Did the last decade prove that gay marriage isn’t really a problem?

Ross Douthat with the New York Times notes that David Frum has changed his position on gay marriage after concluding:

If people like me had been right, we should have seen the American family become radically more unstable over the subsequent decade and a half.

By the numbers, in fact, the 2000s were the least bad decade for American family stability since the fabled 1950s.

Douthat isn’t convinced, and today wrote a post asking What Was the Family’s “Least Bad Decade”?  In his post he points out several problems with Frum’s assertions, including a link to my post back in July of last year where I pointed out that the previously accepted decline in divorce rates was brought into question by newer more complete data from the American Community Survey (ACS). Since then The Marriage Project has also adopted the ACS data.

See Douthat’s full post on the NY Times website using the link above.  I left a comment there but at the moment it is in moderation:

———————– Comment ———————–

Thank you for the link. I don’t know if you noticed but The Marriage Project did end up using the ACS divorce rate data in their latest report (fig 5, P70). Since they use collated state data (with missing states) for previous years it makes it appear that divorce rates went up between 2000 and 2011. However, I’m not sure we can really infer that since as the note below the chart points out the two data sources aren’t compatable.

Either way, out of wedlock birth rates steadily climbed during the last decade (see Fig 1 NCHS Data Brief No. 18 May 2009). Similarly, “ever married” rates dropped dramatically for women in their 20s and 30s. It is hard to tell if this is an overall decline in marriage rates, or simply a postponement of marriage (cutting child bearing years very close). My own interpretation of the data is that women are intending to postpone marriage to their 30s but are finding it very difficult to marry once they get there. I went through this data in my post: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/more-grim-news-for-carousellers-hoping-to-jump-at-the-last-minute/

This entry was posted in Child Custody, Data, Divorce, Marriage, New York Times. Bookmark the permalink.

159 Responses to Did the last decade prove that gay marriage isn’t really a problem?

  1. Ill try to find it, but I just read an article citing statistics of kids raised in lesbian and homosexual households and compares them to those raised in straight households (not going to say traditional, as I’m sure you’d see even more of a difference in traditional gender role families). It lists that those coming from same sex families are more likely to be physivally, emotionally, or sexually abused.

    I’ll search for it and come back.

  2. Stingray says:

    Wow, Congratulations Dalrock.

  3. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    I think that David Frum might be noticing that
    because there have been so many divorces
    and because less and less people are marrying
    there are less marriages that end in divorce

    This would be akin to noting that in an empty pool
    there is less daily water evaporation
    and then concluding
    that water is no longer evaporating!

    As Frum is a neocon, as things get less conservative, they naturally improve.

  4. Found it. Hat tip to Free Northerner for including the original post in his Wednesday links

    “23% of now-grown children of families with a lesbian mother said ‘yes’ to “Ever touched sexually by parent/adult“, versus 6% of those of families with a gay father and only 2% of those now-grown children from traditional mom-dad, Ozzie-Harriet families.

    31% of now-grown children of families with a lesbian mother said ‘yes’ to “Ever forced to have sex against will“, versus 25% of those of families with a gay father and only 8% of those now-grown children from traditional mom-dad families.

    12% of now-grown children of families with a lesbian mother said ‘yes’ to “Thought recently about suicide“, versus 24% of those of families with a gay father and only 5% of those now-grown children from traditional mom-dad families.

    And perhaps the worst of all (to Regenrus’s career prospects) only 61% of now-grown children of families with a lesbian mother said ‘yes’ to “Identifies as entirely heterosexual“, versus 71% of those of families with a gay father and with a full 90% of those now-grown children from traditional mom-dad families. So much for theories that acculturation plays no role!”

    http://borepatch.blogspot.ca/2013/03/remember-youre-not-allowed-to-ask.html?m=1

  5. So. It is both life ruining and self perpetuating. Draw what conclusions and warnings from the study as you will. Havent had time to read anything other than the excerpts in the blog post, but I will be doing so later today. The current mad push for gay marriage on facebook is maddening in its mindlessness (just posted a pic that particularly frustrated me to blog of statue of liberty making out with justice infront of the equality sign), but due to working in the liberal world of theatre, I have to extremely clear and in control of my facts before I even think of saying anything.

  6. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    Hey Dalrock–Congrats!!!!

    lzozozozozoz🙂

  7. Elspeth says:

    Congratulations Dalrock. You do an excellent job parsing the stats and deserve recognition for being ahead of the curve.

  8. Solomon says:

    Leap of a Beta- can you cite the source/ post a link to that data?

    thank you

  9. Höllenhund says:

    I bet we’ll see more than one female trolls in the future who’ve found this blog via the NYT.

  10. DerHahn says:

    Marriage has been the new ‘going steady’ for years..

  11. @ Solomon
    You have to click through a few links to get it, but I think this one should go directly to the pdf of the study. If not, I apologize. I’m posting and reading mostly by phone this week while my computer is being repaired

    http://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/Regnerus.pdf

  12. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    How easily
    and simply
    and quickly
    the West fell
    all for
    a few
    buttzhztztzthzizeualz
    fiat dollarz
    more

    lzozlzozlzozlzolozzlz

  13. A Northern Observer says:

    A chart from the Washington Times on the results of kids raised by lesbian mothers:

  14. Miserman says:

    It is missing the boat completely to argue that legalized gay marriage will somehow result in a destruction of marriage as an institution. Rather, “gay marriage” (which is an oxymoron in my ears) is a symptom of a problem that has been around for a long time. Divorce and delayed marriage, especially among women in this feminist age, is the corrosive force undermining marriage.

  15. shinzaemon says:

    Congrats, Dalrock!

  16. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    “It is missing the boat completely to argue that legalized gay marriage will somehow result in a destruction of marriage as an institution. Rather, “gay marriage” (which is an oxymoron in my ears) is a symptom of a problem that has been around for a long time. Divorce and delayed marriage, especially among women in this feminist age, is the corrosive force undermining marriage.”

    Yes! Marriage, as Biblically defined, was already pretty much long gone, which is the way they want it. 🙂

    In his Principles of Communism, Friedrich Engels clarifies,
    “— 21 —
    What will be the influence of communist society on the family?

    It will transform the relations between the sexes into a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene. It can do this since it does away with private property and educates children on a communal basis, and in this way removes the two bases of traditional marriage – the dependence rooted in private property, of the women on the man, and of the children on the parents.

    And here is the answer to the outcry of the highly moral philistines against the “community of women”. Community of women is a condition which belongs entirely to bourgeois society and which today finds its complete expression in prostitution. But prostitution is based on private property and falls with it. Thus, communist society, instead of introducing community of women, in fact abolishes it. ”

    lzozozzlzozooozolzozozo

    “In The German Ideology and later in the The Communist Manifesto, Karl Marx proposed the abolition of the family. In Germany, the family was considered the basic unit of society. But in the The Communist Manifesto, Marx stated that the foundation of the bourgeois family was based on capital and on private gain and its completely developed form that family existed only among the bourgeoisie. The abolition of the family as the basic unit of society would off course, hastens the disintegration of the German middle class. Marx also wrote in The German Ideology that “the Communist materialist sees the necessity… of a transformation both of industry and of the social structure.” In the The Communist Manifesto, he wrote: the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation…Karl Marx’s belief that the patriarchal family was the root cause of slavery led to his interest in matriarchy. This belief would eventually lead to a war against the patriarchal family in America which fueled the Feminist Revolution and the transformation of the social structure there by the proletarians of another kind.” from: http://arcofcc.freeservers.com/Documents/karlmarx.html, Karl Marx’s American Triumph: Climax of Revolutionary Warfare By the Forces of Transformational Marxism by Raymond V. Raehn

    lzoozzoozzoozlzozozzzozzozoz

    “The family is the test of freedom; because the family is the only thing that the free man makes for himself and by himself.”–G. K. CHESTERTON, Fancies Versus Fad

    “I lzozozzlzoozzlozlzlzlzlzo that I may not weep.” –GBFM zlzozzlozoz

  17. Dr. Eric Stratton says:

    What’s going on with GBFM? Are you drunk? Being held prisoner by Bernanke?

    If you’re in trouble, give us three lzololzs and we’ll mobilize the cavalry.

  18. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    zlzoozozzozoozozozoz thankzz you dr. eric stratatatonnzznznz

    i had lost my riatnzlozlzozozoz ritanizizilzlzozll presicisiptioinz

    BUT NOW i found it and i took my riritalaozlzozzozolzozzlzzozoz

    and it makes me go zlozzlozlzozollzlozoz
    zzlzlzozolzoz zommg zlzozloozozozozolzlzozozozz all dayz longzzz

    what is da tsory of da gbfm?

    lozozzoz when i was in third gradezz i axsked my teacher, “what is da federal resevre?”

    she sent me to da princicple!

    so i asked him, “is it federal? is it a governemnt entity? is it a reserve? does it actaully have any moneyz or does it just create debts an dbruened da eoplz taxpayer with them lzozzlzoz?”

    he sent me to the uspeirnetdenient

    so i asked himz “what gives them the moreal authorty to crate out of thin air that whihc i must labor for, and give it to tehir firendz to deocnstruct westetern civilzizioaatonz?”

    he send me to the chool nurse who prescievedbed me ritalaizinz and addeoeorloozlzozl lotass pillz lzozlzl for asking stooooopid quetsuzonzznz znzozlololzo

    so i aske dteh nurse, “how is it that the cenrtal bank can create debt out of thin air and den cgahagr inetrest on it funding wars and fmeinsisnzmz and bostionrtoonz? and aborititonz? and why do christians never speak out agianst abortion, nor sosodomy, nor the detah of marriage and fatherhood? Why do chcistians instead kneel down before game, as if moisisntening buttcocked womenz’ gina walls is the greatest glory higher dan chirst ieven? lzozlzlozoozo?”

    and the school nurse injected me with a ritalin addeorlloololzolzoz cocktail

    and it felt good goodd godod and made me go lzozozozlzozlzl all dayz longz zlzlzlzoozlz

    and ever since den

    i talked like thiss and shsook and shaked when i typex d zlllzozlzozl as i get eixicieted dat i see and hear and see thingsz that noboy else see nor hears

    for tehy are of little fiath lzozlloz

    but jesus jeusus he saves me
    and tellz me dat while the gamerz win on erth in moisuienetig da ssoccked buttcoked women’z gina wallsz with tehir lies and decpetions and degradgations
    christ tells me dat my ideas win
    in his kingdom of ideealz idealz

    and dat is da story of da GBFM

    since yu akeskekd lzozozlozz

    have a niczozoe day!! lzozlzolzoz

    i am with oyuyo alwlaolzlzlzozlzzlzooaalayayzzlozzlozzlzo

    me and ross douthathyt douthahatzlzozlzzozzlzassahatzasshatlzozlzozlzozzlzozlzo

  19. Dr. Eric Stratton says:

    Whew, I was getting nervous.

  20. Tetse says:

    The new marriage defies common sense. It suggests that we, in our moral superiority are not bound by human tradition and human experience.
    http://stuartschneiderman.blogspot.com/

  21. Dalrock says:

    Thanks for all of the congratulations.

    I’m also glad to see that GBFM is ok. His childhood story always moves me.

  22. Dal, if you like that, you’re gonna love this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/25/opinion/frum-real-marriage-issue/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

    Apparently Frum has been a busy boy if I’m getting these links in my Twitter feed.

  23. Pingback: The Knowledge is Spreading ~ II | On the Rock

  24. @ Leap of a Beta

    Yes, I recall that study. It was supervised by a guy named Mark Regnerus. Gay activists spent a week without sleep desperately tearing through it trying to refute it. ThinkProgress and other liberal bastions have declared it discredited despite U of T at Austin conducting a rigorous internal investigation and standing behind it.

    A particularly enraged homosexual named Scott Rose spent a solid couple weeks e-stalking Regnerus and hounding U of T until they conducted the investigation. I talked a bit about that in my post yesterday. Suffice to say any statistics that don’t confirm the cultural marxist agenda get the entire armament of the academic order aimed at it with intent to eviscerate.

  25. Looking Glass says:

    @Miserman:

    I believe it’s Stanley Kurtz that’s the authority on it, but “gay marriage” is a coup de grace to traditional family formation in society that previously had it. Or a capstone, pick your word.

    At least, hopefully, the smart play will eventually happen: end State sanctioned marriage. It’ll be one royal mess, but what does exist of the TradCons will hopefully go that way. It’d solve a whole lot of problems with the current system anyway.

  26. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    lzozozooz
    it took 5,000 years of moses and genesiszz
    and 2,000 yearz of jesus coming to fulfill da law
    and a couple days to abolish itz
    zlzzozozoozlzozozozozozozozlozz

  27. @ Karamozov

    Interesting. After I’m done reading the original study ill read the links you put in your post to its attacks and defense.

  28. Johnycomelately says:

    Congrats for the recognition, you have certainly been doing yeomans work with the stats.

    The Chinese have their ‘left over women’ the Japenese have their ‘loser dogs’ and African Americans have their ‘black swans’, its not difficult to see how this is going to pan out.

    Given that ‘ever married’ stats are based on past marriage patterns that do not exist today it is not unreasonable to assume that a significant block of women will remain unmarried past their fertility limits.

  29. anonymous says:

    the smart play will eventually happen: end State sanctioned marriage. It’ll be one royal mess, but what does exist of the TradCons will hopefully go that way. It’d solve a whole lot of problems with the current system anyway.

    I was thinking the same thing. When the Nazis (and before them, Napoleon) were marching east, the retreating Russians used classic scorched earth tactics: they burned their own cities in advance of the invaders, so as to deny them winter shelter and resources. The city of Minsk, as I recall, was so completely burned out that not a single roof remained.

    Along the same vein, I recall an American revolutionary officer, who questioned his subordinates as to why they weren’t firing their cannons upon a certain house that the British had seized and turned into a headquarters. “But, that’s YOUR house, sir!” He ordered them to open fire.

    If the SCOTUS supports sodomite pseudo-marriage, it’s time for scorched earth. Marriage rightfully belongs to us and NOT to them, and it’s an abomination for them to have it, so we have every right to destroy it in order to deny them access to it.

    Plus, of course, as pointed out above, a whole crapload of other problems that have infected state-marriage will be gone if marriage is repealed. And the feds lose a whole lot of taxes due to nobody filing as married any more. (Hmm….) Christians and others who want to marry in religious ceremonies, can certainly still do so, and the legal aspects of life together (property, etc) can be handled contractually. As to the rest… as Mel Gibson playing Wallace said of the English fort in Braveheart: “Burn it.’

    Let’s not forget though, that the Russian burning everything in the advance of an invasion, was NOT their whole strategy. The complete strategy is, ‘Retreat….. and wait for Winter”. And winter is surely coming –it is mathematically impossible for the entitlement state to continue indefinitely, so on that basis alone, a civilizational crash logically cannot be avoided. And then, the objective age old truths of conservatism, will come hammering down on the thick skull of this culture til people are FORCED to listen to reason again.

  30. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    lzozozoz

    as usual, after putting on my thinknig cap, da gbfm has come up with the oslsutionz fro enduring lasting consertiave marragie marrgaieisz marriage!!!!

    Bring Back Prima Noctes!

    Braveheart: “Grant them prima noctes. First night, when any common girl inhabiting their lands is married, our nobles shall have sexual rights to her on the night of her wedding.” lolzlz!

    “Longshanks: Nobles. Nobles are the key to the door of Scotland. Grant our nobles lands in the north. Give their nobles estates here in England, and make them too greedy to oppose us.
    Advisor: But sire, our nobles will be reluctant to uproot. New lands mean new taxes, and they are already taxed for the war in France.
    Longshanks: Are they? Are they? The trouble with Scotland is that it’s full of Scots. Perhaps the time has come to reinstitute an old custom. Grant them prima noctes. First night, when any common girl inhabiting their lands is married, our nobles shall have sexual rights to her on the night of her wedding. If we can’t get them out, we breed them out. That should fetch just the kind of lords we want to Scotland, taxes or no taxes.
    Advisor: A most excellent idea, sire.
    Longshanks: Is it? “

    –From Braveheart

    I wish they would bring Prima Noctes back!!

    Imagine just one other man having rights to buttcockz your wife, for one night, before you got her.

    That would rock!!

    Today the master fiat class gives the first rights of your wife to an endless array of douchetards, starting in elementary school, commanding her to see lying, peacocking, manipulative, girly beta males as alphas, while seeing manly alphas as betas; as her mother exiled her true father long ago, under command of the fiat masters.

    From an early age they teach her that her ginatingles rule the world, not Jesus, nor Thor, nor Zeus, nor Moses. When she gets knocked up, they reward her with fiat dollars which Ben Benanke hand delivers in his helicopter.

    Today, when she kisses those kids and sends them off to school, she leaves traces of dozens of other men on their cheeks.

    Make no mistake–she is working for the Fed, and if you question any of this she will take your children away and the feminist police will search your home to determine how many assets of yours she will get. For again, all the Fed can do is create debt, and to convert this debt into physical wealth, they need men, like you, to work and labor for it. lozlzlzl!

    You know you tasted it when you kissed her a couple times on those early dates–that salty prima nocta form those who violated her orfices a few minutes before. And now she pwns u, the kids, and the home! And you have to pay 4 ur own cuckolding!!

    bring back prima noctesaz! just one man getsz your wifez on one night!! dat would rule!!!

    lozlzl!

  31. anonymous says:

    GBFM….. you make a distressingly good point.

  32. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    lozozozoz

    once upon a timez i was gonna be a lawayerz and when it came to da essay application essay for yale lawz shcoolz i worte THE BILL OF MENZ RIGHTZ:

    zozllzllzl every man shall have the right to

    1) a womenz who hasth been butthexed less than 4 times
    2) said 4 times not being done in the same night nor two consecutive nights niether lzozlzl
    3) said butthexing events not being secretly taped without her conthent
    4) no woman shall have a right to her husbands assetts if he comes home and finds her banging the poolboy ontop of his ps3 controller, thusly damaging said controller lzozl that would suck
    5) wehnu ask a women how many poeple she has been with it wil be law that she will have to verbally multiply her anser by 10, and then add at least half the ass cocking sesssions which still count as sexth in certain religions lzozlzlzl
    6) no man shall be made to fund a pussy that it out banging biker drummer cock, nor shall any man be made to pay for past use of a pussy lzozlzlzlz

    i think that if we can pass this men’;s bill of rights into law, 90% of marriages will last lzozl.zlzlzlzlzl lzozllz which is why the butthex congreth and fiat masters will rail against my sublime logic reason phsilophy and religion lzozlzlzzl

    P.S. YAle law rejecteedez mez but that was not their ful fault becuase they wrote, “We had an extremely large, highly-qualified pool of applicants this year, and unfortunately had to turn down many fine candidates.”

    da gbfm is a poor devil of a sub-sub–too stooopid to clerk for da supremerm court judges and help with the destcruicon and deconstruction of western civilization and da recururudicfification of moses and jesus and dante an dhomer too. lzozlzozlzolzozlozlzz

  33. anonymous says:

    although, GBFM, if the SCOTUS imposes sodomite pseudomarriage on us…

    … and then you succeed with the Prima Noctis initiative…..

    …. does that mean that the groom will get buttcockz for one night, too?

  34. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    “although, GBFM, if the SCOTUS imposes sodomite pseudomarriage on us…

    … and then you succeed with the Prima Noctis initiative…..

    …. does that mean that the groom will get buttcockz for one night, too?”

    yes! now da groom will get buttcocked before, during, and, after marriagez zlzozozozzo.

    da perfecta trifecta of buttcocking will finally be realized
    as marriage finally gains
    its apotheosis
    lzozozlzzozozo

  35. Bob Wallace says:

    I’d believe anything David Frum says (a Canadian with an insane left-wing mother) about as much as I believe anything William Kristol says: i,e., never. The tired cliche about even a stopped clock is occasionally right? Think of Frum.

  36. Draggin says:

    RE: Adult children of lesbian mother stats shown in http://unitedfamiliesinternational.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/chart-from-washington-times1.jpg

    Are your sure that they don’t count these as ADVANCES in society? 10 of the 14 stats (STI, forced sex, sexual touching and suicide are the exceptions), these stats just reflect the ideal that some factions of society are working toward. After all, shouldn’t the government take care of us all, and shouldn’t we be allowed to do whatever we want with no moral judgement whatsoever?

  37. Frank says:

    Wasn’t it Frum who admired the crease in Obama’s pants? That is five pounds of gayed up cray cray in a one pound bag right there.

  38. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    “After all, shouldn’t the government take care of us all, and shouldn’t we be allowed to do whatever we want with no moral judgement whatsoever?”

    Yes it is all good. Just ask David Frum. Nothing but progress here. Move along now,

    lzozozozozozozozo

  39. @ GB4M

    You’ve given me an idea. The alpha carousel seems like the basic Prima Noctes premise wherein the established nobles take a woman to bed for a night and leave her to her beta shlump peasant husband for the rest of time so she can fantasize about the one or several dozen lords’ and kings’ flesh-lances she serviced before settling into her dirt-floor hut.

  40. GBFM, it’s too bad nobody’s kept track of a stat like “number of people currently in their first marriage.” Divide that number by the size of the adult population, and it’d tell you quite a lot.

    Betcha it’s under 0.4 and falling fast.

    [D: The US Census SIPP data tracks exactly that. Your guess is very close. For White women in 2009 it was .42. It doesn’t appear to be dropping much though, at least not yet.]

  41. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    Dear The Karamazov Idea,

    Welcome aboar zlzozozl

    The “conservative” weekly standnadth repeatetd tucker amx rhyems iwth godlaman xwsax’s lies that he is six foot tall and called is film which lost $10,000,000 a suucttehetc succeth, all because he buttcocked a girl and taped it secrtely an wrote about it. To the neoentheocnths this constitutes “heroic” behavior, as oposed to the u.s. marines jumpng on grenadez on foreign shores who they ignore.

    To butthext a girl (afuture wife) and tape it sectrely is the highest neoococnth good, for then she is deosuled and will be more loyal to the fiat state than any future family or husbandz lozlzzoo

  42. Dr. Eric Stratton says:

    David Brooks is the keeper of the crease.

  43. anonymous says:

    GBFM…. if Prima Noctis does pass, soon we’ll see the folly of allowing women to vote….

    “Good evening, this is WFED news. Our leading story — Ron Jeremy has been elected for an unprecedented 7th term as Los Angeles Mayor in a strong showing over bisexual female supermodel Kate Downtown…. Ms, Downtown lost many female votes over concerns regarding mayoral Prima Noctis duties. Despite her campaign promise to defile only brides, not grooms, many female voters were skeptical. In the end, it was the women voters who put Mayor Jeremy back on the job….

    and the folly oid gay marriage…

    “In other news, President Roger Garcia-Smith and First Catamite Jose Smith-Garcia, declined to comment on the Supreme Court lawsuit regarding presidential Prima Noctis in D.C., territorial, and other federal zones. As the Church of Sodom forbids both heterosexuality and adultery, the President seeks a conscientious objector status, exempting him from this duty… Chief Justice William Clinton is believed to be the swing vote on the court… “

  44. Lovekraft says:

    Up here in Ontario, gay marriage was enacted basically by a couple of activist judges. I remember watching the hearings and was stunned to see a couple of opposing liberal members of the committee suddenly excuse themselves/removed, only to be replaced by more far-left leaning representatives of the feminist-homosexualist axis. Very sneaky, considering the liberal Premier prior to that held an open vote which established that marriage shall stay as “between a man and a woman”.

    Activist judges overriding parliament, the people. Standard Marxist tactic.

  45. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    lozozzllozlzlzozozooz

    technically spekaingz the act of sexual intercoucrse establiheshes a marriage of one fleshz

    so i would arugue dat da diovrce rate s much higher than even david frum fee-fi-fo-frum and ross douthat doutasshattata lzozlzoozzo think or believe it to be

    for it does not coutz all the couplez that live and sex toghter have lots of sexytimez and cohabit the same home, which is marriage, minus the formailty of wedding cake (Whcih da american womenz make up for anyawayz by eating lotsas twinkiez zlozlzozoz)

    nor odes does it count all da one hnight sexy time stone nigt stands, or twom month relationships, or six month “marriages” let’s play house for a week in vegas tripz or “just da tip of his cockas went in my anuthole and ginahole dat night ” so i am still a virginz! whew! dat was close!.

    add it all up, and there are trillions of divorces every day every year lzozozlzlolzozo

    but do not despair, for the GBFM, as usueals as usual has aBRILAINT SOLUTIONZ!!!!!!!!!

    at the exit door of every club, we need to post modern day churchians and ministerz.

    in order to save their soulz and keep them form libving in sinz lzozzozozl, i am sure they would be happy to marry the coulpez leaving the club, so that they scould have sex and buttehxt sin-free in the context of a modern marriage.

    the priest and minsitez could stand bseide the club bouncers with stacks of marriage certificatez, and fill them out as the couplez waited for cabs to go and sexy sex sex butthexty timez.

    an added benefit is that such maariagez may also allow the state to seize a man’z assetts, like at least his play station for a one-night marriage, or his collection of MAXIM magazinez and Ipad for a weekend-marriage.

    if any of you churrchiansz haz contacts in da church, i would like to move forward with this proposal which i call, the “SEX (& BUTHETXTT) WITH LOVE IS NOT LIVING IN SIN” movementz whereby we can help sanctify and save the soulsz of this fallenz, cursed, damnded geenrtizonzz generationzzlzozlzlzoozoz

    and den david frum and ross douthatthztz will e happy in love again and agree dat thingas are olny getting betteer better better better better better beststetttet BESTEST ever!!!!

  46. anonymous says:

    at the exit door of every club, we need to post modern day churchians and ministerz…in order to save their soulz and keep them form libving in sinz lzozzozozl, i am sure they would be happy to marry the coulpez leaving the club, so that they scould have sex and buttehxt sin-free in the context of a modern marriage.

    Sure, if the priests could collect a small fee…

    the priest and minsitez could stand bseide the club bouncers with stacks of marriage certificatez, and fill them out as the couplez waited for cabs to go and sexy sex sex butthexty timez.

    The Moslems have you beat. They’ve already got temporary marriage, Nikah mut‘ah (google it.)

  47. I’ve kinda blown David Frum off since he started his crusade against guns. He’s such a sanctimonious liberal-in-denial that trying to cut through his BS is more than I can handle.

    Unlike most here, I actually have no desire to preserve traditional marriage. I feel that marriage is just a way for the government to stick it to single people.

  48. Sherlock says:

    “You’ve given me an idea. The alpha carousel seems like the basic Prima Noctes premise wherein the established nobles take a woman to bed for a night and leave her to her beta shlump peasant husband for the rest of time so she can fantasize about the one or several dozen lords’ and kings’ flesh-lances she serviced before settling into her dirt-floor hut.”

    HAHA. I have read about that to. It does have some resemblance.

  49. Frank says:

    “David Brooks is the keeper of the crease.”

    Oh right, right, I’ve gotten my knowledge of faux-conservative dipsticks mixed up here.

  50. Sherlock says:

    Congratulations Dalrock. You are now being read by the elite. Here is another example of the sphere gaining influence in large MSM:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1b2kgu/my_experience_on_bbc_news_today/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/newshour

    Mike Buchannan, who cooperates closely with avoiceformen is also going from BBC interview and debate to BBC interview and debate and testifying before parliament.

  51. Sherlock says:

    Pretty soon they will have to read the sphere intensely and regularly in order to keep up on trends and important arguments and for new fresh perspectives and to now what direction people are moving in etc.

  52. Frum is a great example of how well the elites have been able to separate themselves from the rest of us, so that not only do the effects of their policies on the general population not affect them, but they don’t even see those effects from where they live. They and their friends continue to live pleasant, conventional, even personally conservative lives, and think to themselves, “See, I knew it; all those Chicken Little’s were wrong about how immigration/gays/war/debt/abortion/taxes/divorce would destroy the country. We enacted it, and life is still good. What do I feel like tonight, the opera or that new show on Broadway?”

  53. greyghost says:

    A little late to the party Dalrock but now You are not only said to be a cultural leader by me you are now being actually seen as a cultural leader. Time for the warriors to get busy.

  54. Sherlock says:

    I sent an email to the New York Times journalist emailing you with tips to other blogs in the sphere.

    I think the manosphere sites most likely to get wider attention will be the blogs that do the most thorough work like Dalrock is a great example of. A blog that looked DEEPLY into all the research on attraction would be great. So would a blog that when through most of the canonical feminist thinkers and critiqued them. So would a blog that followed women studies regularly and critiqued them thoroughly and outed their idiocy.

  55. tz2026 says:

    Meanwhile:

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-110197000-venereal-infections-us-nation-creating-new-stis-faster-new-jobs-or

    Yet… Since “marriage” has nothing to do with children, except in some indirect manner, is it not hard to prove “gay” marriage is not any worse than divorce, contraception (including delaying childbearing to the point where it might not happen at all), and other things not merely accepted but encouraged?

    If “Motherhood and Fatherhood” are theologically, philosophically, or politically divorced from “marriage”, then what is there to complain about? If they are not, then isn’t the “definition of marriage” such that procreation (or at least being open to it) is intrinsic as JP2’s Theology of the Body suggests?

  56. Rather, “gay marriage” (which is an oxymoron in my ears) is a symptom of a problem that has been around for a long time. Divorce and delayed marriage, especially among women in this feminist age, is the corrosive force undermining marriage.

    It’s true that same-sex marriage is just the latest nail in the coffin containing marriage, and the first dozen or so nails were driven by heterosexuals. But if you’re inside the coffin trying to get out, the first thing you have to do is get the people on the outside to stop driving new nails. If we want any chance of pulling out the no-fault-divorce nail someday, we have to get them to stop hammering on this one, or there won’t be anything left to pull out of the coffin anyway.

  57. GKChesteron says:

    Dr. Tony Esolen refuses to call such a thing “Gay Marriage” as that cedes too much to it. I prefer his neologism “pseudogamy”. It doesn’t rob the word marriage and calls a spade a spade. I suggest using it.

  58. Mark Minter says:

    Funny, I actually come to the blog today to leave what I thought might be an “off topic” comment on Gay Marriage.

    I have this idea of the future as further and further separation between the sexes , and subsequent discrimination against men, at work, in housing, and various other exclusions that are quietly masked behind economics. Already I see hints of it, “corporate culture”, credentialism, that can and will be used to “keep” men out.

    Women despise beta men. Make that one fundamental assumption and a whole lot of things become clear. And they despise them in a deeply subconscious, fearful, and visceral manner. I am positive of it. And I see in manifested behind so many actions and statements of women. They hate you. They fear you. You instill dread in them and they do not want you around them.

    The light came on for me about Gay Marriage and what this particular relativism might impose on us today when I read the USA Today article on the the deliberations and the lines that are occurring between the justices. I had maybe thought as a lot of more progressive people about the subject like “Big deal, I’m sick of it. I’m tired of fighting over this when there are more important topics that should occupy our deliberations than whether two fags get to plan a wedding.”

    My first thought that started to turn this idea was a comment from James Kunstler, author of the The Long Emergency, when he said that gay marriage was a particular relativism that could lead to outcomes over which we could foresee the consequences. So, I started to contemplate “Well, how? What?”

    Keep in mind the sheer constructivism in even the name “Gay Marriage”. It assumes exactly that a couple of guys want to get married.

    The outcome of Gay Marriage will be Lesbian Marriage. Or more exactly, marriage between two women and not a man and a women. The press and the internet are all showing these happy men, gay men, all hugging and kissing, “Yeah, we can order the cake!!”

    But the light came on today. All three female justices on the court support the issue. Only the men are arguing against it, and Kennedy as the swing vote. And his concerns are olike Kunstlers, we have little experience with this issue that the court could make a blanket decision across the whole country.

    This is from USA Today
    —-
    It was left mostly to the three women on the court to sound any sense of moral outrage about the plight of legally married gay and lesbian couples in nine states and the District of Columbia where same-sex marriage is allowed.

    Denied federal spousal benefits such as joint tax returns, marital deductions and Social Security survivor benefits, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, such couples “might well ask, what kind of marriage is this?”
    ——

    Notice, no discussion from the women over the moral issue. Only that those “couples” might not receive the financial benefits of marriage because DOMA forbids recognition on the federal level of any state recognition of “same-sex” marriage. While on one hand, the female justices recognize the legal limbo of marriages performed in states where “same-sex” marriage is legal. It is, to them, as if, the federal government does not recognize the right of states to control legal issues. But they did not vocalize the issue in this matter, they vocalized it on economic terms.

    Now notice my naming change, not “Gay Marriage” but “same-sex” marriage.

    There has been a plethora of articles from “never married” women and EPL divorcees decrying the “penalty” for being or staying single and how married people receive benefits that singles to not in owning homes, taxes, retirement savings, insurance, loans, etc.

    They wish to see more “alpha proxies” established, more social changes, to allow them “not have to have sex with those hideous, disgusting beta men”. Women don’t vocalize it in that manner, but trust me, all women sense it in a deeply subconscious manner. Yes, on hand, feminists align with the GBLT community in solidarity against “the man”, but this more than just two groups aligning for common interest. This is a deep subconscious issue for women.

    Notice also that Feminist publications are the biggest cheerleaders of “same-sex” couples, far more than any other genre. Notice that the Today Show, a show that is a mainstream of women’s news and social press, watched by far more women then men, has a woman talking head “host” in a same sex relationship that now “HAS A BABY”. Yeah, how sweet. And the news of her is Google Headline news. And Jezebel asked “Are we ever sick of seeing Ellen Degeneris and her partner in the press all the time. No, we aren’t”. Name me one famous, noteworthy, celebrated Male couple that is attempting to have a child and raise it and it is celebrated by the press. Even one!

    For gay men, the issue is more about social acceptance of their sexual lives. Most public indignation over homosexual sex was directed, in the past, towards men with little issue of lesbian sex. So homosexual menl see “same sex” marriage is the end of road for legitimizing homosexual sex. There will be an initial surge of marriages, but I think over time, it will drop as homosexual men have the same issues, the same concerns, as heterosexual men over the legal issues for men with marriage.

    But, mark my word, over time, “same sex” marriage will a female predominated occurrence.

    It is the Feminist Ideal, a same sex couple, raising children without men, empowered economically and socially by society. And all men, are out of sight, out of mind, to be seen and not heard, and certainly not allowed to be where women and children are. Their Goddess Gaia, hid her children from their father Uranus, and she conspired with her son Chronos to castrate him. It has been key to women to push men out of the house and the take supreme control and authority over the raising of children.

    The Facebook Chief Operating Officer, Sheryl Sandburg, publicizing her book about women overcoming the cultural programming to not compete, to not push for the higher status job, “Lean In”, said something along the lines of “When women are in same-sex relationships they know there will be an equitable division of household labor. So date the bad boy but marry the guy who will fold his half of the diapers.”

    Or woman.

    So if the Supremes rule in favor of “same sex” marriage, expect this outcome: Women having children with alpha sperm, and then marrying another women and receiving the tax benefits, insurance, Social Security survivor benefits and almost immediately within 10 or 15 years moving to create this feminist nirvana of society without men. Imagine other women celebrating this marriage equally or even more so then marriage to a man. These marriages may not even be sexual in nature, but mere economic unions, with no regard at all to sex. The two “married” people might even continue to go out and ride the carousel. It could even be more of an employer/employee relationship as much as a marriage of “equals”. The careerist woman gains a “stay at home wife” that doesn’t demand sex, and the other receives the benefits, insurance, social security survivor benefits. And all this with less divorce, because the woman doesn’t need to escape the beta husband that disgusts her.

    It basically is the end of idea of a man and woman, in a union based on love, forming a family bond to provide for mutual needs, and to have and raise children. It changes marriage exactly into a financial union with no other reason for existence. And you will see a rash of something analogous to “Green Card” marriages where, instead of the visa as the end, the benefits are the end. And women will flock to it and it will become nearly as common as marriages to men. And it will be one more form of single men, subsidizing women to the live the life that women choose, and they will consistently choose a live without you.

    And it will lock you out.

    Imagine a future, where any job in a corporation, with decent pay and benefits, anything that does not involve customer facing activity or isn’t dirty, requiring a degree, driving record check, a criminal background check, a credit check, drug test, psychological test, aptitude test of “thinking skills” (designed to a particular personality type and mental skill set). And then requiring “marriage” because “married people are more stable, more law abiding, more committed, more in line with the ‘corporate culture'”. Then an interview process in a majority female environment or management, that each step, each interview, all is designed to kick out those people that don’t fit. Those men that don’t fit.

    Then couple that with the growing power of home owners associations and coop boards. For a sale, even to rent today, approval is needed from the board, and again the board can set standards, that as long as those standards are applied without discrimination to any particular group, even though those standards could more often, in fact,, eliminate members from any one group, then the standards are upheld by the state courts and legislatures. Again, much of the same documentation is needed as for a job but ever more, credit history, financial statements, work history, criminal background, driving records, photos of automobiles, proof of insurance for autos, residence histories, references from neighbors, from work. And also, some version of “corporate culture” applied in the neighborhood, “family friendly”, and even married. And an interview with the board, comprised of women and married mangina men that acceptable to all the women, that can reject your attempt to rent or buy in a neighborhood on some very flimsy grounds, they think you are overtaxed in your finances, you moved to much, that you haven’t put enough down on your house, they don’t like your cars, your lifestyle,

    Or because you are a man.

    And assume a continued development towards what is called Neo-Feudalism, as more and more public life is occurring on private space, policed by private police and security forces, immune to laws with government regulation and control, that allow the type of people that the private space wishes and excludes others.

    Mainly you, Mister. and very soon, Boy. “Oh, Boy, bus this table for these women”. “Boy, look down when those women pass.” “Boy, can I see your pass that allows you to be here.” “Boy, you do not speak to women unless spoken to first. What is wrong with you?”

    So if the Supremes rule in favor of “same sex” marriage, you are one step further down that road to second class status.

  59. They Call Me Tom says:

    “I think that David Frum might be noticing that
    because there have been so many divorces
    and because less and less people are marrying
    there are less marriages that end in divorce.”

    Exactly my first impression.

    Partner A & Partner B is not an advancement of marriage. Nor in actuality, is it even an advancement of same-sex partners’ humanity. Might as well make it Partner A and Partner A… or maybe they could call them by numbers like in Rand’s ‘Anthem’.

  60. Mark Minter says:

    Oh yeah, and Dalrock, you need to rewrite that restaurant metaphor of marriage.

    The restaurant will have some successful men “allowed” in because they are “man enough” to be chosen as a husband and many female couples eating inside the restaurant, watching those men and women outside at the BBQ, with fewer women outside then in your first metaphor, and the few women that are outside are definitely cutting to the head of the line, and whole whole whole bunch of men on the fringe, excluded, watching as all the others eat

    and they go hungry. A whole bunch of men.

  61. GKChesteron says:

    Mark that’s delusional fantasy. Beta fantasy at that. What you are going to let that happen? How in God’s name are they going to pull that off by themselves? Did you even READ Darlock’s last post?

  62. anonymous says:

    and whole whole whole bunch of men on the fringe, excluded, watching as all the others eat….and they go hungry. A whole bunch of men.

    … until they riot.

  63. GKChesteron says:

    That. Like what’s happening in India right now. I’m hoping our civilization is a wee bit better about it. But the day people half my size decide what I can and can’t do is the day I turn in my man card.

  64. Mark Minter says:

    Oh, yeah, one last thing.
    The Chinese government DNA and genetics lab has procured the DNA of 2000 of the smartest people in the world. The used various criteria to “invite” donors, including credentials, publication, invention, testing. The will set come analytical computers loose on the sperm to analyze the alleles and characteristics of intelligence in DNA. Chinese parents will then have multiple eggs fertilized using the method described below. The genes from the eggs will then be compared using the training set of data obtained by the analysis of the 2000 smart people and the couple may then be fertilized with what is determined to be the “smartest egg in the basket”. It is assumed it could raise the IQ of the Chinese population by 5 points and in some cases with really smart parents, it could at least insure highly intelligent children of the level as the parents, and even higher. Welcome to Gattica.

    The British government just approved adoption of 3 person IVF into clinical practice. The egg from a third person can have the DNA replaced with DNA of one of the “parents”. So now issues with egg quality are lessened. The eggs from a young donor allow the extension of fertility far later. And the sperm from the “father” is rather incidental. Sperm, after all, is worthless and there are millions of them to be had in a jiffy. Now, kiddies can have two mommies, which are far superior to a mommy and some guy.

    The two “married” women can just go online to sperm.com and look at photos and profile, then both go together, get implanted at the same time with doctored eggs fertilized with high quality sperm, not any creepy beta sperm, but rather sperm that has been thoroughly vetted through DNA screening and analysis like that described above.

    We’re then only a hop, skip a jump away from accepted human cloning. And women can then wait until the carousel has long been impossible and then have a little “mini-me” of themselves with the health and tax benefits of marriage with their “partner”, and their own “village” to raise it.

    A village without men.

  65. Mark Minter says:

    @GKChesteron

    Tell me one thing in what I said is far fetched. Sure, it’s alarmist. But that is the point. But what is to stop women from marrying for the economic benefits if the definition is changed by the court? Changes will come by degrees, a little change here, a little change there, a little “Woman at a tech trade show that sends out a photo with an accusation that a man was disrespectful and he gets fired”. Oh, I’m sorry that already happened three days ago. And coop and homeowners association stuff is already happening. And yes, the employment thing also. I saw it in Jezebel where the receptionist hired at a law firm needed to have a degree. Because of the corporate culture. All of the other people in the office had degrees and they didn’t want someone that didn’t identify with the cultural experiences of the others and also they wanted someone that could maybe rise up in the company because of the degree. My opinion was they wanted a woman and no man with a degree would accept a job as a receptionist. So they got a person with a degree, a very relevant degree to work as a receptionist in a law firm, she had a degree from the Art Institute. Where is this person going to “rise” to in a Law Office with an Art Institute degree?

    The whole is point is the “Chesterson fence”. Your fence. Do not remove a fence unless you know why it was put there.

    So nothing I have said is not realizable. And probably even inevitable. Don’t go leveling “beta” accusations merely because I can put a string of events, data, observations into a theory, and right now I don’t anyone can really refute me.

  66. Mark Minter says:

    One more thing. I have already seen this in Latin America. Neo-Feudalism is in full force down there. Shopping malls with fences around them with limited entry points, all points guarded with armed security. Women and married men go in, but those creepy poor street men, that guard stops them and asks their business and will turn them away. Buildings, all building, residential and office, with women and married men, the better buildings, all again fortified with controlled access by guards, all office jobs in Colombia with mostly women, doctors and dentists are mostly women, government jobs are mostly women,

    And in the street selling stuff walking between the cars at stoplights, in the dirty jobs, the farm jobs, construction, men. The poor, the very poor, men. The homeless, men.

    I have seen “Solo Parejas” (couples only) clubs where single men are not allowed in, but single women are. Only old women beg in the streets, but lots of men. Guards at grocery stores entrances stopping some men, poor men, even demanding to see money before they get let in.

    And nobody says anything. They accept it as the way things are.

    And when the single men get out of hand, the “gente bien” (proper people. It is hard to translate it. Bien means “correct”, “acceptable”. It is very contextual ) roll around at night and snatch them off the street and they disappear. It is called a limpieza (cleaning). And none of the women are up in arms in the street about it, that those young men just disappear. “No debe, no teme” ( basically it translates to “no should, no fear” or the good people have nothing to fear, only the bad). They will actually post a list of names “inviting the listed names to their funeral”. So the smart ones, if they have any means to do so, get the eff out of Dodge.

    So I have seen it other places. Sorry if I can extrapolate the context of it to here.

  67. Mark, theres two things I’ll refute you with. I dont believe men will work like slaves without sex nor do I think that a country such as you describe could defend itself because it needs to have men trained for battle in its army.

    Slavery worked in the past because it was along class and not gender lines. Slavers had hard men to keep slaves in place and were able to reproduce with women. Slaves were kept agreeable with a balance of favourable conditions being more agreeable than going against the man. One of those risks of going against the man was endangering your wife and children.

    I am completely unaware if any slave class ever has been denied women in all of human history and proven to be an agreeable or competent workforce. I doubt it.

    Yet it wouldnt surprise me to see feminists try to do this. If they survive that long as a movement (I dont think they will)

  68. Mark Minter says:

    Ok, the murder rate in Venezuela is estimated by the private press at 22,000 last year. In the first year of Chavez taking office, it was 5,200 something.

    So what gives?

    Unemployment has dropped, the number of people below the poverty line has dropped, the average income has risen. So what gives? 70% of representatives on these “peoples councils” are women. They key recipient of government programs by Chavez to distribute the oil money have been women, in direct transfer of funds, medicine, education, have been women.

    I have never been to Venezuela and I admit, I am comparing apples to oranges by Comparing Peruvian and Colombian society to Venezuela, but what I see happening is a social favoritism, a tendency of “needs based” programs to favor women. Some Feminist paper I read said that 80% of the people live in what internationally could be considered the poverty line and 70% of those were women. The country is catholic and abortion is not sanctioned. So women that have children prior to completing school will inevitably have to quit school, hampering earnings. So these programs that have some income level as a qualifying feature coupled with the very nature of these sorts of programs will favor women. So Chavez was the Big super alpha, and the rest of the lower income men, men that had been relied on for support, and received the benefits of that support, are now left outside.

    And the young men of Venezuela are being squeezed out. So they are forming gangs and doing all the classic bad boy hood actions. Depending on the barrio you live in, it is almost impossible to escape it. If you stay on your own, you are a sitting duck. And all your friends do it. And most of that 22,000 is them or people caught in the cross fire over stupid squabbles like “hey, you dissed me”.

    We have this same thing here in America, in Black America. The women got economic favoritism and the men got shit. And shit on.

    You can say what you will and won’t do. But if means getting access and keeping access then you do what you are told. If means sitting in your cube and being afraid to even speak to women at work for any reason other than something directly related to work, you’ll do it. If means never ever ever telling an off color joke to one of your men friends because some woman might walk by, then you’ll do it. If an order comes out that all women in managerial roles will be addressed as “Ma’am”, then you’ll do it. And when the men see men that do not bow down getting shown the door or marginalized until layoff time, then they bow down.

    You can tell me how “mannish” you will be in the face of it, and go ahead. You can be as “black as you wanna be” and you will receive the same treatment as black men do. Jail and lack of access. So when you are standing in the street, outside looking in, and you are marginalized with no power, no money, you can throw all the rocks you want, you can burn down your neighborhood, but it will no affect.

  69. dannyfrom504 says:

    once the MSM picks up on it, the jig really is up. and women are starting to realize it.

  70. Sherlock says:

    Well, there are plenty of BDSM matriarchy groups that want to enslave all men for real with electrical shock devices and all sorts of other female supremacist movements online. Just google it and foul find plenty. There are both lesbian and straight/mixed supremacy groups.

  71. Looking Glass says:

    @Leap:

    I can’t get to into detail until morning, but the final versions of Slavery in America looked very different from most other classical example. It actually needed very little violence and only a limited threat of violence because of the very effective indoctrination system.

    Oh, and I’m pretty sure the Black slaves in the USA in the 1850s had a higher marriage rate than the entire country now.

  72. SlargTarg says:

    @Mark

    One hope I have to get out of your nightmare scenario is to consider that we are in a situation that is very unstable and is in the process of rapidly transitioning to something else. Many of the assumptions we live under have changed multiple times within the lifetime of the older members of society and there is no indication that the current zeitgeist can persist stably across many generations.

    As such it is almost impossible to make accurate predictions of where we are headed. Its like trying to predict precisely where are the bricks are going to end up as a building is falling down.

    There are a lot of stupid old conservatives raised under the old system along with sheltered younger white knights who are keeping the ship afloat. They do it at the micro level (police state) as well as the macro level with “Pax Americana” military might nipping potential Alexanders in the bud. Their numbers are shrinking daily and when they go so many things we view as permanent will suddenly pass away.

  73. Marmot says:

    To have Ross Douthat link to you and your data is quite an achievement. Bravo!

  74. Mark Minter says:

    @Marmot,

    Yes, I should have said something sooner. It is quite an achievement. We are all quite proud of you Dalrock. You have always fought the best fight of fighters. And you took the high road in fighting that fight. I can’t even come close to making that claim. Martin Luther Dalrock.

  75. krakonos says:

    @Mark Minter
    There will be no violence in white communities regardless of number of single mothers and and redistribution to women. At least for several generations. Whites are not violent because (gang like) violence was selceted out of the gene pool. It will take, at least, several generations to even destabilize the society by selecting betas out. Sure, there will be continuosly deteriorating conditions beginning in the lowest class with (slowly) increasing ghettos and violence. It will take time beyond point of no return (for the population to be able to rise from ashes and create any form of civilization).
    BTW, the barrios you are talking about are mix of people with predominantly black and indian admixture. There are only few purely white people.

    Women do not have to be afraid for them, their daughters and granddaughters. And noone cares what is going to happen then.

  76. geopo says:

    Consider that the acceptance of same-sex marriage is a result of feminism:

    Feminism pushes for women being at least equal with men.
    Men can marry women, so why can’t women marry women? And then why not vice versa? Wouldn’t treating men and women different be sex discrimination?

    I’m not in favor of same-sex marriage and this blog has been a great resource for seeing how marriage is being debased.

  77. Mark Minter says:

    Go to Google News. Click on one of the links for DOMA or Gay Marriage or Supreme Court . And you will see that list of articles on the subject. You don’t even have to read the articles. Just look at the names of the authors. Most are women.

    This will be best example of Chesterson’s Fence in my lifetime. It blows away women in combat. Maybe Roe v Wade and Abortion had more consequences, more side effects. It certainly murdered more children than anyone wishes to talk about so that women could earn merit badges. But it is too soon to say. I understand what the theme of this post is saying “That marriage isn’t doing so good as it is now. How could Gay Marriage cause it to do any worse?”

    But same sex marriage between women in the next 10 or 15 years will dwarf those between homosexual men. And women will do it exactly as a civil union with financial benefits, the same reason that they married men, for financial benefits. It was never a love issue for women, it was about status, social acceptance, and money. It was a love issue for men. And women have shown that spit on love when they have a means to their priorities. And now they are getting a way to do so and exclude men in the process.

    And if what I see is the trend, ain’t no men wanting to marry any women anymore. I have a son and if he comes to me saying “I’m getting married”, we gonna have to fight. Because he is not getting married. I will kidnap him and read Red Pill posts to him while tied to a chair before I ever let him marry. They would have to shoot my ass to even get through a wedding ceremony. You all could just imagine what would happen when the preacher says “Speak now or forever hold your peace”. I would make Strom Thurmond’s filibuster record look a quick bed time story.

    Of course the interesting thing will be to see how that “man” in the same-sex marriage of two women acts when she gets ass raped in a divorce. Will she be whining over on MRA sites? About those bitches.

  78. greyghost says:

    Mark
    So fuckin what. If women decide to chop each other up marrying one another but me down as a supporter. I would go so far as place bets on which church does a semon on lazy bitches not “manning ” up and marrying these heroic single bull dykes. Share what you have and don’t look at it with such dread. The end is near. A lot of women I bet are (a small bunch) are probably starting to “love” their husbands may even start to fuck them. (just kidding, stories of headless bodies being found maybe needed for that)

  79. greyghost says:

    BTW americans are armed and have a history of independence. south americans have always believed in the class stuff. They all accept it has normal and also they are unarmed and helpless.

  80. These marriages may not even be sexual in nature, but mere economic unions, with no regard at all to sex. — Mark Minter

    I used to think this too, because the conventional wisdom is that men want sex far more than women, so when it comes to the amount of sex in a relationship, you expect man/man > man/woman > woman/woman. Homosexual men seem to bear that out on the male side, screwing everything that moves even when they’re supposedly committed to someone. And yet, just yesterday someone posted a study that found that children of lesbians reported far more molestation than the children of straights — and even more than the children of homosexual men! That suggests that lesbians are a lot more focused on sex than we’ve been led to believe.

    Maybe the pre-1970 psychologists were right after all: homosexuality — in either sex — is a mental illness that leads to perversity of various sorts. Imagine that.

    I think you do a good job of describing what they would like to see happen, but it can’t really go that way, at least not for long. Men invent, design, and make things. Men grow, build, and dig things. For all of the equality and wage equalization and glass ceiling talk we’ve had for decades now, if you go where homes are being built, products are being improved, resources are being extracted from the earth, or food is being grown in large quantities, you’ll find men. Men still do the hard work, the intellectual work, and the creative work — primarily to put themselves in a position to have sex with women. Take away that incentive, and things will grind to a stop faster than you can say “Galt’s Gulch.” And the men won’t even have to go hide in the mountains, at least not at first. They can just drop out of the rat race, pick up some part-time labor (maybe cash, so tax-free) enough to pay the rent and Internet bill, and spend their time on porn and games. We’re already seeing that response, caused just by the increased number of women postponing marriage. Take a few million women off the market completely by lesbian marriage, and you multiply that effect exponentially. Designer purses and dishwashers won’t make themselves.

    Also, I think most women really do want a man — for sex, but for other things too. They’re designed to want one. True, they don’t want a beta nice guy, but they do want Mr. Right Alpha, and I don’t think they’ll give up the hope of finding him that easily. I could see what you describe being a temporary arrangement for the 20-something girl who wants companionship until she’s ready to find her alpha in her 30s, though — sort of an extension of the Lesbian Until Graduation phenomenon that already exists in colleges.

  81. Opus says:

    In the bar, a little while back; I am talking to a couple of overweight nineteen year olds:

    Fat chick: I am a lesbian
    Opus: Great! Me too, why don’t we get together later.

    So much for cock-blocking.

  82. mackPUA says:

    Mark is essentially right, we already have a slave state, its called wage slavery

    The corruption by women will always be by stealth & aided & abetted by lawyers & judges & cops

    Places like venezuela & india, men have always been treated like dirt, & they’ve always had cultures of treating men like dirt

    3rd world countries arent 3rd world because of economical income or disincentives, theyre 3rd world because they treat their men like dirt

    Plenty of countries managed to overcome colonialism & invasions, those countries with a history of matriarchy & treating their men like dirt, remain 3rd world

    India is a despicable country when it comes to men, India features a rapist in EVERY feature film they make, India is a shit hole for men, where most men live in the gutter

    India’s been a feminist shitfest, for centuries … indian women refuse to go out at night, because of the rapist brainwashing they receive from all the indian films featuring rapists

    Venezuela & ALL south american countries, round up & have mass shootings of men, on a daily basis

    All we hear about are the street children in venezuela, when there’s literally mass unmarked graves & ditches of rotting men, ditched inside landfills, rotting & dying on a daily basis

    Again ALL these shitholes, have one thing in common … the worship of women institutionalised as a right to murder & kill shoot & devestate men

  83. John says:

    “Maybe the pre-1970 psychologists were right after all: homosexuality — in either sex — is a mental illness that leads to perversity of various sorts. Imagine that.”

    Like many things in science, politics (including threats to careers, intimidation, etc.) played a huge role in removing homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

  84. Mark Minter says:

    A lot of it is already happening. It’s so subtle. It’s one reason the rate of unemployment is higher among men. A man is more apt to have a DWI or a public intoxication charge, more apt to fail a drug test from smoking pot, maybe an assault or disorderly conduct from a bar fight. I have spoken with way too many police officers at 2 am in my life. When you stack that list of requirements up for getting that corporate job, and nobody accuses the corp of discrimination, inevitably it favors women. It all seems above board. The company is just trying to hire “quality” employees. And Roosh had a post on needing Game to get a job so you get past those female screeners in HR. And inevitably in most jobs outside of tech, some woman will probably be in your interview chain. And trust me, if girlfriend has a choice between another woman and a beta, she is taking that woman every time.

    And the stuff with the coops and homeowners associations is happening also. You can assume today that gender has nothing to do with anything. And they are not the same everywhere. But the Great Recession really played into their power and to their hand. Many of them, or state associations representing home owners have gone to the state legislatures to up their power in the face of walkaways, defaults, and slow sales.

    They demanded control over the power to set criteria for both buyers and renters using the integrity of the property and the right of other homeowners in the association or coop to have their own investment protected.

    And the list of documents I included in my comment was not something I made up but are quite common when you go to purchase an apartment in a coop. If you read the notes on some properties for sale it will say “one month minimum for approval, interview required.” And things that were not considered before 2009 are considered today, such as your ability to pay, even though you can get a mortgage.

    There are coops like the Dakota in New York, that will not allow you to purchase if do not put at least 50% down and they prefer you pay cash. Some are even so specific they don’t want people that have to work for a living. They certainly do not want Wall Street Types. They want ‘old money”. People with 50 million in the bank. The Dakota told Antonio Banderas “no thanks” because he was a celebrity and the John Lennon murder gave the place undo publicity.

    I have seen ads that demand a minimum of 10% down, not like that’s no huge deal but that means no balloon payment loans, possibly no ARM loans. Remember a lot of neighborhoods got bit real bad the past few years. And they now have the power to dig into financial histories and records. Many new subdivisions have common properties that are maintained by the HOA, swimming pools, parks, golf courses, even streets with collective bills for electricity and water for those grounds, insurance, maintenance, all paid out of collected monies from HOA dues. Upkeep on houses and yards are the responsibility and assumption of every owner. They do not want to risk a house sitting vacant. So the legislature heard the HOA reps and agreed to strengthen their hand and control over who they decide to let purchase within that HOA or Coop.

    I am not making this up. And given the list of requirements and even the flexibility allowed in the discretion of HOA decisions, most lawyers will tell you to “get over it” if you get turned down and if they took your case they would demand a large up front retainer because they know you probably won’t win and the burden of proof is on you, therefore costlier. The HOA can just say “The candidate didn’t meet our criteria on “thingeys” and we apply that policy to all applicants.”

    Mostly the issue is going to be about money, criminal history, credit, your cars, your job history, etc. And for most single men, that’s usually enough to blow them out of the water. We single fellows aren’t the example of stability and what you might call “good citizens”.

    And really since 1990 almost every development took on a new role compared to how things were done before. Cities stopped building streets, laying pipe, cable for electricity, telecomm. Developers did it all, scraped the land, put in the infrastructure, built the houses, and did so with a tax break, or got hookup to utilities with things called MUDs, municipal utility districts, with bonds plugged into HOA and homeowner fees. So almost anything built in the last 20 years probably has a HOA underneath it. Most HOAs didn’t look into changing constitutions or by laws because they weren’t bit hard, but the underlying laws are there if they choose to do so. All that is necessary is majority approval by the members of the HOA that currently own the houses. And many can just be done by a majority vote of the HOA executive committee of appointed homeowners.

    So let a few years go by, like 10, and then when those gurlz are the ones with the corporate jobs, those stable histories, they’re gonna be the ones sitting on the other side of that table when you go for a job or a that home. And I promise, those mangina men that live in those places or work in those corps have always sided with women, especially married mangina beta men that do not wear the pants in the house, men with kids, men that haven’t been bit yet.

    So when those women decide to tighten the screws, they won’t say let’s keep those men out. They will use integrity of home values, safe streets for kids, quiet, calm lifestyle, crime, etc.

    Or corporate culture when you go for that job, “our potential employees are as much a part of our lives as our families, and we play together sometimes, and we need to insure compatibility as much or more so then we would from a spouse.”

    So when they have 4 good candidates for the job, creepy divorced man gets nixed, creepy video game guy gets nixed, creepy bald, short guy gets nixed, and that nice woman that plays on Laura-from-accounting’s kickball team gets the job. “She has two kid’s but her ‘partner’ picks them up after school. They’re both pretty close in age to my kids and she had the funniest story during the interview about how her daughter calls her ‘partner’s’ new son “bwuther'”.

    And anymore when you go for that job, you have to go through security that blows away anything that existed 20 years ago, with buildings built expressly for security and access control.

    And let unemployment climb in a bad way, and crime rise even a little, those developments will be slapping gates out there and many already have walls around them. Mine did. Most were merely the collection of fences from all the houses with two points off entry. It would have been nothing to put a gate with a card key to control access, and not that costly for 100 houses to pay to put a guard there and one roving the streets on a Segway type scooter thing.

    And that phrase I used about “A lot of public life is occurring on private space”. I didn’t make that up. I got it from a paper on Neo-feudalism, maybe the wikipedia entry. And it noted how those private security organizations were not bound by the same requirements to observe rights in the way public police were. The private security at work can search your person, your desks, even your car on their lot because you fore go rights once you enter that space. A mall police force can expel you from the property if they wish and need supply no explanation for doing so. Merely “Sir come with us” and if you resist they can detain you and have you arrested by the police for not following their instructions.

    Last month some boys did some flash mob thing while some girl star was performing and all these teen girls were there. And the boys assembled and ran through the mall overturning things. And a panic ensued with women interviewing saying, “I was so scared. I just grabbed my baby and started running.” Imagine that image in the mind of women, having to run with your baby in your arms from “those boys”. So you can trust every mall, every where, spoke with the state and strengthened their hand. And legislators allow this without concern for rights because “it is an extension of the public order on private space.”

    I’m sure you have read stories of guys doing Day Game and security shows up and shows them the door. Merely for trying to talk to girls. And you can expect that guys face is now in the bio-recognition database and when he comes in the door from now on, an alarm will go off on some monitor and he will be watched as he moves through the mall. Let him step out of line for a second and he could be banned from the space with the threat of trespassing charges placed on him if he ever returns. Merely for talking to girls. And those face recognition systems are getting really good. And now they are not just on the door cameras but every camera now, so if you get past the door then a subsequent camera might get a better shot at your face and pick you off.

    That “DongleGate” issue spooked the shit out of me, that a woman could take a picture and say the “These men were sexists” because she over some Beavis and Butthead humor that had no reference at all to women, and over that, over an overheard conversation, someone got fired. Now wait until women start going to security making claims of sexism because the boys at the next table were being boys. And let a story or two get out, some tweets, that “this mall is insensitive to women and allows sexist remarks to be made by men and ignores reports of it by injured women”.

    The internet changes everything.

    A substantial part of marketing now is content marketing. This “marketing” appears in the internet as content. It is classified as owned, earned, or paid. Owned means they literally paid a writer to write what they tell him to and then get the story placed. Earned means some blogger, somewhere, makes mention of them, their product, their idea, their message. And paid is they pay some blogger or magazine or news source to get their message across.

    It is noted their has been a substantial shift in the attitudes of the public on the part of same sex marriage since 2004 when many states had anti-gay marriage issues on ballots and when DOMA was passed. Content producers have done a marvelous job over the past years of creating a deluge of publicity with key opinion makers and influence brokers creating thought in people’s mind with a constant barrage of pro-same-sex marriage content.

    When the push for Gun Control came up after Sandy Hook, story after story flooded the web, with influential person after person getting on record for Gun Control and only some serious maneuvering, by possibility one of the richest and most skilled lobby groups ever, the NRA, keep it from becoming a ground swell and overwhelming Republican politicians. And it is still far from a done deal, the push is still out there, daily, and only put on the back burner by some other more topical issue that pertains to women.

    Now imagine if some flood like this came up after some incident of violence in the workplace or in a mall and story after story started saying “Women do not feel safe at work” or “Women do not feel safe at malls” or on the bus, or in their communities, or wherever, and it pounded and pounded with this “Women do feel safe” theme. And then whatever Oprah show of the moment jumps on it with a parade of “victims”, and story after story, a flood of content starts with this “Women do not feel safe”, they could get away with whatever they wanted. Advanced psychological screening for job applicants or home buyers using the Fugmenhover Battery of questions to ascertain propensity towards violence. And even in the future, DNA screening against a training database that identifies alleles of angry people or difficult people or competitive people that do not play well with others. And not a very far off future, I might say. Just a few years away.

    Your privacy is shit compared to “Women do not feel safe”. And on private space you have no rights. The owners of that space have practically carte blanche to do as they please and if it pleases the people that spend the most money on that private space, or the people with the power on that private space, or the group that screams the loudest on that private space, then you can bet the owners will do as those groups want and you can go to hell.

    So guys, I’m not just pulling shit out of my ass when I make the claims I do. This shit is going on now. And you have already swallowed the load and accept it. So let it creep in, little by little, and screws will get turned.

  85. Miserman says:

    I wrote a blog article in response to a story out of England where an eight-year-old boy was diagnosed with gender identity disorder and began transition to becoming a girl. He was raised by a lesbian couple. I would say this is an extreme example of what can potentially happen from gender confusion foisted on us by feminism and egalitarian thought.

    The article can be found here.

  86. John says:

    “The internet changes everything.”

    I don’t know. Before the internet, the national and cable TV news networks, Time, Newsweek, every major city newspaper, etc., pushed the same stuff (gun control, feminism, “tolerance” for select groups and hatred for others). At least the internet gives us many more alt-media sources.

  87. John says:

    Speaking of the media’s hatred of white males, I think it may have hit a new low:

    http://www.sbnation.com/2013/3/28/4155656/heat-bulls-white-people-so-white-oh-my-lord

  88. GKChesteron says:

    I’m sorry Mark. You went from marriage to slavery to Venezuela. That wasn’t an argument it was a screed. I don’t see half the population rolling over and throwing chains on itself. A troubled period perhaps as a readjustment occurs, but the day men become willing slaves in mass is the day they aren’t men. This is the type of stuff that makes the manosphere look like a bunch of cooks cooking up new ideas. It presumes that conspiracies work; and for the record they don’t. Two people keeping a secret is too much by one usually.

  89. Tankeryanker says:

    We single fellows aren’t the example of stability and what you might call “good citizens”.

    Then why should anybody hire you or give you a mortgage?

  90. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    It is good to see
    That some of you are catching on
    to the reason why the soul is being deconstructed
    via butthext
    As the communists banned religion in russia
    But got a bad rap
    So they decided this time they would
    Let the churches stand
    But deconstruct the soul
    So that people would be fooled

    It is good to see
    That some of you are catching on
    to the reason why the soul is being deconstructed
    to profit the few fiat masterszzzlzozoz
    at the expense of the many

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/03/17/family-destruction-as-consolidation-of-power/

    “Family law in the US is an expression of the logic of power. Feminism is merely a convenient tool. The goal is not to empower women – single mothers are amongst the most miserable of all our citizens, after all – but to shatter the power of the people in general by breaking the family. It may not be a conscious decision, but it doesn’t have to be. If bureaucrats can figure out how to squeeze another one percent of revenue out of men by enacting this or that policy, they do it. If a politician can more effectively create a base of support by fostering dependence, he’ll happily do so. The consequences to the people don’t matter — what’s important is that the people on the make keep the system working for them.”

  91. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    “GKChesteron says:
    March 28, 2013 at 9:57 am
    I’m sorry Mark. You went from marriage to slavery to Venezuela. That wasn’t an argument it was a screed. I don’t see half the population rolling over and throwing chains on itself. A troubled period perhaps as a readjustment occurs, but the day men become willing slaves in mass is the day they aren’t men. This is the type of stuff that makes the manosphere look like a bunch of cooks cooking up new ideas. It presumes that conspiracies work; and for the record they don’t. Two people keeping a secret is too much by one usually.”

    lol there GK Chesterton goes again, white-knighting and attacking folks who are making sense.

    hey mark–please do not worry about GK.

    GK, like many churchians, thinks that the beautiful words of Jesus Christ is “noise.”

    GKChestron labled multiple quotes of the beautiful words of Jesus Christ as “Noise.”:
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/the-morality-of-marriage-2-0/

    It is because of the GKCHESTrons, who are men without CHESTS, that we have lost Western Civilization. GKCHESTrons is far more loyal to the state and feminists than hi fellow men, whom he constantly prods, berates, and attacks.

    lzozozolozoz

    DA BIBLE OLD TESTAMENT STATES:

    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    JESUS STATESZZ DAT HE CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW
    BU TTHE CHURCHIANS TEACH
    THAT JESUS CAME
    TO ABOLISH
    THE
    LAW

    Today my girlfriend said,

    “Forgive the Churchians, GBFM
    for teaching that Christ came to abolish the law
    for that is what they were taught
    by thier butthexting churchian elders
    who prefer material welath, divocre, adultery, hypergamy
    worldly pride, butthext, fornication, greed, sophistry,
    over the simple teahcings ahd truths of Christ
    and thus use and corrupt JEsus Christ
    so as to abolish the law he came to fulfill.”

    forgive the churchians
    for reviling and persecuting you
    for quoting jesus christ
    forgive the churchians
    for reviling and persecuting you
    for explaining that jesus came
    to fulfill
    the law
    as jesus
    stated
    thusly
    forgive the churchians
    for reviling and persecuting you
    for “fixating” on the teachings
    of jesus christ
    forgive the churchians
    for reviling and persecuting you
    and accusing you of creating “noise”
    for quoting multiple translations
    of the glorious words and ideals
    of jesus christ
    for it is not ye that they hate
    but jesus christ and the law
    He came to fulfill.

    you can see chruchians churchians stating that jesus came to abolish the law here:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/what-we-need-is-more-chivalry/#comments

  92. Sigyn says:

    @ Mark Minter:

    “Name me one famous, noteworthy, celebrated Male couple that is attempting to have a child and raise it and it is celebrated by the press. Even one!”

    I’ll give you two: Elton John, and Neil Patrick Harris.

    “I have a son and if he comes to me saying “I’m getting married”, we gonna have to fight. Because he is not getting married. I will kidnap him and read Red Pill posts to him while tied to a chair before I ever let him marry. They would have to shoot my ass to even get through a wedding ceremony.”

    What, you don’t trust other adults to make their own decisions?

  93. Ton says:

    Men are already slaves in the usa. How many men live off small percentages of their earning due to taxes, child support, alimony etc and do nothing in protest? How many White men do anything about the legal system that puts them at a disadvantage in college admissions, hiring and promotion practices?

  94. Mikediver says:

    I have been on record here in the past in support of same sex marriage. My reasoning was that misery loves company. Marriage was so messed up and unfair to men that only by having a two women marriage break up, and a woman getting the royal screw job, would any discussion of a fair means of dissolution ever be started. These comments above have changed my thinking somewhat.

    I am old enough to remember when women needed a male partner to dance. This forced social interaction because women wanted to dance more than men. Once they could just dance with each other without any social condemnation, which occurred sometime in the 70’s, any need to socialize with men at public venues such as discos or bars with music pretty much stopped. I look at the current social scene and note a whole lot of attention whores dancing sexily while wearing very little, almost entirely with other similarly clad women. Once they have their attention fix they leave with their gaggle of friends. They generally have no interest in finding a man and are somewhat fearful of even being approached. Meanwhile the guys are still stupid enough to shower them with drinks and attention with no return on the investment of time and or money. Dance venues have become sausage fests with most of the guys paying the bill and standing around the sidelines with their thumbs up their a**es for the duration of the night. You can’t go to these places as a single man anymore and have more than a 1 in 100 chance of dancing. I got tired of that long ago and just stopped going unless I brought a woman with me; even if sometimes it was one of my sisters. BTW I go to these places because I like to dance. If we extend the option of marriage without men involved, many women (perhaps the majority) will make use of that option.

    A lot of discussion on this site has been about the marriage strike. A great many see the refusal to marry by a large percentage of men as the only means of bringing the pain to women in a way to turn around the misandry. Most of us know that in America the women mostly want to get married and not be married. A same sex marriage lets two women enjoy their special day without the bother of having get a man to cooperate. Grooms these days could just as easily be replaced with a cardboard cutout. If same sex marriage goes in, even the cardboard cutout of a man can be eliminated.

    I gave up all interest in American women about ten years ago, and have been married to a SE Asian woman for the past 5 years. My lack of interest was not a conscious decision, but rather a gradual shift. Only later did I intellectualize the decision. I also am trying to pass this insight on to my now adult sons. So far it has not been 100% effective. Some things can only be learned by painful experience.

  95. deti says:

    Dalrock:

    Stopping by to offer my congratulations.

  96. Norm says:

    I heard on the Mike Siegel talk show where he mentioned that a radical homosexual admitted they want gay marriage not for the sake of marriage but to destroy the institution.
    In British Columbia, Trinity Western University does not allow sex on campus of any kind(especially homosexual), and the Canadian Law Society say they will no accredit any law degrees for the university. The communist BC Teacher’s union tried that tactic with their teaching degrees. Trinity Western is a Christian university and says it will not change that part of their charter. I agree with them.

  97. Georgia Boy says:

    @Mark Minter
    In case nobody else has pointed it out yet, Amanda Marcotte is already working on your vision of female-only marriage:
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/03/22/leaning_in_man_style_women_just_need_their_own_housewives_to_get_ahead.html
    She even openly said at the end that they could go outside the marriage to get sex.

  98. Georgia Boy says:

    I just hope the link from the NYBetaTimes doesn’t result in a ton of blue-pillers coming in here and trying their usual reframes, shaming, and other tactics. I would hate to see this place get MSM’ed.

  99. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Gay mirage or pseudo marriage can be viewed as a form of egalitarianism and separation between the sexes.

    If both sexes are equal, then why not separate them? What’s wrong with it? What are you oh so hateful, regressive, oppressive and anti-LGBTQPP?

  100. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    That’s why whenever somebody talks to me about how gay mirage is A-Okay I just want to slap them.

    It’s not okay and you’re separating the sexes. You’re also damaging the children long-term. Sure the sky may not be falling now but in decades and centuries it will all go to ruin.

    The whole pseudo marriage thing really irks me because women just don’t see how it will hurt them.

    Kind of reminds me of a girl screaming to go to a dangerous jungle tour, and if dad allows this stuff, looks at a visible crocodile with its open mouth in the middle of a jungle and wants to get near it.

    If your daddy with weapons and various male friends/acquaintances (both of which you probably find scary and want to ban) weren’t there to shoot that thing you would be dead. And if the dad was strong enough, he and his buddies wouldn’t allow you to this crazy tour in the first place.

  101. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Men from all stripes see how it will damage society (from men to women to children to etc.) and that’s why even bad statistics show that they are against it.

    Sometimes I feel like I am in the Weird Zone. They see good as evil and evil as good, and that’s all while believing that there is no such thing as evil and good.

  102. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Sometimes I feel like I am in the Weird Zone. They see good as evil and evil as good, and that’s all while believing that there is no such thing as evil and good.

    I’m talking about modern society here.

  103. tz2026 says:

    At a church group yesterday, we had mass, then some discussion, and of course marriage came up. I went out of the box when I asked “Why do I need a permit from the state to access a sacrament”? I got some respectable talking points back, but it was clear they never thought about the implications. I pointed out the twin bonfires both of which redefine marriage more profoundly – contraception (70+% of catholics) and divorce (35% or more if you don’t count repeats, and I did mention the annulment factories), and noted that perhaps the devil is pointing at a candle (“gay marriage”, 2% or less) and screaming that we need to do something about this really big, important, threatening, horrific bonfire immediately.

  104. anonymous says:

    MM: I have been on record here in the past in support of same sex marriage. My reasoning was that misery loves company

    Marriage is God’s judgement on homosexuality.

    (just wait til they hit divorce court! “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.”

  105. TMG says:

    David Frum only has a job because he concern trolls conservatives and libertarians in the media.

  106. Random Angeleno says:

    just wait til they hit divorce court! “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.”

    That has always been my favorite take on same-sex marriage. They want that? They can have divorce too! I always figured same-sex marriage was all about opening another market for family lawyers. Follow the money and all that.

  107. greyghost says:

    The atats on lesbian marriage/relationships are really bad. Full of violence and an increased rate of suicide. As an MRA out to change the law I say I’m all for gay marriage. I’m going to love this. Women will have absolutely nothing to keep them in check. No matter how much money they make they will spend every dime. They will slap and hit each other and both will be completely devoid of empathy and love (two women) trying to be victims of each other. Don’t worry Mark we will be at a state of civil war before we have slave men and boys.

  108. BradA says:

    The problem with the “women will rule and lock men out” argument is that many women want men. “Bad boys” would not be attractive if most women would settle for another woman. That doesn’t make the short-term look good for beta men, but this feminist lesbian paradise is unlikely to happen because women themselves will oppose it.

    We will probably get a lot worse until things change, but the saying, “what can’t continue won’t continue,” is very appropriate. You cannot build a firm foundation without some form of traditional family at a strong level.

  109. Johnycomelately says:

    Minter is right.

    Feudalism and the tyranny it entailed lasted a long, long time before it was overturned. Bifurcation to the access of technology is the vanguard of tyranny, when iron was a rare commodity only the elites had access to weapons of war and it was easy to pen the serfs.

    Ever wonder why the Mongols steam rolled mighty empires? They had puny horses.
    The only reason the revolutions of the 18th century happened was because the serfs had the same access to gun powder as the elites did.

    If you look at network topology maps the elites are creating dominating connected sets while the serfs have Facebook, they can pick up entire industries and transport them globally while all you can do is complain about it online.

    A dark winter is coming and it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

  110. GKChesterton says:

    @GB4M,

    You keep saying that, and it doesn’t make it more true. Your posts aren’t impossible to read but purposefully formatted to be difficult. I called _your_ post noise. Jesus didn’t spend his time inserting “lolz” every few seconds. Confusing your noise with his wisdom just _might_ be a problem. Interspersing Biblical text with noise strikes me as blasphemous.

    And the white knight thing…Lord almighty that gets old. Especially when the androsphere’s definition doesn’t even fit in this case. Who exactly am I riding off to the rescue of? I’m attacking an argument; or more properly pointing out one hasn’t been presented. If that’s white knighting then we might as well just write off all conversation.

    @GreyGhost,

    Yes they are terrible. Lesbian “domestic” violence is obscene in its bizarreness. However, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, man or woman, for that reason. I’d rather a return to the status quo anti rather than toss more kerosene on the fire.

    @Ton,

    “A man chooses a slave obeys” – If you are enslaved, and I sincerely doubt you are, then stop being a slave. Mad ranting about the “womenz” is beta behavior pure and simple. It is purposeless posturing. We can talk about realities like the system being piss-poor and about the current feminization of culture and the problems with it, but throwing your hands up in the air and asking it to all burn down isn’t manly behavior. In fact it is the exact opposite.

    I cannot be enslaved by people half my size unless I willingly submit. This doesn’t even require fighting. The natural human response to having someone twice your size make it clear that he will not submit is to _yourself_ submit. That “frame” stuff we throw around. In fact you are far more baffling if you just say “no” and move on. The system isn’t designed to handle that.

    @Almost All of You,

    Again I’m not clear anyone here read Dalrock’s last post. It was a pitch perfect Christian response to the current system. It contained love of the Feminine. Something that is strangely missing here from his fans.

    Not liking the current broken system should not translate into wanting to see the End of Women. I, for one, would be pretty upset to not have them around. For starters they are pleasant on the eyes.

    I am once again reminded of the Spearhead post on daughters that was a beautiful post followed by a comment stream that was mindless and terrible.

    I want men to be men. They are wonderful as such. I want women to be women. They are great to have around when they are. Weepy whiny guys are just as much of a turnoff as bull dykes whores _to everyone_.

  111. GKChesterton says:

    @BradA,

    Spot on! If any of this game stuff is real what is being argued by Winter and his supporters _ISN’T EVEN POSSIBLE_ because women _NATURALLY_ will gravitate towards _FINDING MEN TO FOLLOW_. A society that eliminated men would therefore collapse within a matter of months into the worlds greatest bloodbath.

  112. Miserman says:

    @Mikediver

    Most of us know that in America the women mostly want to get married and not be married.

    Great point and important distinction. Marriage today is held not as an institution of fixed definition and expectation establish by God, but as something that emerges from sentimental human desires and felt whims, wrapped in a ball that is called “love.”

  113. Ton says:

    Slaves are always comfortable with their chains GK, just as you appear to be. But how free is a man when the government can steal 75% of his earnings? How free is a man when it is legal to put him at a competitive disadvantage? And if you do not pay that 75%, or if a college/ corporation ignores the competitive disadvantage, the government sends men with guns to find out why. You are a fool at best.

    As for me, I have a plan, which should get me out of the usa in 3 years. At which point I would gladly fight against america

  114. anonymous says:

    As for me, I have a plan, which should get me out of the usa in 3 years. At which point I would gladly fight against america

    No need, if the prophecies are true. China, Russia, and a number of smaller hangers-on (notably Mexico), will wait til we are weakened (eg by a vast natural disaster such as a New Madrid fault quake), and then attack and invade in a collaborative effort. Long story short, the US military will put up a supremely good fight but in the end, will be defeated and scattered, and our government will fall. We suffer 7 years of brutal occupation, enslavement, genocide.

    However, American guerillas will never quit and eventually the enemies will be driven out, and freedom will be restored.

    So don’t be on the wrong side of Red Dawn.

  115. greyghost says:

    GKChesterton (Chesty)
    A society that eliminated men would therefore collapse within a matter of months into the worlds greatest bloodbath.

    Sounds good to me. I.m a technician and mechanic I will be fixing tanks as easily as fixing and readying a UAV or fighter plane. I can also keep robotic machine tools running as in a munitions plant. A blood bath will be good for business.

    Yes they are terrible. Lesbian “domestic” violence is obscene in its bizarreness. However, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, man or woman, for that reason. I’d rather a return to the status quo anti rather than toss more kerosene on the fire.

    Not me I’m all for changing the world for my son and some as yet born little girl.I say you go girl and it is your right to be happy. I say lick that pussy and kick her ass if you are not happy. Never be a door mat for anybody. I bet if you and I talked to a group of women they would hate you and love me and and suffer for it as they should. I’m a warrior an MRA learning his craft I am here at dalrocks learning what the end game looks like.
    I would see every female ove the age of 5 today suffer a life of promiscuos sex followed by bitter loneliness and pain,drug addiction all of it without doing a damn thing to stop it Let them enjoy their consequences and quit caring in that way. Let solipsism,and wicked childish selfishness save them. Hypergamy will do wonders.

    Get hard man

  116. greyghost says:

    Ton
    As for me, I have a plan, which should get me out of the usa in 3 years. At which point I would gladly fight against america
    I can’t leave, I have kids, gotta do it the hard way. State of Texas is working on secession anyway. May end up fighting for the new confederacy any way. Trying to get all of their gold in the state. Passing out handgun licenses for conceiled carry as fast as people apply and complete the requirements. Firearms and free interprise is welcome.

    What country are you expatting to?

  117. Anonymous age 70 says:

    I spend a lot of time talking to someone who is very pessimistic about the future. He projects current events into the Never-Never. And, I think a lot of people do that.

    Over my lifetime, I have made many projections based on current events or trends. Most of them were wrong, because unexpected things happened, which threw the trends off from their visible path.

    I do tend to believe the US is on its last legs for all the reasons stated by pessimisitic MRAs.

    However, we should not marry one idea exclusively.

    For example, what happens if a large rock crashes in the center of the USA?

    What happens if a major epidemic kills 1/4 or more of the population?

    What happens if the economy totally collapses to the point of mass starvation?

    We can say those things are so unlikely as to be considered impossible. Yet, all of those things have happened in history.

    Other things are also improbable, but also possible. A major uprising among unemployed men. A major uprising among those who are hostile to our current totalitarian government. Even a major uprising among women who can’t find husbands, and an articulate woman leads the way.

    A major economic shift in the US economy due to dramatic increases in oil production in the US.

    A major exodus of men from the US to better opportunity.

    Successful implemenation of a pogrom against men as they have sought for nearly 50 years.

    Anyway I am not trying to predict the future. I am saying be ready for anything unexpected. In times of change those who are prepared for unexpected events usually come out ahead.

  118. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    lxoxoxox Now GKChesterton is stepping it up a notch by bearing false witness and lying in order to further his constant attacks against men. I’m beginning to think he is a feminist, or he might as well be.

    GKChesterton writes:
    “@GB4M,

    You keep saying that, and it doesn’t make it more true. Your posts aren’t impossible to read but purposefully formatted to be difficult. I called _your_ post noise. Jesus didn’t spend his time inserting “lolz” every few seconds. Confusing your noise with his wisdom just _might_ be a problem. Interspersing Biblical text with noise strikes me as blasphemous.”

    GKChesterton — it was not my zlozozlozolz that you called noise, but it was the words of Jesus:

    Here, GKCHESTERTON states:

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/what-we-need-is-more-chivalry/#comments

    “I have to admit I didn’t read everything you wrote though because GB4M went from a moment of lucidity to a bunch of noise (. . . quoting thirty plus variations of the same verse is).”

    Here GKCHESTERTON states that “quoting thirty plus variations of the same verse of the Bible is noise.”

    What GKCHESTERTON is referring to are the Biblical quotes I posted. There were no lzozlzolzoozozzes, as GKCHESTERTON Wrongly states, but only the words of Jesus Christ, which GKCHESTERTON called “noise.”

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/what-we-need-is-more-chivalry/#comments

    New International Version (©1984)
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
    New Living Translation (©2007)
    “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    “Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

    International Standard Version (©2012)
    “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill.

    GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    “Don’t ever think that I came to set aside Moses’ Teachings or the Prophets. I didn’t come to set them aside but to make them come true.

    King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    American King James Version
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    American Standard Version
    Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    Darby Bible Translation
    Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil.

    English Revised Version
    Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    Weymouth New Testament
    “Do not for a moment suppose that I have come to abrogate the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abrogate them but to give them their completion.

    World English Bible
    “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    Young’s Literal Translation
    ‘Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets — I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;”

    GKCHESTERTON bears false witness and lies (two sins according to Moses and Jesus, who came to fulfill the law) by accusing me of interspersing Biblical Verses with loozozozozozozozes, and then wrongfully accuses the GBFM of blasphemy, as he writes,” I called _your_ post noise. Jesus didn’t spend his time inserting “lolz” every few seconds. Confusing your noise with his wisdom just _might_ be a problem. Interspersing Biblical text with noise strikes me as blasphemous.”

    The GBFM never interspersed Biblical text with lzozlzozoz, but rather, GKCHESTERON called the words of Jesus noise, and then, to add insult to injury, he had to lie and bear false witness against the GBFM.

    The GKChestertons–the silly men without chests, nor honor, nor common civility–is the reason Western Culture and liberty are being lost.

  119. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ton

    Slaves are always comfortable with their chains GK, just as you appear to be. But how free is a man when the government can steal 75% of his earnings? How free is a man when it is legal to put him at a competitive disadvantage? And if you do not pay that 75%, or if a college/ corporation ignores the competitive disadvantage, the government sends men with guns to find out why.

    Money isn’t everything. According to GBFM, it’s not even real. I agree with him.

    So, here you are, ready to go to war over the fact someone (IRS, etc.) wants your coupons…coupons that you say have no value, yet for which you keep working. I submit that a man who is free of coupons is free indeed, so let money go it’s own way. The horror of inflated money, false weights, and the general pursuit of ill-gotten gains is not that men get taxed by other men, but that men on both sides of the tax divide have put money–a thing not just imaginary but also illusory–above God and His creation. It is a similar horror to the way men put fantasies of hot sex above commitment (pretty looks over a wise choice) in who they choose to date and marry. Then they conjure up some falsely weighted metric about “hard-wired preferences” and “genetic fitness”. It’s bullshit. They wanted the hot chick at college/the bar, so they passed up the prairie-skirted girls at the fundie church. Now they’re wondering what is wrong with women. The prairie-skirt fundie girls are still out there; being ridiculed by the press AND normal beta guys for their funny hats, lack of make-up, and modest dress.

    If you want to go to war then join the cads. But make no mistake: it’s Satan’s work, and you will share in his reward. At the end of the day non-procreative non-marital relations are really just mutual masturbation, and masturbation is masturbation. There is no qualitative difference between homosexuality and non-monogamous sex. You just happen to like taking penis after it’s been strained through a vagina. (Bi is so cool, right?) Plus, you’ll probably be low man on the pole. (Har har.) Truckloads of sluts can impale themselves on a motorcycle’s-worth of dudes. Fornication is a saturated market, and they’ve seen better.

    It strikes me that you know this, which is why your cognitive dissonance is driving you to go on a beta-raging war against the US. There is a crazy person in this argument, and it’s not GKC.

  120. Cane Caldo says:

    @GBFM

    GKC criticized your technique. That’s a disagreement. You’re purposefully mis-characterizing his criticism to make him look bad. That’s slander and calumny, and breaks one of the Two Great Commandments.

    Strain the camel, GBFM.

  121. JS says:

    Mark Minter’s posts were thought provoking. Unfortunately, the worst enemies of men are those who resort to insult against those who put a lot of thought into where these marxist planners are going. There’s nothing worse than the “moderate” who spends most of his time trying to sabotage the warnings of thoughtful men. Truly, there is only one reason we’re in this predicament, and it’s because you hardly take an interval of the political spectrum without finding one of these jerks on it trying to marginalize those on the right side of the interval. “GKChesterton” (like the real life Chesterton, like most “conservatives”) – has priorities other than fighting feminism.

  122. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    Dear Cane Caldo,

    Actually, no. Read my post. GKC made things up and lied.

    The facts and evidence are all above.

    Have fun with the facts and evidence!🙂

    lzozoozlzzoozzl (saying zlzozzzozozoz does not blaspheme the gospels. zloolzlzzolzlzlzlzl all day long lzozzozzlzozz)

  123. Cane Caldo says:

    @GBFM

    Though I doubt it will change your mind, I’ll play your game.

    GKC said:

    “Your posts aren’t impossible to read but purposefully formatted to be difficult. I called _your_ post noise.”

    Criticism of your style.

    “Jesus didn’t spend his time inserting “lolz” every few seconds.”

    A bit holier-than-thou, but still just a criticism of style.

    <blockquoteConfusing your noise with his wisdom just _might_ be a problem.

    We’re not supposed to be stumbling blocks, and you do go out of your way to be obtuse.

    Interspersing Biblical text with noise strikes me as blasphemous.”

    “Strikes him”, being the operative words. He doesn’t like it. He didn’t accuse you of being blasphemous. Yet you call him a liar, and accuse him of making things up. We often agree, but you’re the one in the wrong here. Besides: Why you gotta bring up old shit?

  124. Cane Caldo says:

    Missed a carat to close the tag. Dalrock, would you be so kind?

  125. Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    Caldo, ye have eyes but do not see.

    When I quoted multiple translations of the Bible, GKC called it noise.

    Then he said he called it noise because I had interjected lzzoozlz into it. I did not interject lozozlzz it. So GKC called Jesus’s words noise. Then he had to accuse me of blaspheming by interjecting zlzozozoz into biblical verses. lzozozozlzozlzozloz

    Please see above, and feel free to follow the links to the original material when you get a chance.

    lzozozzloolzoozoz

  126. anonymous says:

    ….I saw an inscription, in lines finer than anything I have ever seen before. The inscription shone piercingly bright, and yet remote, as if out of a great depth:
    zozozzloolzolozozlzzozozzozozzloolzoozozlozozlzzzozozzloolzoolozozlzzzozzozozzloolzoozozzozozzloollozozlzzzoozozzozozzloolzlozozlzzoozozzovzozzloolzoozozzlozozlzzozozzloolzoozozzozozzloolzoozovzzozozzloolzoozozzozozzlozozlzzloolzoozozzozozzloolzlozozlzzoozozzo

    ‘I cannot read the fiery letters,’ I said.

    ‘No,’ he said, ‘but I can. The letters are ButtHex, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Great Books for Men , which I shall not utter here. But in common English this is what it says:

    One Fed to rule them all, One Fed to find them,
    One Fed to bring them all and in the darkness bernakify them.

  127. 8oxer says:

    LOL @ anond00d

    I love GBFM and I have loved his work for years. He is a unique and genuinely funny man. Respect to GK Chesterton too. Peace to all my brothers.

  128. ballista74 says:

    Put GBFM’s posts through a text-to-speech engine sometime…it’s entertaining.

  129. Ton says:

    Why do slaves hate it when other men strike for freedom?

    What is the basic definition of slavery but being forced to work for the benefit of others? When 75% of your money is taken, who are you working for? Certainly not to improve your own life, or your children’s.

    I don’t care for the same things others do, fiat money, the divorce laws… tons of shit not to like, yet the other side has done nothing but with , “my side” says play nice and does nothing but lose. I could stay here and pick one worthless, fucked upside over the other, but as long as I stay here I support the mess with my tax dollars and the like…

    Or I could go to a sane nation that does not do those things. Or is moving joint team evil?

    Ps, someone has watched way to much Red Dawn.

  130. Novaseeker says:

    Congrats on the linkage, Dalrock! Well deserved.

    As for the OP, the problem with gay marriage isn’t that it destroys what is otherwise a robust and healthy institution of marriage, but rather that it helps bring it down even further. This is, in fact, the agenda of at least some of the gay marriage activists. The idea is that because the way gays and lesbians relate to each other has displayed patterns quite different from the typical heterosexual marital monogamy (in norm and expectation, at least, if certainly never in perfect observation), having an increased number of gays and lesbians in marriages will help to redefine relationships between spouses in general, whether they are gay or straight couplings. Specifically it is hoped that this will result in a number of different things, namely: (1) a further trashing of gender roles in marriages making the moving parts all interchangeable more or less, (2) a tolerance towards non-monogamy based on the fairly common open nature of gay male partnerships (at least on the sexual level, and noting that this is less common among lesbians bt also still more common among lesbians than among straight couples) and (3) an acceptance/expectation of impermanence built into the expectation of the institution based on the fairly common serial monogamy practiced by lesbian couples. All of this is hoped to lead to a situation where the typical straight couple is more significantly influenced by the relationship norms of same sex couples, with this impacting how the children are raised, which leads to the ultimate goal: the creation of a generation of kids who are very skeptical about any kind of gender roles, preferring fluidity, who do not believe in monogamy as a relationship norm even in marriage and eschew the idea of marital endurance. In effect, this will change the institution from the inside out, making it something other than what it is right now, and the idea is that only same sex couples, by adding an as-yet-absent variable to the mix of marriage, can do this in a way that redefines marriage for straight people.

    And that, friends, is the whole idea.

    So, no, it’s not that gay marriage destroys marriage. It’s rather that it is hoped that it will recast the institution of marriage from the inside out in a way that transforms also the marriages of opposite sex couples. Now, that may not happen — there are only a handful of same sex couples as compared with the number of straight couples. And that ratio is the reason why some gay activists were critical of this approach, worrying that marriage was going to make them more like straight people than vice-versa. People like Frum are betting on this scenario. We will have to see what actually happens in the end.

  131. earl says:

    From what I keep reading about Russia and Putin…I tell you it’s looking like a better place to live than America. Try saying that as recently as 20 years ago.

  132. Novaseeker says:

    Over my lifetime, I have made many projections based on current events or trends. Most of them were wrong, because unexpected things happened, which threw the trends off from their visible path.

    This is exactly right. Extrapolating trends almost always leads to bad predictions, regardless of how logical, due to the unknown variables. It’s really hard to predict the future with any degree of accuracy as a result. Being prepared for the unexpected, to the extent that this is possible, is a better approach.

  133. anonymous says:

    someone has watched way to much Red Dawn.

    You can never watch too much Red Dawn! What’s scary though, is that there are hundreds of prophetic visions of America’s conquest and occupation.. and only FIVE of those visions say that we’ll eventually win.

  134. anonymous says:

    Ton — if you want to go to Russia, feel free. Just don’t join the army, and stay out of the cities. Good advice for Americans too.

    Do svidaniya, tovarisch!

  135. The One says:

    Abortion first made legal nationwide via the birth control bill in 1960.
    Cuban missile crisis 2 years later
    Homosexuality now in the Supreme Court
    NKorea going nuke crazy

    If you think G-d isn’t going to punish, you are foolish. Moving is probably best, Phillipines has no divorce/abortion though it is poor, Russia looks good, also still poor at the moment

  136. anonymous says:

    The One — abortion is HORRIBLE in Russia right now. It’s the reason for their population decline.

  137. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ton

    Why do slaves hate it when other men strike for freedom?

    What are you talking about, military man? As a (former?) indentured servant: Are you confortable with your chains? Do you hate it when other men strike for freedom?

    What is the basic definition of slavery but being forced to work for the benefit of others? When 75% of your money is taken, who are you working for? Certainly not to improve your own life, or your children’s.

    I’m not forced to work. When money is taken from me immorally (even if peacefully) I’ve been burgled; not enslaved.

    I don’t care for the same things others do, fiat money, the divorce laws… tons of shit not to like, yet the other side has done nothing but with , “my side” says play nice and does nothing but lose. I could stay here and pick one worthless, fucked upside over the other, but as long as I stay here I support the mess with my tax dollars and the like…

    Or I could go to a sane nation that does not do those things. Or is moving joint team evil?

    This is a very different thing from what you said above about being ready to fight against America as a foreign national.

    The cads have chosen, and so they are at least free. From your words, you think I’m a senseless and put-upon slave, but I tell you that I, too, am free. You–who wants to do what you think is right, but doesn’t like the consequences and so just exists at the whim of others until you make your big move in three years–are not.

    Look: I’m not worried about America, or your threats. Good luck and God bless whatever you do, but this kind of thinking isn’t good for Ton, or any other man. You have displayed a mindset of slavery–which explains why you see it everywhere. Moving your brain to Utopia will only make you a slave in a different locale. It drives me to distraction to read otherwise seemingly decent men choose to be free “sometime later” (like three years) rather than letting the truth set them free right now. And the truth is: burglary, limited choices and consequences exist everywhere, but you are free to choose how you respond to them wherever you are. Even prisoners have choices. More importantly: You can choose to help others right now, or you can bitch about things sucking and day-dream some fantasy of a never-approaching future.

  138. GKChesterton says:

    @Novaseeker,
    As for the OP, the problem with gay marriage isn’t that it destroys what is otherwise a robust and healthy institution of marriage, but rather that it helps bring it down even further.

    Quite right. This is the end game. This should horrify Chritistians. What amazes me here is that there are so many supposed Christians here only too thrilled to see the collapse of God’s institution. I’m reminded of David’s care with Saul. Saul/Marriage is stumbling a bit right now but we’d do good to remember who owns Saul. It ain’t us.

    @Ton,

    I’ve considered leaving the States. There really aren’t a lot of other options. And slavery is as slavery does. The feds don’t take 75% of my income and if they did I know how the system works and will gladly adjust my income accordingly. The system is designed to produce winners, you just have to make sure you are part of the winning group. Throwing your hands up and pouting is just wrong. I’d also advise you to modify your speech. What you are saying could be viewed as seditious _especially_ if you are a former officer and or have a security clearance (you’ve implied you have been involved with the military in the past).

    @Anonymous + 70,

    The words of the wise old man. My father was a bit of a conspiracy monger. He nearly destroyed the family several times waiting for the next collapse. The trick is to be prepared without getting wrapped up in the worry mongering. There are two mistakes to be made with history: assuming that a societal collapse won’t happen to you and the other, equally important, assuming that it will. Idiots are found on both sides of that spectrum.

    @Annoymous,

    There are many reasons for Russia’s decline. Out of control divorce. Abortion. Alcoholism. The assault on the Church’s. If you are fleeing America for moral safety in Russia you are running the wrong way. Poland maybe…but not Russia. Dobry dojazd (if I got that right).

    @GB4M,

    Quoting the same verse a bazillion times complete with copyright notices is noise. We don’t get large quotes from Jesus repeating some bit of the Torah twenty times (and I’m positive he left the non-relevant material out when he read from the scroll of Isaiah). If there is let me know _where_ and I will hence forth modify how I discuss the Bible. I also find it more than a little amusing that you are keen at coming at me for being the second coming of Satan when we have people here gleefully hoping that half the population Christ died for debase itself. Again I am amazed at whether or not anyone actually _read_ Dalrcok’s last post. Anyone?

  139. greyghost says:

    From what I keep reading about Russia and Putin…I tell you it’s looking like a better place to live than America. Try saying that as recently as 20 years ago.

    Putin is looking at the manosphere blogs from the west. I bet the chinese are

  140. greyghost says:

    Preparing for the collapse should be done in such a way that you have the personal ability to thrive with or with out a collapse. The conversations and ideas and projections from all of the men her will give an idea of what approach one can take in his own best interest.

  141. Martian Bachelor says:

    Sometimes I feel like I am in the Weird Zone. They see good as evil and evil as good, and that’s all while believing that there is no such thing as evil and good. (alcestiseshtemoa)

    The following also contains the answer to the “bitterness” issue:

    But now the world is turned upside down;
    The good do evil, the hope’s in criminals; in vice
    That dissolves the cities and war to destroy them.
    Through wars and corruptions the house will fall.
    Mourn whom it falls on. Be glad: the house is mined, it will fall.

    Robinson Jeffers (from The Broken Balance)

  142. Danger says:

    For what it’s worth, the pay-gap does not exist when you control for hours worked and job choices….

    In fact, women earn more than men do now.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read

  143. They Call Me Tom says:

    I don’t see where there is to go really, if western civilization should collapse. I always liked the ending to ‘Farenheit 451’ as the way to go, to find the place beyond the cares of the collapsing civilization, but first a lot of people need to learn how to live without Big Brother and the present versions of Big Brother seem to be too obsessed to leave any stone unturned (sorry to mix stories). Unfortunately there isn’t a lot that I’ve been able to glean from early medieval history. I do suspect though, whenever another Renaissance comes, it’ll be the rediscovery of the thinking of the late 18th century, perhaps with appendixes including the writings of Frederic Bastiat and G.K. Chesterton.

  144. Ton says:

    You should spend your time rescuing “maidens” and let me worry about me

  145. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ton

    It’s the spunky princess who insists she doesn’t need help.

  146. Pingback: Links and Comments #6 | The Society of Phineas

  147. Jack says:

    Did you see Feminism on full display tight here? Hilarious

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/opinion/brazile-princeton-alum/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter

    Love to see what dakeock thought of this one

  148. LisainVermont says:

    Well this should convince all men to:
    1) Wear a condom at all times if they are not married, even if the woman claims to be on the pill. Why risk creating a child you will be financially responsible for the next two decades?

    2) Force your fiancee to sign a pre-nup. No signature; no wedding. The governor in our state didn’t have one. His divorce was finalized this week. He has to give his wife $1 million within 30 days and $10,000 a month after that. Oh, and he has to cough up another $2 million by 2022. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130403/NEWS03/304030017/Gov-Shumlin-s-divorce-finalized?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

  149. Ton says:

    Is that what it says in your captain save a ho guild?

  150. LisainVermont says:

    Ooops. Meant to post the above under Dalrock’s post about the rise of illegitimacy and frivorce.

  151. Opus says:

    @Lisa in Vermont

    These is even less chance of persuading Heterosexual men to wear Condoms at all times than there is Homosexual men, and frankly – though one cannot neceessarily expect a woman to understand this – the passion of young men is so great their lust overcomes them; and for what it is worth, using a condom is for a man like wearing a sock – trust me on both assertions.

    As for pre-Nuptial agreements – and I leave aside the fact that in my jurisdction they do not have the weight of law, beyond being evidenciary of the parties intentions at the time of marriage – most men marry young when neither party has any money. It is no more likely that young people will enter into pre-Nuptial agreements or even pre-Cohabitation agreements (if there is such a thing) than that they will then make Their Last Will and Testament.

  152. Cane Caldo says:

    @Ton

    “Is that what it says in your captain save a ho guild?”

    See, I thought you were earlier being ironic. You have made a serious error in judgment of my purposes. I’m here to help the emotional hos. By far, in today’s society that means men.

  153. Connie says:

    @Mark Mintner “Name me one famous, noteworthy, celebrated Male couple that is attempting to have a child and raise it and it is celebrated by the press. Even one!”

    Sir Elton John and his partner David Furnish.

    @GBFM – You need help.

  154. an observer says:

    Endorsement by the press? That bunch of illiterate shills?

  155. an observer says:

    Whilst i’m throwing darts, here’s another classic.

    We know women are the gatekeepers of sex, that hypergamy befuddles assortative mating and there is no empathy for dateles beta men.

    So when a woman falls off the carousel, instead of bemoaning poor choices, the smart contemporary media tart writes a book, celebrating her declining smp:

    http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/real-life/i-went-12-years-without-sex-20130417-2hzc0.html

    Presumably this is the sort of cultural spearhead that modern liberalism celebrates for its innovative approach to the problems created by the matriarchy.

  156. an observer says:

    Here is a nice summary of the press:

    “nothing more than the disinformation arm of government. Its purpose is to convince the general public that their votes matter. They don’t. The left-right paradigm is deceptive and the worst kind of fiction, the kind people believe and act upon. No better example exists than George W. Bush and Barrack Obama. They are the same person with the same beliefs and the same policies. They are both self-interested, self-important minions of those in control. For power and money they have trashed the Bill of Rights, fomented war, destroyed what was left of the free market, catered to the über-wealthy and their banks, thrown bones to the poor and the working, and have dutifully preserved the status quo. Yet, even in the face of their abject in-your-face sameness, the press has been successful in moderating the pathetic pseudo-confrontation between right and left. The only real difference between right and left is how they offer up socialism – via a fascistic or communistic bent.”

    With thanks to Jim Karger for spelling it out.

  157. They Call Me Tom says:

    I don’t see Russia as being the place to go to. While muslim fanatics need to make some effort to get into Mexico and then walk across the border carefree… they need only walk across the border to get into Russia. The other portion of their border is shared with China. As grim as the future might look in the US, it looks grimmer in Russia. The world is filled with corrupt governments, I think the only place one might go should he US finish it’s decent into the third world, is to find a country big enough with a leader that only wants to control things that come within his sight and doesn’t need to control every thing that might cross his imagination. I don’t know where that place is though.

  158. Michael says:

    @ They Call me Tom

    Disagree.

    Russia is looking more and more like the last hope for traditional Christian morality and family values. They are the only nation that has consistently stood up to the United States and it’s allies.

    Today Russia looks like a free country compared to the United States and it’s socialist Western Allies. The West has continued a relentless agenda of destabilization against Russia on all fronts. Currently this involves pointing missiles at them , strengthening NATO, and of course making sure key elements of our modern Western value systems, such as feminism and homosexuality are forcefully integrated.

    I observed how the Sochi Olympics were hijacked by gay agenda. You could not turn on the TV in The U.S. or European countries without hearing constant non-stop interruptions reminding everyone about Russia’s recent so called “anti human rights” “anti gay” “gay propaganda law” and how ‘evil’ Putin was signing it. There was of course, little to no mention that Russia’s gay propaganda law was specifically aimed at protecting children and minors.

    The entire Olympics became about homosexuality. It was all about Russia’s violations of “human rights” redefined by the new de-facto morality of the United States. This is redefined morality your children will be soft-forcefully indoctrinated into in the United States. But not in Russia or it’s former satellite countries.

    Take a look at this amazing letter published by a mainstream news editor in one of Georgia’s mainstream media outlets. It’s an amazing and inspiring read.

    http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/65554.htm

    If a mainstream media editor in the U.S. published this (or something like it) they would be FIRED and escorted out of the building by their former media colleagues. Even an everyday person like you or I could lose our jobs over such a candid letter. That is how far the situation has gone in the U.S.. Even churches will side step these issues. Not in Russia.

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