, you are incorrect to claim (repeatedly) that the commandment supports your position.

    Next time leave that reference out. Your point is still rock-solid and inarguable without it.

  16. Just Some Guy says:

    Sometimes all a guy really wants is to hear how much he didn’t suck today.

  17. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    The Fifth Commandment actually reads “Honour thy father and thy mother.” So it stands to reason that clergy should make their Father’s Day sermons have the same tone as the ones on Mother’s Day since the wording is the same for both: “honor.”

    And while this doesn’t mean preachers and pastors need to honor THEIR fathers, as Splashman wrote, it should mean they tell the congregants to honor their own — and not use the day as a reason to dishonor fathers or men in general. On top of that’s I’ll add that it used to be the job of clergy to see through media propaganda and lead people back to scripture. Nowadays it seems like they’re using scripture to push the propaganda. Maybe they watch too much TV and actually believe all those “doofus dad” commercials are based on reality.

  18. Thundergot says:

    I give zero chance of a lasting impression on that campaign. And even that campaign gets into the “bottom-up” preaching mode of how fathers should behave better.
    The reality is that this won’t change. The churches are doomed to be feminist nuclear waste zones – in time the churchgoers will constantly decrease or be ripped asunder by the nature of unfettered “empowered” women until mainstream Christianity is viewed as Cuckistan central.

    Father’s day should be about unlimited unbridled unmitigated acknowledgement about the fathers who die in wars, who die doing dangerous jobs, who work hard hours to provide for their families, fathers who give their lives saving people as police officers, firemen, it should be about fathers who risk their lives daily to save even strangers from ice, water, fire and various other accidents. Father’s day should also encompass all the 99% male inventors who created most technology and science in this world (almost all geniuses in the world are male and continue to be male). Father’s day should point out that 99% of upkeep and building of our civilization is staffed by men – the builders, the construction workers, the plumbers, the electricians, the truckers, the miners, waste disposal workers, the scores and scores of manual workers who keep the country running smoothly.

    In addition the position of the father as head of the family should be strengthened, it should be stated that he should be proud of the fact of being a father and head of the household, of caring for his wife and children.

    If you don’t do that and dish out Blue Pill bullshit of trying to “change fathers for the better” you are just selling feminist crap in Christian covering – underneath it all it is just stinking crap.

  19. Zach says:

    I used Sirach 3 as the text at my father’s funeral even though it was a Protestant service.

  20. feministhater says:

    And yet fathers do so much for everyone else. From keeping the peace, to keeping the lights on, to keeping the water and sanitation systems going, to mining the materials and oil needed to keep society ticking along, to providing the muscle and intelligence to make inventions that keep us warm, comfortable and able to live a life of relative ease. What exactly is it that fathers do not do in this world? They raise their kids to the best of their ability with a system that tries to remove them from their position of authority.

    Thank you Fathers, thank you for your time, efforts and sacrifices for your families and those around you. It is not forgotten. These idiots just cannot see what is right in front of their faces and show a lack of respect for all that is made possible through the sacrifices of fathers and men in general.

    Honouring your father for shaping you into the man or woman you are should be a good thing but they have twisted it into something shameful.

    There will be no obligatory, “but what about…” in my rant.

  21. feministhater says:

    Father’s day should be about unlimited unbridled unmitigated acknowledgement about the fathers who die in wars, who die doing dangerous jobs, who work hard hours to provide for their families, fathers who give their lives saving people as police officers, firemen, it should be about fathers who risk their lives daily to save even strangers from ice, water, fire and various other accidents. Father’s day should also encompass all the 99% male inventors who created most technology and science in this world (almost all geniuses in the world are male and continue to be male). Father’s day should point out that 99% of upkeep and building of our civilization is staffed by men – the builders, the construction workers, the plumbers, the electricians, the truckers, the miners, waste disposal workers, the scores and scores of manual workers who keep the country running smoothly.

    Thank you. This is the cognitive dissonance I have with them struggling to find an ounce of energy to respect fathers… when fathers just do so much for us everyday. It’s mind blowing. If fathers were truly like they seem to think, the world would be an utterly crap place to be.

    Deep down I think they know this but once again it comes down to pandering to the sensibilities of their mostly female audiences. It stems from a place of jealously from women. If fathers were to be honoured for doing the things that men mostly do, there would be cries of “what about the women who do these things too!?” and then they would have to tone police and so on as not to offend. Better to keep scolding men for the crimes of a few to keep the pews warm and the coffers marginally full.

    You see, by acknowledging men for the sacrifices they make, they are in turn making it known how relatively few women partake in these same tasks, and that, dear Gentlemen, cannot be allowed.

  22. Lost Patrol says:

    An inherent difficulty for any public figure such as in this case a priest or pastor is that he does not think he has the authorization to honor fathers and let that stand alone. They always have the understanding that the women of their flocks must be accorded honor or at least mention, and a straight forward elevation of fatherhood without any admonitions or reference to women’s roles is hard to puzzle out as the references in the OP show.

    Thundergot and FH show this well in their comments, summarized by –

    If fathers were to be honoured for doing the things that men mostly do, there would be cries of “what about the women who do these things too!?”

    Every public figure in the (first) world knows they must address the contributions by women to any field under discussion. If 1000 linemen are out repairing power lines after a storm, there will almost certainly be a woman involved somewhere, maybe driving or holding a sign or taking reports over the phone, so the announcer or politician knows to say “our men and women” are out right now working to restore the system. Same with the police, fire, or any of the other working men that Thundergot highlights. There will be a woman somewhere in the chain, so it will always be the “men and women”.

    If an infantry regiment with supporting arms is on the attack, there will be at some level 5 to 10 women involved among the thousands of troops. The general or politician knows they must refer to “the men and women” that are doing this difficult mission.

    For the clergyman it will often be “the guys and gals”, but the principle remains; these days it is always the “men and women of…” that are doing these tasks.

    The way to talk only fathers and sidestep the issue of women’s sensibilities is to make it about what he should be doing better. That is the authorization to not talk about the women.

  23. Novaseeker says:

    I guess I would distinguish between two things.

    One thing is the denigration of fathers, which seems to culminate on father’s day, turning it into a kind of anti-father’s day. This is pathological, and should be fought to the extent possible. It’s exceptionally negative and ineffective even for the intended effect. It should be fought and to the extent possible brought to an end.

    Another thing, though, is how to “honor your father”. I think this is different from how we honor our mothers, and I think this is where a lot of the tension around father’s day comes from, at bottom. It seems weird, off-putting and inappropriate to honor fathers in the same over-the-top, obsequious, “bridal party part 2” way we do with mothers on mother’s day, because men are not women. It feels — like it doesn’t fit. And that’s the case even if you aren’t taking the hardline anti-male, all-fathers-are-assholes approach that seems common today on father’s day. It just seems off to celebrate honoring fathers in the same way we celebrate honoring mothers, because mothers and fathers are different.

    Perhaps a better way to honor fathers would be to dedicate a day to remembering everything that they do, of course, but also emphasizing that honoring one’s father, and indeed honoring fatherhood in general, involves both recognizing what fathers do AND listening to fathers, respecting their *authority* and leadership — and emphasizing a recommitment to this on father’s day. This seems more appropriate than throwing dad a party like mom gets on mother’s day — which seems off. Of course, this isn’t easy to do in a culture that resists male authority of all kinds, but it seems to me that it is a key to differentiating between the way we honor fathers and the way we honor mothers, and would be more appropriate and fitting than a kind of “mother’s day for dads a month later”.

  24. feeriker says:

    American churches REALLY just need to leave secular holidays alone. Whether it’s Mother’s Day or Father’s Day, or the half dozen national holidays commemorating war or the fallen, Sundays in which church congregations morph into flag-waving, Caesar-worshiping fascists, they are just plain toxic to the worship of Jesus. Matter o’ fact, in continuation of what I already said upthread, it really just underscores how unimportant Jesus and His message are to the typical American churchian.

  25. Boxer says:

    I broke my own rule and turned on network tee-vee yesterday. The commercials were pathetic. One showed a married man falling down a flight of steps, while his wife rolled her eyes. Immediately afterward, in a completely different advertisement, a wife and mother was just trying to relax when her husband drove their car into a swimming pool.

    Perhaps a better way to honor fathers would be to dedicate a day to remembering everything that they do, of course, but also emphasizing that honoring one’s father, and indeed honoring fatherhood in general, involves both recognizing what fathers do AND listening to fathers, respecting their *authority* and leadership — and emphasizing a recommitment to this on father’s day.

    This is a very good observation. It might be that fathers day is an easy target, because fathers themselves find the gushy emoting to be awkward and ridiculous.

    I’m certainly glad I have my dad around. He’s the best possible person to talk to and get advice from. I expect everyone here will be, at the minimum, calling his father on the 19th to say as much.

  26. DadofHomeschoolers says:

    Emperor,
    Thank You for posting the passage from Sirach. If no one else does, I needed that, and found much encouragement from it. Today we bring my father back home from the hospital, to die. He’s been with us for almost six years, and my constant prayer has been, “don’t let me dishonor him”. The next few weeks (days, months?) will be hard. I am praying the Father forgives my occasional eye roll.
    I think there’s an element of you are honoring your Heavenly Father when you honor your earthly father, and how can you expect to honor The Father when you are in heaven when you can’t honor the one you have here? Yea yea, I hear your “you don’t know my father!”. You can just shut up. Kind of like all these women who can’t stand the patriarchy, are going to be shocked to find Heaven to be a patriarchy.
    I had lots more when I started typing, but it all went away, so I guess I am supposed to stop here, with letting you know that you encouraged me.
    DoHS

  27. Cane Caldo says:

    Just a few observations…

    -Mitch Temple speaks like a soft guy; a man who isn’t familiar with exerting effort in either work or play.

    -Stephen Kendrick actually talks like a girl. He doesn’t have a naturally high voice yet he does move it up in the register. Meanwhile, his eyes are way too expressive. It reminds me of an obnoxious female kindergarten teacher who says things like “Ok friends!” right before she invents a stupid name for lining up single file. “Ok, friends! Time to get in Hall Exploration Mode!”

    -There is only one positive picture of fatherhood that is acceptable to display in honor: Fathers with small children. Check out the pics used on the Honor Your Father Today website. In previous times these kids would be called “on the apron strings”. Fatherhood took a more central role once the child was off the apron strings; when expectations, responsibility, and rewards (as opposed to gifts) are imparted. The same picture is present in a (here infamous) Matt Chandler sermon.

    Playing with children on the floor, tucking them in, etc. The Matt Chandler sermon is the key to understanding why contemporary Christians view of fatherhood is centered on small children. He says that after work fathers must come home and serve Momma. Then he has to govern and entertain the kids. Then a father is to “sit with Momma some more; check on her heart!”. In other words: the positive contemporary Christian picture of fatherhood is the guy who gives Momma a break. It’s not actually about fathers at all.

    – Honor Your Father Today has a whole section called “Imperfect Dads”. Here’s what it says:

    In a society where fatherlessness (or at least dads who aren’t stepping up to the plate) runs rampant, one thought must race through the minds of so many men and women out there: “How do you honor someone who isn’t honorable?”

    They just flat-out say that many (or most) fathers aren’t honorable. What follows are videos and articles about dishonorable fathers: Not a Hallmark Dad, Healing from Scars of Childhood, How Do I Honor a Dishonorable Dad”, etc.

    – There are no articles about how to honor a father when the rest of one’s family (mother, siblings, etc.) discourages it.

    -The whole focus of Honor Your Father Today is to tell dad you like him, or that you like something he did. The Biblical focus of honoring fathers–and mother for that matter–is obedience. I watched seven of the videos on why and how to honor fathers. None spoke of obedience.

  28. Dalrock says:

    @Splashman

    Nice cuisinart you got there, Dalrock.

    We can all agree that on Father’s Day, it makes sense to honor fathers (not trash them, ridicule them, etc.). But the fifth commandment is not “Honor all fathers and mothers” or “Honor fathers from the pulpit”; it reads “Honor your father and mother…”. Since the subject of your post regards honoring fathers in general, you are incorrect to claim (repeatedly) that the commandment supports your position.

    Next time leave that reference out. Your point is still rock-solid and inarguable without it.

    You’ve misunderstood. There is no requirement to preach a Father’s Day sermon. The program is called “Honor Your Father Today”. Their proposal is that Christians honor their fathers on Father’s Day. But such a proposal is radical to conservative Christians, in part because Father’s Day is a day many pastors use to tear down fathers. For any other group, a program proposing that people honor their fathers on Father’s day would have to explain why they exist, since everyone already does this. But in this case, the leaders of the program have a different problem. They have to explain to lay people and pastors why Father’s Day should be a day to honor your father.

  29. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    Another thing, though, is how to “honor your father”. I think this is different from how we honor our mothers, and I think this is where a lot of the tension around father’s day comes from, at bottom. It seems weird, off-putting and inappropriate to honor fathers in the same over-the-top, obsequious, “bridal party part 2” way we do with mothers on mother’s day, because men are not women. It feels — like it doesn’t fit. And that’s the case even if you aren’t taking the hardline anti-male, all-fathers-are-assholes approach that seems common today on father’s day. It just seems off to celebrate honoring fathers in the same way we celebrate honoring mothers, because mothers and fathers are different.

    Great point.

    And then Cane came along and provided the companion insight:

    -The whole focus of Honor Your Father Today is to tell dad you like him, or that you like something he did. The Biblical focus of honoring fathers–and mother for that matter–is obedience. I watched seven of the videos on why and how to honor fathers. None spoke of obedience.

  30. Neguy says:

    Looks like a basic positive development. So good news at first glance.

    Maybe you are having an impact, Dalrock. I suspect many of these guys know who you are and have read your critiques of them.

  31. Dalrock says:

    @Cane

    They just flat-out say that many (or most) fathers aren’t honorable. What follows are videos and articles about dishonorable fathers: Not a Hallmark Dad, Healing from Scars of Childhood, How Do I Honor a Dishonorable Dad”, etc.

    Yes. It really is astounding. The implication is there in a more subtle form on the about page, but they lay it bare in the part you quoted. This all comes back to the method used to avoid confronting feminist rebellion: Something mysterious happened to men! It is laughably clumsy, but it works because the audience wants it.

  32. OKRickety says:

    It is good to see Stephen Kendrick giving support to honoring fathers. Wouldn’t it be just as good, probably even better, if he were to support honoring husbands, too, instead of dishonoring them as he does in the movie Fireproof? Or does honoring fathers only count when the fathers’ actions are those that honor mothers?

  33. Dry Holes says:

    Per Cane’s comment-

    The American folk religion that has replaced Christianity hates authority & obedience; loves rather rebellion, and thinks leftist “equality” a virtue. Our disrespect and disobedience of our earthly fathers mimics our disrespect and disobedience of our Heavenly Father. We hate all Fathers (Heavenly, Spiritual, Paternal and Husbands).

    “Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.” John 14:23

  34. DadofHomeschoolers says:

    Since I’m here…….
    Does anyone else this as an addition to the Promise Keepers thread? What I remember from my involvement with the PK movement is “somethings wrong, Let us, as men, make sure it’s not us”. Turns out, that while there was some things to work on, it wasn’t all us, and since then not very many speakers have had the intestinal fortitude to really lay blame where the rest of the problem is.
    FWIW
    DoHS

  35. Boxer says:

    Dear OK Rickety:

    It is good to see Stephen Kendrick giving support to honoring fathers. Wouldn’t it be just as good, probably even better, if he were to support honoring husbands, too, instead of dishonoring them as he does in the movie Fireproof? Or does honoring fathers only count when the fathers’ actions are those that honor mothers?

    Like Neguy, above, I suspect Mr. Kendrick may read this blog and its comments. I know some of us have conversed with @stephenandjill on Twitter in the past, so he’s certainly aware of this place.

    I’m currently absolutely firewalled from participating on Twitter (lol) but if I weren’t, I’d be there thanking him for his efforts and leaving him a(nother) link to this blog.

    Feel free to leave him such a comment if you have the time.

    We should be gracious when one of these people makes concessions, and encourage him to continue moving to our side of the fence.

    Best,

    Boxer

  36. Dalrock says:

    @OKRickety

    It is good to see Stephen Kendrick giving support to honoring fathers. Wouldn’t it be just as good, probably even better, if he were to support honoring husbands, too, instead of dishonoring them as he does in the movie Fireproof? Or does honoring fathers only count when the fathers’ actions are those that honor mothers?

    It is good to see him do this. Likewise with Dennis Rainey.

    But Kendrick’s track record is as bad with fathers as it is with husbands. I’ll do a follow up post on this, but Courageous was as anti father as Fireproof was anti husband. Even worse, it was anti good father. Then there is War Room, a movie where the Christian married father is painted so badly even secular critics were astonished. And before War Room and Courageous, there was Flywheel, which from the synopsis seems to be the same basic plot as War Room: A piece of scum married Christian father lies, cheats, and steals his way through life, much to the pain of his sainted wife and children. Eventually he meets a crisis point and learns to be godly like his wife.

    Throw in Mom’s Night Out, a movie so anti father that secular feminists were mortified, which wasn’t created by the Kendrick Brothers but one that Stephen’s brother Alex helped with, and the pattern is undeniable.

  37. Chris says:

    “And yet fathers do so much for everyone else. From keeping the peace, to keeping the lights on, to keeping the water and sanitation systems going, to mining the materials and oil needed to keep society ticking along, to providing the muscle and intelligence to make inventions that keep us warm, comfortable and able to live a life of relative ease.”

    And die on the front lines of war so we can continue to do those things. Incindentally, I noticed a handful of Feminist journalists calling for the end of the military draft when there were rumors that Uncle Sam was hinting at making women eligible for it. Strange coincidence, I’m sure.

    And prayers and Godspeed to you, FoHS.

  38. Cloudbuster says:

    I don’t need “encouragement.” I’m a father, not a mopey 11-year-old. It’s my job to encourage my children. I don’t need to be fixed. I’m a good father.

    Father’s Day is just another ginned up fake holiday, like Mother’s Day and the other guilt-trip Hallmark holidays. I wouldn’t care if it was never celebrated again.

  39. Tim says:

    Evolution of Man:

    #1: Everything upon the earth was built by men. There’s not a single, substantial structure on the earth primarily built by women.

    #2: It was men that were trafficked, exploited, used, manipulated, brainwashed and disposed of in all the wars for the advancement of women and the state.

    #3: Men have always been primarily responsible for working the most dirty, most dangerous, most life shortening, most back breaking jobs, for the advancement of women and the state.

    #4: Women demand quotas only in the most prestigious, most powerful, most lucrative positions and didn’t demand their place in employment until after men made work relatively safe, broken nail free and mussed hair proof.

    #5: Men pay the majority of taxes, but the vast majority of spending on healthcare, welfare and education is spent at the state and federal level on women.

    #6: The vast majority of alimony, asset division and child support flows from men to women.

    #7: Trillions in wealth and power have been forcefully transferred, via state power, from men to women and the state through Affirmative Action, Title IX, alimony, asset division and child support (alimony++).

    #8: Affirmative Consent – a feminist creation like no-fault divorce (legislation written by NAWL), seeks to remove men’s rights to presumption of innocence and due process at the behest of a woman scorned, on her word alone.

    #9: Feminists, while standing tall against the idea of men defining femininity, insist on defining and redefining masculinity.

    #10: Feminists claim sole ownership of victimhood and ignore the many benefits patriarchy has bestowed upon women whilst also ignoring the billions of male victims of gynocentrism.

    So you see, feminism is really just a bunch of DSM-V, Cluster B class histrionic women bent on forcing wealth and power from men to themselves, all the while demonizing men in an effort to continue to bring men to women’s and the state’s heels. Let’s call it ‘cultural appropriation” of the spoils of ‘toxic masculinity”.

    The New Law of Men:

    Never give a woman and/or the state any level of legal, financial, emotional, physical, psychological or spiritual power over your life.

    Check and don’t mate. Tis bad for thine long-term survival and hairline.

  40. >There will be a woman somewhere in the chain, so it will always be the “men and women”.

    If it’s something good, that is! If we’re talking about something bad, like drug-running operations or human trafficking rings, the women involved get flushed down the memory hole.

  41. PokeSalad says:

    Fantastic post, Dal. You hit it out of the park on this one!

  42. Eidolon says:

    A question for you folks as Father’s Day approaches. I know it’s a bit off-topic in this context but Scott’s blog isn’t running right now. I’d like a second opinion about my approach to my dad. I apologize for the length and for being semi-OT.

    My folks were neglectful of me growing up and maintained a dirty environment that caused a lifelong illness, for which they didn’t take me to the doctor to get treatment. I was left alone to do my own thing for pretty much my entire life, and they taught me the bare minimum to get what they wanted so I wouldn’t be in the way, neglecting little things like how to dress, shave, be properly clean, be a good man, etc. Nearly every conversation at home I recall with my dad involved him reading web sites on his computer (which I originally set up and got onto the internet) with the TV on and with his back to me, and me trying to engage him in conversation with limited results.

    More recently my wife told them about my condition and some things that cause problems for me, which they ignored and later claimed not to remember hearing, despite her repeating the details several times. When they visited our home, they complained about having to follow our one simple “take your shoes off” rule and often didn’t follow it, and they were so dirty that just staying at our house for a couple of days took my wife a week of cleaning to remedy. My dad got oil from his hair all over our couch, indicating that he didn’t even bother to take a shower within 24 hours of coming to visit our home (most likely it was 48+ hours).

    When our kid was born I finally told them that their dirtiness is a problem for me (as verified by doctors and anecdotes) so it will be a problem for our child, and I don’t want them to see the kid for at least 6 months so it doesn’t get sick. (This is particularly important because the previous Christmas I saw my mom cough on my cousin’s baby, who had a line run to her heart at the time and was thus particularly vulnerable to disease. Shortly thereafter the little girl went back to the hospital and nearly died.) They not only did not agree to do anything about this, they sputtered a couple of “how could yous” and expected that to guilt me into doing what they wanted. When that didn’t work they were all out of ideas. My dad eventually sent me another guilt-trip email, but it took over a year, and there was no content, just “we feel sad therefore you should do what we want.”

    How does one honor a spineless dad like this? I thought we could discuss the problem as men, but he just threw emotional fits and didn’t address my concerns in any way. I didn’t bother to talk to them because I was waiting for them to respond in some way to what I had said, which they never really did.

    My feeling has been that the most honoring thing I can do is to take away the opportunity to do wrong to me and my family by staying away from them. I could argue that they’re not family because they don’t exhibit any of the behavior one would expect from parents, as well, but I’m not trying to get out of anything, I’m just trying to deal with a bad situation as best I can. It seems like staying away is what’s best for him (and them).

    If it were me I’d be happy to know that someone prevented me from doing harm to someone else when I was being careless. I don’t think he cares but I feel like morally that’s the best thing for him. I hope for them to change but expect that they won’t, and I feel like prioritizing my kid is most important, since they’ve had their chance to change and fix things and refused. They’ve disrespected me to no end, in addition to being neglectful and unloving, and have themselves done little but grieve their child, as they are not to do.

    What say you all? To me, it’s not possible to forgive someone (at least as in forgive and move forward with the relationship) who does not repent and will do the same thing tomorrow. The most honoring thing I can think of is to remove their temptation to sin towards me, my wife and my child. Some of you folks are very thoughtful and I would appreciate your take. Thanks for anyone who made it this far.

  43. Lost Patrol says:

    I suspect many of these guys know who you are and have read your critiques of them.

    I wouldn’t have thought so but I did see an interchange here between a clergyman and the commenters back when I first arrived at Dalrock. When I bring some of this material to the fore with clergymen in person they try to put it to bed fast and get on to something else. Unwanted disequilibrium. If asked I probably would have said most of them stick to forums and venues that affirm what they are doing and saying, but maybe it’s not so easy to disregard material where your own name appears and your methods are examined.

    If they do read enough to understand the hidden patterns exposed here, I wonder if it makes them think things through with a more open mind. Maybe re-examine some treasured and long held notions about men and women. It would mark a real man of character if one were able to do so.

  44. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @Cane Caldo
    They just flat-out say that many (or most) fathers aren’t honorable. What follows are videos and articles about dishonorable fathers: Not a Hallmark Dad, Healing from Scars of Childhood, How Do I Honor a Dishonorable Dad”, etc.

    I’d like to offer a modest proposal for those in the church who are sick of their ministers’ eagerness to appease the enemies of Christ by insulting and castigating fathers on the one day specifically set aside for their honor. This year on Father’s Day, simply take your place in the pew on Sunday, and be careful take notice of how the man in the pulpit treats the occasion. Does he draw attention to those who fail to perform well as fathers? Does he sneer at the fathers present for any real or imagined deficiencies on their part, and follow up with a speech demanding that they “be better?” Carefully note the ways in which your pastor observes Father’s Day by “honoring” the fathers present, and then as you leave, say to yourself, “I now resolve to render Pastor’s Appreciation Day in the very same manner.”

    Just think of the possibilities this opens for cards sent observing the occasion:

    “On this Pastor’s Appreciation Day, you may already be aware that many today view both the church and the office of “Pastor” with contempt and suspicion. And with such modern examples as Jim Jones, the Reverend Ike, and Ted Haggard, who can blame them?

    In the loving spirit of Jesus, we wish to see you avoid such a path for yourself. So we offer a list of suggestions on how to do a better job than the one you are doing now . . . . ”

  45. Boxer says:

    I’d like to offer a modest proposal for those in the church who are sick of their ministers’ eagerness to appease the enemies of Christ by insulting and castigating fathers on the one day specifically set aside for their honor.

    That’s cute, and passive-aggressive, and sorta feminine. Even so, it’s funny to think about.

    A better response would be to simply get up and walk out of a sermon, at the moment you feel the feminism is being spread too thick. Your neighbors will see it. Your wife may not follow. All that is fine. Make a quiet but conspicuous exit, and don’t come back without an apology.

    Really, you guys wouldn’t voluntarily attend a meeting of the Society for Cutting Up Men, or Jewish Lesbian Women Against The Patriarchy. (Those two groups actually exist, at least on the internet). Why would you sit through the same feminist message, just because the dork who’s giving it went through priest or rabbi or minister school?

    If you don’t dare do this much, well, I guess you’ve gotta do what you gotta do to keep your family intact. The least you can do is to resolve you won’t give these fools any of your money.

    Boxer

  46. Jim says:

    This is amazing, really. Cuckservatives are more anti-father than secular people..

    This is also why deep-red states often destroy fathers in divorce court to a greater extent that even in San Francisco…

    And these fucking idiots wonder why MGTOW is growing so fast. LOL. I mean you can only be so stupid but they have exceeded the limits here somehow.

  47. Casey says:

    Religion is big business

    The reason these pastors open their clips speaking to the ‘radical’ notion of honoring fathers is that they are DEATHLY AFRAID of pissing off the women in their congregations. That would be bad for business.

    It therefore comes across as less of an ‘opening line’ and more of a ‘disclaimer’.

    The underlying tone is that honoring fathers is more about showing grace to this unworthy rogue, and therefore pedestaling yourself (herself) for being so gracious to show this peasant mercy.

    It is not about the obvious, which is to thank men for the many, many, many personal sacrifices that men make for their own families/children as well as the world around them.

  48. Anon says:

    Jim,

    And these fucking idiots wonder why MGTOW is growing so fast. LOL. I mean you can only be so stupid but they have exceeded the limits here somehow.

    I wish that were true, but I still only see a small percentage of men truly adjusting their behavior, and turning down chances to marry women who are no higher than 6s.

    I mean, I still see 38 y/o never married women who rode the carousel for 20 years, find a 38 y/o schlub to ‘put a ring on it’, without that much difficulty.

  49. Anon says:

    Casey,

    Religion is big business

    The reason these pastors open their clips speaking to the ‘radical’ notion of honoring fathers is that they are DEATHLY AFRAID of pissing off the women in their congregations. That would be bad for business.

    Women only hold this much sway because full democracy always leads to women voting in a way that distorts the entire economy towards diverting money to women.

    The TV commercials Boxer mentioned are just more evidence of this. This only happens because when women can vote, all resources eventually get voted by them to them.

    It is the biggest False Economy ever created.

  50. Iowa Slim says:

    I’ve had honor and respect every day of my life as a father and a man since I ran the last crazy lady out of my life. Logically, every man should experience the same in church every day the church is open for business…perhaps as a result of the same sort of action.

    I’m with a couple of the upstream posters about the needless syncretism involved in carting these commercialized secular fake holidays into the life of the church. Back when I was involved in church, this phenomenon baffled the hell out of me.

    I was a committed evangelical for 14 years, having been “saved” at the age of 25. I’m not remembering any vivid examples of the Father’s Day father-bashing sermonizing I’ve seen referenced here. The comprehensive gelding culture of the evangelical church I remember quite clearly. It was a stench in my nostrils. I searched a lot of congregations without finding relief from it. Couldn’t justify exposing my sons to it. It was among the reasons I washed my hands of the whole peculiar mess and turned my back on it for good in 2003. I’ve apparently not been missing much.

  51. Dalrock says:

    @Iowa Slim

    I was a committed evangelical for 14 years, having been “saved” at the age of 25. I’m not remembering any vivid examples of the Father’s Day father-bashing sermonizing I’ve seen referenced here.

    Such sermons aren’t universal, but they are a striking symptom of the larger disease (along with the absence of a meaningful backlash against something so outlandish). The same would be true for any specific program to fix the sudden and mysterious change in men (Promise Keepers, Stepping Up, etc). More universal are the anti married father films like Courageous, War Room, Mom’s Night Out, etc.

  52. BillyS says:

    This is also why deep-red states often destroy fathers in divorce court to a greater extent that even in San Francisco…

    I didn’t have any children in care, so I don’t know that aspect, but Texas law was fairly reasonable for me in my recent divorce of a long term marriage. Not perfect, but I managed to keep many things.

  53. Casey says:

    @ Anon

    The powers that (truly) be, want women to join the workforce.

    Their addition to the workforce halved the cost of labour, while splintering any effort for the man of the house to run the place in a fiscally responsible fashion. He has to bargain with his own earnings under the shadow of the law (let alone any bargaining re: her earnings).

    I have yet to meet a woman who didn’t piss away her earnings on the most frivolous crap.

    We don’t encourage fiscal responsibility as a society – at any level. We aren’t taught a fiscal education, so you get a populace who are fiscally retarded.

    What is taught is how to engage the selfish side of yourself. You are a special, unique person…….and you deserve this (bauble of some sort). It’s all part of the undermining of any social/family values.

    Anything goes, and nothing matters!

    (So-called) Higher Education campuses across Western nations have become Kindergarten for 20-somethings.

    When Colleges/Universities have to introduce safe spaces, crayons, coloring books, & modeling clay as a ‘basic offering’ to entice students to attend……….you have deep-rooted social problems.

    What is desperately needed is a culling of useless degree offerings, a shrinking of campuses, expulsion of students who can’t cope without safe spaces, and a repudiation of student debt.

    In short – Accountability needs to be re-introduced into society (something that hasn’t been fashionable for decades).

    College/University has become just one more scam. Backed by the state, and meant to enslave you to an inextinguishable student loan debt.

    Circa 2008/2009 was a lesson in desperation. Far and wide people got deeply scared, and stopped spending. It put the whole system at risk of falling into an abyss.

    The minute that the populace sits on their wallets for 3 – 6 months, the whole façade comes unglued.

    I recall a General Motors ‘Two-for-One’ TV ad that ran during that time…….briefly. You will never find that TV ad on YouTube.

    It is a stern reminder of what a deflation looks like – and what things actually cost when capital is scarce. GM would rather expunge that ad from existence.

    Painful medicine needs to be taken, but can-kicking is the favorite pastime of the political class.

    Nothing will change voluntarily. Circumstances will eventually dictate the terms of a social contract re-write.

    I don’t know what it may look like, I only know that I would not die to preserve our current way of life.

  54. Iowa Slim says:

    @ Dalrock

    “Such sermons aren’t universal, but they are a striking symptom of the larger disease (along with the absence of a meaningful backlash against something so outlandish). The same would be true for any specific program to fix the sudden and mysterious change in men (Promise Keepers, Stepping Up, etc). More universal are the anti married father films like Courageous, War Room, Mom’s Night Out, etc.”

    I’m sure not doubting it. It sounds like an emboldened progression of the ghastly rot I found all around me when I was active in those circles 14+ years ago. I’ve been having a great time not paying attention to this foolishness for quite a while.

    The one program you mentioned that I remember from my active evangelical church time is Promise Keepers.

    I got a copy of Courageous right after it came out from my BPD church lady ex-wife after the divorce. She sent it to me with one of my sons as a supposedly father-encouraging movie for me to watch with the boys. My eldest boy watched it alone first, and he wasn’t glad he did. He and I viewed the first fifteen minutes of it together, then spent thirty minutes discussing the thin-skulled logical fallacies that opening slice of the movie contained before heaving the disc in the trash can.

    One of the earlier posters nailed it by describing this crap as a weirdo American folk religion that has supplanted Christianity.

  55. thedeti says:

    Eidolon:

    I’m in something of a similar situation with my parents, though not to that degree. My mother has a lot of health problems, including inability to negotiate stairs, incontinence, and diabetic neuropathy which causes her to be unable to walk long distances. She has back pain which keeps her from sitting for long periods of time. Dad waits on her hand and foot. It’s been like this for as long as I can remember.

    My mom has dictated when to eat, what to eat, and where she can go and for how long. She can’t take showers at my house because she can’t walk up and down the stairs to get there. She has accidentally urinated on carpet, furniture and the floor, and either didn’t know or just didn’t care enough to tell me, with us discovering it later after they had left the house.

    So as a result I have set down boundaries and limited the time they can spend at my home. Barring extreme circumstances they may stay no longer than 48 hours, after which they are welcome to return to their own home, which home they may keep any way they wish.

    I have a right to people not pissing on my furniture – even if that person is my mom, and even if she cannot help it. I know she gave birth to me. I still don’t want her pissing on the rug. If she cannot help it, then she should wear better Depends or stay at home. I have a right to have people not dictate to me what we’ll eat, when or where, or how long we can stay somewhere, when I am in my own home, that I pay for and finance. Even if those people are my parents. I know they raised me. I don’t owe them any more than honor for that. I don’t owe them obeisance to every convenience they want or need. I’m not required to wait on them hand and foot. Dad can do that for Mom.

    I have a right to live my life, in my own home, any way I want. I have a right to keep that home in the condition I prefer, and am not required to change it to suit others, even if those others birthed me and raised me. I also am not required to endanger the lives of small children entrusted to my care because mom and dad will feel bad if I don’t do what they want.

    The best way to honor your parents in that situation is to communicate with them by email and letter and phone, and to limit or eliminate their visits to your house. You can go see them at their house, alone, without the infant. You can see them in public. Your job as husband and father trumps your obligations as son.

  56. thedeti says:

    Eidolon:

    About the “take off your shoes” rule that your parents balked at:

    It is the height of rudeness to complain about following someone else’s house rules when in their home. Your house, your rules. Period. End of discussion. You come to Eidolon’s home, you remove your shoes. Period. End of discussion. That includes everyone, including Mom and Dad.

    You are not required to put up with rude and entitled behavior, not even from your parents. You are required to honor them. But that doesn’t require you to permit them to do whatever they want in your own home.

    Best way to honor them is to put down firm boundaries, tell them you love them, perhaps send a nice card or email.

    Honor does not mean love, respect, have a relationship with, or even forgive. It just means acknowledging the place they have or had in your life.

  57. @Dalrock,
    Not sure if you saw this article. Interesting perspective from a female writer, Denise Stirk. She must have had a good father and/or a good husband.

    A year ago such online sentiment about fathers versus mothers would be unheard of, ridiculed or shouted down. We can only hope attitudes about dads will begin to shift.

    21 Things Dads Do Better: https://www.popsugar.com/moms/Things-Dads-Do-Better-34929973

    I can’t disagree with a single one on her list. There’s more she left off.

    Now that I’m older, I love my father and his father all the more for such little big things, but mainly for just being present. In my case he was a blue-pill, but a stone bridge over troubled water nevertheless.

  58. jazzdrive3 says:

    I’m preaching at our church on Father’s Day this year, and I think I’m going to make some people uncomfortable. It will be about what father’s are for, being named after God the Father, honoring them, and then specific ways each person (wife, child, friend) can honor fathers they know.

    And part of this will be the authority a father has, so if a wife or child comes to you asking for advice, your first question to them should be “What does your husband/father think?” And if they don’t know, the conversation should end.

    The church I’m at does a great job with a lot of things, full of dedicated people, and the tradition it belong to at large has generally fought against feminism…but there are still some assumptions we all hold by virtue of growing up in this culture. We just don’t know how deep some of these feminist assumptions go.

    So I hope to dig a bit deeper. I’ll post a link after its up on the website, if that’s alright.

  59. @thedeti:

    Okay, the pissing on your furniture line got me laughing hard. Real hard.

    @Eidolon:

    I think there’s a need to, from the Christian perspective, dissect what “honor” means.

    http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3513.htm

    I’ve seen some further dissections that the implication would be something close to “weigh the value of (gold)”. So it’s a matter of measuring the value of your parents, and responding accordingly.

    For those with good parents, with proper boundaries and high-trust, it’s a lot easier. Simply state what’s acceptable & what is not and they’ll act accordingly. For those that don’t? That’s the rougher side of the equation. You have to set boundaries that best bring glory to the Lord, which, when this comes up, in most cases requires keeping them at arms length with extremely explicit and enforced boundaries. You have to act in such a way to make up for the deficiency in their character & life.

    It would be better if it didn’t have to be done, but it does. You reflect Christ by enforcing the proper relationship and you protect everyone for it. That is “love” in the Christian sense.

  60. TheLastCoyote says:

    Why exactly am I supposed to give a rip what these pastors think? The only reason these slick Chief Marketing Officers – er, I mean pastors have an audience is because gullible beta males flock to their box store churches like there is no tomorrow. They don’t give a damn about me or any other adult male on Father’s Day or any other day of the year for that matter. They just want money and free labor so they can get off on manipulating gullible beta males under the guise of Biblical instruction.

  61. Dalrock says:

    @constrainedlocus

    Not sure if you saw this article. Interesting perspective from a female writer, Denise Stirk. She must have had a good father and/or a good husband.

    A year ago such online sentiment about fathers versus mothers would be unheard of, ridiculed or shouted down. We can only hope attitudes about dads will begin to shift.

    21 Things Dads Do Better: https://www.popsugar.com/moms/Things-Dads-Do-Better-34929973

    Great link. I don’t see this as a change in attitudes though. Honoring fathers on Father’s Day (or near it) is normal outside of conservative Christian culture. Also, you didn’t note the subtext: She’s bragging about what she has that the other bitches don’t, a husband:

    Eating Out
    Is it just me or do daddies handle the whole eating-out-with-kids stress way better than moms? My husband will happily take the kids out to dinner, with or without me (that is where they all are, as I write this), and I’d rather keep the feeding frenzy at home.

    Sports
    I know there are some moms who wear the sporty socks in the family (again, not me), but many husbands have mamas beat in this department — my son’s T-ball coach once asked me if my 3-year-old was a lefty or righty, and I had no idea. I later asked my husband, who immediately said, “He’s a righty.”

    Even when she leaves the word husband out, it is implied.

  62. Lost Patrol says:

    @constrainedlocus

    That’s a good summary you have at the bottom of your post. My father was also a blue pill man, so of course he didn’t really know what to tell me about women. He could get bent out of shape over what I thought was nothing, but when the chips were down and it really was something, he was the Rock of Gibraltar.

    @Eidolon

    deti provides some good advice that may be hard for some to hear, but he is right. The bible verses about honoring your parents are immediately followed up by admonition to fathers not to provoke their children to anger. If you do what you have to do without rancor and in a respectful way, in my opinion you are showing yourself to be a man. This alone honors a father, I think.

  63. NeverThoughtOfAGoodUserName says:

    Speaking of the way men/fathers are treated in this culture…this reddit thread has been making the rounds lately – perhaps some of you have seen it already.

    More than anything I’ve read in a while it talks to the absolutely horrifying state of men’s rights and even basic humanity in the face of an utterly feminized matriarchal hell-hole that regards men as sub-human predators, tools, pack-mules, and cannon-fodder while simultaneously worshipping women as flawless goddesses.

  64. Splashman says:

    @Cloudbuster,

    I don’t need “encouragement.” I’m a father, not a mopey 11-year-old. It’s my job to encourage my children. I don’t need to be fixed. I’m a good father.

    Father’s Day is just another ginned up fake holiday, like Mother’s Day and the other guilt-trip Hallmark holidays. I wouldn’t care if it was never celebrated again.

    Couldn’t agree more.

  65. Iowa Slim says:

    Three of my sons are now adults. All of my kids have had regular church exposure during their time with Mother since we divorced nine years ago. I haven’t been a church guy for a long while, but I’ve been as supportive as I ought to have been of this part of their lives.

    I’ve been quite supportive and protective of the boys’ burgeoning masculine spirits all along. My oldest two sons have tuned out of spiritual life entirely. They seem to be tolerant agnostics. My 18-year-old went through that stage and apparently came up feeling a need for a spiritual aspect to his life. This has led him explore deeply into Norse paganism…which is not something I would have come up with at his age. The beta nursery religion of his youthful experience he has no way of taking seriously. Apparently he had to dig back to Thor and Odin to try on a spiritual experience that preaches and exalts masculine strength and manly character.

    None of this has been due to an anti-Christian agenda on my part. They have worked out their own conclusions. My 16-year-old told me he would like to find a “better” church that we could attend together when he’s with me. I told him I’d be glad for us to explore that together, with the proviso that we speak plainly about what we find out there.

    My five sons are smart, strong, good-looking young men with fine characters. As soon as they approach maturity, they subtract themselves from the “beta farm” religion they have grown up seeing in action. They’ll make good husbands and fathers, should they decide to go that route. It apparently won’t be with church girls, though.

    Interesting times we live in, gents. If the “conservative Christians” think so poorly of fathers, they could study up on the Shakers for a glimpse of their future.

  66. Anon says:

    Dalrock said :

    Great link. I don’t see this as a change in attitudes though. Honoring fathers on Father’s Day (or near it) is normal outside of conservative Christian culture.

    This sentence alone is incredible. The cucks are attacked as being anti-woman and pro-patriarchy, even though they have more energetic hatred of fathers than most secular people. This is closely tied to the fact that cuckservative Christians are the ones who are more enthusiastic about laws like legally requiring young men to marry and have their income imputed, while the typical Democrat is more likely to at least say that if a person (even a man) does not want to marry, he does not have to.

    Cucks are bigger feminists than feminists, on some issues, yet are still seen as oppressing women. Bigger tools, I cannot think of.

  67. Anon says:

    The same would be true for any specific program to fix the sudden and mysterious change in men

    Is this really being noticed? I mean, the general observation from the ‘sphere is that only a negligibly small percentage of men are truly red pill and taking action to avoid the customary traps that society pressures them into. This worry from cuckservatives seems too good to be true – that the change is large enough for these idiots to notice it and become concerned. Which is closer to the truth?

  68. BillyS says:

    Interesting times we live in, gents. If the “conservative Christians” think so poorly of fathers, they could study up on the Shakers for a glimpse of their future.

    I no longer consider myself conservative Iowa Slim, but believing in a world without God is inane. Humans are humans. Those with your son’s beliefs are just as wicked or even more than the Christian men Dalrock discusses. At least Dalrock is exposing things, as do a few others.

    People do what people do. Blaming God that people are stupid involves serious overvaluation of man over God.

  69. feeriker says:

    Humans are humans. Those with your son’s beliefs are just as wicked or even more than the Christian men Dalrock discusses. At least Dalrock is exposing things, as do a few others.

    People do what people do. Blaming God that people are stupid involves serious overvaluation of man over God.

    I know where you’re coming from here, but I also have to point out that a popular churchian reaction to people, especially men, who unplug from churchian nonsense is to accuse them of “blaming God” when in most cases they’re clearly –and justifiably– blaming the people who (claim to) follow God, but who aren’t fooling anyone but themselves.

    As for Iowa Slim’s son choosing to follow a thousand-years-extinct Nordic pagan religion, maybe some churchians should be (but of course won’t be) asking themselves: what did we do to this boy while he was growing up to make the Faith of Jesus so unattractive, or even repulsive, that pagan gods of a dead religion seem appealing by comparison?

    Like the women they worship (they have more in common than they’d care to realize with the worshipers of Iowa Slim’s son’s Norse gods), churchians are incapable of either introspection or admitting to wrongdoing.

  70. Spike says:

    I can reiterate that Fathers Day is anathema to men, so much so that I have told my pastor that I will be deliberately avoiding it.
    My bugbear is that, on a day singled out to honor fathers, some stupid woman in the congregation prays the following:
    “…and Father, we acknowledge that some fathers abuse their wives and children…”
    I have pointed out that, on Mothers Day, would it be okay for me to pray
    “..we acknowledge that some mothers refuse your gift of life-giving by aborting their children…”
    The only reason I don’t is that it’s tacky and in poor taste, but self-restraint is viewed as weakness by women.

  71. Scott says:

    Cloudbuster and Splashman-

    I don’t need “encouragement.” I’m a father, not a mopey 11-year-old. It’s my job to encourage my children. I don’t need to be fixed. I’m a good father.

    Father’s Day is just another ginned up fake holiday, like Mother’s Day and the other guilt-trip Hallmark holidays. I wouldn’t care if it was never celebrated again.

    I like this, and it is related to Novaseekers (always) great point further upthread.

    I need to think through this a bit more but there is a reason setting aside a special day to “honor” fathers is a bit unsettling to even red-pill men.

    I think you have hit it squarely on the head (again, along with Nova) but it would be good to drill down a little further. What is being called “honor” here is more like “recognition” or “encouragement” which is something cloudbuster, having grown into adult maleness (sometimes called “manhood”) finds weird.

    Good points and I need to think about it more.

  72. Emperor Constantine says:

    @Scott says:
    “What is being called “honor” here is more like “recognition” or “encouragement” which is something cloudbuster, having grown into adult maleness (sometimes called “manhood”) finds weird.”

    I don’t this is too complicated. The whole concept Father’s Day is patronizing to fathers and makes it clear that they are not dominant and that our culture is now matriarchal. In true patriarchy, every day is Father’s Day.

  73. Boxer says:

    The whole concept Father’s Day is patronizing to fathers and makes it clear that they are not dominant and that our culture is now matriarchal.

    All the more reason we should remind people to call their dads and say “thank you” on one day in the summer. In a world where fathers are demeaned and disrespected so often, they deserve a bit of recognition.

    In true patriarchy, every day is Father’s Day.

    I guess that’s true, because in a healthy patriarchal culture, nearly every man will be a father. Maybe we should look at the holiday as a sort of marker for what we want every day to look at in the ideal society.

  74. Iowa Slim says:

    @ Emperor Constantine

    “…every day is Father’s Day…”

    Thank you. This is exactly the experience my own kids have handed me. It’s why I have grown into the position of downplaying Father’s Day as they have grown past the stage of trotting along after these little cultural traditions.

    It’s fine to take it as a cue to spend a little time with Dad and speak a word of authentic appreciation, if you’re feeling it. I personally don’t leave my dear ones with the impression that I can’t feel honored and loved unless they stage a production and dig out their wallets for yet another obligatory shopping holiday.

    Not trying to be a crank about it. I just think that it becomes a bush league version of the Valentine’s Day narcissism-fest and the Christmas materialism orgy that our culture stages every year.

  75. Ron Tomlinson says:

    Great blog. Regarding the Stirk article, ‘Playing Rough’ is indeed one of the things Dads do best. However, there’s a related and overlooked activity which fathers also do, and do it best. Namely *teasing* their children. Humorous and non-coercive verbal sparring is fun and I suspect it helps to inoculate kids against bullying and genuine verbal abuse.

  76. Pingback: A radical Father’s Day proposal. - Top

  77. Iowa Slim says:

    @ feeriker

    “…what did we do to this boy while he was growing up to make the Faith of Jesus so unattractive, or even repulsive, that pagan gods of a dead religion seem appealing by comparison?”

    Thank you for getting what I had assumed needed no explanation. Like a lot of his contemporaries, this young man grew up in a broken home with minimized exposure to a financially-wrecked father due to frivolous divorce. He doesn’t know that it happened in the first place because the usual suspects in fem-powerment religious circles carried fuel instead of water to Mother’s stupid emotional brush fires.

    He does know, by his own observation, how the church affirmed the cheapening of his childhood with encouragement, outright support, craven silence, and (at the very beginning) handsome financial tributes dished out from the tithes and offerings of the faithful. He knows that his experience was harsher than that of many children of “heathen” he knows because of the input of the church.

    He knows that he was forced to watch these feral hypocrites prance and jawbone on stage every other Sunday for the next nine years. He knows that his younger siblings finally have a chance to get their time in their father’s world evened up in a custody mod hearing…very soon. He knows that among the witnesses called by the other party to oppose this long-delayed justice is none other than….the pastor’s wife.

    So no, I’m not biting on a “just as wicked” moral equivalence because he’s found some kind of man-affirming spiritual support in Norse pagan mythology. I’m just pleased as punch that the young man hasn’t take his reaction to all of this crap down a path of antisocial behavior or frank self-harm.

  78. Emperor Constantine says:

    @ Iowa Slim says:
    “He knows that he was forced to watch these feral hypocrites prance and jawbone on stage every other Sunday for the next nine years. He knows that his younger siblings finally have a chance to get their time in their father’s world evened up in a custody mod hearing…very soon.”

    Very sorry for your loss of time with your children, and you are right about fem-centric Churches driving away men. You must be an exceptional father because even with little time they have spent with you, they’ve turned out well. Good luck.

  79. Boxer says:

    Dear Iowa Slim:

    He knows that his younger siblings finally have a chance to get their time in their father’s world evened up in a custody mod hearing…very soon. He knows that among the witnesses called by the other party to oppose this long-delayed justice is none other than….the pastor’s wife.

    Damn dawg. This is terrible.

    So no, I’m not biting on a “just as wicked” moral equivalence because he’s found some kind of man-affirming spiritual support in Norse pagan mythology. I’m just pleased as punch that the young man hasn’t take his reaction to all of this crap down a path of antisocial behavior or frank self-harm.

    If anything, you ought to admire his versatility. I assume he’s at least reading those cool old eddas.

    The speech of a maiden should no man trust
    nor the words which a woman says;
    for their hearts were shaped on a whirling wheel
    and falsehood fixed in their breasts.

    http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html#lovers

  80. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    NASA gets 18,000 applicants for astronaut training, picks 12. Presumably, the Top 12 out of 18,000 candidates: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article155430979.html

    From the photo of these Top 12, it appears that 5 of them are women.

    Were these 5 women really superior to the thousands — maybe over 10,000 — male applicants?

  81. Iowa Slim says:

    Thanks for the good words, gents. Dalrock’s gonna have to start charging me extra if I keep hogging up this thread. Sorry. This stuff really gets under my skin some times.

    I’d hate to come across as a sour-gut whiner. The whole story is that my kids and I together polished up the treasure we were able to salvage. It appears to have been enough, and for that I am grateful. Like Constantine said, every day is Father’s Day around here. It’s been a damned hard pull for a lot of years, but these days I’m feeling really blessed.

  82. feeriker says:

    Were these 5 women really superior to the thousands — maybe over 10,000 — male applicants?

    Are Girl Scout cookies made out of real Girl Scouts?

  83. feeriker says:

    Inte Iowa Slim’s backstory:

    Wouldn’t it be wondrful if one of his sons asked the pastor of Mom’s church if he could give a Father’s Day testimonial about his dad – and ended it by expounding upon how loving, supportive, and positively influential Dad has been IN SPITE OF this church’s best attempts to destroy him and his sons by enabling Mom’s satanic frivorce?

    Even better if the service is on live stream where they can’t flush the audio down the memory hole…

  84. feministhater says:

    Were these 5 women really superior to the thousands — maybe over 10,000 — male applicants?

    No, not even close. They were the top of the wimmenz class and they were given entrance to keep up with equality. That’s all it is. Most of the rest of the men were better and would have worked harder and done more.

  85. Gunner Q says:

    “Humans are humans. Those with your son’s beliefs are just as wicked or even more than the Christian men Dalrock discusses. At least Dalrock is exposing things, as do a few others.”

    They’re more honest about what they believe than the Churchians ever were. There are legions of men like this, burned so badly on Christianity that they won’t come back even after realizing it wasn’t real Christianity. I cannot blame them. I’m exactly the same way with women. After 25 years of unending scorn, lies and neglect, I wouldn’t marry a unicorn even if God Himself swore she’d be faithful. It’s no longer about winning or losing, right or wrong. It’s about stopping all that pain and moving along with life.

    “People do what people do. Blaming God that people are stupid involves serious overvaluation of man over God.”

    We can blame God for abandoning His Church to the devil’s handmaidens. That’s His doing, not ours. We can blame God for not caring about the innocent until their ability to believe in Him is strangled. It’s one thing to test a man’s loyalty, another to test him to destruction.

  86. Lost Patrol says:

    Were these 5 women really superior to the thousands — maybe over 10,000 — male applicants?

    When they say it’s about equal opportunity, they mean it’s about ensuring equal outcome. I learned that here.

    @Iowa Slim

    I understand exactly where you are coming from and it’s good to hear you and your sons are salvaging the church supported shipwreck. My personal hobby horse, that I can’t belabor here for having already worn out the audience with it, is that young men around churches are not being afforded the opportunity to learn everything about Jesus the Christ. They are getting loaded down with “meek and mild” Jesus, and never learn about the masculine aspects of The Son of Man. That was part of His title for a reason and it is a compelling aspect. A young man looking for a worthy leader would easily be drawn to Him, as many thousands were in that time, if they could only be introduced. He would give the Norse gods a run for their money with regard to “man-affirming spiritual support”, but they never get to meet Him – at a church anyway.

    The modern priests and pastors do not know how to convey this, usually not understanding true masculinity themselves. It is easy to see why the young men look elsewhere for a worthy calling.

  87. Cane Caldo says:

    @Iowa Slim

    He knows that he was forced to watch these feral hypocrites prance and jawbone on stage every other Sunday for the next nine years. He knows that his younger siblings finally have a chance to get their time in their father’s world evened up in a custody mod hearing…very soon. He knows that among the witnesses called by the other party to oppose this long-delayed justice is none other than….the pastor’s wife.

    So no, I’m not biting on a “just as wicked” moral equivalence because he’s found some kind of man-affirming spiritual support in Norse pagan mythology. I’m just pleased as punch that the young man hasn’t take his reaction to all of this crap down a path of antisocial behavior or frank self-harm.

    I’ve lived worse. Get over it. Jesus is the Christ.

  88. Novaseeker says:

    We can blame God for abandoning His Church to the devil’s handmaidens. That’s His doing, not ours. We can blame God for not caring about the innocent until their ability to believe in Him is strangled. It’s one thing to test a man’s loyalty, another to test him to destruction.

    Gunner —

    He has of course done no such thing. The Church is not abandoned. It is riddled with human stupidity of the type common in our age, but it is also suffused with the holy energy of God. He is not responsible for human stupidity and sin. God deeply cares about the innocent, but everyone has to realize that this life is a vale of tears, it is the walk to the Cross — the Cross is God’s method of salvation for us, chosen by Him, and we all have to walk it, even the innocent among us (who are few), just as Christ Himself was innocent. And He is also always there — there is no test, not a single one, that we can fail with Christ in us and us in Christ. Take courage, Gunner.

  89. Gunner Q says:

    “Take courage, Gunner.”

    I’m fine, thanks. But having been through the Valley of Despair myself, I have a lot of sympathy for guys who didn’t make it through… and a lot of hatred for the false shepherds who abuse the trust they’re given. God will kill them and resurrect them so He can kill them again, but not soon enough.

    Sometimes, it helps the suffering just to hear a devout Christian say what they’re thinking.

  90. Novaseeker says:

    I haven’t been a church guy for a long while, but I’ve been as supportive as I ought to have been of this part of their lives.

    Not to be critical, as I know these situations are hard, but I believe it has been shown that the father has the primary influence in the faith life of the children, not the mother. Just to be aware.

  91. feeriker says:

    I have a lot of sympathy for guys who didn’t make it through… and a lot of hatred for the false shepherds who abuse the trust they’re given. God will kill them and resurrect them so He can kill them again, but not soon enough.

    I have to believe that upon Jesus’s return, His very first order of business is going to be to purge the church. And it’s going to be uglier and bloodier than anyone now imagines, arguably more so than what the wordly institutions will face from His wrath.

  92. feeriker says:

    Not to be critical, as I know these situations are hard, but I believe it has been shown that the father has the primary influence in the faith life of the children, not the mother. Just to be aware.

    And if you’ve read Iowa Slim’s backstory and what the church did to him and his sons, you would have to admit that encouraging them to stay away from said institution is probably the most responsible thing as a father that he could have done. That does NOT necessarily mean abandoning the Christian faith; it simply means avoiding the dens of false teachers and their blind/deaf/dumb/brainwashed followers who have hijacked it.

  93. Novaseeker says:

    encouraging them to stay away from said institution is probably the most responsible thing as a father that he could have done.

    Perhaps so for that bunch of fools, but ANY church? I think he said at the outset that he wasn’t a church guy, as in any church. That has an impact, it just does.

  94. feeriker says:

    Perhaps so for that bunch of fools, but ANY church? I think he said at the outset that he wasn’t a church guy, as in any church. That has an impact, it just does.

    When you’ve been bitten by dogs often enough, it’s perfectly natural to develop a fear and loathing of them…

  95. BillyS says:

    feeriker,

    I know where you’re coming from here, but I also have to point out that a popular churchian reaction to people, especially men, who unplug from churchian nonsense is to accuse them of “blaming God” when in most cases they’re clearly –and justifiably– blaming the people who (claim to) follow God, but who aren’t fooling anyone but themselves.

    I was addressing the agnostic aspect of where his sons are, not their dislike of specific churches. The latter is an issue that gets discussed quite a bit here and is a reasonable response, one I have wrestled with myself for many years, but abandoning God completely is never an option for a wide variety of reasons.

    As for Iowa Slim’s son choosing to follow a thousand-years-extinct Nordic pagan religion, maybe some churchians should be (but of course won’t be) asking themselves: what did we do to this boy while he was growing up to make the Faith of Jesus so unattractive, or even repulsive, that pagan gods of a dead religion seem appealing by comparison?

    Those who refuse to follow God’s Word, especially when claiming to do so, are especially liable. (See the accountability God holds teachers to.)

    I need to think through this a bit more but there is a reason setting aside a special day to “honor” fathers is a bit unsettling to even red-pill men.

    We have special days to honor everything under the sun, so a day for fathers is not that odd in such a context. Honor to fathers should not be limited to that of course, but it is not bad in and of itself.

    I may not “need” encouragement, but it isn’t bad. Who doesn’t like appreciation for what they have done?

    Emperor Constantine,

    every day is Father’s Day

    When every day is something, no day is that thing. Common phrase used in a variety of areas because it is applicable.

    This doesn’t mean we should limit positive feedback to then of course, but having a “special day” is not the main problem here.

    Iowa Slim,

    Not trying to be a crank about it. I just think that it becomes a bush league version of the Valentine’s Day narcissism-fest and the Christmas materialism orgy that our culture stages every year.

    I would agree with this as well, since most modern holidays are really marketing fests. While I have no problem with the day itself, the marketing part is prevalent there as with any other holiday.

    the pastor’s wife.

    Pastor’s wives can play far too big a role, even in churches that supposedly believe in male leadership.

    I could easily have turned from God given what my mother and step mother (later) did to my own father, but my faith lasted through that. Too bad I couldn’t spend some time talking with the son you note. I couldn’t clear out everything anymore than I can clear my own situation, but I could give him context to show that God can work in spite of the foolishness of men.

    I had considered a bit recently how much better I could have been if my father had been able to remain in my home. He and my mother had a decent relationship and I saw him every other weekend for the most part, but it was still not what it could have been. (My mother was not heavily involved in the church at the time of the divorce, so her issues were outside that, but I understand the overall automatic support for women that goes so much against the Scriptures.)

    So no, I’m not biting on a “just as wicked” moral equivalence because he’s found some kind of man-affirming spiritual support in Norse pagan mythology. I’m just pleased as punch that the young man hasn’t take his reaction to all of this crap down a path of antisocial behavior or frank self-harm.

    Jesus remains the ONLY way, so anything else is a “wicked” by definition. It will be better for him, in this life at least, if he can avoid the self destruction that many face, but Jesus remains One who is a far better choice and who provides a better solution, even with the failure of so many who claim to follow Him. You and your son are free to believe what you want of course, but ideas and choices have consequences. Notice that Adam’s excuses didn’t help him much in the Garden of Eden at The Fall.

    Please keep in mind that I am in now way saying your experience was good. It sucks from what you wrote and I can more closely relate given my own experiences in the past few years, but the longer term picture must always be kept in mind.

    Thanks for the good words, gents. Dalrock’s gonna have to start charging me extra if I keep hogging up this thread. Sorry. This stuff really gets under my skin some times.

    Dalrock can speak up if he wants, but your stories are completely appropriate in these discussions. I have had plenty of my own. Don’t shy away if it helps, whether you like me personally or not!

    Gunner Q,

    We can blame God for abandoning His Church to the devil’s handmaidens. That’s His doing, not ours. We can blame God for not caring about the innocent until their ability to believe in Him is strangled. It’s one thing to test a man’s loyalty, another to test him to destruction.

    Blaming God never works out too well. See Job for one solid example.

    But having been through the Valley of Despair myself, I have a lot of sympathy for guys who didn’t make it through

    Definitely a good thing. But the true sympathy is helping them get through it, even now. Don’t leave them on the battlefield. Reaching them is a tough problem, but worthwhile.

    I am trying to figure out how to do that effectively myself now, including the equipping of those headed into the battlefield. It is not an easy thing to solve, but it needs to be done and I may as well be one of them trying to do it, whatever the personal cost.

    ====

    Lots of caveats I could give here, but I will leave this reply as it is.

  96. Iowa Slim says:

    @ Gunner

    “Sometimes, it helps the suffering just to hear a devout Christian say what they’re thinking.”

    It does. Even better than the more-common “Jesus is Lord, just shut up” static exemplified two entries above your last post. I appreciate you.

    @ Novaseeker

    I take that in the spirit in which it was offered, and I thank you.

    I don’t want to clutter this up with an encounter group monologue. Suffice it to say that I plowed fourteen years of my prime time adulthood into trying to serve God with all I had in six congregations. Study, leadership, travel, service…nothing held back. I noticed at the end of it all that I hadn’t advanced beyond the lobby of the Evangelical Church Culture shell corporation. It did a lot of damage to my marriage and my family. Could have been worse. Not worth explaining or dwelling upon now. I took a powder from it all for my own sake and especially for the sake of what my own participation in that business (at a leadership level) was endorsing as normal in the impressionable minds of my young children.

    I’m just now to the point of looking to get back on the path. It won’t be in connection with any of the outfits I rode with previously. Met with a clergyman from a different Christian faith tradition last month. Got another one I need to talk to after I get my mother buried next week. I don’t want to get into particulars, because I remember how easy it is to get the juices of theological squabble flowing.

    And to your point, Novaseeker, if my young people follow along it will be because they notice their old man being lit up with something authentic and genuinely holy. Whatever I do from here on out gets done with caution and extreme humility.

  97. Boxer says:

    Dear Novaseeker:

    Perhaps so for that bunch of fools, but ANY church?

    Since this is a problem, why not start a decent, patriarchal church that the fellas could go to? You could livestream/youtube services, a la James David Manning, for people out of your area.

    As Anon has noted in the past, with years of Dalrock blog archives, the bible, and your own creativity, you have enough material for scores of sermons.

    Note: not even joking here. If you did this, I’d join and support the church. I’m sure a lot of other men would too.

    Another option is for a couple of you brothers to get on the board of one of these big, wealthy shitlib churches, and take it over. This would objectively be more difficult, but the payoff would arguably be better in the end, since you’d instantly gain infrastructure.

    Boxer

  98. Kevin says:

    Good for them for recognizing a problem and trying to do something positive about it. I thought it was funny that they have concern – what if my Dad is not involved in my life? No one asks that about their mothers – and lots of people have terrible awful mothers – garbage human beings. But its never a questions – still praise them and celebrate them. Why is it so hard for so many to just honor fathers? Other than the satanic cult of feminism, I mean.

  99. Anon says:

    Boxer said,

    As Anon has noted in the past, with years of Dalrock blog archives, the bible, and your own creativity, you have enough material for scores of sermons.

    Yep. For the right type of entrepreneur/leader/pastoral figure, this opportunity is there for the taking.

    The archives and comments here already provide more than enough material, and once one man is brave enough to do this openly, many others will follow him or otherwise support him anonymously.

    Mike Cernovich, Roosh, and Paul Elam do what they do under their real names. We just need another like them with Christian talent to cover the church/religious angle, since this is the largest reserve of misandry in America today (cuckservatives not just hate fathers and husbands more, they are far more numerous than blue-haired shoggoths)….

    Who will be Spartacus?

  100. Anon says:

    Were these 5 women really superior to the thousands — maybe over 10,000 — male applicants?

    Short answer : No.

    Note that female astronauts makes just as little sense as female firefighters.

    That said, humans in space has no scientific value. True scientific knowledge is always gained by unmanned missions and deep-space telescopes. Humans (in their current form) will probably never colonize space in terms of permanent settlements of thousands of people, for reasons too lengthy to get into here (mostly cost/benefit vs. sending robots that don’t need air or water, and don’t need round trips).

  101. Frank K says:

    “No, not even close. They were the top of the wimmenz class and they were given entrance to keep up with equality. That’s all it is. Most of the rest of the men were better and would have worked harder and done more.”

    I’ll tell you one thing: when you look at the people who make the rockets go and all the other boring “rocket science” stuff, the overwhelming majority are men.

  102. Emperor Constantine says:

    @Boxer said:

    “Since this is a problem, why not start a decent, patriarchal church that the fellas could go to? You could livestream/youtube services, a la James David Manning, for people out of your area.”

    Precisely, that’s the only way to change things.

    Frankly, it would have to start underground in secret meetings, like the catacombs during the Roman persecutions; the reference to Spartacus was apt. In terms of pushback, don’t forget the example of one of our bravest Christian brothers, St. John the Baptist. Why was John beheaded? Because Herod was lusting after his step-daughter, and his new wife (who frivorce’d her own husband) leveraged his lust and her control over him (just as Jezebel controlled Ahab) to extract the ultimate vengeance for John the Baptist’s absolute insistence that their marriage, based on prior frivorce, was not valid.

    Hell hath no fury, and there will be an army of white-knight beta cucks, like Herod, to assist them.

  103. BillyS says:

    Completely OT, but I liked the tribute:

    Worth watching, especially if you ever watched the original.

  104. BillyS says:

    Tempting idea Boxer.

    Anon,

    Mike Cernovich, Roosh, and Paul Elam do what they do under their real names.

    Building up enough support to balance out the lost income from any daytime job could be a big challenge. Some here claim you should never get paid from ministry and that would raise another bar.

  105. BillyS says:

    BTW, Adam West just died, for those who didn’t know.

  106. MarcusD says:

    The Boy Crisis: A Sobering look at the State of our Boys, by Warren Farrell Ph.D.
    https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1054814

  107. ys says:

    @ Cane.
    Amen.

  108. Kevin says:

    @Nova and @Cane

    Great comments. It’s important to acknowledge that making Fathers Day the blubbering event Mothers Day is does not serve men any better. Solemn thanks for the sacrifice of fathers, acknowledging what they do and their role in our lives.

  109. Splashman says:

    @Frank,

    I’ll tell you one thing: when you look at the people who make the rockets go and all the other boring “rocket science” stuff, the overwhelming majority are men.

    And of the women involved, you can be certain that the overwhelming majority are glorified secretaries, but with titles that satisfy a quota. Fempower!

  110. Splashman says:

    @Kevin,

    That “father” video is pretty darn good, thanks for sharing. Can’t imagine an evangelical church producing such. Plenty of good stuff in there.

    Notice, though:

    1) “The small home I help provide” — they couldn’t bring themselves to leave out the word “help”.

    2) Father’s role appears to be limited to cash machine, horsey, and story reader. No mention of leadership, nor any uniquely masculine characteristic. Any woman watching this could comfort herself with, “I can do all that!”

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  112. Prof. Woland says:

    My wife is Russian and she grew up in the USSR where they celebrated International women’s day. What is much less well known here,is that they also have a corresponding “Army day” which in a country where military inscription for men is universal, it is essentially a “men’s day”. Women cook for the men and give them gladiolas and acknowledge the contributions and sacrifices that men made towards society.

    Here, the feminists want to celebrate “women’s day” but they just cannot stand doing anything for men, even on a quid pro quo basis. Women have become so boorish and solipsistic that it does not even occur to them anymore. As a salesman, we have a saying, “you have to toot your own horn”. Men need to stop being so modest and start celebrating our accomplishments. the women will follow.

  113. @MarcusD

    What we basically need is a return of coverture: the basic principle of coverture is that the rights of the woman are completely subsumed into that of her husband’s. A married woman could not own property, sign legal documents or enter into a contract, obtain an education against her husband’s wishes, or keep a salary for herself. A woman was led to the altar by her father who then handed her over to the husband. So, of course, she would also take HIS NAME and become a part of his identity then.

    So, at the very least, it should be a big huge red flag if a girl insists on keeping her name.

  114. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Prof. Woland: Men need to stop being so modest and start celebrating our accomplishments.

    That would be viewed with nearly as much animosity as a Straight Pride March or a White History Month.

  115. feministhater says:

    Would this be a deal breaker for you?

    It’s like she’s giving him the reason to dump her ass right there and then. If a woman refuses to take your name, it’s the utmost sign of disrespect and rebelliousness. Throw her away like a garbage bag. Just toss out.

  116. Scott says:

    The name-changing thing wouldn’t be a deal breaker, all by itself. But, all of the reasons for not doing would probably not override all the reasons for doing it.

    Therefore its underlying principles would be incompatible with mine. Probably could figure that out in a few minutes of talking.

  117. feministhater says:

    The name-changing thing wouldn’t be a deal breaker, all by itself.

    Nah, it would be. If she doesn’t want to change her name, she isn’t really willing to submit yourself to you as the leader of the family. It’s a neon sign flashing. A woman does this because she is a feminist and believes that she need not submit to her husband by taking his name. It’s a slap in the face.

  118. feministhater says:

    …. submit herself….

  119. Scott says:

    Agreed.

    I think I was trying to allow for the possibility that a super gold find of a sweet-submissive-etc woman might have some legitimate abstract reason for not changing her name.

    However in light of the odds involved I would not fault any man who used this as a “nexting” screener.

  120. Lost Patrol says:

    The name changing thread with those comments is yet one more lesson for me in how much things have changed while I wasn’t paying attention. I’m more aware these days that virtually all bets are off from what were once considered societal norms, but I still get taken by surprise sometimes at the extent of it.

    Like a lot of things it is cultural/regional/generational. The men that I ran with years ago, as totally blue pill, beta, (insert all the known cliches here) that they were, and even given that women were surreptitiously in control of everything ; still would have taken this as an open challenge and a reason to walk.

    Apparently now, not so much. Enlightenment or erosion?

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  122. feministhater says:

    Like a lot of things it is cultural/regional/generational. The men that I ran with years ago, as totally blue pill, beta, (insert all the known cliches here) that they were, and even given that women were surreptitiously in control of everything ; still would have taken this as an open challenge and a reason to walk.

    The changing of the name symbolises the woman leaving her family, under her father’s care and authority, and makes a new one with the husband, taking his name in the process and being under his authority from that point on. More than just the tradition and symbolism; the antagonism demonstrated by a woman who refuses to change her name more than clearly defines her as a woman who will stand against you and not with you.

    A man cannot get a more clear line in the sand. Either she changes her name, submits herself and becomes your wife or she walks. Don’t negotiate in the least.

  123. Gunner Q says:

    Scott @ 7:42 am:
    “I think I was trying to allow for the possibility that a super gold find of a sweet-submissive-etc woman might have some legitimate abstract reason for not changing her name.”

    The only such reason I’ve heard is because she’s professionally successful under her original name, as with an actress or author. But it’s not as if they don’t change names like clothing anyway.

    The artist formerly known as Princess?

  124. feministhater says:

    Just an excuse Gunner. It’s not as if the career women is interested in being a loyal, submissive housewife… lol don’t fall for their crap excuses.

  125. Boxer says:

    Just an excuse Gunner. It’s not as if the career women is interested in being a loyal, submissive housewife… lol don’t fall for their crap excuses.

    Men rationalize such things by projection, blind to the fact that women aren’t men.

    A healthy woman’s greatest accomplishment is landing a quality man, and locking down his money and dick in marriage. Don’t be fooled by any other ideas.

    For years, I’ve worked with tons of brilliant, successful women. Every time such a woman kept her father’s surname (the very definition of patriarchy), I ended up meeting an unmanly schlub for a husband who she settled for. In contrast, the ritual of the name change at work was a strong indicator that I was gonna meet a strong, successful husband. Other women knew this and the reactions were uniform and emphatic.

    If she’s not taking your name, she’s ashamed of you, and marrying you for some illegitimate reason. End of.

  126. John Marcucci says:

    @MarcusD whaddaya know. I initiated a discussion there today, and now the thread has been deleted. I got accused of redpill and Latin mass tendencies. Wow.

  127. Novaseeker says:

    @John —

    The place is a dumpster fire run by feminists and some of their neo-Cat allies. I wouldn’t lose much sleep over that place, but it’s useful to link to it, as Marcus does, to document the madness.

  128. Boxer says:

    Dear John Marcucci:

    The cucks and feminists at Catholic Answers are absolutely legendary on Dalrock. My condolences to the newbies who show up, thinking that they’re going to be talking to nice, family-oriented people.
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/a-husbands-plea-to-catholic-answers-forum-stop-sowing-discord-in-my-house/

    If you continue to suggest sensible solutions to social problems there (like, for example, following actual Catholic teachings) the admins will ask you to leave. This will happen sooner rather than later. Until then, have fun in that sewer.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  129. MarcusD says:

    @John Marcucci

    If I see a newbie asking for help/input/etc, I will send them a PM with a link to Dalrock (at least where it makes sense to).

    Except in rare cases, doing the opposite of what the majority at CA advise is the right way to go.

    Boxer is right about the place being a sewer.

  130. MarcusD says:

    “I got accused of redpill and Latin mass tendencies.”

    If I had to guess, that was probably coming from the Dunning-Kruger poster children, BlueEyedLady and Xantippe.

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  133. Dalrock says:

    @Eidolon
    My apologies for not responding sooner. I’ll try to give some broad stroke ideas in response, but this is obviously a very difficult situation and no doubt my advice will be incomplete.

    When they visited our home, they complained about having to follow our one simple “take your shoes off” rule and often didn’t follow it, and they were so dirty that just staying at our house for a couple of days took my wife a week of cleaning to remedy. My dad got oil from his hair all over our couch, indicating that he didn’t even bother to take a shower within 24 hours of coming to visit our home (most likely it was 48+ hours).

    I don’t think there is a rule that you have to have them stay at your house (or you at theirs) to spend time with them. In this case, they have told you they aren’t ok with the rules of your home. I would leave it at that and look for other ways to spend time with them. If they press the issue, I would gently note that they weren’t comfortable with the rules of your home, and redirect back to whatever activity you think is a better way for you to enjoy each other’s company.

    When our kid was born I finally told them that their dirtiness is a problem for me (as verified by doctors and anecdotes) so it will be a problem for our child, and I don’t want them to see the kid for at least 6 months so it doesn’t get sick. (This is particularly important because the previous Christmas I saw my mom cough on my cousin’s baby, who had a line run to her heart at the time and was thus particularly vulnerable to disease. Shortly thereafter the little girl went back to the hospital and nearly died.) They not only did not agree to do anything about this, they sputtered a couple of “how could yous” and expected that to guilt me into doing what they wanted.

    From what you describe it sounds like you have a legitimate need to be vigilant and protect your child. It sounds like it was wise to initially restrict contact, although I would suggest being diplomatic in how you communicate this. My suggestion would be as your child gets beyond the most vulnerable period to look for ways to if possible structure time with your folks that protects your child. This could be outdoors at the beach or a park, or at the movies or a restaurant, etc. Even before that, you can share pictures and videos with your folks in whatever format you think they would be most likely to consume. They may not choose to watch, so be ready for that for your own sake (this is all bringing up really painful issues around your own childhood). Make a real, sincere effort to find a way to keep them involved while protecting your family. They might refuse any offer short of moving in and creating chaos (or worse), but that would be their choice, not yours. And even if they refuse it all, you can still send them a short note or card on appropriate holidays.

    How does one honor a spineless dad like this? I thought we could discuss the problem as men, but he just threw emotional fits and didn’t address my concerns in any way. I didn’t bother to talk to them because I was waiting for them to respond in some way to what I had said, which they never really did.

    My feeling has been that the most honoring thing I can do is to take away the opportunity to do wrong to me and my family by staying away from them. I could argue that they’re not family because they don’t exhibit any of the behavior one would expect from parents, as well, but I’m not trying to get out of anything, I’m just trying to deal with a bad situation as best I can. It seems like staying away is what’s best for him (and them).

    I disagree. You have an obligation to protect your family, but I would approach this from a perspective of managing the chaos they have a tendency to bring (if I’m reading the situation correctly). Be wise as a serpent, but gentle as a dove. In addition to what I wrote above, one way you can honor your parents by looking out after them. It sounds like they may have some long set psychological issues in play here that will both make your protection more needed than usual and more difficult to offer. But you should seriously look for ways you can look after them (again, while protecting your family). Are they eating right? If not, could you periodically swing by with some neglected grocery items, a home cooked meal, or take them out to lunch or dinner? Is there something broken around the house that you know they need to fix, but they don’t think is important? If so, can you either fix it or arrange for it to be fixed?

    One other thing I would suggest is once you have what you think is a workable plan, to explain your plan to your wife. Help her understand both your objective and how you are protecting her and your child. Check out the threads on wives and mother in laws if you haven’t already, to get a sense of the vulnerability she is likely to feel. Be prepared for some “what if” objections, and help her see you take her concerns seriously while being careful not to box yourself in. You can offer some detail on what you will do if they act/respond a certain way, but the core message should be that you will manage whatever comes up. Also, your wife is likely to feel protective of you given the serious pain she knows this is causing you. Look for it, and thank her and love her for it (it is a profoundly beautiful thing), but don’t let her take charge.

  134. horatius67 says:

    @marcus You called it. Its too bad. CA used to be a solid organization back in the day. Great tracts, good magazine and good radio show mostly.

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  136. Beautiful! Let’s lift up our fathers together! They are such a blessing.

  137. pamelaparizo says:

    I didn’t read through all the comments, but I just wanted to say, my church upholds fathers. Fathers are to be the spiritual warriors for the family and make sure that the family is clean and holy. I absolutely believe fatherhood is essential to the strength of the family and it’s not good for churches to soften that role. I do feel that the truth is somewhere between Feminism and the men’s movement and that we need to strive to build up families. With that said, the abuse of women should not be minimized. It is real and it does exist. Not discontent, but women who are beaten, women who are terrorized by husbands because they believe women can’t control themselves, and this would include teenage daughters. It would be helpful if real christian men stood up against that.

  138. Anon says:

    pamelaparizo,

    You started out so well…

    Fathers are to be the spiritual warriors for the family and make sure that the family is clean and holy. I absolutely believe fatherhood is essential to the strength of the family and it’s not good for churches to soften that role.

    But then failed completely :

    I do feel that the truth is somewhere between Feminism and the men’s movement and that we need to strive to build up families.

    The fact that women decide things based on feelings rather than logic and intellect is solid proof that women should not be in any decision-making authority, nor should they have the right to vote.

    With that said, the abuse of women should not be minimized. It is real and it does exist. Not discontent, but women who are beaten, women who are terrorized by husbands because they believe women can’t control themselves, and this would include teenage daughters. It would be helpful if real christian men stood up against that.

    Absurd. This happens so rarely, and has so much government funding and other resources behind it, that it has gone too far in the opposite direction. Laws like VAWA are specifically designed to take an honest man’s children and house away from him through false accusations. Rape happens to about 1 in 400 women, mostly concentrated in the lowest classes.

    False accusations of rape and DV are the biggest problem, given how rampant it is . The notion that there is not enough being done about the REAL domestic violence that occurs is ludicrous.

    Not to mention that 41% of all domestic violence is done by women onto men.
    Not to mention the fact that women get aroused by violent men, as evidenced by the thousands of love letters that serial killers receive from women. That muddies up the discussion about whether she wanted the man to behave violently or not. It is often said that womens’ brain-gina interface is obsolete in the high-tech society we live in.

    Pamelaparizo, always remember that as a woman, you don’t really understand how women think. Hence, you are unlikely to be able to judge what is a larger problem and what is a smaller one.

  139. feeriker says:

    Second Anon’s comments.

    do feel that the truth is somewhere between Feminism and the men’s movement and that we need to strive to build up families.

    Women need to start realizing that whenever they inject the word “feel” into their arguments, they have relinquished any legitimate claim to their statements being taken seriously.

  140. Jason says:

    Every church “claims” to uplift fathers, and husbands to “be the men God called them to be”

    ……….which only means “provider” today. All the Disciples would have FAILED miserably in the eyes of the American church today as men…..by the women and the pastor I might add.

    They were just fishermen. Not (cough) real men with degrees and writs of “authority” from prestigious temples. They didn’t have good jobs. Nice homes. Their wives didn’t vacations. They left their wives and children to follow an unknown “rabbi” who was not established. Men with dubious professions like being a “tax collector” (hated on a level back then that few today could comprehend). Men who were far, far, FAR from perfect………a betrayer, a doubter, and impulsive attitudes and personalities between them all.

    And they turned the world upside down!

    Christ saw their usefulness. Their brokenness. Their need. Their potentials. He sees that in ALL of us. Too bad women don’t, pastors don’t and the church in general doesn’t

  141. feeriker says:

    Christ saw their usefulness. Their brokenness. Their need. Their potentials. He sees that in ALL of us. Too bad women don’t, pastors don’t and the church in general doesn’t.

    Women. Pastors. “The church” in general.

    What have any of these accomplished in the modern era other than to advance the goals of The World (underneath a shallow veneer of churchianity) at the cost of civilization while simultaneously perverting the Word and alienating people from the Body?

    Jason is correct. While modern churchians puff themselves up with pride in thinking that they live in a more “enlightened” era than their First Century forebears, the Christian men of that era, “unenlightened” as they were and feet of clay though they may have had, had more masculinity in their fingernail trimmings than today’s churchians have in their entire bodies. The three aforementioned groups aren’t even worthy of washing these men’s dirty feet, let alone worthy of claiming themselves heirs to their legacy of suffering in service to Our Lord Jesus.

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