The Crafty Harlot

Having made my readers suffer four posts on the saccharine sweetness of modern Christian culture, I feel obligated to cleanse your palate with the salty wisdom of the Bible.

In the discussion of a recent post the topic of what to tell young men about loose women came up.  Proverbs 7 immediately came to mind, and if you aren’t familiar with it or if it has been a while since you have read it I highly recommend reading the whole thing (it is short).  The frame is strikingly anti-feminist, and therefore strikingly anti modern Christian culture.  The proverb describes the crafty harlot, who lies in wait for an unsuspecting victim.

She was loud and rebellious,
Her feet would not stay at home.

Her prey is a young man devoid of understanding.  She catches the young man and kisses him.  She tells him she has prepared her bed with fine linens and perfumes, and that her husband is away.

With her enticing speech she caused him to yield,
With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter,

The proverb is a warning to all men to not be caught in the snare of such a woman.  It closes with:

Her house is the way to hell,
Descending to the chambers of death.

 

Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson

This entry was posted in Rebellion, Ugly Feminists. Bookmark the permalink.

113 Responses to The Crafty Harlot

  1. okrahead says:

    Which verse covers her love of Kendrick brothers movies?

  2. Miserman says:

    I get the impression that modern Christian women use the Proverbs 31 woman as an excuse to act like a Proverbs 7 woman.

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  5. okrahead says:

    “Loud and rebellious” sounds rather like “strong and independent” in today’s parlance.

  6. Where’s the part about it being her husband’s fault? Must have been lost in translation.

  7. thelame1walks says:

    This is another sample of more of the same type of warnings about evil women to young men. Immoral women with the intent to destroy do exist, contrary to Cultural christian belief. Proverbs is full of these kinds of warnings about such women not just in 7 and 5

    Proverbs 5:4
    For the lips of a forbidden woman drip honey,
    and her speech is smoother than oil,

    but in the end she is bitter as wormwood,
    sharp as a two-edged sword.

    Her feet go down to death;
    her steps follow the path to Sheol;

    she does not ponder the path of life;
    her ways wander, and she does not know it.

    And now, O sons, listen to me,
    and do not depart from the words of my mouth.

    Keep your way far from her,
    and do not go near the door of her house,

    lest you give your honor to others
    and your years to the merciless,

    lest strangers take their fill of your strength,
    and your labors go to the house of a foreigner,

    and at the end of your life you groan,
    when your flesh and body are consumed,

  8. bkilbour says:

    Ah, wisdom. Solomon exhorts us to gain it, and he presents the greatest wisdom of the ages. And the modern world spits on it.

  9. Scott says:

    I get the impression that modern Christian women use the Proverbs 31 woman as an excuse to act like a Proverbs 7 woman.

    This would be an interesting topic by itself. I have noticed in recent years a huge swell in blogs and FB pages devoted to being a “Proverbs 31 woman” or something and when you read through the stuff you shake your head.

    It’s like trendy for Christian women to use the phrase “Proverbs 31 Woman” to describe the stuff they are already doing.

    Or guys putting posts up about their wives on their birthdays “13 years ago I married this Proverbs 31 Woman who is sassy, strong and has been keeping me in line ever since.”

    And I think “I know her. She is NOT a Proverbs 31 Woman.”

    Lame.

  10. Renee Harris says:

    Isn’t proverb 31 in truth the church? The perfect wife for the perfect bride groom. Is this true or not .

  11. theasdgamer says:

    Proverbs 31 outlines a plan for a woman’s home-based business. It describes a woman of noble character. She is strong (for a woman) because she works with her hands a lot. She works with raw clothing fibers to spin threads after selecting the fibers. The P31 woman makes fabric that she sells. The P31 woman buys land and plants vineyards. The P31 woman is industrious and energetic. Where does she get her energy? From her husband, because sex gives a woman energy. The P31 woman is a shrewd buyer and knows both the local marketplace and distant marketplaces. She knows vendors. The P31 woman makes rich clothing for her household and for herself (purple, the color of royalty, which was expensive). She also sells clothing. The P31 woman has female servants under her. The P31 woman understands profit, cost, etc., and manages her business. The P31 woman makes household items like blankets, quilts, and sheets. The P31 woman makes sammiches for her husband and children. The husband of the P31 woman has high status and perhaps it’s a partially a result of the P31 woman’s reputation.

  12. Miserman says:

    @Renee Harris. Isn’t proverb 31 in truth the church? The perfect wife for the perfect bride groom. Is this true or not

    Some do say that yes, Proverbs 31 describes the perfect spiritual state of Christ’s bride. However, in our material state, modern Christian women oft believe that they are the perfect bride.

    So, in the name of Proverbs 31:

    Her children rise up and call her blessed; Her husband also, and he praises her … Give her of the fruit of her hands, And let her own works praise her in the gates (vv. 28,31 NKJV).

    a woman acts likes Proverbs 7:

    She was loud and rebellious, Her feet would not stay at home. At times she was outside, at times in the open square, Lurking at every corner (vv. 11,12 NKJV).

    Hence, my statement.

  13. Anonymous Reader says:

    An interesting experiment to perform on Tradcons: talk about “the women of Proverbs” briefly, and see if they know of any other than 31. Odds are they do not, in my admittedly limited experience, and this affords any number of opportunities for hilarity once they’ve run down the Women Are Wonderful rabbit trail for a while.

    “What about the woman who is like a ditch a man can’t get out of? What about the one who eats and wipes her mouth? What about the one like a rainy day that won’t end? What about the one who makes her husband willingly go live on the roof?” — generallly this produces a blank look on the face of the Tradcon, a “what are you saying, huh?” look. Again, my sample set is small.

    But. Based on my small sample set I have one conclusion: Tradcons claim to know all about a book they don’t actually seem to have read much. I leave the implications of this to others…

    PS: It would be interesting to count the number of mentions of women in Proverbs, and compare the number of warnings vs. the number of praisings. I do believe there are far more warnings, or critical observations. How can that be, hmm?

  14. Scott says:

    AR–

    Nice.

    I remember when I was at the seminary, we had a class on wisdom literature and we went through Proverbs, line by line. I had forgotten about the woman whose husband would rather live on the roof than with her.

  15. Stingray says:

    It would be interesting to count the number of mentions of women in Proverbs, and compare the number of warnings vs. the number of praisings.

    I wonder if this would match up with Roissy’s fraction for praise. What is it, 2/3? 1/3? I can’t remember. I bet it comes close.

  16. okrahead says:

    There is also the woman whose husband would rather live in the wilderness than be with her. That’s why the hunting season keeps getting longer every year around here…

  17. Looking Glass says:

    @asdgamer:

    The P31 Woman is Home-Industry Mogul. It’s always been a fascinating read.

    And I highly suggest to any Man, to actually read out loud Proverbs 7. Get it in your ears a few times. After you get through the sense that you haven’t been listening to God for a while, it’s a wonderful set of passages.

  18. Joyce says:

    Just curious; why post Scripture quoted from the King James Bible? The KJB is 400 years old and the Elizabethan English is archaic and difficult to follow for modern readers. It is the equivalent of me reading this morning’s newspaper in Shakespearean English…I could probably get through it but I might miss some of the meaning due to the outdated language.

    Otherwise, a message that needs to be heard in today’s society.

  19. desiderian says:

    Proverbs does not stand well on its own (unless one wishes to end up like its putative author). Best taken with a generous dose of the book before and three following.

    There is also good reason why in time a New Testament became necessary.

  20. theasdgamer says:

    Girls Night Out! Empowerment! Don’t linger in that boring old house! God wants you to have fun!

  21. ahlstar says:

    Let us not forget the oft overlooked way the entire P31 Woman section starts in verse 10, asking ‘Who can even find her?’

  22. DrTorch says:

    She was loud and rebellious,

    vs

    “Well behaved women rarely make history”

    (which given the quotes origins, http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/03/well-behaved-women/ is a shame that it’s been twisted)

  23. Exfernal says:

    @thelame1walks
    Sounds like a warning against incurable STDs, especially the last two verses.

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  25. Oscar says:

    @ Renee Harris says:
    October 2, 2015 at 10:15 am

    “Isn’t proverb 31 in truth the church? The perfect wife for the perfect bride groom. Is this true or not.”

    No, not at all. The Book of Proverbs is neither allegorical nor prophetic. It’s a book full of practical advice for everyday life. Proverbs 31, specifically, is advice a mother gave her son, including advice to avoid drunkenness and the kind of wife he should seek. Christians who twist Proverbs 31 into an allegory or prophecy about the church do so in order to excuse “Christian”
    women who have no desire to strive for the ideal set forth in the chapter.

  26. Excellent post! By coincidence I wrote of just such a woman today. Bad to worse.

  27. @AR

    In many ways Proverbs 31 seems to have been written by a woman, but the key to Proverbs 31 is in verse 10: “An excellent wife, who can find? For her worth is far above jewels.” The point of this verse (how rare such a woman actually is) is brought into focus by Ecclesiastes 7:23-29

    “I tested all this with wisdom, and I said, I will be wise, but it was far from me. What has been is remote and exceedingly mysterious. Who can discover it? I directed my mind to know, to investigate, and to seek wisdom and an explanation, and to know the evil of folly and the foolishness of madness. And I discovered more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are chains. One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but the sinner will be captured by her. Behold, I have discovered this, says the Preacher, adding one thing to another to find an explanation, which I am still seeking but have not found. I have found one man among a thousand, but I have not found a woman among all these. Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.”

    One righteous man out of a thousand, but not a righteous woman among all of them? Hmmm. What is Scripture telling us about women? Better yet, compare the Proverbs 31 woman with Scripture’s descriptions of righteous men.

    If you really want to have fun, ask the tradcons which passage in Scripture describes the ideal man. Consider what God said in Ezekiel 14:13-14

    “Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast, even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord GOD.

    Of the three, my vote goes to Job. Consider what God said to Satan: “Have you seen My servant Job? There is none like him.” High praise from the Creator of the universe. Job 29 is the male equivalent of Proverbs 31, describing an apex Alpha male.

    Look at verse 17: “I broke the fangs of the wicked and snatched the prey from his teeth.” Question a feminist tradcon on the implications of that.

    Want to see how a woman will treat even an alpha like Job when things aren’t going his way? Look at what his wife said to him and the way she treated him. I’m guessing she stuck with him because she had nowhere else to go.

  28. Dalrock says:

    @DrTorch

    She was loud and rebellious,

    vs

    “Well behaved women rarely make history”

    Exactly. Along with “I am woman hear me roar” and “Ban Bossy”. Feminism is the antithesis of the quiet, gentle spirit.

    Edit: I should note that I have two posts already written on this topic and will probably publish them next week.

  29. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I once attended weekly Bible study at a local Catholic church. One of the older women (50s or 60s) made some snide, offhand remarks about “the Bible’s patriarchy.” As if it were a given that all that “patriarchal stuff” was untruthful and immoral, and not to be taken seriously.

    The priest didn’t correct the woman. He instead silently nodded, implying understanding and sympathy with her disdain for Biblical patriarchy.

  30. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    It now appears that referring to pregnancy as something that can only happen to women is “transphobic.” So the transexual community is seeking gender-neutral terms when discussing pregnancy: http://www.mercatornet.com/conjugality/view/lets-get-this-straight.-a-man-cannot-give-birth/16939

    There is apparently a pregnant woman — who identifies as a man. So despite her pregnancy, and her having a uterus, she wants to be recognized as being a pregnant man.

  31. Scott says:

    The priest didn’t correct the woman. He instead silently nodded, implying understanding and sympathy with her disdain for Biblical patriarchy.

    If someone could make a “top five things that are making getting the RP message out hard” this would be very close to top of that list. You really have to stick your neck out there in these kinds of settings to refute it.

    It (or some form of it) happens to me about 2-3 times a week. Maintaining frame through it is the hardest thing I do.

  32. Oscar says:

    @Artisanal Toad says:
    October 2, 2015 at 1:02 pm

    “One righteous man out of a thousand, but not a righteous woman among all of them? Hmmm. What is Scripture telling us about women?”

    It’s telling us to avoid the kind of women Solomon chased after (the kind he was warned about), and what happens when we disobey God.

    1 Kings 11 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the Lord had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.” Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.

    Ecclesiastes tells us a lot more about Solomon – about how disobedience can destroy a life full of potential – than it does about the people with whom Solomon intereacted.

    “Job 29 is the male equivalent of Proverbs 31, describing an apex Alpha male.

    Want to see how a woman will treat even an alpha like Job when things aren’t going his way? Look at what his wife said to him and the way she treated him. I’m guessing she stuck with him because she had nowhere else to go.”

    You’re probably right about both Job and his wife. However, we have no indication that Job’s wife was a Proverbs 31 woman. In fact, her treatment of him disqualifies her (Proverbs 31:12 She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life).

    As for the existence of righteous women, Abigail comes to mind, and the New Testament gives us multiple examples. Plus, the New Testament tells us which women in the Old Testament were righteous.

  33. theasdgamer says:

    “Sounds like a warning against incurable STDs, especially the last two verses.”

    More likely the husband was waiting with a club behind a curtain to kill and rob the poor sap.

  34. theasdgamer says:

    And I discovered more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are chains. One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but the sinner will be captured by her.

    Woman whose heart is snares and nets: “Why won’t he commit?”

    Who escapes from her? The alpha. Who gets captured? Betas.

  35. Habakkuk says:

    “Who escapes from her? The alpha. Who gets captured? Betas.” – Theasdgamer

    Don’t confuse Alpha with being righteous.

  36. galloper6 says:

    From P7 I get the image of of Bruce Jenner the once great athlete going into the house of harpies.

  37. Exfernal says:

    @theasdgamer:
    Also possible, although it makes me wonder who would bring ‘bling’ into secret affair.

  38. BradA says:

    I don’t get any impression of the husband robbing the sap. It seems more like he would be revenging the encounter with his wife.

    Oscar, what version is that from? I do not believe all 700 of his wives were of royal birth.

  39. Boxer says:

    Thanks Mr. Dalrock, for spreading the realtalk.

    …and remember boys: No Hymen, No Diamond!
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/nohymennodiamond?f=tweets&vertical=news&src=hash

  40. Oscar says:

    @ Brad,

    I pasted from the NIV above. The KJV reads…

    1 Kings 11:3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

  41. theasdgamer says:

    @ Brad

    I don’t get any impression of the husband robbing the sap. It seems more like he would be revenging the encounter with his wife.

    I see that you didn’t get the notes. The husband is in it with the wife. She’s the lure. Hubby’s hidden, which is why you never see him there. It’s implied. Yeah, women never lie. The husband’s on a business trip. Except he isn’t. The sap ends up dead. “Be wise as serpents.”

    Death from STD’s? STDs from adultery were rare. There was LOTS of sex with slaves. STDs came mostly from those liaisons. Nothing illegal about sex with a slave.

  42. theasdgamer says:

    @ Exfernal

    Also possible, although it makes me wonder who would bring ‘bling’ into secret affair.

    Bling is window dressing to aid in believability.

  43. Proverbs 31 was not written by Solomon, but by King Lemuel. Further it is the instruction that his own mother provided, so that he could find a fit queen. Thus it is not directed toward women primarily, but to men. It is advice on how a man is to chose a wife. If a woman desires to be chosen by a wise man she should of course take note. Lemuel’s mother instructs him to look for character and by all means do not let her take his strength or authority, that is he is to avoid at all costs submitting to her and becoming bewitched by her charms. She is to be industrious not lazy, trustworthy and befitting his station. Even though she is rich she wakes up early and stasy up late to serve others. She works with her hands and is in good physical shape. She speaks with kindness and does her husband good and never harms him or his reputation. She never resists making her husband samiches!

    She is like a unicorn, worth more than rubies, and rarely found.

  44. crowhill says:

    It’s always seemed to me that the young man was asking for it. He went along the street near her house, then he took the path to her house. He hung out there from evening until night. When she met him, she soothed his conscience with phony talk about religiosity.

    IOW, he was looking for trouble, and he found it. He didn’t have the sense to know the consequences.

    The lesson to men is to stay away from near occasions of sin. Before you sin you usually put yourself in a dangerous/tempting situation, then you stay there when you should run, then you let yourself be fooled when you should turn away, then you fall.

  45. fakeemail says:

    The Bible understands human nature. The feminists and their ilk do not and will never know that they do not.

    There are hardly any virtuous white women left in the world.

  46. The Question says:

    Solomon on harlots: Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways. Do not stray into her paths.

    Modern pastor on harlots: Man up and marry that slut!….after the divorce is finalized, of course.

    My, how times have changed……

  47. Dalrock says:

    @Oscar

    @Artisanal Toad says:
    October 2, 2015 at 1:02 pm

    “One righteous man out of a thousand, but not a righteous woman among all of them? Hmmm. What is Scripture telling us about women?”

    It’s telling us to avoid the kind of women Solomon chased after (the kind he was warned about), and what happens when we disobey God.

    1 Kings 11 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter…

    Why change the topic from Solomon’s wisdom to Solomon’s sin? Given that the post is regarding a proverb of Solomon’s, isn’t the earlier part of 1 Kings more relevant:

    12 behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you.

  48. Oscar says:

    @ Dalrock says:
    October 2, 2015 at 4:33 pm

    “Why change the topic from Solomon’s wisdom to Solomon’s sin? Given that the post is regarding a proverb of Solomon’s, isn’t the earlier part of 1 Kings more relevant:”

    I wasn’t replying to your post. I was replying to AT’s commentary on Ecclesiastes. When discussing Ecclesiastes, the “earlier part of 1 Kings more relevant” is NOT more relevant, because Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes late in life. In other words, he wrote it after he’d indulged in the sins listed in 1 Kings 11. 1 Kings 11, therefore, puts the passage in Ecclesiastes that AT referenced in context. Without that context, people who haven’t read Solomon’s life all the way through can’t understand why he wrote what he wrote in Ecclesiastes (the passage AT referenced).

    I don’t mean to imply that AT hasn’t read 1 Kings 11, but someone else who reads AT’s comment may not have.

  49. Striver says:

    I thought it was clear that Proverbs 5 was referring to frivorce and child support.

  50. Cane Caldo says:

    @asdgamer

    I see that you didn’t get the notes. The husband is in it with the wife. She’s the lure. Hubby’s hidden, which is why you never see him there. It’s implied. Yeah, women never lie. The husband’s on a business trip. Except he isn’t. The sap ends up dead.

    In my good ear?

  51. JDG says:

    In my good ear?

    I didn’t get “the notes” either.

  52. Oscar says:

    @ Dalrock

    You are most welcome.

  53. Adam says:

    Interestingly, the Proverbs 31 woman also holds insight into our economy. The chapter is clear that she cooks, cleans, sews, takes care of her children and runs a business/buys property. That is she does 5 jobs. Look at the jobs. In our economy only one of them, running a business, produces a livable wage, and yet all of the other 4 jobs are necessary. People have to eat, wear clothes, and get clothes cleaned. Children need to be taken care of.

    This tells me that every women that leaves the home to work creates jobs. Most of them are low wage, service sector jobs like food service, child care, and retail.

    And pundits wonder from where the problems with our economy (such as inequality) comes from

  54. Neguy says:

    The money verse in this story: “As a bird hastens to the snare, so he does not know it will cost him his life.”

  55. @Adam

    These days it’s called “homesteading” and from personal experience I can tell you that if you have a lot of kids, it’s worth it. We raised about 100 broilers every year in mobile pens that got moved around the pasture every day. We also had a large flock of laying hens. We had a large garden every year and would usually can 800 to 1000 quarts of garden produce. Veggies, stews, spaghetti sauce, etc. We also canned the chicken, usually half a chicken per quart. We’d go to the orchard and pick a few bushels of apple, and buy a few hundred pounds of grapes. That gave us applesauce, apple pie filling, grape juice, grape preserves and a few gallons of wine.

    We’d go in with another family and buy half a beef from one of the local cattlemen, it usually came out to about $2.50 per pound for ~350-400 lbs of beef, cut, packaged and frozen. I’d pop one or two deer on the back 40, we’d grind them up with added beef tallow from the local butcher and make sausages. We bought raw milk from a private local dairy and made our own butter and cheese. Having our own milk cows was on the agenda but we moved before that happened. We ate very, very well for very little money.

    If I did it today (and I probably will again) I’d go with an aquaponics setup in a large greenhouse to round out the mix and give us veggies all through the winter. A SAHM that homeschools the children will be able to cook the meals and send her husband to work with sandwiches. When the garden really starts to produce the children are there to help. We used to set up a “canning kitchen” on the porch with a gas stove and a couple of tables, because when things really got going the stove was on all day long. I welded up some large vats that went over all four eyes of the stove for efficiency.

    The other thing I’d do is build an underground house using shipping containers. It’s amazing what you can do with those things to get a beautiful home, cheap. Best of all is the “cave heating” effect. The house stays cool in the summer and warm in the winter, drastically cutting the cost of utilities down to 20% to 25% of a comparable above-ground home. Built correctly they’re bright and airy, yet tornado and earthquake proof. I have skills and I know I could build one of these houses for $30 to $35 per square foot, so a 2000 sq.ft. home would come in at $60k – $70k which gets the mortgage down to a very manageable amount.

    Cutting food costs and utility costs by 75% to 80% combined with a low mortgage means the husband could support his family in comfort as the single wage earner and mom could stay at home. As for the retirement plan and inheritance for the children, here’s how to turn $50k-$75k into several million dollars in 10 years:

    https://artisanaltoadshall.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/alternate-investments-for-alternative-lifestyles/

  56. GeminiXcX says:

    Artisanal Toad

    If you really want to have fun, ask the tradcons which passage in Scripture describes the ideal man.

    Is this a trick question for them?

    The ideal man was Jesus in human form; but since no human is perfect, I would reference the big list at Hebrews 11:1-8;17-28;32-39 for examples of “ideal” (aka “God approved”) OT men. Then to (re-)read the scriptures with all the names in mind, and see what those imperfect men still did that earned them such an honorable mention in the NT.

    -GXcX

  57. They Call Me Tom says:

    desiderian says “Proverbs does not stand well on its own (unless one wishes to end up like its putative author). Best taken with a generous dose of the book before and three following.”

    I always find that when I read Ecclesiastes; Proverbs, Psalms and Job then need to be read. Likewise when I start with Proverbs, it seems like Ecclesiastes, Psalms and Job want to be read.

    I never thought of it as one book not standing up well on it’s own, but rather, those books stand out from the old testament. If I remember right none of them starts with a geneology, nor make specific reference to the history of the Hebrews. They are sort of one book split into four chapters.

  58. They Call Me Tom says:

    By the way…on Proverbs 31… ‘her husband is respected at the city gate.’

    In other words, she doesn’t denigrate him at every opportunity when they are out in public, but rather the opposite, she respects him and makes him respected. Wonder how many self-proclaimer proverbs 31 women do this, or whether they feed that part to their hamster.

  59. Mulier says:

    The passage from Proverbs that I try to keep in mind when I feel rebellious or malcontented is a paraphrase of Proverbs 14:1: “The foolish woman tears down her house with her own hands.” This is such an excellent representation of the self-sabotaging folly of a wife with an unquiet spirit. Instead of an exasperated sigh, I might as well break a window. The harm to the family, to the marriage, and to my husband would be the same. I find this a useful mental image to reorient myself in bad moments.

  60. desiderian says:

    Tom,

    “I never thought of it as one book not standing up well on it’s own”

    Proverbs is notorious for being the biblical cliff notes: the book most quoted by people who want to look like they’re familiar with scripture but who have rarely cracked the book. So I’m always a little leery of those who quote it alone, and take care not to rely on it alone myself (which is just good general exegetical practice for any book/passage regardless).

  61. desiderian says:

    and yes, the bread of Ecclesiastes is awfully unleavened by itself.

  62. benfromtexas says:

    Good post. Short & sweet.

  63. Coastal says:

    I’ve always found self-proclaimed “Proverbs 31” single women to be a turn-off. If you have to run around telling everyone that you’re wife material, you probably aren’t – it needs to show through your actions. This is like a dude running around claiming to be an “Alpha Male”, it looks really insecure and all of the actual alphas know that he’s full of poopoo.

  64. BradA says:

    ADS, the idea of him rutting with the guy’s wife and both being run through with a spear seems more likely. I see nothing that indicates a robbery attempt and I do not read things into the Scriptures like that without a solid reason. Meeting your view of life is not one of those reasons.

  65. BradA says:

    Boxer,

    Pretty amazing that so many oppose anything that will hold women accountable for their actions, yet those same individuals want women to be able to do anything.

    They also don’t even see men who are committed to righteousness and don’t sleep around, assuming all men conquer all they can. Seems like aiming only at the top 20% of men to me.

    I can see why logical arguments are useless in that case. They do not listen to logic, thus only rhetoric will work.

  66. Dave says:

    This is like a dude running around claiming to be an “Alpha Male”, it looks really insecure and all of the actual alphas know that he’s full of poopoo.

    I am Alpha male. I forgive you all for thinking I am full of poopoo, LOL.

  67. Pathfinderlight says:

    Dalrock and readers, can you please help? I need some advice. A LTR pseudo girlfriend has recently come out saying “I think I’m a feminist.” When asked to clarify, she said “Just how I feel. I don’t see anything a guy can do that a woman can’t and vice versa”. My instinct is that this is some sort of shit test. While I don’t want to, I’m willing to call it quits because I won’t marry a feminist. Since the feminist conversation, she has asked if I think she’s pretty/attractive, to which I haven’t replied.

    My question is this: how do I make it clear that feminism has taken its toll on society by supporting murder of the preborn, destroying family harmony, and starting a gender war while still being even handed? Also, what is the best way of showing a feminist her views are wrong? Thanks in advance.

  68. Looking Glass says:

    @PathfinderLight:

    Part of me would suggest (if the local environment allows for it) taking her on a hike, making sure she has a 40+ lbs (20+ kg) pack she has to carry. Get to the top of the hike, way up, then dump her there.

    That was a pure fitness test, but it also says far too much about her Heart. Time to warm up the “next” button. (And, sorry to hear that. The time investment lost always hurts.)

  69. Boxer says:

    My question is this: how do I make it clear that feminism has taken its toll on society by supporting murder of the preborn, destroying family harmony, and starting a gender war while still being even handed? Also, what is the best way of showing a feminist her views are wrong? Thanks in advance.

    You’re preoccupied with “showing her [that] her views are wrong” which is the wrong mindset.

    Chick: “I think I’m a feminist”
    Boxer: “Mmm-Hmm, that’s nice. Were we down for a romp this sunday night? If so, was it your place or mine?”

    By all means, if she’s a family member that you have to deal with, maybe you can gently debate her. For a girlfriend, taking her opinions seriously won’t increase her attraction. If you’re looking for a LTR or marriage, moreover, you’d probably be better off replacing her with someone who is more sensible.

    Don’t marry a feminist. They’re poor bets for a serious relationship and only good for fuck and chuck.

    Just my (admittedly crass) opinion.

    Boxer

  70. embracingreality says:

    @PathfinderLight:

    “I think I’m a feminist.”…“Just how I feel”…

    You’re definitely being shit tested. Fail this test immediately! You should have already established yourself as the leader in the relationship. You’re the kind of Man who leads the woman you’re with, the primary decision maker or you find another woman or just go it alone. She needs to decide if she wants to be with a boy who will let her wear his pants or if she wants to be with a man. More than likely she’s trying to determine how much control she could exert over you in a marriage, if she’s willing to settle for none you *might* have a keeper. If she argues regarding your position as the leader, your dominance, authority with words like “equality” or “equal partnership” save yourself a world of hurt and walk away right damn now.

    Incidentally, “marriage” as a legally enforceable contract for a man ceased to exist decades ago. LEGAL MARRIAGE DOES NOT EXIST FOR A MAN. If your future wife decides for any reason to eject you from your family, your home, your assets she can do so on a whim and with the eager assistance of the family courts. You can be reduced to a visitor in the lives of your own children with no guarantee- every other weekend visitation. You will be thrown out of your own home. You will lose most of your financial assets. You will pay child support and likely alimony. All of this will be enforced, if necessary, at gunpoint and failure to comply may mean imprisonment. All of the above could be true even if your ex-wife committed adultery during the marriage and you did not. Marriage to “I think I’m a feminist”? Pal, you better read this again and think very, very carefully. You may just save your life.

  71. embracingreality says:

    *Legally enforceable marriage does not exist for a man*

  72. Bob says:

    @Pathfinder – Instead of being properly groomed since childhood to appreciate both what men and women separately bring to a relationship (and family as they become parents), it sounds like she has grown up without this guidance and instead envies what men bring, despises what women bring, or both. While not a completely hopeless situation, she sounds like she would be a very difficult fixer-upper. Compared to another girl out there who hasn’t been so tainted or isn’t as far off a healthy path, is she personally worth the time, energy, and emotional investment to be cultivated into someone worth marrying? Only you know her well enough to properly assess her pros, cons, and long-term potential. Men are fantastic at weighing cost VS reward analysis, show us what you’ve got!

    “Also, what is the best way of showing a feminist her views are wrong?” Ahahaha this is certainly a question for the ages. They tend to completely disregard any sort of empirical evidence like how poorly children of single mothers do, partly because they can’t objectively accept that the numbers are saying something they emotionally don’t want to be true, but also because they are approaching it from the position of “you can make numbers say anything you want them to.” which is not the proper framework to gain any sort of understanding.

    One of the things that may have some effect are working with her set of premises that she is likely operating on:
    1)Feminists are strong, independent women.
    2)Strong, independent women are attractive (projection of desired male attributes)
    3)I am attractive.
    Thus:
    4)I am a feminist.

    And further:
    5)Pathfinder is a quality man.
    6)Pathfinder likes me
    7)I am a strong, independent woman
    Thus:
    8)Quality men like strong, independent women. Being a feminist not only feels right, but it makes me more attractive – it MUST be correct.

    You will have to emphasize how the things you like about her run completely counter to what feminism is. While maintaining the frame that you are a quality man you will need to qualify that you are not attracted to feminists. Dalrock has a really good post about why feminism is ugly – because feminists are misery with everything that can be considered love. https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/feminists-are-ugly/
    You can probably quote some of these examples verbatim and they will be tangible concepts that she will emotionally be able to understand – cooking a meal for someone is a very loving gesture, but feminists consider doing any domestic duty offensive and demeaning. If you two are Christian, you can bring up that intentionally avoiding acts of service is ungodly (as well as unattractive). If she views you as a quality man, what you find attractive/unattractive are very powerful concepts that can help shape her.

  73. mrteebs says:

    @AR,

    An interesting experiment to perform on Tradcons: talk about “the women of Proverbs” briefly, and see if they know of any other than 31. Odds are they do not, in my admittedly limited experience, and this affords any number of opportunities for hilarity once they’ve run down the Women Are Wonderful rabbit trail for a while.

    Let’s not forget to add this one to your list:

    “The wise woman builds her house, But the foolish tears it down with her own hands.
    Proverbs 14:1

    I remember reading this as a teenager, and again many times into my 20s, 30s, and 40s. I could not conceive of this. It was like, “nobody actually does that, not women, not men. Obviously Solomon was exaggerating to make a point.”

    Amazing how the Red Pill changes everything. That it was all hidden in plain sight, right there in Proverbs and everywhere else. Witness today’s industrial-strength home wrecking that is going on, and who is doing most of the wrecking.

  74. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    How is this not child abuse? https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/09/26/babys-first-dildo-courtesy-of-the-transgender-movement/

    I found the above link at Free Republic. Apparently, some people are selling penis prosthetics for toddlers. To help little girls, who identify as boys, experience having a penis.

    I’m in my 50s. I was a child in the 1960s. I grew up on Lost in Space and The Brady Bunch and The Partridge Family. I have seen American culture fall so far over the course of a generation. So many Americans are so trashy and sick.

  75. Looking Glass says:

    On the discussion of “how to take certain books of the Bible”, the problem a lot of people end up having with Proverbs is that some of them work just fine without the rest of the context. Others can really make little sense if you don’t have the rest of the comparatives. And it’s really bad if you only quote half of a passage.

    Most of Proverbs is written in a form of “Positive Statement, Negative Comparative”. The Wisdom Writers are sketching out what Wisdom looks like in practice. Taken with the rest of the text, you get a picture of the practical and functional parts of Wisdom. And implementing the practical aspects has worked well enough for the Jews for the last 3000 years. The fact there are still Jews around to talk about being the most impressive bit.

    I call the Wisdom texts the “blessings of Wisdom”, as if you follow them, your life is unlikely to go terribly. But the text simply isn’t the Voice of the Lord nor the indwelling of the Spirit. Those come first, but there is much to learn from the text. Which is how you actually become Wise: knowing the proper Order and Roles. Go figure!

  76. Oscar says:

    @ desiderian says:
    October 3, 2015 at 10:38 am

    “and yes, the bread of Ecclesiastes is awfully unleavened by itself.”

    People often abuse Ecclesiastes, at least in part because they don’t understand the point of the book. They don’t understand the point of the book because they don’t know Solomon’s story.

    @ Looking Glass says:
    October 4, 2015 at 3:56 am

    “And implementing the practical aspects has worked well enough for the Jews for the last 3000 years. The fact there are still Jews around to talk about being the most impressive bit.”

    The continued existence of the Jewish people is literally miraculous. No other people group has been conquered, removed from their homeland, and scattered across a foreign empire – TWICE! – and not only maintained their identity, but outlasted their conquerors and even reclaimed their homeland thousands of years after they lost it.

    But that miracle has a lot more to do with God’s faithfulness (to His promise to Abraham) than that of the Jewish people.

    “I call the Wisdom texts the “blessings of Wisdom”, as if you follow them, your life is unlikely to go terribly. But the text simply isn’t the Voice of the Lord nor the indwelling of the Spirit. Those come first, but there is much to learn from the text. Which is how you actually become Wise: knowing the proper Order and Roles. Go figure!”

    You mean that the fear of God truly is the beginning of wisdom (Psalm 111:10, Prov 1:7)? Imagine that!

  77. shadescale says:

    “People often abuse Ecclesiastes, at least in part because they don’t understand the point of the book. They don’t understand the point of the book because they don’t know Solomon’s story. ”

    I’m guessing they skip over the very last part of it:

    “Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”

    Ecc 12:13-14 (NIV)

  78. greyghost says:

    Let’s not forget to add this one to your list:

    “The wise woman builds her house, But the foolish tears it down with her own hands.”
    Proverbs 14:1

    I remember reading this as a teenager, and again many times into my 20s, 30s, and 40s. I could not conceive of this. It was like, “nobody actually does that, not women, not men. Obviously Solomon was exaggerating to make a point.”

    Amazing how the Red Pill changes everything. That it was all hidden in plain sight, right there in Proverbs and everywhere else. Witness today’s industrial-strength home wrecking that is going on, and who is doing most of the wrecking.

    The red pill. Every church should get some. Christian men with game imagine that.
    Think of a marquee at a church “We have the red pill here” “guest speaker at the Wed. Fellowship Chateau Heartiste”

  79. @ greyghost, Think of a marquee at a church “We have the red pill here” “guest speaker at the Wed. Fellowship Chateau Heartiste”

    I imagine having to cross a picket line to enter that Church.

  80. Dalrock says:

    @Crowhill

    IOW, he was looking for trouble, and he found it. He didn’t have the sense to know the consequences.

    Indeed. He wasn’t innocent, he lacked understanding.

    @Cane Caldo

    @asdgamer

    I see that you didn’t get the notes. The husband is in it with the wife. She’s the lure. Hubby’s hidden, which is why you never see him there. It’s implied. Yeah, women never lie. The husband’s on a business trip. Except he isn’t. The sap ends up dead.

    In my good ear?

    I’m pretty sure what he was trying to say was that the wages of sin is death, as well as the fact that the punishment for a man who had sex with another man’s wife was death.

  81. That might make a good litmus test Church attendance. If it were located in Toronto would it have a picket line in front of it every Saturday morning?

  82. In case anyone takes me for a Seventh Day Adventist, I meant Sunday….

  83. Boxer says:

    Dear Brad A:

    I can see why logical arguments are useless in that case. They do not listen to logic, thus only rhetoric will work.

    True enough, my brother. I like to argue and don’t mind people who disagree with me, but with feminists, you never get salient points or even well-thought opinion. It’s inevitably a gaggle of idiots trying to sexualize and personalize the debate.

    I say troll em hard. It’s all they understand.

    Boxer

  84. sigh
    why don’t most Christians see the truth?!!

    I had a conversation with a complementarian
    he refused to believe women are lazy!!!

    even though by his standards a man must go to work and come home and do everything, and be the one to get up in the middle of the night
    the wife praises him for his fathering every day

    another wife, says she shows respect to her husband by complimenting him on his domestic skills which enables her to work

    see how they reverse it?

    and no one can critique them because they seem so christian and keep talking about the gospel etc…

  85. Oscar says:

    @ shadescale says:
    October 4, 2015 at 9:43 am

    “I’m guessing they skip over the very last part of it:”

    That seems like a safe bet.

    @Jonathan Charles says:
    October 4, 2015 at 1:41 pm

    “I had a conversation with a complementarian”

    Complementarian?

  86. MarcusD says:

    Out of curiosity, for those whose churches had these readings: http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/100415.cfm

    How were the homilies/sermons? (Particularly if you have an SJW for a priest/pastor)

  87. MarcusD says:

    @Boxer

    …and remember boys: No Hymen, No Diamond!
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/nohymennodiamond?f=tweets&vertical=news&src=hash

    The outrage from that is incredible. Twitter and Facebook have certainly been a source of entertainment over the last week.

  88. Coastal says:

    @Boxer

    The outrage at the #NoHymenNoDiamond hashtag is pretty telling. The women want to be able to sleep around, but don’t like the idea that it will turn marriage-minded men away.

    You also have women complaining that the men should also be virgins, ignoring the fact that male virginity isn’t generally considered attractive. Shoot, most of the insults are some form of “these men can’t get laid and/or suck in bed”.:/

  89. Reluctant Neo says:

    Verse 3 is one of the more interesting ones in Proverbs 31:

    Don’t spend your energy on women
    or your efforts on those who destroy kings.

  90. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    I’m pretty sure what he was trying to say was that the wages of sin is death, as well as the fact that the punishment for a man who had sex with another man’s wife was death.

    To be sure those statements are true, but I was sure asdgamer had said that her harlotry is only a luring act so that her husband could kill and steal from the simple youth in their house.

  91. Renee Harris says:

    @ boxer may I suggest # usevibsnovows or use vibs no view
    Those woman are dumb, sexual power does not a human being God make you a human being

  92. dvdivx says:

    Proverbs 31 Woman is nothing more than a euphemism for a carousel riding career hag that put a career ahead of having a family and probably had an abortion or two on top of that. So where’s the verse on how much fun it is to be with a frigid woman? Someone with so little sex drive you hope they cheat so you can leave. The I remember the wife of my youth because that was the last time we had sex wife or is that also the “proverbs 31 wife” to love honor and never put out.

  93. JDG says:

    dvdivx says:
    October 4, 2015 at 10:08 pm

    If you believe what you wrote then you are clueless regarding matters of Ancient Hebrew culture and scripture, so why bother to comment and reveal your ignorance?

  94. greyghost says:

    Now actually reading the proverbs linked to it is a kind way of calling out some slut chick. With todays society the only way it will have any real effect is if it is read allowed in church with mixed company as part of a sermon on men and finding a worthy wife.. I would also throw in some pop culture “no rings for sluts” and that nohymennodiamond thing was cool. Ignore the women and talk to the young men and let the female nature work for you.
    You seem to think a lot like me on this Dalrock just more biblically reference.

    JDG
    Sometimes a man doesn’t want to show how big his Christian dick is he just wants to speak to other men on how he feels.

  95. MarcusD says:

    Marriage is binding bond between man and woman, Pope Francis asserts
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/marriage-is-binding-bond-between-man-and-woman-pope-francis-asserts-31580708.html

    He insisted the church cannot be “swayed by passing fads or popular opinion”.

  96. dvdivx says:

    “If you believe what you wrote then you are clueless regarding matters of Ancient Hebrew culture and scripture, so why bother to comment and reveal your ignorance?”

    Maybe you are still living in the distant past. Try learning about churchianity sometimes it might help if you live in the modern culture here.

  97. dvdivx says:

    Or it could be that you actually think modern women are taking that proverb literally and learning about the value of agricultural land and vineyards I’ll leave out the part about making your own linens, really good luck finding that.

  98. scientivore says:

    @Coastal: The outrage at the #NoHymenNoDiamond hashtag is pretty telling.

    It’s triply telling. They’re greedy, they’re ashamed of being sluts, and they’re dumb enough to be trolled by guys with nothing better to do.

    You also have women complaining that the men should also be virgins, ignoring the fact that male virginity isn’t generally considered attractive.

    You’re understating the case. Male virginity is the opposite of sexy. It’s nuclear uggo. Women absolutely hate men that have not been loved by other women. Our priorities could not be more different.

  99. JDG says:

    dvdivx and greyghost,

    I see that I misunderstood dvdivx’s comment. He wasn’t knocking scripture but the misuse of it. My bad and my apologies. I’ll put my thingamabob away now.

  100. Hank Flanders says:

    scientivore

    You’re understating the case. Male virginity is the opposite of sexy. It’s nuclear uggo. Women absolutely hate men that have not been loved by other women. Our priorities could not be more different.

    It’s interesting you should mention that. Yesterday, I noticed that on that NoHyemNoDiamond facebook page that some female commenters had tried to reverse the non-virginity in women analogies by trying to apply them to male non-virginity, as if women really see male non-virgins as used up popsicles and male virgins (like me) like fresh, unopened popsicles. This was followed by, “See, it works both ways.” When I read those comments, I was thinking, ‘So women will value male virginity if men value female virginity? Deal.’ Of course, it doesn’t work that way, unfortunately.

  101. Hank Flanders says:

    Coastal

    You also have women complaining that the men should also be virgins, ignoring the fact that male virginity isn’t generally considered attractive. Shoot, most of the insults are some form of “these men can’t get laid and/or suck in bed”.

    Yeah, there’s either “You just want a virgin, because you’re a loser who can’t get laid” or “You’re a hypocrite, because you want a virgin, but you’re not one, too,” so it doesn’t really matter what a man is. He’s just bad either way.

  102. mikediver5 says:

    HF is getting with the feminist program now. It has always been one that meant that what ever a man did or didn’t do he was wrong.

  103. dvdivx says:

    No hard feelings. It should be more upsetting the church allows or even participates in such deliberate misinterpretations then women misusing the bible to try to cover their sins.

  104. JDG says:

    That churches and clergy do this IS more than upsetting. It breaks my heart. I look around at the society we live in and can hardly believe what I see. It is vastly different than the one I grew up in (which was terrible, but magnitudes better than this one).

  105. RichardP says:

    Re. the P31 woman whose husband sat at the city gates – for those who may not know:

    With ancient cities that were surrounded by a wall and entered by a gate – sometimes various functions having to do with governing the city were housed at a main gate. See the second paragraph of the “Overview” section of the first link for a quick example. The second link is more general, but also more detailed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra
    http://gradworks.umi.com/35/11/3511940.html

    It is possible (probable?) that the P31 woman was the wife of a man involved in running the city in some way, and that is why he sat at the city gate while his wife otherwise occupied herself at home. She was probably already a woman of note for such a man to have married her in the first place. Bringing honor to a man who was already thought highly-enough of to be involved in city governance was a significant accomplishment for her, but one she was perhaps trained for. If the P31 woman truely was not “everywoman” to start with, then it is not realistic to expect that her accomplishments can be duplicated by the average woman of today. The P31 woman’s accomplishments seem reserved only for those women who have been raised / trained in a manner similar to how the P31 woman was raised / trained. If true, then the parents and granparents share in the praise reserved for the accomplishments of the P31 woman. Without the right parents / grandparents, it is probably rare that a P31 woman would / could emerge.

  106. JF says:

    Note: Copyright, Thomas Nelson.
    Not God.

  107. Pingback: This Week in Reaction (2015/10/04) | The Reactivity Place

  108. Kevin says:

    Did someone say girls night out?

    http://nypost.com/2015/10/05/half-naked-doctor-left-unconscious-in-doorway-after-visiting-friend/

    Lets see – very pretty girl marries straight arrow boring husband (also doctor) they get divorced (who knows why but we can speculate) and she leaves her 3 children at home to go party with the girls. Great examples in motherhood.

    #nohymannodiamond has a pleasant sing-songy sound but is otherwise not great because with so many girls in sports even virgins will no longer be intact. #noringsforsluts is even better because it puts the focus not on meaningless anatomy but behavior. But the reaction to the former is pretty funny.

    Back to proverbs – its amazing that we live in a Christian culture that refuses to acknowledge women who are agents of sin who will tempt men to go down the path with them. We all know men do that (don’t we) but women – nah never.

  109. Kevin says:

    God thinks male non-virgins suck whether or not they are sexy.

    My guess is they also have increased rate of divorce but not comparable to women. Gods ideal of chastity before marriage exists for a reason.

    Male virginity is under rated. While it may or may not be “sexy”, women thinking about marriage with the tingles are as dumb as men thinking about marriage based on their tingles. Chastity is a highly desirable MARRIAGE quality for both partners (in the HPV cancer era, women should definitely think twice about marrying a cad).

  110. nick012000 says:

    >http://nypost.com/2015/10/05/half-naked-doctor-left-unconscious-in-doorway-after-visiting-friend/

    >“She also told me she doesn’t believe he was selling drugs. She said, ‘If he’s a drug dealer, why don’t I have better shoes?’ ”

    LOL. So typically female.

  111. jonakc1 says:

    you mean the complementarian churches?

    I am just waiting for the CBMW/TGC pastors to come out with articles saying how Matt Damon submitting to Jessica Chastain in the Martian
    is a beautiful portrayal of God’s plan for gender…

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