Hear them roar.

Infowars on feminist music.

The need to make what should be beautiful ugly is of course standard for feminists.  Hat Tip MarcusD

This entry was posted in Manosphere Humor, Ugly Feminists. Bookmark the permalink.

189 Responses to Hear them roar.

  1. Jason says:

    I can’t tell the difference, can you?

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  3. Looking Glass says:

    The Howler monkeys can hold the tune better.

    No joke there.

  4. Cane Caldo says:

    Well done, MarcusD! Hilarious.

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  6. They’ve been around cats with their tails caught under a rocker….

  7. MarcusD says:

    It’s amazing that they can be so delusional as to think that that howling is actually “art.” When I first saw the video, I thought it had to be a hoax. But then I remembered other feminist “contributions” to the art world*, and realized that it fit in well.

    *http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/apr/22/artist-eggs-vagina-paintings-performance-art-milo-moire

    It got a pass from some people (e.g. Jezebel), but others, valuing their reputation amongst the sane of the world, decided to gently mock it.

    An academic explains it (?):

    This important performance is a metaphor for the crisis of feminism in a post-modern world. The “plop”, as it were, is reminiscent of the pre-structuralists who utilized organic materials to bridge the chasm between centuries of phallo-centric art, which utilized the classically taught means of production, and the rawer and more visceral expression of the de-contextualized body as creator.

  8. SirHamster says:

    Words fail me. Hilarious.

  9. Crank says:

    My God, that was so powerful! Very inspiring.

  10. new anon says:

    The last comment is the money line:

    “Isn’t it emblematic of how far feminists are divorced from reality, that this is what both they and broadcasters like the BBC think puts them in a positive light.”

  11. TheRhoubbhe says:

    The funniest part is those no-talent harpies actually needed to look at sheet music to basically howl like jackasses. Sheet music, lol. Hilarious.

  12. infowarrior1 says:

    Tears streaming down my face. Beautiful.

  13. Tom C says:

    They can only have one note on their sheet music, the whole note that looks like an egg. All the other notes are too phallic with their little flags and things. So that’s why it sounds that way.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    That actually sounds plausible enough that I should mention that I’m just kidding.

  14. Maunalani says:

    In law school we used to call the women students “harpies,” because they were so disagreeable and unattractive. Part of it was whenever a professor made any sort of statement in class they found sexist or otherwise disapproved of, they would all let out a closed-mouth hiss that could be heard throughout the room but could not be traced back to any harpy in particular. But this is a better example of harpy behavior.

  15. Steve Canyon says:

    I played the video. My dog cocked his head to the side with a WTF look then wanted me to let him go outside to leave a pile in the grass.

    I don’t think I can summarize this better than him.

  16. TheRhoubbhe says:

    @Tom C

    I stared in bewilderment when they actually turned a page on their sheets sitting on the music stand. These women were actually that stupid that they needed written directions on how to change an animal sound, lol.

  17. Spike says:

    WTF?
    That someone in the BBC made the decision to air this is proof of a misandric conspiracy running through it.
    2014 will be the year that feminists lost control of the narrative, with such fails as “Gamergate” UVa, “Ban Bossy”, “Mattgate”, “He For She” (off the top of my head) demonstrating that they are a bunch of selfish misfits with First World problems.
    From the looks of this, 2015 is off to a flying start for them.

  18. Mycroft Jones says:

    When I heard it, I thought it sounded like a pack of wolves. Or maybe hyenas. I hear the wolf pack in my neighborhood regularly, so I know what it sounds like. The wolves are more musical. Oh, and what do you call a female canine? Yeah. Like that.

  19. cecilhenry says:

    Yes, I love the sheet music!! What is practice like?? How DO you practice this. I mean how do you know you did it wrong?? Maybe if it sounds in tune???

    Do they have to stop and redo a page because the sound was off!!! What that must be like.

  20. masonkramer says:

    Encore! Encore!

  21. DeNihilist says:

    Jeez, I saw that a while ago on Small Dead Animals, and was going to post it here, but thought that it would be cruel and inhumane punishment!

  22. greyghost says:

    Makes you wanna go to Jareds and pick out a little something something.

  23. cynthia says:

    Of course they have to make it ugly, because ugliness is the unmaking of beauty, which is a thing that not everyone is capable of producing. Anyone can be make a thing hideous. It’s egalitarian. Ugliness is equal, and better yet, you don’t have to put forth much effort to achieve it.

    I suspect that when feminists talk about “The Patriarchy” what they’re really talking about is “Western Civilization.” We used to strive for beauty, craftsmanship, technical precision, and meaning in our art. So of course, that all has to go too. It’s part of this systematic dismantling of society they’re all working so diligently on.

  24. Boxer says:

    I suspect that when feminists talk about “The Patriarchy” what they’re really talking about is “Western Civilization.”

    I think that’s exactly right cynthia.

    Unlike normal men and women, who take pride in building, farming, thinking and creating, the feminist is defective. As a result of their psychological state, they hate the beautiful and the normal, because they feel substandard whenever they encounter it.

    They want to tear down the churches. Well, I’m not a believer, so theoretically I shouldn’t care about this; but, what would they replace them with? The feminist isn’t capable of generating a new mythology or architecture to supersede what they rail against. The best they might do is an STD/abortion clinic in place of the cathedral (and that’s being generous).

    They’re wreckers. Pure and simple.

  25. Boxer says:

    That someone in the BBC made the decision to air this is proof of a misandric conspiracy running through it.

    You really think so? I fuck’n lolled so hard I almost choked.

    I’m betting some dude down at the BBC (possibly a closet Dalrock fan) had a sense of humor, and encouraged this gaggle of lunatics to go all out, just so that he could spread the lulz. Never seen a group of people look more ridiculous, and it’s now on worldwide media.

    Boxer

  26. Bluepillprofessor says:

    I have not laughed that hard this entire year. Thanks Dalrock! Really needed that tonight.

    The Howler Monkeys were funny but somebody has to post a clip of coyotes howling. That is exactly how they sounded.

  27. TheRhoubbhe says:

    @cecilhenry

    Hilarious. Those are very good points, so in the words of Alan Iverson “We’re talking about practice.”

    I mean did they simply rehearse this over and over and all decide “we suck enough to go on the BBC?” Who evaluated this performance and decided it was ready for TV? Deaf People?

    Someone actually took the time to write that performance on music sheets; granted a six year old with crayons could have composed it, but they seem to have used those music sheets at practice.

    How did those practices work? DId someone decide when this was ready?

    Producer: “Let’s go with that version ladies. It sounds off-key, like cats being slaughtered. It will mask your lack of appreciable musical talent and focus it on your feminist message {snicker}. What is that? Male tears? Oh this will bring about male tears for sure….”

    Did these women spend more time on their clothes and makeup than practicing for the performance? Look at those dresses. Which received more consideration at the practices? I am sure they focused way more energy and effort into their clothes and makeup.

  28. A Regular Guy says:

    What kind of person is still paying for television after seeing that?

  29. molly says:

    Wolves try hard to get discord in a pack howl, to make the pack sound bigger. These fembots try to make themselves sound bigger than they really are.

  30. I lost my shit laughing when they all turn the sheet music to the next page so as not to, I assume, lose their place in the piece.

    LMAO

  31. “when feminists talk about “The Patriarchy” what they’re really talking about is “Western Civilization.””

    They’re talking about a delusion of their own making. Nowhere on Earth do all men conspire against all women. Not even close.

  32. Maunalani says:

    What key is this in?

  33. solitude says:

    Actually this piece is fairly typical of modern avant garde choral music. Unfortunately for this, the trend is to take a piece of music and label it political. It worked for the Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima, here … well women in western nations aren’t automatic victims. It sounded like a weak civil war rebel yell rendition.

    The chopping the doll was just bad art.

  34. Don Quixote says:

    That video is an excellent portrayal of feminism unencumbered by male privilege. They composed, arranged and howled it all by themselves! Well done girls! England’s got talent.

  35. mrteebs says:

    How about an encore performance where they fling poo? And of course another unctious art critic to help us understand that this cat urine is actually vintage port.

  36. mrteebs says:

    There are coyotes on the farmland that adjoins our property. At night, they are virtually indistinguishable from this choral ensemble. And I can’t help but wonder if I overdubbed this with the coyote howls, would the critic find even more transcendent symbolism on which to opine?

  37. Heck yeah! Amazingly femtastic stuff right there! Give a Nobel Art Prize or something! A recording label better get em signed, right quick! Thank you Marcus for showing us the errors of our ways, truly, women doing it for themselves, no man could have come up with such genius, not without the help of a truly splendifurious woman to show him… oh what I am saying, yeah you’re right, no man would be able to do it even with the help of such a glorious woman, she would have to step in and do it for him. Such is the way of the Patriarchy!

    All hail the great vajayjay! Hail!

  38. Embrace the suck! Embrace it!

  39. The Jack Russell Terrorist says:

    Feminists “roar and liken themselves unto a lion, but people hear their bray and liken feminists unto a jackass.

  40. earl says:

    I think feminists have just had their jump the shark moment.

  41. Well, their music did engage my dog in a way patriarchal music like this never has:

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  43. Ann Kellett says:

    What awaits us as we slide farther into the sewer of this femtastic slippery slope? (And the comment about the phallic shape of the musical notes was hilarious!)

  44. Alyosha says:

    Barking moon bats. Lolllzz

    Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad.

    This kind of Frankfurt school vomit has made satire completely impossible… but fear not, there are still plenty of laughs to be had.

  45. Phillyastro says:

    Anyway they can hold their notes while knitting with wool from their menstruating vaginas?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/04/vaginal-knitting_n_4386419.html

  46. Jeremy says:

    That wasn’t just sheet music, those were binders of sheet music. This means they have other works in there of pure comedy gold.

    I’m thinking that in the days before organized monotheism, humanity endured this kind of stupidity before… that is for about as long as it took the men around them to declare them witches and draw their swords.

    If, in 10 years, feminism is still in charge, I’ll bet some woman finds a way to queef out those binders for an audience.

  47. What key is this in?

    It first starts off in a Bitch-sharp major and, when they turn the page, becomes a Femtastic major scale. Truly wondrous work, cannot wait for their next piece!

  48. Lyn87 says:

    I didn’t notice the page-flipping until several people mentioned it up-thread. That’s hilarious. On the other hand, I was immediately struck by the fact that all the women went to great effort to make themselves conventionally attractive in the feminine sense (long gowns, make-up, hair done, etc). None of them really succeeded (two of the six would be marginally attractive if they didn’t open their mouths), but it wasn’t for lack of trying. But… in the film clip of themselves smashing the doll they look like a bunch of hood-rats and bull dykes, so I’m guessing that it was the BBC that made them look like “ladies” as a condition of being on camera. Clearly they gave in to this PATRIARCHAL OPPRESSION (!), because there’s no way they would have dressed up like that on their own. I’ll step into my virtual Women’s Studies Professor persona and deconstruct this:

    1) The womyn were forced to conform to oppressive cis-normative expectations of female appearance by the men who run the BBC.

    2) The womym had no choice but to participate in their own oppression in order to have their voices heard. So typical of our misogynistic society.

    … or maybe there’s something far deeper… a message-behind-the-message (lucky for you that you have me to explain it to you)…

    3) Since these are, strong, independent, feminist womyn, who stand up against cis-normative PATRIARCHAL OPPRESSION (!), one can sense that they wore their “costumes” ironically – and the deeper message was that cis-normative PATRIARCHAL OPPRESSION (!) turns womyn into beast who cry out in oppressed anguish like caged hyenas.
    _________________________

    I shouldn’t have to say this, but because that’s the sort of crap a tenured Women’s Studies profession would actually say, I’ll say it anyway: I’M NOT BEING SERIOUS. Poe’s Law in action.

  49. Mik O says:

    …’and to hear the lamentation of the women’…

  50. Krul says:

    Alternate title: “This is what a feminist sounds like”

    Honest question. Would you rather listen to the Sirens, or Yoko Ono? Myself, I prefer Yoko. Can’t beat the classics.

    Man, this post-post-post-modern crap is getting me down. I need to hear some good music.

    Ah, here we are. Maria Callas’ beautiful performance of Ave Maria. That’ll do nicely.

  51. Boxer says:

    Actually this piece is fairly typical of modern avant garde choral music.

    Never been so glad to be a philistine, if that’s the case.

    As contrast, here’s a mid-20th century composition. It will do wonders to cleanse the mind of the feminist filth. Cheers to Carl Orff and Charlotte Church.

    Western civilization is unravelling at a fantastic rate.

    Boxer

  52. And just like the spotted hyenas they like to mimic, they probably also have 9 inch, ehrm … something between their legs..

  53. …and to hear the lamentation of the women’…

    If Conan had heard this racket, he would have dropped his sword and allowed the vanquished to retake their women. At which point they would have begged Conan to rethink his position.

  54. earl says:

    Oh yes Yoko. Bill Burr mentioned this clip in his podcast and how Chuck Berry just gives this look at 1:20 when Yoko messes up this duet.

  55. Spike – 2014 will be the year that feminists lost control of the narrative, with such fails as “Gamergate” UVa, “Ban Bossy”, “Mattgate”, “He For She” (off the top of my head) demonstrating that they are a bunch of selfish misfits with First World problems.
    From the looks of this, 2015 is off to a flying start for them.

    The old skool feminists who were seeking power/liberation/whatever and actually had some kind of plan (ridiculous as it may have been) are gone. Aged out. The useful idiots are running the show.

    And doing so badly, judging by that clip.

  56. Treasurer says:

    Being somewhat of a conservative in my musical tastes I would not even describe this as music. What message they are trying to convey is beyond me. The commentator’s remarks are priceless.
    If this the true taste of feminism, it is even more ridiculous than I imagined.

    Mike from UK

  57. 1960s – Feminine Mystique.

    1990s – “I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession which I entered before my husband was in public life.”

    2015 – “You are witnesses at the new birth of ‘Gina Tap, Mark II. Hope you enjoy our new direction!”

  58. LSCS says:

    I paused Pandora playing Ella Fitzgerald in order to stop an listen to the feminist ‘music’ in the video. BIG mistake. Without a doubt those women on stage are celebrating ugliness, and are proud of their efforts. Right proper treatment by the narrator.

  59. Random Angeleno says:

    @Boxer … nice video of Carl Orff and Charlotte Church. I know someone who sings like that, who loves to sing the old classics and opera selections. She is regularly quite dismissive of most pop singers and would agree that the howling coyotes and monkeys sound better than that bunch highlighted by BBC. Me, I thought the page turning was a truly wicked touch …

  60. A Man For All Seasons says:

    I really enjoyed when he showed the picture of that red haired harpy, spouted some mocking cliché feminist drivel, then cut back to a shot of the women howling! The howling women were very funny on their own, standing in a stiff pose, their hands clasped like a classical singer, turning their pages as they transitioned from howling to barking. But the presenter’s mocking was the icing on the cake.

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  62. Spacetraveller says:

    @ Boxer,

    I see your Charlotte Church.
    And I raise you Aled Jones (also Welsh).🙂

  63. Dalrock says:

    @Krul

    Man, this post-post-post-modern crap is getting me down. I need to hear some good music.

    Ah, here we are. Maria Callas’ beautiful performance of Ave Maria. That’ll do nicely.

    Bach’s Cello Suites are another excellent choice. The first is the most famous, but the entire set is truly beautiful.

  64. A Regular Guy says:

    @ Earl February 4, 2015 at 11:20 am

    I saw that clip a while back and it still holds up; such a classic. Bill Burr couldn’t have explained it better. Yoko simply couldn’t take NOT being the center of attention.

    Seeing the feminist music video again, it stopped being funny when I realized how pitifully damaged these women are. It’s a like a sad, subconscious cry for help. They must live lives drowning in chaos, having devoted themselves to a deadly religion (Cultural Marxism) that doctrinally requires insanity.

  65. A Regular Guy says:

    @Krul

    Man, this post-post-post-modern crap is getting me down. I need to hear some good music.

    Ah, here we are. Maria Callas’ beautiful performance of Ave Maria. That’ll do nicely.

    If you’re looking for a cappella, may I suggest Anuna? Jerusalem is one of my favorites.



  66. Krul says:

    @ Dalrock,

    Thank you, I do love Bach’s cello suites, and his violin concertos.

    Wagner is probably my favorite by a slim margin, though. Just listen to the Prelude to Das Rheingold Magical.

    And of course, no list of good music would be complete without the transcendental beauty of Pachelbel’s Canon.

    And just for fun, how about a performance of Chopin’s Black Keys?

  67. Boxer says:

    Dalrock, TFH, Krul, SpaceTraveler:

    You guys are making my morning with all this quality classical.

    Richard Strauss, composed around the turn of the 20th century.

  68. Krul says:

    A Regular Guy – If you’re looking for a cappella, may I suggest Anuna?

    That is lovely, I’d never heard of them. What a pleasant surprise.

    I once heard a similar choral a cappella performance entitled “…Who Was The Son Of…” on the radio, but haven’t been able to find since. The host explained that it was a word-for-word lyrical recitation of the genealogy of Jesus from Luke chapter 3. I wish I could find it again.

  69. A Regular Guy says:

    OT: How did you embed the video in your post? I tried the [iframe] command, but it didn’t work.

  70. A Regular Guy says:

    @TFH

    Great find! I like it!

  71. Boxer says:

    Among modern instrumental music, Roni Benise surprised me with how good he is, and how many compositions he has produced in just a few years.

    This is great. I’ve never heard of the man. Watching now.

    Plus, all his concerts are very ‘patriarchal’, ‘gender normative’ and exceptionally cisgendered’ :

    Any time I hear this word uttered unironically, I issue a derisive snort, not noticeable unless one is looking straight at me.

    At first, it was a conscious sign of disrespect. After a while, it became involuntary.

    Boxer

  72. Krul says:

    Re: TFH,

    Reminds me a little of E. S. Posthumus, whose stuff you’ve probably heard in action movie trailers.

    Unstoppable
    Pompeii

  73. Lyn87 says:

    Not O/T, but a trifle tangential:

    Behold another roaring woman. At least this one is only figuratively howling (by writing) rather than literally howling like the “womyn” in the video.

    http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/01/real-reason-women-freeze-their-eggs.html#75j3vj:0GJ

    The gist of the article is as follows: I spent my 20’s and most of my 30’s screwing hawt guys. I turned down a marriage proposal from a guy I had been dating for years – a guy who would have made a great husband and father – because I wanted to screw even more hawt guys before I settled down to marriage and motherhood. Now I’m nearing menopause and I have to freeze my eggs because guys are such jerks and are afraid of commitment. It’s definitely NOT because there’s anything wrong with me.

    As both this and the video Dalrock posted demonstrate: you can’t make feminism seem any more worthy of ridicule than feminists do themselves.

  74. Don Quixote says:

    I may have found a dance team to choreograph this howling symphony:
    http://www.returnofkings.com/54628/dancing-with-the-obese-in-australia

  75. Spacetraveller says:

    Boxer,

    Anything to drown out the atrocity that Dalrock/Marcus D have just subjected us all to.🙂
    You certainly are returning the favour with your Strauss. How utterly heavenly!

    Krul,

    Ave Maria…ah, nothing better than a homage to Our Lady!
    Of all the ‘Ave Marias’ out there (Bach-Gounod, Schubert, etc.) my favourite is (Giulio) Caccini’s.
    And the best rendition I have heard so far of this is by Sumi Jo, the Korean soprano.
    When I saw the following video, I had to have this played at our Wedding Mass (for obvious reasons, lol).

    Cristina Piccardi is a lesser-known soprano, but her rendition of Mozart’s ‘Laudate Dominum’ inspired me to include it also in said Wedding Mass.

    We sooooooooo wanted a boy soprano to sing both, but it proved quite a challenge to find one in time, so in the end, we had a woman soprano sing them. And she did a brilliant job.🙂

    You can’t beat the richness of a boy soprano’s voice. Such a pity for them when their career ends because of…Nature.😦
    And sadly, not all of them are able to transition to a tenor/bass career. Aled Jones is an exception.

    Of course, there is always the option of doing what Andreas Scholl did, which is to remain some sort of version of ‘castrato’…um…sorry, counter-tenor.😉 But I think he is very rare.

  76. Seeing the feminist music video again, it stopped being funny when I realized how pitifully damaged these women are. It’s a like a sad, subconscious cry for help. They must live lives drowning in chaos, having devoted themselves to a deadly religion (Cultural Marxism) that doctrinally requires insanity.

    The problem is they fall for this stuff so easily and so completely that they’re beyond saving. Women are their own worst enemy but they also have the ability to drag the men around them into that same pit of hell. That is the real problem with feminism and feminists, that they drag the rest of us with them.

    If we could just cut them off like you would a diseased part of your body, they would be no issue and could safely be ignored, and if they repented – helped. However, feminists have caused a level of damage to society, to male/female relations and to families that they have destroyed the very compassion that women have relied on for years. They now thoroughly deserve their chaos and anguish.

  77. Mark says:

    @MarcusD

    Good find my friend.Only you could find something like that!…L* Hilarious!!
    On your link in the NP.I read that the other day.What a joke.But,wimminz reporters are allowed in men’s locker rooms?…..What a joke! Watch a NFL,NHL after game reports.You see wimminz walking around the locker rooms with naked male athletes?….but that is OK? Again,what a joke. Toronto,Ontario,Canada.The leading Liberal PC area in North America.I would not be surprised if that leftist,lesbian c*** known as Premier Kathleen Wynn had something to do with that.I had a chance to meet her about 2 months ago at a fund raiser,of which a family foundation contributes to.I refused.My response….”I do not associate with people of her ilk”……and I seriously meant that! Times are not that tough in my world where I have to associate with loser rug munching parasites like her!

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  79. Don's Johnson says:


    Best live version of Passacaglia I’ve seen.

  80. Lyn87,

    The gist of the article is as follows: I spent my 20’s and most of my 30’s screwing hawt guys. I turned down a marriage proposal from a guy I had been dating for years – a guy who would have made a great husband and father – because I wanted to screw even more hawt guys before I settled down to marriage and motherhood. Now I’m nearing menopause and I have to freeze my eggs because guys are such jerks and are afraid of commitment. It’s definitely NOT because there’s anything wrong with me.

    About 15-16 years ago in my bluest of blue pill days, I used to post on a predominantly female blog. I was the beta orbiter of every single woman there, coddling all of them, meeting in person very few of them. It was then that I began to realize (over a period of years of reading) that women…. they be crazy!

    One of these crazy ladies was a woman who spent all of her days b-tching and moaning to all and any who would listen about how awful her newlywed husband is. You see, she was 42 and she just got married, her first. She wanted children. He wanted to make her happy because he loved her and he pedistalized her. Welp, they weren’t getting pregnant. So she wanted to try In-vitro-fertilization. He looked at the price, like $50,000 or whatever it was, and said that they couldn’t afford it particularly because there were no guarantees. She said of course they could, just take a second-mortgage out on the house that he brought into the marriage that they now lived in together. In the end, she wound up frivorcing him because he refused to do that. At least he got to keep his own house.

    But the women on that board, they were all sympathetic to her. They were all coddling her insane behavior/demands stipulating that OF COURSE he should have known better that in marrying her, she was entitled to a proper Jewish marriage where she got whatever she wanted and he had to jump through hoops just to make that happen. They excused her frivorce saying that he had no right to deny her the attempt of In-Vitro, afterall, he could just give her the money. It was only when I talked to one or two of them (privately, via email) where they would confess to me that the woman was certifiably insane, but they would never say that in public on the forum nor would they ever confront her on it because the mob mentality stipulates to women what is or is not moral behavior. They didn’t want to go against her or the mob because…. that would put them on the defensive.

    Point is this, you are right Lyn87, in their minds there is definately nothing wrong with them. What you said makes perfect sense to the woman who is taking that action. Afterall, that would be hurtful to insinuate that by her own actions, she missed her own window at motherhood.

  81. Don's Johnson says:

    No doubt he needs to take better care of himself.. I read a more recent(this video was 2011) article, and he looks like he has shed a few lbs. His BMI is still way too high though.
    This guy is proof of the bell curve. He joined the LA Philharmonic at age 19 after completing a Masters in Music from Yale, after already completing a bachelors in Biology from Marist. Great violinist.

  82. Boxer says:

    IBB,

    It was then that I began to realize (over a period of years of reading) that women…. they be crazy!

    Serious question: How is the author of that article fundamentally different than many of the men here, who tout the idea of going to an indian fertility clinic with surrogates and donated eggs, then coming back with a motherless baby?

    Don’t need no woman!!

    Many (not most, but many) on this site and sites like it are stuck in the “fuck you, mom!” phase, which doesn’t seem any healthier than being a wall-hitting egg donor. All the endorsement of surrogacy and sex-robots strikes me as just as weird as that old fruitbat.

    Boxer

  83. Shem says:

    I don’t consider this feminism. Its crap.

    Whether you call yourself a feminist or a humanist, if you are for truth, justice and equality for all, you are a well-intended person and you have my respect.

  84. How is the author of that article fundamentally different than many of the men here, who tout the idea of going to an indian fertility clinic with surrogates and donated eggs, then coming back with a motherless baby?

    I’ve only ever seen Greyghost and TFH tout that idea. As far as guys like me, or perhaps just me, it’s the very real problem that feminism has destroyed the complimentary ideal of male/female relations and replaced it with a competition based formula where either you’re a very attractive male and win or an unattractive male and lose out.

    At the end of the day, male/female relations are heavily strained for most people and the bulk cause of that is feminism. There is not a day that goes by where I do not hear some admonishment for men to ‘man up’ or to stop committing violence or to ‘do more’ for single moms and to stop being patriarchal or to go get circumcised to save women from contracting HIV (that’s the new in thing here in South Africa). I have yet to hear one call for women to be better towards men, not once have I heard it.

    When society focuses solely on one part of the problem, with that problem being a live person, how do you want them to deal with it?

    And really, once you realize that women don’t actually care about you, it’s hard to continue day by day hoping you find one that does, so you try to do without and cope like that.

  85. make it stop says:

    It sounds like today’s CCM music. I can’t tell the difference. Can you?

  86. infowarrior1 says:

    And as an antidote to feminist music:

  87. Boxer says:

    I’ve only ever seen Greyghost and TFH tout that idea.

    Greyghost and TFH are actually the most moderate people who can be found speaking about the phenomenon. I’ve seen tons of text from people who are much more into it than they are.

    As far as guys like me, or perhaps just me, it’s the very real problem that feminism has destroyed the complimentary ideal of male/female relations and replaced it with a competition based formula where either you’re a very attractive male and win or an unattractive male and lose out.

    I certainly agree with you. All the same, raising motherless kids is not really any better, morally speaking, than a babymama or a yougogirl who has kids with a thug or sperm bank.

    It’s not that I don’t sympathize. I just don’t see the fundamental difference. They’re both unhealthy, and have a strong tendency to damage the kids who are born into these situations. I thought the article was interesting, because it so closely mirrors stuff I hear around here, from men.

    And really, once you realize that women don’t actually care about you, it’s hard to continue day by day hoping you find one that does, so you try to do without and cope like that.

    Nobody cares about you, except for you, and perhaps a small group of people you cultivate (the “gang” in the Jack Donovan sense). This is the disadvantage of living in a highly mobile capitalist society, where notions like community are deemed unprofitable.

    You’ve probably seen this, but for anyone who hasn’t, it’s interesting, and may be relevant. It’s basically Marcuse’s “Welfare and Warfare State” in microcosm.

    Boxer

  88. Boxer, I agree with you on the idea of a baby needing a mother and father, you won’t get disagreement from me there. I think a lot of the similarity you’re talking about stems from the position that both ‘camps’ – that being the feminists and the men you speak of – want to forge ahead without the other sex.

    There really isn’t an easy answer to any of this. The genie is out of the bottle and I doubt it’s going back in anytime soon. There will be many more children born to single parent families, it’s the new norm now, embrace the suck as it were.

  89. Krul says:

    While we’re sharing music…

    Wanna hear the oldest song in the world*? It’s the Song of Seikilos. The Greeks were head banging to this at about the same time Jesus walked the earth. It’s good.

    *arguably

  90. Oscar says:

    The Patriarchy gave us Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, etc., etc. Feminism gives us this garbage.

  91. Spacetraveller says:

    Oscar,

    “The Patriarchy gave us Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, etc., etc. Feminism gives us this garbage.”

    Never a truer word spoken.

    Infowarrior1,

    *Rachel’s Song* is divine. Very serene.
    It reminds me of Karl Jenkins’ Adiemus (Songs of Sanctuary) because it has this ‘world music’ feel to it:

    May I give you back…*Solveig’s Song* (from Edvard Grieg’s Peer Gynt Suite).
    Beautiful music from beautiful Norway…

  92. Lyn87 says:

    Boxer,

    I’ll sign on to that as well. I don’t often address “parent stuff” because I’m not one, but on those rare occasions when I’ve opined about deliberate single parenting I have come out against it. I’ll give TFH his due, though, and say that single-fathers-by-choice are generally less likely to do serious damage to children and society that single-mothers-by-choice, but both are bad in my book.

  93. Oscar,

    The Patriarchy gave us Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, etc., etc.

    ….and feminism gave us welfare for single motherhood and multi-generational inner city ghettos, ‘NOW’, abortion & 250 million worldwide unborn dead, unilateral divorce, a ban on DDT and 100,000,000 Sub-Saharan dead, Anne Murray, Helen Ready, Ed Asner, Murphy Brown, POTUS Obama, and his Life of Julia.

  94. Krul says:

    Spacetraveller, I can’t help but notice an excess of sopranos in your recommendations.

    Here, have a few tenors:
    Luciano Pavarotti – La Donna e Mobile
    Pietro Spagnoli – Figaro’s Aria
    Mario Lanza – Vesti la Giubba

    Vesti la Giubba is particularly affecting, don’t you think?

  95. This guy is proof of the bell curve. He joined the LA Philharmonic at age 19 after completing a Masters in Music from Yale, after already completing a bachelors in Biology from Marist. Great violinist.

    A Master’s Degree at 19. 19??????? I didn’t even have my bachelor’s until I was 23.

    Nicely done. Impressive.

  96. Spacetraveller says:

    Oh Krul,

    You are RIGHT!
    I apologise unreservedly for this transgression!
    Life should indeed be balanced.
    Thank you for the tenors – thoroughly enjoyed them.🙂

    I shall make it up to you.

    There should be a piece that combines ALL the voice ranges: the Altos, the Basses, the Tenors, the Sopranos, the Mezzosopranos, everyone.

    I know just the piece for this humungous task!

    Enjoy the finale of Beethoven’s Choral Fantasy!

    Wonderful to see how male and female voices work together to create something beautiful.
    A great example for life, no?

    Thank you for pointing out what I couldn’t see…

  97. greyghost says:

    Just home from work.
    An intentional single dad is a necessity in todays world. Allowing a woman to be a mother is a gift. By law and by culture and as the last week of articles show now by the Christian church woman are not to appreciate the gift. As somebody posted above a lot of them just kill the kid any way. A woman is a helper God said so. Kids needs a mother. What woman today actually is a mother? One of those bitches in Driskell’s church? The unhappy bitch that married and frivorced the beta guy that made a commitment to her? (the guy that has never cheated on her, tries to make her happy, treats her with respect, as an equal, the loser with the 800 credit score that has a 401k and college saving accounts for the kids. yeah assholes like that)
    Kids may need a mother and they went the way of the wife. Stand in line any where and hear and see the love. Check the dumpster behind the “family planning” clinic. Look at the laws they demand. Remember the old drop the kid off at a fire station at any time trick. As TFH has said feminism, and being a father has allowed me to see females as they are.
    I am a married man with three children. I would never ever advice a man I loved to have children if he really wanted them to have them with a woman unless she was dying of cancer and it was on her bucket list. (that is not a joke) Family men that love children and do the best for them including loving their mother have built a very advanced world that allows men that are all over the world to speak in real time to each other and share ideas. He will love his children while she makes a music video to be posted on Dalrocks blog. I would have the kids I have now to do over with no wife. I would hire a nanny. Think real hard how a nanny would be toward you and your children. Chances are she wouldn’t be as a wife and threat point holder the average guy about to be frivorced has.
    Don’t associate the romance of a mother as you knew from child hood with a female in possession of a child. Just because she can threaten to take them from you, collect money and benefits of them, use them to skirt responsibility doesn’t mean she is a mother. And what kid needs that

  98. Krul says:

    Thanks, Spacetraveller, that Choral Fantasy is excellent. And, truth be told, sopranos are rather scarce in my music library so your other recommendations are welcome.

    Anyway, that lovely performance from Peer Gynt naturally reminds me of its most famous portion (made so by Christmas comedies, I think): In the Hall of the Mountain King. Now that’s a fun piece.

  99. Mark Citadel says:

    It’s like the banshees of hell! ughhhhh!!!! MAKE IT STOP!

    Feminism is a mental disorder, and one can note demonic elements within it. Just look at FEMEN in Europe. These are not women. They have discarded womanhood in order to become common beasts.

  100. Shem says:

    Krul, IIRC the world’s oldest song is “Dawn” from Rig Veda.

  101. RichardP says:

    Pretty good countertenor and trumpt. Alison Balsom and Lestyn Davies. If you are in a reflective mood.


    Eternal Source of Light Divine

  102. MarcusD says:

    @Mark

    “But,wimminz reporters are allowed in men’s locker rooms?”

    Well, as they say: “If feminists didn’t have double standards, they’d have no standards at all.”

    And yes, Wynne is a nightmare – both ideologically (contradictions, etc) and administratively, given her mismanagement of nearly everything. How does she do it?

    I’ll try to undo the damage of that awful noise-making that I linked yesterday (calling it “a hyena stuck in a bear trap” is doing an injustice to better music…).

    Anyhow, some stuff I was listening to today:


    (I was actually able to hear this in person – it’s incredible.)

  103. MarcusD says:

    Men must prove a woman said ‘Yes’ under tough new rape rules
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

    What I’m trying to figure out is whether this is just feminists being idiots, or the neo-Malthusians trying to reduce population growth (using feminism as cover).

  104. Krul says:

    Shem, Seikilos is the oldest complete composition, with musical notation and lyrics. The hymns in the Rigveda are apparently only lyrics, though I don’t know for sure.

  105. Shem says:

    “Nobody cares about you, except for you, and perhaps a small group of people you cultivate (the “gang” in the Jack Donovan sense). This is the disadvantage of living in a highly mobile capitalist society, where notions like community are deemed unprofitable. ”

    I always wondered if the “rugged individualism” meme had sinister origins.

  106. MarcusD says:

    NSFW/NSFL:

    Swedish Feminists drink menstrual blood to fight the Patriarchy!

    “En fest för att hylla kvinnan – och mensen”
    http://www.alltomstockholm.se/klubbkonsert/article4119467.aos

    Via: http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=32639

  107. Anonymous Reader says:

    MarcusD
    Men must prove a woman said ‘Yes’ under tough new rape rules

    What I’m trying to figure out is whether this is just feminists being idiots, or the neo-Malthusians trying to reduce population growth (using feminism as cover).

    Neither. As discussed before, “Yes Means Yes Until It Doesn’t” is the Female Imperative racheting up to another level. Another step towards some simulacrum of a Gimbutas-fantasy matriarchy.

  108. Boxer says:

    Dear Marcus:

    I thought that Ramz was exaggerating for comedic effect, but apparently not.

    – We will offer menstrual drinks, says Daniela Kullman… On International Women’s Day on 8 March is the time. This takes Theatre Bristol in Sundbyberg to the menstrual party. The party must both pay tribute to my period but also serve as an educational event. Both knowledge, dancing and frolics promised.

    Much more at:
    http://www.alltomstockholm.se/klubbkonsert/article4119467.aos

    This is really some dark stuff. Freud wrote about pre-patriarchal rituals, like drinking menstrual blood (or other bodily fluids) as weirdo religious rites, by illiterate pagan pinheads.

    Sweden should probably be considered a non-western, uncivilized country, at this point.

    Boxer

  109. Boxer says:

    Dear Fellas:

    Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. Please see below…

    TFH:

    There is reason to believe that a single father is more likely to produce a well-adjusted child than a single mother is (someone else posted research about that once).

    I’m not convinced of this at all. It may look, at this point in history, like single fathers do better than single mothers, but that’s largely because what few single fathers exist are, by definition, quite wealthy. Basically they can hire a team of people to do the jobs that a mother would naturally do.

    If the conception and delivery process were socialized, and any Tom Dick or Harry that felt the need could get a free baby with incentive grant money from the corporate state, then after a couple of generations we’d have some useful datasets.

    The child also doesn’t suffer through a divorce of his/her parents (which arguably is worse than never having had a mother at all).

    No offense mate. I love your work on technology, but this is crazy, and it sounds like something I’d hear from a kooky feminist on Oprah. Wimminz always excuse their excesses with “it’s better for my child” blah blah. Let’s not adopt this ourselves.

    Lyn87:

    I’ll give TFH his due, though, and say that single-fathers-by-choice are generally less likely to do serious damage to children and society that single-mothers-by-choice, but both are bad in my book.

    You’re a great writer and a very sharp thinker. Is there any evidence that the increased accessibility of motherless kids will be a positive trend?

    Greyghost:

    Don’t associate the romance of a mother as you knew from child hood with a female in possession of a child. Just because she can threaten to take them from you, collect money and benefits of them, use them to skirt responsibility doesn’t mean she is a mother. And what kid needs that

    That is a very astute attempt at psychoanalysis, brother. I don’t think I’d have done a better job. Your guess is pretty far off base, though. My own situation is as follows: My mother kidnapped my sister and I one day, while my father was at work. We were taken across an international border (he was the only non-citizen in our family of country number two) before he even knew we were gone. I never had a normal relationship with him again. My mother dumped us both on various relatives who did the work of raising us. (After going to all the trouble of divorcing him and keeping us from him, it seems she didn’t really want too much to do with us).

    I actually only started talking to my father again after I reached adulthood. Both I and my sister have written our mother off completely, largely because she pulled this sick stunt. I haven’t spoken to her since I was a teenager, and have no plans to. That said, I’d have been much better off with a mother. I am grateful to various aunties and to my grandmother for assuming the role, and I’d have been much worse off without them.

    If any dude here wants to go the single father route, I won’t stop him. Far be it from me to tell another man what to do. I’m just one guy with an opinion.

    Best,

    Boxer

  110. MarcusD says:

    @Boxer

    The HDI projections for Sweden are looking quite bad (pg. 41): http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf

    But yes, feminists seem to be insane, contrarian, or both.

  111. A Master’s Degree at 19. 19??????? I didn’t even have my bachelor’s until I was 23.

    Nicely done. Impressive.

    There are quite a few people who finished high school at age 12 to 13, add on the years from there and it’s quite doable to obtain your Masters. I don’t believe these people are super geniuses, I believe their brain probably developed and matured faster than normal. My take anyway.

  112. Mark says:

    @IBB

    “”she was entitled to a proper Jewish marriage where she got whatever she wanted and he had to jump through hoops just to make that happen. “”

    You’re killing me over here!……LOL!

  113. Lyn87 says:

    In response to this that I wrote to Boxer,

    Me: I’ll give TFH his due, though, and say that single-fathers-by-choice are generally less likely to do serious damage to children and society that single-mothers-by-choice, but both are bad in my book.

    He replied with this:

    Boxer: You’re a great writer and a very sharp thinker. Is there any evidence that the increased accessibility of motherless kids will be a positive trend?

    First, thank you. Second, not that I know of, and I suspect that the contrary is true… which is why I am have come out against deliberate single parenting for anyone. And although I agree with TFH that single fatherhood is probably less damaging than single motherhood, neither is desirable. We all know the wreckage caused by single motherhood… it is all around us: it fills our prisons, the dumpsters behind our abortion clinics, our emergency rooms, our ghettos, and our Section 8 housing projects. Generally speaking, children do best with a father in the home. I think most of us would agree that parenting is a two-person job, with men and women playing different and complimentary roles. I’ll go one step further and say that the mother’s role is initially more important, with the emphasis shifting to the father as the child grows toward maturity, but at no point is either role negligible. And just as a mother cannot easily be “the man of the house,” a man cannot easily be “the lady of the house” either. For good or ill, much of what children learn about relationships comes from watching the one right in front of them their entire childhood. Single parenting deprives the children of seeing how to interact with the opposite sex on an adult level.

    None of that is to say that parents are perfect – obviously none are – but to deliberately hide something so basic is to abandon the child to a life of filling in the gaps without your guidance. Although that may sound counter-intuitive, I say that because no matter how much red pill knowledge a man pours out on his children, they won’t SEE it themselves day-to-day.

    Allow me to relate a story that illustrates my point. One of the most interesting seminars I ever attended (during my school teacher days) was about different learning styles, and how important it is to “speak” in such a way that the pupil “hears.” It just so happens that one of the classes I was teaching that semester involved teaching 7th Graders the metric system (gee thanks, Europe…). One of my really bright students couldn’t get it at all. I tried everything I could, but she was nearly in tears. As a straight-A student, this was unusual for her… even the “dumb” kids understood it. But when I went to that seminar I had an epiphany. The girl comes from a very musically-inclined family (something I have no facility for at all – I can’t carry a tune in a bucket or play any instruments). But I had read a book that included some references to the music of ancient Sparta, and one line that stuck out to me was when one of the characters referred to the “mathematics of music,” or words to that effect. Then it hit me… I don’t know much about music, but I know that musical notes are arranged in scales, and I also know that the metric system is based on powers of ten. So before the next class period I borrowed a glockenspiel from the music room and labeled seven of the keys thus: milli-, centi-, deci-, liter/meter/gram, deca-, hecto-, and kilo- (highest pitch to lowest pitch). I gave the thing to the girl and told her that whenever I used any of those words, she was to strike the corresponding key. Within about an hour she didn’t need it any more – because I sidestepped her mental block by linking the metric system’s mathematical scales directly to the part of her subconscious mind that intuitively understands musical scales.

    Now to the point of my little story: I could tell her about how the metric system works all day long, but until I delivered it to her in a way she could understand, I might as well have been speaking in Klingon. Likewise, a father can tell his kids about relationships for 18 years, and some of them will “get it,” but the lessons will be lost entirely on some kids, and none of them will have the reinforcement of both hearing and seeing.

    Widowhood is a great tragedy for either sex, and doubly so if there are small children. We rightly feel pity for the surviving family members. Why would anyone create those conditions on purpose, unless there was no other way?

    So as to link this to the OP – I could not have pulled that off using feminist “music.” It took the very ordered (dare I say masculine?) musical scale to successfully transmit the knowledge.

  114. Mark says:

    @MarcusD

    I have had a bit of experience with a Swedish woman.I was 21 she was 20.I met her here in Toronto.She seemed nice,great body etc.I ended up sleeping with her on the first night I met her.I saw her about 3 times after that.The thing about her that floored me was her very liberal promiscuity.She told me that her parents liked it when she brought men home for sex as that was expected so that when she got married,she would be experienced.This really was the norm for her and her friends.At first I did not believe her.I asked and older,very worldly gentleman at the Synagogue about this and he assured me that she was telling the truth.

  115. They are, surely, aware that every time they start bitching someone will just post a link to that noise now?

  116. Bluepillprofessor says:

    I hate to date myself…but as long as we are sharing the classics. This one has some untimely and relevant to the topic lyrics.

  117. I hate to date myself…but as long as we are sharing the classics. This one has some untimely and relevant to the topic lyrics.

    Much like Simon and Garfunkel, Elton John, Boston, & Guns and Roses, the debut album from Led Zeppelin was a full decade ahead of its time.

  118. Jon0 says:

    Bottom line: men seek wives/women for only a few very basic reasons; companionship, encouragement, sex, by no means in that order. No true man ever needed a woman to clean his house or tell him what to wear or supplement his income or feed him. Feminism misses this truth completely. Men, this is a call to remind them of this inerrant truth. What God saw need for in the Garden with Adam is no less true today.

  119. Got a couple very nice easy listening songs that make you feel young again just be listening to them….

  120. …and just one more.

    Pure artwork.

  121. greyghost says:

    Boxer
    No intention of psychoanalysis the comment you quoted was a general comment for men in general. My guess it is fairly accurate. Men love and have empathy and that get projected. Say “mother” to a man and he will fill in the blanks. MGTOW is a work around and is an effective one for the long term benefit of the west. The other alternative is blood letting civil war fought with pure hatred and revenge. Or we can just go along as we are. My energy is better spent developing a male lifestyle that is not based on a woman being a “good” woman.
    Fathers are what it takes. Single dads raising their children can not and will not duplicate the heroic single mom.

  122. cynthia says:

    I’m partial to Thomas Bergersen myself. Him, and other composers in his genre, are doing new things with classical music without making it hideous (as seems to have been the trend since the 1930s)

  123. The Brass Cat says:

    Where can I get the sheet music? I need it for an open mic night.

  124. Tam the Bam says:

    “Another step towards some simulacrum of a Gimbutas-fantasy matriarchy.”
    As you say, a fantasy. But even Maggie Gee’s archeologically illiterate ragbag of items exquisite enough to be abstracted by intuitutive connossieurs like her from the vast garbage-dump of the Balkan and East Mediterranean neolithic (and allied trades) didn’t have a happy ending, did it?
    Unless you were the one wearing the trousers.

  125. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Brass Cat – “Where can I get the sheet music? I need it for an open mic night.”

    I suddenly have an image of Christopher Walken doing a reading of this. There goes my coffee.

  126. Michael Neal says:

    can someone find a video of this but put together by infowars? I want to share but that group is a bit nuts

  127. Michael Neal says:

    not put together by infowars i mean

  128. This has become my ringtone!

  129. Boxer says:

    Dear Grey Ghost:

    No intention of psychoanalysis the comment you quoted was a general comment for men in general. My guess it is fairly accurate.

    I think you’re right, because you’re thinking along the same lines I do whenever I encounter an argument like this.

    I know the power of the “fuck you, mom!” channel, because I was stuck navigating those waters for many years. Eventually, people realize that being angry at all women isn’t making their own lives better. Not only do most women not deserve this, but those who do probably get a kick out of the idea that someone is wasting his time being angry at them.

    I’m open to the possibility that I’ve swung too far in the opposite direction, though, and am giving undue credit to the average woman.

    Fathers are what it takes. Single dads raising their children can not and will not duplicate the heroic single mom.

    I’m not saying that single fathers would be as terrible as single mothers at the job of parenting. I’d guess they’d screw their kids up in slightly different ways than single mothers do, but that’s only a guess. My position is that we don’t know exactly what the effects would be, and since we already have a tried and true model, which we know is effective (ie monogamy and patriarchy) we should stick with that as our ideal situation.

    To expound… When a millionaire celebrity decides to yougogirl herself into motherhood, either through adoption or aritificial insemination, she’s often successful, but only because she has the resources to send her bastard to good schools, hire coaches and nannies, and basically outsource the job of father to a bunch of employed professionals (who, despite being salaried, often don’t do as good a job as a natural father would). Society survives on the fallacy that these cases are the norm, but as we all know, they’re not.

    I think the manosphere is coming dangerously close to replicating this fallacy. What few single fathers there are today are generally the top tier of men, who have family support in place and enough money to smooth the gaps. Encouraging average dudes to do this, or painting it as though it’s a solution to systemic problems, is a big mistake, in my view.

    Anyway, good talking to you bro.

    Boxer

  130. Feminist Poetry! Now just the menstrual blood martinis and the stage is set!

  131. mikediver5 says:

    I am skipping ahead after reading Boxer’s assertion that the reason single fathers produce better children than single mothers is because there are so few single fathers (unfortunately true) and they are all very wealthy (show me the numbers or shut up). As a man that raised children on my own after the death of my wife, let me say that I was not wealthy. My wife died when the youngest of our six was 3. He has no memory of his mother. I have known a few (very few) other single fathers and none of them were rich either. I had no hired help. I come from a large and close Irish family. I did have the help of family when I needed it. I have helped family when it was needed too. That is natural in a family.

    I take great pride in my children and how they have become upstanding responsible adults, however, I won’t use them as the examples. The literature is full of studies that show that single father headed households are much better and much safer for children than those headed by women. I have six sisters, most of whom raised their children on their own for a significant portion of the children’s lives. They tell me that they are amazed at how well my children have turned out (not said but, in comparison to their results). Women are just not capable of raising children past about age 5. This is well known and has been proven over and over in statistical studies controlling for socio-economic factors. This does not mean that the widow will always have bad children, but rather that the odds are against her and I salute those that beat the odds by working their asses off.

    My brother in law is in transition as a transgender, so I know quite a few of the LGBT group. One of my brother in law’s friends is a gay guy of about my age that had a daughter via surrogacy. He is of the flaming variety, which puts me off, but he has been a good father and son. His daughter graduated from high school last year and is a fine, respectful, lady. He also cares for his very old and feeble father. The father takes constant care. The daughter helps with this care. You really can’t see a better outcome in terms of raising a fine human being.

  132. Boxer says:

    Dear MikeDiver5:

    I am skipping ahead after reading Boxer’s assertion that the reason single fathers produce better children than single mothers is because there are so few single fathers (unfortunately true) and they are all very wealthy

    Straw man. Provide quote please. (you can’t, of course).

    (show me the numbers or shut up).

    This took me one second to find with a three word google search: “single father income”

    https://www.legalmomentum.org/sites/default/files/reports/SingleParentSnapshot2014.pdf

    Single fathers earn, on average, about 150 percent of what single mothers earn. This makes sense, because the average surrogacy costs around 40,000 dollars.

    Your anecdotes are interesting, but aren’t persuasive. The fact that you got primary custody after your divorce suggests to me that your wife was a nutter and (not or) that you had the money and energy to drive her out of divorce court. It’s quite an accomplishment, and I’m glad your kids are well. That doesn’t mean you should be the model for the average dude.

    As an aside, appeals to emotion are especially inappropriate where the well being of little kids are concerned. It’s a feminist tactic and not one that I’d be interested in entertaining further.

    Regards,

    Boxer

  133. The Brass Cat says:

    Boxer says:

    When a millionaire celebrity decides to yougogirl herself into motherhood, either through adoption or aritificial insemination, she’s often successful, but only because she has the resources to send her bastard to good schools, hire coaches and nannies, and basically outsource the job of father to a bunch of employed professionals (who, despite being salaried, often don’t do as good a job as a natural father would). Society survives on the fallacy that these cases are the norm, but as we all know, they’re not.

    I think the manosphere is coming dangerously close to replicating this fallacy. What few single fathers there are today are generally the top tier of men, who have family support in place and enough money to smooth the gaps.

    Yes, these are variants of the Apex Fallacy. Everyone in the manosphere should be aware that most of us are not millionaires or top tier, therefore should not expect millionaire or top tier results. These cases are atypical. YMMV.

  134. mikediver5 says:

    Let me add one more point. Holding the two parent monogamous family as the ideal situation for having and raising children is fine, but that is not really on offer. I could give the statistics by using the probabilities of various outcomes and calculating the net expected values of the two choices facing a man that wants children; surrogacy and marriage 2.0. However, most here would be bored to tears with the calculations. Let me just say that getting married in order to provide the IDEAL conditions to raise your children is a fool’s errand. With marriage 2.0 the man is likely to be thrown out of his home and family and out of the lives of his children. The result for the man getting married for this purpose is, let us say, at best a 50/50 chance the children will be raised by a single mother, or as I prefer to call it the worst case scenario. The surrogacy route will not produce the ideal situation, but will preclude the worst case scenario. And in marriage 2.0 the outcome is totally out of the man’s hands. He has no control over the outcome. His children’s welfare is 100% at the whim of his wife/ex-wife.

  135. mikediver5 says:

    Boxer challenged me to prove via quote that he claimed that the single fathers were rich, and claimed it is impossible. Let me then do the impossible.

    Boxer: “I’m not convinced of this at all. It may look, at this point in history, like single fathers do better than single mothers, but that’s largely because what few single fathers exist are, by definition, quite wealthy. Basically they can hire a team of people to do the jobs that a mother would naturally do.

    He went on to show a study that single fathers earn about 150% of what single mothers earn. The key word in this is earned. There is no mention of the huge financial transfers that grossly supplement the single mothers earned income. I received a small portion of these transfers myself. When I was at my lowest income level, $1200/year, I received a $4,000 refund on absolutely nothing withheld due to the earned income tax credit which usually goes to women. I also received survivor’s benefits from Social Security. I did not receive any other support from the state; no section 8 housing, no child support, no WIC, nor any of the other many programs designed and provided to supplement single mother’s earned income. The 50% higher income earned by single fathers is because they have to earn it; while single mothers don’t have to.

    Let me also add that Boxer needs to read more carefully. I did not get full custody of my children after my divorce because my wife was a nutter. She died.

  136. Boxer says:

    Mike Diver sez:

    The literature is full of studies that show that single father headed households are much better and much safer for children than those headed by women.

    Then he sez:

    Holding the two parent monogamous family as the ideal situation for having and raising children is fine, but that is not really on offer. I could give the statistics by using the probabilities of various outcomes and calculating the net expected values of the two choices facing a man that wants children; surrogacy and marriage 2.0. However, most here would be bored to tears with the calculations.

    I wouldn’t be bored to tears by it. I think it’s interesting. I also expect you will cite your sources (as I did, when you asked politely) rather than just running off at the mouth.

    If we’re getting too far off topic, you’d be welcome at http://v5k2c2.wordpress.com/ at your convenience. I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong, of course; but my point is that we don’t know what would happen if single fatherhood became prevalent, and I don’t think I’m wrong about that, because it’s not prevalent.

    Boxer

  137. mikediver5 says:

    I may have given the impressionthere was a divorce; there was none. We were married until death did us part.

  138. Boxer says:

    Let me also add that Boxer needs to read more carefully. I did not get full custody of my children after my divorce because my wife was a nutter. She died.

    That was my mistake and I apologize. I was writing hastily and I conflated your personal situation with a general trend among single fathers. I’ll proofread more carefully in the future.

    All that aside, we don’t seem to disagree. You said yourself you had a lot of help from family. Many men don’t have these sorts of support structures in place, and wouldn’t fare as well as you did.

    Boxer

  139. mikediver5 says:

    Boxer has not acknowledged that he did in fact assert that the single fathers were “by definition” all quite wealthy.

  140. RichardP says:

    A little investigation would show you critics what it is you are critiqueing. The presentation at the top of this thread is by the Belgian Theatre Company “Ontroerend Goed”. The composer of the “music” you hear in the video posted at the top was composed by a man – Joris Blanckaert. The theatre piece is called “Sirens”, and the video posted at the top is but a part of the entire production. A production directed by a man – Alexander Devriendt. At least some of the women in the production describe themselves as not feminist.

    Despite the hideous sound, it actually takes quite a bit of skill to “perform” the piece in the video. It is performance art – meant to provoke emotions and thought (as evidenced by the comments here). It is not meant to be music that you should enjoy while listening, as so much of the other videos posted here actually is.

    The yipping and yapping here of folks who don’t actually know what they are yipping and yapping at reminds me of the words from some other theatre: father forgive them, for they know not what they do. I really am ashamed of the willingness to criticize something when you didn’t even know what it was. I thought only women were supposed to do that.

    http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2014/dec/02/feminism-ontroerend-goed-sirens-soho-theatre
    http://www.thestage.co.uk/edinburgh-reviews/73539/sirens/

  141. mikediver5 says:

    Let me put this to rest. I am not proposing that we should abandon monogamous two parent families and shift to single father households. I am trying to say is that with the choices facing a young man today, not the ideal that is no longer available; the choice of surrogacy is not inexcusable or irrational.

    I can agree with Boxer that perhaps the number of single father households may not be significant enough to draw inferences. What we can say categorically is that single mother households have been a disaster. Perhaps it is time to try something else. I would be happy to go back to the white picket fence two parent families “Leave it to Beaver” world, however, women do not seem to be choosing this. Since all the power to decide the conditions of the family have been placed in the hands of women, it is their choices that we must take into account.

  142. Despite the hideous sound, it actually takes quite a bit of skill to “perform” the piece in the video. It is performance art – meant to provoke emotions and thought (as evidenced by the comments here). It is not meant to be music that you should enjoy while listening, as so much of the other videos posted here actually is.

    LOL!

  143. Boxer says:

    Boxer has not acknowledged that he did in fact assert that the single fathers were “by definition” all quite wealthy.

    I didn’t assert that. I asserted that in general single fathers are the types of men that:

    *prevail in divorce court
    *have the disposable income and family support to go through the adoption/surrogacy process.

    These are, by definition, not the average man. They are a tier above me (and I am the average man).

    Best,

    Boxer

  144. Novaseeker says:

    OT, but your SAHM is going to be looking to be comped vaycay time soon: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2015/02/05/stay-at-home-moms-need-annual-leave-too/

    I’d expect the “week alone” will of course naturally be her high fertility/horniness week — why bother going on vacation alone otherwise?

    Yet more for clueless beta husbands to look forward to, it seems.

  145. earl says:

    The week alone was very telling. If it’s a parents vacation away from kids that’s one thing…the alone trips are another.

  146. Scott says:

    It is not meant to be music that you should enjoy while listening…

    This is the typical speak of the modern/atonal/avant garde set. It is “art” because of the emotions it provokes, which are decidely anti-burgeois as it happens.

    If it is not meant to be pleasant, then prior to the modern age it did not meet the definition of “art.”

    It is not meant to be music that you enjoy while listening = it should offend or upset your sensibilities.

    Then I and my delicate middle class sensibilities will indeed trash it. Because it is trash.

  147. Tam the Bam says:

    ” performance art – meant to provoke emotions and thought (as evidenced by the comments here)”
    Yessir. My immediate reflection was “damn’, that reminds me, I wonder if The Farmer up the track been setting (hideously illegal) wire snares again?”

  148. Random Angeleno says:

    Will say this about previously married mothers: believe someone said it makes a big difference if she is now single via divorce or via widowhood. I can buy that as there is going to be a huge difference in how the father is regarded by the mother, and in turn by the children.

    For Boxer’s benefit, the courts are almost completely stacked against men with respect to child custody. If wife is still alive, husband has to prove her unfit in order to win sole physical custody. That is a really high bar thanks to the court bias, hence she has to stoop really really low to lose. Don’t know that I’d bet on it, but I would not be surprised to find out there are more widowers among single fathers than there are fathers who have won physical custody in a divorce. As I said, it’s a different dynamic presented to the kids.

  149. Novaseeker says:

    The week alone was very telling. If it’s a parents vacation away from kids that’s one thing…the alone trips are another.

    Exactly. Two very different things.

  150. @Boxer

    I think the manosphere is coming dangerously close to replicating this fallacy. What few single fathers there are today are generally the top tier of men, who have family support in place and enough money to smooth the gaps. Encouraging average dudes to do this, or painting it as though it’s a solution to systemic problems, is a big mistake, in my view.

    Im going to wade in and agree with this. While surely its not JUST top tier men in terms of resources, it does correlate to resources. Same time it is indeed top tier men in terms of integrity and work ethic and morality who even under-resourced, manage to excel at child raising.

    To say the manosphere is replicating the fallacy in the overarching sense of the manosphere….abso-freakin-lutely if you accept the three things I mentioned as character traits as valid (and add to the list, mine is not comprehensive)

  151. Mark says:

    Everyone is posting music videos.I don’t want to be left out.This one goes out to Dalrock and Greyghost……..Long Live The Great State of Texas!

  152. Random Angeleno says:

    @TFH, you forgot adoption. Best done by a father-mother couple, of course.

  153. hoellenhund2 says:

    As far as single men hiring surrogates, that will never become a practice done beyond very few men.

    Agreed. It doesn’t matter how many red pill men promote surrogacy and single motherhood, if they do. Most men won’t opt to become single fathers for the same reason a growing segment of men simply don’t bother to court women and prepare themselves for marriage and/or fatherhood: generally speaking, the pain isn’t worth the gain. I’m sure being a single father by choice is basically a huge pain in the ass in every respect, much different from being a single mother.

  154. hoellenhund2 says:

    Men must prove a woman said ‘Yes’ under tough new rape rules

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

    What I’m trying to figure out is whether this is just feminists being idiots, or the neo-Malthusians trying to reduce population growth (using feminism as cover).

    It’s neither. Such laws are designed to basically make women feel safe while retaining their sexual autonomy.

  155. Red Knight says:

    In all seriousness, that video clip is taken out of context. Their howling may have made contextual sense within the play it was part of. It wasn’t meant to be a standalone work of art.

  156. earl says:

    ‘I’m sure being a single father by choice is basically a huge pain in the ass in every respect, much different from being a single mother.’

    That’s the thing…men can forsee it being a huge pain in the ass because raising children isn’t exactly easy work. The idea of two parents raising children as opposed to one certainly is helpful. I can do a lot of things on my own, but there is no way I could willingly raise a child by myself without a lot of outside help. I have no idea what women forsee what raising a kid as a single parent would be like, but many choose that option anyway.

  157. JDG says:

    I really am ashamed of the willingness to criticize something when you didn’t even know what it was.

    Richard – 1st, the BBC is using this “art” to promote feminism, which automatically places it opposed to anything genuinely Christian. 2nd, you could make the same argument you have made for every other piece of modern “art” from (sensitive readers avert your eyes) soaking a crucifix in urine to exhibits featuring a woman’s menstrual cycle. We know what it is, and it has been called out for what it is – more PC none sense where people are supposed to pretend that something obnoxious, perverse, and sometimes even blasphemous is acceptable and tasteful. Your trying to use holy scripture (completely out of context) to defend such lunacy is insulting.

  158. JDG says:

    In all seriousness, that video clip is taken out of context. Their howling may have made contextual sense within the play it was part of. It wasn’t meant to be a standalone work of art.

    Well the piece wasn’t alluring, seductive, intriguing, or even scary. I suppose it could have been meant to represent the Sirens of the sea in an annoying or comedic context, but we are talking about a feminist production here (being male does not stop the producers from being feminist), so that most likely eliminates the comedic intent angle.

  159. Eidolon says:

    “so that most likely eliminates the comedic intent angle.”

    Context does change it a lot. I could totally see it as a Monty Python sketch actually. “Alright, from the top” — then horrible caterwauling, and then the hilarious touch of turning the page on the sheet music. “That was good, but Cindy, you were a little bit in tune. Please make sure you’re following the score, dear.”

  160. Eidolon says:

    I find it odd that anyone would defend the screeching above. It’s “not supposed to sound good,” and it’s “taken out of context.” Let’s say you took 15 seconds out of context from any of the pieces of music that were posted — you’re losing some understanding, sure, but does that make the music complete garbage? Of course not. A given few seconds of any of those pieces is still good. They don’t need the full context to be worthwhile.

    Music has ways to convey ugliness without being ugly; they are well established. Music can convey the horrors of war, and many other awful, ugly things. It’s modern pretension to think that it’s necessary to abandon all the knowledge that humanity has gained of music over the centuries in order to convey something — they’re saying “what I’m saying is so important, that convention should be abandoned to drive it home,” or perhaps “existing forms are insufficient to convey my brilliance.” It’s stupid. Sure, people in the past have used new means of musical expression, but they didn’t abandon everything. The greatest geniuses often expand the bounds within the framework of what we already knew.

  161. cynthia says:

    Despite the hideous sound, it actually takes quite a bit of skill to “perform” the piece in the video. It is performance art – meant to provoke emotions and thought (as evidenced by the comments here). It is not meant to be music that you should enjoy while listening, as so much of the other videos posted here actually is.

    It also takes quite a bit of skill to torture somebody to death, and I imagine there are quite a few emotions provoked in victim along the way.

    What is the point of music if it is intentionally pitched as to be miserable to listen to? The thing you defenders of post-modernism invariably fail to understand is that when something is presented as art, people expect to derive some kind of pleasure from it.

  162. Lyn87 says:

    Sorry, RichardP, but everything about that is trash. For some reason, starting around the end of the 19th Century and accelerating since then, “artsy” people have been churning out crap that is similar what every grade-school-age child produces all the time in Art class. I challenge anyone to visit a museum of modern art, then go to the display area of any public elementary school Art room, and see if they can tell the difference between what is displayed in the two locations. Let’s be honest – if somebody put a nice frame on some chimpanzee’s finger painting and hung it in the Museum of Modern Art in New York in the place of a modern “masterpiece,” nobody would notice, and guys like you would gawk at it in rapturous wonder.

    It’s not bad enough that the “artsy” people pretend that there is some “deep hidden meaning” in their splashes of paint… or blood… or urine… or feces, or in their sculptures that consist of welding pieces of scrap metal together, or their “prose” that is composed of random thoughts, often not even in complete sentences, or “music” like the clip you’re defending, which is indistinguishable from the howling of a pack of jackals. No… that’s not bad enough, because what is worse is that these nitwits have the gall to insist that everyone else join them in their delusions and pretend that the random nonsense they produce is actually “High Art.”

    It is not. Take the tests:

    I got 70% correct on Can You Tell The Difference Between Modern Art And Paintings By Toddlers? Choose between two.

    I got 30% correct on Million-Dollar Masterpiece Or Child’s Art Project? Choose between three.

  163. Mark Citadel says:

    Sweden is a cesspit. It will fall to Islam soon. They actually have compulsory ‘dress like a girl day’ for boys in some preschools there. Dying civilization.

  164. These are, by definition, not the average man.

    Yes. To win full custody today, a father needs one of the following:

    * The mother is dead.
    * The mother is in prison (this will usually do it, although he may have to fight her parents or other relatives).
    * The mother has disappeared or signed away custody (again, will usually work).
    * There is a huge disparity between the man’s wealth and character versus the woman’s (as in: he’s a well-respected doctor and part-time conductor of the city orchestra, and she’s a crack whore with three DUIs and an arrest for setting his car on fire), AND he gets a fair judge who doesn’t automatically find for the mother every time.

    So it only stands to reason that the kind of men who have sole custody of their kids today tend to be outstanding specimens. The unemployed guy with a bit of a drinking problem might as well not show up for the court battle. So the guys who do win full custody don’t necessarily bear any relation to the average guy who might end up with the kids if the courts suddenly turned pro-father tomorrow. Maybe they’d still be better than the single mommas (I think so), but we don’t know that; and we don’t know how much better, or what different set of problems might arise with them.

    It should be possible to believe both A) being raised by a father alone is better than being raised by a mother alone, in the majority of cases; and B) a father and mother together is the ideal, and is far better than either one alone, in the majority of cases.

  165. greyghost says:

    My position is that we don’t know exactly what the effects would be, and since we already have a tried and true model, which we know is effective (ie monogamy and patriarchy) we should stick with that as our ideal situation.

    This is the ideal and it is more than that such a country that can have a woman behave and still be a woman is a red pill civilization. MGTOW family man is just a way to that ideal.

    let’s not forget what we have discussed here. Remember the married men make more money ,healthier, etc. etc. One of the things we have discussed and how damaging to the nation the “grass eaters” of Japan are is that the men are unmarriagable do to no effort being made to be traditionally marriageable. He doesn’t try top produce income to support a family works for just enough to support himself. A man that wants children will be productive in the same way a sap is thinking he is impressing some woman to marry. Think of the benefit to society to have 100 percent of the male population working to support a surrogate family. Also that man has to work for it and want it no different than a man deliberately sacrificing himself to marriage thinking he is doing his children a favor providing a “mother” for his children. (we know how this works) The average guy isn’t going that route.
    Women in general opt to be single moms through divorce or otherwise for the income. That is why poor women have kids. And poor men don’t unless some bitch is getting herself knocked up.
    http://www.edgedallas.com/news/family/news//148508/via_surrogacy,_some_men_opt_to_become_single_dads_

  166. greyghost says:

    Over all I have enjoyed this conversation on single father hood mikediver5 I really liked your comments on the subject.

  167. Shem says:

    “Sweden should probably be considered a non-western, uncivilized country, at this point. ”

    Others would consider it the apex of western civilization, with its complete lack of sexual modesty and completely crushing any taboo around menstruation. Eastern civilizations still follow certain taboos around menstruation and sexuality. You might not believe this either but the USA is considered quite prudish by western Europeans. We Americans may think we’ve dropped the ball with feminism and the sexual revolution but compared to many west European countries we haven’t even gotten started.

  168. Michael Neal says:

    There is absolutely no “context” that would make this good music!

  169. Wayne and Garth says:

    My brain and my privates both just tried to retreat further into my body.

    Leonard Pinth-Garnell would be proud.

  170. tz says:

    So this is what the PC Police Sirens sound like.
    There is worse – Schoenberg and other atonality, but at least it has its own warped patterning.
    I used to say it was hard to call something which lacked melody, harmony, or rhythm “music”, but this not merely lacks them, it doesn’t even attempt them since you would need at least two things that would provide contrast.
    I would also note the lack of minorities in the choir, perhaps we should just call it “white noise”.

  171. APL says:

    Richard P: “The yipping and yapping here of folks who don’t actually know what they are yipping and yapping at reminds me of the words from some other theatre”

    If some guy ( or gal ) with lots of his own money, were to commission a piece like this, then that would be his own affiar. This is State sponsored ‘art’, ( in this case using another organ of the state to propagate it ) which if one were to be kind, but terse, is to say rubbish.

    The wealthy guy ( or gal ) too, may commission ‘rubbish’ if he or she so chooses, and in the UK Sattchi, for example, has done so on a grand scale. But then he ends up with a lot of expensive, but worthless trash, and the problem of what to do with it when the fashon that spawned it passes.

    Some collectors have been known to put it all in a warehouse and the whole lot ‘accidently’ gets burned down, a ‘disaster’ for the modern art industry, of course. But not so much for the owner who may ‘clean up like a bandit’ with the insurance company.

  172. Marc says:

    Well, atonal music does have it’s place….in a horror film:

  173. Sounds like they’re covering a song by Alanis Morissete.

  174. mrteebs says:

    As much as I laughed at this “music,” and mocked it in a comment somewhere above, I stumbled across this rather strange website/post that actually makes a kind of perverse sense out of all this by linking it to the spotted hyena – no joke. Curious what others think about this:

    http://www.remnantbride.com/hyena/spotted.htm

    I am undecided myself if Gary Naler – the author of the site – is a nutjob or not, and the article above is probably a 15 minute read until you get down to the connection between his commentary on hyenas and this feminist choral (apparently called “Sirens”), but the closing minute or two of video with hyenas superimposed and juxtaposed with the “singing” is eerie. I do recommend persevering and reading through the whole article (even though overly dramatic in places) as well as the two linked videos at the end. It is thought-provoking if nothing else.

    Dalrock, that article might actually make for an interesting topic here. I’m sure you’d do it justice. The animal kingdom seems to be making a statement about where all of this is heading, or actually has already taken us. The symbolism is fascinating, as is the contrast with the symbolism of the lion and how it treats the hyenas.

  175. mrteebs says:

    The external genitalia stuff was morbidly fascinating. The parallels to the culture / behavior / consequences feminism has given us are actually a lot less contrived than I would have imagined.

  176. Opus says:

    For some reason that I cannot quite explain I completed missed this thread, which is a pity as it should have been right up my street – perhaps I just wished to avoid pointless disagreement – for I have got to say (looking at the favoured videos linked) that predictably you all with rare exceptions have the most appalling taste (SpaceTraveller – female – is one of the worst culprits here).

    You won’t want to hear this, but there is no doubt in my mind that the serious music of the last seventy years or so simply out classes in terns of technique skill and originality just about everything that has gone before – no matter how delightful – in much the same way that the physicists of the twentieth century have left those who came before a poor second.

    In the main, however, female composers do not tend to sound like the banshee wailing excerpts above. They are not among the great composers of the recent past (any more than they are of earlier centuries) and tend to operate on a middle ground neither too demanding nor too obviously banal (and there is a certain amount of the banal much praised in this thread). I have to say I like a fair amount of female penned music but I suspect that when the dust has settled and the great composers of the early twenty-first century are decided upon that even the best of the women (like Unsuk Ch’in – is she really little more than a Ligetti clone?) – will be absent.

  177. Jim says:

    “You won’t want to hear this, but there is no doubt in my mind that the serious music of the last seventy years or so simply out classes in terns of technique skill and originality just about everything that has gone before – ”

    LOL. Looks like someone needs a pair of ears.

  178. JDG says:

    “You won’t want to hear this, but there is no doubt in my mind that the serious music of the last seventy years or so simply out classes in terns of technique skill and originality just about everything that has gone before – ”

    lol

    This has got to be satire. The last 70 years of serious music out classes Bach and Beethoven? Nope. This time frame doesn’t even allow for the early works of Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, and the like. Nope on outclassing them too.

    I would put some of the work in the last 70 years (from Monk, Clark, Tatum, ect.) on pare with those early Jazz musicians, but to say that serious music after 1945 is more original and technically skilled than all the works put out before then is quite a stretch.

  179. Opus says:

    I said that what you would not want to hear what I had to say. On re-reading what I wrote I cannot think that there is anything that I may profitably add – no point flogging a dead horse – for my arguments, very briefly put, do not improve with repetition, nor do I retract my views.

    Taking a section from a piece of music very much out of context – and it is not the first time BBC Newsnight have done this, for they did it to mock Malcolm Williamson – and then berating, in this case females, for that, is simply unfair – a straw-man argument in fact.

  180. Opus says:

    There is one thing I can add (following JDG’s comment at 05.29pm) namely: that apart from two of the Bs (Brahms was missing) the six other musicians he mentions are all – how shall I put it – concerned with Jazz. Without getting into why such music fails to impress me, I cannot but observe that those six are all American and none were what would be termed serious musicians (serious – an unhappy word, but the term classical tends to be both misleading and understate its position and thus serious is the usual term to be used).

    JDG might perhaps have addressed himself to those serious musicians who are his fellow countrymen, (I would only count second generation and older thus I would include Conlon Nancarrow but not Percy Grainger – decamped to Mexico and came from the empire, respectively) but even were he to have done so, none of them would in my view be amongst the top flight of composers of the period since the second world war – and I am not being deliberately anti-american as I would not include any other sort of Anglo in my chosen list – and I am not unaware of the merits of the so-called New York School or the West Coast minimalists). My chosen few all come from western Europe and are all white and all male (with just perhaps one Jew in their number). The point I want to make is this: that it is surely absurd were anyone to do so, to suggest that post 1945, women in some way been oppressed and thus unable to compete at the highest level; yet of the extraordinary music that has been produced none of it comes from females (unless you have a taste for Ustvolskaya or Gubaidulina – certainly Stravinsky was under-impressed when visiting Moscow by the former. Most female composers are competent – but nothing more, pleasant but undemanding and in the case of Ch’in, as I mentioned, I have more than a gnawing suspicion that she is very much a clone of Ligeti.

  181. JDG says:

    serious – an unhappy word, but the term classical tends to be both misleading and understate its position and thus serious is the usual term to be used

    Apologies Opus, I truly did misunderstand what you intended. In my neck of the woods (a very uncultured neck at that) jazz is considered VERY serious (as in you have to seriously practice if you want to play like that).

    Also, my bad for leaving out Brahms and an ensemble of other “classical” musicians (early classical guitar players comes to mind).

    I’m in total agreement with you on female composers. I remember writing as much somewhere some months back.

  182. Opus says:

    @JDG

    I like writing about music, I think about it a lot. Please do not think I have anything against Louis van B or J.S.Bach. In my studio (the other room) I have a fair number of their scores, not the suites Dalrock linked – I am not a cellist – but The Forty-Eight, the Partitas, that sort of thing and various orchestral scores – expensive to own, I am afraid, so not as many as i would like. Music however has developed (and that is my point) just as has Physics – modern composers stand on the shoulders of giants.

    The Greeks had their modes but nothing was written down. That had to wait until the middle-ages when some genius invented the stave – I never cease to be amazed at what just five (originally four) parallel lines repeated as many times as you like can achieve. That led to Polyphony (to the credit of the church) . That in turn led to Fugue. The examination fugue remains what one must achieve if one wants to acquire those letter after ones name which shows one really can manipulate the parts of music, but as even the great Hector Berlioz observed one cannot write a fugue without sounding like Bach (that is to say as if one were still in the eighteenth century, and as another Frenchman Boulez observed on the subject ‘Who needs it’ – new ones that is).

    So music has developed such that if one compares a score such as Beethoven’s Fifth with Stravinsky’s Sacre – – a mere one hundred and seven years apart, no matter how much you may love Beethoven the difference between those two works (arguably the greatest purely orchestral works of respectively the nineteenth and twentieth centuries) are like chalk and cheese, but even Sacre is pretty old hat these days when even youth orchestras take it in their stride.

    There do however seem to be more female composers these days, and I am not sure whether this is affirmative action or whether the seam running dry, is being filled by women. Of course this is not the first time: if one looks at lists of top nineteenth century English composers there are a fair number of females but so far history has felt it necessary to consign them to oblivion – as happens to most males of course but those whose names are known and whose music is still played all tend to be males – I have yet to hear so much as one note by Dame Ethyl Smyth, a woman all six of whose operas were performed in her lifetime – would Frederick Delius [formerly an inhabitant of the State of Florida] could say the same of his six (only three the performed in his lifetime) – so affirmative action and caving into ball-busting women is clearly not a new thing.

    What however is the point of it if you are a woman. I was listening to (I had taped it a few weeks back) one in a series where an interviewer (Sarah Mohr-Peitsch) visits various composer’s homes – most interesting. Anyway, on this occasion she went to visit a thirty-three year old single childless (so far as one can tell) female who had moved to Berlin and was living in a rented apartment – originally rented by a conductor so he may have been an alpha male she was chasing. She was coming up with some hamsterisation about how one could be oneself in Berlin, but there she is, all alone, stuck indoors, about to hit the wall, producing pretty music, no real home, nor real career and no husband or family. If as happens, a man fails at composition (as most do – only half a dozen in England can make a living full-time from writing always assuming one would be happy sitting at a desk eight hours a day) then no one cares, but being a woman and living in a garret where one probably does not even properly understand the language is surely pointless. When she hits the wall and is no longer the latest thing, then (England being England) she will be promptly forgotten in favour of the latest monthly flavour.

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