She’s been groomed her whole life for this con.

On Saturday the New York Times warned of the problem of elderly women being conned on dating sites in Swindlers Target Older Women on Dating Websites.  They lead with a widow and church secretary in her 70s who fell for such a scammer.  Of course, her online dream man was looking for someone just like her, a woman 20-30 years older than him who was “confident” and “outspoken” and wanted to travel to Italy.

[he] described himself as a middle-aged German businessman looking for someone “confident” and “outspoken” to travel with him to places like Italy, his “dream destination.”

While the NYT is doing a service by warning of the scams, it is important to remember that the media itself has been grooming these women their entire lives to believe such scams.  It has convinced them that their advanced age is sexy to men in their prime, and that their romantic options are abundant should they only take the plunge and let the desperate studs compete for their attention.

The same media has also taught these women that their cliché feminist personalities are both attractive and rare, something a successful middle aged businessman would be lucky to ever find.  The reality is the exact opposite.  It wasn’t just the scammers telling these women the lies they wanted to hear.  The media has been doing this their whole lives.

This entry was posted in Ageing Feminists, New York Times, Online Scammers. Bookmark the permalink.

259 Responses to She’s been groomed her whole life for this con.

  1. DeNihilist says:

    There ya go Jessica V. You’re too young to be getting the catcalls you so value!

  2. Casey says:

    1st comment 🙂

    Unfortunate that the media has been complicit in grooming women to fall for this charade.

  3. thedeti says:

    “widow and church secretary in her 70s”

    Looks like you finally found your “79-year-old knockout”.

    I lol every time I think about that idiotic comment. THat’s probably buried somewhere on the “Are Women Done with Men After Age 55?” thread, which I see is still a “Top Post” on this site, as is “Advice to a Woman in her 30s looking to marry”.

    Both of those threads tell me where we are sexually and socially as a society.

  4. thedeti says:

    Here it is. It is on Women Done after 55:

    “Sorry, but looks do matter to women. I also disagree that men age better than women. At least not the women I know. Meanwhile, these are not “frat boys” these women acquaintances and friends of mine are dating. These are guys close to them in age (in some case a few years younger), and these guys are successful, without exception. So they’re not looking for “sugar mamas.” Case in point, my mom has a widowed friend who is 79, is a complete knockout (she goes to a gym six days a week) and is about to marry a doctor. They have known each other since they were teenagers and he always had a crush on her, which did not diminish with her age. It certainly seems to bother you that some women actually have not been put out to pasture, and refuse to see themselves as “washed up” and undesirable. As I said earlier, how you see yourself determines how the world sees you, regardless of your age, looks or gender. So sorry if I don’t buy into your ageist, misogynistic BS. P.S. – There are worse fates than winding up with a cat. It beats winding up with some loser guy.”

  5. MarcusD says:

    Questions concerning “Lust” within a marriage
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=970284

    Support During Annullment Process
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=970278

    How do I embrace being a man? (…)
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=970313

  6. thedeti says:

    @ Marcus:

    I like your CF posts because they show just how far down the toilet we are and just how little men seem to get about sex and marriage.

    From the “Lust within a marriage” post;

    “This may be the wrong place to post this, not sure.

    “This morning, while getting ready for work, I noticed my wife getting undressed and hopping into the shower. No big deal. Didn’t have any impure thoughts.

    “On my way to work(30 min drive), I usually don’t listen to the radio or anything, just think about things going on. Well, the image of my wife’s naked body popped into my head. I also started thinking about being intimate with her.

    “Is this considered “Lust”? I mean, she is MY wife, not like I’m thinking about a co-worker or an actress.Maybe I’m confused with the definition. I dunno!”
    _______________________

    WTF. Men who think sexually desiring their wives is “lust” and is “bad” and “sinful” and “evil”. It’s no wonder at all that women are sexually unattracted to these men. No wonder at all that these men have difficulty in their marriages. No wonder at all these women frivorce them. No wonder at all that these men continue to fail in their marriages.

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  8. Novaseeker says:

    WTF. Men who think sexually desiring their wives is “lust” and is “bad” and “sinful” and “evil”. It’s no wonder at all that women are sexually unattracted to these men. No wonder at all that these men have difficulty in their marriages. No wonder at all these women frivorce them. No wonder at all that these men continue to fail in their marriages.

    He’s being foolish and displaying his lack of catechesis. The Catholics do not teach that a man looking at his wife with sexual desire commits the sin of lust — not in the least. I’m not sure where he learned that, but it wasn’t proper catechesis wherever he may have done so.

  9. Hey Dalrockasz!!! Happy summersz!! Sorry I haven’t been aorund so much but in summer times da gbfm is mostly on da beach with da bee-aches, and on da bee-aches with da beach zllzzozolzolzlozoolzozl. i’m sorry 2 see dat boxer was unable to save marriage with a bit of dlarockain game game in da supreme court lzozozolzlolzlo, but mayebe there is hope that if y’all flock gamesz the management of planned parenthood you can stopp them from harvesting and selling littlez aborted baby parts for profit zozlzlzozzl. perhaps ibb inococenetbystsanderbostson should have gamed justice ginsuburg a bitt harder to save marriage but what is done is doensz!! at any rate god bless and have a great summersz wheever you are and have faith that perhaps a future generation will place teh spiritualz teachings of christ and moses over base bodily game zlzlzozolzozzzozlo

  10. feeriker says:

    …a widow and church secretary in her 70s…

    I wonder what “church” this woman works for/belongs to (no, I didn’t bother with reading the entire original article) that she’d leap with both feet first into a chance to “travel in sin” with a complete stranger about whom she knows absolutely nothing. I wonder if she got any pastoral advice or counseling (other than “you go, girllllllll!”) once this moronic idea entered her head.

    I’m not stupid, but I was totally naive,” [Cook] said.

    Did she REALLY say that? //*facepalm*//

    Note too the prominence of the cat in the foreground of the picture. I’m sure I’d be giving the NYT far too much undeserved credit if I said that this was an intentional subliminal message.

  11. okrahead says:

    Dirty old womyn out on the prowl for age-inappropriate sex partners whom they pay money to… Clearly they deserve to be ripped off and publicly shamed. After all, isn’t that the rule for men?

  12. feeriker says:

    Dirty old womyn out on the prowl for age-inappropriate sex partners whom they pay money to…

    Flip the sexes here and, depending on the age of the “inappropriate” mark and whether or not its a public solicitation, and the man goes to jail. Anyone wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge and bet that granny gets busted and caged under similar circumstances?

  13. Pingback: She’s been groomed her whole life for this con. | Manosphere.com

  14. hey and before da gbfm forget, some good news!!!

    da other nightz da gbfm be grinding in an eliet miamiz beach dance club in cancuun with roosh and heartistsze pickng up hottiesz and a most delightful song came on da sound systemsz!

    so for da duration of da song, da heartsietest, roosh, and GBFM ignored da ladies (just as da ladies will ignore da men) and danced with each other exlusively (though da gbfm did not get a hardon lsostas cockas). but it worked out goodz!

    for it caused massive confusion on da dance floor and panic in da disco, and berofe da song was over, all da hottest girls were grinding on da gbfm, roosh, and hearteitest, both front and back and side, above and below, as da gbfm has not enough cockas for all da pussy thrown at himsz, and even with heartsietsst and rosshes masivees lostsas cockas, its still not enoughtz!

    so when all you churchaisn get done with your dalrokianz game lessons, come join in and help out with yoru lostsas cockasz down in miamaize!!! dalrock can show you the door, but you must be the one to walk through it! zlololzlzlzlzozlz

  15. DeNihilist says:

    Deti, right now whenever the wife gives me the crotch tingles, I comment on something she is wearing and end by saying, “Boner approved”.

    She loves it!

    If there are really guys walking this planet that think that lustful thoughts of their wives is forbidden, then we are truly lost as a species!

  16. DeNihilist says:

    THF – “I bet almost all of the victims were women, and almost all of those were frivorce initiators, and almost all lost all of their liquid cash, with the losses being capped not by them wising up, but by running out of ill-gotten cash and prizes.”

    my cult calls that karma!

  17. DeNihilist says:

    GBFM, I watch your vid every time you post it, every time it brings a different emotion and perspective of the world as we know it. Today it brought nostalgia.

    Thanks for sharing.

  18. Thanks DeNihilist! Yah, da other night da GBFM was driving down a lonely americanz highway scanning FM Stations. I finally found one that barely came in and it was a CLASSIC ROCK StatationZ!! And they played da ONe Cockas Rule in between Boston’s “more than a feeling” and brian adam’s “The summer of 69!”

    der is nothing like driving down a dark destert highway and hearing three of the greatest songs ever penned right in a row! its enough to make one believez!!

    and den da radio signal faded away and was overlapped and replaced by a christian rock station which was mostly da same but the word “Jesus” was subsituted for da name of da love interest lzoozlzlozlozloz, so instead of “Come on Eileen,” it becames”Come on Jesus.” lzozozloolzoz

  19. Dalrock says:

    @freeriker

    Note too the prominence of the cat in the foreground of the picture.

    The picture of the cat with the wide eyes (looking shocked) over the claim “I’m not stupid” is what caused my wife to show me the article. It looks like the cat knew better all along. Hilarious.

    @TFH

    The NYT also made no mention of how this woman is living alone at that age, with so much cash. The frivorce she triggered are the only reason she has that sort of money, and what is acquired easily is lost more easily, as we have seen here.

    They say she was a widow, so this doesn’t appear to be a case of cash and prizes.

    @GBFM
    Good to know you are doing ok. You really took Bernanke’s stepping down hard. I noticed that you still can’t bring yourself to name his replacement. Hang in there. It will get better with time. In the meantime, I have something that I know will cheer you up from Salon:

    The night so far has been perfect. We’ve just come back from a party. The champagne arrives from room service in a silver bucket. Liam hands me a glass. His piercing green eyes and jet-black hair are striking against his white tux. He motions for me to sit next to him on the bed. “I want to ask you something,” he says. My heart is pounding as I stare at the twinkling Manhattan skyline.

    I stick my hand under the pillow, because I always imagined that when a man proposed, he’d hide the velvet box there, like an adult version of the tooth fairy. But there’s nothing under the pillow. It’s probably in his pocket. I sip my champagne and try to calm down.

    That’s when Liam whispers, “Tonight, I want to do it up the butt.”

    At the risk of ruining the surprise, after she get’s buthexed and bernankefied she goes on to marry another man and then of course write all about her experience with other men.

  20. Novaseeker says:

    she goes on to marry another man and then of course write all about her experience with other men.

    And you can bet your bottom dollar, pardon the pun, that hub was denied the access that was given to “Liam”.

  21. Yes sir, nothing is sexier than confidence. Just the other day I was thinking “look at the confidence on Kate Upton!”

  22. feeriker says:

    “Boner approved”

    You really should copyright that, because I’m about to steal the hell out of it!

  23. hey heartsistest!!!

    thanks for da happy fairy tale with da happy happy endnningz!!

    if liam had never eberbankkified her and ditched her, da GBFM would have never met his wifez!!!! lzlzlzzozozlzozlzzo

    once upon a time brave men fought over helen of troy
    today they wiat in line for yellenized goylzozzolzzolozo,

    lozozoozozo

  24. oops i menat thanks dalrockas!!!! sometimes i gets everyones confusedz lzozoozo dummyie me

  25. Opus says:

    I think you are all being very cruel. Well enjoy yourselves if you must. Personally (as we did it last week in the Cathedral at Choral Evensong) I am reminded of The widow who gave away her last mite. Christians scamming elderly widows out of their entire wealth. Shame on you. It is true is it not; Christians always asking for money and the gospel even approves of this – well Mark and Luke do.

    People want love and as we know from The Magic Flute people will fall in love with a picture. Men do this too you know, indeed all those singing the praIses of Thai and former-Soviet Mail Order Brides are also going to be conned – through your courts.

    That cat has a WTF look in its face.

  26. Dalrock says:

    Opus,

    The picture is quite funny, but the story itself is not.

  27. Allison says:

    It’s shocking that the media would portray beat up senior citizens as sexy and desirable to young, beautiful women. Er, I mean middle aged businessmen.

  28. Allison says:

    Luckily, men never fall for that worn out scam!

  29. Yoda says:

    Just the other day I was thinking “look at the confidence on Kate Upton!”

    A double dose she does have.

  30. JDG says:

    thedeti says:
    July 21, 2015 at 11:12 am
    Here it is. It is on Women Done after 55:

    That’s the thread that came to mind as I was reading Dalrock’s post. If I remember correctly, there were several posts from females claiming that women over 55 (some held that even in their 70s) where as attractive to men as their younger selves. Also, I recall that at least a few listed things only women would be interested in as reasons why they were attractive to men.

  31. The story is becoming alarmingly common amongst aging women. These swindlers are going to have a blast when Allison comes of age!

  32. JDG says:

    Luckily, men never fall for that worn out scam!

    What’s love luck got to do with it?

  33. I can’t get past the part where she believed some businessman from Germany would ask an aging granny in America for money.. uhm, does not compute..

  34. She was probably so lonely that even if he said he was a 419 scammer from Nigeria, she would readily send him the money anyway.

  35. The Brass Cat says:

    I can’t get past the idea that a German businessman’s “dream destination” is Italy.

  36. Lol, yeah, I thought it would be a Greece island..

  37. …” Greek island”..

  38. feeriker says:

    These swindlers are going to have a blast when Allison comes of age!

    Oh, no, no, NO … she’ll never come of age; that happens to every other woman. She’ll still be banging Brad Pitt lookalikes on her 70th birthday and will NEVER have to rely on any dating web site like those other sorry loser hags. ‘Cause she’s speshul.

  39. feeriker says:

    She was probably so lonely that even if he said he was a 419 scammer from Nigeria, she would readily send him the money anyway.

    I wonder if some Nigerians looked at her profile and said “Nah … too easy.”

  40. feeriker says:

    I can’t get past the idea that a German businessman’s “dream destination” is Italy.

    Palma de Majorca, Spain (a.k.a. Deutschland Suedwest) must be full.

  41. Dalrock says:

    @Allison

    It’s shocking that the media would portray beat up senior citizens as sexy and desirable to young, beautiful women. Er, I mean middle aged businessmen.

    Make no mistake, it is a good thing that the media doesn’t lie to men the way it lies to women. Otherwise we would have NYT stories of the poor 60 something man who naively thought he had found his dream woman, a hot 30 something woman who had been searching far and wide for a man with such a distinguished beer gut.

    What is telling though is your investment in the lie. It is cruel to sell this con to women, but it is seen as “empowering” by nearly everyone.

  42. feeriker says:

    Palma de Mallorca …

  43. Crank says:

    @Allison
    Indeed they do. But we never see a wave of sympathetic articles expecting us to feel sorry for them when they do.

  44. Allison says:

    @Dalrock, I can’t always tell sarcasm in writing. Do you not know that men do indeed fall for that 30 year old woman? I read an investigative newspaper article about it ages ago, as the police were trying to get the word out, could find more with Google I’m sure. And hollywood? Do you jest? Bruce Willis and Sylvester Stallone just made an action movie, and I hope neither of them broke a hip.

  45. I have recently become a German businessman looking for an older woman who is outspoken and confident..

    Just send me a couple hundred thousand dollars to help me start up my new venture. It’s bound to be a success!

    e-mail me at German419er@gmail.com and I will send you my picture and banking details!

    Thank you for looking for love!

  46. Dalrock says:

    @Allison

    @Dalrock, I can’t always tell sarcasm in writing. Do you not know that men do indeed fall for that 30 year old woman? I read an investigative newspaper article about it ages ago, as the police were trying to get the word out, could find more with Google I’m sure. And hollywood? Do you jest? Bruce Willis and Sylvester Stallone just made an action movie, and I hope neither of them broke a hip.

    Of course men fall for similar scams. The difference is:

    1) There isn’t the same outrage when a man falls for the local stripper and she cleans him out. More specifically, there are no lectures about how he “followed his heart”. Everyone knows what he was following.

    2) The media is constantly selling women on the idea that their marriage prospects only increase with age. First this is done to sell women delaying marriage, and then it is sold to promote divorce (or at least threats thereof) by the wife. There truly are some astonishingly old action stars, but this is part Hollywood magic and part a real difference between men’s and women’s SMV relative to age. There is no men’s rights brigade forcing Hollywood to make movies with old dudes the way feminists try to coerce the studios to use older actresses as love interests. Hollywood casts these men because they draw the audience. There is also no male equivalent to Eat Pray Love, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Single in the Suburbs, the NY Post absurd article on grannies dating, etc.

  47. Allison, you forgot Arnold! How dare you!?

  48. Okrahead says:

    Kommst du hier meine lieben! Ich will machen viel kinder mit du! Hast du keine geld, meine lieben?

  49. Allison says:

    Looks like Inside Out out grossed The Expendables by almost 300% so far, per Box Office Mojo, and it isn’t even out of run yet, so I’m not seeing your argument about the box office draw of hundred year old stars of either gender. Apples vs oranges perhaps, but I don’t watch movies that much anymore. I agree with you about the weird divorce agenda, but I really don’t see this particular story about an old-as-the-hills con as being a flag for that. And who says I or the news I read wasn’t sympathetic to these old guys scammed of their life savings? I thought it was terrible, and the slant of the story was very sympathetic to a widowed old lonely guy it was about.

  50. “I can’t get past the idea that a German businessman’s “dream destination” is Italy.”
    Well Italy is on the other side of the world! No wonder a German would need hundreds of thousands of dollars to get there!

  51. DeNihilist says:

    Ferriker, use it up buddy, all my quotes are open domain, especially if they help men get some!

  52. Yoda says:

    Looks like Inside Out out grossed The Expendables by almost 300%

    Comparing against a Pixar Kiddie Movie you are?

  53. Allison says:

    Success is success. Yoda wouldn’t have said it differently.

  54. Expendables was a crap movie that depended entirely on drawing audiences due to who was acting in it, yet it still made big profits and sequels. Inside out draws on all audiences, no matter age or sex, and also includes parents having to buy tickets just to escort their children to the cinemas.

    Never watched the movie though so I cannot say if it was good or not.

    Truly is an apple vs oranges comparison.

  55. Give her the tingles we must!

  56. Glenfilthie says:

    Hmmmmmmm.

    Boys, I’m an old fart so I am asking this in all honesty as an old world happily married man – and not as a troll trying to be a dink:

    Could this be a societal pendulum fixing to swing back the other way? As a middle aged man – some time ago to be sure – I looked at the young ladies at the time and wanted to retch. Sure, they would do fine as a ‘pushin’ cushion’ (or a Pump N Dump in modern parlance) – but good grief, outside of the sack…most of ’em were still children! SPOILED children! There was no way on God’s green earth that if I were in that boat, that I would even CONSIDER trying to make a life with such a wife.
    In such a case…wouldn’t an older woman make more sense? There would be a little more maturity, and perhaps there is the odd divorced woman that has learned a thing or two from the experience? Maybe not a 70 year old…but what about later 40’s, maybe…?

  57. Allison says:

    Yeah, well-considered movies that appeal to a wide range of people are apples to The Expendables’ oranges fer sure. And far be it from me to argue with Rollo. What university is he out of, again?

  58. The One says:

    OT- I’m looking for some black knighting ideas for my catholic church’s annulment conference. ANy ideas?

  59. The One says:

    Allison, you can talk to your blue in the face. At the end of the day the marriage rate is in the tiolet BY MEN’S CHOICE.

    NOBODY WANTS YOUR KIND.

  60. The Brass Cat says:

    Because universities are the only acceptable source, of course.

  61. Allison says:

    TheOne, the verbal jousting of the last few comments strikes me as kind of fun, but feel free to carry on with what you were doing if you disagree.

  62. The One says:

    If only our females in the military could learn to hold the field the way you do!

  63. The One says:

    I agree with TFH. Please confirm this for us Alison by posting pics of yourself at age 23 and age 37. Let the people decide!

  64. Allison says:

    I’m saying I’m not going to debate a chart made by a random guy. And I can see you are a scholar and gentleman on the internet, but that dosn’t mean much in the real world. As I’m positive you are aware irl. Since the conversation has devolved to you telling me how I think, I believe we are done here. Do me a favor, sweetie and post my next few comments.

  65. JDG says:

    Success is success. Yoda wouldn’t have said it differently.

    You can’t speak for Yoda!!! How dare you! Back to the kitchen young woman! Those sammiches aren’t going to make themselves.

    And far be it from me to argue with Rollo.

    “Tried many have! Looked like foolish women they did.” ~ Me imitating Yoda

    What university is he out of, again?

    Yeah, because if you don’t go to one of the nations PC indoctrination centers you’re obviously not credible. /sarc

    If only our females in the military could learn to hold the field the way you do!

    I’d be content if they could at least make a decent sammich. Then at least they could be put to work doing something that didn’t make more work for the men in the military. As more and men leave the armed forces, maybe this problem will correct itself.

  66. Tilikum says:

    outSTANDING title and post.

  67. Random Angeleno says:

    @allison, who am i supposed to believe? you? or my own eyes?

    knock rollo if you must, but the chart need not be exact to do an excellent job explaining the behavioral effects we’ve seen demonstrated to us all our lives. so again, how is that chart not representative of what we’ve seen with our own eyes?

  68. So, movies are your evidence of choice?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/01/30/hollywood-women-pay-salary-men/5050433/

    Hmmm,…kinda reminds you of another graph doesn’t it?

  69. JDG says:

    Since the conversation has devolved to you telling me how I think, I believe we are done here.

    Some one struck a nerve.

    Do me a favor, sweetie and post my next few comments.

    I’m not TFH, but I’ll give it a try.

    Me – Hey Allison, where are those sammiches?

    Allison – Coming right up sweetie!

    Me – Don’t forget the spicy mustard.

    Allison – Okay!

  70. Michelle says:

    It is a shame that someone would take advantage of a lonely old widow. She should move into a senior home. She’d probably have an easier time finding a man her own age.

  71. Looks like Inside Out out grossed The Expendables by almost 300% so far, per Box Office Mojo, and it isn’t even out of run yet, so I’m not seeing your argument about the box office draw of hundred year old stars of either gender.

    How many 8 year olds do you think begged mom and dad to watch The Expendables?

    Try harder.

  72. Gunner Q says:

    Glenfilthie @ 4:26 pm:
    “In such a case…wouldn’t an older woman make more sense? There would be a little more maturity, and perhaps there is the odd divorced woman that has learned a thing or two from the experience?”

    Possibly, but this brings up both the genuine-repentance issue and whether the divorced woman is Biblically eligible for remarriage. I can see a sexless LTR working out with a late-convert ex-slut if she’s diligent about making her man happy.

  73. J N says:

    @Gunner Q

    The Bible calls for widows under the age of 60 to be remarried. Given there are plenty of godly (and attractive) widows out there, some of them with kids, godly men should be focused on marriage with those women first, before paying attention to some late-convert ex-slattern.

  74. J N says:

    @Michelle

    The idea of anyone taking financial advantage of the widows I know is laughable. They either have a big family with kids/grandkids looking out for them, or else if they never got married, they have nephews, brothers, and so on. And they’ve lived their whole lives knowing it’s wrong to date a guy you don’t plan to marry, and they know it’s wrong to marry a guy who’s not of like precious faith.

    They’re innoculated against this sort of scam.

  75. feeriker says:

    In such a case…wouldn’t an older woman make more sense? There would be a little more maturity, and perhaps there is the odd divorced woman that has learned a thing or two from the experience? Maybe not a 70 year old…but what about later 40’s, maybe…?

    Glen, I used to think so, but then I stopped to consider the generational demographics of such women and it just makes no sense. A 40-something woman from North America today is still a Gen-Xer, a group that can only be viewed as slightly less bitchy, entitled, and solipsistic than their millennial successors – and in every bit as much of a state of arrested development. Heck, even the Boomer generation of women is largely useless, second wave feminism having been in its ascendancy when they came of age and having corrupted most of them early on. To find a generation of women that even hints at traditional female virtues, you would almost HAVE to look at the “70 and older” demographic -which obviously isn’t an option.

    In short, any way you look at it you lose (apologies to Simon and Garfunkel).

  76. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    I’m not stupid, but I was totally naive,” [Cook] said.

    Women find it more difficult than do men to admit their intellectual shortcomings. The female ego is more fragile, contrary to what feminists say.

    Marketing people know this. Back in the 1980s, there was a bestseller called Smart Women, Foolish Choices.

    The book asked, why do so many smart women pick the wrong guy? The obvious answer is that these women aren’t all that smart. But no, says the book, that’s too simplistic. We know these women are smart. But smart women are so complex.

    The book’s title played to the female ego. It assured women that though they make a lot of dumb-ass life choices, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t awesomely smart.

  77. l jess says:

    Depending on the 40’s woman – most are still heavily in debt, Have ridden the cock carousel for years, Took a gender studies course in University, Are arrogant and self entitled. Are Feminists – I dare say that takes the numbers down a great deal

  78. feeriker says:

    Women find it more difficult than do men to admit their intellectual shortcomings. The female ego is more fragile, contrary to what feminists say.

    Yep.

    One of the things I realized quickly after first swallowing the RP is that women never, EVER admit to doing anything wrong or apologize/humble themselves in contrition. NOT EVER.

    As with their inability to grasp Cause and Effect (C&E), it’s a programming issue. They are not designed to autonomously recognize, discern, and regulate their own behavior in accordance with any moral absolutes. They require the aid of a related but external entity (i.e., men) to do this. This is not to say that women don’t have moral agency; they do. Rather, it is a weak and underdeveloped attribute, one that requires male stewardship. This has been understood throughout most of human history and in all cultures, which explains why women’s behavior was tightly controlled within any society that perpetuated itself for any length of time.

  79. Julian O'Dea says:

    The idea that a German businessman would want to have an “outspoken” American woman as his companion is hilarious.

  80. Julian O'Dea says:

    Novaseeker:

    “He’s being foolish and displaying his lack of catechesis. The Catholics do not teach that a man looking at his wife with sexual desire commits the sin of lust — not in the least. I’m not sure where he learned that, but it wasn’t proper catechesis wherever he may have done so.”

    Some of this kind of thinking is unfortunately creeping into the church, and quite a few Catholic “church ladies” will try this on in places like comment sections for example, especially I suspect the less attractive ones.

    It seems to be based in part on some of the late John Paul II’s less happy bits of theologising.

    I have never been quite sure how a man is supposed to have sex with his wife, Catholic or otherwise, without feeling sexual desire.

  81. Julian O'Dea says:

    “On my way to work(30 min drive), I usually don’t listen to the radio or anything, just think about things going on. Well, the image of my wife’s naked body popped into my head. I also started thinking about being intimate with her.

    “Is this considered “Lust”? I mean, she is MY wife, not like I’m thinking about a co-worker or an actress.Maybe I’m confused with the definition. I dunno!”

    To which the appropriate response is, no, you moron. (I wonder if that clueless question might have been trolling though. You could have a lot of fun on some of these sites.)

    Ned Flanders on The Simpsons used to worry about lusting after his wife. It was meant to be a joke. Men who think like that in the real world make me wonder at the depths to which some modern men have sunk. Imagine being that numpty’s wife.

  82. Julian O'Dea says:

    feeriker:

    “They are not designed to autonomously recognize, discern, and regulate their own behavior in accordance with any moral absolutes. They require the aid of a related but external entity (i.e., men) to do this. This is not to say that women don’t have moral agency; they do. Rather, it is a weak and underdeveloped attribute, one that requires male stewardship. This has been understood throughout most of human history and in all cultures, which explains why women’s behavior was tightly controlled within any society that perpetuated itself for any length of time.”

    Absolutely correct. The evidence for this grows every day. As I like to say, “women are great – in their place within a masculine system of authority.”

  83. feeriker says:

    The idea that a German businessman would want to have an “outspoken” American woman as his companion is hilarious.

    Yep. He can get at home all the nasty, sexless frigidity he wants. He doesn’t need to import any, unless he’s a masochist who thinks that “bitch” comes in distinct flavors by geography.

    Anyone seriously entertaining the idea that there’s any international market for relationships with American women has invented a whole new strain of delusion.

  84. JDG says:

    “As I like to say, women are great – in their place within a masculine system of authority.”

    Yep! I like to say a sammich a day keeps the hamster at bay.

  85. Julian O'Dea says:

    ” This is not to say that women don’t have moral agency; they do. Rather, it is a weak and underdeveloped attribute, one that requires male stewardship. ”

    An excellent example of this is afforded by comparing Catholic nuns from the time when they were properly under masculine church authority to the more recent time when they became more autonomous.

  86. Julian O'Dea says:

    St Thomas Aquinas, 1225-1274,

    ” In addition to the testimony of Scripture and biology, Aquinas probably took female intellectual inferiority to be plain enough from experience. He points out, for example, that shysters prey on widows in preference to men because “men are wiser and more discerning, and not so quickly taken in.” ”

    http://www.firstthings.com/article/1999/12/what-aquinas-really-said-about-women

  87. J N says:

    @Julian O’Dea

    The core issue here with the man who feels guilty for “lusting” after his wife is that he has been told his sexuality’s only purpose is to please his wife. Thus, any exercise of it that is not explictly approved by his wife feels “wrong” to him.

    The reverse should be true: a man should identify what is improper lust / covetousness / jealousy, not do those things, and then everything else is fair game. He should be the one guiding his wife into proper sexual expression, not her guiding him.

    Regarding Catholic lay religious, indeed – back in my more-foolish days, I was a fellow Rainbow Educator with women of various religious orders. Complete lack of submission to either Christ’s teachings, or the church’s.

    Interestingly, the old religious orders are dying off for lack of new, young members. The few conservative religious orders left are the only ones getting any young women to join. The world will look very, very different in the next 20 – 30 years.

  88. Julian O'Dea says:

    JN:

    “He should be the one guiding his wife into proper sexual expression, not her guiding him.”

    Naturally. “The woman was made for the man.”

  89. GeminiXcX says:

    J N on July 21, 2015 at 10:23 pm
    @Julian O’Dea

    The core issue here with the man who feels guilty for “lusting” after his wife is that he has been told his sexuality’s only purpose is to please his wife. Thus, any exercise of it that is not explictly approved by his wife feels “wrong” to him.

    I thought the problem was that sexuality was only supposed to be for procreation, not recreation. The Catholic stance against artificial birth-control being one of the main pieces of evidence for this. (Or has that been modified?)

    -GXcX

  90. DeNihilist says:

    GXcX, yep the 2 times I had sex with my wife we procreated!

    This comment is Boner Certified (TM)

  91. GeminiXcX says:

    But Eva Ross, of DKC, Match.com’s public relations agency, said the site *asks users to pledge “never to send money or share financial information with other Match users”* and “to report anyone who asks me for money or my financial information.”

    Anndddd, people don’t listen, it seems. Epic fail.

    -GXcX

  92. GeminiXcX says:

    “Boner Certified”
    That is one bonafide comment, DeN.

    Or is that bonerfied ?!?

    -GLC

  93. Oscar says:

    “To be honest, I think you’ll find that the woman who is saying that (the roles have dried up) is the woman who at 40, 45, 48, still wants to play the ingénue and can’t understand why she’s not being cast as the 21-year-old.” ~ Russell Crowe

    Maximus gets it.

  94. Julian O'Dea says:

    GeminiXcX

    Not really. The general view seems to be that married sex is both procreative and unitive.

    Any act should be consistent with both those aims. Which is one reason why in vitro fertilisation is not permissible. Nor is sex with artificial birth control. In the former case, there is no unitive aspect. In the latter, no procreative element.

    Unitive implies the normal organs and a man and a woman. Which is why homosexual acts (or for that matter anal sex involving a woman) are not acceptable.

    Nor is a blowjob, although there is a grey area with oral stimulation (fellatio) prior to vaginal sex.

    Unitive seems reasonably to imply mutual enjoyment. Pope John Paul II wrote something about husbands not “lusting after” their wives. My response would be, that was his personal teaching only, and not in the infallible mode for Catholics; and it rather depends what you mean by lust. There seems to be a teaching (echoed even in the current catechism) that “inordinate” desire for sexual pleasure can be wrong.

    It is important to understand these teachings in context. For example, a honeymooning couple going at it like bunnies would not I imagine be “inordinate”. Maybe taking a lot of viagra and trying to do the same in your sixties could be. Perhaps.

    Another illustrative case is the question of male authority in marriage. Some recent popes (not all) have warned against “machismo”, which I take to mean excessively domineering attitudes by husbands. However a reasonable and legitimate authority would presumably still be appropriate.

    The headship of the husband is a given. How it is exercised in the case of individual couples may vary. I suspect that there is too much emphasis on leadership as service in parts of the West today. Service is certainly part of Christian relationships. The pope himself is sometimes styled “the servant of the people of Christ”. Servant he may be, but he still has authority within the Catholic communion.

  95. GeminiXcX says:

    Most victims say they are embarrassed to admit what happened, and they fear that revealing it will bring derision from their family and friends, who will question their judgment and even their ability to handle their own financial affairs.

    And rightfully so.
    ………….
    Damn, all this boner and procreation talk caused me to somehow accidentally engage auto-correct and sign my last post as GLC. You Dalrockian boys are bringing too many bad thoughts to my mind. I need to exit now, and allow myself time to cool off.

    To conclude, [American] women are being approached by potential suitors in the real world all the time. The fact that they’re even ‘dating’ online speaks volumes to me.

    And, fundamentalist religions do seem to have hang-ups about even married couples actually enjoying one another in the sack.

    Goodnight.

    -GXcX™

  96. Julian O'Dea says:

    FWIW, I discuss the influence of ageing on one actress here at my post on Carolyn Farina:

    https://davidcollard.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/what-happened-to-carolyn-farina/

    My conclusion is that her career died mainly because she began too late, at about 26.

  97. Oscar says:

    Maggie Gyllenhaal wasn’t all that attractive when she was 20, much less now at 37. That’s probably why she didn’t get the role she wanted. Now, if she looked like Sofia Vergara (43 yo)…

  98. “Maximus gets it.”

    Yes he does. After all, lots of people said he was too old to play Robin Hood, in our war on women world that only criticizes actresses, never actors.

  99. GeminiXcX says:

    @Julian
    Your comment just appeared; appreciate the input. I have a query, though, if I may.

    Not really. The general view seems to be that married sex is both procreative and unitive.

    Any act should be consistent with *both* those aims.

    Why is this?

    Note: It’s getting late; I have to exit for tonight, so I’ll see your response tomorrow.

    Goodnight, Sir.

    -GXcX

  100. embracingreality says:

    Women, never more gullible than to their own lies.

  101. Oscar says:

    @ GeminiXcX says:
    July 21, 2015 at 11:13 pm

    “And, fundamentalist religions do seem to have hang-ups about even married couples actually enjoying one another in the sack.”

    It’s unfortunately true that many religious folk tend toward prudishness, even in marriage, but if they do, they’re not very fundamentalist (i.e., someone who adheres to the foundational doctrines of the faith).

    It is a foundational doctrine of Christianity that the Bible is God’s word.

    If the Bible is God’s word, it stands to reason that God included in it the subjects He deems important.

    It therefore stands to reason that if the Bible devotes an entire book to a single subject, that subject is very important to God.

    The Bible devotes the entire book called “The Song of Solomon” to the subject of erotic love between a man and his wife.

    It therefore stands to reason that erotic love between spouses is important to God, sanctioned by God and – in fact – something God designed to be a big part of marriage.

    As if that wasn’t enough, God scattered pearls of wisdom concerning erotic love in marriage throughout both testaments. One has to work pretty diligently to avoid them while reading the Bible and remain mired in prudishness. That’s not very fundamental.

  102. Julian O'Dea says:

    Oscar, good point about The Song of Solomon.

    Prudishness and Jansenism are always liable to arise.

    Errors never die. They tend to be recycled over time.

    Some of this religious prudishness is part of a feminist reaction to the brief relaxation of “puritanical” attitudes that began in the late 1960s. There is nothing worse than the unholy alliance between secular feminism and some strains of Christianity. It is a real double whammy for some men.

    The other thing that peeves me is that I strongly suspect that some of these nuffs-nuffs are men who are busy not “lusting after” wives whose pre-marital exploits would make Caligula blush.

  103. MarcusD says:

    I can’t get past the idea that a German businessman’s “dream destination” is Italy.

    Well, maybe he feels it’s too soon to say “Britain.”

  104. @Julian O’Dea: There is NO scripture you can produce that demands a procreative and a unitive function in sex. It never ceases to amaze me the torture that some interpreters put on scripture. Paul was celibate and he suggested several times that serving God all the time was preferable. You know what he did NOT say? He did not write anything you claim.

    Jesus did not say anything resembling what you claim about sexuality. There is NO scripture on fertility treatments. There does appear to be some scripture on abortion (he knitted me in my mother’s womb before I was born- not to mention the annunciation) but there is NOTHING with the rules on sex the RCC created. These rules were fabricated completely out of thin air largely by a group of celibate monks and clergy centuries after scripture was encoded.

    The RCC has substituted the ascetic life in place of the family patriarch as the aspirational model and this has helped destroy the Western family.

    Worse, these rules were significantly modified as recently as the 1960’s almost solely to serve the feminine imperative- except for abortion and they gave up almost everything else to keep that one.

  105. Julian O'Dea says:

    Bluepillprofessor

    You are free to believe whatever you like. I am simply giving the Catholic position, which depends on Tradition as well as scripture. As you know, the Catholic Church does not rely solely on scripture.

    I am not sure what you mean by “gave up almost everything else”. That has me curious.

    I don’t want to get into religious debates here, because it is not the place for it. I generally only raise these issues when they come up in the course of the more general discussion.

    Perhaps I can reply to GeminiXcX as well here, at least initially, by saying that the unitive and procreative ideas are probably based on Catholic concepts of natural law, which I suppose depend on the apparent function of God’s creation in making men and women physically as He did.

    However, to repeat, I am not interested in trying to argue apologetics here. I am not the person to do it and this is not the place. I am simply giving what I understand to be the Catholic position.

  106. Isa says:

    @Julian O’Dea

    It seems to me that lust is merely sexual desire without a proper outlet. So deliberately fantasizing about someone you can’t licitly have sex with pretty darn soon and getting yourself worked up… isn’t wise. Ditto p0rn or t1tt1e bars. However, if people never had any sexual thoughts, that really means they have a problem and are maladapted (i.e. asexual)

  107. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    Yet another manufactured crisis — most philosophy professors are men: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1581280.ece

  108. Julian O'Dea says:

    Quite right, Isa.

    Red Pill Latecomer, that is one of those issues where nobody will mention the elephant in the room.

  109. Red Pill Latecomer says:

    The article suggests that one reason most philosophers are men is because of the field’s critically combative nature. The article suggests that philosophers should instead play nice, to attract more “talented women.”

    “One thing that distinguishes academic philosophy from nearly all other disciplines is its adversarial style. To deliver a paper is to suffer an ordeal by criticism. When I started philosophy, no holds were barred. If you thought a speaker had erred, you were encouraged to persist with your questions until he (it was rarely she) knuckled under. … This gladiatorial element is a challenge for many young philosophers, but it seems to put more women off than it does men. … A spirit of mutual exploration rather than animosity would serve philosophy just as well, and might have the added virtue of keeping talented women in the subject.”

  110. Julian O'Dea says:

    Red Pill Latecomer

    There may be something in that complaint about philosophy, but what nobody will ever admit, if they want to remain persona grata in academia, is that women may simply not be as good at or as interested in logical argument.

    Something which is common to Judaic, Christian and Islamic traditions is complex argumentation based on sacred texts. Boys have always excelled at this. The fact that this is not a big feature of modern education may help explain why boys do not find school interesting. An extra emphasis on “how do you feel?” questions and discursive rather than definitive answers in education also helps girls. There is a general tendency to regard any area in which boys naturally excel as a problem to be fixed.

    Some subjects, like philosophy and mathematics, are hard to reduce like this; and men still tend to excel. It may be partly simply an IQ thing, because these subject require very high intelligence, and most of the very high IQ people are male.

    Continental philosophy, rather than the analytical style which I assume is being discussed in the article, might appeal more to women. I must say I agree that the Anglo-American analytical style of philosophy can be pretty arid at times.

    The “gladiatorial” element may be especially bad (or good) in philosophy, but trenchant personal criticism is part of science too. I think that was part of Professor Tim Hunt’s point, that women take it a bit too personally. Of course, he got into career trouble for his pains, despite being an English Nobel laureate.

  111. Julian O'Dea says:

    Isa, the point is too that it is natural to feel sexual desire, and the proper outlet for this is one’s spouse. If people are told that this too is wrong, the end result will not be healthy for anyone.

  112. Scott says:

    Yet another area in which I used to think I was going crazy.

    Then I just started calling people out on it. A friend was looking through a gun magazine and came accross an ad with tattooed, boob-jobed, cut-off shorts wearing model holding guns with ammo belts draped over her.
    He pointed it out and said something about how he finds strong, assertive women attractive.

    There were of course, women in the room.

    I said “no you don’t. You are just saying that because you are supposed to. No normal guy thinks that but only says it because he thinks the girls will like it.

    There was the predictable eruption of indignation. Lame.

  113. Opus says:

    @Julian O’Dea

    I seem to recall that your fellow countryman the late David Stove got into trouble for his views as to one female Philosophy lecturer at the University of Sydney, who subsequently was moved to the Gender Studies department – I forget the full details. Most female philosophers seem to have just one speciality, female gentialia – does Judith Butler write in her sub-Foucault manner on anything else? There are exceptions of course, and Mary Midgley seems to be one of those exceptions.

    My observation of women in Law is the same as that of Tim Hunt observing science: women lawyers become personally offended when you suggest that something might (say) be potentially negligent. I have seen at least one female lawyer (and for no reason that I could divine) burst into tears. Half the women think you are making an unwelcome pass at them the other half are exposing themselves to you.

  114. Julian O'Dea says:

    Scott, yes, no man really finds assertive women attractive.

    OK, very few men.

    Or maybe, men find assertive women attractive if they are very cute women and the men might be going to have sex with them but not have to marry them or live with them, God forbid.

    I called a man out on this once too. In college. I also once wrote on a discussion list that I like weak women. Mainly to stir things up.

  115. Hawk&Rock says:

    Rollo,

    In the interest of good faith discourse, unless you can provide proof of either a certified transcript or official teaching certification from an AAU affiliated university (or foreign equivalent thereof), I must insist that you refrain from further comment.

    Hater.

  116. Julian O'Dea says:

    Opus, in my last job, every woman (bar one) cried on me. (It was not my fault: often another woman had made them cry.) I didn’t mind. There was actually a protocol for what to do if somebody cried in your office (which I never followed because it seemed dumb.)

    Yes, David Stove, who was a bit of pain to be honest, did get into a huge fight over the University of Sydney Dept of Philosophy. He complained about one woman in particular. In the event, the leftists left and formed their own department. Stove was a funny kind of cove, though, as he had no time for Popper and Heidegger, which made no sense in a professional philosopher. He had more crotchets than a music score (music joke for you).

    He was also dumb about Darwinism.,

    I tend to agree with him on the intellectual capacity of women, generally. But maybe that is just my prejudice.

    As for women thinkers, there are a few good ones. Elisabeth Anscombe. Ayn Rand. Catherine Pickstock. There are probably others too, of which I am unaware.

  117. Opus says:

    On the subject of fees paid to Hollywood actresses: is it not the case that before the advent of Motion Pictures even the best paid actors and actresses were by today’s standards paupers and is it not also the case that outside of Hollywood – say Indian Cinema – even the best paid actors only receive a fraction of the fees that a Hollywood actor can command. Actresses like Gyllenhall really therefore have nothing to complain about. The cinema is perhaps the art of the close-up and thus it is hard to hide female aging. This is presumably not the case in Theatre and certainly in Opera age is no barrier to females playing ingenues. That however requires talent – vocal talent. Being (as she was a few years back) a top singer but with the looks of a movie star was no disadvantage to Anna Netrebko. Other are less physically alluring. I heard Nillson sing Elektra when she was sixty: never heard anything quite so amazing.

  118. Julian O'Dea says:

    I actually have a CD with Anna Netrebko, singing Pergolesi I think. I must check the cover.

    Women vocalists and instrumentalists tend to be very attractive. I am never sure if it is because people with musical talent will tend to have good genes or whether less attractive women simply don’t get the gigs. (Australia’s most famous recent diva, Dame Joan Sutherland, was famous for being unattractive though.)

    Here is what I wrote about Carolyn Farina at the post I cited:

    “My conclusion on “what happened to Carolyn Farina?” in the sense of why her career did not prosper would be something like the following. Most men will say that a woman looks her best under 25 years of age. Farina was a bit old at 26 to begin a career as a young actress based largely on her looks (by comparison, Michelle Pfeiffer was 25 in her first hit, the big mainstream movie Scarface, and that was not her first movie). Among other actresses I have mentioned here, Winona Ryder was only 22 in The Age of Innocence, and Sean Young 23 in Blade Runner (whereas the woman – Nina Axelrod – whom she beat for the role because the director Ridley Scott wanted someone young and unworldly looking was about 27).”

    The data shown earlier in this discussion, I think, on earnings of actresses imply that they earn well into their thirties. But maybe that is a selection effect. That is, the actresses still working in their thirties earn well. Many have perhaps dropped out by then.

  119. Opus says:

    Good looks aid confidence and soloists need to believe they are the best. It is perhaps noticeable just how good-looking top opera-singers tend to be: amongst the men I particularily think of Franco Corelli (who I did not hear live as he was just before my time) but even on film he is riveting so what it must have been like to hear him sing Calaf I cannot imagine. The women also tend despite the jest that it is not over until the fat lady sings to be better looking than average. Rita Hunter was pretty large but I don’t think I have ever seen anyone so light on their feet on stage (the dancing in Don Giovanni) but then I didn’t pay to see her dance: best Brunhilde I ever heard (and more than once).

  120. Opus says:

    Can I also add that I saw the late Peter Hoffman sing Siegmund opposite Gwyneth Jones’ Brunhilde (now she was a hawt): Hoffman (apart from being a great helden-tenor) looked like Rock Star.

  121. Julian O'Dea says:

    Anna Netrebko is indeed a bit of a hottie if my CD cover is anything to go by.

    The women who really stand out are the C&W singers.

    I do think the “good genes” theory has some weight though. I remember seeing the Australian Youth Chamber Orchestra, or some such thing, and they were mostly good-looking kids, boys as well as girls.

  122. I think young women also receive similar messages from the media regarding their ability to have children later in life. It’s so important for Christians to vocally counter these messages, and be honest about why it’s better to marry and have kids young.

  123. Julian O'Dea says:

    seriouslyserving, I think some of the problem is that many journalists are career women, and they tend to write what they want to be true.

  124. DeNihilist says:

    Opus, J.O’D. – you are missing the elephant in the room. In porn, it is the women who make huge money! The men, for the most part, get paid a trivance per ejaculation.

  125. @ Scott, the indignation is a result of women insisting that they know what men want before and instead of what we do. This is a cultural hegemony, and they, not the men have it. They’re so used to it that they can’t even see it even when we are all swimming in it. Manipulation and self-deception being the girl/woman’s “strong” suits.

  126. “men find assertive women attractive if they are very cute women”

    And witchcraft can kill a person if you feed him arsenic at the same time.

  127. “There was actually a protocol for what to do if somebody cried in your office”

    I’m dying to know what that protocol was.

  128. Marissa says:

    Older actresses don’t do too well, maybe because people instinctively know they should be raising children and grand-children. There’s not much “butt-kicking” a 37-year-old woman can do very convincingly. Meanwhile, 50-something Patton commanded the Third Army in Europe.

  129. Dalrock says:

    @TFH

    Gents, you still don’t know how to debate these tingle-prospecting women (Allison in this case). You accepted her frame of cherrypicked movies (with the Expendables being the third installment of the series, no less), and debate HER ill-chosen example. Fail.

    Allison merely needs to internalize Rollo’s chart of Sexual Market Value

    My interest was not to debate her on the respective SMV curves, but to smoke out just how invested she was in the lie the media is selling. This is a post about the cruelty of the media setting women up for the con, and me attacking this cruel lie made Allison very uncomfortable. I wanted to see just how committed she was to the side of the con artist, and more importantly, give others the chance to see that this was in fact in play. It could have gone the other way, and she could have realized that she was emotionally invested in a very pernicious lie.

    On Rollo’s chart, it is an excellent visual conceptualization of the staggered SMV/MMV curves for men and women. It isn’t proof or data, but an aid in describing the concept. Realistically no amount of proof would be enough for someone like Allison. She isn’t here to discuss but to distract and dissemble. But for those who are sincerely looking for some objective data the OK Cupid post which shows the very same pattern is probably the best single source for a high level view. For those who need their data blessed by an academic, we could even point out that an Oxford researcher references the same data in the Daily Mail article The Plankton Generation – that’s women who are barely visible and at the bottom of the food chain for romance – just because they’re over 45.

    The imbalance, it seems, is because middle-aged men are looking for partners who are far younger than them. ‘A man can pick from a wider pool of women — his age and under, by several decades,’ The Plankton writes. ‘I have a friend in her late 30s who lives with, and has children by, a man in his mid-60s. He is paunchy with grey chest hair and not especially rich. He plucked her from a surfeit of willing women, watching him like vultures before my friend “got” him.’

    This may be the case in some circles, but is it generally true? Sadly, yes, according to Dr Bernie Hogan, a research fellow at Oxford University. He pointed me towards a research website called OkTrends, which draws on data supplied by more than a million members of OkCupid, one of the biggest dating websites in the world. In a report entitled The Case For An Older Woman, it states that 45-year-olds have a much harder time finding romance because ‘the male fixation on youth distorts the dating pool’.

  130. Isa says:

    @Dalrock
    Check out this article
    http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/07/what-open-marriage-taught-one-man-about-feminism.html
    “Before my wife started sleeping with other men, I certainly considered myself a feminist, but I really only understood it in the abstract. When I quit working to stay at home with the kids, I began to understand it on a whole new level. I am an economically dependent househusband coping with the withering drudgery of child-rearing.”

  131. Dalrock says:

    @Scott

    A friend was looking through a gun magazine and came accross an ad with tattooed, boob-jobed, cut-off shorts wearing model holding guns with ammo belts draped over her.
    He pointed it out and said something about how he finds strong, assertive women attractive.

    I think this is the conflation of two different things:

    1) The sex appeal of an available woman. The image was of a good looking woman signaling her sexual availability.
    2) Internalizing the feminist message that good men are attracted to feminist women, and only a weak man is put off by them.

    Men who are easily swayed by #2 conflate this with #1 and decide they must really prefer feminist women.

  132. Opus says:

    I like to think that Rollos chart accurately describes SMV but I have to say I have never noticed women in their forties throwing themselves at me or indeed anyone else (other than the local PUA); on the contrary they remain as entitled and difficult as their younger sisters and make it clear that they are far too good for me. It may all be a fitness test but some fitness tests are just not worth the candle.

    Even so I know of a fifty year old woman (an ex-gf) who fell for exactly the same Con as the elderly lady. I was worried that my Mother might do the same for newly widowed aged eighty-nine she had no less than two younger men (in their seventies) keen to date her. She selected one of them (a former soldier) and rejected the other – she always liked a military man.

    Yesterday, I was looking at a new Facebook photo of a female I was interested in ten years ago. She was a very interesting thirty-eight at the time and though she is now ten years older, I have to confess (were it not that I do not wish her well) and although she has lost that youthful bloom she then had, she is still to my eyes seriously do-able – those breasts of hers still mezmerise me..

    I think I am confused and uncertain about all this.

  133. Scott says:

    I think this is the conflation of two different things:

    I figured you or someone else would pick up on that. Its exactly what I remembered about it, but at the time I could not articulate it that way. (It was like 2004).

  134. Dalrock says:

    Thanks Isa.

    That is quite an article. I think Vox Day and The Other McCain both did posts on it (Edit: Here and here), and we discussed it in the comments of the Headlines vs Reality post as well (starting here).

  135. Isa writes, Check out this article
    http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/07/what-open-marriage-taught-one-man-about-feminism.html
    “Before my wife started sleeping with other men, I certainly considered myself a feminist, but I really only understood it in the abstract. When I quit working to stay at home with the kids, I began to understand it on a whole new level. I am an economically dependent househusband coping with the withering drudgery of child-rearing.”

    Technically speaking, according to Dalrock this is the man’s fault as he hasn’t kept up with the churchian culture and learned “game.”

    If a churchian woman fails to honor her wedding vows, it is because the man has not yet learned game well enough.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/why-christians-need-game/

    According to Dalrock: “Why Christians need game. The problem is Christians have decided not to follow the Bible on the question of marriage in specific, and men and women in general.”

    As one can see, because the good Christian wife is no longer following the bible in the article, the man needs to step it up and learn some dalrockkianz gameslzlozolzlozol.

    Dalrock does not talk about reforming the schools, churches, and universities with the Law of Moses and Wisdom of Jesus, as, well, that won’t get him any instalanches.🙂

    Because good Christian wives are committing adultery, men must step up their game.🙂

    lzozozlzolzololzo

  136. Boxer says:

    Dear GBFM:

    Nice to see you around.

    Technically speaking, according to Dalrock this is the man’s fault as he hasn’t kept up with the churchian culture and learned “game.” [etc. etc.] Because good Christian wives are committing adultery, men must step up their game. [etc.]

    Both men and women want their spouses/mates to be attractive. Men whose wives get big and fat, and whose wives adopt a snarky, feminist, unfeminine attitude are turned off. Women don’t want to be married to weak men either, for the same reasons.

    Most of the time, when people on Dalrock refer to “game” they’re just talking about self-improvement and maintenance. It’s not hardcore roissy type stuff around here. Married men should be strong and manly, and married women should be attractive and feminine. These are natural wonts that don’t have anything to do with fornication or banging random strangers. It’s just basic respect for the other partner in the marriage.

    Best,

    Boxer

  137. Anchorman says:

    “Help, I’m drowning”

    Quick, throw him a library card!

    =======================================

    I’ll tell you the reason I didn’t date (when I was dating) 45 year old women.

    Too close to menopause. I wasn’t going to start a relationship with a woman and have it go through the stress related to it or have it change her so drastically that she’s almost a different person after it passes.

    I was committed to my wife and prepared to face menopause with her because I made a vow. She abandoned the marriage and faces it alone.

    45 is too close to the edge and there’s too much uncertainty on the other side.

  138. Casey says:

    That OK Cupid data is compelling evidence on SMV.

    Unfortunately, OK Cupid and other online dating services are the reason women have such inflated SMV opinions of themselves. They can get attention from men (perhaps not marriage or LTR, but they can get attention)

    Online dating (or even old-fashioned introduction services) are the playground of women. These contraptions exist for the ‘shopping convenience’ of women.

    They cater to women, for women. Men are just the bozos paying for it all.

    The OK Cupid article (while laying out a lot of great data) is a multi-page plug to get men to ‘expand their horizons’ to dating older women.

    Men aren’t messaging older women, so the problem must be men…….right?🙂

  139. Casey says:

    @ Anchorman

    I had the benefit of being in the presence of a close friend’s wife for a conversation regarding single 50 year old men/women.

    She couldn’t understand why these two group of people don’t just ‘get together’. I just smiled at her, and refrained from explaining anything to her.

    I did however (silently) congratulate her on finally thinking like a man…………albeit about 25 years too late.

    Women absolutely cannot internalize the discussion they are having today with their younger selves, or even own the fact that in their SMV/MMV prime they pissed away their capital.

    The problem seems to be that women are dealt their MMV cards upfront; and expect it to always remain static.

    For women……….it’s always about now. Tomorrow is but an aberration.

  140. brownj says:

    @boxer 2:18

    I think both partners in the marriage can handle a little in the way of looking older, height and weight appropriateness, but the attitude can have a lot of effect.

    Think of a wife who has put on a few pounds, but some how has a way of making it look ok with her clothing and makeup… she has dinner on the table, makes herself available to you any time and initiates intimacy in the ways you want on a regular basis with enthusiasm. She respects and is genuinely impressed with you and grateful for your provisions, doesn’t complain or pressure you. She doesn’t get upset easily and minds her manners with others and doesn’t gossip. That is attractive all the years long and older men try to find that younger woman who will be this way instead of the crabby 45-55 year old who doesn’t care what you think!

    Unfortunately that younger woman now-a-days is taught the art of the hamster.

  141. Michelle says:

    @ Opus

    I like to think that Rollos chart accurately describes SMV but I have to say I have never noticed women in their forties throwing themselves at me or indeed anyone else (other than the local PUA); on the contrary they remain as entitled and difficult as their younger sisters and make it clear that they are far too good for me. It may all be a fitness test but some fitness tests are just not worth the candle.

    I think that women start out with a SMV that is so much higher than men’s that most men will have to work for even an older, less attractive woman.

  142. JDG says:

    I think that women start out with a SMV that is so much higher than men’s that…

    It’s pretty well established that young women are the rockstars of the SMV world.

    … most men will have to work for even an older, less attractive woman.

    In spite of Opus’ experiences, my own are quite different. I’ve spent quite a lot of time with the elderly, and I do not see this at all. Almost always the men are older. The whole idea of grannies and grandpa’s looking for ‘luv’ is disgusting to begin with, but the idea that there is a horde of men out there chasing older women for marriage or even fornication is preposterous.

  143. feeriker says:

    … most men will have to work for even an older, less attractive woman.

    Ooooooooh, see the sparks fly off the hamster wheel!

  144. J N says:

    My experience around the elderly (or even 50+) dating is that it is so tipped in the favour of males that it’s ridiculous. Men in their 70s can easily secure women in their 50s, and they don’t do really have to do anything except show up. If the woman is overweight, unattractive, or unpleasant to be with, her prospects are nil.

  145. seriouslyserving, I think some of the problem is that many journalists are career women, and they tend to write what they want to be true.

    Yes, I think you’re right. When I studied journalism at uni, most of the other young women had no serious plans to marry or have kids anytime soon. But I remember a specific conversation with one class mate, shortly before I got married (that was in the middle of my last year). She confided in me that despite knowing she “should ” be focusing on her career, she was secretly envious of my decision to marry young, and lined for the days when that was what women did.
    I really felt for her . It just goes to show how far around the narrative has swung.

  146. Michelle says:

    @ JDG

    I don’t mean to say that large numbers of men are pursuing women who are older than they are. I am saying that even when both are old, whether he is older or not, the man usually has to work for the woman.

    @ JN

    My experience around the elderly (or even 50+) dating is that it is so tipped in the favour of males that it’s ridiculous. Men in their 70s can easily secure women in their 50s, and they don’t do really have to do anything except show up. If the woman is overweight, unattractive, or unpleasant to be with, her prospects are nil.

    I am going to the second wedding of a fat fifty year old woman this summer. He is about fifty as well. They met at work. I believe that older women have a harder time finding a spouse than older men in general. Especially once the men start dying off.

  147. Spike says:

    It isn’t just the media telling women to believe Fairy Tales, Dalrock.
    There is a collective denial amongst men to not tell women unvarnished truth, probably because we want to have sex with them.
    Thus we tell our daughters fairy tales about them being able to have it all, we tell our work colleagues we can cover for them, spare our wives the harsher aspects of our jobs. Yet we don’t do them any favours, since they go through their whole lives never being exposed to harshe realities.
    Thankfully with the advent of the Manosphere / Red Pill, this denial is eroding.

  148. *longed for the days

  149. JDG says:

    I am saying that even when both are old, whether he is older or not, the man usually has to work for the woman.

    Do you mean “work” as in woo her affections?

    I am going to the second wedding of a fat fifty year old woman this summer.

    I don’t see too many 45 + year old’s getting married, but I DO see a lot of large women paired up with thin guys.

  150. Marissa says:

    There is also the sperm/egg donor criteria. The best cryobanks do not take women older than age 27 for egg donation, but they take men up to age 39. These are posted criteria on their websites, and this is merely considered the end of the prime age.

    Egg donors are also expected to be healthy, non-smoking and of a healthy BMI. I’ve even seen weight cutoffs (no higher than 160 lbs). Other factors are a clean medical history and family history and signs of intelligence (some college education). The highest age I’ve seen is 31.

    A man could basically say “if you’re not fit to be an egg donor, I’m not interested in dating/marriage.” Pretty hilarious how red-pill it all gets when you want the best babies and are forking over an arm and a leg for it! I might have mistaken all of this for 19th century courtship expectations, parents haggling over the best qualities in their children, etc.

  151. Julian O'Dea says:

    The Real Peterman

    The protocol if somebody started crying in your office was to offer them a box of tissues and leave them alone for a while.

    The problem with this was that I didn’t always have a box of tissues to hand and it seems cruel to leave a woman on her own when she is unhappy. They were mostly colleagues I quite respected.

    I used to just say something as understanding as possible and wait patiently for her to calm down.

    Sometimes they were in tears because of something from home; sometimes another woman had been nasty to them about work; once it was the female Director upset about something.

  152. Isa says:

    @Julian O’Dea

    No, leave women alone when they cry. Does any animal like being “comforted” while it’s upset and wounded? Generally not. If a woman must be cosseted, she’s not actually that upset as being truly upset is quite embarrassing in the workplace. I’ve always went to the bathroom or left the building if I was seriously upset, as the last thing I would want is to be the weak female who cannot control herself.

    Perhaps instead walk her to the bathroom and tell her that you’ll leave her some coffee on her desk or something so she feels cared about. Watching waterworks does nobody any good.

  153. Julian O'Dea says:

    Isa, I found that my approach worked.

    But some of your points sound reasonable.

    In any case, I am retired now, so it is no longer a problem I face.

    (It is partly perhaps a cultural difference. Australians like to be stoical and dislike making a “fuss”.)

  154. Pingback: Women and Philosophy | Julian O'Dea

  155. DeNihilist says:

    Love how the Cupid states that it is older men skewing the data!

    There once lived an honorable Jew about 2100 years ago, He mentioned something about the TRUTH setting you free, hmmm……

  156. GeminiXcX says:

    Michelle on July 22, 2015 at 3:46 pm
    @ Opus

    {{I like to think that Rollos chart accurately describes SMV but I have to say I have never noticed women in their forties throwing themselves at me or indeed anyone else (other than the local PUA); on the contrary they remain as entitled and difficult as their younger sisters and make it clear that they are far too good for me. It may all be a fitness test but some fitness tests are just not worth the candle.}}

    I think that women start out with a self-invented sense of unjustified SMV that is so much higher than men’s that most men will have to work for even an older, less attractive woman.

    Fixed it for ya.

    -GXcX

  157. Boxer says:

    The same question pops up among the less clued in regarding why East Asian men* and Black women** don’t just get together, when it is these two groups who lose out in the current SMP.

    There are tons of such couples, actually, but they mainly exist in Africa and the Carribean (where Chinese men increasingly are posted for business related reasons).

    The average big-city black woman (excluding immigrants) is basically unfuckable. She’s a horrible person, totally infested with feminism and a capitalist mindset, where she sees men as resources and nothing more. She is also generally fat and totally unattractive (this is by no means restricted to African-Americans, of course, but they display the physical traits of a North American fast food diet as well as whites). Just listen to some of these bitches talk about men and you don’t have to wonder why they are all single, on welfare, etc.

    No self-respecting man would touch any of these hoes. . This is why you see respectable big-city Black dudes with Asian, white, or immigrant women from Africa. Google Tommy Sotomayor for more on this trend.

    A popular conspiracy theory is that feminism was created to destroy the Black family first. While I don’t know if this can be proven, it doesn’t surprise me that people imagine it to be true, because it’s what is happening.

  158. GeminiXcX says:

    Julian O’Dea 

    I called a man out on this once too. In college. I also once wrote on a discussion list that I like weak women. Mainly to stir things up.

    Lol.
    I’m beginning to like this ‘Julian’ fellow.

    -GXcX

  159. GeminiXcX says:

    @Julian

    The combining of “tradition” and actual scripture, is not particularly acceptable to me (Mark 7:6-9).

    However, there is no purpose served to start arguments regarding specific creed formation at this time.

    Regardless, your breakdown of sexual behaviors caught my eye. I, too, share these viewpoints.

    The more-recent obsessive trend among heterosexuals, even “long-term/committed” couples — anal sex — is baffling. The thought of shoving my cock into my wife’s ass is repulsive. To me, it would demean both of us; and I’m not even basing that conclusion on some religious ‘taboo’ guilt of some kind.

    The bonding process between couples has been eroded so much, that the actual sexual acts themselves must be taken further and further into “deviancy/bizarre” to be a “turn on”.

    Separate love from sex, the sex acts must be taken to extremes to compensate (hence why porn has devolved to every fetish conceivable).

    There’s nothing wrong with “good romps”/etc, with your significant other, but I will state as well that if “basic” missionary sex is engaged in by a couple who are truly into each other, even the woman can be brought to ‘satisfaction’ every time.

    Regarding the oral sex “gray area”; an interesting viewpoint you have. Giving it to a woman can be a very intimate experience, but ‘blowjobs’ are not appealing to me.

    Performing on my wife is one thing; her sucking me off is another.

    Married couples who can’t get off on each other anymore make the mistake of listening to “spice up your love life” ads from fetish shops, and purchase toys and costumes thinking this will help them. It may “help” initially, but soon boredom will set in again, as they search for a more intense ‘high’.

    “Spice up your love life”. I roll my eyes when I see those ads. No amount of “spice” can enhance the “love” that is missing from the relationship.

    So sad.

    -GXcX

  160. GeminiXcX says:

    @Boxer

    Regarding your last two comments, before my posting of this one:

    Well spoken.

    As an aside. . .
    Mr “Great Books For Men”, I don’t believe we’ve been introduced. I remember your ‘interesting’ way of approaching the comments, even from when I just lurked here for a prolonged time before posting my first.

    I even went into your website, only to be greeted by you being shut-down, or something. I was curious what these “Great Books” are that I should look into.

    You appear to be a particularly ‘jovial’ kind of dude.

    Good that you came back. Sometimes Dalrock and his minions are too much for one man (me) to handle.

    As I extend my hand. . .
    “lollozzzzzzzzollllllozzz”

    Goodnight GBFM; gentlemen.

    -GreatXcX

  161. Looking Glass says:

    @Boxer:

    Johnson’s “Great Society” was targeted to destroy Black Men. That much we have confirmation of from quotes of those involved. It, in turn, created the environment for Black Women to destroy themselves.

    As for the Chinese Engineer – African Woman dynamic, it is very real. But you also have to realize that in those environments, they can snipe off the top tier Women. Those Chinese Betas end up being Rich, Powerful & Exotic compared to the locals.

  162. Julian O'Dea says:

    GeminiXcX

    I will look that text up.

    Yes, I have learned not to have religious debates. People have good reasons for their views and you are unlikely to change them. They come from different perspectives.

    As for liking weak women, I was semi-serious. It is of course acceptable to say you like strong women, but not to say you like weak women. And yet some men tend that way. For example, I can understand being tempted to those acts you mention as disagreeable to you.

    In my experience, a proportion of women react badly to “chauvinistic” attitudes, and a proportion react well. A lot of my more “sexist” posts seem to be liked by quite a few women; and that is not allowing for the women who claim to be offended but really may not be.

    https://davidcollard.wordpress.com/2015/05/27/a-feminine-expression-helps/

  163. feeriker says:

    The average big-city black woman (excluding immigrants) is basically unfuckable.

    Oh, she’s definitely fuckable – if you have low/no standards. However, that’s all she’s useful for (note that I didn’t say good for), useless you consider oxygen and welfare consumption and thugspawn breeding to be “useful.” She’s most certainly NOT fit for any kind of relationship.

  164. DeNihilist says:

    GXcX I have noted that anal is a hallmark for really being an alphalpha on certain pua sites. If she don’t let you anal-yze her, you must be a simpering Betamax.

    Uh-huh, getting shit on your stick proves your a closet fag in my books.

  165. Retrenched says:

    How much money does the cosmetics industry make every year selling makeup to 35 year old women who want to look 20?

    How much money do they make selling makeup to 20 year old college girls who want to look 35?

    There’s your answer.

  166. Opus says:

    This is where I take issue with Dalrock.

    The title of this thread is the emotive ‘She has been groomed her whole life for this con’. I want to focus on the word groom. My dictionary has two senses for the word. The first which does not concern us is the grooming of animals, and the second is grooming for political office. Can one still use that latter sense? – for in the last ten years a somewhat different sense of the word has grown. Can one thus still say ‘The Prince of Wales has been groomed to assume the role of King’ without eliciting a snigger, for the word groom which previously had no connotation is now a bad word – a word designed to brook all opposition or reasoned discussion. Thus: we recently had the newspaper headline ‘Jimmy Saville groomed a nation’. [Saville by the way is entirely and wrongfully maligned] We also heard that adolescent females in Rotherham had been groomed by Muslim men: the fact that the State had cut Fathers off at the knees and the Muslims had noticed that young English women have, like a stick of rock, the word SLUT tattooed right through them is entirely ignored. To use the word groom now implies (so far as I can tell) a devious intent to mislead some person who is as a result of an unexplained voodoo-like curse is unable to resist. Women thus have no agency or moral responsibility: they have been groomed.

    The unfortunate woman in the NYTimes article is seventy-six years old: Dalrock is thus saying that since she was born, that is to say in 1939, three years before America entered WW2 in the middle of the New Deal and whilst Gone With the Wind and Wizard of Oz were new at the cinema that she (and all other women) have been deliberately and in some unexplained conspiracy led to believe that younger men fancy them.

    The lady describes herself as not being stupid but naive, and who can doubt it for which of us here can say that they have never fallen for some misleading information. People tend towards confirmation bias and thus if something appears to be the way one wants one tends to find the information credible. Consider the following from my days in the law: a brief which seemed to have floated around landed on my desk. The brief facts were that a wealthy couple had employed an Investment Adviser to invest the money on their behalf. Sadly the portfolio lost money rather than gaining it. The Advisor explained the misfortune but said that if they gave him more money he could not only make up the loss but improve the portfolio. The money was provided and yet again the portfolio sunk. The wealthy people then a third time gave further funds which was also lost. I was asked what remedy they had. My advice (on the facts ) had to be that there was no evidence of wrongdoing and that therefore they would be throwing good money after by pursuing a civil action against the hapless Investment Adviser.

    Our lady meets on-line a person she has never met – but like everyone else seeks love and happiness – marriage after all is a case of keeping ones fingers crossed trusting that one has met the right person – and she meets someon who calls himself Kelvin Wells who claims to be to be German. Most Germans are called Helmut or Rutger and with long unpronouncable surnames like Schwarzenegger not the very English Kelvin Wells. Then again he says that his dream is to visit Italy. I know Americans are not exactly famous for their grasp of Geography but – come on – Italy and Germany are next door to each other – as if Dalrock were to claim that his dream destination was Arizona. The Conman however pressed her buttons when seeking a strong and outspoken person – yet De Tocqueville was complaining two centuries ago that that was how American women were becoming.

    It is always possible of course that the article is yet another fabrication and the give away is the photo, which looks contrived. How convenient that on the dresser near the objet d’art are two photographs, one of a young woman and the other of a man in uniform: clearly these are supposed to be photographs in earlier times of the lady and her husband. She sits at a table gazing at the laptop which brought about her misery; and then there is the seemingly perspicacious black cat. In the words of the song: ‘Black Cat, keep away from me, take my advice and go shinny up a tree, I’ve got hard luck, the hardest kind of luck you can find. Ive got the bluest kind of blues that’s driving me right out of my mind’.

  167. Julian O'Dea says:

    Opus, yes, people are very easy to fool. Men as well as women. I could tell stories. Let’s just say that people believe what they want to believe and see what they expect to see. The former is how conmen work and the latter is how magicians work.

    On the Rotherham thing, is there any evidence at all that some of the real causes are being addressed?

  168. ayatollah says:

    @Dalrock
    @Scott

    “A friend was looking through a gun magazine and came accross an ad with tattooed, boob-jobed, cut-off shorts wearing model holding guns with ammo belts draped over her.
    He pointed it out and said something about how he finds strong, assertive women attractive.”

    “I think this is the conflation of two different things:

    1) The sex appeal of an available woman. The image was of a good looking woman signaling her sexual availability.
    2) Internalizing the feminist message that good men are attracted to feminist women, and only a weak man is put off by them.

    Men who are easily swayed by #2 conflate this with #1 and decide they must really prefer feminist women.”

    I think there might be another explanation for this. I haven’t seen the ad in question, but I would bet anything that the image was not actually of a strong woman. It was probably an image of an ATTRACTIVE woman dressed up as a strong woman. If the woman in the photo was actually strong, not just dressing up as a tough action chick, then she would have visible veins, a strong jaw, hands that look like they belong on a steelworker, and tree trunks for legs. No one is attracted to that. But a blonde bimbo who weighs 120 lbs and poses with a look of intensity and seriousness in her face while dressing up as rambo- sure, guys are into that. But that is not a strong woman. That is a conventionally feminine woman.

  169. Julian O'Dea says:

    ayatollah, yes, and there is the old trope of the girl dressed up as a man to look cute.

    A lot of women’s clothing has traditionally mimicked and gently parodied men’s. One example people give is the way women’s clothes took on a military cut during WWII.

    Soft porn plays with this trope too. Girls dressed up as boxers, cops and so on. Of course women actually perform these roles these days, but there is still a residual “cuteness” about it.

  170. Opus says:

    I would like to now take up this question of women aping male dress, and by reference to a play; the play being Middleton’s The Roaring Girl from about 1610. At this time the Sumptuary laws had been abolished that is to say the laws prohibiting women from dressing like men and the play based upon the real life Mary Firth concerns the fictional Moll Cutpurse. From her first entrance in Act 2 and in an entrance of theatrical power rivalling that of Christine in Agatha Christie’s Witness for the Prosecution, Moll comes across – and dare I say it, unlike the somewhat cardboard heroines of Middleton’s contemporary WilIiam Shakespeare – as – as with Tolstoy’s characters – so believable it is hard to grasp that she does not exist. She swaggers her away across the play as at home with Aristocracy as with low-lifes but in the most charming of ways. Intriguingly she gets mistaken (by way of her dress) for a prostitute which she vehemently denies (shades of Slut-Walkers here, I think) and in one monologue gets close (it seems) to implying a certain Lezzie sensibility. She does not have it all her own way and in one scene gets thoroughly told off and quite rightly so. In the epilogue to the play we are told that even this very night she (Mary Firth that is) may well be seen in the audience and may well come on to the stage to sing a song – and of course at this time women were not allowed to appear on stage – though clearly the audience would have had no objection. The balance between assertiveness and femeninity is a hard one for women but when they get bit right can be quite fascinating.

  171. Oscar says:

    @ Scott says:
    July 22, 2015 at 4:55 am

    “no you don’t. You are just saying that because you are supposed to. No normal guy thinks that but only says it because he thinks the girls will like it.”

    The problem – I think – is not that men dislike strong women. The problem is that women confuse bitchiness with strength.

    Take a look at the ideal woman described in Proverbs 31. She’s strong in every sense of the word, including physically.

    17 She sets about her work vigorously;
    her arms are strong for her tasks.

    25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
    she can laugh at the days to come.

    She’s also confident and assertive enough to haggle over precious commodities – both as a buyer AND seller – in the Middle East, no less!

    13 She selects wool and flax
    and works with eager hands.
    14 She is like the merchant ships,
    bringing her food from afar.

    16 She considers a field and buys it;
    out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

    18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
    and her lamp does not go out at night.

    24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
    and supplies the merchants with sashes.

    Now, think of modern women you’ve heard describe themselves as “strong”, “independent”, “confident” and/or “assertive”. Are they anything like the verses above?

    Not even close! Am I right?

    Why not? BECAUSE THEY’RE NOT STRONG! Or independent, or confident, or even assertive.
    They’re bitchy, weak, incompetent, insecure and undeservedly demanding.

    Think about this: have you ever heard a man describe himself as a “strong, independent, confident man”? I haven’t. Why not? Because there is no need. If a man is – in fact – strong, independent and confident, everybody around him already knows it. It’s as unnecessary as bragging about how tall he is.

    The same is true of women. If a woman feels the need to brag about how strong and confident she is, she ain’t.

    There’s a second issue, though, that always seems to get missed in the androsphere. When talking about confidence, one should always ask: “confidence in what?”

    Confidence does not exist in a vacuum. Confidence is always based on something. A believer’s confidence should rest on the foundation of Christ. “All other ground is sinking sand.” That is true whether the believer is male or female.

  172. Gunner Q says:

    Opus @ 4:07 am:
    “Can one thus still say ‘The Prince of Wales has been groomed to assume the role of King’ without eliciting a snigger, for the word groom which previously had no connotation is now a bad word”

    There’s no negative connotation I’m aware of. I spent most of my twenties hoping an employer would notice me and train me up. Even today, I’m aware of the straight-up necessity of grooming a man for a future position. My coworkers are STEM-type people and while the technical side of the work makes them a success, reaching the top requires business and social skills that just can’t be learned in college or while working the technical side… and running a department or small company isn’t something you want to “fake until you make”. Budgets and profits create a very steep learning curve.

    I wish there was more grooming in America, from the business world to the church. I want America to be full of apprentices, proteges, disciples and named successors. We were never so independent-minded as to neglect the training of the next generation… well, not until the “Greatest Generation”.

    I look forward to the day I train my replacement. It’ll be a proud moment to help a deserving young man repeat my success.

    “The unfortunate woman in the NYTimes article is seventy-six years old: Dalrock is thus saying that since she was born, that is to say in 1939, three years before America entered WW2 in the middle of the New Deal and whilst Gone With the Wind and Wizard of Oz were new at the cinema that she (and all other women) have been deliberately and in some unexplained conspiracy led to believe that younger men fancy them.”

    Deliberate and explained conspiracy, you mean. If she’s been watching network TV since 1939 then she’s probably very misled about men.

  173. Someday,
    I’m sure we’ll all look back
    and laugh
    and remember those days
    when the West was declining
    as Dalrock passed out pamphlets on game
    to his church
    and told everyone it would all be OK
    as long as they learned game
    and used
    the proper butt lube
    the West would be
    saved

    and instapundit gave him Dalrock an instalanche
    and all
    was
    good

    lzozolzozozozzozoz

  174. Oscar says:

    @ ayatollah says:
    July 23, 2015 at 4:53 am

    “If the woman in the photo was actually strong, not just dressing up as a tough action chick, then she would have visible veins, a strong jaw, hands that look like they belong on a steelworker, and tree trunks for legs.”

    Unlikely. Women who produce that much testosterone naturally are very rare, and they’re all professional athletes. Even professional female athletes don’t typically look like that.

    For example, these young ladies can out-lift all but a few men commenting here.

    None of them fit your description, yet the brunette in the middle hit a 242 lb PR in the clean and jerk during the competition where the above photo was taken.

  175. PokeSalad says:

    I think that women start out with a SMV that is so much higher than men’s that most men will have to work for even an older, less attractive woman.

    I’m going to tear an abdominal muscle here if she keeps this up.

  176. PokeSalad says:


    None of them fit your description, yet the brunette in the middle hit a 242 lb PR in the clean and jerk during the competition where the above photo was taken.

    She’s one of what………0.0000000000001% of women? Your point?

    Their jawlines and general appearance says they have a bit too much “T” already.

  177. Oscar says:

    PokeSalad says:
    July 23, 2015 at 10:52 am

    “She’s one of what………0.0000000000001% of women? Your point?”

    That’s exactly my point. If a young woman who is in the “0.0000000000001% of women” in strength still does not fit ayatollah’s description, then it’s highly unlikely that an ordinary strong woman would fit ayatollah’s description.

  178. “For example, these young ladies can out-lift all but a few men commenting here.”

    Most every cow can also out-lift all but a few men commenting here.

    What hath ever separated man from the bovine was the spirit and soul.

    Hopefully we can focus on that soon.🙂

    lzozozolzo zomzzgzlzlzozo

  179. I can pretty much guarantee that every able bodied man, with the same training as those women above have had, can out lift them.

  180. Oscar says:

    @ feministhater says:
    July 23, 2015 at 11:33 am

    “I can pretty much guarantee that every able bodied man, with the same training as those women above have had, can out lift them.”

    I agree. You’re missing the point, unsurprisingly.

  181. 8 in the Gate says:

    @thedeti
    RE: “79-year-old knockout”

    Reminds me of a Cary Grant quote from Operation Petticoat:

    Lt. Cmdr. Matt T. Sherman: “When a girl is under 21, she’s protected by law. When she’s over 65, she’s protected by nature. Anywhere in between, she’s fair game. Look out.”

  182. feeriker says:

    … these young ladies can out-lift all but a few men commenting here.

    Show of hands: how many men here would harbor any romantic or sexual interest at all in any of these four women, even in a fit of hormone-driven desparation?

    Back of the room? Anybody … ?

  183. Oscar says:

    @ feeriker says:
    July 23, 2015 at 11:58 am

    “Show of hands: how many men here would harbor any romantic or sexual interest at all in any of these four women”

    Also missing the point, also unsurprisingly.

  184. feeriker says:

    Also missing the point, also unsurprisingly.

    No one missed your point, which isn’t the only one to be made from your example (something that you, not surprisingly, seem clearly unable to grasp).

  185. Oscar says:

    @ feeriker says:
    July 23, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    “No one missed your point”

    Really? What was it, then?

  186. Anchorman says:

    Oscar,
    I’m not sure what your point is.

    They’re not particularly cute. They’re at the early stages of their lives. If they continue, their features will harden, their bodies will thicken, and they will likely take on more masculine characteristics.

    Is that your point?

  187. Oscar says:

    @ feeriker

    You were saying?

  188. PokeSalad says:

    “an ordinary strong woman.”

    Again, what?

    I sense someone’s trolling.

  189. Anchorman says:

    That’s exactly my point. If a young woman who is in the “0.0000000000001% of women” in strength still does not fit ayatollah’s description, then it’s highly unlikely that an ordinary strong woman would fit ayatollah’s description.

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

  190. Jeremy says:

    I followed the link… and I can’t stop laughing at the image that was chosen…

    Yes, because the best way to demonstrate how strong and independent you are is to have your hypnosis-eyed black cat “guarding” all blurry in the foreground while the article describes your stupidity…

  191. Anchorman says:

    Jeremy,
    I agree with Opus (I think it was him). I don’t have sympathy for frivorcees who lose their cash and prizes, but this woman was a widow who wanted human connection. It’s why they picked her and didn’t mention the marital status of others in the article.

    She’s a cautionary tale for children to stay involved with their parents as they get older so they aren’t so desperate.

    Again, I’m talking the widow/widower of the Marriage 1.0 generation.

  192. Oscar says:

    @ PokeSalad says:
    July 23, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    “Again, what? I sense someone’s trolling.”

    Seriously? Is it really that difficult to understand? An ordinary woman who trains for strength. In other words, not the kind of genetic freak who competes at the international level.

    Although all elite athletes are genetic freaks, and we ordinary folk can’t reach their potential regardless of training, all people can – and should – train for strength – regardless of sex – if for no other reason than strength is the best predictor of long term health.

    “The underappreciated role of muscle in health and disease”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16960159

    http://snowgoosechronicles.blogspot.com/2014/09/hand-grip-strength-and-longevity.html

  193. Anchorman says:

    Oscar,
    You can see that those girls are developing boy bodies, can’t you? Cover the faces and they look like boys.

    It won’t take long before they fit ayatollah’s description. Can women attain well above average strength and maintain a fairly female-like physique? Yeah. Will they maintain a feminine look if they keep it up? No chance.

    If you want a body like a man, do manly things. If those girl’s continue to do manly things, they will take on manly appearance and, more likely, manly personality characteristics.

  194. feeriker says:

    Really? What was it, then?

    Ok, it’s a slow morning (and it must be for you too), so I’ll humor you.

    Ayatollah said:

    “I think there might be another explanation for this. I haven’t seen the ad in question, but I would bet anything that the image was not actually of a strong woman. It was probably an image of an ATTRACTIVE woman dressed up as a strong woman. If the woman in the photo was actually strong, not just dressing up as a tough action chick, then she would have visible veins, a strong jaw, hands that look like they belong on a steelworker, and tree trunks for legs. No one is attracted to that. But a blonde bimbo who weighs 120 lbs and poses with a look of intensity and seriousness in her face while dressing up as rambo- sure, guys are into that. But that is not a strong woman. That is a conventionally feminine woman.”

    To which Oscar replied:

    “Unlikely. Women who produce that much testosterone naturally are very rare, and they’re all professional athletes. Even professional female athletes don’t typically look like that. For example, these young ladies can out-lift all but a few men commenting here.”

    No argument there, certainly not from me or from any observant man, unless he’s beem living in the nythical land of the Amazons.

    Let’s remember that the whole discussion was launched from this comment by Scott:

    “A friend was looking through a gun magazine and came accross an ad with tattooed, boob-jobed, cut-off shorts wearing model holding guns with ammo belts draped over her.

    “He pointed it out and said something about how he finds strong, assertive women.

    “I said ‘no you don’t. You are just saying that because you are supposed to. No normal guy thinks that but only says it because he thinks the girls will like it.”

    Indeed. Point taken – and uncontested.

    So just in case you’ve lost track of the bouncing ball:

    Assertion #1: Most heterosexual men don’t find “strong” women attractive. Weak and desperate men (or “strong/alpha” men who are just conformist asslickers who refuse to buck the PC status quo), however, will claim that they do –and might even have convinced themselves that they do, if only subconsciously.

    No argument there, as visible evidence is a abundant. Obvious point taken.

    Assertion #2: Ayatollah’s claim above. Already discussed. Obvious point taken. No argument.

    Assertion #3: See your statement above. No argument with obvious facts in evidence from any man living in the real world, no point missed.

    Assertion #4, from FeministHater.

    “I can pretty much guarantee that every able bodied man, with the same training as those women above have had, can out lift them.”

    A provable truth – and one that in no way contests or contradicts your point, nor in any way indicates that FH missed it (the fact that he didn’t regurgitate it for you in no way indicating that he did miss it). So what’s the problem?

    Assertion #5: Mine. Which also in no way contradicts or “misses” your point and is, in fact, merely a restatement of Scott’s original assertion. Again, what’s the problem?

    Ok, so, after all of these bits have been wasted, we can sum up the essential point of the entire discussion thread with this:

    Normal heterosexual men are not attracted to “musclewomen,” whether they are otherwise “feminine” women who bulk up by pumping iron or “Frankenfemales” who are reservoirs of testosterone who make Hulk Hogan look attractive by comparison.

    There now. Satisified?

  195. Oscar says:

    Anchorman says:
    July 23, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    “You can see that those girls are developing boy bodies, can’t you? Cover the faces and they look like boys.”

    Not sure what kind of boys you’re hanging out with, but okay.

    Again, elite athletes are not the point. They represent the absolute upper limit of human athletic potential. The point is that ordinary people – in this case women – who train for strength will never achieve the level of an elite athlete, and therefore don’t need worry about it.

    Still…

    “It won’t take long before they fit ayatollah’s description.”

    The lady in the following photo is retired Olympic weightlifter (now coach) Natalie Burgener. Does she fit that description?

  196. Oscar says:

    feeriker says:
    July 23, 2015 at 2:11 pm
    Really? What was it, then?

    “Ok, it’s a slow morning (and it must be for you too), so I’ll humor you.”

    I’m stuck in an airport, so…

    “Ok, so, after all of these bits have been wasted, we can sum up the essential point of the entire discussion thread with this:

    Normal heterosexual men are not attracted to “musclewomen,” whether they are otherwise “feminine” women who bulk up by pumping iron or “Frankenfemales” who are reservoirs of testosterone who make Hulk Hogan look attractive by comparison.

    There now. Satisified?”

    I didn’t ask you to “sum up the essential point of the entire discussion thread”. You stated that “No one missed your point”. So I asked if you actually know what my point is. Apparently, the answer is “no”.

    And if you find “Hulk Hogan… attractive by comparison”, that’s your business.

  197. Anchorman says:

    Oscar,
    Yes. She is manish.

  198. Anchorman says:

    Tried to link the picture.

  199. Anchorman says:

    After this, I give up.

  200. Oscar says:

    You realize that’s in the middle of a high exertion movement, right? People (male and female) look very different during a moment of high exertion (and for a while afterward) than they do at rest. That is what “bros” refer to as “the pump”.

  201. Oscar says:

    And – again – we’re talking about an elite athlete. And – again – ordinary people will never achieve an elite athlete’s level of fitness, regardless of training.

  202. Anchorman says:

    Oscar,
    Stop.

    You really wanted to “prove us menfolk” wrong about strong women by using photos you think show sexy girls/women.

    They are developing or have developed manly features and are losing femininity.

    The picture I linked (oh so poorly) proves ayatollah’s point and refutes your objection to his point.

    She is manish. She has bulging veins. She is probably as shy and demure as your average guy because she is doing manly things and becoming more manly and less womanly.

    Those girls will turn into the vein-popping, East German swim team looking type if they keep it up.

    Doing manly things develops manly features and traits.

    You’re arguing against biology, common sense, and your own eyes, man.

  203. Anchorman says:

    And – again – we’re talking about an elite athlete. ,/I>

    You’re the one who brought her into this, Oscar.

    Honestly, it’s like I’m arguing with my ex-wife.

    Deflection, word-gaming, brings something up, says it’s irrelevant once it proves the opposite point…

  204. Oscar says:

    Anchorman says:
    July 23, 2015 at 3:06 pm

    “You really wanted to “prove us menfolk” wrong about strong women by using photos you think show sexy girls/women.”

    Not even close. Talk about missing the point!

    “Those girls will turn into the vein-popping, East German swim team looking type if they keep it up.”

    You realize the East Germans were on roids, right? If a woman with an elite athlete’s genetics and training doses with steroids like the East Germans did, then yes, they’ll look like the East Germans. If they don’t, they won’t.

    And that’s the point. Ordinary women can develop strength without looking like roided-out elite East German athletes.

    How do I know? Because I’ve seen it. So has every man who’s trained at a serious strength training gym and trained men and women.

    Furthermore, they should develop strength because it leads to greater health, especially later in life. Nothing staves off osteoporosis like the effect strength training has on bone density.

    I’m not an expert coach, but you don’t have to take my word for it. Try perusing through Mark Rippetoe’s columns at PJ Media.

    http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/author/markrippetoe/

  205. Oscar says:

    Anchorman says:
    July 23, 2015 at 3:10 pm

    “You’re the one who brought her into this, Oscar.”

    And the point is that an ordinary person will never reach an elite athlete’s level of fitness, and therefore need not concern him/herself with it. Yet, despite that, most elite female athletes – at rest – don’t fit ayatollah’s description. Therefore, a non-elite women need not worry that she will fit that description.

  206. Oscar says:

    That was supposed to read: a non-elite woman need not worry that she will fit that description.

  207. Scott says:

    Interesting direction that sub-conversation went. I am thinking some of it is accounted for by variance in actual taste.

    My original point was pretty well explained by Dalrock very early on. Then Ayatollah put an even finer point on it noting accurately that the picture was of a very feminine, voluptuous woman playing “tough.” This is a confusing image to the male brain, I’m afraid. To me, it just looks silly.

    But my friends conflation of that image with “strong woman” is worth volumes of further comment. It reminds me of several posts here and at the old Sunshine Mary blog about how women are basically being a poor facsimile of men when they put on their version of a game/war face or try to be assertive or dominant, or sex crazed. This is how they THINK male strength manifests.

    This is, in turn sold to men (for the last 40+ years) as “strength” and if you don’t like it you “can’t handle it.”

    The socialization of this message is pretty much complete now. You really have to buck it to watch how pretty much everyone reacts and calls you names.

  208. Oscar says:

    Scott says:
    July 23, 2015 at 3:23 pm

    “This is how they THINK male strength manifests. This is, in turn sold to men (for the last 40+ years) as ‘strength’ and if you don’t like it you ‘can’t handle it’.”

    Like I stated earlier, women tend to confuse bitchiness with strength.

  209. feeriker says:

    And if you find “Hulk Hogan… attractive by comparison”, that’s your business.

    Pathetic.

    I’m done wasting time with you.

  210. Opus says:

    It always strikes me that The Olympic Games (and not just the spastic version) are somewhat a freak show. We admire the physique (even if we suspect the use of banned steroids) of the man who breasts the tape in the 100 Metres dash; yet he is not in any sense representative of the average male, even of a male of his own age. Were the contest to be between that champion and a Tiger, the Tiger would (if one could make The Tiger understand what was required of him) win the race in record time without breaking into a sweat and then return to eat his competitor. He would not however need to spend four years in arduous training. Any tiger – even a Zoo Tiger – would do.

    Women Athletes are the female equivalent of Transvestites. The Thai Kattoeys are the cutest but if you look closely you can tell that they are not quite what they purport to be and the same is true of the above female weightlifters. Worse still – despite their big grins – it not only does not make them more attractive to men but in fact reduces their sexual appeal, even though there is doubtless some curiosity value as to what it would be like to bed one of them.

  211. Original Laura says:

    TFH. The Nigerians must send out letters in huge batches till they get lucky .This woman got married in 1939 so she may never have had a full time job and may not have managed money at all prior to the death of her husband. As she is in her 70s she may have experienced some mental slippage which can occur as early as the 60s in some cases

    I’m dealing with elderly parents who are cognitively intact but by the time most people are in their late 80s they are relying on other people to some extent whether they like it or not . This lady in her 70s is obviously not capable of managing her own affairs . It’s a sad situation . Michael Jackson was reportedly scammed repeatedly too . Some of these situations could be prevented with a trust or by watchful adult children and more men should consider whether their wives will be easily swindled or sweet talked out of the money

    The Nigerians will always be among us

  212. Just Saying says:

    their advanced age is sexy

    Newsflash ladies: That is complete BS… A woman over 25 is rocketing down hill, by the time she’s 40 she’s done – unless she’s targeting guys in their 70’s with eyesight problems. Sorry ladies – I know it’s not fair, but you held all of the aces when you were young, you can’t expect that to continue. So if you are old (over 35) or fat (more than 15 lbs over the 1950’s ideal weight for your height – not the PC bull-sh*t of today) you’re not sexy to any man with a functioning cock.

  213. J N says:

    The con of young men preying on old women purely to fleece them out of their finances is not exactly new.

  214. J N says:

    Men having a fetish for being attracted to women with masculine features isn’t exactly new, either, but it’s sure not the norm. Given a choice between Kate Upton and a champion deadlifter, I’m pretty most men would choose the former.

  215. bradford says:

    @anchorman and @feeriker

    What you must realize about Oscar by now is that he never concedes a point. He will tenaciously prolong the argument, ultimately descending into silly schoolboy retorts if necessary until you finally give up. I know, I’ve been through his routine before.

  216. Gunner Q says:

    I’m with ayatollah, Anchorman and feeriker. Physically strong women do not look like women. Lifting to firm up her curves, that can work, but female athletes always end up without curves at all… runners and lifters both. Those pictures only confirm this. Especially in this age of celebrating sodomy, I can’t stomach the thought of bedding a well-muscled partner.

    If she doesn’t have T&A then my instincts say she isn’t female.

  217. feeriker says:

    Those pictures only confirm this. Especially in this age of celebrating sodomy, I can’t stomach the thought of bedding a well-muscled partner.

    Be careful. One of those “ladies” might choose to beat the shit out of you for saying that.

  218. @GBFM: “Because good Christian wives are committing adultery, men must step up their game.🙂

    Sad as this might be your satire loses because it also happens to be true. What is your alternative for married men in low sex marriages besides learn game and the rules of attraction? The only Great Books For Men that answers that question were written by Rollo. Sure if that ORIGINAL Great Book For Men were followed then everything would be just fine. The problem is this requires the wommminz to follow it and they won’t, but men can compel them to follow it with game and appropriately activating the tingleszzzzzzzlolololzzz in marriage.

    @JulienO’dea: I thought this WAS the place for religious debate. What exactly does the RCC consider Holy Scripture? I know the papal encyclicals are on the list but what about the Doctors of the Church, St. August and so on? As a protestant I can believe whatever I want and I believe Scripture is not infallibly reported to us and suspect Jesus was much more Gnostic than they want us to know. Further (IMHO) Scripture is a continuum and the (reported) words of Jesus should be given the most force, followed by the writings of the Apostles and the Torah, and then the Doctor’s of the Church, and last- and most certainly least- the papal encyclicals. So while I am very interested in what some early church fathers wrote, and have read 10 or 20 books by St. Augustine, Alain de la Roche and others, I do not feel spiritually bound by them.

    @Fereeker: ” how many men here would harbor any romantic or sexual interest at all in any of these four women, even in a fit of hormone-driven desperation?”

    Actually I am a pretty strong guy and while they got me on the clean and jerk- not by much and only because I don’t even do that exercise due to a back injury. I bet I can beat all those girls on the bench and would most certainly be pleased to play wrestlemania and conduct a hypertrophiedvaginamuscle butthex experiment on any of them. loooolllllzllzlzololzllololzlolzzzz.

  219. Julian O'Dea says:

    To quote some actual science that MarcusD posted here not long ago:

    “These differences in muscularity translate into large differences in strength and speed. Men have about 90% greater upper-body strength, a difference of approximately three standard deviations (Abe et al., 2003; Lassek & Gaulin, 2009). The average man is stronger than 99.9% of women (Lassek & Gaulin, 2009). Men also have about 65% greater lower body strength (Lassek & Gaulin, 2009; Mayhew & Salm, 1990), over 45% higher vertical leap, and over 22% faster sprint times (Mayhew & Salm, 1990). Contrary to earlier claims, sex differences in anaerobic sprint speeds are not narrowing (Cheuvront, Carter, Deruisseau, & Moffatt, 2005; Seiler, De Koning, & Foster, 2007).

    Puts, David A. “Beauty and the beast: Mechanisms of sexual selection in humans.” Evolution and Human Behavior 31.3 (2010): 157-175.”

    That is, only 1 in a 1000 women has the upper body strength of the average man.

    Men are far stronger than women. Why are we even debating this?

  220. Original Laura says:

    Julian . I remember back in the 80s that the army was trying to expand the number of specialties that women could choose but found that while practically all teenage boys could be trained to hike with a 40 pound rucksack women and girls could not do it at all . The only odd thing is that the same stupid experiments are done over and over again .The results can only be getting worse as the percentage of smaller statured people increases in the population due to immigration while all groups become fatter and less fit . The only thing I can think of is that nobody is willing to admit that the verdict is in and no further research is necessary . God help us if we get into WWIII.

  221. Tom C says:

    Women’s basketball players Glory Johnson and Brittney Griner are trying to annul their gay marriage after a month. How are the courts going to re-define the consummation of marriage for annulments?

  222. Julian O'Dea says:

    Original Laura, I assume you are talking about America. America is such a powerfully armed country that it could win wars with trained Mogwai.

    The problem is, of course, that the data I cited will be disputed. “But that is untrained women! Girls don’t get a chance to train and develop their muscles! Girls are told to do sewing and boys to chop wood! But what about her – she can arm wrestle all the boys!”

    It never stops and it will never stop, because people build careers on it.

    I suppose one day reality might intrude. But Americans, if I may say so, are constitutionally (pun noted) inclined not to admit that anyone has natural limitations.

    There is a felt need to include at least some women in these professions. Even here in Canberra, Australia, the local left wing government managed to include a woman in the local fire brigade. Last I heard she was off on maternity leave.

  223. Dale says:

    GeminiXcX:

    Thanks for the Mark 7 reference. Another passage for me to memorize. I also know Col 2:8, which also deals with depending on human tradition.

    And please do not encourage GBFM. Normally I have to agree with encouraging one another, and seek to do so myself (Heb 10:24-25). But I was enjoying the lack of his distinct flavour. But maybe that’s just me🙂

    @Retrenched
    >How much money do they make selling makeup to 20 year old college girls who want to look 35?

    Damn. That brought it down to a level even a feminist can understand!🙂

    @feericker
    >Show of hands: how many men here would harbor any romantic or sexual interest at all in any of these four women, even in a fit of hormone-driven desparation?

    The two blondes are solid 4s, physically. With feminine hair, clothing, attitudes, and jobs/tasks, they could be nice. Not top-drawer, but certainly good enough for an average man.
    Thin femininity make-over would also completely change who they are however, so your question is still valid.

    What surprised me was that, even with long-term training, the supposed “wow” amount was 242 lbs. The Olympic record for a woman is 187 kg, which is 412 lbs.
    Granted, I am much bigger, but I am no athlete. Yet, I am confident that, with little training, I would not have trouble with 242 lbs given the steel beams I carried around and lifted over my head last year. (I had to reinforce the structural strength of a building.) But I am a man. This is yet another reminder that women, even when they train long-term, just can not compete. I was saying in a restaurant that I thought the Olympics should stop being sexist. Women and men should compete in the same groups/pools, not separately. Let’s give the feminists the equality they want. The woman behind me responded by stating she wanted to kick me. Strange response for someone who believes the equality speeches they are peddling. I would love to see the top 5 female boxers / weight-lifters / rugby players square off against the top 5 males. Or 5 each from the bottom end; doesn’t matter.

    And yes Oscar, I know the small capacity of these women was not your point. I just found the supposed “victory” of the women to be unimpressive.

    @Oscar
    >The lady in the following photo is retired Olympic weightlifter (now coach) Natalie Burgener. Does she fit that description?

    That woman is not the best example for you to use. She is not built well, having more muscles than breasts.

  224. Going heavy in athletics, or weight lifting/fighting *can* make a woman look like a man, but that certainly isn’t the rule.

    Gina Carano, an actress who made her name as a woman’s MMA champion. Fairly manly way to make a name, in the female world, no?

    But she still cleans up pretty nicely.

    Another fairly well known woman’s MMA fighter, Kyra Gracie.

  225. Crap, first pic was modified to be dramatic and I wasn’t paying attention.

  226. Isa says:

    @Gunner Q
    Oy, some girls naturally don’t have curves! (Interestingly, I saw the pics of the girls and thought, wow it’d be nice to be that curvy!) I’ve been told by some people I know to gain weight to “get curvier,” but I only gain weight in my stomach. Grape on a toothpick is definitely even less feminine than “rectangle.”

    Also, never underestimate the power of sports bras/compression clothing to change shapes. It takes the girls I know that are 70J down to looking, maybe, 70C. I.e., very T&A girls become boyish looking.

  227. GeminiXcX says:

    DeNihilist

    GXcX I have noted that anal is a hallmark for really being an alphalpha on certain pua sites. If she don’t let you anal-yze her, you must be a simpering Betamax.

    Uh-huh, getting shit on your stick proves your a closet fag in my books.

    LMAO!!

    DeN, I must say I appreciate the to-the-point manner in which you express yourself.

    -GXcX

  228. Nick S says:

    @Allison,

    You are really clutching at straws in trying to draw a false equivalence here.

    When younger women date older men, there are usually a couple of dynamics at play. It may be that the woman is dating the older man because he is more financially secure and she wants access to his resources. Or it may be that the older man has some kind of status or alpha cred that women are attracted to and have greater difficulty finding in men their own age group. Either way, most people are more honest and aware of the dynamics at play. Society doesn’t bullshit or delude men about what is at play in the same way that society deludes women.

    On the other hand, older women who imagine that men still desire them the same way that they desire younger women are living in deepest fantasyland. Yet the media and wider culture go out of their way to pander to this fantasy. A woman’s SMV falls with age. A man’s SMV is not as dependent on age, and may increase with age up to a certain point.

    Moreover, some men will tolerate being used financially or otherwise in exchange for sexual favors from an attractive younger woman. They will often be aware of the tradeoffs, and less likely to feel aggrieved about it. There is no comparison between this and society deluding older women that men still desire them, and then encouraging such women to feel sorry for themselves when unscrupulous men take advantage of their delusions.

  229. Dale says:

    @Isa
    > Grape on a toothpick …

    rofl… Never heard that expression before; that’s great.

    And unfortunately, from the medical articles I have read, abdominal fat is a stronger indicator for various health issues than fat deposited throughout the body.

    I actually used to be called toothpick by my various friends/enemies.

  230. GeminiXcX says:

    @Oscar

    Not sure why you took that heat in your weightlifting-women comments.
    I’ll see if I can back you up.

    -Competitive “muscle women” in bodybuilding are on drugs.
    -Strength training, vs bodybuilding produces different body types.
    -Women of pioneer/settler days were strong and toned, due to the nature of no-modern-technology life.
    -Some female lifters are ugly, with “too much” muscular development — that’s their choice, and I would simply not date them.
    -Even if a curvy, non-muscular women starved and dehydrated herself down to “meet”-levels, to get into the desired lowest-weight class, her boobs would likely disappear and veins & definition would show.

    -As an aside, even giant muscles and a roadmap of vascular development on men isn’t “natural”.

    For the record, I can greatly out-lift the four women featured, minus the PC (former injury); and I also place full range-of-motion squat-weight on my back that would fold many men’s spines like an accordion.

    Also, regarding the picture:
    Those women are not ugly. Just gain 10-15 post-meet lbs, I think they’d fill-out a cocktail dress rather well.

    Methinks there may be some pansy-ass manlets in here who are annoyed that these female lifters aren’t couch-potatos, like they are. (Cue accusations of misandric shaming language).

    Find me in my rack or cage; we can settle any further “hating” there. Lol.

    Come to me, boyz; I’ll make men out of you yet!

    And, yes, what constitutes “strength” in women now carries a vastly different inferior and narcissistic meaning, than the truly strong and capable woman of Proverbs. Notice too, how the Proverbs- woman used her attributes to benefit her family, the prime ending being her husbandly owner being able to show his approval of her with other respectable men.

    -GXcX

  231. GeminiXcX says:

    @ Isa

    Take up power-lifting and gain some weight in the process.

    You will get a nice squat-enhanced latina-style ass, curvier thighs, and slightly wider shoulders to proportion you out better; all while avoiding your feared abdominal fat accumulation.

    Your tits can’t really get bigger (naturally, that is), but you can “improve/modify” other parts of yourself, if you are self-conscious in this regard.

    Regards, my dear.

    -GXcX

  232. GeminiXcX says:

    And if “Isa” is not a woman, I just put a massive weight-lifting shoe in my mouth.

    Uh oh.

    I guess the response will tell.

    -GXcX

  233. craig says:

    Bluepillprofessor says: “What exactly does the RCC consider Holy Scripture? I know the papal encyclicals are on the list but what about the Doctors of the Church, St. August and so on?”

    Um, no. One positive about Catholicism is that you can look it up. I’m not Catholic, but I have a lot of respect for, and agreement with, the stated faith of the Church.

    “II. The Relationship Between Tradition and Sacred Scripture”
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PL.HTM

    “IV. The Canon of Scripture”
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PR.HTM

    (One negative about Catholicism is that while you can look up what the Church professes, it usually does not match your experience of what actual live Catholics believe. Pope Benedict was a marvel of clarity but, alas, an apparent island of orthodoxy within the overall Marxist infestation of the Church. When he abdicated, the powers that be reset the calendar back to 1968 and resumed the revolution.)

  234. PokeSalad says:

    I’m not an expert coach, but you don’t have to take my word for it. Try perusing through Mark Rippetoe’s columns at PJ Media.

    I like Glenn Reynold’s website and political philosophy(ies) a great deal, but I often wonder what drug-deal he and Rip have going……..because Reynolds’ constant pimping of Rip’s strength-training empire is embarrassing at this point.

    Rip’s program is fine, but its certainly NOT the only good 5×5-style program out there.

  235. PokeSalad says:

    Given a choice between Kate Upton and a champion deadlifter, I’m pretty most men would choose the former.

    False choice. Miss Upton lifts some extraordinary weight every time she gets up from a chair.

  236. Jeremy says:

    @Anchorman

    She’s a cautionary tale for children to stay involved with their parents as they get older so they aren’t so desperate.

    I don’t agree that it is childrens responsibility for the social wellbeing of their parents, unless there is significant health concerns that restrain their parents from being social. Old people are adults, are they not? They’re capable of making friends, are they not? They’ve had years of experience at that point, right?

    I am not saying that children shouldn’t be concerned for their parents. I’m saying if someone has kids, those kids move out, and the parents find themselves lonely without kids… that’s not the kids fault, that’s the parents fault.

  237. Anchorman says:

    Um, ok.

    I have a good relationship with my parents. I wouldn’t want them feeling lonely, especially after one of them passes away. We’re talking about folks who fed me, paid for private school (Catholic grade school and high school), and have always loved me, no matter how much of a SOB I was in my 20s.

    Cat’s in the Cradle, Your Mileage May Vary, and all that.

  238. Isa says:

    @GeminiXcX
    Female last time I checked! Thanks for the advice. I’m actually pretty happy where I am now with my exercise program. I found that lifting and such didn’t reduce my waist size (near 29″ at the time) or significantly increase muscle mass, so I ended up a column. A strong column, but I wasn’t comfortable in my skin.

    I’m now doing cardio with a lot of body weight exercises (planks, pushups etc) and have a very subtle but proportional figure. I take after the side of my family that is skinny and short. Poorly muscle mass gainers, but strong for our size. My father never got above 150 and is 5″10 in a family where all men were significantly over 6ft, but worked construction for years and does ironmans as his retirement hobby.

  239. Gunner Q says:

    Isa @ July 23, 2015 at 11:23 pm:
    “(Interestingly, I saw the pics of the girls and thought, wow it’d be nice to be that curvy!)”

    Huh. They don’t look it.

    “Also, never underestimate the power of sports bras/compression clothing to change shapes.”

    Shrug, women never explained female clothing to me. They never talked to me at all.

  240. Dave says:

    When younger women date older men, there are usually a couple of dynamics at play. It may be that the woman is dating the older man because he is more financially secure and she wants access to his resources. Or it may be that the older man has some kind of status or alpha cred that women are attracted to and have greater difficulty finding in men their own age group.

    …..Or it could be that she genuinely loves him, and prefers to be with him. It is only in America that women are brainwashed to “only marry within their own age range”. In other parts of the world it is absolute nonsense. In Asia, Africa, Caribbean, etc, it is routine for women to marry much older men—I am talking about 15-20 year age difference. Fact is, with time, the difference shrinks. So an 82 year old man is married to a 65 year old woman? So what?

  241. Isa says:

    @Gunner Q
    This is the best pic I could find (less photoshopped in other words) for what shapewear can do

    while this is the difference in the bras.

    I agree that no women really talk about these things, but it’s a bit of a way they can pretend to be more attractive than they already are. I can guarantee you, 99% of beautiful curvy women with no lumps anywhere in public, industrial strength shapewear.

    Also, sorry no girls ever bothered to talk to you. I assure you we aren’t all bad, just most🙂

  242. Julian O'Dea says:

    craig

    Yes, Pope Benedict was pretty good.

    He was good on the “woman question” too.

  243. Gunner Q says:

    “I can guarantee you, 99% of beautiful curvy women with no lumps anywhere in public, industrial strength shapewear.”

    That I knew, at least. You see one “plus size” woman blow a pair of yoga pants, it scars you for life.

  244. feeriker says:

    OT, but essential reading (apologies in advance if I missed this upthread):

    http://fredoneverything.org/done-been-girled-the-price-of-matriarchy/

  245. Dale says:

    @Gunner Q
    >That I knew, at least. You see one “plus size” woman blow a pair of yoga pants, it scars you for life.

    I wanna see the YouTube video for that🙂

  246. Oscar says:

    @ GeminiXcX says:
    July 24, 2015 at 12:08 am

    “Not sure why you took that heat in your weightlifting-women comments.
    I’ll see if I can back you up.”

    I think we both know the reason why.

    “For the record, I can greatly out-lift the four women featured, minus the PC (former injury); and I also place full range-of-motion squat-weight on my back that would fold many men’s spines like an accordion.”

    The Olympic lifts require a lot more than just strength, don’t they?

    “Those women are not ugly. Just gain 10-15 post-meet lbs, I think they’d fill-out a cocktail dress rather well.”

    I suspect most of the critics would salivate from afar.

    “Methinks there may be some pansy-ass manlets in here who are annoyed that these female lifters aren’t couch-potatos, like they are.”

    Bingo!

    “Cue accusations of misandric shaming language.”

    Funny how quickly some men adopt feminists’ habits. “Stop shaming me!”

  247. Oscar says:

    I’m no longer stuck in an airport, so I haven’t had time to respond, but now that I have a few minutes, I’d like to explain my philosophy. Let’s start with a quote from one of my favorite strength coaches.

    “The vast majority of women cannot get large, masculine muscles from barbell training. If it were that easy, I would have them.” – Mark Rippetoe.

    It seems obvious that some men here think women should be weak. Apparently, they think strength is exclusively masculine and weakness is feminine. If this is true, I wonder, why does Proverbs 31 describe the ideal woman as strong… TWICE?

    17 She sets about her work vigorously;
    her arms are strong for her tasks.

    25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
    she can laugh at the days to come.

    One might argue that the scriptures refer to metaphorical strength alone. One would be wrong.

    16 She considers a field and buys it;
    out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

    Try planting a vineyard using bronze hand tools exclusively, then come back and report if strength is a necessary component of that task. That brings up another quote.

    “Every farm kid who grows up hauling hay has grown up lifting weights. Millions of kids have grown up even in this very decade of the 21st century lifting heavy loads every day as a part of making a contribution to the family business. And for about 50 years, the University of Nebraska football program has taken advantage of the results.” ~ Mark Rippetoe

    That principle applies to girls just as much as it does to boys.

    http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/assets_c/2015/07/1594-14433.html

    People – men AND women – used to strength train in the course of their daily chores (they still do throughout most of the world). A weak woman was a useless woman, just as much as a weak man was a useless man. In fact, when Abraham’s servant chose Rebekah for Isaac, one of his criteria was her willingness and capacity for hard work. In other words, he chose her in part for her strength (see Genesis 24).

    One could argue that hard physical labor is now rare in Western countries, and therefore strength is wasted on a woman. If that is true, then strength is also wasted on a man, because most men sit on their asses for a living. How much strength does that require?

    The reality is that God designed the human body – male AND female – to be strong. We know this because complex systems work best when used as designed, and a strong human body is a healthy human body, while a weak human body isn’t. And since we don’t get strong doing our daily chores anymore, we need to deliberately and intentionally seek out the most effective and efficient method to improve our strength. That method is barbell strength training.

    Strength training should begin in the teen years, as long as the kid (boy OR girl) has reached Tanner Stage IV.

    “Pediatric bone specialists know that the skeletal characteristics acquired in the adolescent and teenage phases of development are carried forward into adulthood. Stronger and bigger teenage bones beget stronger and bigger adult bones. A thicker teenage sub-cartilaginous bone layer — under the hip joint cartilage, for example — acquired through the stress of loaded work, play, and exercise is a thicker adult sub-cartilaginous bone layer, and a hip that is more resistant to osteoarthritis than that of a lazy kid/sedentary adult.” ~ Mark Rippetoe

    http://pjmedia.com/parenting/2015/07/11/the-stunt-your-growth-myth-why-your-kids-should-be-lifting-weights/?singlepage=true

    Strength is the best predictor of health and longevity in both men AND women.

    http://snowgoosechronicles.blogspot.com/2014/09/hand-grip-strength-and-longevity.html

    Muscle mass is a far better predictor of longevity than the far more commonly used BMI in both men AND women.

    http://snowgoosechronicles.blogspot.com/2014/07/muscle-mass-predicts-longevity-better.html

    Strength training is also more effective at burning fat than “cardio”

    http://snowgoosechronicles.blogspot.com/2014/12/strength-training-beats-cardio-for-fat.html

    This is particularly ironic considering that men ’round these parts complain daily about the increasing girth of American women, then turn around and clutch their pearls at the thought of a woman holding a barbell.

    Strength training doesn’t just increase muscle mass and burn fat. The stress of holding a heavy barbell on ones back or overhead thickens the tendons and ligaments, and increases bone density. If a woman wishes to avoid osteoporosis, her best bet is to pick up a barbell three times a week starting as young as possible, although late is far better than never.

    http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/04/28/strength-training-at-age-92-with-mark-rippetoe/?singlepage=true

    An ordinary woman (one that lacks the genetics of an elite athlete) can reasonably expect to deadlift 200 – 300 lb after a year or two of steady, consistent strength training.

    If you’re the average, sedentary, American male couch potato, that might be intimidating. I submit, however, that whining about women getting strong gets one nowhere, and that it’s far more productive and healthier for a man to get his ass off the couch and onto the platform and in the squat rack.

    Once a man gets his deadlift past 400 lb, he’s far more likely to cheer a girl’s 300 lb deadlift than be intimidated by it.

    Yeah, yeah, I know. Any suggestion that a man should step away from his laptop and actually – you know – improve his life is “shaming” (how feminist).

    Good luck with that.

    I’ll keep working to improve my strength and help others (men AND women) do the same.

    In the mean time, just because I know it bothers men who refuse to get off their asses and into the squat rack, here’s a clip of 19 year-old Mattie Rogers (-63kg, USA) snatching 91kg/200lb, C&Jing 110kg/242lb and cleaning 114kg/251lb at the 2015 Junior Worlds in Wrocław, Poland.

  248. Oscar says:

    Gents,

    Osteoporosis isn’t just for the ladies. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26092649

    “Men account for approximately 40% of the 9 million new osteoporotic fractures that occur annually and the lifetime fracture risk in men aged ≥ 60 years is estimated to be as high as 25%. Compared with women, men have a significantly greater risk for complications after a hip fracture, including increased morbidity, mortality, loss of independence, and rate of institutionalization, yet treatment rates are much lower in males than females.”

    From the Runner’s World article where I found the study: http://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-science/training-for-stronger-bones

    “Whether you’re a man or a woman, your bones are getting steadily weaker unless you’re doing exercises that strengthen them.

    ….

    the basic finding of the new study is that both jumping and weight-lifting were able to increase overall bone density and lumbar spine density after six months, and weight-lifting also increased hip bone density. The twice-a-week strength training program focused on exercises that load the hips and spine, such as squats, modified dead lifts, and military press.”

    Squats, deadlifts and presses. That sure sounds familiar. Grab a barbell gents and ladies, you’ll live longer and better.

  249. Oscar says:

    Some considerations for women’s strength training by Mark Rippetoe:

    “1. Women can perform a much higher percentage of their one rep max (1RM) for a set of 5 than men can.

    2. Even after concentric failure, women can continue to exert eccentric control over a load.

    3. Women can perform a 1RM personal record absolute-strength-dependent squat, press, deadlift, or bench press with less than perfect technique, which post-novice male lifters can’t usually do.”

    http://startingstrength.com/site/article/training_female_lifters_neuromuscular_efficiency#.ViCVfHpVikp

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