Gregoire vs Valenti

Rollo commented on the similarities between Sheila Gregoire and Jessica Valenti, founder of Feministing.

Let’s play the one degree of feminist separation:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/12/22/the-ugly-feminists-of-christmas/

“But…I’m not a feminist. I’m a Strong Independent Christian Woman®”

I touched on this in the original post, but it is worth showing a few bits side by side. The similarity between Gregoire’s funeral sandwich rant in Faith Today and Valenti’s Christmas rant at The Guardian is uncanny:

Valenti on feminist resentment: (actual title) No, I will NOT wrap all the presents. Why are women still responsible for the holiday joy?

Gregoire on feminist resentment:  (paraphrase) No, I will NOT make all the sandwiches. Why are women still responsible for feeding mourners?

———

Valenti on gendered expectations:

We all know that women do the majority of domestic work like child care, housework and cooking. But the holidays bring on a whole new set of gendered expectations…

Gregoire on gendered expectations:

…I must have missed the Sunday School lesson when they taught girls how to make funeral sandwiches…

 ———

Valenti on feminist guilt:

But we know that, if a present doesn’t get somewhere on time (if at all), if the cookies for the school’s holiday bake-off are store-bought, or your family holiday cards arrive just shy of February, it’s not men who get looked at askance.

Gregoire on feminist guilt:

I’m talking about hating guilt.

And when someone I don’t know from our church passes away, I invariably receive that guilt-inducing phone call: Can you make sandwiches for the funeral?

 ———

Valenti on society needing to recognize feminist progress:

After decades of feminist progress, women are still considered primarily responsible for an entire family’s holiday joy.

Gregoire on the church needing to recognize feminist progress:

Women have become busier, but church life hasn’t adapted to this new reality.

This entry was posted in Jessica Valenti, Sheila Gregoire, The Guardian, Ugly Feminists. Bookmark the permalink.

64 Responses to Gregoire vs Valenti

  1. Will S. says:

    Reblogged this on Patriactionary and commented:
    Yep. “I can’t see the difference. Can you see the difference?”, to borrow the famous line from some old Canadian ABC detergent ads.

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  3. GottliebPins says:

    But I thought women wanted to have it all? I seem to remember a song about strong independent women going off to work to earn the bacon and then coming home to fry it up in a pan. Now they don’t want to make sandwiches and complain that their men aren’t staying at home cleaning and cooking. Women must truly hate being women. They don’t have the strength or patience to be men and it wears them out just going off to the office for 8 hours. They should try working in the fields for 8 hours, or hauling bags of cement up and down all day, or being a lumberjack, or going off to the front line and taking a bullet for the cause. If you want it all you can have it all just quit bitchin about it. I never volunteered to do it all and I’m not going to. Trying to do it all would be stupid.

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  5. Anonymous Reader says:

    See, this can’t be true because Valenti is a feminist and Gregoire is not. Just ask her, she’s opposed to abortion and that’s all feminism is…

    It would be interesting to set up a debate between the two of them on some innocent topic such as “women’s work in the church”. Like the old firework instructions, “light fuse and get away”.

  6. feeriker says:

    Yes, the comparison between Sheila and Jessie is obvious. I strongly suspect that, far from feeling insulted by the comparison, Sheila would either be indifferent or consider it a badge of honor.

  7. But we know that, if a present doesn’t get somewhere on time (if at all), if the cookies for the school’s holiday bake-off are store-bought…

    Where in this country does Valenti live? I wish (just for once) I could have baked cookies for my daughter to bring to school. That would have been a great daddy-daughter “date” in the kitchen. But noooooo! The school district just assumed that I would poison all the kids who have peanut allergies. Store-bought-only was all that was ever allowed for birthday mornings and holiday parties. If it wasn’t pre-sealed at a store, the kids couldn’t touch it.

  8. The Matrix has you Churchianity.

  9. I think many people in our modern world are allergic to guilt. The logic seems to go, “If I feel guilty about something, then the problem is with the situation/other people’s expectations. I couldn’t possibly be wrong.”

    I have had my fair share of “why am I always responsible for _______?” type thoughts, regarding doing the dishes, sending the RSVPs, organising thank you cards, etc, because I am quite organisationally challenged, and these things get left to the last minute or not done at all.
    But my conclusion has always been, “this is my job, I need to do better.” Not, “who can I blame for my own incompetence?”

  10. Gotlieb,

    They don’t have the strength or patience to be men and it wears them out just going off to the office for 8 hours. They should try working in the fields for 8 hours, or hauling bags of cement up and down all day…

    My first fiance lived in a 3rd floor apartment with her mom in a Boston suburb. Her dad was frivorced and lived in Canada. Anyhow, she and I would be sitting in her mother’s kitchen listening to her neighbors screaming at each other downstairs and laughing…

    “Honey can you make me a sammich?”

    “Make your own f-cking sammich!”

    It was classic. But fiance #1 admitted to me that the guy worked construction. If she was living with him or married to him or whatever, she would have made him 3 sandwiches a day for lunch. They do the real hard work and they need fuel to keep going. It touched me that she was sensitive enough to understand how important that is for men when our women know what we need from them… and why. Feminism crushes this understanding and weakens that bond. Its terrible.

  11. Scott says:

    But my conclusion has always been, “this is my job, I need to do better.” Not, “who can I blame for my own incompetence?”

    When I was growing up, going to a very conservative Chrsitian school, (especially by todays standards–imagine the daily chapel/blue blazer with the emblem kind of school) if I brought home a note from the school, my parents were mad at me.

    But I don’t think that has been the norm for quite a while, not even when I was in school. Mostly parents are mad at the teacher for “bullying” or “picking on” their little angel.

    This is probably a big reason for the phenomenon you have identified. Guilt is a feeling that is supposed to call you to analyze yourself and your behavior. That’s why God created it.

    As a psychologist, this is of course, heresy to my collegues.

  12. okrahead says:

    This is the real problem… Sheila expects the church (and by extension Christ) to change for womynz, rather than da womynz changing for Christ. This is what separates churchianity from Christianity.

  13. GottliebPins says:

    You are exactly right Boston. What a man needs most from a woman is support and a little bit of appreciation. All it takes is a pat on the shoulder or a thank you or a how was your day and it puts us at ease and makes us want to work all that much harder to be a good husband and father. But women today feel compelled to avoid saying nice things or showing appreciation and instead complain about trivial things we might have forgotten or not done the way they would have done them. They despise themselves for being women and they are resentful of us for being men. How can you have a relationship like that? You can’t. Life is so much simpler now that I’m on my own. No more walking on egg shells and trying to decipher womenthink. It makes my head hurt.

  14. earl says:

    If women changed for Christ…the whole idea of feminism would go out the window.

    Feminism is an ethos that tells women they are powerful. Why? Who knows.
    Christ proclaimed that true power came from serving others and humbling oneself.

    So feminism is truly the zeitgeist of our times. Given enough time the church will bury it like it has done to every other false teaching and these women demanding the church change for them will be a memory.

  15. earl,

    Feminism is an ethos that tells women they are powerful. Why?

    Because of Eve.

  16. Everyone on this board is required to watch the 1966 movie “The Bible, In the beginning….” and focus on Ulla Bergryd’s perfectly Biblical adaptation of Eve. She is gorgeous. She plays the part perfectly, from the moment God tells her NOT to eat of the tree she stares at it longingly…. Then (of course) she wants to eat of it. And she does, with little hesitation.

    A woman’s instinct is to disobey husbands. God commands them to do so and Christ has come to fulfill God’s commandments but feminism tells God and Christ to go to hell. Feminism says there is no reason at all why Eve can’t eat that apple. Not only can she eat that apple, but Adam is required to obey her or ELSE Eve can get goverment to imprison Adam.

  17. earl says:

    ‘She plays the part perfectly, from the moment God tells her NOT to eat of the tree she stares at it longingly…. Then (of course) she wants to eat of it. And she does, with little hesitation.’

    Was there the Harley Badboy…aka the serpent telling her she should eat it?

    And then the serpent will sell to the Adams out there to act like him in order to get these rebellious women. Instead of men leading them to get right with God, to grow in their femininity, and become good wives for their husbands…it’s about Adam trying to become the Dark Triad Harley Badboy to continue her desouling and take a few more Eve’s along the way. Why not? It’s not like he’s going to marry her.

  18. Was there the Harley Badboy…aka the serpent telling her she should eat it?

    D-mn straight there was.

  19. feeriker says:

    But noooooo! The school district just assumed that I would poison all the kids who have peanut allergies. Store-bought-only was all that was ever allowed for birthday mornings and holiday parties. If it wasn’t pre-sealed at a store, the kids couldn’t touch it.

    [SARCASM] But of course store-bought baked goods are NEVER contaminated with dangerous impurities. There’s no risk whatsoever that peanut residue from a large commercial bakery would EVER cross-contaminate another batch of cookies. Oh no, no, no, NO … only parents who love their children and their children’s peers would ever be careless and heartless enough to indifferently poison them. [/SARCASM]

    For the purposes of avoiding stroke risk or rage fits, I try not to think about the IQ levels of the “people” who are “educating” today’s children.

  20. feeriker,

    For the purposes of avoiding stroke risk or rage fits, I try not to think about the IQ levels of the “people” who are “educating” today’s children.

    I think this is more along the lines of the school board wanting to protect “me” at the expense of the “store.” If I buy 12 sugar cookies from WalMart for daughter to bring to her class, and one student eats a cookie, has a peanut allergic reaction, stops breathing, and dies, the family of that child can sue WalMart (for putting peanuts in sugar cookies) and win. If I bake the cookies, they sue me. And win.

    Its still WRONG THINKING at the base level for the reasons that you gave, but everything boils down to money and accountability now.

  21. cynthia says:

    How black of a soul does a woman have to complain about preparing food for a funeral? Somebody is dead, and their family has been indelibly scarred. But yes, it’s all about her.

  22. Gunner Q says:

    I’m not surprised to see little difference between Christian and atheist women when the Church Itself doesn’t want that difference to exist.

  23. Ras al Ghul says:

    Tam the Bam says:

    February 25, 2015 at 5:10 pm

    “Peanuts? Salt peanuts?
    Seems the answer is “just do it”.”

    That’s people at “risk” of acquiring an allergy and an old way of fighting allergies (or poisons for that matter) involve taking low doses.

    However, knowing people that have the actual allergy, this won’t work unless killing them off is the solution you’re looking for.

    Now why there are more of them these days is the question, whether its the fact that disease and assorted other things don’t kill off the weak among us anymore, the actual vaccines doing it, the sterile life and antibacterials doing it, or there is some other factor, I don’t know but allergies seem to be on the rise.

  24. Ras al Ghul says:

    And actually Tam, when I think of it, and directly related to this post, the fact that people eat so much processed stuff instead of home cooked food these days may be the cause of it.

  25. embracing reality says:

    I think I understand where these women are coming from, I know how they’re feeling. These women don’t want even the slightest little bit of obligation in their lives to do a damn thing for the opposite sex, including their spouses. I get that because thats just exactly how I feel. I don’t want to do a damn thing for these women and I don’t want to be obligated to do *anything* for selfish shrews.

    Now, surely these women won’t have a problem with men abandoning all of our traditional obligations we were expected to perform since women can’t be bothered anymore to do any of theirs?

    Ladies,

    Are you prepared to register for a new military draft and are you prepared to fight and potentially die an excruciating, horrible death to defend your freedom and right to vote if it comes to it? Cause I sure as hell ain’t fighting for you princesses.

  26. Isa says:

    @embracing reality
    Any requirement that women register for a draft is idiotic. Not only would I be great cannon fodder, everyone in my unit would be dragged down carrying around my dead weight. No way I could carry almost 100% of my bodyweight around then fine a weapon accurately.

    The point is, people no longer seem to understand that doing a different job than someone else doesn’t mean that you are oppressed or even could perform the other job. I work in a male dominated field (90% or so), but I my brain largely works in the same way as them so I have few problems. Some women I’ve had the misfortune to work with, although they have the raw brain power for it, don’t have the *temperament*. I enjoy it the absence of females though, as women generally require far too much delicate handling, and I miss their subtle social clues. Working around bombs with unknown fuse lengths isn’t good for psychological health or project deadlines.

  27. easttexasfatboy says:

    @Embracing Reality! Let them defend themselves here! Islam is coming. They’re net literate. They know who to give a “haircut”. Let them figure out how to escape those nasty fellows. You see, this has happened before. Think of the Roman men who actually helped the barbarians. I understand it now. “I bathe in men’s tears.” My white pimply rump! Vox has a great post on the subject. Biblically speaking, what befalls some can be an example for others. Islam, for a start. Feminists don’t seem to understand that those misguided souls will kill all of them. I was raised to have fellow feeling, but I believe I’ll let the little darlings learn to run for cover. As for the difference between atheistic females and churchy females, well, the Lord did say that we would be able to recognize such ones by their fruits. He also said not to be puzzled at the burning amongst us. The Bible has always said that many are called, but few are chosen. It pointedly says that you cannot find one honest woman among a thousand. This is an eternal viewpoint, as I understand it. Remember the women in Jerusalem before 607 b.c.e. They acted the same way as the churchy “Christians ” today. Ezekiel had some things to say about what was going on. The “fruitage of lips” didn’t spare them from the famine or sword. Jeremiah describes it well. So, factually, folks, these women are doomed. When, as a young man I read in the Bible about such things, I had no idea what it meant. Certain patterns of thought were displayed. Proud, haughty women who were stripped and their heads shaved, before they met their fate. The Assyrians were used as divine retribution. Point is, as Paul said, these things went on befalling them as examples, right? Personally, I reckon it would be better to be Valenti than Gregoire. Like it says, judgment starts in the house of God first.

  28. @Scott
    This is probably a big reason for the phenomenon you have identified. Guilt is a feeling that is supposed to call you to analyze yourself and your behavior. That’s why God created it.
    As a psychologist, this is of course, heresy to my collegues.

    Yes, that is an odd thing to hear from a psychologist!
    I liken guilt to the feeling of pain you get when you put your hand on a hot stove. The pain is telling you to stop doing that thing!

  29. Oscar says:

    You’ve got to be kidding me.

  30. embracing reality says:

    Isa said: “Any requirement that women register for a draft is idiotic. Not only would I be great cannon fodder, everyone in my unit would be dragged down carrying around my dead weight. No way I could carry almost 100% of my bodyweight around then fine a weapon accurately.”

    It must then be quite a revelation to you that many industrialized countries in the world require both men and women to participate in military conscription or draft. One obvious example is the nation of Israel.

    Wikipedia “Conscription exists in Israel for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18, although non-Druze Arab citizens of Israel are exempt; other exceptions are made on religious, physical or psychological grounds (see Profile 21). The normal length of compulsory service is currently three years for men and two years for women.”

    This is also old news “In 1949, after the founding of the State of Israel, the Defense Service Law gave the IDF the authority to enlist any citizen. Draftees would then be required to show up for the draft in accordance with the military’s decision to enlist them. Under this law, the period of service for men was 30 months and for women 18 months.”

    Being the brilliant military strategist you presume yourself to be you must surely know that in any conflict situation roughly 20% of troops are actually involved in combat while the rest of military personnel are in support logistics, materials, food, medical etc leaving plenty of positions available to fight for the cause without actually pulling a trigger. However WOMEN ARE IN COMBAT NOW, even for the US military. If women want equality then by God they need to woman-up. If they suffer horrible consequences as a result then thats the price to vote for freedom.

  31. greyghost says:

    A woman’s body gets blown apart and burns just as easily as a mans. Yeah I’m all for women getting drafted.

  32. Boxer says:

    Just in case Sheila didn’t know she was being deconstructed…

    I encourage all you guys to get a twitter account, by the way. It’s great fun to rub the radfem’s noses in their own contradictory nonsense.

  33. Pirran says:

    Well, it’s all conflated now. Here’s the perfect Christian Feminist’s view (from an erstwhile right wing/libertarian paper) on the new gendered expectations.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11429438/Mars-One-mission-My-boyfriend-is-cool-with-me-going-to-Mars.html

  34. Isa says:

    @embracing reality

    Of course I know that. I’ve known and worked with many women in the USMC, RAF, and of course IDF in a professional capacity. HOWEVER intentionally putting your most fertile women into harms way is civilizational suicide. Or at the very least an example that the country is facing an existential threat, and all people must be mobilized. Hence why teenage girls were widely used as snipers by the USSR in WWII (because all their men were used as cannon fodder by Stalin), and why Japanese and German civilians were all trained to fight to the death (as required by the philosophical death cults of their regimes). Israel is constantly under the threat of annihilation, so of course all women must be trained.

    What may be a good policy in certain specific circumstances cannot be generalized.

    P.S. T’isn’t a good idea to imply that people are uneducated without knowing their background. It just sounds bitchy.

  35. earl says:

    ‘A woman’s body gets blown apart and burns just as easily as a mans. Yeah I’m all for women getting drafted.’

    Yeah they won’t be on the front lines I can tell you that. They’ll do paper pushing or handling phone calls for sarge before fighting in battle.

  36. Cane Caldo says:

    I had to read this post again.

    Gregoire and Valenti’s writing is lazy and formulaic. I’ll let TFH postulate when bots make them redundant, but in the meantime I’ll note that (what I now dub) blotching is a dietary staple for women online. Husbands and fathers who want peace in their homes must combat it; even if it means pulling the plug.

  37. PokeSalad says:

    I’m shocked………that he thinks ‘opinion’ has two Ls.

  38. PokeSalad says:

    argh, I meant “Ps”……dammit, no edit function here. :p

  39. embracing reality says:

    Isa said: “Any requirement that women register for a draft is idiotic.”

    Later Isa said: “P.S. T’isn’t a good idea to imply that people are uneducated without knowing their background. It just sounds bitchy.”

    Imply people are uneducated? Isn’t that exactly what you initially did? ‘Idiotic”? Yeah, I’m done with this, you white knight jackass. Incidentally women, as the largest voting block, with the free power to vote but not defend it, will likely be voting hillary clinton in as your presidential leader if you live in the US. If that happens just remember men like you are the reason why.

  40. MarkyMark says:

    If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and walks like a duck…

  41. Here is another clue that Evangelical Feminists ARE NOT disciples of Christ. They don’t take up their cross daily. The don’t hear and obey the voice of their Master. If God want’s them to make sammiches they should make sammiches, if He doesn’t where is the guilt in saying “No”?

    What a load of human centered garbage.

  42. Yoda says:

    Gregoire bathes in the deceased relative’s tears she does.

  43. Lyn87 says:

    embracing reality,

    You and Isa are talking past each other. Isa is a woman who works on the technical side as a defense contractor, and she’s worked with the military in countries that draft women and/or allow them in/near combat.

    I think you’re coming at this from a sociological standpoint: “If women experienced the bad side of equality and had the same responsibilities as men, not only would it show that women can’t do what men can do, but women would run away screaming.” That’s true, and I imagine Isa would agree with it.

    She’s coming at it from the capabilities standpoint: “Woman are not capable of doing what men do, so putting them into combat is going to get a bunch of men and women killed, and would reduce militarily effectiveness.” That’s also true, and I imagine you’d agree with that.

  44. Gunner Q says:

    Like Lyn, while I agree women need to either stop pretending to be men or accept the duties along with the perks, Isa is right about conscription being demographically suicidal. It isn’t white knighting to keep women out of places they don’t belong.

    That’s why I don’t use “male-only draft” arguments. Imagine women serving compulsory military service in a newly redesignated “Henhouse Wing” of the Pentagon or crewing the Navy’s new Child Care-class frigates. You know that’s how it would play out. Not even the IDF wants to keep women in uniform for long.

    Then again, enlistment rates would skyrocket if every enlisted grunt was assigned his own female “battle buddy”. Why haven’t the Japanese tried this to stop their demographic decline? Imagine the JDF advertising campaign. “Embrace your hidden power. Learn the way of your sword. Conquer virgin territory. Create new nations in your own image. Join the greatest of your ancestors. Now with reenlistment bonuses for unlocked achievements!”

  45. Isa says:

    @ Gunner Q

    I believe the Japanese already tried this. Comfort women anyone? The interesting side of Japan is that families with children tend to be 3+ and they import women to be wives from poor Asian countries.

    And yes, complete segregation of the sexes would be a necessity in a total draft scenario unless we want a lot of… “accidents”

    Also @Lyn87 Thank you for the clarification, I don’t disagree with what you said in the slightest!

    I also have my first credit as both a man and a White Knight! Something all women must dream of!!! If only I was trans-gendered two spirit with polysexual tendencies:)

  46. Isa says:

    @embracing reality
    I’m sorry for not clarifying my initial comment that that requirement *as public policy* is idiotic, not that you yourself are. I’m notorious for not understanding how people can read into and personalize my comments, so I do apologize. The P.S. note was just attempting to explain that replying rather aggressively and impolitely is not an effective way to make your point.

    Also thank you for the requisite White Knight merit badge eventually acquired by all commenters on misandry. It’s my first and I needed a bit of a laugh after a quite annoying meeting with marketing🙂 Nothing like being accused of a man when working with all men! Quite a compliment actually🙂

  47. Lyn87 says:

    Isa writes,

    Nothing like being accused of a man when working with all men! Quite a compliment actually”🙂

    I was talking to my mother a few weeks ago and she said that the greatest compliment anyone ever paid her was when someone told her that she “thinks like a man.”

    Not having any sisters, or even female cousins who lived nearby, I was slow to realize that the vast majority of women don’t think like men. My wife does as well, or else I might well have ended up with someone else.

  48. Elspeth says:

    the vast majority of women don’t think like men.

    Are you implying that we should? I certainly hope not.

  49. Elspeth says:

    I hit “post” too soon. My point Lyn87, is that the answer for the problems we see in modern western womanhood is NOT for women to “think like men”. Virtuous, godly femininity should be the goal, not for women to try and be like men in any way. That’s what got us into this mess to begin with.

  50. Lyn87 says:

    Elspeth,

    What I mean by “think like a man” is logically rather than emotionally.

    A few years ago I had to get certified to administer the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator assessment. The MBTI “scores” you on four different dichotomies regarding how you gather and process information, and one of the dichotomies is “Thinking versus Feeling.” Each of the other three dichotomies was split about evenly for men and women, but the T/F dichotomy was very skewed: with women making up the vast majority of “Feelers” and men making up the vast majority of “Thinkers.”

    That should not surprise anyone over the age of about three, but that is a highly politically-incorrect thing to say… even though everybody knows it’s true. So the MBTI people 1) changed the questions that pertain to the T/F dichotomy and 2) redefined what the categories mean. It’s no longer “think with your head” (“male” thinking) versus “think with your heart” (“female” thinking).

    After the juggling that dichotomy is now about 50/50 for men and women, and an “F” in that category now means that when you have to make a decision that you naturally prefer to default to values over data. For “T’s” it’s the other way around.

    But just because society and the MBTI people bow to PC pressure doesn’t mean that I have to here: the women in my life think with their heads. That’s all I was saying – it has nothing to do with femininity.

  51. Lyn87,

    What I mean by “think like a man” is logically rather than emotionally.

    At the beginning of the 20th century, it was this very argument (logic vs emotion) that Congress and Parliment in the United States, Australia, Canada, and the UK, were discussing as to whether or not the Women’s Suffrage movement was right in enfranchising women (federally) with “the vote.” The debate was simple enough, the fact that women (generally) think emotionally and NOT logically, is that enough reason to continue denying women the right to vote? This was the first true wave of feminism. And the feminists won because the emotional thinking argument was not sufficent to continue denying women Suffrage. Right or wrong. And here we are today.

    I’m with Ann Coulter. She says its just a pipe dream of hers but she wishes her gender was denied the right to vote. She is basically saying women voting ends Western Civilization through loose fiscal policy and the absense of morality. We can’t let them eat apples and then mandate that the whole nation eat them too….

  52. Elspeth says:

    the women in my life think with their heads. That’s all I was saying – it has nothing to do with femininity.

    INFJ here, by the way. And of course it has something to do with femininity. The fact that women are more likely to skew “F” and men more likely to skew “T” certainly speaks to that.

    One can be a “feeler” and learn to think with her head, but the goal (for the believer) is to live a life of obedience to the word, which is certainly possible even for the most emotional woman.

    I take exception to your position because our feminine and masculine natures are a part of our God-given designs and the fact that women choose to use their feeling natures in ways out of step with their purpose doesn’t mean that the world would be a better place if all women thought like men, more logically. There is a place for feelings, and knowing how to respond to those feelings is far more appropriate than deciding that we would better off if we didn’t have them.

    And I don’t say this because I am an emotional type. Long time readers of my blogs know that my mother died the day I was born and I was left with my father and three brothers from the time I was 3 when my sister left home till my father remarried (to a VERY unemotional woman) when I was 10. I don’t radiate emotionalism, and my father frowned on tears not connected with a death so I’ve learned not to cry much. And temper tantrums? Unacceptable. All that to say that even a “feeler” can be taught to live a controlled life without giving way to every feeling. 2 Corinthians 10:5 even shows us how to do it.

    Lastly, it is certainly possible for a “feeling” woman to think with her head, but more important than that is for her to accept her role in the marital/familial hierarchy so that this nature of hers can flourish rather than be a source of instability and rebellion. That is a far greater alternative than learning to think like a man.

  53. Elspeth says:

    My husband finds my feeling nature a source of solace, comfort, and very commonly amusement. And he still trusts me enough to delegate day to day management of the home without worries that I am so illogical that I am going to screw something up.

  54. Lyn87 says:

    Elspeth,

    Unless you’ve been through the training, you don’t understand what the MBTI tells a person trained in administering it – I do. Nobody (least of all me) is suggesting that T/F is some sort of toggle switch. Thinkers feel and feelers think. The dichotomies show the default preference in most situations.

    There is some debate (although the MBTI people will deny it to the high heavens), that one’s “score” on the dichotomies gives not only one’s absolute preference, but one’s relative preference for one or the other. Personally, I think there is merit to the objection, since the closer you are to a 50/50 split for a dichotomy, the more likely you are to show the opposite preference when you take the assessment at a different time.

    As for the way the questions used to be asked: yes, as I said, it will surprise no-one that women were more likely to be “Feelers” and men were more likely to be “Thinkers.” But, as I also said, thinkers feel and feelers think, and about 25% of women came up as “T’s” and about 1/3 of men (if memory serves) came up as “F’s.”

    One can score “high” on the “F” side and still be an excellent thinker, and one can score “high” on the “T” side and experience the full range of human emotions as deeply as anyone. Even before the PC-rewrite, that dichotomy measured ones default preference for decision-making, not whether women can think or men can emote. While there was a marked difference between the sexes, I posit that what Myers and Briggs uncovered was a matter of degree rather than kind. Note all the qualifiers in this next statement:

    Most women typically tend to default to emotion and most men typically tend to default to facts as they understand them… on average… usually.

  55. Oscar says:

    @TFH says:
    February 25, 2015 at 11:57 pm

    “That guy might very well be satire… He might not be a true-believer mangina.”

    I sincerely hope you’re right.

  56. Oscar says:

    To those calling for a female draft…

    Please stop. The military has enough problems already. I understand the desire to see feminists put up AND shut up, but those of us who’ve actually fought wars mostly want all sides to stop playing social engineering games with something as important as the military.

  57. Isa says:

    @Lyn87
    ISTJ here, and it shows! Perhaps that should be part of the focus with women is explaining logical arguments for better life choices. I find I have to walk them through very much step by step, but at the end they can see the proper path. Approaching most women merely with “the data shows you are 60% more likely to be happy if you make xyz choice” is like talking to a brick wall.

    As for “thinking like a man” it also (for me) means that I am an effective team member because I don’t drag other people into the muck of extremely different communication and thinking styles. They also don’t need to filter and can be indelicate, which for a bunch of engineers is very important. I’m quite a poor female in the sensitivity department, but (comparatively) more F than my teammates or Mr. Isa.

  58. Lyn87 says:

    Isa,

    The Bible supports your view. To wit, Titus 2: 3-5 reads as follows [emphasis added], “The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    The things that young women are to learn in that passage could be taught to them by anyone (indeed, they could just read those three verses themselves) – but Paul does not assign that teaching to Titus, or elders, or even to their husbands, but rather to older, respected women in the church.

    When I used to teach junior high / high school I would occasionally have some students who would understand a concept immediately and some who didn’t understand it at all. After trying a few different ways to explain it, I would usually tell one of the students who “got it” to come up and explain it to the rest of the class. What usually happened is that the student would come up and explain it the same way I did – often using my exact words – and the other students would suddenly understand. My usual response was, “Oh, Come on! That’s exactly what I said!” And we’d all have a good laugh and move on.

    When women are making foolish choices, often the person in the best position to show them the error of their ways is another women – someone who has proved herself worthy of emulation.

  59. Katie says:

    Women don’t get looked at askance (painful use of passive verb, btw) when Christmas cards are sent out late?

    That’s because only women care about these things. I can’t remember the last time I heard a man talk or saw him post about needing to get Christmas cards out. We could try to get those who care to look askance at the *husband,* but I guess that’s just not how it works.

    So, if as a woman, you hate those “askance” looks, just determine to free yourself from the expectations. Maybe post that you will not be able to do Christmas cards this year. Or whatever. In the end, *no one* is harmed…it’s just one fewer notch for you on busy-woman accomplishments. You can live with that, right?

    **OK, make an exception for relatives who aren’t seeing your pictures on instagram, facebook, etc., who are truly interested in pictures. But do so on a schedule that works for you.

  60. johnmcg says:

    Are men or women giving this “askance” looks?

    Seems to follow the same pattern — invent a crisis, dive to save it, then be bitter about being the only one who cares about it.

  61. Pingback: Feminist self loathing | Dalrock

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