Punishing with her presence

Better to dwell in a corner of a housetop,
Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.

—  Proverbs 21:9 NKJV

In the Focus on the Family radio program I referenced the other day, Dr. Clarke explains that the wives he is talking about are just like the contentious woman described in the proverb above:

All the resentments make a woman who’s cold, who’s mean, who’s sarcastic, who will pay you back. (Laughing) Oh, it’s terr … and she doesn’t want to; she’s just going to.

I have no doubt these women are every bit as unpleasant to be around as Clarke says they are.  What is ironic however is that all three of the women offered as examples complained that their husbands didn’t want to spend time with them*:

Woman #1: My husband, Ben is into everything. He has a ball game or a meeting nearly every single night of the week. And then if he’s home, he’s on the phone talking over strategies for the next game or meeting. It … it’s like he has time for everyone except for me.

Woman #2: If friends were enough, I wouldn’t have gotten married. I want my husband. I want him to be with me, to share my life on a daily basis.

Woman #3: I was in the grocery store checkout line and the man in front of me, all he did was just glance back and smile. He looked so kind. I don’t know what happened, but when I got back to my car, I burst into tears. I guess I finally had to admit how lonely I felt.

What we see here is a surprisingly common pattern for wives;  they go out of their way to be unpleasant to their husbands and then complain that their husbands don’t want to spend time with them.  This mode of thinking makes perfect sense to the women involved, but is truly puzzling to men.

I’ve written in the past about a time in our marriage roughly 20 years ago where my wife would at times go out of her way to make me not want to be around.  When she did this I’d go hunting or fishing, or do something else rather than choose to stick around and be treated that way.  She would go from desperately wanting to drive me away to feeling terribly alone after having done so.  To my wife’s great credit she eventually figured out how to stop doing what she was doing.  The most difficult part for her was whenever she talked to other women about this impulse she was feeling they acted like she was crazy. All of them denied ever having experienced or even hearing about this impulse, even though in some cases she had watched them do the exact same thing.  Eventually she figured out that if she just resisted the immediate urge and focused on something else for a while, the impulse would quickly go away.

Recently we were talking about this and she reminded me of the term I used at the time for how she was acting:

Punishing me with her presence.

Despite near universal denial this impulse is extremely common.  When women complain to my wife that their husbands never want to spend time with them she gently asks them if when they are around their husband they are pleasant and nice to be around.  The response she receives varies from viewing my wife as a traitor to women, to shock that they had never considered this themselves.

 

*Clarke attributes their loneliness to a lack of feeling “emotional intimacy” towards their husbands (what I would call romantic love/sexual attraction).  I don’t think he is wrong in this basic assessment, but I also don’t think this contradicts the fact that the women are also very unhappy that their husbands don’t want to be around them (they are separate things, and both are true).  More importantly Clarke’s advice is not only in direct contradiction to the Bible, but on a practical level teaching these women to nag their husbands harder will make the physical separation worse, and his advice to husbands to fawn and grovel is going to further frustrate the wives.

This entry was posted in Dr. David Clarke, Focus on the Family, Marriage, Rebellion, Romantic Love, Submission, Turning a blind eye. Bookmark the permalink.

110 Responses to Punishing with her presence

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  3. I didn’t want to believe that the mainstream Christian community was completely off track regarding marriage. Surely, the elders of most Churches would support Ephesians 5:22-33 if questioned. But Clarke’s advice is so contrary to plain reading of Scripture. Beyond that, it’s insulting to men. And Focus on the Family is completely mainstream.

    I recently discovered Pastor Chris Rosebrough at Fighting for the Faith.com. My eyes are being opened as to how false teachers (mysticism, prosperity gospel, dream destinies, etc) are corrupting mainstream churches. Do you suppose this is part and parcel of the feminization of the church?

    Oh, and off subject have you guys seen this gem yet: http://jezebel.com/how-can-we-make-casual-sex-better-for-women-1736110076?utm_campaign=socialfow_jezebel_twitter&utm_source=jezebel_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

    Lin

  4. I wonder if that proverb was truly written for men or for women.

  5. Dash Riprock says:

    Fascinating. What a thing to uncover and bring out in the open though. How dark is the soul when not properly tended to by its owner. The solution for women is obvious and if it was any other relationship other than a Christian wife complaining about her Christian husband even a Christian Counselor, given sufficient time could puzzle it out. here let’s us give it a try
    Your middle schooler says, “those kids don’t want to be my friend”. You, a Parent with a half a brain responds “have you tried being a friend?”
    Your teenage daughter says “none of those girls at work will talk to me”. You still with your wits about you somehow responds “have you tried talking to them about things they are interested in?”
    You get the picture. In every case you put onus to act back squarely on the complainer. Because ultimately the only behavior they can control is their own. And if they change their behavior, they will very likely get a different response. It’s simple.
    Until of course it comes to Christian couples, where if the wife seeks to change the husband’s behavior she is counseled here to nag and failing that get him to the pastor, or heaven help us, to the Christian counselor who can then nag him in a professional way. But she doesn’t have to change her behavior and nobody better go suggesting that no sirree! That would be chauvinistic or insensitive. Or effective even.

  6. wordsofgold says:

    “Let the wife make the husband glad to come home, and let him make her sorry to see him leave.”
    Martin Luther

  7. sonofdeathswriter says:

    “What we see here is a surprisingly common pattern for wives; they go out of their way to be unpleasant to their husbands and then complain that their husbands don’t want to spend time with them. This mode of thinking makes perfect sense to the women involved, but is truly puzzling to men.”

    Damn right

  8. rugby11ljh says:

    “Punishing me with her presence.”

    Familiar

  9. sonofdeathswriter says:

    Wives don’t understand nagging drives us away from them. Society tells them they can do what they want, whenever they want with no consequences for their actions. In reality this is not true. If they are unpleasant to be around their husband, or people in general, won’t hang around them.

  10. Anonymous Reader says:

    What we see here is a surprisingly common pattern for wives; they go out of their way to be unpleasant to their husbands and then complain that their husbands don’t want to spend time with them. This mode of thinking makes perfect sense to the women involved, but is truly puzzling to modern men.

    Fixed that for you. It wouldn’t have been all that puzzling to men of 60 or more years ago.
    What would puzzle those men is the absurd, fawning response that men today have to such unpleasantness. Because the simple truths about women didn’t used to be so hidden away.

    Fortunately we live in a time when intensive research into female psychology has been done in the streets, bars, bedrooms and living rooms of the world, and terms such as “fitness test” or the more earthy and rude “shit test” are becoming more common. I haven’t heard any under-30 man use that term yet, but perhaps they don’t want to say it around my delicate ears, lest I be offended by reality.

    A more gentle way to put this would be: she doesn’t want to drive him away, she wants to drive a certain aspect of him away. The Churchian response, of course, is to teach men to double down on those aspects that are most unattractive to women, because Churchians believe what women say and ignore what women do. That is because Churchians are feminists, in service to the Female Imperative. Conservative feminists, to be sure, they oppose abortion for example, but feminists nevertheless. The upshot is to Betaize men, which makes them better providers but distinctly unattractive as men.

    There’s a larger current here regarding open hypergamy and the push towards AF-BB as a normalized mating pattern for churchgoing women that I won’t drag into this thread. Rollo might, though.

    Anyway, as I’ve noted many times, either we are pushing actively against feminism or we are passively accepting it. Plenty of churches pasively accept it, some actively embrace it. Here’s a fun idea: next time some church going woman says the word “Sexist”, ask her where to find that word in the Bible. Be amused by the expressions that likely will cross her face. Be prepared for some seriously mangled and tortured Bible quotes as an outside possibility.

    I wonder if that proverb was truly written for men or for women.

    Yes. Obviously.

    It’s one of the Bible quotes that Anonymous Age 60-something would post from time to time, there are several others in Proverbs that hand out raw truth about women. Interestingly not one church going man I have interacted with face to face has ever heard of any of them. Not. One. Including a couple of church leaders.

  11. theasdgamer says:

    Dal:
    attributes their loneliness to a lack of feeling “emotional intimacy” towards their husbands (what I would call romantic love/sexual attraction). I don’t think he is wrong in this basic assessment, but I also don’t think this contradicts the fact that the women are also very unhappy that their husbands don’t want to be around them (they are separate things, and both are true).

    Woman’s cray-cray => man’s avoidant behavior => loss of emotional intimacy

  12. Never take a woman fishing.

    That’s a little idiom I learned way before I was Red Pill aware from the guy who was my best man at my wedding, and my fishing buddy. I wouldn’t call him a philosopher, but he was a keen observer of women’s behavior and became wise by default.

    “When you take a woman fishing you’re trying to include them in something they really don’t want to be doing, but you enjoy a lot. So you think ‘I like fishing and I want to include her in something we can do together’, but when you do she complains about EVERYTHING. ‘It’s dirty, I’m cold, I’m hot, I didn’t bring a water bottle, where’s the sunscreen?, there’s too many bugs, why are there so many bugs?, why do we have to hike so far to fish? can’t we just find a spot by the dam? where’s the bathroom?, etc. etc.”

    “So what do you do? You force yourself to make her comfortable the whole damn time. You don’t hike, you don’t scout for the sweet spots on the river or, God forbid, you try to get her in a kayak. You end up going out after breakfast and the light’s all wrong. You try to keep them clean and close to the ‘potty’, you bait their hook ’cause it’s filthy, you untangle their reel snarls,…what you don’t do is fish. Your whole trip becomes about making her ‘like’ fishing with you and not about actually fishing and doing all the things we do when we fish together or on our own. I mean, you want ’em to like it, but you’ll never teach them to like it because you’re too busy making everything right for ’em.”

    “Unless they were brought up right and they dig fishing ’cause their Dad taught ’em to like it, never try to bring a woman fishing. They gotta come to liking it on their own, they gotta want to do it on their own. I mean, look at Dodge (our dog) he don’t care if it’s cold or 4am, he’s happy to be on the trail going wherever the fuck we’re headed.”

  13. >The most difficult part for her was whenever she talked to other women about this impulse she was feeling they acted like she was crazy. All of them denied ever having experienced or even hearing about this impulse, even though in some cases she had watched them do the exact same thing. Eventually she figured out that if she just resisted the immediate urge and focused on something else for a while, the impulse would quickly go away.

    Thank you for this Dalrock! This explains your (and my!) happy marriages because of wives who are able to identify the impulse to act like a fitness testing evil sex denying harpy. Fewer than 1 in 20 women have this inclination or even I daresay the ability to do this.

    How can we increase awareness of women’s ability to control the Shit Testing vicious bitch impulse? What is the solution and the endgame?

    >they go out of their way to be unpleasant to their husbands and then complain that their husbands don’t want to spend time with them. This mode of thinking makes perfect sense to the women involved, but is truly puzzling to men.

    Now how does any of this make sense? They act like a bitch. Tease us then deny then revel in the feeling of their power to deny and torment. They belittle our needs. Then they complain when we have better things to do than spend time with them? If I was looking for a precise example of nonsensical this would be it.

  14. BradA says:
    I wonder if that proverb was truly written for men or for women.

    Yes.

    I was listening to a well known evangelistic speaker (show) last night and he did cover both men and women not living up to their part in marriage, but he used "not loving enough" for both sides, which is a miss focus since men respect, not love. I stopped listening after that even though I often like to have some kind of preaching going on while I do things.

    ====

    My wife fits the model you note Dalrock, but she would not spend 10 seconds learning how to play Destiny, for example. The same would be true of fishing or other things, if I was drawn into those.

    Women want men to do what they already like to do, they normally do not want to change to be doing what the man likes. Exceptions for this can be sports, but that is becoming quite feminized in many ways (pink in the NFL as an example), so it seems different.

  15. Joe says:

    There’s no point in bothering with them. They can’t be pleased.

  16. rdchemist says:

    @bluepillprofessor
    “How can we increase awareness of women’s ability to control the Shit Testing vicious bitch impulse? What is the solution and the endgame?”

    The endgame as I see it is that men and women will stop dealing (and mating) with each other which would cause a fairly dramatic demographic shift in favor of people who are generally pleasant to be around and will instill those values in their children. The harpies end up dying off alone.

    This post describes a lot of social phenomenon, not just American marriages. American men, are simply going Gault in American society for a lot of different reasons.

  17. stickdude90 says:

    Never take a woman fishing.

    Sounds like a great title for your next book, Rollo.

  18. greyghost says:

    Mine and I know of 3 other guys who have wives described here. Women now days are raised to be that way. There is no where in society where that is not encouraged.

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    bluepillprofessor
    Now how does any of this make sense?

    It makes perfect sense to those with a taste for fried ice.

    Fried. Ice.

    Here’s another one Anonymous Age 60-something used to post:
    Proverbs 27:15 A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.

    So choose one: a thunderstorm that will pass, or the drip-drip-drip-drip-drip-drip that never ends (until you go up and camp out on the roof). The churchian feminists insist there’s a third choice, appeasement. They are wrong, that just turns into a mix of thunderstorms and drip-drip-drippping.

  20. Neguy says:

    OT: Here’s another one for you Dalrock. The hamster is strong with this one:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2015/october/god-loves-my-fat-body-as-it-is.html?paging=off

    How long before churches start actively shaming men into not judging a woman’s attractiveness by her weight? It’s probably already happening out there somewhere.

  21. The Question says:

    “What we see here is a surprisingly common pattern for wives; they go out of their way to be unpleasant to their husbands and then complain that their husbands don’t want to spend time with them. This mode of thinking makes perfect sense to the women involved, but is truly puzzling to men.”

    I almost wonder if this is natural, or a symptom of feminism due to how women are taught they must be perpetually discontent with their circumstances, lest they submit to the “patriarchy.” Whatever their lot is, it can’t be good enough because they’ve been trained to think that being content will leave them vulnerable or its a sign of a “weak woman.” It’s as though being unpleasant allows them to maintain the position of authority or control. It may be especially hard to avoid if they know being unpleasant yields positive results in terms of getting people, particularly men, to placate them.

    This would explain the reaction your wife gets when she’s seen as a “traitor.”

    Just some casual observations.

  22. desiderian says:

    “fitness testing evil sex denying harpy”

    Fitness testing is the opposite of sex denying.

    Women don’t fitness test men with whom they do not want sex.

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  24. javaloco says:

    @neguy – “How long before churches start actively shaming men into not judging a woman’s attractiveness by her weight?”

    Already happening. The only acceptable way to address excess weight is for health reasons.

    I also remember a story on a Christian msg brd where a woman recounted the story of her son who was disparaged by a female youth leader for declaring he wouldn’t get in a relationship with an overweight girl.

  25. Dr. Clarke is gerrymandering his reading of the proverbs. If he were a little more unabridged in his approach he would realize that the proverbs say that a man cannot change the woman or even make her stop. It is like trying to hold the wind in your hand, it is a fool’s errand. (see below) He has not understood the meaning of the proverb at all he is just putting more gas on the fire of christo-feminsit rebellion. The wife alone is responsible for her sins of contention, insubordination, and sexual defrauding. The unceasing attempt of the modern christian to make husbands the root cause of female sin is a deterrent to repentance, the gelding of masculinity and a significant contribution to the destruction of Biblical marriage.

    Proverbs 27:15-16 A continual dripping on a very rainy day And a contentious woman are alike; Whoever restrains her restrains the wind, And grasps oil with his right hand…

  26. Anonymous Reader says:

    Question
    I almost wonder if this is natural, or a symptom of feminism due to how women are taught they must be perpetually discontent with their circumstances, lest they submit to the “patriarchy.”

    Yes. Yes, it is.

  27. greyghost says:

    The unceasing attempt of the modern christian to make husbands the root cause of female sin is a deterrent to repentance, the gelding of masculinity and a significant contribution to the destruction of Biblical marriage.

    Yes it is. We get the same effect by telling women to behave for there own good. Far better to let women know men will be taught how to treat women with bad behavior as sluts for sex or with indifference. Know the nature of women.

  28. DrTorch says:

    The hamster is strong with this one:

    LOL, that was hilarious. Very funny how every paragraph was “I…I…I” with no rationality to be found.

    But the real punch line was at the end, where she “parodied” all of the fat stereotypes, including being an aunt. Yeah, she got us b/c the line at her door is long.

  29. DrTorch says:

    The unceasing attempt of the modern Christian to make husbands the root cause of female sin is a deterrent to repentance, the gelding of masculinity and a significant contribution to the destruction of Biblical marriage.

    Well said, and very important. And it’s not just marriage…refusing to repent is the antithesis of Biblical salvation. It’s truly an issue of heaven and hell.

  30. Urban II says:

    My wife tells a similar tale to yours Dalrock, albeit not with the same depth of understanding (yet). She generally recognizes that she sometimes behaves in a repellant fashion when I call her on it. She admits she doesn’t want the result (me avoiding/ignoring her) and has asked me to continue to call her on it when she does it.

    She doesn’t know why she does it, or claims not to. I believe her, as I don’t think she can understand what’s driving it.

  31. enrique says:

    I’ve always thought that for many divorced women (mine included), they only want a man around when he fulfilling her every beta AND alpha need, and then/whenever he doesn’t, unlike days of old, where she (and/or her children) might starve, she can simply divorce for cash and prizes.

    “I don’t need no man” is somewhat of a reflection of that particularly Western female narcissism. Indeed you don’t. You drive them away, the complain about them, then divorce them, then complain about them in their absence…they claim you never needed them. Completely oblivious to self-reflection. Getting the children, Child Support , Alimony and other state-mandated benefits remarkably, doesn’t draw women any closer to self-critical analysis. Hand fulls of thirsty betas waiting in the wings doesn’t help.

  32. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    A Washington Post news story on women Marines:

    Women in a new Marine Corps unit created to assess how female service members perform in combat were injured twice as often as men, less accurate with infantry weapons and not as good at removing wounded troops from the battlefield, according to the results of a long-awaited study produced by the service. ….

    The Marine Corps’ research will serve as fodder for those who are against fully integrating women. It found that all-male squads, teams and crews demonstrated better performance on 93 of 134 tasks evaluated (69 percent) than units with women in them. Units comprising all men also were faster than units with women while completing tactical movements in combat situations, especially in units with large “crew-served” weapons like heavy machine guns and mortars, the study found.

    Infantry squads comprising men only also had better accuracy than squads with women in them, with “a notable difference between genders for every individual weapons system” used by infantry rifleman units. They include the M4 carbine, the M27 infantry automatic rifle (IAR) and the M203, a single-shot grenade launcher mounted to rifles, the study found.

    The research also found that male Marines who have not received infantry training were still more accurate using firearms than women who have. And in removing wounded troops from the battlefield, there “were notable differences in execution times between all-male and gender-integrated groups,” with the exception being when a single person—”most often a male Marine” — carried someone away, the study found.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/10/marine-experiment-finds-women-get-injured-more-frequently-shoot-less-accurately-than-men/

  33. CHero says:

    Holy salchoe, I can’t figure out for the LIFE of me, I can’t figure out how this isn’t plain common sense. If you act crappy, no one wants to be around you.

  34. Mine was a chubby (obese) nag. “Get rid of the motorcycle, the guns, the friends, the fishing, stay home”, etc., etc. A year after our daughter, she’s 95 lbs heavier than at delivery time. Sloppy hygiene/bathing habits. She knew I was off put and angry about it. Nagged when I wasn’t interested in sex (THIS was NOT what I married) and was so unpleasant to be around, I ducked any time together and “fell asleep” on the couch many, many times overnight. Eventually, she wasn’t haaaapy and we divorced. Looking back, I should have instructed her to go to the bedroom, take off her clothes, look at herself in the mirror, take a sniff of various unwashed body parts and then ask herself why she thinks anyone would want that? But I didn’t.

    Yeah, she was too many Oreos over the line, but maybe it’s time guys speak up, when she’s bitchy, tell her, in fact, punish her by grabbing the keys and GOING. When she’s fat, tell her. Women are perfectly happy to find faults in their men and there aren’t any that haven’t plenty of faults of their own.

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  36. Solomon says:

    The disconnect is remarkable, women who can’t see that they drive the man away or create the distance

    But I think they avoid the accountability of being pleasant to be around because this is an unthinkable element because their hamster has justified their unpleasantness and poor behavior, so the solution must lie with the man, because she is justified in being how she is, and indeed, it’s the man’s fault.

    Nevertheless, the accountability must remain. Want a friend? Be frtiendly. Want respect? Be respectable. Want admiration? Be admirable.

    Anyone with this disconnect is due for a rebuke or two, I reckon.

  37. Solomon says:

    woman: I don’t know why I get like that

    RP man: because you are undisciplined and unwise.

  38. Oscar says:

    @ swiftfoxmark2 says:
    October 16, 2015 at 10:06 am

    “I wonder if that proverb was truly written for men or for women.”

    The Book of Proverbs was written TO a young man BY his father. We know that because chapter 1 tells us the purpose of the book and to whom it’s written.

    Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
    2 To know wisdom and instruction,
    To discern the sayings of understanding,
    3 To receive instruction in wise behavior,
    Righteousness, justice and equity;
    4 To give prudence to the [a]naive,
    To the youth knowledge and discretion,
    5 A wise man will hear and increase in learning,
    And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,
    6 To understand a proverb and a figure,
    The words of the wise and their riddles.
    7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
    Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    8 Hear, my son, your father’s instruction
    And do not forsake your mother’s teaching;
    9 Indeed, they are a graceful wreath to your head
    And [b]ornaments about your neck.
    10 My son, if sinners entice you,
    Do not consent.

    Later proverbs are written by others, but still written TO young men in particular. Even Proverbs 31, which today we hear mostly preached TO women, is actually written TO a young man BY his mother.

    Proverbs 31:1 The words of King Lemuel, the [a]oracle which his mother taught him:
    2 What, O my son?
    And what, O son of my womb?
    And what, O son of my vows?

    Obviously, women can – and should – learn a lot from Proverbs, but we should always keep in mind that they were written TO men – specifically young men.

  39. Dalrock

    Despite near universal denial this impulse is extremely common. When women complain to my wife that their husbands never want to spend time with them she gently asks them if when they are around their husband they are pleasant and nice to be around. The response she receives varies from viewing my wife as a traitor to women, to shock that they had never considered this themselves.

    Your wife IS being a traitor. But she is not being a traitor to women. She is being a traitor to feminism. The women who believe your wife has betrayed them, they are feminists first and foremost, right up to believing that it simply is IMPOSSIBLE for a woman NOT to be a feminist first. Everything else comes second. They have gone full feral.

  40. Spike says:

    This post reminds me of a Bible study i attended when my wife and I were newlyweds (against my better judgement: I have low cringe tolerance!)
    When the pastor asked the group what “love” meant, almost universally the young married women in the group gave the response that they could drop the pretences of politeness, that love meant “you didn’t have to say “please” and “thank you” to someone at last” !
    My wife and I were both appalled. I spoke first and said, “So you are saying that you will be polite to strangers with whom you aren’t intimate, but rude to someone you are intimate with?”
    My wife added, “Should you not be just as, if not more polite about someone you care about?”

    It seemed like a novel concept to the lot of them!

    “Punishing with her presence” is something all husbands have gone through and identify with, Dalrock. Thanks for the realism and honesty. Appreciated.

  41. gargoylevrigin01 says:

    To add to the discussion of overweight/obese women, it amazes me how so many of them act like they are hot stuff. In college, during my second year of my master’s degree, there was this obese women, who was only checking me out to see if I had money. (Her skinnier and younger room mate was also doing the same thing.) Anyway, they would both go to night clubs with hot guys from the dorm and their friends at least a few times during each week.

    During the beginning of the semester, I was randomly chosen to dorm with those guys. They would hold parties at least twice a night during the week in the dorm suite, inviting other men and women over, including the two women mentioned above. Although their parties were loud and intolerable, I moved to a different suite in the dorm mostly because of the mind games those two women were playing mind games/shit tests with me When I tried sleeping during the partying, those two women would wake me up, pretending to be interested in me, pretending to want to give me a lap dance. I tried to ignore them. When I sort of began hitting back on them, they suddenly turned around and were not interested in me. They would hint strongly at me that they wanted me to take them out to dinner or something involving money.

    In fact, the skinnier woman said to one of my first suite mates while I was in the same room: “Yo, How much money do you think (blank) makes?” (The blank is me). They respond with, “Why don’t you ask him yourself?” I also remember the skinnier woman tries to get sympathy out of me. She says that gives money to the guys she has fun with. She was trying to get money out of me. It is as if she believes it is the beta man’s job to give her a harvest of money for any amount she sewed into the hot alpha men.

    I learned from someone else that the fat woman is about 10 years older than me, and yet, she only wanted to use me for money while still having fun with hot alphas at night clubs. She was in her late 30s. She was not interested in giving me a lap dance at all at the suite’s party, but she sure liked giving a lap dance to the alpha men at the party.

    I remember I asked the skinnier woman if she wanted to dance with me at one of the parties. She said okay. I tried holding her and she said in a disgusted voice, “You don’t have to hold me.”

    In fact, these two women would whisper stuff to me that they, or at least one of them, were godmothers. They were just trying to get sympathy and money out of me.

    The skinnier woman tried to get me with her obese roommate. She said to me, “How would you like to date (blank)?” I said “I was not sure. I don’t know her at all.”

    Hmmm. I wonder if I did agree to date the obese roommate? How many dates, dinners, outings of money, and just giving her money and resources, etc. would it take to get any sexual action out of her? I bet she would accuse me of being a pervert, manipulative, accuse me of just giving her money to just get sex out of her, claim she was not ready to take the relationship to the next step, etc. of just trying to hold her hand. She would probably cheat on me with a hot alpha guy. Yep, alpha f*** beta bucks.

    I knew that none of the women wanted me since I was sexually unattractive. I just hit on them lightly to confirm what I already strongly suspected.

    When it was announced that I was moving to another suite, the two women were disappointed that I was leaving. I guess they lost a potential beta provider.
    I gave one final test. I visited the suite during one of their party nights. I tried to dance with any of the women at the party. Nobody wanted to. The skinnier woman suggested that I dance with one of the men there, and called out one of the males names.
    I stood there in silence and shock in one of the rooms for 2 minutes while everybody else was partying in the other room.. I stormed out of that suite and never revisited again..
    Good riddance.

  42. Oscar says:

    “What we see here is a surprisingly common pattern for wives; they go out of their way to be unpleasant to their husbands and then complain that their husbands don’t want to spend time with them.”

    As I mentioned before, when I first heard this broadcast, I found myself yelling at the radio. One factor that angered me is that it never occurred to either the guest or the host that maybe the wives were doing something to drive their husbands away.

    Again, the model for “Christian” marriage counseling proves to be:

    1. Nothing is the wife’s fault, unless…
    1a. the wife is not nagging her husband enough, in which case see #2.
    1b. the wife is submitting to her husband too much (i.e. “being a doormat”), in which case see #2.
    2. Everything is the husband’s fault.
    3. The solution to every problem is for the husband to behave more like a woman.

  43. @ Oscar

    I think divorce in the church could be nearly eliminated and peace in the home maintained with one little practice, if the church encouraged it and supported it without reservation. That practice is empowering and encouraging a husband to spank his wife when she is disrespectful, irritable, insubordinate or withholding sex or sammiches.

    Yes, I know it is not in the Bible, and it could lead to abuse in a very minuscule fraction of a percent of cases. But, women would be happier to under a strong leader that they could not push a round with their manipulations and nagging and the Biblical order for the household would be enforced with some teeth. Husbands would be encouraged to only do the McLintock out of love for the wife, a Godly order in the home and not for selfishness. Men would be more responsible for thier wives sanctification because they would have a remedy for a contentious wife. Of course women would want to carefully vette their husband before the wedding to make sure he is one they would submit to even when a little discipline was applied.

    Alas, I cannot find the practice in the Bible, but it would solve many issues. But then I can’t find most of the counseling practices of the church in the Bible either.

  44. Oscar says:

    @ Neguy says:
    October 16, 2015 at 12:59 pm

    Good find. Check this out.

    “Rather than looking to weight or size alone, many in the fat acceptance movement focus on other health indicators, such as cholesterol, blood sugar levels, energy, or endurance. While people may address such concerns by increasing activity, changing their diet, or trying medication—and may lose weight as a result…”

    Holy freaking crap! You mean “increasing activity, changing their diet” can lead fat people to “lose weight as a result”? No freaking way!

    It’s hilarious how she spends the entire article blaming God for her obesity, then she destroys her own argument with the statement I quoted above.

    Here’s a great comment someone calling himself (obviously) “I Art Laughing” left on her article:

    “I guess the answer to alcoholism is to stop fighting it. Just accept that we want to get black out drunk every day and tell people to stop shaming us for it. 12 step programs and calls to overcome the world are just so shaming and counterproductive. The Church should just be more accepting.

    Seek righteousness? How on Earth are we to do that without “shaming” the gluttonous, the drunken, the adulterous and the murderer? If everyone is okay just the way they are then what is left to seek? What’s more, I don’t judge the fat girl for being fat, I judge her for an attitude that she is somehow without sin and that we should all just pretend for her sake that 2+2=5. It’s silly, her sin proceeds her and we are told to pretend that there is no sin at all. What a farce.”

    I know Matt Walsh gets little respect around here, but the comment above reminds me of an editorial he wrote at the Blaze titled “No, Christianity Should Not ‘Welcome’ or ‘Include’ Your Sinful Lifestyle”. He wrote it in response to a gay reader who claims the Church needs to be more “welcoming” and “inclusive” toward LGBT people.

    “It’s difficult to have grown-up conversations these days, because people like yourself see every mention of moral truth as either a personal attack or a statement of superiority. This is the real damage you cause in the Faith. It’s not that you’re sinful — we all are, to be sure — it’s that you want to be coddled. You want to shut down professions of Truth that are inconvenient or uncomfortable. You want to modify Christian teachings not because you tried them and found them wrong, but because, to paraphrase Chesterton, you found them difficult and don’t want to try them.”

    Different sin, same principle.

  45. Oscar says:

    @ Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    I think all that’s necessary is for pastors, Christian marriage “experts” like Dr. Clarke, and “Conservative” “Christian” organizations like Focus on the Family and Family Life Today to stop undermining husbands’ God-given authority, and start preaching the Scriptures instead.

  46. Thanks Oscar, I’m such a troll….I preferred this one:

    I’ve been drinking a fifth of vodka a day for years. I used to worry that it would hurt my testimony but now I’ve found a group that is “drunk” accepting (we’re reclaiming the word). Instead of focusing on liver function we like to discuss how drinking has a positive affect on our triglycerides and cholesterol. Instead of focusing on my jaundiced skin, colostomy bag, constant vomiting, and delirium tremens I would like to see people focus on OVER drinking (which I clearly don’t do). I wish people would just stop being so judgmental!

    Also, if you don’t drink alcohol you wouldn’t understand, if you do then you have no room to talk.

  47. The SJW’s are the “church”. They have a gospel of acceptance. The justice they are seeking is not through Christ it is through human initiative. They want to fix the world to their liking, weaponizing their causes for social change. Funny thing is none of them are willing to sacrifice of themselves, bear their own crosses and truly suffer. This is telling:

    And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    (Rev 12:10-11)

    None of them are the least wise willing to lay down their forks, let alone their lives.

  48. MNL says:

    To make this real plain and simple, this “Punishing me with her presence” thing is just one grand shit test. Married women do this sort of thing all the time to test their man’s relationship endurance.

    Sad that it’s so often a destructive test. The man whose behavior doesn’t pass, gets woven into a justification narrative for frivorce–all of the woman’s own making.

  49. Oscar says:

    @ GiL

    I wondered if that was you.

  50. Regarding the fat-acceptance Churchianity woman, and substituting “alcoholic acceptance” for fat acceptance:

    As an alcoholic, I’m terrified by this.

    Mainly because obesity and alcoholism are so profoundly related. Example: My “alcohol” is whiskey, while my mother-in-law’s “alcohol” was high-carb cake treats. We both did it for the same reasons. Both are symptoms of similar diseases.

    For now, alcoholism is one of the few diseases that society is actually getting smarter about—we correctly identify it as a disease and treat those who suffer (rather than shame/ostracize). I would love for obesity to receive the same evolution of thought that alcoholism is receiving.

    It’s terrifying to think that alcoholism and obesity could be co-opted by SJWs into something to be accepted. It’s a disease—let’s treat it, not ignore or “accept” it.

    (Alcoholism and obesity seem to have grown oddly prevalent in conservative “Christian” circles lately, especially here in the south, and especially among women. Both tend to brutalize marriages. Both obesity and alcoholism seem heavily subsidized by white knight Christian men. They must really, REALLY not get laid that much.)

  51. jonakc1 says:

    I think you need to be realistic
    the modern christian man is different
    he leads by being domestic and mastering homemaking skills
    he shows he supports women by caring for the kids so his wife can work or sit on facebook

    he mocks men who critique women,and firmly believes that anything wrong in marriage is the man’s fault

    he encourages female laziness by taking on her tasks to show his live, domestic tasks that were much harder 100 years ago that women would do all themselves without whining…

    a wife nagging is seen as a sign of failed leadership – Justin Meyer- Bethlehem Baptist!

    instead of discussing work/societal issues etc with men he discusses childcare and homemaking!

    the more a man becomes like a woman
    the more Godly he is
    the more a man justifies and subsidizes female sins
    the more sacrificial and Godly he is…

    being a female is now Godly
    that is Godliness…

  52. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Jim Christian: Women are perfectly happy to find faults in their men and there aren’t any that haven’t plenty of faults of their own.

    A good time to quote Matthew 7:3-5 to the woman:

    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

  53. Adam says:

    What is so interesting is that the phrase “pleasant and nice to be around” seems vague and yet women know instinctively and exactly what it means.

    That alone tells me that the root of all this is women’s conscious rebellion against how they were created.

  54. new anon says:

    @nooneofanyimport,

    +1 for Fighting For the Faith.

    He’s not specifically red-pill, but he is such a stickler for sticking to the Bible that he inadvertently ends up being red-pill.

  55. Peter Blood says:

    Please no links to Jezebel or other Gawker sites. Writers get paid by page hits.

    Gawker constellation must be destroyed.

  56. Sean says:

    @noone

    Rosebrough is very solid and fits in well with other pro-Ephesians guys like JD Hall, James White, Gavin Peacock, etc.

    Just avoid pedestallers like Mohler: very sound theology but tends to idolize wimen.

  57. jonakc1 says:

    please
    Gavin Peacock is part of CBMW
    they believe manhood is defined by the number of domestic duties a man does and how he leads by being the first to submit..
    most christian men subsidize rebelliousness, they are such huge women worshippers that the cannot even identify a rebellious women like the men and women of proverbs could,,,

    men nowadays want to live with a rebellious woman , only a few don’t and they get squashed by being called misogynists…

  58. The Jack Russell Terrorist says:

    Here is a song from 1977 by 10cc called “Modern Man Blues”. The song is similar to the topic being discussed. The line “A man can take so much and only heaven knows his limits, but a naggin, bitchin woman digs a hole and puts him in it.” is dead on.

  59. I think the only thing that jonahck is missing are the lolzzzzzz.

  60. Sean says:

    @jonakc

    Yes, first to submit to God. Perhaps read his twitter feed to see what he has to say. The heathen rage.

  61. jonakc1 says:

    anyone can use the right words and tweet the right things…
    have read his twitter feed…

    but then they go on to be part of an organisation that spends more time teaching men household duties and how to submit to their wife
    instead of teaching that to women?
    an organisation that is fine with cross dressing daughters
    and endorses women who have husbands who works full time and then come home to do all their duties because they are too lazy…

    please
    modern christian men want to be feminised and trampled on
    as the feel more Godly the more womanly they are
    as this is what they have been taught from small….

  62. Sean says:

    @jonakc

    Surely you can cite the article or paper submitted by CBMW that shows any of that, right?

  63. Sean says:

    Feel more Godly by being trampled? Perhaps you need to find a better church with actual Christian men in it.

    Oh, and Christian has a capital C.

  64. jonakc1 says:

    http://cbmw.org/topics/leadership-2/a-discussion-on-the-meaning-of-submission-from-ephesians-5/
    and just read any of their men and marriage articles, always telling men to be more domestic- aka choreplay
    Gavin Peacock wrote articles for this website as well
    here the man can’t imagine his wife washing dishes!!
    http://9marks.org/article/complementarianism-the-single-man/
    cause you know, there are no more any male and female duties etc…

    this from one of the CBMW bloggers
    http://fromthejensens.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/what-im-getting-for-valentines-day.html
    boasting on how she relaxes and does nothing when her husband is at home….

    http://cbmw.org/topics/children/parenting-in-the-trenches-teaching-children-biblical-gender-roles-in-all-of-life/
    he supports his daughters dressing up like batman
    I wonder if he is fine with sons dressing up like cinderella?

    he thinks wives can be helicopter pilots
    – am really curious on how such a wife runs the home!! ( oh wait she gets her husband to do it- cause husbands must servant lead…)
    http://www.lifeway.com/Article/Stay-at-home-dad-primer
    this by Jared Wilson a TGC rockstar and co-author with superstar Matt Chandler…
    Acts 29 and CBMW are completely intermingled
    this is what they believe…
    sigh…

    I used to attend a CBMW / Gavin Peacock type church
    the men look after the kids to show servant leadership
    while the women sit in church to discuss theology with the male leaders… so they can be spiritually fed

    they praised a man who was a house husband in front of the whole church and called him a man other men should follow
    one of their male bible students
    runs the home and cooks the meals etc for his wife so she can work and get on with her career….
    it is hilarious
    the men are women and the women are men

    keep in mind this is a church that believes in male leadership and female submission just like CBMW
    but they twist it to fit in…

    oh and the young men firmly believed that diapering, and any duties at home were the duties of men – else the husband was not worth submitting to..
    one man who used to be a youth pastor told all the young men that diapers must be changed by men and his wife would make him change the diapers while he was leading the guys in bible study!!!
    so much for wife helping the husband

    so the men would work all day- some were builders who would work and sweat all day while their wife sat at home
    but if they came home expecting dinner and kids to be sorted
    that was sin…

    these men want to be womanly…

    I just find this hilarious

    for 1000’s of years men were told to provide , protect and lead to be a Godly husband
    now they are told to change diapers, cook dinner and care for the kids ( aka what women were told for 1000’s of years on being a Godly wife)

    interesting how you can swap Genders and ignore God’s instruction
    then the same people come down hard against gay marriage..
    que?!
    if they are allowed to change what God believes
    then so can the gays, the polygamists the adulterers etc…

    christians these days do not deserve a capital…
    but just to be correct
    Christian…

  65. http://cbmw.org/topics/leadership-2/a-discussion-on-the-meaning-of-submission-from-ephesians-5/
    and just read any of their men and marriage articles, always telling men to be more domestic- aka choreplay
    Gavin Peacock wrote articles for this website as well
    here the man can’t imagine his wife washing dishes!!
    http://9marks.org/article/complementarianism-the-single-man/
    cause you know, there are no more any male and female duties etc…

    this from one of the CBMW bloggers
    http://fromthejensens.blogspot.co.nz/2014/02/what-im-getting-for-valentines-day.html
    boasting on how she relaxes and does nothing when her husband is at home….

    http://cbmw.org/topics/children/parenting-in-the-trenches-teaching-children-biblical-gender-roles-in-all-of-life/
    he supports his daughters dressing up like batman
    I wonder if he is fine with sons dressing up like cinderella?

    he thinks wives can be helicopter pilots
    – am really curious on how such a wife runs the home!! ( oh wait she gets her husband to do it- cause husbands must servant lead…)
    http://www.lifeway.com/Article/Stay-at-home-dad-primer
    this by Jared Wilson a TGC rockstar and co-author with superstar Matt Chandler…
    Acts 29 and CBMW are completely intermingled
    this is what they believe…
    sigh…

    I used to attend a CBMW / Gavin Peacock type church
    the men look after the kids to show servant leadership
    while the women sit in church to discuss theology with the male leaders… so they can be spiritually fed

    they praised a man who was a house husband in front of the whole church and called him a man other men should follow
    one of their male bible students
    runs the home and cooks the meals etc for his wife so she can work and get on with her career….
    it is hilarious
    the men are women and the women are men

    keep in mind this is a church that believes in male leadership and female submission just like CBMW
    but they twist it to fit in…

    oh and the young men firmly believed that diapering, and any duties at home were the duties of men – else the husband was not worth submitting to..
    one man who used to be a youth pastor told all the young men that diapers must be changed by men and his wife would make him change the diapers while he was leading the guys in bible study!!!
    so much for wife helping the husband

    so the men would work all day- some were builders who would work and sweat all day while their wife sat at home
    but if they came home expecting dinner and kids to be sorted
    that was sin…

    these men want to be womanly…

    I just find this hilarious

    for 1000’s of years men were told to provide , protect and lead to be a Godly husband
    now they are told to change diapers, cook dinner and care for the kids ( aka what women were told for 1000’s of years on being a Godly wife)

    interesting how you can swap Genders and ignore God’s instruction
    then the same people come down hard against gay marriage..
    que?!
    if they are allowed to change what God believes
    then so can the gays, the polygamists the adulterers etc…

    christians these days do not deserve a capital…
    but just to be correct
    Christian…

  66. jonakc1 says:

    meh
    so I give evidence etc
    and now the comments do not get posted
    it looks like you guys are no different to churchians….

  67. jonakc1 says:

    and now
    men learning to restrain their emotions is a temptation!!
    http://cbmw.org/topics/parenting-2/cultivating-masculinity-in-a-houseful-of-cowboys/

    que?!!

  68. jonakc1 says:

    oh I guess I qualify now…
    have always wondered why manosphere blogs rarely critique TGC,CBMW,9MARKS,Acts 29 etc…

  69. Dalrock says:

    @jonakc1

    meh
    so I give evidence etc
    and now the comments do not get posted
    it looks like you guys are no different to churchians….

    oh I guess I qualify now…
    have always wondered why manosphere blogs rarely critique TGC,CBMW,9MARKS,Acts 29 etc…

    The first comment went into moderation because of the number of links. After that, you changed your handle/email combination which caused wordpress to see you as a new commenter to the blog.

    I have written a fair amount about the CBMW. You can see a list of my postings on the topic here. I don’t recall writing about Acts29 specifically, but I have written a number of posts about Mark Driscoll (here).

  70. jonakc1 says:

    oh I see
    sorry…

    the church I attended just thinks I am not christian because I questioned their inconsistent behaviour…
    I mean men are not to be measured by how domestic they are
    they are not chosen for eldership etc only if he changed more diapers than his wife or spent more time at home mastering domesticity…

    it is getting silly
    and it includes everyone Challies, Chandler etc
    not just Driscoll who is not really influential anymore

    young christian marriages are very different to christians for millennia
    the men are women and the women want to be men
    nowadays it is offensive to suggest women should run the home and husbands should expect that from their wives…

  71. jonakc1 says:

    one of the wives of the church believed that unless a man is good at running the home, cleaning, cooking etc
    he is not worth submitting too…

    where is this in the bible?

  72. jonakc1 says:

    look at Rosaria Butterfield
    ex lesbian
    now complementarian
    so all the churches loves her
    claims to support manhood and womanhood

    yet she spends more time travelling and speaking while her husband looks after the kids and runs the home…

    does no one see this inconsistency?

    your articles on CBMW are brilliant!!!

    Driscoll for all his flaws is the only leader who clearly said that women should look after the home and support the husband
    and stay at home dads were sinning

    all other leaders just stutter…

  73. Dalrock

    You normally describe specific spouse interactions when you use them as examples under a broader topic. Here you’ve made it the topic in and of itself and not unexpectedly, you have done it with panache in your last few posts.

    A man who claims this has not occurred in his marriage is a liar or so oblivious he is blissfully unaware that her releasing the inner porcupine and his ever desperate machinations in order to slip between the quills are normative relational dynamics for him.

    The radio bumbling buffoons acknowledge accidentally that this is the root cause of Christian divorce in the main. She creates her own devolution, circling the emotional drain as she reacts to what amounts to the husband reflecting her back at herself. Initially she gets tons of empathogasms as she discusses the ache, the loneliness, and the tears with her friends. But eventually one of them steals the empathy seat and she has to up the ante by divorcing.

    This is why divorce runs in multiples among women in common social circles.

  74. Sean says:

    @jonakc

    You’re going to have to enlighten me as to why the first link is so wrong. Well, other than the “mutual submission” part in the second to last pgh it’s not bad at all.

    9Marks piece is a bit weepy near the middle, sure, but the section “Lead in the Relationship” is not bad advice at all. He’s blue pill, I agree, but there’s sound advice amidst the chaff.

    Third link is written by a woman so why would any man be reading that looking for advice. If anything it’s humblebragging.

    Catwoman dresses up like Batman, too. He’s right, though: nail polish isn’t feminine, it’s application is. You’re looking way too deep to find something to argue with on link 4.

    So with the fifth article about the cowboy Mom, what exactly are you talking about? “men learning to restrain their emotions is a temptation!!” is nonsense. Read the part after the “or”. She’s teaching the young kids (before Dad gets to impart manliness) about the extremes in emotions. When you aren’t taught about the range of emotions, you end up femmy Gamma or unsociably angry. Seems like good advice.

    I read the linked CBMW pieces in other posts from Dalrock and they seem to reference a writer named JD Gunter that I couldn’t find listed in their about section. I also didn’t find anything linked in their About section referencing abuse, etc.

  75. jonakc1 says:

    first link
    mutual submission
    clearly CBMW endorses it- case closed
    9 marks one
    yes men lead
    men lead in being the domestic and submissive one…
    utter nonsense
    but at least I know what your version of leadership is
    CBMW publishes her articles… so CBMW men are reading it
    Courtney Reissig of CBMW is even worse, boasts on how she flies to speak to women and spends time writing while her husband looks after the kids and the home…
    CBMW HAS a whole section on abuse…

    Jackie HIll-Perry one of their speakers next year openly endorses stay at home dads…

    another one of their supporters JD GREEAR thinks Titus 2:5 was written for men as well
    so men have to be domestic homemakers…
    and I love how you just like other comple whatevers
    just ignore Jared Wilson’s piece on gender role reversal…

    and just keep reading their articles on men
    and articles on women
    you see more talk on homemaking, washing, cooking etc on the men’s channel
    then the women’s chanel
    clearly you don’t see that as an issue….
    I guess everyone is gender neutral and gender flexible these days…

    I suppose you also think Bethany Jenkins from TGC who endorses Sheryl Sandberg’s teaching on how a family should be run is a biblical Godly woman…

    and then the same people come around and say
    gay sex is a SIN!!
    really?
    you get to pretend all the verses on Gender in the bible do not apply
    you should extend that courtesy to others….

  76. jonakc1 says:

    in the cross dressing article
    he clearly states it is fine for is daughter to dress like batman
    ok sure
    but that also means he and other RP christian men should be fine and encourage their sons to wear cinderella frocks…
    and in what world is a woman who is a helicopter pilot an excellent wife?!!
    CBMW womanhood is no different to Sandberg womanhood

    all about career
    nothing about the home…
    I hope you have signed up for home economics classes as that is what you seem to think is what a Godly man should do… ( or rather you endorse CBMW who supports such ideals…)

  77. Looking Glass says:

    @jona:

    A classic bit to remember about Matthew 7:1-6 is that it’s quite easy to see Sin in others. It’s also really important to remember that it’s very easy to notice & call out Sins that you have little temptation. This tends to show up in that the people that “stayed” in Churches don’t have much temptation to Alcohol or Drugs, so it’s easy to beat up on those topics. Yet, notice the complete lack of discussion of Gluttony these days.🙂

    But the issue you’re pointing out is, quite directly, the Sin of the Fall.

  78. Dalrock says:

    @Sean

    I read the linked CBMW pieces in other posts from Dalrock and they seem to reference a writer named JD Gunter that I couldn’t find listed in their about section. I also didn’t find anything linked in their About section referencing abuse, etc.

    I linked to the JD Gunter article at CBMW when I discussed it. I’m not sure why you are looking for him in the about page. As far as abuse, they have reworked their site since I wrote that post, and made the statement on abuse less prominant. You can still see a remnant of the page here though: http://cbmw.org/about/ to get a pretty good idea of how it was. It looks like they have gotten rid of their “Why we exist” page, but here is a copy on internet archive from Sept 2013 when I wrote my post: https://web.archive.org/web/20130921012905/http://cbmw.org/why-we-exist/

    Also keep in mind that the CBMW was founded in part in reaction to (#6 of 10 reasons):

    the upsurge of physical and emotional abuse in the family

    In that same founding (Danvers) statement, they created a brand new sin for women, the sin of servility, which they put on the same level as usurpation:

    the wife’s intelligent, willing submission tends to be replaced by usurpation or servility.

    This is pure feminist nonsense, and it is in their founding document. Before they were born they coddled Christian feminists. Since then they have only drifted further in that direction.

    However, I suspect from your comments above that you wouldn’t even take their word for their views on these subjects. You already know what they are like, and evidence to the contrary is therefore ignored.

  79. Dalrock says:

    Thank you for the kind words Empath.

  80. Sean says:

    @ Dalrock

    Let’s just say that I have a bit of a vested interest in asking these questions. Email me at the addy used in my name and I’ll explain. I’d rather not go into detail here ATM.

    Perhaps my frame is off here or I’m missing something but I’m not seeing the crying out for usurpation through the majority of the links supplied. I thoroughly agree that there are gender roles in the home. Full stop. I also don’t see the issue in emptying a dishwasher that’s full if there’s time to kill or giving The Wife (if I was married) a day off from maternal stuff. If it happens everyday in a house there are serious issues, yes.

    The second like about the single Christian man has blue pill fluff, yes. But the heart of the piece is leading in the relationship and being at least a bit bold instead of the milquetoast typical Christian man. Inside chaff is wheat.

  81. jonakc1 says:

    keep ignoring the stay at home dad link!
    Jared Wilson is the comple whatever that other complefeminists live to ignore…

    giving her a day off ?
    do men get days off from being husbands and dads?
    also a wife who seeks days off from being a wife is clearly not satisfied with God and his plan for women…
    neither CBMW or you are talking about emptying a dishwasher or helping every now and then
    they are talking about men being domestic as a sign of leadership…
    utter nonsense
    I was under a CBMW type youth pastor
    he provided yes
    but his wife also made him do everything at home after he built houses in the heat and sweated and toiled all day
    he was never allowed to visit friends
    his desire to go for a Greek night class was seen as selfish
    his wife never let him relax etc…
    oh and if he was around his wife never changed diapers or rarely fed him…

    please technology has advanced if anything women should have become more efficient at running the home
    instead CBMW subsidises their laziness

    a Christian woman from the 1800’s heck even Elizabeth Elliot saw such women as selfish and unloving

    CBMW calls them Godly
    exactly what Dalrock has been highlighting
    the rebellious women is not the wife one must praise
    and the Godly wife is seen as too backward and less evolved…

    enjoy running the home sean
    but if you pretend a husband can swap with a wife and vice versa
    and doing that is servant leadership
    you are basically saying that male and female is NOT needed…
    they can just swap roles..
    day off from maternal and
    wifely duties…
    please…
    Mary the mother of Christ would have laughed at such a woman, clearly such women do not see motherhood as a vital role and different from fatherhood…
    if one gets a day off, they can get a year off
    etc
    and it implies they are doing a bigger sacrifice etc
    which they are not…

  82. jonakc1 says:

    you are correct but I explained that to you …
    they are NOT crying out for usurpation
    they re more subtle
    more cunning just like the Devil is
    men still lead, just like men did 50 and more years ago

    BUT
    instead of focusing on provision, protection and leadership
    they run the home
    learn to be feminine
    just like the 9marks article
    they lead in mutual submission- like the CBMW article…

    there is a reason why CBMW women never teach other women to be workers at home
    there is a reason why CBMW men never teach other men on how to manage your wife , disciple her etc…
    they don’t actually believe what they say
    the whole reason they exist is to show that they are actually more feminist than the feminists…

  83. Sean says:

    @ jonakc

    Easy on the bitterness. It’s called being kind. Yes, we as men do/should get days off from family life. If you don’t in your relationship, something’s amiss. You’re telling me a hunting/fishing trip or a Saturday at a college game isn’t a day off?

    Kindness begets kindness if she starts it. Kindness begets disgust if men do.

  84. jonakc1 says:

    I cannot imagine Isaiah, Moses, Joseph etc telling their wives to go hang out with their friends while they ran the home and cared for the kids like moms do…
    kindness begets kindness
    but one does not treat a woman like a man….
    if a wife’s responsibilities can just be accomplished by the husband- what need is there for a wife?
    again it implies, there is no male and female and one can just swap them around…

    not one man in the bible was praised for being domestic or running the home so the wife could hang out or pursue her desire to plant her own fields or her aim to become an elder at the gates…
    yet CBMW and you? seem to think that this is servant leadership…

    men looking after the kids and home – something they are never asked to do is like crosss dressing
    even if it is done just once ( obviously this excludes sickness etc- but even then other women from society would swoop in to fill in for the wife, not like today where men pretend they are women…)
    ll you are doing is pretending you are a woman
    and telling God he made a mistake for making you a man…

  85. MarcusD says:

    Can Catholic Women work outside the home? (…)
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=983430

    “Can” and “should” are frequently confused, of course.

    Interesting part starts at 7:00 (re: dropping kids off at daycare, etc).

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  87. theasdgamer says:

    jona needs to learn not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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  90. jonakc1 says:

    it is not about that
    I refuse to believe Godly manhood is measured by how domestic a man is…
    this was never the measure of a man for 2000 years
    now all of a sudden it has become one, at the exact same time as the feminist movement?!
    the bible never asks men to run the home or portrays men doing homemaking…

    nowadays men at my church are praised for letting their wives travel and live with her parents for months while he looks after the kids
    wives have all the benefits of modern technology
    women of the past never expected their husbands to do homemaking
    now women expect their husbands to do so- else they are not GODLY
    it is clear women have become lazy, but no one dares to address that…

    the church i attended was complementarian, male leadership etc
    but in practice it is egalitarian
    the men always ask permission form their wives to do anything
    and are the homemakers and primary child caretakers outside work
    there are no real roles etc
    if the measure of manhood is domesticity as CBMW etc imply
    instead of provision etc
    it is NOT biblical
    and no Godly man from the 1600’s to 1970 would qualify to be an elder at any of the current churches as all of them expected their wives to run the home and look after the kids…
    if christians get to change their beliefs on gender and roles
    I don’t see why they can’t do the same on gay marriage
    as following the bible is CLEARLY not their priority….

  91. theasdgamer says:

    @ Jim Christian

    Yeah, she was too many Oreos over the line, but maybe it’s time guys speak up,

    I like your way of thinking. Operation ShivTalk. But do it from a White Knighting position. Hit ’em from two angles:

    1. It’s not fair to women to expect them to compete with men. The article on women Marines slowing infantry movement is perfect for this. (“Unfair to women” meme)

    2. We need to protect our women. The article on women Marines also pings this point. (“Protect our women” meme)

    This takes the FI ground away from feminists.

  92. theasdgamer says:

    @ desiderian

    “fitness testing evil sex denying harpy”

    Fitness testing is the opposite of sex denying.

    Women don’t fitness test men with whom they do not want sex.

    Women will do a loyalty fitness test if they are thinking about ending a relationship.

  93. Sean says:

    @jonakc

    Nice little strawman you’ve got there. Shame if anything happened to it.

    I don’t see anyone in this thread claiming that men should do any of: majority of housework, majority of child rearing, allowing female abdication of domestic duties or anything of the sort.

  94. >Fitness testing is the opposite of sex denying.
    >Women don’t fitness test men with whom they do not want sex.

    Yes they do. Women fitness test all the way through the divorce trial and beyond. They do it constantly when they are NOT attracted. You are conflating a woman’s playful shit tests with an Alpha begging to get slapped down and tingled with the vile harpy nonstop rudeness and cruel, callous coldness women do to men they perceive as Beta.

  95. Anonymous Reader says:

    Fitness testing is the opposite of sex denying.

    What? Denying sex is a fitness test in and of itself as a general rule.

    Women don’t fitness test men with whom they do not want sex.

    Like bpp I must disagree, and for pretty much the same reason. Fitness testing is a feature of women, it is a side effect of hypergamy. As a man becomes betaized in an LTR, he will be fitness tested more, and if he fails too many he will get much more such testing, and the testing will become more intense. “Fitness test to destruction” is not at all unusual.

    PS:
    The solution isn’t to beg women to stop fitness testing, that’s pointless. The solution is to develop a frame that doesn’t break very easily, and deal with the testing from that frame.

  96. Pingback: She lost her best friend. | Dalrock

  97. jonakc1 says:

    yes
    no one here does
    but as I pointed out CBMW
    9 Marks
    TGC etc
    spend more time trying to domesticate men and tell women it is okay to work and travel while your husband servant leads and looks after the home…

    prior to the feminist movement
    men would work hard, come home etc and be free to pursue other interests, serve society or the church

    now men work hard, come home and sit and master homemaking while their wife sits on facebook because unless a man does the female role, he is not worth submitting too
    none of us here- except maybe you believe this…

    you are just imagining a strawman

  98. Anonymous Reader says:

    jonakc1, who are you replying to? Voices in your head, or someone writing here?
    It’s not clear. Perhaps you should include some context in your comments?

  99. BradA says:

    Reincarnation of GBFM?

  100. jeff says:

    LJBF for married couples = Love, but not in love.

  101. Dale says:

    That’s a low blow BradA.🙂
    jonakc1 is demonstrating intelligence in some of his comments. True, he may be asserting things that no one here disagrees with.

    I was so glad when Dalrock banned GBFM. Guess I have to admit that sometimes I would rather not have to deal with the effort of trying to help certain kinds of people, as it is so aggravating or annoying to have to interact with them. Gee, that last sentence turned this comment to be on topic! 🙂

  102. jonakc1 says:

    am replying to Sean
    who insists CBMW etc are biblical…
    I refuse to believe individuals who think men should servant lead with choreplay and support of their wife’s careers etc is biblical…
    or believing that men should come home after work and their wife stops being a wife and mom and sits on facebook
    and using that as an example of Godly manhood…

  103. Pingback: This Week in Reaction (2015/10/18) | The Reactivity Place

  104. Anonymous Reader says:

    am replying to Sean

    It would be a good idea to make such a thing clear in the future.
    Also learn how to use the shift key more often.

  105. Paul Murray says:

    “I’ve written in the past about a time in our marriage roughly 20 years ago where my wife would at times go out of her way to make me not want to be around. When she did this I’d go hunting or fishing, or do something else rather than choose to stick around and be treated that way. ”

    This is what BlackDragon calls a “soft next”.

  106. BradA says:

    You may be right Dale. 🙂

    I was more thinking of the disconnect. GBFM was just way out there.

    jonakc1,

    You would benefit a lot from proper writing, including proper paragraphs, punctuation, etc. It helps get your points across better. You do have good ones, but they are often buried in the format. Using single blank lines to separate paragraphs and using capitals to start sentences would help.

    Or keep posting as you wish, it is up to you! People here don’t necessarily like me better because I write in a more structured manner most of the time.

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