Scaring away the competition

Scott at American Dad has an excellent new post: Cartoonish Chivalry hurts daughters  Scott is responding to the popular meme on social media of fathers trying to scare young men away from their daughters:

First, you can’t be serious. Set aside all the stuff you tell yourself and probably your wife about “traditional values and gender roles” or whatever. You cannot, in todays world seriously plan on carrying out any of these threats. You are puffing out your chest to “scare” off the “bad” boys, who know you are full of crap. It feels good, because all the women around you pat you on the head and nod approvingly. You have earned your cookie.

Scott contrasts this “traditional” bluster with his own view as a father who will one day be looking for a husband for his daughter.

When the time comes for her to start looking for a husband, she already knows we are interested in helping her find one and this makes her very happy. And when a young man comes around, he will not be met with a silly cartoon shotgun dad, but a father who wants to help them both succeed at what they are trying to do. We are not setting up an automatic adversarial relationship with him before we meet. I am aware that many young men will be at a very tenuous starting point in their career, development and so forth and I will approach the situation with that kind of sobriety.

The different approaches to suitors reflects the corresponding differences in roles and objectives.  Scott will be looking to find a husband for his daughter, while large numbers of “traditional” men are instead hoping to delay their daughter’s marriage by acting as their daughter’s surrogate husband.  A man who gives his daughter a mock wedding ring, stages mock wedding photos with her, etc. isn’t going to welcome an interloper trying to steal away his daughter-wife.

But the perversion at times goes even further.  While the (hopefully unconsummated) incestuous romantic relationship has bizarrely become “traditional” under the guise of purity, very often these same fathers move from mere surrogate husband to surrogate cuckold.  Many brag about their daughter’s conquests on her carousel ride, with statements like “She’s a real heartbreaker!”, and “She’s looking for a man who can keep up with her!”

With this in mind the cartoonishness of the father-cuck comes into sharper view.  For all of his bluster warning the men rogering his daughter-wife to treat her as a queen, everyone knows this is just the cherry on top of the whole farce.

See also my follow up post:  Romance is sexual.

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98 Responses to Scaring away the competition

  1. Jed Mask says:

    Thank you for your insightful advice on this very serious NEEDS-TO-BE-DISCUSSED topic and ISSUE elder brother Dalrock.

    It’s like fathers would do good to see from the perspective of the young men wanting to “court their daughters” (with the ultimate intention of *MARRIAGE*) by looking as the young men and treating them as if they were their own flesh-born SONS in the father-in-law/son-in-law relationship; instead of getting into miscommunicated “contentious strife” whereas there could be an otherwise, healthy, respectable, “right” relationship between father-in-law and son-in-law.

    Least that’s how I perceive it as for as the good of the marriage since the MAN, husband is the HEAD of his marriage and family.

    The MAN is the one who needs to “reassurance” he has his father-in-law’s “back” in case father-in-law’s daughter throws the “hissy-fit” to drop the “D-bomb” and wreck the whole marriage and created family apart.

    Wise patriarchal “heads” of families know this. It’s needed. Amen.

    ~ Bro. Jed

  2. Pingback: Scaring away the competition | @the_arv

  3. Scott says:

    Thanks for the pingback and write up, Dal.

  4. Trust says:

    Also keep in mind that by the time girls are marrying age, they have been taught by Disney through soap operas and RomComs, and probably the Kendrick Brothers, that the “right guy” is always the one the one Dad doesn’t like.

  5. Ironsides says:

    I’ve run into a fair amount of that preposterous posturing myself, with various acquaintances bragging about how they’re going to threaten every potential suitor with violence, flourish weapons, blah blah. And then everyone coos over them and praises them like they’re heroes. It’s actually quite grotesque.

    If I was young enough to be looking for a wife, I’d wouldn’t be “scared off” by these displays in the sense they’re thinking, but it sure would make me take a long, hard look a lady who’s probably an utterly entitled, spoiled Princess who expects everyone to bow down to her and obey her every command due to Dear Old Dad spoiling her rotten and acting like she’s more than human. As well as the possibility that he’s a roaring jackass who will try to make life miserable for me.

    Good job calling attention to this. (And yes, those purity balls are sick.)

  6. Major Styles says:

    I made a similar comment to a friend awhile back. All this “No man is touching my daughter” stuff is ludicrous at best. A false display of manhood on the part of the father and a shucking of his responsibility in his daughter’s future marriage.

  7. TimG says:

    How much a father knows his own daughter? I presume not as much as her mother. He can’t force the issue. He can guide and lead, but not initiate. I found mothers to be the better matchmaker and they always know a boy who “isn’t” looking. Kids are pretty much on their own these days. Parents will still be blamed for failure.

  8. Oscar says:

    I have a friend who’s 59 and has three adult sons. The oldest married a girl he’d had a crush on since he was 12 (they’re both from farming families) and has three daughters. According to my friend, the younger two “are not interested”. They seem to be going MGTOW, though I doubt my friend has heard that term. I’ve only met the youngest of my friend’s sons, and he appears to have been beta-ized. My friend tells me that his sons claim they can’t meet girls their age who want to marry.

    I have four sons, from 14 years old to 6 months old. I fear for their future prospects. That’s why I started reading Scotts old blog, “The Courtship Pledge”, in the first place.

  9. Scott says:

    TimG its an interesting point and in my home I do not pretend to “know” my daughter any better or worse than her mother. I provide the overall guiding principles to how this should look some day, and my wife is responsible for priming her for what is expected by talking about it, and modeling a sweet, demure, nurturing style in front of her. I will let you know it goes in another 10 years or so.

  10. Darwinian Arminian says:

    A tip of the hat to Scott for this one. I spent (or wasted, take your pick) my youth growing up in the Protestant church, and will confirm that this “cartoonishly protective father” approach has an end result that is almost exactly as he describes. Back then, pastors and elders were enamored of the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” approach to finding a wife, and frequently provided sermons and messages warning that a young man had no business even approaching a girl with romance in mind unless he first bowed before her father and presented an established plan for marrying and independently providing for her within the space of a year. So what ended up happening? The youth group bad boys smirked and thumbed their noses at the warnings, playing the field with the church’s young ladies until the elders ordered them to leave. The youth group girls were only too happy to follow them out the door, or to settle for dating (and banging) them on the sly behind Daddy’s back. And the pastors, who were now left with a diminished youth population consisting mostly of polite young men in little to no danger of getting a date . . . . chose to double down on the message that had gotten them there to begin with.

    The irony of this is that the same preachers today won’t hesitate for a second to rebuke me for my sinful failure “to grow up, marry, and become a husband and father.” (Al Mohler, I’m looking at you).

  11. Bruce says:

    I’m sure there are (occasionally) men who are willing to use physical violence to deter an unworthy suitor but they would just do it, not make a show of the threat, right?

  12. The Question says:

    “When the time comes for her to start looking for a husband, she already knows we are interested in helping her find one and this makes her very happy. And when a young man comes around, he will not be met with a silly cartoon shotgun dad, but a father who wants to help them both succeed at what they are trying to do. We are not setting up an automatic adversarial relationship with him before we meet. I am aware that many young men will be at a very tenuous starting point in their career, development and so forth and I will approach the situation with that kind of sobriety.”

    I don’t think people realize the extent to which young men are opposed, attacked, ignored, sabotaged or criticized at their most vulnerable time – when they are starting out in life, beginning their careers, and trying to make something of themselves. The difference between long-term success and failure is often in the form of a small modicum of assistance or guidance from an older man well-established in his career.

  13. Scott says:

    The Question:

    I am absolutely counting on that. I have already announced that any of my future in-laws may stay on our property, in a camper if needed in the beginning. We will give them autonomy and privacy, and mentorship as needed. I want a large extended family with lots of babies around. I will do whatever I can to help strengthen that possibility.

  14. BillyS says:

    DA,

    The message may not have been perfect, but are you really claiming modern dating is wonderful? Things would be just as bad or worse without some attempt at reigning hormones in.

  15. flathatter45 says:

    I think the chest thumping and posturing is largely a cultural hangover from an earlier time, when daughters had dowerys attached to them, and a marriage in a small community meant a marriage of clans and substantial transfer of wealth, control of land and patrimonys. A bad marriage could send shockwaves through whole families and villages and set off feuds for generations, so great care had to be taken. Those days are gone in the west, but the cultural vestiges remain.

  16. Caspar Reyes says:

    My daughter (homeschooled, late teens, living at home) has a male friend interested in her, but for her it’s friend-zonely. Both families hang out together since the children are of corresponding ages and share similar interests. He asked her to accompany him on a trip to Texas and back to retrieve his younger sister who was visiting some relatives (we live on the east coast). Another sister would be along for about half of the trip, although I was not worried in the slightest about them misbehaving because of the way they were brought up.

    When she came to ask me about going, I said to her, “You told me last time I asked, that you were not interested in a relationship with him. Has that changed?” She said, “No.” I said, “Then you most certainly may not go. If you were interested, then I think it would be a great idea and a way to get to know one another on an adventure of sorts. But this way you would be stuck in a car for days and days with someone you don’t really like but who’s trying to make romantic overtures, and by going you would give him hope for something that you do not want.”

    I keep telling her that I will be glad when someone comes along to sweep her off my payroll. But I can only say that because she knows I love her.

  17. The Question says:

    @ Scott

    That’s awesome. You’ll be doing your future son-in-law more of a favor than he’ll probably ever realize or fully appreciate.

    I know a lot of successful people, and they all have that one thing in common. Somebody was looking out for them and helping them out when they needed it. When you don’t have that, you get really good at spotting signs of that in people’s lives.

  18. Darwinian Arminian says:

    @BillyS
    The message may not have been perfect, but are you really claiming modern dating is wonderful? Things would be just as bad or worse without some attempt at reigning hormones in.

    I’d claim no such thing. But I’d neither claim that their message was good — or even given with good intentions. It’s of a piece with the same “angry father” threats that Scott shared, and I heard plenty of that as a young man as well. I’ve lost count of the Sundays that I heard a pastor offer to share something funny he’d found on the Internet, only to read off the famous “8 Simple Rules for Dating My Daughter,” list, then smile, wag his finger and say “A warning to you young men!”

    It all comes from the same place, and it all makes a lot more sense when you realize how church leaders view the dating scene. For them, the young ladies are pure and morally upright maidens. The young men are rapacious brigands who will steal them away and sully their honor. The messages these young men get won’t be given to help them get a woman to the altar. They’ll be given to slow them down, or to stop them entirely on their way to the girl. This is true of the “father with a shotgun” threats — they may scare a few suitors away entirely, or just publicly emasculate the others enough so that there’ll be far less of a risk that the girls will even be attracted to one of them. It’s true of every roundabout obstacle course the church will prescribe as part of the “Biblical path to marriage,” whether that’s advising the men to “be friends first,” restricting dating to group activities and church-supervised activities, or eliminating it as an option entirely. All of it has the effect of slowing a man down from getting a wife, but getting the man a wife was never the end goal of the church’s message in the first place.

    At a certain point, a man must realize that the first purpose of pretty much every “dating message” the modern church will give him is to keep the women protected from him. It doesn’t exist to help him. It exists to hobble him. That’s bad enough in that it makes the goal of marriage that much more difficult — but when you couple that with the church’s inability to even acknowledge that women have the agency for sin on their own? Men, the church is not your friend, and the sooner in life you can realize this, the fewer years you will waste following their bad advice.

  19. Spike says:

    Scott raises a worthwhile point, especially in a time when the stupid ”shotgun dad” T-Shirts are appearing all over social media, signalling to all that this is acceptable behavior on the part of the conservative fathers of daughters.
    Women have wanted ”romance” – the Cult Of The Boyfriend – since Victorian times. Prior to that time, there was a binary state – marriage or no marriage.
    Every Victorian novel written by the Bronte sisters tells of a woman who resents her father wanting her to marry a hard-working, earnest and reliable man. She rebels against it and things of course work out fine. I’m certain that the ”Mother of Feminism”, the deeply-disturbed Virginia Woolf, read these novels and assumed this was the worst fate for a precious damsel.
    I don’t have a daughter, but I tell my friends who do that they are to firstly model what a husband is and secondly, be pro-active in finding their daughters a husband when she is of age. All of them think I’m creepy, to which I always reply, “You have two choices. Find her a good dick when she’s looking for one and get her in a stable relationship, or rely on her to sample lots of dicks, with bad consequences. Choose.”

  20. RICanuck says:

    From the first picture on American Dad’s blog entry:
    “Whatever you do to her, I will do to you”.
    Will protective dad be top or bottom?

  21. RICanuck says:

    On a more serious note, a couple of years ago, I had a 12 month contract in Toronto. I rented half a basement apartment in a neighbourhood that was heavily Muslim. There were a lot of headscarves, but no full face veils. Except, very early (4:00 to 5:00 AM) on Saturday and Sunday mornings, when the daughters were sneaking home. I once got to watch a real screaming catfight with lots of slapping and hair pulling, after the niqabs had been ripped off.
    No purity balls for those girls.

  22. BillyS says:

    DA,

    The modern church would be better off with more messages at how to find a mate in a godly manner than ignoring the issue almost completely, as most that I have heard do. You may want to expand your circles a bit more.

    Skipping dating was not the malicious attempt you claim, at least not for all of us. While my end experience is not turning out great, it wasn’t because I didn’t date around enough. Having a support structure that encouraged godly marriages would be far more effective than just crying about a flawed message from the past.

    Few churches properly hold women accountable. That is far more a key issue than anything you note. Dalrock has written about it quite a bit and I did a post recently as well.

    https://billsmithvision.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/exalting-women-and-cutting-men-down/

  23. BillyS says:

    Scott,

    It would have been great if my father-in-law had that attitude instead of undermining my marriage from the start. I am not sure how he and I would have ever clicked, but making connections is certainly worthwhile and definitely a significant job of the father-in-law.

    Too bad my own daughters didn’t want me in their lives or I might have gotten to work at that myself.

  24. Anonymous Reader says:

    As I said over at Scott’s, taking a leaf from Geraghty/Prager who are all about “Ward Cleaver was a stud” (Who? Who? – everyone under 50), so riffing off of that I’ll ask the rhetorical question: What Would Eddie Haskell Do? Most likely listen to all that woof-woof from Shotgun Dad, with lots of “yessir!” and “nossir!” and “you bet, sir!”. Then he’d take that girl who by now really wants to get as far away from Shotgun Dad as possible, go to the movies, cut out early and head out to a private parking spot by the lake.

    The men most likely to be impressed and deterred by all that purity stuff are beta men, who are also the most likely to be orbiters, not predators.

    Scott made a really, really good point when he mentioned that all this chest thumping is mainly intended to impress women. I’ll leave to others what the Bible says about that.

    Finally:
    Do a search on “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”, see what the man who wrote that book has to say now.
    I’ll just point out that the older sister of a friend of mine Kissed Dating Goodbye in her teens. 20 years later she is still not married.

  25. Pingback: Scaring away the competition | Reaction Times

  26. Dale says:

    @Caspar Reyes
    >“No.” I said, “Then you most certainly may not go.

    I encourage you to read Spike’s comment.

    Your answer to your daughter showed wisdom and kindness to the young man. Kindness to another man is great.
    I encourage you to increase your wisdom, by removing the decision about who she will marry from your daughter entirely. A father is far more likely to be impressed by long-lasting and positively-valuable attributes than an emotional woman.
    If you say you follow God, then I encourage you to search God’s Word for what is written about a man seeking to get a particular woman for a wife. Does the suitor need to impress or negotiate with the young woman? Or does he make arrangements with her father?

  27. Applauding a daughter’s dating exploits might be another symptom of a “sports dad” with no male children, a phenom that Sailer has pointed out on many occasions. There’s a degree of transferrence.

  28. “The men most likely to be impressed and deterred by all that purity stuff are beta men”

    Exactly. Why would I, as a father, want my daughter to date only men who are comfortable with danger and risky behaviour?

  29. tsotha says:

    My friend tells me that his sons claim they can’t meet girls their age who want to marry.

    The culture is actively setting young people up for failure. Women are pressured to wait until they’ve developed a career before they think about marriage, which incentivizes men to ignore long term development infavor of cultivating the bad boy image that’s going to get them sex before they’re in their 30s.

    It does no good for young men to look for marriage without corresponding numbers of young women. I’m sure the really attractive, successful, charismatic guys can find wives, but that’s only 20% or so of the population, and those are the guys who are benefit the most from the trend to late marriage.

  30. “At a certain point, a man must realize that the first purpose of pretty much every “dating message” the modern church will give him is to keep the women protected from him. It doesn’t exist to help him. It exists to hobble him. That’s bad enough in that it makes the goal of marriage that much more difficult — but when you couple that with the church’s inability to even acknowledge that women have the agency for sin on their own? Men, the church is not your friend, and the sooner in life you can realize this, the fewer years you will waste following their bad advice.”

    For all the emphasis about being “family-friendly churches” and the preaching about “strong families”, I have never, ever, heard one sermon preached from the pulpit or a youth / young adult group discussion [1] about preparing boys and girls for marriage without abstenance from sex [1] being its main theme [2]. The modern church is obsessed with sex while having no inkling of an idea about the nature of females and preaching (or rather admonishing) to the wrong audience.

    [1] I attended my first church when I was 17. I got married at 40 (last year) and am on an on-the-job training as a husband, leader and unofficial main housekeeper now.

    [2] There’s nothing wrong with preaching about that but not to the point of… obsession. And on a personal note, this has very much hampered the sexual relationship with my wife.

  31. SirHamster says:

    The message may not have been perfect, but are you really claiming modern dating is wonderful? Things would be just as bad or worse without some attempt at reigning hormones in.

    That message was not just not perfect. My youth group did the book and talks. “I’m not ready for marriage, so I guess I just do nothing with girls until I’m an adult.” Turns out there are some interpersonal skills that can be developed between puberty and marriage.

    Its only solution to the modern dating problem is to put the burden on men – “you need to try harder and be holier”. The Red Pill and the cock carousel came as a nasty surprise. Turns out women aren’t innately good but are led astray when I fail to be holy.

    It undermines the credibility of the church when it sets young men up for failure. Why would those young men come back after?

  32. Oscar says:

    @ Hmm says:
    February 1, 2017 at 6:52 pm

    “Here’s an article about Josh Harris’ ‘apology tour’”

    Joshua Harris was an unmarried 21-year-old when he wrote that book; not exactly elder material. If the people who read that book had read the Bible instead, they wouldn’t have taken him so seriously. For example…

    “When we were dating, we had sex. Because of the shameful purity movement rhetoric we learned from your book, sex became tainted. To this day, I cannot be intimate with my wife without feeling like I’m doing something wrong. Sinful. Impure. We both adored your book as young people. And I believe our diligent commitment to your ideas, and our ‘failing to stay pure until marriage’ has permanently damaged our relationship. Years of truth and counseling later, I cannot get the subconscious idea out of my head that I am doing something wrong. Damn you.”

    Those are the words of a man who believes Josh Harris more than he believes God, which makes Josh Harris god. When his false god (Josh Harris) inevitably failed him, the man who wrote those words became angry at his false god, and now curses him. But he still refuses to believe the real God, who tells him that sex is sanctified by marriage, and he is forgiven for his past sins.

    The moral of this story is; don’t make a false god out of a naive 21-year-old, or anyone else for that matter.

  33. Anon says:

    Dalrock said :

    But the perversion at times goes even further. While the (hopefully unconsummated) incestuous romantic relationship has bizarrely become “traditional” under the guise of purity, very often these same fathers move from mere surrogate husband to surrogate cuckold.

    Whoa! This is harsher than I have seen from Dalrock in the past. But I like it, since cuckservatives and lefty fathers deserve no less.

    The recent quadrupling down of cuckservatives has provoked a wide range of red-pillers (including myself) into a new tier of anger that we were not at before. That means the reckoning for cuckservatives is near.

    The good news is that unlike ‘feminists’, at least these fathers are incurring the full cost of their stupidity. When the father is 75 and the daughter is 40, he will still be supporting her financially in a variety of ways.

  34. BillyS says:

    So are you really arguing sex before marriage is fine Oscar?

    The guy’s sin is causing him problems now. He needs to repent and deal with that. Blaming Josh Harris for his problems is like blaming the preacher because you feel guilty for sin.

    My beliefs in that area were formed years before that book was written, but I believed the same idea. The dating culture of that time was quite immoral and prepared people for divorce. I can find no evidence of widespread dating in the Scriptures, so claiming it is great is rather shortsighted, at best.

    The problem is that few want to follow God’s plans and try their own path. This may be sex outside marriage, pushing off marriage, worshiping women, or any number of things. The entire system is flawed and pinning it all on an effort to avoid dating is idiotic.

    Does anyone here really advocate lots of dating? Are you really saying that is a productive route, especially when considered in the Christian context of this blog?

  35. Boxer says:

    Dear Anon:

    While nobody does it quite as well as Dalrock, this topic has been approached before, on Cane Caldo’s blog. (Whether you like or agree with him or not, he puts out excellent content over there — just not as often as I’d like.)

    https://canecaldo.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/neither-saved-nor-spent-but-invested/#comment-5546

    I’m really glad this bizarro Electra complex nonsense is being discussed by the heavy hitters. Cheers to Scott also, for starting the topic up.

    Boxer

  36. Boxer says:

    Some of you guys are assuming something salacious in these inappropriate father-daughter relationships, but it’s not necessary for the father and daughter to have physical sex. The problem is actually fairly well understood (Freud and Jung both wrote article after article about this stuff).

    A man who is closed off from psychological feelings of intimacy by his wife will often transfer some of his libidinal energies to his daughter. In doing so he gets to transcend a feeling of shame or failure in his loveless marriage. The daughter, too, gets something out of it. She gets to regress into a more infantile state, letting daddy take care of her emotional needs, rather than learning to take care of herself and pass into adulthood.

    If you’re wondering why you meet grown women who haven’t progressed beyond the emotional age of 13, well, this might be a reason in some of those instances…

    Again, it’s not necessary for the father and daughter to have physical sex or anything approaching that. In a strange way, that’s why this unhealthy process is so insidious. It masks itself as a normal relationship, with nothing outwardly untoward; but, at the deep structure, it’s unhealthy for all parties.

  37. “surrogate cuckold”.

    Male version of “Munchhausen Syndrome by Proxy”?

  38. Nate says:

    I have a lot of experience observing this phenomena among friends, family and acquaintances; and have come to realize the reason so many fathers feel this way about their daughters is they perceive, sometimes subconsciously, that their daughters are one of the very few women in their lives who will genuinely love them for WHO they are, in the idealistic way so many men desperately need to love. Many men with a daughters old enough to begin dating are experienced enough in their marriages to realize the cold hard truth of the burden of performance in regard to their wives affection towards them. Acting this way towards their daughters allows them to hang on to their blue pill idealizations of women just a little bit longer, and avoid the terrible emptiness and pain of swallowing the red pill.

  39. Hermilion says:

    Actually, with all respect, you are wrong at that post.

    Aggressive behavior of father toward potential spouse of daughter has deeper meaning then just scare off bad boys – it is a good shit test to scare off those emotionally unstable and not sure of themselves to be good husband for future.

    Evolution personified.

  40. Oleaginous Outrager says:

    it is a good shit test

    So now the boys have to deal with shit tests from Dad too?

    Evolution personified.

    Bollix. This is pussy pedestalization at its worst: that your daughter is so fantastic, some young man, still early in his adult life (and therefore unlikely “be sure of himself”), must run an endless gauntlet of shit tests to earn her hand in marriage. It’s entirely possible to be a thoughtful, protective father without ever resorting to being the parody asshole who is always cleaning his gun with his shirt off whenever the kid comes by to see his daughter.

  41. Höllenhund says:

    @Hermilion

    The guys that are most likely to be scared off by this posturing are exactly the type of betas he wants to propose to his daughter, the guys that are most likely to be open to marriage in the first place. The guys least likely to be scared off are the alpha louts he doesn’t want his daughter to get involved with. He, of course, has no idea about any of this.

  42. Höllenhund says:

    @flathatter45

    This sort of posturing would have equally been ludicrous in 1950 or 1880, but for entirely different reasons. Back then, the average young man had a job, was indoctrinated and incentivized to get married, to display masculine virtues like self-restraint and so on. People generally had large families and social circles, but had little contact with the world outside their smaller community. The chances of a young worthy maiden getting accidentally swayed by some heartless player were close to zero.

  43. Anyone pointed out that such posturing would pretty much ensure any “decent” guy is going to simply write off a girl as not worth the trouble? If you ensure only sociopaths will even talk to your daughter, I think you’re going to be fairly shocked by who she’ll choose to spend time with.

  44. Höllenhund says:

    I think such silliness is another sign that even some normies are beginning to sort of digest the red pill, at least partially. Married couples with daughters generally want their daughters not to delay marriage too far, to get married to dependaple, well-off, decent etc. betas, and to have children, so that they can have grandchildren who look after them when they are old and frail, grandchildren they can brag about to their social circle etc. On some level, they understand that such plans are likely to be frustrated in the current mating market. They’ve seen the media reports about “manchildren”, “Peter Pans”, the growing number of bitter middle-aged single spinsters etc. They probably know that high-value men have many reasons to delay marriage, or forego it entirely. So they know something is going on, but they are entirely clueless about the causes. And they are, of course, entirely ignorant about the sexual activities and inclinations of their daughters.

    I guess one part of it is that even many men, especially older ones and/or alpha types, actually believe in the apex fallacy, They actually believe that a large segment of young single men are having lots of casual sex, using women up etc., that there are hordes of predatory chads out there, “preying” on “clueless” pure young women like her daughter, lying to them, manipulating their supposed thirst for romance etc.

  45. Opus says:

    I enjoy watching Mark Dice especially when he goes onto Venice Boulevard and interviews Millennials. Recently, he, poker-faced, in doing so, posed the question as to whether incest (which it is worth recalling is one the two natural sexual taboos) was acceptable. The Millennials, who have been brought up on the ‘provided the parties are over [insert age of consent in your jurisdiction] and consent’ agreed that of course there could be no possible objection.

    I once, and I must have alluded to this before, dated a woman, though I only came to understand this later, who had formed a sexually incestuous relationship with her own father (her mother being the mad-woman in the attic) such relationship possibly continuing even as we dated. Long short story: she got him and me into ‘a let’s-you-and-him-fight-over-me’ scenario. He, insanely jealous of his little princess who more-or-less had to pretend that she, one of the world’s greatest sluts, was in fact more-or-less (save for Daddy) chaste and virginal. He must have thought that he was being cucked?

    I do not envy fathers of daughters; watching my own sister I observed my own father could not come to terms with her no longer being nine-years-old even and until she, then in her thirties, married.

  46. Hermilion says:

    @Höllenhund

    “The guys that are most likely to be scared off by this posturing are exactly the type of betas he wants to propose to his daughter, the guys that are most likely to be open to marriage in the first place”

    I differ in opinion here – neither alpha nor *beta* nor *delta* will be scared off .. i believe you do not understand what beta male is .. degradation of that role is really – a twilight of civilization. There is nothing wrong in being beta male – there are leaders and followers but not all followers are submissive nor unstable.

    Psychologically unstable delta or omega will be scared off, because that character lacks confidence and is psychologically submissive.

    @Oleaginous Outrager
    “So now the boys have to deal with shit tests from Dad too?”

    Your whole life is a shit test .. and how you live is how you pass it .. or fail.

    Role of father is not to pedestal his daughter, but it is to help her make wise choice.

  47. Hermilion says:

    @Oleaginous Outrager
    “some young man, still early in his adult life (and therefore unlikely “be sure of himself”), must run an endless gauntlet of shit tests to earn her hand in marriage”

    If young man runs away – it means he needs to grow up, strengthen character – and just maybe in few years he will be ready for role he is not *yet* ready – to be a husband and father. The big stupidity of our civilization is thinking every 20 yo is ready to be a husband .. some are not ready until 30-35 yo and only then they should have opportunity for marriage (for their own sake and their wives)

  48. Feminist Hater says:

    Aggressive behavior of father toward potential spouse of daughter has deeper meaning then just scare off bad boys – it is a good shit test to scare off those emotionally unstable and not sure of themselves to be good husband for future.

    Cause we all know that young men are full of confidence and pass shit tests with ease. You’re joking, right? The only men unwilling to deal with shit tests from dad are emotional unstable losers… Lol. Another chest thumping arsehole.

  49. Feminist Hater says:

    Hemrillikon job, young men were ready to marry earlier than 20.. history tells us you’re full of shit.

  50. Jeff says:

    The 1940s and 1950s also shamed hypergamy into hibernation. If you believe like Rollo that hypergamy is part of the DNA in women, then a father posturing would also be part of his DNA. Wives, daughter’s, and women in general need to be put in their place. They need to be shut up, shamed, and shut down.

    Fathers do know best and helping the daughter find someone should take place as well as helping son avoid a girl that will take him to the cleaners in 10 or 15 years. I have a very very difficult time even telling my son marriage is the way to go. Either he sins or takes a chance at becoming a chump. It’s like telling him to go parachuting when only half the chutes open.

    My daughter is most likely going to control her husband until he figures it out. After they married I will be there more for her husband than her.

    As it stands both of my kids are standing at the precipice right now and it is sobering with arguments with my wife because my wife thinks she is an expert in socio sexual dynamics.

  51. Hermilion says:

    @Feminist Hater
    You are too full of yourself to read my post “with understanding” .. Did I said *all* 20 yo? Or *some* ? Dig the shit out of your ears – just sometimes.

    “Another chest thumping arsehole”

    Yes – and I do not give a fuck what you think of it.

  52. Feminist Hater says:

    Hermillion, take the cotton swabs out of your anus. If most 20 year olds are ready to marry, that’s good enough. Help them become men. Shit testing the shit out of the rest will do nothing. They need guidance, they need correction, they don’t need a knuckle dragging buffoon trying to play macho man. They won’t run away, they will simply walk, like men. Real men won’t play your silly games, stop being a woman.

    Your posturing is ridiculous.

  53. Finsals Collons says:

    There is something amiss in the American family. Jung saw it about a century ago. Wives are “mothers” of their husbands so daughters are the sweethearts of their fathers. This explains a lot of things. Pedestalization predates feminism and it is the reason why American feminism is so virulent.

    Welmer (the author of the now-defunct “The Spearhead”) did an epic post about this in his private blog, called “Carl Jung: the founding father of game”. Highly recommended.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20121018203703/http://www.welmer.org/2009/08/13/carl-jung-founding-father-of-game/

  54. AnonS says:

    “Ignore all the easy sex out there, if you jump through all of my hoops you can marry my daughter who will probably divorce rape you because I will never shame her for anything she does.”

    If you want to clean a shotgun when the guy shows up, also have a sign that says “my daughters sign prenubs”. Otherwise what makes your daughter worth the effort?

  55. Lyn87 says:

    Boxer writes the following,

    “A man who is closed off from psychological feelings of intimacy by his wife will often transfer some of his libidinal energies to his daughter. In doing so he gets to transcend a feeling of shame or failure in his loveless marriage. The daughter, too, gets something out of it. She gets to regress into a more infantile state, letting daddy take care of her emotional needs, rather than learning to take care of herself and pass into adulthood.”

    I’ve seen that play out in meat-space. It’s not pretty, although in that case the daughter was the mature one and had the good sense to get the hell out.

  56. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS says:
    February 1, 2017 at 10:40 pm

    “So are you really arguing sex before marriage is fine Oscar?”

    No. Any other questions?

  57. harscand says:

    I have two daughters, and am impatient with them to get married and start making babies. Not trying to drive suitors away.

  58. Chris says:

    Hmm, Josh’s half-hineyed apology is way too little, way too late. The damage he’s contributed to the likes of CORP’s wife is incalculable.

  59. King Alfred says:

    Darwinian Armenian’s comment sums up my experience and observations: “getting the man a wife was never the end goal of the church’s message in the first place.” Definitely one of the most important truths a young man can learn.

  60. Chris says:

    “The guy’s sin is causing him problems now. He needs to repent and deal with that. Blaming Josh Harris for his problems is like blaming the preacher because you feel guilty for sin.”

    Billy, I might remind you of the whole Moses At The Rock incident from the Old Testament. When you misrepresent God and His Word to the multitudes, He doesn’t just shrug it off. The modern-day Evangelical “courtship” model that Joshua propogated – and that you obviously support so much – played a major part in the dysfunction in the formation of healthy sexualities and LTR that Dalrock and others have blogged about.

  61. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hermilion
    I differ in opinion here – neither alpha nor *beta* nor *delta* will be scared off ..

    You clearly have no clue what you are going on about. The simplest explanation for this is: you are female. Another explanation: you are over 40. “Both” would be likely as well.

    A young woman would have to have many good things about her to make putting up with that kind of nonsense worth the trouble, but girls with overbearing fathers tend to be Special Snowflake Princesses, and thus … not worth the trouble.

    So Hermilon, if you actually have daughters, enjoy their ride on the carousel.

  62. Lyn87 says:

    I never bought into the “courtship” fad, even at the time, although a lot of people I knew were into it up their eyeballs. One of the things I noticed was that none of the parents who bought into it had paired off that way themselves, and it seemed like a way for them to micro-manage their children’s lives to a highly inappropriate degree. Even in societies with arranged marriages those intimate details are not scrutinizes by the parents. I’m not a fan of the word “creepy” (my usual reaction to hearing it is to think the person using it is a misandrist idiot), but this is the exception that proves the rule… managing and closely monitoring your own children’s sexual attractions strikes me as pretty creepy.

    We didn’t have the term “helicopter parenting” back then, but that’s what it was: helicopter parenting with regard to their children’s mate-searching. It was one of things that led to what can only be described as emotional incest culminating in some of the things Dalrock noted in the original post. Fortunately, my parents didn’t buy into any of that, even though precursors of the fad were present when I was still single and living at home. Despite the fact that my brother and I are preacher’s kids (PKs), they were content to teach us right, provide guidance, set boundaries, and let us manage our lives in an age-appropriate way.

    There were people who chided them about letting us go to dances and stuff like that, but they basically told those people to mind their own business, and that we were the pastor’s kids, not the church’s kids, and the church didn’t get a vote in how we were raised. My parents didn’t do a perfect job with us (nobody does) but at least in that area they did things right.

    What baffles me is why anyone thought it was a good idea to take mating-and-marriage advice from a 21-year-old virgin who deliberately shunned one-on-one interaction with females his own age. Protestants in particular should have known better, since we have no tradition of restricting ordination to people who have taken vows of celibacy. There’s a reason why Paul wrote that elders are to be the husband of one wife with his children in subjection (I Timothy 3 and Titus 1), not to mention “I suffer not a novice to teach” and “let not many of you be teachers…”

  63. yetanotherdad says:

    I also noticed the Botkin sister’s never found a husband before the sell by date. Someone shared a movie with me from 10 years ago that featured them. It hadn’t aged well, all the examples where women who were waiting, and had already waited too long, and the only marriage featured was clearly setup for failure or misery. Classic case of a girl all about the ceremony and not the beta who managed to get past pastor dad. It didn’t take her long to balloon up and get cold.

    The beta churchian approach certainly isn’t working, but neither is the world’s approach. These are well deserved reactions; marrying a non-virgin girl is setting up marriage for failure. Statistics bear out the wisdom of the OT on this.

    So what are the approaches that do work?

  64. PokeSalad says:

    A man who gives his daughter a mock wedding ring, stages mock wedding photos with her, etc.

    I find this ‘trend’ intensely distasteful and a symptom of some sick pathologies at work.

  65. Boxer says:

    Dear Lyn87:

    I’ve seen that play out in meat-space. It’s not pretty, although in that case the daughter was the mature one and had the good sense to get the hell out.

    I have absolutely no business talking about psychoanalysis. I have no formal studies in it nor any related training, other than just reading the old masters; but, yeah. This is so common a process in today’s society that I’m amazed more people don’t talk about it.

    Neurosis is defined in Freud and Jung as the result of ambiguous signals. When two or more lines of flight present themselves to the patient, he’s overcome by anxiety at his choice, and frequently takes neither. He just stays at his current level of development, never passing the appropriate hurdles to becoming his own person.

    I have some sympathy for the girls who are caught up in these unhealthy relationships (much less for their adult fathers and mothers, who oughta know better). “Gee, I could individuate and work on becoming a suitable wife and mother for some worthy young man… but daddy is right here, and he’ll take care of me… Better to just play along…”

    You’ll meet some women who managed to set appropriate emotional boundaries with their fathers, and most of the time they had a grand-dad or uncle who encouraged them to grow up and get some distance. Often times the parent becomes hostile at this point. This is not coincidental.

    And again, the guys who are overtly sexualizing it are missing the point. Everyone knows it’s not cool to bone your offspring, and those who do it aren’t really the people we’re talking about here. (That’s probably a completely different neurosis.) The eroticization in Electra is entirely sublimated, but it’s arguably just as unhealthy.

    Boxer

  66. Gunner Q says:

    BillyS @ February 1, 2017 at 10:40 pm:
    “The guy’s sin is causing him problems now. He needs to repent and deal with that. Blaming Josh Harris for his problems is like blaming the preacher because you feel guilty for sin.”

    The Churchians wouldn’t do these things if they didn’t work. I’m still half-convinced that sex is painful to women because of all the lies I was raised in and that will probably never change.

    Lyn87 @ 10:10 am:
    “What baffles me is why anyone thought it was a good idea to take mating-and-marriage advice from a 21-year-old virgin who deliberately shunned one-on-one interaction with females his own age.”

    I also wondered how it became a phenomenon but now it’s obvious Harris simply said what all the girls wanted to hear. No wonder advertisers market to women.

    Hermilion @ 7:01 am:
    “If young man runs away – it means he needs to grow up, strengthen character – and just maybe in few years he will be ready for role he is not *yet* ready – to be a husband and father. The big stupidity of our civilization is thinking every 20 yo is ready to be a husband .. some are not ready until 30-35 yo and only then they should have opportunity for marriage”

    How can you evo-nuts cite counterexamples to support your arguments? The average age of marriage these days has become 30 from 20 but contrary to what you predict, marriage has become less healthy not more.

    I suppose an evolution-healthy young man would murder his future FIL to seize and consume his resources, to include a shotgun and fertile daughter(s). Sounds like progress! We don’t need civilization, we need to kill people and take their stuff because it feels so good. We’re supposed to be living in grass huts and excrement anyway, like monkeys.

    Christ offers us a better future.

  67. Anon says:

    I think it comes down to something simple :

    1) The man was never loved by his ‘beta bux’-seeking wife (or any other woman).
    2) The daughter is the first female to love him, even if father-daughter love is entirely different.
    3) The daughter resembles her mother to some extent, but also has some personality traits inherited from her father.
    4) Hence, the father sees this as a ‘re-do’ of the loveless marriage with his wife. This gets creepy, particularly with the mock weddings, etc.

    The good news is that these cucks are bearing all the costs. When the father is 80 and is still financially supporting his 45 y/o spinster daughter, justice is served…

  68. Finsals Collons says:

    @Hermilion

    “If young man runs away – it means he needs to grow up, strengthen character – and just maybe in few years he will be ready for role he is not *yet* ready – to be a husband and father. The big stupidity of our civilization is thinking every 20 yo is ready to be a husband .. some are not ready until 30-35 yo and only then they should have opportunity for marriage”

    The stupidity of our civilization is producing 20 yo that are not ready to be a husband. 20 yo who are kids instead of adults. In general, making sure people don’t grow up even if they grow old.

    See, for example, the difference between a 1943 27 year old and a 2013 27 year old in this link.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/12/26/a-theory-for-where-it-all-went-wrong/

    I remember the TV series “Thirty-something”. Their characters were adults living their lives and having families. Fast forward some decades and you have “How you met your mother”, completely immature thirty-something kids and doing juvenile things.

    What about “Sex and the city”, where a 50yo woman (Samantha) acts like a sex-obsessed teenager? What about Madonna, talking about giving blowjobs to strangers, at the age of having grandkids?

    If nature wanted us to have kids at the age of 35, people wouldn’t get fertile at the age of 15.

  69. Jeff Strand says:

    I have a couple daughters, still too young for dating.

    My wife and I are very Red Pill, and see eye to eye on this. We want to see our girls married in their early to mid 20’s (preferably early rather than mid). And then start making us grand babies. My wife is more hardcore than I am – she’d like them to marry while still teens! (I’m not crazy about that idea because I don’t think you really know yourself yet while still a teen)

    I look at it like – if you’re a young man with a lot going for you, who would make great husband material, what’s in it for you to marry? It’s too risky, and the young women today are not wife material. So we have made a conscious decision to buck this trend by raising our daughters deliberately so that they will be good wife material.

    They see us model behaviors in the home where mom always submits to dad and always respects his headship of the family, never questioning his decisions. They see us laugh and flirt and be playful with each other. They see dad work to support the family, while mom is a housewife…because her family IS her calling and her career. They are taught good spiritual values and pray every night, so they know there is something bigger than themselves that they will have to give an accounting to one day.

    We have them in sewing and cooking classes (they are doing great!). For sports and exercise, they take tennis lessons weekly. Their mom works hard to keep them feminine, taking them to the salon regularly to get their nails done and pedicures and so worth (been doing this since they were real young) – at these times, mom always points out that these little indulgences are only possible because daddy works so hard to provide for his family and what an act of love this is. They often “overhear” (meaning, on purpose) mom thanking dad for doing such a good job providing for the family, and mom expressing her appreciation for it. They see mom happily serving dad in the home, whether it’s making him dinner or bringing him a cold beer, or always doing his laundry and putting the clothes away after.

    We do not encourage our daughters to think about any kind of a career that is a big investment, like doctor, lawyer, dentist, airline pilot, or the like. We will encourage them to take a few years of post-high school vocational training, so they can support themselves while looking for a husband. They will bring no debt into the marriage. They will know how to budget, and will not be materialistic. They are both very fit/slim and already very pretty. They will act and talk like young ladies…not swear, curse, and be gross like a feminist.

    I truly believe my daughters will end up being “good catches” for a RP young man who’s interested in marriage and family formation. And I can’t help but wonder…how many other fathers with daughters are bringing them up this way? I’d wager not many. I asked a guy at work, who himself has 2 girls, what he thought of what I’ve outlined above. He told me that me and my wife are “extremists”. Can you believe that??

    What a world.

  70. Scott says:

    Jeff Strand– your daughters will easily find a good quality man. Even if they are not smoking hot supermodel types, their countenance will shine through with the kind of signals that every man deeply longs for.

    This is what we are betting on too.

  71. Oscar says:

    @ Jeff Strand

    “I asked a guy at work, who himself has 2 girls, what he thought of what I’ve outlined above. He told me that me and my wife are ‘extremists’.”

    Join the club. We have t-shirts.

  72. Anonymous Reader says:

    The 1940s and 1950s also shamed hypergamy into hibernation.

    “Golden age” thinking is not a good sign for a culture, because it looks towards the past.
    I’ve done it myself. The fact is, hypergamy was on the loose in the 1920’s. It may have gotten damped down a bit during the 1930’s Depression.

    But so what? The combination of reliable contraception that can’t be detected easily, plus increased effective machines that make most work much less strenuous has unleashed hypergamy. Don’t whine and wish for the past, recognize the current reality and deal with it as best you can.

    Blue pill men who don’t understand their wives are not very likely to understand their daughters either; White Knights who sought to protect their special snowflakes from the consequences of their actions least of all. The real problem is inside these men’s heads, where they live in some modified Disney movie.

  73. Hypergamy was still rolling in the 1930s, but self-preservation mode was on high display. “Not starving” has the amazing power to make a Woman tingle pretty hard. (Though I’d wager even having Millions doesn’t produce the same effect now.)

    The late-40s/50s also have to be remembered as a time of peak Cultural Confidence in Men. Along with a much lower supply of them. (Wars do that, you know.) Winning a World War, and the confidence that goes with that, lasts most of a life-time, and it shifts matter quite a lot at the fringes.

  74. I remember yuk yuk yukking away 15 years ago when our pastor in Houston read aloud some goofy contract that any boy-come-callin’ needed to sign. It was this same tripe.

    My oldest is a girl, soon to be 26. I remember as she approached 13 and she was pretty and popular, a cheerleader and 1st chair choral and played two sports and so forth….I remember wondering why I was not pinched up about her approaching age of dating. All I heard from other dads in my cohort were ever escalating tales of either dysfunctional worry over their little petals, or over the top intent to do something that we now know was ahead of its time as an idea…..EXTREME VETTING of the boys. All the while i was just not stressed at all. I was not overly permissive and I was surely not apathetic, but I could not imagine holding so much worry about something like that.

    I had, in my circle, many families who were steeped in the trappings of what comprises the veneer of raising Christian kids. one had an incident that tells what I mean. One of the daughters that was maybe six or seven years old called 911 and told the dispatcher that her older (early teen) sister was listening to non-Christian music. Collectively the girls in that home, where the dad would pass out copies of the book “Point Man” to any dad that would accept one, they had myriad problems which some carried into marital failures etc. And he worried himself sick before the kids were teens.

    I took the stuff as it came. I cant say I made the right choices, and those years were not trouble free, but I still cant see how my taking on the absurd parody of the Christian dad of a daughter would have been a better path.

    I agree 100% that this behavior is for women who may overhear. A husband stands to earn circle rubs from his wife and get some Lift from her friends.

  75. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lost Patrol
    The late-40s/50s also have to be remembered as a time of peak Cultural Confidence in Men.

    I’ll go along with that.
    But do not underestimate the “idle hands” issue with regard to American women. Compare an average house in 1935 with an average house in 1955. People still started out on Monday to wash clothes in the 1930’s by building a fire in the yard to heat wash water; people still started Thanksgiving dinner preps by plucking a dead turkey; etc.

    Along with a much lower supply of them. (Wars do that, you know.)

    Eh, in the USSR you would have a point, in the US? Not really. The “lower supply” perception if it existed at all in the US was strictly at the margins.

    Winning a World War, and the confidence that goes with that, lasts most of a life-time, and it shifts matter quite a lot at the fringes.

    So how come those winners raised a whole generation of whining Boomers?
    Remember, Disneyland was built for the leading edge Boomers born in 1945 – 48.

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  77. Anonymous Reader says:

    Here’s a link from Drudge that’s sorta relevant. Tag it with “poor impulse control” for a start.

    http://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/video-of-sex-act-in-hallway-of-courthouse-under-investigation

    The family of the woman captured on a camera inside the courthouse performing a sex act expressed disappointment after seeing the video.

    David, her father who only wished to be identified by his first name, told News4Jax Wednesday night that he’s not ashamed of his beautiful daughter, but merely disappointed by the decision she made.

    Well, given why she was in the courthouse, and the fact that she’s been in jail before, looks to me that she’s made a few disappointing decisions in the past. I’m not the man to judge this other man, but that whole “not ashamed” bit just sticks out like a sore thumb.

    News4Jax went to the woman’s house to see if she wanted to talk about the incident, but no one was home. She has since posted on social media that she does not want to discuss it.

    Good plan on her part. Perhaps she’s learned something?

  78. Lost Patrol says:

    @AR

    Lost Patrol
    The late-40s/50s also have to be remembered as a time of peak Cultural Confidence in Men.

    It was actually Looking Glass, who had the cool green quilt icon before I got here and inadvertently copied it.

    My FiL never played any of these particular “darling daughter” routines with me along the way, maybe because he had several daughters and was looking to unload some; but he did always try to AMOG me in the early going after we were married in any social situation, especially if it was on his turf.

    This comment makes me sound like just another blowhard, but I do believe he lost out on two levels by taking this tack. The AMOGing didn’t last long because I got tired of it early and simply began to avoid or minimize contact with the man, and to push back when challenged which made a mostly adversarial relationship. Mainly though, I am one of those guys you want on your team, and he missed an opportunity to put me solidly at his back. A few words of encouragement, an open respect and friendship from an older man to a younger would have made him a mentor to me; and I deeply honor that sort of thing. Would have helped me, and paid him dividends over the years.

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  80. Spike says:

    ”A man who is closed off from psychological feelings of intimacy by his wife will often transfer some of his libidinal energies to his daughter. In doing so he gets to transcend a feeling of shame or failure in his loveless marriage. The daughter, too, gets something out of it. She gets to regress into a more infantile state, letting daddy take care of her emotional needs, rather than learning to take care of herself and pass into adulthood.” -Boxer.

    I never thought of it, (probably since I don’t have a daughter) but Boxer’s comment demonstrates how women’s rebellion doesn’t only harm men and husbands. It harms daughters as well.

  81. Original Laura says:

    @Lyn87

    I remember when the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” book came out, along with a lot of advice on how parents could “guide” their daughter’s courtship. I thought that it was stupid advice, because steering your daughter to a certain boy and shaming her when she doesn’t want to continue dating him is almost guaranteeing that she will end up divorcing the guy at some point. Psychologically, she has a “free pass” for a divorce, because marrying Mr. Wrong wasn’t really a free decision on her part. It’s good if the girl’s parents really like you and respect you, but that doesn’t begin to make up for Princess not being genuinely attracted to you.

    @empathologism

    If your daughter has known the guy she is starting to date since elementary school, then “extreme vetting” is probably a waste of time and money, although verifying his employment history and criminal history seems sensible. But if the guy your daughter wants to date has no prior links to your community, spending a few hundred to verify his identity, age, professional qualifications, military service, etc., in addition to his criminal history and employment history is not a waste of money. You want to know the downside EARLY, before Lil’ Princess is sobbing that “you don’t understand Erik! Maybe he has made some serious mistakes, but that is all in the past!” Dominick Dunne’s daughter was strangled to death by the boyfriend she was trying to break up with. When he got out of prison three and a half years later, he failed to mention to his new girlfriend that he had been in prison for homicide. The new girlfriend’s father happened to read an article about the murder in the paper and called the victim’s father to confirm that the man dating his daughter was the murderer of Dunne’s daughter. When confronted, the murderer admitted that he had killed the previous girlfriend, but that he had been in counseling ever since then.

    The most sensible advice I ever heard from a father was that he was always very polite to his daughter’s date, and if the daughter dated the guy for a little while, he would always ask his daughter what it was she liked about him, etc. He knew that there might come a time when his daughter would bring home someone completely unacceptable, but until that time he never wasted his ammunition taking cheap shots at decent guys who weren’t precisely what he was hoping for in a son-in-law. By not forcing his daughter to defend her current choice, he left her free to move on if she needed to do so.

  82. Dale says:

    @yetanotherdad
    >So what are the approaches that do work?

    Father approaches a young man that the father thinks may have the appropriate characteristics for a good husband. Speaks with him. Then clearly speaks to invite the young man to come spend some time with his daughter. Guide or stay out of the way as appropriate after that.

    Men are wiser than women. Why allow women to make such a critical life choice?

  83. georgeguy says:

    Just one more reason to commit to homeschooling my children, assuming I ever get to have any. Everyone wants decent young men with promising prospects to sprout fully grown from Zeus’ cloven head. There are no mentors anymore.

  84. Frank K says:

    “very often these same fathers move from mere surrogate husband to surrogate cuckold. Many brag about their daughter’s conquests on her carousel ride, with statements like “She’s a real heartbreaker!”, and “She’s looking for a man who can keep up with her!””

    This reminds me of a male relative whose daughter frivorced her husband. This relative is putatively a Christian. When I asked him about the frivorce he said “she wasn’t happy with him anymore.” To which I replied “what about the vows?” He shrugged and said something along the lines of “scriptures makes exceptions and allows for divorce sometimes”. I asked him which scriptures allowed a woman to divorce her husband simply because she was dissatisfied with him. He of course had no answer and mumbled something about “why stay together if you’re not happy?” At that point I realized that the discussion had ended. Curiously, the reason for her divorce was that her husband “wasn’t keeping up with her anymore.” I even overheard her mother say that “she outgrew him.”

    What is interesting though, is that I learned later that his wife had been once considering divorcing him. She approached her daughter (I believe this was some time before her divorce) and told her what she was thinking. Her adult daughter was horrified. “You can’t divorce dad!” It would have clearly affected her. Yet she was OK doing the very same thing to her own children.

  85. That’s a good comment, Nate

  86. Firesox says:

    The daughters of these clownish blue pilled “No one touches her” fathers are always whores. ALWAYS.

  87. BillyS says:

    A problem with “courtship” or any other approach today is that men have no authority in any relationship anymore, under law. That makes the task very hard. Any approach that doesn’t build on some solid character in the daughter is doomed to fail. Unfortunately society does not reinforce any such positive character, so this is a very hard task.

  88. I don’t understand any of this, not at all.

    I have had many-many girlfriends and I met quite a few (not all, but most) of their dads. Never once did the dad do anything other than kiss my ass and almost “pimp” his daughter into being with me. In fact, one such dad told me point blank that if I married his good-for-nothing daughter (thus relieving him the “burden” of her “upkeep”) he would give me half ownership in his small business.

    Scaring away the competition only happens when you know the boy is a dirtbag. Then you are going to make every effort to try to blow up the relationship.

  89. Darwinian Arminian is so spot on with his description of the “IKDG” crowd. I was part of that. What really shook me out of it was when I finally approached a girl to “court” when I was 26, and it quickly became clear that “leading” (what all good Complimentarian marriage candidates were supposed to be doing) meant “take responsibility for making the decisions… and they’d better line up exactly with what she wants.” That didn’t last long.

    In the aftermath, I started to realize how messed up some of the teachings were (Vision Forum in particular was the recipient of my wrath), and rants from the likes of Mark Driscoll started to sound more and more fake and hollow.

    One of the very first interactions my now-wife and I had was her telling me she liked a particular clip of Driscoll’s, and rather than agreeing so as to not rock the boat (like I would have when I was younger), I told her I didn’t like it, and explained why. The rest, as they say, is history.

  90. Hermilion says:

    @Finsals Collons

    “The stupidity of our civilization is producing 20 yo that are not ready to be a husband. 20 yo who are kids instead of adults. /…/ completely immature thirty-something kids and doing juvenile things. /…/ What about “Sex and the city”, where a 50yo woman (Samantha) acts like a sex-obsessed teenager? ”

    Very true and I agree with your point as a reason why it happens fairy often now to met a 30+ boys … but it does not exactly mean my conclusion is wrong.

    My previous quote: “The big stupidity of our civilization is thinking every 20 yo is ready to be a husband .. some are not ready until 30-35 yo”

    It is both – producing boys who are not able to bear responsibility of adult and in the same time it is promoting an attitude, that such children should marry and start a family. Just see all those single, young mothers – was it irresponsibility of both father and mother? Hell yes. Was it promoted by culture who told them they are ready in place to teach them responsibility?

    It is actually the same phenomenon we both talks about – to produce a 30+ boys you need to promote an attitude that he do not need to be responsible, can have all the fun and – still be a man.

    Therefore practical solution in current situation for those young non-adults is to – grow up and understand world just a little – and it can take time till they are 35 or even 40 .. and some will never be adults.

    “If nature wanted us to have kids at the age of 35, people wouldn’t get fertile at the age of 15.”

    Not true – we have not only our nature, lizard mind and evolutionary garbage, but we have also morality, will and mind to make a good or bad choice – and my stance is – when you are not ready – you should not use fertility (a natural possibility) to bring child to world and make their life a misery, just because you are not capable to care for them. Instead wait till you are ready.

    Civilization is definitely a 15 yo spreading their genes and leaving bastards to misery

  91. Hermilion says:

    @Gunner Q
    “How can you evo-nuts cite counterexamples to support your arguments? The average age of marriage these days has become 30 from 20 but contrary to what you predict, marriage has become less healthy not more.”

    You need to have a little more knowledge of history to understand that what you say is not true – there was also a time when average marriage age of woman was 25 yo and man 30 yo just as 20 yo .. and basically that variance was based on resources .. exactly in times when marriage was healthy young male was not able to find a good women for a wife if he was not capable to support a family .. and woman was not able to find husband unless dowry was secured.

    Just because you remember good old days of USA that was plentiful of resources (free land!) it does not mean it was always like that in history.

    Oh yes – he was not able to find that woman because father would not agree to have a poor scoundrel as a SIL. Used a shotgun for real sometimes .. yep – you really missed a point by a mile.

    Read whole article:
    https://historymyths.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/myth-136-women-married-very-young-in-the-olden-days/

    http://study.com/academy/lesson/average-age-of-marriage-throughout-history.html

    “Christ offers us a better future.”

    Does Christ tells you to have kids who you will not support and marry mindlessly? How so?

  92. Hermilion says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    “You clearly have no clue what you are going on about. The simplest explanation for this is: you are female. Another explanation: you are over 40. “Both” would be likely as well.
    So Hermilon, if you actually have daughters, enjoy their ride on the carousel.”

    Ad personal is not an argument. Good enough response for you is “and you have small hands”

    “A young woman would have to have many good things about her to make putting up with that kind of nonsense worth the trouble, but girls with overbearing fathers tend to be Special Snowflake Princesses, and thus … ”

    Because Hollywood told you so? Right ..

    “not worth the trouble.”

    Good – another gamma scared off .. and i did not even needed a shotgun.

  93. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hermillion

    “not worth the trouble.”

    Good – another gamma scared off .. and i did not even needed a shotgun.

    Dearie, you clearly don’t understand Vox Daiy’s ranking system, you really don’t understand men, and you have no grasp of the topic under discussion. Why are you bothering to comment here?

  94. Hermilion says:

    @Anonymous Reader
    Dearie, you have bigger problem that not understanding Beale ranking – you do not understand irony also.

  95. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ms. Hermilion, you are not very good at this.
    Now then, you don’t understand men, you don’t understand the modern sexual and marriage markets, you don’t understand the original posting.

    Do you have any point besides attention whoring, dearie?

  96. Tarl says:

    Silly cartoonish chivalry…

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