UK Millennial men earning like women.

Lianna Brinded at Business Insider notes that weak men are screwing feminism up: The gender pay gap is narrowing for millennials — ‘but for the wrong reasons’

Millennial men have earned less than Generation X men in every year between the ages of 22 and 30, resulting in a cumulative pay deficit during their 20s of £12,500 ($15,638). However, the unit found that millennial women’s pay is stagnant compared to the last generation.

The problem is that young men in the UK are starting to work like women:

[Men] are taking up jobs that used to be predominantly taken by women — part-time, low-paid work – according the think tank Resolution Foundation’s “Intergenerational Commission” unit.

This is precisely the kind of change we would expect as men slowly react to the removal of the incentives of a marriage based system. We are of course witnessing something very similar in the US.

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This entry was posted in Disrespecting Respectability, Economics, Patriarchal Dividend, Pay Gap, Weak men screwing feminism up. Bookmark the permalink.

172 Responses to UK Millennial men earning like women.

  1. Frank K says:

    “This is precisely the kind of change we would expect as men slowly react to the removal of the incentives of a marriage based system.”

    Very true, but I suspect offshoring has something to do with it as well. Even if you’re single, why not get a better paying job? That way you can have a car and other niceties for yourself.

  2. AmicusC says:

    @Frank because most men left to their own devices are minimalists. they can be content with very little. you can have a vehicle without high paying job. it wont be a benz but who cares. it has to get from a to b why do I need something that costs over 20k new?

    @dalrock they do seem to be panicking that captain saveaho wont be there for them in the future. life is going to be very rough for a lot of this and potentially the next generation.

  3. john smith says:

    This is exactly as MGTOW predicts. MGTOW philosophy (not the Red Pill Rage) will be proven to be correct. Also, one must remember that MGTOW is not a cause, it is a symptom.

  4. Gunner Q says:

    Women are given privileged access to traditionally male work while men are forced into traditionally female work. The inversion of sex roles continues to spread.

  5. Pingback: UK Millennial men earning like women. | @the_arv

  6. Minesweeper says:

    be careful what you wish for. now they have pay equality …. oooppps. how do we change this so they can fund women being the irresponsible assholes they seem to end up being most of the time ?

    the government debts in western countries are through the roof, thanks to feminism and family destruction. not only arnt these millennials going to pay this debt, they will prob back out even more from earning if the tax’s start being raised.

    its time you actually saw the financial cost of females\feminism rather than is all being hidden. even young men know the costs and whats going on.

    they will reap a whirlwind of what they are sowing. the fat abusive feminists still think the government(men) will protect and provide for them when they are pensioners.

    they just might have a rude awakening. Once you have shit on men, we dont forget.

  7. Minesweeper says:

    @john smith says:”This is exactly as MGTOW predicts. MGTOW philosophy (not the Red Pill Rage) will be proven to be correct. Also, one must remember that MGTOW is not a cause, it is a symptom.”

    You are right, but its worse than that, MGTOW is a last resort. It really is the end, and men do come back from it, neither do their tax revenues.

    Its really been quite amazing to read Dalrock say for years, that the inertia of the whole buggered system will keep pushing it past the point it can be recovered. I now see he is correct. There will be no correction, it will have to be revolution or revival.

  8. Minesweeper says:

    @AmicusC “because most men left to their own devices are minimalists. they can be content with very little. you can have a vehicle without high paying job. it wont be a benz but who cares”

    right also, ive only seen 1 house of guys sharing, I suspect maybe this will be the way forward. its still very culturally strange, roomies for middle aged guys rather than wives 😀

  9. Frank K says:

    I know a lot of single men who are doing quite well. Perhaps the underachievers are the ones who would be doing back breaking manual labor if they were married. In that case I could see them being minimalists (as in P/T, low wage laborers).

    And FWIW, even a reasonably priced car is out of reach for most minimalists (never mind a Benz). Having driven a beater when I was poor I recall the joys of not knowing if it would get me where I was going and that was a big incentive for me to study my STEM major.

  10. DeNihilist says:

    Slowly, the change doth happen.

    We read more now about a living wage, paid to all.

    We read more now, that AI exhibits a temper when it does not get its’ way. That soon, very soon, robots will be doing the bulk of the work.

    Scooters, or ride sharing are becoming more the transportation desire of more young people.

    In Denmark, marriage is almost gone. Co-habitation is the norm.

    College students, if their phones are taken away during exams, freak out and drop 12-20% on their test scores.

    Women whose brains are washed to believe that men have held them under their thumb, going more screwy. Dating and sleeping around, as they are instructed, because men do it. But breaking up with their FWB guy, “because you won’t commit” (actually just happened to my son), and not realizing that their nature is trying to tell them something, something that their washed brains will never be able to remove.

    Why work hard when the government will pay you to game and porn?

    And people wonder why the Muslim faith is becoming so attractive to more and more western men?

  11. Dalrock says:

    @Minesweeper

    Its really been quite amazing to read Dalrock say for years, that the inertia of the whole buggered system will keep pushing it past the point it can be recovered. I now see he is correct. There will be no correction, it will have to be revolution or revival.

    Just to clarify, I don’t think it is inevitable that we will push past the point of correction. There are strong structural forces pushing us that way, but as we’ve seen lately (Trump, Brexit) the seemingly unthinkable can quite rapidly become acceptable if the pain gets high enough. I do however think that once we do try to correct, the effort to correct will initially (and inadvertently) speed up the delayed negative response. I see no way around that. I also think our elites know this in their guts, and this is part of why they are so conflicted.

    For one example of this inadvertent side effect, see the surprisingly mainstream discussion of MGTOW. Willcox and others are now naming the concept in an attempt to counteract it. Ironically they are by this very act driving the concepts into the mainstream, and thereby risk turning it into something that resembles an actual movement. And this is just the very early, most tepid attempt to address the issue. For all of the carping, the actual impact of this loss of men’s earnings is fairly small. The real hit will come in 5-10 years, as the men currently in their 20s start to move into their 30s (and then beyond), when the real earnings would normally occur. This is where the real loss will be experienced, and once that happens we will start to see a much stronger attempt to turn this around without actually reinstating the incentives.

  12. Fiddlesticks says:

    @Frank because most men left to their own devices are minimalists. they can be content with very little. you can have a vehicle without high paying job. it wont be a benz but who cares. it has to get from a to b why do I need something that costs over 20k new?

    Plus enough UK men have seen their friends underperform in the dating market compared to men from S Europe and Turkey with far less euros. So why prioritize provider signaling?

  13. Dalrock says:

    @Frank K

    Very true, but I suspect offshoring has something to do with it as well. Even if you’re single, why not get a better paying job? That way you can have a car and other niceties for yourself.

    There are a host of factors that make up what I would call an economic headwind, and offshoring is certainly one of them. However, when you have the headwind, you need all of your horsepower all the more. Reducing incentives isn’t less of a problem in difficult economic times, it is a greater problem.

    And the problem isn’t in most cases one young man who has a job offer for a good paying full time job vs one flipping burgers part time. It is more about how hard young men work at every step on the ladder, every decision/tradeoff along the way. Even if their priorities shift just a little bit, this is cumulative over time. Surely you’ve seen this among your peers. Some just work a bit (or a lot) harder than others, and this slowly makes a difference, over the span of years.

    So, yes, there will be unmarried men who have great jobs and earn a good income, just like there are women doing the same*. But the distribution of women’s effort/earnings has remained stagnant, and men’s has decreased to where it looks like women. Unless this turns around dramatically, it will have a huge effect on our tax receipts in just a few years.

    *And married men, along with men on a marriage track, continue to work much harder as a group than unmarried men as well as women in general.

  14. AmicusC says:

    @Minesweeper “right also, ive only seen 1 house of guys sharing, I suspect maybe this will be the way forward. its still very culturally strange, roomies for middle aged guys rather than wives”

    I concur. and I think we will start seeing more of it depending on your jurisdiction. one of the upsides of marriage is technically cost savings rather than buying two of everything you just share one, H, W, P, appliances, Internet, cable (if people still use that) mortgage/rent.

    its only going to make economic sense for men to start doing this.

    I have seen and know lots of people on this path. group up during college or during entry level jobs to save money. then realize the costs of moving out on their own aren’t worth it. so rather than moving on between 25-30, they are living in communal arrangements until mid 30s. (process is ongoing as that’s my cohort.)

  15. feministhater says:

    Sorry to tell you guys, but the harder you work, the bigger the spotlight shines on you. In the years to come, hard workers will be taxed to compensate for the loss of taxable income that governments face. In the end, becoming minimalist isn’t a life choice as much as it is a life necessity.

  16. Anon says:

    Good! Since the tax code (in the US) is precisely structured to penalize the hardest work (usually done by married men), let’s see the tax-base erosion begin.

    Due to progressive brackets, a person earning, say, 30% less, might pay only half as much in income taxes..

  17. Original Laura says:

    I don’t know how the benefits are set up in the UK, but in the USA, a young couple who have a couple of children WITHOUT getting married can do very well for themselves in flyover country. Each of them can file taxes as “head of household” by claiming one of the children as a dependent, and the one who earns less can probably qualify to get major help from the feds to buy a house.

    If each of them works 20 hours per week at low paying jobs, they qualify for food stamps, welfare, HUD housing, free or subsidized child care, energy subsidies, etc., and can end up with a lifestyle that is far superior to that of a couple where both work full time at “good” jobs. It all depends on where you live — the couple with “good” jobs probably live in a major metropolitan area, and will be struggling to buy a house in a safe neighborhood/good school district. The part-time slacker couple can move to a small town with few minorities and have a decent environment for their children without ever earning much.

    All of the incentives to work hard and take care of your own needs have been eroded, and the millennials have little to no shame about using any government programs. This is a HUGE change from the WWII generation, and people my age have seen the shift take place since the 1960s. There is no way to return to the old ways that emphasized self-sufficiency without major societal pain, because so many people have now made important life decisions based on being able to access a wide variety of very generous government programs.

  18. Anon says:

    Note that a person with an iota of logic would recognize and admit that :

    1) The ‘pay gap’ is not due to ‘misogyny’, as men who work like women earn like women (probably less due to AA and FI).
    2) If ‘weak men are screwing feminism up’, then there is no such thing as an empowered, independent woman.

    The projection is total. In reality, it is ‘unevolved women are screwing civilization up’. Now THAT is accurate.

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    But what’s the problem? Men in the UK are acting more like women, isn’t androgeny a good thing? Men in the UK are trending away from being workaholics, isn’t that a good thing? Men in the UK are taking jobs that women used to have, because the jobs they used to aim for are all but wired down as “women only, no men need apply”, isn’t that a truly You Go Girl good thing? Aren’t these the changes that everyone has been wanting and waiting for since the 1970’s?

    Heh.

    File this under “careful what you ask for, you may get it” as noted above.

  20. Minesweeper says:

    @D, you are right, you always said that the inertia of whats happening will continue even if they course correct right now. Trust is not so easily regained after such betrayal.

    I truly dont think the “elites” (sponsored) dumb asses, dont see the picture that we can. They have turned up the heat on the frog over 40 years and now its cooking and floating on the surface. But its not a problem for now, the women get their demands, tax is still paid mostly by men, all is good as far as they can see. Gov debt is growing but the men will pay this at some point – as they always have.

    What will scare them is when men refuse to marry, pay substantial tax, or have kids. They are now importing births in the west due to the decline, but they aint importing tax, in fact importing these births is draining the coffers even faster.

    Only then will they really look at the issue and by then it too late to correct, like the titanic heading towards the iceberg, even with the rudder hard left, port engine in full reverse, the back end of the ship will not miss a catastrophe.

    I did enjoy a article recently on the bbc:

    “”Dan is OK!” Ms Miller wrote online.
    “He was trapped… with the weight of his excavator on his back, and with the boggy dam ground below him slowly slipping away.
    “It was literally sheer mental strength and determination to survive that got him through. As well as being fit, strong and healthy. Nothing to do with luck.

    “Legendary effort from a legendary man.””

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-38902977

    High praise indeed, now thats what men are after.

  21. tweell says:

    It’s not hard to live cheap if you’re a guy. One fellow I know has a beater van that he’s made into a cheap RV. He does most of his own vehicle maintenance. For hygiene, he has a membership at a fitness gym chain – go in, work out a little, take a shower. Food is cheap if you know what you’re doing. He can live on $500 a month, and put away any extra towards his next beater van.

    He can work hard for a few months, then take off the rest of the year. Since he isn’t tied down to a house and family, he can go to where the jobs are. Last time I asked, he said he could live off his savings for two years without getting worried. How many of us can say the same? I can’t, and I have no mortgage or car payments.

  22. Casey says:

    Is it MGTOW or is it employment equity policies driving this change?

    I suspect the latter.

    You see, the entire playing field is supposed to tilt over in the direction of feminists favour….without the 250 lb linebacker on the opposing team tumbling down this embankment and crushing their sorry feminist ass.

  23. Original Laura says:

    @tweell

    I met a guy like this in the early 80s. He dropped out of a nuclear physics degree course one semester before completion. He lived in a one or two bedroom trailer in a low-class trailer park in Southern California, and worked various truck driver, etc., jobs saving every penny until he had $100,000 in utility bonds that paid him $10,000 per year, which he could live on. Never saw the trailer, but he loved garage sales and dumpster diving, so it was probably a hoarder’s nightmare, but he seemed very happy with his life. He continued to work full time after achieving financial independence because he liked his current job.

  24. We’re a few years from people openly discussing it, but nearly all economic growth is based on the productivity produced by Men between the ages of 18-35. It takes significant risk to produce growth, and that is the only bracket of Men capable of producing it.

    Granted, 10 years ago, if you had mentioned the Deep State, people would have called you a nutter. (Even if I knew all about it back then; I know this stuff from personal experience, after all.) Now, it’s being blasted from headlines all over the place. (Which, btw, it a catastrophic failure for the Deep Staters trying to hold onto their perceived control.) We live in an age when things change rapidly, now.

    Also, just as a general point, we’re at the end of an era. I don’t know what the next one holds, but the current one is clearly dying. A lot of the old assumptions are currently dead in the water, so be well prepared. It’s going to get interesting.

  25. Lyn87 says:

    Whenever men out-earn women it is clear evidence of misogyny, right? The ratio is all that matters, right?

    Oops… now women in the younger cohorts are out-earning their male age-peers. Clear evidence of misandry, right? But that’s not how they’ll pitch it. It will be because 1) women are showing how superior they are when they get to compete on a “level playing field” (cough, cough) with men, and 2) men are basement-dwelling, slack-jawed, porn-addled man-babies who need to grow up.

    It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with incentives and female privilege, could it? Nah… just ignore the ever-increasing roar of the pumps.

    Of course the fact that women have everything handed to them on silver platters while men get the privilege of supplying the goodies… and the platters… won’t stop hypergamy, which means an ever-growing cohort of wall-crashing Yugo Grrrlz will be chasing an ever-dwindling number of Betabuxers in the next few years (and whining about the fact that fried ice cream isn’t coming out of their taps on demand).

  26. Scott says:

    LG-

    The whole Micheal Flynn thing is basically the deep state staging a soft coup against the President. Its really weird to see happening here.

  27. And in other news, college-educated American women face the greatest shortage of men,…

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/09/22/is-there-a-shortage-of-marriageable-men

    They only face a ‘shortage’ of men they perceive as “acceptable” in terms of socioeconomic potential, intellectual pursuits, educational level and their self-defined qualifications of an ‘equal partner’ (while Hypergamy seeks a better-than-equitable arrangement) according to what they learned in their women’s studies classes, but, yeah,…there’s a shortage of men by that definition.

  28. RICanuck says:

    @Rollo

    My oldest son is 34 years old and is completing his Sr. year at college. He’s an old guy at college, officer candidate after spending 12 years in airborne infantry. He tells me that in discussion with the younger college girls and guys, that a lot of the girls are feeling fear at the number of young men who say they will never marry.

  29. melmoth says:

    A shortage of men in a country that can lay claim to producing the world’s most attractive men overall (by universal, timeless female attraction cues). The same country can lay claim to having the world’s least attractive women overall (by universal, timeless male attraction cues). But that’s how the dynamic works. Less attractive women>>>>men have to shape up even more>>>>women can dial up their selectivity even tighter.

    Now tatted up Mike, the motorcycle salesman hits the crossfit gym on the way home from his evening finance class while listening to poetry in his car en route. Sally is ears deep in her bucket of Haagen-Dazs.

  30. Casey says:

    @ Rollo

    Is there a shortage of ‘marriageable men’?
    Undoubtedly true from the female point of view (which is the only one that matters).

    The lack of scruples of any journalist to call this out into the light without ALSO calling out the direct cause of this clusterf*ck is beyond the pale.

    Women will never assume any accountability for their direct role in creating the ‘basement-dwelling, slack-jawed, porn-addled man-babies’ they complain about.

  31. Per Desteen says:

    There’s a flipside to the generational struggle here.

    The older generations are remaining employed without the retirement income, yield, or pension they used to have. This is preventing advancement through company or government structures. This is also compounded by the efficiencies brought about by automation, whether in manufacturing, management, or office work.

    These trends will not change without a significant cultural shift, or more importantly a significant increase in interest rates.

    Female behavior will change radically if interest rates were to bump back to 8%.

    Perhaps that should be Trump’s legacy. It might wreck the economy for the elites, but women will lose daddy government. They’ll make rational choices then, or at least the young ones will.

    Older women will serve as a graphic warning.

  32. A.B. Prosper says:

    Frank K. re: Nice things

    In the UK at owing many fun things, guns, cars , motorcycles is a pain in the rear and even where allowed finding anywhere to enjoy them in that overcrowded country is a chore. For a city kid, its essentially not worth the trouble even if they have the extra money after taxes and rents

    Most guys would get more value for a £ 50 steam card than they would any if the more traditional things anyway and they’d get a lifetime of entertainment for less than a few car payments

    The only reason the UK isn’t worse off is pub and lad culture are still a thing and on a subconscious level even the government knows not to meddle to much there.

  33. john smith says:

    “When Harry Met Sally” is no longer relevant. Today if Sally meets Mike she is in for a pump and dump and she knows it. Nice metaphor of “ears deep in her bucket of Haagen-Dazs”. Doesn’t matter how many times she replays “Beauty and the Beast” or “The Princess Bride” or “The Little Mermaid” her Disney fantasy has crashed and burned, and she knows it. Deep down inside she knows it’s her fault but the rationalization hamster won’t allow such heresy to surface so she decides that it is all men’s fault and makes appointments to have her hair dyed blue and get a nose septum ring. A common story these days. MGTOW is the only answer as the ship sinks and the Haagen-Dazs melts. Cheers.

  34. BillyS says:

    Keep in mind that the mythical basement dwelling male is staying with his mother, who is female.

  35. Oscar says:

    @ Dalrock says:
    February 15, 2017 at 11:49 am

    “And the problem isn’t in most cases one young man who has a job offer for a good paying full time job vs one flipping burgers part time. It is more about how hard young men work at every step on the ladder, every decision/tradeoff along the way.”

    When I was in high school, living in the Pacific Northwest, I met a man in his mid 20s who worked on a fishing boat in Alaska. He’d make maybe $25K in one summer (this was early ’90s), then bum around on his motorcycle the rest of the year.

    Apparently, he was ahead of the curve.

  36. Opus says:

    I suspect that men are now taking work that would previously have been performed by women not so much through choice but because they are being excluded. At least that is how it starts and then they would not want to be involved in work where they are on the same or a lower level than a woman and so on until (as happened to the stenographers a century ago) one finds not a single man capable of typing or shorthand – which is then followed by a loss in status for that particular type of employment.

    It is also the case that British workers are much less well paid country than those in the United States and so a lot of effort produces little reward: I was shocked when Stateside to meet a first/second year Law Student who had earned in the summer vacation working as an intern in a law firm (and therefore of little use) the same money (at the then exchange rate between £ and $) as I had earned in England in the previous twelve months – and I, then a decade or so qualified, thought I had been doing quite well.

    As for pub-culture to which A.B.Prosper refers the price of a pint is now £3.40 and pubs are closing at a fast rate such that either gimmicks are needed to keep them open (which ruins the ambience and drives away the regular clientel or they must perforce be Megapubs (Weatherspoons) where the price is much more reasonable though the staff tend not to be fluent in English at least without a heavy East European accent. Most houses do not have basements.

  37. @Scott:

    It was an overplay. Flynn made the one mistake he couldn’t make with Trump, and some of the outsiders used it as a power play to run him out. Flynn probably dithered and obfuscated when asked about the call (probably not remembering the conversation) in classic old Intelligence Hand way. That doesn’t work with Trump because they ran out a full Defense and they looked foolish doing it, all because Flynn didn’t square with the Trump Team. (That’s my read on the situation. He didn’t do anything wrong with the Call, it was his interaction with Trump.)

    However, in an error I never thought I’d see, Intelligence Communities don’t win *open* wars. Their best asset is that no one really knows they’re operating, but they can’t do that now. They’re literally gloating to the press about it. And Trump isn’t watching? You don’t exposure your position to take out a Recon unit.

    Side-point: This is about War Crimes in Syria. For as much bluster as there about everything else, this is certain Fiefdoms attempting to dissuade Trump from ever broaching the subject. But they more overtly they’ve acted, the more actual leverage they’ve given Trump.

  38. As for the topic of the actual post, no one has brought up Taxes. Your marginal income change ain’t grand in the UK for most younger adults. There’s a reason so many Brits expat, after all.

  39. Casey says:

    @ Melmoth

    And that is where men are failing themselves.
    So, so, so thirsty are they that they will date DOWN by 5 or 6 full points on a 10 point scale.

    Nuts to that.

  40. JrSmells says:

    Trump’s tax plan is any single earning $25k or less per year will pay no income taxes. Any married couple earning $50k or less combined will pay no income taxes. The ability for a single guy to support himself and leave nothing on the table for government or women will have been carved into the biblical Commandment tablets.

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  42. Anonymous Reader says:

    Rollow
    And in other news, college-educated American women face the greatest shortage of men,…

    RICanuck
    He tells me that in discussion with the younger college girls and guys, that a lot of the girls are feeling fear at the number of young men who say they will never marry.

    Casey
    The lack of scruples of any journalist to call this out into the light without ALSO calling out the direct cause of this clusterf*ck is beyond the pale.

    Gee, if only someone had seen all this coming…but who knew? Who could possibly know?

  43. Minesweeper says:

    Anonymous Reader says:
    “RICanuck
    He tells me that in discussion with the younger college girls and guys, that a lot of the girls are feeling fear at the number of young men who say they will never marry.”

    its very interesting, but what exactly do they fear ?

    its not like they ever want to be a wife, they dont want a LTR lasting decades or to the end of life either, and if they have kids based on current stats its not that they want the father involved more than the occasional weekend.

    so whats left ? her “big day” – the wedding, divorce theft – cash\prizes and alimony, or could they actually want lifetime companionship and a “husband” like figure ??

    baffling.

  44. Lyn87 says:

    Good call on Rollo’s part to bring in that article about the “shortage of marriageable men” from last year. Wimminz Lib didn’t overturn hypergamy, so as prime-marriage-age chicks are now out-earning their potential husbands, they are increasingly pricing themselves out of the market.

    It’s pure solipsism: they look at what they want in men and think that men want the same things from them. What the average college girl is doing the female version of both AF and BB. She’s catting around like most guys would if they had the same ease of sexual access as young women do (Alpha behavior), and they’re going to school and work, which is how men signal “Provider Status” (Beta signaling).

    As long as that stayed on the margins (like it used to be for some among the UC/UMC), it was no big deal. But now that all girls are massively catered to educationally as a class from pre-K through post-grad, the tide has turned such that women are occupying so many educational slots (about 2/3 of post-secondary students are female), that there simply isn’t enough room for the men to “get ahead” of them and become “marriageable” to a hypergamous girl with a degree. If everyone was on an equal footing the problem would solve itself: men would dominate education like they dominate every endeavor wherein men and women compete against each other directly… but we’re not on equal footing. The educational table is tilted so far in favor of females that a very large group of college educated women are simply going to either marry “down” or not marry at all.

    This is another case of, “Be careful what you ask for: you might get it.” This has a “tragedy of the commons” feel to it: when men outnumber women in college, any one woman who goes to college drastically improves her odds of marrying up. But when women replace men in college en masse, the odds of any individual co-ed marrying “up” plummet.

    But by insisting that women be freed from their side of the social compact and gaining all the advantages of the male side (while avoiding the male responsibilities), they damaged the incentives for men to become providers (i.e., “marriageable”) ,and incentivized men toward shucking their roles under the old deal as well.

    Of course the women don’t like that one little bit. When they said “Patriarchy hurts men, too!” and “You won’t be bound by gender roles, either!” they never thought it through. If men abandon their roles (by incentives or coercion), women are S-C-R-E-W-E-D.

    But enough about that for now. I’d like to address the definition of “marriageable.” If the women were honest they’d have a much or restrictive definition than just “employed.” I don’t look at dating sites, of course, but from the articles and testimonials I’ve seen, the average woman has a pretty long checklist that few men can meet, and she wouldn’t like a guy who did, because despite her cry for a “Nice Guy who wants to be an equal partner,” guys like that don’t inspire female desire. The article points out that the shortage only occurs when you compare “all unmarried women” to “all unmarried employed men.” But if unemployment makes a man unmarriageable, do men get a vote on what makes a woman unmarriageable? How about screening out women who have a BMI higher than 25 and/or a child? Suddenly there’s a massive surplus of marriageable men, or perhaps more accurately… a massive deficit of marriageable women. If we further screen out the larger red flags, pretty quickly you have guys looking for unicorns.

    Gee… where have we seen that before?

  45. Lyn87 says:

    Minesweeper asks rhetorically, “…its very interesting, but what exactly do they fear?

    The average girl has spent her life preparing herself to be a bride rather than to be a wife. Of course the significance of being a bride is that it makes her a wife… but that’s no big deal any more: she can get out any time she wants with most of the perqs and without the icky beta who provides them.

  46. Gunner Q says:

    Per Desteen @ February 15, 2017 at 2:35 pm:
    “Female behavior will change radically if interest rates were to bump back to 8%.”

    Interest/debt is the key. The falling earnings of young men is being compensated for with deficit spending. The Elites control the banks so as the entire society ends up falling into debt, they end up owning everything. Then the crash comes, nobody can pay them back, they confiscate/ foreclose on everything and are the new kings of the world.

    A bloodless coup, if one discounts the fact they had to tear apart the nuclear family to do it.

    @Looking Glass,

    Thanks for the rundown on the Flynn scandal. It’s so big even I in my MGTOW bubble couldn’t avoid it but the only “news” is pundits screaming about whether America could survive his resignation. When the talking heads carry on like somebody swapped their decaf latte for meth, I know the noise is only a proxy for the real story… something they want to brag about but not be honest about.

    Seriously, I get better news reporting from the Manosphere than the journalism industry. Trump should replace the White House Press Corps with us commentators. CIA, meet VFM.

  47. Minesweeper says:

    Lyn87,so they want all the usual and historical benefits of being a wife without ever being one.

    its sad to witness its collapse , bet they never thought by giving everything to women that at some point men just couldn’t buy in any more.

  48. bt says:

    What I find the most interesting is the last paragraph of the article –

    “Millennials today are the first to earn less than their predecessors. While that in part reflects their misfortune to come of age in the midst of a huge financial crisis, there are wider economic forces that have seen young men in particular slide back.”

    Wider economic forces that have seen men in particular slide back? The article cites the research, includes women’s stagnant wages – including reasons such as more men working low paying sectors (not particularly necessary since the stats regarding men’s decreasing wages were the most startling and everyone one knows wages are stagnant overall), but never examines those “wider economic forces.”

    You’d figure that an article appearing in the finance section of a major publication would at least attempt to investigate those “wider economic forces.” However, since they only effect men and might challenge long held feminist beliefs, they are simply excluded. It’s amazing what goes for mainstream journalism now a days.

  49. Spike says:

    The article tells us that the proof is now in: Feminism is Communism in disguise.
    Just as Communism preached that ”everyone is equal”, what it did in practice wasn’t to increase the standard of living of the poor to the level of the rich. Rather, it reduced the standard of the rich to that of the poor, and in Nikolai Ceausescu’s Romania, to the level of the grindingly poor and wretched.
    A large percentage of men, to my knowledge, have always struggled with school. I attended a trade’s school, which was co-ed. The bulk of male students went into wood, metal, plastic work,agriculture – not because they were stupid, but because academic work didn’t suit them. I was part of a minority that went on to university and post-graduate courses, only to find that…academic work didn’t suit me.
    The ”trades school” system has now largely broken down, because it is mainly men’s jobs that have been sent overseas, leaving women’s jobs largely intact. This is because Western economies need women employed so that women can spend money. They do this extraordinarily well. Consider the local shopping mall: hairdressers, shampoos, shoes handbags,overseas travel, jewelry, clothes – all tailored for women’s consumption, not men’s. The restaurant chain is there because working women don’t want to, or haven’t learned to cook. Even in cars, any car salesman will tell you – it is the woman who is wanting a new car, and the type of car.
    A friend who is Czech told me that it would take about 200 years to repair the damage done by the Communists in his country. And the Czech Republic (previously Czechoslovakia) was one of the better-led Communist Bloc countries.

    It might just be possible that, after the Feminist Tipping Point occurs in the West, 200 years of patriarchy might be able to fix the damage.

  50. Boxer says:

    Then the crash comes, nobody can pay them back, they confiscate/ foreclose on everything and are the new kings of the world.

    The problem with that theory is that the elites need things that only an advanced society can provide (electricity, dentistry, clean potable water, etc.) It’s true that the crash would render them up as kings of the world in the sense that they might hold title on a lot of stuff, but without social organization, title is just an unenforceable abstract concept, and if things get too bad, they’ll be in the same situation as everyone else.

    A friend of mine (way smarter than I am) has a thesis about Trump. He feels that there’s one branch of the elites that suddenly realized that perhaps it wasn’t a tenable idea to collapse the whole of western civilization. Some of the elites need a place to live, and America might be what they’re banking upon. Seems legit, in that it has a big moat separating it from Europe and Asia.

    Boxer

  51. I was always led to believe that Gen X’ers like me were the most complete douchebags ever.
    But then it turns out we were mere amateurs at douchebaggery. Nothing but a poor man’s version of “them damn kids!”

    Now go ahead and Google “Millennial men”. There is a non-stop published diatribe of accusations, insults, complaints and disdain reserved for millennials in general, but for millennial men in particular, dating back 7 years plus.

    Do Millennials really deserve this? I don’t know. But it sure is remarkable.

    In the business world, there seem to be a lot of dudes working inside sales and customer service roles, marketing and admin roles – many of these jobs are temporary and not permanent full-time positions.
    That is not abnormal in itself.
    What IS abnormal is the number of men working several consecutive years at this level.
    The incentive for companies to outsource jobs, avoid permanent positions, leverage temp agencies, slash and burn and repeat, is doing young men today no favors.

    Things are already really bad.
    And all of this is well before we observe millions of traditionally male jobs in transportation, logistics and construction get wiped out permanently and replaced by driverless cards, drones and robots over the next 5 to 7 years.

  52. @Gunner Q:

    There’s a reason some blogs have significantly better sources than most of the MSM. Most of this stuff isn’t too hard when you aren’t 25-years old an auditioning to be the newest Monkey/Whore. (Which might be an insult to both monkeys & whores.)

    @Spike:

    Need to go further back a few steps. Communism is one of the Socialism off-shoots. Most of Lenin’s version, if one looks closely, seems a whole lot like a mash up of Talmudic Judaism and Socialist assumptions. (That a huge part of the revolution was funded by Jews shouldn’t come as much surprise. Though they also got purged!)

    Feminism is one of the other Socialist off-shoots. It’s a mash up of the FI and Socialism. Socialism is the dominant religion, we’re just talking about Denominations. (To note, Nazism = Teutonic Paganism + Socialism; Progressivism is Western Protestantism + Socialism. There is a reason the groups both get along and hate each other. They’re all anti-Christian.) But the important detail is that it is the one that got a lot of traction because they could nag to death a lot of low-rank Men who had influence or authority since the 1890s.

    The stuff that has “stuck” is the stuff that’s most devious and tries to be parasitic. Since Socialism always collapses under the weight of it’s own paradoxes, they have to be leeches and not actually run things. Once they run things, the collapse happens quickly.

  53. gunner451 says:

    I think that the details of this might lend insight into what is actually going on but doubt that those details will ever surface. My own opinion is that several things are going on, sure there is a percentage (maybe significant maybe not) that are MGTOW. But for most men the sex drive and the desire for offspring will overpower the low odds (and I’m sure that they know the deck is stacked against them form talking to men in the age bracket) of actually getting through the child raising years with the marriage intact.

    So what is going on? Apart from the top 10-20% of men who will typically still out perform women in pay, the bottom 80% have fewer and fewer opportunities. Most good paying jobs for the lower 80% have either been off-shored or replaced with automation. Add to that that what is left for decent paying jobs are clerical/office type work in big companies or government who have as a policy to hire and promote women over men and I’m surprised that men are not placing even lower than they are. Walk into any government facility in the US and you’ll see it dominated by minority and white women with the only exceptions being police and fire (and even there they are reaching and probably will soon pass parity).

    So what are the guys left with? Low paying job or jobs women don’t want (i.e., hard and/or dangerous work plumbers, welders, mechanics, etc.) that have wage pressure from all the immigrants flooding into the country (UK suffers form this as well, not only from the middle east but eastern Europe).

    Also the top 10-20% is not sitting so pretty lately themselves as you see a lot of pressure by the government to make sure that the corporate level jobs are also metered out to an equal number of women. But even with that would say that they at least are doing well and will probably continue to be male dominated.

  54. gunner451 says:

    Also forgot to mention that the welfare state also provides quite a boost to lower income women’s pay as mentioned above by other posters. If you’re a single male or even a single male with kids good luck getting any of those goodies.

  55. If Female employment rates dropped from high 50% to 30% in the USA, there’d be plenty of Jobs that pay well. Granted, removing all of the illegals will help a lot, as well.

  56. melmoth says:

    Another factor is the phenomenon of “HR.” All those women with degrees needed a place to eat their donuts, thus the HR wings that start to rival the pentagon. Add in female hiring bias for their oppressed sisters (which is hilarious in its egregiousness) and things are dire. Government work? Laughable in it’s racist/sexist hiring. I was once basically chased out of a gov’t jobs office by an old black woman years ago. The board was filled with jobs (that’s what they do) and she kept insisting that “There are no jobs today.” She repeated it several times.

  57. Heidi says:

    Here’s a lovely example of turning your frivorce into blog fodder:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carly-israel-/my-light-went-out_b_10758190.html

    Favorite quote:

    ” I was trying to stay for the kids, for him and in the process I lost myself. Against the advice of family and friends, I left my perfect life and chose me.”

  58. john smith says:

    The rationalization hamster knows no guilt. If someone is incapable of guilt, they are equally incapable of trust. And as we know AWALT, totally quilt free all their lives as their DNA tells them.

  59. thedeti says:

    Heidi:

    I especially liked the 10 things divorce will do for you. One of which is “you get closer to God”.

    You know, I really wish these women agonizing over leaving their marriages would just be honest.

    “my husband is great and I love him. But he’s just not hawt enough for me. He’s boring. I wanna head back out for one last glory ride on the carousel. I really do. Because having young hawt Six Pack guys beats going to bed at 10 every night with my iPhone and a boring guy beat to shit after working 12 hours today to pay for this roof over my head, the bed I sleep in and the food we all eat. That’s why I’m divorcing.”

  60. Melmoth says:

    @ Heidi,

    The HuffPo divorce porn starlet of the day;

    <<<>>>>

    Wow, nice display of how loathsome or, at least, valueless beta behavior really is. No one should need that at this point but it never gets old.

    Another funny thing is how in the list of “thing you’ll find out about yourself during a divorce” she lists her newfound drive to ‘wear out her stairmaster’ or some such thing. Yup, drop twenty for the upcoming branch swinging festival. And the hair is down and well-fleeced once she ‘broke free.’ The pre-divorce misery pic has her frowning into the camera with her hair up in a tangle.

    So transparent. All of it.

  61. Melmoth says:

    Oops,

    My cut and paste isn’t there.

    ——And after that decision was made, and the next one and the next, I heard what I needed to hear from my very favorite author:

    “Go, even though you love him.
    Go, even though he is kind and faithful and dear to you.
    Go, even though he’s your best friend and you’re his.
    Go, even though you can’t imagine your life without him.
    Go, even though he adores you and your leaving will devastate him.
    Go, even though your friends will be disappointed or surprised or pissed off or all three.
    Go, even though you once said you would stay.
    Go, even though you’re afraid of being alone.
    Go, even though you’re sure no one will ever love you as well as he does.
    Go, even though there is nowhere to go.
    Go, even though you don’t know exactly why you can’t stay.
    Go, because you want to.
    Because wanting to leave is enough.”——

  62. BillyS says:

    Faithfulness to her vows and her God is not very high in that one Heidi. Sounds a lot like my soon to be ex-wife. No kids at home (fortunately for me), but she left in her mind long before she filed for divorce. She also has no qualms with violating a key tenet or her faith and even her church (at the time we were married).

    Women can justify whatever they want.

  63. Melmoth says:

    Sadly,

    The guy will continue to go to bed at 10 after working 12 hours a day to facilitate her life of near-royal luxury long after she is gone.

  64. Lost Patrol says:

    I especially liked the 10 things divorce will do for you. One of which is “you get closer to God”.

    True enough, given that she is her own god. A theme is emerging in some of the latest links about women, marriage, and self-righteousness.

  65. Heidi_storage says:

    Oh, she’s a class act; another of her HuffPo pieces is about how you should say “congratulations” when someone is divorcing, rather than “sorry.” And in another, she talks about how the pain she’s inflicting on her son is making him stronger.

  66. RICanuck says:

    @ConstrainedLocus

    I am sick of hearing about how useless and lazy the Millennials are.

    We boomers raised them. Now it can be argued that we didn’t do a very good job. They will look after us when we’re old and the old age security systems run dry, even though we aborted 25% of our own offspring.

    I expect no mercy.

  67. Gunner Q says:

    Boxer @ 4:51 pm:
    ” It’s true that the crash would render them up as kings of the world in the sense that they might hold title on a lot of stuff, but without social organization, title is just an unenforceable abstract concept, and if things get too bad, they’ll be in the same situation as everyone else.”

    They would have the social organization because most people are in debt, too. Traditional gov’t would be replaced with a debtor’s prison-esque system to continue production of goods/services. (Hello, frivorce-industrial complex!) This sort of thing even happened in the Bible. Egypt leveraged Joseph’s Dream (Gen. 42) to enslave enough desperate people to become the world’s first superpower (Gen. 47:13-26). The people even went happily into their chains.

    I’ve never yet heard a sermon on how the Jews built the empire of slaves that wound up enslaving them in turn but it’s true. And history repeats.

  68. Samuel Culpepper says:

    There is nothing new about the gender inversions, be it pay, headship, whatever. My generation has been silently preparing for this. I don’t hear many of you guys mention having beans and lots of bullets and a place to bug out with said beans and bullets? Am I the only one here stockpiling weapons and ammo? The correction necessary to right this ship will necessarily involve violence. I hope you men are preparing for that in addition to all the self-improvement mentioned here.

  69. greyghost says:

    Haven’t read any comments just the original article. That is what MGTOW looks like from a blue pill man.

  70. gunner451 says:

    Gunner Q:
    It is the same thing repeated over and over again. The elites will always look for ways to keep the masses under their thumb. Joseph’s plan transitioned Egypt’s people from landowning to share croppers (at best) but the alternative was starvation. 7 years of famine would have destroyed that civilization and giving out free food would have resulted in riots and a welfare state that would not have been able to climb back up to prosperity after the famine. I noticed that God did not fault Joseph for what he did but rather praised him for it so can’t really say that he did anything bad here.

    Would say that the welfare state has been the worst at enslaving people with their willing cooperation. Just take a look at the inner cities and you’ll see misery, violence and all sorts of other bad things. But the people enslaved to that system will scream, cry and maintain a death grip on it to their dying days.

  71. feeriker says:

    All of the incentives to work hard and take care of your own needs have been eroded, and the millennials have little to no shame about using any government programs.

    Why would they feel any shame? The ceaseless message since childhood, echoed by parents, teachers, media, et al., is that they’re “special” and entitled. It rings rather hollow and hypocritical to such people to hear the generations ahead of them who conditioned them in their behavior suddenly start shaming them for it once the long-term effects start to negatively impact said older generations.

    This is a HUGE change from the WWII generation, and people my age have seen the shift take place since the 1960s.

    The WWII generation (“The Greatest?” HAH!) set the current staus quo in motion. Johnson’s “Great Society” and Second Wave Feminism, to name just two of the toxic forces that spawned today’s chaos, were enacted and enabled by that generation. What little is left of them should be standing in front of mirrors and pointing bony, arthritic fingers of accusation at what they see rather than blaming the younger generation for the inevitable results of their own service to Satan.

    There is no way to return to the old ways that emphasized self-sufficiency without major societal pain, because so many people have now made important life decisions based on being able to access a wide variety of very generous government programs.

    If history teaches us anything (not that most people are willing to learn), it is that human civilization is self-correcting. No, it’s obviously not without pain, suffering, and destruction, but mankind manages to muddle through and move on. When desperate times call for desperate measures,what’s old becomes new again.

  72. feeriker says:

    @RICanuck

    I am sick of hearing about how useless and lazy the Millennials are.

    We boomers raised them. Now it can be argued that we didn’t do a very good job. They will look after us when we’re old and the old age security systems run dry, even though we aborted 25% of our own offspring.

    I expect no mercy.

    Cosigned. As a Boomer from the second half of that generation, I have long admitted that it is obvious that we, collectively, did a pretty shitty job of raising the next generation. In our defense, though, I will say that even under the best of conditions we were confronted by obstacles shat in our path by our own parents’ generation (the “Greatest” [sic] and “Silent” generations), who did us the honors of using us as guinea pigs for their failed modernist social engineering experiments, two of which I mentioned upthread. Shit rolls down hill, intergenerationally.

  73. Correction will come. People just don’t want to contemplate it because: 1) it means their own gravy train ends and 2) the body count is going to be sizable.

  74. The Jack Russell Terrorist says:

    I especially liked the 10 things divorce will do for you. One of which is “you get closer to God”.

    Seminaries like all aspects of life have been infiltrated by lefties and there was no resistance to it from the so-called Christians. Is it any wonder divorce is celebrated by churches when a woman divorces a decent guy because she wasn’t haaaaapy. I know a boiler maker who works about six months a year. After that you are just working for the system. He has a nice home in a great area, not debts.

  75. Seminaries were one of the out-right first targets, actually, being converged, in some cases, in the 19th Century.

  76. feeriker says:

    They only face a ‘shortage’ of men they perceive as “acceptable” in terms of socioeconomic potential, intellectual pursuits, educational level and their self-defined qualifications of an ‘equal partner’ (while Hypergamy seeks a better-than-equitable arrangement) according to what they learned in their women’s studies classes, but, yeah,…there’s a shortage of men by that definition.

    Darn that pesky “Cause and Effect” thing!

  77. Anon says:

    Half of Japan’s married couples not having sex.

    This supports an area where I disagree with many people here. It is not only ever the husband starved of sex and the wife denying it. Quite often, the husband checks out too. It could be because of nagging/put-downs by the wife, a decline in her appearance, or just her incompetence in bed..

    In Japan, fine, there are waifus and whatnot. But the same can happen here in some form or the other.

  78. Will S. says:

    So British millennial women can rejoice that there’s no more ostensible ‘wage gap’, and that they’ve achieved true equality at last! 😉

  79. infowarrior1 says:

    @Anon
    Overwork kills libido you know. Japanese are notorious for ridiculous hours.

  80. feministhater says:

    Store that Huffpo article and the comments, it is a useful tool to remind you of the dismal state of female loyalty, oh right, there is none. You don’t make binding vows when the other party doesn’t have to keep them.

    Send that to Brad Dildoandcocks and have a field day with his response. If the vows are not binding, then they are worthless.

  81. Minesweeper says:

    Wont somebody help her ?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/15/she-won-the-lottery-at-17-now-she-blames-euromillions-officials-for-ruining-her-life/?tid=pm_world_pop

    now granted ive seen males ruin themselves on a win but they generally dont blame the lottery !! This must be a new low in responsibility for females or maybe not ?

    The bad menz made her do it.

  82. greyghost says:

    @ Anon
    I listen to sports radio and one of the things I have notice is the number of ads for ED. (erectile dysfunction) As young men (dumb and full of cum) no problem. As men gain experience and play the role of the traditional male loving his wife and doing all of the “right” things only to be constantly demonized in all areas of society (church included) and finally the women they threw their life away for with commitment speaks of him in divorce court men learn who women truly are. ED is psychological and the idea of men losing sexual desire do to seeing women as they are shoots in the ass the idea of the rape culture. This is especially true of men that desire to create and love a wife and children. (the most hated and disrespected men of society today) A man makes “love’ to a lovable women or fucks a sexy babe and when she is not desired sexually by either type of man she is in trouble. The fix is to pump the loving guy with drugs so he can continue the lie for her. Japanese men along with MGTOW types have said no and come up with alternatives or become the type of men that fuck sexy women. The loving man has been betrayed by society and he is going away. An indicator of what it looks like in the UK is the ,men no longer work towards being the loving family man.

  83. Opus says:

    I concur with Feeriker. We Boomers surely screwed things up big time but the Greatest generation were equally to blame. I think of my Head Master, notionally a Christian but who sought within the realm he ruled over the purity of Communism and with predictably dreadful results – that riot in the movie If (1968) was not so far away from what nearly happened as he lost control of the school – every pupil no matter their age was to be treated the same, and school prefects although required to keep order being deprived of all methods of enforcement*; or again, my father who probably never in his life heard the word Feminism yet was insistent that unlike myself and brother my sister needed a degree just in case the man she married (taken as read that she would marry) turned out to be a loser. I am hoping for wonderful things from Generation Z.

    *He, later, to incur the wrath of The Dailies, Mail and Express for one of his doctrinaire policies not that he cared.

  84. CSI says:

    “It could be because of nagging/put-downs by the wife, a decline in her appearance, or just her incompetence in bed..”

    Incompetence in bed… yes reading a lot of advice sites you see wives complaining about their husbands. They expect their husband to spend all day carefully wooing them each and every time he wants sex, then spend a long time on foreplay while she just lies there passively, then he should spend at least 10 minutes thrusting (he better not reach orgasm in only a few minutes!) while she lies there. And of course its entirely his responsibility to make sure she has an orgasm.

  85. ace says:

    Frank K says:
    February 15, 2017 at 10:30 am

    “Very true, but I suspect offshoring has something to do with it as well. Even if you’re single, why not get a better paying job? That way you can have a car and other niceties for yourself.”

    Because a – slightly – higher paying job doesn’t necessarily equate to more money in the bank. It can however mean a higher tax bracket. Why waste all that extra time and energy for little in return?

  86. infowarrior1 says:

    @CSI
    Well being keeping oneself strong and vigorous helps very much in that department. Having her over his shoulders and doing a Conan the Barbarian in Bed definitely would work.

    But your point is valid yes.

  87. infowarrior1 says:

    @Opus

    The fundamental assumption of the French Revolution and Spawned by the Enlightenment that of Egalitarianism leads to disaster both in its various socialist strains and other strains

  88. Oscar says:

    @ Minesweeper says:
    February 16, 2017 at 3:59 am

    “Wont somebody help her ?”

    Doesn’t anyone read Ecclesiastes anymore?

  89. Minesweeper says:

    @greyghost says:
    “I listen to sports radio and one of the things I have notice is the number of ads for ED. (erectile dysfunction) As young men (dumb and full of cum) no problem. ”

    Morbid obesity is a great cause of ED, but of course to mention that is misogynistic.

  90. PokeSalad says:

    once that happens we will start to see a much stronger attempt to turn this around without actually reinstating the incentives.

    The shaming will continue until morale improves!

  91. PokeSalad says:

    When I was in high school, living in the Pacific Northwest, I met a man in his mid 20s who worked on a fishing boat in Alaska. He’d make maybe $25K in one summer (this was early ’90s), then bum around on his motorcycle the rest of the year.

    Apparently, he was ahead of the curve.

    Taleb might call these men, “Antifragile.”

  92. BillyS says:

    They are only slightly antifragile PokeSalad. The guy in the example had a single summer job. Antifragile implies more than just the ability to stretch a single thing far. At least that is the impression I am getting as I work through the book myself (By Taleb).

    ====

    But all the guys in the ED commercials are fit and trim. The women are also fairly good looking.

    Do we need a real life version with fatties on both sides?

  93. GetItGoing says:

    Honestly, I can’t deal with the madness of it all anymore, and topics like this just reinforce my personal belief that I am seeing “the writing on the wall” for the future of the west. Given how much of a pain in the ass American women are, I’ve come to the conclusion that if I want any hope of a stable relationship with a non-fattie I’ll have to move abroad.

    Being a frequent reader in the manosphere, Dalrock, and occasionally a contributor at Return of Kings, I’ve seen just how dysfunctional society has become, and it’s only getting worse. The hate towards the average white male (and now moderate black men, and gay conservatives, too!) is truly growing and very, very toxic. I have seen it demonstrated time and time again.

    Many of us were hopeful that President Trump could possibly turn some things around, but this year not off to a good start – there are so many destructive, toxic men and women that are actively attempting to thwart the happiness of the average male and tear our societal (healthy) norms apart from within.

    My dream is to get out of here, and live abroad in a culture that’s not sliding into the toilet yet, and where women are not the spoiled chubby princesses that generations of weak American parents have raised here. If I have any hope of having a normal family and possibly kids, it would be a losing bet to do so here. Don’t even get me started on how difficult women are to deal with now, and divorce culture too.

    I’ve already started taking steps to earn money online and learning what’s possible. It’s amazing what kind of world is out there, and for the longest time inside I felt like I – and men in general – here are trapped in a social structure where they’re locked down in a 9-5 where they’re lucky to have any vacation days and the expectation is that they are “good little men” and marry-up and give a woman whatever she wants, with little real regard for themselves; watching their dreams fade away sadly with each year that goes by while constantly being reminded how terrible they are for being male and becoming more dead inside in what feels like a hopeless existence.

    Hopefully one day I’ll make it and I’ll be flying out of Hartsfield International with a one-way ticket for Thailand as other successful entrepreneurs have done. If I succeed, I’m going to do everything I can to encourage other men (especially young ones) to do the same and to escape the plantation, so to speak.

  94. KT says:

    I’m a newbie here, so I am sure this has been said before and may even be verboten here in this “politically correct” charged world we now live. I have worked with many professional women for over 20 years and one thing I can say that is an absolute undeniable fact is that on average women under-perform men at equal levels. Not 100%, but the majority. They don’t get as much work done nor are they as creative at getting things done. So replacing men in upper level positions with women is going to naturally lead to less results with less profit/work being accomplished.

    My other point is what all this is going to lead to. These women think they want equality and they think everything is the same except they have boobs and wear VagHats. They as well as most “progressive men” are welcoming Islam, multiculturalism and diversity (different world-views that are antithetical to their feminism) while they are pissing off their protectors. What do they think this is going to lead to? They may have been made to look like bad-asses in the TV shows but that is only reality in their own made up world of truth, They go down when pushed, slapped or punched much quicker than a man and when their idea of feminism runs its course and more people are fed-up than not they will find out they really are not so tuff. Islam and the world they are welcoming will have them in a burka begging for attention while their old protectors will either convert and participate in repressing the weaker sex, or will be cowed by the politically correct society crap and sit back watching it from their beater van with their buddies. Just watch the migrant’s harassing women in Europe on youtube. You see many local men do absolutely nothing to help them. When it comes down to it this world is ruled by force. Written laws and rules without enforcement are completely useless.

  95. Tim says:

    The ‘men are natural minimalists’ argument is a crucial point and one that I’ve personally come to realize as 100% true in my own life. The reason I worked out, went to college and struggled to become successful was because I wanted to attract my ‘dream girl’. It worked great, too. I made all the right moves and ended up with a great job, tons of money, a stunning career, a nice house and all the toys. But I quickly realized through the actions of my X that I’d been set up by deeply perverted societal expectations and constructs.

    Thanks to information I discovered on the internet, I was able to put all of the pieces together and figure out how ignorant, manipulated and deceived I’d truly become. My illusions and enchantments were obliterated. The existential crisis to follow? Epic. Dang near didn’t make it out of that horrific scenario with my life or sanity. It truly is a red pill/blue pill world and The Matrix is very real. The existence of the internet and the speed with which information now travels will not allow the disposability of men nor this deeply embedded, feminist inspired cultural misandry to continue. These points cannot possibly be over stated. The lies of feminism have created a backlash – and that backlash will destroy Western civilization if feminism’s gynocentric hold on the legal system, cultural norms and social constructs continues unabated.

    I came to realize that, with the illusions and enchantments now totally debunked, I could easily survive on 1/4 of my income, that I needed 1/20th of the space in which I currently resided within to be content and that my life could be 100% drama free without that ‘better half’ in my life. I also became deeply, and I’m talking depths of the deepest abyss deeply, resentful of those that allow and even promote the continuation of this male disposability meat grinder (AKA, supposed Alpha Males).

    The many positive contributions I might have made to society through marriage and child rearing will be nullified. I will soon remove myself from participation as a productive member of society. This backlash started years ago and will continue to grow until the gynocentric state collapses upon itself, and then all will suffer the consequences of their willful blindness, ignorance and participation in the disposal of men for the enrichment and advancement of the gynocracy.

  96. Minesweeper says:

    @BillyS says:”But all the guys in the ED commercials are fit and trim. The women are also fairly good looking.
    Do we need a real life version with fatties on both sides?”

    Do we really need fatties on both sided ? 😀

  97. feeriker says:

    Wont somebody help her ?

    The only thing even remotely surprising her is WHOM she blames for her failed life. The fact that she –or ANY woman– refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for the consequences of her behavior isn’t even worthy of discussion. It is as much of an obvious given as the fact that dogs wag their tails and bark.

  98. Stryker7200 says:

    Anyone have any good sources/tips on how to confront a single mothers ministry? I just found out a church I am considering joining has a single mothers ministry which includes older men having “oil change days” etc.

    This has been the first major red flag come up, the church has even banned Beth Moore studies etc recently and really seems to be sticking to things biblically.

    Would you ever consider writing on this topic Dalrock?

  99. melmoth says:

    Nice post Tim,

    There’s so much to respond to there but I’ll hold it to the ‘space’ issue. I’ve lived overseas for years, including rooms as small probably about 70 square feet. That’s too small for cooking/odor reasons and would drive you insane eventually. 150 is liveable. 200 is nice and 300 would be a mansion, an absolutely huge, comfortable place for me at this point. I like my clothes, so I’d need a few simple clothes racks or dressers (used). A decent bed that I’d pay well for and desk (used) for my laptop. No TV or stereo. I guess there’d be room for a decent easy chair (new, high-end) with a small coffee table (used). That would seem like an indulgence. A small deck for stogies maybe. Small kitchen space and a tiny bathroom. It caters to minimalism and vice versa. I feel like I’m describing a post-lottery win dream home at this point after so many years of cramped living. American homes and their expense are insanely overdone. Now you have the mini homes coming along or even better, 3-D printed homes. So a 300 square foot, 3-D printed home might cost you about 5-10K, ten years from now. My guess is that the gov’t will put all kinds of shit in the way to deflect men from living like that. I’ve already heard that the mini-home revolution has hit some snags because the owners just use generators. The gov’t is trying to insist that you get on their grid. No surprise there. The wastefulness and total lack of ROI of laying down 800k so that princess has her choice of rooms to overeat in just boggles my mind at this point. Another option is the simple, small condo. I’ve grown to like the security of block living. A lonesome house in the woods is a bit vulnerable for the upcoming decline. Anticipate the upcoming clash between gov’t and minimalist males. Plan accordingly.

  100. @Anon:

    We have to be careful with using the Japanese to describe much of anything else. The country has to import 50% of its calories. There are deep instincts within cultures to pare down their numbers when food is an issue. (Rev. Malthus pointed this out quite a long time ago.)

    They also have a collective case of “whiskey d***”, as well. On top of being a low interpersonal trust society.

    @Minesweeper:

    I’m seeing 70% as the figure tossed out for those that come into a large sum of money losing it all within 7 years, but having problems finding the actual study. Either way, it’s a known event. Money changes people, and if you’re not prepared for the change you’ll burn it all. (It’s little different from a Trust Fund Baby, actually. You have no investment in the actual amount of money.)

  101. PokeSalad says:

    the church has even banned Beth Moore studies etc recently
    Could you elaborate on this? I have a friend who is addicted to her pablum and would like some ammunition to help break the spell.

  102. melmoth says:

    There must be a tricky lack of satisfaction in spending money that has no relation to your own work. Not so much that you stop spending, actually the opposite happens, it seems. So lottery winners chase the dragon until their life is ruined, over and over again. It’s not their own work that is behind the cash. Money started out as a representation of work afterall. I have a relative who fits the Richie-Rich mold and I always wondered how it feels for him to put on some nice shoes that were purchased for him. How does that silk tie feel for a guy like that? Hey, here’s a new suit! How’s that Beamer handle? (Even though you’re only superficially employed/index funded.) He rode family money into a small investment house ‘job.’ How does it feel to oversee a 20k wardrobe when it wasn’t your effort that put it there? There must be some hollowness to buying things with gifted money. That hollowness would lead to more spending, like, “Why doesn’t this feel better?”

  103. Minesweeper says:

    @LG, hmm interesting. I would think the only sensible policy is to invest it all and gain a small stipend, maybe rising at the cost of inflation every year and try and maintain your regular life.

    Oh to have that worry…..the plans the Lord has had for me have cost me a decent fortune over the last few years, so im awaiting a crate of gold bars falling from the sky and hitting me on the head at some point 😀

  104. Gunner Q says:

    Stryker7200 @ 11:35 am:
    “Anyone have any good sources/tips on how to confront a single mothers ministry?”

    Suggest making adoption services a part of it. Seriously. Single mothers need husbands, not an endless supply of church services, and children need fathers… easy to find data on that. No sane man will raise another man’s kids so the only practical solution is the mothers must give up the kids they obviously cannot care for, otherwise they wouldn’t need the ministry’s assistance.

    I have no illusion that this idea will be enacted but it will nudge the powers that be towards seeing single motherhood as the social abomination it is. It will also bring the white knights screaming out of the closet, so you can know who not to trust.

    melmoth @ 11:44 am:
    “There’s so much to respond to there but I’ll hold it to the ‘space’ issue. I’ve lived overseas for years, including rooms as small probably about 70 square feet. That’s too small for cooking/odor reasons and would drive you insane eventually. 150 is liveable. 200 is nice and 300 would be a mansion, an absolutely huge, comfortable place for me at this point.”

    It’s enough to survive… I live at 300sf myself… but you can’t DO anything. No workshop. No home gym. No parties. Tiny gun safe. Can’t even keep your car out of the rain & bird splats. MGTOW gives me lots of time but I can’t work on anything bigger than my wargame armies and my social life is nil.

    You look at a homeless bum and see the minimalist ideal. A man doesn’t need daily baths to survive….

  105. Casey says:

    On my drive into work this morning the (idiot) DJs on the local radio stations were bloviating about a viral text coming out of a dating experience by a woman in the U.K.

    The scenario goes like this:

    * Man and woman meets on internet dating site
    * Man and woman agree to go out to dinner
    * Man pays for dinner, hoping things went well enough that he sees her again
    * Woman lets him know post date that she isn’t interested in seeing him again
    * Man texts that he’s disappointed, and requests her to pay for 50% of the date
    * Woman in question pays him the 85 Euro he requested.
    * Woman then throws man under bus by exposing his sin to the world.

    The DJs were stating that 50/50 split should have been ascertained upfront (and it’s easier to do that upfront).

    If this doesn’t dovetail into Dalrock’s discussion on the ‘searching costs for a mate’, then I don’t know what would. Woman are A-OK with getting a free dinner from some schlub they aren’t really into.

    While the sane and rational thing probably should have been a cheap coffee date to keep the ‘exploration costs’ down; she is certainly the bigger agitator by taking their private date ‘public’.

  106. john smith says:

    Tim’s comment is my story to also. Divorce raped with a false DV charge guaranteeing the money laundering, lying, adulterous ex a slam dunk win. My lifetime of work was wiped out and transferred to her, lawyers,and the state. I was hanging over the abyss by the knot in the end of the rope wondering if the abyss was the better option.

    Then a miracle happened. MGTOW found me and I realized there was nothing wrong with me – I was simply one of the tens of millions of men destroyed as the system is designed to do. MGTOW pulled the pistol out of my mouth and I am sure countless others.

    This is how I came to the garden of peace and acceptance. Minimalism is the key. I sold, donated, or trashed the bulk of my remaining possessions. I bought a 24′ long 1987 motor home. Everything I need to live a happy, stress free, and drama free life fits in roughly 170 square feet.

    I made really good money but it was never enough. I now live like a king on 20% of my former monthly net income. I eat better because everything is prepared by me. I drink less because I no longer have a need to escape anything. In short, the ripping out of my wallet, heart, and testicles through my ass was a blessing in disguise.

    No pain, no gain. Did it hurt? Oh my God, yes. But look what I have gained – wisdom, peace, and the truth. My only regret in life is the wasted decades chasing an illusion. My hope is that younger men will learn from us veterans and keep their mouths shut, their wallets in their pockets, and their dicks in their pants (except for professionals).

    Once you go MGTOW you can’t go back. And God bless the deep thinking content providers. They know who they are. They have saved more lives than they can imagine.

    Cheers from a survivor of the gynocentric sausage grinder.

  107. Lyn87 says:

    Re: ED adverts.

    Those things always make me either laugh or shake my head. I’m in the target demographic myself, in that I’m in my mid-50’s. A purple pill, though? Are you KIDDING me?

    As some have noted, obesity is a contributing factor for ED, but for two reasons: restricted blood flow for the obese man and the fact that obese women are NOT sexy. Needless to say, only the first one of those is ever discussed in public. That’s standard fare, though… we discuss the fact that nobody outside the man-o-sphere ever calls women to task for their choices.

    The guys in those commercial are all fit, trim and masculine, and the women are all MILFs who look fantastic for their age. Let’s face it, assuming a guy doesn’t have a panniculus shrouding his genitals (don’t look: I’m warning you), if he comes home to this (you’ll want to look at this one), artificial chemical stimulation is the last thing he’s going to need.

    Of course the real target demographic for ED remedies is not fit guys with hot wives, but guys like Brad Wilcox with wives that look like… well… Brad Wilcox. But who’s going to be inspired to buy an ED cure for that?

  108. Lost Patrol says:

    @Stryker

    I recently posted an anecdote wherein the “honey do list” of a single mother was passed along to the deacon at a local church, because he heads up the widows ministry. The deacons, or other volunteers show up at her house (always bringing along at least one deacon’s wife, because you know) and take care of it. I think single mothers, or should I say heroic single mothers ministries are set to grow and become increasingly mainstream and out in the open in church life. This particular church has a small single mothers ministry under the care of the senior pastor’s wife, that meets in his office unseen by most; but with this level of interest it will likely grow and go overt.

    As Anonymous Reader indicated at the time, he knows of men who do this free work for their “sisters” while grumbling about it; and others who buy in fully to the idea that the single mom = widow in most respects, so no problems. Will be interesting to see how various churches manage this, but there won’t be one in a thousand that will reject her “reaching out” for help. The default understanding is that the husband failed in some way, so she and her children need to be taken care of.

  109. melmoth says:

    Gunner,

    A little offshoot for barbell work would be nice. Gyms are often cool though plus free showers. Other than that, not everyone has the same hobbies as you. I’m no tinkerer at all. Hosting one, max two, get-togethers a year wouldn’t factor into my home purchase whatsoever, whenever that day comes. The point is that 300 sq/ft can be very nice once you recalibrate your perspective (if you care to). Most people just gasp at the thought of something that small. The female mind has established our housing culture. Hypergamous neural-wiring has leaked over into floor plans

  110. Lost Patrol says:

    if he comes home to this (you’ll want to look at this one), artificial chemical stimulation is the last thing he’s going to need.

    Hook us up bro. This is all I can get…

    “The page your are trying to reach is missing, doesn’t exist or has been removed.”

  111. Minesweeper says:

    @Lyn, your 2nd link dosnt work – for me anyway, and the 1st, well, lets just say Ive seen far worse. it dosnt seem so bad when the overhang is on a man.

  112. PokeSalad says:

    * Man and woman meets on internet dating site
    <b?* Man and woman agree to go out to dinner

    There’s his cockup. NEVER go to dinner (ie, spend real $$) on a first date. Never.

  113. Stryker7200 says:

    @ Lost Patrol

    I do remember reading your anecdote. I’m more looking for a scripture defended arguement against a single mother ministry. I think most Christians view it like any other ministry, say the food kitchen. Someone needs help -> charity ensues. So as long as it isn’t disguised as a widow’s ministry, what’s the problem with it?

    Now I think it would be easier to argue against a single mothers ministry that provides assistance to single mothers that are NOT members of the church. Although I still think most would argue that charity can be to any class/group or people regardless of membership.

  114. Lyn87 says:

    Lost Patrol.

    It opens fine for me, although I got that message a couple of times when I was checking the link.. Anyway… here is is written out:

    It’s nothing indecent: it’s just a screenshot of one of the actresses in a Viagra commercial. You can just do a search for “viagra commercial actresses” to see all the women in those commercials.

  115. Lyn87 says:

    Hey… I just figured out how to post pictures here (by accident).

  116. Minesweeper says:

    That didnt work either, lets try this:

  117. Minesweeper says:

    Lyn, thats a very strange url, seems to pop up sometimes or not.

  118. Lyn87 says:

    CRAP! That link keeps working for me, but then disappearing. I’m sorry to clutter the thread with a stupid technical glitch, and this will be my last attempt.

    htt (putting this here so wordpress won;t think it’s a hyperlink) ps://adpharm.net/albums/2015/201504/28/thumb_55063(dot)jpg

    If this screws up, just do the Google search from my last post.

  119. Lost Patrol says:

    @Stryker

    I’m more looking for a scripture defended arguement against a single mother ministry.

    I will be waiting along with you in case something can be found. There are men here that know their Bible inside and out, but I’m betting the answer at almost every church will be what you already indicated: Someone needs help -> charity ensues.

    Especially if the someone is a woman, and especially x2 if a woman with children.

  120. Casey says:

    @ Lost Patrol

    In a world where there are no consequences to those making shitty decisions……….there is no reason for them to cooperate with any reasonable demands made of them.

  121. Tim says:

    Thanks for the compliment, melmoth.

    Yeah…lots of obvious points to discuss/debate. Have seen much of it discussed here on several occasions. Thought provoking stuff to be sure. Am one of those that has explored each and every one of them in great detail and have learned a great deal from all those that post on this site. Have been through them backwards, forwards, sideways and even from the perspective of space and time. Seems most here are well acquainted, so there’s little point in rehash except of course to enlighten the uninitiated, which I too once was.

    Yeah…I’ve explored many of the alternate lifestyles and even discovered what you mentioned about governments looking to prevent people from escaping their grid, or what I’ve learned to see as their Matrix. It’s like no-fault divorce. They will have their alimony, asset division and child support. Seems one cannot escape the wrath of a government scorned.

    Did all of the research you did. Found all of the same roadblocks, but finally found something that really suits me, after a year of careful research in the alternatives. It’s something many would scoff at from the get go, so I’ll not discuss it. The world is chock to the brim with haters and naysayers, not really wanting you to be free but instead trapped as they find themselves. Requires an initial investment of 100K and then a lot more to continue, but you’re unfettered from that point forward. What’s more, it’s completely legal, but you do however need to consult an attorney and get things set up properly, lest ye potentially suffer greatly at some point down the road. It’s not doable unless you have a ton of cashish set aside, which I’m fortunate and blessed to have acquired.

    Everything I accomplished to become a ‘real man’ will not have been done in vain, but will rather serve as that which sets me free. Love that part. Tis ironic. It’s as if God Himself looked down and said, “Oh no. You’ll not have this one.” Hopefully, there’s some truth in that. I’d like to believe so, or hope so, depending on one’s personal bent. If it’s not, then at the very least, I’m one heck of a lucky schlub. A special providence…indeed.

  122. Melmoth says:

    I caught that Minesweeper, unless it was an accidental joke.

  123. Casey says:

    As Dalrock mentioned upthread…..

    “…..but as we’ve seen lately (Trump, Brexit) the seemingly unthinkable can quite rapidly become acceptable if the pain gets high enough.”

    And that is precisely what it will take for ANY return to common sense to become fashionable again.

    High doses of pain, on those that MOST deserve it. (read……….the “don’t judge me” crowd.

  124. Minesweeper says:

    @Melmoth says:”
    I caught that Minesweeper, unless it was an accidental joke.”

    wish I had thought of that, it was accidental, back to the females in the viagra ads, tbh if you need viagra with that, they you really do have severe psych or health issues.

  125. BillyS says:

    Not many older married women smile like that when you come home however….

  126. BillyS says:

    Lyn87,

    Your link had “(dot)” instead of “.”

  127. BillyS says:

    If she was just single, without a past, and a gamer, I would be set. 🙂

  128. Jason says:

    As usual, a lot of really excellent comments here!

    I am Gen X, born during the biggest wave of our small generation in 1970. In 1996, I remember a special report telling us what we GenXers already knew: “GenX is going to earn considerably less over their lifetime their their parents of the late Silent Generation / early-mid Baby Boom Generation.”

    I remember the 1982 Recession (which started in 1979 and ended in 1984 in New England). It was pretty bad all over…but it hit the northeast particularly harder than other regions at the time. My father lost work, was unemployed for over two years. My mother went back to work full-time (she was working part-time since my parents married in 1967). It caused a lot of arguments at the time between my parents as I remember……

    Comments about HR positions……lol, I remember when I was at IBM, if you were sent to HR or had to call HR, you always got an over-educated self-righteous ‘modern woman’ on the phone or in a better office than what you had….and these women didn’t “make” the product. Didn’t “develop” the product. Didn’t “sell” the product. Didn’t have ANY input in the process of getting what the customer wanted or needed……..didn’t have anything to DO with the innovation of the product. Didn’t market or SELL the product…..but boy, these over dressed women knew exactly what was wrong with IBM: Sexism, exclusion, doors-not-being-opened-to-them. They knew all about their rights, special perks, and knew how to be first in line to use their sexuality to get EXACTLY what they wanted and drink the lifeblood of the division. They would scream about how unfair their work was…….yet they made more than me, had a better office than me, had better compensation packages….and didn’t MAKE one thing that MADE the corporation money. Vampires all of them. I always found it funny that they had an “association” called “Women In Technology” and probably all of them had zero idea on how quadratics worked, or even been in one of the labs / cleanrooms at my facility.

    Not to be a jerk…because I have HAVE met a many cool Millennial guys….but many (more than a few) behave like women, gripe about work / rules / expectations “not being fair” and they are into their thirties. Even the Christian ones I mostly associate with talk with a slight lisp, have very soft femme features, wear skinny jeans, and spend a lot of time talking about how “creative” and “talented” and “awesome” and how they are a “leader”

    I smirk to myself, because if you dare call them out…..even politely…you suddenly have fractured and destroyed their very frail egos, and of course you have to apologize because “you were mean to them”

    I am not saying my generation has it’s share of cucks like this…but it’s really out of hand now. The best advice I ever got from a roommate was in 1994 after I was upset and “hurt” about a situation at work. I came home and just went on and on about it. We were both 24, and after going on and on and on about it he just looked at me and said:

    “Why don’t you just be a man. Chalk it up as a learning experience, and frankly, If I was your boss I would not have been as easy on you. I would’ve said even worse things to you because they are true. Deal with it. Did you sit through that PC nonsense in college? We all did, the difference was I knew what was a lie, and you swallowed it because you thought it would get you action with women. Be a man, throw all of that off. Accept the good skills you got out of our overpriced educations, and throw the rest in the dumpster. Stand up for yourself and who you are. I would have yelled at you too! You’re pathetic here, and if you want to feel this way, that’s fine…but don’t bring it in this apartment. I put in twelve hours today, I would just like to enjoy a beer and get some rest. Grow up!”

    We got along well after that considering…and it was probably some of the best “life skill” advice and “truth” someone ever told me.

  129. Melmoth says:

    I’ll never fail to be amused by viagra coming in the form of a blue pill.

    You are what you (need to) eat.

  130. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    Will be interesting to see how various churches manage this, but there won’t be one in a thousand that will reject her “reaching out” for help.

    Because Church of Kumbaya.

    The default understanding is that the husband some man failed in some way, so she and her children need to be taken care of.

    There are churches that take care of babymommas with children by multiple fathers as part of their “widows” support. I have seen this with my own eyes, and while there were church members that were pointedly not happy, none of them were willling to raise the issue with leadership.

    When good men say nothing, looks like just about anything can happen.

  131. Minesweeper says:

    Casey, D, I think Brexit\Trumpening, as small potatos compared to the utter wreckage that feminism and females wielding it have left in their wake.If things do revert to being fair and sensible for men, its nothing I think we will see in our lifetimes unfortunately and even if it does happen, who pays all the men back for what they have lost, and compensation for distress caused.

    The bill would be unimaginable. But then stranger things have happened, and if young women who older sisters have caused all this as worried about men backing out completely, then only their campaigning can bring things back to an even keel.

  132. Anonymous Reader says:

    Stryker, Lost Patrol, others:
    I’m more looking for a scripture defended arguement against a single mother ministry.

    If you want more of some behavior, reward it. Currrently the churches are in the business of making more babymommas. Do babymommas perform any work for the church at all, or do they just show up on Sunday with a list of needs? I’m betting it’s the latter much more than the former. Because babymommas are a subset of “women” and therefore above criticism or reproach.

    How many babymommas can the average church support before the members have to begin depriving their own children to pay for some woman’s bastards? Oh, did I say a bad word? It is still a real question, and since most church leaders don’t seem to “do numbers” I bet the typical response would be a blank, uncomprehending, stare.

    I’m pretty sure there are Bible quotes about people who won’t work, etc. but none of them will fly very far against “Love, Love, Love Endures All, Gives All” Kumbaya churchianity.

  133. BillyS says:

    And mine just disappeared too. Weird. It is not just you Lyn87.

  134. Lyn87 says:

    There aren’t any scriptures that specifically say, “Thou shalt not treat baby-mommas the same as elderly widows with a lifetime of service behind them.” It’s just not there.

    What you will find is scriptures that say that we should:

    1) Support those who cannot support themselves, but if they’re adults they need to prove themselves worthy of it. And…

    2) Work for what we need if we are able.

    The passage about supporting widows does not even apply to all widows. It only applies to elderly women (presumably past the age of remarriage), who have been good Christian wives for many years, and have no-one to take care of them. It excludes young widows, wealthy widows, and widows whose family can take care of them. (See 1 Tim 5.)

    2 Thessalonians 3:10 says, “…if any would not work, neither should he eat.”

    In a nutshell, baby-mommas obviously do not come with a history of service to others and a lifetime of Godly living – nor are they in the same sort of predicament as poor, elderly women during the Roman Empire, so I can see no justification (and certainly no Biblical imperative) to treat them the same as a woman who was impoverished by widowhood after a lifetime of piety and faithfulness. It seems to me that the point is that the church should not be in the business of enabling people to escape the temporal consequences of their own bad behavior: it diverts resources away from the church’s mission and it encourages more of the same behavior.

  135. Scott says:

    Lyn87-

    That line of thinking (and passage) is basically how I would approached the response.

    Bottom line is you simply cannot even think about possibly, maybe, considering walking near the outskirts of discussing how the woman became a single mom without being accused of single mom bashing.

  136. feministhater says:

    Indeed Lyn, very well put.

  137. Tim says:

    “We got along well after that considering…and it was probably some of the best “life skill” advice and “truth” someone ever told me.”

    I like that, Jason. A ton of hidden wisdom there.

    Had a coworker dress me down in the same fashion once. Hurt me pretty bad, too. Was humiliating actually. Some time afterwards, I realized that the anger I felt towards him wasn’t because of what he said, but rather because what he said was true. Nothing pisses people off like hearing the truth about themselves. I didn’t realize it at the time, but from that one experience, my whole attitude, and life, had changed forever. Through his words, I became totally self-reliant. I stopped being dependent. It may have stung bad in the beginning, his ‘truths’, but he put me on a path towards future success and complete self-reliance, simply by waking me up to my own weakness. Whether or not that was his intention, I’ll never know. But I will, in hindsight, be forever grateful.

    Life. Tis mysterious.

  138. Lost Patrol says:

    Jason, Tim

    You provide a good example of how real men respond to a valid critique. It’s precisely why the pastors make it all about the men and not the women as Dalrock has often pointedly shown. Feels right, they can take it, no reactor core melt downs.

  139. Casey says:

    @ Minesweeper

    I agree (and hope) that we will not this turnaround in our lifetimes. I hope as such simply because the way back is abrupt and brutal………although in the end, inevitable.

    Agree, feminism has absolutely wrecked any semblance of a stable society. It inflicts harm on all who it infects……and the innocents around them.

    There will be no campaigning by women to put this back on an even keel. There will only be a massive event from which the obvious answers are revealed as the lies fall away.

    It’s all well & good (snort) to pretend that the keep of multitudes of people, producing nothing, and stirring up shit in the process can be afforded by the few remaining functional people/families,

    It will be a financial event (and not a pretty one) that upsets the current status quo. An event large enough to show the inability of governments to ‘take care of everyone’ as the lie that it is.

    Once having a man in your life is the difference between eating and starving………the obvious solutions will be accepted without debate.

  140. Tim says:

    Thank you, Lost Patrol. That’s very kind. I too sense variances in the ways in which men and women learn and grow. The most life altering, most memorable, most cherished and most precious times in my life were the ones in which I had to overcome seemingly overwhelming odds. It is in those moments that I learned the most about my own strengths and weaknesses. “Know thyself.” Even if the reward of survival from the perceived adversity was slight, the return on the investment, in the long run, the simple joy of having remained standing, was worth more than all the gold in all the universe. My life failures bred new challenges and the potential for future success. Here’s to both failure and success.

  141. Melmoth says:

    I don’t think the dam is breached. Every so often you’ll see articles like that, playing with ‘off the reservation’ viewpoints just to see if they’re ready to be received or to simply awaken the sisterhood for an avalanche of clicks. The idea that women should take some responsibility in their husband’s satisfaction will get blown away by the avalanche.

  142. Melmoth says:

    Every little bit helps chip away, I guess, but I’ve mistakenly seen a canary in a coalmine before.

    Remember Jack Nicholson’s line in ‘As Good As It Gets?’

    On how to write a female character;

    “First, I write a man then I take away reason and accountability”

    I had enough resentment towards feminism then that I thought that line would be the great turnaround/call-out moment. The millions-strong pussyhat rage marches 20 years later makes that a laughable moment of wishful thinking, looking back.

  143. Hugh Mann says:

    No, I think it’s more down to the four or five million foreign-born workers in the UK, the vast majority male, of whom more than three million are Eastern European (i.e. from historically low-wage countries). To them £7.50 an hour (about $10) is a huge wage, and wages have been driven down accordingly. The influx has also made work much more insecure – there are millions on “zero hour contracts” which have no guaranteed working hours at all.

    The marriage incentive (or lack of) is another story – property inflation and low wages are killing affordable family formation.

  144. Tim says:

    (1) Flood Western nations with cheap, illegal, unskilled foreign labor.
    (2) Ship well paid Western manufacturing jobs to slave labor markets overseas.
    (3) Mass import cheap, skilled H-1B visa workers to displace higher paid American workers.
    (4) Offshore medium skilled jobs to foreign labor pools overseas.
    (5) Distract/divert the public’s attention through race and gender wars promoted by the likes of CNN, MSNBC, WaPo and HuffPo.
    (6) Continue to buy off both the left’s and the right’s ‘leadership’ through lobbying and campaign ‘donations’.
    (7) Continue to promote a ‘borderless’ world so that labor pools can continually be shifted to the lowest paid markets.

    Globalism. How you force wealth from those that earned it to those that simply demand it for themselves. Some call it socialism. Some call it feminism. Tis all the same ism, with a slightly different spin.

  145. Anonymous Rhetorical Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    You provide a good example of how real men respond to a valid critique.

    Huh. So what does that tell us about the preachers / pastors / priests who respond to a valid critique with some sort of bellowing AMOG chest beating? Not just Mark Driscoll, although when I think of “bellowing AMOG” I do see a picture of him shouting “How DARE YOU!”.

    Seriously, what does it mean? Suppose a preacher decides to start letting his wife do all the ible readings, and someone goes to him with BIble quotes about “do not allow women to teach”, and the result is a bellowing conniption fit? What does that mean? I’m not citing any example, it’s hypothetical, but I bet other men do have examples.

    tl;dr
    What does it mean when some preachers react to criticism as a woman would?

  146. Samuel Culpepper says:

    @Jason:

    I am gald to see you and others share my sentiments on the uselessness of HR departments. I have been saying this for 15 years . . . HR is the biggest bunch of dead weight in all of the companies for whom I have worked. And, like primary education is dominated by women. Made me think Michael Scott and his hatred for Toby (HR fag).

  147. sclavus says:

    Interesting….this may be why in Eastern Europe the gender pay gap has always been smaller than in the West. Less motivation for men because of stagnating economy?

  148. Dale says:

    February 16, 2017 at 3:59 am

    @Stryker7200
    You asked how to respond to a single mothers ministry. As Lyn would say, this is a wall of text. But you cannot address a serious topic with only a few sentences. A few sentences are only adequate for emotional appeals.

    (Lyn mentioned 1 Tim 5; thanks Lyn, you saved me from searching for it.)

    Here is my response. Remember the command for God’s leader, given in Josh 1:8-9; “Be bold and courageous”.

    First, let’s identify how a woman becomes a single mother.
    Class 1: Women who had sex outside of marriage, leading to children without a married father.
    Class 2: Women who left their husbands.
    Class 3: Women whose husbands left them.
    Class 4: Women whose husbands died.

    So, let’s look at the various classes.
    Class 1: Women who had sex outside of marriage, leading to children without a married father.
    These women did not remain virgins until marriage. What does God’s word say about such women?
    Please read the entire passage from 22:13-21 now. ……
    Let’s re-read the last part:
    20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

    So, the proper way to handle Class 1 women who subsequently marry is not to support them, but to kill them. Why would we encourage and enable those who are so bad for society, so offensive to God, that he commands they be killed?
    True, this passage applies to women who both are promiscuous and then subsequently marry. But the reason that God gives for the punishment says nothing about the marriage; it only mentions her promiscuity. “…her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.”

    So the proper response to Class 1 women is death, not financial support. Or at the very least not financial support.

    Class 2: Women who left their husbands.
    As Lyn pointed out, the source passage on providing financial support to widows, 1 Tim 5:3-16, has restrictions on which widows were to receive support. Many widows were to be excluded; they were not to be given support. This is an important point. Even a true widow was not to be given hand-outs, just because she was alive; she had to meet the Scriptural qualifications.
    One of the requirements from 1 Tim 5:9 was that she must have been faithful to her husband.
    Class 2 is women who left their husbands. Even if 1 Tim 5 was talking about single mothers, and not specifically widows, all class 2 women must be excluded from receiving support because they were not faithful to their husbands; they left him.

    So the proper, Biblical response to Class 2 women is to refuse financial support from the church. Perhaps and individual gives something; that is not addressed. But nothing from the church.

    Class 3: Women whose husbands left them.

    Let’s see what Scripture says about this situation.

    Proverbs 21:9: Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
    Here we have a passage dealing with the exact situation of a Class 3 woman. Scripture makes it clear that the situation being addressed is the fault of the woman. It was her behaviour that caused the husband to decide he was better off living outside of the house. And what we must see and admit, is that the Bible endorses and encourages his decision. He was not evil to refuse to live with her. His decision was not even the “less holy” choice; the Bible says it is “better” for him to live elsewhere than in the house with his wife.
    What is even more striking is that the house the husband leaves may be the house he paid for, or the house that belongs to him from an inheritance from his father. Even at the cost of losing the use of this large asset, the house, it is still “better” for him to leave.
    The man we see here who left his wife is not a bad or evil man; he is being obedient to the advice of God’s word. When you criticize the man for obeying God’s word, you are a servant of Satan. Please read 2 Tim 2:22-26. You may not be knowingly choosing to serve Satan; 2 Tim 2:22-26 mentions those who need to “come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will”. It is possible for a good man to be deceived into serving Satan. If you are changing God’s word, such as replacing “widows” with “ex-wives” in 1 Tim 5, it should be no surprise that you will be serving Satan instead of God.
    The man is not told to support the woman he left and neither is the church. We should not be surprised by this, since the woman is at fault for her own problems.

    The next passage is from Proverbs 21:19. “Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and nagging wife.”
    Well, this is interesting. God’s word is repeating for a second time the idea that it is “better” for a man to leave a certain kind of wife. Again, he is losing use of his home, and maybe his children. But God’s word says it is better for him to leave her.
    The man is not told to support the woman he left and neither is the church. We should not be surprised by this, since the woman is at fault for her own problems.

    The third passage about this situation is from Proverbs 25:24. “Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.”
    Wow, God must think that we really need to be aware that there are marriages where it is better for a man to leave his wife than to remain with her. This is the third time we see the same idea. People who either preach or assume that a man is likely being evil by leaving his wife are obviously not serious servants of God. If they were, they would know that God’s word repeatedly admits that leaving her is the better choice.
    The man is not told to support the woman he left and neither is the church. We should not be surprised by this, since the woman is at fault for her own problems.

    The fourth passage on leaving is in 1 Cor 7:10-11. “10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.”
    This is interesting. A wife is commanded to not separate from her husband. But God apparently knows that many women will disobey this command. So for those women who live in disobedience to God’s command to not leave their husbands, God gives them the command to either reconcile or remain unmarried.
    The man however is only commanded to not divorce his wife. God chooses to not command him to not separate from his wife.
    So we see here that if a person is sinning by separating, it is the wife, not the husband.
    This passage does not guarantee that the wife was a bad wife due to her husband leaving, but neither does the passage indicate that the woman should receive any financial support.

    Many of these women will claim their husband was selfish or evil, thus making the claim that it was her husband’s fault that he left, with little or no fault being on her. In some cases it may even be true. But if it was rare for a wife’s behaviour to be the problem that caused her husband leave her, then why does the Bible repeatedly call attention to this situation? It is foolish for us to assume that the husband must be at fault for leaving his wife. It is repeatedly shown that God thinks it can be better for him to do so.
    Since it is very possible that the woman left behind is the source of the problem, why would we encourage other women to imitate her by giving the nagging wife financial support?
    And I see nowhere in Scripture that the woman whose husband decided he was better off without her should be given any financial support.

    So the proper, Biblical response to Class 3 women is to admit that no Scripture says this woman should be given any support, and furthermore that Scripture repeatedly shows she is likely the cause of her own problems.

    Class 4: Women whose husbands died.
    Class 4 is nonsense. Such a woman is not a single mother; she is a widow. A widow chose to remain with her husband. A widow chose to have children with her own husband. Categorizing the widow with the Class 1 promiscuous woman, with the Class 2 unfaithful wife, or with the Class 3 woman whose husband decided he was better off without such a wife, shows absolute contempt for the widow. This is insulting, slanderous, and unacceptable! A widow who meets the standards of 1 Tim 5 is worthy of respect and support; the promiscuous, unfaithful, nagging single mothers are not.

    Conclusion:
    Single mothers should be given no financial support from the church. Only widows who met the qualifications of 1 Tim 5 should be supported.
    This is why I refuse to give any money to a women’s shelter or any single mother’s ministry. If any church does this, in violation of the Scriptures we have read, we should admit that church is a servant of Satan, as described in 2 Tim 2:22-26.

    I will end with a call to action, by those men here who are willing to be obedient to God and his word, rather than to false religious teaching.
    Those religious leaders who change the word of God by substituting “single mothers” for “widows” in the Scriptures must be removed from spiritual leadership. Titus 1:5-9 gives the requirements for spiritual leaders; the terms used in that passage are “elder” and “overseer”. One of the requirements commanded by this portion of God’s word is that the leader “must hold firmly to the trustworthy message, as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it”.
    By changing Scripture, this leader has shown he does not restrict himself to preaching the message, as it has been taught; rather, he is changing the message. This leader has therefore made himself unacceptable for a position of spiritual leadership. I hereby make a motion that we hold an extraordinary meeting, according to article ## of our church rules, so that we can vote to remove Mr. ____ from his paid position of spiritual leadership. If no one will have the courage to second the motion, then you deserve the satanic leadership with which you will be left. Who will stand against Mr.____’s satanic teaching? Get up, now.

    It is likely no one will stand with you against satanic teaching from the “expert”. So, gather your belongings, leave the den of Satan, and do not go back. Your visible stand against false teaching may be the only one others see.

    GunnerQ’s response re telling the single mother to give up her children is also great. Even if the unfaithful wives or promiscuous women do not find a man willing to marry her, at least her children will not be in a single mother home, with it’s dramatically increased risks for creating children involved in rape, crime, school drop outs, failed marriages, etc.
    Anyone know of any studies that compare crime rates for children from orphanages versus children from single mothers?
    And of course what is usually the best option: Give the kids to their own biological father.

    AR’s response of, “If you want more of some behavior, reward it” is also great. Simple logic. No doubt the logic will be offensive to the promiscuous women and dismissed by most religious professionals.

    AR also pointed out that if a good family gives money to support a bad woman, then you not only encourage the bad behaviour, but you are depriving the good family of the results of the father’s labour. Why should his children suffer because she chose to be a whore?

    As Lyn pointed out, 2 Thess 3:10-12 talks about people supporting themselves, rather than asking for handouts.

  149. feeriker says:

    Seriously, what does it mean? Suppose a preacher decides to start letting his wife do all the ible readings, and someone goes to him with BIble quotes about “do not allow women to teach”, and the result is a bellowing conniption fit? What does that mean?

    Obviously it means that he doesn’t take the Scriptures seriously or literally, especially if doing so causes him pain or inconvenience. Odds are almost certain that if you were to apply this test to any randam group of pastors, at least 90 percent would prove tjisto be true.

  150. BillyS says:

    How is a woman reading a Scripture out loud (without exposition on what it means) teaching?

  151. I would extend the argument of the baby boom being the result of the hero patina of returning WWII vets to also hypergamy being served by GI Bill veterans filling more educational slots as a result of their service. This temporary uptick in male participation was the thing that caused feminists to insist for permanent affirmative action edifices resulting in the current imbalanced system.

  152. Anon says:

    Samuel Culpepper,

    I have been saying this for 15 years . . . HR is the biggest bunch of dead weight in all of the companies for whom I have worked.

    Which is why automation and artificial intelligence are gaining ground. Even if a particular employee is productive, all these laws have attached a huge dead weight around his productivity equation. Hence, the entire organization gets zapped. One can hope that the few productive people from that organization dust themselves off from the rubble, and being to work with AI.

    ‘Outsourcing’ was a temporary way around this, but that is only ever a prelude to automation.

    Since, as you point out, women have an extremely high correlation with low productivity departments (HR), and industries (healthcare and education), guess which jobs are more vulnerable to the emotionless tide of automation? The government may try to stop this, but it cannot outspend this tide..

  153. Anon says:

    More on women and productivity :

    It is not that women *cannot* be productive. It is that they hate being productive. Hence, when a strict boss holds a woman to high standards of productivity, she can often perform, but hates her job and her life. The reason has to do with the biological hardwiring of humans. When a woman in prehistoric times had to be productive, that means she did not have a provider of her own; even the alpha male did not think of her as worthy for a slot in his harem.

    That is why when women dominate an industry, productivity drops, as the women are too numerous to be held to productivity. When a woman works in a male-dominated field and has a boss who is not a mangina or whiteknight, and holds her to the same standards as men are held to, she can perform, but hates it.

    So in conclusion, it is not that women cannot be productive, it is that they hate it.

  154. feeriker says:

    When a woman works in a male-dominated field and has a boss who is not a mangina or whiteknight, and holds her to the same standards as men are held to, she can perform, but hates it.

    Unfortunately, rarely ever CAN a male boss any longer demand the same punishing standards of a woman that he does of a man. She can always –and very often does–scream “harrassment!,” “hostile work environment!,” etc., which can –and often does– cost the boss his job. This is why any workplace in the productive private sector in which more than one woman enters an all-male workspace quiickly crashes and burns. The men spend more and more of their time and resources playing janitor, mopping up after the women’s messes and carrying the workloads that the women can’t carry, that their own productivity suffers.

  155. Melmoth says:

    Ask a female Navy enlistee to take her berth on a ship and see what happens. “Uh, no.”
    That’s a court-martial for males isn’t it? Or at least some ‘dereliction of duty’ offense? But the young lady is not court-martialed, she just takes a cakewalk job pushing papers from day one, that most Navy males don’t get until after they’ve shipped out for years and years. When the cakewalk job starts to bore her, she makes a vague accusation of sexual harassment; no identified incident, no identified perp, just an ‘atmosphere’. Retired, full bennies.

    I have not been in the Navy and can’t confirm this but I’m trying to re-write a post I’d read somewhere by a Navy vet that was very believable in tone.

  156. Anon says:

    feeriker,

    Yes, they are itching for any excuse to not be productive, because they hate having to be productive. It is highly analogous to a man who is forced to have sex with a fattie.

    Women *can* be productive if a hypothetical gun is held to their head, but hate it and will tirelessly innovate ways to become less productive.

  157. Anonymous Reader says:

    Melmoth
    Ask a female Navy enlistee to take her berth on a ship and see what happens. “Uh, no.”Because I’m pregnant.

    Another truth that no one in DOD dares to say.

  158. Disillusioned says:

    At most (98%) of churches the elephant in the room is the fact that most women have been very sexually promiscous. Instead of shaming this and calling to repentance, most pastors have been involved in theological gymnastics to justify this. This runs the gamut from ignoring the issue to actually celebrating it and normalizing it. Most definitely they do not talk about it. If they even take a glance at saying something about it, it is the men that get attacked for seducing the women.

  159. Lyn87 says:

    Disillusioned,

    I tend toward more theologically-conservative churches (in fact, I barely consider theologically-liberal churches to be churches at all), so in my experience the standard response to female promiscuity is not justification. It’s still considered to be sinful when the subject comes up… it’s just that the subject almost never comes up. When it’s forced into view because of an illegitimate pregnancy, the immediate response is forgiveness, assuming she claims to have repented.

    That’s as it should be with regard to redemption, but it ignores the real, large, long-term temporal consequences. Certainly fornication is not an unforgivable sin, and I’ll accept such a woman as a sister-in-Christ, BUT that doesn’t mean that she gets treated like an elderly, pious widow or a marriageable virgin.

  160. Thornstruck says:

    @Dale That is a great outline with reference to scripture included. It’s my assertion, within the US in this case, that there are two marriages, Biblical marriage and state marriage, and they are not identical in their description or practice. What the US is experiencing with respect to declining marriages, and divorces due to reduced marriages, is a rejection of state marriage.

    You’ve identified part of the Biblical marriage framework which describe men and women’s expected behavior and consequences of their action in various stages toward and in marriage.

  161. Gunner Q says:

    BillyS @ February 17, 2017 at 9:24 am:
    “How is a woman reading a Scripture out loud (without exposition on what it means) teaching?”

    One, teaching was the original purpose. The Bible was read aloud to teach it to the illiterate. Two, the bulk of Christian teaching involves reminding not learning. That’s why the practice is still continued. And three, the correct response to “If I can’t teach then can I at least pretend to?” is “Don’t pretend to be rebellious.”

  162. feeriker says:

    And three, the correct response to “If I can’t teach then can I at least pretend to?” is “Don’t pretend to be rebellious.”

    But they’re not PRETENDING to be rebellious at all. They’re actuallly DOING it, and quite overtly and proudly at that (pastorbators’ wives, IME, are some of the biggest offenders, actually leading whole armies of other women in the congregation in defying Scriptural precepts for how a Christian wife should behave, undermining their husbands’ authority and leadership at every step of the way).

    Tbe problem, of course, is that nobody will call it out for what it is – almost exclusively due to the fact that they lack any real faith in God and, being terrified of women’s threatpoint, choose pleasing women over pleasing God. They do this even knowing, both subconsciously and through ubiquitous examples, that the latter is unattainable, no matter how much they supplicate.

  163. DeNihilist says:

    A big reason for divorce –

    “So, where does this leave long-term relationships? With a problem, in my view, that can only get worse.

    One reason is that perhaps for the first time ever, there are 6 per cent more men in the world than women. While there have always been a greater number of boys than girls born, historically more men would die in wars, leading to a higher proportion of women in most societies.

    But the absence of a world war for more than 70 years means there is a surplus of men competing for fewer women.

    Also, these women can earn their own living so no longer have to rely financially on men.

    In the past, wives may have felt obliged to offer more sexual entertainment than they were minded to, due to this dependence.

    Nowadays, though, they have a lot more autonomy over their sex lives and, if they do not have the desire — as many say they do not — then they’re less willing to lie back and think of England.

    Fewer women in the population, plus a rise in independence, combined with the increasing reluctance of women to have regular sex with their husbands can, to my mind at least, only lead to one thing: affairs.”

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4228560/Hidden-toll-starved-sex-husbands.html#ixzz4Z4IXcKOS
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Actually pretty well thought out IMO.

  164. BillyS says:

    Lyn87,

    That’s as it should be with regard to redemption, but it ignores the real, large, long-term temporal consequences. Certainly fornication is not an unforgivable sin, and I’ll accept such a woman as a sister-in-Christ, BUT that doesn’t mean that she gets treated like an elderly, pious widow or a marriageable virgin.

    I have found the same. My current church is probably more expressive than yours, but they do not allow women to teach, for example. They do allow women to speak, which would probably bother some here, but I do not see that issue the same way. They still have a 1950s view of men and women in many ways though, unfortunately. I am here now because I believe it is where God wants me, but they need to grow a lot. Still better than many other places, and that is something we must always remember. No church will be perfect.

    Gunner Q,

    One, teaching was the original purpose. The Bible was read aloud to teach it to the illiterate. Two, the bulk of Christian teaching involves reminding not learning. That’s why the practice is still continued. And three, the correct response to “If I can’t teach then can I at least pretend to?” is “Don’t pretend to be rebellious.”

    I still don’t see it, as long as she doesn’t expound on what she read. I suppose I might take issue if she added a lot of intonation and such to create a focus, but I still don’t see how reading the written Word is an issue. Does it matter what voice reads an audio Bible?

    (Though I can’t think of a female version of the Bible I have ever listened to as I think about it.)

    Who picks the Scriptures to read could be a concern, but that would be harder to discern.

    A key point is likely whether Phillip’s daughter’s only prophesied in private. That is not stated, either way.

    [Act 21:8-9 NKJV] 8 On the next [day] we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was [one] of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied

    We also don’t see that the Upper Room early in the Book of Acts was sex segregated. It could have been, based on Jewish tradition, but the indication is that the Spirit fell on all of them and they all spoke, not just any men.

    [Act 2:1, 4, 7-8 NKJV] 1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. … 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. … 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 “And how [is it that] we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

    This does not indicate sex segregation.

    I personally find quite enough things to point out about female rebellion and holding men accountable while not giving them authority to be the core problem that I do not see a need for this. That is especially true since I don’t find the Biblical support for the position outside a single reference.

    [1Co 14:34 NKJV] 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but [they are] to be submissive, as the law also says.

    That would bear deeper research to see what “silent” meant in the context of all the Scriptures, not just that situation. I may dig into it at some point, but it would take some looking at the Greek phrasing and such.

    My wife was plenty rebellious and did not speak up in church.

    I also find the idea that any worship (singing) should only have male voices, to be consistent with the Scriptures. Miriam led praise when they were headed out from Egypt. Anna spoke over Jesus when He was presented before the Lord at the Temple.

    This is a different topic however and I am unlikely to sway any of you, so I will leave it there.

  165. BillyS says:

    DeNihilist,

    At starfish sex and you make a bad situation even worse.

  166. Kevin says:

    Isn’t this the best news ever for feminists? The pay gap is going to disappear. Men are going to quit the manly way and become weak wimps. This is what they want, right? The future is women ruling the world. They should celebrate.

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