Why can’t women do pull ups? It’s a culture thing.

With the news coming out today that the sole remaining female Marine has dropped out of the Infantry Officer’s Course (CNN, Marine Corps Times*) it seems like a good time to look into why women in the military are having so much trouble meeting physical fitness requirements.  According to the CNN video below from January of 2014, the reason women lack upper body strength is women aren’t taught how to do pull ups.  Here is the relevant exchange between CNN Anchor Don Lemon and CNN Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence:

Chris Lawrence:  What they’re gonna do now, is… looking at better ways to train women to do these push-ups [sic].  There is a feeling that from the time they are girls, girls don’t do push-ups, even women who workout religiously and are very physically fit are not working those kind of muscles and trying to build up that bigger upper body by doing pull-ups.  So, what they want to do is go in and really teach women better ways to train to do this particular exercise.

Don Lemon:  Yeah, working the upper body that’s a guy thing, right?  And I mean, guys you see at the gym with skinny legs, big upper bodies.

Chris Lawrence:  It’s the beach muscles.  It’s the beach workout.

Here is the video, starting with the exchange between Lemon and Lawrence:

All of this is of course a smokescreen in an effort to pretend that standards aren’t being lowered in the process of further integrating the armed forces.  Something has to give, and even if we have a Republican in the white house next year the Obama administration’s decision to open all combat roles to women won’t be rolled back.  Part of being conservative means conserving feminist progress, so the only question now is how fast and how far the standards will be lowered in order to finally complete the construction of our new feminist military.

*H/T The Question

This entry was posted in Denial, Feminists, Military, Traditional Conservatives, You can't make this stuff up. Bookmark the permalink.

115 Responses to Why can’t women do pull ups? It’s a culture thing.

  1. Pingback: Why can’t women do pull ups? It’s a culture thing. | Aus-Alt-Right

  2. Big-Al says:

    Its just so hard to pull myself up to the bar when I keep bumping my head on this glass ceiling!

  3. Barnabas says:

    I’ve known some petit rock climber girls who could do a lot of pullups and pushups. Could not carry the gear that an infantryman currently carries for very long without hurting themselves.

  4. Steve says:

    Upper body strength is much greater in men. Women also carry more of their mass in the lower half of the body. Combine that with weaker arms,chest, back and shoulders and you have a recipe for hardly any pull ups. My wife and daughers are in great shape. They can maybe do one pull up on a good day.

  5. Leiff says:

    1. The reason I’m not a cheetah is that I was never trained to be a cheetah?

    2. I’ve also known some pretty fit women. People I completed Ironman races with. I could kill all those women with one hand.

    3. Those reporters are obviously both homosexuals.

  6. RichardP says:

    The bright side of all things like this is that it provides proof – not theories – that women are not as strong as men. Without the opportunity to test themselves, women could continue to claim that they would be just as good / effective as men if they were given the opportunity. Now that they’ve been given the opportunity, and failed, there is no reason for them to continue with that claim.

  7. feeriker says:

    so the only question now is how fast and how far the standards will be lowered in order to finally complete the construction of our new feminist military.

    Well, who knows, maybe the plan is for our feminized military to fight Russia’s or China’s feminized military after we threaten to kick both of their national asses if they don’t lower their own standards to meet ours (after all, everybody caves in to America’s threats, right?).

  8. M.W. Peak says:

    but … but … I saw this …

  9. feeriker says:

    With the news coming out today that the sole remaining female Marine has dropped out of the Infantry Officer’s Course…

    Not that the regulars here need this reminder, but for the benefit of casual lurkers or first-time visitors to the ‘sphere, the term “female Marine” is about as reflective of reality as is the term “herbivorous wolf.”

  10. feeriker says:

    but … but … I saw this …

    Aw, c’mon now … look closely at that adam’s apple.

  11. CEO Nikolic says:

    First of all, Dalrock, big tip of the hat for publishing my first comment. You didn’t censor me even though I disagreed with you. Lesser men would have.

    This marks my second ever posting on your site.

    On this topic, chicks in the military, a few points bear mentioning.

    1) If women want to enter the military, they should all be given a “killing test.” That is, find a small conflict going on, with a guaranteed kill-site, such as an emplaced machined gun, and sit her fat ass down in it and see if she can kill a man, live. I have a feeling very few women could. If they can’t, what are they doing in the mliitary?

    2) It is inevitable that, in line with “more diversity of opinion in the boardroom!” corporate b/s, which is having incompetent female “leadership” instituted into corporations, many more women will flood the ranks of generals. This will inevitably be a disaster. One woman will be a catastrophe, can you imagine six women all nodded heads agreeing, “Yes, exactly, you’re so right!” (Have you ever heard a woman talk to another?) The amount of constructive criticism will be nil. (But it will be a very FAIR AND SHARING HIGH COMMAND!)

    3) Women are attention whores. This is their nature. They also seek, like children, to test the boundaries of their permissible status. I strongly doubt they have the same motivations of a Napoleon in command, or an Audie Murphy in the grunts. By placating them with these “goodies,” you are merely giving them, not what they want, but what they think they want.

    And finally,

    4) The reason society can afford to do such stupid things — forcing the employment of undertrained minorities who disrupt corporate cultures, bringing women into the military, supporting the rights of gays to an elevated high status — is because it is rich — rich and unchallenged. The existence of these travesties is proof positive of the West’s ultimate wealth and security. None other would be needed. ~ CEO Nikolic

  12. Jim says:

    Yes. The differences between men and women’s physical strength has nothing to do with biology. it’s all just a social construct. It’s like these people are in some kind of religious cult.

  13. The Question says:

    I happen to be a bit of an avid weight lifter (my high school gym instructor was a former stunt double for John Wayne) so this stuff just cracks me up. The only time I do chins (not pull-ups) without a belt of +25 weight attached is when I’m warming up.

    This story reminds me of that scene from Full Metal Jacket:

    “Come on, Pyle! Pull! Pull! You mean to tell me you can’t do one single pull up Pyle? You are a worthless piece of %$%^, Pyle!”

  14. Ash says:

    In general, men definitely have more upper body strength. Women’s lower body strength is greater than their upper, however.

    http://www.livescience.com/42318-women-pullups.html

  15. Gunner Q says:

    Ah, testosterone. The proof of sex differences that just won’t go away.

    I can barely do a single unassisted pullup either, only my excuse is being very tall and twice the weight of some of these girls. It was even my 2014 New Year’s Resolution to get into a pull-up habit, supplementing my martial arts with a weight gym. My only fitness failure to date.

    Now there’s no more weight gym in my area, no more boxing ring even. All the money is in henhouse-style “gyms” where girls on treadmills can chat and swipe Tinder. I even saw a new “fitness center” in a local SHOPPING MALL, for pity’s sake.

    CEO Nikolic @ 4:38 pm:
    “1) If women want to enter the military, they should all be given a “killing test.” That is, find a small conflict going on, with a guaranteed kill-site, such as an emplaced machined gun, and sit her fat ass down in it and see if she can kill a man, live. I have a feeling very few women could. If they can’t, what are they doing in the mliitary?”

    Most men can’t kill in cold blood, either. Overcoming this pro-civilization instinct is a high priority of basic training.

  16. Women’s lower body strength is stronger than their upper body strength, but still weaker than men’s on average/

  17. Sean says:

    I’m sure if they only had Moochelle’s glorious, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful arms, they’d have made it.

  18. Heidi_storage says:

    I had a female sociology professor (the class was a requirement) state seriously that there was no physical difference between what women could do and what men could do. I asked, “So, you don’t think that men are naturally stronger than women?”
    “Nope,” she said, smiling. “It’s all social conditioning.”
    Now, what do you do with people like that, especially when they’re teachers? I was dumbfounded, and most of the rest of the class was too hungover to pay attention to the exchange, but someone she’s taught might actually believe that garbage.

  19. Ace says:

    I am a women vet. I had a flight of more then 70 women. Because of the job I wanted I was held to the male physical fitness standards. I met them all except pull ups. Under 20, tall and strong for a women, body building under a man who trained for 20 years and made it through all of basic and still could not get my chin completely over the bar. Out of over 70 there was only one very small women who did an actual pull up. On the otherhand, every single guy did them. Shoot, my brother at 3 years old could do them. Can’t escape biology. Should not try. By the way, these women never consider the life long injuries you get trying to be one of the guys. Humping a 90 pound pack on a short hike in 100 degree heat left me with a life long injury and none of us females could do it without nearly passing out. Many did. Nearly all were crying in pain. The male flight did it running and singing. Who puts a women they love at this horrible disadvantage?

  20. Oscar says:

    I’m no expert and I’ve trained women to do pull-ups. It’s not that difficult. You do it the same way you train a man who can’t do pull-ups. Start with assistance bands, and gradually decrease the assistance until they require zero assistance.

    http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-monster-bands

    I doubt that pull-ups are the reason the female Infantry Officer candidates failed. It’s far more likely to be the weights they have to carry.

    On a related note, I find it difficult to believe that the Marine Infantry Officers’ Course is tougher than Ranger School, yet several women passed Ranger School. It may be that the Corps is the last service still holding the line, which wouldn’t surprise me.

    And yes, fit women can do pull-ups, though not as many as fit men.

  21. And in other news ISIS has announced it will now lower its training standards and lessen its zealousness to kill female American combatants to accommodate their physical handicaps.

    Wait,…no they didn’t.

  22. M.W. Peak says:

    And yes, fit women can do pull-ups, though not as many as fit men.

    I watched the video and thought to myself, “I hope she doesn’t breastfeed.”

  23. Oscar says:

    @ Heidi_storage says:
    August 16, 2016 at 5:51 pm

    “Now, what do you do with people like that, especially when they’re teachers?”

    You show them a weightlifting competition. They all have men’s and women’s categories. In this one, for example, the strongest woman deadlifted 415 lb, which is pretty damned impressive.

    The strongest man deadlifted 615 lb.

    That particular competition isn’t broken down by weight classes, but you can also show them results from the Olympics, which are broken down by weight classes.

    For example, you can compare the men’s 56 kg (123 lb) weight class to the women’s 58 kg (128 lb) weight class.

    The top female in the 58 kg class lifted a total of 240 kg (529 lb).
    The top male in the 56 kg class lifted a total of 307 kg (677 lb).

  24. Spike says:

    Women don’t do pull-ups for the same reason they do push-ups on their knees.
    There is this wiring in the body called the neuro-muscular interface. Men – the offspring of men who survived primeval fights – have more neurons connecting muscle to the brain. They had to have this as a survival mechanism. Their muscles had to work, or they died.

    Thus, if you explain this to a man and tell him to do a particular exercise, he will do it.

    Women – the ancestors of which were the mating partners of fight survivors – have far less neuro muscular interface, because it was never selected for in their ancestral past. They can be taught to do complex exercises, but it takes far more training and is far more complicated. Push -ups will require a raised surface for their hands so they can keep their bodies flat. Men don’t need this.
    Pull-ups will require bands that progressively provide less support. Men again, just need the bar.

  25. Anonymous Reader says:

    Heidi
    “Now, what do you do with people like that, especially when they’re teachers?”

    Oscar
    You show them a weightlifting competition.

    And they continue to insist it’s all socialization. Maybe blast Crossfit as sexist.
    Then what?

    You can’t reason someone out of an emotional belief. This is one reason I don’t talk with feminists much anymore. Reality is not where they live.

  26. Lost Patrol says:

    Yeehah!
    Be careful Dalrock – analyzing the social engineering going on within the US military could quickly become your life’s work. Everything you’ve exposed within churchianity is alive and well in the armed forces, and picking up a head of steam.

    We needn’t worry about lowered standards. Ray and Ash, the white knight manginas overseeing all this, along with everybody else, has repeatedly stated the standards will not be lowered. I believe them. Lowered standards would indicate a weakened military.

    Standards will however be modified, changed or improved; to better reflect the exigencies of modern war, blah, blah, quack, quack, bullshit flowing over the dam, etc.

    Teach them to do a few pullups. That’s not what’s kicking their asses at the schools anyway, it’s the forced marches with heavy loads.

    This will be made to work. At any cost.

    We love how it sucks here: http://s13.photobucket.com/user/rdfoster/media/CCFF/War%20on%20Terror/mud.jpg.html

  27. Anonymous Reader says:

    It goes without saying but someone has to say it: the progressive policies being pushed on the US military will get people killed someday. Possibly a lot of people. Men and women who believed in a lie, or a series of lies, will suffer while the perfumed princeling decisionmakers and the SJW maniacs will be safe at home.

    Furthermore, this is how wars can be lost.

  28. Gunner Q says:

    “Now, what do you do with people like that, especially when they’re teachers?”

    You annoy her as much as you can. It keeps the class interesting, you make new friends and you’re more likely to pass the class than if you keep quiet because unless she gives you at least a C-, she’ll see you again next semester.

    That won’t change her attitude but will give her a drinking problem. Good enough.

  29. Oscar says:

    @ Anonymous Reader says:
    August 16, 2016 at 6:44 pm

    “You can’t reason someone out of an emotional belief. This is one reason I don’t talk with feminists much anymore. Reality is not where they live.”

    You’re probably right about the feminist professor. She’s a lost cause. The point is not to convince the feminist professor, but to provide confirming evidence to the people in the audience who are thinking to themselves “that doesn’t sound right” based on personal observation, but aren’t willing to speak up for fear of being labeled “sexist” or whatever.

  30. Oscar says:

    @ Lost Patrol says:
    August 16, 2016 at 6:46 pm

    “Teach them to do a few pullups. That’s not what’s kicking their asses at the schools anyway, it’s the forced marches with heavy loads.”

    Agreed.

    @ Anonymous Reader says:
    August 16, 2016 at 6:50 pm

    “the progressive policies being pushed on the US military will get people killed someday. Possibly a lot of people… Furthermore, this is how wars can be lost.”

    Those are features, not bugs.

  31. Lost Patrol says:

    I almost forgot. From the Dalrock Commenters one-liner collection.

    “The compromises of yesterday become the starting position for bargaining today, and today’s new compromise will become the starting point for bargaining tomorrow.” -Dalrock

    This is how it will be done.

  32. Robert What? says:

    Maybe the Marines will replace pull ups with hair weaving? Oops – is that sexist?

  33. Pingback: Why can’t women do pull ups? It’s a culture thing. | Reaction Times

  34. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    M.W. Peak, ironically, that clip from Aliens is shockingly politically incorrect.

    The character of “Private Vasquez” is played by Jewish actress Jenette Goldstein in brownface: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001280/?ref_=tt_cl_t8

    Hollywood took a light-skinned Jewish actress, and darkened her face, so she would play a Puerto Rican. Shockingly “insensitive” bit of un-PC casting for 1986. I doubt Hollywood would do it today. Most likely they’d cast Michelle Rodriguez, an actual latina, who specializes in “tough girl” roles.

  35. feeriker says:

    Maybe the Marines will replace pull ups with hair weaving? Oops – is that sexist?

    Hair weaving? If true equality was the goal, female Marines would be required to get skinhead haircuts just like the men.

  36. M.W. Peak says:

    @Red Pill Latecomer:

    … ironically, that clip from Aliens is shockingly politically incorrect.

    Huh. Thanks for the insight.

  37. Jim Christian says:

    Meh, all academic. Women don’t pack the bone density, the skeleton, to carry weight. That’s the root of the debate. The skeleton doesn’t take but so much load, no matter how much muscle you pile on, the skeleton breaks when the bones are not dense enough to carry the load the muscles impose. It’s really that simple, but ignored.

    The rest? This is about women having the jobs, the benefits, the privilege of the men-dismissed that really do the dirty work that (supposedly) keeps us safe. The women? A squad of collect-a-checks. My experience of course is United States Naval Aviation, now one-third female, that cannot get even three carrier groups, escorts and squadrons of F/A-18s to sea because after all, what to do with the children of the single-mother females that populate said units of Naval Air? And so 7 or 8 of our 10 or 11 carriers sit at the pier, expensive office buildings, same for their escorts, same for the squadrons, Naval Aviation needed all over the world, sitting at the pier and Air Stations providing jobs for single mothers. Instead of bombing Syria from the Mediterranean coast of Syria, targets 200 miles out, we bomb Syria from Kuwait, 1500 miles out. Because, the children of single mothers, most of them worthless sluts. The women, society, the President, they give two shits about the degradation of our military, it’s really about replacing men, giving the pay and benefits to the women (privilege), pretending all is well and “equal”. Our military is hollowed out and finished. You can pile all the money into the military you want, at the end of the day, the children. Hillary better consider carefully the adventures she takes up.

  38. tsotha says:

    Any healthy woman in her teens and early 20s is capable of doing three pullups. She might have to lose weight and gain strength to do it, though. If she’s not capable of doing even that little bit she’s got no business in the Marine Corps regardless of how you feel about women in the military.

    Fitness tests exist to weed out the lard asses, and that’s what’s happening here.

  39. tsotha says:

    A 155mm shell (that’s just the shell, too, without the powder bags) weighs about 95 pounds. How many shells can a person (man or woman) muscle into the breach without being capable of a single pullup?

    This is a freakin’ disaster in the making.

  40. Neguy says:

    Oscar, we need to take female weightlifting results with a grain a salt. There are a lot of steroid users among women as well as men. And with lower natural hormonal support, women benefit a lot from steroids.

    Having said that, some women can do pull-ups, but it’s tougher to get there. (It’s not even easy for guys. It was really hard for me to first be able to do them). The big issue is weight, since pull-ups are very levered to your weight. An overweight woman is going to have a really though time of it.

  41. Oscar says:

    @ Neguy says:
    August 16, 2016 at 9:11 pm

    “Oscar, we need to take female weightlifting results with a grain a salt. There are a lot of steroid users among women as well as men. And with lower natural hormonal support, women benefit a lot from steroids.”

    True, but that only serves to prove my point. Even with the (suspected) use of PEDs, and their greater effect on women than men, male weightlifters outlift female weightlifters by a wide margin, especially in lifts that require a lot of upper body strength, like the jerk, the snatch and the bench press.

    Also, PEDs are a major issue in all spots. Heck, even Sharapova got caught using PEDs, and she’s a tennis player.

    http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2016/06/08/maria-sharapova-banned-tennis-2-years-ped-violation/

  42. Major Styles says:

    You just have to smile and agree with their lies. The far-left controls higher education and you will only ruin your GPA if you speak up. Remember that they are not above abusing their positions of power.

    I would however write the teacher up on Rate My Professor. I would also do it several times from a variety of burner accounts, since this can affect her ability to get future work.

  43. Major Styles says:

    That seems like the goal at this point.

  44. Vektor says:

    Musclebound women are disgusting. IMO.

    As a once ‘nice guy’ that has had all sense of chivalry utterly destroyed…..I am for it. The same way I am for gay ‘marriage’. More degeneracy. More. I want to see dead, raped, crippled women on the battlefield. Equality baby. How does it taste?

    Birth rates far below replacement. Civilization extinction.

    When the average beta male is filled with apathy or anger. Your society is dead man walking.

    Let it burn.

  45. Lost Patrol says:

    Feminization of the combat arms really pushes all my buttons, so feel the need to share pullups related action inside an M-1 tank.

    The breech is moving around because the gun is stabilized on targets. The crew is being tested using dummy HEAT rounds, identical to live ammo in size and weight (approx. 53.4 lbs. each). Training exercise, no one is scared, no one is shooting back, tank is moving slowly, hatches are open during the day – can of corn.

    Harder at night, hatches closed, people shooting back, tank bouncing hard over broken ground, everyone scared. If we even have women who can do this – why do we want that? Preaching to the choir I’m sure.

  46. Kevin says:

    My sons might have considered being in the military. But now I tell them the politicians are trying to kill them by placing diversity over their safety. The military can be filled by the coast people if they want, but it’s crazy for rural Americans to continue to join a military that considers their lives worth far less than feminist mandates.

  47. Oscar says:

    I like Mark Rippetoe’s idea for baseline military physical fitness standards.

    http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/are-you-strong-enough-an-interview-with-mark-rippetoe/

    2x body weight deadlift
    0.75x body weight press (eliminating almost all females, except for a few with elite genetics)
    12 chin-ups or pull-ups
    400m run in 75 seconds

    For the Army, I would add…

    20 km ruck march with 45 lb ruck in 3 hours
    100 m swim in uniform and boots, with a rifle

    I would also add the stipulation that all events must be completed within the same week.

    Unfortunately, that’ll never happen.

  48. Anon says:

    Part of being conservative means conserving feminist progress,

    This is why cuckservatism is the most loserish ideology imaginable.

    My definition it supports that which is on its way out. It has no principle, other than to remind us of how the human brain is hardwired to be resistant to change.

    If one were to distill the purest form of loserdom, one cannot invent something more accurate than cuckservatism.

  49. Anon says:

    *By definition it supports….

    Cuckservatism identifies the most guaranteed-to-lose position available and goes all-in in favor of it. I have lost friends who berated me for not being enthusiastic enough about mainstream cuckservative positions. I guess that was a blessing in disguise.

  50. BillyS says:

    I couldn’t do 3 pull ups when I was in NROTC in college, but I could do about 100-120 pushups and easily passed that (since pushups were an alternative). I had not worked much on pullups over the years, but I also suspect my body layout wasn’t good for that even though I definitely have plenty of muscles.

    I will probably not know now as I am just trying to do more lifting and I am nowhere near worried about pullups at this stage of my life.

  51. Anon says:

    The Democrats in general and the left in particular despise the military. They see it as stronghold of the right and do everything they can to weaken it. They don’t care if lowered standards mean people get killed (that’s just one less republican voter). Also. there has been some talk of civil war here in America and the Dems are pretty sure the military isn’t on their side, so their just fine with a weak military. Practically, what we’ll see is a greater reliance on mercenaries, small elite teams, and so forth.

  52. Uncle Farnsworth says:

    Good news everyone!
    If we only start soon enough, within a generation or two, we might be able to teach boys how to breastfeed.

  53. Just Some Guy says:

    Hey, maybe if standards are lowered enough, I’ll have a chance to join. Despite being almost 40, partial spinal fusion and two steal rods. Cool!

  54. Ace says:

    @Oscar
    You are missing the point. You are claiming you have TRAINED women to do pullups. Great. How long did that training take and what were the long term results? How many males HAVE TO TRAIN to do a single push up who are young and in excellent shape? I personally saw hundreds day after day do they without any training. While after weeks and weeks of boot camp the same women could not. The point is you have to provide extraordinary circumstances for a women to do the same thing a man does easily.
    You also must have missed where any of the women who did “pass” the training you cite went through MULTIPLE TIMES in order to finally “pass” so they actually did not.

    This goes for those posting crossfit and body building examples. They mean nothing because all those women had to spend time to TRAIN to do something the average weight teenage boy or younger can do easily with no training.

  55. Ilíon says:

    Anonymous Reader:It goes without saying but someone has to say it: the progressive policies being pushed on the US military will get people killed someday. Possibly a lot of people.
    ..
    Furthermore, this is how wars can be lost.

    That is the *intention*, on both counts.

  56. A couple of years ago there was a Kurdish woman soldier called Rehana.

    Some people posted pictures of a decapitated head.

    Rehana hasn’t been heard from since.

    Nobody really knows if that decapitated head was hers.

    Evidence suggests that she is no longer fighting, regardless of whether she is alive or dead.

    Quote:

    Rehana’s picture smiling and making the V-sign was widely distributed on social networks but then replaced by another picture that went viral on Twitter showing an ISIS militant holding a decapitated head of a female figure, claiming it belonged to the Kurdish female fighter “Rehana”.

    The Kurdish journalist, Pawan Durani, reported today that the famous Kurdish fighter is still alive and hunting ISIS fighters in the strategic town of Kobani. Durani wrote “Rehana is very much alive. ISIS supporters are just trying to lift morale.”

  57. Gunner Q says:

    Oscar, a swim test for Army? And I question whether 400lb deadlifts really would be an acceptable MINIMUM standard of fitness. I’ve worked on my family farms as a teen, baling hay and irrigating corn by hand, and they were nowhere near that level of fitness. I call BS on Mr. “Rippetoe”.

  58. Oscar says:

    @ Ace says:
    August 17, 2016 at 6:15 am

    “You are missing the point. You are claiming you have TRAINED women to do pullups. Great. How long did that training take and what were the long term results? How many males HAVE TO TRAIN to do a single push up who are young and in excellent shape? I personally saw hundreds day after day do they without any training. While after weeks and weeks of boot camp the same women could not. The point is you have to provide extraordinary circumstances for a women to do the same thing a man does easily.”

    Actually, you missed my point. I understand that “you have to provide extraordinary circumstances for a women to do the same thing [some men do] easily” (more on that change later). I’m the one that trained them, remember?

    My point is that pull-ups are likely not the limiting factor. The women who try out for the Marine Infantry Officers’ Course (the subject of the article Dalrock referenced) aren’t ordinary females. They’re not even ordinary female Marines. A measly three pull-ups is not the problem here.

    The talking heads focus on pull-ups because they and their audience have at least some reference point on that subject. They have zero reference points for what is the actual problem. When I went through the Sapper Leader Course, we rotated through the different positions in our squads and platoon. When I was the M240B ammo bearer, my combat load approached 120 lb.

    Try putting 120 lb on a 135 lb female. THAT is the problem.

    ——————————————————————————————————————

    Now for my change to your statement above. Keep in mind that this is a completely different point and separate from the point I made above.

    Few young men these days have the strength to carry and fight in the kinds of loads that modern combat requires without suffering chronic overuse injuries. I certainly didn’t. I was a good runner, I could crank out push-ups, sit-ups and pull-ups, but carrying that much equipment crushed me, despite the fact that I regularly scored in the top 10% in the Army Physical Fitness Test. That’s why I started strength training.

    Most young men who enlist today are weak and fat. I know because, when I was a commander, they arrived at my company from Basic Training still weak and fat. They can’t “do easily” what you claim men can “do easily”.

    Every new recruit, upon arrival at Basic Training, should be trained in how to perform the basic lifts – squat, deadlift, press, chin-ups and cleans. They should then go through an intense six month (yes, SIX MONTHS), linear progression strength training program using those lifts. If they can’t pass the following test at the end of six months…

    2x body weight deadlift
    0.75x body weight press
    12 chin-ups or pull-ups
    400m run in 75 seconds
    20 km ruck march with 45 lb ruck in 3 hours
    100 m swim in uniform and boots, with a rifle
    All performed within one week

    … they should be sent home.

    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but these days most young men who enlist require “extraordinary circumstances” to perform the tasks they should be able to “do easily”. For the most part, we’re not sending farm boys who grew up doing heavy manual labor into the military anymore. We’re not even sending high school athletes into the military anymore. We’re mostly sending boys who grew up playing Call of Duty into the military. Thus, the results of this study on grip strength.

    “In 1985, the typical 30-to-34-year-old man could squeeze your hand with 31 pounds more force than the typical woman of that age could. But today, older millennial men and women are roughly equal when it comes to grip strength.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/15/todays-men-are-nowhere-near-as-strong-as-their-dads-were-researchers-say/?wpisrc=nl_rainbow&wpmm=1

    And yes, allowing women into the military only makes the problem worse.

  59. Oscar says:

    @ Gunner Q says:
    August 17, 2016 at 8:49 am

    “Oscar, a swim test for Army?”

    You’d apparently be surprised at how many Soldiers have drowned during our current desert wars. Swimming is a life saving skill, especially in combat.

    Furthermore, every country on Earth has rivers and streams that sometimes have to be crossed, and doing so without specialized equipment gives the ground pounder a tactical advantage. That’s why it’s an integral part of Ranger School and the Sapper Leader Course.

    “And I question whether 400lb deadlifts really would be an acceptable MINIMUM standard of fitness. I’ve worked on my family farms as a teen, baling hay and irrigating corn by hand, and they were nowhere near that level of fitness.”

    We’re not talking about farm fitness here. We’re talking about military fitness. Ever tried to lift onto your shoulders a wounded 200 lb man who’s wearing 60 lb of gear?

    ” I call BS on Mr. “Rippetoe”.”

    Which explains this statement.

    Gunner Q says:
    August 16, 2016 at 5:05 pm

    “I can barely do a single unassisted pullup…”

  60. Cane Caldo says:

    @Oscar et al

    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but these days most young men who enlist require “extraordinary circumstances” to perform the tasks they should be able to “do easily”.

    This is definitely part of the military’s poor formulation of the problem of female warriors. Most of us are in bad shape and pathetically weak. Commanderd have seen bad-shaped men make marvelous gains when disciplined by rigorous PT; increasing their work capabilities by many more folds than previous generations. This is because of better training, better nutrition, and also very much because of the bad-shaped beginning. Add to the fact that the military is largely grown from teenage men who will explode in power under discipline. That all gets mixed-in with the bogus idea of gender neutrality and one gets the idea that women can make just as great of gains.

    When I was 16, in high school baseball off-season, I ripped the all the cartilage off my femur while doing plyometrics (boxes). After surgery I was on a mobility machine for ten days and crutches for six more weeks. During that time, my coach told me to do push-ups on running days. I asked how many and he said: “700.” I laughed, but he did not.

    “In an hour and a half?”, I was incredulous. He walked off.

    By the end of the six weeks I could do 700 push-ups in 90 minutes. I kept it up and with weight-training and physical therapy also, by the end of the year I had gone from 6’4″ 175 lbs. to 6’4″ 225 lbs.; from benching 150 lbs. to 250 lbs.

    Those aren’t marvelous results in the hardcore world of fitness. That’s my point. But for a woman that would be phenomenal growth in body and work.

  61. Chris says:

    “Who puts a women they love at this horrible disadvantage?”

    Western Feminists, mostly. Well, they’re mostly White women who care only about other White women, so I guess they don’t really care about ALL women.

    No matter how many times They claim otherwise, the sexes are different. The hormones that the Maker endowed us with – which Feminists hate us for – makes us stronger. The most prominent exceptions would be the women who self-administer the synthetic versions of them, but even then there’s usually mental and emotional disruptions. Just ask Hope Solo.

  62. Oscar says:

    @ Cane Caldo says:
    August 17, 2016 at 9:57 am

    “This is definitely part of the military’s poor formulation of the problem of female warriors… That all gets mixed-in with the bogus idea of gender neutrality and one gets the idea that women can make just as great of gains.”

    Exactly! I’ve read multiple articles claiming that the reason the military “needs” to includes homosexuals, females and transgenders is because millennial men are in such bad shape.

    How stupid is that?!

    Yes, it’s true that millennial men are (generally) in terrible shape, but the solution is a long (six months, for example), rigorous, disciplined, linear progression strength training program, NOT shoehorning women, homosexuals and transgenders into the military.

    But, as I stated above, getting good men killed and losing wars is a feature, not a bug.

  63. Gunner Q says:

    Oscar @ 9:16 am:
    “We’re not talking about farm fitness here.”

    Your linked article was. Rippetoe’s explanation for emphasizing strength over endurance was that people worked farms in 1914 and therefore showed up naturally strong for basic training. He grossly overestimates their upper-body strength. You can even look at old photos of lumberjacks. They’re big guys but not muscleheads.

    “We’re talking about military fitness. Ever tried to lift onto your shoulders a wounded 200 lb man who’s wearing 60 lb of gear?”

    Are we talking about basic soldiers or Marine Force Ranger-SEALs behind enemy lines? I wouldn’t carry a cappuccino in my off-hand until the battle’s over, let alone Pfc Not Currently Helping. No offense, buddy, just keep pressure on that for a minute.

  64. Anon says:

    And I question whether 400lb deadlifts really would be an acceptable MINIMUM standard of fitness. I’ve worked on my family farms as a teen, baling hay and irrigating corn by hand, and they were nowhere near that level of fitness.

    400-lbs deadlifts is not that much, once you practice it. Remember, you are only lifting to slightly above knee height..

  65. Damn Crackers says:

    Who cares how many pull-ups a female infantry soldier can do. What needs to be tested is how many dicks she can take before bleeding to death from rape after becoming a POW.

  66. Oscar says:

    Gunner Q says:
    August 17, 2016 at 10:28 am

    “You can even look at old photos of lumberjacks. They’re big guys but not muscleheads.”

    Neither am I, and a 400 lb deadlift is no big deal. Any healthy young male can achieve a 400 lb deadlift with six months of strength training and plentiful nutrition.

    “Are we talking about basic soldiers or Marine Force Ranger-SEALs behind enemy lines?”

    I’ve never served in SOCOM. I’m talking about regular Soldiers here. Because of the armor Soldier wear nowadays, the weights they carry in combat are much greater than in the past, and the best preparation for carrying those weights, fighting while wearing them, and doing so quickly with minimum injuries is strength training.

  67. Mike says:

    Of course it’s all smokescreen. We have to ignore reality when we imagine we’re a nation where all the children are above average.

  68. Oscar says:

    @ Damn Crackers says:
    August 17, 2016 at 11:02 am

    “Who cares how many pull-ups a female infantry soldier can do. What needs to be tested is how many dicks she can take before bleeding to death from rape after becoming a POW.”

    With Muslims that is also a consideration for men.

  69. Even if one were to accept that it’s all about culture rather than biology (and there is plenty of evidence that isn’t true — look at the differences in healthy body fat ratios and the difference in knee ACL injury rates) how many women actually want the musculature of a fit man? To have the strength of a man requires the build of a man. How many women want to be built like a man?

  70. patriarchal landmine says:

    why not just swing your legs? are women stupid?

  71. Bike Bubba says:

    And yes, fit women can do pull-ups, though not as many as fit men.

    It’s worth noting that what the Crossfit woman is doing is chin-ups, not pull-ups. The latter are somewhat more difficult, and match better the need to pull yourself out of a burning vehicle or up a cliff.

    Regarding Rippetoe’s comments, I tend to agree in principle if not completely in specifics. The trick is that the soldier’s pack is designed for an average man of good physical condition–and hence the services have eliminated a lot of the extreme examples for this very reason. A 300 lb infantryman is no more effective than a 150 lb man, but is a lot harder to get places.

  72. Bike Bubba says:

    why not just swing your legs? are women stupid?

    Writing as a guy who was able to do 13 pull-ups back in high school (no more, sad to say), that’s called “cheating” and does nothing for you when you need to pull yourself out of a burning tank with a serious leg injury. NCOs watch for that like a hawk, I’m told.

  73. Gunner Q says:

    questionassumptions @ 11:15 am:
    “Even if one were to accept that it’s all about culture rather than biology … how many women actually want the musculature of a fit man?”

    Well, they insist on dressing like men, acting like men, and adopting male haircuts… and they’re eager to tattoo their bodies like (thuggish) men do… and they’d rather be soldiers than mothers…

    Oscar @ 9:16 am:
    “Oscar, a swim test for Army?

    You’d apparently be surprised at how many Soldiers have drowned during our current desert wars.”

    Yes, I would be. Statistics, please? Because so far as I’ve heard, our recent desert wars were primarily tank battles and town occupations.

    @ 11:06 am:
    “I’ve never served in SOCOM. I’m talking about regular Soldiers here.”

    Then why is free-carrying 260+ pounds of fellow soldier important? Regular soldiers have logistics and friends for this. Once a wounded man’s unit has a moment, 2 or 3 guys can team up to carry him to safety, which is a nearby truck not a distant extraction point. It takes more than one man to safely move a serious injury anyway.

    Rippedtoe talks like a Rambo wannabe. Show me a 250lb soldier carrying more weight than a 200lb soldier is capable of and I’ll show you an Airborne dude waddling up a plane ramp.

  74. SirHamster says:

    Then why is free-carrying 260+ pounds of fellow soldier important? Regular soldiers have logistics and friends for this. Once a wounded man’s unit has a moment, 2 or 3 guys can team up to carry him to safety, which is a nearby truck not a distant extraction point. It takes more than one man to safely move a serious injury anyway.

    That sounds very optimistic about combat conditions. War is messy and everything goes wrong.

    Maybe you’re a 3 man team, and 1 guy needs to put down suppressing fire so 1 guy can move the wounded to a safer spot with cover. Maybe your one man has to make an unsafe move of a soldier with a serious injury. It’s either that or the wounded dies.

    “You shouldn’t be doing that” doesn’t matter. You make war with what you have, not how you want to do it.

  75. Cane Caldo says:

    @Oscar

    Yes, it’s true that millennial men are (generally) in terrible shape

    For the record I include myself in the bad-shape and too-weak (for my size) category. I could probably still push 250 lbs.–maybe a bit more–but it’s been long since I could do 700 push-ups.

  76. Ace says:

    Women are not allowed to swing your feet when doing pull ups. They hold them if you do. You also had to start hanging down from the bar with your arms straight as a starting position and your chin had to be an inch above the bar to complete the pull up. I always got to the bar, even above it but still less then an inch.

    @Oscar
    The point is you said women can do them IF trained. My point was no, not all of them can even if young, in good health and with months of training. On the other hand, fresh male recruits nearly all could do them while not in good shape and having no training. Regarding carrying weight, it is the same thing. It does not matter how much training a female has, she has physical limitations that are much greater then even out of shape un trained men have.

  77. Oscar says:

    @ Gunner Q says:
    August 17, 2016 at 1:41 pm

    “Yes, I would be. Statistics, please? Because so far as I’ve heard, our recent desert wars were primarily tank battles and town occupations.”

    And you would be wrong. Remind me again, which of us has experience in Iraq and Afghanistan? As for statistics, I don’t know of any, but I do know of specific events. For example:

    “3 December 2006 – CH-46E Sea Knight from HMM-165 carrying 16 personnel made an emergency landing on Lake Qadisiyah in Al Anbar Province. Four of the passengers drowned in the incident.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

    Furthermore, I know that drowning incidents were prevalent enough that the military redesigned our body armor with a quick release that causes it to fall apart in just such a situation.

    “Then why is free-carrying 260+ pounds of fellow soldier important?”

    Once again, remind me which of us has experience in Iraq and Afghanistan?

    “Regular soldiers have logistics and friends for this.”

    Uh-huh.

    “As the birds landed amid enemy machine gun fire and Marines began to climb aboard, Salka saw one injured Marine, identified by officials as Lance Cpl. Johnathan Burns, fall to the ground. To protect Burns from incoming fire, Salka threw a smoke grenade, lifted the Marine onto his shoulders and carried him nearly 400 yards to the aircraft, getting him safely aboard.”

    http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/06/10/bronze-star-for-carrying-wounded-marine-on-shoulders/28733949/

    “Rippedtoe talks like a Rambo wannabe. Show me a 250lb soldier carrying more weight than a 200lb soldier is capable of and I’ll show you an Airborne dude waddling up a plane ramp.”

    You keep showing that you don’t know what you’re talking about, yet you continue anyway. The point is not that the stronger Soldier can carry more weight than the weaker Soldier. Standard combat loads are standard.

    The point is that the stronger Soldier can carry the same load as the weaker Soldier further, faster, with less fatigue and fewer injuries, and is therefore better prepared to fight.

    And once again I’ll remind you of this statement.

    Gunner Q says:
    August 16, 2016 at 5:05 pm

    “I can barely do a single unassisted pullup…”

    You don’t know what you’re talking about.

  78. Feminist Hater says:

    Yes, it’s true that millennial men are (generally) in terrible shape, but the solution is a long (six months, for example), rigorous, disciplined, linear progression strength training program, NOT shoehorning women, homosexuals and transgenders into the military.

    That’s why basic training has always been important. Both for the psychological aspect of having to kill others but also for basic strength, endurance and firearms training. Men can far outpace women when it comes to getting fit fast though. Women will take longer, do less and be more of a burden on the battlefield. Everyone knows this but still pushes it. To the point that even those like me who know the damage caused by placing women in combat roles now call for them to be placed right in the thick of things. If they really want to take it that far, let them do it. Just don’t call me for back-up, I’m out!

  79. patchasaurus says:

    No brag, but I remember well when I was 13 I really developed physically without working out at all. We used to do the Presidential Fitness in PE and I could rip out 15 pullups with ease, well above the requirement for the Presidential Award. Girls did not have to do pullups, it’s true, but instead had to hold themselves in the up position with their chin above the bar. They could start in this position and have a chair pulled away. For the award they had to do this for 15 seconds as I recall and very few could do it. I tried it one day for kicks and stayed up for over 5 minutes. Just saying.

  80. Gunner Q says:

    “That sounds very optimistic about combat conditions.”

    Necessity, not optimism. Moving a traumatic injury can easily maim or kill. Don’t risk your life to turn his broken leg into a severed artery. Either wait until you have help & time to do it right or let him move himself.

    Firefighters assume the victim’s problem is smoke inhalation and possible building collapse so they pick him up as quickly as they can and run him outside to an oxygen tank. Hollywood transposes the dramatic imagery to war but “pick him up as quickly as you can and run to the medic” is poor advice for gunshot wounds and bone fractures.

    So, it’s one of my tells for Rambo types. “If you can’t carry your friend with one hand while hosing the enemy with the SAW in your other then you’re worthless!”.

    @Oscar,
    So the drownings are actually aircraft crashes on water. I was expecting to hear flash floods but either way, that’s not poor swimming standards.

    Salka is a hero but he get a bronze star for performing what you think should be a minimally acceptable effort. What am I supposed to think?

    ““I can barely do a single unassisted pullup…”
    You don’t know what you’re talking about.”

    I mentioned that about me because the idea of women being unable to do the exercise despite the advantages of being half my weight and shorter arms is laughable. My apologies if I gave the impression of being a weakling. If it makes you feel better about me, my SCUBA vest weighs 100lbs when I start hiking down the beach access paths.

    “Once again, remind me which of us has experience in Iraq and Afghanistan?”

    My coworkers and friends. And since we talked terrain, the military trains soldiers for Afghanistan just a few hours south of me at Fort Hunter Liggett. You want to say I’m wrong, give evidence because evidence is what brought me to where I am. My military became the most powerful in the world without Rippedtoe’s fitness standard. Few of my military buddies have serious upper-body strength yet their personal stories demonstrate competence. Getting around Pinnacles National Park is much easier when you weigh 200lbs than 250lbs whether it’s muscle or fat. Therefore, I called BS.

  81. Cane Caldo says:

    @Gunner

    C’mon man.

    One in this debate is currently an officer in the Army, and who served in the territory. The other guy heard his friends say some stuff about a place he’s never been.

  82. sipcode says:

    The problem with essentially all discussions about male and female is that we start from a carnal POV, which is simply to say we start from our experience and observation. God wants us to start with Him, to start with our spiritual self which is simply taking the plain truth of scripture on faith and not testing it too our standards.

    That said : it is clear in God’s word that there is zero equality, women are to follow the lead of men, they are to look at their man as lord and in general all men as above them, they are to be substantially seen and not heard, they should have very little influence on men except in the very few instance prescribed in scripture, plus all the submit, respect, obey, etc.

    Yet, we get trapped in the web of ‘women can do this better than men.’ We are blaspheming His word falling for this. Just practice saying “God does not want it that way. Are you going to fight God?”

  83. Gunner Q says:

    “One in this debate is currently an officer in the Army, and who served in the territory. The other guy heard his friends say some stuff about a place he’s never been.”

    Sigh, I’ve been through so much betrayal that this quote is exactly how I AM able to disagree with Oscar. A trained professional who has lived what he talks about is obviously untrustworthy. But Oscar is trustworthy, he’s one of us and my switch happened to get tripped.

    Look at all these Hellspawned bastards. Professional military brass who lie shamelessly about their feminist intentions, knowing they’re sabotaging military effectiveness. Clergy who have made Christianity and Scripture their life’s work but lie about Christ and say Scripture is wrong. White politicians who legislate white genocide. Even private-sector employers who insist on hiring women to do a man’s job then cover up the inevitable failures and make unholy alliances with tyrants. All the people who should and do know better betray our trust then lie to us about it. ALL of them. They lie and lie and cover each other’s lies. If I don’t trust my own senses and thoughts over the assurances of those who really do know what they’re talking about then I’ll be quickly reduced to a gullible idiot. Sometimes it’s hard to believe that not all experts are selling snake oil.

    These days are so bad, I can look a career military officer in the eye, tell him he’s wrong about how the military should work and be correct more often than not. Hearsay from my friends is more reliable than official reports filed by experienced correspondents. And the only guy I get the chance to snap at is the guy who least deserves it.

    This world sucks.

  84. feeriker says:

    Just practice saying “God does not want it that way. Are you going to fight God?”

    I’ve actually had people –both men and women– say “just how do YOU know what God wants?” after I’ve quoted Scripture that very specifically describes EXACTLY what God wants. So, yes, people WILL fight God. They’ll just never admit that that’s what they’re doing.

  85. greyghost says:

    GunnerQ
    You summed it up.

  86. feeriker says:

    Gunner Q says:
    August 18, 2016 at 12:42 am

    I hear ya, brother. It’s a shame that we’ve had to condition ourselves as we have, but it’s become all about survival.

  87. Emily says:

    I don’t understand how some women would want to have a strong muscular buch upper body. Do they want to be a man?? What’s the point they are trying to make?? It so unattractive in women and not feminine whatsoever. I take ballet/yoga classes it strengths the body but keeps my body slim, tone and feminine looking. I love my arms and legs there slim and tone and my waist is small. I know I can’t carry really heavy things so I don’t act or try to carry things when I know I can hurt myself (I try to take care of my body) just because I want to show off. That’s why my boyfriend, brother who is much younger than I am or father never hesitate to help me carry heavy things for me which i really appreciate them for and praise them for it. In return I always prepare them their favorite meals and always buy them their favorite beers to go with it as a sign of gratitude. Men are beautiful human creatures which I love because they are different from a women in every single way. And no women and men are not equals because we are different!! we balance each other out and offer different things. It not about equality it should be about fairness. As for the marine corps/military they should only allow men to join let men be men do their thing without a women butting in…it makes things more difficult.

  88. Oscar says:

    @ Gunner Q says:
    August 17, 2016 at 7:16 pm

    “So the drownings are actually aircraft crashes on water. I was expecting to hear flash floods but either way, that’s not poor swimming standards.”

    That was only one example, and yes it is. The good swimmers survived, the poor swimmers did not.

    “Salka is a hero but he get a bronze star for performing what you think should be a minimally acceptable effort. What am I supposed to think?”

    You’re supposed to think that he received a Bronze Star for risking his life to save a fellow Marine’s life, not for meeting a physical standard. Knowing that your buddy next to you can and will do for you what (then) LT Salka did for that Lance does wonders for a combat unit’s morale, and is a major reason why women shouldn’t be allowed in combat units (or the military in general, really).

    “I mentioned that about me because the idea of women being unable to do the exercise despite the advantages of being half my weight and shorter arms is laughable. My apologies if I gave the impression of being a weakling.”

    The fact that you can’t do a pull-up indicates that you haven’t done much strength training and therefore don’t know its benefits. So does your assertion that a 400 lb deadlift makes a man a “musclhead”. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

    “Getting around Pinnacles National Park is much easier when you weigh 200lbs than 250lbs whether it’s muscle or fat. Therefore, I called BS.”

    I’ve never been to Pinnacles National Park. Have you conducted route clearance missions in the Hidu Kush that required you to walk 20+ Km while carrying a basic combat load plus IED detection equipment?

    I have.

    And I can tell you that fat-but-strong Soldiers performed better under those conditions than the skinny kids who flew through the Army Physical Fitness Test (I used to be one, by the way). They were less fatigued and less prone to injury, and therefore more alert and better prepared to fight through an ambush if necessary. Why? Because they were stronger, and therefore the weight they had to carry was a smaller percentage of the weight they could carry, and therefore placed less stress on their bodies.

    And that is one major reason I don’t want women in combat units, although the most important reason is actually psychological (or maybe sociological, I’m not sure). I’ve served in all-male units and I’ve served in mixed sex units, and the all-male units simply worked more smoothly, though I’ve never been able to articulate why. I kind of wish Cane had served, because he’s much more eloquent than I, and has a talent for explaining this kind of thing.

  89. Feminist Hater says:

    The talking heads focus on pull-ups because they and their audience have at least some reference point on that subject. They have zero reference points for what is the actual problem. When I went through the Sapper Leader Course, we rotated through the different positions in our squads and platoon. When I was the M240B ammo bearer, my combat load approached 120 lb.

    Try putting 120 lb on a 135 lb female. THAT is the problem.

    Yeah, you’re right. The issue of pull-ups is to distract from the problem of females not being able to effectively carry their own weight, nor fight the enemy to a proper standard with the minimal of training. The amount of training needed to turn a woman into a combat effective infantrymen would probably be the equivalent of being able to train 10 or more men to be just as effective and is thus a major waste of resources and time.

    Dalrock linked awhile back to an article from a female, can’t remember her army details, but she complained about basically all the injuries that she sustained, not from enemy fire, but from not being able to carry her load properly. These were life shortening and painful injuries that left her weaker than before and infertile. Not just some sore knees or ankles.

  90. Lost Patrol says:

    Once more a typical Dalrock thread brings forth multiple deep philosophical and psychological truths.

    @Oscar: “I’ve served in all-male units and I’ve served in mixed sex units, and the all-male units simply worked more smoothly, though I’ve never been able to articulate why.”

    Maybe you can’t articulate it, nor can I, but you could without doubt regale us all day long with specific examples of why this is an epic disaster in the offing. Dalrock, Rollo, and many of the commenters here could explain the concepts at play much better than I. It has to do with some toxic brew of hypergamy, solipsism, white knighting by men who are extremely conflicted by this white knighting at multiple levels even as they are doing it. There is more but I’m already faltering.

    @Sipcode: “That said : it is clear in God’s word that there is zero equality, women are to follow the lead of men, they are to look at their man as lord and in general all men as above them, they are to be substantially seen and not heard, they should have very little influence on men except in the very few instance prescribed in scripture, plus all the submit, respect, obey, etc.”

    I wonder what really would happen if this became the standard? Women would be highly esteemed. Treasured even, because most men have never seen anything remotely like this. Eventually, would we be doomed to pedestalize them because now they really seem to belong there? Ironically starting up some version of everything that’s led to the current demise?

  91. Bike Bubba says:

    I don’t understand how some women would want to have a strong muscular buch upper body. Do they want to be a man??

    Emily FTW here. Let’s be honest; what’s going on here is not any real discussion of whether women ought to be in combat. What is rather going on is that some feminists desire that some among their number become generals and admirals, and to achieve this, they’ve got to obliterate the real, glorious, wonderful distinctions between men and women.

    And in the process, get a lot of men and women needlessly killed because combat units are loaded down with people who simply can’t physically do the job. Nobody hates the average woman like a feminist does.

  92. sipcode says:

    As “Bike Bubba” says, this is what is going on in the military — this time the Navy. This is all like a tree that looks fine on the outside but is rotten on the inside and a casual storm takes it down. This that follows, an email I’ve received:

    Here’s our New Vice Chief of Naval Operations!

    Michelle Janine Howard is a United States Navy admiral who now is the 38th Vice Chief of Naval Operations.
    Born: April 30, 1960 (age 56), in Riverside County, California, CA
    Spouse: Wayne Cowles. Service/branch: United States Navy
    Commands held: Vice Chief of Naval Operations, PHIBRON
    Education: Gateway High School, US Naval Academy, Awards: NAACP Image Award – Chairman’s Award.
    QUALIFICATIONS NONE: No Ships, No Command Experience, No Combat Experience, but lots of Diversity.
    It is criminal what Obama did to the Navy, and to all branches of our military. Hopefully this will soon be over!
    All you sailors out there, salute your new Vice Chief of Naval Operations, Obama’s new Admiral – as of April 22, 2016
    How did she get 7 rows of ribbons, without any combat? Well, she showed up for work most of the time, (3 rows), is female (2.5 rows), and a minority (1.5 rows).
    Admiral Michelle Howard does not command the US Navy, but she was recently promoted to Vice Chief of Naval Operations, second in command to be CNO (Chief of Naval Obamanations. (Sic.). The process leading to her promotion to 4 star rank, is unique in our peacetime (?) Navy. Obama wants to promote her to Chief of Naval Operations.
    She commanded only one non-capital ship, the USS Rushmore (LSD-47), when she was promoted to Flag rank, which was unique. She eventually became the Senior Military Assistant to the Secretary of the Navy, through January 2009. Then Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus pushed her through one senior billet after another, bypassing highly qualified, combat-trained, more senior Flag Officers! During this process, she went to Command and Staff Colleges, to prepare her for new assignments. Mabus’ careful guidance led her to her current billet.
    In the last 7 years, Obama has altered the selection process for Flag and General Officers, by ensuring each potential selectee’s compliance with his “social Experiment On Diversity”, as a condition for promotion to Admiral or General.
    In the last 7 years, Obama fired more than 250 highly qualified and combat-trained Flag, General and Senior Officers. A few should have been relieved, but many were doing a superb job when they were suddenly dumped.
    Respectfully,
    Joseph R. John, USNA ’62
    Capt, USN (Ret)
    Chairman, Combat Veterans For Congress PAC
    2307 Fenton Parkway, Suite 107-184
    San Diego, CA 92108

  93. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    What do you military veterans think about the theory that, due to high-tech modern warfare, physical strength is no longer important? That women are just as good at operating drones and firing missiles, thousands of miles from the battle.

  94. sipcode says:

    Lost Patrol says: August 18, 2016 at 7:49 am

    “I wonder what really would happen if this became the standard? Women would be highly esteemed. Treasured even, because most men have never seen anything remotely like this. Eventually, would we be doomed to pedestalize them because now they really seem to belong there? Ironically starting up some version of everything that’s led to the current demise?”

    I would not be so pessimistic LP. You are stating you don’t have faith in God’s word, that His word is not powerful when acted upon. Certainly men will have to overcome bad habits of how they have viewed women [idolized them; I’m guilty!] but I’m talking about some women REALLY embracing this; men will see it as real. Certainly the vast majority of people [wide the path to destruction] will violently reject this but that is part of the reality of it all …God’s people becoming separate … to Him.

    feeriker says: August 18, 2016 at 2:18 am

    “I’ve actually had people –both men and women– say “just how do YOU know what God wants?” after I’ve quoted Scripture that very specifically describes EXACTLY what God wants. So, yes, people WILL fight God. They’ll just never admit that that’s what they’re doing.”

    True, but we never stop professing Jesus as the Word, even in the face of a strong and violent head wind. Thanks to all that speak up on Dalrock and their own little circle. More and more men are getting it. Be bold — past the Light on !

  95. sipcode says:

    RP Latecomer: It still comes down to the base problem of women getting into the man’s world. That is blasphemy. That is taking the Lord’s name in vain. It is not the practical issues — those are simply symptoms. It is the spiritual issues – the illness.

    I have the privilege of spending a few days next week alone with the head of worldwide special warfare for one branch of the military. I do not ask many questions except to what he has volunteered, but in my several times with him it is evident he is holding on to a rope that is slipping out of his hands. Naturally, he is a tough SOB to get to where he is but it is subtly evident what is going on. Yet, there is an undertow of primarily retired military that are voicing up. Maybe too late. But still God has a plan. Speak up all !

  96. feeriker says:

    What do you military veterans think about the theory that, due to high-tech modern warfare, physical strength is no longer important? That women are just as good at operating drones and firing missiles, thousands of miles from the battle.

    Spend a day at sea aboard any of Uncle Sam’s grey yachts and find yourself having fight a fire, move heavy equipment, swap out full suites of electronics, or doubletime it to a battle station on the other side of the ship in under a minute during general quarters (GQ) drills or actual battle situations. That will answer that question.

  97. feeriker says:

    Yet, there is an undertow of primarily retired military that are voicing up. Maybe too late. But still God has a plan. Speak up all !

    The most pressing, burning, all-important question I have concerning those poor, lost souls who remain on active duty today is this: When (not IF) the tyrant Sockpuppet-in-Chief (whoever it might be) gives the order to impose martial law, how many will blindly obey? How many will remember their Oaths of Commissioning/Enlistment and do the right thing?

  98. Bike Bubba says:

    What do you military veterans think about the theory that, due to high-tech modern warfare, physical strength is no longer important? That women are just as good at operating drones and firing missiles, thousands of miles from the battle.

    You don’t need to be a veteran to figure this one out. Wars are not won with bombers or drones, but with boots on the ground. So all you need to do to refute this idea is to go hunting for a weekend, but with the provision that you can’t leave your tent, food, sleeping bag, and the like in camp. You must carry it.

    I guarantee you that by Saturday night, you will believe in the importance of physical aptitude for the military, even though your pack was nowhere near as heavy as an infantryman’s, and even though you never met a deer that had the opportunity to kill you if he wanted to.

  99. Heresolong says:

    “And yes, fit women can do pull-ups, though not as many as fit men. ”

    She is in incredible shape, obviously a gym rat, and still could barely do twenty. When I was in college NROTC I did twelve and I was a bit overweight and never went to the gym. The guys who worked out were ripping out twenty plus with no effort at all. More power to her if that’s what she wants to do, but it’s just more evidence.

  100. technovelist says:

    In the 1960’s, Richard Fariña referred to “female Marines” in a satirical song:
    http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107858743501/

  101. Is This Thing On? says:

    Have you noticed how feminine the average millennial boy is today? I don’t know if it is because of all the estrogen mimickers in the food today or what, but one day feminists might actually get their statistical parity when it comes to this topic. The weakening of the modern male is every bit as important to this as is the propping up of the modern female.

  102. cynthia says:

    I’m late to the party but I’ve got direct experience with this.

    Important to note: the only place in the US military where females are required to do pull-ups to the same standard as men are the service academies. Marine females do a flexed arm hang. All you do is jump up and freeze your arms. It still sucks, but it ain’t pull ups.

    The service academy scale for females is a third that of men; 7 pull-ups is maximum points for women, while men have to do 21.

    The service academies get to pull from a massive applicant pool, sometimes up to 40K candidates, of which they accept under 1500. Applicants are overwhelmingly involved in varsity sports. The entry fitness test is rough. Essentially, females accepted to the service academies are very young, very athletic, and have literally nothing to do during the week except academics and athletics.

    Now, the scoring standards are an average of the scores earned by the females of the Class of 1980. The girls who came in 1976. ’76, before we had supplements, modern training techniques, and higher K-12 athletic expectations on young girls. Almost fifty years ago, and there has been ZERO improvement in the aggregate female performance.

    Most of us still couldn’t do more than 3 pull-ups. In fact, I can’t recall anyone ever scoring the full 7. Most girls over about 5’4″ struggled mightily. Getting one pull-up was an accomplishment if you were an average height. At that point, your body weight:strength ratio is just not sufficient.

    It has fucking nothing to do with “socialization” or “training”. These dudes are idiots. They have no idea what they’re talking about. I spent four years, chronically injuring myself, training for this event, and it is HARD. Our bodies aren’t built for it. We don’t have the muscle. Women structurally lack the ability to do a lot of this shit. Our upper body strength is just not there. No matter what you do with her, how you train her, how much time you spend, the average female is never going to be able to meet the male standard on things like this.

  103. Anon says:

    The USAF Academy doesn’t require full pull-ups for women.

  104. cynthia says:

    @Anon

    I’m a grad. I know what I’m talking about.

    The entrance PT test has a flexed arm hang. They require pull-ups once you’re at the school on the actual PFT. You’re allowed to use a chair to get up to the bar, but that’s it.

  105. than comment from cynthia is a gem

  106. Avraham rosenblum says:

    And thank you sipcode for that amazing letter which says it all and needs no commentary.

  107. Oscar says:

    @ Heresolong says:
    August 18, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    “She is in incredible shape, obviously a gym rat, and still could barely do twenty. When I was in college NROTC I did twelve and I was a bit overweight and never went to the gym. The guys who worked out were ripping out twenty plus with no effort at all. More power to her if that’s what she wants to do, but it’s just more evidence.”

    She’s more than a gym rat. She’s a pro athlete, and one of only two women to be twice crowned “fittest woman on Earth” (although, to be fair, she stated that she did 4×4 weighted chin-ups before the max set in the video). So yes, it’s more evidence, but people keep missing the bigger issues from which pull-ups are a distraction.

    The standard loads Soldiers have to carry in modern combat are a far greater issue than three measly pull-ups. Pretty much any young, athletic woman can be trained to do three pull-ups. Physically, that is far from the biggest issue. Put a 60 lb combat load on a 135 lb female, and you’ll quickly discover what is the bigger issue.

    But there’s an even bigger issue than that – the psychological. As I stated earlier, I’ve served in all-male units, and I’ve served in mixed sex units, and all-male units simply function more smoothly. They have more unit cohesion, more teamwork, they train harder, the discipline is tougher, the competition is more intense, they have less conflict, less drama and less stress.

    THAT is the real reason why women shouldn’t be allowed in the military.

  108. Dalrock says:

    @Oscar

    …people keep missing the bigger issues from which pull-ups are a distraction.

    The standard loads Soldiers have to carry in modern combat are a far greater issue than three measly pull-ups. Pretty much any young, athletic woman can be trained to do three pull-ups. Physically, that is far from the biggest issue. Put a 60 lb combat load on a 135 lb female, and you’ll quickly discover what is the bigger issue.

    From what I have read, Soldiers are carrying a load that is at the limits of the male human body. Technical advances haven’t helped here, and have in fact added to the weight. The loads are right on the edge of what a man in excellent condition can carry, and over time this is causing muscular skeletal injuries. Women’s frames are smaller, and you can’t fix that with training. Moreover, there are reasons for carrying the heavy loads. Lightening the loads means making the forces less effective, which means losing some fights you otherwise would have one, or missions failing which otherwise would have succeeded. What should we have our Soldiers do without? Ammo? Water? Food? Body armor? Night vision?

    And this is all before considering what you point out is the much bigger issue of moral.

  109. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock and Oscar

    And this is all before considering what you point out is the much bigger issue of moral.

    It must be addressed before exoskeletons arrive and I get killed by CPL Ashalee Farnsworth-Dukai in some remote location of the US.

  110. Pingback: Why can’t women do pull ups? It’s a culture thing. — Dalrock – MARITAL STATUS AND STYLE

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