What causes all of the consternation about housework?

This week Lori Alexander of Always Learning had a Facebook post go viral with a cacophony of feminist clucking.  In the post Lori suggested that wives not focus on the amount of houswork their husbands did, but instead:

…do your housework cheerfully, as unto the Lord.  Remember, you didn’t marry your husband to help with the household chores.  You married him to be your protector and provider.  You also should have married him because you deeply loved him, wanted to be a great help meet to him…

This outstanding post predictably drove feminists mad, and the criticism from feminists lead Lori’s husband Ken to write his own post.  Ken explained that godly husbands should do housework, but that if a husband is sinning in this way his wife should just do the housework cheerfully anyway.  Lori’s focus was on the toxicity of feminist resentment.  Ken agrees that wives should fight against the resentment, but also shifted the focus towards the sinful husbands he contends are (generally) the reason wives feel this resentment in the first place (emphasis mine):

The reason it struck such a viral cord is twofold: First because it did not fit with the progressive women’s agenda that a wife married to a husband unwilling to meet her expectations should just take the high road and love him anyway. Second, because this is one of the hottest sources of frustration for most wives in the modern world.

In the discussion Ken reiterated that he does not see the frustration as emanating from a feminist mindset, but as coming from husbands not helping their wives enough:

I am also not referencing the source of the feminist resentment, but the resentment felt by a wife who feels frazzled with a home, with a brood to manage, while feeling her husband is not helping her enough.

In the discussion Ken does leave open the possibility that an individual husband might not be sinning if his wife feels this resentment, but his general thrust in both the post and in the discussion is for the husband to do more of whatever work his wife identifies as the source of her resentment.

What Ken has misunderstood is the true source of the resentment.  The resentment does not come from an excess of work or an unfair distribution of work, but envy of men.  This is why women who haven’t overcome this envy will complain bitterly no matter how much better they have it than their husbands.  He may be doing dirty, backbreaking, dangerous work, but he isn’t stuck being a woman like she is.  It isn’t the work, but what the work represents to her.  The problem is that the work reminds her that she is a woman.

This is why during the height of World War II Margaret Sanger understood that the women in her audience would identify with a resentful wife who complained about being “trapped” caring for a young child while her husband had the good fortune to be fighting in Europe.  Sanger knew that this would resonate with women, because the reality of the respective lots of the man and woman are entirely irrelevant:

…now the wife.. who was really just a girl.. was feeling trapped and rebellious. She loved her baby ↑of course↓ , and well she might, because he was a beautiful child, but she was beginning to feel very bitter toward her husband because she said that she could tell from his letters that he was actually enjoying the ↑excitement of↓ war! Already he had been to Iceland, England, Africa, and Italy! Oh, she was willing to admit there were plenty of hardships connected with it… but what had she been doing all this long while? Just staying home day after day minding the baby! “When he gets home,” she told me, “he can just sit with the baby for a while and see what it’s like. I’m going out and have some fun!”

I could see her point of view… what woman couldn’t? You don’t have to be a war bride to feel trapped… many a house-wife gets that feeling just watching her husband go off to the office every morning while she stays home facing the same meals, dishes, and children. How many divorces have their beginnings in just this very feeling of imprisoned futility?

What Sanger calls “imprisoned futility”, Betty Friedan called “The Problem That Has No Name”.  This is absolutely a feminist feeling, and was the battle cry that launched the modern feminist movement.

In his post Ken describes a situation from their own marriage many years ago that echoes the common pattern.  Ken was working sixty hour weeks and frequently had to travel for business.  When he was home he helped with some of the housework, but not all of it.  Lori would be generally happy when he was home, but once he went on the road other women would start whispering discontentment in her ears*:

I was talking to a friend today and she told me that you really should be helping me more. What I need is more help. My friend’s and sisters’ husbands help their wives more.

It is important to realize that no matter how much Ken had helped, these women whispering in Lori’s ear wouldn’t have stopped.  No amount of washing dishes would have made them stop tempting his wife into feminist envy and rebellion.  And no amount of vacuuming would have made the envy go away.  When wives feel this way they think they can sooth the discontent by forcing their husbands to experience the shame they have in being a woman.  They think that by making him vacuum, dust, change diapers, or whatever, they will transfer the consuming feeling of resentment from themselves to their husbands**.  But the source of the misery is in the woman’s own rejection of being a woman, in her own heart, not in anything inherent to the work itself.  This is why it only makes wives more miserable when their husbands cheerfully do these very easy tasks.  They wanted to make him suffer, to feel the shame (in their minds) of being a woman, but maddeningly he feels no such thing.

You can test all of this by offering suggestions to the next woman who complains to you that her husband doesn’t do enough housework.  My wife hears this complaint from other Christian wives all of the time.  Each time she starts by giving them time to explain why their no good husband isn’t doing enough around the house.  Then my wife offers suggestions that don’t involve the wife assuming authority over her husband and making him do work the the woman (falsely) believes is humiliating.  For women with children old enough to help, she advises having the children do more of the housework.  Other times she will identify time consuming work the woman is focusing on which could just as well be left undone.  In other cases she will suggest ways to get a “problem” job done that better frees up her day (cooking with a crock pot, etc).  The response is always the same, because the issue is not about the woman having too much work.  Invariably once the discussion turns toward solutions that don’t involve making the husband do more housework, the women lose all interest in the conversation.

*Note that even though Ken is telling wives not to nurse their resentment, he is at the same time whispering in their ears that a husband who doesn’t meet their expectations is sinning.  He says don’t feel resentment, while confirming their suspicions that their husband is the source of the problem.  In doing this second part he is inadvertently playing the same role with the women who read his wife’s blog that her friends and sisters played while he was away on business.

**This is very similar to the feminist impulse to dress men as women.

This entry was posted in Armchair Husbands, Attacking headship, Envy, Fatherhood, Margaret Sanger, Marriage, Miserliness, Rebellion, Submission, Ugly Feminists, Whispers. Bookmark the permalink.

494 Responses to What causes all of the consternation about housework?

  1. Pingback: What causes all of the consternation about housework? – Manosphere.org

  2. donalgraeme says:

    This is a straight-up Grand Slam post Dalrock.

  3. donalgraeme says:

    Note that even though Ken is telling wives not to nurse their resentment, he is at the same time whispering in their ears that a husband who doesn’t meet their expectations is sinning.

    This is something that needs to be targeted immediately. Ken should have addressed whether those wives had good expectations or not. To automatically assume they had good expectations is to cede the high ground to the enemy without a fight. By agreeing with the haters, Ken has allowed them to focus this conversation on the husbands, instead of the women themselves. That flies completely counter to the purpose that Lori is supposedly working towards in the first place.

  4. Pingback: What causes all of the consternation about housework? | Alt-Right View

  5. Heidi_storage says:

    I thought it was brave of the woman to post something that is so deeply unpopular. Kind of a shame her husband redirected focus back onto Those Bad Men instead of simply affirming that women really ought to be doing their work joyfully. (Which I fail at–a lot–but I do try not to lie to myself and pretend that said failure is a virtue.)

  6. Nathan Bruno says:

    Imagine if women had to do back breaking labor to clean the house, sterilize the cookware and utensils, beat the carpets, mangle the clothes, and did not have time to be bored and thus seduced into their sin nature of simply resenting their husbands for being male and therefore, obviously better. They would be in better physical shape, too, as it’s hard to drink and sit when you’re lifting, walking, hefting, and hauling.

    These same bitter bitties get angry if Mr. Mom jumps in and does it too well, or too quickly, or, worst of all, enjoys doing something for his family.

    What was that we saw last month? Men enjoy doing housework and get fulfillment from it, but it’s by far not the best use of their time considering we saw last month that women are constitutionally predisposed to work, at most, 30 hours a week, whereas God made man to be able to shoulder 50-60 hours of work a week.

    Imagine how great the world would be if we never had the washing machine or the dish washer or the vacuum cleaner.

  7. JDG says:

    Spot on!!!

  8. Nathan Bruno says:

    It makes sense that the first thing the feminist program did was to devalue all of the old feminine crafts because it took away the natural list of things to fill the time. If there was something to look forward to doing – e.g., making clothes, making artwork, moral instruction of the children, reading, learning a foreign language, play a musical instrument, sing, dance, all sorts of forgotten crafts – then your average housewife wouldn’t think too much about these whispers, because she’d manage her time, expedite getting the housework done, so that she could get onto something else, there wouldn’t be room to complain. It’s the surfeit of free time and the lack of any sense on urgency in getting tasks done that turns the metric from “how much time is he working” as a complaint instead of just focusing on getting those things done efficiently.

    What was the joke on Family Guy when Meg and Lois switched jobs? She got it all done by noon when she prioritized her time so she could do something else with her afternoon.

  9. feeriker says:

    I think a post is in order, preferably from Lori Alexander or another woman like her (or even better yet, from a woman who has recently celebrated her 100th birthday) titled something along the lines of “Housework Getting You Down, Ladies? Well, Let Me Give You Spoiled, Lazy Bitches Something to REALLY Whine About!, at which point the article would launch into a detailed, no-holds-barred description of what housework was like for women before MEN invented technology to make women’s domestic lives easier*, often working 60 to 80-plus hours per week to make it happen so that wives would STILL have something to complain about.

    Note that even though Ken is telling wives not to nurse their resentment, he is at the same time whispering in their ears that a husband who doesn’t meet their expectations is sinning. He says don’t feel resentment, while confirming their suspicions that their husband is the source of the problem. In doing this second part he is inadvertently playing the same role with the women who read his wife’s blog that her friends and sisters played while he was away on business.

    WOW. That Ken would still feel the need to throw in some groveling and appeasement tells me that even his own wife must still have a residual feminist streak in her. I don’t suppose that there is any chance whatsoever of a Lori Alexander clone writing a Christian equivalent of this:

    http://judgybitch.com/2012/10/27/no-my-husband-doesnt-do-any-housework-why-the-fuck-should-he/

    (* I’m sure many among us hope that these guys are burning in hell for that stupid, short-sighted move)

  10. MrMasculine says:

    This is the most succinct and well-written article on penis envy I’ve ever read. Envy is the worst of all negative emotions. You actually want a person to not have that which they are entitled to.

  11. Wilson says:

    Think there is hypergamy at work, the woman feels entitled to a luxury lifestyle with servants and leisure provided by an apex alpha, the beta husband must be punished for his unworthiness.

  12. TL;DR: Never concede an inch to feminists

  13. Cane Caldo says:

    @Feeriker

    WOW. That Ken would still feel the need to throw in some groveling and appeasement tells me that even his own wife must still have a residual feminist streak in her.

    If there is, I haven’t seen it. Lori’s post was great; as are most of her posts. And your reasoning here betrays the very error that led Ken off-target, which is: If a wife is feminist it is because her husband failed. You just reversed it to: If a husband has failed, his wife must be a feminist. As you can see, the error is common among men because many men want to show themselves as The Man.

  14. donalgraeme says:

    @ Feeriker

    WOW. That Ken would still feel the need to throw in some groveling and appeasement tells me that even his own wife must still have a residual feminist streak in her. I don’t suppose that there is any chance whatsoever of a Lori Alexander clone writing a Christian equivalent of this:

    That is the thing- I don’t think that she needs to have that residual feminist streak in her. You see, it isn’t Lori who has the feminist streak- it is Ken. He is the one who felt obliged to take a swipe at husbands who “don’t live up to expectations.” This is an easy feelgood thing for him to do- because attacking men is easy. Attacking women…? Now that is another matter entirely.

  15. Cane Caldo says:

    It would have been better to ignore the meaningless attacks on the viral post and then serve up another of the same. The howling is a hit target. Fire away!

  16. Spike says:

    Housework! Feminists shy away from housework like Dracula does a wooden stake in those old Hammer Horror movies starring Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee.
    The facts are that washing machines, vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, lawnmowers were all invented by men (in the case of the washing machine, before mine ventilation) to make women’s lives easier. The proliferation of restaurants has meant the outsourcing of cooking, while high levels of immigration, with all of its accompanying problems, is the government’s attempts at outsourcing child-birth and rearing as a replacement workforce.
    Every man who lives by himself knows that it takes less than a minute to sort the laundry and place it in a washing machine. It takes minutes to wash up dishes and it takes about 30 minutes to vacuum a house. Yet feminists will try telling everyone who will listen that women have to “pick up his smelly socks and underwear…”. Yet the houses of feminist women themselves, even in the absence of men, look like a hand grenade has gone off inside the room.Any order is there due to desperate attempts to cling to the past when they were ‘hot’, and perhaps the makeup pile is ordered.
    Ultimately, feminist women are bone-lazy, as are leftist men, the manginas who pursue them.

  17. embracingreality says:

    Swell, nice to know that on the rare occasion when a woman actually gets it there’s some nice guy like Ken to relieve women of any badly needed accountability and carry on the status quo, blame men.

    Can’t win, single men should take note, just stay single.

  18. feeriker says:

    It would have been better to ignore the meaningless attacks on the viral post and then serve up another of the same. The howling is a hit target. Fire away!

    This.

    Donal said:

    That is the thing- I don’t think that she needs to have that residual feminist streak in her. You see, it isn’t Lori who has the feminist streak- it is Ken. He is the one who felt obliged to take a swipe at husbands who “don’t live up to expectations.” This is an easy feelgood thing for him to do- because attacking men is easy. Attacking women…? Now that is another matter entirely.

    Yes, that ‘s a good point, thanks. Very disappointing of Ken (though, alas, not surprising coming from any man, unless he’s known to be red pill).

  19. feeriker says:

    Ultimately, feminist women are bone-lazy, as are leftist men, the manginas who pursue them.

    I would imagine that if we could turn ourselves invisible and take a walk through a typical feminist’s house, it would be a foul pigpen. Unless, that is, she’s pulled the typical liberal hypocrite move and hired some poor Third World undocumented refugee woman to clean up her Chernobyl-grade filth for pennies per week.

  20. I want to say I’m surprised that it would be a “Christian” husband who would equate men’s lack of doing wives domestic chores with sinfulness,…but I’m not. It’s only a matter of time until pastors start shaming husbands for their inattentiveness in washing dishes while selling the now-passé Choreplay pablum to convince them they’ll be sexier for doing the dishes.

    https://therationalmale.com/2013/01/30/choreplay/

  21. KPP says:

    One angle on this that I have experienced is that when I “helped” with the housework, I seldom got any credit for it – my wife was still discontented, unhappy with me, complained that I didn’t do things the right way and still felt I didn’t really do anything. If she didn’t see it happening, it never happened. I got to the point where I was performing for her – making sure I helped out when she was there, mentioning in conversation what I had gotten done.

    This extended to time spent with the children as well – I never did anything with them according to her. I neglected them. Same thing – I had to perform. One time I logged everything I did around the house and all the time I spent with the kids in a spreadsheet for six months. When she accused me later of not helping out and neglecting the kids, I thought she’d finally have to acknowledge otherwise. Instead, she accused me of fabricating and padding the info.

    I was miserable. She was distant from me, there was no sex, and the more I tried to implement the advice in the marriage books, the more stressed things would get.

    Ah, but then… my eyes were opened. I began to see women and the influence of feminism in a new light. I flipped the script and we’re much happier these days. I set expectations on what the roles are and that my role didn’t include housework. Of course, I still pitch in occasionally to help where I see a need, but I don’t feel obligated to and don’t feel a need to perform for her. I spent decades throwing myself against a wall that is outside of my control. I finally realized that I cannot make her happy and I’m not trying to make her happy any more. She must find her happiness in Christ.

    Of course, your milage may vary. My wife takes the scriptures seriously and was never a sow-your-wild-oats, women-need-a-career woman. Once I rejected the crappy marriage advice we’d been receiving, it was fairly easy to redirect her in a healthy direction. We can still use some tweaks, but we’ll get there.

  22. Pingback: What causes all of the consternation about housework? | Reaction Times

  23. Princesses don’t vacuum! They are angles of pure light and not some sort of June Cleaver or Stepford wife. If only more husbands would serve and worship their goddess wives.

  24. Anon says:

    Remember that all the hatred about housework is because successful societies knew that women have lesser competence and are skilled at avoiding accountability. Low-risk tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry, and watching children are assigned to women simply because that is where a screwup carries little true cost.

  25. Anon says:

    The problem with naive blue-pill betas like Ken is that they think that ‘feminists’ only complain about things after doing a fair and balanced assessment, and then will meet him half way.

    The sheer magnitude of exemption from any standards of any sort that ‘feminists’ get (due to human FI hardwiring) boggles the mind.

  26. Anon says:

    Invariably once the discussion turns toward solutions that don’t involve making the husband do more housework, the women lose all interest in the conversation.

    And these are the supposedly conservative women in stable marriages….

    Gee, whenever I think that I overrated the benefits of avoiding marriage, I see something like this.

    As a single guy, housework takes 2 hours a week. A single guy doing this surely has a dwelling cleaner than virtually any female who calls herself a ‘feminist’ (these are people who are among the least hygenic people around).

  27. Neguy says:

    Ken’s frame control is weak. Lori held frame much better.

  28. Kevin says:

    Women today are pathetic. The “housework” women have today is trivial because machines do most the work. If you don’t do the housework it’s not great but the world does not end. If I don’t do my job, it’s a real disaster.

    So- do I do housework? Of course. I love my wife. But if I don’t have time? No way. It’s not my priority. This issue can be resolved just along specialization lines. Modern women complaining about housework must be communicating resentment because we went from 12-16 hours of home labor a day to about 3-5.

    As an aside, this disruptive technology is a source of our troubles. Women actually have too little to do at home, not too much.

  29. Scott says:

    D-
    If that link doesn’t work, you may still have some use for the image it contains or repost it some other way. Stuff like that litters my wall all day, every day.

  30. Moses says:

    I didn’t realize how deep the rot had penetrated in American culture until I got married.

    I met and married my wife in Asia. She has traditional values in spades — she believes it’s her responsibility to cook, keep house and take care of the children. My responsibility is to provide for and protect the family and take care of big stuff (education saving, health care decisions, housing etc.). She’s not Christian but believes fully in the husband’s headship. We have domestic help but she still does plenty. Incidentally, we run a business together. She’s not a stay at home mother.

    In our division of responsibilities I don’t cook or do housework. My mother, sister and father made it a point always to ask my wife “Is Moses helping you cook? Is he doing his share around the house?” The way they spoke it was like I was some kind of lazy layabout, and it was their mission to “Set things right.”

    It got so bad I finally told them directly to butt out of our marriage. I don’t tell them how to run their marriages, kindly stay out of mine. They got the message, fortunately.

    I cannot imagine either of my grandmothers hassling my parents in this way. Something has changed in the last 50 years. Readers of this blog all know what it is.

  31. Anon says:

    As an aside, this disruptive technology is a source of our troubles. Women actually have too little to do at home, not too much.

    No. Don’t blame technological progress which is unstoppable anyway.

    A better rephrasement of your sentence would be : “Women are obsolete, for everything that should be making modern society superior to centuries past is instead used by women for negative, counterproductive purposes.”

  32. Anon says:

    Moses,

    My mother, sister and father made it a point always to ask my wife

    So your own family was treating you this way. Imagine if her family were also in the US *in addition*. They would not butt out upon request either…

    It really seems that most men are up against impossible odds.

  33. Mineter says:

    The hoary old choreplay chestnut.
    Husbands doing more interior housework is not the solution, especially if the exterior housework and building maintenance is neglected. I made this mistake.
    Nowadays, I take glee in finding “manly” work to do in order to have a perfect excuse not to do interior stuff. I’m getting as little sex as I was previously, but with much less effort and stress.
    Books like MMSLP have been enormously helpful to me.
    The point about the complaining wives not wanting an actual solution to their perceived problems is quite telling. The only way to stop the complaints is to make it blatantly obviously that you will no longer listen or do anything about it.
    Having said that, gentlemen, bloody well do your jobs! No less – who will do it for you, are you a child? And no more than “your” job. That shows that you and your time is less valuable than her and hers. Because it infantilises and demeans the wife, proving to her that she just can’t cut it. Tell her to quit her bitching, put on her big girl knickers and prove herself worthy of all her maternal ancestors who averaged many more children and fewer (or no) modern, time-saving, domestic appliances.

  34. Moses says:

    @Anon

    We still live in Asia. Her family operates on the same model we do. I’ve never seen her father do any housework. He does everything else though — installing washing machines, fixing lights, house maintenance. It works.

    Her mother lives with us and helps with the children. It’s awesome. Her mother actually was embarrassed when I washed a plate once. She snatched it from me and said she’d take care of it. She does let me change diapers and bathe the kids though. I like to help out, although it’s not expected.

    It’s hard to explain this way of living to my American buddies.

    The irony is America used to be like this. I remember how my grandmother and grandfather lived when I was a kid in the 1970s.

  35. feeriker says:

    It really seems that most men are up against impossible odds.

    Here in North America and in Western Europe, we most certainly are.

  36. Moses says:

    “It’s hard to explain this way of living to my American buddies.”

    What I mean is my wife treats housework and cooking responsibilities as an honor and a privilege. She enjoys doing them to take care of her family. It’s light years away from the contemporary feminist attitude that tasks related to family care are terrible, repressive burdens.

    I think that’s where my family’s admonishments were coming from — that cooking and cleaning for our family were some kind of horrible burden for my wife, and I was a poor husband for not lightening the load for her.

  37. TomG says:

    Sad that women can’t do the housework cheerfully. A man’s time is more valuable doing anything, but housework. Wouldn’t she be better off asking her husband to spend more time with the kids and paying attention to her emotional needs? Why is she taking forever to do these chores when the use of machines that should reduce housework to mere minutes. She is obviously not doing it right. Ken has weirded out evidently by saying a man is sinning. That’s a ridiculous leap. She is his helpmate, not the other way around.

  38. Yoda says:

    So what about making sammiches wonder I do..

  39. feeriker says:

    Ken has weirded out evidently by saying a man is sinning. That’s a ridiculous leap. She is his helpmate, not the other way around.

    Brings to mind Dalrock’s previous article(s ?) on theological cross-dressing.

    Remember: in modern churchianity, anything that a man does that displeases women is a sin (or more accurately, being a masculine man is a sin, with individual acts of masculinity [such as not doing housework] only further amplifying that sin).

    I do wonder if Lori ever told Ken “Sweetie, I didn’t ask you to put on your mangina-white knight costume and beat up on other husbands in my defense, especially since I never said men were the problem. If I ever need to beat up on husbands, all I have to do is ask my married women regular readers to help me. They’re professionals who will get the job done much better than you ever could.”

  40. Anon says:

    Lori seems surprisingly free of most ‘feminist’ dogma, yet Ken is an easily terrorized beta male…..

    Ken is not benefiting from the fact that Lori is one of the few women who can transcend the low default level that other women reside at. Ken would be equally happy with a nagging wife, as he does not have a higher expectation.

  41. feeriker says:

    I think that’s where my family’s admonishments were coming from — that cooking and cleaning for our family were some kind of horrible burden for my wife,

    It got to the point, before we separated, where I told my ex-wife not to cook anymore, that the kitchen was mine again from that point on. There are few things more miserable for a man than choking down food prepared by a woman who obviously doesn’t want to be in the kitchen, even if she is a good cook, and whose cooking reflects her apathy, misery, and discontent (THIS, guys, is the primary but certainly not the only reason why every man needs to become a Master of the Kitchen!). To me it was just one more indicator of how useless she intended to continue making herself to our marriage. Didn’t want to work, didn’t want to stay home, didn’t want to keep house, didn’t want to share the bedroom, didn’t want to live a life. THE consumate professional “Discontentment Consultant.” No way was I gonna eat sammiches prepared by THAT!

  42. Anon says:

    Invariably once the discussion turns toward solutions that don’t involve making the husband do more housework, the women lose all interest in the conversation.

    Note that since women don’t see the man’s outside job as work, this fully explains why women think men earn their paychecks out of thin air. Such a mentality feeds the belief in the ‘pay gap’, and a rejection of all logic-based demolitions of that myth. It also why so many women think that ‘sexism’ is the only reason that 50% of CEOs and big-time entrepreneurs are not women. The concept of productivity, value-added products and services, and innovation is just alien to them.

  43. feeriker says:

    Ken is not benefiting from the fact that Lori is one of the few women who can transcend the low default level that other women reside at. Ken would be equally happy with a nagging wife, as he does not have a higher expectation.

    I’m surprised there’s no marital strife between them due to him not considering her to be “assertive” enough, or her being “too much like a doormat by doing all the housework” by herself.

    Tragic. He caught a pearl, but would apparently be just as happy with a ball bearing.

  44. @ Scott Re: William Golding
    I can see what he’s getting at:

    -If you give your wife credit cards, you’ll be drowning in debt
    -If you put her on a pedestal, she’ll think she’s God
    -If you correct her about some of her errors, she’ll insist you’re wrong about everything
    -If you encourage her to be bold and daring, sooner or later she’ll put herself and/or others in mortal danger.

    The Red Pill lens has a way of rinating on the parades of the clueless.

  45. Actually, the dishwasher was invented by a woman, a hundred-odd years ago. She thought she had a sure-fire money maker, but when she surveyed housewives she was acquainted with, she found (gasp) they enjoyed washing dishes! They didn’t want her machine. It took a while for the dishwasher to catch on.

  46. In situ says:

    I used to give foreign language classes in a company where a couple worked. I once had a lesson just with the two of them and the conversation turned to the housework. She was visibly angry about how much she must do and how little does the husband does when he comes back from work.They were employing a lady who came once a week and cleaned the house, ironed clothes etc. The husband was shocked to learn that his wife had too much housework and offered to make the lady come twice or thrice, as often as the wife would see fit. I was happy that my lesson helped find a solution. For, it surely was a solution to the problem, all it takes is a bit of open communication, right? Wrong. If anything, the wife got madder – he was taking her argument point away. It turned out, she wasn´t angry about her doing too much but about his doing too little.

  47. Annie says:

    It’s really not about feminist entitlement or envy of men; it is rather to do with the fact that there are only 24 hours in a day, and women, just like men, get exhausted and overwhelmed.

    A woman who also works full-time does not have enough time to cook, wash the dishes, clean around the house, do laundry, fold/iron clothes, go shopping for food, dust, etc… There simply isn’t enough time in a day. As well, considering that the man also needs to live in a clean house, he needs to eat and he needs clean clothes, then he should definitely also pitch in. Unless he agrees for his wife to stay at home, and then it’s a whole different discussion.

    I’d say that men behaving like it’s a woman’s duty to do all of the above is a privilege, it shows their entitlement and how they perceive their wife as also being their servant.

  48. Avraham rosenblum says:

    Very often women need help with household chores. It is a good an important thing to help anyone that needs help. But making her think the chores are the man’s responsibility, begins a slippery slope towards a shifting of roles.

  49. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    feeriker: Didn’t want to work, didn’t want to stay home, didn’t want to keep house, didn’t want to share the bedroom, didn’t want to live a life.

    I think many women want to live awesome lives doing amazing things every day. Maybe one day a “charity event” that does not involve cleaning bedpans, but attending celebrity red carpets to raise money, where they can share the spotlight. The next day a trip to some exotic locale to promote some useless hair product. Mostly useless jobs which involve little work, but with much prestige, authority, and where they are the center of attention.

    Then they want to post about their amazing lives on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc., making all their grrlfriends jealous.

    The 1990s British TV show Absolutely Fabulous did a great job satirizing such women. Edina was a divorced single mother who lived off her alimony and child support, while running two glamorous, but money-losing, businesses where she did nothing very much except play boss.

  50. Dave says:

    We still live in Asia. Her family operates on the same model we do. I’ve never seen her father do any housework. He does everything else though — installing washing machines, fixing lights, house maintenance. It works.

    It is a bit of a surprise to me when I realized that married men here make dishwashing sound like some masculine job they have to do to impress their wives. I am not trying to suggest that men shouldn’t help around the house–or even wash dishes for that matter. Of course if the wife is indisposed, or not available due to some unexpected situation, a man could demonstrate his love for his wife by picking up the slack. But washing dishes as a matter of policy, when the wife is sitting on the sofa, watching reruns of Modern Family? Just doesn’t make any sense. Moreover, it’s been shown in studies that women don’t necessarily love and respect their dishwashing husbands more.

  51. Dave says:

    I think many women want to live awesome lives doing amazing things every day.

    I think all women are amazing and fabulous, and deserve an all expense paid vacation in Monaco at least once a year, because they are worth it.
    Ain’t it so, ladies?

  52. Dave says:

    @feeriker,

    …guys, is the primary but certainly not the only reason why every man needs to become a Master of the Kitchen!

    Having cooking skills is only half the problem. Having the energy to hop into the kitchen after a back breaking job during the day is quite another. There have been times that I get so completely exhausted after work that the thought of taking up another chore is very repulsive to me. I once woke up in the middle of the night, still wearing my work clothes. I had dozed off while sitting in a chair after I got home.
    If a wife is useless in making my life easier, what is the point of marrying her?

  53. I agree with this post by and large. I also really got a kick out of the link to the judgybitch post.

    That said, I don’t think the housework issue is always a jealousy issue today in 2016 because in many areas of the United States, it is very, very difficult to support a house on one income, and women end up working and doing most of the housework. In these situations, I do think the women are just exhausted and cranky about their very little downtime. Of course this is the result of women entering the workforce in the first place, bidding up the cost of living, but nevertheless the point remains.

    I feel very lucky because I work from home and my husband earns most of our money. I do the vast majority of the housework in my house happily, and I think because I don’t have a bad attitude about it, my husband graciously helps out with things when he sees I’m tired or there is a lot left to do.

    It’s amazing how far being nice will take you.

    Of course I’m still a bitch sometimes, as I was this morning when I woke up to candlewax he had spilled and not cleaned up all over our porch. But I try not to be😉

  54. Dave says:

    …Of course I’m still a bitch sometimes, as I was this morning when I woke up to candlewax he had spilled and not cleaned up all over our porch. But I try not to be…

    Still inexcusable. How often do you act bitchy towards someone you truly respect (e.g. your boss), even when they’ve done something to make you feel bitchy?
    Almost never.
    The fact is, the typical American woman has been told throughout her life that she is smarter, wiser, stronger and overall better than the men, and this makes it extremely difficult for her to truly respect her husband when she is lucky enough to have one. What women generally refer to as being nice to get a man to do their bidding is nothing more than pure, naked manipulation. And men are seeing through their acts.

  55. Dave says:

    …in many areas of the United States, it is very, very difficult to support a house on one income, and women end up working and doing most of the housework…

    It would not have been nearly half as difficult if women don’t push their husbands to embrace the so-called “American dream”, buying useless stuff and trying to be like the Joneses. A typical single man does not need much to live on; a part time job is more than enough to sustain most single guys’ lifestyles. But once they get married, their wives begin to dig them into bottomless holes of debts. The kitchen needs a do-over. The floors are not good enough. The house needs repainting. The neighborhood is not good enough. And that is how the bills start piling up and the man must not only work full time, but must find a second job or put in extra hours to meet the never ending financial demands of their wives.

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  57. Avraham rosenblum says:

    Dave’s comment was a classic: “How often do you act bitchy towards someone you truly respect (e.g. your boss), even when they’ve done something to make you feel bitchy?” Amazing clarity!

  58. To answer your question, the only thing that’s kept me from acting bitchy towards my boss is the fear of getting fired.

    And I do respect my husband, but as I live with him everyday, I am aware of both his faults and his strengths. There are no people on this earth who I respect in an unequivocal way – everyone is flawed. If you spend enough time with ANYONE, it’s impossible to keep them on a pedestal.

    You’re speaking as if being bitchy is something either brought on by negative emotions or not.

    In my view, being bitchy is a slip in upholding solid character. I can FEEL bitchy and not behave bitchy because it’s not who I want to be, to my husband or to anybody else.

    But I’m human and I slip sometimes.

  59. Fiddlesticks says:

    husband go off to the office every morning while she stays home facing the same meals, dishes, and children

    And this is usually a short gig for SAHMs. 2-3 children, born over a 5-year period…they’re in the house for all of 10 years then they spend 180+ days a year at school. While hubby has at least another 25 years of schlepping to the office ahead of him.

  60. Charlotte says:

    All I wanted was a husband who didn’t get upset if 100% of the housework wasn’t completed every day, because I knew that there would be days that illness, living with many little kids, or disruptive events like a flat tire would mean he’d come home to a sink full of dirty dishes. I didn’t care much if he never helped as long as he didn’t criticize me harshly when I did all that I could. Most of the non-feminist women I know feel the same way, and actually hate it when their husbands do housework. They interpret his need to help as a sign that their own housekeeping skills aren’t up to par and it makes them uncomfortable. They feel that having a husband who needs to help around the house is a sign of failure on their part the same way that a husband who needs his wife to work outside the home for pay is failing at his duty to provide and protect. It should make him uncomfortable even though such a situation is sometimes unavoidable in a bad economy, and a wife who didn’t complete her housework should feel uncomfortable too even when there were legitimate reasons she didn’t. In healthy people, those situations inspire a desire to work harder to correct it. It’s the psychologically unhealthy ones who sit and complain about things rather than fix them.

    In my experience, the vast majority of husbands have reasonable housework expectations. The women I know who complain that their husbands don’t help enough have much higher housework standards than their husbands do, and if they only did what they were able to do there would be no conflict. They really do just want to fight with their man and have chosen laundry as the battleground.

  61. Feminist Hater says:

    Oh for fuck sake. Why don’t one of these damn ‘leaders’ just get up and say: “If you don’t like it, don’t get married”. Done. They hate marriage so much, they should stop doing it. Far simpler. Instead, mindless drivel from Ken trying to explain a woman’s envy by pandering to their whims and blaming the husband.

    And listen, femcunts, we know if the shoe were on the other foot and the man did the housework and took care of the kids, you would just start complaining about how the man didn’t do enough to bring in the money. FUCK! Enough!

  62. Oscar says:

    Gents:

    Let’s apply some critical thought to the meme our esteemed colleague (Scott) shared.

    This doesn’t just mean that women are superior to men, it means that people are superior to God. God, after all, expects – indeed requires – a return on His investment when He blesses His people. Check out the Parable of the Talents.

    Matthew 25:14 “For [The Kingdom of Heaven] will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants[a] and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents,[b] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.[c] You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Note that the one servant who failed to earn for his master a 100% return on his investment is described as “wicked and slothful”, and “worthless”, while the servants who earned for their master a 100% return for his investment are described as “good and faithful servant[s]”.

    In other words, God expects ALL OF US to take the blessings we receive and work to make them greater than that which we received. We’re all expected to “multiply and enlarge what is given to [us]”, to quote the meme. A Christian who does that – whether male or female – is mere being a “good and faithful servant” doing exactly what is expected of him/her. One who does not, is “wicked, slothful and worthless”.

    Using some of the meme’s examples, when a husband gives his wife a house and she makes it a home, she’s being a “good and faithful servant” – to her husband, yes, but primarily to God. One who does not is “wicked, slothful and worthless”.

    When a husband gives his wife groceries and she makes a meal, she’s being a “good and faithful servant” – to her husband, yes, but primarily to God. One who does not is “wicked, slothful and worthless”.

    If that means she’s superior to her husband, then it also means she’s superior to God, because everything her husband gives her is a blessing from God. After all, “every good and perfect gift is from the Father” (James 1:17). Therefore, if multiplying what she’s given makes her superior to the giver, that makes her superior to God.

    As the West increasingly abandons its Judeo-Christian roots, it’s devolving back towards paganism, including nature worship, goddess worship and child sacrifice.

  63. I follow Lori but what you are saying makes total sense. I work full time and it is hard to keep up with work, the house and on top of that I’m a pastors wife. I had to come to the realization a few years ago that the reason I am working full time is I was not submissive to my husband in the early years of our marriage and to make a long story short, it created a situation where I need to work. It was a hard pill to swallow but I am so thankful my husband has stepped up as a good leader so I can embrace my role and I’m also thankful he stuck with me when I was such a bitch.🙂

  64. I think part of the problem is the framing. A husband does not help the wife. A wife helps the husband. All of the work is the husband’s and the wife helps him with it. As the leader he decides the work assignments and how she can help him and she cheerfully does her part. If she has her own agenda (even if it is cleaning house or taking care of the children) and she does not want to be a helper she should not have gotten married.

  65. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I do respect my husband, but as I live with him everyday, I am aware of both his faults and his strengths. There are no people on this earth who I respect in an unequivocal way – everyone is flawed. If you spend enough time with ANYONE, it’s impossible to keep them on a pedestal.

    Wrong and irrelevant.

    You should give your husband unequivocal respect. Respect does not mean to pedestalize or worship. Respect is a tone of voice and a demeanor in behavior. Respect means to treat a person with the dignity and deference their status entitles them to. To speak to them without an angry edge to your voice. No sarcasm. No eye rolling.

    Nobody is perfect. So what? A general might lose battles. Even so, he remains entitled to full, unequivocal respect from his subordinates until the day he’s demoted. Subordinates do not get to sigh or eye roll when the general speaks. To do so is not only disrespectful to him. It undermines the whole foundation of the military. Just as disrespecting your husband undermine the marriage.

    To respect your husband means to treat him properly, to speak to him in respectful tones, despite any flaws he might have. I’m sure you want your husband to continue treating and speaking to you in a respectful manner despite your many faults and mistakes.

  66. Nisp says:

    A very insightful post Dalrock. Feminist envy of men appears, to me, to be almost homosexual in nature. Women want to be men. Wouldn’t that qualify as a homosexual urge? I wonder if feminism is the root cause for the widespread enthusiasm for homosexuality?

  67. sipcode says:

    Right on Dalrock.
    My take has always been that Lori is really lead by the spirit and Ken is caught up in the arguments of the world – which is actually our church today: blow off scripture as they like. Thanks for confronting this. I do want to point out that through all the curves that Ken throws, Lori stands amazingly on scripture. She defers to her husband even if he is wrong and gives him the glory and LETS him be wrong. This is a great lesson that 1 part per million teach. I challenged her on a topic once and she said that was the way she had it originally written but Ken told her to change it. True, true submission. On one hand we may want Ken to get out of Lori’s way [BTW, never stop correcting him]. On the other hand, she is subtly teaching sensitive-to-the-spirit women how to truly be submissive and respectful to their man.

    This is all good stuff. I’m so glad people are communicating on this. Glory to God on High!

  68. sipcode says:

    Katherine Di Cerbo:
    “To answer your question, the only thing that’s kept me from acting bitchy towards my boss is the fear of getting fired.”

    Therein lies the problem. Therein lies the problem of the church. Therein lies the WHOLE problem of the church. And therein we can find the cure. What is it? Illicit authority vs. Sanctity of Command. Katherine, you’re reserving the right to hold the authority – illicitly ….vs. yielding to the sanctity of command. There is only one thing that fundamentally happened in the Garden; trashing God’s authority. And we trash His authority when we trash any authority [1Pet2+3], even if that trashing is only in the heart – which you imply it is with your boss [which BTW is what God looks at, and usually seems to show to other, nonetheless].

    Why does this trash the church? Because illicit authority leads to trashing Jesus as our authority; we then justify being mad at Him for what he has allowed in our life, we can ignore or change Him [redefining Him and He as the scriptures –which the church has done]. We even reserve the right to reject Him in the final analysis. This lack of respect for authority – the Sanctity of Command — comes first and foremost from women, in the family, and women then model it for the world. Paul emphasizes this by saying that the marriage of men and women is the model of the marriage of Christ and the church. Should the church ever change Christ? Should the church ever disobey Christ? Even when He does not make sense? That is why it is “submit in everything” for wives –there are no qualifiers [Pandora’s Box]. See 1Pet2+3 again.

    Basically, Katherine, you should be asking yourself about your boss: would I be interacting with Christ like this? Would I be having these heart thoughts about Christ like this? Or about your husband, about the cop that just stopped you for speeding, etc.? The healing of the church STARTS with women. They have to release their hold on the illicit authority posed to them by the serpent; an illicit authority that they know was stolen and they accepted as stolen property. This will then model how the church has a proper relationship with Christ, and release men to be men.

    We may be sacrificing on the outside but disobedience on the inside, however “obedience is better than sacrifice.” Respect is not earned. It is simply given. And that is how we find God.

  69. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Nisp: I wonder if feminism is the root cause for the widespread enthusiasm for homosexuality?

    Many homosexuals come off as emasculated. Effeminate, enthusiastic over fashion, hair, make-up, pop culture icons. Cliquish and catty toward both men and women.

    Yes, I can see why women enjoy hanging out with homosexuals and promote their homosexual political agenda. But I imagine it also gets frustrating for women to be surrounded by ever more male grrlfriends, with an ever-decreasing supply of Alpha men to service their desires.

  70. OKRickety says:

    The problem with naive blue-pill betas like Ken is that they think that ‘feminists’ only complain about things after doing a fair and balanced assessment, and then will meet him half way.

    I thought that was the thread-winner until I read this:

    If I (Lori Alexander) ever need to beat up on husbands, all I have to do is ask my married women regular readers to help me. They’re professionals who will get the job done much better than you ever could.

  71. Fiddlesticks says:

    Ken will almost certainly come in for a new round of criticism for saying with a brood to manage, while feeling her husband is not helping her enough

    “Helping” has become a trigger word in equalist circles, not for the reason @Chris Nystrom ably cited (the leader of the family is the one who is helped, not the one who is “helping”), but because equalists think the husband’s domestic role must go beyond “helping.”

    The Left constantly introduces new taboo and trigger words so that well-meaning folks like Ken who are a decade behind the latest lingo can be scolded and shamed into moving their Overton window.

  72. >>once he went on the road other women would start whispering discontentment in her ears

    The Crabs are relentless. I make it a point to gleefully identify all the divorced cat moms we know along with all the lonely, anguished post-wall women who left their stable husband to chase bad boys in their 30’s and 40’s. I also make sure my wife knows about my friends who have been divorced and are now playing the field, banging their way through all those 30 something desperate wayward wives, often a different one every night. My friends assure me they all reek of desperation and are ridiculously easy lays.

    I once heard a woman whispering poison to my wife and I got in her face and yelled: “Get behind me Satan.” I called her a crazy cat lady and told her she was not welcome in our house if she intended to poison our relationship. She never showed up at our house again.

    >>>the source of the misery is in the woman’s own rejection of being a woman, in her own heart, not in anything inherent to the work itself. This is why it only makes wives more miserable when their husbands cheerfully do these very easy tasks. They wanted to make him suffer

    Head Shot! This is why the manosphere favors feminine women. Not because they are doormats but because they are pleasant to be around and do not ooze resentment and envy.

    >>>>>once the discussion turns toward solutions that don’t involve making the husband do more housework, the women lose all interest in the conversation.

    So called “Choreplay” always was, and remains, a power play and yet another tool to subjugate men and identify the manginas. It is a cruel, deceptive Shit Test. Nothing more.

    I remember my own mother very well spending 2-3 hours a day cleaning the bathrooms. Then hour after hour making dinner. All the while complaining bitterly while watching Cable TV Soap Operas in every single room of the house as she slowly puttered around. The complained nonstop how my Dad “never helps around the house.”

    I never knew you could make dinner in 5 minutes or that you really don’t have to “stand over a hot stove all day” to make a 5 course meal.

    When my Dad came home after a 16 hour day he would do yardwork, help with the dishes, clear the table, and finally he would pass out in his chair about 8:00 p.m. My mother would hover over him loudly and constantly complaining bitterly how “he just lays around all the time.” She would spill cold water on him. She would wake him up rudely if he snored. This happened every day all day for 18 years of my life. It STILL happens to my Dad every day. Day after day after day of constant, bitter, envious complaining and whining and directed torment about how hard it is to clean a house and the awful burden of making dinner for your family.

    I have hope that such women will be punished very severely. Unfortunately, the women in Heaven will no doubt organize a “Whisper” campaign about how unfair it is that people like my Dad were given 5 Jewels on their crowns when most women were only given 3. “It’s not fair! God is a sexist, bigoted transgenderphobe…..I am outraged…”

  73. LeeLee says:

    Recently I was thinking about this whole housework problem. I think the root of the problem is partly that women are crossing into male roles (working in the public sphere full time), but that can only really work for them if men are willing to cross into female roles (working in the home).

    Right now it seems like women have completed their transition into male territory, but they’re being held up by the fact that men haven’t completed their transition into female territory. This is why you here about women having a “Second shift” of housework when they get home from their full time jobs.

    A “second shift” sounds exhausting and awful, but I think the point is that men recognize doing housework as the gender-bending that it is, and though the campaign to pressure them into doing it has had a lot of success, there’s still a lot of resistance.

    Women will never be successful living as men until men are “doing their part” by living as women.

  74. sipcode says:

    Gratefulbride
    Nice to hear a pastor’s wife use the word ‘bitch’ — for it is real. That is what drives men to the rooftop and into the wilderness and destroys their bones [Proverbs]. And, BTW so is ‘witch’ [‘rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft’ – See Derek Prince Youtube on witchcraft in the church]. I’m a preacher’s kid and saw my mom literally [you think I’m kidding] kill my father with her covert bitch and witch. While I saw the symptoms growing up I didn’t put all the pieces together until I felt the stranglehold on my own life, a REAL asphyxiation, in the past few years from my wife of 37 years. The power of women is incredible and I hope, as you have gratefulbride, that women see how destructive or life-giving they can be. Choose life.

  75. >watching children are assigned to women simply because that is where a screwup carries little true cost.

    Little costs? This screwup carries a lifetime of costs and misery. Women can kill their children and it is “mental illness” the poor dear. Men do something that makes a woman uncomfortable and it is: “Don’t bend over to pick up the soap. HAHAAHAHAHHA!”

    Women are assigned to primary child care because they are emotionally children and best suited to ease the transition of children into adulthood. Without a man present to counter the feminine, childlike energy you get hood rats and generations of welfare addicted men. As a side effect you get full female superiority, which of course was the goal all along.

  76. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Middle-aged women complaining that they are invisible to men: http://lithub.com/on-the-invisibility-of-middle-aged-women/

    Young women complain about unwanted male attention. Middle-aged women complain about no male attention. There’s no pleasing a woman.

    [D: This is the core of the issue. See Jessica Valenti complaining about how bat it was when she got catcalled, and how much she misses it not that she isn’t.]

  77. Linx says:

    @Katherine
    “Of course I’m still a bitch sometimes,”

    Bitch be cool

  78. Dalrock says:

    @LeeLee

    Right now it seems like women have completed their transition into male territory, but they’re being held up by the fact that men haven’t completed their transition into female territory. This is why you here about women having a “Second shift” of housework when they get home from their full time jobs.

    This is the feminist narrative, that housework is a problem because women are forced to work (just like women are forced to join the military because men won’t fight). The reality is that women complained just as loudly in the dreaded 50s and prior. As I mentioned in the OP, see Sanger’s example that she knew would resonate with her audience, and see Friedan’s seminal book on “The Problem With No Name”.

    Friedan’s book is considered the spark that set off second wave feminism. She was also a founder and the first president of NOW. Right now it seems like feminists are only bitching because they have to work, but they would (and did) bitch just as loudly if they didn’t work. And again, if the problem was that they had too much on their plates, removing the need for them to do housework would at least be something they are interested in. They aren’t. Unless the solution involves making men do the housework, they don’t want to talk about it. The rest is just a smokescreen.

  79. greyghost says:

    To answer your question, the only thing that’s kept me from acting bitchy towards my boss is the fear of getting fired.

    If I could bottle that, we could have red pill extra strength. She is kind and pleasant to her boss for purely wicked selfish reasons. I’ll take it.
    She doesn’t have to be a nice person. That is oppressive and sexist to expect from a woman. But she can behave as a nice person with no oppressive shackles on her nasty self centered motivation. That is as good as it will get from women. That is good enough.
    If she doesn’t have to behave well in any way and receive praise she will not respect you. No woman respects the church or cuckservatives. By law they can not respect their husbands

  80. thedeti says:

    Most wives either (1) don’t understand the crushing responsibilities a husband carries when he works and provides; or (2) understand it, are glad they don’t have to do it, but forget about it when they don’t bear the prime responsibility for making sure the money is there to pay the bills.

    The idiotic Sanger quote illustrates this. Oh how great it must be for a grunt or a swabbie to travel abroad! Oh the places he’s seen!”

    No. Here’s what his life was: Living in constant fear of dying or (worse) going home without one or more of his limbs or eyes. Living on a constant state of heightened alert, with adrenaline coursing through him all the time. Killing other people, sometimes women and children in collateral damage. Seeing his friends blown to bits. Never getting a good night’s sleep. Never knowing if the next moment will be your last.

    here’s what the life of the typical breadwinner man is. When you’d rather be puttering at home fixing the 100 things at your house that need fixing, or just relaxing, you are at a job. You’ve punched a clock or you’re putting time on a time sheet. Your asshole neurotic boss is riding your ass for the second time today and it’s only 10 am. Your clients are unhappy because you didn’t get this or that. There’s an emergency that only you can handle. A subordinate screwed something up and a client is unhappy about that too. There are 30 things that need to get done but you can do only 10 today, unless you stay until midnight, which you probably should do, but you can’t because you need to relax and get some sleep.

    You got called out to handle an emergency and you will be out all night, working on a power line or in a sewer. You work around dangerous items, electricity or machinery. You are sore as hell when you get home from running a jackhammer/semi truck/rail splitter/printing press all day. You can’t hear, your limbs are sore, and you are dog tired, but you know you’ll be here tomorrow doing it all again. You have deadlines to meet, they need to get done by the deadline, because if its’ not done by the deadline heads will roll.

    And both sets of men have this thought every minute of every day:

    I have GOT to perform. If I don’t perform, if i’m unable to perform, or if I’m perceived as unable to perform, if others see me as a broken drafthorse, if I cannot pull the weight I used to pull, I’ll get fired or downsized. I’ll lose this job, I can’t make more money elsewhere, we’ll end up in the poorhouse, my wife will leave, and I’ll never see my kids again. I’ll have no respect from other men, no love from my wife, and no love or respect from my kids. I will lose EVERYTHING if I can’t or don’t get it done here.

    These working men are under constant, relentless pressure to perform. It is part of our lives.

    Women often forget this, or simply don’t care about it. It is because women have the option to perform. I hear often of women who don’t want to work full time. Know how they solve it? Get married. They then exercise their option not to perform. They leave the work force. They get part time work. They work full time but do not produce at nearly the levels that men do. They have that option.

    Men’s options? Work, or starve. Produce, or die. Earn, or be tossed onto the ash heap.

  81. Avraham rosenblum says:

    I really admire Katherine for being upfront and honest about why she would be nice to her boss. That takes more guts than I have to admit such a thing–ever–and especially in a public forum.

  82. Fiddlesticks says:

    Here’s a fun article from 1949 with the female author gently warning equalist readers to be careful what they wish for when it comes to a dual income. She notes that wives alone have reserved the right to withdraw partially or fully from the workforce at the time and reasoning of their choosing, and they had better not give that up.

    This mentality is still present today. The main difference is that in 1949, the tacit assumption was that hubby would be the backstop. Now, our pundits daydream about Gov facilitating 2-year maternity leaves, job sharing, aggressive wage policing, and infinitely flexible schedules to create their all-of-the-$ none-of-the-obligation workers’ paradise.

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19490829&id=ewMiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KE4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=4405,4900656&hl=en

  83. Thanks.🙂 As a preachers kid you know the pressure of being a pastor and then on top of that my husband is the main provider for our family. I am so thankful that five years ago he put his foot down and said we are following our Biblical roles to a tee. It was hard at first and as a human you struggle but I love and respect him more all the time. Furthermore, I love being a woman and all that comes with that. It has allowed me to embrace my femininity and “girlyness” and I have never been happier.🙂

  84. Alan Breck says:

    “You got called out to handle an emergency and you will be out all night, working on a power line or in a sewer. You work around dangerous items, electricity or machinery. You are sore as hell when you get home from running a jackhammer/semi truck/rail splitter/printing press all day. You can’t hear, your limbs are sore, and you are dog tired, but you know you’ll be here tomorrow doing it all again. You have deadlines to meet, they need to get done by the deadline, because if its’ not done by the deadline heads will roll.”

    And then your wife whines that you’re never home, never help around the house, and don’t help with the kids enough. She sure does love the paycheck and bragging rights that come with your high-powered job though.

  85. feeriker says:

    in many areas of the United States, it is very, very difficult to support a house on one income

    Difficult, but by no means impossible. It depends on what your priorities in life are and what you’re willing to forego in order to raise a stable family. I managed to do it for ten years, raising a family of four while on active duty in the military on a mid-grade enlisted man’s salary while living in one of the top three most expensive regions of the U.S., as well as for another five years after leaving active duty when I took what was effectively a pay cut.

    The key? Not keeping up with the Jomeses. Not having the newest, hottest car(s). Not going out to eat three-plus nights per week. Not buying the kids roomsful of the latest toys. Not buying your dream house, but one you can reasonably afford in a downscale, but safe neighborhood full of working people in the same boat you are. Carefully pinching pennies to get the most out of what money God has blessed you with. Showing your kids that quality time with them in their fogmative years so that you can instill in the values only a parent can is far more important than working 48-60-hour weeks for people who don’t even know you exist while making your life miserable so that you can “live the American dream [sic],” which is really a nightmare reaped by gullible fools who buy into advertising hype.

    No, it’s absolutely possible to raise a family on one income while providing everything they need (as opposed to what they might WANT) no matter where you might live. Whenever I hear the “you can’t support a family on one income” line, especuially from the mouths of WOMEN, which is where it usually emanates from, it is ALWAYS Hamsterese for “I want it all, and dammit, I’m gonna get it at all costs! F*** my husband, f*** my kids, f*** everyone who gets in my way! I deserve it, and dammit I’m gonna get it!”

  86. feeriker says:

    Aaargh, sorry for the typos on my last. I HATE SmartPhone keypads!

  87. feeriker says:

    To respect your husband means to treat him properly, to speak to him in respectful tones, despite any flaws he might have. I’m sure you want your husband to continue treating and speaking to you in a respectful manner despite your many faults and mistakes.

    The easiest way to get this point across is to simply flip the sexes. Imagine if husbands started ignoring their wives, or treating them with a contempt normally reserved for cheap street whores good only for pumping and dumping, because they are “flawed” as helpmeets and thus unworthy of a husband’s love.

    Actually, given that that’s a PUA/ueber-alpha move that seems to stimulate the female hindbrain, it might not be a bad strategy…

  88. Read this article:
    https://newrepublic.com/article/134651/bros-homes

    How different is this take on the presumptive “sexism” of men not having the incentive to settle down and get married in favor of living a life of experience from what any Christian pastor has preached in a “for the guys” sermon?

    The message dovetails with Mark Driscoll’s “men drive steadier with a weighted load” nonsense, but it also highlights the fact that it is “Christian” men who are the best, unwitting advocates of the Feminine Imperative within the church.

  89. kappasweet says:

    I am a woman and I am married and there is massive consternation in my home about the housework. The problem probably started several years ago during our 3rd move. Before that I kept an immaculate home, we could take “drop by” company anytime, nothing was ever dirty and most messes were cleared and reorganized by the next day. Laundry was a daily short chore so I didn’t have to put aside a laundry day. The entire process took maybe an hour a day if that, so I see what you guys mean when you say that efficiency is important. We moved, I was pregnant so when we got to our next destination I immediately went into “nesting” mode. My husband had a massive fit, forbidding me from touching things, unpacking, or getting too comfy in our new home. He thought that I should be spending all my time looking for a job in our new city, so I looked, had the baby (I was called a selfish bitch while in labor) came home, tried to care for the baby while I looked for a job. I found one that did not pay enough for my husband’s taste, so he continued to behave like a trainwreck. By this time I was pretty depressed and the house was always a mess. If he would see me trying to get things in order, he would get angry. Once I cleaned out and disinfected the bathroom so that his father could stay with us a while, and he got so angry I had to stay in a hotel room for 2 days. He thought I was worthless because I didn’t make enough money. To this day he will tell you the same, so don’t think I am making this up. I am well into the 6 figures, and he feels like I owe him something for the year or so I didn’t work in our 10 year marriage.

    Now, we moved again. In the new house, he went back into bitch mode. He forbid me from using the dishwasher, complains about the steam mop, complains about my broom, complains about my choice of cleaning solutions and supplies, and is just generally a miserable human being to live with. Criticizes my every move with respect to the housework. If he sees me using a paper towel, he will insist that I use some other towel he wants me to use instead. Gets his girly panties in a bunch because his late grandma did something some other way and I wasn’t as awesome as her. Hand wash the dishes in bleach! Pour out a whole bottle of ammonia on the kitchen floor and swish it around with a deck mop so you know it’s “clean.” Gets angry if I cook for my kids (they now live on takeout, I live on frozen foods, he cooks himself all meat dishes and calls it Atkins diet.) Gets angry if I want him to do some “manly” chore like hook up some AV equipment or power wash the patio. Otherwise, spends all his time on LinkedIn and Facebook. Men aren’t just a walk in the park and women are irrational crazy people. Men are irrational too, they have bought into the fact that there is no appropriate division of labor and want a woman that makes money. Amongst his circle of friends, the one with the highest earning wife “wins.” The one with a stay at home wife, beautifully cared for children, and lives in a duplex is a loser whose wife is dragging him down, in an unfair situation because his wife is worthless. I would have been happy to stay home and not get back out there after we moved when I was pregnant, but he insisted and is punishing me for this employment lapse TO THIS DAY.

    Now, a SAHM who complains about the housework is going through something else. In most of those situations her emotional needs are just not being met. She is not getting enough of something she needs from her husband to sustain her. If you scratch the surface of those situations you’ll find something screwed up big time. Like he cheated on her while she was pregnant and she forgave him because that’s what her religious upbringing told her she ought to do. Or he refuses to hold up the family, such as by having family pictures made, having family traditions, or spending holidays together. Or he just won’t have sex with her. Or something.

  90. Ken says:

    Good post Dalrock,

    I think it is important to recognize that Lori’s ministry and the purpose of your blog, or some in this select group, may align in many ways, but are not the same purposes. Our ministry is the building up of the body of Christ by helping families and marriages, and Lori’s specific focus on “teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” (Titus 2:3-5).

    It is incorrect to postulate that “Lori’s focus was on the toxicity of feminist resentment” in that viral post That may be a strong focus you and your group have, but Lori’s post and ministry was not about this, although it may have touched on it. She has never made it a goal to try and root out feminism or feminism in the church, but God may at times use what she is teaching the younger women for a broader purpose to expose the lies of feminism.

    Trust me, we saw the lie play out first hand in our marriage for 20 years; the insatiable need to get something from the husband, and no matter how he tries to fulfill it day after day, it will never be enough to satisfy the whispers in the ear. Lori should have a post coming out soon addressing this issue, but that was not the subject of the viral post. It is too hard to defend each post without having to try to defend all of one’s views around a particular post. It is best to let each post speak for itself and try to stop those who wish to see their agenda supported or attacked when the post may have done neither. I know it is hard for many not see to their agenda or the opposing parties agenda in a post, even as it never references the specific agenda.

  91. I find it telling that several of the people here twisted my words around simply because I’m a woman and they wanted to rail against me despite the fact that I expressed agreement with the post and even regret that I got irritated with my husband over something stupid.

    I’m sorry kappasweet about your situation. I have noticed this too – stay at home moms being regarded as leaches in many social settings. Yes, men and women are both flawed, sometimes deeply so.

  92. Linx says:

    @ Katharine
    “I find it telling that several of the people here twisted my words around simply because I’m a woman and they wanted to rail against me despite the fact that I expressed agreement with the post and even regret that I got irritated with my husband over something stupid.”

    Simply because you are a woman? Lot of word twisting needed to come to that conclusion.

  93. Ken says:

    I didn’t have time to read the comments today, but for some reason one caught my eye saying that “Lori has the Spirit and Ken somehow does not” or some such spiritual gobbledygook.🙂. Really, because I don’t buy fully into your agenda I somehow do not have the Spirit like Lori and this commenter?

    My Spirit inside tells me that for Lori to achieve the purpose of her ministry she must not be trying to take the Beast head on, but instead be used of the Spirit to train those Christian women who have an ear to hear. I make no apology for doing my best to help her stay on task with her stated mission, and trying to keep the far left of Christian antagonistic feminists, (if I can link them together) and the right wing Manosphere away from influencing this mission. I am not saying everyone here is right wing, but some comments and thoughts simply is detrimental to Lori’s purpose, turning off potential Christian readers instead of helping them in their journey to godliness.

    Please evaluate if the criticism is not a lament that we (or Ken) have not jumped fully on your bandwagon which is not our bandwagon. We can stand out on the corner as the prophets of old and prophesy, winning few, but doing God’s work or condemnation of a society, or we can get into the trenches of the church and develop an effective message that can reach the true Believers and influence their walk with Jesus. One is a call to repentance, which is sorely needed for today’s church, and the other IS doing the ministry of the church.

  94. Dave says:

    …Now, a SAHM who complains about the housework is going through something else. In most of those situations her emotional needs are just not being met. She is not getting enough of something she needs from her husband to sustain her…..

    In other words, it’s her husband’s fault that she is resentful of doing household chores. I was following you much of the time, but then you ended it badly.
    Look, these women are adults. Last I checked, adults don’t sulk; they talk about what bothered them. If her emotional needs are not being met then she needs to let her husband know, and a solution found. Sulking and being resentful won’t help her, talk less of it helping her marriage.

  95. Dave says:

    I find it telling that several of the people here twisted my words around simply because I’m a woman……

    Dive for cover, guys! One of them is in the house!
    Ma’am, this website is unapologetically masculine leaning. If you expect anyone to cuddle you and stroke your ego, maybe you might want to visit the Jezebel site down the road?

  96. JDG says:

    Katharine – The problem isn’t that you were irritated with your husband. The problem is that you (and maybe him as well) don’t recognize that he is the God appointed authority in your home. If you can’t see this then you won’t understand much of what is posted here.

  97. Cane Caldo says:

    @Katharine

    I find it telling that several of the people here twisted my words around simply because I’m a woman and they wanted to rail against me despite the fact that I expressed agreement with the post and even regret that I got irritated with my husband over something stupid.

    Stop bitching about your husband to strangers under the phony cover of “expressing regrets and agreements”. This is not the place for secret acts of passive-aggressive character assassination.

    The tag-team effort (whether planned or not) by Katharine and Kappa(sour) is so tired and lame. Does anyone even believe Kappa(sour)’s story? They shouldn’t.

    @The Real Peterman

    Actually, the dishwasher was invented by a woman

    Thank you. This answers an age old riddle which has troubled me since my youth: Why must one have to wash the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher if one wants dishes actually clean?

  98. Looking Glass says:

    @Rollo:

    That New Republic piece is dripping with envy. The “Tony” has made the fundamentally correct decision for a 30-year old that makes good money in this society. But the thought of not spending the money on a Woman (specifically her, since she is a local writer and likely unmarried) cuts her very, very deep.

    It’s always fascinating how our understanding of Women allows you to figure out exactly how they’re going to respond. Almost as if assumptions & standard responses matter.

  99. Looking Glass says:

    @Cane:

    I’ve heard a lot of sob-stories from Women over the years. I also can use my eyes and see that married couples tend to be very similar in a lot of regards. This is part of the reason Wives project so much onto their Husbands: it’s rationalizing away their actions.

  100. Fiddlesticks says:

    @kappasweet
    where is the kind of behavior that you describe encouraged in mainstream culture? Where are the Christian sermons or articles directing husbands to throw a “godly tantrum” or withhold affection if their wives aren’t earning enough?

    You somehow agreed to commit for life to a grifter type (judging by his birds-of-a-feather cronies egging him on) who doesn’t take his providership role seriously, but you didn’t do so because church, school or culture taught you to admire that type of man.

  101. Ken says:

    Again Dalrock, I get what you are saying and agree with much of it, but I don’t accept the idea that I must be “unreal” in what I write, out of fear it may play to a woman’s whispers.

    You write:
    “In the discussion… (Ken’s) general thrust in both the post and in the discussion is for the husband to do more of whatever work his wife identifies as the source of her resentment.”

    If that is the thrust you see… I don;t see it, nor was it ever intended, and I doubt most of the readers took it that way.

    “What Ken has misunderstood is the true source of the resentment.” No that is not misunderstood, but the fact remains that some men should be helping more around the home.

    Can these two truths not sit side by side, that there are some husbands who should be helping more, and there are many wives who no matter what you do for them, until they uproot the lie of the garden in their desire to control their man they can never be happy with the relationship as it will always carry the Serpent’s whispers “it is never enough” and in turn “he doesn’t really love me.”

    Can we not work on both issues, without fearing this gives license to women to have the excuse they need to stay in their mindset, especially when the prescription remains the same: “Win him without a Word.” That was general thrust, that it makes little difference to the outcome of what a wife is to do in such situation if she is right or wrong on the issue of housework. The cure is the same if one is to be obedient to God’s Word. How do I make that point without being real on the matter?

    The bottom line is we don’t have to uproot the lie of the garden to help move couples forward. It is most often after the wife finds Lori’s blog and learns to walk in simple obedience to God’s commands that the Spirit opens up her eyes to see the root cause of the lies she has been telling herself. Lori did not understand the depth of the Serpent’s Whispers until she was very far along in her walk of obedience to the Lord. Sure it dramatically changed things when she could finally see the root causes of her unhappiness with her husband, but my ministry in her life was to challenge her to obedience to the Lord, after showing obedience in my own life, and let Him expose the root lies in his timing.

  102. craig says:

    Kappasweet, your husband could be a real jerk. He certainly sounds tightly-wound. But I wonder if there’s another side you aren’t telling. His behavior as you are describing it is not typical, absent other factors at work. (The cleaning-products thing sounds like OCD.)

    What stands out immediately are two things: he doesn’t like for you to cook, and he judges you on the basis of income. Those are desires expressed by almost no man, ever.

    In general, men don’t think too much about their wives’ income; provision is seen as the domain of the male, and they’re OK with that. The only reason I can think of why any man would focus on it, is if household expenses were perpetually exceeding income. But in that case, it’s not the income that is the real problem, it’s the expenses. The fact that he spends a lot of time on LinkedIn suggests a preoccupation with finding more income and ‘keeping up appearances’. (Pure speculation here; if it doesn’t apply to you, my apologies in advance) If you moved somewhere you could not afford on one income, then the two of you had a duty to prevent that while you were looking. It’s not fair to exercise female prerogative to be a SAHM after you’ve just signed a mortgage that says you can’t. Your only long-term solution is for you both to admit overreach: downsize and jointly cut expenses.

    The real puzzler is him not wanting you to cook. Most men desire two basic things in marriage, regular sex and home-cooked meals. The ‘homier’ the better. (More speculation) I wonder if he doesn’t associate your cooking with also trying to modify his eating habits toward your idea of what he should be eating — less meat, fewer calories, whatever. He may perceive he is not getting enough of something he needs from you to sustain him (literally as well as figuratively). And if food becomes a control issue, the result can be a level of emotional alienation similar to that which comes from withholding sex from a spouse.

    Only you know if these ideas bear any resemblance to your own situation. I’m just throwing them out there in case you see something relevant.

  103. Feminist Hater says:

    Kappasweet sounds more like a troll than some real life women with a stingy and bitchy husband.

    It’s as if the world is just full of men who want nothing more than for their wives to go work outside the home. Why are feminists complaining at all, Kappasweet has the exact husband they want, one that doesn’t want a women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Damn Kappa, you have it made, griiil1!

  104. Feminist Hater says:

    In my view, being bitchy is a slip in upholding solid character. I can FEEL bitchy and not behave bitchy because it’s not who I want to be, to my husband or to anybody else.

    A bitch is a women, in the terms of a marriage obviously, who lacks the ability to respect, love and honour her husband. One who derides, mocks and incessantly nags him on every small and minute detail. It isn’t a feeling, it is an indirect attack on his authority in the home by pulling him down and destroying his support and self respect.

    All woman have the potential to be a bitch, it is something that each woman must learn to control lest it overpower her and turn her into a nagging cuntbag. One who can never let anything go, who must always control every situation, even if she isn’t the one who has to put in the work. She becomes a nagging supervisor, with her beady eyes laser focusing on any small flaw, no matter the consequences.

    That is a bitch. Feelings have nothing to do with it. Control and a demure attitude will go a long way in subduing this feral animal.

  105. Annie says:

    It’s not about feminist entitlement or envy of men; it is rather to do with the fact that there are only 24 hours in a day, and women, just like men, get exhausted and overwhelmed.

    A woman who also works full-time does not have enough time to cook, wash the dishes, clean around the house, do laundry, fold/iron clothes, go shopping for food, dust, etc… There simply isn’t enough time in a day. As well, considering that the man also needs to live in a clean house, he needs to eat and he needs clean clothes, then he should definitely also pitch in. Unless he agrees for his wife to stay at home, and then it’s a whole different discussion.

    I’d say that men behaving like it’s a woman’s duty to do all of the above is a privilege, it shows their entitlement and how they perceive their wife as also being their servant.

  106. theasdgamer says:

    Ken Alexander is trying to become a woman. Hence, he’s a third-rate woman and a second-rate man. I feel sorry for Lori Alexander.

  107. Feminist Hater says:

    Annie is the exact example of the bitch I’m talking about. No matter that she now has a dishwasher, clothes washer, vacuum cleaner and a plethora of other home cleaning apparatuses to help her, all created by men. It is never enough, now men must ‘pitch in’ and do their chores and shit or else he is a slave owning patriarch or mean abuser or whatever feminists choose to label men today. You know Annie, fuck you, fuck marriage and fuck feminist cunts.

  108. Annie says:

    Feminist hater, let me ask you the following questions:

    1. Do you soil your own clothes?
    2. Do you dirty your own plates?
    3. Do you want nutritious food to eat?
    4. Do you leave dirt/a mess around the house?
    5. Are you able bodied?
    6. Do you expect your wife to work full-time and bring an income?
    7. Did you invent those appliances yourself? If not, it’s absolutely irrelevant who did invent them, it does not give you the right to expect women to pick your mess.

    If you answered “yes” to 1-6 and “no” to 7, then there is absolutely no reason for you not to pick up after yourself. You have absolutely no right to demand that a woman does all those things, even though she works outside the home just as much as you do.

    Leaving feminism on the side, there simply aren’t enough hours in a day for a woman to do it all by herself.

  109. Feminist Hater says:

    I don’t demand that a woman do anything for me. I am not married. Your train of thought could be extended in that a woman has no right to demand a man pay for her. Nor demand that men sacrifice themselves for women. Nor demand that men fix things for them. Yet that is all they do.

    Your constant moaning won’t change a thing. Men are better suited to doing things other than house work, and thus if a man is married, he needs to focus elsewhere if he is to maximize is earning potential. The constant bickering over housework just leads to men not producing that marriage premium.

    There are more than enough hours in a day to clean up the house. Learn to manage your day better, bitch, stop moaning on the interwebs and clean some clothes or scrub the fall. Fuck… ! Just stop!

  110. Looking Glass says:

    The funny thing about the Annie-types is they actually are admitting they’ve failed at being Women. Or competent humans.

    What she describes could all be done with about 30 minutes of work per day, and about 2 hours on the weekend. It’s called basic pre-planning. And you still have a bunch of time to spend doing other things!

  111. Annie says:

    Well, I am married, and this is how my schedule looks like. I wake up at 6 to go to the gym and to get to work by 9 and I get home from work at around 7pm. I stop by the store to pick up random stuff to get dinner started, and we finish eating by 9. After that, I take a shower and I spend some time with my husband before we both head off to bed at 11. This is what my schedule looks like Monday-Friday. The weekends are spend visiting our families, spending time with our friends or we go away for a weekend just the 2 of us. My husband has the same schedule as I do.

    Where exactly do you see time for me to take care of the house all by myself? I tried it for the first year of our marriage and I was just plain exhausted. Therefore, I asked my husband to help, to which he complied and now we both have some breathing room.

    A marriage is all about cooperation and helping the other person; I needed help, as do other married women.

    It has absolutely nothing to do feminism, with envying men or other BS that was written here.

  112. Annie says:

    It also irks me how entitled you lot are, behaving like it’s no big deal to keep a house and that it can be done with no problems. Here’s an idea–do it then yourself

  113. Cane Caldo says:

    Annie said:

    it does not give you the right to expect women to pick your mess.

    Not women. Wives. Wives should be picking up the mess of a home. That’s a wife’s job. It’s in the Bible and everything.

    there simply aren’t enough hours in a day for a woman to do it all by herself.

    That’s why we give them children.

    These two things are the reasons men bother with women at all: To have a helper–yes, a kind of servant–and because we like to make them pregnant. It is why women were created in the first place. The distinguishing characteristic of a woman is a emptiness for her husband in her center. Know your role.

  114. Maybe you could get up a little earlier? Maybe not every night you spend time with your husband between 9 and 11? Maybe you don’t go to the gym EVERYDAY?

  115. Feminist Hater says:

    I don’t know Annie, you have plenty of time to stop visiting family and clean your house. Priorities dear, fuck me. You are a sniveling cunt.

    It also irks me how entitled you lot are, behaving like it’s no big deal to keep a house and that it can be done with no problems. Here’s an idea–do it then yourself.

    Of course it irks you. Here’s an idea, shut up about it. There’s a good girl!

    Men do it all the time when they’re single. They don’t need women to do it for them, however, when they get married they are required to work themselves silly providing for wives and children and society. So.. as you can see, not getting married is better for men. You are just showing your bitchy side Annie and it won’t get you nowhere.

    Housework is not manly, it does not increase his protection or providing potential and is thus simply wasted time for a man. When single he has to do it but if a man is to get married and have some benefit for having done so, it is the women who should do it all from then on.

  116. Dalrock, I have posted some comments but they didn’t appear. Check your spam box. Thanks.

    [D: Welcome Ken. I found several in moderation and let them through. Your comments should go through automatically from here on. I did check the spam bin but don’t seen anything there from you, so I’m guessing it was just the pending comments.]

  117. Cane Caldo says:

    @gratefulbride

    Don’t fall for the routine. She doesn’t want answers. Annie’s schedule doesn’t include ANY housework; even though she has arranged both her own and her husband’s. Nor did she mention any children. How much mess could there be? Maybe she’s a hoarder. She’s certainly bitching about nothing. She envies men and so takes it out on her poor husband. That’s it.

  118. Annie says:

    @gratefulbride

    I am so grateful for a husband who doesn’t believe it’s demeaning and that it makes him less of a man to take the dishes out of the dishwasher, to hang the laundry to dry or to sweep the kitchen floor. We finish everything together in like 30 minutes, and then we are both free to do spend time together, watch a movie, etc…

    I work just as much as he does, my work is just as demanding as his is and I didn’t marry to be someone’s mother; but I married another adult who is able to pick up after himself. I didn’t stop being a person after marriage, I also count and I can’t do everything on my own without quickly feeling exhausted (I tried to, but I couldn’t; although I make dinner at least 5 times a week, and do part of the cleaning).

    I don’t think I am oppressing my husband by expecting him to put his dishes in the dishwasher or by hanging the clothes out to dry or by sweeping the floor.

    Also–if I were to ask my husband whether he prefers spending time with his wife vs doing the dishes, he’d pick doing the dishes. You know, healthy marriage and all that

  119. Annie says:

    Well, we don’t have kids at the moment, which is why I didn’t mention them. How much mess could there be?

    Kitchen- the floor needs to be swept and mopped at least 3 times week, the stove needs to cleaned once a week; the countertops need to cleaned multiple times a day, plenty of dishes to do daily (washed and put away)

    Garbage needs to be taken out daily

    Grocery shopping at least once every couple of days

    Bathroom–needs to be cleaned at least once a week, and the toilet every other day

    Laundry–at least a load per 2 days (sorted, washed, folded and put away)

    Bedrooms-need to cleaned once a week

    Whole house needs to be swept, mopped and dusted at least once a week

    Therefore, there is plenty of stuff to do even for 2 people.

  120. Splashman says:

    Awesome post — thanks, Dalrock.

  121. Dalrock says:

    Kappasweet takes trolling to a new level, and we should at least appreciate the skill involved.

    The first 80% of her comment was focused on explaining how entirely untypical her own situation is, with the unspoken implication that we are unfairly lumping innocent women like her in with the other 99% of complaining wives.

    The final 20% of her comment was spent explaining that the other 99% of complaining wives shouldn’t be called out because in those cases it was the husband as well.

  122. Feminist Hater says:

    Who the heck does dishes at your house three times a day when you both work?! Annie, stop, just stop! Go complain at some women’s blog or something.

  123. Feminist Hater says:

    Meh, I meant cleaning counter tops. Same problem though. Neither of you are home during the day so why all this cleaning of counter tops, floors and dishes? Sounds like Annie is a OCD sufferer and cannot deal with a little bit of dust here and there.

    Most of the stuff is small minded shit that no one else really thinks about. Taking out the garbage, really?!

    Annie, do one of those chores a day, such as cleaning the bathroom on Tuesday and watch your house chores actually get done. Stop complaining, stop moaning, stop bitching at random men on the interwebs and go make your husband a mighty big sandwich with all the trimmings! Do it, now!

  124. Annie says:

    LOL It just shows how unfamiliar you are with housework and it might explain why you don’t see it as such a big deal.

    I’m no OCD sufferer, but we both eat breakfast and dinner at home. Breakfast consists of more than cereal or yogurt, and a stove and/or a blender are involved for breakfast, which translates into messy countertops. As well, I cook dinner for scratch every day, which again, messy countertops and lots of dirty dishes.

    I am also not moaning or complaining; I have no reason to as my husband helps. I just thought (erroneously) that a woman needing help with housework is not at all about envying men (lol)

  125. Looking Glass says:

    @Dalrock:

    “Kappasweet” did produce a decently written troll. It’s rare that they do. Though the true tells is that apparently her Husband is a Woman. If the story is even slightly real, the Man must be so much a flaming homosexual that multi-colored flames shout out the front door.

    Granted, I got suspicious with the “kappa”. I was expecting either a PogChamp or a BibleThump to follow.

    As for Annie, apparently both Husband & Wife have office-type jobs and they can’t hire a maid? This “life” gets stupider each time through. (Let’s ignore why she needs a job in the first place.)

  126. PuffyJacket says:

    Also–if I were to ask my husband whether he prefers spending time with his wife vs doing the dishes, he’d pick doing the dishes.

    Gee, I wonder why. The lack of introspection here is cringe-worthy.

  127. Novaseeker says:

    If you both work outside the home, may as well hire a cleaning service. It’s well worth the money, and saves lots of time for much of the more time-consuming cleaning. As for messing the kitchen morning and evening, maybe rearrange that so that it’s evening only? Without children, it’s pretty easy to have healthy breakfasts for adults without messing the kitchen.

  128. Feminist Hater says:

    Annie, no one cares. If you can’t keep a house of two clean and tidy with minimal effort, the problem lies with you, not your husband or him not doing enough housework.

    Stop.

  129. JDG says:

    Cane Caldo says:
    June 27, 2016 at 3:04 pm
    These two things are the reasons men bother with women at all: To have a helper–yes, a kind of servant–and because we like to make them pregnant. It is why women were created in the first place. The distinguishing characteristic of a woman is a emptiness for her husband in her center. Know your role.

    Exactly!

    8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels – 1 Cor 11

  130. PuffyJacket says:

    It would also appear Annie is deeply unpracticed in the art of checking her own bitchiness. This, as much as anything, explains the lack of affection in her marriage.

  131. Dalrock says:

    Welcome Ken

    In the discussion… (Ken’s) general thrust in both the post and in the discussion is for the husband to do more of whatever work his wife identifies as the source of her resentment.

    If that is the thrust you see… I don’t see it, nor was it ever intended, and I doubt most of the readers took it that way.

    You make repeated references to husbands sinning by not doing the amount of housework their wife expects, and only added the possibility that it might not always be a sin after I pointed this out. It was literally an afterthought. Plus, the title of the post is “Going Viral: The Virus of Unmet Expectations”. In the title and throughout the post you frame this as an issue not of mis set expectations (from the wife), but unmet expectations (by the husband). It baffles me that you deny this is what you are writing. I’m at a loss as to how else to point it out to you. I believe Cane tried as well on the comments.

    What Ken has misunderstood is the true source of the resentment.

    No that is not misunderstood, but the fact remains that some men should be helping more around the home.

    Can these two truths not sit side by side, that there are some husbands who should be helping more, and there are many wives who no matter what you do for them, until they uproot the lie of the garden in their desire to control their man they can never be happy with the relationship as it will always carry the Serpent’s whispers “it is never enough” and in turn “he doesn’t really love me.”

    1) You said outright that this isn’t about feminism for you, as I quoted in the OP:

    I am also not referencing the source of the feminist resentment, but the resentment felt by a wife who feels frazzled with a home, with a brood to manage, while feeling her husband is not helping her enough.

    2) Your post was in response to rabid feminists harping about Lori’s post. The Daily Mail article was all about how your wife was taking women back to the 50s, denying us the enlightenment of the 60s and 70s. Your reply was not to point out the rabid feminists, but to ignore (and later deny) the feminist angst driving all of this, and switch the topic to husbands sinning because they aren’t doing housework. Your only criticism of the feminists was that they were falsely accusing Lori of being antifeminist:

    Lori never said that a husband should not help his wife around the home, nor does she believe this, yet this angry brood read it into her words.

    Denying feminism and changing the subject to the brutes who are to blame isn’t even handedness. It is capitulation to the feminist shrieking.

  132. mrteebs says:

    I read Lori’s original post and Ken’s supplemental post a few days ago, courtesy of Cane Caldo. Cane had replied to a female would-be commenter that he did not allow women commenters and suggested she perhaps go to Lori’s site if she was looking for blogs on the topic by women for women. I clicked Cane’s link and Lori’s post was on page 1 – the one we are now discussing. I was going to suggest Lori’s post as future discussion content to Dalrock, but he self-discovered it in the mean time.

    But my perception of Ken’s post was identical to Dalrock’s. Regardless of what Ken intended, what he actually managed to convey is what Dalrock has summarized. I applauded Lori’s post. I cringed at Ken’s.

  133. Sam says:

    I happened upon a discussion earlier today of mothers expressing their sadness at feeling like single moms though they are married. A couple of them, the original poster especially, was ready to throw in the towel. These women feel like they are living as single mothers right now because their husbands contribute so little financially and in other ways. The original poster said that if divorced the father would at least spend every other weekend with the kid which is more than he does now.

    I bring this up because I see a few here who are outspoken about staying single (feminist hater, et. al.), so where does this leave the human race? Women divorcing man-children because they would rather play video games than be a father and provider, and men who avoid those responsibilities by remaining single.

    If you believe that God made the man head, will the man not have more to answer for in the hereafter?

    The red pill seems as much a me-centered philosophy of selfishness as feminism.

  134. JDG says:

    Annie – I don’t think I am oppressing my husband by expecting him to put his dishes in the dishwasher or by hanging the clothes out to dry or by sweeping the floor.

    The problem isn’t whether or not you are oppressing him, the problem is that you don’t know your place as his helpmate. He is the God given authority in his home, not you, not both of you. You have no business placing expectations on the authority in your home.

    Also–if I were to ask my husband whether he prefers spending time with his wife vs doing the dishes, he’d pick doing the dishes.

    This actually says a lot, but not what you think.

  135. JDG says:

    mrteebs says:
    June 27, 2016 at 4:38 pm

    But my perception of Ken’s post was identical to Dalrock’s.

    Same here!

  136. PM says:

    My wife and I both do housework. We have 3 kids under 5 years old so my help is needed. The way I see it, refusing to help your wife when she clearly needs it is a sin. It would be just as sinful for her to refuse to help support the family if for some reason I couldn’t do it. The Bible doesn’t say that wives do all of the housework. The Virtuous woman had a maidservant and earned money. When the budget allows, we will hire someone to help with cleaning. If she still wants me to do housework after that then we can start talking about envy of men. However a husband should make a good faith effort to solve the practical problems before assuming that his wife wanting help is a sin.

  137. Daily Llama says:

    “What causes all of the consternation about housework?”

    I’ll tell you, IT SUCKS! In every country on the planet that has cheap labor, everyone hires maids and cooks and even drivers. In these so called “third world countries” even the domestic help hire domestic help! Its too expensive for the middle class to do that in many developed countries so in that case we should all become minimalists to lighten our load (and be kind to the environment as well). All this materialism just makes us depressed and Big Pharma rich.

    Downsize and you won’t have to clean so much, people.

  138. Feminist Hater says:

    I bring this up because I see a few here who are outspoken about staying single (feminist hater, et. al.), so where does this leave the human race? Women divorcing man-children because they would rather play video games than be a father and provider, and men who avoid those responsibilities by remaining single.

    Take it up with society. Take it up with the Church, the feminists and lawmakers who have made the task of marriage almost impossible for a Christian man. I’m way too far gone to care about what happens to society. There are consequences for actions and the wages for feminism are the death of marriage; and any Pastor or man who thinks otherwise is a fool.

    I cannot save the world, I cannot turn feminists from their wicked ways and I do not want to anymore, I’m sick of it, all of it. This is their bed, they can sleep in it.

    There is a problem that no one seems to be able to bring up except for outspoken people like myself. Men do and women are. That is the way of the world. A man must do to prove he is masculine and a women must give birth to prove she is feminine. When feminism came along and said women should do manly things as well, what they have in fact done is make those things irrelevant for men to continue to do, for they no longer separate the masculine from the feminine. A working man had two benefits. One was making the man productive to himself and society and two was giving him a purpose that earned him respect that upheld his masculinity. By destroying that, feminists have destroyed society and it is far too gone to turn around at this point.

    Thus, further into feminists madness we must go.

  139. Jim says:

    Feminist Hater says:
    June 27, 2016 at 5:34 pm

    There you go making sense again FH. Don’t you know you’re supposed to take it up the ass no matter how oppressive it gets for husbands.fathers?

    Too many of these people are too busy mocking guys who don’t want to get married as “children playing video games” (yeah as if these fuckheads had any clue what I actually do with my own time) to pay attention to the real problem. The “Peter Pans” some of these people ridicule don’t or won’t see that they’re attacking only a symptom instead of the cause.

  140. JDG says:

    However a husband should make a good faith effort to solve the practical problems before assuming that his wife wanting help is a sin.

    Caving to the misguided whim of a wife under the influence of a feminist culture is NOT a good faith effort to solve practical problems. Instead it is avoiding having to face the actual underlying problem which is causing the “practical” problems.

    For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. 1 Sam 15:23

  141. Fiddlesticks says:

    @Sam
    These women feel like they are living as single mothers right now because their husbands contribute so little financially and in other ways.

    Many women have not yet adapted to making a realistic self-assessment in the current year as to why Prince Charming is offering them a lifetime commitment.

    Men with at least minimal savvy have always known that there are gold-diggers and green card-seekers out there, and those who get fleeced anyway receive little sympathy.

    Women are now having to confront the fact that in this world of infinite choice, a man who promises lifetime monogamy to her might have some problems, unless she is hot and feminine. Otherwise, why would he trade away the fun of enjoying a variety of girls?

    So women with mediocre looks and personalities had better figure out what the catch is when their “catch” offers them a ring, just like a wrinkled old man at the country club must when Irina from Russia wraps her arms around him. Your stud muffin is expecting something out of his lifetime commitment. Is he a moocher? Is he a momma’s boy who expects the mothering to continue?

  142. Dave says:

    I happened upon a discussion earlier today of mothers expressing their sadness at feeling like single moms though they are married….

    And you believe their moaning and bitching? In virtually all cases, what they complain about does not even exist (e.g. so-called “gender pay gap”). And if it does at all, you can bet they are the root cause (e.g. wives who made it a headache for their husbands to be in their presence).

  143. safespaceplaypen says:

    @Anni
    Sounds to me like your husband’s an honorary member of the Faggot Club and you’re the one who culled him into joining! I wish him the best of luck in his journeys through the Divorce Cleaner’s lol

    @PM
    I have a solution for you. Tell your wife to pick her sh**t up and get things going. If she’s got a job, tell her to quit and focus on the home, downsize your living arrangements, then quit being a puss and get a second job yourself. If she has physical problems, hire a second hand, like a maid. If she’s retarded, tell her to quit being retarded. If you’re acting like a Faggot, then quit acting like a Faggot. There. Done. Now you can continue your life without being culled into the Faggot Club like Anni’s pet dog (dogsband?) above.

    @Kappasweet
    Lol Nothing you said is true. No one believes you. Kill yourself.

  144. Heidi_storage says:

    What’s with all the female commenters on this post? (Yeah, I’m aware of the irony in my asking this question.)

  145. @Dalrock

    Your response to Ken at 4:15 is more evidence of what makes your blog so effective. You express concern that, while you tried to see Ken’s response as valid, you couldn’t, and why. It is posts like this, and reactions like this to those who are provoked by your words, that make you the tip of the spear (lacking a more genteel metaphor)

  146. Red Pill Latecomer said, “You should give your husband unequivocal respect. Respect does not mean to pedestalize or worship. Respect is a tone of voice and a demeanor in behavior. Respect means to treat a person with the dignity and deference their status entitles them to. To speak to them without an angry edge to your voice. No sarcasm. No eye rolling.”

    I’m am convinced God commanded women to submit to husbands because they are naturally terrible followers that don’t know their place and men were commanded to lead because we naturally take every opportunity to avoid responsibility. God will not ask women to whine and moan about how bad their husbands are any more than God will ask men to sit on the couch and each doritos all day as a means of growing us spiritually.

  147. Splashman says:

    Annie, I call bullshit. Not just run-of-the-mill bullshit, but a huge steaming pile.

    I have a more-than-full-time job as a contractor, I have a wife and children, and for various reasons I am responsible for making sure all household chores get done. Most evenings I do dinner dishes myself while a daughter dries and puts them away (we don’t have a dishwasher).

    So I am speaking from experience when I say WTF are you talking about? Kitchen needs to be swept and mopped at least 3 times a week? WTF? Stove cleaned once a week? Absolute bullshit. Garbage daily? BULLSHIT! Grocery shopping every couple days? Toilet every other day? No kids and you do “at least” a load of laundry every 2 days? All of this is pure, unadulterated bullshit. Either (a) you and hubby are complete slobs who concentrate on making messes every moment you’re home, or (b) you’re giving OCD a bad name, or (c) you made up this bullshit to support your bullshit position. Gee, I wonder which it is?

    In my family, we do grocery shopping on Monday night after dinner for a pre-planned weekly menu. Laundry (3 loads) happens on Wed, housecleaning takes approx. 2 hours on Thur. And despite the kids our house (including our toilet) is as clean as any of our friends’.

    To repeat myself, Annie, you are spewing bullshit. Go do it somewhere else.

  148. JDG says:

    What’s with all the female commenters on this post?

    Resistance to the Despotism of the Petticoat will not be tolerated. The Feminine Imperative demands an immediate response.

  149. Splashman says:

    @PuffyJacket: “It would also appear Annie is deeply unpracticed in the art of checking her own bitchiness. This, as much as anything, explains the lack of affection in her marriage.”

    Yup. She thinks that what she’s expressing is reasonable, and that if she only explains herself clearly, we will be sympathetic.

    In reality, she sounds like a grade-A bitch. Husband may be a complete asshole as well, but even if so, that doesn’t excuse Annie.

  150. JDG says:

    Annie, kappasweet, Katharine, and all other feminist minded female readers – report to the kitchen. I repeat, report to the kitchen. It’s sammich making time, and those sammiches aren’t going to make themselves.

  151. Oscar says:

    Just in case you feel the need to induce vomit.

  152. feeriker says:

    “Annie” said, no doubt with a straight face:

    LOL It just shows how unfamiliar you are with housework and it might explain why you don’t see it as such a big deal.

    Reading comprehension check, Doll.

    FH clearly stated that he is single, meaning that he most certainly IS familiar with housework, since, unlike an entitled married Americ*nt princess who can shame the cuck she hitched into doing it for her or hiring someone to do it, he has no one else to do it for him. Matter o’ fact, I’ll bet that if you asked him nicely, he might even be up for showing you how easy, quick, and painless it is to do. But of course that would solve your problem and rob you of bitching fuel, so of course that’s not an option.

    The funny thing about the Annie-types is they actually are admitting they’ve failed at being Women. Or competent humans.

    What she describes could all be done with about 30 minutes of work per day, and about 2 hours on the weekend. It’s called basic pre-planning. And you still have a bunch of time to spend doing other things!

    Thread winner

    Indeed, when MEN have to SHOW women how to do simple tasks that nature designed women to do almost instinctively, it’s a sign that the model needs to be sent back to the factory and a full refund given.

    “Annie” is robbing her husband by failing to function as woman at even the most rudimentary level. It’s sad that he’s obviously the sucker BPB type who doesn’t know he’s been fleeced.

  153. sipcode says:

    Ken does not get it. His responses here still show that. Almost every post and comment of his that I have seen have shown me that he is beholden to man [afraid of man] and not God. Whoever said earlier that [effectively] Ken, not Lori, was upholding feminism is right.

    Anne: You seem like you really work hard and desire the Lord. He says to REST in His word; the simple truth of it. Look only at the word and not your circumstance. As the principle in Matt 6:33 says: despite how humanly impossible your situation looks, seek His ways first, THEN He will solve your problems. START with the word [actually forget the 2-way argument here] and He takes care of the rest. Embrace the ‘simplicity that is in Christ” the Word.

  154. Gunner Q says:

    Heidi_storage @ 6:56 pm:
    “What’s with all the female commenters on this post?”

    Good shots make your enemies scream.

    “I bring this up because I see a few here who are outspoken about staying single (feminist hater, et. al.), so where does this leave the human race?”

    It leaves the human race dead, which has always been the predictable consequence of punishing responsible behavior and tearing families apart for cash & prizes. You parasites are killing your host and instead of restraining your appetites, you wonder where your next innocent victim will come from.

    Not from us.

    Annie @ 3:32 pm:
    “Bathroom–needs to be cleaned at least once a week, and the toilet every other day”

    Stop eating at Taco Bell. That should help.

  155. feeriker says:

    Ken does not get it. His responses here still show that. Almost every post and comment of his that I have seen have shown me that he is beholden to man [afraid of man] and not God.

    Well, I suppose one could say in his defense that if the Church, that organization on Earth that’s supposed to represent the Body of Christ, is terrified of (wo)man even when it has God Himself on its side, who can blame Ken for not having the gonads or the bowel control to stand up for the Truth?

  156. infowarrior1 says:

    @Scott

    They worship their women as goddesses essentially provoking the jealousy of the most High.

  157. Yet Another Commenter, Yet Another Comment ("yac-yac") says:

    So, anyway, speaking of French Canadian folk songs (and, yes this is on topic to the OP and the comments thread — roll with me here, people), here’s a hyperlink for y’all, to an English translation of the lyrics to a very old “Call-and-Response” folk-song from Québec named La rose au bois [dat’s “The Rose in the Woods” for all you Henglish out d’ere]. Note the part about household chores:

    “It’s not the girls’ business To go see the boys, […]
     But it is the girls’ business To sweep the house […]”

    (See?!? I told you that this would be on topic).

    Anyway, the song itself is pretty catchy & entertaining, even if you don’t speak a lick of French — & so …

    here it is being sung for y’all on YouTube by
    the Québecois singer “Pierre Garand (“Garou”).

    Now, just in case you wonder where I am headed with this, as you begin watching, notice the composition of the audience as the camera pans across the recital hall in the first few dozen seconds, and then wait patiently until the audience reaction at about t=1:38, after he gets around to singing the verse about it being the women’s work to take care of the household chores,

    ♫ “Mais c’est l’affaire des filles      De balayer la maison” ♪

    Here’s a loose translation of his patter after the girls’ howls of outrage at that lyric:

    “What!? You mean it isn’t that way around here?!?”

    [more howls of outrage, cries of “no”, boos, etc.]

    “Whyever would you change something that works so well?!?”

    [further outrage]

    “In a couple, each has their asigned tasks, no?”

    [“Noooooooo!”]

    “And you see? — Since that, it hasn’t gone so well for couples, has it?
     You see? Everything has an explanation, girls!” [finishes rest of song]

    I thought this might amuse y’all, and there it is. (ツ)

    Yet Another Commenter, Yet Another Comment (“yac-yac”)

    Pax Christus Vobiscum. (ツ)

  158. infowarrior1 says:

    @feeriker
    ”who can blame Ken for not having the gonads or the bowel control to stand up for the Truth?”

    If even the so called majority of the churches caved. Its the believer duty to be faithful to his God.

  159. feeriker says:

    @IW1:

    If even the so called majority of the churches caved. Its the believer duty to be faithful to his God.

    No question. I probably should have phrased that post more clearly, as I intended it as explanation rather than justification.

  160. They Call Me Tom says:

    @Oscar: You have to remember that JC Penney’s former spokesperson once said, in pretended defiance, ‘We don’t need to appeal to heterosexuals, we need to appeal to homosexuals.’ They jumped the Shark long before Target ever did. So don’t expect any women that might interest heterosexuals to be promoting anything JC Penney’s is selling (I thought they were out of business, but apparently not yet).

  161. sipcode says:

    I may be wearing out my welcome today but I’m new to Dalrock and the post and comments here are refreshing to know: that some people actually get what is going on [badly] in the church.

    Christ said we will be persecuted for the truth and John MacArthur reiterated it with “you will be viciously attacked” for addressing women coming into submission, then JM proceeds to avoid the issue and support feminism – chickens out like essentially every pastor and theologian I have seen. The Church as we have known it is dead. God is breathing on the pile of bones stacked up in the valley [men – rottenness of the bones from women – Prov] and is now building His army of men. The church is in the process of going underground with the real believing men actually leading their households and interacting with other like minded men as the new nation and kingdom of God. While some of the comments here are fiery, they do express the real damage [and even godly anger] of what is ACTUALLY happening in marriage. Thanks Dalrock and all.

  162. We were on our honeymoon recently. It was a self-drive holiday Down Under. Before the trip, I booked the tickets and our accommodation. I planned the itinerary (including a mental map of the highways and freeways that we would take). I asked my wife to take care of our travel insurance.

    During the trip, I would take care of our meals, suggesting to her which restaurants we could go and what she would like to eat. I helped her with her luggage (and being a woman, she had more things than I did) when we were checking in at the airport, boarding the shuttle bus and loading them onto our rented car. Whenever we returned to our self-contained cottage or apartment, I would head straight for the fireplace and began building a fire. Winter in Australia was way too cold for her and I wanted to keep her warm and cosy before we head for bed.

    I took (and take) pride in making my woman feel comfortable. There’s nothing in the world I would trade for to see her fall comfortably asleep in our bed.

    Previously I insisted that for all self-drive trips when I was the only driver and the passengers would take care of our meals during dinners. I believe this was reasonable because driving for almost hours on end (sometimes at a stretch) can be tiring.

    A fortnight before the honeymoon, I mentioned to her that I would like her to take care of our meals. I was hoping that she would head for the internet sites or run off the dishes she could prepare in her head. Or perhaps draw up a shopping list.

    When we stopped by the supermarket, she froze and admitted that my mention about her taking care of our meals stressed her out. She had very little idea about how we could prepare our meals. Or even when she wanted to pick some food items, I told her that we could perhaps look for other alternatives as they were rather pricey.

    I had to take charge. I planned our meals ahead and then picked the food items off the shelves. I asked her what she would like for breakfast and grabbed the items. Back at the apartment and after I built the fire, I headed for the kitchen and helped her (she was washing and slicing the vegetables and meat).

    To cut a long story short, I did the cooking at the end (she sliced and prepared the items). At one point (after dinner on one night), she was unhappy because she felt helpless — I had usurped her (the woman’s) domain / place in the kitchen.

    In some ways, I see this as another aspect of a husband leading by showing her how things can be done with some practice. As much as I burn with anger against how society has shortchanged husbands, wives and families in the past 40-50 years, I have to deal with the problem practically and with all respect and love due to the woman I married.

  163. They Call Me Tom says:

    The only problem with housework, is that the party who most of ten wants it done, is also the party least interested in doing it. When I do my own dishes, I get myself a cold beer. Which makes me more generous than most women are with their husbands I imagine.

  164. BPP Special Ladies Edition:

    @Kappasweet: Give me a break. If you make 6 figures AND your husband works you can hire somebody to keep up the house. Behold the hamster in it’s natural state. By your description your husband is an abusive frackhole. Why would you stay married? I wonder if there is another side to the story. I am not sure the man you describe even exists except as a feminist straw man. Doesn’t like her to cook. What? A man thinks that wife making more money is something to brag about? Fuck off troll.

    @Lee Lee: Hi!

    @Katherine via@Dave: You are nice to your boss…because you must be nice to your boss. We use the same principle on married red pill with sexual denial. Frack me or frack you is one way to approach it. A woman will push you just as far and treat you just as bad as YOU let her. Rollos Rules may not be Gospel but they are close. A husband MUST be willing to walk away and burn it to the ground with women such as this because there is no other way she can be induced to be “nice” at least most of the time. When a woman is forced to be “nice” she is much happier- and like you already know, happy wife, happy life. 🙂

    @Grateful Bride: Enjoyable observations.

    @Annie: ” Leaving feminism on the side, there simply aren’t enough hours in a day for a woman to do it all by herself.”

    I have some experience with a high earning woman. You are creating straw men left and right as far as I can tell nobody on this thread (or anywhere I have ever seen) has EVER said that a man

    –doesn’t have to clean up after himself

    –can require his wife to work full time

    AND

    –can require her to do all the housework.

    Some guys are arguing on religious and philosophical grounds that a woman should stay home and do the housework. NOBODY is arguing that women are required to “do it all.” Take your straw man and stuff it up your far to tight ass.

    I do the fucking laundry, dishes, steam clean the carpets. I don’t do it because it is manly or cool but because it needs to be done and my wife makes $180,000 per year and works more hours than me. All these guys you are complaining about are Christian mostly single wage earners. They have wives who stay at home. They provide. The wife does girly things like picking up and the household chores.

    What you could possibly mean by this:

    >>>if I were to ask my husband whether he prefers spending time with his wife vs doing the dishes, he’d pick doing the dishes.

    Is VERY VERY telling. I just bet he would sweetheart.

    You have a cold, wicked and rebellious heart. You are envious exactly as Dalrock describes. The Lord said in the beginning your desire would be to rule over your husband. He meant you will be prone to always wanting to “fix” your environment and you will never be happy until you surrender. Your lists are pathetic and pointless. The floor does NOT need to be mopped 3X a week. The floor needs to be mopped when it needs to be mopped. Try checking off TWO jobs from your list every day and instead of getting them done, take your husband into the bedroom and blow him until he can’t take it any more. Pro Tip: Make sure to keep stopping and starting and take your time and make it wet and sloppy. Then lay back and beg him to fuck you hard. Pro Tip: try to move- wiggle, squirm, squeeze, feel him inside your body.

    Let us know if that advice makes you any happier and is better for your marriage and life than your worthless lists.

    @Dalrock: WTF happened to our male space?

  165. Spike says:

    Annie says:
    June 27, 2016 at 2:47 pm
    Feminist hater, let me ask you the following questions:

    1. Do you soil your own clothes?
    2. Do you dirty your own plates?
    3. Do you want nutritious food to eat?
    4. Do you leave dirt/a mess around the house?
    5. Are you able bodied?
    6. Do you expect your wife to work full-time and bring an income?
    7. Did you invent those appliances yourself? If not, it’s absolutely irrelevant who did invent them, it does not give you the right to expect women to pick your mess.

    If you answered “yes” to 1-6 and “no” to 7, then there is absolutely no reason for you not to pick up after yourself. You have absolutely no right to demand that a woman does all those things, even though she works outside the home just as much as you do.

    Leaving feminism on the side, there simply aren’t enough hours in a day for a woman to do it all by herself.

    I’m sorry Annie, but you’re being petty and stupid.

    Feminist hater or some other man here might just want to throw in just how many times he is the plumber, the electrician, the roof gutter cleaner, the landscaper, the bricklayer, the junk clearer.
    It’s called division of labor and men do it willingly knowing that it has to be done.

    So, if your division of labor is the internals, do it, knowing it has to be done.

  166. Anon says:

    Annie is just trolling for gina tingles. It is unfortunate that too many men who should know better take her words at face value. It is just a tingle-accrual tactic from her.

  167. wordsofgold says:

    I thought the same thing. I’m a housewife with two young children and one on the way. I also homeschool. I split my house work up by day. Her cleaning schedule for two adults who are gone all day seems insane.

  168. Anon says:

    JDG said :

    It’s sammich making time, and those sammiches aren’t going to make themselves.

    This sentence and Chuck Norris image mean JDG himself wants to eat the sandwich made by a ‘feminist’.

    This is unthinkable. It is well-documented that ‘feminists’ do not wash their hands after using the toilet. You could not pay me enough to eat something they touched..

    Yet, JDG continues with this wish…….

  169. JDG says:

    Anon – This sentence and Chuck Norris image mean JDG himself wants to eat the sandwich made by a ‘feminist’.

    Anon – Only in YOUR mind.

    Anon continues to try to put meanings into my comments. One could just as easily argue that I want poor Chuck to eat those sammiches. One could also argue that I just think those women should get back in their kitchens where they belong.

    Why is Anon so focused on my sammich based comments? Is it me he has a problem with or is it sammiches? Is it because, much like the feminists of he world, he doesn’t want women to make sammiches? Does he think women are demeaned when they make sammiches? Is Anon a closet feminist?

    It’s easy to impose meaning when there is no burden of proof.

  170. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Annie: It also irks me how entitled you lot are, behaving like it’s no big deal to keep a house and that it can be done with no problems. Here’s an idea–do it then yourself

    Not a very original idea. Lot’s of men are doing just that.

    I’m single. I do all my own house-cleaning. No maid. I even clean my own toilet. It’s no big deal. It’s easy.

  171. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Annie: I didn’t stop being a person after marriage, I also count …

    You’re implying that a traditional wife is not a person.

    You’re wrong about that. A woman who embraces the traditional role of a wife and mother — and does it in a devoted, loving, and humble manner — is still a person. Indeed, she is a very honorable and worthy person, one that many men would cherish.

    Annie is expressing hardcore feminism. She believes that to assume wifely chores is to stop being a person. Only people who pursue careers are persons. That’s why she envies men and wants to live in a man’s world. It’s the only way she can be a person.

  172. MarcusD says:

    Unsupportive Father: How Much Blessing is Needed?
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1015771

  173. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Annie also proves another point made on this blog. Women create work around the house. They establish pointless tasks, then complain when men won’t comply with the woman’s silly standards.

    Kitchen- the floor needs to be swept and mopped at least 3 times week …

    Why? There are two people in your house. Are you and your husband such slobs that you must clean the kitchen floor three times a week? I live alone. I clean my kitchen floor maybe once a month.

    the stove needs to cleaned once a week; the countertops need to cleaned multiple times a day, plenty of dishes to do daily (washed and put away)

    Huh? I wipe the countertop if I see some spill on it. It takes seconds. Otherwise, I leave it alone. Plenty of dishes? After I use a dish or glass, I run water on it, wipe it, and put it away.

    Garbage needs to be taken out daily.

    Thirty seconds? A minute at most?

    Grocery shopping at least once every couple of days

    I grocery shop almost every day. I like to take long walks. I pass by the grocery store — a mile from where I live — I fill a single bag, and carry it back. It’s good exercise.

    Bathroom–needs to be cleaned at least once a week, and the toilet every other day

    No they don’t.

    Laundry–at least a load per 2 days (sorted, washed, folded and put away)

    I do one load a day. I drop everything in the washer — no sorting. Everything in one load. A half hour later I move everything to the dryer. Then I remove everything and toss everything in the closet or on the bed. No folding.

    Bedrooms-need to cleaned once a week Whole house needs to be swept, mopped and dusted at least once a week

    Not.

    You don’t have kids. Your house can’t be all that filthy. I guess you want to live in a Better Homes and Gardens spread and are upset if your husband won’t support your silly ambition.

  174. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    It also occurs to me that while Annie has no time for housework, she has plenty of time to post on the internet. Curiously, I have no trouble finding time for both, and for much else.

  175. Ken says:

    Anon … sometimes people say the craziest things: Ken is not benefiting from the fact that Lori is one of the few women who can transcend the low default level that other women reside at. Ken would be equally happy with a nagging wife, as he does not have a higher expectation.

    You may want to give a little consideration to the fact that I am one of the few guys who was able to take his difficult and at times rebellious wife and help lead her, with the help of the Spirit, to where she is today.

  176. Ken says:

    Dalrock your assumption seems to be that the original post was about tackling the feminist agenda, and I am telling you that it was not. The post was intended as practical teaching tool to young Christian women. The fact that it was perceived by the feminists as outrageous is only part of the story, a part I did not intend to address in my followup. We are ministering to couples, not trying to lop the head off the beast and I am conscientious to try not to come across as unreal, or even more fringe than we are already perceived. Which is weird because we are about as normal an American family as you can find that is also strong in their faith. The ministry is always focused on the Christian who wants to learn and grow. I am glad you got a good post out of it, as your work is important, it is just not our work.

  177. BillyS says:

    Oscar,

    The one in the parable who was chastised got that because he did not even earn interest on the amount. He wasn’t slammed for not doubling the amount.

    He was lazy because he only hid the money. He refused to do anything to attempt to make money with it.

    We do not know, but I believe he would have been fine if he had tried to earn money (with devotion) and had even lost money. Activity towards the goal was the point, not the percentage. Though one capable of a great percentage would probably be expected to make that much as well. Those who get much owe their Lord much.

    =====

    I am sure those of you who allow no bitch in a woman are always just and right. I am far less tolerant of it now than I was in the past (though not much even then), but expecting it to never be present is expecting a wife to be perfect. No perfect wives on this earth guys. Please do stay single if you are that way and expect perfection.

    I despise bad attitudes, but I despise a lot of things that happen and griping about it won’t cause long term success.

  178. Linx says:

    @Ken
    “You may want to give a little consideration to the fact that I am one of the few guys who was able to take his difficult and at times rebellious wife and help lead her, with the help of the Spirit, to where she is today.”

    With the help of the Spirit? So who is the author of her life….. the writer or the pen?

  179. Anon says:

    Ken,

    Your problem is that you are far too afraid of ‘feminists’ to call their bluff, which is partly due to the fact that you assume their grievances are legitimate.

    Plus, bashing men without any evidence whatsoever feels good, simply because it is the *least* courageous approach to take. Both men and women are hardwired to place the male at low value, so what appears courageous is in fact the least courageous. By contrast, holding women accountable is far more courageous, since everyone will jump to bash you no matter how irrefutable the evidence of female inadequacy.

  180. feeriker says:

    Garbage needs to be taken out daily.

    WTF??!! A childless couple who aren’t even home during the day generate enough garbage to require a daily trip to the dumpster? What, are you hoarders? My family of four when I had two kids at home didn’t require garbage to be taken out more than once per WEEK, tops.

    Sorry, but I’m raising the bullshit flag on this one.

  181. feeriker says:

    We are ministering to couples, not trying to lop the head off the beast and I am conscientious to try not to come across as unreal, or even more fringe than we are already perceived.

    Ken, being a Bible-believing Christ-follower IS “fringe.” In fact, one could argue that it’s the very definition of fringe. Jesus told us as much when He warned his disciples that they would be hated, mocked, persecuted, and even killed for their faith and their teachings. That this apparently bothers you is very telling.

    Which is weird because we are about as normal an American family as you can find that is also strong in their faith.

    I must beg to differ with you on this assertion, as it’s only half true. YOU have indeed shown yourself to be a “normal” American husband in that you are either too terrified of the power of American feminism (and its built-in threat point to marriage) to call it out for what it is (i.e., unchecked discontent, envy, and rebellion), or you’ve been brainwashed and threatened into accepting it as normal or even laudable, as has 80-plus percent of the rest of the American male population, by both secular AND Christian authority.

    Your wife, on the other hand, IS abnormal, or “fringe,” if you prefer, but in a good way. She demonstrates most, if not quite nearly all of the qualities in a Christ-following wife espoused by Scripture, which is why she was so brutally savaged in her blog by her readers who hold NONE of those qualities, yet still delude themselves into thinking that they are ideal Christian wives rather than women in open rebellion against God. You’re doing them –more specifically their souls– no favors by enabling their rebellion. You’re most certainly not doing their Christian husbands any favors either, who clearly already have enough discontent and rebellion on their hands without an interloper throwing gasoline on the blaze. To paraphrase on old folk saying: with “brethren” doing things like that, what man needs the enemy?

    Yes, I’m being harsh here, but unfortunately that’s just about the only way the message of truth ever gets across anymore.

  182. JDG says:

    YOU have indeed shown yourself to be a “normal” American husband in that you are either too terrified of the power of American feminism (and its built-in threat point to marriage) to call it out for what it is (i.e., unchecked discontent, envy, and rebellion), or you’ve been brainwashed and threatened into accepting it as normal

    My thought as well. The question begs to be answered. What is “normal” in a thoroughly feminist society?

  183. “And so much for the duties of the husband and wife, which I do not so speak of as though it were in the power or nature of any man or woman to perform them; nay, by nature we be all inclined to the contrary. The wife is naturally disobedient and stubborn, prone to condemn and despise her husband; and he is ready either to be out of her company without cause, or, being with her, to be light and foolish, or else sour and churlish, and to do her hurt by his example, and make her worse rather than better. And both of them naturally are destitute of all true and spiritual love one to another.” – John Dod and Robert Cleaver

    (Emphasis mine)

    Source: http://www.westminsterconfession.org/godly-living/duties-of-husband-and-wife.php

  184. M.W. Peak says:

    This is why it only makes wives more miserable when their husbands cheerfully do these very easy tasks. They wanted to make him suffer, to feel the shame (in their minds) of being a woman, but maddeningly he feels no such thing.

    I would suspect this is why feminism promotes homosexuality among men and that they secretly hate gay men. The purpose of feminizing men is to get them to feel how horrible it is to be a woman, and yet gay men (and effeminate men) celebrate their femininity instead of being utterly miserable.

  185. jonakc1 says:

    @chokingonredpills

    you married someone that does not know to cook/ refuses to take care of her husband….
    lol…

  186. jonakc1 says:

    @splashman is one of those men who feel guilty their wife cooked for them so they do the dishes to somehow make it seem even lol…

    sigh this is hilarious
    not ONE man in the bible discussed running the home and supporting their wife’s dream plans , debated it and GOD never commanded men to be homemaker.

    yet here we have numerous men getting into the nitty gritty of homemaking and how long it takes them to do it!!!!
    and then claiming to be Godly…
    What would Godly men of the past think….

  187. jonakc1 says:

    PM quite obviously lives in submission to his wife

    women had more kids prior to the 1940’s and has less technology, yet the men were not pretending to be women and help do homemaking like you are…

    Those Godly women in the bible sure they earned, had servants etc
    but they never are shown to make their husbands run the home so they can earn/sit on facebook/justify laziness.

  188. Otto Lamp says:

    Off topic, but Bud Light has a new commercial out claiming:

    Women get paid less than men.
    Women have to pay more for stuff like cars and dry cleaning (cars? really cars?).

    http://adage.com/article/cmo-strategy/bud-light-tackles-gender-pay-equality-ad/304700/

    I’m not into boycotts, but maybe we need to start a “doesn’t have our backs” list. As in this company doesn’t have our backs.

  189. PokeSalad says:

    I am conscientious to try not to come across as unreal, or even more fringe than we are already perceived.

    Pretty much sums it up. Can only be so ‘edgy,’ eh Ken? I mean, after all, mean people on the internet will say things and such.

  190. Robert says:

    I want to state up front that I have a personal beef with Ken.

    That said, some of you are truly speaking out of your asses as to what you speak of the man. I’m in agreement with Dalrock’s post but some of you have gone WAY to far because you know way to little. The feminists dossier on this man is thicker than anybody writing here, including myself and including Dalrock. And it’s by a long shot. He does it under his own name, risking his business and family to stand up for beliefs that he holds in common with each of us. His name is smeared daily and lies are spoken about him daily. I think he flubbed this post greatly. But his body of work, even if at times not my style, is undoubtedly anti-feminist.

    I wrote Dalrock a while back and he never posted my comment getting on him about writing about Doug Wilson. Listen guys, if you can’t find a friend in Doug Wilson and Ken Alexander you are without hope of turning this around. You cannot take one post or one sermon and have it stand alone against their body of work and the life they live day in day out. I made that mistake once against Voddie Baucham and a brother here corrected me. I am forever thankful to that brother and don’t hardly see eye to eye with him, but you won’t catch me speaking out against him amongst my brothers.

    Before you open your fat traps to denigrate a man, do some damn homework, you speak about things you do not know and by doing so you prove yourself not worthy of being listened to in the least nor a worthy servant of their Master when you speak against a brother in such a way.

  191. Hank Flanders says:

    Katharine_Di_Cerbo
    To answer your question, the only thing that’s kept me from acting bitchy towards my boss is the fear of getting fired.

    And I do respect my husband, but as I live with him everyday, I am aware of both his faults and his strengths. There are no people on this earth who I respect in an unequivocal way – everyone is flawed. If you spend enough time with ANYONE, it’s impossible to keep them on a pedestal.

    You’re speaking as if being bitchy is something either brought on by negative emotions or not.
    In my view, being bitchy is a slip in upholding solid character. I can FEEL bitchy and not behave bitchy because it’s not who I want to be, to my husband or to anybody else.
    But I’m human and I slip sometimes.

    I appreciate your transparency in this post, but you do realize that it’s sad that you show your boss more respect than you show your husband, don’t you? Maybe that was the point of your post, but I can’t quite tell. What I’m wondering is do you believe you shouldn’t act bitchy to anyone least of all your husband, or is your husband just in there somewhere with everybody else, simply because he’s unfortunate enough to not have the same leverage over you an employer does? If it’s the first one, then we’re on the same page, but if it’s the second one, then I don’t see that anyone’s been twisting your words in this thread.

  192. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    On Salvo, a site claiming to be Christian, traditionalist, politically conservative, I found an article advocating early marriage: http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo33/choose-your-cornerstone.php

    Sounded good, but I checked to see if I could find any Blue Pill thinking. I found these excerpts:

    “[I]f you’d like to maximize your marital happiness, your odds of having a couple of kids, and of forging common memories and family traditions, you might not want to delay marriage if the right person presents him- or herself in your mid-to-late 20s.

    So early marriage is defined as mid-to-late 20s.

    “Dating in my twenties was like musical chairs. Everybody was running around and having fun. But then sometime around thirty, it was like the music turned off, and everybody started sitting down. I didn’t want to be the only one left standing up. So sometimes I think I married my husband because he was the closest chair to me at thirty.

    Interesting admission.

    Ted married Amy after his graduation in 1996. He was 22, and she was 21, with one year left to finish her degree. He even, with great satisfaction, took upon himself the responsibility for her final year’s tuition. It’s the kind of thing a man does.

    I guess it’s good that he found a 21-year-old bride. Still, the last part is a bit of the “man up” Blue Pill thinking. But luckily, 20 years later, it seems to have worked out. No frivorce so far.

  193. Oscar says:

    @ BillyS says:
    June 28, 2016 at 1:19 am

    “The one in the parable who was chastised got that because he did not even earn interest on the amount. He wasn’t slammed for not doubling the amount.”

    Agreed. My first point is that we’re all expected to return SOME profit from the blessings we’re given, not that the profit is required to equal a specific amount. My second point is that returning a profit from the blessings we’re given does not make us greater than the giver, and therefore the meme is (1) false and (2) blasphemous. Unfortunately, I’ve seen Christian brothers share that meme obliviously (not here, of course).

  194. Linx says:

    @Robert
    “I want to state up front that I have a personal beef with Ken.”
    Your problem not ours.

    “That said, some of you are truly speaking out of your asses as to what you speak of the man.”
    Give names.

    “I’m in agreement with Dalrock’s post but some of you have gone WAY to far because you know way to little.”
    Give names and be precise about what it is that you disagree with.

    “The feminists dossier on this man is thicker than anybody writing here, including myself and including Dalrock.”
    Do you know everybody here?

    “And it’s by a long shot. He does it under his own name, risking his business and family to stand up for beliefs that he holds in common with each of us. His name is smeared daily and lies are spoken about him daily. I think he flubbed this post greatly. But his body of work, even if at times not my style, is undoubtedly anti-feminist.”
    And it is about this that we are talking about. So give names and be precise about your points of issue.

    “Listen guys, if you can’t find a friend in Doug Wilson and Ken Alexander you are without hope of turning this around. You cannot take one post or one sermon and have it stand alone against their body of work and the life they live day in day out. I made that mistake once against Voddie Baucham and a brother here corrected me. I am forever thankful to that brother and don’t hardly see eye to eye with him, but you won’t catch me speaking out against him amongst my brothers.”
    I don’t care about names. If an argument is wrong then it must be highlighted.

    “Before you open your fat traps to denigrate a man, do some damn homework, you speak about things you do not know and by doing so you prove yourself not worthy of being listened to in the least nor a worthy servant of their Master when you speak against a brother in such a way.”
    Before you use your fat fingers to post your ridicule of others make sure that you highlight your issues and give names that you disagree with and not make nebulous statements.

  195. Pingback: Housework woes | Morally Contextualized Romance

  196. BillyS says:

    Robert,

    This is a rough forum in the discussion area. Accusations fly fairly freely. Anyone who can’t handle that shouldn’t participate.

    That doesn’t mean all the claims are right, but they will happen. Look for the gems of truth, not the harsh words and you can learn much.

    The problem today however is that bashing men is a popular sport that many are completely fed up with, myself included. I personally respect a lot about my own pastor, but he played a clip from Matt Chandler that men need to go to bed tired. This stuff is woven into the system so much that only a strong reaction has any chance of pushing it back out.

    Men who write or speak in public open themselves to public challenge. We do need to watch when we attack those we really do share common cause with, but we also need to stand for something or we ultimately stand for nothing.

  197. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    I am conscientious to try not to come across as unreal, or even more fringe than we are already perceived.

    You will never appease the feminists who were bothered by your wife’s post.

    I know many here do not like him, but Vox Day’s concept about “never apologize” because “SJWs always lie” is a very true principle in modern day discussions. Your apology and pandering will be turned against you.

    I am sure you will have the rare case where a wife backed down when a husband shared blame or such, but I have seen far too many of the opposite cases, where my wife or another wife merely doubled down when I brought up my own failings. I rarely do so now as it is not productive.

    You are probably making the error of trying to logically argue with those who only use rhetoric to make their points. You will not succeed with logic when emotion rules the day.

    You also do a disservice to the marriages you seek to help if you try to equate lack of housework with sin. Lots of flaws in that, including the fact that modern housework is a fraction of what it has been historically and could be handled easily (with reasonable expectations) even if a woman was working. The working wife is not ideal, but is a reality for many.

    I also get fed up hearing how men need to do more and less at the same time. They are told to provide for their families, but then told to not be workaholics. They are chastised for wanting to relax at home with no mention of their efforts to provide. This is far more reprehensible than not doing some housework.

  198. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    One other question: Why did you not write a post standing behind what your wife wrote and taking the women polluting her comments? Why only slap men for not doing enough?

  199. sipcode says:

    Robert:
    These men are speaking out about Ken when it is necessary (or Doug Wilson, whom I know personally and was an elder in his CREC). BTW: They are both public figures so all the more. We are charged to address issues peaceably at first but with repeated numbskullary, actually lies, we are charged to get angry. You obviously can believe what you want to believe but I have seen Ken in action and he is actually afraid of losing his business and that is why he is saying some of the things he is saying. He has something to lose. If we have something to lose then it is a god and God will slice and dice it on the table before us. Even Doug, whom I greatly admire, is afraid to say what is really going on in its full depth, because he has something to lose in his church and publication house and …. We have to be willing to lose it all.

  200. feeriker says:

    “Listen guys, if you can’t find a friend in Doug Wilson and Ken Alexander you are without hope of turning this around.

    Seriously? WOW. If white knight appeasers like those two are our “only hope,” then we might as well throw in the towel and go home right now. The movement to restore Godly masculinity and headship is doomed for sure.

  201. Robert says:

    Billy,
    I’ve been here for four or five years. Ran my own blog for awhile. I’m right up there on the feminists hit lists. I’ve had them go through my financials, my business, cyber stalked, I’ve been called a rapist, an abuser and much worse. And I expected it, because they were the enemy. I don’t have a problem with tough. I’ve seen a lot worse than this. I have a problem with friendly fire wounding one of our own. I see them not even knowing who they are attacking. Not evening have 1% of the story or knowing the man. Let alone handling it biblical. We’ve got plenty of enemies my brothers. No reason to treat our brothers like them. It is one of the biggest reasons at this present moment we are losing the battle. I’ve got no problem giving a firm rebuke to a brother but many have gone far past that and lose credibility and divide the ranks of those fighting alongside him in doing so. He’s earned better than that and we are called to be better & wiser than that.

  202. feeriker says:

    Ken,

    One other question: Why did you not write a post standing behind what your wife wrote and taking the women polluting her comments? Why only slap men for not doing enough?

    This, I think, is the $64,000 question most of us are asking. What possible benefit would Ken think he would gain by cutting Lori off at the knees in front of the hostile feminists storming the gates?

    Then again, he’s already said that he’s afraid of appearing too “fringe,” so I guess that’s our answer.

  203. safespaceplaypen says:

    Dalrock, am I not allowed to post? Have I already broken a special rule?

  204. Anon says:

    Ken will never grasp that for the type of ‘feminist’ that gets troubled by Lori’s post, there are only two acceptable actions a man can take :

    1) Give all his money to women.
    2) Die.

    Ken is still attributing basic assumptions about morality to the ‘feminists’ when the evidence points in the opposite direction..

  205. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Ken appears willing to “man up” and white knight for feminists, but not for his own Red Pill wife. Odd.

  206. Dalrock, I think I have a comment in mod. Did I go to far with my explicit suggestions?

  207. feeriker says:

    I have a problem with friendly fire wounding one of our own. I see them not even knowing who they are attacking.

    In war, an army is only as strong as its weakest soldiers. If a soldier of your army is giving aid and comfort to the enemy, however inadvertantly and unintentionally, then he is for all practical intents and purposes one of the enemy.

    By siding unreasonably and unjustly with the feminist mob against not only his fellow men, but against his own WIFE who was exhibiting the Godly behavior mandated by Scripture and urging other wives who are in open rebellion against God to do the same, he relinquished any legitimate claim to being a comrade in arms.

    Look, I only know Ken from what little I’ve seen of his writing. For all I know he might sincerely be aspiring to be the most devout and godly husband in Christendom. But when the healthy tree bears poison fruit, that fruit must be culled and called out for what it is and the tree pruned accordingly. Or, to use a more apt war analogy, when a soldier is derelict in his duty he is relieved of that duty, removed from the battlefield (to prevent harm to his comrades that might result from his continued dereliction) and disciplined accordingly.

    I’m not trying to make this a personal attack on Ken or anybody else. I’m simply pointing out the terrible harm that his misguided views and advice pose to Christian marriages. I know he risks much, but we ALL do when we stand up for what’s right and just.

  208. @Ken: Welcome brother! This place is a no holds barred male space so I applaud your courage to face the fire. I hope you will stay around and, at some point, recognize your error in White Knighting for all the “Annies” and feminists of the world. White Knighting is a natural, inborn instinct in men and it certainly had a place in a patriarchal society where men were in control. However, in the world we inhabit with women in charge, White Knighting is practically satanic. You are encouraging the worst elements of female nature to take (even more) advantage of men and to use your words to continue and further their rebellion. Your words are tantamount to the feminist fiction of Adam egging on Eve and telling her “Go ahead and eat the apple. It is your choice. I will support you no matter what you do.”

    Just because YOU have a submissive wife who you think was brought to the light by you and the Holy Spirit playing tag-team doesn’t mean that the VAST MAJORITY of men have one. In fact, almost all women are in open rebellion. Almost all wives openly resent their powerless husbands. Almost ALL women use the titillate and deny game of inspired sexual performance followed by gradual sexual withdrawal to gain control of the relationship. Men let women behave like prostitutes, selling a quick frack for doing the dishes and we wonder why they are so resentful. You would nullify the tiny bit of power your wife gave men by simply holding women accountable! Why would you do that?

    Your wife sees what has happened to our society. Why can’t you? Perhaps if your angelic wife suddenly decided to “Eat Pray Love” and you had NO POWER WHATSOEVER to prevent it and at the same time your Holy Spirit suddenly went dark and silent, then you might understand the despair that YOU help create for men in this feminized society. Think about it. You THINK you have power but the ONLY power you have is the power to leave. Your wife has all the rest of it and the minute that holy creature decides to change horses you will finally understand what we are trying to discuss and why we are so opposed to your words.

  209. BubbaCluck says:

    You THINK you have power but the ONLY power you have is the power to leave.

    That is one VERY uncomfortable truth of life.

  210. Oscar says:

    Doug Wilson and Ken Alexander clearly have blind spots. Guess what? We all do.

    Our blind spots are – by definition – invisible to us but visible to others. That’s why we need brothers in Christ to point them out to us. That process is unpleasant at best, sometimes painful, but always necessary. That’s one reason I keep returning to this site. Dalrock, Cane and a few others have pointed out blind spots I didn’t know I had. Undoubtedly, there are more, but that’s why I’m here.

    Dalrock pointed out one of Ken’s blind spots. Ken resisted. That’s normal. That’s what usually happens when a brother points out one of our blind spots. Whether or not Ken will recognize his blind spot remains to be seen.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    By all means, let’s reprove, correct and instruct in righteousness, but let’s not accuse a brother of being an enemy because of a blind spot he doesn’t yet see.

    Full disclosure: I met Doug Wilson when I was in college, attended one of his bible studies and respect him greatly.

  211. Daily Llama says:

    “What Sanger calls “imprisoned futility”, Betty Friedan called “The Problem That Has No Name”. This is absolutely a feminist feeling, and was the battle cry that launched the modern feminist movement.”

    Post industrial revolution saw a major decrease in work for the average family; grandparents, parents, kids, pets, before the industrial revolution EVERYONE use to work very hard in, around and outside the home(stead). Friedan was an upper middle class 1950s American housewife and there has never been a more privileged person. Without having to work outside the home, and with housework considerably lessened through technology and higher standard of living. She had, they all had, lots of time on their hands. If you want to see someone go crazy, give them nothing to do and nothing to aim for, no goal. That’s the “problem with no name”. These women were aimless.

    Add to that the fact that this new post industrial American society offered nothing more than consumerism as culture and its a recipe for Valium addiction. Betty Crocker Inc came out with a cake mix at the time which required nothing more than adding water. It did not sell well and Madison Avenue couldn’t fathom why. Turns out when the mix required you to “add 1 egg and water” sales skyrocketed. The conclusion was that 1950s American housewives were so obsessive compulsive and perfectionist (or just plain aimless), that they needed to feel they were “doing something” or felt guilty! Whether they were OCD naturally or were made to feel that way by the new consumerist culture, who knows? But they are STILL like that. Today the internet provides an exciting means of wiling away the time, but even that gets old after a while. Unless someone is getting paid to blog, they usually fizzle out after a year or two because its just the same old shit over and over again.

    As pointed out already, women make more work for themselves 1. by buying way to much stuff (most men are minimalists at heart) and 2. obsessing over how that stuff looks in the house.

    @Annie, may I suggest you just take a devil may care attitude about the mess you perceive your husband to be making? Don’t do anything about it. Don’t clean it up and don’t nag about it. Just let it lie. Clean up after yourself only. And may I suggest go minimal? Get rid of all the things (including furniture) that you don’t absolutely need to survive. Here you buy not only a mattress but a spring pad, bed frame, etc. Get rid of those and you’ll find all you need is a mattress, if even that. There’s more to life than “things” and cleaning them. Relax, have fun, enjoy the company of your husband even if its in the pile of his dirty clothes😉

    @Sam
    “I bring this up because I see a few here who are outspoken about staying single (feminist hater, et. al.), so where does this leave the human race?”

    Who cares? Does this planet require humans? If less humans are born then that’s less souls going to hell.

    @Moses, which Asian country do you live in? I ask because in my travels I’ve never seen middle class and above Asian men do any maintanence work like you describe. They hire people to fix washing machines and stuff.

  212. iamadamalan says:

    “the fact remains that some men should be helping more around the home” – Ken

    Herein we see yet again the usual AMOGing. WHO has the right to decide how much the husband and wife should help around the house respectively? The wife? Ken? Feminists? No! The husband, because he is the Head of the wife! He and only he has authority.

    “The Christian message is all about serving one another” – Ken

    Hello equalism!

    Feminists are angry because in their rebellion they don’t want to serve, but be served. And when they hear ‘serve one another’ and ‘servant leader’ all they really hear is ‘serve me’.

    While Christians are to serve one another, marriage is the picture of the Christ-Church relationship and the service primarily goes one way: God created women specifically for serving man; not the other way around.

  213. Oscar says:

    @ Daily Llama says:
    June 28, 2016 at 11:22 am

    “Who cares?”

    The one who created us does, otherwise He wouldn’t have created us.

    “Does this planet require humans?”

    According to the One who created both; yes.

  214. Daily Llama says:

    “the fact remains that some men should be helping more around the home” – Ken

    As already pointed out, if everyone just picks up after themselves as they go, and parents pick up after kids below 4 years, there really is no major housework to be done.

  215. Daily Llama says:

    “The one who created us does, otherwise He wouldn’t have created us.”

    Then if its so important he can create more. The argument that people should have kids (were at almost 8 billion now) just because no one will exist at some point if we don’t never made sense. Souls will exist always, somewhere, in some species. If god wants humans on this planet so bad once we’re all gone, he can create some new ones.

  216. Oscar says:

    @ Daily Llama says:
    June 28, 2016 at 11:46 am

    “Then if its so important he can create more.”

    He gave us that task.

  217. Daily Llama says:

    @Oscar, then knock yourself out. Why stop at just 10? Good luck and godspeed!

  218. Oscar says:

    @ Daily Llama says:
    June 28, 2016 at 11:53 am

    “then knock yourself out. Why stop at just 10? Good luck and godspeed!”

    I have nine so far. Thanks.

  219. Daily Llama says:

    Not enough!
    😉

  220. Oscar says:

    I’m a slacker.

  221. Interesting conversations here.
    I do not do housework all the time, but if it needs to be done, then I’m not waiting around.
    I’m getting it done. Checking it off the to-do list and moving on.
    I’m in the man camp that has always enjoyed cleaning house. I blame that on my Teutonic heritage and upbringing, and that damned curse that is: “Ordnung muss sein”.
    Washing windows, doing dishes, washing and folding laundry, mopping floors, etc.. I put in the earbuds and escape for a few hours while I work. Very cathartic. I can only recommend it.
    I also prefer doing that work myself because, frankly, I do a far better and more thorough job than she could ever hope to. And she knows it

    I get a great sense of accomplishment from mowing and trimming the lawn, planting and cultivating the garden, too etc. I do all of this for me, not for her approval of me, or to avoid her nagging. I actually get more satisfaction from this than the daily grind of 65 hour weeks at the office because in my field, the churn is constant, and there’s no end in sight.

    There’s nothing quite like having a properly cleaned house, mowed and trimmed lawn, and tilled green garden by 2:00 p.m on a Saturday, with my German Shepherd at my side and an ice cold beer in my hand surveying my domain.
    .
    What surprises me from the comments is this: Comparatively speaking, housework is goddamned easy. Ridiculously so. If you do it well, and on a schedule, it doesn’t take that much time or effort.

    That any adult female, or wife, would ever think it appropriate to publicly or privately complain about doing it, or about her husband in relation to that house work – I don’t care if she works full time or part time or not at all – is just embarrassing herself in prolific fashion.

    My observation is that so few women and wives today even know what they’re doing. Almost like they had no models from which to learn how to do things. Contrary to claims, they don’t perform particularly well at the workplace. They don’t know how to properly clean and maintain a home or a vehicle. Few are actually “awesome with kids”. And the majority don’t even know how to cook nutritious meals and stay fit themselves.

    What is unsurprising is the fact that more and more young men have the same observations – little to no incremental value that would enhance, simplify or improve their lives by hitching their wagon to such burdensome phillies.

  222. PokeSalad says:

    You THINK you have power but the ONLY power you have is the power to leave.

    Exactly. When or if you ever face the power of the wife + the State, you will bitterly realize how powerless you are.

  223. Linx says:

    @Daily Llama
    “The argument that people should have kids (were at almost 8 billion now) just because no one will exist at some point if we don’t never made sense.”

    Genesis 9:7 “As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

    It isn’t an argument it is an instruction.

    “If god wants humans on this planet so bad once we’re all gone, he can create some new ones.”

    You’re putting the cart before the horse.

  224. Feminist Hater says:

    Ya, just imagine if Ken had come out swinging in defense of his wife’s submissiveness instead of indirectly lambasting it. Just the thought would have gotten Ken far more support.

    Ken, the feminists don’t care. You can’t win them over, trying to will only bring you down.

  225. Dalrock says:

    @Bluepillprofessor

    Dalrock, I think I have a comment in mod. Did I go to far with my explicit suggestions?

    Perhaps. But I didn’t moderate it. I’m not sure why askimet binned it as spam. I found it and unbinned it.

  226. justdoit says:

    Kappasweet is an obvious troll, with he far-fetched tale that reads like a carefully constructed parody, which is exactly what it is.

    Annie is another. Look how she carefully constructs her tall tale of how identical her and her husbands work day is, except she does all the shopping and cooking on top of that. I don’t believe it for a second. Come on, Annie. You married him because he is better than you and he has larger responsibilities. We both know that.

  227. Ken says:

    @Billy, You ask, One other question: Why did you not write a post standing behind what your wife wrote and taking the women polluting her comments? Why only slap men for not doing enough?

    The answer is that I was hardly “slapping men down” in not closing the trap door because vox teaches “never apologize” because “SJWs always lie” . Herein lies the wrong thinking of the group, that somehow I intended to take on the ardent feminists. Why not? Because that is not our mission, at least it is not in keeping with Lori’s mission to train the younger women. Right or wrong I saw this as an opportunity to show those seeking for the truth that we are reasonable Christian people who stand firmly on God’s Word in helping marriages, not a couple out to take on Feminism.

    I have never really participated here as my time will not allow it, but I think it unfair for those of you who may spend hours a week trying understand and dissect such things, to then show frustration when others like me do not share your knowledge, or perhaps perspective. Without spending a lot more time studying here with you, I must be true to maintain what the Spirit places on my heart and mind. And my heart and mind, and Lori’s, is not a big agenda of battling SJW’s or Feminist. Certainly we have to do so at times, but our task is the effort to minister directly to those Christians who have the heart and mind of Christ. Not battle the SJW’s.

    And we believe such listeners can be shown by the Spirit inside of them that they are to be obedient to God and His Word, without having to regularly drive them back to Genesis 3:16, or have Lori’s ministry narrow down to a fight against the Beast.

    I am sorry to all here who I may have let down by not focusing better on what you believe was such a lost opportunity. I did not realize when I was writing that I had you group of men to hold me accountable in a battle I wasn’t waging. It’s your battle, not mine, even as we battle arm in arm at times. I certainly will think upon the suggestions made and I am glad I gave you some fodder for discussion, but I would caution against the idea that somehow because this is a though nosed forum it gives license for some of the things said.

    The idea that I somehow threw husband’s under the bus is hardly the truth, and as strong as I am on husband leadership, I am not about to start playing a one sided game that many Christian men cannot do better, out of fear for the serpent’s whispers in his wife’s ears. If anyone knows the frustrations of a wife listening to the serpent’s whispers, I have been there. The first seven years I played along trying to be a good husband just as older men coached, but from 8-20 years I set about leading even without a follower. Such leadership still demands servant leadership and understanding, calling out sin as sin, and asking to change and accountability. You see how strong my wife is, give me a little credit, and the HS the rest.

    The fact that each Christian husband is to decide how to lead his marriage forward does not wipe out the demands of God’s Word on his life. If we can’t teach things in balance speaking truth to both sides of the relationship, then we are living in a sorry Christian time. Those who have ears to hear will listen to the Word, and those who do not will continue walking in rebellion. The church and this world desperately needs the older godly women to step up and train the young ones in God’s ways, so let’s try to keep such teachers on their mission without trying to push them into an agenda that is not prescribed for them.

  228. Anonymous Reader says:

    All I know about Ken is what I’ve read in this thread.

    That said, it appears to me that he attempted to appease the raging feminists who attacked his wife. If we’ve learned anythig about feminists and feminism over the last N years (5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50…) it is that appeasing them never works, and in fact leads them to redoubled efforts.

    I totally understand the fears regarding Ken’s business, whatever that may be. But there’s no half-way available here – short of becoming a full 3rd wave sex-pozzy feminist, there’s no way for Ken to apologize / retreat / appease the harpies enough for them to leave him alone. Think of modern feminists as the flying monkies from the old Wizard of Oz movie (1930 something). They swarm and attack, period.

    Given that these people are out to get Ken for the moment, he may as well defy them, because they’ll come after him anyway. The best way to defy them is to fully back his wife in her writings, and to do so with Bible quotes. Don’t engage them in debate, they don’t want to debate, they want to destroy. Someone up thread noted that reason wont’ work, he’s correct, what will work is shaming feminists and standing up to them.

    Another analogy – feminists as walking zombie dead. They don’t think, they just march and grab and try to chew. They can’t be reasoned with…

  229. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ken
    Herein lies the wrong thinking of the group, that somehow I intended to take on the ardent feminists. Why not? Because that is not our mission, at least it is not in keeping with Lori’s mission to train the younger women

    With all respect it is not possible to teach 20-something women without taking on feminism. That is because they are saturated with feminism, they grew up surrounded by feminist infotainments, feminist textbooks, feminist teachers. Even the most isolated home-schooled young woman who never went to any movies and never watched any commercial TV is still exposed to feminist propaganda via advertising, via the tabloids in the grocery store, etc.

    The same goes for the young men. They are drowned in feminism, from the first grade on. Like it or not if you are going to teach young married women, you have to deal with feminism.

    Telling women that their husbands don’t do enough is feeding the beast, not starving it.

  230. Feminist Hater says:

    You see Ken. The problem with the approach you took was to interfere with the marriage of other men. You didn’t just state that each man should lead his family as he sees fit and then leave, you actually stated that each husband should do more to appease his wife. You succumbed to their bickering over their husbands and you didn’t even hear the other side. You didn’t give the husband a chance to respond. That is throwing them under the bus for you gave those harpies ammunition to use against their husbands and men in their lives.

    There in lies the rub. If you truly believe each man must lead, then let him lead. If you really wanted to respond to these feminists, it would have been to tell them to stop being rebellious and to follow and be submissive to their husbands or their fathers if they are not married.

    You couldn’t though because you have also been infected with feminist thought.

  231. Hank Flanders says:

    Anonymous Reader

    – feminists as walking zombie dead. They don’t think, they just march and grab and try to chew. They can’t be reasoned with…

  232. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ken

    Herein lies the wrong thinking of the group, that somehow I intended to take on the ardent feminists. Why not? Because that is not our mission, at least it is not in keeping with Lori’s mission to train the younger women.

    […]

    I am not about to start playing a one sided game that many Christian men cannot do better, out of fear for the serpent’s whispers in his wife’s ears.

    This is what you can’t see.

    LORI’S MISSION IS TO SPEAK TO YOUNG WOMEN ABOUT WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.

    YOU–NOT LORI, BUT YOU–REDIRECTED THAT TO SPEAK TO YOUNG WOMEN ABOUT WHAT HUSBANDS SHOULD DO AND REMIND THEM WHAT SOME HUSBANDS ARE DOING WRONG.

    TALKING ABOUT WHAT HUSBANDS DON IS COUNTER-ACTIVE TO LORI’S WORK; A LARGE PART OF WHICH IS TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN TO STOP CONCERNING THEMSELVES WITH WHAT THEIR HUSBANDS DO.

    Suppose Lori was a nutrition blogger trying to help fat girls eat healthy, so she wrote a post about eschewing pastries. However; your follow-up “defense” post contained multiple statements of the tastiness of doughnuts and cupcakes. Suppose Lori was an alcohol counselor trying to help alcoholics learn how to live without the bottle. Then your “defense” post was how a spouse might reasonably drive one to drink. These caveats are not balanced truths, and they just ought not be said to struggling sinners. More on balanced truth below.

    If we can’t teach things in balance speaking truth to both sides of the relationship, then we are living in a sorry Christian time.

    1) We ARE living in a sorry Christian time; especially where marriage is concerned. Your own story of 20 years of strife is testimony to this…and that was 15 years ago. You know things are worse now!

    2) Your practice of balanced truth is wrong-headed. A balanced approach to speaking the truth is to address the core message to the whole audience, but reserve secondary concerns for specific instances. So when addressing the Internet talk about God’s plan for men and women. In this case, that means staying on the message that women are to be submissive and they are to be keepers of the home, e.g., doing the housework. Balance in speaking truth also means that you don’t address particular infractions except in specific instances. So don’t talk about a husband’s lack of contributions to women’s work unless you are going to address, say, Bob, whom you have seen as having a particular problem with leading his wife with love; which is different than whether or not he does enough housework because the former is Biblical, but the latter is a statistic which you have mis-applied as a moral.

  233. feeriker says:

    With all respect it is not possible to teach 20-something women without taking on feminism.

    Bingo.

    Even more accurately, biblical headship and respect for husbands, among women of any age cohort, can NEVER be restored unless the beast of Feminism is slain. To quote a time-worn, but accurate maxim, you can only kill the snake by cutting off its head. To use a medical analogy, treating the aches and pains without driving the fever virus out of the body is pointless.

  234. JDG says:

    This thread is a goldmine. There are many well reasoned and logical statements made here that are grounded in biblical truth. I also wanted to share that I often bring these topics up in my conversations with other Christians. I have noticed a slight decrease in the opposition to these long ignored truths.

    There are still many that disagree, get defensive, and even get angry, but in my circles more folks are starting to get it (mostly men). We may actually see some sort of change (at least among Bible believing Christians) in the not to distant future. One can hope.

  235. Daily Llama says:

    “Genesis 9:7 “As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”

    “It isn’t an argument it is an instruction.”

    Done! To the tune of 7 billion and growing….

    Ken, I’m willing to bet you and your family members live like typical middle class Americans, buyying lots of stuff, right? Baking soda and organic apple cider vinegar diluted with water make excellent shampoo and conditioner. The only skincare anyone needs is olive or coconut oil. If you all stop shaving, waxing, etc you will save thousands of dollars a year. Baking soda makes an excellent body wash, skin exfoliator and natural toothpaste and deodorant as well.

    But like typical American consumers you and your family would probably “just die” from withdrawal if you didn’t go out and buy unneccessary stuff, right?

    DOWNSIZE. There will no longer be much stuff to clean, forget about complaining about it.

  236. Kevin says:

    People claiming both spouses need to work are either atypical or have crazy expectations. I made 15k in grad school so my wife worked. As soon as I bumped that up to 40k with a job she quit. And we did just awesome financially. We saved enough to buy a house while raising several kids. We shopped at thrift stores. We could only eat out once a month. There were things we could not do but there were tons of things we could do. If you make the median income in America you can life like a king. You might need to live in a low cost state, but it is 100% doable.

    Someone was complaining how they both worked. If you both work and have no kids the weekly chores are on the order of 15 minutes per day and 30 minutes on the weekend. Unless you are hopeless slobs you are not there enough to make a mess. No kids! Who makes a mess?

  237. Daily Llama says:

    Here’s some women begging for the traditional way of life. http://revolutionfromhome.com/2016/04/absence-village-mothers-struggle

    My comment is still in moderation but I wrote;

    “The village starts with the family. The nuclear family; mom, dad, kids, and spreads out from there into the extended family; grandparents (a set who will usually live with the parents, the other set nearby), aunts, uncles, cousins etc.
    The main problem is that the core family unit has broken down and we don’t even have nuclear families anymore but single parents, the result of divorce, baby daddy/baby mama-ism, single parenting, etc.
    Get the nuclear family solid again first and then we can talk about “village”.”

  238. Ken says:

    With all respect it is not possible to teach 20-something women without taking on feminism.

    Who needs to take on feminism head on when we have this promise of God: “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” It is the Word of God we are to focus on, as those words are life changing. And no woman needs to know anything about feminism to fall in love with Jesus and desire to obey Him in everything.

    It’s not that Lori’s ministry does not have to address this issue, as she does quite well, just not always head on. I recall the the words of Jesus: “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise (shrewd) as serpents and innocent as doves” (Matt 10:16).

    The goal of Christian ministry is not to lop the head off the serpent, but to make disciples. We can pontificate all we want, but if we are not actively involved in making disciples who understand the heart of the gospel is loving and serving, “because his love compels us,” then what are we really? Just another face behind a moniker pontificating “how things really should be or should be done?” We have lots of second guessers in the church, just not enough ministers of the gospel, wiling to invest their time, energy and love directly into an individual person. That is what is really missing.

  239. Lost Patrol says:

    Here is some unrequested time travel that has the subject of housework embedded between the lines. A feminist from the frontier (that most men I know would be happy to claim).

    To ensure I infringed no copyright rules, I have placed a link to the book, and a link to the free pages. I hope this is how to do an extended quote properly.

    The short story is only page 214 down to the cow. The missing page 213 is 4 lines that tells you the author of the story was 10 years old in 1896. His family was ranching in Oklahoma territory.

    Note that the man of the house is not home, but it’s as if he were.

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Cow_People.html?id=YmiEzPdZe6sC&source=kp_cover

    https://books.google.com/books?id=YmiEzPdZe6sC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=%22My+mother+replied:+%27Come+in,+gentlemen.+My+son+will+show+you+where+your+horses+can+graze.+Certainly+I+shall+prepare+you+some+food.%27&source=bl&ots=sO6aQFFhZX&sig=qPtC8fpZXQiRBPcBqGn59nRazbQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqhuXm6cvNAhUs44MKHdtxBk4Q6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=%22My%20mother%20replied%3A%20'Come%20in%2C%20gentlemen.%20My%20son%20will%20show%20you%20where%20your%20horses%20can%20graze.%20Certainly%20I%20shall%20prepare%20you%20some%20food.’&f=false

  240. Lost Patrol says:

    OK then. That did not work as the story link seems too long. My apologies. If you are still on board, you can search the story easily with something like “My mother replied: ‘Come in, gentlemen. My son will show you where your horses can graze.’

    I don’t know how to navigate the copyright process to share a whole page of a book. Rookies, what can you do?

  241. Ken says:

    @ Cane, I will ponder it…

  242. SnapperTrx says:

    Recently I watched the film “In the Heart of the Sea”, a good movie about the inspiration for Moby Dick. In the first few minutes of the film the lead character, played by Chris Hemsworth, discusses with his wife his leaving on a whaling expedition – for two years. TWO. YEARS.

    Stuff like this has often made me wonder how men back in days long past made it to heaven, given that they weren’t around to do things like help with housework, take wives on dates or even see the birth of their children. They were too busy facing death, dismemberment and the elements to provide for families they did not often see. I’m sure some men were able to work relatively close to their homes, but to make a living on the sea certainly meant months or years away from the mainland. I look toward the recent Little House on the Prairie episode my wife was watching in which the father and his best friend left their families behind to go find work when their crops didn’t make it. They spent months away delivering ‘blasting oil’ and mining to make the money needed for their families to live.

    Were the men in these times sinning for ‘not spending enough time with their children’? Or for ‘not helping clean the house’? Certainly we modern men have the advantage of being able to travel great distances in minutes, but being in such close proximity to our families seems to have made our wives over-possessive and over-controlling. Why? Because they can be, now. We can be reached instantly by phone, we can be asked to grab something on the way home from work or we can be bitched at about whatever irks her for the day.

    A man does not commit sin by failing to do housework. A man who wishes to do housework certainly can, if he feels the need. I’m sure wives are appreciative to a point (after all, too much of a good thing will always garner complaints), but a wife should not expect her husband to do ‘his share of the household chores’ any more than a man should expect his wife to drive down to the shop and give him a hand pulling a transmission. Its just not her element, and not her responsibility.

  243. Original Laura says:

    In my parents’ generation, a big percentage of young couples bought a modest but brand new house, the wife did not work outside the home until the children were old enough to do a substantial amount of housework, and the children walked to school. The piano teacher came over to the house of the pupil, and music lessons were often the only non-school sponsored activity in which children were enrolled. Many families had only one car and few middle class or working class families had any credit cards. The family had no debt other than the house payment and perhaps a car payment.

    In more recent decades more couples end up purchasing “fixer uppers”, and children are often enrolled in schools that are half an hour or more away from home. Evenings and weekends are chock full of driving the children all over creation in order for them to participate in sports, drama, music, foreign language classes, etc. If the wife is a housewife, her day is chopped into small chunks that aren’t terribly useful for making progress on major projects, which can lead to a great deal of frustration. If both parents work full-time outside the home, the result is complete chaos.

    So, the shiny appliances are great and have transformed the lives of many people, but other people have not seen an actual increase in the amount of leisure time that they have. In particular, working couples with young children do not have an enviable lifestyle.

    My advice to young couples would be:

    (1) Don’t buy a fixer upper unless you have a plan for completing all the repairs within 18 months. It is horrible to work all day and come home to endless, messy, half-finished projects in a house that is never neat and clean because it is a construction zone. Combining a fixer upper with small children strips all the joy out of parenthood, because the house is unsafe for children..

    (2) Avoid enrolling your children in a far-away school. If your child has a handicap and needs to attend a certain school, consider moving. Otherwise, use the local school or homeschool. Very few schools are actually worth a twice-per-day school run.

    (3) Just say NO to excessive extracurricular activities. They destroy the rhythm of family life, and most kids would get more out of a regular family dinner time than they get out of being on three or four different sports teams per year.

    (4) Sit down and actually count the cost of having the wife work full time. Many families actually end up worse off, when you factor in the child care, higher taxes, the upgraded wardrobe and transportation costs for the wife, take-out food, etc. If necessary, consider radically simplifying and downscaling your lifestyle to make it possible for the wife to stay home.

    (5) It may be too late to avoid student loans in your own life, but advise your children to avoid them. Student loan debt can make it very difficult for the wife to stay at home. In some cases, the couple’s student loan debt makes it very hard for them to even have children.

  244. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ken, who was the first feminist? Who was the first woman to disobey her husband’s clear instruction in favor of following her own opinion?

    Ponder that. Then tell us all how there’s no need to counter feminism.

  245. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ken, which part of the BIble tells you to denegrate other men to their wives? Just asking.

  246. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ 2:06 pm:
    “Herein lies the wrong thinking of the group, that somehow I intended to take on the ardent feminists. Why not? Because that is not our mission, at least it is not in keeping with Lori’s mission to train the younger women. Right or wrong I saw this as an opportunity to show those seeking for the truth that we are reasonable Christian people who stand firmly on God’s Word in helping marriages, not a couple out to take on Feminism.”

    Ken, if you have set yourself up as a leader and teacher of Christianity then the principle of servant leadership, as established by Christ at the Last Supper, REQUIRES you to take our complaints and criticisms seriously. You don’t get to choose whether to fight. You MUST fight alongside us. You MUST support us in our needs and hardships, for our benefit, not yours. We say you’re helping feminists ruin our marriages and your response is “I don’t oppose feminists”?

  247. @Ken

    With due respect God’s word if you’ve not noticed is the tool of feminism. Before you react, I know and agree with whatever rejoinder you will make to my statement. Nevertheless, we are not talking about a small fraction of church women and their clueless husbands lost to the flawed interpretations, interpretations made not in genuine study of the Word, rather in parsing for loopholes that amplify the whispers.

    Feminism infects almost all women in church, and most men in church as well. It has chased away men who would hold frame in its presence as they tired of church being a place to get told they CAN be better if they would just follow the women.

    I appreciate the call to power of the word. I’m suggesting maybe aiming that power very laser like, surgically. Saying generally things like “we are called to _____________” is both true and lacks efficacy because feminist women bask in general and non specific proclamations of Gods power and are capable of turning your words into words that actually encourage them.

    We must consider what they HEAR even beyond choosing carefully what we SAY. Wormwood is a major feminist. He adapts.

  248. Anon says:

    Reading everything that Ken has written and others’ responses to him, I still fail to see whether he has any ‘point’ beyond demonstrating that bashing husbands is the easiest, least controversial, and least courageous action among available choices, so it because the default mechanism.

    When in doubt, bash husbands. Never push back against ‘feminists’ no matter how illogical their behavior.

    Is Ken’s position really anything more than the above bolded text? What is worse is that Lori did not herself require him to bash husbands. This is just what he thinks a ‘good man’ must do (i.e. the path of least resistance and intellectual inquiry).

  249. DeNihilist says:

    And way off topic, but still topical, Matt Walsh bashes SCOTUS on its abort ruling –

    http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/texas-ignore-the-supreme-court-and-enforce-your-abortion-laws-anyway/

  250. jonakc1:

    Most of us know why and constrainedlocus had explained it:

    “My observation is that so few women and wives today even know what they’re doing. Almost like they had no models from which to learn how to do things. Contrary to claims, they don’t perform particularly well at the workplace. They don’t know how to properly clean and maintain a home or a vehicle. Few are actually “awesome with kids”. And the majority don’t even know how to cook nutritious meals and stay fit themselves.”

    Marriage has always been hard; it’s harder now for husbands because he has to pick up and take things on whenever and whatever his wife lacks or hasn’t been taught to do.

    I took on the role of the husband with my eyes wide open and can only depend on God to guide us in our marriage.

  251. If we can’t teach things in balance speaking truth to both sides of the relationship, then we are living in a sorry Christian time.

    When did balance become a virtue to the degree it is now? Good that we had a Savior to brutally die in order that we could have a life of balance…..

    Balance is a word that appears in adverts for products that women generally select for the family. Food, vitamins, self help books about work and life, so forth. Balance is not a virtue by default. Most of the time it means nothing whatsoever.

  252. Pingback: Soaking In Feminism | Spawny's Space

  253. Hmm says:

    A song from a more enlightened age:

    New Rochelle, New Rochelle,
    That’s the place where the mansion will be
    For me and the darling bright young man
    I’ve picked out for marrying me.

    He’ll do well, I can tell,
    So it isn’t a moment too soon
    To plan on my life in New Rochelle,
    The wife of my darling tycoon.

    I’ll be so happy to keep his dinner warm
    While he goes onward and upward;
    Happy to keep his dinner warm
    Till he comes wearily home from downtown.

    I’ll be there waiting until his mind is clear
    While he looks through me, right through me;
    Waiting to say, “Good evening, dear.
    I’m pregnant. What’s new with you from downtown?”

    Oh, to be loved by a man I respect;
    To bask in the glow of his perfectly understandable neglect.
    Oh, to belong in the aura of his frown–darling busy frown
    Such heaven–wearing the wifely uniform
    While he goes onward and upward.
    Happy to keep his dinner warm
    Till he comes wearily home from down town.

    [from “How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying”, Frank Loesser, 1961]

  254. feeriker says:

    “My observation is that so few women and wives today even know what they’re doing. Almost like they had no models from which to learn how to do things.”

    Most American women of the last couple of generations actually have not had any models at all in their lives on how to become a good wife and mother. Their own mothers have been too busy being SIWs to pay any attention to their offspring of either sex (“Hey, I gave birth to them! What, you want me to RAISE them too??!!”) except to remind their daughters of how entitled they are to whatever they want by dint of having a vagina. The idea that they have to contribute anything of lasting value to any kind of relationship, let alone a marriage, induces reactions ranging from incomprehension to sheer horror and revulsion.

  255. The question is not whether it’s true that there are men who should do more to help out around the house. That’s simply a red herring that is always thrown into any discussion about women being bad wives, because such discussion discomfits almost everyone, men and women, feminist and conservative, Christian and heathen. The sooner we can “balance” it with some talk about how men are just as bad (and probably causing women to act badly), the better everyone feels.

    That’s the problem Dalrock is addressing, which Ken has difficulty seeing because it’s the air we all breathe: it’s nearly impossible to address women’s bad behavior, because as soon as you try, it’s as if a bat-signal goes off, alerting White Knights across the land — mostly men — so they can swoop in and put a stop to it. They’ll say they’re not trying to stop it, but only offer balance; but in practice, that means stopping it. We’ve seen it time and again here, how quickly such a discussion can turn to “But-but-but men do it too!”

    You can’t talk about both at once, because wifely rebellion and husbandly neglect are not the same problem, nor is one the cause of the other. So introducing “balance” simply means switching the topic to criticizing men, which is already covered quite well by nearly all churches, TV programs, thousands of web sites, etc.

  256. Anon says:

    Jessica Valenti has really gone insane after hitting the wall :

    http://judgybitch.com/2016/05/30/my-life-as-a-sexobject-by-jessicavalenti-no-shes-not-kidding/

    So much of what she writes now is asserting her own believed attractiveness in the most transparent of post-wall wailing. Nevermind that she is also married.

  257. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    Thank you for replying.

    I would disagree that you did not attack men as you put emphasis on husbands who were sinning by not doing enough housework. I can’t find the Scripture that covers that, so I have to assume it is made up by the spirit of our age instead of God’s Word.

    Telling how many men need to shape up as well does not placate anyone. It only gives those opposing your wife’s message more ammunition and slams the honest hardworking men who end up taking the brunt of that.

    First, how many men really are such slouches? Second, how many of those who are slouches would be impacted even a tiny bit by your arguments that they are slouching?

    I went through hell with my teenage adopted children when they started making up things about me. Many would give me the same kind of advice you did, that I needed to to more. I could do nothing in reality, as they had already made up their minds I was not their father. Don’t be like those who made my parenting job even harder during that time by undercutting a God-appointed role!

    I hear husbands cut down all the time for not doing enough. Some husbands probably aren’t doing enough, but little of that lack is in the areas most proclaiming it think. How can Christian husbands lead their families with all the degrading messaging? Have you considered that impact of your post?

    ====

    Robert,

    I have been around here almost that long (4 years) most likely. (I didn’t track when I started.) This name is new, but I have been at the end of my own amount of name calling. I don’t necessarily like it, but I don’t shy away from it and I quickly learned I should either leave or get a thicker skin.

    I am surprised you didn’t learn that if you have been around so long.

    ====

    Kind of to both Robert and Ken: Those on our side should not shoot at those of us trying to do a job and then gripe if we start shooting back. Realize this culture is far whacked out blaming men. Even noting men’s foibles is not productive in many situations, especially something like the housework issue noted in the OP.

    It reminds me at the number of sermons and shows that complain about fathers being workaholics, but then demanding that a father take care of his family financially. Idiotic to say the least!

    This is the clip I got to see at church on Father’s day. Talk about driving a desire for me to not attend.

    And some wonder why men get fed up with this stuff.

  258. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    I should also note that Jesus got quite hostile at some who pushed a false agenda, both on this earth and in the letters to the churches in the Book of Revelation. The “meek and mild” example you give is not the only side of Him.

  259. feeriker says:

    It reminds me at the number of sermons and shows that complain about fathers being workaholics, but then demanding that a father take care of his family financially. Idiotic to say the least!

    Fried ice: even some men demand it.

  260. mrteebs says:

    Balance requires equal and opposing forces. The problem with emphasizing “balance” at this stage in the progression is that it completely ignores this reality: 98% of the weight has already shifted been shifted to favor women and shield them from responsibility / consequences.

    This is why Ken is seeing such a visceral reaction.

    The men here are calling for restoration. A “balanced” message is not going to restore anything. The scale is already pinned in one direction and the needle is bent. Adding exactly 22 grams to each side does nothing more than preserve status quo. If we want to restore balance to an unbalanced system, by definition we must add UNEQUAL weight to each side. The whole idea is to start removing weight from one side and redistributing until biblical equilibrium has been restored. This is why the idea of a balanced message sounds good on paper but is futile in practice for the situation at-hand.

  261. Linx says:

    @ Ken  
    1 Timothy 3
    “1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseera must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,b sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.”

    Verse 4 “He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,”

    Each man manages his household in accordance with the Word of God and as he sees necessary. So the question to you is this. Where in scripture is it wrong [sinful] for a husband not to do house work?

    @ Daily Llama
    “Done! To the tune of 7 billion and growing….”

    Good! Unless you think it is a bad thing? In that case you better take it up with God who has been giving that life.

  262. They Call Me Tom says:

    “I am sure those of you who allow no bitch in a woman are always just and right. I am far less tolerant of it now than I was in the past (though not much even then), but expecting it to never be present is expecting a wife to be perfect. No perfect wives on this earth guys. Please do stay single if you are that way and expect perfection.

    I despise bad attitudes, but I despise a lot of things that happen and griping about it won’t cause long term success.” -Billy S

    No one expects perfect people. Just people who hold themselves to at least the same standard that they hold others to. I try to hold myself to twice the standard I hold others to, just to play it safe. If a woman cannot live to half the standard that she holds others to… also best to stay single than to marry her.

    Also, nothing wrong with a woman (or a man) getting frustrated and acting out, it’s when there is no regret for having done so that it is intolerable in a spouse.

  263. Dale says:

    @feeriker

    > THE consumate professional “Discontentment Consultant.” No way was I gonna eat sammiches prepared by THAT!

    Your description is so sad. I thank God I do not have a lazy, selfish wife.

    @Dave
    >If a wife is useless in making my life easier, what is the point of marrying her?

    Excellent question. A wife of noble character, who can find? Who indeed. If you do find one, she is worth far more than rubies.

    Kathrine and Dave
    >Still inexcusable. How often do you act bitchy towards someone you truly respect (e.g. your boss), even when they’ve done something to make you feel bitchy?

    Actually, it seems somewhat common for people to treat their spouse far worse than their boss. This is really strange, given that your boss can fire you tomorrow, but a marriage is “supposed” to be for 50 years. (insert laugh-track here)

  264. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Regarding Daily Llama’s posted article about singles mothers and the village, it has a very telling author’s bio:

    Hey! I’m Beth Berry, writer, adventurer, life coach, mother of four daughters and hopelessly hopeful human.

    Does Ms. Berry earn a living as a “writer”?

    Does Ms. Berry earn a living as an “adventurer”?

    And WTF is a “life coach”? Sounds like one of those useless “professions” that women both “work” at and patronize.

    Ms. Berry is also a “mother of four daughters.” I searched her site, but found no mention of a husband or father. I saw her in a couple of photos with a man. If he is her husband, the father of her daughters, why doesn’t she discuss him?

    Ms. Berry talks a lot about herself, and being a mother, and her daughters, but no mention of this unknown man in the photos. Does she not view him as particularly important? Maybe he’s just a “boyfriend” or “friend,” unrelated to her daughters?

  265. Ken says:

    Dalrock and group,

    Thanks for the comments, many hard to hear and understand at first, but I can see much better how the post left way too many inferences that I never intended. Just poorly thought out with a different goal in mind. I am working on a rewrite for future readers and sorry for missing the initial opportunity. May the Lord gives us many more to impact marriages and the Kingdom.

    Thanks for challenging me and sticking with me.

    ken

  266. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Ever notice that so many thriller novels, though written by men, feature women in the lead roles of FBI agent, CIA agent, attorney, police captain, or whatever else. Women who are super tough, smart, brave, resourceful, and successful.

    I never read anything by David Balducci, but I found a used copy of his book, Total Control. I checked its description on Amazon, to see if it was worth reading. Here is the description:

    Sydney Archer is a corporate lawyer working to finalize a deal between Triton Global and Cybercom that will revolutionize the use of the Internet. That deal is about to go terribly wrong. Sydney’s world is rocked when the plane her husband, Jason, is supposed to be on crashes, killing everyone on board. Sabotage is suspected, and the FBI is called in. Jason calls Sydney hours after the crash, very much alive, making him the prime suspect. The Cybercom deal hangs in the balance while Sydney outfoxes the FBI, the hired killers, and the Triton Global bad guys

    Can’t watch modern movies or TV shows. Can’t read modern thrillers either. Everywhere I turn, “entertainment” is full of kick-ass women outsmarting and out-fighting men.

  267. Joker says:

    Oscar´s video: I love the moment when the blue haired fashion designer makes a dress and you can see the thin mannequin in the background. Would it be that the “fat is pretty” people still understand that to sell clothes you need thin models?
    It would be interesting to wait a few years and make a memory video of the healthy at each size activists with the ages of death. Unluckily, only the next generation will be able to benefit from this.

  268. Linx says:

    @Ken
    “Thanks for challenging me and sticking with me.”

    Proverbs 27:6 “Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.”

  269. Dave says:

    @feeriker:

    Most American women of the last couple of generations actually have not had any models at all in their lives on how to become a good wife and mother.

    This has always been my argument too, that, ultimately, the typical American woman is a victim of sorts; she has been set up to fail as a wife and a mother, even before she starts kindergarten. A lot of women having kids today in America are abusing their kids without even knowing it. Or, how else do you describe the behavior of a parent who religiously raises their kids to fail in life and in relationships?

  270. thedeti says:

    @ Cail:

    “They’ll say they’re not trying to stop it, but only offer balance; but in practice, that means stopping it. We’ve seen it time and again here, how quickly such a discussion can turn to “But-but-but men do it too!” ”

    A couple of things about the “Men Do It Too!” complaint.

    1) It affirms the original argument. The shout of “Men do it too!” is an acknowledgment that the original argument about women’s bad behavior is valid, accurate, and true. It simply attempts to deflect attention from the valid, accurate and true observation about women’s bad behavior to the concomitant bad behavior of men. The attempt is to justify, defend and excuse the female bad behavior with an “everyone does it” refrain, which of course is no justification or defense.

    2) It is irrelevant. All that matters for the purposes of discussion is whether women engage in the conduct. It does not matter one bit that men do it too or have done it too or have a propensity to do it, whatever “it” happens to be.

  271. Lost Patrol says:

    It takes some time to follow a thread like this and really digest what you’re learning, but absolutely fascinating and worth the effort.

    I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance on how things got this bad seemingly just in my lifetime; but also obviously from the very beginning.

    Can’t picture my grandfather playing along with any of it. I knew his wife (my grandmother), his daughters (my aunts), and am fairly certain that if any feminism appeared in his vicinity it had an extremely short life span. Of course I wasn’t there all the time, but what I saw between him and now makes me and my father (his son) the guilty parties. We let this happen in a few short decades. But my grandfather was a living participant during first wave feminism. Maybe he let something slide there.

    On the other hand we have Eve in the garden. Duly constituted authority – The Creator of the Universe and everything contained therein – gives her wide latitude, with a boundary. Along comes serpent (whatever that looked like shortly before being consigned to go on his belly in the dust) and says something different from duly constituted authority. SHE GOES WITH THAT!

    I have seen this behavior from every woman I have ever known or with whom I’ve even been marginally acquainted.

    Adam looks at this and says to himself this will be easier IF I JUST GO ALONG WITH HER rather than try to force some kind of correction or criticism here.

    It appears as though everyone is guilty.

  272. DeNihilist says:

    RPL, when I first started my business I took a couple of night school courses. One of the things that was pointed out was that in most families, it is the woman who has the final say about design elements. So engage the husband, but sell to the wife.

    This is Hollyweirds attempt at that strategy. They think if they put these kick ass women in male parts they will get more female viewers. The NFL is on board too. Pink for a month?

    Anywho, I think that the new ghostbrassiers is gonna sink like an anchor, and then these twits may get the message. But I highly doubt it.

  273. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    I am sure a rewrite will not please all here, but you do seem to have tapped into at least some of the points. It truly is a “red pill” at times.

  274. PuffyJacket says:

    Ken,

    Herein lies the wrong thinking of the group, that somehow I intended to take on the ardent feminists.

    Your wife courageously pushed a highly, highly anti-feminist position. But you turtled in fear when the first feminist punches came back your way.

    This has nothing to do with you taking a “fair and balanced” position (laughable, really), and everything to do with your cowardice as a man.

    No one here is fooled by your pathetic behavior.

  275. Scott says:

    LP-

    It takes some time to follow a thread like this and really digest what you’re learning, but absolutely fascinating and worth the effort.

    I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance on how things got this bad seemingly just in my lifetime; but also obviously from the very beginning.

    Can’t picture my grandfather playing along with any of it. I knew his wife (my grandmother), his daughters (my aunts), and am fairly certain that if any feminism appeared in his vicinity it had an extremely short life span. Of course I wasn’t there all the time, but what I saw between him and now makes me and my father (his son) the guilty parties. We let this happen in a few short decades. But my grandfather was a living participant during first wave feminism. Maybe he let something slide there.

    On the other hand we have Eve in the garden. Duly constituted authority – The Creator of the Universe and everything contained therein – gives her wide latitude, with a boundary. Along comes serpent (whatever that looked like shortly before being consigned to go on his belly in the dust) and says something different from duly constituted authority. SHE GOES WITH THAT!

    I have seen this behavior from every woman I have ever known or with whom I’ve even been marginally acquainted.

    Adam looks at this and says to himself this will be easier IF I JUST GO ALONG WITH HER rather than try to force some kind of correction or criticism here.

    I have a sense that collectively we owe our sons an apology for what we are handing them.

    It appears as though everyone is guilty.

  276. PuffyJacket says:

    Anon,

    When in doubt, bash husbands. Never push back against ‘feminists’ no matter how illogical their behavior.

    Yes, Ken’s behavior exactly matches that of the typical cuckservative. Too cowardly to fight back against feminism, too dumb to understand how.

  277. Dalrock says:

    @Ken

    Thanks for the comments, many hard to hear and understand at first, but I can see much better how the post left way too many inferences that I never intended. Just poorly thought out with a different goal in mind. I am working on a rewrite for future readers and sorry for missing the initial opportunity. May the Lord gives us many more to impact marriages and the Kingdom.

    Thanks for challenging me and sticking with me.

    Thank you Ken for engaging in the discussion and hearing us out.

  278. Dalrock says:

    @Scott

    I have a sense that collectively we owe our sons an apology for what we are handing them.

    It appears as though everyone is guilty.

    Agreed.

  279. @ken: “If we can’t teach things in balance speaking truth to both sides of the relationship, then we are living in a sorry Christian time.”

    Yes we are and your attempt at “balance” is like walking into an AA meeting with a 6 pack and shooters and extolling the virtues of alcohol. Come now! There are TWO sides to every issue after all.

    The problem is we are all fish, swimming in a sea of feminism and female entitlement.

    What “balance” do you want when feminism has taken over every social institution- including the churches? When little girls are told from birth they are special princesses and little boys are told they are defective. When little boys are drugged into compliance and little girls are celebrated for acting masculine. When older girls are treated like Queens for a few years becuase men find them sexually attractive AND they have no boundaries, the result is sluttery on a level we have not seen since Soddom. We live in a time when transgenders display their unique brand of sexually dysphoric mental illness to the cheering masses. When Gay men parade around naked and exchange sex in public. When any man who speaks up is ostracized and denied employment because he is a “hater.” When ANY woman can make a phone call and imprison her husband on her word alone. When any woman can leave her husband and rip his heart out through his wallet. When women file 80% of divorces and are cheered on by society. When girls today have an n count of 100 or more. When girls can literally slut it up with multiple guys in one night and then decide, weeks later, that one of the men “raped” her even though she sent him countless text messages begging him to do it again.

    ALL the power has been given to women and taken from men- and you STILL think “balance” is the right solution?

    Why is it men who always have to meet them halfway?

    To paraphrase Nietsche: You may not be interested in feminism- but feminism is interested in you.

  280. Gunner Q says:

    Lost Patrol @ 8:54 am:
    “It takes some time to follow a thread like this and really digest what you’re learning, but absolutely fascinating and worth the effort.

    I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance on how things got this bad seemingly just in my lifetime; but also obviously from the very beginning.”

    Don’t be too hard on yourself. We’re all fallen to begin with and the speed at which the West fell is unprecedented in history. They say we’re always one generation away from being cavemen but who knew our lifetime would be the proof of it?

    You woke up. You swim against the tide. Nobody can do better than that and I personally believe the Church’s finest hour is at hand.

  281. sipcode says:

    Witchcraft: It’s what women do.

    I will explain in a sec.

    First, I am impressed with what I read in this post and by those who comment. We are in a time when being nice in confrontation usually does not work for rebellion has been given full license. It has become time to get angry. We may have to crack the whip, to turn over the tables, and cast out the money changers.

    To hell with being nice. Be good.

    Go with the flow? Hell no.

    I appreciate that Ken finally is willing to take a closer look. But it is not simply rephrasing, for that is all fems do when they hit a dead end. It is a heart change. I have my doubts.

    Temptation will always be with us. But witchcraft began when Eve reached for the apple. It is a seed in women – Gen 3:16. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. We have hugely underestimated how that rebellion has been fostered from woman to woman and woman to man. Every man here has more to learn about how that witchcraft has infiltrated him. Me included.

    Witchcraft. It is what women do.

    Certainly God has given a method to squelch that rebellion, that witchcraft. Submission. It is not easy to do. It does start in the heart. And the first and foremost way that a woman submits to God is by submitting to her husband (and a spirit of submission to men in general). Understanding that principle precedes any conversation, such as housework, about marriage.

  282. PuffyJacket says:

    Yes we are and your attempt at “balance” is like walking into an AA meeting with a 6 pack and shooters and extolling the virtues of alcohol.

    A “balanced” discussion would include at least a 50% push-back against feminism. The actual push-back delivered by Ken was closer to 0% against feminism, and 100% against men.

    Much like how cuckservatives “fight” single motherhood with CS slavery and jail time for men, then watch in bewilderment as out of wedlock births sky-rocket.

  283. feeriker says:

    Hey! I’m Beth Berry, writer, adventurer, life coach, mother of four daughters and hopelessly hopeful human.

    “Life Coach:” New Age Feminese for a talentless, entitled bimbette without any experience with or ability to live in and cope with life in the real world who seeks to bamboozle other equally talentless, lost, purposeless SWPL bimbettes who have too much (unearned) money to spend and too much time on their hands by transferring their own neuroses to others.

    Whenever you run into a woman (it’s ALWAYS a woman) who calls herself a “life coach,” WALK AWAY and don’t look back. This goes for both men and women. Guys, you don’t EVEN want to be romantically involved with such a FUBAR creature. Ladies, following the advice of women like this will lead you from sheer unhappiness into the very pits of hell itself!

  284. This story has gone mainstream!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3658115/Blogger-blasted-sharing-outdated-advice-happy-marriage.html

    I think Ken was trying to shield his wife from the feminist backlash. Still White Knighting and disgusting but at least I understand his perspective now.

    Given the source of this article, the comments section is interesting. The hysterical feminists are amusing while the calm, reasoned others are supporting Lori. I would have expected a very different comment section from the daily mail and it is encouraging.

  285. We changed the post ~
    http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2016/06/going-viral-virus-of-unmet-expectations.html

    I want you all to know that Ken is the most generous servant I have ever met. He will do anything for anyone who asks. He is a pleaser at heart, therefore, the post that have caused so much angst among all of you. He wants me to help him ask me to help him to do more since he is so used to doing everything for himself, but I do want to serve him more. It has all been a growing process for both of us as I am sure it is for all of you.

    Blessings,
    Lori

  286. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ken

    All right! I am encouraged!

    Though, I must warn you that if you have really “got” it, you must gird yourself because once you have seen it in yourself you will see it in so many others. Jesus said, “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” That teaching is often incoherently invoked as a judgment against judgment, but–like so many things Christ taught–it is bigger than just one application. It is also a truth.

    In this particular case it is easy to test: Try to find a sermon on the role of wives working in the homes which does not include the false balances of weak men. It should be simple to do. Our examples in the Bible give no caveats or redirections about bad men when writing to the churches on the roles of women, yet the vast majority of our modern sermons do.

    @Scott

    I have a sense that collectively we owe our sons an apology for what we are handing them.

    It appears as though everyone is guilty.

    I don’t agree with the sentiment expressed here. Privately, for the things we have done individually, we owe apology. But the underlying assumptions in your quote not only pessimistic and self-centered: It’s one of those “not even wrong” things which to explain and argue point by point would take ten or more paragraphs because those assumptions and its worldview are skewed. Are you party to my sins, or Dalrock’s sins or Oscar’s sins, or…There is a way out. How great is repentance and forgiveness!

    I know that spiritually and Biblically I am handing my son a better and clearer view of life under God’s easy yoke than that which was handed to me. I can’t do anything about the state of the world, or the collective sins of others. I can’t even do anything about the things for which my father might want to apologize to me except to extend him the same forgiveness which is offered me, and which I offer, and teach, my son.

    The Parable of the Talents was brought up earlier. Suppose forgiveness is one of those talents. If we are investing it, and if that investment is blessed with a return, then for what should there be apology? My dad is not perfect, but he invested in me and I have seen a return on that investment. And I am doing the best I can to re-invest the talents grown for me forward for my children. There is nothing else to be done right here and now. If we repent and invest our talents, digging them up if need be, God will receive us through Christ and His forgiveness.

  287. Scott says:

    Cane-

    Yes, agreed. I can no more be held accountable for the way you have raised your children than I am entitled to your weekly earnings.

    I think what I meant when I wrote “I have a sense” was in the same way God held His people accountable when they needed to, as a society turn from their wicked ways.

    We need to do this. Now, as you are aware, the big sticking point I keep exploring on my blog from time to time is, is who “we” are in that sentiment.

  288. sipcode says:

    Lost Patrol:
    The rope was slipping in our hands long before even your grandfather.

    “From all that I had read of History and Government, of human Life and manners, I had drawn this Conclusion, that the manners of Women were the most infallible Barometer, to ascertain the degree of Morality and Virtue in a Nation. All that I have since read and all the observations I have made in different Nations, have confirmed me in this opinion. The Manners of Women, are the surest Criterion by which to determine whether a Republican Government is practicable, in a Nation or not. The Jews, the Greeks, the Romans, the Swiss, the Dutch, all lost their public Spirit, their Republican Principles and habits, and their Republican Forms of Government, when they lost the Modesty and Domestic Virtues of their Women.”

    John Adams June 2, 1778

    It was lost BEFORE THE CONSTITUTION WAS SIGNED. Read about Martha Adams, maybe the original modern US feminist. Why would John Adams be provoked to comment on this if he was not seeing it first hand? By 1805 the Congregationalist churches of New England were run by women. This has been long coming. And read about daughters in the OT prophets. But it is getting so ridiculous that many are now seeing it.

    BTW: Modesty means quiet, chaste, behaved, etc. not primarily clothing like I’ve found so many to think.

  289. Cane Caldo says:

    @Scott

    than I am entitled to your weekly earnings.

    They’re only good for a laugh anyways.

  290. Daily Llama says:

    “I want you all to know that Ken is the most generous servant I have ever met. He will do anything for anyone who asks. He is a pleaser at heart, therefore, the post that have caused so much angst among all of you”

    You are lucky Lori to have the company of such a good person. In our crass, selfish, materialistic, profit and pleasure driven “culture” such good-hearted people are rare. I would love to know more people like Ken and yourself.

  291. iamadamalan says:

    @cane

    When Judah returned from the Babylonian captivity to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, they cried out in repentance for the sins of their forefathers that drove them into captivity.

    So it is appropriate we do likewise.

  292. BillyS says:

    Lori,

    Being a servant has merit in many situations, but it is quite dangerous for anyone who takes an active part in the modern culture wars. You two are involved in those whether it was your intention or not.

    Ken may need to learn more about standing strong in these cases. I know I have toned my own tendency down to try to cover ALL the details and now try to focus more on those that are the most important in the current discussion.

  293. BillyS says:

    Scott and Cane,

    Daniel did repent on behalf of his people, when he himself had not been part of the problems, so that precedent is there.

  294. sipcode says:

    Daily Llama

    Obedience is better than sacrifice. The church is full of people visibly sacrificing on the outside and disobedient on the inside. It does not matter how giving or sacrificial anyone is. “If you love me keep my commandments” also means ‘protect the truth of My word.’ And that is what most have been doing here. I suspect we all hope the best for Ken but he has to stick to the word.

  295. Lost Patrol says:

    Scott says: “I have a sense that collectively we owe our sons an apology for what we are handing them.”

    I understand the logic of what Cane Caldo objects to about this sentiment, but on a personal level this is poignant. I believe I have taught my sons some worthwhile things, but the nitty gritty of what we are talking about is that they did not see appropriate relationships between women and men. Ignorance was not bliss. I actually am on the hook for that, but as Gunner Q says I did wake up. At least that is now a fact, so – onward.

    sipcode says: “The Jews, the Greeks, the Romans, the Swiss, the Dutch, all lost their public Spirit, their Republican Principles and habits, and their Republican Forms of Government, when they lost the Modesty and Domestic Virtues of their Women.”

    John Adams June 2, 1778

    It was lost BEFORE THE CONSTITUTION WAS SIGNED.”

    Sobering.

  296. Gunner Q says:

    You can go all the way to Eden to find where America “first” went wrong. God Himself did no better at founding a nation with Israel; this is profusely documented in Exodus and Numbers. Feminism is a permanent part of our fallen natures, not a cabal of Pod People. I daresay every generation has had to confront original sin in one form or another.

  297. Ken says:

    @ Cane To be clear, all I “get” at this point is that my words could be viewed in an unintended way which you and Dalrock pointed out. I am not able to some of the message here and perhaps it is the tone of some that is inacceotable and unchristian.

    The fact is that the minister and counselor must be able to speak the truth to the loving servant husband and submissive wife in the same message without fear of each party looking at the other to first do their part. The husband as leader is tempered by “what type of leader he must be.” This fear that a wife will always point to her husband’s responsibility before working on her own issues has some basis in truth, but my Bible has the truths side by side.

    The life of Christ is our example, not his present state of glorification. Let’s not confuse the two in our leadership approach and make no apologies for serving our families well in all areas.The role of a wife is helper to her man, but as one well said, “it’s all the husband’s work” as he insures his family is well cared for under his leadership, the kingdom advanced and the Lord is glorified.

  298. Ken says:

    @ group
    I make no apologies for being built to serve, yet my wife and famiky know I have no issues leading and do it well. Let’s not confuse a husband putting his own dishes in the dishwasher or ironing, etc. with any leadership deficit, especially when when married to a wife who has been regularly sick.

    I am happy to tell the lazy husband who enjoys his wife working outsude the home to help with housework as he has already upset God’s design; without fearing the exhortation might give a wife unintended whispers.She is going to find whatever whispers she wants so long as she is not surrendered to God’s will for her life.

    If I have been accused of anything it is thst I am too strong in my leadership. Sure it took a 7 years to figure out what was happening in my marriage and an additional 13 to find it where I wanted it to be, but we all have our different journeys with different wives to lead. It was not that this journey did not have it high points and good things… just not where the Lord wants marriage to be.

    On this site I am some soft wimp of a man, and on the hater’s sites, I control and dominate my wife and make her write what she writes. A strange world we live in that people who know little about you can hide behind their monikers and throw out accusations because it suits their whim or attack. Then excuse their sins by saying, “that’s social media.” I beg to differ… it’s just sin.

  299. Linx says:

    @Ken
    “On this site I am some soft wimp of a man,and on the hater’s sites, I control and dominate my wife and make her write what she writes.”

    Wrong. What we here highlighted was the fact that the article was written from a position of appeasement. You equated a man not doing housework with being sinful and interfering in another husbands God given responsibility and right to management of his house. You did not and have have not provided any Scripture for your assertions. All you are doing is making excuses for your sin saying ” my words could be viewed in an unintended”.
    I beg to differ….it’s just sin.

  300. Gunner Q says:

    “If I have been accused of anything it is that I am too strong in my leadership.”

    I feel your pain. People keep accusing me of being too sexy.

  301. sipcode says:

    Some people don’t want to get it right. They just want to be right.

    My doubts are proven with repeated responses here from Ken. Essentially he holds on to being right, to being his own god, rather than getting it right.

    Some evidence:
    He has had several posts and comments on Lori’s blog that reveal his own ‘bible.’ Even Lori admitted to one commenter that was correcting her that she had had originally written it scripturally but Ken had her change it. The issue seems to always revolve around the wife speaking up when she thinks she should not obey her husband. In short, the wife can reserve the right for the last word. She can reserve the right to be in control in the final analysis. She determines when to obey. She is her own god. (This reservation is a Pandora’s Box for what the wife ‘thinks’ instantly becomes ‘wants.’ And the church loves this thinking because it can then be its own god, too.)

    Quotes of Ken:

    “one truth is out of its tension against another”

    “walk in the Spirit of Truth, and not ‘the letter of the law’” (classic fem – truth can’t be found)

    “Note that Jesus’ request was even wrong,” (ah, so I’m to doubt Him sometimes?)

    “if she knows …if she feels” (ie: she’s the one in charge)

    “but those who have boxed in submission to mean that a wife ALWAYS obeys her husband, as it says “in everything” and never with questioning him on the matter, you have fallen off the horse of truth”

    “If your heart’s desire is to please God in everything, then indeed you will desire to also submit to your husband in everything” (well he got this right but I wish he would make up his mind; he’s confusing me)

    “Truth stay in balance” (With what? Non-truth?)

    “One truth becomes disproportional to another truth”

    This is Ken. This is what Ken ultimately stands for. The elusive god. The god that can be found nowhere.

    BTW: Ever notice how he takes 10x the words to explain his position, just like an unsubmissive wife?

  302. Ken, the point isn’t that you are or aren’t a wimp. The point is that, when women got angry at being called out for rebellious behavior, your instinct was to step in and say, “Look, we all know the real culprit here is the lazy, neglectful husbands who are causing their wives to act this way, so let’s talk about that instead.” Now, maybe you did this to protect your wife from attack, which seems noble enough. That’s not the point. You aren’t the point, except as one of many examples of how deeply ingrained this problem is even in conservative Christian circles.

    The point is that instinct to always, always, always shift the responsbility for anything bad women do onto men. It’s not just you, it’s everyone, and that’s what’s worth talking about, because it makes it virtually impossible to address the problem of feral women and wifely rebellion. As soon as someone tries — even a woman teaching women who are voluntarily coming to her for advice — someone, often a conservative-leaning Christian man, steps in to say, “Aw, let’s not pick on the poor girls now. How about those dirty boys, huh?”

    I think that instinct is partly inherent — women are the weaker sex, so we naturally want to protect them — but it’s been put into overdrive by the female imperative that we’ve all been raised in. That’s brought us to the point where women can be completely feral, and we just try to adjust the system to accommodate them and clean up after them. That’s the outcome feminists wanted. Maybe Christians didn’t want it, but as long as they keep women on pedestals and shift the responsibility for their behavior to men, they’re right there helping the feminists create it.

  303. sipcode says:

    It is gratifying to see so many men get the problem in the church, but as we know it has a long way to go to fully liberate. I see it nowhere in my fairly extensive circles and only find it very rarely on line, like here.

    I recently read a book about marriage by one of the biggest names in the church who is part of the Complementarianism cult and it was a pathetic loss on marriage. I could not get angry with him like I have with some authors. I hurt for him because I could tell he knew he was missing something and was not having an intimate [non-sexual] relationship with his wife. In short, he did not know her after decades. This after he took specific time off to ‘minister’ to her.

    This is a disease in the church. Thanks for hitting this head on, like God calls men.

  304. Wraith says:

    @Ken
    “I am happy to tell the lazy husband who enjoys his wife working outside the home to help with housework as he has already upset God’s design…”

    As a fairly recent red pill convert trying to clean up a blue pill marriage, I myself have been pondering this issue. When we are out of compliance with God’s Will, what is the solution? Do we push further away or pull closer? In your example, the problem is the wife (regardless of motivation) taking on some of the masculine role and your prescription is for the husband to take on more of the feminine role to compensate. This, while it may be a way to get the chores done, is moving farther away from God’s ideal instead of closer to it. This is focusing on jobs (actions) rather than roles (attitude or “the heart”). Wouldn’t the proper teaching to this “lazy husband” be to reaffirm that God has designed him to work outside the home and his wife to work inside it? A husband wanting his wife to focus on outside work is no less of a sin than the wife herself wanting to focus on outside work. Telling the husband that, in effect, because he wants her do do some of his “job”, he needs to do some of her “job” is merely knocking down symptoms instead of treating the disease (diminution, or outright denial of God ordained sex roles in marriage). But maybe I’m missing something?….Thoughts anyone?

  305. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    I am not able to some of the message here and perhaps it is the tone of some that is inacceotable and unchristian.

    Have you read how Jesus treated those He drove out of the Temple? How about when He called Peter “satan”? Or how it talks to some of the churches in the Book of Revelation? Are you the one to tell Him He is not acting in a “Christian” manner?

    Some here do go to the extreme, but even they have a whole lot of truth. Be very watchful you don’t substitute the spirit of our age for the truth in the Scriptures. God judged many things quite harshly, including in the NT.

    I would also ask how many of those slacker men do you think really exist? How many will ever read what you wrote?

    Contrast that with how many women will use what you write to magnify the perceived slackness of their husbands, when no such thing really exists. How many men are getting no credit in their wife’s eyes for busting their rears to provide?

    I would argue the latter is far more common than the former. Why do you have to insult all men in the guise of slamming slackers?

    I have noticed that some men messed up their own lives in the past and project that onto all others. You should be very careful of doing that if it is the case.

    I would note in closing that some men have taken to slacking because their wives are bitchy. I know I lose my motivation to do good things for my wife when she gets in a bitchy mood. Just blaming slacking men is ignoring a huge part of most situations.

    Add to this the fact that such husbands were usually that way before marriage. Then it is an issue of her lack of discernment. I am at fault if I buy a car actively leaking oil during a test drive, as an example. Women often make their own bed and then whine that it is not nice. They would do much better if they either picked better. Or they gave their prime years to bad boys and then expect perfection from the beta schlub that got their remains.

  306. Miguel says:

    Dalrock, you should be a pastor.

  307. feeriker says:

    “one truth is out of its tension against another”

    “One truth becomes disproportional to another truth.”

    I do hope Ken will do us the favor of explaining these assertions.

  308. Belldandy says:

    Would love your thoughts on this:

    A letter to … my wife, who won’t get a job while I work myself to death

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jul/02/a-letter-to-my-wife-who-wont-get-a-job-while-i-work-myself-to-death

  309. justdoit says:

    @Annie engages in lots of false equivalences

    >>7. Did you invent those appliances yourself? If not, it’s absolutely irrelevant who did invent them, it does not give you the right to expect women to pick your mess.

    Women get as a group get enormous privilege as a credit for all childbearing of all women over all time. Why should men not get credit for all that men have invented and manufactured over time? Your equivalence is completely false.

    Then of course there is the the red herring that a woman’s housework mainly consist of undoing some mess that men made/ That is rubbish.

    For many years men shrugged and took the high road when women traded in false equivalences. That was a major mistake. We have to push back, every time and all the time.

  310. justdoit says:

    Another false equivalency: Feminist in effect advocate that just because a woman works in an office, her job is equivalent to the job of any man that works in an office.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. For a man in that same office to become your husband, you know damned well that you will demand that he has to be better than you. In the office, outside the office, better at anything except at child-bearing, which is and ALWAYS has been your bastion and source of IMMENSE privilege.

    So, no, it is not reasonable that you demand you husband does your housework, in addition to his job and his OTHER housework and outwork (new terminology) and maintenance work at home.

    Men should start complaining about how all their outwork is invisible. Take another page from the feminist playbook.

  311. Anonymous Reader says:

    GunnerQ
    People keep accusing me of being too sexy.

    Too sexy for your shirt. I’m sure.

  312. Ken says:

    @ Billy It’s been a long couple weeks, but let me give you a few responses to your comments:

    I have noticed that some men messed up their own lives in the past and project that onto all others. You should be very careful of doing that if it is the case.

    Yes, I have wondered if that is not what is happening some here on this site. It is hosted and anchored by some godly men championing the God given masculine role, but then it attracts these men you speak of, who project their own past and current circumstances, reading into things that are not said, because it fits their mindset and anger.

    I on the other-hand have a wonderful godly wife and kids, and it took some years to lead my wife into accepting and the championing her Biblical role. This success was with the Lord’s help and my persistent and loving requests for accountability to the Word and “doing all things Christian in our home.”

    I am OK with being taken to task for my seeming “throwing men under the bus” in my post, and yet I am not OK with stupid and inaccurate personal accusations when my life and body of work far outshines my accusers lives and their false accusations. But I have to remember that some may be trolls in disguise. Maybe I should not expect more from this group than the left wing feminists who accuse me of controlling my wife so that she would write the things she writes.

    You write: Have you read how Jesus treated those He drove out of the Temple? How about when He called Peter “satan”? Or how it talks to some of the churches in the Book of Revelation? Are you the one to tell Him He is not acting in a “Christian” manner?

    Here is the extreme view you postulate. It matches well with those who believe that the Bible has “lots” of women leaders. Nothing in either case could be further from the truth. The few places where Christ is angry do not support an angry or nasty response from a blogger. The scriptures are clear on the subject:

    “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.” (Eph. 4:29) Along with many more verses on this important subject.

    Our example as a husband is the suffering servant, Christ Jesus, not the gloried Christ sitting on his throne of glory. How do I know this? Because God tells us that our model for being a husband is “as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her” (Eph 5:25)

    I can’t accept as God’s design that the husband is sitting on the throne of the marriage, unless a wife so chooses to put him there. Our example of Christ is the earthly example, and he was no pushover, and he spoke stern words at times, but rarely if ever towards his disciples. He was indeed a suffering servant and rejected of men. Show me how many times he spoke harshly to his disciples or put them down or said nasty things to them. Now review some of the comments here and tell me they are in keeping with his life and commands, especially when dealing with fellow believers.

    This is obviously a hot issue and I can’t see the extreme position of many here that somehow our God given roles protects a Christian husband from a responsibility to accurately determine if he should be helping more in the home. I do agree with you that it is only few Christian men who I know who do not do more than their far share of everything; work, home work and kids, but my post was intended to teach that it should make little difference to the Christian wife if her husband is or is not helping enough as the prescription for the solution is both the same, “win him without a word.”

    It was in making this point I used the illustration of the disobedient husband, thinking it took away any wife’s excuse, but this group begged to differ. Then it never crossed my mind the sensitivity of the Christian husband of feeling thrown under the bus. It wasn’t in my mind at the time, but I can see the valid points here on the subject and will try to do better as I wade through this seeming quagmire of proclaiming freely all of God’s Word, with both God’s prescription for the sacrificing servant leader of a husband and the husband who is to be “head” and rule and manage his home well. These two things are not mutually exclusive, and we should be able to teach both loving sacrificial leadership and wifely submission in the same post if God can do it in the same verses, even knowing some women may use the husband’s perceived faults to excuse her own lack of obedience. Those who choose to be disobedient will find their excuses and our removing talk of the husband’s responsibility will do little to influence their heart conditon.

    There is a legit fear that the Christian women is constantly looking to her husband to shape up, and show her love as Christ commands him, but on her terms, her needs and her expectations, before she will respect, submit and love; instead of resting securely in the promises of God and her husband’s role to lovingly lead her. That was our struggle for too many years. I was leading in moving the marriage forward to God’s ideals, but all my wife could focus upon was my responsibilities, my faults and what she perceived were deficits. I had to choose to try to remove my most glaring sins and issues to earn an audience with her in my requests to do all things Christian. She had to be shown by me, and the Spirit, that it was her warped view of her needs, her need to be right, which trumped God’s Word, and was the cause of our inability to fully bond as one. I succeeded in my journey, yet I fear some on this site are still dealing with their “bitchy wives” then projecting that anger onto others. Perhaps they would do well to ask questions of those who have succeeded in this arduous process instead of casting stones and anger over their plight. To be Christian men who never quit, but keep loving their wives with sacrificial love until such time as God chooses to open her eyes and heart to the loving leadership of her husband.

    If a husband here thinks he will get a backbone and stand up to his wife’s rebellion and everything will just fall into place, he needs to think again. For some this may indeed be the prescription, and it is a place to start, but if you are married to a strong willed woman, or one with a poor role model of what a godly submissive wife looks like, the spiritual battle to overome the strongholds may be a long one. So settle in and accept the journey God has for you. This journey often takes years, and one can never lose hope, but instead determine in their own heart that they will do “all things Christian” towards their wife, and establish this same standard in a loving way in their home. This is my story.

    As Cane correctly believes, the journey of winning a Christian wife begins with the righteousness and love of the husband. We too must be willing to allow God to do His mighty work in our own lives before we can hope for change in our spouse. And I fear that some here don’t understand what it takes in kindness, gentleness, peace, joy and love to win a spouse, if they are trying to sit on the throne of their God given role as leader instead of the example of Jesus, the “knosis” of humbly meeting her right where she is at with understanding and love, even as we gently remind her of God’s will for her life and marriage. No longer allowing ourselves to be controlled and disrespected, but leaving know doubt of our love and sacrificial service for her. That’s the challenge, and in the process we find God is changing us as much or more than He is changing her, as we both grow up into Christ together as one.

  313. Ken says:

    sorry… i can’t figure out this italics thing It doesn’t close seem to close the quote for me… and goes into one long quote.

  314. Ken says:

    @ Wraith

    I do not disagree with you that the discussion of Biblical roles should be preeminent in any discussion of what to counsel a couple when the wife works outside the home. If, especially in the case of having small children she is working in a job, the violation of God’s ideal is quite serious, and any remedy they decide to apply would be considered one of trying to determine “fairness” instead of trying to reset things to live out God’s Word. It’s a quagmire society has created that Christians need to withdraw from and do things God’s ways, instead of slip sliding along with the world. It is said that the church stays ten years behind the the world as it follows.

  315. Ken says:

    @ Cail Corishev this statement is just not true: “your instinct was to step in and say, “Look, we all know the real culprit here is the lazy, neglectful husbands who are causing their wives to act this way, so let’s talk about that instead.” Nor is it what I wrote.

    My first instinct was to set the record straight that the post did not say, “husbands are NEVER too do any housework.” That is just not what Lori said nor a Christian position. Certainly it is the husband’s prerogative to decide.

    Secondly to say that to the Christian wife, “It makes no difference in your response if your husband is or is not disobedient in helping with housework.” To do this I had to mention the potentially disobedient husband. It’s kind of hard to bring up the point I wanted to make without mentioning him. You tell me how I emphasize 1 Peter 3:1 without acknowledging that some husbands are indeed disobedient ones??? There is no mention of lazy.

    You write: “The point is that instinct to always, always, always shift the responsibility for anything bad women do onto men.” Again this statement is so wrong as it relates to me.

    I wonder if this sentiment and sensibility of the group does not see far more “blame of men over women” than actually exists in the messages of pastors and teachers. I do know the bias you express against Christian men does exists, as I hear it, and I too sought counsel from pastors for dealing with my difficult wife and I was told to “just love her more.” Not wrong counsel, but one should have told me what loving leadership looks like. To set Biblical standards and call her out gently, but firmly when she violated them.

    The fact is you simply do not know me if you have not seen the hits I take from the haters who see exactly the opposite of what you accuse me of in my writings. I want to believe and teach all of God’s Word, and not shy away from any part of it. And I still have things to learn on both sides of this issue. If what Lori and I teach does not meet your group’s desire to clearly spotlight the Christian wife’s responsibilities then no one will please you. We have been a team at this from the beginning and Lori is not teaching things with which I disagree, and we have regular dialogue about it. She may be more hard hitting at it, but that is her charge as an older godly woman fulfilling Paul’s admonitions. And my charge is to lead her and be a husband to her. She’s no loner much of a challenge, but boy she gave me a run for my money as she has as strong a character as any, which works get once the Lord gets a hold of this vital area of there life.

    When I write I am writing to couples including “Dealing with a Difficult Wife” and a few other tough hitting posts. I certainly will be more aware of protecting the husbands leadership position, but I have been the husbnad as leader for more than 35 years, and was taught my role well by my pastor Dad. Unfortunately he is unaware of this new world streaming towards the “whore riding the beast.” Counseling men how to win over their unsubmissive Christian wives is the hard part, and if this group has the godly silver bullet to get wives to quickly adopt Biblical thinking in today’s feminist age, I would like to hear it.

  316. Gunner Q says:

    “Counseling men how to win over their unsubmissive Christian wives is the hard part, and if this group has the godly silver bullet to get wives to quickly adopt Biblical thinking in today’s feminist age, I would like to hear it.”

    Gladly. The silver bullet is that men don’t have to “win over” their wives, neither are you responsible for a husband’s decisions regarding his family. Godly marriages are based on informed consent. Husband informs and wife consents. Your role as a pastor, then, is to back up the husband rather than teach/advise him or act as referee. Here’s an example in a counseling context:

    Pastor: “Did your husband tell you to do something?”

    Wife: “Yes, he…”

    Pastor: “Did you do it?”

    Wife: “Huh? No.”

    Pastor: “You are in the wrong. Your duty to Christ is to respect and obey your husband. Now obey him.”

    Wife: “But he’s wrong/abusive/unBiblical!”

    Pastor: “You have no right to judge your husband and I have no right to overrule him. He is the master of your marriage, not me. Disobedience to your husband is disobedience to God Himself.”

    That’s the sort of thing you need to say. Maybe she still won’t submit but now she cannot pretend her rebellion is God-sanctioned, and however things turn out the husband will be grateful you supported him instead of investigated him.

    What if the husband is actually doing something wrong? It’s not your fault. It’s not your problem. Church leaders have no Biblical authority to regulate individual marriages and therefore no responsibility. As if a truly abusive man could possibly go unpunished in this feminized age.

  317. Avraham rosenblum says:

    I think this last comment by Gunner is an absolute classic: Absolutely priceless.
    Pastor: “Did your husband tell you to do something?”

    Wife: “Yes, he…”

    Pastor: “Did you do it?”

    Wife: “Huh? No.”

    Pastor: “You are in the wrong. Your duty to Christ is to respect and obey your husband. Now obey him.”

  318. Ken says:

    Gunner, I am not counseling the women…. counseling the men. And I have the man’s back.

    The poor guy who has gone full circle from trying to chase down his wife’s perceived “needs,” and is now firmly, yet lovingly leading, yet his wife still jumps into her rebellious mode a couple times a week when the mood hits, or he does or says something she doesn’t like. She agrees she should submit and allow him to lead, but she is stuck in such a stronghold that the upsets happen regularly and end sometimes days later with an apology and recommitment to her husband as leader.

    It’s that silver bullet he is looking for … He understands that he has to stand firmly on God’s Word and calling for his life, but the tools for dealing with emotional illness “deep rooted sin,” are few, especially when you can’t afford the therapist every week. Sin and its strongholds… with many of these sin going back to childhood.

  319. Linx says:

    @Ken
    It’s that silver bullet he is looking for … He understands that he has to stand firmly on God’s Word and calling for his life, but the tools for dealing with emotional illness “deep rooted sin,” are few, especially when you can’t afford the therapist every week. Sin and its strongholds… with many of these sin going back to childhood.

    What are you telling these men? A therapist can’t deal with sin…… only God can.

  320. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ July 4, 2016 at 12:12 pm:
    “Gunner, I am not counseling the women…. counseling the men. And I have the man’s back.”

    Sigh, if you’re counseling the man AT ALL in marital situations then you DON’T have his back. Titus 2 gives older women the right and duty to teach younger wives to serve their husbands better but there is no parallel command for older men to teach younger husbands to love their wives better. The position you’re trying to fill does not exist in the Bible.

    If a husband asks for marriage advice then you can give your solicited opinion. Just be clear you aren’t speaking as a Church leader or with God’s authority when you do.

  321. Ken says:

    @ Gunner Q You and I are the church, and we are to make disciples, using the gifts God gave us for the building up of the body of Christ. When a man comes to me for help with his difficult wife, knowing that I have had success with my own situation, he is looking for me to speak into his life and life situation to minister to him. You need a verse for this when the epistles are filled with our encouragement to the “one another commands” in the building up o the body?

    When I encourage him and point him to what the Word of God says I am being a fellow member of the body. That is the position I am filling that far too few are willing to enter into because of time and ignorance of the Word. If I am not to counsel and encourage these men, who is? I will be happy to send them there. In some cases their pastor has given up.

  322. Feminist Hater says:

    Gunner, I have to disagree. It depends. If a husband is in need of help and actually asks for it, then Ken is right to help him. He’s the man’s Pastor after all. A good solid teaching can help when it comes at the time when the person is searching. However, it is the interfering when it is not asked for that can cause a rebellious woman to become even more so; and I believe that is what is being spoken out about.

    When the wife asks the Pastor to council her husband because she believes her husband is wrong and cannot lead, then you have a direct break in the hierarchy, where she is trying to replace her husband’s authority over her with that of the Pastor. In the end, if the will comes from the husband to change and he seeks out the help when he is in need, I see no folly on Ken’s part to give him wisdom from Scripture.

  323. Feminist Hater says:

    Oh shoot, sorry. I should read all your points. You did actually make the exception of when the husband asks for help, my bad..

  324. Ken says:

    @ Linx You write: “What are you telling these men? A therapist can’t deal with sin…… only God can.”

    Correct that only God deals with sin, and He often does so through the husband and God’s discipline. The man still has to be a husband to the difficult wife and conform his behavior and reactions to the Word of God, while seeking to be the vehicle of sanctification to her.

    What I tell these men is quite simple. “Do all things Christian and set the standard that all things Christian will be done in your home. When you see sin, call it out each and every time for what it is. Own your own attitudes and behaviors as one who will give an account some day, and do the best you can to hold her accountable for the values she claims to believe in, but is not displaying. If she claims to be a Christian, Christian values, if a non-believer, a minimum value of common human decency.”

  325. BillyS says:

    Ken, use at the start and at the end of the text block. Leave out all the spaces I had.

    I will try to respond more later. You missed many valid points.

    Keep in India though that a husband can’t change a rebellious wife. You dodge a bullet with your wife. I survive my marriage by being a loving hardnosed man. The Church didn’t get to demand Jesus act a certain way. He doesn’t control our repented center either.

    God was a perfect husband to Israel and they still choose error.

  326. BillyS says:

    My formatting got appled, not shown.

    Use something like [i]text to italicize [/i] using less than and greater than symbols instead of the braces.

  327. Ken says:

    @ BillyS Thanks for info… I will try it. [i]trying…. God bless you[/i]

    I am not under the illusion that a husband can change his wife, although I had success watching the Lord change my wife into the wife of my dreams, honoring my efforts to help her change her bad thinking. All behavior comes from what we think, so finding the lies and replacing them with the truth is the lifelong journey of Spiritual growth for all of us.

    Lies exposed to the light of God’s truth often bear fruit in a changed life. I find too many men giving up on their wife and possibly jumping into the mud with her instead of determining that their love for God and wife demand a lifelong effort to walk in whatever situation and circumstances the Lord has called us. Especially walking as a Christian testimony with the one we are committed to loving most, our wives. Great leaders never give up and never lose hope, especially when the God of the universe lives inside of us!

    If the role of Christ is to present His disobedient church spotless before God some day, and he is busy in doing this work, why would it not be the role of the husband to do the same with his wife? The success of our loving efforts depend on Him, not on us, but we become His vehicle for ministering to her, flesh of our flesh.

  328. Daily Llama says:

    Ken, you don’t need to explain yourself. Least of all to strangers on the internet. You’re doing just fine. The evidence is you have a fit, attractive wife who loves you. That’s more than most commenters in the blogosphere can say.

    As another poster already pointed out, the work, that includes house work and child rearing, is the duty of the husband and the wife is the help mate/meet. This idea that husbands “help” the wife is reverse of the Biblical idea that the husband does the work and she helps. This will take the burden off of the wife/mother because most men have different (I won’t say “lower”) standards than women when it comes to hearth and home.

    Our standards are simpler. We just like things basic and clean. We don’t really care about messes, so neither should you. Simple, easy meals and a basically clean house is all it takes. Matching, decorating, entertaining friends, that’s what usually overwhelms women and its their own fault for taking all that on. If we leave our socks on the floor, that’s where they can stay until WE pick them up. Really ladies, we just don’t care and neither should you.

  329. Ken says:

    Thanks!🙂 My purpose in explaining at times is much broader in that I have a whole group of radical feminists who track down my every word and twist it and want to make me pay for what my wife blogs. So having a truer picture of who we are is best when false accusations are thrown out at us. But I rarely venture outside of the blog and Facebook anymore, knowing the haters will find me and twist and mischaracterize. Also not much time for such things…

    You are very correct that most men have a much lower standard for house care than women, and living with a wife who has suffered greatly with her health has us agreeing on trying to keep things picked up, but not worrying about too much else. Keeping a place clean is not that hard as she is fast and efficient at whatever she does.

  330. Anon says:

    Ken claimed,

    You are very correct that most men have a much lower standard for house care than women,

    Absurd. You have no idea how single women usually have a far more squalid home than single men.

    The higher ‘standard’ that married women maintain is partly due to forcing the husband to do tasks she thinks will humiliate him, even if those are not necessary for the home. See the main post.

    You are desperate to find some way to extol women has being superior, contrary to all evidence. You really are a pedestalizer…

  331. Daily Llama says:

    “Absurd. You have no idea how single women usually have a far more squalid home than single men. ”

    Reasons:
    1. more pets
    2. more stuff (they have the hoarding gene)

    A single guy’s apartment is sparse. A single woman’s has more stuff. More furniture, more decor, more clothes, more home and body products. Some women claim if they don’t buy all this stuff that men won’t find them attractive. A man walks into her apartment and sees little furniture, no pets, few shoes, few clothes, no makeup, no frills, and assumes she’s “not feminine” and hence not attractive. One female dating “expert” is even telling her readers to feign interest in shopping if they have none so guys will think they are feminine.

  332. Ken says:

    I guess there no sense in trying to have a reasonable conversation here without getting some sucker punch. I don’t see the “humiliation aspect” holding much validity in the majority of marriages. Unfortunately the wife equates a husband “meeting her needs” which are not really needs at all, as a measure of his love for her. The idea of humiliating him with housework is a real far stretch.

  333. Anon says:

    Ken,

    The idea of humiliating him with housework is a real far stretch.

    So didn’t read even the original article, where Dalrock fully exposes how common it is for wives to demand the husband do unnecessary household tasks for the sole purpose of humiliating him.

  334. Anon says:

    It is amazing that after a detailed original article, and 300+ comments, Ken still has learned nothing. Women want men to do more degrading housework for the sole purpose of humiliating men. As Dalrock described, this is common in many ‘Christian’ marriages, and the woman usually does not care if the task is unnecessary, if the children can help, or if some machine can speed up the task.

    Yet, Ken is still in deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep denial. Ken has, by visiting here, been effectively immersed in an ocean of wisdom and clarity, and yet still manages to emerge completely dry.

  335. Looking Glass says:

    Since Ken is still around, let me take a different approach:

    Explain “Kindness”, in the Christian/Biblical context, and how Women should display it. What does it look like? What does it look like over the course of a life? What effect should it have on the way a Woman interacts with her family? Husband? Children? Church?

    If you think that’s easy, you’re in for a very nasty reality. Your assumptions about the world & Women are going to run into the Truth, and it isn’t pretty.

  336. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    You need to use a character for the ] character as well. I am sure I could put them so they would show up in the post, but they always hide when I put a proper tag.

    Hope this helps.

  337. BillyS says:

    Ken, some direct responses to your previous post:

    I have wondered if that is not what is happening some here on this site.

    I was talking about not being good yourself. People here definitely write out of their own experiences, but I am thinking more of pastors who were schmucks in the past thinking all men are schmucks now. That does not seem to be the case in your situation, but I do not know for certain.

    Note that Abraham was a schmuck at times with Sarah, but Peter honored her for calling Abraham Lord and made that a model for Christian wives to follow.

    I am OK with being taken to task for my seeming “throwing men under the bus” in my post, and yet I am not OK with stupid and inaccurate personal accusations when my life and body of work far outshines my accusers lives and their false accusations. But I have to remember that some may be trolls in disguise. Maybe I should not expect more from this group than the left wing feminists who accuse me of controlling my wife so that she would write the things she writes.

    Men certainly should be accountable, but they are almost always held accountable, whether they are responsible or not. They are not in this case, as the first point from your wife was valid and your response did not need to note anything bad about men.

    Seek to avoid giving all the caveats and you will do much better. I have been training myself to do that. I don’t need to say “I may be wrong” before everything I say, for example. it is clearly true, but saying it just draws away from my point.

    Undercutting your wife’s point was what irked many here, at least in my view. (They can and have spoken for themselves.)

    Here is the extreme view you postulate. It matches well with those who believe that the Bible has “lots” of women leaders. Nothing in either case could be further from the truth. The few places where Christ is angry do not support an angry or nasty response from a blogger. The scriptures are clear on the subject:

    Your response is not appropriate to the content. I never said Jesus walked around being nasty. He did act harsh, by current standards, many times. Quoting a Scripture doesn’t negate the other points. We need to take the entirety of the Scriptures into account, not just certain ones. (Especially for those of us who as Sola Scriptura.)

    Trying to be nice all the time is causing many in the church to be churchian and not true representatives of our Lord.

    Our example as a husband is the suffering servant

    Only in one main act, not in His entire life. He washed the feet of His disciples a grand total of once. He had his close followers carry out the feeding of the 4 and 5 thousand. He did not run around doing it.

    Husbands should lay down their lives for their wives, but they also have the full right to “sit on their throne” as you malign” the same way Jesus sits on a throne now. Men do not have to always run around trying to do the right thing. Assuming that is very close to making a works theology for husbands and is very errant.

    And I will repeat what I asked before: How many men really sit around and do nothing around their house? Few who would read your writing do that, however much we are told otherwise.

    How many that really do that did that before marriage and the woman married them anyway? The women then share the blame in this case since they chose such a man to hook up with. Very few of those same men will ever listen to your admonition, so you are wasting your time and instead maligning godly men.

    Keep in mind as well that men who are constantly told they are not doing enough may eventually decide to live up to that claim. I am not going to bother to try and meet a goal if I will always be slammed for not meeting it. Consider that in your writing.

    This is obviously a hot issue and I can’t see the extreme position of many here that somehow our God given roles protects a Christian husband from a responsibility to accurately determine if he should be helping more in the home. I do agree with you that it is only few Christian men who I know who do not do more than their far share of everything; work, home work and kids, but my post was intended to teach that it should make little difference to the Christian wife if her husband is or is not helping enough as the prescription for the solution is both the same, “win him without a word.”

    How would this be relevant to husbands? Wives are given the command to win their husbands “without a word” as you note, not husbands. You would need to do some serious Biblical gymnastics to assert otherwise.

    Then it never crossed my mind the sensitivity of the Christian husband of feeling thrown under the bus.

    You may want to start paying attention to sermons and other things, especially in the church. Notice how men are treated. How many times are men built up unconditionally? How many times are they cut down? How many times does any praise for their role include criticism of one sort or another?

    The problem is that your wife’s post was on women’s attitudes and dragging in disobedient husbands just muddied the waters. Many women already blame everything on someone else, especially their husbands. Their attitude is the only thing they control and the only thing that should receive the focus.

    I do think what you wrote was a bit harder on husbands than you note here, but that may be because you don’t really see how much husbands are cut down today. See the video I posted above from Matt Chandler. Note that church leaders would never tell women they must go to bed more tired, but my otherwise thoughtful pastor thought this was appropriate for father’s day.

    but all my wife could focus upon was my responsibilities, my faults and what she perceived were deficits

    That is the core problem. Give any out and many (or even most) women will take it. Far too many Christian teachers absolve women from any responsibility until their husband is perfect. That will never happen so women are never held to account.

    If a husband here thinks he will get a backbone and stand up to his wife’s rebellion and everything will just fall into place, he needs to think again.

    Did someone here say that?

    I know that my wife has only started to go the right way as I stood up for what is right on my end. No amount of work on my part would change her. She had to make that decision herself. I did have to work through some strong issues that were making me passive and complain prone. My marriage would have been hosed if I had not stood up to some things, perhaps with a bit stronger hand than many Christians would take.

    I would not be going on 28 years of marriage this fall if I had followed the weak “servant” advice, as it is presented. I do plenty for my wife, but I don’t try to conform to her image of what I should do. My Lord is the only one with that right.

    I fully realize my wife could blow things up at any point, and I realize I came closer to that than I expected in the past. I have also considered my father’s experience and realized he had the bad results twice, once long after he was a Christian. Both my mother and step mother were ultimately unhappy and ended things. He pined for restoration the second time, but never got it. I am much more realistic in these areas, largely because I have learned from his experience.

    (He passed away quite a while ago fyi.)

    As Cane correctly believes, the journey of winning a Christian wife begins with the righteousness and love of the husband. We too must be willing to allow God to do His mighty work in our own lives before we can hope for change in our spouse.

    Of course. But being a patsy is not the role to success. Only God can ultimately help our spouse change, but we can certainly do things that make it much easier.

    Doing the dishes is likely to be very counterproductive in that effort. See other posts from Dalrock on this topic.

    A wife wants the man she is attracted to to do things to help her, but many seemingly helpful things can kill that attraction. That is a deeper subject few in the modern church have really considered.

    Hope this makes sense. It is a bit long, but you had a lot in there and I am sure I missed points even so.

  338. BillyS says:

    Ken, the reply feature eats the less than sign. Use that instead of the left brace.

    Drop me an email and I can send you and example there.

    Sorry to clog things Dalrock.

  339. Ken says:

    @ Looking Glass, Explain “Kindness”, in the Christian/Biblical context, and how Women should display it. What does it look like? What does it look like over the course of a life? What effect should it have on the way a Woman interacts with her family? Husband? Children? Church?”

    I am not sure what you are looking for with this statement, but here goes: I have seen kindness in my mother who lived a sacrificial life of love caring for her husband first and then her family. With her friends there was never an unkind word or gossip that I ever heard out of her mouth. She was always ready to serve, give gifts, and bring the stranger in off the street for family dinner if they were all alone. Chores were done with gladness and singing. Regular hugs were given and a song was always on her lips, especially if we complained or were in a bad mood, she could burst into a song of thankfulness that cheered us up. My Dad was her hero, or at least she treated him that way. Always anticipating his every need. She served in women”s ministries teaching women how to love their husbands and families. She was highly respected and loved and died at 48 of breast cancer after pouring out her life into her family and ministry.

    Such women are rare in today’s world, but that is not to say they do not exist. I see the same kindness and servant’s hearts in my daughters. My wife has had to learn to be kind and generous, and is developing an ever growing servant’s heart because she wants to be a godly woman of kindness, gentleness and love, against what she was trained by society in her teens and college years. And she has thousands of like minded women all doing the same in their homes and family as they learn together what God requires of them.

    I see the problem with this group is that it is just the opposite pole from the Feminists. To the feminist they clump all men who will not agree with them and champion women’s rights into one group of female haters, taking advantage of women. This group sees most women in awful rebellion and as manipulators and humiliators of men. Both sides are talking about the extremists as if they make up the whole, whereas most women have nowhere near the feminist bent and sins ascribed to them here.

    Certainly there are subtle lies that have infected the church and it is easy to agree with some thoughts and views here, but the to universally blanket all females in the extremes of feminism I find so wrong. It’s the same stupid game the militant feminists play.

    I work with far more women than men, and the vast majority of the women I work with hardly resemble what is regularly purported here. It’s extreme and over the top. The dissecting of a persons words to make them say things the writer never intended all to find the ooze of feminism. They find the monster of feminism behind every tree after they parse and mischaracterize words. I am sure the same will happen to these words, because that is the game here. Not so much by Dalrock, although I think his Wilson piece does indeed finds monsters in what Wilson says that does not exist, but its the commenters who ruin whatever work he is trying to accomplish, at least with me.

    Now what was your point Look Glass?

  340. Anon says:

    Ken,

    I see the problem with this group is that it is just the opposite pole from the Feminists. To the feminist they clump all men who will not agree with them and champion women’s rights into one group of female haters, taking advantage of women. This group sees most women in awful rebellion and as manipulators and humiliators of men. Both sides are talking about the extremists as if they make up the whole, whereas most women have nowhere near the feminist bent and sins ascribed to them here.

    Absurd strawman. Everything here is quite fair and is questioned routinely.

    I work with far more women than men, and the vast majority of the women I work with hardly resemble what is regularly purported here.

    You don’t know how to notice certain things, or choose not to. Your own behavior in the original post indicates you chose the path of least courage (criticizing men) to avoid the path of most courage (holding women accountable).

  341. JDG says:

    Our society is thoroughly indoctrinated in feminism. Feminism is in virtually every media broadcast, in the laws, in the class rooms, and in every single publicly recognized institution. One doesn’t need to parse and mischaracterize words to see the monster of feminism behind every tree.

    One does have to already be indoctrinated to see what Dalrock wrote as extreme.

  342. Ken says:

    Thanks Billy S, Take a look at my writings and I tell me if my advice is not exactly what you have found so far effective in your marriage. I have been teaching for some time that Christian husbands much stand up to their difficult wives, but they must do so in a Christian and God honoring way. It is incumbent upon the husband to seek the Lord and His Word to determine his plan that will do both things at once.

    http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/12/wimpy-husbands-with-rebellious-wives.html

    http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/02/dealing-with-rebellious-wife.html

    In have 35 years of marriage and I have been able to see my wife go from a difficult one to one who trains thousands of appreciative Christian women who want to know how to love their husbands and families God’s ways. It is quite a turn around after quite a challenge, but well worth it. I followed the principles of setting the standard of “all things Christian” in my home, and I found myself working on my sins as she worked on hers.

    There seems to be a misunderstanding I keep reading from commenters as if a woman’s sins are somehow greater than the man’s. It is just not the case, as the sins are different in may ways because of the different make up of male and female. The male’s struggle is with his sexual nature and a woman’s most often her emotional nature. Both bad sins, so trying to decide who is worse is an unprofitable exercise. My guess is in the universe of sins we will find it partitioned equally, and both feminism and modern sexual sins, and porn, are driving us to the end of the age, and dooming the church and family.

  343. Ken says:

    The “throw stones” approach to trying to solve the problem has never worked and will not work here. It may be fun for many here to explore, postulate and come up with new ways to see feminism in the church, while others are actually out on the front lines ministering against it, then taking the stones from the guys who hate it. I know the church often shoots its own. It will be interesting to stand before Jesus some day and see what it it is really all about.

  344. Linx says:

    @Ken

    You are contradicting yourself.
    You said that deep rooted sin is an illness that needs to be dealt with tools like a therapist. Now you say that only God deals with it through His discipline and the husband.

    So which tools should the husband use to confront a spiritual battle? The full armour of God [The sword of the Spirit, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness, helmet of salvation, belt of truth, boots of peace] or the couch in a therapists office?

    “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness” 2 Corinthians 12:9

  345. Ken says:

    I am not sure of my context for the therapist statement, but what we and others are finding is that when the husband and God’s discipline do not work in getting a wife to line up with her own determined values, especially those of a Christian, the bitterness and perhaps guilt seems to send many into a place where they lose the ability to control their own minds. They need someone who has results in dealing with their emotional issues to coach them to new mental, emotional and spiritual pathways. This becomes a long term process with a fraction restored.

    One such wife recently separated again from her husband, somewhat by mutual consent, because he had become her poison. No matter how mild he gave constructive criticism she could not accept without falling apart for days and weeks. Long term rebellion, especially rooted in bitterness often shows up in different mental emotional disease processes, and it is becoming epidemic. She needs a Christian therapist, but they are broke.

    We wonder how much of BPD is grounded in mothers working outside the home, and dropping off their kids to Daycare as soon as one month old. This creates in the child the inability to appropriately bond with her parent. We are seeing many wives who want a Christian marriage, but their emotional pathways have never been trained how to effectively deal with certain emotions, especially the fear of abandonment. So they subconsciously push the husband away when he tries to get close, then complain that he is not close. No husband is equipped to deal with BPD type symptoms, and it is easy to see the sin, but hard to coach how it is effectively corrected without repetitive remapping of the brain to deal with real, but inappropriate emotions.

  346. “Certainly there are subtle lies that have infected the church and it is easy to agree with some thoughts and views here, but the to universally blanket all females in the extremes of feminism I find so wrong. It’s the same stupid game the militant feminists play.

    I work with far more women than men, and the vast majority of the women I work with hardly resemble what is regularly purported here. It’s extreme and over the top. The dissecting of a persons words to make them say things the writer never intended all to find the ooze of feminism. They find the monster of feminism behind every tree after they parse and mischaracterize words.”

    Funny enough this was almost the exact admonishment I received from my pastor when he confronted me about my sharing on God’s punishment to Eve from Genesis 3. That when I highlighted the nature of women (their desire to control their husbands or even manipulate their fathers), in his mind I had tarred all women with the same brush. I was forced to admit that in the same manner, men are capable of controlling and manipulations and therefore, are sinners too — like the women. I could not get my point across that this verse was specific to Eve and therefore could be a feature among females as a result of the Fall.

    I’ve been bugged by this constant worry that as much as I am trying my best to minimise the whispers and guide my wife, pastors, leaders and elders in church are so steeped in these that my work in leading becomes invariably harder.

  347. Ken says:

    Billy S You have asked me twice how many men I know who are lazy and don’t help out, and your point is well taken. I do know such men, but after reflection they are not Believers.

    That said, I think the same holds true with the stereotype of the women given regularly on this blog. I see that type of woman as not being a believer, yet there are millions of true believing women who love the Lord and want to please Him. They are trilled when they find Lori’s blog and they set about becoming a truly godly wife. Other women are also teaching and training women within the church.

    Beyond this group, the vast majority of church going women have no resemblance or desire to be like the the type of a woman spoken of here. I have worked with thousands of women, and none that I can recall is the man hating and humiliating person this blog seems to portray them as. Many have great marriages and know how to love their husbands. Sure most are touched by the virus of feminism and can’t see it, and their husbands at times champion the virus, not knowing what it is dong to their family and society. But the extremes spoken of here do not match up with my 35 years of crisscrossing the USA and working and interacting with thousands of women. Often over many years of time. I know, will take some hits for this, but just giving you my experience.

    So very few men are lazy no good guys, and very few women are ardent feminist men haters. Very few of either are in the church and certainly not in any church I might attend.

  348. Ken says:

    I suggest that Doug Wilson is spot on in recognizing that it becomes almost impossible for a husband or pastor to get any results when confronting a wife on her sin because she will not listen to a man. That is why you must do all you can to get her to commit to being mentored by an older godly women, or get on Lori’s blog. Thousands of women are having “ah ha” moments as Lori shares the sin of the garden, the uniquely woman’s sins with them. http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/

    I battled along for more than 10 years making modest headway with my solidly Christian wife who could not see her own sins. Then one day she starts reading Debbie Pearls “Created to Be His Helpmeet,” after reading many of other marriage books, and in this one an older godly woman spoke to her sins and the Spirit got a hold of her heart.

    It kind of makes sense if you read the curse on woman that she would not listen to her husband, “your desire (control) will be for your husband and he will rule over you.” Hey, its a curse, and not easily broken, but if your wife is a true Believer, there is hope. Get her into Lori’s chat room and reading her blog. She may soon be coming to you with her eyes wide open ready to listen to her husband. I don’t know why this is so effective except to say God ordained it as the remedy, and we lost a generation of older women to work and pleasure, and gained a generation of younger women who have little respect for the older ones and their wisdom. So this is an uphill battle, but others are joining in.

    Why aren’t the pastors teaching this and setting this ministry in their churches? Because they are trying not to offend the working woman who is not staying home with her kids. And yes, other various other wrong or fearful thoughts may affect them, including perhaps their own wife who cannot model as a submissive older godly woman

    I do not fault the pastors I sought counsel from for what they said to me about my doing my part, and men being just as bad as women. What I fault them for is not telling me that if God has placed me as leader in my home I am to lead, even if she does not follow, and even if I have sin in my own life. This leadership is far more than daily devotions, it is calling out sin in all areas of the home and demanding that this home do “all things Christian.” It makes no difference who is sinning more, or less, but both must work on their individual sins without looking at the other to excuse their own sin. And a husband’s role as leader is not withdraw because he sins. This is where many wives try to invalidate a husband’s leadership by pointing to his sin, and the Bible is clear that the role remains in tact where righteous or disobedient to the Word. The prescription is the same for the wife. This is one of the Christian husband’s most powerful Biblical argument. Good luck on your journey and never lose hope!

  349. “I suggest that Doug Wilson is spot on in recognizing that it becomes almost impossible for a husband or pastor to get any results when confronting a wife on her sin because she will not listen to a man.”

    Then,

    “… it is calling out sin in all areas of the home and demanding that this home do “all things Christian”.”

    Then,

    “This is one of the Christian husband’s most powerful Biblical argument,”

    English is not my native language but I am confused.

  350. Linx says:

    @Ken
    You claimed that tools are needed for a husband which would include the use of a therapist. Now you claim that you don’t understand the context of your own statement?

    Seeing as sin is a spiritual issue and not mental one I ask again.
    Which tools should the husband use to confront a spiritual battle? The full armour of God [The sword of the Spirit, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness, helmet of salvation, belt of truth, boots of peace] or the couch in a therapists office?

  351. Avraham rosenblum says:

    Therapists are the agents of the Sitra Achra [the Dark Side]. The Satan found it difficult to destroy marriages and families all by himself so he set up his agents to help him in his work.

  352. Feminist Hater says:

    If these Godly women will not listen to men, then they are not Godly. They are in full rebellion. Instead of treating them with kid gloves, treat them as you would men. Then they will change their tune quite quickly.

    I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with the crap married men and Churchians have to. The money is not worth it. The woman either submits or she can use the door. Thanks.

  353. Looking Glass says:

    @Ken:

    Firstly, my condolences for the loss of your mother. She sounds like a true Saint. (I do understand that it was likely ~20 years ago or more.)

    Now, as for why I asked about Kindness, I ask because it’s an odd question. I realized that Christian Women are generally so bereft of it that the question never comes up, no one talks about it and almost no one can point out the difference between “Niceness” and “Kindness”. So, credit to you for knowing what Kindness should start to look like.

    However, the second level to the question is that, to answer the question, is to display nearly all of one’s assumption about society, God and one’s interactions therein. At the instinctive level, you perfectly understand & agree with what most of us are talking about. That’s why you reframed a hagiography of your Mother into a point about our little corner of the Internet making the same mistake at the Feminists. And very smoothly, at that. It shows your 20+ years of dealing with Women. Women who can’t actually handle clarity without wilting into a ball of emotions, running off screaming or working themselves into a tornado of fury.

    At the practical level, the tactic has become the strategy, thus you’ve lost observational utility. Which is why at the observational level (so your upper cognitive), I don’t think you *can* see what is going on. It explains the oddity of this back & forth. You interpret the actions of Women incorrectly, yet you would never accept those actions in your own home. Thus you don’t realize the blind spots when you comment about Men that had neither your upbringing nor your experience.

    The funny bit is most around here are supportive of your wife’s work. This issue, among the Men in most Christian leadership, is the complete inability to call a “spade a spade”. Women in the West are in deep, deep rebellion against God, and it infects everything. To the point that most Christians that view themselves as leaders will sell out all of the Men at the drop of a hat, so as not to upset the Women that *may* be listening. Which means they do not Fear the Lord. And they are ashamed of the Gospel.

    Why is this so important? Because regardless how upsetting it may be, the reality is that most Women sitting in a Church simply have no salvation. And Pastors damn themselves by not understanding this point.

    Which is why I asked about Kindness. Because most Christians preach pure hatred of their own congregants. And that is the topic that can never be discussed openly.

  354. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    Thanks Billy S, Take a look at my writings and I tell me if my advice is not exactly what you have found so far effective in your marriage. I have been teaching for some time that Christian husbands much stand up to their difficult wives, but they must do so in a Christian and God honoring way. It is incumbent upon the husband to seek the Lord and His Word to determine his plan that will do both things at once.

    I will not claim to be perfect at this by any means. I have just always been very strong willed, since a very early age and that ended up being quite useful in applying red pill truths even before I knew them explicitly.

    My wife generally wants to do well, but has enough of the ideas of our age woven into her formation that it is an ongoing challenge. She would not be considered rebellious by most in the slightest. Some of that is because she is much more passive outwardly, though she is perhaps as strong willed as I am, just in a very different way.

    She was blamed for being too enabling of me when we went through hell when our adopted children hit major issues as teenagers (our only children, a sibling group of 4). Society, including our churches, all assumed I was the problem. They had no idea that I was holding our family together, at least her and I.

    You still seem to have an underlying drive to be “nice” and that is not the same as being Christlike, a common error of many today. We live in a very huge spiritual war and we must start standing, even on what may seem like periphery issues.

    Learn from people here and you will do well. I am regularly slammed by some, but I don’t let it phase me. It is nothing close to what I would be called by raving feminists if I gained their attention.

  355. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    One such wife recently separated again from her husband, somewhat by mutual consent, because he had become her poison. No matter how mild he gave constructive criticism she could not accept without falling apart for days and weeks. Long term rebellion, especially rooted in bitterness often shows up in different mental emotional disease processes, and it is becoming epidemic. She needs a Christian therapist, but they are broke.

    He was not her poison. Her rebellion was her poison. Keep the focus on the right issue.

    She also needs to repent, not to talk over the rebellion with a therapist who will almost certainly just reinforce it. Talking sin over just hardens it. Repentence with God’s mercy is the only working cure, but few really want to follow that way.

    Did you notice how you in essence you excused what she was doing?

    – He is her poison
    – She needs a therapist

    Neither of those calls out her real involvement and what she has control over.

    It would be like saying healthy vegetables were a fat man’s poison because he went to eat jelly beans after having a few of them. The problem is that he needs to train himself to eat right, not that the vegetables were healthy. (Using the proper English generic male here, not slamming fat men.)

    Why not address the root issue and stay focused on the proper target?

  356. Daily Llama says:

    ” Long term rebellion, especially rooted in bitterness often shows up in different mental emotional disease processes, and it is becoming epidemic. ”

    Mental illness is epidemic in the USA. And such people need professional help.

  357. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ 2:41 am:
    “So very few men are lazy no good guys, and very few women are ardent feminist men haters. Very few of either are in the church and certainly not in any church I might attend.”

    *Laughs*

  358. Ken says:

    BillyS We addressed the rebellion head on in a Biblical way seeing her she came full circle realizing that her husband was not the cause of the marriage issues she was. Getting someone to admit that “I am the problem” is a huge advance in the fight, but moving that truth from the head to the heart in someone who has moved into the realm of mental emotional disease from the long-term bitterness, is not so simple. The pastor, psychologist and psychiatrist had already weighed in, and they were ready from anew round of marriage done completely by the Book.

    Well into my discussion with the couple I asked her did she understand that at the root of her marriage issues was her rebellion and the solution was to do things God’s ways? Her response was three nods of the head yes. I then asked her why she still could not do that, sensing that she still could not move forward. Her response was to shake her head “no” she can’t do it.

    She set out on a journey the next six months to try, and the couple tried almost everything, but when the amygdala is poorly mapped, or remapped by sin, to process any small criticism as if it is a knife shoved through the ribs, I certainly have no answers. The call to repentance, she repents, tries again and fails, and now into guilt and depression until her husband can reach inside with his kindness and love enough for her to come out of the shell of a woman she has become. A few good days, then back into the pit. He tried everything, tough love, gentle love, and just leaving her alone. Ultimately a 7th separation… and hoping against hope that this woman who is much loved by her husband, will some day be released from the strongholds that bind her. She, in her mind, wants to be released, but for some reason the hurts and pains, and childhood inability to bond in relationships, keeps her from the life she wants to live with her husband and children.

    Unfortunately we are seeing this type of bondage to sin becoming more prevalent, and loving husbands are at a loss as to what to do to help their wives control their upsets to any regularity so as to have a healthy relationship. It’s still a small segment, but the Christian men who seek my help too often have this type of difficult wife, who seems to have violated her own values so long that it has become a disease. What is a godly man to do in that situation? If you have a better answer than the Christian therapist I am all ears. I love both of these people and only want them together in a happy marriage. And I have two more husband’s in this same situation seeking help.

  359. feeriker says:

    Well into my discussion with the couple I asked her did she understand that at the root of her marriage issues was her rebellion and the solution was to do things God’s ways? Her response was three nods of the head yes. I then asked her why she still could not do that, sensing that she still could not move forward. Her response was to shake her head “no” she can’t do it.

    Ken probably isn’t aware of it, but the example he cites here is not only typical of how women react when confronted with the hard facts behind their sinful, rebellious behavior, but also provides an excellent explanation for why throughout so much of human history, in nearly ALL cultures, women’s behavior was tightly controlled by men (especially married women). If a women “couldn’t do it” where correcting her rebellious behavior was concerned, her husband and other male relatives would step in an control it for her. Far less destruction to civilization occurred when acceptance of the reality of human (in this case human female) limitations was the norm and measures taken to keep its most destructive impulses in check.

    Unfortunately we are seeing this type of bondage to sin becoming more prevalent, and loving husbands are at a loss as to what to do to help their wives control their upsets to any regularity so as to have a healthy relationship. It’s still a small segment, but the Christian men who seek my help too often have this type of difficult wife, who seems to have violated her own values so long that it has become a disease. What is a godly man to do in that situation? If you have a better answer than the Christian therapist I am all ears. I love both of these people and only want them together in a happy marriage. And I have two more husband’s in this same situation seeking help.

    I think Ken (and Doug Wilson, and every other man of similar bent) knows, deep within his heart and sole, exactly what the solution to this problem is. Unfortunately for him and other men steeped in modern thinking where the FI reigns ueber alles, it involves giving full authority to the husband for disciplining his wife, as Scripture commands. Also unfortunate is that EVERYONE knows that any man who exercises such authority is going to fun afoul of temporal authorities who, worshipers of the Duluth Model bible that they are, will arrest the husband and charge him with DV – even though no physical or genuine emotional “abuse” has taken place.

    TL;DR version: No Christian man can effectively bring his wife’s sins under control without martyring himself to the jaws of the State, which works to enforce the FI (for the benefit of the State and at the expense of the Christian faith) that is the source of his wife’s sins.

  360. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ 2:07 pm:
    “Unfortunately we are seeing this type of bondage to sin becoming more prevalent, and loving husbands are at a loss as to what to do to help their wives control their upsets to any regularity so as to have a healthy relationship.”

    Welcome to our nightmare. Your counseling doesn’t work because our unstable marriages are not caused by private sin. They are caused, intentionally and maliciously, by our government legislating the destruction of the family. If you want to help us then you must criticize the evil our government does. No more separation of Church and State.

    How long will you turn a blind eye to the fact that our government rewards unBiblical behavior with cash and prizes? How long until you acknowledge that our culture makes virtuous living almost impossible?

  361. feeriker says:

    Welcome to our nightmare. Your counseling doesn’t work because our unstable marriages are not caused by private sin. They are caused, intentionally and maliciously, by our government legislating the destruction of the family. If you want to help us then you must criticize the evil our government does. No more separation of Church and State.

    How long will you turn a blind eye to the fact that our government rewards unBiblical behavior with cash and prizes? How long until you acknowledge that our culture makes virtuous living almost impossible?

    Exactly.

    I doubt that Ken or his allies will ever acknowledge the role of the State in all of this. If his church is like 90-plus percent of all of the others in America, they’re Caesar worshipers first and foremost who fear Caesar’s power more than God’s (to paraphrase Stalin, God may be the Lord Almighty, but Caesar has far better equipped and manned divisions).

    Ask Ken for his take on Romans 13 if you have any doubt. I’m sure it will echo that of every other misguided teacher in the land.

  362. loving husbands are at a loss as to what to do to help their wives control their upsets to any regularity so as to have a healthy relationship.

    The hits just keep coming. Notice that the husband doesn’t control his wife’s upsets — perish the thought! — he helps her in doing so. Her helpmate, you might call him. And he must do this to have a healthy relationship, because you can’t expect a woman to suck it up and do her part in the relationship if she’s upset. If Momma ain’t happy…..

    She, in her mind, wants to be released, but for some reason the hurts and pains, and childhood inability to bond in relationships, keeps her from the life she wants to live with her husband and children.

    I’ve seen women wrap pastors around their little fingers this way. She tries so hard, and you know it’s real because she spends so much time in church and says all the right things, she even counsels other women to do the right things, and you can see the effort — but somehow, inexplicably, she runs off with a biker every few months. Huh. “Something” must be keeping her from it, because a woman wouldn’t choose such a life, would she?

  363. Ken says:

    @ feeriker and @ Gunner Q

    Just as recognizing the root problem and having a solution are at times two different things when it comes to counseling marriages, and more specifically difficult wives. Your desire for me to jump into a blame camp without being realistic that jumping in does no good at all as it provides no solutions. What has blamed ever accomplished? Let’s solve things.

    The ministry God gives is is not to challenge the state, and not to challenge the overriding principles of the world of darkness, but instead to individually call out those men and women who desire to lay down their rebellion to God and choose Him, His Son and His ways. One can run quickly to “the solution” but if such a solution is illegal or does more harm than good in keeping marriages together, then what kind of worthless solution is it? We are about keeping marriages together, not tearing them apart, and we will strongly advocate for keeping them together even with a difficult or rebellious spouse recognizing God’s hate for divorce. You married her, now figure out how to live in peace and harmony with her. You can try strength and discipline, you can try love and understanding, and you can try anything that does not violate “all things Christian” and state law. But when nothing you try works, you keep trying… because you are the leader responsible for the marriage; your marriage, the woman you chose.

    I am one who was able to, with God’s help, turn my wife around, and now watch her turn many others to God’s ways for marriage and family life. I never gave up, and knew that through this process God was teaching me as much, if not more than what she needed to learn. My personal and spiritual growth was what God was more concerned about than my happiness in marriage. At times I was the suffering servant and at times I made clear that certain behavior would not be tolerated without reasonable consequences.Most of which were agreed to by her in advance. What I discovered is that she had to go back and learn lessons that should have been learned long ago, and deal with bitterness not with me, but her father. Changing bad habits is at times instant and at times takes repetitive daily success that turns to weekly success and then monthly and yearly success. All after finding the lies and replacing them with the truth.

    We have to start with the premise that Christian women have the Spirit of Christ inside of them and will forsake their rebellion. Let’s begin by teaching them who they are in Christ Jesus, brand new creatures with one mission in life to please their Savior and serve Him. Once a person buys into this correct theology, you will often find that getting to the rest of sin becomes easier. Same as the guy who is locked in a stronghold to porn.

    The ones who struggle and cannot seem to give up there rebellion are those who who either are not saved, or have allowed the stronghold to be so tightly fortified that you cannot with any Christian teaching break in. They have to first search their hearts for what is indeed the root cause of this stronghold, and unfortunately, for many it goes back to childhood interference with normal personal growth. So you now have two roots of sin intertwined. One from the natural desire to control her husband and her world, but the second sins perpetuated against her, often without her permission or participation. Then second, reach down deep to their God given will and place it at the feet of the Savior. Their flesh and Spirit are at war and their mind and wills are enlisted to battle the fleshly desire to fall back into repeated sinful habits. Much prayer is necessary as overcoming a stronghold may mean fighting is effectively taking place in the heavenlies over this soul and who will prevail.

    In my case, a wife who went to bed listening to Mom and Dad argue every night and having the seeds of bitterness placed in a child’s mind, by Mom, that Dad is unloving for working 60 hour weeks and neglecting the family, these are the hurts that strongholds are built around to protect. Breaking though can happen, but it happens going back over and over again to who we are in Christ Jesus. That is the reminder we all need to be healed, to really believe that our loving Savior lives in and through us and calls us to a higher plane of living on all areas of our lives. Surrender to His Lordship.

    I can’t jump into a finger pointing camp that has no solutions or at least is not getting into the battle to save as many who will be saved. Finger pointing and analysis is easy. Now go spend a day in Doug Wilson’s shoes and mine at times and tell me what do we counsel the loving Christian man who is married to this difficult wife. The answer is far more complex than it seems, but if it is to be boiled down to just one thing it is to point our wives to “all things Christian” in our homes and then we ourselves model that for her to see and follow. This works, and it is the only way I know how to coach a husband. And the answer is not just get tough, or don’t be wimp, but instead requires that we choose carefully WWJD at every turn of the road. And yes, Jesus was no wimp, nor did anyone boss him around, except to the way of the cross. But he also was no angry mean man, even to most of his enemies. So love must prevail in all one does with others. Is this blog a display of love where men who need counsel can come for help. Or is it just a place to rile up men’s anger against women, particularly their wives? I don’t know as I am relatively new here and about to move back on to my individual ministries. Especially if what I have to offer is not what this site wants or needs.

  364. Anon says:

    Perhaps Ken can tell us which current laws around divorce and child custody/support are unjust to men, if any.

    It does not appear that he knows what the laws are, or is even curious to look into the subject.

    Ken’s intentions are good, but it appears he is no more capable of seeing the misandric state, ambient churchian misandry, or the difference between Marriage 1.0 and Marriage 2.0 than a fish is of noticing water.

  365. Ken says:

    @ Cail Corishev I deal in the reality of what is, not in the blame game. Sure you can say she is being willfully rebellious, just as willfully rebellious as the man hooked on porn. Sin is what keeps people in bondage. The Bible doesn’t use the terms bondage and strongholds without telling us that at one time perhaps this poor soul could have said “no” to sin, and “yes” to God, but now they have walked a road that leaves them in a condition they may only partially control. They need to take what little responsibly and discipline they can muster and grab a hold of the Spirit who can set them free. And this rarely happens “between me and God,” but rather it takes the community of believers to hold Christians accountable. The church is broken and our people are suffering… got it. But it still is our church until it is removed from this earth. So let’s get in there and do what we can, and see how the Lord sets lives free. Because he still is freeing people and marriages daily. Really, in our ministry thees things we are speaking about all have a commonality, but the vast majority of who we work with are being freed daily. Lori gets responses almost daily about how she has saved their marriage and how it is now on a road to doing things God’s ways. My ministry is with the toughest of the tough cases who call upon us for help.

    Many Christian women if they can just find Lori’s blog will say they instantly knew it was what they needed. There just are not enough Lori’s out there… yet.

  366. Feminist Hater says:

    Ken, stop attacking the blog, you just keep showing your hand when you do. You have no idea how this blog has helped men like me get out of problems and get our lives in order. You have no right to come in her and dictate terms. All your posts revolve around the same shit, and you have no idea how your constant blaming of men leads to men leaving your Church in droves.

    I won’t get married because of the dribble you sprout out. If you cannot hold women to account for their sins, you have no right to even try and hold me to account for mine. Stop expecting men to do it all; and perhaps, just perhaps realise that this blog is probably the closest you will ever get to the truth feelings of men and how we think. If you cannot stand what we say, I suggest you leave, gather your balls and come back when you are willing to listen instead of lecture.

  367. Anon says:

    Ken said :

    I can’t jump into a finger pointing camp that has no solutions

    WE have no solutions?? In relation to his ‘solution’ of groveling to ‘feminists’ for their approval and forgiveness?

  368. feeriker says:

    The ministry God gives is is not to challenge the state, and not to challenge the overriding principles of the world of darkness … yadda, yadda, yadda

    In other words, we’re all the Christian equivalent of Big Medicine today: spiritual allopaths who are to focus on treating the symptoms rather the root causes. Root causes of spiritual problems are just too … well, “hard” to tackle. And big. And terrifying. And hey, each of us are just “one little person” in a big, evil world who couldn’t possibly make a difference in fighting the larger enemy.

    You’re right, Ken; we’re not called upon to do that. Not at all. Neither were Jesus’s disciples called upon to go out into the world and, through the power of the Holy Spirit and faith in the Father Himself, use Jesus’s message to change a hostile world that was holding millions of souls in spiritual darkness. No, they were just supposed to go forth and be gently legalistic, hoping that the feel-goodness and righteousness of the message would stick without trying to cultivate the conditions for true change. But darned if those disciples didn’t “misinterpret” their instructions and go forth and confront the real enemy head on, resulting in some pretty spectacular changes to the world while leading lot of people to Jesus, changing their lives (AND the world) forever – often at a cost to their own lives, which didn’t particularly bother them, since they had this weird habit of practicing something called faith in the Savior who sent them forth. (I hope I don’t need to add /sarcasm/ tags to this at this point.)

    My point, Ken, if it already hasn’t been made clear, is that your own seeming lack of faith in God to help you confront the enemy’s “big guns” (e.g., feminism, the misandric government apparatus that is destroying male headship of the home that is God’s mandate) in the spiritual war that is relentlessly battering the Christian husband’s spiritual defenses of his marriage and family is both very telling and very disturbing. No one is asking you to lead a suicide charge by yourself, but merely to acknowledge that these forces, like it or not, MUST be both recognized for what they are destroying AND actively combatted with God’s help, which we are to prayerfully ask Him for constantly in order for any healing of Christian marriages to even begin, let alone succeed.

    Bottom line: We as Christians can no longer take the ostrich approach to the enemy’s “big guns,” that are a key part of battle against sin that we are fighting. Yes, we who are believers ARE to challenge the principles of the world of darkness and the hold they have on believers – WITH GOD’S HELP, TO BE ASKED THROUGH FERVENT AND CONSTANT PRAYER!

    I know I don’t need to tell you how important that last part is, but frankly, it seems to play a very minor role in most Christians lives, even those who claim spiritual maturity, as witnessed by the apparently miniscule faith they have in God to favorably respond to it.

  369. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ 6:18 pm:
    “What has blamed ever accomplished? Let’s solve things.”

    You mean, what good does it do to call out the wicked behavior of wicked men just as Christ did? Just as all the prophets did? Just as the apostles did?

    “But [Christ] also was no angry mean man,..”

    *quiet stare of disbelief*

  370. Ken says:

    You write: “I won’t get married because of the dribble you sprout out. If you cannot hold women to account for their sins, you have no right to even try and hold me to account for mine.”

    I think what your thouught misses is that thousands of women ARE being held accountable for their sin and changing. And I have no way to hold you accoutable for your sin, nor desire to. All I can do is share the truth as God leads me and hope the Spirit inside of you and others will be open to reflecting upon it. If you are not a Believer, why are you in this discussion? The unbeliever will not understand because they hold that same root of rebellion in their life as the rebellious woman. It is all rebellion against God and His ways.

    You do realize that millions upon millions are living out satisfying marriages, even if they are not fully Biblical? I have many nonChristian friends who have good marriages along withCHristian friends who also have good ad fulfiulling marriages. Their wives are happy, kind and have servants hearts. This idea that one must be able to hold all women accountable for their sins in order to get marriied fails to recognize that you just need one woman who is willing to be a part of your life, love you and work with you towrads a happy marriage, to be happy. I married one who needed much change, and we worked through so that she has become the wife of my dreams. I would only wish the same for you.

  371. Ken says:

    @ Feminist Hater sorry the comment above was for you.

  372. PokeSalad says:

    Especially if what I have to offer is not what this site wants or needs.

    To this point, you offer nothing better than what has been spewed a thousand times before by feminists and churchians of every stripe and ilk.

  373. Ken says:

    @ feeriker You write: “merely to acknowledge that these forces, like it or not, MUST be both recognized for what they are destroying AND actively combatted with God’s help, which we are to prayerfully ask Him for constantly in order for any healing of Christian marriages to even begin, let alone succeed.”

    I am fine with this mission and with what Dalrock is doing, just as I assume that Dalrock and others are fine with Doug Wilson and me for what we are doing. So I see where Dalrock, Caldo and Lori and I are on the front fighting, but why should we have to fight the rest of you as if you are the enemy, when we are on the same side?

    My point is not to disparage Dalrock, you and the other men here with you calling, but rather ask why not be more gracious in general, even to your enemies nad especialy towards those of us who have a different calling of the Lord? Someone has to look at things globally and others of us try some global focus, but mainly a focus on individual marriages, winning one spouse at a time to godly marriages.

    Keep your mission, but be careful not to cut out more of the infection you see in other ministries than is absolutely necessary. Furthermore, why not police the personal attacks so that this place becomes a place where more men and women can join your fight? Take or leave my suggestions. It’s part of my profession and gifting to offer helpful suggestions that you may take or leave, or reflect upon.

  374. Ken says:

    @ Gunner Q you write: “You mean, what good does it do to call out the wicked behavior of wicked men just as Christ did? Just as all the prophets did? Just as the apostles did?”

    I am OK with that… now are you putting Wilson, Robert and me into this statement as wicked men with wicked behavior? If so, reality is missing.

    I think this may be the same problem the feminists sites have. Some are so busy attacking what they see as wickedness, that this same behavior spills over to everyone they disagree with. Then some justify their behavior by saying its social media, or Jesus was this way. It’s just sin.

    Maybe I have missed the purpose of this blog. Is it a blog to go against feminism everywhere or is it specifically focused on trying to root out the virus from the church. These are indeed two different missions, and I have always assumed it was the latter purpose, but now you give me pause to wonder? If it is church related I stand with you. If it is to try and hold back the tide of the world and the evil one, I am so sorry to say, but that’s not going to happen. We are running headlong to the end of time and all we can do now is save as many as we can before the man on the white horse comes riding in and says with the sword in His mouth, “ENOUGH.”

  375. Anonymous Reader says:

    She set out on a journey the next six months to try, and the couple tried almost everything, but when the amygdala is poorly mapped, or remapped by sin, to process any small criticism as if it is a knife shoved through the ribs, I certainly have no answers.

    This is a very interesting point. The fight / flight / freeze system in humans is teachable, and can be taught by a single negative example if it is strong enough. Many young men spend quite a bit of time and effort getting themselves over a nuclear rejection by a woman, for example.

    Neuroplasticity is greater than previously thought. A woman who has become mapped, as you say, to see any action by a man other than instant compliance as a threat has a problem. Better to not let her get that way in the first place, but…water under the bridge.

    There is a way to manage a woman like that. You won’t like it.

    Regarding neuroplasticity I strongly recommend Biology of Desire a book about addiction. Dopamine hits are dopamine hits, whether obtained from meth / heroin / booze / pills, or from a really intense screaming fit of anger. Rewiring the brain to reroute the desire to (drug / booze / angerfit) isn’t easy and does require the individual in question to want to change.

    That loving husband, with the wife that keeps reverting to bad behavior? He needs to learn Game…

  376. feeriker says:

    @ feeriker You write: “merely to acknowledge that these forces, like it or not, MUST be both recognized for what they are destroying AND actively combatted with God’s help, which we are to prayerfully ask Him for constantly in order for any healing of Christian marriages to even begin, let alone succeed.”

    I am fine with this mission and with what Dalrock is doing, just as I assume that Dalrock and others are fine with Doug Wilson and me for what we are doing. So I see where Dalrock, Caldo and Lori and I are on the front fighting, but why should we have to fight the rest of you as if you are the enemy, when we are on the same side?

    I’m honestly not sure that we really are on the same side, Ken. I wish with all my heart that this was not the case, but what I’m hearing from you is essentially this: “I know that I’m not seeing the whole problem, or even most of the problem, when it comes to wifely sin and rebellion. But to go out of my way to look for the full picture will take me to places where I don’t want to go, places that will make me uncomfortable, places that may be dangerous, places that might make me have to potentially risk or sacrifice something. So rather than do that, I’m just going to take half measures that I admit not only don’t really do my clients any good, but might actually cause them more harm in the long run. Besides, my clients would never take the kind of medicine that ‘the big picture’ would lead me to prescribe, so what’s the use?”

    I hope I’m wrong, but what I’ve read from you thus far doesn’t convince me that I am.

    My point is not to disparage Dalrock, you and the other men here with you calling, but rather ask why not be more gracious in general, even to your enemies nad especialy towards those of us who have a different calling of the Lord? Someone has to look at things globally and others of us try some global focus, but mainly a focus on individual marriages, winning one spouse at a time to godly marriages.

    *SIGH* Not again … //*facepalm*//

    Disagreeing with your methods and putting up a firm counter-argument against them is NOT being “ungracious,” Ken. It’s being simply being honest. Honesty is, alas, a rare attribute among the faithful these days.

    You and your colleagues have been devoured and captivated by what can only be described as “the Cult of Nice,” which is why your methods of addressing women’s sins have failed so abjectly.

    Hardened hearts full of sin don’t respond to “nice” or “gracious.”

    – Was Jesus “nice” or “gracious” to the moneychangers in the Temple?

    – Was Jesus “nice” or “gracious” to the demon-possesed people He encountered in His journeys?

    – Was Jesus “nice” or “gracious” to the hypocritical pharisees who attempted to pervert God’s law for their own selfish ends?

    No, He was not. He was blunt, curt, frontal, and in the case of the moneychangers, violent (that whip that He had in His hands was kind of the polar opposite of “nice” or “courteous”). Imagine Him “nicely” or “courteously” asking demons to leave the possessed!

    No, Ken, sin is not confronted “nicely” or “courteously” with the expectation that it will just go away or that those practicing it repeatedly will repent of it when handled with kid gloves – especially if they’re (or claim to be) believers in Jesus.

    If we really care about these people, our brothers and sisters, and their spiritual health and eternal future, we administer unpleasant medicine. It tastes horrible, it tears up our insides, makes us nauseous, and makes us view those administering it as enemies to be despised, at least at the time of its administration. But it works. It heals when it is accepted and taken as prescribed.

    The unpleasant medicine in the case of a rebellious woman is to confront her directly with her sin, tell her flat-out that she is in rebellion against not only her husband, but against God, and that until she fully repents of it and shows such repentance in a sincere manner THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. These can include, but are not limited to:

    – Denying her communion
    – Suspending her from any church positions she might currently hold (Sunday school teacher, nursery volunteer/coordinator, etc.)
    – Disallowing her from participating in church social functions
    – In the event that one can be found, paring her up with a “Titus 2 wife” (older, more spiritually mature wife) for an intense “intervention” in restoring her to the role of Godly wife

    None of this is “nice” or “courteous.” And yes, it might even result in the wife walking away from the church or even her marriage. But that is on HER – not her husband, not the congregation, and not you. In fact, rather than let her walk away, de-fellowship her if her rebellion persists, for the spiritual health of the congregation if not hers.

    All of this “unpleasant medicine” is to be accompanied by PRAYER –lots of it, constantly, from ALL stakeholders in the wife’s life.

    Odds are that the more serious and draconian the sanctions, the quicker she’ll probably experience the epiphany that “hey, this rebellion thing ain’t all it’s cracked up to be.”

    “Mean?”* No, not at all. It’s called tough love, emphasis on the “love” part. If we didn’t love them we would put them through such painful treatment.

    Keep your mission, but be careful not to cut out more of the infection you see in other ministries than is absolutely necessary. Furthermore, why not police the personal attacks so that this place becomes a place where more men and women can join your fight? Take or leave my suggestions. It’s part of my profession and gifting to offer helpful suggestions that you may take or leave, or reflect upon.

    Noted.

    Sorry, Ken, but suggesting that a potentially painful and unpleasant but necessary treatment for a patient’s serious illness be omitted because it makes both doctor and patient “feel bad” isn’t helpful at all and doesn’t do anyone any good. In fact, it causes incalculable long-term harm.

    (* “Mean” is a meaningless epithet commonly thrown about by women in the throes of anger after being on the receiving end of comments they don’t like. It’s a cousin of “racist” and “misogynist.” I recommend highly that you refrain from using it while in male spaces.)

  377. Anon says:

    feeriker said :

    “I know that I’m not seeing the whole problem, or even most of the problem, when it comes to wifely sin and rebellion. But to go out of my way to look for the full picture will take me to places where I don’t want to go, places that will make me uncomfortable, places that may be dangerous, places that might make me have to potentially risk or sacrifice something. So rather than do that, I’m just going to take half measures that I admit not only don’t really do my clients any good, but might actually cause them more harm in the long run. Besides, my clients would never take the kind of medicine that ‘the big picture’ would lead me to prescribe, so what’s the use?”

    That is precisely Ken’s position.

  378. sipcode says:

    Ken: you are manipulating words like the best of the ‘Christian’ feminist I have ever known. You might have come out of this leaving the impression you were a man if you had refrained from commenting.

    Now if that seems uncharitable, look at Christ’s words about those who blaspheme His word. There is an angry God out there and those that comment here are zealous about Him. “As many as I love, I rebuke, and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.” Rev 3:19.

    They are just passing on His love.

  379. Ken says:

    @ sipcode ““As many as I love, I rebuke, and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.” Rev 3:19.

    This is the first time I have seen a group that perceives they are to stand up with the righteous indignation and anger of Christ. That is truly quite a calling with which I am not only unfamiliar, but can’t see taught in the Word. Which apostle taught this kind of thinking and behavior? Paul might have been your guy, but he says,

    “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear” (Eph. 4:29). Is there anything in his life where he acted in like manner to what this group sees is acceptable? And he certainly knew Jesus and His will for us. Why not stand up and blast the sins of his age instead of proclaiming a risen Christ?

    I am ready to let this thread alone to focus on other things.

  380. Linx says:

    @ Ken
    “I am ready to let this thread alone to focus on other things.”

    Did you not see my post July 5, 2016 at 4:40 am, or did you decide to ignore it?

  381. feeriker says:

    Linx asks:

    Did you not see my post July 5, 2016 at 4:40 am, or did you decide to ignore it?

    Given the statements he’s left here so far, I’m doubtful that any answers you were to get from him would be either coherent or useful. Still, if I were to hazard an informed guess based on his responses to other questions or assertions here, he would probably chastise you for suggesting the donning of the Whole Armor of God, which he would warn is bulky, unnecessarily heavyhanded, and “mean” (as restorative Scripture is occasionally perceived to be). A shrink’s couch, on the other hand, wouldn’t involve him as a spiritual counselor, so that’s a no-no too.

  382. Anon says:

    Second request for Ken :

    Perhaps Ken can tell us which current laws around divorce and child custody/support are unjust to men, if any.

    It does not appear that he knows what the laws are, or is even curious to look into the subject. I notice that he is preparing to flee just as the screws tighten and simple, direct questions are being posed.

    I mean, if he can’t bring himself to find anything wrong with current divorce/custody/child support laws, then how can he purport to know anything about why marriage is in decline?

  383. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    It is clear you know only the woman can and needs to change in the situation you noted. You should at least stop any shaming of any men as that will not help your cause.

    I would walk if my wife did that, outright refusing to deal with her acknowledged rebellion. Reconciliation and restoration is impossible until she leaves that aside. Stop wasting anyone’s time, including that of the man who thought he was her husband. Treat her like the infidel she insists on being.

    You do need to study the Scriptures more if you don’t see the sharp side Jesus showed in many places. He is not the patsy many portray. He is the Lord of all the universe!

  384. Looking Glass says:

    “At the instinctive level, you perfectly understand & agree with what most of us are talking about. ”

    “At the practical level, the tactic has become the strategy, thus you’ve lost observational utility. Which is why at the observational level (so your upper cognitive), I don’t think you *can* see what is going on. It explains the oddity of this back & forth. You interpret the actions of Women incorrectly, yet you would never accept those actions in your own home.”

    Looks like I was right on the nose. Understanding what is going on doesn’t change your mission, Ken. It just removes the self-enforced blinders that you have. As if the Truth is not worth understanding at fully as possible.

    On a side-point about a Woman who’s made controlling her Husband an art-form (and the Church Men as well): it’s actually quite easy to address that. Send her to an out of the way location for 5 days. 2 days, water-only fast. Then 3 days of meat + veggies + fat (butter being really good here). Add in 5 days of prayer and removal from extensive stimuli and that’ll solve most problems. If she’s not willing to do that, she’s made pretty plain that whatever neurological issues are present, that’s not what is going on.

  385. feeriker says:

    I mean, if he can’t bring himself to find anything wrong with current divorce/custody/child support laws, then how can he purport to know anything about why marriage is in decline?

    Even more importantly, if he can’t be bothered to educate himself on these subjects that are so very critical to understanding married Christian men’s problems today, how can be possibly call himself our ALLY with a straight face and honest heart?

  386. Avraham rosenblum says:

    Ken and his opponents have a lot to teach us. They are trying to walk a fine line and it is admirable to see both putting out effort to find the right path of God.

  387. Feminist Hater says:

    You do realize that millions upon millions are living out satisfying marriages, even if they are not fully Biblical? I have many nonChristian friends who have good marriages along withCHristian friends who also have good ad fulfiulling marriages. Their wives are happy, kind and have servants hearts. This idea that one must be able to hold all women accountable for their sins in order to get marriied fails to recognize that you just need one woman who is willing to be a part of your life, love you and work with you towrads a happy marriage, to be happy. I married one who needed much change, and we worked through so that she has become the wife of my dreams. I would only wish the same for you.

    Yep, flew over your head. I know full well women will be held accountable for their sins, as will I. It’s not the judgement of God that I was talking about. The problem is the interference of daddy government, Church and laws that make a Christian man’s life a living hell if he so decides to try and lead a Biblical marriage where he is the head of the marriage. He can’t and will be constantly called to account for his errors but will see his wife get off again and again and again.

    That is why I will not get married. I am not a dolt, I will not be forced into a position that I have little to no control over but will still get hammered for if anything goes wrong.

    You need to deal with the elephant in the room when it comes to Christian marriage. Christian women openly use secular laws, secular courts and secular morals to justify their divorcing their husbands and destroying the lives of their so called ‘family’. The fruits of feminism are that marriage, as set out by God, doesn’t exist for most men and cannot exist for them. It doesn’t exist for me and therefore it is pointless, indeed, dangerous to even consider.

    Once you understand that, you might understand the anger that resides on this blog. Furthermore, I don’t even get angry at women anymore, they are what they are. The relentless attack on men though, for trying to lead, for trying to step up and do what God commands them but then being smacked down again and again, being told to stop leading from one half of the congregation and then being told to sacrifice everything by the other, being pulled every which way like a puppet… that is what angers me.

    I am not a puppet, Ken, I will determine my own methods, I will look for God, pray to Jesus and hope for his salvation in my own time. Only through that will I find peace in this world.

    Another thing, I don’t believe this blog exists to extol virtues on others. Dalrock is not a Pastor, though many wish he would be akin to one. I believe it functions as a gathering point for like minded Christian men who are, excuse my native language, gatvol at the status quo and need a place to vent and free their thoughts. Your attempts at controlling the language we use and the way we use only serves to stifle what is being created here.

    The way the old guard uses the Bible to constantly try and pull down those who look to it for salvation is tiresome. The way you do here by belittling the suffering of others or by trying to rule out their arguments based on the use of ‘naughty words’. The Bible isn’t meant to censor, it is meant to temper through words and scripture a person’s soul for the battle ahead.

    If men are not allowed to work through their anger, how then to you propose they fix their problems. Remember, there is a time for all things. Even those you don’t like, Ken.

  388. Ken says:

    @ feeriker and @ linx
    I suggest you read our post on Putting on the Whole Armor of God that we put out recently. I am a big believer in it. We know the battle is not between the sexes, or husband and wife, but against the wily Devil who wants to get both sides to be extreme and make Christianity look ugly so that He may take as many with him to the pit as he can.

    http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2016/06/who-is-real-enemy.html

  389. Ken says:

    @ feeriker
    I am a with you for the most part in calling out sin in the life of a believer. I have given Lori permission to call out my sin if she sees any of it, and she knows I will call her out if she sins. I seem to to need the accountability more than she does as she lives a very disciplined godly life. Some would say she is leading, and I would say, no, it’s my game, and she is following my clear instructions. Anything I don’t want her accountability for I tell her, which is usually my eating habits.

    The way I helped to move her from being a difficult wife to the wife of my dreams was to speak the truth of the Word of God to her. She loved Jesus, she just couldn’t see what that had to do with the issues in her marriage because every marriage book she read told her that if the husband loves her, she would naturally follow him. We all know this is so wrong now, Even if it may have been true in the 60’s.

    The key I have found when dealing with a spouse or a team member is to have them set down in writing their values and commitments. They can put down whatever they value, you can challenge them if they are missing important values on their list. Once the list is complete, ask them if they are willing to be held accountable for living out those values. Very few are unwilling to be held accountable for something the believe in, and regularly showing a wife where her behavior does not match up with her own values, is the beginning of the reflection she needs for change.

    If she will agree to healthy consequences, great. If she will not, then certainly there are some natural consequences that my occur. One such natural consequence is that a wife often likes to put her husband on an island, ignoring him, his needs, and being unfriendly. The men I counsel in these situations I at times remind them to stay put on their island and quit trying to get off until she wants you back. Be pleasant, be kind, and tell her you are ready to get back into relationship as soon as she is ready to acknowledge her sins and repent, but until then, stay on your island and live life to the fullest. She eventually comes around when you are having fun and enjoying life while she is moping and moody.

  390. Boxer says:

    Dear Ken:

    The men I counsel in these situations I at times remind them to stay put on their island and quit trying to get off until she wants you back. Be pleasant, be kind, and tell her you are ready to get back into relationship as soon as she is ready to acknowledge her sins and repent, but until then, stay on your island and live life to the fullest. She eventually comes around when you are having fun and enjoying life while she is moping and moody.

    Pardon me bro, but while I acknowledge that this might work in some cases, it sounds like horrible advice. Live as a monk, sexless, on an island, while your wife lives it up, spends the money and does what she wants. Wait until she’s done having fun and perhaps she’ll take pity on you at some point and invite you off the island (probably temporarily).

    How about this… If your wife puts you on an island, face reality. Acknowledge that everything you have is no longer yours, and that your marriage has failed. File for divorce, leave your wife the house (it’s hers anyway) and start over. This way you can at least live life on your own terms, as a man, rather than a bitch at the whim of some woman’s moods.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  391. Linx says:

    @Ken
    I don’t remember asking you explain to me the point [armour of God] that I raised.
    So here it is again.

    You claimed that tools are needed for a husband which would include the use of a therapist. Now you claim that you don’t understand the context of your own statement?
    Seeing as sin is a spiritual issue and not mental one I ask again.
    Which tools should the husband use to confront a spiritual battle? The full armour of God [The sword of the Spirit, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness, helmet of salvation, belt of truth, boots of peace] or the couch in a therapists office?

  392. feeriker says:

    @ Linx

    Forget it, brother. Ken has made it clear that he’s not going to answer your question. You can probably still deduce an answer from his long series of windy evasions in this thread, although, like I said upthread, it probably won’t be coherent (and thus not of any practical use).

    I, for one, now know with complete clarity where Ken stands on the rebellious wife issue based on this:

    The men I counsel in these situations I at times remind them to stay put on their island and quit trying to get off until she wants you back. Be pleasant, be kind, and tell her you are ready to get back into relationship as soon as she is ready to acknowledge her sins and repent, but until then, stay on your island and live life to the fullest. She eventually comes around when you are having fun and enjoying life while she is moping and moody.

    TL;DR version/Hamsterlation: Kowtow, abase yourself, suffer in silence, and kiss wifey’s a$$, no matter how clearly in the wrong she is. Happy wife, happy life.

    More TL;DR version: be her bitch

    No thanks.

  393. Linx says:

    @feeriker

    I agree. I just wanted to highlight the fact that if he is confused about his own statement (and the subsequent evasions) then how sure can he be that he actually understand the statements made by the men who he claims come to him for advice.

  394. Ken says:

    @ Feminist Hater I do not find your words to ring true in most Christian marriages when you write:

    “The problem is the interference of daddy government, Church and laws that make a Christian man’s life a living hell if he so decides to try and lead a Biblical marriage where he is the head of the marriage. He can’t and will be constantly called to account for his errors but will see his wife get off again and again and again.”

    If a wife is hiding behind the state or hiding behind anything, there is a good chance is not a Christian. Please do not confuse the two. Paul has your prescription for living with an unbelieving spouse. If the fruit of her life does not regularly display God’s ideals and fruit, then consider that her source is not rooted and planted in Jesus.

    Please do not clump the millions of faithful Christian women who may need to learn what God’s Word asks of them, with unbelieving wives who claim to be Christian but are not. The Christian woman may need instruction in the Word, and she may need her understanding husband to be patient with her, but she cannot forever violate her vows of love and service to her man without incurring the strict discipline of the Lord in her life.

    I did not realize this was a place where men therapeutically work out their anger towards women on other men. But now I do. I am sorry that the men here have had their struggles. I know just a glimpse of what that looks like, and the disappointment, frustration and anger that comes with dealing with a difficult Christian wife for 20 years. I wish you all nothing more than what I have found in my wife, which came from never losing hope and dosing all things Christian, while leading her to see where he life did not match up with the Word. I fault pastors for not clearly teaching ALL of God’s Word, but I am not angry with them, knowing that it is the blindness of the prince of this world that has too any women regularly violating their own values, and self-justifying the violation by pointing the finger at their husbands. I get that part, but the Spirit who lives inside of me gives me the grace to handle all of life’s disappointments, and challenges. Why would we let someone else control our own lives, and inner lives? Is that not what resentment and bitterness do? They rob us of the good things God has in store for those who love and serve Him. No one lives my life for me, as I must stand before the Lord some day and give an account for every word and deed I have done. Thank goodness Jesus will stand up in our place! But why keep placing more sins upon the cross, when we are free from sin, dead to sin and alive in Christ!? Perhaps Dalrock should take some time to address thees hurts and pains and help men work through them without having to cathartically lash out when a person does not see eye to eye with them.

  395. Feminist Hater says:

    Perhaps Ken can counsel us on what happens when wifey puts the husband on this island and invites all manner of other men into his… oh, sorry, I mean, her house…

    Ken’s words sound like music to the rebellious woman.

    Yea, you sit there man and take it, up the arse if needs be. Don’t you dare judge meeeee!

    Of course, once wifey has had her fun, then she can ‘repent’ and take you back… lololozlzlzoalzolaozlzllzoalz!

  396. Feminist Hater says:

    Ken, the interference is not necessarily decided by the women. Look up the ‘Duluth’ model for abuse, the secular interference of laws go directly against scriptural teachings. According to law, you cannot be the head of your wife. You are not allowed to be, that is abuse. This is the point you are missing.

    You might find a unicorn, but then again, most men will not and their wife will fully use the law against them. And their Christian status as ‘head of the household’ will be held against him in a court of law and he will be found to have been abusive and toxic. Christian law and secular law don’t mix but we live in a reality where secular law trumps Christian law, at least on planet earth.

    When Christian women fully denounce secular law and don’t use it.. only then will marriage mean anything again.

  397. feeriker says:

    If a wife is hiding behind the state or hiding behind anything, there is a good chance is not a Christian. Please do not confuse the two.

    There is effectively NO difference between the two. When a “Christian” wife decides that she is tired of her husband and that the biblical counsel that the church gives her (on the RARE occasions that it gives such counsel at all) to submit is not to her liking, she WILL turn to the State, her one true god, for deliverance. ALWAYS and without fail.

    And why wouldn’t she? After all, odds are almost certain that she attends a church that preaches the popular perversion of Romans 13 that claims Christians are bound to obey temporal authority in all things, so why wouldn’t she ultimately defer to Caesar’s authority, especially when it’s to her distinct advantage to do so? No, Ken, you cannot claim that a wife who defers to the State as a weapon in destroying her marriage is a non-Christian when the church routinely demands that its members defer to Caesar as if he were Jesus on Earth himself. This is entirely a church-created problem, a perfectly predictable one that the church is now reaping the very bitter fruits of, with Christian husbands and fathers choking on the most rotten of it.

    “Christian” wives are only as “Christian” as their options. I’m certain after many years of counseling broken Christian marriages that you are very well aware of this, as it’s impossible to NOT see, whether you care to admit to it or not.

  398. @feeriker

    Yes, this is the part that will almost guarantee failure: “tell her you are ready to get back into relationship as soon as she is ready to acknowledge her sins and repent.” If you assume as Ken does that women are inherently good, then whenever “something” stops holding her back or she gets the right therapy or rediscovers her joy or whatever, she’ll come back to you because she’s bound to be miserable in her current situation.

    But if you understand that she’s making choices and may be enjoying herself just fine, then telling her you’ll be waiting is giving her a free pass to go and sin as much as she likes with no danger of consequences from you.

  399. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ July 5, 2016 at 9:03 pm:
    “I am OK with that… now are you putting Wilson, Robert and me into this statement as wicked men with wicked behavior?”

    No. You are craven, not wicked. When I said government and culture were driving the moral decline of Christianity, your response was not that I was wrong. It was that you didn’t have to fight.

    I’m not asking you to lead a rebellion. We don’t preach sedition or violence. I want you to say the truth: “These government policies are ruining our families. They reward people for rebelling against the True and Living God. They must stop doing this or God will justly punish them.” This is the example Christ set. I ask nothing more of you… and nothing less, because this is in fact the Gospel message. The Gospel begins with awareness of evil, otherwise Christ’s salvation makes no sense. To not expose the sin of other people is to deny them the chance to seek redemption.

    If pointing out evil doesn’t change anything then why do evildoers get so upset when we do it?

  400. Ken says:

    @ Feminist Hater If your wife is bringing other men into your home, you separate and move out of the home. That’s an easy answer, and you do not go back until she shows true repentance or divorces you.

    A wife’s submission is always to be willful on her part. A man cannot force a wife to submit, nor is that God’s way. I can’t see what you would gain by having a wife denounce secular law. She either will submit and be loving or she will not. Your job is to be faithful to the Lord through it all. If that means standing up to her, then go for it, and if that means serving her to try and gain her trust, do that. Each man with a rebellious wife must seek the Lord as to how it is best to help her return from her rebellion into his loving arms. Each wife is very different and each husband leads differently, but the standard always remains the same, “do all things Christian” in your home and marriage.

  401. Ken says:

    @ feeriker I think I am seeing part of the disconnect between what I teach and advocate and what the group is thinking. When I counsel men I quickly help them determine if their wife is a Christian or just pretending to be a Christian. If she is a true Believer, we have much room to work with in leading her to see the truth about herself and her behaviors which do not match up with God’s Word. If she is not a Believer, no amount of Biblical reason will help. You must treat her as an unbeliever, stay with her and be at peace with her as best you can, and try to win her to the Lord.

    There is a third possibility that some Christian women simply do not understand who they are in Christ Jesus, and this teaching and understanding can free them.

    Clumping all Christian women together is just not right. There are millions who are hungry for what God’s Word teaches and need help dropping the scales of blindness of this world and avoiding the whispers from their fellow women. But we are seeing hundreds coming to a full realization of who they are in Christ, and in turn, finding the joy in loving and serving their husbands. It’s happening daily in Lori’s ministry. There is still lots of work to be done within the world systems, without having to fight them.

  402. feeriker says:

    Cail Corishev says:
    July 6, 2016 at 12:07 pm

    As I said upthread, Ken and his fellow travelers are trapped in the Kingdom of Nice and Courteous, where miracles are accomplished in all things just by uttering a few pleasant platitudes, which melt the stone hearts of the rebellious fairer sex and restore all to a state of holy goodness and matrimonial bliss.

    The problem comes when they try to import this into the real world the rest of us live in. Here the failure rate is epic, as in nearly 100 percent. But that’s only because all of the men in the Kingdom of Nice and Courteous possess the magical powers of the tongue that release the stone heart-melting words of magic that work wonders on female rebellion. No such men exist in the real world, so therefore the fault lies with the men of the real world for not possessing the necessary gift to immediately free their wives of rebellious spirit. Their lack of gift in this area is a sign of spiritual weakness, meaning that they are unworthy of their wives and thus deserving of being on the receiving end of rebellion.

  403. Ken says:

    @ Gunner Q I have to look up the meaning of Craven, and I am the guy out on the front lines with his name out there …. hmm…

    I will be happy to play match you in almost every area of life, and the fruit of life. This weak man sure is receiving all the abundant blessings of the Lord and so much more than I deserve:

    “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” (2 Cor. 12:9)

    Don’t mistake God’s power for weakness as one places their life at God’s disposal for service.

  404. Ken says:

    @ feeriker I know the failure rate, but that does not stop a Christian man from “doing all things Christian” to honor the Lord.

    Recently two of the men I counseled separated from their wives. They have tried grace and kindness, strength and firmness, consequences and calling out sin each and every time it happens. Now they must separate all with the goal of restoration, but it is possible they will never have their marriages restored.

    Thee is no silver bullet when dealing with a rebellious wife. In these two cases I believe that they both suffer from the mental / emotional pain of regularly violating their own stated values and such people often end up floating into the world unsaved, or into a mental hospital. They incur God’s discipline on their life daily, but cannot see it.

    So I am not unrealistic, nor am I responsible to change a wife or husband who has for years violated their values. I am just there to coach and guide and listen, and to encourage that whatever they do is something they can be proud of when the stand before the Lord some day.

  405. Looking Glass says:

    Ken is correct on one point. Use of Government Power, either actively or passively, will damn a Wife’s soul. But it’s that “passively” that’s the murderer among Christians. Why? Because that covers all of the Wives who don’t actively reject the current Law. At their core, they love the option and keep it nicely stored in case its needed to meet their immediate needs.

    For those know these parts, you should be thinking, “wait, that’s nearly all of them?”. Yup, thus the problem. Western Churches are filled with people acting nicely and supremely few saved Souls. That’s why this is a big issue, Ken. It’s wanton idolatry that you can’t even put your finger on.

  406. Linx says:

    @Ken
    “If that means standing up to her, then go for it, and if that means serving her to try and gain her trust, do that.”

    Wrong Ken. Trust isn’t earned. It is either given or not. No amount of “service” can make a wife trust a husband if she doesn’t want to. God instructed husbands to love (sacrifice) and wife’s to submit (trust). You are giving her the option to say that to not trust her husband is the Christian thing to do if her wants aren’t met to her standards. That would be no different than a husband only loving his wife if he thinks she is trusting him.

  407. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ 12:27 pm:
    “I will be happy to play match you in almost every area of life, and the fruit of life. This [cowardly] man sure is receiving all the abundant blessings of the Lord and so much more than I deserve”

    It’s settled, then. I will follow Christ’s example with few accomplishments and you will ignore Christ’s example in order to have many accomplishments. See you on Judgment Day.

    BTW, FIFY.

  408. Feminist Hater says:

    A wife’s submission is always to be willful on her part. A man cannot force a wife to submit, nor is that God’s way. I can’t see what you would gain by having a wife denounce secular law. She either will submit and be loving or she will not. Your job is to be faithful to the Lord through it all. If that means standing up to her, then go for it, and if that means serving her to try and gain her trust, do that. Each man with a rebellious wife must seek the Lord as to how it is best to help her return from her rebellion into his loving arms. Each wife is very different and each husband leads differently, but the standard always remains the same, “do all things Christian” in your home and marriage.

    Yeah, I agree, her submission is willful. I don’t know anyone who has ever said otherwise. The problem, however, is the idea that woman can constantly change her mind as she sees fit. This is why most men don’t know how to navigate the minefield of modern marriage. I agree, it’s her choice. However, a wife makes that choice when she says ‘yes’ to marriage. This idea that she can come, go, do whatever she likes and the man just sits there, takes it, and then carries on as if nothing has happened. Crazy. There are some hard and fast points when it comes to being a man. There are simple truths, the man leads and the woman follows, that is marriage. Your writings show a man waiting on the woman, completely. That is not Biblical, it’s not marriage. The man can in no way honour God when he is consumed with the wife’s rebelliousness. This is a problem that should be sorted out before marriage, not after; and certainly not 20 years into a marriage.

    You do not see what I gain by having a future wife denounce secular law? Really, or are you being obtuse? What do I gain from it? Some peace of mind, that’s what. An ounce of self-respect that at least she has the ability to grasp how destructive it can be in a marriage. Yea, she will probably renounce her vows anyway, which is why it is all pretty pointless to begin with. Your wishy washy gobbledegook not withstanding.. each man leading, each man seeking the Lord, yep, all wonderful, except when wifey decides she doesn’t like it. And then the big guns come out, and then you will see why it is folly to continue in marriage as if nothing has happened.

    Something has happened, the power balance has shifted, a man’s authority has been removed. The man cannot lead his house unless the woman has demanded it, which means she is the one in control, and only until such time as she decides ‘enough is enough’ and then she will use whatever tools at her disposal to crush his leadership.

    You are merely driving your wife to the ball, where you will wait in the car until she is finished upon which time you will dutifully drive her back. A modern husband is a tool, nothing more.

  409. Ken says:

    @ Linx I am not of the illusion that, at best, the pews in most churches are filled with anything but baby Christians who have no intention of growing up into Christ Jesus. It is not called a remnant for nothing, but my circles has lots of true Believers in it.

    Trust is given and earned. In order to trust you you must show that you are indeed trustworthy, but yes, I have to also be open to that trust.

    To tell a husband not to work on himself in remaining faithful and trustworthy, is wrong. He doesn’t do it just for his wife, but because he reports to His Lord. Besides, a husband gets to decide what is the best way to try and reach his wife. Agreed? Why take that away from him if he believes it is necessary and beneficial?

    Paul says, “I become all things to all people so that I may win a few.” I find as a husband I had to do the same with my wife, and no one thing worked, but something worked. Maybe it was just the Lord honoring my faithfulness, because ultimately He has to change her heart and mind.

  410. Ken says:

    @ Gunner Q you write: “It’s settled, then. I will follow Christ’s example with few accomplishments and you will ignore Christ’s example in order to have many accomplishments. See you on Judgment Day.”

    How about a third alternative and we both remain faithful to what God has called us to in this life and both stand strong on the blood of Jesus as we enter eternity? Success is not in itself a measure of godliness, but it can be the fulfillment of the principle that “he who does God’s ways will reap His blessings, if not in this life, the next.”

  411. Anon says:

    Ken said :

    If a wife is hiding behind the state or hiding behind anything, there is a good chance is not a Christian.

    So if 40% of ‘Christian’ women divorce, and ALL of them take alimony and child support, then it is safe to say that most supposedly ‘Christian’ women are anything but.

  412. Ken says:

    @ Feminist Hater Such scorn for all women? We must live in two different worlds. If you want to hate the feminists, they are not my friends, and they teach and impose evil upon our society… I get that, even though I refuse to be a hater of people… just their evils and sins. But to clump all women in with them is not Christian and not a realistic view of this world. You can’t tell me there are more good men and Christian men than there are good and Christian women. Sure we live in a sorry world, but at least be real in what you believe or you become no better than they are, just their polar opposite.

    You write: “Your writings show a man waiting on the woman, completely.” I am not sure what you are reading and the only things I wait on my wife for are things she cannot do because of her medical issues. Apart from that she does a great job of serving me and valuing my contributions to the family, although this interaction is keeping me from my work lately :{.

    You are so hard pressed to have someone see your reality that you have lost touch with reality. No one who knows me would say anything more than that I am a leader with a servant’s heart and I will help anyone and everyone if I can. The only one who out serves me, with me, is my wife. She will do anything I ask with a smile, never a complaint and usually right away. She comes to me and asks that I tell her how she can serve me better and not to hesitate to ask for anything. That is the kind of wife I want for all Christian men, and I am not ashamed, or can be shamed, into going away from teaching a husband’s sacrificial love for his wife. How he does this is between him and His Lord.

  413. Feminist Hater says:

    Ken, 50% divorce rate, over two thirds started by women. Perhaps you need to realise what countless men have gone through already and have never had the Church, you or others come to their rescue. I refuse to be one of them.

    Good day.

  414. Feminist Hater says:

    Scorn, for all women?! I never even mentioned ‘all women’. The laws give women power over men, it’s not about women, it’s about the very fact they have these laws that they can use on their husbands with the blessing of society. I don’t care about women, they are what they are.

    Stop shaming, it’s your only argument and it’s getting boring. Either cut it out and deal with the points, or go away.

  415. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    There are millions who are hungry for what God’s Word teaches and need help dropping the scales of blindness of this world and avoiding the whispers from their fellow women. But we are seeing hundreds coming to a full realization of who they are in Christ, and in turn, finding the joy in loving and serving their husbands.

    Many women claim to be hungry for the Word, but have put that in a back seat to their own selves in more than a few ways. Few of those will follow the lead of their husband when push comes to shove. They are supported by countless teachers who proclaim the error that submission in marriage is mutual and that a woman only has to follow a man as He follows Christ. That removes the need to follow her husband as no man perfectly follows Christ.

    Church culture regularly cuts men and especially husbands down, so a woman doesn’t have to step out to do that.

    Also repeating the point that no one can make another submit pushes the wrong focus. It is true that no husband can make his wife submit, but pushing that point doesn’t add any value. It just encourages those women to continue not submitting.

    My boss cannot make me work, but he can fire me if I do not. Emphasizing his inability to make me work would not add any value and would risk my job. Why do we repeatedly take that approach in marriage advice?

    How many times have you heard anyone emphasize the need for a wife to submit? We hear preaching on all kinds of other areas of avoiding and/or repenting of sin, yet it is woefully missing in this key area.

    Never telling wives of the strong need to submit, though noting it cannot be forced, puts them in the Lordship position of their own lives and that does not sit well with the true Lord.

    You are sounding like someone giving parenting advice who is spoiling their child with the goal of loving them into good behavior. Sometimes being a parent means pushing hard truths and consequences, yet you shy away from them. Sad, but a common theme in the Christian circles today.

  416. Jim says:

    Something has happened, the power balance has shifted, a man’s authority has been removed. The man cannot lead his house unless the woman has demanded it, which means she is the one in control, and only until such time as she decides ‘enough is enough’ and then she will use whatever tools at her disposal to crush his leadership.

    Well said.

    And Ken, stop being a brick.

  417. feeriker says:

    @ feeriker I think I am seeing part of the disconnect between what I teach and advocate and what the group is thinking. When I counsel men I quickly help them determine if their wife is a Christian or just pretending to be a Christian. If she is a true Believer, we have much room to work with in leading her to see the truth about herself and her behaviors which do not match up with God’s Word. If she is not a Believer, no amount of Biblical reason will help. You must treat her as an unbeliever, stay with her and be at peace with her as best you can, and try to win her to the Lord.

    There’s no real disconnect here. Women are hardwired biologically (and that includes psychologically) to optimize their options in life. You need to familiarize yourself with the term hypergamy if you are not already familiar with it. Within women it is a FEATURE, not a bug. ALL women are hypergamous to one degree or another, even the most “devoutly Christian” ones. A very precious few are able to rein in their most feral hypergamous impulses, in large part because they have been graced with a submissive spirit and have submitted themselves fully to their husband’s authority as head of the home and the marriage.

    But that’s not the majority of women, nor is it any of the women you regularly see in counseling (well, DUHHHH… if they had a submissive spirit they wouldn’t be sitting in front of you and in need of your services, now would they?). The women you counsel have let their hypergamy, the very worst aspects of it, gain control of their entire behavioral frame, which is why they are in a state of open rebellion against their husbands and, by extension God.

    So what does this have to do with your quoted statement above? This: even the most devoutly “Christian” women –heck, I’ve even seen it happen in several pastors wives– are liable to be overtaken by their own atavistic hypergamous impulses, their “lizard brain” or “hind brain.” That means that they can, and often do, decide on a dime that they’re unhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappy and that what God wants just isn’t gonna cut if for them, no matter how fervently in the past they professed, or even demonstrated complete submission to Him. ERGO, it doesn’t matter if a wife passes your “test” to determine whether or not she is “Christian” (such tests, any psychologist will tell you, are easily subverted by someone sufficiently sociopathic). She can toss her “Christian” faith at any moment when her hypergamy decides it no longer meets her core needs. And she’ll do so without a moment’s thought or an ounce of remorse, no matter its impact on her husband, her children, her extended family, or her church.

    There is a third possibility that some Christian women simply do not understand who they are in Christ Jesus, and this teaching and understanding can free them.

    If that’s true, then fine; teaching, counseling, mentoring, prayer, and understanding are all absolutely in order. However, is it your contention that the wife’s confusion over who she is in Christ is the husband’s fault? That he has failed to “adequately wash her in the Word?” That even if he had done so (or attempted to do so) that this would have automatically precluded her rebellion and discontent? You may not feel that way, but plenty of your colleagues clearly do.

    Clumping all Christian women together is just not right. There are millions who are hungry for what God’s Word teaches and need help dropping the scales of blindness of this world and avoiding the whispers from their fellow women.

    Ken, WOMEN ARE WOMEN, whether they are “saved” or not. They ALL are at risk for the same temptations, the “whispers,” the siren song of rebellion issued by the enemy, using other women and/or weak manginal men as proxies. They are THE WEAKER VESSELS, which makes them thoroughly and dangerously susceptible to even the most mild of temptations and distractions. Add to that the role that the current culture plays, bolstered by the guns and oppressive laws of the omnipotent State. Worst of all, there is the systemic misandry rampant in THE CHURCH today that cuts Christian husbands down and deliberately undermines their headship of their wives and families as MANDATED BY GOD HIMSELF. There has never in human history been a more dangerous time to be the Christian husband to a woman in the western world!

    But we are seeing hundreds coming to a full realization of who they are in Christ, and in turn, finding the joy in loving and serving their husbands. It’s happening daily in Lori’s ministry.

    Hundreds is nice, Ken, and God bless Lori for what she’s doing. But remember: there are hundreds of thousands, even MILLIONS of Christian women in the western world who want nothing whatsoever to do with what God commands of them as wives. THAT part of the Word doesn’t taste good and they’re determined to throw it back up if it’s ever feed to them. And they sure won’t eat it of their own accord. THIS is what we’re talking about here, the fact that the submissive, God-fearing, “ideal” Christian wives you describe (those you aspire to seeing as the majority) are a TINY minority. That is why this blog exists and why you and your peers have full counseling schedules, as well as a dismal success rate of spiritual rehabilitation of rebellious wives.

    There is still lots of work to be done within the world systems, without having to fight them.

    Ken, if that’s your attitude, you might as well hang it up and go play golf for the rest of your life.

    The “world systems” (I’m assuming that by this you mean the State, the culture, academia, media, etc.) ARE ALREADY FIGHTING US CHRISTIANS! WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO FIGHT THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT TO DESTROY US!

    I’m sure a lot of Jews in Europe felt the way you did in the late 1930s. “Yes, those Nazis are evil and hate us, but we want nothing to do with them, so we’re just going to ignore them and live our lives in peace and focus on our own community.”

    We all know how that worked out.

    Again, you may not want to hear it and you may try to avoid it by keeping your head bowed in submission to Leviathan, but you WILL, as a Christian, sooner or later have to “fight the good/Godly fight” against the “world systems.” To paraphrase Lenin, “you might not be interested in the State, but the State is interested in you.”

    Is your faith so weak that you think God doesn’t know that you –WE– are up against this terrible force of evil? Do you really think the God who loves you is going to ask you to stand up for what is holy and just without properly arming you to do His fighting?

  418. feeriker says:

    @ Feminist Hater If your wife is bringing other men into your home, you separate and move out of the home. That’s an easy answer, and you do not go back until she shows true repentance or divorces you.

    WRONG!

    If the skank is bringing other men into YOUR house, the house YOU are the head of, YOU, the husband, kick HER and her boy toys out of the house, change the locks, and make them go rent a motel room somewhere on the seedy side of town!

    There is NO reason whatsoever for any Christian man to roll over, play cadamite, and reward a woman like this for her vile, destructive, sinful behavior! If she wants to play harlot, let her do so somewhere where being a harlot is the norm! This is especially important if you have children; they should NEVER be exposed to mommy’s irresponsible, sickening behavior.

    I shudder to think of how many men you’ve given this nonsensical and toxic advice to who were irreparably harmed by it, to say nothing of their children …

  419. Anonymous Reader says:

    As I pointed out in the “it is far worse” thread, I think that Ken is mainly driven by emotion. That accounts for much of his frustration, because a lot of men don’t deal in “feelz”, and worse yet there are men here with the emotion of anger for reasons that are eminently justified.

    So he’s up against a double problem: we don’t respond to his “Touch the TV and be HEALED” emotional tent-preaching very well, and he can’t even begin to deal with the anger that betrayed men have.

    One more thing, if Ken’s really been married for over 25 years, he’s in his 50’s, either an older GenXr or a trailing edge Boomer. As such he has no clue what women under 40 are like, and doubly so for women under 30. The level of entitlement that women have is off the scale. Ken, perhaps you don’t see it because of the social circles you move in, or perhaps as an emotion-driven person you cannot see it.

    One more thing: many men here don’t respond well to emotional appeals. I won’t speak for anyone else, but when someone tries to stoke up my emotions I check to see what he’s hiding from me. Generally I’m either at risk for losing my wallet, or some of my liberty, to emotional whizbang fireworks types. That goes for high pressure sales types, too.

    In my experience, the only difference between a con man and a high pressure sales man is the con man might admit his dishonesty when he’s caught outright…

  420. feeriker says:

    BillyS said:

    You are sounding like someone giving parenting advice who is spoiling their child with the goal of loving them into good behavior. Sometimes being a parent means pushing hard truths and consequences, yet you shy away from them. Sad, but a common theme in the Christian circles today.

    That is an almost perfect analogy. “Loving” children into behaving themselves, a la Dr. Benjamin Spock, just led to an out-of-control prison population of criminal adults. Similarly, “loving” a woman into submission will just create a woman who is more virulently rebellious than ever, because she’s never felt the sting of consequences for her behavior.

    Once again, this “Kingdom of Nice and Courteous” therapy, with its “loving” treatments, explains the abysmal failure rate of Christian counseling in this area.

  421. If your wife is bringing other men into your home, you separate and move out of the home. That’s an easy answer, and you do not go back until she shows true repentance or divorces you.

    So even if your wife brings other men home and commits adultery in your marital bed, she’s still so much in charge that you have to wait and leave it up to her to decide whether to repent and come back or divorce you!

    I don’t know what we could possibly add to that.

  422. Anon says:

    Third request for Ken :

    Perhaps Ken can tell us which current laws around divorce and child custody/support are unjust to men, if any.

    It does not appear that he knows what the laws are, or is even curious to look into the subject. The concept that the laws can alter the incentives behind marriage and divorce, that too overwhelmingly in favor of the more emotional and less responsible gender (females), is beyond Ken.

    I mean, if he can’t bring himself to find anything wrong with current divorce/custody/child support laws, then how can he purport to know anything about why marriage is in decline?

  423. Anon says:

    Cail Corishev,

    I don’t know what we could possibly add to that.

    Is there a more pure definition of a CUCKservative?

    I mean, SHE is the adulterer, yet HE has to move out and wait to be (temporarily) allowed back in.

    Plus, Ken is in denial about how if the man ‘moves out’ of the home, he will still have his assets seized by the state, and wages garnished by the state. He can only visit his children at the wife’s discretion (which he seems to be ok with), but still has to pay childimony nonetheless….

  424. Anon says:

    feeriker,

    I shudder to think of how many men you’ve given this nonsensical and toxic advice to who were irreparably harmed by it, to say nothing of their children …

    It is astonishing, really. This advice has probably ruined countless lives. Not to mention that Ken is instructing men to do things that women find extremely unattractive, hence damaging marriages that might otherwise have continued.

    I bet Ken thinks appeasing a woman and doing everything she says she wants is the way to ‘win a woman over’. *shudder*…

  425. JDG says:

    If you want to hate the feminists, they are not my friends, and they teach and impose evil upon our society… I get that … But to clump all women in with them is not Christian and not a realistic view of this world.

    Once again, feminism is the normal mind set in Western society. To use the term “ALL” in reference to feminist women in the USA is not much of a stretch. The relatively few PEOPLE who do not hold to feminist ideas are far and few in between. In regards to feminism its even worse (fewer and further in between) when looking at just the women.

    You can’t tell me there are more good men and Christian men than there are good and Christian women.

    What is interesting is that the media, academia, the government, nearly the whole of society, and tragically the majority of churches in the West are all saying the exact OPPOSITE (women good, men bad). So men and boys get to hear about their faults and limitations from some where most every day. In addition, women rarely hear what they need to hear and are abandoned to their fantasy world where they have nothing to repent of.

    Then when men who should know better have the opportunity speak out against such absurdities, THEY DO WORSE THAN NOTHING. Thinking that their feminist point of view is normal (and thus correct), they join in and sing with the PC choir sung by the church of Jezebel.

    Who are the real haters of women? Is it those who tell women the hard truth with out allowing them excuses, or is it those who give women excuses to continue in rebellion?

  426. Gunner Q says:

    Ken @ 2:58 pm:
    “How about a third alternative and we both remain faithful to what God has called us to in this life and both stand strong on the blood of Jesus as we enter eternity?”

    You are faithless to God. You refuse to preach His Gospel or follow His example. Either I am right and faithfulness excuses poor works, or you are right and good works excuse faithlessness. No third alternative.

    Craven is not just a fancy synonym for cowardice. It’s an old term from dueling codes. Men who agreed to fight then lost their nerve after the fight began could declare “craven” and walk away alive but without honor or citizenship. You declared yourself a Christian authority then backed down from confronting gross injustice.

    Don’t talk to me about faith and standing strong, Craven.

  427. PokeSalad says:

    How about a third alternative

    There is no “third way.” You are with God or against Him. The “lukewarm” He will spit out of His mouth.

  428. feeriker says:

    I bet Ken thinks appeasing a woman and doing everything she says she wants is the way to ‘win a woman over’. *shudder*

    That’s obviously what he thinks (i.e., like a typical cuckservative). Again, that would explain the abysmal failure rate among couples trying to salvage their marriage by following his toxic advice.

    You are faithless to God. You refuse to preach His Gospel or follow His example. Either I am right and faithfulness excuses poor works, or you are right and good works excuse faithlessness. No third alternative.

    Yup. By making it known that it’s “not [his] mission” to confront the sources of evil head-on, and hoping to be able to continue to play ostrich by attacking the low-hanging fruit (i.e., symptoms of the problem rather than the roots of it), Ken has proved that he completely lacks faith in God for the strength and armor to do the right thing. His refusal to even acknowledge, let alone try to answer, our questions pertaining to the harsh, destructive external forces of the REAL WORLD that MUST be confronted if we are to have an effect in helping men and women heal their marriages shows the extent of his craven obtuseness.

    I’m not “picking on” Ken here, either, because Ken is very obviously not at all alone in this faithlessness and in this craven avoidance of reality. Indeed, he’s a very minor player among many more prominent and more egregious examples. We see that very nearly ALL Christian “leaders” in the west today fear (wo)man –and by extension her enabler, the temporal State– more than they fear God. This is obvious by their evasions, obfuscations, deflections, perversion of Scripture, overt contempt for men, and their pedestalizing of women, this latter something obviously done far more out of fear of suffering woman’s wrath (through her ill-gained economic power over the purse, and through her proxy, the forces of the State) than any genuine feeling of adoration. Even further proof is their deliberate avoidance of Scripture containing God’s prescriptions for man to rule over woman. THEY ARE ASHAMED OF GOD’S WORD, AND IT SHOWS! Small wonder Christian “leaders” are a laughingtock and the butt of much cruel humor in the secular world! Even smaller wonder that men in record numbers –even BELIEVING men– are avoiding church like the plague!

    What’s also a shame is that we’ve spent so many unnecessary days and so many unnecessary megabytes of digital ink here having to confirm about Ken what I’m sure most of us already suspected was true even before this thread got up and running. Needless to say, I’m not one to tear a man down in front of his own wife, but, God forgive me, I just cannot help but contrast the principled, biblical stand Ken’s wife takes on submission and the lessons she presents to her female readers with the weasely cheap grace and capitulation to the worst aspects of rebellious behavior that Ken peddles to these same women and the husbands who are the hapless victims of their selfish, godless rebelliousness. I had hoped that the link Dalrock provided in the OP to Ken’s original missive to Lori’s detractors was something of an aberration, but alas, we were not to be spared disappointment. In our extensive conversations with Ken, we simply see one more symptom of the spiritual cancer that is DESTROYING Christian marriage in America, even as it masquerades as a cure, a cancer the origins of which are centered in lack of faith and trust and a fear of the world that is greater than the fear of God.

    Tragic. That’s the one word that most immediately comes to mind, even ahead of “ironic.”

  429. I had hoped that the link Dalrock provided in the OP to Ken’s original missive to Lori’s detractors was something of an aberration, but alas, we were not to be spared disappointment.

    He ended up proving pretty much every point ever made here about the female imperative and pastors, didn’t he? If he missed any, I can’t think of them.

  430. Anon says:

    Once again, feminism is the normal mind set in Western society.

    Not just that, but Ken already agrees with 70% of ‘feminism’, without realizing it (again, like how a fish does not notice water).

    It is safe to say that Ken believes :

    1) None of the current divorce and custody laws are unfair to men or incentivize family destruction. Why would they? Conservatives would never allow such laws to pass..
    2) Women get to unilaterally decide what the moral code of the household is. Even if the woman is committing adultery, Ken is ok with the man having to leave the house and WAIT for her approval to come back, even if temporarily.
    3) Sucking up to women is the way to win them over.
    4) ‘Feminists’ would not complain about something if they did not have a legitimate grievance.
    5) Divorce only happens due to the misdeeds of a man.
    6) The only difference between a ‘feminist’ and non-feminist is a pro-choice vs. pro-life position on abortion. Even in pro-life, Ken does not believe that men should have any say in the abortion, or that the woman should be judged in any way (i.e. the Ted Cruz position).
    7) If men don’t marry, they are immature, selfish manboys. All the arguments in favor of why a man should marry are identical to why a leftist would say the rich should not oppose an 80% tax rate.
    8) There is zero difference between Marriage a century ago vs. today. The laws have not changed the incentive structure or dynamic one bit.
    9) It is courageous to bash men, since everyone does it and no one opposes it. It is not courageous to bash women, since everyone opposes it (cuck logic at its finest).

    Ken will surely say that ‘we are putting words in his mouth’, but all of his comments reveal that the above points are what he believes.

  431. Ken says:

    and @ Group

    I want to thank you for the discussions. It is always interesting trying to hear and see the different perspectives, especially the extremes. I will say you all are not as mean spirited as the feminists and anti-fundamentalist I have engaged in conversations on your polar opposite site, FG.

    It seems there are lots of hurt people out there, who now stand for righteousness to try and eradicate the particular evil they received from the opposite sex or society. I am completely anti-feminist, but will never be anti-woman. My wife and daughters and daughter-in-laws are precious to me, and are all walking faithfully wit the Lord and their husbands. There is hope in this dark world, but from everything have seen throughout Christianity, change happens with one life as Believers pour out their lives for others.

    I will continue right where God has planted me, and I will not be bullied by either side into taking a position that does not comport with what the Spirit and the Word has revealed to me. I invite some of you to get off your angry self-righteous pedestals and join the actual ministry in helping husbands and wives live out Biblical marriages and lives. I am sorry for your pain, but women are not the problem, sin and evil is the problem. The problem of the sexes started way back with the curse of the garden. Don’t give up on having a godly marriage as miracles happen every day. Selecting the right wife is the highest priority in making sure she is a Believer from the start. If she is not, all bets are off, but many nonchristian couples have good marriages in part because of lowered expectations.

    I apologize for not having the time to keep carrying on. There are lots of fires to help put out. If any of you care to recognize it, “we” see the evils out there and we go after them as Jesus advises: “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.” (Matt. 10:16).

  432. “But to clump all women in with them is not Christian and not a realistic view of this world.

    “You can’t tell me there are more good men and Christian men than there are good and Christian women.

    “You are so hard pressed to have someone see your reality that you have lost touch with reality…”

    Because of cuckservatives like Ken (and Doug Wilson), the church is where she is today. My pastor said the same and challenged me to cite examples of bad and evil women. He also reframed the argument by stating that we, men and women, are all sinners. Therefore, I, a husband and a man, have no right to talk about the nature of women because I am a sinner.

    Cucks like Ken are so immersed in the imperative and narrative that they fail to spot every eye roll, every disrespect and every attempt to usurp and challenge husbands and fathers. It is the norm for cucks and therefore, they have absolutely no idea what other husbands and fathers face but are absolute in challenging men when they discuss (let alone confront) women’s nature.

    Sadly, my wife, in her mind, believes that the pastors and elders are of a higher authority in the family than the husband. That my plan now to walk out from the church we’re attending or scale down on my involvement in its activities will be made all the more harder because I will be seen as being in rebellion when the pastor has almost certainly rejected God’s Word in Genesis, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Colossians, Corinthians. Ephesians, 1 Peter, 2 Timothy and Titus.

    Ken, I know you mean well but often the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You are doing and will continue to undermine husbands and their headship. You should stop. Really.

  433. It seems there are lots of hurt people out there, who now stand for righteousness to try and eradicate the particular evil they received from the opposite sex or society. I am completely anti-feminist, but will never be anti-woman.

    So you exit by calling us anti-woman and suggesting that we’re only saying the things we are because we’re hurt, not because they are correct. Don’t let the door hit you….

    For what it’s worth (obviously not much in this case), we’re not anti-woman; we’re only anti-unrealistic, unscriptural fantasies about women. I like women much more now that I don’t have foolish expectations of them that they can’t live up to. Yes, you see some bitterness and pain here, but you also see plenty of dispassionate analysis, so how do you explain that? Besides, pain doesn’t invalidate the message. You can be hurting and still be right about the cause and the solution.

  434. feeriker says:

    So you exit by calling us anti-woman and suggesting that we’re only saying the things we are because we’re hurt, not because they are correct.

    “Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not: Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?”
    Jeremiah 5:21-22

    I’m going to say an extra prayer tonight for those men unfortunate enough to be under pastoral marital counseling – not just from Ken, but from any pastor. We know that the advice they are being fed is killing their marriages, surely as the application of blood-letting and leeches in medieval times, under the guise of “medicine” administered by well-meaning, but medically ignorant physicians, only hastened the deaths of the sick and injured. May God give these unfortunate men the wisdom to do HIS will and put their marriages on the path to wellness, or grant them inner peace if their marriages cannot be saved.

  435. Jim says:

    That my plan now to walk out from the church we’re attending

    I haven’t attended in many years. What’s the point when gynocentric cowards pastors totally refuse to look in the mirror?

    I am completely anti-feminist, but will never be anti-woman.

    It’s ok, we understand that you either can’t read or are just too much of a coward to face the truth. No different than the heathen. Take a hike idiot. And for the record moron, no woman “hurt me”. I’m so sick of hearing that garbage. It’s the exact same crap you here from the heathens on TV and the crazy radfems (Think about that pal). I’m on this side and not yours because I’ve seen what it’s done to so many other people. But of course a dumb ass like you and ever other mainstream heathen I can think of just think, “oh, you’re just bitter because some woman hurt you!” Ha, is that all you’ve got pal? Sounding just like feminists? That’s it?

    In the end you’re worse than the nastiest radfem because you think your cowardly or clueless position is righteous. Too bad you’ve condemned yourself.

  436. Ken says:

    I did not mean to come across as writing the comments all off.You have given me lots to think about and you can’t be disappointed if I don’t just jump on in with the rest of you. My views are always going to be gracious to both sides of this issue, even as I see that feminism is doing a real piece of work on the church and society. I just don’t like the idea that keeps getting thrown at me that somehow if I don’t become militant in my views I not seeing clearly.

    I wonder how many of the comments thrown at me Dalrrock and Caldo would agree with. They are two I respect a lot, but I know them from their work. I have seen little from the discussion as to how one really addresses the difficult or rebellious wife aside from standing up to her, and how is that working? Really, I am looking for answers as to how a godly guy deals with his always upset wife when her upsets are related to control. I have my approach that worked for me but would love to hear other success stories from Christian guys.

    I am called a coward yet I was the guy who wrote 2-3 posts on the subject and took the blows by the other side… so the guys who are complaining kind of irk me. I am out of time…

  437. Ken says:

    You are hurt somehow or sick with that tirade… I hope you find your answers.

  438. Linx says:

    @Ken
    “I am not of the illusion that, at best, the pews in most churches are filled with anything but baby Christians who have no intention of growing up into Christ Jesus. It is not called a remnant for nothing, but my circles has lots of true Believers in it.”
    I don’t remember making any points about the characteristics of your circles Ken. I am asking questions and highlighting flaws in your statements.

    “Trust is given and earned. In order to trust you you must show that you are indeed trustworthy, but yes, I have to also be open to that trust.”
    Wrong again. When she said “I do” she said to God, her husband and all present that she will trusts him. You are adding the caveat of him needing to continue earning it. If she doesn’t do it (even if she doesn’t feel that she can trust him) then she is in conflict with the instructions given to her, as a wife, by God.

    “To tell a husband not to work on himself in remaining faithful and trustworthy, is wrong.”
    What you are doing is telling a husband who is faithful and trustworthy that it isn’t enough.

    “He doesn’t do it just for his wife, but because he reports to His Lord. Besides, a husband gets to decide what is the best way to try and reach his wife. Agreed? Why take that away from him if he believes it is necessary and beneficial?”
    That isn’t what you said Ken. You said that he should keep on serving her, not God, to “earn” her trust. So here is something to think about Ken. What greater show is there for any wife to trust her husband if not him doing the will of God? Or does she not trust God?

    “Paul says, “I become all things to all people so that I may win a few.” I find as a husband I had to do the same with my wife, and no one thing worked, but something worked. Maybe it was just the Lord honoring my faithfulness, because ultimately He has to change her heart and mind.”
    Paul didn’t say that you needed to be anything else but a God fearing husband for your wife.

  439. BillyS says:

    Ken,

    I will not be bullied by either side into taking a position that does not comport with what the Spirit and the Word has revealed to me.

    What a bunch of hogwash.

    You are doing just like the people in the days of the judges:

    [Jdg 17:6 KJV] 6 In those days [there was] no king in Israel, [but] every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes.

    You were presented with many Biblical principles and called that bullying.

    You need to study the Word a bit more you claim to stand on. I certainly have my own flaws and catch enough flack here, but not believing what is written is rarely a reason for it. You need to open your eyes and realize Jesus is not all sweetness and light, but that He has a side that challenges us.

    I guess you just cut those parts out.

    Believe and follow what you want, but cease claiming it is following the Word when you are only following enough of the feminine imperative to make yourself feel good. You are not necessarily right just because “both sides” oppose you. People who straddle the fence hurt very valuable parts of their body!

  440. feeriker says:

    “Trust is given and earned. In order to trust you you must show that you are indeed trustworthy, but yes, I have to also be open to that trust.”

    Wrong again. When she said “I do” she said to God, her husband and all present that she will trusts him. You are adding the caveat of him needing to continue earning it. If she doesn’t do it (even if she doesn’t feel that she can trust him) then she is in conflict with the instructions given to her, as a wife, by God.

    EXACTLY.

    Unfortunately, wedding vows these days, even in Christian churches, have all the significance of a “have a nice day” greeting to a random stranger on the street. They’re a platitude, a space-filler that means less than nothing. A pastor could read a copy of the Declaration of Independence in place of the wedding vow at a typical “Christian” wedding and no one would probably even notice.

    Ladies, by marrying your husband, you implicitly state that you trust him. If you do not trust, or have NEVER TRUSTED your husband, then you have committed fraud by marrying him!

  441. Jim says:

    I will not be bullied by either side into taking a position that does not comport with what the Spirit and the Word has revealed to me.

    Heh, you wouldn’t know what the Spirit said to you if it came and knocked you aside the head. I always hear that BS response these days. They all make the claim that “the Holy Spirit (or the Word) was speaking to me” when they come up with these absurd ideas or arguments when in reality it’s just their own bias speaking to them. Lol. It’s just a way for most of these people to avoid looking in the mirror.

    This guy is a laugh a minute.

  442. Ken says:

    Thanks Linx,

    You have been quite reasonable, its just hard to separate conversations when you have 3-4 coming at you then the 1-2 soured folks chiming in… I really have to move on as I am not getting things done I must get done. But just a response for your gracious response:

    You write: “Wrong again. When she said “I do” she said to God, her husband and all present that she will trusts him. You are adding the caveat of him needing to continue earning it. If she doesn’t do it (even if she doesn’t feel that she can trust him) then she is in conflict with the instructions given to her, as a wife, by God.”

    That is just not true… even back 35 years ago when I married. It should have been true, but she in her mind was making a conditional vow. “You do your part, and I will do mine, and I get to decide when you have done your part.” So it takes a while for a husband to figure this out, and the pastor and church gives no answers except, “love her more.” I get that part…. that was us.

    “To tell a husband not to work on himself in remaining faithful and trustworthy, is wrong.”
    What you are doing is telling a husband who is faithful and trustworthy that it isn’t enough.

    No, the godly husband is always working on himself. I am not telling him this in front of his wife, nor am I telling him this to win his wife. I am telling him this because our primary focus as a leader is always first on ourselves and looking in the mirror to insure we are leading in the right way.

    “He doesn’t do it just for his wife, but because he reports to His Lord.”
    That isn’t what you said Ken. You said that he should keep on serving her, not God, to “earn” her trust. So here is something to think about Ken. What greater show is there for any wife to trust her husband if not him doing the will of God? Or does she not trust God?

    Linx… you and I can understand the end point our wives need to get to. But unless you can tell me that you have experience focusing only on the end point, with no bridge building steps in between, then I have to keep going with the bridge making. My experience in the Christian life is that some can throw away the cigarettes and booze, the anger and other sins the day they are saved, yet others for some reason need bridges to watch them move forward into righteousness. Sure we always point to the end point, but this is where I think “work out your salvation” comes in. In reality it was our faith that is weak and needs growing. I only sin in the areas I don’t fully believe God in.

    So I can agree 100% with you as to trusting God is the end goal, and in turn the husband you have, but I also see that trusting one’s husband can lead to greater trust in God. Trust and faith are learned and grow within us, but a husband can help his wife learn to trust if he avoids doing things that appear, or may actually be untrustworthy. And besides, I will always be working with the person in front of me, as I can do little for those I am not coaching. I am always looking to encourage towards godliness and a true Biblical faith.

    “Paul says, “I become all things to all people so that I may win a few.” I find as a husband I had to do the same with my wife, and no one thing worked, but something worked. Maybe it was just the Lord honoring my faithfulness, because ultimately He has to change her heart and mind.”

    You write: Paul didn’t say that you needed to be anything else but a God fearing husband for your wife.

    To Linx: We can disagree on this one… and I gave you the verse above. Paul did not shy away from doing whatever it took to advance the kingdom. I discussed this with my wife, what she thought about the idea of my handling things during our difficult years, much tougher, much more forceful, etc. Back then she thought I was too demanding of her because I kept coming back to the root problems. We both seem to conclude that we simply do not know, but we doubt we could have arrived where we are now if I have not taken the tactical approach I finally took. I can’t explain it here, but it involved firmness, strength and lots of love and kindness. Helping her to learn to trust me, and in turn trust much more fully in the Lord. No reactions to her sins, just pressing forward with what God requires. I am probably not far from what you might advocate, but really, I can’t seem to get a set of principles from this group as to how to deal with a difficult wife. Just be a God fearing husband? OK… now what does a God fearing husband do with a difficult wife?

    What makes you so sure that it is not that in learning to trust a husband that a wife learns to trust God? I think this may be a much more likely path, although it can go both ways.

    Thanks the thoughts….

  443. Ken says:

    Can you present to me 5-6 succinct points that you believe are most important for me to grasp from this conversation.Maybe it is all the noise that keeps me from seeing what 5-6 different people are saying to me. What are this 5-6 key points every godly man should know in dealing with his difficult wife? Or whatever you think I am missing?

  444. Ken says:

    @ Billy S The above comment was for you. Thanks.

  445. Ken says:

    @ Jim, feeriker, Linx, whoever else wants to jump in… give me those 5 succinct points you think I should walk away from this conversation with. What you would want every Christian man to know about this discussion. Maybe I will make a post out of it.

  446. feeriker says:

    My views are always going to be gracious to both sides of this issue, even as I see that feminism is doing a real piece of work on the church and society. I just don’t like the idea that keeps getting thrown at me that somehow if I don’t become militant in my views I not seeing clearly.

    Once again, Ken, “nice” ain’t gonna cut it with the enemy we’re facing. “Nice” guys like you get chewed up and spat out, to the extent that the enemy does anything more serious than laugh dismissively at you while continuing to run his roughshod all over your mission field.

    Read again (and again, and again, if need be until it sinks in) what PokeSalad said upthread:

    There is no “third way.” You are with God or against Him. The “lukewarm” He will spit out of His mouth.

    That’s right. There is no middle ground, no comfy, risk-free rear echelon billet; no “light duty,” no “mediation service” in dealing with Satan and his earthly armies. It’s all spiritual battle, all the time. And yes, it can, AND WILL, get ugly. I can’t speak for all the other men here, but I have fought that spiritual battle, up close and personal, with the enemy’s worldly legions, in an ultimately futile battle to save my own marriage, and it cost me personally and DEARLY, in more than just spiritual losses. But you know what, Ken? I TRUSTED GOD AS I WENT INTO BATTLE. I prayed CONSTANTLY. I sought His guidance at EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, IN EVERY BATTLE. Despite the loss of my marriage, I TRIUMPHED in so many other ways, because God had a plan for me, that I would crawl out of the wreckage of my marriage a better man than before and be blessed with so many new gifts and strengths! It all happened because I TRUSTED HIM TO LEAD ME THROUGH THE VALLEY OF THE SHADOW OF DEATH – AND HE DID!

    You of all people, Ken, a PASTOR, a man of seasoned faith (one hopes) should understand this as second nature. When God calls us to fight the good and holy fight against a truly formidable enemy, He is NOT going to send us into battle alone and unarmed. We can face ANYONE AND ANYTHING with Him on our side! If I, a lowly,broken layslug with far less spiritual maturity and much weaker faith than you and many others here, have grasped that, have seen it in action, and have LIVED IT, if I have been able to let fear go, HOW IS IT THAT YOU CANNOT DO SO AS WELL?

    There are times when “nice,” “courtesy,” and gentleness are appropriate, yes. But eventually there will come a time for action – which will not involve “nice” at all, but will involve a whole lot of spiritual “militance.”

    – Are you REALLY fearful of a contentious, rebellious wife when you know that God sees her rebellion for the wickedness that it is and will NEVER let it prevail over righteousness?

    – Are you REALLY going to tell a Godly husband struggling with a rebellious wife, a man who may already be putting his full trust in God to lead him to do what God wants him to do in handling his wife while maintaining his GOD-GIVEN position as head of his family, to defer to the evil that God recognizes as such, just in order to maintain some elusive “peace” while sin runs unchecked and because you fear the wife’s reaction?

    – Are you REALLY willing to IGNORE what Scripture says about the proper roles and responsibilities of husbands and wives in a marriage because you’re AFRAID of what a wife will do, that she may spread her rebellious anger at being corrected in a Godly manner to other wives who will then not only turn on their own husbands, but attack you too? Are you not willing to trust God to “have your back” if that should ever happen – as long as you are acting in accordance with HIS WILL as Scripture describes it?

    And last but not least:

    – Do you REALLY think that confronting the enemy, in whatever his form, with a consistent barrage of “nice” is going to show him that you take him seriously as the enemy?

    Imagine a solider charging an fortified enemy position armed with a rubberband gun or a Supersoaker …or with nothing but a flower bouquet and a bullhorn through which he urges the enemy to “Stop firing on us! That’s not nice, or Godly!”

    Does that sound like a winning strategy for spiritual warfare that God would endorse, or have any use for at all?

    Like I said, Ken, if that’s your strategy, if “nice” in the face of an enemy determined to crush you and all of the souls who put themselves in your charge is all you’ve got, then you might as well retire and get your golf clubs out of the closet. At this stage that would probably save a whole lot of endangered souls.

  447. Ken says:

    Or perhaps point me to one or two posts Dalrock has done that captures what you all are trying to communicate. I think I understand your position even if I do not fully agree with it. Seems some of the ideas have fallen off the horse of truth as they go too far and have lost the tension that other truths place upon it. “For the husband is head of the wife …. Husbands love your wife as Christ love the church and gave himself up for her.” It is that tension, to lead, but to lead in a loving way.

  448. Anon says:

    Ken claimed :

    I am completely anti-feminist,

    No. You agree with 90% of ‘feminism’. You shrink the definition of ‘feminism’ down to the 10% you disagree with, only so that you can tell yourself that you are somehow not ridiculously biased against men.

    As I listed out below, you deeply believe in many ‘feminist’ myths, and reject the Bible wholesale.

    Shame on you.

  449. Ken,

    I think I understand your position even if I do not fully agree with it. Seems some of the ideas have fallen off the horse of truth as they go too far and have lost the tension that other truths place upon it. “For the husband is head of the wife …. Husbands love your wife as Christ love the church and gave himself up for her.” It is that tension, to lead, but to lead in a loving way.

    No Pastor Ken. You absolutely, positively, do NOT understand their position. And if you did, you couldn’t disagree with it AND be a Christian. You can not have it a 3rd way. Your position is churchianity, where you are thinking about the money you will lose and the parish you will lose if you preach only the Good News of Christ.

    I’ll make this real simple for you. We have a 27 year old bachelor working our help desk at work. He is pure Christian, places all his faith in Christ. And you know what he told me? He said and I quote: “I’ll never get married because I want a helpmeet. I want a wife who will obey me in all things. And in the United States I can’t get that. There are no more helpmeets. She can just divorce me and take my children from me, take my house from me, take my earnings from me for the rest of my life. So I’ll just do as Paul commands and spread the good news unencumbered. That way, no woman can use the authority of the state to take away everything I’ve worked so hard to build.” He’s right. He can’t get that. That is partially because there are people like YOU who don’t think he is entitled to a true helpmeet. If you did, you would be shaming women for their feral behavior. I don’t think you are capable of doing that because you don’t worship Christ Ken. You worship the dollars from the offering plate that you can get by preaching churchianity, the thing that women (in rebellion) want to hear. And you are afraid to preach the Good News and command women to be good helpmeets, to Obey their husbands because you and I both know those same women will walk right out of your church and take their dollars with them.

  450. Ken says:

    @ feeriker I am sorry too here about your marriage, and admire your fight to stay strong in the Lord. For clarity, I am not really a Pastor… although I have had an M.Dv, for 30 years, but never a church.

    I don’t get where half your comments are coming from as 2/3’s or more of what you write I agree with. I have said their is a time to be strong firm an call out sin, but never a time to do things that are not Christian. I teach my guys to stand strong against a rebellious wife and learn never to cower in the face of her upsets and control. I do not see that as not being nice. The best response is often a firm “no” with smile.

    You write: “Are you REALLY willing to IGNORE what Scripture says about the proper roles and responsibilities of husbands and wives in a marriage because you’re AFRAID of what a wife will do, that she may spread her rebellious anger at being corrected in a Godly manner to other wives who will then not only turn on their own husbands, but attack you too? ”

    I never ignore the roles…. and I teach on them. Tell me what you mean in a few sentences or examples how you “correct n a Godly manner.”

    My guys are having no issue standing up to their wives… zero problems. And yes, they catch the brunt of the upsets and sometimes others attacking them, etc, until the parents and friends find out they only got half the truth from her. Better yet, be proactive and go talk to the parents first about their rebellious daughter.

    You write: “Like I said, Ken, if that’s your strategy, if “nice” in the face of an enemy.”

    You gave me that label and you can’t lose it no matter I have told you. II will always be Christian in my response and teaching, “nice,” read my posts… the haters don’t think I ma nice. They have labeled me lots of names but not nice. But you are helping me balance them out with my image. Thanks!🙂. Go to the blog and read my posts… don’t just perpetuate labels that were wrongly assigned at the beginning of this discussion and continue …

    I am all about doing ALL THINGS CHRISTIAN! There is a lot of nice in there, but a husband has to lead, and leadership is always just, but the one being led doesn’t always feel you are being nice.

    Nice…. that is not what I would call me…. Leader, Driver, Go after goals, servant”s heart, Sacrificing, Strong, that’s me. No one thinks of me as a nice guy, but a fair and reliable guy.

  451. Looking Glass says:

    In the hopes we’re getting through to Ken, here’s a few points:

    1) The world doesn’t hate you, as a Man. No, the world wants you as a slave. You are to be used & abused to serve the ends of others, at the cost of your life & soul.

    2) It’s only You & God. Your society, your culture, your church, your friends, your pastors & elders and even your family will not defend you if a Woman turns on you.

    3) You have been setup for failure. You are told the incorrect way of dealing with everyone. See point #1.

    4) A Marriage Contract in the West is indentured servitude. If you end the marriage, you will pay dearly; if the Wife ends the marriage, you will pay even more. Your children at not yours; they’re “your children” so long as your Wife decides they are such.

    5) Most people who call themselves Christians can’t be bothered to live their faith beyond “Fire Insurance for the Soul”. Remember the part about Sheep & Goats? (Matthew 25) Most “Christians” are the goats. If you wonder why most Churches seem more about emotional enjoyment than faithful living, that’s why.

    6) Words actually mean very little. Observe what actions people take and the outcomes of those actions. Most people are fools and liars but are too wrapped up in their own self-righteousness to ever see it. To be Faithful is to see all of it. To abide in the Truth, which is what will set you free. The world, and most of the people you know, will choose bondage.

  452. Ken says:

    Now we are getting ridiculous. I have to shame women in order to be a godly man? hmm … not in my Bible. I don’t shame men for their porn addictions, nor would I shame women for their sins. It is not the Believer’s job to shame people. The Spirit convicts when we exhort and admonish in the Spirit. And where did you all get that I was a Pastor?

    That 27 year old bachelor needs to be taught by you a thing or two about trusting God. The poor guy looks around him and sees no hope, I get that. But then he should be taught by you that such godly women are probably more plentiful than he knows, and if he desires to marry, he must seek the Lord for such a woman and stop looking at the wreckage instead of the success stories. Where is the faith here? It only takes one.

    Has he heard of the Duggars? Well there are lots of families like that, and Christian women pining like he is that they can’t find a godly guy. We have to believe that God is still working in this world, so let’s go out and take hold of all His promises. I don’t trust God enough to find the right woman to be my lifelong companion and helpmeet? Ridiculous! This guy needs some good coachig which I am sure you are giving him.

    You know there are blogs that try to match up these conservative Christian kids.

  453. BillyS says:

    Ken, this is a rough area.

    You should probably just read here for a month or even more before jumping in again. Let perceived errors slide by and just read. That will give you the proper scope of things.

    I will work try to work on a few summary points soon (perhaps tomorrow).

    The main point is that Christian leaders must not shy away from calling sin exactly what it is, especially in the case of a wife harming her marriage. Jesus was very soft at times and harsh at others. The modern Church often takes only the soft side and keeps losing ground in the culture because of it.

    Paul was also quite harsh, to some, including those who wronged him. He clearly did not see a conflict with calling people out on their sin and being “all things to all people.” Context would be appropriate there, though it could bear an entire teaching itself.

    It reminds me of a recent teaching our church had in home fellowships 2 months. It was on forgiving. I brought up the first time that I do not believe the Scriptures command us to forgive those who do not repent. We can and should often do so, but this forgiveness teaching has led so many Christians to step out of the culture that a rot has grown even more prevalent as Christians forgive the unrepentent.

    We should not let ourselves getting eating up by bitterness and such, but that does not mean we always have to forgive. That is an entirely additional direction, so I will stop on that now.

    A really quick summary:

    – Men are beat down all the time at church. The disclaimers about “bad men” are not needed in today’s environment because they merely give cover for rebellious women, even if they are accurate. Several here will and have freely noted that men can be bad, but the point here is not to argue that point. We need to focus on the log (rebellious wives) before taking out the splinter (bad husbands).

    – Women have often picked the really bad husbands/boyfriends/etc. themselves, so share the responsibility for those situations. Blaming the men ends up only cutting most men who are doing what they can to be proper.

    – A rebellious woman should be called out on her rebellion just as much as if she became a practicing witch. Both are equivalent in God’s eyes per the Scriptures.

    – A husband leading his wife “as Christ leads the Church” may seem quite harsh at times, especially by the standards today. Note how Jesus treated several parties in His earthly ministry and how he spoke to some of the churches in the Book of Revelation. Do a study and write out each and every one of those Scriptures and then ponder them for some time. Do the same for the ones where he was soft in both places as well for the proper balance. I find that he was light on the repentant, but such a study would certainly be worthwhile whatever you find.

    – Preach the responsibilities of women as much as you preach the responsibilities of men. Don’t spiritually cross dress the issue, as Dalrock has written about (use the search function on the site or at “site:dalrock.wordpress.com” to a Google search to find that). Cease giving disclaimers or trying to make the message go down better. It never will to those who are rebellious. You do not have to be as sharp as some here, but don’t defend the status quo in this area.

    I am likely missing some key points and might trim this more, but hopefully this gives you some things to consider. The main key is to find what is truly written in the Scriptures, not the sacred cows that have been idolized in the modern churches.

  454. feeriker says:

    I never ignore the roles…. and I teach on them. Tell me what you mean in a few sentences or examples how you “correct n a Godly manner.”

    Sure. In fact, let’s use the Scriptural “gold standard” for this topic, a passage that churchian “counselors” and “pastors” react to in a manner similar to the way vampires react to silver crosses.

    Ephesians 5: 22-24:

    22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

    23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

    Pretty straightforward, no? The “in every thing in verse 24 kind of puts the fine point on it in rather unmistakable terms, no?

    Note that there is no “Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let wives be to their own husbands in every thing, except when they don’t feel like it, they’re not attracted to their husbands anymore, they have better things to do, they don’t like their husbands’ decisions, their husbands are not catering to their wives’ wants, their husbands aren’t being affectionate enough, there husbands aren’t being ‘nice,’ their husbands aren’t supporting them in the manner to which they think they’re entitled, or they prefer the advice they get from Dr. Phil, Oprah, their ‘life coach,’ or the hot personal trainer at the gym down the road.”

    As for the “correcting in a Godly manner,” how about this?

    “OK, so read the three verses above and tell me what they say, in your own words. So, what are these verses telling you? OK, so what part of “in every thing” do you not understand? You understand it all, in perfect clarity? OK, good. Now, tell me: given that you understand what these three verses say, that you are in no doubt or confusion as to their meaning, and their message is, in your own words, “crystal clear” to you, why are you disobeying them? Please cite the verse that provides you a conditional exemption from obeying the instructions here.”

    1. She understands what the verses are telling her to do.
    2. She knows that there is no “out” for the wife listed anywhere in the verses.
    3. She can provide no scripturally valid justification for rebellion.
    4. It is now clear to her that her rebellion is not only against her husband, but against God.
    5. Since she knows what this implies, she should next be asked if
    a. She knows she is sinning against God and if that means she will cease and desist, or
    b. She knows that she’s sinning against God and doesn’t care, because she knows that God
    isn’t going to make her suffer any immediate negative consequences*

    If she responds with 5b, then it’s time for more serious sanctions, which God Himself would not disapprove of, given that he has made the husband “head of the wife” IN ALL THINGS.

    We really didn’t need to have this conversation, did we, Ken? You know full well what I was talking about and what needs to be done.

    (* This is another thing you clearly don’t understand about women, Ken. They do NOT respond to abstractions, positive or negative. If their behavior doesn’t produce an immediate response that is either positive or negative in its effect, it doesn’t register as a concern at all. In this case, if God doesn’t immediately punish the wife for her rebellion by causing something palpably draconian to befall her, then she isn’t being punished. Very much like having to punish a dog immediately for something it has done wrong, or it won’t understand why it’s being punished.)

  455. Linx says:

    @Ken
    “What makes you so sure that it is not that in learning to trust a husband that a wife learns to trust God?”

    And here is the issue. You confuse the feeling of trust with the action of trust. Marriage between a husband and wife is based on the relationship between Christ and His bride (church). What you are indirectly saying is that Christ should keep on proving His faithfulness and trustworthiness to His bride based on her standards for her to submit to His will. So husbands should keep on proving there faithfulness and trustworthiness to their wife’s based on her individual standards in order for wife’s to learn to trust God.
    You are putting the cart before the horse.

  456. feeriker says:

    Now we are getting ridiculous. I have to shame women in order to be a godly man? hmm … not in my Bible. I don’t shame men for their porn addictions,.

    No, you just shame them for not doing their wives’ housework for them.

    Come on now, Ken. You’re really coming across as grasping and desperate here. You KNOW good and well that MEN are shamed CONSTANTLY by churches and “Christian” counselors (VERY telling too that you used the old “porn addiction” cliche above in talking about man-shaming), even if done “in jest” (which is just soft cover for below-the-belt potshots in most cases).

    In your article that Dalrock linked from the OP, your own jab at men for not putting on an apron and augmenting their lazy wives’ sloppy housework is the epitome of shaming!

  457. feeriker says:

    Further to my last, it’s also very telling that IBB’s suggestion to “shame” WOMEN is what sent you over the edge. Not surprising, just very telling.

  458. Thanks Linx,
    You have been quite reasonable, its just hard to separate conversations when you have 3-4 coming at you then the 1-2 soured folks chiming in…

    There’s “divide and conquer.” You really have all the SJW tactics down.

    I really have to move on as I am not getting things done I must get done.

    You keep saying you’re leaving, and then you don’t. It’s as if you don’t really mean that, but are hoping that by saying the conversation is over, you’ll get us to stop talking about this. I don’t think that will work.

    Can you present to me 5-6 succinct points

    No. Your condescension and passive-aggressive accusations have earned you no such thing. If you can’t keep up with the conversation, too bad.

    I was sympathetic to you at the beginning, by the way. If I’m “sour” toward you now, that’s purely due to your words here.

  459. http://www.hefty.co/letter-of-apology/

    This has gone viral on social media. My wife has just shared the article with me (via a text messenger) without saying a word. For all of my 23 years being a church-going Christian, I have never, ever heard anything from the pulpits addressing such issues equally between husbands and wives.

    How should I respond as a loving and trying-to-be-Christlike husband?
    Ignore?
    Remind her of her vows?
    Remind her of Proverbs 31?
    Begin the almost futile search for a 2 Timothy older woman to be her mentor?
    Or capitulate?

  460. Linx says:

    @chokingonredpills.
    “My wife has just shared the article with me (via a text messenger) without saying a word”.
    Ask her why she is sending you spam.

  461. Looking Glass says:

    That dude is never getting laid again.

  462. Lost Patrol says:

    @chokingonredpills.
    “My wife has just shared the article with me (via a text messenger) without saying a word…
    How should I respond as a loving and trying-to-be-Christlike husband?”

    In my mind, where I don’t have to live with consequences – “He chose poorly.”

    Anything like that out loud could lead to global thermonuclear war.

    Sorry for the sarc if those questions aren’t rhetorical. It’s because I don’t have actual useful advice but wish I did.

  463. PokeSalad says:

    I am ready to let this thread alone to focus on other things.

    How can we miss you if you don’t leave?

  464. feeriker,

    Further to my last, it’s also very telling that IBB’s suggestion to “shame” WOMEN is what sent you over the edge. Not surprising, just very telling.

    That is why I intentionally phrased my very short (and will be my ONLY) response to Ken in the manner in which I did. I wanted to bless him out for the fraud of the Christian that he apparently is. We all know that the young colleague of mine at work is behaving entirely rational AND Christian but Ken went ape-sh-t-ballistic when that young guy put two-and-two together to live a proper Christian life. Of course it is a complete and NON-STARTER for Ken to shame women and it was important for us to get to that point by having Ken admit that.

  465. Feminist Hater says:

    Ken asks if we are to shame women when they do wrong and commit sin… I hope he asks that as a rhetorical question for if I were to ask the same but insert men instead of women, I think his answer would be as plain as day. As if the Church doesn’t shame men for using porn, come on Ken… they shame men for all our failings, including the failings of single mothers, of criminals brought up by single mothers, they blame men for wars we had no say in, they blame us for deaths of children we had no will in creating. It’s a never, ending stream of blame for men, and the shaming never stops, not even on Father’s Day. Women need a good dose of shame, for their whorish ways and much, much more.

    For one who had no problems railing it on men for not doing enough around the house when a bunch of feminists bitched about his own wife saying she submits herself to her husband and then has the audacity to claim he wasn’t trying to cut men down at the knees when he did exactly that. Do you not understand Ken? Your wife said that she does what God commands her and does it with a happy heart. A bunch of sniffling cuntbags complain about her and others like her being doormats for their husbands, thus saying indirectly that God doesn’t know what he is doing, i.e. rebel against God’s command. They resist their command to submit by saying their husbands are brutes who don’t help and don’t appease their wives enough; and you come along, fearing I don’t know what… and give them exactly what they asked for. Full on permission to bitch more at their husbands and rebel more.

    They say, “see, this man’s wife submitted to him after years of grinding work on his part to love her and nourish her in the ways of the Lord, and only then did she submit willfully and with an open heart. You, husband must do the same and only when I am ready will I submit and not a moment sooner and don’t you even try to use scripture on me, boy, I will so quickly use divorce on your arse, you won’t be able to tell your head from your butt cheeks! Now, go do the dishes!… or else!”

    Did you hear the other side of the argument before railing at unknown men from some unknown place where you have no authority, nor responsibility for them or their lives or their children? They have to deal with the fallout, Ken, not you.

  466. BillyS says:

    That 27 year old bachelor needs to be taught by you a thing or two about trusting God. The poor guy looks around him and sees no hope, I get that. But then he should be taught by you that such godly women are probably more plentiful than he knows, and if he desires to marry, he must seek the Lord for such a woman and stop looking at the wreckage instead of the success stories. Where is the faith here? It only takes one.

    It is called counting the cost. This man has and has chosen a way that is certainly consistent with what Paul wrote. (The commitment to push the Gospel, not just live life in a personally beneficial way.) Nothing to chastise about that.

    [Luk 14:28-32 KJV] 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace

  467. craig says:

    chokingonredpills says: “How should I respond as a loving and trying-to-be-Christlike husband?”

    Ignore. Any reaction at all is a kind of reward (it shows she got under your skin), so do not reward with a reaction. If she presses you on it, jokingly tell her you’d happily forward a counterpart letter by a wife empathizing with her husband’s hardships, except you couldn’t find one on the whole internet.

  468. couldn’t find one on the whole internet.

    That took some digging. The woman presented with that claim would flip the script and point out that the man had wasted a ton of time and that therefore he cannot say he is ever busy at work when she calls. Because he searches the whole internet.

  469. Avraham rosenblum says:

    It is nice to see people standing up to feminism. I am afraid the problems that it caused are so great that it will be hard to reverse the damage. But it is encouraging to see people call out the mistakes and the person that was blindingly going after them and telling others to follow those mistakes to be rebuked publicly. And to see he had the courage to face his challengers and not duck the bullet is also encouraging. This is certainly a good augury .

  470. BillyS says:

    @Avraham,

    God redeemed people and transformed the society in Rome (and afterward). He is quite capable of doing the same now. The road is guaranteed to be rough, but things can change, even if that change takes time.

  471. Pingback: Perspective: It’s All in How You See It, Part 2 – Sandra M. Urquhart

  472. Jimmy says:

    Why is Ken seeking a ‘list of succinct points’, when others have already provided that upthread, notably Anon with his 9 points?

    Ken is disingenuous. He also has displayed a shameful lack of courage.

  473. feeriker says:

    Looking Glass says:
    July 7, 2016 at 2:00 am

    Your “List of Six” is SPOT-ON and is worthy of a complete, in-depth post of its own.

  474. Dalrock says:

    @Chokingonredpills

    http://www.hefty.co/letter-of-apology/

    This has gone viral on social media. My wife has just shared the article with me (via a text messenger) without saying a word. For all of my 23 years being a church-going Christian, I have never, ever heard anything from the pulpits addressing such issues equally between husbands and wives.

    How should I respond as a loving and trying-to-be-Christlike husband?

    I didn’t see this until just now. There isn’t any one right answer, but given what you shared I think I’d be inclined to respond with:

    Heh. A single man with a job who knows how to grovel! Send his contact info to [pathetic divorced woman you both know] before another divorcée snaps him up.

    If you had laid the groundwork previously, you could also respond with:

    Yup. That kind of ugliness is everywhere. Envy sells, and misery loves company. Don’t let the harpies get you down!

  475. Ken says:

    @ BillyS Agreed that there is little if any Biblical teaching on forgiveness for those who will not repent. The issue must be clear sin, and not one’s [perspective on what is sin and what is not.

    You write: “The main point is that Christian leaders must not shy away from calling sin exactly what it is, especially in the case of a wife harming her marriage. Jesus was very soft at times and harsh at others.”

    I never have shied away from calling out sin… but never harshly as I am not Jesus or Paul.

    “Paul was also quite harsh, to some, including those who wronged him. He clearly did not see a conflict with calling people out on their sin and being “all things to all people.”

    Yes, I did not harm anyone in this group here, nor have I sinned, yet some have been harsh. One cannot excuse their sin of anger against someone who has done them no harm under an umbrella of “Hey look at Paul and Jesus, who sometimes, rarely, were angry and strong worded.” If this group is wanting to do what some proclaim and change the world, they can’t do it if they chase away the ones most likely to join them, even part way. This idea of all in or not in at all is absurd and it puts one’s own thinking and ideals as above those of others in the body of Christ. Dialogue yes, but in your face, or leave if you don’t get what we stand for… unchristian.

    “Men are beat down all the time at church.” Partially agree there is a problem there, but “all the time?”

    Hardly in my church and the ones I have attended. Just the times the pastor speaks on submission, then he tends to go after the guys instead of the women… I get that. But the rest of the time… 97% of the time… there is no man bashing or woman extolling.

    “Do the same for the ones where he was soft in both places as well for the proper balance.”

    That is the balance I have been talking about… I agree with your broad summary overall.

    “Preach the responsibilities of women as much as you preach the responsibilities of men. Don’t spiritually cross dress the issue.”

    It’s funny you somehow believe that I don’t teach responsibilities equality when the focus of our ministry is to women. Read the blog. It’s a 95-5% focus on women. To have a 5% focus on men irks some here? Look at the body of work… not one post or two. If we can’t say anything related to a husband’s responsibilities and sins, then your off base. Men have to carry their own blame. You say it right here… many are weak and pathetic in the church, run over by their wives, but they carry no blame? Of course they do… its not all on the pastors shoulders here, as there is plenty of blame to go around. Most men like their wives driving their spiritual lives, so why not all their life the wife thinks.

    The only thing I was maybe not as cognizant of before, and may made a mistake in the post, was trying not to cross dress the issue.There is no Biblical basis for this idea, only a practical one that many women will not listen if the responsibilities is crossed with her husbands. Yet the scriptures do exactly that.

  476. thedeti says:

    “It’s a 95-5% focus on women. To have a 5% focus on men irks some here? Look at the body of work… not one post or two. If we can’t say anything related to a husband’s responsibilities and sins, then your off base.”

    It’s Lori’s blog. It’s not exactly ideal for Lori to be lecturing men on how they should live their lives.

  477. Ken says:

    @ Looking Glass

    1) The world doesn’t hate you, as a Man. No, the world wants you as a slave. You are to be used & abused to serve the ends of others, at the cost of your life & soul. (Slave / Servant … kind of the same thing, and we are called to be servants of all. Is it so bad that I pour out my life serving others?).

    2) It’s only You & God. Your society, your culture, your church, your friends, your pastors & elders and even your family will not defend you if a Woman turns on you. (Partially true, but two of the guys I am helping their churches and pastors have sided with the men, and but they still have washed their hands of the situation).

    3) You have been setup for failure. You are told the incorrect way of dealing with everyone. See point #1. (Can’t agree. I know too many men who “get it” or are “getting it.” Other older men who never lost their role as leaders on their family. You must be referring to the young men? I have four in my family and all are leaders of their wives and homes.)

    4) A Marriage Contract in the West is indentured servitude. If you end the marriage, you will pay dearly; if the Wife ends the marriage, you will pay even more. Your children at not yours; they’re “your children” so long as your Wife decides they are such. ( What about all these women working who make more than the men? Or just working in general… For too many men they do pay dearly for failed marriages and its not their fault. I hate the no fault divorce laws.)

    5) Most people who call themselves Christians can’t be bothered to live their faith beyond “Fire Insurance for the Soul”. Remember the part about Sheep & Goats? (Matthew 25) Most “Christians” are the goats. If you wonder why most Churches seem more about emotional enjoyment than faithful living, that’s why. (Amen ! I agree with this. How are you doing?)

    6) Words actually mean very little. Observe what actions people take and the outcomes of those actions. Most people are fools and liars but are too wrapped up in their own self-righteousness to ever see it. To be Faithful is to see all of it. To abide in the Truth, which is what will set you free. The world, and most of the people you know, will choose bondage. (Please visit the blog and see that we are proclaiming the truth. I cannot agree more with you on this.)

  478. Ken says:

    @ Feminist Hater I already said I am not about shaming anyone. If the truth of God’s Word shames them, it’s probably about time fort some people to find their guilty conscience, but it is never my purposeful mission to shame people. “He who is without sin cast the first stone.”

    There is enough shame to go around everywhere if you care to see it. I am ashamed at some of the things I have done… how about you? How about we speak to help the Spirit convict people of their sins, not shame. I have never shamed anyone that I can recall, maybe a child of mine who was caught in sin, but not a friend and certainly not a stranger as I don’t know their story.

    What you write is the funny part about this group:
    “They say, “see, this man’s wife submitted to him after years of grinding work on his part to love her and nourish her in the ways of the Lord, and only then did she submit willfully and with an open heart. You, husband must do the same and only when I am ready will I submit and not a moment sooner and don’t you even try to use scripture on me, boy, I will so quickly use divorce on your arse, you won’t be able to tell your head from your butt cheeks! Now, go do the dishes!… or else!”

    We first went semi viral over my articles on Dealing with a Difficult wife. Abuse! the FG group accused us of teaching when I taught that a godly husband had every obligation to stand up to his difficult and rebellious wife. I got the opposite of what I get from this group. No one mistakes that how my wife and I argued for years, precisely because I would not allow her to walk on me or continually get her way. I was loving, kind, not always gentle and nice, but tried to do “all things Christian” while believing that if God gave me the responsibility to lead her, then he also gave me the tools necessary to deal with her rebellion. Things got much better for years, but the real breakthrough and repentance, change of heart, was when she read “Created… ” by Pearl, and saw herself for who she really was. Then everything I was telling her for years began to make sense to her. Still she needed remap her behaviors and this I was able to help her with, and she bit her tongue a lot she says.

    So I am one of the few success stories out there, and I can give others from my coaching. The key is for the husband to “do all things Christian,” and call his out out on her sin as he is open to her calling him out on his sins. Both working together to conquer sin the home, all the while making sure he is leading as his Spirit leads him. No one solution fits every marriage. Our job as husband is to present some day our wives before the Lord as sanctified. I am one who is ready for that, and maybe, just maybe, some in this group could learn a thing or two if you have ears to listen and can get off of this “don’t be a nice guy” and other bad thinking ideas. I am not sure where that stuff comes from, but not my Bible. I can be nice, and yet be firm with smile. That is what is missing in most husband’s leadership toolbox.

  479. Anon says:

    Ken said :

    (Slave / Servant … kind of the same thing, and we are called to be servants of all. Is it so bad that I pour out my life serving others?).

    You don’t demand anything of the sort from women.

    Partially true, but two of the guys I am helping their churches and pastors have sided with the men,

    Given your views, there really is no chance of that. There are many ways in which feminist pastors *appear* to side with men, while siding with women all the same.

    (Can’t agree. I know too many men who “get it” or are “getting it.”

    Wrong. You have demonstrated that you have no idea what women find attractive and what they find repulsive. This is further evidenced by how much wiggle-room you allow in case the woman commits adultery.

    What about all these women working who make more than the men? Or just working in general…

    There are not ‘all those’. There are extremely few, since women overtly seek men who make more than them. Your example is very, very uncommon.

    (Amen ! I agree with this. How are you doing?)

    Your agreement is too vague to be of any value. Until you recognize the shocking extent of female misdeeds, and how most churches are really fountains of feminism, you will not come close to seeing the truth.

  480. Ken says:

    I am thinking about your comments and I wonder if I have not years ago determined that 80% of churches out there are not really Christian churches. So when the group speaks of churches I am thinking about my circle of churches, not Presbyterian and Methodist. It was 25-30 years ago those churches … for the most part… left the faith.

    It’s been a while since my wife demanded anything of me, but I remember those days. The new post above that chokingonredpills linked is classic wife melt down and husband apologizing and running in to do whatever she wants. We are taught that in our church marriage classes. I see that. She’s happy, he’s serving her, but based on manipulation. There should be nothing wrong with a husband serving if it is his choice… manipulation should not be tolerated. But I assume you would agree that she can ask for help when she needs it, just stop the manipulation with her upsets.

    Over and out for now…

  481. seventiesjason says:

    Why do we have Christian counseling??????????

    When I had lost everything. The job. The career. The six years of private undergrad and grad school was now utterly useless……..alcohol became a bigger problem and cocaine was the gasoline thrown on already out of control fire by that in itself. Depression was already bad but suicide was seemingly the only option making itself like the only way out…………I left the condo, then on to the small apartment, then to the dingy and filthy studio, then on to rotting in a residential hotel…..and teetering on the edge to the unforgiving streets of San Francisco (SF is bearable if you at least have a place to live…..’all you need is love’ is what everyone says there…..yeah…..try livin’ on it in a pretentious place like SF). The death of my mother……the alienation and distancing of my family, and few friends I had. Death would be a welcome.

    Got news for all the ‘Christian Counselors’ out there. God, The Holy Ghost arrived, and things got shaken up. Quick. Counseling……and that of the Christian variety is the usual very ‘christian’ thing we do today. We take the secular world’s view of a soft science (or anything for that matter)….put a ‘christian’ stamp on it, and voila! We now have ‘christian counseling’ we do the same with movies, TV, music (ughhhh the state of contemporary Christian worship and Christian pop…shame on us!!!) and think just because the world “Christian” is used that it’s perfectly okay. Just as “good” as the secular world’s offering and we have created a whole cottage industry.

    There was indeed a time when Christians were at a forefront of the times…….we’re usually ten to twenty years behind today. I know this. I lived in the secular world most of my life and was left for ruin by it.

    God, The Holy Ghost came. We in Christ today for the most part don’t believe in Christ’s healing. We don’t wait on God. We don’t fall to our faces in prayer to Him, the one who gave all! We can barely be bothered to sit in church longer than an hour. We can barely pray for each other, let alone have a prayer meeting and have less than 1% of the regular church goers at our respected places of worship show up for it. We don’t dare talk about sin, and even less about hell. Does Christian counseling discuss hell with a contentious woman? How about a porn addicted man? Doubtful. Impossible! It would collide with all the secular practices and protocols of being a licensed professional in that field. You might lose you license to practice if you talked about very real things. Christian counseling has “blessed” therapy / spiritualism and has made it acceptable; but adds a few lines about Jesus and what He said. Do Christian counselors demand prayer that has a couple on the floor after three hours praising God? No way. It doesn’t surprise me that the early church spread like wildfire. It was the church of Jesus Christ. They healed the sick.

    When The Holy Ghost arrives, you don’t need counseling, Christian or otherwise, you just need the obedience to listen to Him. Christian divorce is climbing, Christian marriage will still decline. Churches on every corner. The Internet. Blogs. Books. Podcasts. Bold preachers (who cater only to women and belittle / shame men). Bibles everywhere! Information all over the place……and no talk about prayer, repentance, sin, and hell…….a really good light show, the women’s retreat, men berated and women glorified……

    So much for what so many were martyred for. Wait on the Holy Ghost I say, and when it comes……you understand that how far we have indeed strayed. Praise God for my sobriety. Praise Him for lifting me out of a gutter. Praise Him for making me clean. Praise Him for bringing me to the Cross. Praise Him for making me into a man….

    Not a preacher. Not a church. Not a counselor. Not AA or NA. Not The Salvation Army. Not a podcast. Not a self-help book. Not any of these things except Jesus Christ.

    Revolutionary indeed.

  482. BillyS says:

    That is your problem Ken. You can’t be both over and out at the same time. “Over” means you expect and will wait for a reply. “Out” means you are done an will not hear any reply. Common mistake for those outside the military.

  483. feeriker says:

    I am thinking about your comments and I wonder if I have not years ago determined that 80% of churches out there are not really Christian churches.

    I would assert that it’s MUCH higher than 80 percent, judging by the utter spiritual barrenness of most of them, and as evidenced by an almost complete absence of systematic evangelism by any randomly-selected church of ANY denomination.

    So when the group speaks of churches I am thinking about my circle of churches, not Presbyterian and Methodist. It was 25-30 years ago those churches … for the most part… left the faith.

    Again, it’s not just the long-established, traditional Protestant denominations that have effectively abandoned the faith. Nearly EVERYBODY today is a churchian franchise, a purveyor of ear-tickling “Jesus-themed” entertainment. They’re “playing church,” selling cost-free “feelgoodz” to people who have no interest whatsoever in truly following Jesus and making Him the focus of their lives above all else. Thus the complete absence of any Fruits of the Spirit.

    Seventiesjason nailed it in his most recent post above.

  484. Ken says:

    @ seventiesjason You don’t know how much we agree on this issue of counseling. Instead we must stand firm in what the Word of God says as it speaks to the Believer. Our job is not to counsel in psychological terms, but to encourage and exhort, speaking the truth of God into the lives of fellow Believers.

    You have locked into the greatest truth or power to transform that there is… a New Life in Christ. What changes lives is the transforming work of Christ as His Spirit lives in and through us. But unfortunately too many do not first know who they are in Christ Jesus, “dead to sin and alive to Christ,” “New Creatures in Christ,” “freed from sin” and bondage; and if they have heard it, they often have a weak faith in believing it.

    I think you and I will agree that this is the starting point for all of the Christian life. To allow the Savior who saved us for eternity to use that same Spirit to make us alive in Christ Jesus day by day, moment by moment. It is this good news that stopped my sin and my wife’s rebellion. It’s not that we did not know these things, but we had to believe them to see the promises of God come true in our lives. Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God. Let’s keep sharing His Word.

    I am not opposed to psychological counseling, but it is too often man’s ways of helping which become only a band aid to make people feel better about their lives. If I can feel good without needing the power of Jesus in me… am I further away or helped? I think we have to trust that if they are saved God has them on His journey for their lives.

  485. Ken says:

    @ feeriker Like with Seventiesjason I am not going to defend the modern Western day church, but I wonder if my view of the global church is not broader than yours in some ways, seeing the mighty work of God in churches, and yet quite unfamiliar with the mainline denominations to know if any heartbeat still exists. I don’t like the reports I am getting, but understand that within the denominations can be go do churches to go along with the ones who have lost their Biblical center and sometimes the faith altogether.

    My background is missionary kid, from a good line of missionaries, so I was taught to look on the western church with some skepticism 50 years ago. The rule was find a church where the pastor was willing to teach the whole word of God, and under that definition, it may be far less than 20% still completely healthy, but that is not to mean that these other Bible believing churches are not winning souls and advancing the Kingdom. Sure they are causing Christianity to lose its foothold, and may erode like the rest of churches have done over time, but then one more young man will step up and start his church where true Believers can come and worship around His Holy Word.

    @ Billy S I am trying to move on to other projects, but the “nice guy” in me wants to give people a response if they took the time to write me. I know, I need to toughen up and you are making me me tougher🙂. Thanks for the conversations and I wish you the best on the other side of the world. If you get to So. Cal. contact me and dinner is on me. The closest I get to India is Paris.

  486. Linx says:

    @Ken
    First you say

    “It’s that silver bullet he is looking for … He understands that he has to stand firmly on God’s Word and calling for his life, but the tools for dealing with emotional illness “deep rooted sin,” are few, especially when you can’t afford the therapist every week. Sin and its strongholds… with many of these sin going back to childhood.”

    Now you say

    “You don’t know how much we agree on this issue of counseling. Instead we must stand firm in what the Word of God says as it speaks to the Believer. Our job is not to counsel in psychological terms, but to encourage and exhort, speaking the truth of God into the lives of fellow Believers.

    So which is it Ken?

  487. Ken says:

    Linx as you well know language and thought has its limitations, especially when pecking on a keyboard. My view of the steps in helping a husband get back into relationship with his difficult wife are somewhat the following, but not limited to them. The time for the therapist is at the end when all hope seems lost, and remember the couple had often been through counseling before they got to me:

    1) Be sure to be who you are called to be as a sacrificially loving husband.

    2) Set the standards for your home, that your desire is that all things done in it are Christian, and you will not accept sin without calling it out, or tolerate anything that does not conform to “common human decency.”

    3) Teach your wife who she is in Christi Jesus and that the Spirit of the living God can flow in and through her IF she surrenders Him, and believes Him. This requires study of God’s Word in the area of New Life ideals… dead to sin, freed from sin, alive and a new creature in Christ Jesus. Pint her to the root of the problem seen in Gen 3:16.

    4) Try to get her communicating regularly with an older godly woman you trust and in Lori’s chat room.

    5) Husbands are not to provoke their wives or children to anger, but to live with them in an understanding way. So kindness, generosity and a servant’s heart are always a part of how one must live the Christian life, even when a wife is difficult, unkind or rebellious.

    6) Husbands, do not become part of the problem by allowing your wife to trigger you, and provoke you to sin. Stay above the fray with a smile, and a nod of the head, all the while calling sin “sin” when you see it and asking for accountability.

    7) If she will agree that her sin is indeed sin, and will accept reasonable consequences, then help her with her behavior by imposing the agreed upon sanctions when she sins. If she will not meet the standard of “common human decency” tell her what reasonable consequences you will impose, and impose them.

    8) If she will not agree to accountability, and continues in sin, determining in your mind if she is saved or not saved. If she is saved you will go down one path, and if not saved you will seek to live at peace with her, so much as it depends on you, without trying to chase down her every want and desire and need and upset.

    9) Learn to say “no” and stand firm with kindness. You are not to respond positively to anything she asks you in an upset. Explain to her that had she asked you nicely you may have agreed, but now the upset has made it impossible for you to follow her because you will not relent to her controlling bad behavior.

    10) Try to have daily devotions with her and be in the Word. Use a strong devotional like Spurgeon’s every day and pray with her if she will allow you to do so.

    11) Never lose hope and keep trying to hold her accountable for her misbehaviors, but don’t be overbearing or nit picking, or flippant. If possible, overlook some offenses and clump them together in an email for her to think about. Using email or letters allows you to get your point across and let it digest, if she is reading them. It helps memorialize things. Work on the major things and ignore some minor things so you do not seem manipulative or controlling. Recognize that if it is not done of her free will and heart it will not last long or have any lasting benefit, except for times you may be training.

    12) If the upsets continue, and the anger, yelling, belittling, disrespect, and other uncontrollable behavior, and she will not listen to your calm reason, then take whatever steps you prayerfully believe will be helpful in helping her. These could be many, from getting others involved, parents, pastor, counselors, friends.

    13) Stay in the Word and prayer yourself so as not to fall for Satan’s lies yourself. If you believe that separation is a necessary next step, be sure you have worked this through with some other godly believers who you trust.

    14) When all you have tried does not seem to be bearing fruit, and you can see that she is locked in a stronghold of sin that may go back into her childhood and beyond to previous generations; she knows she can be freed in an instant by believing in the work already done for her on the cross, but will not choose it, then I am, out of steps, except to allow her to go her way and see if she can find solace and healing through counseling. Some do, some get more messed up, and a lot depends on the counselor and how effective he/she is at calling sin “sin” and pointing her to Jesus.

    Consider that if the root of the problem is Gen 3:16, that once married, the poison now has a husband for which they can use it. My wife admits that it was not until she got married that this need to control sprang up mightily in her, and yet she had no interest in controlling anyone but me. The husband is not poison to her, but her rebellion is, yet “She sees her husband as her poison.” That may be why husbands are not as effective in helping wives than another older godly woman. But as her head, they still have to try.

    Typical text to me from one of my guys today, “She wants me to share the blame, and blames me for being a bad leader, that is why she is always disagreeing with me and getting upset.”

    We both know what this really means, but the battle can be long in insuring that I, as a man of God, can stand before the Lord some day and give an account as how I lead my wife and how I did everything I could in my power to keep my marriage together without living in the sin of being under her control. Beyond that, I am responsible for my wife’s sanctification, but only as far as she will allow me to do so, just like Christ and his rebellious church.

    Remember, I usually get the worst of the worst cases after they have tried counselors, or are in counseling, and I make no illusion that I can fix anything. All I can be is supportive and keep pointing the men back to God’s Word and what worked in my marriage.

    There is a time to stand up and be firm, other times to be gentle and kind, and through it all be loving to a wife. You married her, so she is not beyond your ability to lead her. Will she follow, maybe not, but you lead anyway and leave no room for doubt that you have been the faithful one when you stand before the Lord someday. The fact that a wife may be more “godly” or spiritual than a husband is no excuse for husband to run from his God given responsibilities to lead. Her godliness must include allowing a husband’s leadership in her life, or she is missing her biggest sin, the desire to be in control.

    Now to your point… when emotional and perhaps mental illness becomes apparent, and nothing a husband can do can help, it’s time to call in the therapists, if for no other reason “cover” in a time when men get blamed for not doing enough. One couple just separated and they both agree he has done all he can for her. She needs to find help now on her own because any help he gives her is misperceived by the BPD she suffers from. They have at least been able to put a label on it, but I don’t have any answers for them from here except to go back to the top of the list and keep trying, if they are a mind to do so. Some say a year of therapy dealing with the root problems of inappropriate bonding in childhood holds answers, that is beyond my paygrade and knowledge base.

    This is where I am open to the therapist. Mental emotional illness that will not respond to God’s Word is welcome to go find answers wherever it can. What many of us in this area of ministry are finding is that once a wife willfully chooses to rebel, so not just hidden rebellion, but willful rebellion, she often declines into a pattern of one or two mental/emotional illnesses. The brain will map with negativity and bitterness, and it can become an almost permanent organic thing. But is that not what God’s word promises?

  488. Thank you for your advice and comments. I didn’t respond to her sharing of the link and have not set things up in such a way that I can use Dalrock’s advice.

  489. Pingback: Dalrock explains that career women have penis envy. | Farther Right

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