A disappointing return to the strip mining pit.

The Daily Mail has an article about a 53 year old new divorcée named “Claire” who learned the hard way that her fantasy of divorce empowerment was just a fantasy.  Claire of course didn’t ditch her boring loyal dude in hopes of finding her secret multimillionaire hunky handyman;  instead she tells us that he left her after she made it clear that she didn’t want to remain married to him:

‘Bye then,’ she said, as he walked out of the door and out of her life

Though shocked and hurt, Claire, a 53-year-old travel agent from Colchester, Essex, admits part of her was excited at the thought of being single again.

While she loved her husband, like most couples in long marriages, she felt they had become a little staid and set in their ways. Their sex life was hardly the firework display of their 20s, and sometimes she’d look over at this snoring, paunchy, greying man on the other side of the bed and wonder: ‘Is this it?’

Now that Claire has experienced the realities of the SMP, she wishes she could go back and do it differently:

To Claire, it sounded like a different world; a sweet shop filled with thrills and excitement, all available at her fingertips. Just the pick-me-up she needed.

Sadly, six months later, Claire would do anything to be back in the marital home, listening for the sound of her husband’s key in the door.

…she’d be the first to warn any married woman secretly thinking the grass might be greener on the other side to stay firmly where she is.

One of the most brutal hallmarks of older women’s declining SMP power is how open men are about seeing them as good for a quick lay, but not worthy of investment/commitment.

Claire says: ‘I’d hoped to meet some decent men in their 50s, someone with whom I could enjoy a conversation or a meal out.

‘But it was horrendous and I’ve found that it’s zapped my confidence and made me feel a lot more anxious about the future.

‘I’ve been shocked by the number of men who think it’s acceptable to send you pictures of their private parts.

‘What I find particularly depressing is that these men think that’s what women today have been reduced to — that it’s a normal way to speak to a woman in 2017.

Another late life divorcée named Cath describes the same dynamic:

Mike, a 49-year-old mechanic, cut straight to the chase. He pointed out that we were no more than a couple of minutes apart.

‘On my lunch break,’ he messaged. ‘Do you fancy meeting up for a bit of fun?’

The Daily Mail brought in an expert who explained the realities of Rollo’s SMP Chart (emphasis mine):

Marital therapist Andrew Marshall, author of It’s Not A Midlife Crisis, It’s An Opportunity, says he has been seeing more and more women like Claire, bored with their marriages and tempted by one ‘last hurrah’ in the seemingly exciting world of internet dating.

Yet the reality of starting again on the dating scene, 30-plus years after they left it, rarely lives up to the expectation, says Mr Marshall.

‘For any woman whose last experience of meeting partners was many years ago via friends, work or in a nightclub, she will find the dating landscape has changed considerably — and not in her favour,’ says Mr Marshall. ‘Because, though dating sites offer the prospect of meeting thousands of men, the power dynamic has shifted once you’re an older woman.

Check out the full article at the Daily Mail for much more.

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This entry was posted in Choice Addiction, Daily Mail, Death of courtship, Fantasy vs Reality, Hold my beer and watch this, Post Marital Spinsterhood. Bookmark the permalink.

172 Responses to A disappointing return to the strip mining pit.

  1. JDG says:

    Women take heed. Stand by your man.

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  3. BillyS says:

    It is funny to read the profiles on Plenty of Fish for women who will only aim a few years older than themselves, but indicate a desire to go a decade younger.

    A few have the looks to possibly pull it off, but most are really fooling themselves. Those with the looks likely get a lot of attention, but I doubt many find the “true love” they seek.

    That shows that the ideas in this post are playing out in real life, in spite of their foolishness.

  4. thedeti says:

    One thing I’ve discovered is just how many divorced women between age 35 and 55 there are in my little neck of the woods. Another is how they reenter the dating market as 50 year old women after 20+ years of marriage (or multiple failed marriages), but still approach dating as if it were 1987, not 2017, and with the same stratospheric standards for men they had as 25 year old women. They honestly think they can still command the same level of sexual attention they once did. They also think that Sam Elliott or Robert Redford will be the order of the day. Instead it’s more like Steve Buscemi and Wallace Shawn.

  5. thedeti says:

    Another thing 50+ women seem so taken aback by, is how sexualized the modern market is. Older men going into the market are not going to invest lots of time or money in “courting” a 50 year old divorcee, showering her with attention, free meals, lots of time, and gifts. Men aren’t shy about the fact that they view middle aged and older divorcees as easy pickings – largely because they’ve shown that most of them will sleep with a man relatively soon and without much investment/commitment, so long as all the right buttons are pushed, he’s attractive enough, and she wont’ feel like a slut for doing so.

  6. Damn Crackers says:

    Being single and hitting the wall is bad enough, but getting yourself murdered by your new beau is worse:

    http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/04/man_accused_of_strangling_york.html#incart_river_home

  7. redcastle600 says:

    I kinda chuckled when the ladies in question were “shocked” that it was more about physical attraction or looks at their age or attractiveness up front instead of their “great personalities”

  8. Oscar says:

    I’m for ever amused by the truth behind the crude sayings I heard from my NCOs (all men back then) when I was a baby faced enlisted man. The relevant one here is:

    “How are women like dog turds? The older they are, the easier they are to pick up.”

  9. ‘What I find particularly depressing is that these men think that’s what women today have been reduced to — that it’s a normal way to speak to a woman in 2017.”

    She can thank Feminism and it’s Useful Idiots of the female population for those “men who think that’s what women today have been reduced to”; it was the women themselves who eagerly became a cumdumpster and f*cktoy for every ‘romantic, exciting’ Bad Boy, player, and thug that crossed their path.

  10. Casey says:

    I have no sympathy for any of them. Tinder is the lowest of the low for a dating site.
    If you are looking for a life long partner, Tinder is certainly NOT the way forward.

    The article is comical in many ways, including the following juicy nugget.

    “I admit I was excited. All these men I could take my pick from! It felt like going shopping with no limit on my card. By the end of the first hour, I had swiped right — or approved — about 50 possibilities who I liked the look of.”

    Only to be retracted moments later with the following:

    “Is this what relationships have come to? Window shopping, reducing fellow humans to a number of physical attributes on which we reject or pursue them? It all feels so clinical and wrong.”

    See how she has been able to claim the moral high ground even as she launches grenades at her last position?

    It was all good sport to ‘swipe left/right’ when it felt good/empowering. Reducing men to yes/no based solely on their looks is A-OK. Just so long as it doesn’t make HER feel bad.

    SMV and MMV are absolutely real concepts. Women may not like it, BUT…….the ignoring of facts doesn’t make them any less real/pertinent.

    As Deti said, 50-something women still feel they can command the attention of men with no effort.
    Wrong!

    A shitty attitude + a weathered face = Lonely Spinster

  11. thedeti says:

    They’re disappointed and angry that they can’t pull the very attractive men they want; and that men aren’t falling all over themselves looking to invest money and time in them. Men aren’t lining up to date them for several months before sex gets put on the table. Men who date them want sex now, or very soon thereafter, and aren’t willing to wait. If she won’t, another woman probably will.

    That’s the market these women are stepping into.

  12. Bart says:

    I do feel some pity towards these women. They are foolish and weak willed women that have been pandered to by society. They have been lied to, and they wanted to hear those lies. They were told what their itching ears wanted to hear. Now the chickens have come home to roost. They have sown to the wind, and reaped the whirlwind.

    Men fall in love with young women. If a woman marries young, and does a decent job of being a wife, her husband will almost always love her all her days. He sees her through his “wife goggles”. Though she ages, she will always remain “a lovely deer, a graceful doe” to him.

    On the other hand, if she foolishly, and wickedly abandons the companion of her youth, she will have a very hard time getting a quality man to fall in love with her as a divorced woman (with a bad attitude, sense of entitlement, weathered face, and sagging body) in her 40s or 50s.

    Other men won’t see her as “a lovely deer, a graceful doe”, they will see her as a “high mileage, dinged up, used car, with a rebuilt title”.

    Bad idea

  13. Casey says:

    @ Dalrock

    I think the appropriate title for this post should be “A Disappointing Return ON the Strip Mining Pit”

    The more time passes, the lower the ore grade is in a mining pit. All the best sites have been mined, and the remaining sites achieve low yield.

    Factor in that without constant maintenance of the ‘mining equipment’ (a woman’s looks) women simply won’t be able to mine quickly enough in a low yielding mine.

    But if women want to enjoy ‘one last hoorah’ because they believe the grass truly is greener – then knock yourself out.

    As the article suggests, these women thought they were given a fully stocked gold mine, with a LONG, DEEP SHAFT; but what they got was a devastated open-air strip-mined empty pit…….left with nothing but debris blowing around at the bottom.

    The other side of these divorces are the average, boring, loyal dudes that got dumped.
    They either aren’t on Tinder, or they’ve left the MMP/SMP altogether (quite probable)

  14. davidtaylor2 says:

    Eat, Pray, Love.

    I suggest today’s women stop doing the first one.
    Start doing the second one.
    Learn how to do the last one.

    Maybe then they’ll know not to throw away a quarter century’s worth of marriage.

  15. Bart says:

    I also had to wonder why “Claire’s” husband suddenly announced that he didn’t love her anymore, and that he wanted to leave.

    Men don’t generally do that if they have even a halfway decent marriage. Give a man sex at least once a week, a relatively nag free environment, and some tolerable food, and he generally won’t leave.

    I’d bet that this couple hardly ever had sex, and that the wife likely had a bad attitude/sense of entitlement, and the husband just got burned out and fed up.

  16. Reede says:

    I blame Dalrock squarely for me having to catch up on my reading for exams because I’ve spent the last 3-4 days plumbing into every relevant post he’s made and spending hours just going through the posts and the long, involved dialogues below. Cramming aside, I think it was worth it.

    I was thinking about this situation earlier today; right now, with the advent of birth control, you have a mismatch between womens’ behaviors and mens’ behaviors. I actually disagree with some of the narrative that feminism has been whispering to both men and women equally. What I’ve found instead is that young men have been left high and dry without any real guidance whatsoever, and that women have been given all the tools and skills to navigate this new, post birth control SMP at the expense of men.

    With the rise of “Game” and the PUAs we are seeing a massive correction in the system, and this is only becoming obvious to people who have not been in the “market” for awhile, such as this lady.

    I can’t speak for the US but all the good “beta” guys who are supposed to MAN UP are simply not there. Marriage is a joke in my demographic (18-25) as many of us either come from divorces or outside of wedlock altogether. Young men have quickly figured out that we are being given a crap deal by our parents, and the girls my age have such entitled, aggressive, masculinized attitudes that we have learned to only look at them as sexual objects.

    When I’ve encountered women from non-Western backgrounds I am totally blown away by how good they make you feel just by dealing with them, because they are raised to deal with men respectfully and kindly. It reminds me of this Mennonite family I saw while I was shopping this morning. I bet they are smirking now, seeing how f*cked things are for us over here.

  17. Opus says:

    One has to look for the subtleties with the Mail. No pic of Essex girl Claire (Colchester was a Roman town but it is still Essex so one has to assume uber-slut) but a pic of Cath wearing all-blue from the DM costume dept for I have definitely seen THAT dress before – I’ll come back to that – is from Peterborough which is a little bit further north and to the west and certainly not Essex but she does admit to trying Tinder (so clearly, whatever she says, gagging for it).

    I was wondering about my friend who now says his ‘fling’ is over. I had previously asked of him how he would feel were his long-suffering wife to seek a new boyfriend. ‘couldn’t care less” he had said with barely concealed indifference. Over a coffee earlier today he told me that she had now (a previously unknown event) not once but twice stayed out all night arriving back at about eleven in the morning. He wasn’t quite so cocky now and erred like a good cuckold towards the notion that she did have a boyfriend. I thought not: eleven means she has been with some girlfriend but I explained that had it been a man she would have come in at about four or five. ‘Perhaps she has turned Lezzie’ I suggested; he no more comforted by that notion, either.

    Blue has meaning here: there was another photo of a woman dressed in blue on the front of yesterday’s Mail: they say she is married and an almost unbelievable twenty-four points ahead in the polls but then Mrs Clinton (also in blue I believe) was said to have a 98% chance of winning. America has an eighteen month election cycle and at considerable expence: Britain will be done and dusted in six weeks – and no three month hand-over either if the unthinkable happens and Comrade Corbyn prevails. No need for posters asking whether you are man enough to vote for a woman, either. Yesterday – also – they broadcast on the Third, Choral Evensong from the Church of the Immaculate Conception, Dallas – is it Catholic? ; the web site which doesn’t say looks rather High Church – performing largely American music including some Horatio Parker – now there is an interesting composer for you.

  18. LawDog says:

    Here’s a question for Dalrock’s assorted readers, and in line with the article referenced above — do women have the ability to regret frivolously divorcing their boring first husbands, or are they really incapable of that? To me, it sounds like the women in the article linked above don’t really regret any decision, it’s more, “All these men out here are not doing what I want”, as opposed to “I made a bad decision in leaving my husband.”

    I suppose the broader question is whether or not women have any agency, i.e., can women really be “adults” in the sense that men are? I am coming around to the view that women aren’t really capable of adult-type behavior, and will pretty much always make whatever the most self-destructive choice is. In line with that thinking, I don’t think you can’t really blame these women — we live in a cultural environment where women cannot be protected from their inability to make good decisions. Claire, and millions more like her, are the result. Unless and until female choice is either seriously constrained, or totally done away with, women are going to continue making terrible, self-destructive choices.

  19. imnobody00 says:

    @Lawdog.

    Women are able to have agency if and only if:
    a) They are raised with strict moral standards (usually in a strict religious community).
    b) They are shamed when they do something wrong.
    c) They live with the consequences of their acts.

    The same is true about men.

    Traditional society used to understand that. Modern society applies b) and c) to men and none of them to women. Women are not taught to resist their sinful natural instincts (“Follow your bliss”), self-analyze (“it’s not my fault”). They are not shamed (“you go grrl”) or reap the consequences of their actions (free avortion, free divorce, alimony, child support). Without that, women behave with self-indulgence, like children. They don’t grow up. Men would be the same if they were given no restraint to their actions.

    I live in Central America. The older ladies (more than 55 year olds) raised in the traditional society are reasonable, mature, monogamous, sensible i compassive. The younger generation is a bunch of spoiled little girls but I still see some women raised in strict religious communities behaving with agency and reason.

  20. Rob says:

    If women aren’t good long-term partners, what else can they be to men but sex objects for today?

    If women won’t add value to a mans’ life in non-sexual ways (that would be demeaning), then we can only value them for sex.

    This works fine for young women. They have a high SMV and aren’t lonely. Given that the devil may care about tomorrow, a fall in their MMV means little to them. They can complain about that when they’re 35.

    But for old women, a low SMV and low MMV = misery. They should be wiser, being old and all. And many are. But for the unthinking, the siren song of an optimized life is too tempting.

    Who knows how many years the husband in this story endured a life of misery with a contemptuous non-wife. I’m sure he wished she would just be happy with her lot and be a decent wife.

    Good for him for ending a hopeless situation. And now he knows she left it all behind for a chance at an optimized life before and so would surely do it again if the opportunity ever arose. So, taking her back is an emasculating non-option. She tipped her hand and showed exactly who she is. Good luck to you husband-man…

  21. Rob says:

    Reed: “What I’ve found instead is that young men have been left high and dry without any real guidance whatsoever, and that women have been given all the tools and skills to navigate this new, post birth control SMP at the expense of men.”

    So true brother. Women are given life-strategy advice all over the place. On TV, from friends, from mom’s, etc, etc.

    We men – on the other hand – tend to bumble and stumble through life largely on our own. My dad is a great guy, but he prepared me zippo for how to deal with women. What to look for. What to avoid. When to have kids, or not. What the reality of marriage and divorce is…

    Every man’s choices will be unique, but hell, at least we should have some realistic view of the battlefield of life we’re playing on.

  22. MadamImAdam says:

    A 59 year old divorcee friend of ours dumped her 60+ year old boyfriend because he didn’t have the right kind of job and had the nerve to suggest they sleep together prior to marriage (gasp!). A few months later she met a guy on social media who was 14 years younger and in much better physical shape. He moved to our area and immediately moved in with her. Now he shuttles back and forth between here and other towns and between her and other women. He moves from job to job – none for more than a few months, and has a problem with alcohol. Nevertheless, because he gives her the tingles, she supports him financially and proceeds to cut off relationships with all her friends who warned her about the dangers of getting involved with the guy. The lesson is that there is always a man out there for these older women as long as they are willing to compromise on employment status, substance abuse, commitment, character, and loyalty.

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  24. Anonymous Reader says:

    OT this is the best meme I’ve seen so far from the last Berkeley street scene.
    Apologies in advance to those who are not gamers and might not get it.

    A similar meme could be built on top of an image of 50+ year old women sitting around a table with wine glasses in from of them: “Freedom from marriage: Unlocked”

  25. tweell says:

    Congratulations, ladies, welcome to the loser’s bracket of relationships. Those successful fit movers and shakers you feel you’re entitled to are inexplicably looking at younger prettier women. It’s sad, but your superior conversational skills appear to be trumped by the ability to have children.

    As a widower in that age group, I’m generally overlooked by these women. Clothing has a lot to do with it, when I was wearing office standard garb I was a lot more visible to them. It’s as if Carhartt’s is camouflage!

    MGTOW should consider this sort of camo, it has made my life a lot easier.

  26. tsotha says:

    My dad is a great guy, but he prepared me zippo for how to deal with women. What to look for. What to avoid. When to have kids, or not. What the reality of marriage and divorce is…

    I was thinking about this the other day in relation to my nephew. I don’t know if he ever will, but I’m wondering what I’ll say if he comes to me for advice. The big problem is if I lay out the truth, as I see it, his mother will be livid. That could have real consequences for my relationship with my brother. I’ll probably give it to him straight, anyway, but I understand why men don’t.

  27. feeriker says:

    We men – on the other hand – tend to bumble and stumble through life largely on our own. My dad is a great guy, but he prepared me zippo for how to deal with women. What to look for. What to avoid. When to have kids, or not. What the reality of marriage and divorce is…

    I think you’ll find that very nearly NONE of us had fathers who gave us any useful MMP/SMP advice or guidance – or any at all. And some of us came of age a LONG time ago, so this is a multi-generational problem.

    There are a wide variety of reasons for this. Some fathers are lazy. Others weren’t given any guidance by their own fathers and thus have no point of reference. Still others are alphas who can’t conceive of the need for such guidance. Some others came of age in generations long past in which the MMP and SMP weren’t the toxic minefields for men that they are today, and thus they also can’t relate to today’s problems and challenges facing their sons and grandsons. Others yet still are traumatized by their experiences even decades after the fact and can’t bear the thought of bringing up the past, even if their own sons’ lives and futures depend on it. Some fathers are, for God knows what conceivable reasons, envious or resentful of their sons and want them to fail. Finally –and this is probably by far the biggest category– some fathers are just clueless schlubs when it comes to marriage, sex, and women, guys who stumbled into marriage and family pretty much by accident in spite of themselves. They couldn’t even begin to tell their sons how they navigated the shark-infested cesspool that is the MMP/SMP, even if they had a loaded shotgun held to their heads with a gunman threatening to pull the trigger.

    Whatever the reason for it, the lack of paternal mentoring in this area, no matter the demographic, has had hideously destructive consequences.

  28. Yet Another Commenter, Yet Another Comment ("Yac-Yac") says:

    April 20, 2017 at 2:44 pm, Rob wrote:

    Women are given life-strategy advice all over the place. On TV, from friends, from mom’s, etc, etc.

    True, but, it is important to note that a lot of it is simply rubbish (i.e., not even merely bad, but actually terrible advice); and it is important to note that often it is rubbish on purpose — sabotage with a smile, as when her “best female friends” encourage her to do, or to continue doing, some stupid thing or other. (“Oh, girrrrl, you look just great with that short-short-shorthair-cut — sooo sexy …”, etc. — as if.)

    Men don’t do this. I mean, yeah: bad advice, sure — but that’s because the guy ‘advising’ himself thinks it’s good advice. In fact, “I’m so awesome, I have good advice to give” is a common AMOG behaviour.

    So, women get both kinds of bad advice: the intentionally bad, and the merely stupid. Maybe men actually are better off here: better no advice, than bad advice, IMHO.

  29. Yet Another Commenter, Yet Another Comment ("Yac-Yac") says:

    April 20, 2017 at 1:58 pm, LawDog asked:

    Here’s a question for Dalrock’s assorted readers, and in line with the article referenced above — do women have the ability to regret frivolously divorcing their boring first husbands, or are they really incapable of that? To me, it sounds like the women in the article linked above don’t really regret any decision, it’s more, “All these men out here are not doing what I want”, as opposed to “I made a bad decision in leaving my husband.”

    Well, I don’t know about this AWALT thing, but as an excellent general rule which might as well be “AWALT”, with women, it’s what image they project that matters. So, don’t confuse the appearance of non-regret (which would project, that she made a mistake and is a lose at love, life and so on), with regret. Booze or a bad day, or whatever, or if you’re a close relative and it’s a brief moment of vulnerability, … — and then the mask might slip, but for women otherwise, it’s quite important to factor in the acting, posing, posturing and projecting, whenever you try to get some sort of handle on what they’re actually up to.

    You can’t build a global ~quarter-trillion $$ industry on women’s indifference to the sort of show they’re putting on, leave aside the even bigglier fashion industry: so, the evidence is right there, how invested women are in the image they project. Just extend that principle to what they say …

  30. BillyS says:

    I am not sure women are really told how to effectively navigate things either. They do learn the media messages, but those are not necessarily good, as Dalrock regularly points out.

    It will take a crash before things will change.

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  32. Anonymous Reader says:

    tsotha
    I was thinking about this the other day in relation to my nephew. I don’t know if he ever will, but I’m wondering what I’ll say if he comes to me for advice. The big problem is if I lay out the truth, as I see it, his mother will be livid.

    Expalin this to your nephew: what is the first rule of Fight Club?
    Then proceed to fit him for The Glasses. I’m sure he knows how to keep a secret from his mother by now.

    @all
    Has anyone aggregated a collection of relevant quotes from the Bible on men, women, etc.?
    I’ve got a good collection of quotes from Proverbs. Other men have gone through Genesis and other books. It would be a good thing to have a pdf of relevant quotes to pass around, both for online use and IRL, in the churchgoing context.

  33. “Claire says: ‘I’d hoped to meet some decent men in their 50s, someone with whom I could enjoy a conversation or a meal out.’ ”

    A conversation? A meal?
    Lady, the maximum required courting period for any male operating on social media has been effectively slashed by 85%.

    Attempts to prolong, qualify and condition the exchange just drive buyers away.

    If you are not “easy to do business with”, then you lose.
    Thanks for playing.

  34. Frank K says:

    “My dad is a great guy, but he prepared me zippo for how to deal with women. What to look for. What to avoid.”

    I did have this chat with my son. I explained to him the pitfalls of carousel riders and other damaged women. It must have hit home as he broke up with his gf, who had anxiety issues. When we talked about her, before they broke up, I told him: Her issues are only going to get worse with time, not better. Be honest with yourself about whether or not you can live with this for the rest of your life.

    I also told him about the risks of modern marriage, where you can get stuck handing over more than half your paycheck to your ex for years, if not decades, and how the courts are biased against men when divorce is on the line. Plus how the odds of getting a divorce are about 50/50 and that for those who stay together only a minority are happy, and how wives initiate the overwhelming majority of divorces and that for the younger crowd the average marriage lasts about 8 years.

    It seems that he has taken this advice to heart, for which I am relieved. This might mean no grandchildren, but if his future ex-wife were to be granted full custody then there’s a very good chance I wouldn’t get be part of their lives anyway and like him only get to see them maybe once or twice a month; while hearing them tell us about mommy’s current bad boy boyfriend: “he has a cool motorcycle and tattoos, grandpa! He’s always asking mommy for money, cuz he doesn’t have a job.”

    So sad that it has come down to this, but it’s the reality of the situation.

  35. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    My father never advised me on women because it would have embarrassed him. He and my mother were born in the 1920s in rural eastern Europe. They immigrated to the U.S. (New York City) in the 1950s, and I was born in the 1960s. They had me late in life.

    My parents and I had a big generation gap (my mother was 41 when she had me), a big cultural gap (they were teenagers in 1930s/40s Europe, I was a teenager in 1970s NYC). They were religious and deeply embarrassed discussing sex. (My mother considered becoming a nun in her youth.) Neither ever discussed sex or dating.

    I learned about the man’s role in sex from a friend at school, in 7th grade, who got it from his older brother. (His parents were also Catholic, also deeply embarrassed discussing the subject, also never talked about it.) Until then, at age 12, I had no idea that men played a role in babies. I thought women just “got pregnant.”

    I learned how to behave toward women from 1970s TV sitcoms and movies. Which is where, I supposed, my friends also got their advice. Not the best source of advice. As I entered college in the 1980s, I was very Blue Pill, very into pedestalizing women.

  36. Frank K says:

    “A conversation? A meal?
    Lady, the maximum required courting period for any male operating on social media has been effectively slashed by 85%.”

    This makes me think of the so called “no haggle” new car dealerships who claim that that they post their best price! Just show up and you’ll be out the door lickety split with your new car!

    Of course, once you show up, they offer you a pittance for your trade in and try to strong arm you into buying pricey extended warranties and even pricier pre-paid service plans. During my last purchase, the scumbag in the finance office even told me that if I didn’t service the car with them that my warranty would be null and void. I called him out on his lie. Of course, they made sure we didn’t get into his office until it was nice and late, hoping that we would be tired and just cave in.

    Anyway, getting back on track, dating in this modern age makes me think of the experience above. They’ll try to reel you in with sex, but the ultimate goal is to get attached to your wallet like a remora. Just like a car dealer,

  37. Snowy says:

    @feeriker

    You’re spot on, as usual.

    My 85 year old Dad seems to be a admixture of all you identify, and more; beta schlub (definitely no alpha); 60’s flower child; mentally lazy; New Ager (read: Sensitive New Age Guy); dreamer (unrealistic, like a woman) – refuses to accept reality; indeed, the MMP and SMP weren’t the toxic minefield of today; he definitely cannot relate to today’s problems and challenges, though he might give lip service; (still) traumatised by his own life experiences, but refuses to acknowledge the fact, instead putting on the facade that all is well and rosy for him; certainly cannot bear the thought of talking about the past (especially when pressed), because that would upset his rosy SNAG, New Age facade; while he wouldn’t admit it, I believe he did indeed stumble into marriage and family, being trapped by my dear mother by impregnating her out of wedlock, and being hit with the shotgun wedding.

    Yet for all this, no warnings or guidance from him in these matters, because to do so would be for him to admit his mistakes, put down his rose-coloured glasses, and get real. I doubt he would respond to a shotgun held to his head, as you point out.

  38. Gunner Q says:

    LawDog @ 1:58 pm:
    “I suppose the broader question is whether or not women have any agency, i.e., can women really be “adults” in the sense that men are?”

    No. Women are natural born slaves. That’s not a bad thing; it’s how God designed them. It is, however, why the cuck’s furious efforts to emancipate women from men are vile. They force masculinity upon the feminine and give power to those who were never meant to wield it.

    “I don’t think you can’t really blame these women”

    Feel free to blame gov’t instead. Me, I don’t ever forgive betrayal no matter who does it. There are lines one does not cross, period.

    Rob @ 2:44 pm:
    “My dad is a great guy, but he prepared me zippo for how to deal with women.”

    Same here but I don’t hold it against him. He came of age in a very different world; you can’t teach what you never learned yourself.

  39. Spike says:

    The take-home message from this story: Be careful what you wish for ladies. You might just get it.

    You want your independence.
    I take it that means being able to have sex with whoever you want, whenever you want. Isn’t that called ”promiscuity”? Aren’t women who do this ”sluts”? So why do you want to be one?

    You want to ”find yourself after a long marriage”.
    I take it that means being able to travel the world and have sex with randoms in Third World countries, like Elizabeth Gilbert or Jenny Erikson.
    You want rich, but just damaged enough for you to ”fix” him, so that you can prove ”true love” exists.
    Don’t try. Plenty of prettier faces than you have tried. You aren’t going to fix him, he’s going to fix you. This isn’t Fifty Shades. It’s real life.

    Feminism is a tool of the rich elites to make you unhappy, so that you will spend money trying in vain to make yourself happy. You can try doubling down and taking the lesbian option, but that will send you to an early grave.

    Time to repent and confess.

  40. David J. says:

    This post seems appropriate for an update on my ex-wife’s status since blowing up our family in pursuit of the divorce fantasy 5+ years ago. (We’d been married nearly 29 years and had 4 kids. She was convinced she’d come out of the divorce with something like permanent alimony, lots of child support, and her attorney’s fees. She ended up with essentially what I’d warned her she’d get: a low amount of alimony for a short time, child support according to the state’s formula (and less than the proportion she expected because she screwed up with our son and he chose to live with me 100% of the time), and no attorney’s fees.) Lo and behold, she began dating online immediately, found a candidate within 3 weeks, and married him a year later. Consistent with all that Dalrock has written and the scenarios described in the Mail article above, he was available because he was older than, already twice-divorced (having cheated on the first wife with the second wife and having been physically abusive to the second wife), and lived in a depressed rural area hundreds of miles away in a different state. I gave them two years before she was on her own again. It’s now been a little over 4 years, but they haven’t lived together for the last 2 — she lives 400 miles away from him (and just bought her own house instead of continuing to rent), ostensibly so she can have a job that offers health insurance that she needs and he apparently can’t or won’t provide. They still see each other occasionally, but it’s obviously a screwed up marriage. She’s had numerous health problems and shares her house with her father, her brother (who also has health and mental problems from years of drug and alcohol abuse), and our daughter — who struggles with anxiety and anger because of the stressful home environment. My daughter looks forward to time with me for rest and peace. If/when the formal divorce comes, my ex will be in her late 50’s, saddled with obligations and health problems, and no catch at all, not to mention no apparent change in her character or attitude. Her retirement will consist of Social Security and my special needs daughter’s SSI. All in all, the stereotypical anti-advertisement for the middle-aged woman’s divorce fantasy.

    On the other hand, God has provided for me. I deliberately avoided any dating for more than 4 years until my youngest son was out of high school and on to college. I relocated to a western state where my parents, sisters, and numerous other relatives live. I survived the child support/alimony stage and am putting my finances back together. I’ve been courting a lovely, somewhat younger woman from my church who was raised on a dairy farm in a strong Christian home and conservative church, in both of which she imbibed and adhered to traditional husband/wife roles. She is only divorced because her ex-husband cheated on her at least twice and, upon being confronted with church discipline the second time around, insisted on a divorce. She too has a disabled child and has demonstrated her character in caring for him essentially single-handedly for almost 20 years. I expect to marry her next year and get started on showing my kids what a genuinely good, Christian marriage looks like.

  41. Splashman says:

    @feeriker, I had one of those dads, too. He was extremely intelligent and well-educated, very high-achieving and aggressive. I learned some very valuable lessons from him, mostly about problem-solving and getting things done. But he taught me zilch about the most important things in life, because he didn’t know them himself.

    Though I don’t dwell on it much, I hold that against him, because despite his own father’s cluelessness, he could have learned along the way, just as I have. He could have tuned in to his own shortcomings (which were many) and worked on them, just as I have, but he didn’t. And that led to the same shortcomings being passed down another generation. The only way the cycle ends is when one of us accepts the difficult, thankless task of clawing our way out of the pit, inch by inch.

    Whatever the reason for it, the lack of paternal mentoring in this area, no matter the demographic, has had hideously destructive consequences.

    Indeed. Well said.

  42. Snowy says:

    @Splashman

    Yep, it’s definitely generational. Somewhere along the line, the cycle must be broken. While it’s unfortunate that I’ve had to repeat many of my Dad’s errors and shortcomings, at the end of the day it’s up to us to see the cycle for what it is and take steps to end it. I’ve had to say to myself, “No, I don’t want to be like Dad; I don’t want to remain in ignorance; I want to break the cycle.” In many aspects of life.

  43. CSI says:

    I bet the majority of messages these ladies get are actually fairly chaste. Its just the minority of lewd ones tend to stick in their memories, leading to an observer bias that they are being bombarded by crude invitations to fuck. Which is why men send them – to stand out from the opposition.

  44. Reede says:

    @ Rob, freeriker

    My father falls into the alpha who never had issues category. He was also born in 1941 and raised old-school: you married, had your kids, and worked your ass off to give them whatever you could. (Un?)fortunately for my father, he was the kind of guy who just got female attention without trying, and as a result always wound up philandering and pissing off his women, and fathering kids he didn’t intend to father (including me when he was 50, mom was 30). Things have changed so much between the 60s and now that any advice he gave me just doesn’t apply to the women of today.

  45. Reede says:

    PS he was always a fan of the dreaded comb-over. It worked for him because of his overall looks but outside of the Fallout series it just looks weird.

  46. Samuel Culpepper says:

    What is the point for a christian man to be dating at 50? No man is going to find a marriageable woman at that age . . . they’re all divorced or banged up. If you found a virgin, she would be fat and weird and way past child bearing years so what is the point? I suppose you might find a widow that has had (truly) only one husband, but I suspect that is exceedingly rare.

  47. feeriker says:

    Samuel Culpepper says:
    April 20, 2017 at 9:54 pm

    Generalize much?

    Some of us here would tell you, from our own personal experience, that you need to get out (as in WAAAAY out – as in to another country “out”) more often.

  48. feeriker says:

    Snowy says:
    April 20, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    Wow, man. Sorry to hear that!

    Your post makes me want to turn my original post into a checklist, if for no other reason than to see how many of those traits my own dad had. At a minimum, I know he wasn’t given any guidance by my grandfather, who had all the warmth and charisma of a fire hydrant (Dad found some somwhere; Mom wouldn’t hsve married him and stayed with him for 53 years otherwise). My dad would be the same age as your dad if he were still living, so he also couldn’t relate to today’s problems and challenges facing men in the MMP (that generation, the so-called “Silent Generation,” is/was, for some reason, particularly concrete dense when it comes to grasping today’s realities). He was also very impatient, and I remember having to practically beg and/or bludgeon him to get information or words of wisdom out of him on any subject.

    So many fathers, even –especially– ones who consider themselves Christian, seem to think that it’s “not their job” to teach their sons the things that men need to know to survive in the world when, in fact, it is their PRIMARY job as fathers. God is going to have some things to say to them about that one day.

  49. PeterW. says:

    SC.

    If I, at 52 am a virgin, but not fat and only mildly weird…… why should I not hope to find my counterpart?
    Or why shouldn’t I consider marrying a younger woman?

    Just curious….

  50. Splashman says:

    So many fathers, even –especially– ones who consider themselves Christian, seem to think that it’s “not their job” to teach their sons the things that men need to know to survive in the world when, in fact, it is their PRIMARY job as fathers.

    Yep. To my dad’s way of thinking, sending us kids to an expensive Christian school was going above-and-beyond as a father, and that was pretty much the extent of his fathering. I think back to how many life lessons I’ve had to learn the hard way, and how ignorant I was for so many years, and I think, “It didn’t have to be this way.”

    God is going to have some things to say to them about that one day.

    Most certainly. Of course, he’s going to have a few things to say to me, too, and that is one of several motivations for me as father.

  51. Frank K says:

    @Samuel Culpepper – “What is the point for a christian man to be dating at 50?”

    I agree. When I tell people this, they ask “why?”. When I say that I cannot marry a divorced woman, because according to my beliefs I would be sleeping with another man’s wife, I get the most incredulous stares, especially from the Churchian types.

    That, plus the fact that, should I suddenly find myself a widower and even if I could find an eligible woman my age that I would find attractive, she is almost certain to bring lots of baggage into the marriage, starting with her own kids. It seems that every remarried couple I have met has issues with the adult step children: they need money, they’re unemployed, they need to move in, etc. And that’s only the beginning.

    No thanks, I’ll pass.

  52. Frank K says:

    “If I, at 52 am a virgin, but not fat and only mildly weird…… why should I not hope to find my counterpart?
    Or why shouldn’t I consider marrying a younger woman?”

    If you can find one who can put her smartphone down for 5 minutes, has an N=0 and finds you attractive, then good for you.

  53. Frank K says:

    That should read “N=0”. Also, while were hunting for a unicorn, she’s attractive (not fat), she’s not divorced and has no kids, and agrees that you are the head of the household.

    I’m sure there are single women in their late 30’s to early 40’s like that out there. I’ve just never met one,

  54. Frank K says:

    OK why is this thing replacing zero with a lower case “o’?

  55. Luke says:

    PeterW. says:
    April 20, 2017 at 10:58 pm
    “SC.

    If I, at 52 am a virgin, but not fat and only mildly weird…… why should I not hope to find my counterpart?”

    99.99999% of 52-YO American women are either nonvirginal or have seriously less than zero interest in sex with a nonalpha (e.g., any 52-YO male). Even after a marriage ceremony, they will have negligible to negative interest in sex with any man that would marry them. Why in Hades pay full price for anything that’s used-to-the-end-of-its-useful-life, that you probably can’t even get to use much? It would make no sense.

  56. Splashman says:

    Frank, it’s not a lower-case “o”. This font features “text figures”, as opposed to “lining figures”. Here’s what all the numerals look like: 0123456789

  57. Hmm says:

    Dal,

    Good stuff as usual. One quibble: I think you read too much into Claire’s “Bye, then.” You say. “she tells us that he left her after she made it clear that she didn’t want to remain married to him.” I’m not sure she made it clear to him before he walked out – it could as easily have been him deciding to leave her (others have speculated on reasons).

    But she certainly made it clear to him at the time he left.

  58. Bart says:

    Peter W. –
    I sincerely hope the the best for you. I’m sure there are a few virgin (or honorable widows) women out there in their 30s. They might be a little weird, but a little weird is OK.

  59. Dalrock says:

    @CSI

    I bet the majority of messages these ladies get are actually fairly chaste. Its just the minority of lewd ones tend to stick in their memories, leading to an observer bias that they are being bombarded by crude invitations to fuck. Which is why men send them – to stand out from the opposition.

    That could be. But either way, what is killing her is the message men are sending her about her own SMP standing. If these messages were from a man she found sexy (think Tom Brady in the SNL skit), they would be welcome. But these messages are coming from men she is (or was) sure were way beneath her league. The message is that no, in fact, they are in reality above her league for a LTR, and she is only in their league as a F* buddy. If she were receiving “chaste” messages from attractive men, then the lewd ones would be a mere nuisance. But to the extent that she is getting chaste messages, the nature of the senders is only reinforcing the message of the lewd ones: Her SMP stock has fallen, and it can’t get up.

  60. Dalrock says:

    @Hmm

    Good stuff as usual. One quibble: I think you read too much into Claire’s “Bye, then.” You say. “she tells us that he left her after she made it clear that she didn’t want to remain married to him.” I’m not sure she made it clear to him before he walked out – it could as easily have been him deciding to leave her (others have speculated on reasons).

    But she certainly made it clear to him at the time he left.

    She and the Mail are walking a fine line here. The story is that she isn’t to blame for the split, but that had she known the realities of the SMP she would have tried to keep her marriage together. She didn’t do anything wrong, but she regrets what she did and wishes she had done the right thing instead. From the title of the article:

    Claire regrets not fighting for her marriage because she was tempted by the ‘eligible’ men

    Moreover, they make it clear that she was unhaaaapy being married:

    While she loved her husband, like most couples in long marriages, she felt they had become a little staid and set in their ways. Their sex life was hardly the firework display of their 20s, and sometimes she’d look over at this snoring, paunchy, greying man on the other side of the bed and wonder: ‘Is this it?’

    How does the saying go? If momma ain’t happy, nobody’s happy! If you want to assume that she was unhappy being married and convinced she could get a better man, but was being a sweet, loving wife, I can’t prove you wrong. But I certainly am not going to make such an assumption. Moreover, she strongly implies that she could have acted differently to avoid the split, had she only known what her real SMP situation was.

  61. Gunner Q says:

    “If I, at 52 am a virgin, but not fat and only mildly weird…… why should I not hope to find my counterpart?”

    Because sex is no longer an urgent need, you’d have to retool your entire adult life & habits to make room for a wife and you probably have 35 years of being rejected by women to overcome in addition to the specific reasons you were unattractive in the first place.

    At that point, just get a dog. Let the horny younger men have the docile virgins.

  62. “Gunner Q says:
    April 20, 2017 at 6:05 pm

    “I don’t think you can’t really blame these women”

    Feel free to blame gov’t instead. Me, I don’t ever forgive betrayal no matter who does it. There
    are lines one does not cross, period.”

    Totally agree with you, which is why men nowadays should NEVER believe the women who say that they are “not feminists” or “against feminism”. There were NONE of these ‘non-feminists’ or “not a feminist” types to be found — that is, not until after men began rejecting marriage and relationships, and started actively being vociferous about it.

  63. Höllenhund says:

    Because, though dating sites offer the prospect of meeting thousands of men, the power dynamic has shifted once you’re an older woman.

    That’s a pretty shitty mindset right there.

    “Women’s liberation, if not the most extreme then certainly the most influential neo-Marxist movement in America, has done to the American home what communism did to the Russian economy, and most of the ruin is irreversible. By defining relations between men and women in terms of power and competition instead of reciprocity and cooperation, the movement tore apart the most basic and fragile contract in human society, the unit from which all other social institutions draw their strength.” – Ruth Wisse

  64. “someone with whom I could enjoy a conversation or a meal out.”

    You mean, someone like your husband?

  65. john smith says:

    These idiot post-wall narcissists need a theme song. I suggest “One Less Egg to Fry” sung by the incomparable Marilyn McCoo. She laments that her man had left her, how empty her life has become, and how she can’t get over it. In the agony of her solitude she wails, screams, and bleeds the line:

    “I end each day the way I start out, crying my heart out”.

    The song is terrific and her crescendo ranks up there with Sarah Brightman screaming in perfect pitch soprano on “Angel of Music” and Clare Torry wailing for what seems forever on “The Great Gig in the Sky”. Check it out. Cheers.

  66. anonymous_ng says:

    Ms. Halsall is a little bit younger than I am. I wouldn’t give her the time of day.

    Shortly after I divorced, I dated a woman just turning 40. A few years later, I saw a picture of her and her girlfriends out at a formal dinner, and all I could think was “What a bunch of ugly, manly women.”

    She said that she’s looking for a man who is a business owner, or corporate management. That man unless he’s truly repulsive can do better. In the US, he would generally be able to pull a steady stream of divorced soccer moms and twice on Sunday.

    Whether women ever regret their chosing to divorce their husbands. I would say no. My ex is doing demonstrably worse, but I can’t imagine a scenario where she would realize that she chose poorly.

  67. Jim says:

    Shortly after I divorced, I dated a woman just turning 40. A few years later, I saw a picture of her and her girlfriends out at a formal dinner, and all I could think was “What a bunch of ugly, manly women.”

    She said that she’s looking for a man who is a business owner, or corporate management.

    *smh* Dumb bitch. She’s 40 and she thinks she can make the same demands on men like she did when she was 18-22? Does that idiot really think some wealthy guy is going to go after dried, used, 40 year old pussy? I’m not surprised really because I’ve seen this myself but how stupid can you be?

  68. anonymous_ng says:

    Ah, Jim, I wrote poorly. Ms Halsall from the article is 49 and looking for a business owner or corporate drone.

  69. BillyS says:

    So Samuel, are you staying single for the rest of your life? Who signed you up as the one who decides for other men what they can and must do?

    I may end up staying single the rest of my life, but I may also take risks you would not. Why are you the authority to decide that for me?

  70. Frank K says:

    “So Samuel, are you staying single for the rest of your life? Who signed you up as the one who decides for other men what they can and must do?”

    When did he say that? All he did was make a case for it being pointless. And he makes a good case, given that the pool of “eligible” women for 50 something year old men consists overwhelmingly of divorced women who are for the most part ineligible for marriage.

    In the end you are a free agent and the choice is yours. Choose wisely.

  71. Mega says:

    Interesting food for thought here … nothing really that new from the OP … sorry Dal … its stuff many in the sphere have know for a long time … at least I did. No, the interesting bit of food for thought was so many men relating the same thought … THEIR fathers did nothing to prepare them how to deal with women … because they themselves really didn’t know. YET … those very men (our fathers and grandfathers) … did indeed … marry, have wives, children … larger families … too … for FAR longer periods … in most cases for life. So clueless about the true nature of women yet VASTLY MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN CURRENT MEN ARE. Hmmmm. I would argue that THEIR fathers (great grandfathers … and so on) … had the same level of success and same level of cluelessness. Going back … centuries. Why ?

    Because it wasn’t needed, obviously. Somewhere across the centuries of human history … our culture … and specifically men … FORGOT how evil women can be. And, yes, the Bible gives us a clue … but in my mind … understates things or states them in ways that are difficult to grasp … not uncommon in the Bible, unfortunately. You could see how offensive it would be if the Bible came straight out and said: Women are EVIL and if you don’t keep their true natures bottled up and controlled they will destroy society.

    Obviously men didn’t have to deal with Hypergamy … because it was bottled up. And once unleashed … it literally has taken decades for us to realize the damage it does.

    So … begs for some serious thought. We’ve discussed some of what changed in the Manosphere and some are obvious … like the Right to Vote for women … who will always use that vote to benefit OTHER WOMEN as well as Children … MENS WELFARE AIN”T ON THEIR LIST. Stuff like the Pill and free state sponsored abortion on demand. A legal system hijacked to FAVOR WOMEN OVER MEN. Discrimination against men in jobs, careers, education. Attack and destruction of the family unit. All brought about by Feminism, Liberalism, and its takeover of society.

    The issue now because … what do we do about it ? Is anything possible to right the ship ? Education for boys … SEEMS LIKE A NO BRAINER … is anyone doing that ? Seems like it would be difficult to do … even mainstream organizations have been hijacked by liberals … even things like the Boy Scouts … now admits girls … the liberal nonsense never ends … and just gets worse (http://www.christianpost.com/news/if-girls-can-be-boy-scouts-what-does-that-make-the-boy-scouts-174084/).

    In case anyone here doesn’t know it … anyone on the Political right (conservative) is under direct attack right now … especially anyone in the media. Facebook, youtube, twitter are banning people, restricting the ability of them to get their message out, their ability to make money, etc. Scary times. I can just see the Left going ape shit if men started a grass roots efforts to teach boys and young men … how to be men. How the world really works, the true nature of women, etc. Doesn’t even have to have political over tones … just say you are going to teach boys how not to be destroyed by women or survive in a society set out to destroy you and the libtards would stop at nothing to shut it down.

    So again … is there anything that can be done … or is it too late ? I know some men … say teach your children … and that is great for your family. But … unfortunately there are countless millions of boys being destroyed in single mother households … or in households inhabited by clueless blue pill men who are still inside the Matrix. In the big picture … teaching a few Christian boys is going to do nothing to right the ship.

    ?????

  72. Gunner Q says:

    Mega @ 1:04 pm:
    “Somewhere across the centuries of human history … our culture … and specifically men … FORGOT how evil women can be.”

    Nothing sinister about it. Western gov’t (aka the System) kept women in line for a long time. It did so as a benefit to unsexy men; their status was raised by such (artificial) institutions as monogamy and paternal custody, making them desirable enough to have a family. But people got used to the mechanics of the System while gradually forgetting why the System did what it did. Now that the System has crashed, we have had to rediscover & rebuild from first principles and now find the halls of power occupied by the Devil’s whores. Again.

    It’s human nature to forget the why. Teaching us the “why” is arguably the only reason God subjects us to this fallen mortal life at all.

    “So again … is there anything that can be done … or is it too late?”

    Your focus is wrong. There is nothing you personally can do about global events of any kind; therefore, it is not your fault. That is for God to orchestrate. God’s will for the average Christian is simply to live quietly and earn your food. 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12.

    Feminism is a flaw in the human soul; there is no cure short of death. Besides, if feminism wasn’t our problem then it’d be disease, or natural disasters, or Berkeley getting the Bomb. It’s not like we’re a couple executive decisions short of Peace on Earth.

    ” In the big picture … teaching a few Christian boys is going to do nothing to right the ship.”

    In the big picture, nothing in reality will survive except human souls. Teach one boy right from wrong and you have saved an immortal from eternal torment. What is more important than mentoring a literal son of God Almighty when he’s young and vulnerable? Money? Safety? Being remembered in all the history books marked for burning?

    You are destined to outlive your country. You are destined to outlive the stars in the sky. So is that pencil-necked dork sitting next to you on the bus. I would rather preserve that one dork’s soul than the U.S. Constitution. America is a good nation, the best there ever was, but it was never going to last forever.

  73. Tipsy says:

    There’s one thing that these middle aged divorcee’s never think about. Any man who meets them now will remember them as middle aged. Their ex-husbands, however, still retain the image of them when they first met.

    I still see the beautiful 26 yo I married 21 years ago when I look at my wife.

  74. Chad says:

    I commented on this article on another site that this should be required reading for daughters. But really it should be read, and then broken down, for daughters wives and sons.

    I too had a dad who gave me zero instruction and was ruled by the woman he married. My mother later divorced him because he wasn’t “man enough” to keep my brother from being gay (Among other reasons but none were his fidelity). I think about my father at what he couldn’t communicate effectively a lot – since I started reading sites like this one five years ago. I had already married a woman who has personality traits similar to my mother. Made some positive changes in those five years, and more to come. Would be interesting to see who I ended up with if I were mentored a bit more by a guy who knew what was up.

    Finally, thought the group might think this counterpoint story was interesting. Divorce porn: the quest continues!
    http://www.scarymommy.com/i-love-my-husband-but-getting-divorced/

  75. @feeriker
    I agree. Most fathers out there (easily 80%) are empty when it comes to solid advice and guidance about women, sexual relationships, attractiveness and sexual marketplace dynamics.

    I used to believe too that this was mostly due to generational ignorance of men, or human laziness.

    But I’ve come to realize another side, that for many decades, young men consistently received and internalized only “gyno-approved” advice about women, relationships, sex and marriage……from women!
    Especially from their own mothers, but also teachers, aunts, grandmothers, to some degree.

    One would expect advice from women about women to be of greater value to young men.
    Except its not valuable. Not because women are incompetent about women. No, the opposite is true – Women understand women. And they hate each other.

    Moms love us differently and unconditionally as young lads. Normally she’s protective of us. But what gets in her way is this ingrained need to align with and compete with the Sisterhood.
    Moms want improved social status (to be a “grandma”) and all of the attention and validation and genetic success markers that come with it.
    Ths is a very strong want among mothers of sons, especially.

    My theory is that the moms, a major source of most advice young men receive about women and sex, is not going to disclose the intellectual property on how women operate in sexual relationships, what to look out for, what to guard himself against, because doing so may adversely affect her realization of future grandmother status and notoriety.

    I remember my own mother making the comment to me and my brothers when we were in our teens that she was afraid of us boys marrying a woman who would divorce us.
    Her preoccupation in this scenario, however, had nothing to do with our own well being or emotional or financial annihilation as ex-husbands and fathers.
    No.
    Her worst nightmare was actually that our ex-wives would ” take my grandchildren away so that I could never see them again!”.

    She loves us. It’s a strong, instinctual love. But any advice or guidance is going to be biased, and not in a good way.

  76. Dave says:

    Whether women ever regret their choosing to divorce their husbands. I would say no. My ex is doing demonstrably worse, but I can’t imagine a scenario where she would realize that she chose poorly.

    I think their lack of regret is probably a form of defense mechanism. Accepting they are wrong could bring catastrophic psychological torture, knowing fully well that the die is cast, and the situation cannot be reversed. Many of them have not only destroyed their marriages, they have hopped into bed with another hairy, snoring, balding beta.
    So, the only acceptable option is to create a narrative that justifies the bad decision, and look for others to join in the misery. That is why divorced women tend to go on crusades to encourage other women to do the same.
    Occasionally though, at unguarded moments, the truth has a way of slipping out, with resulting deep regrets over what used to be.
    In my opinion, feminism is the cruelest invention ever developed against society.

  77. Scanman says:

    “*smh* Dumb bitch. She’s 40 and she thinks she can make the same demands on men like she did when she was 18-22? Does that idiot really think some wealthy guy is going to go after dried, used, 40 year old pussy? I’m not surprised really because I’ve seen this myself but how stupid can you be?”

    Shake your head all you want, odds are the 40+ year old skank finds a thirsty dude to wife her up. I’ve seen it too many times to believe the opposite.

    45 year old divorcee from my Hume with 3 school age kids just got engaged to the CFO of a major regional health care center in my area.

    He’s a handsome, socially savvy 40 year old, and believe me… she looks every bit of 45 and then some. She must be uber sweet and traditional, right. Nope. Chubby go grrrl with tats and momitude.

    Many beasts are sticking the landing. Sorry but that’s reality.

  78. Frank K says:

    “Many beasts are sticking the landing. Sorry but that’s reality.”

    The only ones I’ve observed “sticking the landing” are the very good looking ones. Not saying that an occasional fuggo doesn’t, but I’ve met plenty of those and they are mostly flying solo.

  79. Gunner Q says:

    “He’s a handsome, socially savvy 40 year old, and believe me… she looks every bit of 45 and then some. She must be uber sweet and traditional, right. Nope. Chubby go grrrl with tats and momitude.”

    There’s got to be more to that story. Attractive men simply don’t choose older cougars with other mens’ children over a young, hot chick, if they even bother to marry at all. It’s the difference between steak and used gum scraped off the sidewalk.

  80. Frank K says:

    @Gunner – “There’s got to be more to that story. Attractive men simply don’t choose older cougars with other mens’ children over a young, hot chick, if they even bother to marry at all.”

    Agreed, Whenever I encounter men like that, their wives are younger and very attractive, as opposed to what you would expect to find in the personals section on Craig’s list.

  81. Mineter says:

    Most women (99.99%,NAWALT), really don’t “get” it. IF they realise that >40, their SMV and MMV are, essentially, worthless, they rarely make the necessary mental jump that is required from “dang, I don’t have any other realistic options if I chose to end my marriage” to “dang, how do I ensure that my husband doesn’t choose one of his available options instead of staying with me?”.

    The husband goggles effect is real. Most men will reward loyalty with the same (and for those women marrying bad boys and cads, what did they realistically expect?).

    A man who is well fed at home will rarely seek a meal elsewhere, if at all. (And certainly not take away, or junk food…)

  82. Spike says:

    Off topic warning, but a good summary of feminism.
    Basically, she’s admitting to the screw-up:

  83. Anon says:

    Many beasts are sticking the landing. Sorry but that’s reality.

    Unfortunately, yes. This does happen. It is not very common, but not all that rare either. Some men are willing to buy a bridge in Brooklyn.

    We should have no sympathy for these men at this point. In 2017, if a man still has no clue despite the vast amount of high-quality red-pill content online, he is not worthy of sympathy (and is probably a mangina himself).

    In 2008, fine, a man could be forgiven for not knowing that is SMV could be higher than women allow him to believe, but here in 2017, he is just a loser who could not be schooled.

  84. Höllenhund says:

    Claire of course didn’t ditch her boring loyal dude in hopes of finding her secret multimillionaire hunky handyman; instead she tells us that he left her after she made it clear that she didn’t want to remain married to him:

    “Yeah, I’m now divorced, man. How did it happen, you’re asking? Well, it’s not like I was looking for someone better and younger. I just told her I didn’t want to be married to her anymore. And then she just, like, walked out! Can you imagine that?! I was so shocked and hurt!”

    Claire says: ‘I’d hoped to meet some decent men in their 50s, someone with whom I could enjoy a conversation or a meal out.

    I guess “someone richer, taller, more handsome and younger-looking than my lame-ass old ex” is definitely not her idea of “decent”. Nah, that couldn’t possibly be the case.

    this snoring, paunchy, greying man on the other side of the bed

    …as opposed to her, who’s obviously still a hot, fertile woman with firm, non-saggy tits and butt.

    One of the most brutal hallmarks of older women’s declining SMP power is how open men are about seeing them as good for a quick lay, but not worthy of investment/commitment.

    Someone should gently explain to women that an old, infertile woman seeking commitment is the equivalent of a young, unemployed man seeking commitment.

  85. Höllenhund says:

    Western gov’t (aka the System) kept women in line for a long time. It did so as a benefit to unsexy men; their status was raised by such (artificial) institutions as monogamy and paternal custody, making them desirable enough to have a family.

    I see this nonsense repeated all around the ‘sphere, even by supposedly redpilled men. It’s 100% bullshit. Women weren’t kept in line in order to benefit unsexy men, they were kept in line in order to benefit their children, by creating communities where stable, two-parent households were the norm, and they were kept in line for their own good. Nobody was seeking to benefit unsexy men. They weren’t even on anyone’s radar. They were merely tolerated and manipulated, as long as the system could use them.

  86. Höllenhund says:

    Women are able to have agency if and only if:
    a) They are raised with strict moral standards (usually in a strict religious community).
    b) They are shamed when they do something wrong.
    c) They live with the consequences of their acts.

    The same is true about men.

    Traditional society used to understand that. Modern society applies b) and c) to men and none of them to women. Women are not taught to resist their sinful natural instincts (“Follow your bliss”), self-analyze (“it’s not my fault”). They are not shamed (“you go grrl”) or reap the consequences of their actions (free avortion, free divorce, alimony, child support). Without that, women behave with self-indulgence, like children. They don’t grow up. Men would be the same if they were given no restraint to their actions.

    I’m not certain about that. Hypergamy and competition between men will always be present. These put a natural limit on any male self-indulgence. As a man, you have no choice but to learn to control your impulses. The same doesn’t apply to women, because their impulses are more difficult to trigger. Plus, men create moral codes on their own all the time, if they are able to form their own social groups. Even criminal gangs have moral codes. Women are different in that regard. They don’t usually think and act in terms of morality. They lack an innate sense of morality in the first place, because it’s not necessary for pregnancy and childrearing.

  87. Ray Manta says:

    Höllenhund says:
    Nobody was seeking to benefit unsexy men.

    Right, “alphaing-up” unsexy men was a necessary part of what was formerly done to benefit women, children, and the social order.

    They lack an innate sense of morality in the first place, because it’s not necessary for pregnancy and childrearing.

    Men provide a buffer zone that largely shields women from the consequences of their decisions. So there’s not much selection pressure to develop the type of morality that comes naturally to men.

  88. Splashman says:

    @Chad:

    I too had a dad who gave me zero instruction and was ruled by the woman he married. My mother later divorced him because he wasn’t “man enough” to keep my brother from being gay (Among other reasons but none were his fidelity). I think about my father at what he couldn’t communicate effectively a lot – since I started reading sites like this one five years ago. I had already married a woman who has personality traits similar to my mother. Made some positive changes in those five years, and more to come. Would be interesting to see who I ended up with if I were mentored a bit more by a guy who knew what was up.

    I, too, married a reasonable facsimile of my clueless mother, due to my own complete cluelessness. *sigh*

  89. Opus says:

    Claire wanted to meet a man in his fifties with whom she could enjoy conversation and meals out and presumably at his expence – What then does she bring to the table?

    Last night I was talking with a friend of mine and his twenty-something son and the son was explaining how his twenty-one-year-old sister was dating a man aged fifty-three – the same age as Claire. What I enquired did she see in the man: the answer was wealth including a number of up-market motor-cars to which she had access. I observed that twenty-one-year-old males are unlikely to have what the sister’s male friend had to offer. I failed to add that in addition to meals out and conversation (if any) that they will be indulging in hot and quite possibly procreative sex. If the sexes were reversed as sometimes they are the woman would be paying for the man but no family can result. Good looking young women (I can think of another good looking female I know who dates a wealthy and somewhat older man) can choose whom they want. My friend’s unemployed son is involved with an equally impoverished young American. I can’t see that ever going anywhere; hard to blame the sister for utilising her looks and youth.

  90. Otto Lamp says:

    @Höllenhund,

    “Western gov’t (aka the System) kept women in line for a long time. It did so as a benefit to unsexy men; their status was raised by such (artificial) institutions as monogamy and paternal custody, making them desirable enough to have a family.”

    There’s a reason polygamy was eventually rejected by almost every culture in the world. Widespread polygamy meant large numbers of men who had no hope of marrying and forming families. That’s a problem for any society. Historically, then handled it by:

    1) Outlawing polygamy
    2) Maintaining large standing armies (Rome)
    3) Having large numbers of slave (Greece, Islam)

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

    Check the nations that didn’t eliminate slavery till the latter half of the 20th century. It’s not a coincidence that they are all Muslim countries that allow and promote polygamy. Nor is it a coincidence that slavery is rearing is ugly head again in fundamentalist Muslim / ISIS dominated areas (like Libya).

    The system was less about “keeping women in line” than it was about limiting women’s options (like being the 2nd wife or concubine to a rich man) to ensure every man had a wife (and thus keep the men in line). A married man with a family is easier to control than a single man with no hope and nothing to lose.

    The system is breaking down, because women now have options. They don’t need a husband as they did in the past, so we’re back to the problem of have large numbers of men without hope of marrying or forming a family.

  91. Jonadab-the-Rechabite says:

    You all may regret that your father did not teach you the nature of women and how to navigate the feminist minefields. But, you really can’t expect your dad to tell you that your mom is a c$#t. Most men will suffer in silence than intentionally harm a child’s relationship with their mother. The days of C.W. McClintock are passed, men can no longer straighten out a insubordinate wife with appropriate correction or spank their uppity date. Most older men are just trying to survive the happy wife happy life firing squad.

  92. PeterW. says:

    Otto Lamp….

    Marriage was not “invented” to keep women in line. Violence does that perfectly adequately. You only have to look at the failure of feminism in every country where men refuse to accept it.

    Polygamy does not have a major problem with young men as long as those same young men are kept occupied and a wife is held out as the reward for risky behaviour on for the benefit of society. Islam is a classic example, because the doctrine is explicitly spelled out in the Koran. Men are commanded to fight the “infidels”. Those who die fighting are promised instant access to paradise and lots of sex. Those who survive are promised loot, wives and slaves – the female portion of which can be used for whatever purposes their master desires.

  93. 2Ms says:

    I’m a 41 year old divorced mom.

    In my case- divorce was his choice. I can accept my role in the marriage ending – it wasn’t sex, love or affection as we had both for a long time. I failed to understand how things in his life (business failing + physical issues) were emasculating him- then failed to build him up from my side. Failed at being a soft place to land when things were hard. In the end he found another woman.

    Being in the dating market again is not easy- I was with my ex for 20 years. When he left I knew the odds of finding someone were slim. Very few men would want a 39 year old mom.

    While it can be lonely- I am ok with being single. I have a good life and am content in it. I do not expect a man to want to commit- but I also do not engage in casual flings. I don’t feel that either person (myself or a man) should be in something where their needs are not being met.

    The difference is in what we (older single/divorced women) expect when we split. If I had divorced thinking that I would find another then I would be pretty disappointed now.

  94. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Why no great women artists? — aka, sexism in the arts: http://www.artsprofessional.co.uk/magazine/article/unequal-art-world

    From 2011 to 2016, just two in 100 of the top lots sold by living artists at auction were works by women. Of 2,300 artworks in the National Gallery, only 20 are by women, and none of the top ten richest living artists in the world are women.

    In the UK, Whitechapel Gallery does about the best, with 40% of its solo exhibitions being by women, followed by Tate Modern at 25%. In the US, the female representation for solo exhibition figures are around 20% for MoMA, The Whitney and The Guggenheim in New York and LACMA in Los Angeles. Permanent collection figures are even worse, with just 7% of the work at MoMA being by women in 2015, up from 4% in 2004….

    In 2015 German painter Georg Baselitz told The Guardian: “The market doesn’t lie. Even though the painting classes in art academies are more than 90% made up by women, it’s a fact that very few of them succeed. If women are ambitious enough to succeed, they can do so… But up until now, they have failed to prove that they want to.

  95. feeriker says:

    If women are ambitious enough to succeed, they can do so… But up until now, they have failed to prove that they want to.”

    Words of pure gold that can be applied to any field of endeavor. The caveat, however, is that in some fields (e.g., soldier, firefighter, pilot) women will NEVER succeed, no matter how hard they try, because they simply are not designed, physically or mentally, to perform what the job demands.

  96. Samuel Culpepper says:

    PeterW and BillyS:

    No authority here to dictate your lives, just don’t understand the logic from my understanding of scriptures. That said, if you can pull a nubile virgin of child bearing years . . . you have my respect and please write a “how to” book because I’ll buy it!

    And yes, I intend to stay unwed after I get out of this mess my wife calls “marriage” , . . unless of course you can help me find a hot body, holy, nubile virgin to wed!! I’ll finally be able to focus on my kids, God and whacking greenheads again.

    If you intend or want to marry a used up 50 year old divorcee, then you might as well just go on a slut banging tour because I think it gets you to the same place with the Lord (again, according to my understanding of scriptures).

    Scriptures aside, what man really wants to bang women with hail damage thighs, flabby abs and saggy tits? Are their really hot body 50 year old women out there? I have never seen one, hell there is rarely a woman north of 30 these days that I find attractive enough that I would want to sleep with her. They seem to look really worn at a very early age now . . . maybe its the hard living that most seem to partake in their twenties?

  97. Samuel Culpepper says:

    Splashman and Chad:

    Ditto here, except my wife is a divorced re-tred whore. And I too wonder about the virginal woman I could have married in my youth . . . what a wasted opportunity.

  98. Samuel Culpepper says:

    My dad got his virgin so he apparently didn’t give a shit about my brother and I. Came from a “good baptist family” and did even get the sex talk . . . not one word, nothing! It is true, the tradcons are really clueless about the madness going on in the marriage marriage market. My 70 year old father is the prototype.

  99. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Are their really hot body 50 year old women out there? I have never seen one, hell there is rarely a woman north of 30 these days that I find attractive enough that I would want to sleep with her.

    Plenty of beautiful women celebrities in their 40s. That’s what screws with average women’s minds. They see these gorgeous women celebrities in their 40s (who are more beautiful than most women in their 20s), and ordinary women think, Hey, that’s me!

    Ordinary women don’t see that staying beautiful is an expensive, full-time job. Celebrities have nutritionists, physical trainers, cosmetics experts, and plastic surgeons who keep them beautiful into their 40s. And even then, women celebrities have a tough time saying attractive into their 50s.

    Even grossly overweight, tattooed she-cows imagine themselves as being celebrity status hot! Or as the pastors say, ALL the women in this church are beautiful, beautiful, beautiful!

    All these obese, hideous she-beasts imagining themselves as amazingly awesome is yet another example of women getting a distorted view of reality from TV, films, and magazines.

  100. Isa says:

    @feeriker. “Words of pure gold that can be applied to any field of endeavor.”

    Not sure that’s true. Vastly more men that women are outliers, so the capability of a woman to be the next Monet is far less likely to exist than a man. The next court portrait painter or Lisa Frank? Equally likely. Super rich? Why not. A clever woman would go by her initials to be judged on talent alone or, if talent were lacking, plaster her face all over the usual suspects to be “the next hot thing” and cash in as people desperately try to prove they are not sexist by buying her tripe.

  101. A young man, early 20’s, starting in his career, so far so good in life and being consistent and careful, , that young man, even in the best circumstances where he has meaningful rapport with his father and takes his father seriously, the advice given by that dad has a massive flaw. It is edited to attempt to mask that some,many,all of the lessons are learned in the crucible of that dads own marriage to that young mans mother.

    Ive been fortunate with m,y oldest son who is nearing 24, that even though he connects the dots on where my cautionary advice comes from, he also had figured a loot of it out on his own because he is aware enough to have spotted certain elements of the advice as what they are…..a type of “See how your mother does XYZ? See how unreasonable that is and what a burden it grows into? ”

    Then i hear his GF of 2 years repeatedly joking saying, “Ha ha ha, what? Me cook? Ha ha ha” Ive told him to not make the mistake of assuming that just means something that will affect the food prep aspect of a future marriage, its a comprehensive red flag.

  102. Gunner Q says:

    Höllenhund @ April 22, 2017 at 4:32 am:
    “It did so as a benefit to unsexy men; their status was raised by such (artificial) institutions as monogamy and paternal custody, making them desirable enough to have a family.”

    I see this nonsense repeated all around the ‘sphere, even by supposedly redpilled men.”

    It’s Christianity, not nonsense. Christian morality requires valuing unsexy men. In fact, Christianity and formal monogamy are synonymous. It’s the mortal practice of the spiritual reality. Now that Christianity is functionally dead in the West, zero surprise that all the trappings of feminism are roaring back: polygamy, slavery, pointless wars, all expressions of disposable male life. All expressions of hatred towards the ultimate Father.

    The System never exists for the sake of children because they aren’t participants in the System. Either the sexy men run the show or the unsexy men run the show. I can’t imagine a System saying “you unsexy men are completely unfit to continue existing, you are nothing but cattle to feed my ego, but because I care so much about kids, here’s the key to City Hall and I promise to keep my pants zipped”.

  103. Jason says:

    Again. Women all think they are “perfect 10’s” in the looks department. Women my age (late 40’s) compare themselves to women in their twenties, as if there is zero difference in just the general facts of age. They all stroke each others frail and neurotic egos about how “hot” they are, about how they look great…and then the fantasy is over. The made-for-TV-movie on TV ends. The article about some “strong independent woman” who “dared” isn’t 99% of women. Realities of life take over. Bills have to paid. Sober reality hits that “you can’t have it your way” and the fact that you are not a 25 year old girl. Your are a 52 year old woman.

    Men will still be blamed for this new “crisis” of course; especially from the pulpit

  104. Frank K says:

    “Men will still be blamed for this new “crisis” of course; especially from the pulpit”

    And Churchian pastors will join the chorus asking “where have all the men gone?”

  105. BillyS says:

    Samuel,

    You need to expand your life quite a bit. You should first off stop proclaiming what you would do as a single if you are married. Deal with what you have, not what you wish you had.

    I have no notion of marrying again with anyone who could bear children. That train has long left the station except in a very unlikely situation. I don’t have a hot body myself, nor piles of cash to overcome that, so I can’t pull a hot wife with those. I would only want a wife who was attractive to me (relatively thin, though that is a bit flexible), and who has a good attitude and exhibits that most of the time.

    My “quest” is for a unicorn I am unlikely to find, but I am not stupid enough to decide God cannot meet it. I may have to be more flexible than I would have been in my 20s had I known then what I know now, but it is not the impossible dream you note. I am also realistic enough to know that any really hot woman I could pull would likely have some flawed reasons to pick me, except in the case of God moving.

    Are their really hot body 50 year old women out there?

    My soon to be ex-wife had a decent looking body. Her attitude led to the end of our marriage, but I have seen enough women who look like her to know they exist, even if they are relatively uncommon today. Finding a faithful one in that limited subset makes it even tougher, but nothing promises us an easy path in life.

    It may be that I will adapt to just being single, but I still like sex and I only see one valid avenue for that, so I will not write that route off, in spite of the risk.

    I would agree with you that many at that age look really rough, but that is life. Many young women look rough too, though often in other ways. It is a sign of our times. Very few graceful older women today and many of those have serious attitudes under their grace.

  106. BillyS says:

    Samuel,

    You also need to quit whining about the poor hand life dealt you. You made the choice to marry the one you married. Live with it and make the best of the future. I can tell you that being outside the strife is better than being in it, but that situation allows for little chance of change and solid reconciliation.

    Quit whining and grow a pair. Things suck, but you can only go forward. Be ungodly if you want to be that way, but this forum focuses on the Christian way to go forward. Start applying His Word into your life to transform things.

    My father did very little for me and I repeated a good part of his path. So what? I can only face the future. I may whine about the past myself at times (especially right now as I am in the last days (literally) of my long term marriage), but I quickly come back to the realization that whining doesn’t accomplish anything. Neither does bitterness.

    We disagree here on specifics, but the overall focus remains on how to go forward, not how to whine about the past.

  107. BillyS says:

    Jason and Frank,

    You should read some Plenty of Fish profiles. The unrealism is strong there. A few have bodies that could justify some self-centeredness, but many don’t even have that and are still self-centered.

  108. Frank K says:

    While I have never ventured into dating cesspools like PoF, I have seen such profiles quoted in other blogs. I also recall reading that those fat, tattooed, single mothers want to punch well above their weight. I suppose that once in a blue moon one of them sticks the landing.

    “It may be that I will adapt to just being single, but I still like sex and I only see one valid avenue for that, so I will not write that route off, in spite of the risk.”

    I can understand that mindset in a 20 year old man. As a man in my 50’s, I know I would not take such a risk.

  109. Frank K says:

    “My “quest” is for a unicorn I am unlikely to find, but I am not stupid enough to decide God cannot meet it.”

    These days it sure does seem that to find a good woman requires Divine intervention.

    It is also possible that God has other plans for us.

  110. melmoth says:

    I have to go contrarian here. Feminism has their myths galore but the manosphere as a few also and this is one of them; that women get shut out of dating/marriage when they are 40 plus. It seems like it should be true, as it rights the SMV arcs/equation so neatly, but look around you. Any woman who wants to put in the minimal effort it takes to stay under a buck fifty while growing her hair out will be just fine. If she can stay under a buck thirty she will have her pick of monied, middle class and higher men until she is 65. She won’t nab a manospherian but the blue-pill thirsters at her disposal are in the tens of millions. An UMC man who is 55 and has never heard of the manosphere is not going to go out and neg 25 year olds. He’s going to marry a 140 pound 52 year old the first chance he gets because that era of man sees bachelorhood as like a badge pronouncing that you’re gay or seriously flawed. I have seen absolutely hideously unattractive, fat women who are 45 plus go out and snag beta engineer types who will do anything for a warm mouth on their gear a few times a month in the dark of night. Never underestimate blue-pilled thirst in a culture where this is someone who can find work as an escort for the world’s wealthiest men;

    http://www.bet.com/news/national/2016/12/10/look–one-eyed—zombie-looking–hooker-arrested-in-south-caroli.html

  111. melmoth says:

    “I also recall reading that those fat, tattooed, single mothers want to punch well above their weight. I suppose that once in a blue moon one of them sticks the landing.”

    It hardly matters but I disagree with you. I agree that they won’t land a switched-on redpill man, but to think they get shut out almost completely is just not accurate. They are flooded with attention. A fat, single mom shouldering her lard into cleavage will not be lonely. Whether she marries or not is a different question but would probably yield the same degree of surprise.

  112. Mandy says:

    Gwyneth Paltriw recently wrote a really depressing article titled ” The thrill of dating in your forties.” Then another one about the joys of commitment free sex. She sounds like a sad cheerleader trying really hard to convo de everyone she is ok while choking back tears..

    It’s just really sad because she’ll never improve over the father of her children plus what kids want to know their mom wrote articles with those titles? Ick

  113. l jess says:

    Matthew 5; 31,32 applies – Do not marry a divorced woman (or have relations with her) – Simple command but overlooked in churchianity. – God put items like this in the bible for a reason. Man now has to think on it as to why it is the correct path.

  114. melmoth says:

    @Scanman,

    “Shake your head all you want, odds are the 40+ year old skank finds a thirsty dude to wife her up. I’ve seen it too many times to believe the opposite.”

    Agree. No one in the manosphere wants to admit that the SMV wounds we sustained early on don’t get their just desserts later on. It doesn’t seem fair or at least mathematically sound.

    I can’t believe some of the things I’ve seen stateside in terms of absolute pigs getting male attention. I mean the 50/50 club women; over fifty and over fifty pounds overweight. They can go out and play queen bee if they find the right bar. One old female friend is exactly that. She’s 50 years old and about 2 bills flat. Hikes her tits up and has longish hair and her drinking buddies basically line up to give her shoulder rubs, presumably before they go home and rub one out after some kind of physical contact with a female. I’m a long term expat/bachelor and the deprivation that these men endure stateside is beyond belief. I admit that I’m weird and off the charts in many ways, but I don’t understand how men can crawl under the sheets next to some of those monsters. It seems like your T would be driven to potentially fatal low levels.

  115. Frank K says:

    “A fat, single mom shouldering her lard into cleavage will not be lonely. Whether she marries or not is a different question but would probably yield the same degree of surprise.”

    I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard a woman say: “Where have all the good men gone?”

    And I’m not talking about post menopausal women in their 50’s. I’m talking about women in their 30’s.

    Yes, fat single moms can get laid. And more than a few thirsty betas will be suckered in by them. But right now, as we speak, 70% of all men under the age of 35 are single. Seventy percent. I’ll bet that number wasn’t even 10-15% when I was a kid. That is one ominous trend, so much so that some sociologists are predicting the end of marriage in the west, or that it will become the province of religious conservatives and the wealthy.

    Some older Trad Con men might feel compelled to wife up a divorcee. I’ve met a few who are repeat offenders and are on wife #4 or 5 (some guys just never learn). But I’ve also met plenty who are done with marriage and are content to not wife up another woman.

  116. melmoth says:

    Yeah the trend is changing quickly, I agree, but as of now, the 40 and 50 something men are still incredibly blue pilled.

  117. Frank K says:

    The older guys are definitely more blue pill than younger men, but even in that demographic there has been change, as 50% of adults are now single. Sure, a slim, attractive divorcee (especially one with a good job) will probably be able to reel a sucker in. The not so attractive ones will be able to find a lover (AKA a boyfriend), maybe even one who will cohabitate with her. But getting that ring will be a lot harder for them. We see examples of this in the article quoted by Dalrock (and these sorts of articles are legion). The middle aged divorcees have no problem finding men who are willing to bang them (though I would definitely pass), but are finding fewer men willing to “put a ring on it”. Heck, my office is full of frumpy, unmarried (divorced) middle aged career women.

  118. TheLastCoyote says:

    I mostly agree with @melmoth. Even a semi-attractive woman in her 40s is not shut out of the dating market because there are plenty of thirsty men in their 50s, and even 40s who will regard such a chick as the best he can do under his circumstances. These women certainly overestimate their market value, and many of these women will continue to think they can be picky about who they date or screw like they did in their 20s. But in a lot of cases, there is at least some kind of market for them.

  119. Gunner Q says:

    “I mostly agree with @melmoth. Even a semi-attractive woman in her 40s is not shut out of the dating market because there are plenty of thirsty men in their 50s, and even 40s who will regard such a chick as the best he can do under his circumstances.”

    Yeah, it’s like women moving to Alaska to find a man. The odds are good but the goods are odd. Frivorce is rarely a trade up.

  120. Frank K says:

    “Yeah, it’s like women moving to Alaska to find a man. The odds are good but the goods are odd. Frivorce is rarely a trade up.”

    This. I think that most women frivorce believing they can do better, then settle for a guy who is decidedly inferior to the ex: older, not as good looking and lower income. Divorced women definitely have options, just not the ones they were hoping for. Even Mrs. “Eat, Pray, Love” traded down and the replacement didn’t last.

  121. Anon says:

    I agree with the comments here that even a mininally attractive 40+ divorcee, with kids, can still land a beta schlub. Too many men are so blue pill that they don’t even question the mispricings of the MMP and SMP inflicted onto them.

    Most of these men do not deserve our sympathy. In fact, the only way to wreck ‘feminism’ is for costs to pile onto manginas/whiteknights/cuckservatives until they cannot bear any more.

  122. Just Saying says:

    the power dynamic has shifted once you’re an older woman.

    Reality is unkind… Unfortunately too many women do not find out just how unkind until it is too late for them. A friend’s wife (who was in her mid-40’s) detonated their marriage several years back, I invited him (50+) to work with us in our band – who knew he could play classical guitar like a pro? Anyway – it didn’t take him long to take advantage of what the young women after a show tend to offer – I have no idea why young women seem to crave guys in a band, other than that they just do. Anyway – he, like the rest of us, enjoy what is offered. When his daughter came to see one of our shows, and came back to our suite after a show, she reported to Mom that Dad was, “Dating women younger than me.”

    Mom didn’t fair anywhere near as well…. My friend told me once, “I can remember how even after 20+ year of marriage she could excite me, before she left. But now I just see an old woman and thinking of her saggy breasts just makes me shudder. After enjoying women in their 20’s again, there is no going back.” He’s right… But too many women haven’t figured that out – but it hits them in the face pretty hard when they detonate their marriage. And as my friend said, “there is no going back for a man”. If he marries a woman when she’s young, he always sees her as she was – unless reality makes him face it. Divorce is the ultimate reality for a man, but once the love-goggles are removed, they are gone for good.

    Older women have zero power – it is as simple as that. A 40+ year old woman needs to look for 70+ year old men or maybe mid-to-late 60’s… Reality is a bitch – then you die…

  123. scanman says:

    “A 40+ year old woman needs to look for 70+ year old men or maybe mid-to-late 60’s… Reality is a bitch – then you die…”

    Except that this isn’t even close to reality. Male desperation is far greater than you seem to understand.

  124. Anon says:

    Except that this isn’t even close to reality. Male desperation is far greater than you seem to understand.

    Yes. Too many blue-pill schlubs will marry a woman the same age as them, even if that age happens to be 45 or 50, and even if she is a single mother. Most of these schlubs are manginas and cuckservatives, and so deserve no sympathy.

    That shows how clear the field is for a red-pill man with Game who wants to perennially be in the ‘half + seven’ scale of dating women.

    For example, Jim Gay-ratty of ‘Ward Cleaver is a Stud!’ infamy married a single mother who may even be older than him. Unfortunately, his video has 4 times as many ‘likes’ as ‘dislikes’, so the majority of cuckservatives agree with him.

  125. melmoth says:

    @JustSaying,

    I’ll go ahead and believe your story, but I have to say it is coincidentally also one of the most classic Manosphere fables of wishful thinking. All you missed was the detail of the old guy who got kicked out of the house having a ‘full head of salt and pepper hair.’ Throw in the ‘six months of lifting giving him the physique of Billy Jack’ (after 25 sedentary years) and you have the fable on lock down. A guitar player too! At the professional level and no one knew it! You’re testing me on this one. Man….Banging out hotties younger than his daughter who just dutifully takes that info straight to her mom who’s crying over her dildo (why not throw that in?) Add in the fact that he just happens to be an expert at restoring Harley’s after finding one at a garage sale for 400 bucks, and then it’s all there. Like I said, I believe you but it’s not easy. It’s the manosphere’s version of the female divorcee fable; quick corporate climb, alpha ceo is smitten etc that is detailed above. Here’s why it’s the classic fable; It SHOULD be true. We deserve it to be true. Everyone loves karma. It sorts out the mathematics of the SMV chart. It would be the fair thing but it just doesn’t work like this at all.

    Also your comment;

    “A 40+ woman needs to look for 70+ year old men”

    That’s deep into fable land there. Once again, it should be true but it’s not even close. It’s not an SMV-based society. It’s a feminine imperative based society. We wish it was a straight up game of SMV with no FI domination, but that’s not reality. We all agree with the sentiment that you’re espousing but it’s just now how it is. The feminine imperative carries on with little come uppance at all. That’s why it’s the FI. That’s why it’s a gynocracy. The FI doesn’t stop and then transform into the MI. If it did, it wouldn’t be a gynocracy. It’s not an FI dominated society that stops at age 35 and begins to invert. It steamrolls right on through. Once again, it SHOULD work like that, meaning it SHOULDN’T be an FI society, but it is. That’s why the fable is just a fable. The FI endures. Right on to the lean 63 year old divorced women getting married to 73 year old men worth 40 million who STILL won’t take their money to Indonesia or Romania to indulge in 19 year olds (as they should do).

  126. Frank K says:

    Curiously, I personally know a guy in his early fifties who divorced his frumpy wife and is engaged to a woman 20 years his junior. He is in excellent physical shape, though he doesn’t play in a band nor does he restore Harleys. And his fiance is also very fit, one of those who participate in Tough Mudders, etc. She looks like an Olympian, very well toned and very shapely. He isn’t particularly well off, owns no property, etc., but has a white collar job of some sort.

    Now, you’d think that this woman could do better than him, say a another fit guy with a 7 figure net worth. But apparently those kind of men can do better than her (while she has a hot bod, she has a butter face).

    So it goes both ways.

  127. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    I can understand that mindset in a 20 year old man. As a man in my 50’s, I know I would not take such a risk.

    I am in the latter category. I had relatively regular sex until last fall, so it is stronger than someone who has done without it for the same time period. That urge does decline more with time, so who knows what I will want a year from now….

  128. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Joan Bakewell, Harold Pinter’s former illicit lover, wrote a play about their affair, Keeping in Touch: https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2017/apr/22/joan-bakewell-pinter-betrayal-affair-keeping-in-touch-radio-4

    Keeping in Touch is clearly about an intelligent woman trapped in a domestic life that denies her fulfilment: Rachel has a crucial speech in which she talks about the way marriage cuts you off from attractive and beguiling people and becomes “a limit on life”.

    Well, yes. Marriage is supposed to cut you off from “attractive and beguiling people” (i.e., other lovers). That’s what the marriage is. It’s in the marriage vow. Yet this idiot playwright offers this up as some shocking revelation.

  129. Frank K says:

    “Well, yes. Marriage is supposed to cut you off from “attractive and beguiling people” (i.e., other lovers). That’s what the marriage is. It’s in the marriage vow. ”

    FWIW, in most secular marriage ceremonies chances are you won’t hear a single promise of fidelity exchanged. No “to forsake all others”. I’ve heard plenty of inane vows exchanged, such as to be “partners in crime” (whatever that’s supposed to mean). These days, outside of a religious ceremony at a non Churchian church, you probably won’t ever hear a vow of fidelity exchanged. And for that matter, “until death do us part” is almost as rare. Most modern marriage ceremonies are little more than saccharine exchanges of sentimentality, with no real meat. I guess that comes in handy later when cupcake cheats and then nukes the marriage, since she never made any real promises to begin with.

  130. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron is married to a woman nearly 25 years his senior. He’s 39, she’s 64. She has three children from a previous marriage.

    I wonder what this signifies, if anything. Closet gay? True love conquers all?

  131. Red Pill Latecomer says:
  132. Frank K says:

    If he’s typical of French politicians, he probably has a mistress on the side. I seem to recall reading that when Mitterrand died both his wife and mistress publicly attended his funeral and no one in France batted an eyelash,

  133. Lost Patrol says:

    RPL

    I wonder what this signifies, if anything. Closet gay? True love conquers all?

    This story could be written many ways.
    1. Verification of all commentary upthread about the endless supply of beta simps that are happy to get even older, divorced women with children (and grandchildren).
    2. Clever politician secures money train by playing chivalry/romance game well.
    3. She is a better mother to him than his own ever was.
    4. Clever old rich woman uses younger front man to gain national power.
    5. Her kids, being his age, became the friends he never had.

    It’s very difficult to find something to respect about a man that goes this route, whatever the actual motivations.

  134. Samuel Culpepper says:

    BillyS;

    No whining here, just stating the facts . . . I am yoked to a divorced woman which is adultery if you are a christian. Can’t keep banging a divorced woman and expect to have God’s blessing . . . which I have 16 years experience in. So yes, I can say affirmatively that I will not re-marry unless I found some unicorn, which I will not at my age (early 40’s). Do I still want sex . . . yes! Am I going to flaunt God’s law to satisfy that urge . . . absolutely not! That’s what got me into this mess in the first place . . . banging whores.

    If you want to wife up another slut . . . knock yourself out!!!

  135. Scott says:

    Time to start bachelor taxing those creepy basement dwellers who can’t get laid.

  136. PokeSalad says:

    There’s a reason polygamy was eventually rejected by almost every culture in the world. Widespread polygamy meant large numbers of men who had no hope of marrying and forming families.

    PokeSalad’s Law invoked!

  137. thedeti says:

    I mostly agree with Melmoth. Most divorced men in their 40s and 50s will be doing really really well to date and have sex with women around their same ages as long as they’re reasonably attractive, and there are some reasonably attractive women in that age group. There aren’t a lot, but there are some. But, women in their 40s and 50s who have held their attractiveness will do quite well getting attention from reasonably attractive men – for sex, but not for commitment. Most of the men they’ll be getting attention from have already been through the divorce meat grinder, and are (or should be) older and wiser. Those women will be able to get married again if they really want to, but not to an attractive older man.

  138. thedeti says:

    “There’s a reason polygamy was eventually rejected by almost every culture in the world. Widespread polygamy meant large numbers of men who had no hope of marrying and forming families.”

    Right. And what happens when you have large numbers of men who can’t marry and have families? Widespread crime, violence, and war. Saudi Arabia, Iran, and fundamentalist Islam. That’s what you get.

  139. Gunner Q says:

    “I wonder what this signifies, if anything. Closet gay? True love conquers all?”

    My guess would be political connections with a mistress on the side. At that level of society, marriage is a business arrangement having nothing to do with religion or sex.

    “PokeSalad’s Law invoked!”

    It works!

  140. RecoveringBeta says:

    Sorry for being OT, but what’s a good opener for a Baptist pastor’s daughter? Asking for a friend

  141. Pingback: Vows as a distinction between transaction and sacrament | American Dad

  142. anonymous_ng says:

    It’s all so variable.

    I know one man in his mid-fifties. His second wife is maybe thirty-one. They’ve got a couple kids together, and they seem happy, at least as can be judged from the outside. He’s in decent shape, and accomplished in his profession, so, I assume he’s doing OK financially, but he’s certainly not a multi-millionaire.

    She’s attractive enough, and seems more so now that they’re married and have kids.

    On the other hand, I have another friend who trips most of the LAMPS attributes, and the woman he spends his time with is a warpig.

    @JustSaying wrote:
    Mom didn’t fair anywhere near as well…. My friend told me once, “I can remember how even after 20+ year of marriage she could excite me, before she left. But now I just see an old woman and thinking of her saggy breasts just makes me shudder. After enjoying women in their 20’s again, there is no going back.” He’s right… But too many women haven’t figured that out – but it hits them in the face pretty hard when they detonate their marriage.

    That’s kinda how it is with my ex. There was never a time when I didn’t find her attractive. Now, she’s a haggard looking drone, and I leave every interaction with her thinking how glad I am to not be married to her.

  143. Frank K says:

    “That’s kinda how it is with my ex. There was never a time when I didn’t find her attractive. Now, she’s a haggard looking drone, and I leave every interaction with her thinking how glad I am to not be married to her.”

    Well, if your Christian marriage to her was valid, then she’s still your wife. You just don’t live with her anymore, which in an of itself can be a good thing.

  144. thedeti says:

    Re: Fathers not teaching sons about female nature and the dating/sexual marketplace, boys not learning about female nature:

    Like most men in the manosphere, I was in the same boat. I think Feeriker listed all the possibilities. There were several things at play.

    1) The sexual marketplace was changing incredibly rapidly. Most parents raising kids in the 70s and 80s had absolutely no idea what was going on and what the more attractive, sexually active boys and girls were doing. They were totally clueless about how much and how fast sexual mores had changed. I told my parents some of the things that were going on circa 1981-86. They didn’t believe it. “nope. Girls don’t act like that. The only girls who DO act like that are stupid, slutty, crazy or damaged. And there are very very few such girls. Nope. Boys don’t act like that. The only boys who DO act like that are immoral, criminal, or stupid. And there aren’t that many such boys.” They approached life and sex as if it were still the 1950s and early 60s, the one they were raised in; and foolishly believed that was the marketplace that still existed.

    2) AIDS. People were literally out of their minds with fear about AIDS. People were telling us AIDS would explode into the general heterosexual population. We were being told 25% of the ENTIRE US heterosexual population would be dead of AIDS in 30 years. “Look to your left and to your right, right here in this classroom. One of you will eventually get AIDS.” The result was a lot less sex, and what sex did happen was antiseptic.

    3) The culture of political correctness. Most men are “rules followers” – natural betas. They do what they’re told, in exchange for the promise of later rewards – women who love and live with them, marry them and have sex with them. And what these men were told is that they were hopeless sexual deviants and degenerates merely for wanting sex. They were told their natural urges were bad, immoral, evil, sick, perverted, violent, and criminal. They were told that ANY attempt at dating a woman who didn’t like them was sexual harassment, punishable by loss of jobs, getting kicked out of school, getting jammed up with disciplinary authorities, employers or law enforcement, and getting sued. They were told essentially “if you say or do anything, anything at all, that any woman doesn’t like, she’ll report you for sexual harassment. Your life will be ruined. Your life is over. You’ll never finish school. You’ll never get a job. You’ll never get a woman. You’ll live in poverty, isolation and with no women. Because no one will ever want anything to do with you ever again.”

    4) In years past, fathers, uncles, older brothers, and other men formed boys up, and it was done completely outside women’s presence. Because it was hard and difficult, tears were shed, and boys got hurt. The men encouraged them to get up, shake it off, and get back in the game. They knew that their moms would coddle and shelter them, and so did all this forming up work away from their moms, aunties, sisters, etc.

    But what changed was more and more women insisting on having a hand in shaping the sexual conduct of men, both to “make it safer”, and to control and keep at bay less attractive men. And more and more men/husbands/fathers capitulating and allowing women (usually their wives or ex wives) much more power in teaching sons about sex, dating, marriage and how to conduct relationships with women. This, in my view, is the genesis of the “just be nice/just be yourself, and someday someone will love you just for who you are” shitty advice so many boys were getting at that time.

    “Just be nice”. “Just be yourself”.

    “Dont’ change!! You don’t need to change!”

    “Don’t improve! You don’t need to improve! You’re fine just the way you are! If you change, people will think you’re fake, that you’re being something you’re not!”

    “Looks don’t matter. It’s what’s on the inside that counts.”

    “girls and women are sexually attracted to nice guys. Girls and women think nice is hot.”

    “Girls and women are sooooo sexually attracted to religious guys. Guys who pray and love Jesus are hot. Guys who go to church camp and serve God are hot.”

    “Show her your emotions. Tell her how you feel. Be open and vulnerable to her. Wear your heart on your sleeve. Guys who can cry are hot, because they’re secure in who they are.”

    What was notably absent from this advice?

    It works only if she’s sexually attracted to you FIRST. No one was telling these guys to look good, lose weight, don’t be a fatass, have a decent hairstyle, dress well, shower regularly, look your best. It was assumed all guys “just know” this. It was “just get it; just figure it out for yourself!”

    No one was telling guys to improve their physical appearances. Because, you know, if you do that, if you’re putting a lot of value on looks, then you’re a shallow, superficial asshole. And if you’re putting value on looks, then you’re doing that with girls too, and that makes you even more shallow and superficial. “Girls don’t care about how you look. Cuz looks don’t matter.”

    That’s how we got to where we are today.

  145. anonymous_ng says:

    @RecoveringBeta, here’s a great opener, works pretty good, and in every situation.

    “Hi, I’m RecoveringBeta.”

  146. Frank K says:

    “I am yoked to a divorced woman which is adultery if you are a christian”

    This is in my opinion one of the great scandals of contemporary Christendom, especially on the Protestant side of the aisle. Pastor and Theologians perform impressive mental gymnastics to justify this, most likely because they know that of they Bob and Susan that they can’t marry, that they will just shop around for another Pastor who will tell them that they are free to marry because “reasons”.

    It also doesn’t help that some Catholic jurisdictions will hand out annulments for the flimsiest of reasons, though there has been some clamping down on that abuse. I have read that the top reason Catholics become Protestants is because they want to remarry after a divorce and the annulment court said “no”.

  147. anonymous_ng says:

    @thedeti, all I can remember my dad saying was if he found out I was basically pump and dumping girls when in HS, he’d kick my ass.

    I can still remember the conversation and how at the time all I could think was “WTF?” as I was so shy, introverted, and uncomfortable around women, he might as well have said that if I walked on water and he found out about it, I’d be in trouble.

    Thus, I will add that one other problem is men offering up advice without understanding what assumptions underlay that advice.

    For example, I have one friend who credits his success with women as a young man with his being willing to listen to them. Hey, that’s great and all, but it presumes that the man in question is normal enough, attractive enough, and has enough self-esteem/respect/worth to engage attractive women in conversation.

    It’s like a recipe for some dish, step one is to gather the ingredients, but that step is assumed and not written. So it is with advice, there are usually previous steps that aren’t mentioned, and the ones most in need of the advice are the ones missing out on those unspoken steps.

  148. thedeti says:

    One of the things often asked is

    “How come YOU guys are the ones who didn’t get it, when most other guys got it, or at least seemed to?”

    Well…

    1) A lot of guys got really really lucky. They clicked with their second or third sex partner and have been with her ever since, and she’s really hot for him, and he’s really hot for her.

    2) A good deal of guys got better advice. They had masculine fathers. Or they just ignored their parents.

    3) They’re natural alphas.

    4) They are blissfully ignorant.

  149. Kevin says:

    A friend of my wives just announced she is getting divorced a crowd of women. Instead of disowning her they all congratulate or at least sympathize.

    Not unusual and happens every day. What she said next was, “Who knows, we might both be married in a year to different people.” LOL. Such delusion.

    She is an overweight lady in her mid 40s who is about a 5 for HER AGE. She is frivorcing a solid, decent looking doctor who worked his whole life for her. Of course, she gets the money so its all ok for her and no worries about tradeoffs. But the delusion anyone would want to marry her (maybe to get the doctors money) is crazy. The pure delusion of women, like she is a catch that there is someone out there for her. So dumb. I know the kids – this lady is so terrible and selfish to do this to them.

  150. BillyS says:

    Samuel,

    I am yoked to a divorced woman which is adultery if you are a christian.

    I don’t find that to be an accurate reading of the entirety of the Scriptures, but do what you will. You should file for divorce if you really believe that and then remain single.

    I have been thinking about writing up thoughts on this general topic at some point. Jesus was responding to a specific question. While we can take principles from His reply, we need to watch we don’t stretch it beyond understanding either. I find a lot of the teaching on the topic either ignores it completely or stretches it farther than it should be. Either is errant.

    I don’t know what I will do. I see practical reasons to be skeptical of a divorced woman, even if I ultimately decide I can accept it Scripturally. The idea that you should divorce a current spouse to return to a former one has been around for longer than many readers have been alive. It was errant then and remains incomplete today. Tearing a family apart is not consistent with the overall message of the Scriptures.

    Though you can and should do as you are convicted. Though you should not remain married in name if you are really convicted of that. You are violating a Scriptural command to not deprive your wife of sex if you remain married. Be consistent with your beliefs either way.

    Note that my comment about whining was driven by your more recent posts. You can and should do as you are convicted. Just be consistent and push forward.

  151. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    I don’t expect to sway you, but a believer is not in bondage to stay married to an unbeliever who departs:

    [1Co 7:15 NKJV] 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]. But God has called us to peace.

    Preceding verses specifically tie this to divorce:

    [1Co 7:12-13 NKJV] 12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.

    Thus divorce is allowed if the unbelieving spouse departs.

    A spouse who willfully ignores God’s commands in the area of marriage, including filing for and finalizing a divorce in the legal system (which violates several Scriptural commands, including having regular sex) would be like an unbeliever.

    [Mat 18:15-17 NKJV] 15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 “But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell [it] to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

    God has definite standards, but He also does not hold individuals in bondage based on the decisions of others. It is certainly not ideal, but I do not find it Biblically consistent to require lifetime celibacy because of an errant spouse.

    Others are free to disagree, but you should prove it from the whole of the Scriptures not just one answer to a question on the specific case of a man putting his wife away. Jesus dealt with that and the trap it was bait for, not the entire issue for all eternity.

  152. RecoveringBeta says:

    @anonymous_ng I knew my friend was overthinking it. Thanks

  153. BillyS says:

    Kevin,

    A friend of my wives just announced she is getting divorced a crowd of women. Instead of disowning her they all congratulate or at least sympathize.

    I expect that is very common, even in churches that proclaim “divorce is not an option,” especially if she claims some form of abuse (even emotional abuse). It happened in my previous church, at least in concept if not in a group setting. The focus on the “safety” of the woman is far too short ranged to keep in mind all the possible implications of such stupidity.

  154. Gunner Q says:

    anonymous_ng @ 11:18 am:
    “here’s a great opener, works pretty good, and in every situation. “Hi, I’m RecoveringBeta.””

    I tried that in church and got projectile vomit for my trouble. Try “hey, my Mom wears the same style of pants! Do you shop at the Gap?”

    Strike that. Walk up to her, make eye contact, slap her face and walk away without a word. See how she reacts.

    Strike that. Taking advice from me on approaching women is like asking a hobo for stock tips. I officially have no idea what works.

  155. anonymous_ng says:

    @Gunner Q, you may be correct that it doesn’t work so well at church.

    I’ve not tried it at church. In fact, I’ve not tried any openers at church. The eldest single woman at church is only a couple of years older than my eldest daughter.

    I found it worked well for me in bars and nightclubs. It might not work so well for others.

  156. Frank K says:

    Billy – My understanding of the passages you quote applies to people who were married to pagans who abandoned them after their conversion. I assume that your wife was a Christian when you married her.

    Again, these seem to me like mental gymnastics that the reformed make to justify divorce and remarriage. Prior to the reformation it was not interpreted that way, not by Rome, not by Byzantium, nor the Copts, the Chaldeans, or any of the ancient churches. The interpretation you champion is a Protestant innovation.

  157. Frank K says:

    “A spouse who willfully ignores God’s commands in the area of marriage, including filing for and finalizing a divorce in the legal system (which violates several Scriptural commands, including having regular sex) would be like an unbeliever.”

    Sounds more like a heretic or at least a poor Christian than an unbeliever to me. Plus don’t you guys believe in “once saved, always saved”? Again, more mental gymnastics to justify the worldly practice of divorce and remarriage within the church,

  158. Frank K says:

    “Taking advice from me on approaching women is like asking a hobo for stock tips. I officially have no idea what works.”

    I always find honesty to be very refreshing.

  159. Kevin says:

    Porn tax

    LOLZ.

    Sex trafficking is the new crack craze. A rare horrible thing that is rare. Super rare.

    How do you tax what is given away for free. This is such a stupid money grab with horribly difficult implementation. Legislatures think that can wave a magic wand that will limit a devices ability to get access to something.

    Porn is terrible, anti-Christ. But this is the dumbest law since it cannot be enforced over the internet meaning…it cannot be enforced.

  160. Frank K says:

    ” Legislatures think that can wave a magic wand that will limit a devices ability to get access to something.”

    Indeed. There are offshore websites where you can watch copyrighted TV shows and movies for free. They make money via advertising on their websites. If Hollywood could stop them, it would.

    The whole notion of a bachelor tax on men is risible. Men will always find ways to circumvent such a thing. Plus how much money do “neck bearded basement dwellers” even have?

  161. BillyS says:

    I agree that my case would not rest on RCC tradition Frank. I am a Sola Scriptura guy and that is one reason I stopped being part of the RCC years ago. I seek to live my life as consistently with the entirety of the Scriptures as I can. What you call “mental gymnastics” is what I call evaluating the entirety of the Scriptures.

    I am sure I would be considered a heretic by many in the RCC, but I don’t really care. I am more concerned about being as close to the Scriptures as I can. I don’t expect my case to convert many, but I do make it so others can see that a case can be made and that it is based on more than just “because that is what I want.” I would commit to be single the rest of my life if that is what I saw in the Scriptures, but I do not see that principle as required.

    This is almost like those who took the Sabbath to such an extreme it hindered the life of people. God expects us to walk through life the best we can. We are not under any Law and His requirements are meant to maximize our productive use for the Kingdom, not be a weight around our neck.

    You are of course feel to believe otherwise. I have weathered far worse in the past and will likely get it in the future, from all sides.

  162. Frank K says:

    Billy – Forget about the RCC. None of the ancient churches ever interpreted those verses the way the Protestants do. None. Not even the orthodox, who do allow divorce to “accommodate human weakness”. What you call “Sola Scriptura” is simply a convenient, and in my opinion very dishonest, interpretation. The Churchians will tell you that they are “sola scriptura” to back up the rubbish they preach. I leave you with that.

  163. Frank K says:

    “I am sure I would be considered a heretic by many in the RCC, but I don’t really care.”

    You would be wrong. Protestants are now referred to, most charitably, as “separated brethren” and are considered Christians. Protestant baptisms, as long as they are administered in “The name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” are considered valid baptisms, and should a validly baptized Protestant choose to become Catholic, they would not be rebaptized, though I suspect that your Protestant church would not return the favor 🙂

  164. RICanuck says:

    @Scott re. pr0n tax

    Human trafficking? Roosh’s latest today mentions the documentary “Hot Girls Wanted”. These girls are lining up to do pr0n, and some of them have supportive dads! The suggested tax is $20, so, at that amount it will not discourage pr0n use. In future it will raise to $50, $500, $1,000 etc. It’s a tax. Soon enough, there will be black market unlockers, and a whole new branch of law enforcement to snoop on illegal pr0n unlocks.

    I could not tell if the church lady looking pr0n crusader had a wedding ring, but I would have loved it if the interviewer asked if she was sexing up her husband. If not, the follow up question would have been, “Do you really think that $20 will prevent your husband from seeking release?”

    In the present SMP, I think pr0n is a necessary social safety valve. If pr0n is completely stopped there will be a lot more frustrated men, with rising testosterone levels. Sooner or later men will be demanding submission and modesty.

    Picture a scene in HR:
    HR Lady – “there have been complaints of sexual harassment about your staring.”
    Office man – “I’m a hetero man. I notice cleavage. This company has a dress code, start enforcing it!”

    The end result may be an SMP/MMP with more submissive and modest women, but the process of getting there will not be pretty.

  165. BillyS says:

    Frank,

    That is purely my view. I have never heard it taught that I can recall.

    I have been baptized as an infant in the RCC and because I saw it in the Scriptures as a teen believer. I am covered either way in that area. I could probably even get communion in the RCC, though I am not sure of the rules in that area. (I was confirmed a long time ago as a young teen.)

  166. Pathfinderlight says:

    With this sort of story all too common, I’m starting to wonder if it is the moral thing to do to bang these bitter old familywreckers, then parade their panties all over town for people to mock.

  167. Jay Fink says:

    I have never had sex with a post menopausal woman. It seems unnatural.

  168. Chad says:

    Thedeti’s comments are a tour de force of truth and speak loud and clear to someone of my generation.

  169. Isa says:

    @Kevin “She is frivorcing a solid, decent looking doctor who worked his whole life for her. Of course, she gets the money so its all ok for her and no worries about tradeoffs.”

    Lady is an idiot. Doctors -start- making bank in their mid 40’s and continue in their 50’s. She took all the lean years with the outrageous debt, his next wife will get the whole $250k salary plus bonuses. He will have a pretty nurse gf by the end of the year no problem.

  170. feeriker says:

    With this sort of story all too common, I’m starting to wonder if it is the moral thing to do to bang these bitter old familywreckers, then parade their panties all over town for people to mock.

    Make a date with one of these women and then, at the end of it, tell her that it just won’t work out because of her age. Tell her that you have fetishes on both ends of the age spectrum: teen girls and grannies. Tell her that she can either reverse her age by four decades, or come back fof another date in another three decades when she’s old and gray.

    The reaction (or meltdown) should be priceless.

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