She lost her best friend.

On Saturday new commenter Constance left a heartbreaking comment on a post I wrote back in 2010:

My ex husband and I had a mutual divorce 5 years ago and I’m still not over it. It hurts every single day. There was no cheating, just a long period of separation and drifting apart. I suffer from depression, so that also contributed. Now, he has moved on, but I can’t and don’t know if I ever will. I still love and miss him. Always will. I deeply regret the divorce and I feel like I had amnesia and trying to find my life back. But, the wall is thick and tall. Feels like a living nightmare that is inescapable. I dream of trying to find him, but he can’t be reached. I can’t find any peace in my life. Drowning with sorrow and anger. Angry at my depression. Angry at the demise of a marriage to the only man I will ever love.

The title of the five year old post is Her husband was her best friend.  The old post included multiple examples of wives who divorced or nearly divorced the best friend they ever had.  One of the examples was from a now deleted blog (frivolousdivorce.wordpress.com).  While the blog is gone, the Internet Archive has a copy of it and I captured some of the blog in my old post as well.  In My husband was the best friend I ever had she wrote:

His faults were many: sleeping too much, clowning around too much, being too interested in sports, not knowing how to cook, not remembering the names of his childrens’ teachers, not getting home before 6 pm because of his 2-hour commute, not liking poetry and art, and other heinous offenses.  All deserving of divorce, right?

The truth is that he endured years and years of my contempt, grinding criticism, big mouth, and deep character defects and he loved me in spite of it.

You see, he didn’t demand perfection like I did.  He was just there for me through the good and the bad, doing what a real husband does.  Too bad he didn’t have a real wife.

I didn’t have the strength of character to make it through the demanding years of our childrens’ teenage and college years.  If  I had endured those tough years, I would now have a companion to come home to, to eat dinner with, to go to a movie, travel, and grow old with.  I do all of those things alone now.  Seven years after the divorce, I still miss him.

Another woman has him as a husband and best friend now and he has forgotten me.  Good for him.

Constance, the former blogger referenced above, and millions of other divorced women with similar heartbreaking stories show the absolute cruelty of those who either directly sell divorce or sell the benefit of threats of divorce to unhappy wives.

Back in June I wrote about Dr. Harley selling threats of divorce to wives in his post When to Call It Quits (Part 1)*

On the subject of neglect, I’ve chosen to feature a marriage that isn’t all that bad from most people’s perspective, but isn’t good either. L.R.’s husband hasn’t abandoned her physically, leaving her to fend for herself. Instead, he’s only abandoned her emotionally. They probably even have a friendship of sorts. It’s cases like these that leave a wife struggling to know what to do.

As it turns out, most of these women divorce their husbands. In fact, research I’ve personally conducted in the archives of government statistics on the causes of divorce lead me to believe that as many as 80% of all divorces are caused by neglect. Women like L.R. suddenly call it quits with little warning, leaving her husband, family and friends scratching their heads wondering what’s wrong with her.

In this Q&A column, I describe what spouses usually do when faced with neglect, and then I explain what spouses should do. My approach is radical, and very controversial. But keep in mind the point I’ve just made-80% of divorces are caused by neglect. There’s a much higher risk of divorce in marriages where spouses are not meeting each other’s emotional needs than there is in all the marriages that suffer from physical and verbal abuse, chemical dependency, unemployment, and all other causes combined.

The secular Dr Harley’s approach to wives who have lost the tingle for their good husbands is you will note nearly identical to the modern Christian approach advocated by Dr. Clarke and Focus on the Family in the same situation (see here and here).  If you put the writing of Dr’s Bank and Harley side by side (omitting Dr. Clarke’s biblical rationalizations for rebellion) it would be very difficult to tell the two apart.  But either way, whether these evil whispers are spoken by secular or “Christian” counselors, or by the secular or modern Christian media, the end result of selling this sin to already tempted women is a massive trail of destruction.  While the destruction is theoretically aimed at the husband, in practice innocent children and the foolish wives themselves end up paying terribly for this as well.

Related:

*Here is an archive of the link.

This entry was posted in Divorce, Dr. David Clarke, Dr. Willard Harley, Focus on the Family, Foolishness, Rebellion, selling divorce, Whispers. Bookmark the permalink.

118 Responses to She lost her best friend.

  1. Pingback: She lost her best friend. | Manosphere.com

  2. rugby11ljh says:

    Just learning about Patrick Ireland
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibRmi4GlQeI

  3. Pingback: She lost her best friend. | Neoreactive

  4. jonakc1 says:

    unfortunately the corrective action of complementarian christians is to
    teach young men to cook
    tell them working long hours , travelling and expecting your wife to support you is SIN
    sleeping while your wife is awake looking after the kids is selfish ( even though you worked)

    and young men are lapping up this nonsense happily and mocking those who choose to be man…

  5. jonakc1 says:

    nothing wrong with cooking- I love it, but young men should not really be worried about domestic duties
    but hey

    unless a man becomes a woman
    he must be divorced

    well divorced wives get praised by the church now
    divorced men are seen s scum…

  6. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock, it’s the same old 2nd stage feminist fallacies at work; men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies. So we see conservative feminists of all varieties trotting out the same failed solutions premised on identical attractors – choreplay, “if mama ain’t happy”, etc. and so forth and so on. It’s monotonous, repetitive, mindnumbingly so. And all the “Love Language” recitations won’t do much, either. Reality, cold “Glasses ON” reality for men and those women who can face it, that’s needed.

    You’re clearly doing more to really push back against divorce than all these White Knighting doofi; if nothing else, some woman who’s not haaaaapy who winds up here reading about the reality of where divorce (especially if she’s over 40) will lead her (the House of Loneliness, for a start) and who then makes even the slightest effort to dial back her contempt – that woman will benefit far greater than if she read the usual crap, churchian or otherwise.

    Telling it like it is, pointing out the facts, appealing to women’s self-interest…this seems a lot more likely to work than many, many other approaches.

    Postscript: It appears that Great Books For Men and e.e. cummings produced a love child.
    jonakc1, if your keyboard does not have a functioning “shift” key, perhaps we could crowdsource enough to buy one for you.

  7. Anonymous Reader says:

    Is this posting really accurately titled? Suppose that I took this laptop I’m working on and walked out onto the nearest busy street, then threw it as hard as I could right into traffic. Would it then be accurate to say that I “lost” my computer? When it got run over by a car or truck would it be reasonable for me to say it was destroyed accidentally and I just haven’t got a clue how that happened?

    Of course, a posting entltled “She Drove Away Her Best Friend” might not attract as many readers, especially female readers, and most especially unhaaaaapy female readers. But wouldn’t it be more accurately titled? I think so.

  8. greyghost says:

    Since this dynamic is still driven by the choices and attitude of women. How does this article a what it mean become the cultural narrative. How at a minimum do we break the church from the empowerment of divorce. What sermon could be given to reveal the story and the emotion given here. No where in the modern world is this story being told. The closet is the story of abandonment by some doctor running off with the hot young women. But these stories are of women in a quest for happiness leave their “boring loyal dude” with the idea their lives will be improved.
    BTW my current wife is one of these women. I have two daughters and this will be a conversation I have for high school years.

  9. greyghost says:

    Telling it like it is, pointing out the facts, appealing to women’s self-interest…this seems a lot more likely to work than many, many other approaches.

    This is where we need to go. Know your women.
    Outstanding Anonymous Reader

  10. BradA says:

    I would like to understand how “complementarian” involves a man being a woman? Wouldn’t they be more in favor of men doing men things and women doing women things if we are supposed to complement each other?

  11. Jack says:

    The one thing the grabbed me is the “80% of divorce is caused by neglect”. Nope. 100% of all divorce is caused by a person filing the appropriate documents with the country clerk. This is another example of “it was someone else’s fault that I ended my marriage”.

  12. Mariah8 says:

    I thought a complementarian marriage involved traditional gender roles and egalitarians were the idiots who advocate 50 percent division of household chores?

  13. Pitt Harman says:

    Please be careful with posts like this one. It is dangerous to men. My ex divorced me when she was 45. A more miserable and contemptuous wife could not walk this earth. I could not bring myself to divorce her because she had become crippled in one leg after we were married, what kind of man dumps a handicapped wife was my mantra. She was my wife and I took my vows seriously.

    Then she divorced me! Her friend had given her a copy of Eat,Pray,Love and she was going to find a gorgeous exciting husband. God gave me a wonderful gift.

    Thank God no one could talk sense to her. Thank God she did not see a post like this. The happiest day of my life was the first day I woke up free of her. It was like a Disney movie. The sky was an amazing blue. I know it can’t be true, but I think a raccoon waved at me and gave me a thumbs-up.

    Thank you God for my life.

  14. TomG says:

    If more women admit to the mistake of their divorces, it will improve understanding. I’m not at all sympathetic to the plight of women in these cases. They lost the right of their grievances once the divorce is set into motion.

  15. jbro1922 says:

    What are these women’s expectations of marriage?

  16. Anonymous Reader says:

    Jack
    This is another example of “it was someone else’s fault that I ended my marriage”.

    Also known as “It Just Happened”.

  17. thedeti says:

    Jbro:

    When you say “these women”, who are you talking about? Are you talking about “most women” or the target audience of Dr. Clarke and Dr. Harley? They’re really pretty much the same.

    Most women, I think, see marriage as a continuation of the boyfriend/girlfriend status from before. In all seriousness, I doubt most women really are looking to get married with the specific intent to divorce later. I think most women are looking for a partnership of “equals” because that’s what they’ve been told to do.

    Most women are looking for “hedonic” marriage, i.e., marriage which is personally, socially, culturally, professionally and sexually very fulfilling all the time, with no problems or difficulties, and which is a safe place for the accumulation and deployment of material assets. So if there are problems (the usual one being her lack of sexual attraction for him, which leads to all other marital problems), her conclusion is that the marriage was a mistake, and she “chose wrongly”. In most women’s view, marital problems mean the marriage needs to be ended, because “he was not The One”.

    From being around the manosphere for about 4 years now, it’s become very clear to me that the primary problem in marriages today is that women are marrying men to whom they are considerably less attracted to than the men they used to have sex with when they were younger. Don’t get me wrong. These women really do like these men they’re marrying. I think they do love these men at first and when the marriage gets started, when there is lots of new relationship energy and she is excited about getting married (which excitement she mistakes for sexual attraction). There is even a little sexual attraction there. The problem is that there is not nearly as much sexual attraction for husband as there was for the men she used to have sex with before she met her husband. This, right here, is the main reason most marriages falter.

    So I think most women’s expectations of marriage are completely out of kilter; and they expect too much. I also think that women’s premarital sexual experiences are really damaging these marriages.

  18. johnmcg says:

    I suppose most of the ministers dispensing the “threat” advice would respond that this is a worst-case scenario. That their hope is that husbands will respond to the threat and become the husbands their wives want them to be and all will live happily ever after.

    But I’m not convinced.

    More likely is that a man who responds to these threats will be come a shell of his former self, and someone that his wife still doesn’t love, and she will remain unhappy, to the point where she goes down the road outlined here, much to everyone’s misery.

  19. Atticus says:

    @thedeti “From being around the manosphere for about 4 years now, it’s become very clear to me that the primary problem in marriages today is that women are marrying men to whom they are considerably less attracted to than the men they used to have sex with when they were younger. Don’t get me wrong. These women really do like these men they’re marrying. I think they do love these men at first and when the marriage gets started, when there is lots of new relationship energy and she is excited about getting married (which excitement she mistakes for sexual attraction). There is even a little sexual attraction there.”

    I have to disagree. You can’t say women love these men, just a little, just enough to get married, but they really love their young lovers way more. You know what? Young lovers become old lovers. Old lovers become “I love you but I’m not in love with you”. Women are fickle and emotional and followers. When a system is in place that facilitates and glorifies an easy out some take it: and you end up with Constance.

    Best advice ever was a couple posts ago. Don’t want to divorce, stay married.

  20. Bluntobj says:

    Now here’s an opportunity:

    Create a program with these regretfully divorced women and run it in churches after “fireproof” type menrbad events.

    I’d also like to see a statistical analysis of marriage/divorce rates after Clark and FotF have run through a church. If church boards could see a significant increase in divorce and a subsequent loss in church attendance after these events they’d quickly put the kibosh on it, if only for the sake of church revenues.

  21. Easttexasfatboy says:

    I agree…..this article is misnamed. She didn’t lose anything. She deliberately severed ties with her husband. Obviously, she wasn’t friendly. My ex acted in a similar way. But she keeps showing up every 18 months or so.

    Yeah, I can relate to the outright contempt. I practiced a form of passive agression that women can’t deal with. Indifference. I reckon I was MGTOW without knowing it. You see, if you can’t keep your self respect, then you’re a slave.

    So, at the end of the day, this article doesn’t really help the situation. Once a woman has killed off her emotional feelings for her husband, she won’t ever respect him again. Hypergamy raises it’s ugly head.

  22. Spike says:

    Good article Dalrock.
    It is interesting to note that there is something dead about the divorced woman – every one of them. It’s almost like they know that they have done something very wrong. Having done the wrong, they feel they must stay committed to their decision – a commitment that enslaves and destroys them.
    I asked a miserable, recently- divorced colleague, “Why did you get divorced”?
    Her answer was, “He worked too much”
    I asked, “what was it he was working for?”
    “The deposit on a house”, she said.
    I was aghast. This is an educated, middle class woman. Yet, working double shifts to get a house deposit together isn’t enough for her. Presumably too, neither is doing nothing or having no drive.
    Is ot any wonder men are avoiding marriage?

  23. Dalrock says:

    @theDeti

    When you say “these women”, who are you talking about? Are you talking about “most women” or the target audience of Dr. Clarke and Dr. Harley? They’re really pretty much the same.

    Indeed. Dr. Harley says he is targeting 80% of marriages where the wife is unhappy (lost the tingle) but there is no infidelity, abandonment, addiction, or abuse. Dr. Clarke describes the same group but claims this accounts for 85% of marriages (husbands). These 80-85% of husbands are the men Dr. Clarke wants wives to “hit over the head with a shovel” (metaphorically of course) and Dr. Harley wants wives to ambush by kicking them out of the house and/or moving out.

    @johnmcg

    I suppose most of the ministers dispensing the “threat” advice would respond that this is a worst-case scenario. That their hope is that husbands will respond to the threat and become the husbands their wives want them to be and all will live happily ever after.

    But I’m not convinced.

    More likely is that a man who responds to these threats will be come a shell of his former self, and someone that his wife still doesn’t love, and she will remain unhappy, to the point where she goes down the road outlined here, much to everyone’s misery.

    Yes, they want credible threats of divorce, they want to use it as a tool to give wives power over their husbands, they don’t want divorce to be the end result. And yes, as you point out the end result is to make both the husband and wife even more miserable.

  24. Pingback: She lost her best friend. | Reaction Times

  25. Scott says:

    Is this posting really accurately titled? Suppose that I took this laptop I’m working on and walked out onto the nearest busy street, then threw it as hard as I could right into traffic. Would it then be accurate to say that I “lost” my computer? When it got run over by a car or truck would it be reasonable for me to say it was destroyed accidentally and I just haven’t got a clue how that happened?

    Perfect.

  26. gargoylevirgin01 says:

    “Another woman has him as a husband and best friend now and he has forgotten me. Good for him.”

    This and other articles and comments about women seeing their ex with a new woman, especially is she is younger and/or more attractive, reveal how she is envious of the woman’s status and power. I remember back in high school senior year, of the little honest truth found within the soup of lies I was given by almost everyone, a female student told me that other women will be attracted toward a guy if he as a beautiful girlfriend. In college, I observed how too many women were attracted to men who went to night clubs, had exes, and/or had other women circling him. To them, having women is a sign of status and power, as discussed so much by the articles and comments on Dalrock’s blog.

    Reminds me of Proverbs 12:4. “An excellent wife is the crown of her husband but she who causes him shame is like rottenness in his bones.” (NKJV) For now, I am going to ignore the second half of his verse, and just talk about the physical aspect of a crown, not including any nobleness or virtue the crown might have.
    According to Google definition: crown: a circular ornamental headdress worn by a monarch as a symbol of authority, usually made of or decorated with precious metals and jewels.
    I guess when a woman sees a man with a younger and/or attractive woman with a man, it sends her a message that the man is someone with authority, power, and status. If she was worn on his head, not literally of course, she would be raised up to a high position for the whole world to admire her.

  27. tickletik says:

    when the ITZ finally arrives (as anonymous conservative puts it), then the tolerance for this kind of nonsense will drop down to zero. Actually, less than zero, in that aggressive men will have gotten both a taste and enjoyment for meting out pain to troublemakers and they will be looking for an excuse to do so.

    At that point, blogs like this will be calling on those men to exercise restraint, and this will be one of the few blogs that any such men will listen to.

  28. greyghost says:

    I think the title comes from a woman’s view. Think about what women are taught. her divorce was not in anyway her fault even if the wife left to be with her boyfriend. If you read the women’s stories even saying she did the act of divorce as her decision she still comes off as victim of something that happened to her. I think we need to just face it that that is the way women are.
    Forget what she says she thinks what is her behavior. How these women feel misery and loneliness and all is how it is supposed to be. Best to let all men know to treat such women with indifference. Any young women entering adulthood must be told this is what men know and understand. The message to women must be delivered with the knowledge of female nature. The message given with kindness is more for the messenger’s sense of being than for the purpose of saving the women from doom. A message of pure brutal cruel truth of reality though unromantic and soothing for the messenger takes full advantage of female nature.

  29. PuffyJacket says:

    So I think most women’s expectations of marriage are completely out of kilter; and they expect too much.

    Yes, I’ve this said this numerous times before. Most advice given to women seeking marriage is generally garbage since it misses this basic principle. The expectations gap will only accelerate by orders of magnitude as MGTOW grows and reduces the pool of male applicants to absurd lows.

    Women still believe they will continue to marry in the same numbers as previous generations, even as all evidence points to the contrary. It will be interesting to see where the “squeal” point is, i.e. at what percentage the marriage rate falls to before female dread officially creeps back in to the marriage market.

    From being around the manosphere for about 4 years now, it’s become very clear to me that the primary problem in marriages today is that women are marrying men to whom they are considerably less attracted to than the men they used to have sex with when they were younger.

    Sure the alpha widow phenomenon is real, but the psychology difference between carousel riders and carousel watchers is not a big one. Even those merely watching from sidelines carry the same absurd expectations into marriage, if not worse since in many cases they believe they are even more “special” for holding out for the right guy into their mid-30’s.

    And if by some miracle a women manages to land one of the top guys for marriage, its still unlikely to last. A substantial element of female unhappiness today derives from their relentless pursuit of hypergamy. By wanting what is logically impossible, they can never truly be happy. Much like a heroin addict who is constantly chasing a better “high”. From this, one can conclude that women are “hard-wired” to be unhappy in a very deep way that men are not.

  30. Atticus says:

    I think I’m banned. That’s ok if my thoughts don’t contribute but could you let me know sink don’t waste time composing responses. still love to read here. It bittersweet since I’m goin through a divorce and wish I’dfound this, rolling and MRP earlier.

  31. Atticus says:

    That one goes through. Go figure.

  32. johnmcg says:

    @Atticus,

    I think there are some automated triggers (e.g. a large number of links) that put a post into moderation.

  33. greyghost says:

    Puffyjacket
    Sex in the city tv series and movies were and are a big hit for the carousel watchers. Not only that the riders are celebrated. Check out where we are now. A woman would be seen and treated as a slut for this in a sane society. And better yet a man of any social status would never want to be known to bed such a women. I guess she forgot that.
    http://www.theladbible.com/articles/a-model-who-slept-with-a-professional-ice-hockey-player-tried-to-blackmail-him-it-really-didn-t-work
    and one more to show it was no fluke
    http://elitedaily.com/sports/girl-julian-edelman-selfie-tinder-banned-boston-clubs/926695/

  34. Jay says:

    Usually when a woman wants to be “friends” with a guy, it doesn’t bode well for him. I guess in this case it backfired on her…

    From a (relatively) young age, my dad (a lady’s man) taught me this (attitude): “If you can get better, you better go” – so many husbands would benefit from that take – as opposed to trying to prevent their ungrateful, disloyal and non-supportive wives to leave. (although I have told my female friends the same, when they needed ‘advice’ – for the n-th time).

    Once she’s not longer “attracted” to you (or imagines she’s not….), nothing can salvage the marriage. Rather cut your losses, lick your wounds and start over. You will feel miserable, guilty, failed and alone for quite a while – which is still better than making each other miserable all the time.

  35. RICanuck says:

    Dr. Harley says the wives are unhappy and neglected, does he consider the husband may feel the same way?

    Does he suggest that they threaten divorce, or that they should jump their husbands’ bone a couple of times a week?

    When one feels neglected, they tend to withdraw so they don’t get hurt so badly. A couple of years ago a woman commented on a Christian manosphere blog, to ask what it meant when he husband asked for sex. It took a lot of men saying it means her husband want sex ‘WITH YOU!’ before she started catching on that he really wanted sex, with her.

    Harley suggests nothing to husbands, and nothing helpful to wives.

    The one time my wife threatened to divorce (in front of one of co-workers), saying that she could go to a lawyer, and get half the equity in the house. I told her, that she would get all of it if she told me she was leaving. But, if I heard it from a lawyer, I would get a lawyer, and between the two of us, we would destroy our lives savings.

    She has never threatened again. She remains challenging, though.

  36. Dalrock says:

    Atticus, I’m not sure why that comment was binned. I don’t see a blacklist rule that would fire for it. Sometimes askimet has false positives on spam detection. I don’t usually check the spam bin anymore because there are hundreds of real spam messages for every false positive. But after seeing your comment I fished it out.

  37. PuffyJacket says:

    @greyghost

    I agree. In saner societies outside the West (even with birth control), that sort of behavior is frowned upon. There is a basic level of “dread” among the female population driving them towards marriage and beta providers. Unsurprisingly, this also leads to better behaved (and happier) women.

  38. Locard says:

    I used to listen to the Harley’s radio show while driving for work for morbid entertainment. Man his wife annoyed the eff out of me after awhile. It was clear he understands the affair dynamic and how to break one up but clueless about preventing one. It all came to a head one day when a woman called in and said she went to a conservative church, and always struggled with submission, but only after she listened to them did she realize she no longer need to. She then described how she was going to separate from him if he didn’t meet her demands and thanked them for clueing her in. The silence from the Harley’s was deafening.

  39. PuffyJacket says:

    @Jay

    True. The fickleness of female attraction is precisely why no man should marry in this country, particularly in today’s environment where this effect has been amplified to 11, and every aspect of law is designed to enrich her for terrible behavior and destroy good men that are the back-bone of civilization. This holds true even if (especially if) you are a PUA.

  40. greyghost says:

    There is a basic level of “dread” among the female population driving them towards marriage and beta providers. Unsurprisingly, this also leads to better behaved (and happier) women.

    This is the main purpose of a civilized society. It is all about the behavior and making being a loyal good wife high status. Know your women. We talk about it all of the time it is just a matter of letting go of the blue pill and having faith it the truth.

  41. SeventyPercent says:

    I’m having this experience from the husband’s side. This past Labor Day weekend my wife of 12 years told me that she wasn’t happy and that she deserved to be happy – perhaps we should think of splitting up. We’ve had rough patches in the past, but this was the first time she admitted to contemplating a divorce. I got past the initial shock and I managed not to get overtly upset about it (at first) so we managed to keep talking. She told me that maybe we were meant to be “best friends” and that we could have an amiable divorce and remain “best friends” in order to effectively raise our children (2 young boys). Also that She would “always love me” because I was “her person” that she leaned on for emotional support and deep friendship. This is the point where I got overtly upset … She wanted to have a divorce that was easy and hassle free for her; all the while maintaining the benefit of keeping my friendship / companionship and my physical support as a “co-parent.”

    It was at this point that I went into a tailspin and just got generally agitated. I cannot remember what I said, I just remember asking myself, “does she realize how incredibly selfish she is being?” If she doesn’t want to be my wife, what makes her think that I would want to be her “BFF” and give her all the benefits that go along with it?

    At this point it had gotten late so she went to bed but I could sleep and I basically stayed awake all night. When she woke up the next morning she “took back” nearly everything she said and told me that she wanted to pursue marriage counseling in order to “straighten out” our relationship, to which I agreed. The counselor is our pastor and to my surprise he has been very even handed in the process so far. I wholly expected him to side with my wife and to make all of the sessions a “let’s dump on (my first name) session.” Fortunately that hasn’t happened.

    I’m just. Posting here because I can relate to husbands to experience this “but you’re my best friend” phenomenon. I brought this situation up in a recent counseling session but my wife made it out like I compleat misunderstood what she said and the counselor said that in the best interest of moving forward that I should just “drop it.” Problem is that I can’t. I’m not sure where to go from here. My wife insists that we have too much to give up in a divorce but I just feel like I am being used and I can’t shake it.

  42. cptnemo2013 says:

    Reblogged this on MGTOW 2.0.

  43. Dragonfly says:

    Ok, so I’m starting to understand the problem with Dr. Harley’s advice about the emotional needs… he’s giving women a gun in their hands to basically shoot their marriage if their husband doesn’t do XYZ. I never got that before, his book on His Needs Her Needs seemed true, simplistic, and basic, and in some ways, yes, husbands should love their wives, that’s biblical… but this paired with him giving advice for women to use divorce as a threat to get her husband to make her happy (“meet her needs”), is where it crosses the line. He’s giving her weapons to hold her husband at threatpoint, not tools to make the marriage better. He’s giving her “valid reasons” in the guise of “needs” that she can use to manipulate control so that she’s the one leading the marriage where she wants it to go. Wow.

  44. gargoylevrigin01 says:

    @thedeti
    “it’s become very clear to me that the primary problem in marriages today is that women are marrying men to whom they are considerably less attracted to than the men they used to have sex with when they were younger. Don’t get me wrong. These women really do like these men they’re marrying. I think they do love these men at first and when the marriage gets started, when there is lots of new relationship energy and she is excited about getting married (which excitement she mistakes for sexual attraction). There is even a little sexual attraction there.”
    Some science and engineering might show why there is little sexual attraction.
    In an experiment done on fruit flies by the University of South Wales, the first male to mate with the female indirectly affects the other offspring of other males that mate with that female. If a large fruit fly mates the female first, the offspring of small fruit flies that mate with the female afterwards will be large. If a small fruit fly mates the female first, the offspring of large fruit flies that mate with the female afterwards will be small. This concept is known as telegony.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11133203/Could-previous-lovers-influence-appearance-of-future-children.html
    Here is something else I found also. This is from an article written by a female:
    “Scientists have discovered that a sizeable minority of women have Y-chromosome gene sequences in their blood…Cells from the pregnancy will reside within the mother’s bloodstream and organs for the rest of her life, even if the pregnancy was terminated or if there was a miscarriage. There is a name for this so-called condition, it is called microchimerism…This called for a study (2) that was done by immunologists at the Fred Hutchinson Caner Center in 2004. In the study, they took samples from 120 women who had never had sons. They found that 21% of these women had male DNA….Now being older and more connected to my spiritual self I realize that sex is not something that is meant to be thrown around and given out so freely, it is a sacred act that creates a bond between two people that love and care about each other.”
    http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/18/this-study-will-make-you-think-twice-about-who-you-are-getting-into-bed-with/
    Dalrock, have you read anything related to this? Would this make a good article to reflect on?
    On YouTube, I brought all this up, including how when a male has sex with a female virgin, it is a blood covenant since she bleeds and does not bleed again after that, as stated in the Bible.
    A feminist reacted angrily at me. She said that the fruit fly and Bible stuff were bulls*** and calls me bats***.
    She also says this: “So what about girls who break their hymen doing gymnastics? Do they have a covenant with a gym mat?”
    I can’t believe feminists would compare the sacredness of sex to getting hurt doing gymnastics.

  45. cynthia says:

    @gargoyle

    I can’t believe feminists would compare the sacredness of sex to getting hurt doing gymnastics.

    Nothing is sacred to feminists, and all that is sacred to others must be desecrated. To that woman, sex is nothing more than silly good-fun feelings, and you’re the idiot for thinking part of those mechanics mean anything.

  46. feeriker says:

    @SeventyPercent:

    Brother, I’m so sorry to hear about your situation. Especially tragic is that you have two little boys who are suffering because of their mother’s solipsism and selfishness.

    She told me that maybe we were meant to be “best friends” and that we could have an amiable divorce and remain “best friends” in order to effectively raise our children (2 young boys). Also that She would “always love me” because I was “her person” that she leaned on for emotional support and deep friendship.

    My soon-to-be-ex pulled this same nonsense: she wanted all the benefits of marriage without any of the responsibility and commitment, using the same “we can still be friends, can’t we, even if I don’t want to live with you anymore?” line.

    The answer to this has to be a firm no, not only for your own sake, but, believe it or not, for her sake as well. A husband does a rebellious wife no favors by catering to her childish, emotion-drive primal urges. The best medicine for such a woman, one who refuses to repent or repair her marriage*, is, quite frankly, to be put in “Constance’s” position (i.e., not realizing the value of what you have until it’s gone and you can’t replace it).

    I certainly don’t know you or your situation, so far be it from me to give advice. But allow me an observation, based on my own experience and that of other men I know who’ve been in your (and my) shoes: once a woman gets this scheme into her head, it doesn’t go away, nor does she regain her attraction for her husband. Short of a spiritual epiphany leading to a Holy Spirit-filled repentance in which she completely breaks down, throws herself at your feet, and weeps, begs, and pleads for forgiveness, she is no longer trustworthy. The marriage bond has effectively been broken. (Do you suspect she might have cheated on you? My STBX did.)

    Let me say that I wish you all the best and sincerely hope that the Lord “knocks some sense” into your wife before she does something reckless that she’ll regret for the rest of her days and that you two can be healed. If worse comes to worst, it’s not the end of the world for you (although it might seem like you can see it at times). While I won’t go into details, let’s just say that my own marital experience has given me an outlook very much like Pitt Harman’s upthread. Twenty-plus years of malignant, negative, contentious misery GONE. It feels like a new lease on life! Oh, and I’m not hurting for female attention either…

    In short, there are worse things than finding yourself alone again. Staying “married” to someone who no longer loves you (or who never really did in the first place, throwing a toxic personality into the mix to prove it) is near the top of the list.

    (* Had no interest whatsoever in repairing her marriage –indeed, treated the very idea with contempt– until the husband she abandoned said that he wanted to remain abandoned, at which point marriage counseling/conciliation suddenly became an urgent priority.)

  47. Pingback: Marriage bond – broken | chokingonredpills

  48. Pingback: Divorce – A wonderful ‘gift’ | chokingonredpills

  49. MarcusD says:

    Why is dating and finding the ONE so difficult
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=983639

    Commitment to Marriage in Spite of Divorce?
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=983759

  50. jonakc1 says:

    Focus on the family
    Mark Driscoll
    etc are also complementarians
    need I say more?

  51. jonakc1 says:

    Focus on the family
    Mark driscoll etc are also complementarians…

    men leading their wives by pretending to be women and running the home is not what the bible teaches

    complementarians are just egalitarians with gender specific terminology but gender neutral actions…

  52. Jay says:

    @ PuffyJacket

    I’m no PUA – too introverted – and probably not shallow enough (with all respect – I’m not judging)…. When I was in college, I had the warped idea of equality between man and woman. Obviously that led me nowhere with women. As that is not truly attractive to them.
    However, at a deeper level, I was always put off anyway by most ‘modern’ girls’ expectations, demands and entitlement – as if only THEY are/were the price – and the guy, well, nothing more than their sperm-donor and provider (both financially and emotionally). At the mercy of her whims, mood-swings and the latest fad in the relationship-cotton-industry…. Not surprisingly, I never got married🙂

    As for the attraction within (!) a marriage, many men should just ‘man up’ when it comes to sex. Being the leader that turns her into a whore in the bedroom (while remaining a lady in public, of course). Took me a couple of decades before that sank in…. Controversial David Shade (‘Masterful Lover’ – despised by feminists AND conservatives – a feat in itself!) made me see the light. Another book by him… ‘Choose wisely’ – if more people did, this world would be a better place, with happier people…

  53. unsigma says:

    Did I miss something? On Saturday it was “5 years after the divorce” but in 2010 the original blog post says “7 years after the divorce?”

    You can just tell me I am wrong.

  54. Newdist says:

    @SeventyPercent is she cheating on you? Would you know if she was? Are you sure?

  55. gargoylevrigin01 says:

    @Cynthia
    You call me an idiot by nitpicking my comment because of the sentence, “I can’t believe…”?!?! Did it ever occur to you that that was a tongue and cheek statement? I know feminists don’t consider sex sacred. I’m the idiot for thinking part of those mechanics mean anything? just to that feminist or to others?
    I am suspicious that something else in my comment made you upset, perhaps reminded something in your past, if you get what I am trying to say.

  56. leeleeinbabylon says:

    That’s really sad. You can’t tear “one flesh” apart and expect to ever be whole again. Of course sometimes that’s how it has to be (infidelity) but otherwise I think our whole society downplays the permanent suffering of divorce.

  57. Jay says:

    @ unsigma – they are not the same woman. Constance only commented on the original post (about the former “frivolousdivorce” blogger), chiming in with a similar story.

    This line threw me off for a moment (indeed):
    “Constance, the former blogger referenced above, and millions of other divorced women…” – it should read: “Constance and the former blogger referenced above, plus millions of other divorced women…..”

  58. Hawk&Rock says:

    “Suppose that I took this laptop I’m working on and walked out onto the nearest busy street, then threw it as hard as I could right into traffic. Would it then be accurate to say that I “lost” my computer? When it got run over by a car or truck would it be reasonable for me to say it was destroyed accidentally and I just haven’t got a clue how that happened?”

    In modern parlance you would “find yourself without a computer.” Just as many women “find themselves pregnant” or “find themselves in an affair” or “find themselves divorced.”

    Nothing and no(female)one need be blamed. These things just happen.

    Great analogy, btw.

  59. thedeti says:

    Sorry to hear of feeriker’s and 70%’s situations.

  60. JDG says:

    gargoylevrigin01 says:
    October 20, 2015 at 7:47 am

    My impression was that cynthia was saying that the woman (the feminist in question) thinks that you (and all who think like you, and me for that matter) are an idiot for having what THEY (feminists) consider to be antiquated values.

    I understood her comment to mean the following: To that woman … you’re the idiot for thinking part of those mechanics mean anything.

  61. Is Jonckc GBFM? Inquiring minds.

  62. >80% of divorce is caused by neglect”

    Correct. Almost all failed marriages are neglect caused by the wife sexually withdrawing her favors and failing to control her bitch urges while her husband flails around, desperate to please her so he might get a peek at her golden vagina.

    Weaponizing sex is the reason men withdraw their “emotional presence” or whatever bullshit term they are using today. Weaponizing sex is the reason almost all marriages fail.

    Very, very few marriages are destroyed by the husband neglecting the wife emotionally which is what this putz is claiming. He even notes that women in abusive, addiction type marriages stay together while the marriages of good guys don’t.

    So how can the solution to be more like the “good guy” who gets frivorce-raped and less like the “bad guy” who stays married and gets laid like tile?

    I think these marriage counselor types know exactly what they are doing. They know it doesn’t work- and they don’t care. They just want press and cash and then disappear into the wreckage of our culture.

  63. @Jay: “Once she’s not longer “attracted” to you (or imagines she’s not….), nothing can salvage the marriage. Rather cut your losses, lick your wounds and start over.”

    We have an entire praexology for restoring attraction that works quite well. You are wrong. You can argue one can always find hotter/younger/tighter but you can’t argue loss of attraction means loss of marriage. No way.

  64. Jay says:

    @ bluepillprofessor It is not about finding hotter/younger. It is about leaving a disgruntled wife that is not longer prepared (!) or capable to see ANY good in her husband (as per OP).
    I admit, I have been accused of seeing things in extremes (I’m a simple soul, I dislike ‘complicated’ stuff…), so, educate me\us (I’m not married, but I’m interested in psychology and relationships).

  65. Dalrock says:

    @unsigma

    Did I miss something? On Saturday it was “5 years after the divorce” but in 2010 the original blog post says “7 years after the divorce?”

    You can just tell me I am wrong.

    They are different women, even though their stories are very much alike.

  66. Solomon says:

    I’d say that Constance needs to focus on her relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, to find peace now, rather than an endless state of grief. I appreciate her anguish over her terrible decision, but for goodness sake, make peace with it, make peace with God, and be reconciled to the Prince of Peace.

    As for the divorce peddlers saying that “neglect” is the driving force behind most divorces, I’d say that is partially true, in that the men neglect to wield any dominance or authority in their homes, thereby leaving it rudderless. But the other part is ridiculous Disney expectations, and endless courtship expectations. Life is a hard grind, folks, and selling the “soul-mate / happiness” schtick sets these women up to perceive they are neglected or shortchanged, when the reality is that they usually have it quite good.

    Any other male neglect will likely most stem from the man withdrawing from his wife as though recoiling from a poisonous snake, when she is in “punish him with her presence” mode.

  67. @Dalrock, oh man, the christo-feminist faction is gnashing their teeth on this one:
    http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/03/7-ways-to-discipline-your-wife/

    Enjoy!

  68. BradA says:

    I would agree with Solomon, many Christians have incorrectly pushed the idea that a husband must continually court his wife. Part of that is accurate, since a husband needs to constantly keep his proper frame, but he should not be kept on the “proving himself” treadmill forever.

  69. gargoylevirgin01 says:

    @Cynthia
    If JDG was right about what you meant, I apologize.

  70. BradA, Courting ends the minute you get married. You need to find another word that fits the idea you are talking about.

  71. An honest question.

    If she were the one who found a new partner and he was left lonely after her divorce, would she have written the same post?

    I doubt it.

  72. tweell says:

    Jay, as was pointed out in a recent post, minds and attitudes can be changed without divorce, as was done in the past. The ease of divorce currently (and the ‘cash and prizes’ meme) makes it less probable that this will happen, but it doesn’t have to be that way. All marriages have ups and downs. All in all, I had a good marriage, raised five children, and am thankful. However…

    At one point in my marriage, I was the blue pill fool, believing all the BS that Focus on the Family put out, taking over more home duties, deferring to my wife in all things and failing miserably because of it. My wife announced that she was divorcing me.

    At that point I told her that she’d never get a man half as good, since 50 year old divorced women were a glut on the market, and she’d never see or hear from me again. I then told my children goodbye and started packing. My wife demanded that I get the divorce papers ready, along with alimony and child support paperwork. I told her I would not break the vows I had made, but I would not stay for more abuse. At this point she capitulated, and agreed to behave.

    I refused to go to more counseling, pointing out that her favorite marriage counselor had just been divorced, and started changing my behavior back to the way I had been when we met. I regained my masculinity in little steps, fighting with her all the way, but the end result was more happiness for everyone. When she was dying from cancer she admitted that the divorce would have been a horrible mistake.

    I swore an oath before God, and it would not be me that broke that oath.

  73. greyghost says:

    Solomon
    By law no man leads a damn thing. This is all just an intellectual drill. My comments and ideas are geared to that reality with the idea to change culture and attitudes to maybe change the law. The Church chose the easy way and changed the ready of scripture to the garbage we discuss here. outside of the church we have the manosphere MGTOW, PUA, and the peter pans.
    Changing attitudes and cultures and discussion ways to do that in this world would be an interesting drill

  74. greyghost says:

    Rollo
    How did you find him? he is just telling it like it is.

  75. I’ve personally conducted in the archives of government statistics on the causes of divorce lead me to believe that as many as 80% of all divorces are caused by neglect.

    Right… like when women neglect their vows and file divorce? For example they: neglect till death do us part, (ie not to abandon the marriage and file divorce), neglect to have and to hold (ie sexual passion and availability), neglect to love and cherish,(ie to make some sammiches), neglect to honor and obey (you know like patriarchy that built civilization)… I may have neglected a few other causes, but as Seals and Crofts once sang “if you want me to be closer to you then get closer to me”. Most men are still in the driving seat, it is their passenger that has moved or abandoned the journey.

  76. Original Laura says:

    @SeventyPercent:

    I was married for twelve years to a man who never went more than a week or so without “thinking out loud” about whether he would be better off staying married or getting divorced. Ultimately, it’s pure manipulation and it destroys the trust that marriage is built on. By the time he made his final decision to get divorced, my initial feeling was one of relief, even though I knew that I would be in a very difficult financial situation.

    Don’t make any hasty decisions. Even if the marriage is doomed, it might be better to postpone the inevitable for as long as you can. The older your wife is at the time of the divorce, the less likely she is to get remarried to a man who will become your children’s stepfather. The older the children are at the time of the divorce, the easier the logistics of shared custody, and the shorter the period of time that you have to have shared custody. There are also fewer issues to fight over the older the children are, because certain childrearing decisions will already have been made (religion, school choice, domicile, etc.)

    If she ever talks again about how she wants to separate/divorce but remain good friends, tell her that if there is a divorce, “we would both move on with our lives at that point.” Don’t be nasty about it, but don’t let her imagine that you are going to be coming over after work to fix her furnace or take down the storm windows post divorce. About six months after we legally separated, my ex had second thoughts about parting with me entirely, and asked me to agree to get legally divorced but continue to live together and raise the children together. He would also have a separate bachelor pad at the beach and would live there part time. The ever-helpful marriage counselor said that my STBX was having difficulty with the idea that after the divorce was over, he wouldn’t have the stability of marriage, and he also didn’t want me to marry someone else. The marriage counselor thought that that was sweet, and that it meant that he still cared about me.

    What your wife wants is the female equivalent of the “Captain’s Paradise.” She wants to keep her standard of living, she wants you to feel obligated to help her out with various problems as she ages, she wants to hang on to you to some extent as a social prop and as an emotional outlet, but she doesn’t want to meet any of your needs at all. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. You CANNOT trust her.

  77. Hugo Stiglitz says:

    Tweell,

    Never, ever leave your home or your bed. Keep frame.

    If my wife is pissed and I do not care to keep the “discussion” (she’ll say we are discussing not arguing) I let her leave the bed and sleep on couch.

    She actually got a hotel one night. I gave her 20 min to get home or she gets all her things on the lawn. She thought I was bluffing, but pushed the time limit to 45. She got to cart all her things back into the house and put them away. We are talking upscale neighborhood too. I told her next time she will not have keys that work and the garage door chain will be pulled until I change it, along with checking accounts.

    No threats again.

  78. BradA says:

    FH, I didn’t word that well. He should actively maintain his frame (likely called game here), not that he should continue to court at all. Some of that frame maintenance may seem like courting, but it would definitely not be the same thing. I should have been clearer.

  79. J1J2 says:

    “You lay your bets, and then you pay the price. The things we do for love.”
    A lot of women these days are, under the influence of naïve ideologies, making bad bets not only about who to start having sex with, but about who to stop having sex with. It hurts both ways.
    (Similar comment originally posted to wrong place …)

  80. BradA says:

    greyghost,

    By law no man leads a damn thing.

    Not true. I lead my family. Perhaps not perfectly, but my wife knows I would ultimately walk if otherwise was shoved on me. I might have been less hesitant to leave in my formerly blue pill-ish days, but I still had the same mindset.

    I refuse to live in a strife filled home and I would sin by walking out before I would fold and be a puppy or live with ongoing strife. I don’t care what the legal consequences are, that is my position. I would bet I am not that much of a special snowflake in that area.

  81. greyghost says:

    I refuse to live in a strife filled home and I would sin by walking out before I would fold and be a puppy or live with ongoing strife. I don’t care what the legal consequences are, that is my position. I would bet I am not that much of a special snowflake in that area.

    Outstanding. BradA showing some hardness.

  82. SeventyPercent says:

    @freeriker @newdist @thedeti @Original Laura

    Thank you for your replies and words of wisdom.

    Without going into my / our entire history, suffice it to say that my situation is very complicated and has been so for a long time. My wife and I basically grew up together and only had minor “significant others” before dating as teenagers and getting married in our early 20’s.

    I am diagnosed with Severe Anxiety Disorder secondary to PTSD. Don’t want to get into too much detail but I spent time in the Middle East. It popped up about 9-10 years ago. My wife recognized it rather quickly but I denied it and struggled with it for a long time before getting any professional help. I “self-medicated” with alcohol, over-work, and other various obsessions. One such obsession became this unshakable belief that she was cheating on me. Thing is that for her to have a physical affair is and has been logistically impossible. She is mostly a SAHM and she works part-time mostly at night at a hospital. During the day she is at home with the boys. I have access to cell phone records, facebook accounts, and we are on each other’s “locate my iphone” accounts. So if she was in fact cheating, she would have been caught. I’ve never had any bona fide evidence beyone a hunch that she was cheating even though I would have the evidence almost instantly if she did. This all started about a year ago. I didn’t confront her with my suspicions but she picked up my phone to Google something one day and my search “how do I know if my wife is having an affair” popped up in the auto-complete list that show up when you do a google search. Needless to say, she lost it and got extremely upset. Hasn’t forgotten about it. While she insists that my “issue” has not caused her to lose attraction to me, I know better. How could it not?

    The morning after she openly contemplated divorce while remaining friends (a la Original Laura’s female Captain’s Paradise), she “took back” the idea and talked at length about how we have too much together that we shouldn’t give up – in other words, a divorce would wreck everything. So I thought that meant that in her mind that divorce was “off the table” so to speak but I’m not convinced. Like you’ve all suggested, how could I trust her?

    On the plus side, she got proactive about going on more dates, we have sex more frequently now (from 2-3 times a month to 2-3 times a week), she insists on the marriage counseling and constantly talks about how productive it has been after each session, she talks about renewing our marriage vowels and even having another child at some point in the next few years. These are all great things, but I can’t shake that at one point she expressed the desire for such a one-sided “divorce arragement.” In the back of my mind I cannot accept all of these positive turns in the marriage without thinking there’s some ulterior motive for them.

    Then the issue of her SMV comes into play. She has a friend whose husband basically threw her to the curb recently so my wife is witnessing first hand how difficult it is for a newly divorced woman with children to re-enter the dating scene. She knows that she isn’t as physically attractive as she used to be and that her dating options are, in the words of Athol Kay, “being pumped and dumped by men objectively worse than her husband.” To top that off, we accompanied me to an appointment with my doctor, an unmarried female who’s roughly my age. Very interesting woman and while not as attractive as my wife, can doll-up pretty nice. My doc is pretty friendly but after we left my wife told me that I have to find a new doctor. When I asked why she said “are you kidding me? She hit on you right in front of me! Obviously she likes you in an inapproriate way!” To which I was stunned because I didn’t get that vibe at all. Maybe she sees that other (accomplished) women are interested in me and would be happy to be my wife? I don’t know. Really confused.

    Ultimately I am going to follow Original Laura’s advice and stay the course. Alpha-up and become more of what Dr. Glover (No More Mr. Nice Guy!) would call an “integrated man.”

    Thanks again

  83. BradA says:

    70%,

    You seem to properly be analyzing your own view too. Take the advice here in context. Make sure you keep fixing yourself, but definitely don’t just blindly head out, whoever recommends it.

    A good thing for you to do would probably to get a man with a strong internal frame to help you evaluate your own actions and check your thoughts with. That would be likely to help you as you could lead in the home, but have an outlet to work things out.

    You can make it alone (especially if that is with God), but that is a rougher road to follow, something I know from experience.

  84. Mulier says:

    @SeventyPercent

    Just to echo OriginalLaura and BradA, you’re in charge here. Your wife shouldn’t have brought up her divorce fantasy to you, and I can’t claim to know how a husband should act, but as a wife I know I would find it both appealing and Christian for you to: first, chastise her for speaking that way, second, affirm that if you divorce you will never be “best friends,” third, offer forgiveness (while acknowledging that you have not been perfect either, of course), and fourth, actually forgive her and drop it, unless she gives you good cause to bring it up again.

    That said, you might want to back away from some of the more extreme voices in the manosphere (by which I do not mean either Dalrock or Athol Kay). But if you are a Christian, then you acknowledge that your wife is also made in the image of God and that your job as her husband is to love her, wash her in the word, and lead her.

    After all, from what you have told us, your wife does not sound terrible. She apparently was not sleeping around before marriage; she stood by you through anxiety, paranoia about her fidelity, and self-medicating with alcohol; she has been a SAHM to your boys but also worked part-time as a nurse, which is pretty good money for the hours worked and must also have involved working some nights and then dealing with the home front the next day. If the worst thing she has ever done is tell you that she fantasizes about being free, which she followed up by taking it all back, going to counseling with you, and sexing you up, is that unforgiveable, especially if she is the weaker vessel?

    More to the point, are you sure that what she was trying to communicate to you was a selfish fantasy of you taking care of her while she dated other men? Just reading your life story, it seems equally plausible that she was trying to communicate to you that she still cared about you platonically, that she was not rejecting you completely, and that she was grateful to you for everything you had contributed to her life. This is the kind of thing a woman might say to a man she feels sorry for: a man that she may have perceived to have been crippled by PTSD, anxiety, and alcoholism, whom she does love but does not think of as her rock.

    I’m sorry this may be offensive, but the way forward for you is to be her rock, to brush off her moments of emotions and not indulge them, but to provide that mix of comfort and leadership that, as Athol Kay describes, speaks to the deepest desires of women. Of course don’t pander to her, but also don’t let the cry of AWALT prevent you from seeing whether your wife really was more precious than rubies all along, despite her manifold failures.

  85. JDG says:

    I just added the “biblicalgenderroles.com” link to my favorites list. Thank you Rollo.

  86. I agree jonakc1, the egalitarian/complementarian divide is like the trans/cis divide. Something to be wholly rejected. I’m not “cisgendered”, I’m a male. My marriage isn’t complementarian, it is a marriage (now). Egalitarian and complementarian are symptoms of a marriage disease.

    How does the Bible/God define marriage, Four words sum it up well: Husband loves/Wife submits.

    Neither the husband loving nor the wife submitting is natural. That’s why God commanded us to do them anyway. They are acts of obedience, failing them is rebellion. Evanglelical feminism has been doing nothing but promoting and obfuscating the resultant rebellion (calling it strength and independence).

  87. Pingback: Alpha Widow Society | Spawny's Space

  88. Wibbins says:

    Dal, I have a question, when I hear the phrase “happy wife, happy life” it’s like hearing nails on a chalk board, it usually comes from men that let their wives make all decisions and just let her do everything, is there any way to push back on this concept?

  89. Dale says:

    >She also says this: “So what about girls who break their hymen doing gymnastics? Do they have a covenant with a gym mat?”

    To the women commenters: Is this actually possible or likely? It seems to me that a woman who claims that her hymen broke while horseback riding or landing on the floor is simply lying/deceiving. The hymen is a bit inside the body, not stuck on the outside. Something would have to penetrate into the body a bit for the hymen to be affected. Unless someone wants to claim that the hymen is so slender, that the affect of rapid acceleration/deceleration on the body can tear it (e.g., her whole body stops suddenly, as when running into a wall or hitting the floor, and the hymen therefore spontaneously bursts).
    Given the willingness of people to lie to preserve their reputation or status, deception seems vastly more likely.
    Comments? Corrections?

  90. @ Dale,
    My understanding is that every woman’s hymen is different in thickness and in how “attached” it is inside.
    I was a virgin when I my husband and I married, and sex was painful for about a month or so afterwards, but I never bled.
    Not really sure if gymnastics or horse riding could break it, but I imagine it is possible, if the hymen was very thin to begin with. Are there any OBs in the house?

  91. Dragonfly says:

    @SS, one of my **favorite** professors at university had been an OB – I took Biology of Reproduction with her – such a fascinating class!

    -Yes, they’re all different in thickness, plasticity, etc. Some even have an opening so tiny that it has to be cut surgically the first time (my own mom had that… so awful but fixable!).
    -Yes, different activities can break it or tear it a little, even stretch it so that it doesn’t “rip” their first time….
    -Usually it bleeds the first time, but not as much as you’d think – you might have bled but not have noticed it (?) I was virgin, too, and definitely bled, but just thankful I didn’t have my mom’s experience :O

    Dale – I would be a little suspicious if a girl said that… women know that men don’t like to think they had lots of partners (or as many as they actually did) so it’s *known* in these parts that women tend to lie about their sexual experience. But at the same time, I’ve read and heard that it can happen. If they use tampons as well, they can accidentally perforate part of it.

    Sex doesn’t really “pop” her cherry so to speak… it’s more that it grinds the hymen away gradually… hence it taking time, or sex hurting for a month or at the very least… many days when a virgin.

  92. The Original Laura says:

    @Dale & @SeriouslyServing:

    Since the use of tampons became almost universal, the percentage of Western women with completely unstretched hymens is probably vanishingly small. I was a virgin when I married, and it was painful, but there was either no blood, or too little to notice. I did develop “Honeymoon Cystitis” or somesuch and had to see an OB/GYN to get that treated. The doctor told me that it was an extremely common condition for newly married females.

    Sylvia Plath’s first sexual experience (1950s) led to so much blood loss that she had to be hospitalized and undergo surgery to stop the bleeding. The doctor told her that she was “one in a million.” I’m assuming that she had a vein or something that was either in the hymen or very close to it. Maybe it was some kind of very minor birth defect. At the other extreme, I’m sure some girls are born without hymens. I know there is a common birth defect in which the hymen has no natural opening, which only becomes a problem with the onset of periods.

    The biggest cause of accidental torn hymens probably involves minor bicycle mishaps. A sudden stop or fall results in a painful encounter with the pointed part of the bicycle seat. Tree climbing can also lead to a torn hymen, as sooner or later you may land awkwardly on a branch, etc. If while riding a horse you bounce up and then land on a saddle horn (Western saddle) that would definitely be all it would take to tear a hymen, as that would be far more violent an injury than first-time intercourse. I don’t know much about gymnastics, but falling off of one piece of equipment onto a different piece of equipment could result in the same sort of injury.

    One of my cousin’s friends, a very healthy young woman in her twenties, ended up with crippling spinal cord injuries from a five-mile-an-hour grocery store parking lot fender bender accident that caused only minor damage to the car. People are different. If a woman told me that she fell on the floor and it caused her hymen to tear, I would probably believe her if I considered her to be a reasonably truthful person. If she wanted to be deceitful, why not claim to have had an injury from a bike or a horse? I don’t think that that is a common way to tear a hymen, but I have no doubt at all that it has happened on occasion.

    I just remembered that one of my young, virginal cousins had a gynecological injury of some sort (probably a torn hymen — I was reared so delicately that I knew to refrain from asking) that was caused by falling while water skiing.

  93. My wife listened to FotF yesterday. They were putting an abuse Hotline number up and using what sounded like the Duluth model for “abuse”. Recommending counseling and divorce if “your husband makes decisions without you”. She hadn’t heard FotF for a while and thought I had been overstating how bad it was.

  94. Anchorman says:

    She lost her best friend: Social Status

  95. Anchorman says:

    Make no mistake, if she remained showered in attention and “empowerment,” she wouldn’t give a thought to her ex-husband’s situation. Did she immediately “regret” losing her best friend? Nope.

    His happiness is only mentioned because she’s unhappy. If he got back on his feet and she was Belle of the Frivorce Ball, she wouldn’t give his life a thought or lament the loss of him in her life. If she was a super star after divorce and he crashed or worse, she would look back with a smug smile and whisper, “I jumped off at the right time…”

    She hit post-divorce reality, like my ex did, and feels anger that she masks as regret. Depression as anger turned inward, expressed outwardly as regret and despondence.

  96. SeventyPercent says:

    @Mulier

    Thank you for your wisdom. Great post. Great Advice.

    You are awfully perceptive; now I understand what she meant when she said that she “felt all alone in holding everything together” and that before all this went down she “felt protected.” Talked about it with her and it’s a situation of her not having the strength to continue standing by me while I don’t take the steps to fix myself. I’ve started therapy both privately and with the VA and I have been on an effective medication regimen for almost a year now. I have to continue everything in order to reclaim my position as head of the household and to become the calm in the storm. She will help me as long as I am willing to help myself.

    You are also correct in that I need to avoid the more extreme voices in the manosphere. I was accepting somewhat of the “divorce fantasy” until I started reading the strident “red pill” blogs in depth. All things in moderation I suppose.

    Thanks again and take care.

  97. Urban II says:

    70%,

    I can empathize. I am in a similar situation (my own mental issues, sorting them out while trying to still be the leader and be strong). Take actions that advance your own healing, but don’t dwell on the pain and issues with her, as she will be discomforted by it. Answer questions if they are something she should know, and tell her what you are doing so that she is assured you are taking control.

    She may need the stress and business of her two duties, since women seem to be least happy when they’re least occupied, but words of appreciation (like from a CO to a dependable NCO) are helpful. Don’t fawn or supplicate, but make sure she knows you understand her value, and that it is a crucial part of your family.

    Finally, rail her so she’s walking funny as much as possible. Mine gets seriously deeply unsettled when I don’t blow by her attempts to fend me off and pound her. Ironically, I probably don’t do it often enough. You’ll know her needs, you’ve seen her with and without.

    Good luck brother. Pray to the Holy Mother and St Joseph. And kick ass.

  98. OKRickety says:

    After seeing God_is_Laughing’s comment, I found this in the transcript of the Focus on the Family broadcast aired on 10/20/2015

    Jim Daly (President of Focus on the Family):
    Doris, what’s so beautiful in one respect and I find this amazing capacity in women to look into their own heart first. I mean, the Lord, I think when He was talkin’ about the log in your own eye and the speck in your brother’s eye, I think He was really aiming that at men (Laughter) because women do it so well. And I see it in my wife. She can turn inside quickly and say, “Where have I failed?” And she can, I think like you, carry guilt for certain things that she should not and women should not carry guilt for.

    Women look into their own heart first to see where they fail? Daly contends Jesus was primarily addressing men about the log and the speck because women already do it so well? Women can carry guilt? Women quickly ask, “Where have I failed?” That must be before they “correct” themselves and realize they should be asking, “What man is responsible?”

  99. Disillusioned says:

    What is missing from this woman’s narrative is how somewhere between her deciding to divorce her husband and shortly afterwards she decided to ride the carousel. That was part of the allure. Then she noticed that she was being pumped and dumped by lesser and lesser good looking dudes. At the end no one was as good looking as her ex. This was when the devil lifted her blindfolds and she saw what she did and where she is now. Seven years later with faded beauty.

  100. Dale says:

    The Original Laura, DragonFly and SeriouslyServing:

    Thanks for the info.

  101. Mulier says:

    @ SeventyPercent

    I think you’ve got this completely in hand, and I’m glad you’ve got the forward momentum going.

    My husband went through a very difficult period that lasted for many years in which I had to keep everything together for us and our children. I found it very stressful, and I thought at the time that it was no wonder men have heart attacks when they are 50, with the burden of the whole family laid on top of them. (Unlike you, my husband was not working during his difficulties.) I don’t know if men are better designed for this stress than women (the heart attack rate suggests that it takes its toll!), but I believe your wife that she felt like she couldn’t hold things together anymore. I’ve never understood the male perspective in the sense that it is hard for me to understand how anyone can have the fortitude to be the head of the household through everything that life throws at you. I could only manage it because there was no other choice–my husband literally wasn’t able to get out of bed because the world had gone so dark for him.

    But now that he is thriving and back on his feet, and I can relax back into being just the wife, the whole episode is just part of the richness of our marriage. We’re proud of each other for what we’ve been through, and the marriage feels like we are accepting of each other’s weak points in a way that it didn’t when we were just idealistic newlyweds. It is sad to me when I read some of the more extreme voices on the manosphere suggest that a woman simply doesn’t love a man who isn’t fulfilling her basest calculations. Even when my husband was at rock bottom, I loved him. It wasn’t sexually attractive to see him brought so low, but I still wanted to see him happy again and no longer in pain. Now that he has put himself back together, he trusts me that I will be there for him even in dark days, and I respect him in part because I know that he was truly tested and came out on top. I think we both know that we are not alone in a more profound sense than before.

    You might consider posting a MAP on MMSL for all of the positive and clear-minded support you’ll get there as you consolidate your position. And, uh, I second Urban II’s advice on giving your wife some dominant thrills in the bedroom. It helps a lot!

    All the best,

    Mulier

  102. Allison says:

    Mulier, your comments are what it’s all about. Thanks for that.

  103. Dave says:

    I just added the “biblicalgenderroles.com” link to my favorites list. Thank you Rollo.

    Careful though. The author seems to confuse the grace of God which overlooks our unbelief and weaknesses with His acceptance of lying.

    He/she wrote:

    “…The Scriptures are quite clear, lying is not always wrong….”
    When Scriptures make it unequivocally clear that liars will not be accepted into God’s presence:

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

    For without [i.e excluded from the eternal Kingdom] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelations 22:15

    God is very serious about honesty in our day to day lives and will not tolerate deceptive behavior at all. Lying, or deceptive behavior, is actually a manifestation of the spirit of the devil himself. The devil, we are told “is a liar from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him”

    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

    Thus, we must be careful of any writer who says God will overlook our lies, or that lying is not always wrong, when God minced no word in condemning lying in His word.

    The examples the author quoted actually showed the grace of God in dealing with some people who were too fearful to tell the truth. God worked with them despite their lying, not because of it. At one time, He even told Prophet Samuel to pretend to go to Bethlehem to offer a sacrifice to God, when indeed he went to anoint a replacement for king Saul (1 Samuel 16:1-5). The fact, though, is that God stoop to the level of the faith of Samuel, and worked him at his level, not that he condoned lying. Of course, if God expressly tells someone to lie, and the person lies as a result, then the lie is not a lie, because God Himself

    Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Ephesians 4:25; Zechariah 8:16

  104. @Mullier: “It is sad to me when I read some of the more extreme voices on the manosphere suggest that a woman simply doesn’t love a man who isn’t fulfilling her basest calculations. Even when my husband was at rock bottom, I loved him.”

    If you didn’t cut him off at rock bottom you must be that unicorn they always talk about. Hi!

    What you call “love” we call “fulfilling her hypergamy.” Same thing, less sexy name.

  105. thedeti says:

    Amirantes:

    I read the article in the Daily Fail.

    I don’t see where it’s “all men’s fault” that these 50 something women who are attractive for their ages can’t get sex. Except maybe the fact that men want casual sex; and that’s all they seem to be able to get.

    But men wanting casual sex is nothing new. And men (or at least some men) have had no problem getting casual sex from women. And there are a lot of lesser value men who want in on some of that action. I can’t say as I blame them, really — not when at least one of these women described in the article had a “promiscuous” past revealed by a fibroid tumor.

  106. feeriker says:

    Women look into their own heart first to see where they fail? Daly contends Jesus was primarily addressing men about the log and the speck because women already do it so well? Women can carry guilt? Women quickly ask, “Where have I failed?” That must be before they “correct” themselves and realize they should be asking, “What man is responsible?”

    WOW! Did he really spew that nonsense? What planet is this assclown living on? FotF really has gone completely off the rails!

  107. feeriker says:

    From the article linked by Amirantes:

    Days turn into weeks, weeks into months and months into years and, before you know it, you’ve gone a very long time without sex,’ says Susan. ‘It makes me feel so sad and lonely when I realise how long it’s been since I made love with a man, so I try not to think about it. I always enjoyed sex and found it exhilarating, and I miss that physical closeness. You don’t get it with any other human contact.’

    I have to believe that London, like every other city in the English-speaking world, has no shortage of thirsty, horny men who would eagerly “hit that” without needing to be asked twice. If it’s just sex that Susan wants, it’s there for the taking anytime she wants it. The fact that she apprarently can’t get it leads me to believe that either 1) she’s set her standards unrealistically high and above her own SMV and won’t even consider any man who isn’t a millionaire handyman Brad Pitt look-alike, 2) she has the personality of a rabid wolverine that makes any man who encounters her want to run as far from her as possible, 3) she’s a clingy, possessive, desperate drama queen who causes any man who meets her to run in the opposite direction, or 4) she’s nowhere near as desperate for sex as she sounds.

    I’m voting for #4. Any woman who really wants to get laid is going to get laid, and with minimal or no effort. Even #s 1-3 aren’t obstacles to a woman getting sex without strings attached.

    According to recent statistics, 28 per cent of women over 40, like Susan, now lead celibate lives.

    Ultimately it’s because they want to.

  108. BradA says:

    The fake line that article presents of “committed sex” and “casual sex” is the false foundation of it all. Long term marriage sex is the only committed kind. Picking right the first time is vitally important with that, though even other marriages can work, though it gets harder over time. (Or is it just that people who marry many times have a harder time fulfilling what is needed for a solid marriage?)

    I note that it elevates sex to the ultimate and focuses on meeting her needs, not his or anyone else’s. That is another serious flaw and will doom them to a life that falls short of what it could be.

    This touches on the “happy wife” meme we have been talking about in another thread. These ladies are never likely to be happy because they are not focusing on the core source of their unhappiness, themselves.

  109. thedeti says:

    There’s an interesting line of articles making the rounds lately. It’s discussed in Dalrock’s piece on “I have always depended on the sexual kindness of strangers.”. The thought process goes something like this:

    Hookup sex and casual sex are great. Women want casual sex with hot men, just like men want casual sex with attractive women. But something’s wrong, because women aren’t getting orgasms. Women are finding casual sex deeply unsatisfying, largely because they don’t orgasm. That means the attractive men are doing it wrong. These men need to care more about their hookup partners. They need to care more about their hookup partners’ orgasms. If they would take the time to make sure that it’s all equal, that the women have their orgasms just like the men are getting theirs, then all will be well. All will be ‘fair’. The women having casual sex and hookups will then be satisfied, because they are getting their orgasms just like the attractive men are.”

    But Dalrock put it best, I think. These women think their bodies and minds should work like those of men. But they don’t. What these women really desire most is to be desired and possessed by high value, attractive men, even if only briefly.

  110. “It is not about finding hotter/younger. It is about leaving a disgruntled wife that is not longer prepared”

    It is absolutely about you having the ability to leave your wife for a hotter/younger model. Watch how fast her bitching turns into sweetness and light when she realizes that you have options. Watch how fast the juices fire up and the panty stains form when she sees you flirting with another girl and she flicks her hair and touches your arm.

    You are forgetting AWALT.

    @70%: “a divorce would wreck everything. So I thought that meant that in her mind that divorce was “off the table” so to speak but I’m not convinced. Like you’ve all suggested, how could I trust her?”

    You can’t trust her. You can trust yourself. Divorce may be the word that is never spoken aloud but it is never off the table in marriage 2.0 or else it is /r/Deadbedrooms for the lot of you. The way to satisfy a woman’s hypergamy is to show her that you have better options than her. If you don’t, her hypergamy will not be satisfied and you will show that while “Happy Wife/Happy Life” may not be true, but well screwed wife/Happy life most definitely is true.

  111. Pingback: All men’s fault | Dalrock

  112. David says:

    @SeventyPercent: I completely relate to the seismic effects of your wife’s divorce threat. Others have given you great advice. I have only one additional suggestion: Have her review the primary posts on wives respecting their husbands at Peacefulwife.com. It’s great that she increased the frequency of sex — you’re way ahead of where I ever got after my now ex-wife’s first divorce threat. That change may be solid evidence of a genuine change of heart, and I certainly believe that her heart can change with ongoing submission to God. Reading, agreeing with, and implementing the advice at Peacefulwife.com would be another significant evidence of the real status of her heart. If she recoils from the content there, red flag — she still has work to do.

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  115. Jessica says:

    This could have been me. That poor husband could easily have been my husband. I am so very grateful that I had a deeply religious upbringing AND came across the manosphere in time. Now trying to be the best wife I can be.

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