Why doesn’t this 28 year old manboy want to become respectable?

The Daily Mail has a new article about a 28 year old man who doesn’t want to grow up and start a family of his own.  Instead, he chooses to live with his mother and go to grad school for a degree in experimental cinema.

This is the kind of case Traditional Conservatives regularly wring their hands over.  Why are so many men refusing to man up?  The answer is obvious, but not something most want to talk about, or even admit.  In the West we have spent the last 50 years tearing down the position of husband and father, and now we are surprised that more and more men (on the margins) don’t aspire to become husbands and fathers.

The 28 year old momma’s boy isn’t named in the article, so I’ll call him
“Giovanni”.  Why doesn’t Giovanni want to strike out on his own?  I don’t have stats for Italy, but my guess is women are delaying marriage there just as they are in the US;  this greatly lowers the importance to young men of signaling provider status.  Steady Eduardo isn’t sexy, but Giovanni the brooding experimental cinema grad student is another story.  Part of the problem no doubt is he is being coddled, funded in his pursuit of worthless degrees.  But part of the reason has to also be a (perhaps unconscious) desire to avoid the contempt Western culture reserves for husbands and fathers.  The reason Giovanni’s is in the news is his divorced father was just ordered by the court to continue paying child support for his 28 year old son:

The middle-aged man was at a civil court in Modena, northern Italy to challenge a condition of his divorce settlement which stated he should pay for his grown-up child’s education.

But the judge said the young man’s course should be supported – despite the father’s claim that he ‘does not deserve any further financial support, having made no effort to find work to support himself.’

Your father is a chump Giovanni;  let that be a lesson for you!

The Daily Mail frames this as strictly an issue of courts requiring “parents” to support their grown children.  Technically this is true, as married parents have been ordered to continue supporting adult children as well.  But this isn’t just about the legal requirement of parents, and especially fathers, to financially support adult children.  While the obligations of husbands and fathers have expanded, the authority of husbands and fathers has evaporated.

More importantly, these legal changes are merely the formal codification of the changing social attitude towards husbands and fathers.  It isn’t just Western courts that have contempt for husbands and fathers, it is the culture at large.  This includes what we would call conservative culture, including conservative Christian culture.  The lack of respect is critical, because respect is an even greater motivator for men than sex is. We can fix this, as soon as we stop denying what we have done and repent of it.  In the meantime we can continue wondering why Giovanni and countless others like him across the West don’t want to be just like dear old dad.

Edit:  Welcome Instapundit readers.

This entry was posted in Child Custody, Child Support, Daily Mail, Denial, Disrespecting Respectability, Divorce, Fatherhood, Instapundit, Weak men screwing feminism up. Bookmark the permalink.

115 Responses to Why doesn’t this 28 year old manboy want to become respectable?

  1. Pingback: Why doesn’t this 28 year old manboy want to become respectable? – Manosphere.org

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  3. Anonymous Reader says:

    While the obligations of husbands and fathers have expanded, the authority of husbands and fathers has evaporated.

    This right here sums things up very well. Expanded responsibilty, zero authority. Father as “sugar daddy” not “paterfamilas”. Meanwhile conservative feminists retire to their fainting couches over some sort of scary “Patriarchy” monster that lurks somewhere under the bed.

    In the meantime we can continue wondering why Giovanni and countless others like him across the West don’t want to be just like dear old dad.

    Touche’!

  4. Feminist Hater says:

    Lol, there divorced dad has to keep paying for everything, including the continued destruction of his son’s life and people wonder why men don’t want to be a dad or a husband – better known as a soon to be ex-husband or mule for short…

    I luv it!

  5. I keep thinking Dalrock has a special Google News filter for horrible stories. Unfortunately I believe he is wrong, we cannot fix this. This happened because of biology, just as the previous phase happened. It seems we buy what the market is selling. Smarter people should know better, but they don’t. It’s incredibly creepy that they don’t know better. But at least we know what they’re selling.

  6. Joe says:

    Getting married these days, to western women anyway, is suicide. The best you can hope for is a life of whining and whinging about how little you provide and having to put up with her adulterous behaviour, but that’s only the lucky 30%. Other other 70% wind up dead broke, owing tens of thousands in back child support and a shocking suicide rate that would invite presidential intervention if it was women killing themselves. Personally, I just left the whole mess behind and went to Asia. I’ve written off the west, it’s a basket case and may return once the civil wars begin, otherwise I’m staying put where I am.

  7. Il Barone says:

    Giovanni, and all the other Giovannis, should keep doing what he is doing. Worse is better. Until the boomers who abandoned their gardens to the weeds so they can go play are forced to repent.

  8. thedeti says:

    The article isn’t actually about child support. The divorced dad was ordered to pay educational expenses for the 28 year old son. It doesn’t say he lives with his mom, though he might.

    For once, we can’t say this one is about a woman wringing money out of an ex husband. This is about a stupid 28 year old man who can’t or won’t get his shit together. As you say, it’s no surprise he’s like this, though, as all of Western society is encouraging and enabling young men and young women to live like this.

    His 28 year old female counterpart is a garden variety carousel rider. She has sex with hot men, a new one every three months or so, and goes on weekend “holidays” with Reynaldo the hawt bartender, Alejandro the cabana boy, and Mike the gym rat. She’s enrolled in a master’s program in “women’s studies” which her hapless old man pays for under court order.

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti

    His 28 year old female counterpart is a garden variety carousel rider.

    No, his 28 year old female counterpart has finally decided she’s done with the carousel and wants to find a man, marry and settle down. She’s frustrated and angry because she can’t figure out where all the Good Men have gone.

    Giovanni’s theoretical wife, on the other hand, is currently a 24 year old carousel rider…

  10. Opus says:

    Underlying this matter are a number of facts not mentioned in the linked DM article:

    1. The Italian State (I presume) no longer fund tertiary education. That has I think always been the case in America but it is new in Europe (and England) – as tertiary education expanded massively we ran out of other people’s money to fund the expansion. I was being fully supported by the State – did I appreciate it? – up to the age of twenty-five. Never accumulated student debt!

    2. If Italians are like Spaniards (and I am guessing that they are) remaining in the parental home after twenty-one is a normal thing for adult offspring. I couldn’t wait to escape and did so then but then I am not European – I prefer independence and Brexit to luxury. Americans are perhaps likewise.

    3. The birthrate in Itay is, I seem to recall, down to 1.4. Italy is thus going extinct as surely as did The Shakers. No point being a Nationalist if you are not also a Natalist; Natalists must by default be anti-Feminist and thus Feminists cannot be Nationalists. Remind yourself of that the next time the world is outraged by a Cologne Taharush.

    Experimental Cinema must be the equivalent of Social Justice Studies and equally useless – think Jonathan Butler at University of Missouri – son of a multi-millionaire protesting his oppression. I think we can assume that the likes of Antonioni, Leone, Visconti, Bava and Pasolini crafted their technique as assistant directors and the like on other people’s movies and NOT at college. We need Apprenticeships and not useless degrees which cannot be failed. Has anyone ever seen – and enjoyed – experimental cinema? The only time I saw such a movie, I voted with my feet and walked out, making it clear to other patrons as I did so that they should do likewise. There were a series of objects photographed from a distance; the camera moved in close, slowly, to the point of being unable to focus on the object and then slowly moved out again: that was it. People receive grants for this nonsense. I felt as if I had been conned as much as if I had entered a clip-joint in Soho to discover that there was no nudie show – nothing – and the only thing to do was exit. I know that is true because that happened to me.

    In the comments at the DM one person says that they are Italian, aged over seventy and still supporting a forty-three year old daughter! That commenter says that the only escape is death.

  11. PM says:

    When my friend got divorced he had to pay for college tuition for his daughter, here in the U.S. Her mother encouraged her to take as long as possible. He took out loans for the tuition. She spent 6 years getting her degree and then got married and became a stay at home mom. Now she barely lets him see his grandkids and he isn’t welcome to visit for holidays or other family events because his ex wife doesn’t want to see him and his daughter doesn’t want to get in the middle of it.

  12. Dalrock says:

    @Deti

    The article isn’t actually about child support. The divorced dad was ordered to pay educational expenses for the 28 year old son. It doesn’t say he lives with his mom, though he might.

    For once, we can’t say this one is about a woman wringing money out of an ex husband.

    The article states that this was about him contesting his divorce decree, so we certainly can say it is about a woman wringing money out of an ex husband.

    As for the son living at home, the original Telegraph article (which has a soft paywall for me) stresses that the problem is about adult children, especially men, living at home. You are right that it doesn’t say whether this particular man lives with his mother, but this is framed as what the case represents:

    The case underlines the country’s problem with “bamboccioni” – spoilt “big babies” who refuse to leave home and instead sponge off their parents…

    Around 65 per cent of Italians aged 18 to 34 still live with their parents, the highest percentage of young stay-at-homes anywhere in Europe, according to Istat, the national statistics agency.

    There are also cultural factors at play – Italian families are tight-knit and many adult children relish living at home, where “Mamma” cooks pasta for them every night and takes care of their laundry.

    Young Italian men who are particularly attached to their mothers’ apron strings are known disparagingly as “mammone” or mummy’s boys.

  13. Now here’s the really bad news: nature abhors a vacuum, and this vacuum is going to be filled by the antithesis of western civilization itself – Islam. Don’t think it can happen? Just look at Scandinavia, where feminism has taken over, indigenous men have become persona non grata in their own homeland, and correspondingly yet counterintuitively, Islam has gained a massive foothold and is on track to becoming the demographic majority within a few years. There is only one thing that can explain a complete cultural and demographic pole shift like this, and it is a collapse of a culture caused by that culture turning against the main pillar of its own strength – that being fatherhood and manhood in general.

    And remember, this is not “Islamophobia”, because in order to be a phobia, the fear has to be irrational.

  14. MrTweell says:

    Insanity is everywhere, it seems. My parents made it clear that adults took care of themselves. They’d help or take an adult child back in if needed, but we’d better pay what we could and get out as early as possible. A sister took advantage, would not pay them back, and now complains bitterly because they wrote her out of their will. I have followed my parents’ lead – my children were allowed to stay at home free only if going to college, otherwise they pay (and that’s the extent of my help).

    If I was tasked to support someone in this manner, I would sell my possessions and leave the country. Any ‘child’ of 28 who sues for support needs to take care of themselves.

  15. feeriker says:

    There are also cultural factors at play – Italian families are tight-knit

    Is that really true anymore? The Italian family seems to be in as much of a disintegrative freefall as its other European and North American counterparts.

  16. feeriker says:

    Now here’s the really bad news: nature abhors a vacuum, and this vacuum is going to be filled by the antithesis of western civilization itself – Islam.

    Say what you will about Islam, but for all of its many obvious faults, systemic disrespect for and hostility toward husbands and fathers is not one of them.

  17. Dalrock says:

    @Freeriker

    Is that really true anymore? The Italian family seems to be in as much of a disintegrative freefall as its other European and North American counterparts.

    Until very recently at least this appears to have been true. In 2009 Italy had the third highest percentage of adolescent children living with both parents, at around 85%. But in 2012 the NYT ran a damning piece on the surge of Italian fathers going through the family court meat grinder.

  18. Pingback: Reaping the fatherless society we’ve been sowing | Crowhill Weblog

  19. Mad Arab says:

    My family life was one of pure woman as I grew up in a house of all women(mom and 3 sisters). My dad was a monster that mom tossed out. He was the extremely rare type that beat the shit out of all of us with almost no provocation. I was 2 when he nearly beat me to death. No exaggeration. My sister still has scars on her back from when he used the buckle side of the belt to beat her. She was hardly 10. So my mother did what she had to do to get him out. And that left to the women.

    I will soon turn 44. It has been almost 20 years since I was married and 17 years since I had my divorce. You do the math.

    My overly feminized rearing also included my mothers in home daycare with 2-3 cribs in my bedroom growing up. I had milking mothers sitting on couches. I had a dozen female cousins at my house all the time. The neighbors (women) were over all the time. On most days I was the only male (other than a toddler or 2) in the house.

    I grew up believing a lot of what all those women had to say about relationships. My family came from the middle east so I had a super nurturing mom. She was alone in never bad mouthing men. Not even my dad. So I formed this mental image of the goodness of women.

    It took me a long time to kick that image but I always had a sickness in the pit of my stomach when it came to marriage and kids. When I did get married I knew the moment I said my vows I was not happy. But I was 24ish and ignored my gut. All of those women wouldn’t lie to me… Would they?

    I was now stuck. She had a lot of debt I was unaware of. At 25 I had to pay her $30,000 tax bill and baggage. I paid off every penny and never borrowed a cent.

    After the divorce I still struggled with the idea of being single. Because that would go against what society deems baaaaaaaaaad (said in my sheep voice).

    In my middle 30’s I settled in to a good routine. Plate Spinning. I was happiest then but pressures from family and some friends kept me going back to the well. I got serious again with a girl and again it bit me.

    I am now breaking up with a great gal— but the beauty of it all is I kept telling her she will leave me. She wants kids. I do not. She wants family life. I do not, yet. But as she leaves I am going through pure relief. I have not invested in to a relationship like I did 8-9 years ago. Never again. She was the NAWALT!!! But there really is no such thing. That is why I never invested to much. Back to spinning!

    But on to the sticky. (I added the long bit as proof of my gained wisdom. Or stupidity).

    After being divorced almost 17 years I still get things in the mail and a phone call (rarely though) about some shit she got in to. People looking for her. Some have even tried getting info from me. Of course I say nothing. I act like it never happened but in the laws eyes it did. And since it did I am forever tied to her. Nothing, so far, that they can come after me for. But the link is still there.

    Even with girls I dated exclusively over those years I have gotten a rare correspondence for something they were involved with.

    Moral of the story: Do not in anyway tie yourself to a woman. Nothing. Do not even change your relationship status on your Unsocial Media pages to reflect anything other than you being single. Do not entangle yourself. Nothing!!! Learn from this mans mistakes.

  20. BuenaVista says:

    Minor footnote: after college, I played a year of basketball in Italy. Most of the guys (all adults) lived with their families. These were the alphas of the town. There was no opprobrium associated with the practice, and indeed, it was fun to go home with Enrico or Francesco etc. and sit in the kitchen and have supper after the games. One aspect that made it unusual for an American was the evident respect and affection the mother held for the son.

  21. Hells Hound says:

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2015/11/sex-in-city-lied.html

    Nobody in the mainstream media, much less the social conservative sphere, complains when women do the same thing.

  22. Feminist Hater says:

    I’m torn over the issue of children moving out. The prices of property have exponentially increased. Trying to just get your foot in the door is an immediate 30 year home loan. Jobs are in short supply, and one needs to move to take opportunities when they arise. One cannot do that with a 30 year home load. It is dangerous to live on the street or in a bad neighbourhood. Given those odds, and if the children actually paid their way whilst staying home and were also saving a bit here and there, not studying useless crap and stealing their parent’s wealth, I would have sympathy for them.

  23. BillyS says:

    The idea that every family must live in its own mansion is not really a good thing and not historically accurate. I have become more convinced that extended families have great merit, with the proper balances.

    This may be because I have no direct family anymore, with parents and 1 sibling having passed on, but this “every man is his own island” leaves a lot to be desired as well.

    That doesn’t negate the points in the OP, but living at home could have merit, especially if the younger generation(s) learned from their elders in such a situation.

  24. dfd says:

    Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

  25. Pingback: About “women delaying marriage”. – The Practical Conservative

  26. PokeSalad says:

    Now here’s the really bad news: nature abhors a vacuum, and this vacuum is going to be filled by the antithesis of western civilization itself – Islam.

    To my mind, this goes back to a comment I made a while back about there being a strong psychological undercurrent to the ‘welcome with open arms’ attitude (at least initially) that Europe had for hard-core, young Islamic men to come flood their countries – they emasculate their indigenous male populations, and then import the Islamists. You look at some of the PR pictures of Merkel and other EU “leaders” with these migrants and one can’t help but get the creeps.

  27. Charity begins at home.

  28. Minesweeper says:

    @boydoesntmeetgirl , i fully believe the infestation of i.s.l.a.m-ism in europe is Gods punishment for letting feminism, atheism\science-ism run amok. They are the unholy trinity and there is nothing they wont destroy.

  29. Minesweeper says:

    Its like watching the seeds of destruction being sowed in every area of European life.

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  31. Durasim says:

    I don’t have stats for Italy, but my guess is women are delaying marriage there just as they are in the US

    Here are some stats that are a few years old.

    http://www.istat.it/en/archive/103373

    People are marrying increasingly late. The average age for a first wedding is 34 for men and 31 for women.

  32. Mark Citadel says:

    I don’t know what’s more horrific. Insight into the termites eating away at the woodwork of one-great cultures, or the enemy from abroad waiting to storm the gates. Ever hear that saying “future’s so bright I gotta wear shades”? Well, the future is so dark right now, I’m gonna need Dynamo’s lightsuit from The Running Man.

  33. I do not share Dalrock’s optimism that the culture can be turned around. Just look how the article is framed! It is the fault of Peter Pan Boys who refuse to grow up. They will NOT acknowledge how Dad is treated or entertain the possibility that treating Dad badly just might make sonny-boy less motivated to become Dad. The blindness on this issue is willful and I think they know exactly what they are doing.

    You only recently posted from Vox Day about the communist conspiracy and the well laid plans that they have followed EXACTLY as they laid out that they would. None of this is an accident, although I think just how effective they have been has come as a surprise to many.

    They win because women are going along with it since it enhances and increases their POWER. Women ACT AS A GROUP. Marx called it a group “in itself.” When a group realizes they are oppressed and form a group identity, they can then ACT AS A GROUP to further their in-group interests. Women act AS A GROUP to further the FI.

    Men do NOT act AS A GROUP to defend their interests…EVER. Most men support the FI over any interest of men. Men who dare speak out are ridiculed and mocked as unmanly just for mentioning the problem!

    Don’t believe me? Check out this thread:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/4g45o5/slight_rule_change_regarding_red_pill_woman/

    Go to the MASSIVELY DOWNVOTED comments that I made. Keep in mind I am a moderator on that forum and frankly, not to toot my horn but seeing a moderators comment massively downvoted like that is pretty incredible. Amazing, really. What was downvoted? I called out some Red Pill Woman moderators (former) for unfair and absolutely terrible behavior- and even Red Pill guys downvote. Sure a lot of the downvotes could be so called RPW’s but a LOT of them are Merpers (Married Red Pill guys). Why? It sounds like a guy complaining. You should just ignore or agree and amplify. This is a loss of frame to acknowledge and list bad behavior. Etc Ad infinitum. My answer is simple: I am not trying to FUCK these women. I am not gaming them. I am trying to win an argument in the public arena. Yet just getting into an argument with a woman is seen cringe worthy.

    You certainly should not argue with a wife or lover, but how can you win if you are unwilling to even argue with women who hold power?

    Answer: You can’t. Check mate. Last one out, turn out the lights.

    Come Jesus.

  34. What are we doing to really do though? Even the men who post here talk about how they are going to send their girls off to college to get gang banged and their souls destroyed before they ever talk about the fake marriage our sick and dying culture “promotes”.

    Got to make sure that girls are all powerful. Can’t ever let any bad bad man try to create a family!

    So much better to send a girl off to gang bang school where she can learn to earn her own money and enjoy her gang bangs. Never let a girl depend on a man.

    Even here that’s what I read

  35. True, but it’s not worth it. Islam as a solution to subversion of patriarchy is like curing a headache by shooting yourself in the head with a pistol.

  36. Dave says:

    One can only imagine the effects of all these in the next 20 years or later.
    Even now, most white married couples in the west don’t have enough kids to sustain the population. The effect of many “Giovannis” on the population 20 years down the road is hard to imagine. The Hispanics, Africans and Muslims are known for having large families, and unless White America begins to have more kinds in earnest, they will soon become a minority in their own land.
    Even then, the inevitable can only be postponed for a time; all countries that matter on earth will eventually be swallowed up in a one world government under the NWO. As is very clear in the book of Revelation, when the events of that book took place, the earth was no longer addressed by countries. Multiculturalism at its peak.

  37. Heh, what else can we say? NICE GUYS FINISH LAST. I know that may sound like mere satire, but seriously, it falls right in like with what we have observed about modern female sexual selection.

  38. Dave says:

    What are we [g]oing to really do though?

    Short of a true heaven-sent Holy Ghost revival, America, as well as the world, is doomed.

  39. American says:

    No wonder Italy is importing as many young male immigrants as possible. They need a thousand eligible males just to find one stupid enough to marry one of their women libeling themselves to the Italian court system (and penal system should they fail to pay) for the rest of their natural lives.

  40. Whitney says:

    ” While the obligations of husbands and fathers have expanded, the authority of husbands and fathers has evaporated”

    This is everything that has happened. Very succinct yet profound

  41. Gunner Q says:

    Opus @ 10:20 am:
    “1. The Italian State (I presume) no longer fund tertiary education. That has I think always been the case in America but it is new in Europe…”

    American college is heavily funded by gov’t. It makes up the price difference between in-state and out-of-state tuitions and a lot of college loans are ultimately from the Federal Treasury. Anytime you hear an American complaining about student debt that can’t be cancelled with bankruptcy, he’s talking about a gov’t-backed student loan.

    “Has anyone ever seen – and enjoyed – experimental cinema?”

    In California, home of Hollywood, experimental cinema means hardcore porn, “avant-garde” means “rear entry” and stay the hill away from anything “beautiful”. I would bet hard cash that Giovanni picked his degree only for its “side benefits” and now has N>100. This poor father is being forced to subsidize his son’s sex life in addition to his wife’s.

    Feminist Hater @ 11:32 am:
    “I’m torn over the issue of children moving out.”

    Just so long as it’s the father’s choice whether Junior remains at home.

  42. Heidi_storage says:

    Interesting. This is the same country where a wife is facing jail time (if convicted) for not cooking and cleaning for her husband.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/12143122/Italian-wife-faces-jail-for-not-doing-housework.html

  43. MarcusD says:

    It appears that the first step in adding women to the draft has passed:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-28/congress-fixes-sexist-draft-votes-require-women-register-selection

    One comment: “This law is meaningless if women are not threatened with jail and loss of rights (voting, etc..) if they don’t register.”

  44. Dalrock says:

    @Heidi Storage

    Interesting. This is the same country where a wife is facing jail time (if convicted) for not cooking and cleaning for her husband.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/12143122/Italian-wife-faces-jail-for-not-doing-housework.html

    That is interesting. However, the Telegraph notes that this case is extremely uncommon, really unheard of. Whereas the NYT piece I linked to up thread, and the story I linked to in the OP are about the common pattern.

    I suspect the case was pretty quickly dismissed, since I can’t find any follow up stories since early February. That is the only way I can see the western press losing interest.

  45. Feminist Hater says:

    Just so long as it’s the father’s choice whether Junior remains at home.

    Well yeah, government seems to stick its nose where it doesn’t belong. It should be the parent’s choice at the end of the day. With all the consequences that entails. The purpose of being a parent is to provide the best possible outcome for your children’s lives, that means preparing them for their life ahead but also not coddling them.

    In the end, all you have is family, that is the only people you can really rely on. There are many men who did the right thing, went to work on oil rigs and other places. Got burnt and then committed suicide because they were homeless. I’m pretty sure their parents would rather they had come home but I could be wrong. I still sympathize though, with those who truly are trying. Not so much with those who are mooching off mom and dad.

  46. @StringsofCoins
    Wait what, you saying these men command that level of influence realistically?
    The reality is that biological and cultural influences surpass a father and his modest concerns for a college going daughter.

  47. greyghost says:

    Even here that’s what I read.

    StringsofCoins Your frame of mind is wrong. You are still thinking women can be saved. Bad move. You need to think purely about saving your son and nothing else. A college educated woman that makes good money doesn’t qualify for spousal support. Marrying any other woman by law, culture and church is stupid and irresponsible (thinking with your dick) When I send my daughter to college I’m thinking of a fully masculine red pill husband for her. To try and make her a traditional; ball and chain worthless women would be fool hardy. I would make her attractive for some sorry chump believing in the blue pill lie. It is about reality and the law. (real guns and bullets). Only a red pill man that understands the law and women in general would be who I would want (respect) as a son in law. That is the only man a modern woman with all she (any woman) has been taught and immersed in can respect also. have her marry young and be worth more than her pussy otherwise a masculine man of today will see no worth at all in her. No matter how (barefoot and pregnant0 she claims to want to be) By law, culture and church there is no submissive wife. Start with hat as your foundation and work from there. there is no room for captain save a hoe, so don’t do it. She will only loose all respect (sexual desire) for you anyway.

  48. Carlotta says:

    I am very familiar with Italian culture (both friends and family). While it is common for adult males, especially the oldest, to live at home with their parents it is not common to do so while being supported financially by the parents. It is more of a safety net for both the parents and the son. The son enjoys a high standard of living and comfort while finishing his education, starting a new job or business or taking over more and more in the family business. He is also able to marry early but give his wife and children a nicer home, the help of the parents and enjoy a much better financial position as newly weds then they would endure by themselves. The parents slowly turn over the running of the household to the son or sons and are able to retire comfortably with assets they worked their whole lives to get. The mother never has to work outside the home, as she actually goes from one provider to at least two. The father enjoys still being in charge for quite awhile, plenty of help around the home and with finances and being cared for in his old age surrounded by family.

    In this case, “Giovanni” would have been shamed and cut off by his parents and seen his inheritance go to a younger brother or brother in law.

    We plan to follow something similar in our family and this allows us to raise daughters and sons who may marry young and not feed newlyweds to the wolves.

  49. Jay Karknee says:

    The old me would think this was some kind of parody or joke. Think about it in relation to the controversy we all just went through with Trump and his abortion comments. Women can kill their completely defenseless unborn children with impunity, while men have to support their deadbeat 28 year olds!! I guarantee that if this guy doesn’t pay support to the son, or even falls a little behind, he will go to jail no questions asked. And the same tradcons who puked all over themselves saying that no woman should ever face jail for abortion will be making prison rape jokes about this unfortunate man. (better not drop your soap in the shower, hee hee) This culture makes me sick.

  50. ace says:

    “Why doesn’t Giovanni want to strike out on his own? I don’t have stats for Italy, but my guess is women are delaying marriage there just as they are in the US; this greatly lowers the importance to young men of signaling provider status. ”

    True, but (even if Giovanni wants) to do that you need a job (a good job). There is very little of that in Europe right now…especially Southern Europe. The economic situation is abysmal. The jobs that are available are dead end and low paying.

  51. Anon says:

    I would say Giovanni is relatively smart. It would be ideal if he were mooching off of women that he has sex with (since those women only have money due to affirmative action and taxpayer transfers), but at least since he consumes from his father, that is less for his mother to consume.

    Overall, Giovanni is smart. Productive, no. Smart, yes.

  52. J.M. says:

    @Greyghost Sorry but no masculine man dreams of a professional whore for a wife. For a fling yes, but for a wife…only in your dreams. While in your country is true that working women are in most cases uneligible for spousal support, the fact is that the professional women makes for a miserable company and unhappy marriage in most cases. Low divorce rates, high infidelity and unhappiness rates. Your solution is akin to a doctor prescribing cyanide to cancer patient in order to dull the pain…

  53. Splashman says:

    *sigh* Most of the regulars here can be counted on for the following comments on any (and every) Dalrock post:
    1. There are no good women (at least in western society).
    2. There’s nothing we can do about it.
    3. You’re an idiot if you believe differently, or try to do anything about it.
    4. Things will only change after SHTF.

    I know Dalrock disagrees with all four of those (as do I). I can’t help wondering if the aforementioned regulars understand that.

  54. Minesweeper says:

    @Splashman, what would you suggest ?

    But dont get all depressed, here is some good news hot off the press:

    27 April 2016 From the section UK
    Marriages in England and Wales fall by 8.6% in 2013
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36151824

    And in other news, women arn’t to be jailed for having illegal abortions, but men missing child payments are.

    See ? happy days/

  55. Minesweeper says:

    @SM
    1. There are good women left, just they are 80+ y.o. and not really suitable for marriage🙂
    2. We are doing something by removing the blinds from our eyes.
    3. Your certainly not an idiot if you try to do something about it, as we all are just by changing our belief system which will change our actions. There are certainly alot of white knights around if you are looking for those who think differently.
    4. I can’t see any recovery to a workable solution, even if the SHTF.

  56. infowarrior1 says:

    Tend your own garden. Leave the rest up to God.

  57. feeriker says:

    *sigh* Most of the regulars here can be counted on for the following comments on any (and every) Dalrock post:

    1. There are no good women (at least in western society).

    I don’t recall anyone here ever saying that there are ABSOLUTELY NO good women in the western world. The prevailing opinion is that they are so rare that for the average Christian man desiring a Christ-following virgin woman with whom to start a family, the odds of finding such a woman are so small that they might as well be non-existent where the individual man is concerned.

    2. There’s nothing we can do about it.

    There really is nothing that any one individual man can do about it. “We,” on the other hand, as in hundreds of thousands or millions of men most assuredly CAN “do something about ‘it.'”

    But “we” won’t. Because men do not, never have, and never will act as a “team” (a la “team woman”) to advance our own collective, mutual interests. We’re just not bio-wired that way. That’s not a criticism, just a statement of fact.

    3. You’re an idiot if you believe differently, or try to do anything about it.

    “Naive idealist” and “idiot” are not synonymous. I’ve seen men here accused of being some form of the former, but never the latter, at least not among the regulars here, nearly all of whom know better.

    4. Things will only change after SHTF.

    That’s almost certainly true, assuming that there is any realistic chance at all of change. If human history has shown us nothing else, it is that the only way man ever changes his sin-and-error-laden ways is after he suffers soul-and-body-crushing adversity – and not always even then.

  58. Spike says:

    Giovanni is being smart. A brooding emo film maker, with no future is able to induce dread like nothing else in chicks his age or below. Why would he become like his dear old dad?

    It isn’t just 50 years of feminism that has caused this. It is also 50 years of “generation gap”, where Progressives have wanted to separate families along generational lines. They never thought that they would be the ones having to clean up a mess in the form of men not “manning up” due to feminism, and not “”growing up” due to the generation gap.

  59. greyghost says:

    Wrong frame J.M. being college educated is not the same as riding the cock carousel. nothing wrong with being a wife being a college freshman. You are thinking and following a successful script for a world made by men batter than you that doesn’t exist any more. It’s sweat of your brow time now big guy. A red pill man goes for the results not a winning script. You are repeating words and ideas with out knowing and understanding what they are for and what they accomplish. You are playing Christian man without the foundation of faith. There is no societal script, every call is your own individual call. No affirmation from peanut gallery. You only have faith and the strength of your own masculine character now.
    How does a man raise a daughter in this world? How does a man that knows insure his son in law is in a place to lead? How does a father insure his daughter has a full life with respect and love at the other end? he can’t but sure as hell can take what he has learned and provide guidance. He can have faith in the truth. Sweat of the brow time a man as to stand tall now. No script to follow. No approval from the masses this is all new territory here my friend.
    The men here are going to have let going of the script. Valid in another time and place. Today we must rely on raw masculinity and faith and find our own way. Dalrock each day as shown the script is now a lie even in church. Faith and truth is still valid what is different is we have to write the script ourselves and it will read like nothing we have ever been taught. The only affirmation you will receive is faith and masculine conviction from within.

  60. greyghost says:

    Splashman
    What are you looking for? What answers are you seeking?

  61. seventiesjason says:

    I am sure Giovanni is doing just fine. I am sure he feels “good” about himself and I am sure Giovanni has at least a few women who are not only interested in him….but I am sure plenty of women have no problem having a hook-up with him despite his loser status despite him refusing to grow up.

  62. Anon says:

    Splashman made a Strawman…

    Perhaps 25-30% of women are still ‘good’, but only a fifth of those are also attractive, so it is too hard to end up with one. Hence, the effort is not worth it, and search costs are too high.

    Why is that so hard to understand?

    2. There’s nothing we can do about it.

    Wrong. You can have a great life as a PUA. Just be certain about making the decision to focus in that direction.

    3. You’re an idiot if you believe differently, or try to do anything about it.

    What, exactly, has Splashman ‘tried to do about it’?

    4. Things will only change after SHTF.

    Yes, but SHTF will disproportionately affect women. An MGTOW with a savings cushion will be relatively unaffected.

    Splashman somehow does not see the huge influx of Muslims into the West as crossing the SHTF threshold. We have had Paris, San Bernardino, and Belgium in the space of 3 months..

  63. seventiesjason says:

    What can you do about it?

    Keep strong in your faith in Christ. The only man who really counts. So what if you end up single or (gasp) not a ladies man……too many women are not worth it, and the ones who are indeed are rare gems. Look, I just paid my bills…not not a rich man by any account……but I have some savings, I have zero debt. My humble but tidy apartment is safe, protected and comfortable. A baseball game is on, I still have my lean frame from my college days. My hobbies are actually cool, thought inducing and reflective. No, I don’t have children, or a cute wife, girlfriend….heck I am not even dating…..but what of it now? Hook up, compromise the promises I made Jesus and get an STD????? For what, three seconds of bliss and incessant nagging afterward?

    No, they all can have it “I know who I hath Believeth” and at my age, I am so lucky now. I dodged a bullet, divorce, court, having children turned against me and forced into the “competition” that women make everything out to be today with their men. Nahhhh, you can have it.

    baseball is on now, it’s gonna be a great season. Summer means camping and hiking…..and I am taking a class for personal enrichment on the side for my benefit. Life for a long time I viewed with anger, jealously and plain desperation. I’ll take NOW over 30, 35, 27, 23 ANYTIME of the week. Wait on Christ, live a life worth His favor…..as a real man, not a clown performing for the attention of women

  64. Tom C says:

    According to the NYT article Dalrock linked to in the comments:

    “Even though a 2006 law made joint custody of children the norm when parents split, Italian courts continue to make mothers the primary caregivers while fathers bear the financial brunt of the separation. Critics say the law, as it is applied, favors women…”

    In other words, it doesn’t really matter much what the law says to Italian judges either.

  65. Zimriel says:

    We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful — CS Lewis, “The Abolition of Man”

  66. Original Laura says:

    In the 70s or 80s, Steve Allen (who hosted the Tonight Show prior to Johnny Carson) had a son who joined a religious cult and cut off contact with him. Steve Allen ended up writing a book entitled Beloved Son about his family situation and about his research into why so many young people were joining cults.

    He spoke to one young woman who had joined a cult, but later left, and asked her why she had been attracted to the cult. It boiled down to expectations of her parents that she did not feel that she could meet. Allen asked her what career her parents had wanted for her, and she said that they didn’t push any particular career on her, they just wanted her to do “something great.” Allen noted that nearly all the cult members and former cult members that he had been able to interview came from the ambitious end of the middle class, and that an impoverished upbringing seemed to provide almost complete immunity to the desire for an alternative lifestyle of that sort.

    Obviously the Boomerang Millennials are dealing with massive social change and a miserable economy, but I wonder if some of them aren’t just staying home with Mom and Dad to avoid the humiliation of taking a ho-hum low-paying job that they could have gotten without four years of college and all the associated debt. As long as you are working as an intern at some cool place, or taking another class or two at the university, you are still young and full of potential. Once you take a really crummy job with no realistic potential for advancement you have resigned yourself to loserdom and admitted to the world that your college education was a waste of time. Downward mobility isn’t a possibility for you, it’s now a reality.

  67. Jim says:

    “Mammone” is not a new phenomenon. Until you get married, you live at home. And nobody gets married–never mind having children!–so nobody leaves home.

  68. Pathfinderlight says:

    Don’t worry, everyone. When financial abortion becomes the law of the land, or de facto practice of remaining society, the pendulum will swing back the other way.

    Why should we believe for a minute that people who think they’re smart enough to be in control of a society can’t be smart enough to track the root cause of the actual ills they are creating?

  69. Dave says:

    But “we” won’t. Because men do not, never have, and never will act as a “team” (a la “team woman”) to advance our own collective, mutual interests. We’re just not bio-wired that way. That’s not a criticism, just a statement of fact.

    This flies in the face of all human history from the beginning of time until now. Men have, and always will, work together to advance their mutual interests. How do you think the civilizations were formed and advanced? How did the great rulers of old conquer nations, and dominate their worlds? Why, their men worked together. When it comes to working together as a team to advance common goals, men are a natural—-from hunting, to sports, to warfare, to making treacherous journeys, to new inventions, etc, men excel.

    Women on the other hand are natural backstabbers (I know, that was a universal statement, and like all universal statements, exceptions are bound to exist). Women don’t know what loyalty means. They would betray each other in a jiffy if it advances their individual goals. Because of their weak nature, women can often be easily influenced to violate even their deepest convictions.

  70. Dave says:

    Why should we believe for a minute that people who think they’re smart enough to be in control of a society can’t be smart enough to track the root cause of the actual ills they are creating?

    I think there is a greater force behind it all. The deception of the devil is definitely at work here. The devil has them convinced that good is evil and evil is good. It used to baffle me that any woman would defend feminism when the movement absolutely denigrates women and reduces them to self-hating, baby-hating, romance-hating, stability-hating, cat-loving old maids. But not anymore.

  71. They Call Me Tom says:

    I’d like to be a Dad, and a Husband. But there’s this proverb regarding living with a contentious wife… and when all women are raised to be contentious…

  72. Dave says:


    I’d like to be a Dad, and a Husband. But there’s this proverb regarding living with a contentious wife… and when all women are raised to be contentious…

    In essence, you are publicly admitting that circumstances, not you, determine the course of your life? That if, somehow, things were different, you’d do what you really wanted to do with your God-given life?
    Well, if things were different, I would be a billionaire, running for POTUS!

    Two of the groups of people God will not allow into His eternal Kingdom are the fearful, and the unbelieving, and we can remove ourselves from both groups if we really wanted to.

  73. Johnycomelately says:

    The funny thing is that I’m pretty sure some jurisdictions (I’m thinking common law) have provisions for children being responsible for financially destitute parents. Don’t see it as a long stretch for it to be applied to adult children.

    Thank goodness we’ll have living incomes by then….

  74. Adam says:

    I’m an Australian but I lived and worked in Italy for over 10 years beginning in 2000. This sort of thing was standard even back then. One of my best Italian friends moved out of home at 34, and he was a successful lawyer. No shame about it, he just found it handy to still live at home. Biggest alpha you would ever meet as well.

    As for the court case with the father having to pay for the son, it’s a classic example of the variances of the Italian legal system. I very much doubt that it is a mirror to their society. It is a mirror to their legal system. Every case is a lottery over there, no matter how outlandish. My lawyer friend used to joke with me about some of the more ridiculous decisions that got handed down. He always had a new funny story to tell. Stories that would not have been funny at all to the unfortunate recipients.

  75. ace says:

    Dave says:
    April 28, 2016 at 3:44 pm
    “The Hispanics, Africans and Muslims are known for having large families, and unless White America begins to have more kinds in earnest, they will soon become a minority in their own land.”

    This might have been true in the past it isn’t anymore. Birth rates are dropping across the board. The phenomena you’re speaking of aren’t only true for WASP’s they are just more pronounced in that group.

  76. bpeschel says:

    There’s a saying that applies here.

    “Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.”

    The first generation struggles to make a better life for their children. That generation works hard and makes their children’s lives luxurious. That generation pisses it away.

    “Giovanni” can do what he does because he can. Why not? Do you think men love going to work? Doing the same job year after year? Passionately?

    Hell no!

    So, no, don’t bother blaming feminism, Muslims, or the new generation. Blame affluence and government-supported welfare programs.

  77. Minesweeper says:

    @ace, do you have figures for those ? In the US the Hispanics are growing like mad.

    In the UK the Muslims I’ve always known were compelled to do the exact same thing. Once they could get married they were married with a cousins from abroad and brought here and have at least 3 or 4 kids – some disabled due to marrying your cousin.

    Just to show you the maths involved and the exponential rate increase the UK has seen since the 1960 when we had maybe 100k max.

    1990:1 native = total 1
    1991:1 native, +1 marries cousin from Pakistan. total = 2
    1996: have at least 3 or 4 kids, total = 6
    2010: 4 kids will be married to cousins from abroad (girls early, boys later) and brought here, = total =10

    rinse and repeat cycle.

    Its truly incredible but that has been the rate of growth over the last 50 years, x10 every 20 or so years. Not that I’ve ever met one that wasn’t extremely nice or great to work with either. But it won’t take the muslims long to take over europe at this rate and they know it. Most are just looking to get out of muslim lands as its always so violent. The irony is once they pass a certain population rate, the once safe lands they have fled too will become like home no one is sure what that rate is yet, we are bound to find out.

    Incredible to think they have actually gone ahead of the “MGTOW get your wife from abroad”, they have been doing this and husbands too. The whole EU project is a laugh too, give if 50 years have the continent will be muslim, and the 1st thing they will do will be to impose shira and close the parliaments.

  78. Scott says:

    Shared on FB with the following intro added by me:

    Being a father no longer brings with it any status. It is not respected. It is not revered. And men are motivated by those things.

    We have gone from “father knows to best” to “everybody loves Raymond.”

    Bring the status back that used to go with the title of “father” and the basement dwelling man-boy will begin to disappear.

    Constantly shaming these guys and telling them to “man up” will not work, because they are on to the game now.

    People are really so stupid that they don’t understand market forces and incentives. This 28 year old man sees the way his father is treated–(forced to pay “child” support so he can go to graduate school) and thinks “why would I want to get married and have children?”

    Note: in the past, men have signed up for marriage due to the prospect of leading a family, as head. “Headship” has been reconfigured by modern “pastors” to mean “spiritual leader” which effectively means “reads devotionals and bible verses to his wife and kids.” That’s not headship. “Marriage” (for men) in the modern world means all responsibility and no authority. No rational person would sign up for that.

    I’ll come back if anything interesting happens.

  79. Minesweeper says:

    @Scott, very wise words. Not only in marriage, in any role at all or work or home, if you are given all responsibility and no authority you will be in absolute hell. Have experienced this in work and marriage, both were ruinous for your health and well being.

  80. enrique says:

    off topic, but interesting as I watch what’s happening in this election in light of the RP. Seeing these Pro Hilary “here’s what Trump said about women” ads and watching his rallies, which like California, were full of regular people, including black and brown–this election is shaping up to be a macrocosm of the day-to-day interplay between upper class white women and everyone else.

    We have all heard the last 30 years, how “white men are being challenged in their authority/position, status, etc etc”. But I think what we are seeing, and I am seeing this in other areas of the country and culture, white women are increasingly being, correctly, grouped with white men, in all those stereotypical discussions–entitlement, slave-owning past, white skin, privilege. I would assume white men have grown immune to most of it by now–but it seems to be a real shock to white women, who sense their losing their grip. Trump’s pending victory will be part of that.

  81. jay says:

    “Say what you will about Islam, but for all of its many obvious faults, systemic disrespect for and hostility toward husbands and fathers is not one of them.” True, but Islam — or more accurately, Arab nations in practice, whatever the religious or cultural roots — have the opposite problem: Systemic disrespect and hostility towards wives and mothers, and femininity in general.

  82. jay says:

    I have fond memories of when my ex-wife and I went through marriage counseling before she finally left me, that the pastor and his wife explained to me that if there was trouble in the marriage, it was my fault because as the man I was the head of the family and so I was responsible for my wife’s emotional and spiritual state. Then they also explained to me that I had absolutely no right to tell her what to do about anything. I had 100% responsibility and 0% authority. They explained to me that Biblical commands about a husband’s responsibilities must be understood to be literal, absolute, no exceptions, no excuses. But of course Biblical commands about a wife’s responsibilities must be understood to mean when it is reasonable, when popular culture agrees that is something she ought to do, when it is convenient, when she feels like it. (end rant)

  83. BillyS says:

    You can have a great life as a PUA.

    Sin is only pleasurable for a season Anon.

    It has nasty consequences later in life, and in the next even if this life seems great. You are focusing with a far too narrow lens.

    It would also be quite interesting to see a study on the number of STDs for a PUA or carousel rider. I would be that are significantly higher than those who avoid that lifestyle.

    Not all the “benefits” of a lifestyle are immediately apparent.

  84. Patrick Albanese says:

    I’d say we’ve gone from Father Knows Best to Father Knows Nothing.

  85. feeriker says:

    In essence, you are publicly admitting that circumstances, not you, determine the course of your life? That if, somehow, things were different, you’d do what you really wanted to do with your God-given life?
    Well, if things were different, I would be a billionaire, running for POTUS!

    Two of the groups of people God will not allow into His eternal Kingdom are the fearful, and the unbelieving, and we can remove ourselves from both groups if we really wanted to.

    Do tell us, oh Great Prophet Dave, how you would change these circumstances, this plethora of contentious women succored by the society we live in to amplify what is already one of the basest aspects of their nature? This is something that even God Himself didn’t urge anyone to attempt to change (hence the two pieces of sage advice in Proverbs), so if you have a new idea that God somehow didn’t happen to think of, I’m all eyes and ears.

  86. Gunner Q says:

    Dave @ 1:49 am:
    “In essence, you are publicly admitting that circumstances, not you, determine the course of your life?”

    Of course circumstances limit him, just like all of us. Otherwise, why haven’t you personally reinstated patriarchy?

    “Two of the groups of people God will not allow into His eternal Kingdom are the fearful, and the unbelieving,”

    Citation for fearful? I remember that Christ Himself begged on his knees to not be crucified. And what about people like Joshua, Gideon and Paul, who were given supernatural encouragement instead of condemnation when they were afraid?

  87. feeriker says:

    I have fond memories of when my ex-wife and I went through marriage counseling before she finally left me, that the pastor and his wife explained to me that if there was trouble in the marriage, it was my fault because as the man I was the head of the family and so I was responsible for my wife’s emotional and spiritual state. Then they also explained to me that I had absolutely no right to tell her what to do about anything. I had 100% responsibility and 0% authority. They explained to me that Biblical commands about a husband’s responsibilities must be understood to be literal, absolute, no exceptions, no excuses. But of course Biblical commands about a wife’s responsibilities must be understood to mean when it is reasonable, when popular culture agrees that is something she ought to do, when it is convenient, when she feels like it. (end rant)

    Thanks, jay. Sorry to hear about your experience. I went through EXACTLY the same scenario. with my (former) pastor and the “marriage counselor” (*pfffft!*) that he recommended (a feminized churchian “man”) bdfore my ex bailed for good.

    Your story could be presented on a slide or a poster, followed by a statement in giant, bold letters reading “THIS is why men don’t attend church anymore!

    Not, I think, that most churchian care that men aren’t attending church…

  88. bud says:

    I’ve started to refer to TV commercials that perpetuate this attitude as the “MAM meme”. Male As Moron. The Allstate insurance commercial where the female berates her male companion for suggesting that men are better drivers is a prime example. The humor is marginal, but the final word from her exposes the underlying contempt for men held by the scriptwriters: an imperative “Silence!”

  89. Vektor says:

    The Giovanni’s of the world did not change the sexual/legal/financial/political environment, the environment changed them.

  90. Scott says:

    The humor is marginal, but the final word from her exposes the underlying contempt for men held by the scriptwriters: an imperative “Silence!”

    That one is a good one. The sad part is, the basic premise of the commercial is faulty (using an anecdote to prove an otherwise generalizable truth is supposedly incorrect.)

    I am a woman. I am a better driver than the man I am seated next to. Therefore, women are better drivers than men.

    And, I assume the commercial works to make its point, because it is still on.

  91. Anonymous Reader says:

    The Allstate insurance commercial where the female berates her male…

    Allstate used to call itself the “Good Hands” people, maybe still do.

    Men to Allstate – get your hands off of me!.

  92. Pingback: Kill the truth, they will [II Chron 24] | Dark Brightness

  93. Feminist Hater says:

    I’d say we’ve gone from Father Knows Best to Father Knows Nothing.

    Nah, we skipped that step and went straight to – Fathers?! We don’t need no stinking fathers!

  94. feeriker says:

    Nah, we skipped that step and went straight to – Fathers?! We don’t need no stinking fathers!

    +10,000

    So obviously and painfully true.

  95. Aservant says:

    Well, this video obviously isn’t Italy, but right next door, and from the piece here that speaks about how courts are forcing men to pay for adult children in Italy, it would appear that the Italians have about the same level of contempt for men that Spain does. This video below is truly astounding on one hand, then again, not all that surprising.

  96. They Call Me Tom says:

    Dave, circumstances outside of myself have an impact, just like have an impact beyond myself. We do good in the opportunities we have to do good. We accept the things we have no power over, and trust in the Almighty when it comes to wishing they were different.

    We also have a responsibility in what circumstances we get ourselves involved with. Masochism is not stoicism. If you see that a road does not lead to a good destination, it’s not heroic to run down it like a fool and say, “But, I did it with the right intentions!”

    If women are raised to be contentious, there’s no point in marrying one. Until mothers and peers loudly disapprove… instead of joyfully endorse contentiousness, there’s no point. Except perhaps, that rare woman who bristles at such women. Then I’ll be married, ha ha. I’m not fearful or unbelieving, but occasionally blessed with enough wisdom from time to time to know not to be foolish. Consider the parable of talents and ask yourself what is the best interest earned on the life we’re blessed with. I doubt the landlord will be happy to hear that we spent that life nurturing and comforting ungodly women. That would be akin to earning negative interest.

  97. Bill Crooks says:

    I understand the idea of ‘teaming up’ is effeminate. That is one reason why I am against the ‘men’s rights movement’. This is not a question of rights. All the laws required are there. It is in their application where the failures occur. In the same way, men need to uphold the moral order. The moral order, when properly understood, allows for the possibility of the best life for both men and women.

    Upholding the moral order is like being a good sportsman. Good sportsmen compete against one another, but understand that the rules of the game must be upheld by all players for the benefit of all players. In a game files with cheaters, no one really wins, regardless if many pretend they are winning it convince themselves they are winning.

  98. greyghost says:

    Aservant
    Looks like we have a ways to go before we get rock bottom.(shooting starts)

  99. Aservant says:

    Greyghost.

    Doubt you remember me brother, but I remember you well from the Spearhead days……Always brings back good nostalgic feelings seeing you still going strong. Those were the days that I first found the manosphere……you, among others made a deep impression upon me.

    So are you saying that if we get to the point where Spain is, the shooting will start here? Ya know, I don’t know anymore, I think sometimes that by that time, if not already, they will have cucked and emasculated so many that there will be no balls left to be able to steady that hand and take aim.

  100. kaminsky says:

    Dave=AMOG

    Textbook

  101. kaminsky says:

    The only real man in the room is Dave!

  102. “The Fearful and the unbelieving don’t go to Heaven” the Gospel according to Dave.

    “The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” Actual scripture.

    Let me get this straight:

    Men on this blog are saying the MRA’s organizing is bad because….men complaining and whining is unmanly.

    Men on this blog are saying they don’t support MRA’s because all men need to do is buck up and take charge of their lives.

    Did you fools see the video on Spain. We are one tick from that point.

    We better start talking about organizing collectively AS MEN or else we are going to lose this once and for all.

    Based on the responses by men in this blog it is clear we have lost already. Men even organizing for their collective rights is seen as cringeworthy and unmanly by the men. Meanwhile, the women in our lives COLLECTIVELY engage in support of the FI. Don’t believe me? HHAHAHAAHAH!

    Suggest on Facebook that Cosby is not really a rapist and all those women who went to his room, drank, and took drugs, and then took off her clothes and got into bed with him actually consented to sex with him. Good luck with that.

    Suggest on Facebook that women lie in 30% of so called domestic violence cases. Good luck with that.

    TLDR: Women act collectively to further their interests. Men shame themselves and are FIERCELY shamed by women for attempting to act collectively in their interest. Game over.

  103. Jim says:

    I have fond memories of when my ex-wife and I went through marriage counseling before she finally left me, that the pastor and his wife explained to me that if there was trouble in the marriage, it was my fault because as the man I was the head of the family and so I was responsible for my wife’s emotional and spiritual state.

    Tell your pastor that he’s a worthless piece of shit and tell him he’s not a Christian but a priest of the FI/feminist cult. Next, walk out.

    Men on this blog are saying they don’t support MRA’s because all men need to do is buck up and take charge of their lives.

    Did you fools see the video on Spain. We are one tick from that point.

    I hear ya. It’s so full of shit isn’t it? Yeah, just “man up” and magically you won’t have a SWAT team with military weaponry show up at your house because some little cunt FEELZ unsafe. Or just says she does. Good luck with that idiots. lol.

  104. Aservant says:

    bluepillprofessor

    Absolutely. Where do men get this idea that men don’t and/or haven’t worked together exclusively as men in order to achieve greater societal goals? How ignorant can one be of history? A hundred years ago there was a plethora of men’s only groups, clubs, institutions, schools, you name it, and most of these openly expressed “No women allowed”. I guess most men today, even red pill men, have completely swallowed the propaganda that men just did this because they were big, ole meanies that were conspiring against women. in these groups, they weren’t doing anything of importance at all. It doesn’t occur to them, in spite of the fact that with a little bit of education on the matter you can find volumes of opinions written by men (and sometimes even women) of how they were acutely aware that introducing women into these groups was completely destructive to their cohesion and served little to no purpose for the women as well. In other words, they knew and openly expressed that men had to be reserved spaces exclusively for them in order to achieve many different things. Literally all of these groups have now been infiltrated or taken over by women, disbanded,or dissolved.

    They must be re-established if were are to have any hope. At least a healthy percentage.

  105. blacknwhiterose says:

    Roosh’s website has men meeting up underground. Kind of a crass website, but some good posters with knowledge of how to go about life red pill, thinking outside of the box.

  106. Bill Crooks says:

    I haven’t been understood.

    I am not saying men cannot gather to the exclusion of women. I am not saying men need to merely take charge of their lives. Many things in society are set up against fathers and husbands. This not a question of rights. What specific rights are you talking about?

    Societal and cultural change is needed. Viewing male/female relations as inevitably antagonistic is a problem, since they are not. I think the Bible basically lays out a good way for things to work. Promiscuous women are not happy. Hook-up culture is a pathological attempt by today’s insecure young woman to have almost totalitarian control over sex – and they are miserable, except when they can convince themselves they are not.

  107. Hells Hound says:

    Absolutely. Where do men get this idea that men don’t and/or haven’t worked together exclusively as men in order to achieve greater societal goals? How ignorant can one be of history? A hundred years ago there was a plethora of men’s only groups, clubs, institutions, schools, you name it, and most of these openly expressed “No women allowed”. I guess most men today, even red pill men, have completely swallowed the propaganda that men just did this because they were big, ole meanies that were conspiring against women. in these groups, they weren’t doing anything of importance at all

    They weren’t conspiring against women. They were cooperating as all-male interest groups in competition with other all-male interest groups. That’s what human history is all about. They weren’t cooperating *as men* in order to advance their common interests *in opposition to women*. Can you really not see that?

  108. Aservant says:

    Hells Hound,

    I didn’t say that they were conspiring against women, you need to go back and read my comment again. I said the most men today have bought the propaganda, in other words, the lie, that men were just big ole meanies that were “conspiring” (note the quotation marks) against women……in other words, I said that they weren’t conspiring against women………I said exactly what you just said here. Can’t you see that?

  109. Hells Hound says:

    You made a baseless accusation against “most men today, even red pill men”, in order to promote a false narrative.

  110. Aservant says:

    Not promoting any false narrative at all. If you can show me real world proof where all these red pill men are that are openly advocating for a restoration for effective, men’s only groups, I will graciously concede. Yes, there are some, but not many. What I see overwhelmingly, even here on these threads, are consistent, repeat comments saying, “Advocating for men’s only groups or associations is seen as whining and men don’t naturally identify by sex like women do”.

  111. greyghost says:

    The dynamic of why women or men form and belong to groups is different Chateau Heartiste posted an article on it
    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/male-vs-female-forms-of-group-cohesion/

  112. Caput Mundi says:

    I got a kick out of dubbing him, “Giovanni.” Playing on the stereotype (it’s true) of Italian men living way too long with mom and dad.

  113. J.M. says:

    You are thinking and following a successful script for a world made by men batter than you that doesn’t exist any more. It’s sweat of your brow time now big guy. A red pill man goes for the results not a winning script.

    I think you are the one following a script made for another generation. Maybe in your time most women going to the Uni were wholesome but not even where I am, let alone in the Anglosphere, career women are not carousel riders. I understand your point about educating one’s daughter and prepare her for the future…but unless she is studying something serious like STEM, or specialized branches of medicine , a university girl will most likely ride the carousel…

  114. Chris says:

    And let me ask YOU, why do you even want to be respected? Because you fear OTHER PEOPLE’S DISRESPECT? OH NO! I care so much about what others think about little me. So you’re either respected or disrespected? You’ll never win. And putting down others because you feel disrespect and contempt for their lifestyle says more about the naynay sayer. Just saying.

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