This means war.

A reader recently asked for my thoughts on the upcoming Kendrick brothers movie “War Room”.  After doing some digging on the movie, my initial thought was of the line from the Tropic Thunder spoof about overdone sequels:

Here we go again.

Again.

War Room is the latest “Christian” movie from the Kendrick brothers, and from the information available it stays true to the theme of the last two (Fireproof and Courageous).  Modern secular culture loves to denigrate husbands and fathers, portraying them as clueless buffoons.  Yet modern Christian culture has a much deeper level of contempt for husbands and fathers than secular culture does.  As a result the Christian movies tearing down husbands and fathers tend to be much darker than their secular counterparts.  Fireproof reveled in the power no fault divorce gives wives over their husbands, in a cross-dressing presentation of biblical headship and submission modern Christians couldn’t get enough of.  Courageous was even darker, but equally loved.  Somewhat lighter was Mom’s Night Out, which more closely aped the secular mocking of buffoonish husbands and fathers, but it had a more subtle darker side as well.

Even the feminists at Dame were startled by the contempt modern Christians have for fathers:

And that’s the biggest problem with Moms’ Night Out: The moral of the story isn’t that the women are supposed to stay home and not have fun, but that the men are totally hapless morons without them around—and that this lesson is still being drilled into our heads in 2014. We’re supposed to feel better about this “men are total idiots, the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world” philosophy (and that latter piece of wisdom was actually uttered in the movie in case you missed the point). But this story of the helpless manchild is a disservice to men—and families—everywhere.

All I have to share on War Room is an early piece of advertising for it, but it does appear that the movie will remain true to modern Christian culture:

My guess is that the advice to the wife is intended to brush close enough to “win him over without a word” to allow supporters to rationalize that it is teaching the message of 1 Pet 3:1-6

Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror.

It is possible that the Kendrick brothers will make a U-turn and actually teach biblical roles in marriage.  However, based on the preview, their past presentations, and the strong preferences of modern Christians I’m not optimistic.  My guess instead is that the advice to the wife is a headfake towards submission while teaching her that her job is not to cultivate a quiet gentle spirit, but to become a warrior praying for her no good husband to get his act together.

Here we go again.

Again.

I would of course be delighted to be proven wrong.

This entry was posted in Attacking headship, Church Apathy About Divorce, Courageous, Denial, Fireproof, Kendrick Brothers, Submission, Turning a blind eye, War Room. Bookmark the permalink.

98 Responses to This means war.

  1. Pingback: This means war. | Manosphere.com

  2. I recently had a thought on why it is that Christians seem to be worse on men and fathers then culture in general, and it hit me. The attack on masculinity rose in the context of a Christian culture. To gain traction it had to make use of half truths, and in this case the truth halfs were truths reveled in divine revelation, so as to specifically attack the church. These same attacks are not effective to a secular culture as the truth half of the lies is less convincing than the lie half.

    So that’s why it’s so bad in Christian culture and the resistance has primarily come from the atheist community. And it makes sense that man hating feminism really only has any traction in communities that are either defined as Christian or defined as hating Christians.

  3. Pingback: This means war. | Neoreactive

  4. Anchorman says:

    Based on what I saw in the clip, there’s no reason to think they changed their script.

  5. Anonymous Reader says:

    Someone named Beth Moore is in the clip, apparently a popular writer of books for church going people. A little searching turned up some opinion

    http://info.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/a-prophet-for-an-un-discerning-church#.VLVnvCvF9IN

  6. Jvarr says:

    It really disturbs me how little $$ is spent by Christians in creating media/art–particularly given the history.

    If you want to create a Cathedral, you go to a top line architect… If you want to paint the ceiling, you hire a Michelangelo etc… As much as I can criticize these Kendrick Bros.–this is what happens when you completely neglect that part of proselytizing. Art/Storytelling is the most powerful medium of communication. The early Christians engaged in storytelling. They didn’t pass out copies of the OT and expect everyone to read and sign up.

    I know American Christians have immense wealth but you wonder where it all goes these days.

  7. Dalrock says:

    @Jvarr

    It really disturbs me how little $$ is spent by Christians in creating media/art–particularly given the history.

    If you want to create a Cathedral, you go to a top line architect… If you want to paint the ceiling, you hire a Michelangelo etc… As much as I can criticize these Kendrick Bros.–this is what happens when you completely neglect that part of proselytizing. Art/Storytelling is the most powerful medium of communication. The early Christians engaged in storytelling. They didn’t pass out copies of the OT and expect everyone to read and sign up.

    I know American Christians have immense wealth but you wonder where it all goes these days.

    The problem is not the slickness of the delivery of the message. The problem is the message modern Christians have to share. The Kendrick brothers movies get noticeably better with each iteration. I think Alex Kendrick in particular is a talented moviemaker and does an excellent job of acting in his own movies. He did a far better job playing the bad husband in Courageous than Kirk Cameron did playing the bad husband in Fireproof.

    The problem is the contempt for biblical roles in marriage and the amplification of the modern feminist contempt for husbands and fathers. Getting better at tearing down husbands and fathers wouldn’t be an improvement.

  8. MarcusD says:

    MPs ratify anti-violence against women convention
    http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/196143,MPs-ratify-antiviolence-against-women-convention

    According to Bishop Tadeusz Pieronek, the convention aims at eliminating “all the traditions rooted in the Polish family”. “I have lived through Nazism and communism. I will live through the gender ideology as well,” he said.

  9. Bluepillprofessor says:

    On the Red Pill somebody suggested a litmus test for a prospective wife that you may want to add to your list Dalrock. If she expresses ANY sympathy for Fireproof or Courageous or argues for their value it is neeeexxxt!

    @Jvar: “It really disturbs me how little $$ is spent by Christians in creating media/art”

    It is not about the money, it is about the ideology of Cultural Marxism and it’s demon child, the continuing Original Sin known as Feminism. ANY film that portrays a strong, heroic father as a sturdy and honorable Church elder with a competent helpmeet for his wife would make tons of money but they won’t make it. Not even so called “Christian” directors will make it.

  10. Jeremy says:

    So, let me understand clearly. Just from watching the trailer and listening to the lines the actors are saying to each other….

    When a man has a problem with how is wife is treating him, his recommended course of action is to just accept her behavior because “he married her.”

    When a woman has a problem with how she feels she is being treated, the recommended course of action is, “pray to god.”

    Yeah, seems pretty clear which party is being asked to do anything to solve the problems, and which party is “blameless” and thus needs to pray to god that someone else fixes things.

    Faith is fine, but it’s truly stunning how evil like this can be hidden riding inside unquestioned faith.

  11. Alyosha says:

    “ANY film that portrays a strong, heroic father as a sturdy and honorable Church elder with a competent helpmeet for his wife would make tons of money but they won’t make it.”

    It’s been made frequently but the atrocious hypocrisy of the man and the pathological obsequiousness of the woman is always exposed by the end of the story.

    Any good Christian man in any modernist work is invariably exposed as the domineering/hypocritical/crazy fraud that everyone (rightly) suspected him to be from his introduction.

  12. Dalrock

    You are surely correct about where this goes. The clip and the context of the other movies make it crystal clear.

    The guy is a workaholic with too much swag.

    The wife’s “nagging” wont be nagging at all. It will be her craving his attention and affection. the man will look as evil as a guy kinking a lame stray dog as he rejects her. If they actually showed what nagging is like they couldnt reframe it.

    The grandma says “its time to kick out the REAL enemy”. That means as you said pray for the husbands comeuppance and subsequent sorting out. Heck they may even throw in the wife ogling some nice Christian dude in a bookstore because he is reading the cover of the latest equivalent of The Love Dare.

    She is to pray pray pray pray that her husband get fixed.

    Funny, Kendrick quotes scripture about praying alone “in a closet”. Kendrick would be a huge advocate for men praying with their wives. then he writes movies that explain preceicely why so many Christian husbands eschew doing that, knowing that they are being judged even as they pray. Praying gets them a few points, like in school getting 5 points for showing up. But that man has to pass the wife’s test, and the praying is her peak into how she thinks he is doing spiritually.

  13. Sheesh many misspelled words. Hopefully it is readable

  14. Scott says:

    Somebody has daddy issues.

  15. The main plot vehicle will be the infighting married couple, the man’s heart eventually “softening” to his wife’s ‘correctness’ in praying for him to change. Her “breaking in the spirit” and praying as momma said she ought will be the catalyst for his spirit being broken and then called away from his predictable, archetypal male, pride in his status and job.

    Male pride in status is the most easily digestible sin for churchianity. Sprinkled throughout the main plot will be subplots that allude to more easily digestible ‘truisms’ churchians like to feel indignation over: prayer in school, possibly some foreigner who’s grateful to be in the US instead of his homeland where prayer was outlawed, another subplot about some life change that comes after an unbeliever goes up for an alter call, etc.

    Churchian movies are required to hit all the points on the Christianese map to really satisfy the niche. Every important highlight has to be mentioned in order for the audience to identify with the message.

  16. Rollo is attempting to illustrate some sort of predictable template (no doubt there is a predictable template) you have managed to write just another predictable template.

  17. Cane Caldo says:

    I support your head-fake theory.

    Either way, I could not support them until they said, “Man, we really gave husbands and fathers a raw deal in our earlier movies. We shouldn’t have done that.”

  18. Dear Dalrock,

    The reeducation camp has been working well! I have gotten rid of my my o’s in my lzzoozlzozozles which are now simply lzlzlzlzlzlllzlzlzl and the l’s and z’s should go soon too.

    I have some great news.

    I will be delivering my first church sermon this Sunday up here in Seattle, and I have been rehearsing it in front of drinking buddies:

    Have a great weekend!

  19. Cane Caldo says:

    @Empath

    Funny, Kendrick quotes scripture about praying alone “in a closet”. Kendrick would be a huge advocate for men praying with their wives. then he writes movies that explain preceicely why so many Christian husbands eschew doing that, knowing that they are being judged even as they pray.

    Boom.

  20. Dalrock says:

    @Anon Reader

    Someone named Beth Moore is in the clip, apparently a popular writer of books for church going people. A little searching turned up some opinion

    http://info.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/a-prophet-for-an-un-discerning-church#.VLVnvCvF9IN

    I looked up the actress who plays the wife (Priscilla Shirer) on wiki, and she along with Moore is associated with LifeWay:

    Priscilla is married to Jerry Shirer, former Hilton Hotels executive. Together the Shirers established Going Beyond Ministries, a speakers’ bureau of Bible teachers, including Priscilla. Now the parents of three young boys, the Shirers share ministry and family responsibilities. While Priscilla continues to minister full-time, Jerry manages her schedule and other business aspects of Going Beyond Ministries.[1])

    Priscilla speaks around the United States at churches and other events, including the LifeWay Christian Resources-sponsored Going Beyond conference and Deeper Still:[2] The Event, where she shares the stage with Beth Moore[3] and Kay Arthur.[4]

    I don’t know anything about LifeWay, but I would guess some others here are familiar and can fill us in.

    As far as I can tell Shirer doesn’t call herself a pastor, but only her name is prominently featured in the Going Beyond Ministries web page.

    Shirer is the daughter of a megachurch pastor in Dallas:

    The daughter of Dr. Tony Evans, senior pastor of Oak Cliff Bible Fellowship Church in Dallas, Texas, Priscilla grew up well acquainted with the Bible.

  21. Dalrock says:

    I see that Shirer is also the woman whom the Kendrick brothers chose to write the Courageous resolution for women.

  22. Anonymous Reader says:

    I see that Shirer is also the woman whom the Kendrick brothers chose to write the Courageous resolution for women.

    Ding! Ding! Ding! That ties it all up in a neat package.

    The Courageously Fireproof in the War Room

  23. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    LifeWay is a bookstore chain, and part of the Southern Baptist Convention. It used to be called “Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention”, and the bookstores were called simply “The Baptist Bookstore”.

    Then in June of 1998 the SBC came out in support of husbands as heads of households; cementing their reputation as backwards, thoughtless thugs.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/10/us/southern-baptists-declare-wife-should-submit-to-her-husband.html

    By June of 1999, they changed the name from anything related to Baptists, to LifeWay. At this same time, “seeker-friendly” churches in the Willow Creek style are gaining popularity.

    [D: Thank you.]

  24. “My guess instead is that the advice to the wife is a headfake towards submission while teaching her that her job is not to cultivate a quiet gentle spirit, but to become a warrior praying for her no good husband to get his act together.”

    Do you not think a wife can be submissive and pray for change in her husband at the same time?

  25. MarcusD says:

    In the comments, some feminist tries to differentiate between “mild sexism” and “actual sexism”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksmnk2Eic80

    I think people are becoming inoculated to critical theory.

  26. Renee Harris says:

    Ok no write this in 45 mins it took me to proof read and Edit;
    Only half joking about darlock writing it:
    Darlock can you write this movie: 24 yr old godly men wants to get married. At first . he make play for church sluts buts soon learn they just want a big ring, a costly wedding and to screw without sinning .
    Just as our protagonist starts to loose hope he meets a red pill man ei he ruling his home, wife knows her place ect. Red pill take protagonist under his wing. protagonist learn to live his life base on “word of God talks everything else walks. ”
    There needs to be a feminist in power over protagonist who is dethrone and she can’t be a relative . Her power is given to protagonist
    And the icing on the cake is the only godly young woman protagonist can find is red bills sweet Virgin submissive obeying smart uncollege 17 yr old daughter who turn 18 half way ( read can married our. protagonist) thru movie
    Please please

  27. Dalrock says:

    @seriouslyserving

    My guess instead is that the advice to the wife is a headfake towards submission while teaching her that her job is not to cultivate a quiet gentle spirit, but to become a warrior praying for her no good husband to get his act together.

    Do you not think a wife can be submissive and pray for change in her husband at the same time?

    Of course she can. But there is a profound difference between a submissive wife faithfully praying for her husband and what this movie appears to be selling*. Can you seriously not see this?

    *Again, I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

  28. Boxer says:

    The best thing you Protestant bros can do is to quit going to these shitfest excuses for real cinema. Politely tell your friends and family about them and get them to quit going, also.

    If you must watch this crap, just download it off the torrent sites and laugh at it, then make sure you delete immediately, lest some simpleminded scrub find it on the hard drive and get infected with the feminist memes.

    Renee writes:

    Just as our protagonist starts to loose hope he meets a red pill man ei he ruling his home, wife knows her place ect. Red pill take protagonist under his wing. protagonist learn to live his life base on “word of God talks everything else walks. ”

    I’d buy a copy of that film, actually. Isn’t that Sam Botta fellow in the film industry? It’d be hella cool to see a bunch of you guys try something like this out. I doubt it’d be worse acted or produced than that Kirk Cameron atrocity.

  29. ST says:

    I’ve only seen one Kendrick Brothers movie – Courageous – and I thought it was dumb, so I’ve never watched another and won’t watch this one. But Priscilla Shirer is someone I’m familiar with.

    As far as I can tell Shirer doesn’t call herself a pastor, but only her name is prominently featured in the Going Beyond Ministries web page.

    She isn’t a pastor, and only her name is featured because she is a women’s conference speaker. She’s a staple in any Christian Women’s Ministry. And her books are perfectly good Bible teaching, usually having to do with prayer or discernment or somesuch. On marriage, she writes to women:

    Prepare yourself to follow the leadership of your husband. Don’t take the reins of the relationship after you say, “I DO.” If he planned dates and took initiative in other areas of your life together before marriage, then allow him the same courtesy after marriage. Let him lead. If you become the leader in your relationship at some point, then he will stop fighting for his role and let you have it. Only then will you realize the huge mistake you have made. You will wake up one day and wonder what happened to the strong man you married. Allow him control even if it means he makes decisions that you don’t particularly care for. Follow Him graciously even as he learns from his own mistakes. You will be rewarded with a husband who is secure in his leadership, and as a result wants to romance you, love you, serve you, and value your ideas and opinions in your life and marriage.

    Priscilla highly recommends: “A Marriage Without Regrets” by Kay Arthur, “Liberated Through Submission” by Bunny Wilson and “The Surrendered Wife” by Linda Doyle.

    Some will quibble over her use of the words “let” or “allow”, but I think she means it in the sense of “let him get on with leading without having to get in a big fight with you about it first”.

  30. “Of course she can. But there is a profound difference between a submissive wife faithfully praying for her husband and what this movie appears to be selling*. Can you seriously not see this?

    *Again, I would be delighted to be proven wrong.”

    Yes, I see what you’re saying.
    My question was more removed from the movie itself, as there will be flaws in any movie and the way it portrays human relationships.
    The reality is, in life, some women do have bad husbands – whether this is due to poor choice on their part or the husband falling away from the Lord – and I think a big part of those women fulfilling their helper role would be to pray for him to change.
    Thankfully, this is not the case for me, but even my husband is not perfect.
    To be perfectly honest, most of the time when I pray for my husband to change in some way, the Lord ends up changing my heart instead/as well. This has been true for other women I have spoken to as well, so it will be interesting to see if this aspect (of the wife also needing to change) comes out in the movie.

  31. MarcusD says:

    Swedish man apologizes to woman who thought he was a rapist
    http://www.thelocal.se/20150206/scared-stockholm-woman-causes-national-sexism-stir

    “But THAT she should have to run, there are no words to explain how sad that makes me. Together we have to make sure future generations of girls don’t have to run. You’re done running now. Us men need to take our bloody responsibility to make sure that no one has to run any more. I hope that all you other men who read this are with me and will help make this a reality.”

  32. DeNihilist says:

    Well Dal, it appears that the EU is trying to out do the Church –

    http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/196143,MPs-ratify-antiviolence-against-women-convention

  33. DeNihilist says:

    “To overcome such gender roles, Article 12 (1) frames the eradication of prejudices, customs, traditions and other practices which are based on the idea of the inferiority of women or on stereotyped gender roles as a general obligation to prevent violence.” – See more at: http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/196143,MPs-ratify-antiviolence-against-women-convention#sthash.zWPwce9Z.dpuf

  34. DeNihilist says:

    Er, as usual, Marcus D was way affront of me on this….

  35. DeNihilist says:

    BPP – “ANY film that portrays a strong, heroic father as a sturdy and honorable Church elder with a competent helpmeet for his wife would make tons of money but they won’t make it. Not even so called “Christian” directors will make it.”

    Maybe we should see if Mel Gibson is interested, as he went against all of hollyweird to do “The Passion”, which of course was a huge hit. You never know.

  36. Gurney Halleck says:

    *off-topic*

    Semi-social conservative W. Bradford Wilcox on the cause of the rise of out of work men!

  37. Spike says:

    Another Christian movie where the font of biblical wisdom is an old women – just like “Old Fashioned”.
    Would it not be better for the wife’s FATHER to tell her how he got on with his nagging, harpie wife all those years ,and how SHE needed to pursue prayer, starting with repentance for being a “StrongIndependetBlackWomanWhoDon’tNeedNoMan!”

    Considering that women’s sinfulness has destroyed the black community, with over 70% of children being born out of wedlock and black men being the majority of the prison population despite being only 12% (?) of the country’s population, this would be valid. This isn’t going to happen, and it won’t because it might tell the TRUTH about Christian marriages. It also won’t sell, because women won’t go to watch it.

    Regarding why Christianity has a certain amount of man deprecation in it, it may be because the letters of the New Testament were meant to be read out in churches and applied to men. Women were to be silent in churches and to learn from their husbands.Today, the letters are read to a mixed population of ‘equals’, but one (female) side sees it isn’t applied to them, since it talks about men.

  38. tz says:

    on the global but not local topic:
    http://www.newemangelization.com/uncategorized/4437/
    Do listen. And she points to http://www.amazon.com/The-Feminization-American-Culture-Douglas/dp/0374525587#
    Women joined with rebellious teens against fathers.

  39. MarcusD says:

    Husband had emotional affair with Co-worker
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=945044

    My brother is living with his girlfriend. How to solve issue?
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=945134

  40. earl says:

    ‘Male pride in status is the most easily digestible sin for churchianity.’

    That may be…but it is still important to know why.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23%3A1-12&version=NASB

  41. earl says:

    Overall the message that we need to pray more is a good one. Praylessness is one of the many reasons we are where we are today.

  42. S. Chan says:

    Here is an interesting–albeit unrelated–comment from Laura Wood (aka The Thinking Housewife), concerning the current rape hysteria on college campuses.

    Women [in college] are offered the fig leaf of victimhood and it’s a relief, a way of escaping the power and responsibility they have in personal relationships and the consequences of their own decisions at a time when they are given way too much phony freedom, virtually no protection and overwhelming pressures to succeed in a masculine way.
    I think the real anger [from college girls] is against adults for having abnegated their responsibility to protect young women and for having pressured them to be like men. Girls pick up on this. They sense that as women they are viewed as inadequate by the feminist culture and must be more like men.

  43. Renee Harris says:

    I agree with with boxer. You guys should boycott and make Alternative in cost effective way since budding knowledge through a story telling medium rather than profit

  44. Jvarr says:

    @ Dalrock: “The problem is not the slickness of the delivery of the message. The problem is the message modern Christians have to share.”

    I think the scarcity of Christian media (and funding) is also a concern. While Kendrick may promote the feminist line… another might easily create a red-pill themed film. If Dalrock writes a good screenplay… Who is going to produce it?

    Speaking of which, it would nice to see some manosphere writers produce a web series. So much analytic material just begging to be dramatized.

  45. Drew says:

    I think it’s a bit silly to attack the movie without even knowing that it has anything bad in it. I really didn’t see anything objectionable in that trailer. Nothing promoting divorce. Nothing promoting nagging, or egalitarianism, or anything.

  46. Jvarr says:

    ^^
    And just to elaborate on web-series. Consider the average sit-com as a base.

    Main focus on a newlywed couple. She’s a good girl but always in danger of being caught up in the FI wave. He’s a good guy caught between blue pill and red, who gets advice from:
    a. Elder brother; former blue-pill beta, divorced, who’s life is now screwed but he finally woke up.
    b. Good friend; Slick PUA, philosopher.
    And the next door neighbor is an incel.

    There’s enough material in these blogs to last 20 seasons. Just go to Kickstarter or something for funds. Hell, Rollo practically writes an episode every week anyway.

    It’s up to people to create the media they want.

  47. Renee Harris says:

    @ jarr the bloggers in the manosphere will have to produce the film using home computer software . Then reinvest profits into financing and producing the second film and repeat the process. Buying better equipment along the way.
    The first film won’t be the citizen kane of Christian flim but a start to something more biblical being Shown

  48. Last night I saw the new Sponge Bob movie.

    It has more wisdom that 5 Kendrick movies

  49. Drew.

    Drew Drew Drew.

    Ever play whack-a-mole? Its like that. You never know where or exactly when, but they just keep popping up in every movie.

  50. earl says:

    ‘I think it’s a bit silly to attack the movie without even knowing that it has anything bad in it. I really didn’t see anything objectionable in that trailer. Nothing promoting divorce. Nothing promoting nagging, or egalitarianism, or anything.’

    I didn’t either. Heaven forbid a wife actually prays for her husband. At least they are saying she does have some part in this process instead of making it all about what the man has to do.

  51. Distribution is probably a bigger issue than funding. You can produce movies, but you still have to get them distributed. Unless you have Hollywood-sized budgets and can get them in mainstream theaters, you need another method. Christian producers get away with smaller budgets because churches act as free distributors and promoters — if they like the message. You’re not going to get your pro-patriarchy movie past the nice lady event planners at many churches. So basically, you have to be able to fund the filming itself, and then pay people to see it.

    Not saying there isn’t potential there (especially online), but it won’t be as simple as offering an alternative.

  52. freebird says:

    Here I had thought Christians were under the mosiac ten commandments.
    Richard and Dave have convinced me otherwise,despite Christ saying he came not to change jot nor titl.

    I guess it’s game on.
    The whole of the Law shall be do what thou wilt.
    Maybe break all 10 just for fun,like The Man in Black said:
    “I shot a man in Mexico just to watch him die.”

  53. earl says:

    ‘Here I had thought Christians were under the mosiac ten commandments.
    Richard and Dave have convinced me otherwise,despite Christ saying he came not to change jot nor titl.’

    We are…Christ simplified them to loving God above all else and loving your neighbor as yourself. The ten commandments come from those two commandments.

  54. Boxer says:

    Dear Earl and Drew:

    ‘I think it’s a bit silly to attack the movie without even knowing that it has anything bad in it. I really didn’t see anything objectionable in that trailer. Nothing promoting divorce. Nothing promoting nagging, or egalitarianism, or anything.’

    I didn’t either. Heaven forbid a wife actually prays for her husband. At least they are saying she does have some part in this process instead of making it all about what the man has to do.

    Did y’all watch the preview? There’s a definite tone to this film that is unhealthy. Look at the way this woman looks at her husband in every included shot, especially in the car when their little daughter can see and mirror the disrespect.

    Also check out the idiots who are butting into his business. Some fireman tells him he needs to soften up and be nicer. Some gym faggot tells him he needs to quit asserting himself. Lots of divorced bros in this corner of the web did exactly that, and see where it got them…

    There needs to be a film with a rebellious ex-skank wife, with the thousand cock stare and the “moxie”, who gets schooled by her granny that she’s going to be out on her ass if she doesn’t wise up and start being a proper wife. The narrative arc ought to include her praying and asking forgiveness for being an asshole, and then the film can end with her cooking, cleaning and shutting the fuck up. Maybe at the end of the film she can cut in from the future with a voiceover talking about how she and hubby are on their seventieth great grandchild, how she lived a great life after her husband became a multimillionaire (because he could concentrate on providing once she quit nagging) and how glad she is that she reformed before she got her ass kicked into single mom status. That’d not only be a healthier film, it would be a much more realistic one.

    Boxer

  55. earl says:

    ‘Did y’all watch the preview? There’s a definite tone to this film that is unhealthy. Look at the way this woman looks at her husband in every included shot, especially in the car when their little daughter can see and mirror the disrespect.’

    Yes…and isn’t also possible that a woman who is far away from God loses her femininity. Without prayer it’s only a matter of time before a person separates themself from God and loses their identity.

    ‘Also check out the idiots who are butting into his business. Some fireman tells him he needs to soften up and be nicer. Some gym faggot tells him he needs to quit asserting himself. Lots of divorced bros in this corner of the web did exactly that, and see where it got them…’

    Well from what I saw the fireman was making the statement that if he is fighting his wife he could hold his own, but if he’s fighting God he’s going to lose. Which is true if He is actually working through her (we don’t know at that point). Where in that line is he told to be softer and nicer?

    And then the other part the husband was complaining ‘about her junk’. To which he was reminded that he is married to her. Where in that line is he told to quit asserting himself?

    My theory is a lot of divorced bros are told to fix their marriages through sheer self-will and being domineering and not so much asking for God’s help and intervention in their lives. .

  56. earl says:

    At least from what I can tell as opposed to Fireproof in this movie the wife is getting reprimanded too. Fireproof was mostly about how much the guy screwed up while overlooking her flaws. This movie from the trailers showed the wife wasn’t doing her duty either.

  57. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like a duck….it might be a bear in a duck costume. But you’re justified in assuming it’s a duck and treating it like a duck until it roars.

    Guys, this isn’t our first rodeo. We know how these things work, and we don’t have to see the whole film to extrapolate from the previews, the producers’ track record, and the tropes that get Churchian audiences buzzing. We can have a great deal of certainty that the woman praying for her husband will not be praying in a humble, “Thy will be done” way, but in a, “God, help me fix him as I know you want me to” way.

    We can be as sure of that as we can be that Obama is not about to announce that he’s deporting all Muslim immigrants from the US tomorrow. I don’t have to inspect all the papers in the Oval Office to know that, and I don’t have to see this whole film to know what it’s selling.

    Will there be some good, valid, Christian themes in the movie, like the general need for prayer? Almost certainly. That doesn’t mean the themes surrounding marriage and family have to be equally valid.

  58. earl says:

    Look a movie can have any theme and outcome it wants to it…prayer can certainly be asking God for your daily bread….but the more important part of prayer is developing a relationship with God. Once that is strengthened you begin to develop better relationships with other people. What I want to see in the outcome is the wife becomes more feminine, open, and pleasant and the husband realizes life just isn’t about status and money. Because that’s what really happens with a good prayer life.

  59. JDG says:

    My theory is a lot of divorced bros are told to fix their marriages through sheer self-will and being domineering

    In all my years spent in church and listening to sermons from other churches I’ve rarely heard this advice given, and I mean very rarely. Usually the advice given was more along the usual narrative – man bad / woman good ie: listen to (obey) your wife. Also, I’ve noticed that those that were domineering and strong willed usually had marriages that fared much better than those who followed the usual script and listened to their wives.

    Not that a man should be belligerent or a bully, but he definitely should be unquestionably in charge. I’ve seen this played out in other countries and it works much better than what we have here in the US.

    A Christian man should seek and obey God, stay in the Word, pray always, and keep fellowship with like minded, Bible believing Christians who are not deluded with feminism (or any other ism). Women are not to teach or hold authority over men for a good reason.

  60. earl says:

    ‘In all my years spent in church and listening to sermons from other churches I’ve rarely heard this advice given, and I mean very rarely.’

    Do they say it like Driscoll? My ideas as a pastor are better than any ideas you have. Basically somebody has to be the domineering partner in the marriage. If it isn’t going to be you then it will be them (the church) or the government by telling women to use those avenues. I can tell you if anyone goes down the route of domineering, it isn’t going to be a happy marriage.

    See what feminism is all about is that everyone should be domineering (rebellious) and nobody should be submissive (obedient). We rebel with God by sinning and then excusing it as empowerment. We tell women to rebel from God and men in all walks of life but especially in the one place she has God given instructions of obedience and that’s to her husband.

  61. Neguy says:

    The thing is, the call to prayer is critical. I believe prayer is the most foundational activity of the Christian walk. And I’m guessing shockingly few Christians pray daily or extensively.

    The only Kendrick brothers movie I’ve watched is Facing the Giants. I was in a blue pill frame of mind at the time, but I thought it was good. I’m not looking for reasons to tear those guys down, though I can see what you guys are saying. I even see the substrate of it in Facing the Giants too, but it wasn’t awful.

    The central scene in Facing the Giants utilizes a quote from Revelation it would be good for us to keep in mind where Jesus says, “I know your works.” This actually occurs at least twice in those seven letters, once for good works, the other for not good ones.

    God knows what’s going on in the church. Jesus talked about every branch that abides in him being pruned so it will bear more fruit. It’s not difficult to imagine that we are approaching a time of pruning. In Luke’s version of the sermon on the mount, Jesus says, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord but don’t do what I say?” followed by the illustration of the houses built on the rock and the sand. Which house survives the storm? The one whose builder actually did the things Jesus says to do.

    Warren Buffet says that when the financial tide goes out, we get to see who’s been swimming naked. When the storm comes – and it appears to be coming in the sense that to be a faithful Christian will require a willingness to pay a significant personal price for doing so – is when we find out who has been doing what Jesus said to do.

    If I were to venture a guess of the future, I’d say Churchianity is not long for this world. We’re now seeing Evangelical churches embrace gay marriage. They’ve already embraced feminism. Like the mainline denominations, once you conform to the world, you start to die. I suspect that as the price of being a Christians goes up, most Churchians will end up formally apostatizing. The church will shrink dramatically in nominal numbers, but will be a healthier body.

  62. JDG says:

    Do they say it like Driscoll?

    The narrative is the same, the delivery varies.

    My ideas as a pastor are better than any ideas you have.

    ??? – How so? (Or am I misunderstanding you here?)

    Basically somebody has to be the domineering partner in the marriage.

    Someone WILL be the dominant partner in a marriage. How they lead/dominate is up for debate, but someone will have the final say. The Bible says it should be the man.

    I can tell you if anyone goes down the route of domineering, it isn’t going to be a happy marriage.

    Really? How long have you been married? And I’ll tell you something else, happiness isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Contentment is the key, not happiness.

    Granted being arrogant will plant bad seeds and produce bad fruit, but neither should a husband submit to his wife. This also will plant bad seeds and produce bad fruit. The man is to submit to the Lord, and the wife is to submit to her husband.

  63. earl says:

    ‘??? – How so? (Or am I misunderstanding you here?)’

    He shames men at first and then acts like he has the answer.

    Also I said domineering for a reason. Because there is a difference between domineering and dominant.

  64. JDG says:

    Sorry if I misrepresented you, but I was having difficulty being certain about what you were defending. I see now you where referring to Driscoll in the rest of that Paragraph. My bad.

  65. therhoubbhe says:

    “If I were to venture a guess of the future, I’d say Churchianity is not long for this world.”

    It isn’t long for Europe for sure. The Muslims will simply breed the Christians out and takeover; a nasty side-effect of Feminism and Neo-Liberal economic corporatism. I don’t see a Charles “The Hammer” Martel rallying the people and saving Christendom this time from Islamic Invaders.

  66. Peter T says:

    “Modern secular culture loves to denigrate husbands and fathers, portraying them as clueless buffoons.”

    We have probably all seen ads depicting dads as fools and tools. Well, I hardly see ads anymore, without a TV, and maybe I’m behind the trend: I found it positively surprising that some of this year’s super bowl ads depicted fatherhood in a positive light, and I saw and heard praise for those ads in the comments of the media afterwards. Maybe it’s not so dominant in the secular culture anymore to denigrate them.

  67. Boxer says:

    It isn’t long for Europe for sure. The Muslims will simply breed the Christians out and takeover; a nasty side-effect of Feminism and Neo-Liberal economic corporatism. I don’t see a Charles “The Hammer” Martel rallying the people and saving Christendom this time from Islamic Invaders.

    Agreed that Christianity will be gone in the next century, but that’s a cosmetic detail that’s mostly irrelevant.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/progressive-muslims-launch-gay-friendly-women-led-mosques_n_1368460.html

    The end of Christianity is merely a minor milestone for these scum. They’re pozzing everything. It’s a fight to the bitter end. Either it will be civilization, or total destruction.

    Boxer

  68. Dave says:

    I sure hope that Dalrock is wrong on this one.
    One of the questions I asked my ex-girlfriend when we discussed her views about Fireproof movie was, did the wife ever prayed for her husband, and enlisted others to pray for him? Did she make the problems in her marriage an important matter before God? Did she really fight for her marriage, rather than taking the seemingly easy way out? The answers were clear.

    This movie, however, is different. It encourages prayer as an important part in tackling family problems. Personally, I would say I am somewhat impressed with the new emphasis on prayer.
    Genuine prayer has a way of softening people’s hearts, and this includes the hearts of those who pray, irrespective of who they pray for. Prayer has a way of correcting our faulty theologies. Thus, when feminist-infected “Christians” begin to pray, they begin to experience a new understanding of what it means to be men and women of God, and they lose the desire to “conform to this (feminist-controlled) world” (Romans 12:2).

  69. Spacelord says:

    There are still movies that show a strong man and traditional gender roles, but that aren’t labeled as Christian. I think of movies like The Patriot, Gods and Generals and such.

  70. Caspar Reyes says:

    Drew et al.,

    The message as always, subtle or clear, is
    Husbands, get your act together.
    Wives, your husband will never get his act together unless you DO something: threaten divorce, nag, pray (Fireproof, Courageous, and War Room, respectively).

  71. earl says:

    True Christianity isn’t going anywhere. It survived Muslim takeovers before.

    The fake Christianity though is going through its death spiral by swallowing the world.

  72. JDG says:

    True Christianity isn’t going anywhere. It survived Muslim takeovers before.

    The fake Christianity though is going through its death spiral by swallowing the world.

    Yep! Christians have been persecuted by Jews, Romans, other “Christians” (for heresy), Nazis, atheist states, and Muslims. If Muslims come into power, they will persecute Christians. History will tell you that persecution produces genuine Christianity, and genuine Christianity is not going anywhere until the end.

  73. Persecution is one of the ways God uses to create true believers and spread the faith.

  74. Neguy says:

    Christianity is going nowhere. In fact, it’s exploding in places like China and Africa (albeit with some instances of theological issues as well, such as the prosperity gospel problem in Africa and Latin America). It’s Churchianity I think is going to be fading.

    Keep in mind the rise of anti-Christian worldly values seems inevitable, but it’s also based on a denial of reality (e.g., gender is a social construct, casual sex is great, etc.) and what’s more simply cannot fulfill the longings of the human spirit. One or both of those will eventually destroy it. But beyond that, I believe God is still very much sovereign and thus what ultimately happens will depend on his good pleasure. Because of that, as Christians we can always have hope in what we face, even in this world.

  75. Neguy says:

    We have hope, but I am getting depressed about the things I hear. I read this story in the LA Times. We don’t get the full details, but it isn’t hard to imagine this guy’s wife dumped him when his Boeing gig came to an end and he was no longer of use to her:

    http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-0208-lopez-saldana-20150208-column.html#page=1

    Also was reading about a female Facebook friend who, never married and in her late 30s, deliberately conceived a baby out of wedlock because she wanted one. Her son is at the age where he finally told her “I wish I was a boy with a daddy.” The mom posts this and of course gets mega-validation for her decision to have him. How her son will suffer doesn’t even enter into anyone’s equation. In fact, everyone’s claiming there’s nothing to fear.

    Definitely a minefield out there for men. Again, we can only obey God’s commands and trust in his goodness and sovereignty over our lives.

  76. Shem says:

    Do you foresee a future when all good and godly people join forces against the darkness regardless of religious affiliation?

  77. Neguy says:

    @Shem, I think unity in the Christian church is imperative. It’s something I’m researching extensively right now, but I think the path forward is to stop focusing on areas of division and start focusing on the basics, namely the truths of the early church creeds on which all Christians in the world agree. If a given church affirms these AND the people in question honestly have faith that they are true, I think we need to embrace them as brothers.

    For example, I’m not Catholic and do not think in good conscience I could submit to the authority of the Catholic church because I could not give honest assent to what is required. I could never be a member in good standing. But I can without hesitation say that I consider a believing, practicing Catholic a true and authentic Christian, period.

    I think we should try to figure out how to move forward on that basis. However, I’d point out that the Bible says that “There is none good, there is not even one.” The idea that there are “good” people and “bad” people I think is not the right way to slice it. And there’s no way I could possibly classify a non-Christian as “godly”. So I think the opportunities for collaboration there are limited.

  78. Shem says:

    Neguy, I respect that but my question was about all godly people, not just Christians and all good people, not just theists. Jews have done a good job of including non-believing Jews into the fold, the halakha demands that. That’s just an example but there is a case for universal goodness across all boundaries.

  79. Boxer says:

    Dear Brother Shem:

    You didn’t ask me but it’s a good question…

    Do you foresee a future when all good and godly people join forces against the darkness regardless of religious affiliation?

    Depends upon what you mean when you say “join forces”. I don’t pray and am not interested in religion, and I’ve never been a Christian, but I’m glad that theology can inspire men to be their best selves, and especially that it seems to inspire many to give the finger to the status quo.

    Bear in mind that the feminist nutters are in the mop-up phase of pozzing out American atheism and agnosticism, and are beginning to poz Mormonism, Islam, and other outliers now. Judaism and Christianity (Protestant) became feminist strongholds a generation ago.

    We don’t all have to agree or even work together, but if we can’t get along, then we should work separately and not fight each other. Every man should ask himself if he’s on the side of a civilized, productive, normal life, or if he wants to descend into a very real “hell on earth”. The latter is what the feminists have in store for all of us.

  80. Neguy says:

    Certainly there are non-Christians who obey the law in their conscience to a greater degree than others. Paul references this in Romans. I think we can make opportunistic common cause with Jews, etc. on select items, but I’m not sure how much depth there can be.

  81. jeff says:

    Dalrock,

    Are there ANY programs for women like there are for men (like Men Stepping Up, PK, etc)?

    If there are I would like to know. If you remember, I am confronting my pastor on these issues and he says there are, but couldn’t come up with any off hand. I have no reason to disbelieve him, but I couldn’t think of any either.

  82. Anchorman says:

    Jeff,
    It depends on what you mean. There’s the Proverbs 31 movement.

  83. Aservant says:

    That clip was almost unbearable to watch.

    These two producers appear to have ethnic features representative of the Tribe, who dominate anti-Christian propaganda in media, so it isn’t surprising at all that they are mocking and intentionally corrupting the message of Christ.

    No true Christian needs to be spending their time watching any of the crap turned out by the vast majority of professional media anyway, we have much more important things to be doing in these end times. Target practice, clean your guns, grow some food, get out of debt, blow up your TV, exercise, read, the list is endless……….

  84. jeff says:

    Anchorman,

    Looked all over for that and can’t find it. Are talking about Live31 and the kid who would rather have a Proverbs 31 wife than a Victoria Secret model? I see Proverbs31ministries, but again they are two California Christians. I’m talking about more of a “Woman Up” program.

  85. Renee Harris says:

    Fireproof was on tbn last night and I was thinking
    At The commentor Who asked. about Catherine’s prayer for her husband in fireproof. he did not pray for him as she would too busy having an affair with the ( cough Married cough) doctor. And neither of them were Christian. Call me. Feminist. But Know I bought the DVD because Kirk Cameron is hot.
    Another plot point: a young unmarried woman is addicted to porn. ( because no one talks about that Good or bad)! Also there needs to be a woman who verbalizes her disgust for her husband’s porn addiction and self righteously brags about her choice of ” withhold the goods” unti he Holy ups to her woman group. The group lead by red pill’s wife Chastise her for blue balling him, point out that Satan has been using this situation and the effects of HER sin on the body.

  86. Josh the Aspie says:

    So the villainous man says “I don’t need her nagging me.” and despite everything we hear about nagging in the bible being bad*, the only rebuke we hear in this trailer to the wife is that she needs to do her fighting with prayer, rather than directly with her husband.

    Note that in Fireproof, the husband is supposed to give in completely to every demand of the wife. But in this new movie, the wife is supposed to “plead with god to do what only he can do, and then get out of the way”, and again the man is cast as the one that, aside from praying more, is the one that needs the change.

    * http://www.openbible.info/topics/nagging_wife

  87. Josh the Aspie says:

    In fact, in the same scene the guy says “I don’t need her nagging me”, the man, of course, is the one that gets rebuked.

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  92. Budge says:

    Aservant,

    When you state that “these two producers appear to have ethnic features representative of the Tribe, who dominate anti-Christian propaganda in media”, you simply illustrate that (1) you’re an anti-simetic bigot, and (2) that you just have a problem with ANYONE who shares Christian beliefs that aren’t your own. Way to “Love thy neighbor”. Atheists are leading the charge against Christianity, not Jews. So really, how does your version of Christian extremism differ from Taliban Muslim extremism when your list of needed activities starts with target practice and cleaning your guns? The only two things you and I can agree on are that this movie isn’t worth the money, and that you do have a lot of self-help to work on.

  93. James says:

    Has anyone seen the movie yet who can give their opinions on it? I read through this thread looking to see if comments started appearing after it had been released.

  94. Well, the movie is out now and my friend who recommended Fireproof is now talking up War Room.
    Any feedback? Does it live down to expectations?

    [D: I have a post scheduled to autopublish tomorrow morning on it.]

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