Continuing the discussion.

Vox continues the discussion from  and Must a Traditional Man Accept Modern Marriage? with his new post:  Nihilists vs Civilizationists

…whereas Roissy and I obviously respect each other despite our different purposes, those who incline more towards his “fiddle while Rome burns” perspective are considerably less able to view those differences in the abstract than Roissy, while those who are more focused on saving civilization from itself, (or at least preserving the seeds of civilization as the fire sweeps through the forest), are considerably less able to view the fiddlers with the same sort of equanimity that I am.

What both camps have in common is a diagnosis. Where they differ is the prescription. This is why they are not functional allies in the long term.  Their immediate objectives and priorities have nothing in common and  their perspectives are fundamentally different. However, it should be kept in mind that neither side created the problem to which both are reacting, and it should be recognized that both have important roles to play before the course plays itself out.

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189 Responses to Continuing the discussion.

  1. The last paragraph is a fascinating take.

    Throughout history historical and ideological foes with little or nothing in common have put aside their ideological differences to defeat an enemy.

    I’d say these two sides have far more in common than most in history.

  2. TMG says:

    “or at least preserving the seeds of civilization as the fire sweeps through the forest”

    IMO this is a place where we can collaborate just fine. This doesn’t require any kind of altruism, self-sacrifice, or marriage risk. It does require talking, writing, and/or creating artistic works that preserve these seeds. Better yet, those things can plant seeds too.

  3. The comments on that thread went sideways in a hurry.

  4. crowhill says:

    There is an idea that error contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction. (That is in contrast, of course, to the idea that the only thing necessary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.)
    If feminism is truly unsustainable, it will fail, and the relevant question is how society recovers after that.
    But no matter how much feminism has wrapped its claws around society, society does not equal feminism. They are different things.
    Also, the idea that “error contains the seed of its own destruction” is a little too black and white. How much error is required? How long will it take to destroy itself?
    I don’t see feminism leading to the complete fall of society. Rather, I think society will eventually roll back feminism *just enough* to keep itself alive. But not enough to satisfy the traditionalists.

  5. BradA says:

    The challenge with that is that we keep “rolling forward” down the path. Rolling back even a bit is tough, though many would have thought rolling forward would be tough as well.

    The only thing constant is change, as the saying goes.

  6. TMG says:

    “I don’t see feminism leading to the complete fall of society. Rather, I think society will eventually roll back feminism *just enough* to keep itself alive. But not enough to satisfy the traditionalists.”

    I agree with this. What I’d LOVE to see happen is for women to be treated like men. That is, get both the good and the bad of our existence. But we all know that will never happen.

    Female supremacist feminists and female supremacist conservatives will keep society galloping towards the cliff, using male corpses as their fuel, up until they are at the razor’s edge and then they will broker some deal where the female imperative remains triumphant. We can already see this happening, with some female supremacists calling for a return to chivalry and serial monogamy.

  7. mackPUA says:

    My crosspost from Vox’s site …

    The problem with people like Sarahs Daughter & the rest of the man up clueless traditionalists …

    Is the fact even if they reproduce, all their men will always end up dying in wars & dying in coal mines …

    Instead of actually reproducing …

    Traditionalists have always been a group of inbred rednecks

    As all their men usually ended up dead from slaving away for their parasite wives …

    This is why vox is correct MGTOW is a necessary part of a much fairer & SUCCESSFUL strategy for a new way to build civilisation, which actually supports men & their rights

    The traditionalist way of building a civilisation is NUTS

    Sending all the men to die in wars & coal mines

    While the traditionalist women have sex with the postman & the hunky plumber, while the men die on battlefields & coal mines …

    Proves traditional marriage is just another way to filter out beta men, while the women stayathome having sex with the hunky sewage workers & dustbin men …

    Whats even worse men arent even biologically monogamous

    Men are polygamous

    Marriage doesnt even satisfy a mans biological imperative to go forth & multiply & bang tons of hot chicks …

    All marriage does is tie a woman who expects a man to die & slave away in factories & cubicles

    WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM WHICH RESPECTS MENS RIGHTS

    WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM WHICH RESPECTS MENS BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVE

    Fuck the traditionalists & their men dying in coal mines nonsense

    Thats all traditionalists want, millions of men to die for their privileged stay at home women …

    Screw the traditionlists AND the feminists …

  8. TMG says:

    “WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM WHICH RESPECTS MENS RIGHTS WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM WHICH RESPECTS MENS BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVE”

    I agree completely, but this will never happen because the men that want this are outnumbered by other men AND by ALL women. (Yes, all women will defend the female imperative, no matter how egalitarian she may seem.) Most people do not have the ability to comprehend the matrix, let alone function outside of it, and they will kill us and even themselves defending it.

  9. The Continental Op says:

    Crowhill said: There is an idea that error contains within itself the seeds of its own destruction.

    Yeah, every revolution eats its own children.

    It’s why we don’t want a revolution, we want a restoration.

    mackPUA said: Fuck the traditionalists

    Yeah, Dalrock, this is your blog.

  10. Ton says:

    What’s the percentage of men and women that want to roll things back? 1%? Maybe? Not enough whatever the number is. Things are not going to end well..

  11. mackPUA says:

    @The Continental Op

    Dalrocks well aware of the problems with traditionalists, & their all men must marry sluts mantras …

  12. @MackPUA
    “men are naturally polygamous”
    I’m not so sure.
    I see it all as two spirals. A downward spiral (feminism) and an upward spiral.
    In an upward spiral, a woman would be submissive and thankful for her man. She would realize that without him, she’d be starving in a ditch somewhere. This spirals so that out of gratitude, she would put her everything into helping him, following him, finding ways to make him happy. Her submissiveness would make him feel like a king. This spirals further so that he would have greater confidence. He would go out into the world and would feel unconquerable. He would have the confidence to lead with strength. This spiral would make her feel she had the best man in the world. She would look up to him. She would believe that no man was better. He would feel needed and appreciated. He would know that she would follow him anywhere. He would have his fill of submissiveness, and wouldn’t need any more.

    Just a stream of consciousnesses comment by me. It’s not really well thought out, and full of holes, but the basic concept is there.

  13. Novaseeker says:

    Dalrock also very much strongly believes in monogamous marriage, while you think it goes against not only men’s best interests in this political and social context, but against men’s interests in a biological and fundamental sense — and are advocating setting up a system that allows male polygyny as a matter of course. That’s very, very far away from Dalrock’s position.

  14. Outcast Superstar says:

    Why should men even care about what happens to society long term if society just ends up treating the majority of men like it treated Firefighter Fred for “Manning Up”

    http://outcastsuperstar.blogspot.com/2013/05/firefighter-fred-manned-up.html

    Here is a great writing by someone called ball 248 who wrote this on the Don’t Get Married Board back in 2007, it’s lengthy but I think may readers will enjoy the read.

    This is my command – to spread this Declaration to all MGTOW and never surrender it to outsiders for they have no knowledge or wisdom in living well and free forever.

    We, like many other men, live the bachelor lifestyle where we live the way we want without anyone telling us what to do. There is no wife or girlfriend to nag us OR drag us into doing something we don’t want to do. No kids to support. Probably not even a pet (well, maybe a dog or a great car). Let’s face it: we are the growing mainstream demographic of the American/Western culture that has been created because of the women’s liberation movement. When it used to be where the man would work and the woman would stay at home, take care of the kids, and do the domestic chores are no more. Women, however, are now entitled to their liberation and can join the men at the workplace should they choose to do so. But since the women are no longer obligated to provide the child-caring and taking care of the home, men are no longer obligated to marry women or provide for them. Women can do whatever they want according to their deepest desires because right now it’s the start of a new beginning of when women are in charge and the men don’t care.

    But “you men can’t live without us, women” the ladies exclaim. Truth is, “no, we don’t.” We, the great men of this world, are living proof that we don’t have to have a ‘significant other’ in our lives. All the money we make is our decision to spend on whatever we want rather than burn our hard-earned cash on mindless, stupid, trivial items such as shoes, handbags, and clothes we don’t have to have or even NEED. If women want to spend it on those items then go ahead, use your own friggin’ money! Invest in your damn fantasies. Just leave us and our wallets alone! Go! Shoo! We would rather instead spend our money on appreciating assets and items that will give us experiences and pleasures in life. What experiences and pleasures you ask? Well, some of us men like to go smoke cigars, discuss politics and economics, talk about which stocks and bonds that could increase in value, go hunting, go fishing, go scuba diving, learn another language, etc.

    We develop ourselves as human beings to become more knowledgeable about the world like people from other countries do. Go ask any European, “who are the presidents and/or leaders of their governments in neighboring countries” and a majority can answer that question. If we asked an American female, who are the prime minister of Mexico and the president of Canada? The usual response would be “I don’t know.” First of all, Mexico doesn’t have a prime minister. It’s a President and his name is Felipe Calderon (2006) and Canada doesn’t have a president, it’s a prime minister and his name is Stephen Harper (2006). It’s all about knowing outside of the ‘mainstream women pop culture’ that we’re going to be experts in, not about what Tom Cruise had for breakfast, if the colors of the shoes match the jacket, or whether to contemplate buying expensive jewelry.

    We live in this niche of the American/Western system as forever bachelors, single by choice, the truly free of the free. We understand that marriage in the Western World is a losing battle since the divorce rate hovers around 70-80% and not the media propagated figure of 50% (certain states like California don’t publish their divorce rates because they are too embarrassed to publish 80+% rates and also, not taken into account, are the vast numbers of couples who are separated but not formally divorced). Still don’t believe us? Fine, go ask any divorced man if marriage was worth it and he’ll quickly respond with a big, fat “HELL NO!” Why does he say no? That’s because in this society of “me, me, me” and feminism, women are being taught to think for themselves what’s “best for me” and not for the family or group. So as a result, women initiate 90% of the divorces with the courts deciding in her favor which result in men being taken to the cleaners. This type of thinking will also make us men follow the same mentality as women, “it’s all about me!” No ring! No wife! No kids! My life, woman! Not yours! I can do anything I want to do in life! I’m free! Yay!

    Typical stories about divorced men usually go like this (and there aren’t any happy endings):All of his money is gone including future wages. His once confident mentality is gone. His youth, the best days of his life, are also gone in a matter of seconds. He’s been financially raped. He slowly dies alone, desolate, and poor, wondering how did all of this happen when HE didn’t commit any crime?! More than likely, he will say the following: I wish I never got married at the age I did or never at all. He’s just another statistic that the right girl is nothing but a myth.

    Worst of all is still being married to a fat, lazy AW/WW. Such disgustingness to an extent that even the man’s health decreases dramatically. Even those who are not married should be cautious because there are possibilities of being called a rapist even when there was no intercourse involved and wrongly arrested. And if isn’t about that crap in personal affairs, then men have to worry about gender affirmative action and sexual harassment at work. When a man talks dirty to a woman, it’s sexual harassment. When a woman talks dirty to a man, it’s $3.95 per minute. Such double standards… how unfair.

    Yet, no one reports this in the media because it’s biased against men especially in paternity fraud when the guy never met the woman! She just picks a guy out of the 100 guys she screwed trying to play lottery and every time she wins unless the guy objects. Women claim that they need more money, “it’s for the children, it’s for child support.” You honestly believe that you need thousands and thousands of dollars to support a child? Sometimes that figure can go up to be in the millions of dollars in the case of celebrities and rich people. I think women just want all that money to destroy men and justify themselves into investing in shoes, clothes, new cars, jewelry, etc., all in the pursuit of material wealth despite having children to look after. Besides, it’s usually the women who file the divorce papers or even cheat to break up a marriage. Sure, there are some bad men but that’s because young women blindly pursue these bad guys in their youth. What ends up happening is that the woman wizens up (or gets tired of it, aka her clock starts to tick loudly), has some bastards, and looks for a sucker, aka nice guy, to support her and her kids via divorce or wage slave. Sorry, but most men don’t want to get into that part of your life which are your worst days of your life.

    Maybe we dwindled into the divorce part too much and we’ll get into the relationship part instead. We bachelors stay single because we like to live alone and go out to meet with friends and create new experiences. Did you get that part clearly, women? WE LIKE TO LIVE ALONE! We like the fact we can do anything we want and not to have to deal with that girlfriend crap of asking them on a date, being told what to wear, buy this and that (when we don’t need it), deal with these freakish anti-social, fake-friend cliques (god we hate these!), etc.

    Here’s a story for all you women wondering why HE doesn’t call after the first date:

    I went on a date once and I thoroughly analyzed her on what she talked about (herself). My rational mind found that she threw too many red flags to get involved with. What’s a red flag you ask? These are indicators telling me that a relationship with her would never, EVER work out short-term or long-term. I’ll tell you two big red flags I remembered about her: ONE, she talked about her ex-boyfriend and I simply don’t give a crap about that “point in her life,” not to mention how times she banged a bad ass bastard (okay, so she’s a unmarried slut). TWO, I asked her if she wanted to have a beer with me and she said she can’t have alcohol because she’s on anti-depressant medicine. Wait a minute… did she really say that? Oh yeah, she did. Any girl on drugs always rings a big fat bell, indicating that she has major psychotic problems.

    So rather than analyze every girl that comes our way even if she is perfect, we just don’t want to bother with women at all. Yeah, we’re horny guys alright so if we need to get laid, we’ll just go out and get a hooker because she’s cheaper and a professional at it. She’ll also think that we’re sex gods and many women want us. Oh, and by the way, she’s also cheaper than a girlfriend or wife. How’s that so? Take a look at this equation:

    Take all the money you’ve spent on a girlfriend/wife divided by the times she’s given you an orgasm will always be higher than the amount it takes to spend the night with a prostitute. For example, that date story mentioned earlier, how much did he spent his hard earned cash on transportation, dinner, and entertainment for that 2-3 hours? $150. Did he get laid? Nope. Got the Friend Zone treatment. And how much does an hour with a smokin’ hot hooker cost? $100. Seriously, it comes down to this question, “how much brain damage are you willing to accept for a little coochie?” or would you rather get laid?

    We have to say that we fully believe in prostitution because it’s like a romantic love story but without the BS. We get to spend an hour (or the whole night should we choose) rather than spend 24/7 with a fat-ass, un-loyal, complaining PMS girlfriend/wife. Still have problems with prostitution, women? Just know it’s your liberation at work and many women take this freedom sexually, for a price. Besides, we like to wake up each morning feeling a new woman.

    And if anyone wants to mock prostitution, just compare the so-called ‘numbers game’ of how many people you’ve slept with. Chances are the guy who bought prostitutes slept with more women than the insulters:

    I remember talking with a former jock from my alma mater who made fun of me for ‘not getting any, lately’ (3 months, big whoop). He boasted how he had 2 ex-girlfriends and one girlfriend right now that he’s screwing. Never-mind, that the current girlfriend is fat and old, but it was the look at his face that made my day when I told him confidently that “I think I had over 20 girls in 3 years or was it just last year and that is no BS.” Years after graduating high school… and to think how funny it is that we switched statuses, roles – that I’m now an alpha male and he’s… nothing. What’s more impressive? A guy who slept with 100+ smoking-hot prostitutes or a guy with a sub-par girlfriend?

    “But not all women are like that! Women are loving, loyal, and caring, too!” women want to exclaim. True, it’s very true that some women are in fact amazing but they are, how should we say it, ‘in very, very short supply.’ What can we say? The majority of us want a younger, loyal, pleasant stay-at-home wife who cooks, cleans, raises kids, is a whore in the bedroom, is flexible and won’t change the husband in anyway. Yes, yes, we know that some men may have a taste for other types but what we described is the ideal girl most guys would fully appreciate to have. Sure there are a lot of women who would call us a caveman or barbarian expecting a homemaker and denying her chance at making the money with a career but let’s face it – that’s why we’re not getting married at all. It’s our way or no way!!! We’re going to do the reversal on women themselves by, “expecting to have everything.” She has to be the PERFECT soul mate in every way otherwise marriage will never be considered.

    Sure, we’re human like anyone else and it’s very possible that some of us have fallen in love before like this guy here…Actually, one perfect woman did exist in my life, in high school. She was beautiful, had the best looks, gorgeous long hair, great personality to go with, innocent, and best of all – she knew me! Unfortunately, she passed away – she’s now a thug gangster girl who is now ugly, does drugs, has two bastards by five men, and is actively looking for a sucker to support her and the kids. She’s alive but in my mind, she passed away long ago that I’m still holding out for her, in being loyal to her, in respect to her youth. That’s what I tell all women that I had a woman but she passed away and in the end she’ll be waiting…. that’s when I laugh secretly.

    Like we said, the term, “soul mate” doesn’t exist because it’s really a work of fiction. We really don’t think the most perfect woman in the world exists because in several years later she’s no longer the “fairest of them all.” Women age quickly, that is a fact of life. Women are like cars: every several years you have to replace them with a new one otherwise you’ll spend a lot of time, energy, and money on maintaining one. Bah, screw that. We’d rather replace the aging BMW with a new one with leather seats, that new car smell, better gas mileage, and of course – 0 miles on the odometer! Whoo hoo! Yeah, a lot of us will stay a bachelor our whole lives listening to the cliché shame and blame tactics of “you’re not manly,” “you probably can’t satisfy a woman,” “you must be single, sad, and lonely,” etc. I can already hear myself laughing the entire time listening to all the insults as I cruise away in my brand, spanking-new Lexus.

    Just listen to all that dribble out there as we do our own thing such as vacationing at tropical white-sand beaches and possibly looking for a great young foreign girl to have a great time with:

    “You’re not a man unless you have a woman!”

    “Aren’t you going to settle down soon?”

    “You must have a small dick that can’t please women!”

    Look at the pathetic insults. They’re all the same.

    FINE!

    Just this once, we’ll imagine that one insane man out of us will consider marrying a woman:

    Yeah, I’d love to get married to a great girl. Here are my expectations in 4 lines or less…She’ll always loyally support me while I quit my job and play videogames all day and night and I STILL get laid at night when she comes home from work! If she doesn’t “give it up” and/or becomes fat and ugly, then I’m entitled to go get a hooker then. Also, in the event of a divorce, I get half of her assets and paid alimony for life.

    So there! What girl would want “such a lazy-ass man like that?” Chivalry and supporting a woman is dead. Go support your own ass, woman. We’re going our own way! Oh, and by the way, some of us have already had over 100+ women and in today’s gangster/thug men’s culture that should make us a MAN! Why settle? Why concentrate all energy into one woman when you can “spread the wealth?” Haha!

    Oh yes, in the future, should we ever reverse ourselves on the position of marriage, we’ll go out of the country to find the most pleasant, young foreign woman in the universe. If we don’t find her, then who cares… God put everything that a human being needs onto this planet – great food, great music, great women. He just did not put it all in one country.

    And yeah, we did say foreign woman (it’s called out-sourcing) because the Western World’s system is becoming highly unstable by the day. Despite what you might think of any Western World country being the safest country in the world – it is not, especially in the US! The US has the highest crime rate in the world along with teenage pregnancy, m*rders, obesity, brain/mind problems, etc. The only good thing about the US is making money and what’s what us bachelors are going to do, exploit the system by making our cash and get out to another country for ‘the ultimate fun in the sun.’ We’re pretty sure some of us men will be retired by age 40 and work all day and night like some…

    Those “some” happen to be everyone else, who are chasing that rat race dream of a job, career, wife, kids, big house, dog – well, screw all that! We’re going to make my own way and give the finger to all those who chose the rat race, the dying institution of marriage, and get away from all those gold digging, leach women. The middle finger is also for all the wage slave men who blindly married (chained) themselves to a chain and ball.

    Yeah, it would have been neat to be a husband and father to kids of our own, but the thought of dealing with a nagging woman and hopeless, screwed up kids are totally unacceptable. Since technology and science get better all the time, we would rather choose cloning ourselves over the alternative any day. So to all the women in the science field who actually do real lab work, making cloning a better possibility every day, total thanks! Haha!

    As bachelors, our goals are simply making money, developing ourselves as better human beings, and building a brotherhood that will last for ages. Having a significant other is totally over-rated and success with a woman does not mean success in life. We all live alone and will die alone even if we did get married (women live longer than men on average). We just believe it is just far better for us to have each other as friends, brothers in arms where we can simply be men and not just become some single feeble-minded amoebas looking like we’re rejects of society. Wrong! We reject society because society doesn’t fit us in its screwed up system. Instead, we’re out to silently exploit the system that we fully understand on how it works and utilize it for our gains. We will become rich in mind, soul, and also our pockets! We’ll live the lifestyle that everyone would want to live except we have fewer problems because we made the right choices at a younger age and understood where it would take us to, paradise.

    We now belong to a special niche where many others may have been forced into against their will. But those who join this special section of society do it by their own free will. We are talking about the Ghost Nation, groups of people that have fallen off of society’s radar screen and no one has any idea that these people exist. Rather than intermingle with the rest of society by interacting with regular people by having a regular job, going to clubs/bars/parties, attend big-time social events, etc. we drift in and out without being noticed.

    Being a Ghost is great for some because it means no interaction with women, period. No BS or headaches for this guy:

    I remember some neighbors were gossiping about their friend, a ‘hot girl,’ and how she could never find herself a decent man. Want to know why I didn’t go for her? Because every week I could hear through the thin walls of my apartment that she brought home a new thug to screw. I remember on the day I moved out she was pissed off because ‘I didn’t go out of my way to help her’ like all men did after all that time I lived right next door. HAHA! Guess what, girlie? I don’t care. I am a not a Captain-Save-A-Ho! I’m a Ghost. And no one recognizes Ghosts and those who freely became one, like it that way. And women like her complain, “where did the good men go to?” That’s easy. We CHOSE to disappear. You can screw all the guys you want but you don’t have my body (or wallet). Our bodies, our decisions!

    We have good reasons why this world is going to hell and we as men are the best ones in position to save our own hides because we don’t need ‘special attention.’ We actually hate attention and thank god that people think we’re just regular Joe-Schmos on the street especially the women who think of us as “nothing.” The few women who do get to know us, wow, they’re going to want us especially when they turn 30. But their fate is the same as all others: to live unhappily single and eventually die alone. That’s RIGHT – you wanted a career so you have it now, even if it is just a minimal wage job at the grocery store or working long hours at the office. And, HELL NO! We are not bailing you out either because even if you’re beautiful, we’ve tuned out all women!

    What can we say? We’ve learned our lessons about women throughout my life like this guy:

    I’m a former nice guy who turned into an Alpha Male then turned ghost. “They” don’t see me. If women ever found out what I do and how I carry myself – I’d be swarmed by tons of them. But I don’t EVER want that! I mean I travel to see new places, I workout so I’m built and fit, I have money, I’m positive in my thinking, and I can analyze and philosophize about life. This thinking has been my greatest asset and I utilize it into my own life which thus becomes my attitude and eventually my altitude, flying high above all others who are trapped in the matriarchy as wage slaves. I do not pity them for they made that choice nor I do try to produce a solution for them because a ‘massive one-size fits all cure’ would not fit the millions, billions… many will not take the cure willingly until it is too late. Besides, why conjure a cure for their happiness when they cannot understand our way of life? Better hop on the train or get lost.

    Let’s face it. Feminism, high divorce rates, excessive consumerism, climate change (debatable), and working women are here to stay and won’t stop. This is called change. Change is constant and only those who evolve with change will succeed the greatest. So, embrace this change. Dare yourself to be different. In old Roman and Greek times, bachelor men would be taxed for not getting married, but you, however, are able to have your dreams and desires to be fulfilled rather than live a mass-produced, cookie-cutter boring life. You Can Be Different! The Men wanting “Something for Nothing” and who are unwilling to make significant sacrifices to achieve their dreams always end up failing. Life is not all about what you can BUY next in this consumerism culture. It is whether you are WILLING to do the right thing in life and make change for yourself! Society will try to define what it means to be masculine, but true masculinity means to face your fears and do it anyway. Go beyond the boundaries of what you know! Once you’ve felt this fear and want to succeed in anything, anywhere, and every-time, then you have reached true masculinity: you’re a winner and no one can take that away from you. Not even women.

    Sometimes we put it off, thinking there will be plenty of time later in life. So whether it’s your dream to fly planes, go bungee jumping, go sky diving, climb Mount Everest, backpacking Europe – it’s all in your hands. Just think what the typical AW/WW does, “I work (or go to school), I like to party, drink, go clubbing, chill with friends.” They have few real interests. Just think HOW MUCH YOUR LIFE CAN BE! The ever-lasting glory of accomplishment…. so get off that damn couch! Does TV advance your goals? Do you really want to come home just to watch “other people work?” Do you really want to look back on your life staring at some screen most of the time?

    The best compliment one guy received (despite an AW) was this:I was eating dinner with a friend and his two co-workers. We ate dinner, talked about this and that, and the female co-worker out-of-the-blue told me, “You really look like a man, act like a man, and talk like a MAN which is rare in today’s world. Do you have a girlfriend?” I laughed and secretly smiled knowing I’m on my way to achieving my dreams where women will become distractions trying to get attention.

    Women are a gift in our lives but many throw their prizes away without knowing how grateful they are. Usually, when time passes by, women realize that they will never be movie stars and are no longer as desirable. Only then when they see us living well is the greatest revenge. Hahahahaha. It’s like what we’d said before – OUR WAY or NO WAY!

    To fellow brothers in arms! To those who are flying high in the sky! We live the life! YOU CAN!

    Cheers to being single!

  15. Lyn87 says:

    The Sexual Revolution was/is a two-way street. There can be no society where any significant number of men DO act like cads but where there is not a correspondingly large number of women who DO NOT act like whores – unless the PUA guys are screwing each other instead of women (but judging by the effete mannerisms and fuzzy hats I cannot rule that out).

    If a society exists where men may – without serious repercussions – go out and “bang tons of hot chicks” (seriously: are we 12 here?) then it is a mathematical certainty that a large number of women will chase their hypergamous hamsters right off the cliff and take society with it.

    There can be no meaningful alliance between the two groups in the long term. There can only be occasional alignments of transient interest because the two groups want incompatible things which can only be achieved using incompatible means.

    However, Advanced Civilization = Monogamy-based Patriarchy. Nothing else works in the long run. Monogamy-based Patriarchy requires that men not spend all their time looking to “bang tons of hot chicks” and do productive things instead (which includes somebody getting the coal out of the ground). Sorry, but that’s just how it is. We can argue about whether it’s worth it, but we should not pretend that a Cad / Slut Society can remain both wealthy and unconquered for very long.

  16. mackPUA says:

    I’m not trying to promote polygamy exclusively, nor am I against monogamy

    I want balance

    Men have a right to choose their mating strategy

    Do you really want a restoration, where men die in the millions, while women sit at home doing nothing to help the men?

    Seriously arent the centuries of feminism where women whine & destroy mens rights enough?

    I want a system where men have rights to their children AND are able to bang hot tight chicks, in their 50’s & 60’s, just as nature intended men to do, if they want to

    Men have a right to choose their mating strategy

    If men want monogamy give it to them

    If men want to pay for kids with multiple women, give it to them

    Solomon the wisest man in the bible had over 50 wives & about 200 children …

    How can you equate monogamy, with morals & ethics, when all it does deprive men of their rights & children?

    How many married men even get a chance to hold their own children, after a hard day of work?

    A man able to follow his biology, & all of society benefits …

    A man prevented from following his biology, & millions of men die in wars & coal mines trying to protect priviliged women sitting on their cheating, screwing the milkman & postman, asses …

    The more freedom men have, the more society benefits

    The more freedom women have & you have millions of children dying in abortions, mass human & civil rights violations, & millions of women turning into sluts & whores

    We need a system which respects & honours mens rights

    We need a system which gives men the right to follow their biological imperative

    We HAVE TO BREAK the cycle of women destroying the moral & social fabric of our societies

    The privilege of giving women monogamy is DANGEROUS & unsustainable

    PRECISELY because monogamy is paid for by the blood of men …

    If you give women monogamy, women will ALWAYS follow their biological imperative to their logical conclusion

    Feminism & mass murder of children & millions of men killing each to other grant women the privilege of monogamy

    It has to stop

    Give men a choice to choose monogamy, & give them the right to their children

    You cannot build a sustainable society, IF YOU DONT give men the right to follow their biological imperative

  17. 8oxer says:

    Dear Third Millennium:

    Throughout history historical and ideological foes with little or nothing in common have put aside their ideological differences to defeat an enemy.

    It’s actually much easier for groups which are further opposed to work together in real-world scenarios. Think Mao’s People’s Army and Chiang Kai-Shek’s Nationalists coming together to defeat the Japanese invasion in WWII.

    Groups which are ideologically close, ironically, have more suspicion of one another, partly due to the fact that the spokesmen/leaders worry about dilution of the message or flock stealing by the rival group. It’s not like the communist and nationalist soldiers were in much danger of swaying each other politically, so there was relatively little friction when pushing out the common enemy..

    All I know, as a MGTOW type, is that I support all my brothers, including those I disagree with. My job is not to convert anyone to my side of whatever the divide might be, but only to enjoy life and to do what’s reasonable to help my brothers achieve the same.

    Regards, Boxer

  18. Ivar says:

    There is no ‘restoring’ civilization. The past may provide useful examples and cautionary tales, but it’s gone. We must go through this time and out the other side, push the ‘reset’ button and start over. The faster and more completely modern ‘civilization fails, the better.

    My steak and wine are ready, and I intend to enjoy my dinner – without the presence of some banal, yapping bitch.

  19. Ton says:

    Look the only way women will be good wives is if there is a credible threat of force, divorce laws that favor men and sexual competition. Which is why polygamy benefits married men.

    LFM women are not capable of gratitude which explains a large part of why marriage is in the downward spiral. Sure the law helps but really the law just sets a woman’s base nature free

  20. Anonymous Reader says:

    The comments in that thread at alphagame are for the most part just comedy gold, however there are a few worthy of note. In particular, Vox’s rebuke of Sarah’s Daughter for her contempt towards the MGTOW’s is worth reading, and can be summed up simply: AWALT.

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2013/05/nihilists-vs-civilizationists.html?showComment=1369401757739#c645292470178462602

    There are some simple facts about women that “traditionalists” or “civilizationists” or whatever they wish to call themselves just don’t really want to face up to. IMO that is because by and large, the traditionalism of 2013 is the liberalism of 1973.

  21. Anon says:

    The “camp” I am in is “the fiddlers are probably right, but I pray they are wrong.” Does that make a coward? I wonder but I don’t know what else to do.

  22. BradA says:

    You are full of it MackPUA. SD and her husband may have their flaws, but I have never heard them advocate for “man up and marry those sluts” in their posts. The posts are on taking the effort to find the women who have not done that. It may not be achievable for everyone, but no one will reach the family structure needed to continue civilization on if they never try anything.

    You are free to disagree, but mislabeling denigrates your case. Though that may be because you have to raise the straw man to have something to rail against.

  23. Ton says:

    I have to agree with MackPU, SD and her husband have become hostile to any man who refuses to marry. I no longer read.their blog, others have commented on it as well.

  24. @BradA – I have never heard a pastor address marriage / remarriage in context of 1 Cor 7 & 1 Tim and the teachings of Yahshua and the OT or virginity or living together (evangelical churches have failed miserably on this – this cannot be denied).
    When have you heard of a congregation kicking out members who a known living / sleeping together per 1 Cor 1 5:9-13 or saying frivdivorce allows for divorce? The intentional twisting the scriptures teaching “widows = divorced” ala Mark Driscoll ?
    Btw, the scriptures does say remarriage in the case of adultery does allow but it is very very limited as Yahshua mentioned in Matt 19
    “But He told them, Not everyone can accept this saying, but only those it has been given to.”
    While this may not be popular with Western Evangelical beliefs/thinking – if the scriptures and words of Yahshua are applied correctly it places one in position to take marriage very serious life long commitment instead of a haphazard decision or glandular urge and thus reducing divorce and the associated damage caused by it.
    ~Shalom

  25. thidwick says:

    Alpha Game’s comments section is becoming unreadable because of the women who, while ostensibly Red Pill, in reality sound like Jezebel feminists. The shaming is out of control and needs to come to an end.

  26. Johnycomelately says:

    Joseph Tainter’s ‘The Collapse of Complex Societies’ is a good book on this topic.

    MGTOW may simply be a product of diminishing returns, since wealth is capped by natural resources, the growth of size and complexity of Western societies may have reached its upper limits.

    Given that only 4% of men earn over 100k, how much effort must an average man expend to sustain a traditional white picket fence lifestyle?

    I sincerely doubt many MGTOW are forgoing earnings over 100k to make a point.

    “Exponential growth is an imperative. Any species will expand its numbers if it possibly can for as long as it can.”
    http://www.culturechange.org/cms/content/view/700/1/

    Trads are following the ‘growth imperative’ while MGTOW are examples of that imperative reaching its limits.

  27. Sharrukin says:

    Johnycomelately says:

    Given that only 4% of men earn over 100k, how much effort must an average man expend to sustain a traditional white picket fence lifestyle?

    I sincerely doubt many MGTOW are forgoing earnings over 100k to make a point.

    They aren’t doing it to make a point, no. They are doing it because they see little point in going to that extra effort to acquire the traditional white picket fence lifestyle. They look at their chances and see that they aren’t likely to get a wife worth having, nor are they likely to keep her or the white picket fence. So why expend a significant effort to get something of such little value that can be swept away on a whim?

  28. Ton says:

    Going my own way has not led to a reduction in income

  29. greyghost says:

    “men are naturally polygamous”
    I’m not, No fucking way. Could you imagine 2 or 3 Mrs. greghost,, that would be crazy on my part.

  30. They Call Me Tom says:

    If sluts were a rarity, I can see how the argument could be made that men should marry them… afterall, if few women are sluts, that means most women have peers who aren’t sluts and will keep them from going off the rails.

    But sluts are not a rarity, so men are left to seek out the women who are of such quality that they aren’t going to be undermined by their slut peers. A marriage with a non-loving non-loyal wife isn’t worth the effort or the risk.

  31. JG says:

    Nicely stated, Outcast Superstar.

  32. Orthodox says:

    I don’t think hardcore traditionalists really care whether you marry or not in this present age. But to build a society means to live by its rules today, not in some future when the work was done by others, and that means living that life today, enforcing that society’s rules today. So there is going to be some natural friction when people interact online. Traditionalists saying “man up” are talking about something completely different than moderns, but it can sound the same because the moderns have stolen the language. They take words and change their meanings or remove the meaning all together, repeating empty platitudes bereft of truth. Many people who consider themselves traditionalist (feminist conservatives) merely repeat the empty words.

  33. Elspeth says:

    “men are naturally polygamous”
    I’m not, No fucking way. Could you imagine 2 or 3 Mrs. greghost,, that would be crazy on my part.

    My husband also says that one woman is more than enough to deal with.

  34. Opus says:

    I feel a rule coming on: The number of Cads in society is going to be in proportion to the number of sluts – for there must be a limit to the number of women even a top-cad can service. If there are few sluts there cannot be any but a few Cads. In fact, there aren’t that many sluts: true sluts are both distinctive and rather odd, but what we do get a lot of is serial monogamy from women, which is why we get a lot of serial monogamy from men (content follows form). Women, not men, are the limiting factor in sex and thus in society, and thus without female permission (i.e. slutdom) there will be few men able to indulge as Cads. It is women, who, by failing to settle with one guy, teach men that, in the endless game of Prisoner’s Dilemma that it is better to play around – a circumstance where two birds in the bush really is a better option than one bird in the hand – tomorrow truly is another day. What so many women fail to recognise is that eventually (in their thirties and beyond) when their looks go and their waists thicken, that men will either pass them over in favour of younger hotter women (if they can) or alternatively shrug their shoulders and decide to pass up on such less than desirable women – this is where the marriage strike come from; consider all the women who come here with their endless rationalisations. Playing with Hamsters should be outlawed as a cruel sport (were it not so much fun).

    Consider The Spice Girls: out of the five, one married an uber-Alpha male (four children) and the remainder – missing their chance – are aging freaks, unable now to find a suitable (above their station) male – though that Baby Spice is still kind of cute. Gerry Halliwell is the best looking of course, but she was not bright enough to cash in her chips (being too full of her own attractiveness) – the other two (Sporty and the appropriately named Scary) are paper-bag jobs. This should be an object lesson to all the girls out there, but is it?

  35. @Brad
    You are full of it MackPUA. SD and her husband may have their flaws, but I have never heard them advocate for “man up and marry those sluts” in their posts. The posts are on taking the effort to find the women who have not done that.

    Back atcha Brad. I find myself defending Macks point on this. They (SD/RLB) do not use the words “man up and marry the sluts”, they say “man up and marry period”. They tell men who describe having sought wives for years that they are in sin for failing and would that they just man up MORE they would find a wife, any wife-because they do not qualify anything in that argument. “Marry the sluts” is necessarily included in their pile driving approach.

    Frankly I don’t think they give a rats rear about the end result of people marrying and the whole thing is an AMOG farce. Nevertheless….

    Here is another example of their being in the flawed-version-of-tradcon group

    It is not possible for pro-civilization minded women to submit to men whose message and morality is so fundamentally different than their husband’s and Christianity.

    You see that? Its a “but” that women can use when faced with submission as imperative. She similarly uses 1 Peter 3:7 as a conditional statement whereby IF the man is “living in an understanding way” she will submit, actually she stated it as why she submits to her husband.

    These are the plain and obvious flaws in churchian tradcon beliefs writ large.

    Belittling men whose stories they know near nothing of, in the name of shaming the cads and the lazy is ridiculous.

    I do agree with her when she said it is problematic that anytime a man in the sphere agrees with a woman he is labeled white knight. The thing is, she writes with male frame, she takes on a sort of female alpha male persona MOST of the time in topics that are about MGTOW. So, yes, I do see men who align with that as white knights or worse simply because it is imappropriate.

    I rambled and cast all over in this post

  36. The comments over there devolved to the shaming of MGTOW yet again. SD and RLB drag that pile of fighting snakes around everywhere they go. No surprise then that the topic becomes snake fighting, and that more snakes join the fight.

  37. earl says:

    “men are naturally polygamous”

    No, men are naturally promiscuous…I doubt most men want to marry more than one wife at a time.

  38. Ton says:

    sd and rlb have turned anti masculine. They attempt to couch it in Biblical terms and worry about Western civilization but their insincerity oozes through. They are worried about their daughters, don’t want them pumped and dumped by cads, don’t want them married to an icky beta and are trying to ensure there is a ready supply of beta-ish alphas/ alpha-ish betas ( or fired ice) for their daughters to marry

    Which I understand to a certain degree deing a father with a daughter.

    Not sure if they have a son, I think they do. If that is so, they have sold him out for the sakes of their daughters. Which I don’t understand, being a father with a son

  39. Johnycomelately says:

    Joseph Tainter’s ‘The Collapse of Complex Societies is an economic mirror to Glubbs’s decline of morality in the 7 steps in the life of empires.

    Maybe the increase in promiscuity is simply a case of the maladaption of innate drives through circumstances being driven by macro forces to sustain complexity.

    Higher complexity implies increased specialization, increased education, more females working, longer hours, lower relative incomes, lower fecundity and less single income families. But the innate primal drives remain the same and are manifest in ways that suit circumstances but may not necessarily be moral.

    So MGTOW is simply a rational response by the primal masculine drive not to invest in infescund females created by macro forces.

  40. greyghost says:

    The reason I think the traditional types are so angered by MGTOW types is the traditionalist don’t have a clue as to why the “tradition” is there in the first place. Until the So Con , Churchian , traditionalist etc. become the builders of tradition they will never understand MGTOW and the PUA. When the two camps realize they are on the same team feminism and the feminine imperative are in trouble.
    BTW I will never want the patriarchy marriage 1.0 style. Them days are lost forever. Women will get full equality as advertised. Damn straight from getting drafted same physical requirements to laws written that aren’t based on the opinion of the victim. If you don’t want to be treated like a man find a husband bitch and give him a reason to like having you around otherwise get your ass to work.

  41. Elspeth says:

    If that was a guy charged with statutory rape, you’d hear crickets chirping.

  42. Matthew King says:

    A movement cannot obsess about differences among its elements, especially immaterial differences. Politics 101: focus on what unites. Win first, then sort out divisions.

    Roissy and the “Poolsiders” are nihilists for lack of a serious philosophy of life. This is a function of maleducation more than it is anything intrinsic to their modus vivendi. They borrow from the modern culture, and when they get “deep,” their thinking is predicated on Scientific American articles about evolutionary psychology. They are not driven by anti-civilization, though in their undiscipline they take advantage of cultural decay. They are simply working with the materials given them by a fundamentally dysfunctional society.

    It is therefore vital for Christians to represent themselves during this incipient renaissance of manliness. Because we 1) do not contradict the main thesis, 2) have something the nihilists lack, and 3) in fact represent the only lasting solution. But too many Christians only see Roissy’s surface theatrics and flinch away from their apparent “evil.” Teaching men to be men again is not evil, even if his philosophical inconsistencies stray beyond the realm of moral propriety. Morals in war are understood differently than morals in peace, and we are engaged in existential war.

    Anyway, If you look closely you will understand that with age and maturity come a greater spiritual awareness. You don’t have to worry about these guys contributing to the cultural decay for very long — they all succumb to the spiritual ennui of success. They are searching for God in a thousand women’s reproductive systems. If you trace the moderation of Roissy’s tone over the last couple years — fewer citations of “biomechanics is God,” some positive praise for the religious, fewer instances of mocking the sacred — you will realize that such little-boy antics are by definition short-lived.

    Don’t pick a fight with the natural leaders of your cause. Rather build them up into righteousness, direct their talents toward the only goal that matters. The greatest heretics make for the greatest converts.

    Matt

  43. Tam the Bam says:

    Rousing stuff Outcast, but I’m seriously going to have to diddle about figuring how to force the resolution in xrandr again. That was ten foot six inches long, on my screen. I’ve had shorter cars.

  44. greyghost says:

    Matt
    What is so Nihilistic about Roissy or any other PUA. The nihilist are the churchians speaking of God and the scriptures as long as it is not too uncomfortable. The church as sold it’s soul to the feminine imperative the same as Adam listening to his wife instead of God. MGTOW,PUA ,MRA’s and peter pans are the men that are doing what the church failed to do. Those men and the manosphere itself is founded by men that have married and have produced children. These are the beta men that are the foundation of western civilization. Against their will they have been forced on to the battle field. War is horrific and scary as it should be. Love those men respect those men for they are the ones building the foundations for tradition. You don’t have to be a PUA but you do need to be apart of the building of tradition. Your cross to bear will be you don’t get to have this smug innocent righteous good churchian feeling of superiority. Have faith , god will sooth.
    Both parties have to respect and understand the other or we will never save the west from collapse. And this “save” is not maintaining the illusion we have now but true full knowledge of what happened a civilization wide red pill. Give up the feminine imperative and have faith in the sword. love your warriors

  45. Tam the Bam says:

    Sharrukin; exactamondo.
    “They aren’t doing it to make a point, no. They are doing it because they see little point in going to that extra effort to acquire the traditional white picket fence lifestyle. They look at their chances and see that they aren’t likely to get a wife worth having, nor are they likely to keep her or the white picket fence.”
    It’s as mad as saving up in order to have your legs amputated (although I do believe that’s a minority option now, in fashionable circles, just like marriage).

  46. greyghost says:

    Elspeth
    Florida has a problem with the pussy pass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdxu23EG-a4
    I also believe what the mother wants (feminine imperative) trumps ‘Female” when the ideology runs into itself.

  47. Matthew King says:

    Grey Ghost asked, “What is so Nihilistic about Roissy or any other PUA?”

    [M]ost people will indulge to avoid grappling with the cold, black void of an uncaring evolutionary replication machine.

    If you are a man, know that the moment you were born the universe had it in for you. The deck was stacked. The deal was raw. Your expendability was programmed into your wet code before you gained self-awareness. The worldscape of genes can rebuild with the seed of one man should catastrophe strike, but each woman lost is a lethal blow to the repopulation project.

    In sober moments free of maudlin introspection, you will understand there is no other game to play save this one.

    — Roissy, “The Fundamental Premise”
    March 21, 2013

    Any other misconceptions I can clear up for you? Do you know what nihilism means?

    Matt

  48. Tam the Bam says:

    greyghost :- ooh, trainwreck! Feminism starts to eat its own tail [grabs popcorn, and prime place on couch]
    (Not commenting about the luckless boy. Dad not around then? Thanks Mom. He’s only eleven, and doesn’t seem to have been taught how to hurt people. Properly. Soon come, if he’s smart and wants any kind of a life under the current social regime. Yes I know even glancing in a “fully-empowered” woman’s general direction can put you in chokey, but the alternative is worse. Overpowered by near-fully-grown teenage pedophiles and child pornographers there, though. And nobody in LawEnf. has a problem with this?)

  49. greyghost says:

    Looks good to me. More men need that to go with their bible. He spoke the truth and has learned to live with it. My kind of guy. When he is your kind of guy, we with him can get some work done on changing what the truth is in this world. (no man should be able to ever speak those words truthfully, in todays world it is reality) What is and what ought are two different things.
    His nihilism as defined is the truth he is correct. The foundation you are using as a basis of morality does not exist in this world. he understands that and says so. Who is the nihilist? This question is where atheism and churchianship come from. Did not abandon god do have faith and engage the evil in this world. Just because it is not nice pleasant or admired and respected by man doesn’t mean it is not doing works for the lord. Love our warriors.

  50. greenlander says:

    @empathologism

    The comments over there devolved to the shaming of MGTOW yet again. SD and RLB drag that pile of fighting snakes around everywhere they go. No surprise then that the topic becomes snake fighting, and that more snakes join the fight.

    Yes, you’re right. Vox’s original post was good, and the first set of responses were excellent. But it went downhill quickly from there.

    One of the reasons I like this particular blog is that there seems to be an element of civility and thoughtfulness here that doesn’t exist in a lot of portions of the manosphere.

  51. greyghost says:

    Greenlander
    How is life in Russia. I remember when deployed to Thailand how nice life would be there. But things are different when you most earn your keep in the local economy.

  52. Ton says:

    I’m not sure why I am Nihilistic for not playing in a rigged game. I played the game, lost 168k in salary, a home, regular access to my children a truck a motorcycle and opportunity cost as I had to spend time and resources supplementing my stolen income. Not putting myself back into that position, advocating men not subject themselves to the risk an adopting a new strategy for living seems rational given my experiences

    I think it boils down to this, to me, men have value in and of themselves. To the others men are only tools to support a system. Sense men are of no value as a free agent to those people, he is discredited for not being a useful tool.

  53. greyghost says:

    Ton
    I don’t think you are a nihilist at all. When the churchians become Christians and give up the feminine imperative we can change the west. Right now we still are discovering new lies and finding out what happened to the christian church. They have divorced themselves from reality following the feminine imperative.
    What Dalrock is doing is breaking the safe divide and shining a light on the elephant. very interested in how this goes. Would also be interesting to know how many people other than commenters are seeing what is written here. Vox’s article even though it was derailed was seen and the derailers were also seen for who they are. SD has been exposed for who she is etc. All good things.

  54. greenlander says:

    How is life in Russia. I remember when deployed to Thailand how nice life would be there. But things are different when you most earn your keep in the local economy.

    Dude, you have no idea how cold the winter is here. Unless you’ve spent a winter in Alaska, you have no idea. There is nothing in the lower 49 states to match what I lived through.

    But then again, there are people in parts of Russia like Yakutsk that laugh at us “southern” Russians who can’t stand a “real” winter.

    In any event, life is good now that it’s spring. I draw my income from the western world doing consulting. I’ve met two other Americans here over the course of an entire year, and a handful of other westerners. They’re all English teachers. I’m glad I don’t work for their salary: they make like $15 an hour if they’re lucky lol.

    I busted my ass to get the skill set required to be an expert in my field. I work where I want, I choose my hours, I choose my projects. It was a bitch to get here. Now I write the rules in my life. I’ve never been happier.

    Living here is the closest thing I’ll ever experience to being a celebrity. Last night I had agreed to meet with my Russian friends at this popular bar. The bouncer didn’t want to let me in until he figured out that I was an American. And then he was like, “oh yes, come on in!”

    But I didn’t find my Russian friends there: they were late. And the bouncer didn’t want to let them in either. So they sent me an SMS. I went to find them at the front, and when the bouncer realized that they were with THE AMERICAN they let my Russian friends in too. Then I realized the only way this whole crowd got into this popular bar on a Friday night was because of me.

    And the women are simply a pleasure. It’s like going back forty years in time. Sure, they are women: they have the same feminine imperative that they have in the west. They can be as bitchy and shallow as their western sisters. But I don’t have to plow through 20+ years being steeped in feminist nonsense to deal with them.

    Undoubtedly, speaking fluent Russian as a second language opens lots of doors for me. This path ain’t no summer camp and I wouldn’t recommend it for everyone. Living in Russia can be crazy. Sometimes I wake up and think, “oh, what crazy-ass thing am I going to experience today?” But for me it was the right choice, and I love it here.

  55. Ton:

    As a father of 2 boys and 2 girls I understand full well the urge to protect the daughter and see her into the care of a good man.

    I would not be happy if I went with my son to meet the father of his girlfriend and found instead a parody of the parody that was Major Payne

  56. BradA says:

    @shalom,

    That is one of the reasons I am having such a challenge finding the proper church.

    @emp,

    Your logic left a lot of holes there. The message of “we need marriages to continue civilization” is a very different one.

    I see a lot of men arguing on AG. SD has had a few comments, but very little.

    It mostly seems that those opposing civilizationists (as VD puts it) can’t stand anyone who deviates from their line. Kind of ironic that that seems the dominant thread here too, given Dalrock’s core intentions.

  57. They Call Me Tom says:

    @Ton: For all the hue and cry about bullying over the last year (ok actually hue and cry over bullying ‘protected’ groups), I’m a much more confident individual because of having to deal with it, having to eventually turn the tables, and coming out the other side of bullying. I know it doesn’t always work out the same, but for me growing up, I realized my self value when I was faced with either being of no value (when I was the target of bullying) or valuing myself without peer affirmation (fighting back). When the latter happened, I suddenly had the peer approval (tell us how you beat up the bully!), but I wasn’t dependent on it for self affirmation anymore.

    In some way, I think that’s what’s happened to the men I’ve known who’ve been divorced. They didn’t get bullied until they were married, divorced, and came out the other side… but nonetheless those that make it through visiting the lowest point of self worth… have a lot more self worth afterwards.

  58. Sharrukin says:

    BradA says:

    It mostly seems that those opposing civilizationists (as VD puts it) can’t stand anyone who deviates from their line. Kind of ironic that that seems the dominant thread here too, given Dalrock’s core intentions.

    You are calling on them to marry and denigrating them if they balk at doing so. It seems that you are the one who is unwilling to allow any deviation. They are saying that the results of marriage are clearly seen in broken homes, destructive divorces, alienated fathers, as well as the behavior of women which is on public display. Your solution to that seems identical to the feminist solution…marry them regardless of their behavior, or the personal cost to the man.

    It really shouldn’t be much of a surprise to you when they flip you the bird.

    If you are really interested in civilization then start dealing realistically with the feral behavior of women.

  59. Outcast Superstar says:

    I got another good one a much shorter read. This one is was written by Bachelor Legend Christopher in Oregon. It’s called a “Comparison of Lives” between Married Men and Bachelors

    Enjoy!

    Fellows;

    Up until last week, I was still stubbornly playing Halo on my computer, in spite of having a shiny new X-Box and all of the Halo games to go with it. I hate change.

    Then, the unthinkable happened. The game cheated. The damn game cheated. I was becoming too proficient. I was winning too much. I was sailing through too fast too many times, and wiping out legions of Grunts, Jackals, Elites and the dreaded Flood. I was unstoppable. I was, as the Grunts put it, EVERYWHERE.

    The game seemed to retaliate.

    I was trying to wipe out the second pulse generator, for those of you familiar with the game, and every time I did, the game spewed out dozens of Flood to overwhelm me. I couldn’t get rid of them. They were everywhere. I spent two entire days trying to break through that section, to no avail. I finally got pissed off, stomped on the disc, and de-loaded the game from my ‘puter, never to play it again.

    I now play it on my X-Box, and it is far more enjoyable. So far, no more of that dreaded slow motion mode that frequently plagued play on the PC version, either. The guns all work infinitely better, as well. Even the dreaded “library” was easily overcome.

    NOW, before you think this thread needs to be relegated to the hobbies section, please understand I post this as an example of the concerns of a married man versus those of a bachelor.

    A married man has to worry about keeping his wife happy, his kids out of trouble, bills, college funds, life insurance, in-laws, STD’s, diapers, adultery…the works.

    I worry about different strategies in Halo. I stress over whether or not Call of Duty is worth the money. I worry about whether or not my new terminator game will drag me away from my fist love, Halo.

    My concerns are what a married man views as a hobby. A hobby he can’t enjoy. Imagine a married man spending the weekend, eighteen hours a day, playing Halo. Only if he wants to get a divorce.

    I can literally sit there from dawn til dusk, or dusk until dawn, playing Halo, only to get up to refill on coffee, and to pee it out afterward.

    Such a life.

  60. Ton says:

    I don’t see it either Greyghost, but true believers believers of false ideologies cannot abide anyone who disagrees

    emp, I simply gave my daughter and my son very different advice on how to navigate the smp/ mmp.

    Interesting concept Tom. I….cannot say your wrong I just don’t have the life experience to say but it makes sense, simple, accurate interesting

  61. crowhill says:

    Re: whether men are “naturally” promiscuous or polygamous or whatever ….

    It’s entirely possible that we have competing “natural” instincts.

  62. @Brad – I can relate. Allow me to suggest checking out Messianic Congregations. They dont tolerate fornication and have a better understanding of what it means to be a disciple/saint/holy one.
    ~Shalom

  63. James says:

    @Opus

    I feel a rule coming on: The number of Cads in society is going to be in proportion to the number of sluts

    I wish it were that simple. Women’s behavior changed (became more sluttish), and now men’s is changing in response; but that will not be the end of the game – women will react to our changes, and the conflict will go on for ever, without necessarily ever reaching a stable outcome.

    “Mating strategies” have long been studied by evolutionary biologists and game theorists. Their results suggests a permanent war between the sexes, in which any temporary advantage gained by one sex is quickly lost when the other sex adapts.

    For example, in a society with no cads, women would forget to guard against cads, and then any man who became a cad would have all of the advantages of caddishness (lots of offspring) with none of the disadvantages (rejection by high-quality mates). The result might be that as the generations progress, there is a constant cycle around different types of male and female behavior.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/more-grim-news-for-carousellers-hoping-to-jump-at-the-last-minute/#comment-62248

  64. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Michael Singer

    “When have you heard of a congregation kicking out members who a known living / sleeping together per 1 Cor 1 5:9-13 or saying frivdivorce allows for divorce?”

    You’ve heard of one. You evidently don’t approve that I was still able to attend worship services as a non-member.

  65. On a random note… I found the perfect song to describe the MGTOW. Seriously, it’s pretty great. It’s called “This is letting go.”

  66. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    lozozozlz
    what abo0ut da GRETA BOOKS FOR MENZZ!?? zllzozozo
    The renaissance hath begun.
    As Athena called Telemachus to adventure–to sail forth and learn the news of His True Father Odysseus, so too does GBFM call upon ye to man up, sail forth, and learn the news of your true Fathers.
    Like Hamlet you came of age in a world where your father–THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN–had been murdered. Where they had been debauched, debased, bernenekfified out of the fiat-debt curriculum. And just as Hamlet’s Father called upon Him to Avenge his Death and Set the World Right, so too do I call upon all of ye buton-mashing gamersz and manboob betasz churchians to Man Up and Honor Your True Fathers.
    Like Odysseus’s son Telemachus you came of age in a house occupied by false suitors trying to buttehxt your mom Penelope alongside your future wife, deosuling her faster than Bill Bennett can gamble away a million dollars in Vegas. You came of age in a home absent of your true Father–Odysseus and THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN.
    Like Telemachus and Hamlet, you were born to know of your Fathers and do the work of your Fathers, as did Jesus. And like Jesus, you were born into a fallen world occupied by arrogant neeoconth Scribes and Pharisees, lorded over by intellectually-indifferent Pontius Pilates, ruled by mobs (and female prison wardensz lzozlz) who vote to set the murderer free, while sending Jesus to die upon the Cross.
    But all of that was then, and This is Now.
    Do not fail to Honor your Fathers by neglecting to live for the Classical, Epic Honor that so many of them not only Lived for, but Died For.
    Do not turn away from the vast Gifts they bequeathed you with–THE GREAT BOOKS AND CLASSICS.
    Begin today, begin today, all ye fanboyz mashing buttonz in your single-mom’s basements, all you PUA artsitsz trying to get your occkas wet in sterile bungholez and sterilized ginaholez made sterile by the fed’s before and morning after pillz. Begin today, all my fatherless, ritalin-addicted, gold-farming sons and READ the GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN.
    Learn of the HONOR of your FATHERS form Achilles and Moses on down. The tiny-cckcoaaks white-knighting Churchians will scowl and stamp their feet and scream at you that Jesus cam to Abolish the Law, while Jesus himself stated that He came to Fulfill it.
    When you were a child ye partook in childish things–in mashing buttons in your meaningless videogamez.
    But now that you are a Man, it is time to Man Up, which does not mean marrying a babebrnekified beenrnakified butethxted, desouled, single monz, but reading THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN.
    Begin today my firendz. BEGIINZ TODAYZ.
    I propose that a renaissance in the Great Books and Classics is needed so as to re-instill a more traditional Code of Honor which will enrich the lives of men, women, and children, and liberate us all from the debt-financed debauchery, deconstruction, and debasement.
    All men should begin immediately by reading the following books which the central bankers and their fellow churchians hate, fear, and detest:
    0. THE BIBLE
    1. Homer’s Iliad
    2. Homer’s Odyssey
    3. Exodus & Ecclesiastes & The Psalms
    4. Virgil’s Aeneid
    5. Socrates’ Apology
    6. The Book of Matthew & Jefferson’s Bible
    7. Plato’s Repulic
    8. Seneca’s Letters from a Stoic
    9. Aristotle’s Poetics
    10. Dante’s Inferno
    11. The Declaration of Independence
    12. The Constitution
    13. John Milton’s Paradise Lost
    14. Shakespeare’s Hamlet
    15. Newton’s Principia
    16. Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and Theory of Moral Sentiments
    17. Henry David Thoreau’s Walden
    18. Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn (& all of his work)
    19. Shakespeare’s Hamlet
    20. Ludwig von Mises’ A Theory of Money and Credit
    21. F.A. Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom
    22. Herman Melville’s Moby Dick
    23. Einstein’s The Meaning of Relativity
    24. Joseph Campbell’s The Hero With a Thousand Faces and The Power of Myth
    25. Ron Paul’s Revolution & End the Fed
    26. THE BIBLE
    And as men are reading the Great Books for Men, they must start enacting their principles in the living world, so as to exalt our legal system and universities, for it is not enough to think and read, but virtue is ultimately defined by *action*.

  67. shinzaemon says:

    @ Outkast Superstar

    Excellent comment earlier up thread. This MGTOW hatred as of late has puzzled me. What about me, as a divorced man. Do you expect me to jump back in the saddle again. That is freaking insane. I am one and done.

    That comment thread on Vox blog became a shameless mess by the time I stopped reading. I appreciate he acknowledge the necessity of the Marriage Strike. The strike is a non violent way to right the ship before it is too late.

    What is so hard to understand?

    We don’t want our future wives bernakified with butthext from tucker max.

  68. On the $100K thing, remember $100K means various levels of government will swipe around 40%. Add to that the cost of taking care of your wife, possibly any kids, and the larger house you need to take care of them all, and before you know it, the money you have to spend on yourself and the stuff you like is way, way, way less than a single man earning $50K has.

    BTW, I’m married.

  69. Cane Caldo says:

    @Fearsome Pirate

    Strange to see you here. I used to read your blog, and commented a few times. That was mostly before Internet Monk died.

    You were always my favorite contributor at Boar’s Head Tavern.

  70. greyghost says:

    32 to 38k a year for a single man in Texas is a good life. He can save have his own place and if he is not hung up on wasting money with the lasts and greatest everything he lives well. Just think a divorced man lifestyle with out the divorce. No need for peacock nesting on flash for women . Smaller house for comfort only large in areas that you need big kitchen for a cook or large lot for guys that like to have friends over outside. Or some may like acreage to enjoy shooting on.. with out the need to comfort a woman enough to not use laws of misandry on you life is enjoyable and inexpensive. Even for a man to have a child is cheaper and more emotionally rewarding than a loving wife.

  71. The problem between the two boils down to this:

    The traditionalists say: “Yes, it’s rough, but you should be moral, get married, be a father, have a family.”
    MGTOW reply: “Dude… you’re miserable because of your wife, she’s threatened to divorce you over things like the truck you let your son buy. You slave away for a wife that got fat, gives you tons of flak, you go to a church that hates men, you’re under a ton of stress because the job market is bad and you have a mortgage to pay and three kids, and your teenager is rebelling and stressing you both out… why would I want to do that when my life looks like a permanent vacation, compared to that?”
    Traditionalists: “Well… uh, you marry the right girl, and love each other and it’s worthwhile…”
    MGTOW: “Great. According to Focus on the Family, people that go to church every week only get divorced 38% of the time, and then because women always marry up, they almost always get alimony, then full custody, child support. And you’re bankrupt, like your wife has threatened to make you four times over the last three years.”

  72. Houston says:

    I don’t think it’s much of a mystery why certain civilizationists are leaning so hard on MGTOWs to “man up” and slip the Marriage 2.0 noose around their necks. The civs know they are powerless to change the anti-man laws and they realize the utter futility of persuading feral women to love and appreciate non-alpha men. They imagine they still have influence with men who’ve rejected both feminism and modern marriage. Metaphorically, they are attacking on the only front where they haven’t been resoundingly defeated (this front being in actuality the camp of neutrals and allies).

  73. an observer says:

    My husband also says that one woman is more than enough to deal with.

    The downside of polygamy: multiple mothers in law.

  74. Opus says:

    I suspect that the pressure to marry, is a particularly American phenomena – you obviously believe in marriage. For myself (in England) I cannot recall ever being under any pressure to do so – almost the reverse – and I don’t see it otherwise with other people; neither have I ever really come across any woman obviously genuinely keen to do so – really. My friend’s niece is marrying shortly – she is 29 – and his response to one of his sisters on hearing of the joyful forthcoming event was merely ‘Is she pregnant?’

    Whatever the reason, it also appears to be the case that laws in relation to the dissolution of marriages – bad though they are – are nowhere near as Draconian as in America – but then again Feminism, a word I do not like to use because of its vagueness and its being indistinguishable from Business-as-usual for women, seems less extreme, here – generally. By way of example: on returning from America I had become used to referring to females as women; doing so one day to a couple of middle-aged typists produced the following response ” We ain’t women is we, we is gells”. The law is normally easier on women than men, but not by any means always – especially if you consider the persecution – I use that word intentionally – of our Tram girls (for thought crimes).

    Over here, no one cares. The only people desperate to marry each other are Homo-sexuals.

  75. Tam the Bam says:

    Why are the traddoes sweating about the Fate of Civilization so much?
    I’m not bothered. It’s in my head, and follows me about. Can’t get away from it to be frank, sometimes it’s a damn’ nuisance. If I want some more, I’ll just make it by “daydreaming”, or out of stuff that’s lying about. Y’know. That _guy thing_ that we do? How come they can’t do it too?

  76. @ Ecclesiastes -” You’ve heard of one. You evidently don’t approve that I was still able to attend worship services as a non-member.”
    What I think doesn’t matter – but what does the scripture say in 1 Cor 5 (pssst look @ vs. 13)? It is pretty obvious they were NOT following it.
    ~Shalom

  77. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    Usually, I avoid scriptural debate as you know, but since we’ve got this narrowed down, I’ll play.

    1 Cor 5:9-13 doesn’t precisely say what you suggest.

    Using the Codex Vaticanus, verse 10 says fornicator ( πόρνοις ), and I was not a fornicator but an adulterer for sleeping with my ex-wife ( on the odd occasion she’d *do* that ). Next, those verses don’t say to put him out of the building during worship, but that they should not keep ( intimate ) company ( μὴ συναναμίγνυσθαι ) with a brother ( ἀδελφὸς ) nor eat with him ( τῷ τοιούτῳ μηδὲ συνεσθίειν ).

    Now, I ( not a brother but a persistent visitor), in fact, was invited to participate in the after service lunch, and therefore that congregation was on the edge but I submit that they were not over it, and – in regard to the worship service – they were absolutely NOT so.

    I await your reply,

    Ecclesiastes
    The Rigorist

  78. ballista74 says:

    Excellent comment earlier up thread. This MGTOW hatred as of late has puzzled me. What about me, as a divorced man. Do you expect me to jump back in the saddle again. That is freaking insane. I am one and done.

    There’s factionalism, even with the manosphere, when it comes to MGTOW, MRA, and PUA. MGTOW has been trending upward while the other two has been trending downward. There are reasons for this (the woolybumblebee video being a good illustration), but a good amount of the recent hatred comes from manosphere factionalism. But as I’ve noticed, expressions of hatred from the traditional feminist front is growing too because they notice this. A lot of the overriding factor, though, is simply because men are choosing to define the worth of their lives outside of the servitude to women, and it threatens a lot of people as a result for various reasons.

  79. Höllenhund says:

    I suppose the shaming directed at MGTOWs is mostly coming from married people (especially women) with young children (especially daughters). They have a stake in the future of this society because…well, they don’t exactly have any other choice, do they? They are extremely worried that their lovely princesses will get pumped + dumped by alpha louts, plus their main interest is the preservation of social stability at any cost, for obvious reasons. For these reasons they want all men to get married and work as hard as they can. All societies are kept afloat by worker drones, after all.

    This is to be expected, though. We can’t really expect an over-mortgaged, overworked, married wage slave to have the same outlook on life as a young, single, free man. Not even if both of them profess to be anti-feminists.

  80. Höllenhund says:

    The pressure to marry is present in all societies to some extent, and it mostly comes from older men. If you’re older than, say, 30 and still unmarried, they see you as suspicious. They’re unlikely to give you a job and they won’t give you social status.

  81. BradA says:

    Focus only on yourself and you will get more of it. Not consistent with the Scriptures, but hey, that doesn’t seem to be important to most so have fun!

  82. Mark Minter says:

    Matthew,
    All in all that was a good and probably necessary comment.

    But for clarification sake, I reference Wikipedia on Nihilism. I do not refer to the particular definitions of Nihilism from philosophy, but the general one Wikipedia provides

    “The term nihilism is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realizing there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws. ”

    I would say given that definition, then it is rock slinging to call those men that particularly frequent the more common Game blogs as “nihilists” other than they do not agree with a set of conventions and social rules that do not favor nor even care about them anymore than cogs in a wheel.

    I am in the camp of those that do rely on recent advances in Evolutionary Psychology, endocrinology, and neuroscience in conjunction with other academic studies and the wealth of anecdotes from the men. But my intention and I think that of the others is to blunt the idea of the “tabla raza”, that gender is a construct of culture.

    And frankly I find anyone that mocks me for doing so is of little concern to me because I have both seen and experienced the evidence of the functionality of their implementation. I did understand your “phrenology” comment. Whether you agree or not, I feel that I am researching legitimate sources and that the stuff I repeat to the greater community has merit exactly because of the sources that I use.

    And I find there is help for individual men in understanding this data. I saw it work this week. I counseled a 63 year old man and he came back and said in his dealings with his ex-wife during an extremely emotional time, that he felt as if “he had the answers to the test”, that because he understood her motivations, her psychology, even her biology, he was far better able to deal with her, blunt her, to have “amused mastery” in his dealings with her, and the dynamic of their interactions dramatically changed.

    So this week I helped one man that was in serious pain before find a way to not be in pain. And I did with what I learned on Roissy, on RationalMale, on Dalrock, on Roosh, the EP, the neuroscience, the theories, the anecdotes, and I fucking refuse to invalidate or allow that experience to be invalidated.

    To me those men are people that are trying to cope with a reality that has been given to them that most of the have had little to do with creating it. And if what we do here helps those men to live a life with less pain, less angst, less suffering, then it works for me. And I “thank god” that this forum, this community, especially that segment of it, exists as our own modern “ministry” to administer to the needs of millions of men in their suffering.

    Frankly I consider myself most fortunate to not carry the burden of either “civilization” nor “morality”. Because frankly I find both to be completely ridiculous and the true intellectual man falls for neither. And I have the snobbery to laugh at anyone that stands on either as the intellectual basis of their argument.

    I could give a shit about civilization and frankly I find this whole discussion somewhat comical, that anything we do here is going to destroy the civilization. That is utter nonsense. I have seen statistics that 35% of men do not have jobs. Does it look like “the civilization” is collapsing . Or that a low birthrate among western women will collapse “civilization”.

    Do not kid yourself. There are 7 billion people on this planet. Some slightly small percentage of products are made in “the civilization”, meaning the western world. If American women do not give birth to 30 million white children over the next 10 years or if 40 million American men decide to “check out”, things will hum along just fine. This “civilization” took a staggering shot in the face 5 years ago, and today, cars are being sold, stocks are higher than before, the highways are full, and stores are selling things. Cranes in ports are busy unloading products made in other places by other men. And despite the probable permanent loss of many male jobs and the wrecked lives of many men, the “civilization” remains fine.

    With a stroke of a pen, any of you can and will be replaced. The immigration reform bill just cleared the Senate committee with a vote of 13-7. Your replacements are waiting in the wings already. At any point, any job can be either outsourced or a worker imported, one willing to jump right in. Ok, fine, it probably, for now, is a political machination designed to piss off Latino voters when the Republications kill it in the house and keep them firmly in Democratic camps. But one day it won’t be, and one day, just like Gay Marriage, Obamacare, when women and when the business community believes it to be a necessity, then it will happen and you will be able to do nothing to stop it.

    This “machine”, this system is far too resilient, far too distributed, far too far flung, far too redundant, the world populated beyond your conception of it, the elites far too wealthy, far too powerful, for the actions of some men to bring about the end of “civilization”.

    This is almost like the George Carlin monologue about environmentalists and their concern for the “planet”. Their concern was for “their planet”, save “their world” so they could continue to live as they did. He said “the planet” will be just fine. It may not continue in the same manner as it did to provide and continue the lifestyle those people concerned with “the planet” wanted. And same goes for “civilization”. It will do just fine. It may not be ordered in ways you agree with, with a morality that you find appealing, populated by people with skin colors you prefer, but tomorrow, next month, next year, 10 years, 1000 years from now, there will be a “civilization”. Mankind has suffered far worse than the withdrawal of some western men from institutions that are dying anyway or evolving to do without them.

    I have said this before and I will say it again.

    There will be no grand macro solution that will end your suffering.

    Your solution is within your hands. What we do here is not about an “us” as a “civilization”, it is about the collective “us” as individual men, the effect we have on the day to day lives of our men, to give them the power and will to power to affect their own lives, armed with knowledge in which to make choices that work best for them.

    And all this hand wringing is a tempest in a teapot. And I could give a fuck about civilization.

    But I care deeply about each of you.

  83. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Minter

    Ecclesiastes – it’s a short book. I recommend it.

    It will save you the trouble of having to write all that again, unless you need to vent of course.

  84. mackPUA says:

    Extremely off-topic post … lol

    I’m a huge fan of taoism & zen & holism theory, & universal absolutes, so yea, this post is pretty funky … lol

    @Mark Minter

    “Frankly I consider myself most fortunate to not carry the burden of either “civilization” nor “morality”.”

    Brilliantly said

    Know everything, believe nothing, do everything from a point of impossibilty, if you achieve even a fraction of an impossibility, you gain everything – mackPUA

    The intellect is all about sensitising yourself to a point of infinity, by realising, to know something you have to unknow it first

    What you dont know will always be greater then what you do know ….

    By sensitising yourelf to what you dont know, you can know everything, as what you dont know will always be greater then what you do know …

    Sensitise yourself to the unknown of an object, or body of knowledge, tap into the infinity of an object by realising what you dont know about it

    Western philosophy asks the wrong question … the correct question is, how do you know, you dont know … how do you learn not to know a something …

    The computation capability of what you dont know, will always be greater then what you do know

  85. greyghost says:

    Minter
    You have faith in civilization as I do. Some things take care of itself and that is one thing that does. Let’s just get down to business. Imagine how much the churchians could restore Christianity in the church if they had faith not only in civilization but in god himself. Too bad they put their faith in the feminine imperative.
    Hollenhund
    When enough women concern themselves about not having men that marry. And the solution they choose to find the “fix” doesn’t involve more misandry maybe things will change. Women will not remove laws of misandry at best they won’t stop someone else from removing them.
    As for being 30 plus and single. Just say “my ex wife” one time and you will go from creep to I understand.
    MGTOW is a state of mind men should have had all along. Adam was MGTOW God’s word would have been a priority over some shit Eve pulled. Women are for sticking your penis in not for worship traditional churchians, Think about that one to get the beauty of it.

  86. greyghost says:

    BradA
    You were born in a time where your greatest legacy will come from establishing a foundation for the tradition you feel you are upholding. Most importantly you will not be blissfully ignorant you will know the truth. You won’t be able to enjoy packaged meat and vegetables any more you will have to toil with the earth and kill and butcher your meat. (you get to see sausage being made) And what you are seeing today in all of it’s bluepill immorality is what it looks like.
    Don’t let some perceived high and mighty saving civilization be your worldly approved justification for lack of faith and fear. The pain and horror in ones heart of seeing all that is your essence of who you are and your manliness is being violated by the truth. Your essence was built on a foundation that was a lie meant to take advantage of your sense of duty and honor. (if that is not evil what else is?) Feel blessed to be with men speaking this way and feel truly bless to see why God’s word is what it is. Understand pleasing to god may not be pleasing to man in any way. Now is when courage and faith are tested. Up to now the church has failed big time. Christian men outside of the church are now taking up the challenge. Some of them are even self identified as atheist behaving as Christian men.

  87. @Ecclesiastes _ Wow so the scriptures dont mean what they really say ??? LOL🙂
    I dont like to argue scriptures with Non Disciples but I throw this out. Your stance has moved from “thin ice” to “broken through” and drowning (ie the scripture really does mean what it says)
    I will stay in the interlinear bibles with a preference toward the Apostolic Polyglot in the NT.
    Allow me to suggest to consider “Jewish” practices, OT Context, NT Context, and not Pagen infiltrated laity that has been in practice for centuries.
    What was the result of incident ? Paul delivered this man to Satan ( This cannot be denied) and commanded the church to “Put away the evil person from among yourselves.” as in vs 13
    The context of the scripture is not to condone with those who are named as a believer who Paul commonly referred to as “saints/holy ones”
    “But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or verbally abusive, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.”
    – They removed this man from the congregation & later received back after he repented.
    – What was the OT practice (removal from the camp) ?
    – What about other NT writings by the same author (Gal 5:19-21, 1 Cor 6:9-11, Eph 5:3, Col 3:5-6 and the commandments of other NT writers and the stern commandments of Christ ?).

    Further thoughts if you permit – have you legally remarried her? According to the teachings of Yahsha – you are married (John 4:18) and Paul (1 Cor 6:15-16). If you haven’t reunited/remarried to her – than you and the other person commits adultery/polygamy when you do remarry.
    Congratulations !!!!

    Allow me to suggest staying exactly where you are at – I fear if you where to fellowship with G_DLY men & women it would be to your determinant (1 Cor 11:27-32)
    ~Shalom

  88. Matthew King says:

    Mark Minter wrote:

    I would say given that definition, then it is rock slinging to call those men that particularly frequent the more common Game blogs as “nihilists” other than they do not agree with a set of conventions and social rules that do not favor nor even care about them anymore than cogs in a wheel.

    Fair enough. On the surface. I am talking about the more fundamental nihilism that animates these poorly-moored systems of thought, which are largely make-it-up-as-you-go. Evolutionary psychology is shamanism: so long as you make a plausible connection to life on the veldt, assertions must be regarded as unimpeachable. This is fideism.

    The nihilism I’m talking about is what Nietzsche called the abyss. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby becomes a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you” (BG&E IV, 146). Even the philosopher genius — our philosopher — went literally mad staring into that void, pouring his efforts into an attempt to fill a bottomless hole.

    [M]y intention and I think that of the others is to blunt the idea of the “tabla raza” [sic], that gender is a construct of culture.

    A noble and righteous crusade, and more power to you. But know that you are ultimately fighting with dull weapons and replacing one false idol with another.

    And frankly I find anyone that mocks me for doing so is of little concern to me because I have both seen and experienced the evidence of the functionality of their implementation.

    Of course it is functional. This will be enough for your limited aims. You have no ambition beyond “help[ing] … individual men in understanding this data,” and may your kind be multiplied. But this change of the window dressing will not effect a revolutionary metanoia or transformation of mind like feminism and cultural Marxism did to a pliant West. And it doesn’t help to make yourself the enemy of people like me, operating strategically and above your pay grade.

    So this week I helped one man that was in serious pain before find a way to not be in pain. And I did with what I learned on Roissy, on RationalMale, on Dalrock, on Roosh, the EP, the neuroscience, the theories, the anecdotes, and I fucking refuse to invalidate or allow that experience to be invalidated.

    You are reading too much into my suggestions. We are talking about very different things. I don’t seek to invalidate anyone attempting to man-up the victims and lost souls of this walking-dead generation of men. On the contrary, I support you 100%.

    It is because I support your effort that I am obliged to point out its vulnerabilities and limitations.

    Frankly I consider myself most fortunate to not carry the burden of either “civilization” nor “morality”. Because frankly I find both to be completely ridiculous and the true intellectual man falls for neither. And I have the snobbery to laugh at anyone that stands on either as the intellectual basis of their argument.

    Undereducated bravado. Ugly too. What do you know of “the true intellectual man”? (Beyond what the “Three R’s” [Roissy, Roosh, Rollo] whispered in your ear.)

    I could give a shit about civilization and frankly I find this whole discussion somewhat comical, that anything we do here is going to destroy the civilization. That is utter nonsense. I have seen statistics that 35% of men do not have jobs.

    You mistake effects for causes. You are not destroying civilization, but your superficial methodology is an indication that civilization is indeed rotting from within, and you’re not up to the rehab project. Your attempt to address the rot with inadequate intellectual tools is as much of a sign of decay as the “statistics” you “have seen.”

    This “machine”, this system is far too resilient, far too distributed, far too far flung, far too redundant, the world populated beyond your conception of it, the elites far too wealthy, far too powerful, for the actions of some men to bring about the end of “civilization”.

    Despair is weakness. Ugly too. Hopelessness is a self-fulfilling prophesy, which is why it is among the gravest of sins.

    This is almost like the George Carlin monologue about environmentalists … Mankind has suffered far worse than the withdrawal of some western men from institutions that are dying anyway or evolving to do without them.

    I am the furthest thing from an environmentalist, and to mistake me for one is further evidence of your nihilism, which is a simple psychological product of despair. You choose the arguments of interlocutors you can handle and dismiss them like straw.

    “I care deeply about each of you,” you claim, and yet you associate yourself with the comments of a true hater of human life, Carlin, whose bottom line is anti-man. I will do you one better. “I love each of you,” including the woefully misguided, including my enemies. I do not want to see anyone subject to the wrath of nature’s backlash, even those who mightily deserve it, even those whose torture would be pleasing and just to my vengeful eyes.

    Of course “naturam expellas furca, tamen usque recurret” (Horace) — you can expel nature with a pitchfork, but she will come rushing back. The difference is I do not have a mind of revenge or bitterness for those who wielded the pitchfork when nature does return. “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall” (Isa 55:11). We let women take over our institutions: we fucked up big, big time. But “use every man / after his desert, and who should ‘scape whipping?” (Hamlet II.ii). None of us are clean of this mess, we all contributed in our way.

    In other words, we look back only to diagnose the problem, not to persecute the problem-makers. They are innocent of the lies their mothers told them. Just as you are innocent of having your life taken from you by a malicious ideology. What good does praying for “a real rain [to] come and wash this scum off the streets” do? That’s a tragic waste of the life you have left to live, the energy you have left to give.

    Ask not for whom the bell tolls, brother, it tolls for thee.

    I have said this before and I will say it again.

    There will be no grand macro solution that will end your suffering.

    Your solution is within your hands. What we do here is not about an “us” as a “civilization”, it is about the collective “us” as individual men, the effect we have on the day to day lives of our men, to give them the power and will to power to affect their own lives, armed with knowledge in which to make choices that work best for them.

    And all this hand wringing is a tempest in a teapot. And I could give a fuck about civilization.

    But I care deeply about each of you.

    I do like this cheerleading, but your age and gloominess controls it and practically ruins it. If you “care[d] deeply about each of” us, you would care about the civilization that has shaped and will sustain us. You wax romantic about the state of nature outside the civil walls but do not come to grips with the reality, thinking your rebellious rejection a manly display. But:

    In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force, no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and, which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

    — Hobbes, Leviathan, XIII

    I understand why this sort of dangerous life is appealing to men who have witnessed their long, slow enervation at the hands of gruesome women. Especially because those women took advantage of artifice to accomplish their wickedness. It makes artifice itself seem like part of the problem, if not the enemy itself. But you presume one cannot be both manly and civilized. You find justification in calling civilization itself too soft, too moderate a solution to the corruption.

    And what I’m saying is you have not dug deep enough. The reconciliation is there, if you have the patience and the nerve to delve down to it. But for too many of you, urgency drives you to quick fixes, and the enormity of a million tiny tasks inevitably must drive you to despair.

    Instead of micromanaging every leaking crack in the ancient, poorly fashioned edifice, it sometimes pays to construct an entirely new dam downstream.

    “And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

    Matt

  89. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    The scriptures say what they say and NOT what you want them to. I thought you were clear on that. If you want to be precise, I was precise, and you are precisely wrong.

    Now, “in context”, it says not to have close relations with men who do a class of things and there was a list. “In context” I was not habitually engaging in licentiousness and bringing shame upon them by association. “In context”, I wasn’t even divorced – except by civil law, not something that was taken into account by those Jews. Yet, I was held apart. My situation was ambiguous.

    That congregation followed all the guidance of the scripture, including the parts about compassion and forgiveness.

    What you propose is to take the particulars of that list and spread them as far as you are able. What you are arguing for is hiding the word of God from those who need it. You’d make a good Pharisee.

    You can run to translations, if you like, in order to get that done.

    So, Jesus sinned, did he? I’ll bet you’re very very proud to be better than He, except … you just rallied! No church for you this month, I mean, if they catch you.

  90. MGTOW is NOT the opposite of marriage, it is the only way that true marriage can be realized. Marriage 2.0 is the opposite of real marriage.

    I hear churchian feminists talk about how it’s the mans job to “pursue” a woman, because they claim that means leadership. I tell them that it’s the opposite of leadership.

    Pursuing means following. MGTOW means doing your own thing and living your own life, and if a woman wants to follow you (pursue), then maybe she can think of some creative ways to help you and make your life easier. If she does a good job, then maybe you’ll let her stick around.

    Women have nothing to offer men or society. Men produce. Men build. Men Women are only good for producing more men, and they will do that anyways as we have all seen.

    It’s called “Mankind” for a reason

  91. Matthew King says:

    Know everything, believe nothing, do everything from a point of impossibilty, if you achieve even a fraction of an impossibility, you gain everything – mackPUA

    Was your observation inspired by a Snapple lid? A Nike commercial? A Tetley tea bag? A fortune cookie?

    This is exactly the kind of inadequacy that corrodes the foundation of what should be a strong movement — united in social, philosophical, political, and experiential purpose.

    You who think it manly to reject the physics of morality are like PCP junkies rejecting the law of gravity. It is bold — in a way — to stake your life on an assertion against truth. (“Quid est veritas?” Jn 18:38) But truth always wins, just like gravity. And you end up splattered, your legacy remembered more for its foolishness than its bravery.

    Hey, maybe, like, morality is just a construct mannn. Whatever — think however you want to think, and suffer the consequences. But please: don’t believe you change the world by simple assertion. And pretty please with sugar on top: don’t imagine you’re the first fools to have stumbled over this “insight.” You are eternally recurring in history, the deadly cocktail of ignorance and arrogance, a boorish adolescent male specialty. At least learn about all the fools who preceded you before attempting to foist your declarations on those of us who have run into your type many times, again and again.

    EVIL IS KEWL. Cuz I say so. Wanna fight about it?!?

    Fucking yawn.

    Matt

  92. The Desert Fathers and the Benedictines: the first and greatest MGTOW?

  93. greyghost says:

    Matthew King
    Let’s not get too cute with the intellect.
    This exchange here I found interesting
    From Mark Minter
    So this week I helped one man that was in serious pain before find a way to not be in pain. And I did with what I learned on Roissy, on RationalMale, on Dalrock, on Roosh, the EP, the neuroscience, the theories, the anecdotes, and I fucking refuse to invalidate or allow that experience to be invalidated.
    from Mathew King
    You are reading too much into my suggestions. We are talking about very different things. I don’t seek to invalidate anyone attempting to man-up the victims and lost souls of this walking-dead generation of men. On the contrary, I support you 100%.

    It is because I support your effort that I am obliged to point out its vulnerabilities and limitations.

    Maybe a good approach would be to just know you have his back. No one man or way is going to beat this monster. The contact between the manosphere and Orthosphere? is needed as both must work together to achieve the goal of stable sustainable society with out misandry. (I may not have used the proper words but I hope those reading have an understanding of what I mean)
    We will have warrior types that go out and fight the beast and we will have to understand and love those men and be here to show them how to be human again. Minter has taken a broken man and given him a way to inner peace and strength. Imagine what wisdom that man now has to share and add to his reading of scripture.
    Sometimes it is best to give yourself some solid ground and get to work. There is no perfect time in place for these things but for some reason you just know it is the right time.

  94. They Call Me Tom says:

    I think in general, it’s important that people are honest about what they are thinking. G.K. Chesterton said it pretty well, that if two people knowingly disagree, they both can run their argument (and their thinking) right up to the edge of the cliff; but if two people aren’t honest about their disagreement, they’ll stay a mile clear of the cliff’s edge… their thinking won’t get especially precise. Mind you, I’m a pluralist, an unspoken idea, a politically correct idea, is not doing anyone any good in finding out the truth.

  95. They Call Me Tom says:

    Great Books… I would think ‘Young Goodman Brown’ should be on your list, (I like adding things to your list), it’s pretty much in line with the experience of modern man in the face of the corrupted current state of marriage and women.

  96. Kate says:

    “Young Goodman Brown”: That’s a chilling one. I keep trying to get GBFM to add to his list, but he never listens to me😉 If you succeed, get him to add these too: The Scarlet Letter, Gone with the Wind, McTeague, Roxana, Sister Carrie, Lady Chatterly’s Lover, Bridget Jones’ Diary (okay that last one was a joke)🙂

  97. @Ecclesiastes – “bringing shame upon them by association”
    -It isn’t about shame. It is about contamination as “Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals. (1 Cor 15:53)

    “In context”, I wasn’t even divorced – except by civil law, not something that was taken into account by those Jews. Yet, I was held apart. My situation was ambiguous.”
    – What in the heck is this ???? This is delusional / compartmentalized statement if there ever was one. Could you please explain this in light of 1 Cor 7 & Matt 5:31 It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’
    Are you saying civil divorce isn’t a ” certificate of divorce” and your situation is “ambiguous”.
    It would appear the only it is ambiguous is you. As the old saying goes “love is blind but the neighbors are not”

    “What you are arguing for is hiding the word of God from those who need it. You’d make a good Pharisee.”
    – As a Messianic Jew, I find this remark interesting. Why did Yahshua “slam” the Pharisees ? For putting the Talmud above the Torah as seen in Mark 7:8 “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
    So who is the Pharisee by stating ” I wasn’t even divorced – except by civil law” “My situation was ambiguous” despite a “civil divorce.
    So who is the Pharisee ? One one who says to be a disciple of Yahshua or a “holy one” one has to obey the stern teachings of Yahshua and the Apostles or the one who is in a in self delusion about a “ambiguous” situation despite a civil divorce ?

    Couple of closing thoughts:
    – Forgiveness is dependent on repentance. Most Christians dont understand the difference (Matt 7:22-23 and many many more)
    – One will reap exactly what they sow. This is universal law and perfect justice.
    – Can you name a single verse in either the OT/NT that says grace/favor nullifies or dismisses or minimizes or subtracts or does away the laws of reaping / sowing or the strict commandments of Yahshua / Apostles ? Good luck on that one🙂

    John the Baptist, Yahshua, and the Apostles all taught repentance, baptism, Kingdom, and discipleship and not accept “Jesus” in your heart, raise your hand, or make a profession (I have kept my sword sheathed despite “whatever” you may think – I am being truthful with you). You will reap exactly what you sow- grace/favor doesn’t change that- if you doubt this then you are living in a all encompassing panacea drinking Kool_Aid and wearing rose colored glasses.

    “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” ~ 1 Cor 15:34

    ~Shalom

  98. Btw in 1 Cor 5:10 the Greek is “pornos” akin porné and is used in the NT specifically 10 times.
    I suggest you review the context where it is used:
    http://biblesuite.com/greek/strongs_4205.htm
    “You can attempt to twist the scriptures to your determinant – Peter warned about this.
    He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16)
    Allow me to suggest “Metanoēsate”
    ~Shalom

  99. I will stay in the interlinear bibles with a preference toward the Apostolic Polyglot in the NT.

    OK

  100. One of the flay rods got stuck on the treddle

  101. I guess when Yahsua said if you love me give me a kiss ? No, He said keep my commandments.
    According to what you are very typical of “Luke Warm” delusional / compartmentalized thinking -which means the following:
    “Yahshua said if you love Me – keep my commandments”
    “Grace” says I can love Him and not keep His commandments.

    Paul said “Every sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of G_D.”
    Grace says ” I can be sexually immoral or impure or greedy person and inherit the Kingdom of G_D

    Paul said for “if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
    Grace says ” I can live according to flesh and I wont die. And I dont put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit I will live”

    Your reply is ex-facie / argumentum ad absurdum

    Ever wonder review the teachings and practices of Christian churches that are preaching unscriptural doctrines, such as lawless grace and escape-by-rapture. Perhaps this is why so many “Christians”, including pastors, dont have integrity and are the brunt of jokes by Jews ?

    Keep on going to a apostate church and have ears tickled. Despite your profession it is quite obvious whether one is walking with G_D or not.
    ~Shalom

  102. BradA says:

    greyghost,

    My generation seems a lot more hedonist than you note, though I consider myself part of Gen X more than the Baby Boomers.

    If civilization falls to the point you note most of us will be dead, including those who fiddled while Rome burned. I would rather please my Lord than indulge in some fun for a relatively short time. Eternity will last quite a long time.

  103. Ton says:

    None of those added books do fuckall go address how man behave in a traditional manner. Might as well add house wife porn to the list of you allow that horseshit

  104. BradA says:

    Michael,

    A true grace message is rarely preached. Paul was accused of being in error here, so I would be glad to stand with him.

    Note that such is different from either law or license.

  105. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    OK. I’m tired. You win. I should not have been allowed to attend a worship service. They were fallen away and corrupt and I won’t bring it up again, ever.

    So I’m going to agree with you, and I’m not going to let you change you mind either. You had your say and you will stand by it.

    The church you are looking for will have a bouncer at the door to check the sanctity of every attendee’s conduct before being allowed to enter. Nothing less will do for you.

    Actually, it will be a congregation of invited attendance only, and the bouncer will only have to check the invitation.

    Nothing less will accomplish the perfection of congregation you require. They will turn away any who have divorced, any who has been drunk recently, any who has expressed desire of another man’s property, or has worked to obtain it. No one who has obsessed. No one who has lied. No one who has threatened another man.

    Your congregation will be the very best.

    I don’t want to attend your church. I suspect all the rich will have preferred seating at the front.

  106. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    “As a Messianic Jew, I find this remark interesting. Why did Yahshua “slam” the Pharisees ? For putting the Talmud above the Torah as seen in Mark 7:8 “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
    So who is the Pharisee by stating ” I wasn’t even divorced – except by civil law” “My situation was ambiguous” despite a “civil divorce.””

    We’ll do it your way, but I don’t quite understand how you square these with each other nor with what Paul is saying only 2 chapters later. Obviously in this chapter, Paul means marriage to be whatever the current civil authority says it is – as that civil authority is issuing certificates of divorce and thus also of marriage. I obviously was wrong in assuming that Caesar’s marriages were given no more recognition than his money. I rather thought Paul would have meant God’s preferences of marriage over Caesar’s, but you’re the authority.

    I humbly accept your definition of Pharisee, now explain this to me. I especially want to hear how Paul’s lesson now demands the Christian recognition of homosexual marriages.

  107. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    “As the old saying goes “love is blind but the neighbors are not”

    Fine. All my children, the one mother of all my children, myself, and no others were all living in my home. What would that look like to you?

    Obviously, we were all living in sin. There was a divorce decree … how could it be ambiguous?

    Not only do I not want an invitation to your church, I don’t want you as a neighbor either.

  108. jaybeespancakes says:

    There’s an interesting game of trying to claim the high ground by narrowing the definitions. I thought MGTOW used to be applicable to the single guy who stayed single and uninvolved when put under the pressure of his local church to marry up the slut with any of the “re-virgined” girls who came with the ready-made family kit of existing kids and a prior unilateral divorce not for adultery.

    There’s a group who call themselves civilizationists who believe they have to save Western Civilization to save Christianity, and do so by breeding the foot soldiers, and then there’s a group of people who think they’re MGTOWs who believe Christianity doesn’t need Western Civ anymore, so let it collapse, but they aren’t PUAs. It looks like “be fruitful and multiply” is at war with “come out of her, my people”.

    I am going to have to throw out my old glossary. Civilizationist = co-dependent feminist enabler; MGTOW = nihilist PUA.

  109. Ecclesiastes says:

    @jaybeespancakes,

    Again, I recommend the Book of Ecclesiastes. It’s short and largely supports MGTOW.

    It’s absolutely anti-Civilizationist, at least.

    Really. Read it yourself.

  110. jaybeespancakes says:

    @Ecclesiastes

    I appreciate the recommendation; it is in fact one of my favorite books of the Old Testament. “The heart of the wise man is in the house of morning, while the heart of the fool is in the house of mirth.” “Vanity of vanity; all is vanity; … there is nothing new under the sun.” All of this will pass away, but to please God shall be the focus of all our energies.

    If you want a real treat, track down a recording of Sidney Greidanus discussing how to preach Christ from Ecclesiastes and doing some actual preaching of Christ from Ecclesiastes. He has a book (discussed here – http://tgcreviews.com/reviews/preaching-christ-from-ecclesiastes/) that I’ve started through, but, of course, I’m not a pastor, and it is targeted more at pastors.

  111. jaybeespancakes says:

    That should have been the obvious “mourning”.

  112. They Call Me Tom says:

    Ecclesiastes is Existentialism before it was hip with modernists ha ha.

  113. greyghost says:

    My generation seems a lot more hedonist than you note, though I consider myself part of Gen X more than the Baby Boomers.

    If civilization falls to the point you note most of us will be dead, including those who fiddled while Rome burned. I would rather please my Lord than indulge in some fun for a relatively short time. Eternity will last quite a long time.
    BradA
    You still think this is about getting pussy. This is about changing the course of western history. Anybody can go out and get ass off the sluts we have walking around out there today. You can talk all of the god this and that shit you want but if you think playing righteous man with the lord will save you, you are wrong. The PUA and MGTOW are your warriors that will give you the opportunity to play a role in history.
    did you ever wonder what dalrock was doing having these different groups coming together. You have been given a blessing to be here in this time in history.

  114. Ecclesiastes says:

    @greyghost,

    Great. I live in interesting times.

  115. @ Ecclesiastes – “Not only do I not want an invitation to your church”
    1. Who invited you ? I sure didn’t. As mentioned earlier – I/we would not want to be contaminated. as It would be to your harm 1 Cor 11:27-32.
    2. Your problems are with Yahshua and HIS word – not me – despite what you think.
    3. Yahshua made no mention to the two thieves on the cross till one acknowledged Him as Messiah and his crimes. I suggest you might want to read what he said.

    In regards to your “ambiguous” situation it reminds me of “kinda pregnant”. Well one is married or they are not as one is pregnant or one is not. Apparently there is some confusion between you and yourself regarding the definition of marriage – I suggest you seek professional & legal help. From what you have wrote it would appear your children are bastards in the legal definition.

    – In regards to the church bouncer – I suggest you read 1 Cor 14:24-25.
    – In regards to the rich having preferred seating – you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you been to a Jewish synagogue ?
    – In regards to marriage – Matt 19:15, Mark 10:7, Eph 5:31-33 (For further insight – see Rom 2)

    This is hilarious.
    “So who is the Pharisee by stating ” I wasn’t even divorced – except by civil law” “My situation was ambiguous” despite a “civil divorce.”
    – Are you defining a new type of relationship ala “relativism relationship” after a civil marriage /civil divorce ?
    WOW !!!! CONGRATULATIONS !!!
    The Relativism Relationship Rationalization Hamster for MEN !!!!
    Sign me up so I can accept “Jesus” in my heart and not follow His commandments or the apostles so when I can be ” raptured” or if I should die first I can go to “heaven”🙂
    SIGN ME UP !!! All this & heaven too !!!! LMAO🙂

    Seriously though – this is for sure. One reaps what they sow. The scriptures dont say much about “sleep”. The most consistent theme is this – ” you are gathered to your people” or simply be around “people just like you”. This is perfect justice.

    Btw, thanks for the entertainment and showing the apostate condition of the Christian evangelical church.
    ~Shalom

  116. BradA says:

    @Ton,

    > I don’t see it either Greyghost, but true believers believers of false ideologies cannot abide anyone who disagrees

    That seems to apply to several who are following the MGTOW ideology here! Those who live in glass houses should watch casting stones it seems.

  117. @ Ecclesiastes
    “We’ll do it your way, but I don’t quite understand how you square these with each other nor with what Paul is saying only 2 chapters later. Obviously in this chapter, Paul means marriage to be whatever the current civil authority says it is – as that civil authority is issuing certificates of divorce and thus also of marriage. I obviously was wrong in assuming that Caesar’s marriages were given no more recognition than his money. I rather thought Paul would have meant God’s preferences of marriage over Caesar’s, but you’re the authority.”

    I have no desire to go over history or Jewish culture (of which you are clearly ignorant of)
    but I will leave you with several scriptures to ponder and you can draw your own conclusion to your own interpretation
    – Matt 7:6, John 18:3, Jude 1:4, 2 Thes 2:9-12
    – You argue like a girl.
    – It is quite obvious you are attempting to justify adultery post divorce. The only difference is it is your ex-wife ( This cannot be denied).

    Btw, I honestly dont think you would want me as neighbor given I have broken cars/trucks in the front yard and a porta potty on the side yard of my doublewide🙂
    ~Shalom

  118. BradA says:

    @greyghost,

    >You still think this is about getting pussy.

    Where did I say that? I said it was about building something for the future, not just seeking your own pleasure in the now. Big difference. Some seek as much sex as they can get. Others seek to play lots of video games (which I would certainly do if they paid well), ride their motorcycles, etc.

    The point is they only look out for themselves, at least that is what they say they do. Christians do not have the right to only look out for themselves anymore. They are called to build the Kingdom of God on the earth, in the way He calls them to do it. (Not Dominion Theology or such foolish ideas either.)

    We are called to “occupy until He comes” and we cannot do that if we are solely looking out for ourselves.

    I would admit that should my wife ever be gone, however that happens, I am not sure what I would do. Older women, even Christian, are not appealing and I effectively have no children to work with, so I am not all that different. I still want to find out what I am supposed to do to go forth and make disciples, not how to play more online games, even though I would probably prefer the latter at this present point in time. My preferences don’t matter though, His do.

    Exactly how are MGTOW and PUAs going forth and making disciples for Jesus? Some of the latter are certainly making disciples, but those kind are not spoken highly of in the Scriptures.

  119. Pingback: More shaming from family.

  120. monster221 says:

    you guys here and your pals dont hold a candle to the ones at the chateau. they give real world info with real world advice on how to handle life to help ME. you guys talk about bubble gum fantasy ideology and bicker back and forth with everyone that disagrees with your viewpoints. very little of value in these parts all you guys do is “dude bitches suck and nobody loves jesus anymore”, “dude i know wtf is the world coming to”. its just a bunch of bitter divorced circle jerks calling females cunts while dalie is perched at the top using his high number of visitors as some sort of mob to help him attack everyone that calls bullshit. i still check up every so often because you guys used to have good content and still do every so often. but these days its post after post quoting some other persons blog either in agreement or attacking them followed by the mindless horde of jackoffs agreeing or bickering amongst themselves about whether jesus was an alpha or just plain bitching about their fucked up lives and their ex wives. arent you guys sick of the muggy, stifling atmosphere you create for yourselves?

  121. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    “- In regards to the church bouncer – I suggest you read 1 Cor 14:24-25.”

    I have no idea how this connects to anything. I know that you advocate removal of undesirables from the congregation for a worship service. Removal requires force. Your church has a bouncer.

    – In regards to the rich having preferred seating – you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you been to a Jewish synagogue ?

    No, I haven’t been to a modern synagogue, but you’re a traditionalist and would favor the practice of Jesus’s time: Mark 12:38-39 for instance. The rich get the best seats, that’s being Jewish, according to Jews. Jesus was a Jew, right?

    “- In regards to marriage – Matt 19:15, Mark 10:7, Eph 5:31-33 (For further insight – see Rom 2)”

    Since you don’t believe in any of that, I’m not sure why you’d suggest I look. I pretty much said that was the situation, that I remained with my wife despite civil proceedings, and you took that for “attempting to justify adultery post divorce.”

    Now, regarding “salvation by faith”, you already know I don’t subscribe to *that*.

    The last time we talked, I attributed to you and honorable profession, an honorable life, and honorable intent – and then I held you to it. You, here, have treated me with disrespect and derision.

    I don’t argue like a girl. I lost. That congregation I thought well of was corrupt. You showed me that. Righteous congregations are by invitation only.

    I am now better informed.

  122. Kate says:

    Stop being a grouch, Ton😉 They are good books to read because they reveal the true nature of woman. Daniel Defoe was the first to do so in fiction. One of the first examples of realism.

  123. Ton says:

    Most men who post here are still fully controlled by the FI. Sure they have all sorts of ways to justify propping up the current system, but it boils down to the same thing, they refuse to leave team woman

  124. Ton says:

    If a man sets his mind to having dominion over the earth, as commanded, he does not need to know much else. Those books mentioned, Kate do nothing for a man. A woman recommending them is enough to know a man should not read them. I read a couple on your list for school, cannot recall a good, masculine role model in them

  125. greyghost says:

    Good observation Ton, on both comments

  126. Ton says:

    Thanks brother

  127. Kate says:

    “Those books mentioned, Kate do nothing for a man.” Well, naturally, I disagree🙂 They do not have male role models to emulate. And that’s not why I suggested them. They expose how and why women are as they are.

    The Scarlet Letter: Good example of what can happen when an older man marries a younger woman he knows is not attracted to him.

    Gone with the Wind: Good example of how a woman will use men for revenge, resources, what happens to headstrong women. They have children afraid of them and lose everything.

    McTeague: What happens when a woman marries a man beneath her. He eventually beats his once cherished wife to death.

    Roxana: How women will use men to get ahead. Even kill.

    Sister Carrie: Again, woman as opportunity. Leaving the beta for the alpha and then when he is no longer alpha leaving him to die homless as she becomes a movies star.

    Lady Chatterly’s Lover: Woman leaves rich injured veteran for man who brings her sexually alive.

    Bridget Jones’ Diary: Essentially rewrites of Jane Austen novels Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion about the modern woman’s dating life.

    There. Now I’ve mentioned the important stuff and you don’t have to read them

  128. handbanana says:

    seems that almost all women who call themselves “anti-feminists” are wolves in sheep’s clothing. but they aren’t doing a very good job of keeping up the disguise.

  129. greyghost says:

    They are women. They may even sincerely be anti feminist. Just the natural nature of being a female gets in the way.

  130. @Ecclesiastes “1 Cor 14:24-25.I have no idea how this connects to anything”
    It called “r_e_m_o_r_s_e” and “g u i l t”
    I suggest reading Acts 2:37 and Mark 1:24 and Acts 16:17-18, Acts 5:3-4 and James 5:16 and Titus 3:10 “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.”
    People dont like to be around others when they are ignored/shunned/cold shoulder /isolated – its a quite uncomfortable situation.
    In addition a ppolite but potent scriptures and Spirit directed words that bring insight makes for a very uncomfortable situation – it will bring to repentance or drive away due to remorse.

    It is quite obvious you havent been around “real” men & women of G_D that are lead righteous, holy, and stern obedient lives to Yahshua and His commandments. Yours words have been hostile and your thinking & reasoning is compartmentalized.

    Btw, you are partially correct on “Righteous congregations are by invitation only”. That is incorrect.
    Anyone that “repents” is “forgiven” of bad behavior and even help is provided depending on the situation.
    However, the condonation / acceptance of bad behavior is unacceptable.
    Anyone “body” that condones bad behavior/sin = tithe / $$$
    “Righteous congregation fellowship/participation is by being righteous/holy/ obedient to Yahshua (Matt 22:12)
    It is quite obvious you havent been around a Jew and unaware of Pauls writing (Gal 3:1 & 2 Cor 3:10 “and his speech contemptible.” )
    ~Shalom

  131. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    I’m calling BS on your oh so generous offer of recognizing the “repentance” of anybody.

    I am to believe that before you is a man you’d consider so vile that you would not condesend to eat with him, but you’d believe his self aggrandizing “repentance”? BS.

    You’re no fool. This reprobate is a con man of the first rank. You’ll need evidence, then testimony, then surveillance, then escrow, then those tithes you just mentioned. The list would go on and on because you’re a smart guy and know that you can never be sure of what is in another man’s heart.

    And why would he go through all that? For your humble company? I don’t think so. You might be a nice guy to somebody in this world, but nobody is that nice a guy.

    Now I, who will sit and eat with just about anybody, would recognize repentance within the limits of the man to repent, but you? Oh hell no. That’s a false hope for anybody who would take you seriously.

    You’re not lying, exactly.

    You’re just politely not mentioning the economic and social benefits of being one of the select.

    Nice pitch. No sale.

  132. abc says:

    I liked manosphere. All those ideas about game make life better. But now it has been invaded by whiny men who got screwed by their wives. Biggest crime of all is now divorce.

    And i dont like all those self-improvement blogs. They are strikingly similar to radfem blogs. All that self-assuring that yess i can do that, im right, others are stupid etc. Sometimes i cant tell the difference between Jezebel(read it for fun) and them.

    Roissy is totally right, use game and enjoy yourself. Why rebuild civilization????

  133. Joe Blow says:

    I still can’t believe that nobody has dropped the quintessential quote about the problem with Nihilism from the Big Lebowski – a quote which explains somewhat tartly why the nihilist path definitely isn’t a solution. Oh well, somebody’s got to do it.

    “Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”
    – Walter Sobchak

  134. greyghost says:

    abc,monster221
    You fellas are good to go. I have no problem with game and you should enjoy yourself. You owe this society nothing.

  135. @Ecclesiastes
    “I’m calling BS on your oh so generous offer of recognizing the “repentance” of anybody.
    I am to believe that before you is a man you’d consider so vile that you would not condesend to eat with him, but you’d believe his self aggrandizing “repentance”?

    Hey dude, I dont think you understand Jewish people and customs (ie Nazarite vow). There are “Christians” that I no longer interact with. They know my moral stance and I know theirs – it makes for poor/uncomfortable meal conversation.
    I have no problem living alone and prefer eating alone. Eating with others can be insightful – but that is very very rare. While theere are plenty of educated people -There are very few people who can actually think and even fewer people with morals.

    One forgives if the other repents. Not forgiving carries SERIOUS consequences and I do mean SERIOUS “But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” ~Matt 6:15
    Forgiveness doesn’t mean give them a hug & a kiss. There are plenty of people I have antipathy for and I do mean plenty. If I see them in need and I can help them – I will help them in addition to pray for them. It is a great way to get rid of the antipathy.
    If you need a example, I forgave my ex-finance when she she said she was sorry. However, the relationship was over and I didn’t want to further purse courting her. Yahshua made it very clear to forgive the women in adultery, however, he didnt say man up and marry her.

    ” you can never be sure of what is in another man’s heart.” – I know the heart is deceitfully wicked and it takes a well disciplined man to curb himself. A man can be measured by his words and actions. In addition, if a person is not spiritually enlightened – all this will be foreign and unknown.

    In regards to finances – G_D is the richest Jew in the universe and He pays for what He orders. Yahshua doesn’t care about money – that is why He let Judas whole stole from it carry it. His entire ministry was done without money and when they did need money He told Peter to go catch a fish and their was money inside. I can personally attest that G_D has met every single need whether it be financial or other.
    You are delusional if you think G_D or men of G_D can be bought or need this worlds goods- very very delusional…

    ~Shalom

  136. locard says:

    OK, can’t help myself. Here is a recent FB blurb from Mark you know who.As if on cue…

    Mark Driscoll

    A guy recently introduced himself and said he took to heart my exhortation in a sermon for single men to not overlook single moms. He introduced me to his fiancée, who teared up talking about how sweet he is to her 8-year-old daughter. I love my “job.”

    Scott Sharman I tried to encourage a single mom of three in my church by saying, “The Lord knows you and has the perfect fellow for you.” She married my son a couple years later! With an “I do” my wife and I added three amazing grandchildren to our family and we could not be any more blessed!

    Like · Reply · 6 · 2 minutes ago..

    Tonya Roman Awesome! As a former single parent, I’d be interested in hearing this sermon. Any idea when it was?

    Like · Reply · 1 · 3 minutes ago..

    Daniel Curry Love your preaching and teaching, Mark, but is anybody else sick of these “I love my ‘job'” posts?

    Like · Reply · 1 · 3 minutes ago via mobile..

    Megan Nielsen Than why don’t you unfollow him, and just follow his other page, Mars Hill Church.

    Like · about a minute ago..

    Joshua Turner Nope. sick of haters though…

    Like · about a minute ago..

    View more replies..

    Write a reply…
    .

    Cassandra Ransleben Love.

    Like · Reply · 3 minutes ago via mobile..

    Megan Nielsen Do you know what sermon it was? I would love to listen to it. As a single mother myself, I totally agree!

    Like · Reply · 3 minutes ago..

    Jessica Rose I remember that sermon

    Like · Reply · 3 minutes ago..

    Tammie Perkins Ain’t God good! Everyone deserves a second chance at love!

  137. Ecclesiastes says:

    @Singer

    What a line of CRAP!

    I happen to know a “Christian Church” that has actually done this, made the applicant get on his knees, repent, and beg for admittance. I attend every once in a while, because it’s the closest I can find to my actual Denomination.

    You know who goes to that “church”? Fornicators! Idolators! Men who covet! Men who rail! Prostitutes! Unwed mothers! Confidence scam Artists! Congenital Liars! The very lowest of the low! Drunks. Addicts.

    They are on their knees, repenting, and begging because they KNOW that if they don’t get in that they are facing insanity and death. They are pleading for their very lives, and only a loving God can save them.

    This “church” has no dues or fees, just a 7th tradition.

    YOU, Michael Singer, are full of SHIT. :-))) <— triple smiley of LOL

    NOBODY does that sort of thing to be amongst "good" people. They feign. They pose. They present and appear. Such contrition as one never sees. Really. I'm serious about that contrition thing.

    What you are selling is access to the community leaders, the mutual back slapping good old boy network in Hebrew. I know it sells too. There are always those looking for what you're offering. They will tell you what you require.

  138. @Ecclesiastes “I happen to know a “Christian Church” – that says it all.
    If you havent figured it out yet – the evangelical “Christian” church is apostate. As you mentioned you have never visited a Messianic / Jewish synagoge.

    Btw, discipleship is a sellers market not a buyers and has few takers. It is a little bit more than “accept Jesus in your heart” or “make a decision” what ever that means both are unscriptural.
    I suggest go back and ask for a refund where ever you have tithed.

    Yahshua had the biggest back door revival in history – this is seen in John 6:60-70. G_D isnt interested in numbers – never has been and never will and always deals with a few chosen.

    I pray may you reap exactly what you sow and discover the truth of cause / effect before it overtakes you and those around you.
    ~Shalom

  139. freebird says:

    what’s with the ‘once warning and twice warning and no more’ talk?

    Christ said 7 times seventy time per day.
    (unlimited)

    The doctrine requires you to tolerate the apostate perpetually,it is your cross to bear.

    Which is why we smooth over the sins of the unwed mother,we’re busy trying to convert her.

    So just as her sin is manifest in the child for a lifetime,so much less is the sin of disagreeing with the fine points of theology perpetually.

    Interesting piece of triva regarding ‘turning the other cheek,’
    It refers to an open hand slap upon the left cheek,a mild non-govermental rebuke/punishment.

    By ‘turning the other cheek’ one demands a hard fist and the imposition of governmental (Roman)law for assault/battery.

    In other words,it is a challenge to be severe enough to invoke one’s human rights (make you recognize I am human) by force of law court.

    It is a demand for escalation and DUE PROCESS.

  140. BC says:

    Here is an interesting post that also applies to traditionalism/civilizationism vs. MGTOW:
    http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2013/05/how-obedient-are-you/

  141. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ecclesiastes

    For the record, I think you’ve acquitted yourself well in this debate. Michael Singer has spoken with the wrong spirit here.

    Luke 18

    9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

    13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

    Who is playing which role gets tricky in these parts because a lot of commentors get offended when you suggest they do as the tax collector; even though they consider themselves disciples of Christ. In this argument it seems to me that you are the tax collector–and even Jesus!–, but Michael Singer is the pharisee.

  142. greyghost says:

    Thank you Cane. You are getting good and more aware. I remember when you first commented here. You sounded a lot like the Pharisees character. You seem much tighter and aware of the reality of being a man on this earth.
    What you described is what is killing the church as a force against the beast that started the manosphere. Too busy showing how righteous and biblical they are. So much so they have abandon Christianity for the feminine imperative and justify the lack of action as saving what is falling apart around them.

  143. @Cane
    As a “Pharisee / legalist” saying that one will reap exactly what they sow:)

    Can you name a single verse in either the OT/NT that says grace/favor nullifies or dismisses or minimizes or subtracts or does away the laws of reaping / sowing or the strict commandments of Yahshua / Apostles ?
    ~Sahlom

  144. Cane Caldo says:

    @Michael Singer

    Of course not, because you’re asking me to provide verses that support some different gospel than the gospel that is actually in scripture. I vacillate between loathing your comments and pitying them, because I can’t tell if you’re obstinate, or sincerely confused. I tend to think it’s mixed; that you are confirmed in your confusion because you give more weight to the parables and admonitions that Christ gives the pharisees than the instruction that He gives to the masses. Understand: He’s trying to get it through the pharisee’s thick heads that their works are not fit enough, and never will be. It’s similar to the tactic that I endorsed in the other thread “Advice to a Woman in Her 30s.”

    Those are the pharisees of today, and I give it to them good and hard because they won’t hear it today whether I give it to them hard or soft, but if I make them mad, then they’ll recall it later. They’ll start off regurgitating in their minds what I wrote here, so that they can build an argument against me. What will happen though is that every time they recall my words–whatever is true will irritate them, and they’ll mull it over and over…

    It’s a sand into pearls method. It works so well because it’s true, not a trick. Even me explaining what I do cannot stop the effect.

    There are numerous verses which say grace transcends the law. That is the gospel. The law does not pass away because it has been fulfilled; not because it is still necessary for us to fulfill it. Understand that a fulfilled law means that all its requirements have been met. Jesus, fulfills the law for all who swear allegiance to Him.

    Said another way: You’re confusing the signs of Christ with the commands of Christ. We can know by a person’s fruit–i.e., if they produce godly works–whether they are of Christ or not. We do not produce Christ (as Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; God is love and if we’ve seen Him we’ve seen the Father, etc.) by those works; which is what you have been preaching.

    Each of us will live in sin until we die because the flesh is sinful; period. That is why we have to die. By death we are saved from an eternity of separation from God. God cuts Adam and Eve and all of us off from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden not as punishment, but so that we have recourse to a new life. We must be reborn. The spirit of those who follow Christ beings the rebirth process while our bodies still live, but the flesh is not reborn until we die. It’s another part of how Christ is Lord over the living and the dead; Lord over not just good, but evil also and therefore able to turn evil to His good purposes.

  145. @ Cane -“There are numerous verses which say grace transcends the law” – I didn’t ask that….
    I’lll try again
    Can you name a single verse in either the OT/NT that says grace/favor nullifies or dismisses or minimizes or subtracts or does away the laws of reaping / sowing or the strict commandments of Yahshua / Apostles ?
    Please please please enlighten me since I am a wretched Jewish Pharisee🙂
    Shalom

  146. Cane Caldo says:

    @Michael Singer

    If anyone is a pharisee, then he isn’t a Jew in any way that matters to God.

    The answer is already right before you, but you don’t have the eyes to see it.

  147. @Cane ”There are numerous verses which say grace transcends the law” – I didn’t ask that….
    I’lll try again.
    Can you name a single verse in either the OT/NT that says grace/favor nullifies or dismisses or minimizes or subtracts or does away the laws of reaping / sowing or the strict commandments of Yahshua / Apostles ?
    Imo, your the Pharisee who puts the commandments of men over the commandments of Yahshua and the apostles as Yahshua mentioned in Mark 7:6-15
    ” You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
    It is quite obvious your arguments are ex-facie (and you argue like a girl with the ad hominems).
    ~Shalom

  148. Joe says:

    @Michael Singer

    One forgives if the other repents. Not forgiving carries SERIOUS consequences and I do mean SERIOUS “But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” ~Matt 6:15

    Wasn’t Jesus referring to the Law with the above quote? However, Romans 10:4 states that Christ is the end of the Law, that everyone who has faith may be justified. Romans 10:9 further states that if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. And Paul makes it quite clear in Phillipians 3:13 where he writes that as the Lord has forgiven you, so you must forgive. It’s no longer the quid pro quo – if we don’t forgive, then the Father won’t forgive us or salvation is conditioned on our forgiving others first. We have been forgiven and the result of our being forgiven, is we forgive others.

    I’ve met individuals who have heard the gospel, but don’t accept it because they believe that it is too easy or simple. That is, they need to do something first.

  149. They have risen to the top of their respective brackets. Can you imagine if we can get these two leagues to intersect?

    Brrriiiing iiiit!

    Zippy vs. Singer

    Cage Match

    Come on, you know its a bandwidth buster……

  150. @Joe ” you will be saved” -per Rom 10:9 Is that de facto or de jure ?
    Being saved / shall be saved doesn’t mean one is – you are correct in stating they need to do something. I suggest going back and reading what John the Baptist, Yashshua, and the Apostles preached (ie repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin).

    Btw, the book of Romans was written to Jews who were transitioning from the Law of Moses to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Yahshua (one is always under G_DS law – ALWAYS- either a slave to righteous/eternal life or a slave to sin/death).

    Yes – Deliverance/ salvation is very very conditional and a contract – one has to “show some class” and do what Yahshua and the Apostles said (ie De Facto) and the prophets “till the day dawns and the morning star rises in your heart”

    By the way here is some more NT scripture that supports “they continually need to do something” or better put “salvation / deliverance from sin ” is a process and one has to endure to the end (it is past, present, and future)

    Matthew 10:22, Matthew 19:25 Matthew 24:13 Matthew 24:22 Mark 10:26 Mark 13:13 Mark 13:20 Mark 16:16 Luke 1:71 Luke 8:12 Luke 18:26 John 3:17 John 5:34 John 10:9 Acts 2:21
    Acts 2:47 Acts 4:12 Acts 11:14 Acts 15:1 Acts 15:11 Acts 16:30-31 Acts 27:20 Acts 27:31 Romans 5:9-10 Romans 10:9 Romans 10:13Romans 11:26 1 Corinthians 1:18 1 Corinthians 3:15 1 Corinthians 5:5 1 Corinthians 10:33 1 Corinthians 15:2 2 Corinthians 2:15 1 Thessalonians 2:16 2 Thessalonians 2:10 2 Thessalonians 2:13 1 Timothy 2:4 1 Timothy 2:15

    For those who say “as long we are in the world / flesh we have to sin”.
    Please show chapter / verse.
    Pau/Yahshua/ Apostles l address this in so many scriptures it is amazing that is has gone unnoticed (Rom 6:2, 1 John 3:4-10 and a HUGE many others).

    Allow me to suggest reading Rev 2 & 3 and the rewards to those who overcome (it isnt a mansion in heaven:)
    ~Shalom

  151. Ton says:

    The debate would carry more weight if it was an MMA match. Otherwise it’s just words, words words, full of sound and furry, signifying nothing

  152. Kate says:

    It is always about hamsters with you Manosphere types. “sound and furry”? For misquoting him, Shakespeare says: “Faulk you.” 😉

  153. Novaseeker says:

    Outcast just resurrected a great old post by Anonymous Age 71 (who used to post as Irlandes) here: http://outcastsuperstar.blogspot.com/2013/05/why-mens-groups-fail.html

    It explains pretty well the problem of MRA, from the perspective of a LONG time engaged MRA. And it’s prescient, because many of the things he talks about are exactly what we see happening in the manosphere as well. Plus ca change, and all that, indeed.

  154. Ton says:

    Well played Kate

  155. Those Faulkers were Messerschmidts

  156. MRA & Anti-feminism exploding on youtube …

    This WHY women get no respect & most women are whores & prostitutes, leeching off mens accomplishments & exploiting mens accomplishments, via acting & exposing themselves as prostitutes & whores

    Feminists whine about sexual objectification, to raise the value of their vaginas

    Feminists whine about sexual objectification, to cover up the fact, they only bring tits, cleavage & ass & their vagina’s to exploit mens accomplishments, instead of creativity & innovativeness

    Sexual objectification, covers up their parasitism & their exploitation of men by baring their cleaving, tits & ass, instead of contributing to society …

    This is a pattern women use through out society

    Its sexism if you point out women as a whole are all about covering up exploiting & parasiting off men

    Feminism is essentially a movement of parasiting & exploiting & destroying men, women have conspired for centuries to not allow mens rights …

  157. greyghost says:

    BradA
    Back to the question at the heart of the conversation. This is from Brada….
    “Exactly how are MGTOW and PUAs going forth and making disciples for Jesus? Some of the latter are certainly making disciples, but those kind are not spoken highly of in the Scriptures.”

    Ever heard of the phrase “There are no atheist in foxholes”? Something about artillery barrages and sniper and machine gun fire that gets people in awareness of god. Now with that understanding (mine at least) How in the hell are you going to bring women to Christ licking their fucking holes all of the time. especially in the name of god saving civilization. No matter what some cunt says or does men must do their duty for god and civilization. now you have two people walking away from Christ. One because she doesn’t need god (hell you through churchian supplication tell her god needs her) The other because he sees through it The churchians have declared single moms as heroic. That is todays civilization.
    MGTOW,PUA are the warriors that will provide the worldly reason to come to god. And besides that a Christian man with “game’ A blue pill churchian learns game he can’t help but be Christian. The man can pull ass and knows those sluts are worthless sees a “nice” girl and can use the “devil’s” power the PUA to control her hypergamy and takes her off the sexual market with a family. Or we make him a supplicating churchian she is not attracted to and she starts fucking the alpha stud that is just in it for the pussy. When he is done with her I guess the churchian supplicant can have her so she can divorce him for one last ride on the carousel. ( that is what we have now and why there is a manosphere in the first place)
    Basically I like artillery barrages. (Suffering for bad choices is a very good and godly thing) Read your bible, God loves to see people get there asses kicked ( see the sin of niceness churchian man)

  158. BradA says:

    @greyghost,

    So everything is fine and wonderful because they will repent later? I prefer not to give the forces of evil the dominance encouraging that way of lifestyle does. You did not address me issue. They are still not living for the Lord, but for themselves. The Book of Judges shows the success of a lifestyle of “doing what is right in your own eyes.”

    > now you have two people walking away from Christ.

    If hardship was guaranteed to bring people to God, the tribulation time noted in Revelation would have noted mass conversions. Instead we see mass cursing of God. Some do repent in tribulation and I certainly agree an individual needs to see a reason to seek God, but civilization’s collapse is not the best route to that in most cases.

    Doing sin or encouraging it in others is not the best route to righteousness, as I have already noted.

    You are very much in error if you think I preach a supplicating Gospel. I do preach one (when the opportunity comes up) that is very heavy on grace and forgiveness, for that is what the term really means. This does not mean life is completely without consequences though. God can completely forgive and cleanse the individual, but their life will almost certainly be impacted by what they have done. Some “crop failures” happen, but most of us reap what we have sown in this life.

    Live a life sowing to the flesh and you will reap corruption from that very same flesh, whether you are male or female.

  159. Random Angeleno says:

    Michael Singer appears to be a modern day pharisee. especially because he cannot see it. We are all tax collectors at heart. Singer is not excepted from this though he thinks so in his own heart.

    Yes there are no atheists in foxholes. Which is why single mothers return to churches in the first place, hoping to ameliorate the consequences of their poor choices in life. They’re believing in the wrong kind of worship of God, but that doesn’t make them the atheists they used to be. Somewhere along the line, we hope that enough younger people see the poor examples set by these single moms even as we forgive them.

  160. @Random Angelo – a modern day pharisee🙂 LOL
    Is a Pharisee is one who puts the traditions of men above the Torah of G_D or one as one who follows the commandments of Yahshua and the Apostles ?

    Am I a Pharisee for saying one will reap EXACTLY what they sow and stating asking a very simple question that no one has answered ?

    Where does it say that grace/favor nullifies or dismisses or minimizes or subtracts or does away the laws of reaping / sowing or the strict commandments of Yahshua / Apostles ?

    If a Pharisee is defined as one who follows the commandments of Yahshua and the Apostles – then so I am as did Paul in Acts 23:6
    “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.”

    Your ad hominem and lack of a answer says it all.

  161. greyghost says:

    BradA
    Looks like we are getting somewhere.
    So everything is fine and wonderful because they will repent later?

    Nope they are going to suffer as they should. Make sure you don’t stand in the way of that suffering in the name of civilization.
    “They are still not living for the Lord, but for themselves.”
    So what ,they are selfishly living Christian lives. (damn them cunts) Don’t worry about it let them enjoy it and enrich it with faith. (study game women do everything out of selfish gain even Christian women, they are women).

    Doing sin or encouraging it in others is not the best route to righteousness, as I have already noted.

    This is a military action bringing a shift in the culture. It is not the best but the only route we have based on the laws we live by. Deny this and using the cover of righteousness.

    but civilization’s collapse is not the best route to that in most cases.

    Best thing that can happen. Have faith. The civilization you seem so concerned with has a 40 percent of all children born out of wedlock. Take a look at marriage and divorce and see what happens to men that marry. Then take a look at old divorced women and see what you find. The very things you speak about are encouraging this trend.

    This does not mean life is completely without consequences though. God can completely forgive and cleanse the individual, but their life will almost certainly be impacted by what they have done

    This is something that cannot be said enough.

    Overall The civilization will fall around you following the path you have taken. Take a look at this and see if you can put this in your preaching. Don’t get all stupid about it. You must learn female nature to understand the laws as they are written and how it fits into the bible. You will not turn into a player out here fucking all the bitches. But I will say you do give a damn that is why you are here. Take a look at this and try to quantify why it works so well using biblical scripture. http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/dread/ One thing about the bible human psychology is written in the bible. If you were to study game for at least a couple of hours a day and put the ideas into your church and bible studies you will find a fired up and motivated church with an increase in weddings and saved marriages. First thing is to stop following the female imperative. Have faith

  162. BradA says:

    Hard to read my comments from yours there. I still cannot accept glorying in unrighteousness, no matter who performs it, male or female. Both are wrong and should be opposed by the committed Christian.

  163. greyghost says:

    Yes you are right just as murder is a sin we have vast armies to defend our nation and police who periodically shoot a person deemed as bad. I wouldn’t expect you to be a PUA but do learn game. Spend some time learning the red pill sexual nature of women. You will find it is the nature of women. Incorporate it into your reading of the bible and see what you learn and most importantly what you can teach to a new Christian man to make him desirable and strong in character.
    gotta go to work

  164. BradA says:

    You think I don’t know any of that? I am sure I am not the best practitioner, but my wife could vouch that we have been walking through a lot of these things over the course of the last year or more. It ends up fitting well with my own bullheadedness, but I clearly know the fallen nature of women just as much as I know the fallen nature of men. Either can be quite the challenge.

    Making yourself be a godly man is not easy, whether married or not. That is our call in Christ though, so it doesn’t matter how easy it is.

  165. hendrick says:

    To those of you who keep slamming MGTOW.

    If any of you know of any women who want to be wives and mothers more than they want to be whores and career women, let me know. If you know any women who take God and the Bible more seriously than their college professor, please let me know.

    If you know any women who are Virgins and also want their husband too be one, let me know.

    You all obviously know soooo many women like this, so please stop holding out on me, and hook a brother up.

    I really am serious…..waiting for your reply.

  166. Ton says:

    I’m done with everyone and every organization that wants to feed more men into the masculine meatgrinder of modern marriage. Those who keep banging the get married, save civilization drum are either ignorant or hateful enough to ignore reality

  167. Martian Bachelor says:

    “The boons of civilization are so noisily cried up by sentimentalists that we are all apt to overlook it’s disadvantages. Intrinsically, it is a mere device for regimenting men. Its perfect symbol is the goose-step. The most civilized man is simply that man who has been most successful in caging and harnessing his honest and natural instincts –that is, the man who has done most cruel violence to his own ego in the interest of the commonweal. The value of this is always overestimated. What is it at bottom? Simply the greatest good to the greatest number — of petty rogues, ignoramuses and poltroons.”
    – H.L. Mencken

  168. BradA says:

    @hendrick.

    I am married to one, though she is not available. Tough to find today, though it also is highly likely to require a lot of work on your part. I think Dalrock has some posts on this topic. I know he had a good one about interviewing prospective candidates.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/09/interviewing-a-perspective-wife-part-i-should-you-open-a-position/
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/interviewing-a-prospective-wife-part-ii/

    I am sure I could make this prettier, but present is better than not at all.

  169. Pingback: Testosterone Link fest- Become filled with TESTOSTERONE | About Lifting

  170. Oblivion says:

    Can’t we all agree that the divorce laws should be changed? Can’t we all agree that a man shouldn’t have to perform on the flying trapeez without a net? As it is today, women no longer marry men; they marry the state. Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why a society would spend so much time degrading a gender and then expect them to carry the weight of responsibility at the same time? There are only a relative few men left in this society that grew up in a two family home, and I am lucky enough to be among them. Until the family courts are changed, the balence of the family unit will remain unstable. It is up to us as men to change it. All groups need to come to some kind of a sane unifying reason. I believe that changing the family courts should be the cause and banner that we raise. For too long we as men have taken societys sickness laying down. Its time for all of us to look in the same direction and as one voice save society for our kids and grandkids. (if you dont want kids please help for the rest of us)

    this is my two cents, Ive been reading alot of these blogs and i finally wanted to contribute to the cause in a meaningful way.

    Please read what i wrote again.

  171. greyghost says:

    Oblivion
    Involuntary Childless Spinsterhood would be a start on changing the law.

  172. Pingback: Links and Comments #11 | The Society of Phineas

  173. Ton says:

    No it won’t Greyghost. Women will not put 2 &2 together

  174. Women dont deserve to put 2&2 together

    Women have to pay for the 90 million infants they murdered & butchered in the last 5 years

    The holocaust & genocide, labelled as womens right to murder & kill unborn infants …

    This is what traditionalists & christians dont understand

    All women deserve Involuntary Childless Spinsterhood, they dont deserve a family & they must be made to suffer by the pain of their barren wombs …

    These women must be denied children at all costs

    Whether you realise it or not, we’re living in a 3rd generation wave of Nazism & genocide

    Our corporations & universities are filled with child murdering eugenecists …

    Look around you, look at the laws, we’re living in a 3rd wave Nazi Germany

    The U.S military are Nazi’s pure & simple

    The U.S & Europe is Nazi Germany

  175. Oblivion & Ton is 100 % correct.
    Men / fathers efforts have be fragmented, defensive, and ill equipped regarding this (ie too busy making a living/paying the bills).
    For this to happen – ALL men need to participate This includes existing men / with intact families who know the value of what they are defending.
    They have more to lose than us those without.
    ~Shalom

  176. greyghost says:

    Ton.
    That’s ok. It is just a small part. It is going to be a combined arms kind of thing. MGTOW is happening on its own. Most effective cause of MGTOW is divorce with men actually seeing where they stand in law. The blue pill ignorance needs for men to believe that constitutional rule of law bull shit. Most men believe that and that is where the shock comes from and they realize there is no constitution in practice it is all PC. The only reason when women want divorce the man isn’t just taken away and killed is they want to draw wealth from the guy and they want to keep the illusion of rule of law for the next chump. the desire to appear to be a good person is the only check on female behavior. (that is why they have the slut walks they are trying to remove even those checks)
    First thing the MRA needs is an R&D department to develop the weapon of mass destruction …..The male birth control pill. next we continue to tell the truth about the nature of women at all times. Remove all delusions of the princess (my son 7 was told be me he never has to allow a girl to hit him or abuse him in any way) Men are learning BTW my daughter 12 told of a teacher at school say that he doesn’t play that never hit a girl game either. She told him “my dad says that” The reason for telling my daughter that is the easiest way to see my daughter killed or beaten by her boyfriend or husband is for her to hit him. Self interest comes naturally for women, having them always think a man will never kick their ass no matter what is stupid. Now my daughter is on the way to being less of a DV victim with empowerment based on her behavior and not some guy afraid of the law. Off topic some what but an idea of what the truth looks like. Taught my daughter a valuable lesson and never violated the principle of women’s selfish nature ( I have enough sense to know my daughter is a human female)
    next are the grunts, MGTOW and the PUA. These are the guys that are the consequences of bad choices by all. From the government and the laws of misandry to women themselves. These are the guys the cock carousellers are riding and the guys that refuse the used up 30 year old hole when the players kick em off the carousel for being too fat and old. Any women in this place was a piece of shit and unworthy any way so no real loss a male birth control pill will help control the deceit she can do. At about that time she will get pregnant by a player or will find a blue pill chump. A male pill even for a blue pill responsible mangina will make him as powerful as the most scheming player. Takes a lot of training and mind set to be a PUA. But as the musket did for the peasant making him as deadly as the trained noble man archer a male pill will do for the chump. Once again not violating human nature tell him he is being responsible and protecting the girl from unwanted pregnancy and at the same time he doesn’t have to violate his mangina need to turn her down for the sex she wants. (that is leadership right there fellas) The MGTOW and the PUA will get the bitch into her forties unmarried or at least childless will no man on the hook to directly make payments to her. She has to work to eat. And too old and infertile to get knocked up.
    The Manginas and white knights have a roll. They are the decoys. The target drones for the beast. These are the guys falsely arrested for rape, paying child support, and are fleeced in divorce court They get to share half of their retirement and they also are the ones maintaining civilization ha ha ha . Most importantly they will be the red pill training aid and proof concepts for the manosphere men that are the trainers and teachers for red pill traditional Christian men, MGTOW, PUA .
    RED PILL Christian men (not the blue pill churchian POS we have here today) Dalrock is an example and the activist types are the ones that show the way for the bitches that feminism out of their wicked selfishness (women don’t have natural virtue and love they have gina tingle derived behavior that will be seen and felt as such, good enough) These guys will introduce the removal of the laws of misandry. Women won’t remove laws of misandry it is against the nature of women to do something like that. But they will sit aside while men do it. The last law will be an end to women voting period. They will also as all men should remove chivalry from the culture from women and make it some a woman enjoys for good behavior. The only women that should matter to any man is a woman he likes fucking or his daughters and family al others get the move bitch your in the way of me pleasing the lord.
    Overall Ton this is an idea and plan of action I have been thinking about and how the various men play a role in this. The end game is the law. Once we are back to the rule of law as written in the constitution that is the best it will get. Men will always live in toil and sweat as god intended. As long as we put god ahead of women we will be rewarded for that toil of marriage. Man is pleasing to god and indifferent to pleasing women all are pleased. Only a red pill asshole Christian man can say that a churchian can’t because he would be a liar based pussy supplication alone.

    This is happening on its own any way. but will never come out clean on the other side due to as things get worse violence kicks in. If it is done on purpose by civilized men it can be done with out a civil war being fought by blue pillers fighting over the resources to further feed the feminist beast. Which will be the government cracking down harder on men to the point of openly killing men in the name of women’s rights (happiness)
    A bit long Ton but I think this is a big deal and Dalrock and others are a big part MGTOW,PUA and all. I’m Married with 3 kids and I feel I’m apart of this war.

  177. Ton says:

    Agreed brother Greyghost, combined arms approach is a spot on description, and I agree with your entire post.

    Those who do the marriage is good, women are worth it, get married and save the West are not on our side. However the other groups, MRA, PUA, MGTOW etc will all put pressure on a broken system, all in their own way looking to deal with the same problems in which ever way their disposition and talents lead them

    once again, great post & I did the same thing with my son & daughter. Good luck and God bless you and yours

  178. an observer says:

    There are only a relative few men left in this society that grew up in a two family home

    A necessary but not sufficient precursor. Nofault divorce has become so common that the outcome of the feminised family courts is well known to all women.

    Wives use this information to bring their husbands to heel:
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/04/14/threatpoint/

    The wife always has this as backup: do as i want, or be butthexted.

    How many Thomas Ball type incidents will there be? How long until that anger is directed squarely at those responsible?

  179. Cloud says:

    Off Topic,

    A new video that goes after The Young Turks: “The Young Misandrists.”

  180. Martian Bachelor says:

    Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why a society would spend so much time degrading a gender and then expect them to carry the weight of responsibility at the same time? (Oblivion – emphasis mine)

    Good point. I often feel like a character who has stepped into the novel Atlas Shrugged around here.

    It is up to us as men to _______ [save/carry the whole freakin’ world. basically] (Oblivion)

    Was that your head which just exploded?

    You probably don’t realize it, but you just answered your own question: degrade men and it appears they just try to prove their worthiness and usefulness even more to the system which degrades them. IOW, it works, so far as society is concerned.

  181. Höllenhund says:

    Cloud,

    TYT has occasionally done reports about outrageous examples of divorce rape and chilimony, but yes, otherwise they’re usually the run-of-the-mill feminists you see elsewhere in the mainstream media. One thing in general that I noticed about the media is that there are observers who give correct insight into a lot of social issues but they are complete morons when it comes to male-female relations. I’ve once seen some contributor on cracked.com write that men want to force women out of the workplace. How idiotic can one get, really? I can’t tell if they actually believe all that BS or just want to avoid negative feedback from the feminist power structure.

  182. Do children trump women, or do women trump children?

    Do children have the RIGHT to live with their father FULL time?

    Proof that white knights are not really interested in defending the (truely) innocent. They are selfish, and just trying to get laid.

    White knights HATE Children!

  183. Anonymous age 71 says:

    Thanks, Novaseeker, for the renewal of something I wrote a long time ago. Nothing has changed.

    Some time ago, I wrote on a manosphere discussion of female beauty failing with age, that girls are at their prettiest, their nicest, their sweetest, their most attractive, in physical beauty and personality at age 15, and it is all downhill from there.

    Immediately, a strange MRA imitation of a White Knight attacked me. Pervert. Pedophile. (Pedophile is very clearly a sexual attraction for pre-pubescent children, not sexually mature 15 year old girls. Sigh.) He had his feminist catechism memorized perfectly.

    I was reminded of the old woman in DANDELION WINE, Bradbury’s novel. The children saw a picture of her as a child, and asked who that lovely child was. She said it was her years ago. The children threw such a fuss that she finally admitted it was someone else, that she had always been an old, dried up woman.

    Just so, messed up White Knights imagine that I was always an old man. And, that I did not form my opinion of 15 year old sweeties back in 1957 when I was also 15 years old. Nope, that could not be. If by some magic, I had once been 15 years old, I just naturally could not remember it when I am 70 years old. Therefore I must be some sort of pervert-pedophile to even notice 15 year old girls.

    He also seemed to miss the part where I said it is all downhill from 15. By the time those sweet 15’s and never been kissed were 18, 1960 or so, they had mostly turned mean as junk yard dogs. Which is the real reason, outside of prison, why one does not mess around with 15 year old girls. They are going to change and change very fast. And, you don’t want to be married to them when they do change.

    But, my point was men are nasty to men at every opportunity. The attack must go on. How else can I feel superior without to other men without actually achieving anything?

  184. Pingback: The Meaning of the Recent MGTOW Dust-Up for the Manosphere At Large

  185. @ Anonymous age 71 – awesome insight !
    Btw, off topic question
    Any ideas why has the term “confirmed bachelor” fallen out and replaced with MGTOW ?

  186. Kaehu says:

    Now HERE’s a woman who’s REALLY out to get her husband (setting him up for an arrest for trying to kill the President–when she actually did it):

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/07/justice/ricin-letters-arrest/index.html?c=homepage-t

    The photos pretty much say it all, I’d never turn my back on a woman that looked like that.

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