A wife’s best defense against a troublesome mother-in-law.

Not all mother-in-laws are troublesome, but when they are troublesome they are a great source of frustration for wives.   Most wives who face this problem try to solve it by putting pressure on their husband to intervene. Wives can bring a great deal of pressure to bear on their husbands in the form of denial of sex and threatened divorce, but in this case their go-to solution is shockingly ineffective.

Ironically the reason wives find themselves powerless against their mother-in-laws is their having taken on the power position in the marriage.  Once they did this they created a de facto matriarchy.  As the more senior member of the clan the mother-in-law outranks the wife.  Putting pressure on the husband doesn’t work in this situation because the husband isn’t acting as the leader and protector of his household;  he is trying to placate two women who are effectively in positions of authority over him.  The mother-in-law will sense this even if she couldn’t articulate it.  When her son requests that she change her behavior the mother-in-law sees him for what he is;  he is a messenger from the wife, whom the mother-in-law outranks.

The solution is simple;  the wife needs to relinquish the position of head of household and cede that position to her husband.  This means she needs to abandon her tools of manipulation over her husband, not ratchet them up.  This will take some time and effort, and there are simple steps a wife can take to encourage her husband to start taking on the role of leader and protector.

The solution isn’t foolproof, but it is extremely effective.  Nearly all men are highly protective of those they lead, and if they see themselves as head of the household they will start to naturally see themselves as their wife’s protector.  The mother-in-law will also sense the change, and since the husband is now acting under his own natural authority she will take him seriously in a way she never did with the wife or when she saw him as the wife’s ambassador.

My wife has given this advice to married women in her circle, and while most were aghast at the idea of allowing their husband to lead the ones who followed the advice were amazed at the results.  In many cases the mother-in-law not only ultimately settled down, but became downright pleasant to the daughter-in-law.  In one case the formerly at odds mother-in-law and daughter-in-law now actually enjoy each other’s company so much they regularly go shopping and to lunch together.

Patriarchy or matriarchy:  take your pick.

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234 Responses to A wife’s best defense against a troublesome mother-in-law.

  1. Lori says:

    I always tell the women I mentor to love their mother-in-laws, heaping burning coals upon their heads…overcoming evil with good. Since we are called to love our enemies, surely this must mean to love, truly love, our mother-in-laws and when you love a difficult one, you bring God glory.

  2. GeeBee says:

    Make sure that you’re careful when you pick your wife or the husband’s mother-in-law can also be a problem.


  3. Miserman says:

    I would say that reason the mother-in-law settles down and becomes pleasant to the wife is that they now both share in the status as victims under a man’s authority, in this case the husband / son. Common victimhood draws women together.

  4. A Northern Observer says:

    a protective husband = a victim wife?!?

    LOL! What a sad household you must live in!

  5. SarahsDaughter says:

    Unfortunately what you’ve said is too often true. MILs can become one more source and outlet of gossip and complaining. I am blessed with a wonderful MIL, yet every now and then is prone to playing the martyr and doesn’t control herself from speaking negatively about the men in our lives. I now treat her just as anyone else in my life. I control the conversation and do not entertain gossip or complaining. And I no longer speak disrespectfully about my husband to her. While she has tremendous wisdom and is a Godly woman – she is a woman and tempted to go down the misery loves company road. I now enjoy her wisdom not by asking her what she would do (and inadvertantly making her privy to our circumstances) but by observation of how she lives with her husband.

  6. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I grew up with critical parents, and very quickly learned to ignore their little jabs and barbs to the extent that they didn’t have a direct affect on me. Harsh awakening #6 was when a girlfriend asked me whether my parents liked her and I (naively, I swear) said no, because X, Y, Z. Hey, I didn’t care, so why would she, right?

    The fallout from that was a learning experience. At the point I chose a fiance, I sat both parents down and explained to them that if they wanted to continue having a son that would acknowledge them, they would not speak word one criticizing their future daughter-in-law (this was before they had even met her). To this day, I have no idea what they think of her, and provided they continue keeping a civil tongue, I don’t much care.

  7. @Cautiously Pessimistic

    At the point I chose a fiance, I sat both parents down and explained to them that if they wanted to continue having a son that would acknowledge them, they would not speak word one criticizing their future daughter-in-law (this was before they had even met her).

    A ballsy and protective stance, although not without its risks. Most men in this age have a tough time sorting the Jezebels from the Marys. Parents and (male) friends are generally a more reliable source of input than the rose-colored spectacles that somehow seem to find themselves on even the most cautious of men in this day and age.

    I know for a fact my mother had my two worst girlfriends pegged long before things went pear-shaped. She didn’t say anything because she didn’t want to rock the boat. Arranged marriages have typically been the norm for societies and experienced less failure than the modern chase of “the one.” Even most marriages today are “arranged” in some fashion as few people would willfully marry people their parents hate.

  8. Cautiously Pessimistic says:


    My mother is a man-hating feminist, and my father is a Soviet-loving statist. They have (and had) amply demonstrated a singular lack of good judgement during my formative years and beyond on matters ranging from politics, relationships, finances, etc. The best I can say about them is they are ignorant, rather than evil.

    But I’ll grant that most parents are not quite that bad and their judgement can be a valuable resource.

  9. Captain Jack says:

    Interesting problem I really never had it from my mother to my wife it just was not an option on the menu. My wife’s mother, my mother-in-law, was a problem in the beginning but she eventually gave up due to me removing her from our life for a time but mostly from me failing to react or acknowledge her antics.

    Oddly that same woman seems to like me now. Game. Who knew it would on a mother-in-law.

  10. GKChesteron says:

    Fascinating. Never had the problem, but never had good advise for those that did.

  11. A Northern Observer says:

    @Captian Jack:
    Game. Who knew it would on a mother-in-law.

    It also works on mothers that forget they’re dealing with adult males instead of kids.

  12. ABM says:

    Interestingly enough, Indian culture has a lot of strife between the mother-in-laws and their sons’ wives. This is depicted in Bollywood movies, TV soap operas, etc. Makes one wonder how much of Indian society is actually a matriarchy.

  13. LisainVermont says:

    This has certainly helped my relationship with my mother in law. We don’t have much in common and I don’t think she was crazy about me when dh and I were married 16 years ago. But, she’s warmed up to me over time and frequently refers to how well I take care of dh.

    She’ll brag to her neighbors that I’m her only daughter-in-law who cooks dinner every night. When my husband hit a milestone birthday recently and I threw a party and did all of the cooking she made a point of coming into the kitchen and saying that she appreciates how hard I try to make him happy.

  14. I’ve seen this dynamic played out in person. A woman from a fairly traditional, patriarchal background married a guy from a matriarchal family where the men kept quiet and let the women run everything. His mother began inserting herself into their lives, especially once they had children and she had opinions on what the children should have. The wife resisted the urge to battle the mother-in-law personally, and worked on her husband to be more take-charge about things. It took years, but he came around to being much less passive, and his mother backed off at the same time. I don’t think mother and daughter-in-law have become great friends or anything, but the boundaries are in the right place now.

  15. Natalie says:

    I dunno – I’d say the reason why the wives are powerless is that there’s a power vacuum in the marriage. Can’t get anywhere if the rudder is broken.

    As for the wife’s actions – if the MIL is in the wife’s house then the wife should calmly ask her to follow the house rules (ie no questioning parenting decisions in front of the kids or no smoking in the den or whatever). If the MIL is a real bitch and tries to pit husband against wife then the wife has the option of running errands or visiting a friend. Unruly people don’t get the hostesses undivided attention, and they don’t get to stir up trouble. One (almost) always has the option to simply remove oneself instead of engaging in power plays. If the wife is at the MIL’s house she needs to deal (yeah, easier said than done – especially when my FIL is getting on my nerves). Don’t engage in power struggles. Do excuse yourself (and the kids) to go outside/to the park/for a story if the MIL is attempting to create trouble. It’s entirely possible to stand up for yourself (and model deferring to your husband as head of the family) without resorting to manipulation. It won’t necessarily make your husband grow a spine, but taking the high road means you’re less likely to be another nagging shrew insisting he do “the right thing” and might just possibly incline him to support the more reasonable faction.

  16. Natalie says:


    I’ve heard plenty of manosphere comments about severely restricting woman. On the other flip-side this means that societal/legal expectations for men have to be raised. Men should have far more authority and respect than they do currently (parental rights, marriage, workplace environment, etc), but this will also mean that they end up with more responsibility. In custody cases this is pretty straightforward – men are being held responsible for children over whom they have little authority. What I would like to see is the manosphere address the implications for carrying this over into other areas of life. If this has already been done I would love to read about it.

  17. goodfoot says:

    They already have the responsibility, especially in regards to parental rights. The corresponding authority has been taken away.

  18. AmStrat says:

    Yep, restoring Men’s authority would not entail an increase in responsibility because…

    The responsibility’s already there!

  19. ballista74 says:

    Natalie, much of that has already been done in numerous ways. The catch is that your premise really doesn’t work – Men already have all the responsibility and women have all the authority. The solution is going to be for each to give up some of those things. However, the problem is solely with the women in this one. They won’t give up any of the authority they have or take any responsibility in a million years. Hence, you would have to force them to do this in order to solve the issue. Hence, “severe legal restrictions”.

  20. Chris says:

    There is a triple generation problem here. I’ll work it out by MIL age.

    70s: the last pre 60s generation, and generally decent people. I better say that. My Mum could be reading 🙂

    60s: she’s a boomer. Probably a feminist. Expects the wifey to do all the things she could not like have a career and do it all.
    50s: Late boomer // early Gen X. These women tried to have it all. They now do have it all, a job, frail parents, and Teenagers/Twenties at home (on and off). These women are tired. Some have gone quite red pillish and give good advice. Others have doubled down on having it all, dammit. The latter are often divorced and often enmeshed in their kids lives. Avoid the latter

    40s. Gen X. Resentful that they did not have a career (to be this age and a MIL, they would have had kids in their 20s) unlike their successful sisters (who now live with cats). More likely to be divorced. More likely to be bitter about it. The younger ones may be crunchy traditionalists. Much more difficult, on the whole.

    30s. Run. If her Mum is that young, it spells very young breeding and that generally involves chaos.

  21. an observer says:

    “On the other flip-side this means that societal/legal expectations for men have to be raised…”

    Oh, really?

  22. BC says:

    Oh, really?

    Yeah, Man Up, don’tcha know?

  23. Elusive Wapiti says:

    @ Natalie

    “On the other flip-side this means that societal/legal expectations for men have to be raised.”

    In a limited number of cases, perhaps.

    Men are held responsible in the current social framework through three primary mechanisms:
    1) Alimony
    2) Chalimony
    3) Redistributive taxation

    Women have nearly completely abrogated their half of the Grand Bargain…submitting to sexual control…with the advent of the aptly named Women’s Lib. They were free to ‘express their sexuality’, as the euphemism for promiscuity goes.

    For their part, men have enjoyed some success at backing out of their half as well, insofar as they avoid the alimony/chalimony traps by (a) dodging marriage, (b) maintaining control of their seed (i.e., ‘sperm surety’), as and by minimizing the income they earn that is subject to seizure and redistribution by Uncle Sam(antha)’s tax collectors.

    People see a cohort of slacker men who fail to launch and (some) who service the Carousel. What most (men and women both) fail to realize is that such slackherhood–failing to ‘man up’–is a perfectly rational response to an environment where the bulk of women are failing to ‘woman up’…by submitting to sexual controls that prescribe chastity until marriage, fidelity until death, and copious amounts of congress in between.

  24. Elusive Wapiti says:

    @ D,

    “A wife’s best defense against a troublesome mother-in-law.”

    Selection plays a role here too, methinks.

    A wife’s best defense against troublesome MILs is to screen for men whose mothers are themselves submissive and not matriarchs.

    And then, when it is their time to be the stereotypical MIL….don’t.

    My experience (sample size = 2) is that the wife’s mother is of far greater concern. Such a person can either be a man’s biggest ally in holding the marriage together, or one of his worst enemies, turning the screw of doubt and contempt and division at every opportunity. I suspect that even the most stalwart and principled wives would crack after being worked on for a decade by a mother who doesn’t hesitate to let her daughter know that she thinks her little girl made a bad choice.

  25. I’d say the reason why the wives are powerless is that there’s a power vacuum in the marriage. Can’t get anywhere if the rudder is broken.

    No Natalie, you are framing this in terms of the wife’s subjective view about the rudder being broken. From little things ( and more little things) to big things she is constantly worrying about being in control and assuming there is no rudder. The reason the boat is swerving all about is because every time he lets go of it to go bail the leaking water out to keep her safe, she grabs the dang thing and turns, then when he is at the rudder, she is busy picking at the leaky hole trying to patch it and is making it bigger, all the while she is alternately thing “he isnt steering / he isn’t fixing that leak”. Add 5 million things to that list and her running around tending to them or checking that he has, and you will see why she says there is no rudder. If she’s lay back and enjoy the sunshine the boat ride would be smooth and dry. Hubby is glad to tend to all those things. He is not glad to be micromanaged in doing so.

    Its a good deal for women, but they cannot imagine just accepting what is one of mens prime directives….to make them happy. Instead of seeing his allowing her to sit back and ride and being happy, she confuses happiness with him jumping to her whims to make her feel some thing that even she cannot describe, but calls it “safe”.

  26. Men should have far more authority and respect than they do currently (parental rights, marriage, workplace environment, etc), but this will also mean that they end up with more responsibility.

    This seems logical, but I’m having trouble thinking of an area where men should have more responsibility. Since you brought it up, can you give an example?

    I just thought of one: religion. As churches have become feminized, women have taken over the role of spiritual leader at church and at home, while their men have become uninvolved. In many families today, Mom drags Dad and the kids (or just the kids) to church on Sundays, and if any praying goes on at home, she directs it. So if women are put back “in their place,” men will have to step up and become spiritual leaders again, taking their families to church and being their spiritual teachers and prayer leaders at home.

    That’s the only area I can think of where men aren’t already assigned the bulk of the responsibility, whether they want it or not. Any others?

  27. Having recently lost my mother, and having a wife that really put up with a lot, though not in the interference sense, I can say that two things fixed their relationship.
    As Dalrock says, when my wife gave over to relax and be lead and all but eliminated to constant murmur of challenging me (because my mother was very perceptive to that)
    My wife simply decided to love my mother unconditionally, which I admit could be hard to do.

    They ended up as close as any daughter-in-law MIL can be, no small feat since I was only child son of single mother.
    Wife’s you have to make that work. There are few excuses to not doing your part.

  28. Draggin says:

    @Dalrock: “Patriarchy or Matriarchy: Take your pick”

    This really jumped out at me. This should be one of the leading arguments against feminism. In aggregate, wouldn’t most people entrust their future well-being in their personal lives (financial security, emotional stability, shelter) to their father than their mother if they had to make that choice? If so, then shouldn’t that same choice apply to their society? Of course, this still assumes rational thought process regarding long term consequences, so it is probably a non-starter for women, but it may be a good eye-opener for men.

    One of the counters to the partiarchy vs matriarchy debate is the concept of 100% equalism of course. However, even at the scale of a business relationship they warn against that. Two partners in a business need to have different skill sets, not equal skill sets, and one will always need to have the tie breaking vote to avoid an impasse.

  29. mackPUA says:

    Dalrock hits it on the head, choose patriarchy & rights of men = morals & ethics for the greater good of society & family

    Matriarchy gives you delusional loony tunes women … never underestimate the brutality of a feral female family towards their husbands & children, ie abortion & frivorce

    Notice its feral women in african families who routinely circumcise womens clitori, because women who enjoy orgasms from men, are a threat to their aging decrepit vaginas …

    & feral women in the west who circumcise mens genitals

    Its also feral women who mutilate themselves,

    By slicing the innards of their breasts out & replacing the innards of their tits, with silicone & other toxic substances

    The grizzly & barbaric ways, women in the U.S mutilate themselves is innumerable

    Its ridiculous how women accuse muslim religions, while their own deranged women mutilate themselves in the millions

    Scooping out the innards of their breasts,

    Then theirs mutilation via liposuction,

    Disfigurement through plastic surgery

    This is what a matriarchy looks like, women disfiguring & hideous grizzly painful operations, to compete with other women

    Keep that shit out of your marriage, at all costs, ie displays of placing your husbands needs first,

    Men need logical reasons to lead, blatantly put his needs first & you’ll see him grow as a husband & the born leader he is

    Unless you enjoy seeing white women performing grizzly operations, on their breasts & scooping the innards of their stomachs & asses, to compete in their feral primitive matriarchial state …

    Keep your family masculine & patriarchial, put your mans needs & rights first & you automatically put the greater good of your family & society first …

  30. taterearl says:

    Matriarchy gives you PC langauage, thought crime, and you don’t dare offend women by telling them their debauchery is bad. Her feelings are more important than morals and values.

  31. And in a business partnership you also need to have the IBYYBM, I buy you, you buy me. Thats how you deal with errant viewpoints. The relational equivalent is IDY I divorce you.

  32. Martian Bachelor says:

    One of the many things not taught younger women anymore is to chose their MILs carefully, because their daughters are likely to turn out a lot like her.

    This follows from the way children develop. A girl’s most significant parent in terms of personality development is her father, and his prime example of what a woman is is his mother, the girl’s paternal grandmother and the mother/wife’s MIL.

    The parallel advice to men would be to pick a FIL who they like/respect, because the man’s sons are likely to be a lot like him in important ways years down the road.

    Consideration for such facts of life used to be built-in to the way patriarchy did courtship, so it bears emphasizing in these post-patriarchal times.

    Needless to say, the whole system breaks down rapidly and thoroughly when fatherhood is criminalized by Divorce 2.0 and fathers are expelled by force from families by mom and Uncle Sugar.

  33. Piroko says:

    Martian Bachelor: “The parallel advice to men would be to pick a FIL who they like/respect, because the man’s sons are likely to be a lot like him in important ways years down the road.”

    Men are just flat out better at being casually civil. You don’t have to like, respect, or empathize with someone to be civil, and remaining civil is all that’s expected when dealing with extended family.

    There are no ancient epics where women bury the hatchet; the whole “I hate you and everything you stand for but I grit my teeth and deal with it” trope is a characteristic of men.

  34. greenlander says:

    This is wholly off-topic… but there was an interesting article today in The Economist about the decline of divorce in England.

  35. 8oxer says:


    That was pretty interesting. If I’m reading the article correctly, the decline in divorce is driven by a decline in marriages among the working class generally. There’s also a related decline in births to unmarrieds, who I assume to be largely working class, since upper class people still seem to be marrying.

    This is a trend which is likely starting (or going to start) in North America also. An awful lot of the kids I see running around are unattached, by their own preference.

  36. Dropit says:

    The last part of the article is utter bunk. “Crime continues to decline, for example”? Seriously? That’s it? Mountains of evidence of the importance of a father in the home, brushed aside so casually.

  37. Mark Minter says:

    This comment is a little off thread but given the events of the week and the pertinence to Dalrock readers.

    It would seem that Catholics that fear for their church in the long term have less to fear with the election from Pope Francis. He seems to me to understand the actions to undertake to get the church through this time of scandal and public outcry. He appears to be open to the necessary reform of church and dogma to renew the church in this time of trouble.

    While I haven’t read a great deal about the new pope, his philosophies, and background, I caught a few statements that I thought might signal to Dalrock readers about the directions the new pope might take and how he understands that the true base of the power within the modern Catholic church should have its spiritual needs meet.

    On Thursday, the new Pope warned the Church would become “a compassionate NGO [non-governmental organisation]” without spiritual renewal – “just as when children make sand castles and then it all falls down”.

    In a sermon to Argentine priests, he attacked those who would not baptise children of single mothers. “Those who separate the people of God from salvation. These are today’s hypocrites.”

    Yes, this appears to me to be a pope that understands the world as it is, and as it will be. The church has been rocked to its core with the scandals that dominate headlines today.

    And by recognizing the true power within the church, especially those who best can assure the renewal of the church by instilling the faith, the values, and practices of the church in those children that are the future, by calling for a spiritual renewal through a worldwide evangelism to reach out to those that would need the blessing and sacrament of the church, a church that eschews the patriarchial “clericalization”, a church that condemns those hypocrites that are so rigid that they would refuse baptism and the sacraments to those have acted in ways that go against “rigid” patriarchial interpretation of church pertaining to premarital sex and annulments…..

    then the church can best weather the storm of scandal and assure its future as something more than a mere “Compassionate NGO”.

  38. earl says:

    @ Mark…

    Baptizing the kids of single mothers doesn’t reward the mother for her promiscuity…it is for the child’s sake for salvation. In fact I would find it noble a mother would do that for her kid knowing what type of judgement is coming…at least she’s thinking about the child’s well being. Besides the kid didn’t decide how it was chosen to come into the world…so he’s right about priests taking away salvation from people.

  39. Mark Minter says:

    I read the article in the Economist. I checked to see whether a man or a woman wrote it but there is no author listed. Usually female authors tend to take a more “positive” and encouraging stance on marriage. I think this is a female author because she made references to “having babies” as opposed to “having children” or “giving birth” and I don’t think a male author would have painted such a “rosy”, even though ambiguous picture.

    One would need to be somewhat “Dalrockized” to truly understand what those statistics are saying because there are sub-statistics involved in all the data this article quoted.

    If a carousel rider, has a degree, she might have been able to find a beta provider and get off the carousel. Note that hypergamy is at play here. The author infers that the “upper classes” are returning or upholding more traditional value:

    “The first, well-to-do, group has largely held to old-fashioned ideas about marriage. Among professionals, births within marriage are four times as common as births where the father is registered as absent from the household—a proportion that has hardly changed in the past decade. And in some ways the upper middle classes are coming to seem more orthodox.”

    This statement is also what makes me think a woman wrote the article with the references to “orthodox values”. The hypergamistic carousel rider found a high income provider beta, and she is now sinking the hook. Steve Moxon in “The Women Racket” details that British women really do not want to work. The degree path for them was really about gaining access to high status males. So our “strong and independent” college graduate latched on someone, “senior managers or professional husbands”, and now is having children

    “Their fertility is rising, points out Ann Berrington, a demographer at the University of Southampton. Women married to senior managers or professional husbands now wait until they are almost 33 years old before having a child—four years longer than women married to less well-off husbands. As young upper-middle-class women entered university in large numbers in the 1990s, birth rates and marriage rates dropped as children were put off in favour of careers. They are now making up for lost time.”

    Notice also “Their fertility is rising”, not, “they are getting pregnant”. She infers that some sort of deferred “fertility” is occurring as those women spent their 20s in university and in getting merit badges and now at 33 ( Does that age ring a bell with Dalrock readers?), after nailing down the higher income beta provider, she gets pregnant, cementing her permanence in the pocket of the man, using the last ounces of SMV to secure provisioning. Divorce among this groups is lower because the options of finding a higher paid male given her age and child and the slim pickings available in Britain today among high wage earnets. The workplace during the 2008-2013 downturn got a little dog eat dog, a lot less “cool lunches in spiffy places with fun people” and lot more “dog eat dog”. British women are learning the “work thing” was a big con job and now she has a way out of it using that baby as the ticket. So despite everything written about marriage and the reality of it, “Betas gonna beta”. Yet be aware, despite this rosy picture of orthodoxy in the upper middle class, there is still 20% of the children to women without husbands. So even among professional women, there is probably some 30 somethings springing “baby traps”, Liz Jones “sperm stealers”.

    Another thing to keep in mind is the comments from other manosphere blogs. The guys from Britain have little to say that is good about the typical British woman and join in the chorus with American men about the women being fat, disgusting, drunken sluts, are often are some of the loudest singers. So this has an effect of adding to a scarcity model for attractive women and enhancing their bargaining position with potential beta provider males. So when a high income beta man is constantly surround by fat, disgusting, pigs, and an even slightly attractive former “rider” puts the full court press on him, he is more apt to fall prey to it.

    So then among the working class women, again hypergamy is at play. Marriage has dropped from 53% in 2001 to 44% today. Those women just can’t find men to “man up” and earn the income she deserves. Also notice this woman’s statistic.

    ” A study by the Resolution Foundation, a think-tank, found that between 1968 and 2008 women accounted for three times more of working class families’ income growth than men. Coupled with a more generous welfare system, this has made women far less dependent on a man’s income to raise children.”

    The British women earned very little in 1968. And there has no real income gains among the British working class men since that time. Women entered the workforce in numbers in the 1970s and according to Mockey, even then, the vast majority of growth among female workers was in part-time work. And the “generous welfare system” is an alpha proxy as well are all aware. So basically our working class woman, or more correctly, our woman who was not able to nail down a high income man, is eschewing marriage to a lower income man or being eschewed by men because she is fat, drunken slut.

    The third category that author mentions is immigrant families. The author states that this is the driving group behind the birthrate in Britain. And my analysis of data in America says the same thing was true here. I say “was”, because since 2007, that birthrate among foreign born women has plummeted in America. And the same is beginning to happen in Britain.

    “Still, foreigners and ethnic minorities seem to be gradually converging on white British norms. They are marrying less, divorcing more and having fewer children.”

    IN 2006, Steve Mockey released a book called “The Immigration Racket” and it led to quite a shakeup in the government in 2007 and some less favorable policies towards immigration, benefits for immigrant men, etc. I would say the fortunes of immigrant men in England has been less fortuitous during the economic turn down.

    And immigrant women, like British women, have learned that having a vagina has more upside than having a lower income husband. It can be traded for cash and prizes that far exceed the benefits a lower income husband could provide. And the low status imposed on the foolish woman who would marry such a man can be readily avoided. She gains no status from work and a mini-skirt and some high heels gives our girl all the status she needs to get by.

    And while this author paints an ambiguous picture and tries to leave the reader with somewhat rosy image of the state of the “union” in Britain, I see Britain in the same state as America, falling rates of marriage in an ever increasing percentage lower paid people, experiencing a demographic bubble of births in the upper income brackets and in the unmarried lower income immigrant groups adding pressure to welfare expenditures.

  40. Mark Minter says:


    I agree. Please notice I tried to word my statement carefully. But I did do so in a way that would signal to a typical reader of this blog the directions that could be expected from the church.

    But what I did notice that in a Reuters article, of all the things that could be said about a new pope, these things are what were printed, and I assumed released to Reuters by the Vatican Press office. I mean, this is Reuters, possibly the largest international news agency.

    I am sure the biggest question among Catholics when a new pope is elected is how shall he interpret (I don’t know a better word to use here, so please excuse the use) “dogma”, what direction he will go. When the prior pope was elected, it was interpreted that he was more conservative and would have less tolerance of “Activist” priests that tended to have a more Marxist leaning, particularly in Central and Latin America. And there seemed to be a lot less stories of these sorts of radical priests preaching income and land redistribution in Latin America over the last 8 years.

    I would never have even read anything into those statements included in the article and would have thought completely, especially as a Protestant, that, of course, those babies should be baptized. Heck, I used to live in Boulder. We even baptized Kitties in Boulder., and horses, dogs, gerbils, and even Hamsters.

    But recent comments by Catholic readers that hinted to the accommodation of the Church to annulments, divorce, and single mothers, caused me to interpret that of all things that the church could say at this time, in the first days, after the election of a pope, they chose to say “We are not going to separate People of God from Salvation”, with a special mention of the children of single mothers, meaning women who had a child outside of marriage after engaging in premarital sex. This tells me that there will be a policy of accommodation towards women and tolerance of lifestyles and modes of behavior that are antagonistic to the true intent of the scripture.

    It’s one thing to do it, to baptize those children, but for it to be the first message, that this Pope, this Latin American pope, the place where the Catholic church still has the greatest influence in the daily affairs of people, intends get out among the people with an evangelizing “Come home” message, a message that says “God understands” and the church is here to do God’s will and administer to the spiritual needs of its people and do not let your past keep you from the church. It is a way of saying “We have sinned also. We have not been perfect in any way, shape, or form. If you forgive us then we shall help you find the forgiveness you seek also.

    I agree with him. At this time, with this church under the attack that it is under, it has to take this course.

    But do not expect this church to take a firm line with women and compel them to honor vows and follow the letter of church law to be able to receive the sacraments.

  41. Natalie says:

    Hey, sorry – traveling. Didn’t get a chance to answer before now. Ok, so right now men largely have financial responsibilities imposed on them by the state. Love your kids but Mom won’t let you see them? Pay through the nose. Want kids and your wife aborts them? Pay through the nose. There is responsibility of a sort (financial obligations/slavery) without any corresponding authority to validate or energize male responsibility. You are responsible for seeing that “mom” has a state mandated supply of money. You aren’t (often/primarily) responsible for your children’s welfare in a direct tangible way (ie discipline, affection, teaching, etc). So I guess what I’m saying is that male responsibility has largely been reduced to the financial vector. If women are restricted in sphere then men will have to take on responsibility in areas that our current legal environment says are for women (ie default wife custody means default presumption that female discipline is better).

    And I’m just talking about domestic responsibility here. What happens to women restricted from the workforce or certain segments of it? How do we treat the spinster, the widow, the orphan? Are they thrown on the state? Are they the subjects of a familial paternalism (a la the spinster aunt living with her brother’s family)? If we strictly limit the franchise that will have other repercussions (many positive I acknowledge). If we limit women’s legal access (explicitly or tacitly) that will create other situations where men have to act for women. Right now women have tremendous power to destroy men’s lives. If you flip the script men will have tremendous power to destroy women’s lives, and my main concern is that this is power that modern men don’t have practice wielding. On balance I would say that men have a much better track record – I don’t buy the “all women were oppressed before Wollstonecraft/Stanton/3rd wave feminism” at all. I pretty much always trust a man in power more than a woman because that’s just the created order. And yet when God brings judgement on a nation we see lots of sluts and men behaving badly. The women need corralling, but that doesn’t mean that this generation of men is necessarily read to do that.

  42. Anon says:

    Sorry…jumping in here.

    I find it interesting that blame is so reflexively placed on the mother-in-law. I’ve met so many kind, loving, reasonable women who feel that they have to walk on eggshells around their sons’ wives. In my experience, daughters-in-law are usually far nastier to their husbands’ parents than vice versa (I should note that I’m a mother of very young children, so I’m not speaking from personal bias.), and as you indicate, I think it has a lot to do with power.

    Women tend to be irrationally jealous of any connections their husbands had prior to their relationship, whether they were with parents, siblings, or friends. To my mind, it’s completely unfair to ask a man to give up his bond with his family, while women can call their parents multiple times a day without raising an eyebrow. Yes, I know the Bible says, “A man shall leave his mother and father, etc., etc.,” but nowhere does it say, “But a woman may remain as close to her family of origin as she likes” or “The mother’s family has first dibs on the grandchildren while the father’s must remain second-class relatives who tiptoe gingerly around the mother’s sensitivities.”

    If you love your husband, you owe love and respect to the woman who helped him become who he is, and you should honor his bond with her.

  43. earl says:

    “But what I did notice that in a Reuters article, of all the things that could be said about a new pope, these things are what were printed, and I assumed released to Reuters by the Vatican Press office.”

    Hard to say…the Vatican could have mentioned that…or it could have been history they dug up. I take the media with a grain of salt since they are the megaphone of Satan. If they find something that agrees with their agenda (the feminine imperative), they’ll highlight it.

  44. Pingback: Lightning Round – 2013/03/20 | Free Northerner

  45. k says:

    my sister was a victim of a completely coward of a husband and a bitchy MIL and even Bitcher father in law

    to all women out there, don’t marry a spineless mama’s boy

    they are losers!

  46. Nathan51 says:

    My controlling, manipulative MIL and my enabling wife have made our 38 year marriage a living Hell from day one. A couple of years after we were married I was told by a former college boyfriend of my MIL that her kids would move as far away from home as possible if they were smart because she was so controlling. He was right and they did. One on the East coast the second on the West coast and the third and I moved 200 miles away but that was not near enough. Every day phone calls, sometimes multiple times a day were the norm for the first 35 years. It’s funny how my wife was always too busy, tired yada, yada, yada for sex but 10 minutes after telling me to take a hike mommy dearest would call and my frigid wife would lay in bed for the next 30 minutes to an hour on the phone. As soon as the phone call was over, wife was again dead to the world or at least as far as I was concerned. For mommy dearest to run up a $300 to $500 long distance phone bill every month was the norm. Our sex life was non existent. Sunday through Thursday, no sex because she was too tired and needed to get up early for school. Friday night was out because she was too tired from working all week. Saturday night was out because she had to get up early Sunday AM for church. Sunday morning ditto. Saturday AM before 9:00AM it was too early; after 9:30AM it was too late. (She needed to get up early and get some work done.) If that wasn’t bad enough, at 9:00AM Saturday AM like clock work, mommy dearest would call. I guess the Friday night 1 hour call wasn’t enough. The only time the phone calls stopped for a week or two is when MIL decided she wanted grand kids so she and enabling wife formulated a plan to pull that off. (I found out about this after MIL bragged about it to a third party.) As soon as wife verified she was pregnant the nightly phone calls resumed and no more sex for the next year! Fast forward 37 years and mommy dearest is in a retirement home practically in my back yard. Daily phone calls start at 9:00AM and on some days there are as many as 4 to 8 phone calls before noon from her. The calls continue all day long sometimes until as late as 11:00PM! We can’t go anywhere or do anything without her tagging along or a us getting a phone call from her wanting to know where we were. If we do go out somewhere without MIL, as soon as wife is back in the house, within 60 seconds she is on the phone with mommy dearest. When she is not on the phone, doting daughter spends at least 3 days a week hauling mommy dearest all over town but the same woman is and has always been too busy for me. Between mommy dearest phone calls, wife’s facebook and wife’s involvement in everything and every one’s life besides her own we have no marriage. Anytime I have ever said anything about any of this I’m wrong, she’s right, end of discussion! The phone calls are none of my business per wife. How I wish I had never married her. Manipulative MIL tried to break us up when we were dating. I wish I had walked out on her then.

  47. Sorry to read of your situation Nathan – I do have to wonder what would happen if the phone suddenly stopped working…..say due to being dunked in water or if a large object fell on it. Speaking strictly hypothetically of course. 🙂

  48. Nathan51 says:

    It wouldn’t have mattered, she would have gotten another one. Now with mommy dearest so close it’s the phone and car that would need to be dunked.

  49. Ok, how about sending her to live with her mother until she deals with your respective issues? From the amount of yakking she does with her mother, it’s pretty clear the apron strings never got cut, and since she seems to prefer her mother’s company, it would seem to be a win-win all around. She gets to be mommy’s girl, you’d get some peace and quiet, and wouldn’t have to put up with a woman continually disrespecting you.

    You also mentioned her not doing her “wifely duties”, and going to church. Here’s a good article on so-called “Christian” wives who don’t discharge their responsibilities:


  50. Nathan51 says:

    Apron strings? I don’t think the umbilical cord was ever cut! Good article but long ago I got to the point to decide that if she cared so little that she seldom wanted to initiate or make time for anything there is no point in my trying either. I could probably write a book on the things that have transpired over the years in that department. Bait and switch were the daily norm for the first 30 plus years to the point that I feel our entire marriage was based on bait and switch. Besides, using Bible verses for a guilt trip is more her style than mine. The suggestion of telling her to move in with mommy dearest has been one I have been seriously considering. Thanks for that suggestion. From an internet search you would think that the problem of a “mama’s girl” either doesn’t exist, is very rare or maybe guys just don’t care about the why, leave very early on and never discuss the real reason. Far and away the majority of internet search hits deal with the “mama’s boy” and the impact it has on a marriage. I would be willing to bet far more marriages are broken up or turned into a battle ground by an enabling daughter and her meddling controlling mother than the other way around.

  51. A Northern Observer says:

    Nathan – here’s another good post about a man who’d turned his marriage around:

    I hope this helps!

  52. Nathan51 says:

    Thanks for the info. I suspect that this only works if you have a woman that doesn’t think she is an alpha Rottweiler. Using this on my wife is like putting two alpha dogs in the same cage. (Tried it many times before.) There is going to be allot of barking, biting and it will not end well for either party. Trying these tactics on her always ends in a yelling, screaming match. I have long suspected her sister has never been married for the same reason. I think the last time little sister even dated a guy was when she was in high school over 30 years ago! Mommy dearest has a habit of repeatedly interrupting and loudly talking over people she doesn’t like or want to hear. She was very large (at one time she weighed well over 350lbs) and will bellow so loudly that you will need to scream to talk over her. As wife has gotten older and also morbidly obese, she is developing the same tactic. For that reason, over 15 years ago I quit attending family get-togethers if mommy dearest was going to be there. I just got fed up with having to yell over top of fat mama to talk to anyone because she was so openly rude and offensive toward me. I also got fed up with her back handed insults and slams. It’s funny that for the first 35 years of our marriage plus the 3 years we dated, fat mama treated me like crap with her insults and digs. Now that she in an assisted living home near us for the last 3 years and is dependent on us, she is half civil toward me. Sorry, as far as I am concerned it’s far too little far too late! I am writing a long letter to dump on wife as that is the only way I have found to effectively deal with her. After the letter I will probably consider leaving. One other thing I have learned is that anytime she has had one of these reality checks and vows to change, the “change” is all show and has never lasted more than a month. There have been way too many “second chances” and way too many wasted years.

  53. A Northern Observer says:

    In which case, I wish you all the best in your life!

  54. mrsdarlings says:

    This is soooooooo true! i’m going through this right now. Handed it over to my husband to figure it out and sowing my mouth shut one stitch at a time. It’s working!!!!!!! AH!

  55. AJ brown says:

    In a real marriage it isn’t about who is in control it is about true partnership in which respect is equal between men and women. This kind of marriage will always speak for itself. There is not power play their is mutal love and mutual support. fear is not a factor in this kind of balnced relationship becasue theri doesn’t NEED to be. Neither parner fears the other and neither partner’s ego is so fragile that there has to be this kind of power play. If the husband’s mother is abusing the wife then a husband who respects and loves his wife will step up to plate. If the wife’s mother is abusing the husband then she should step up to the plate to defend the husband. This game of dominance is a fear based game and has nothing to do with true love.

  56. AJ brown says:

    I noticed an awful lot of blame placed on women, whether mother in laws or wives and very little going to the men. Both men and women have the responsibility of learning to communicate in adult ways instead of acting out in childish power plays. I also read a lot of comments here which talk about alpha dogs etc., and I feel the need to remind you all that the reason dogs need an alpha are because they are dogs! If you want to model yourself after animal pack beware… if you live by the sword you die by the sword. True wisdom as Jesus Christ demonstrated so beautifully results from true love and true wisdom and will be balanced, loving and peaceful. Our fear is ego based not spiritually based and this goes against the true teachings of Christ which teach us to love and respect one another as ourselves it it doesn’t not say do not respect women as yourselves, only men, it says all people. Ego based fear leads us in to the false idea that in order for us to have true power it means that our wives and anyone one else we feel threatened by has to be submissive to us in order that we can feel powerful. Being a strong person should have far more to do with who we are at our core than having someone kowtow to us and defer all decisions to us for fear of wounding our fragile sense of manhood. Mutual love and metal respect in all situations is a far better solution. Though I recognize that this is not possible in the world in all situations as their are very many many immature males with fragile egoes whose fingers are oh so ready to push the nuclear button, but if it were possible and was practiced by all peoples regardless of color gender or religions would end all this immature aggression and the need to prove who the alpha is. Bottome line for this particular thread.. If a man is weak he will not stand up to his wife, if a women is weak she will not stand up to her husband. There should be no weakness in either sex there should be mutual respect and that means that when one partner need help the other provides it PERIOD! Kowtowing or turning over power to only one individual is insane. Look what happens in governments when that is the case.

  57. AJ – I’m thinking there’s a 12-step program for your terminal case of feminism-poisoning, and you need to take it bad.

  58. AJ brown says:

    Feminism posioning in your opinion being…??? As I recall I simply stated that in a true marriage there should be equality and mutual respect not the ego based need to control in order to feel masculine. If men were really strong they wouldn’t fear women also having a voice and would be willing and in fact embracing of a give and take mutually inclusive power structure within the world and the home. If you are against this then you sign up for a twelve step program for fearful fragile ego driven men whose only way to feel power is by subjudgation and dominance. This is the way in the animal kingdom not in tthe wrold of spiritually minded clear thinking human beings who no londger live in the dark ages.

  59. AJ, your post simply says, men….do it like we women do….or, man bad woman good. Hence, you are steeped in evangelical feminism, and like most, do not know it the same way a fish doesnt realize it is wet.

    And balance is a cool word, they use it on Amberin commercials. It doesnt really mean anything.

  60. A Northern Observer says:

    @AJ – If men were really strong they wouldn’t fear women also having a voice and would be willing and in fact embracing of a give and take mutually inclusive power structure within the world and the home.

    So when God had Scripture say “wives submit to your husbands”, the Almighty God, who created all things – did it because He had a weak and fearful ego ?

    Somehow I don’t think so.

    I’m sure this’ll come as a shock to you – female submission is as much about women being happy as anything else. God made them with a submissive nature – I would surmise to be an example of how the Church submits to Christ. So, for women to do otherwise is a path to disappointment and sadness.

  61. MarcusD says:

    @AJ brown

    “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.” – Einstein

  62. When I hear Evanga-fems carrying on about “equality” and “subjugation” and suggesting that Godly men are nothing more than power mad ego-maniacs I’m left with a strong aftertaste of “Do what though will.” in my mind. They are rebels against the body and for the self same reasons as Satan was.

    What portion of the body of Christ do they imagine is screaming “ME! ME! ME!, UNFAIR! I DEMAND EQUALITY!”? Christian men are trying to figure out how to do what Jesus Christ has commanded, to love our wives and lead them in Godliness, a task that looks more and more like a mirror of Hosea:

    The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
    (Hos 1:2)

    Evanga-fems are departing the Lord. Unfortunately, many modern day Hosea’s are married to them God is showing the Church it’s condition in the same way He was showing Israel.

  63. AJ brown says:

    Godly men? Don’t make me laugh. None of you crazy mysogynists are Godly men. Jesus was a Godly man follow his example. Godly men don’t practice subjugation, fearful men do and God is not fearful. Don’t blame women blame yourselves. Satan lives in men like you who practice your dark deeds while believeing them sanctioined by God and anyone who dares to challenge those archaic beleifs you say is departing the lord or taken over by Satan. If you were not threatened by women you would not be so fearful. Hatred is based on ignorance and fear and the two always go together. In case you hadn’t notice men are the reason the world is so messed up. If you want to see Satan look in the mirror. Women are not departing the Lord they are waking up to the lies perpertrated by men like you in the name of God. Unbalanced men and their need for power and control are the reason we fight wars. The vast majority crime is committed by men. Go back to your caves and practice your bigotry in the name of God. If your wives put up with you they deserve what they get. Meanwhile I will enjoy a healthy balanced realationship with my wife and children whereby we have no need to have dominance, we have what you people have no understanding of: LOVE, COOPERATION AND MUTUAL RESPECT. That is Godly. As Jesus said it is the spirit of the word not the letter of the word that matters. The spirit of GOD is Fair and just and does not condone making slaves of of any human being.

  64. A Northern Observer says:

    Godly men don’t practice subjugation

    Glad to read we agree – a woman being willingly submissive to a man’s authority is a completely different kettle of fish from a man subjugating her to his power.

    I will enjoy a healthy balanced realationship with my wife and children whereby we have no need to have dominance

    You can’t have a “happy” two-person relationship without dominance. One person has to be dominant and the other submissive because the alternative is endless bickering and/or seeking for power and control.

    What’s more likely in your relationship is (a) you’re a natural alpha and don’t realize it, and your wife is naturally submissive to that dominant masculinity, or (b) you’ve been completely dominated by her and the feminists, which is why you’re here spouting off the usual feminist misandry about men being the source of all evil and women being the source of all good.

  65. AJ brown says:

    Dalrock, The definiton of a relationship in my book is a heart connection between two people. What you don’t understand is that dominance is not part of that kind of relation it is give and take. What this means to me is that when my wife has something she feels strongly about about I listen and vice versa. She has areas where she knows best and is therefore the leader in those situations and this can range from business to finances and everywhere in between. I don’t expect her to stay quiet and let me run the show even when she is better qulified in many areas as you all seem to believe I should do. Neither I might add, does she try to take over in all areas. We share our areas of strength and our areas of weakness without fear because we don’t NEED to have this kind of ego power play. There is no bickering there is communication. That is what I call a balanced relationship. It was my decision to write to you people after reading this blog since you are obvioulsy against women having any kind of voice at all in a “relationship” which of course is completely outrageous and backward. Had she written it you would have lashed out with even more hatred than I received. Masculinity has nothing to do with real power. It is within the individual be they male or female. In fact I have seen that women have more innate inner power and strength than most men. What I said about men was true as evidenced by fact not by my having been “taken over” by feminism. Too bad you all can’t step outside yourseves and listen to how your comments sound. They are far more militant than any so called feminist I have ever heard and whats more you’ve got no nothing going for your argument except a bunch of dark ages ideas. Look up in Forbes about how adding women to leadership positions has increased business. Women have a lot of valuable opinions and humantistic input to add to this world that men like you who see everything as control or be controlled, me vs them, black vs white can’t possibly contribute.

  66. AJ
    First, I’m just a visitor here, I’m not Dalrock. 🙂

    Second, this last comment is a lot better reasoned than your prior posts – that’s for ratcheting the invective down.

    Having said that –

    Too bad you all can’t step outside yourseves and listen to how your comments sound.

    I’d submit you need to go back and read your prior comments which basically says men are the root of all evil, and women are the source of all that’s good – and tell us how we’re supposed to “perceive” your comments as anything than “yet another white knight suffering from acute feminism poisoning”? Which makes comments like this all the more (sadly) amusing:

    We share our areas of strength and our areas of weakness without fear because we don’t NEED to have this kind of ego power play. There is no bickering there is communication.

    In which case I congratulate you on this accomplishment!

    Now tell me – when the two of you can’t agree on something, then what? Where does “the buck stop” in your relationship?

    Next, “opposing your viewpoint” is not “hatred” so please store that accusation with the rest of your inappropriate left-wing tactics.

    Finally, you’re conflating “dominance” with “ego / power play” – the two are completely separate concepts and can’t be used interchangeably.

  67. mustardnine says:

    @ AJ Brown
    Godly men? Don’t make me laugh. None of you crazy mysogynists are Godly men.
    Dalrock, The definiton of a relationship in my book is a heart connection between two people. What you don’t understand is that dominance is not part of that kind of relation it is give and take.

    Thanks, AJ, for informing us all that nobody here, including Dalrock, knows anything or has experienced anything. I’m sure the Good Lord just sent you here to show us all the error of our ways!

  68. mustardnine says:

    Gentlemen! Breathe a shout of joy. The 7th cavalry has arrived . . .

  69. ” Which makes comments like this all the more (sadly) amusing:”

    Ooops – forgot to edit that line out…

  70. Seems to me that “Love, Cooperation and Mutual Respect”: is a mantra that would be entirely acceptable on any college campus on the lips of a secular humanist. When you cannot distinguish this from “take up your cross daily, deny yourself and follow me” then you are promoting a different Gospel. If you are hip deep in the worlds methods for achieving “equality” than you are completely separated from God’s method, self denial:

    Feminists are using the same tactics to establish the “+” in atheism and taking over college campuses as they are bringing into the church. Not Christ, Saul Alinsky.

    “For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:”
    (1Pe 2:15-21)


    “Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history… the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.” ~ Saul Alinsky “Rules for Radicals” dedication.

    Two methods with two entirely different outcomes.

  71. eon says:

    AJ Brown said: “Dalrock, The definiton of a relationship in my book is a heart connection between two people. What you don’t understand is that dominance is not part of that kind of relation it is give and take.”

    What AJ Brown doesn’t understand is that a relationship, in real life, is a heart connection from a man to a woman (men are wired to protect weaker women), but it is a tingles connection, first, from a woman to a man (and women get tingles from being dominated).

  72. AJ brown says:

    I actually don’t think any of you here, judging from the contents of your posts, does have any idea of what Jesus Christ stood for. Jesus Christ was no believer in dominating women. You are followers of fellow biblical misogynists. This is more than clear. Hmmm… Let me quote you just a few comments on this blog to which I was responding to before :When I hear Evanga-fems carrying on about “equality” and “subjugation” and suggesting that Godly men are nothing more than power mad ego-maniacs I’m left with a strong aftertaste of
    “Do what though will.” in my mind. They are rebels against the body and for the self same reasons as Satan was.”
    “The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
    (Hos 1:2)” “My controlling, manipulative MIL and my enabling wife have made our 38 year marriage a living Hell from day one.”
    “Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history… the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”

    Thanks for the last quote on the first radical again a male. For surely you are all very obviously radicals. Radicals fight for the side o power not equality. Women and the men who stand with them fight for their God given rights as human beings. You and other men like you were ones who decided it should be otherwise not God. JESUS was proof of that.

    There is nothing written in defense of women who feel the same way about dominating controlling men as you childish men are all whining about in regard to women. . All this misogyny so obvious throughout this thread and you accuse me of promoting feminism when all I advocate for is equality? You poeple are so Old Testament. As I said you have nothing going for your argument in favor of male dominance but some dark age’s bible quotes the translation of which was surely drastically changed from any truly God given directive. As I said before just look at the huge variances of bibles in print today. The proof is in the pudding. Since women have come into power the world is becoming a much better place. Relationships are becoming much more about mutual cooperation and sharing on all levels than what you men would like to have which is basically a complete dictatorship with women playing no other part but hand maids to you. I am sorry but I have no more time to try to talk sense into archaic block heads. One last note, the reason you say that you think you need total dominance in order to prevent bickering from your wives is because you don’t respect what your wives say. You don’t stop and really listen to what their needs are. They are not heard because you men do not know how to communicate. Many of you are simply grown up spoiled children who are used to getting their own way and wont listen to any one else’s, God forbid your wife’s, opinion. Put yourselves in their shoes and imagine what life would be like to HAVE NO VOICE!! I am done with this thread.

  73. A Northern Observer says:

    Why am I surprised that you dismiss the sanctity of Scripture, dismiss the OT, and instead insert your own theology?

  74. A Northern Observer says:

    arg – try again:

    Why am I NOT surprised that you dismiss the sanctity of Scripture, dismiss the OT, and instead insert your own theology?

  75. Recently divorced or lifelong lesbian? What’s the call?

  76. A Northern Observer says:

    AJ: s I said before just look at the huge variances of bibles in print today.

    That’s what the snake said “Did God really ssssay….”

    God is Laughing says: September 15, 2013 at 4:53 pm
    Recently divorced or lifelong lesbian? What’s the call?

    I’m thinking supplicating omega who’se been threatened with not being serviced if he doesn’t toe the line.

  77. Ton says:

    You know you won when they break out misogynist.

  78. MarcusD says:

    I think it’s the use of any ad hominem that signals the person using such a tactic is not able to find anything else to support their argument.

  79. Anonymous Reader says:

    Recently divorced or lifelong lesbian? What’s the call?

    Woman posing as a man, one way or another. No question about it. Between the ad hominem, the shaming language, and the passive-aggressive gameplaying, AJ is clearly female.

  80. Anonymous Reader says:

    PS: Empathalogicalism can point to any number of “Christian forums” where women routinely post text that is almost identical to AJ’s efforts.

  81. MarcusD says:

    Semantic analysis of AJ comes up with inconclusive results in terms of gender. Age seems to be 50+. Mostly negative sentiment. Neutral mood.

  82. AR, yeah I know we “attended” the same forum for nearly 6 months.

  83. Post-menopausal frivorcee, Woodstock attender, Summer of “Love” participant, and post modern evangelist.

    “Since women have come into power the world is becoming a much better place.”

    “Put yourselves in their shoes and imagine what life would be like to HAVE NO VOICE!!”

    No sense of their own cognitive dissonance, or the irony of their words.

    Apparently Jesus should not have bothered dying to form lay the foundation of the body of Christ and should have instead just turned the world over to women, our “salvation”. LOL

  84. MarcusD says:

    By most objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women’s happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women’s declining relative wellbeing is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging—one with higher subjective well-being for men. Our findings raise provocative questions about the contribution of the women’s movement to women’s welfare and about the legitimacy of using subjective well-being to assess broad social changes.

    Stevenson, Betsey A., and Justin Wolfers. “Paradox of Declining Female Happiness.” American Law & Economics Association Annual Meetings. bepress, 2008.

  85. @MarcusD, it all started when Carrie Nation decided to start marching into saloon’s and men didn’t eject her to the curb. The more the feminists have demanded control of the worse things have got for them (and everyone else). Organized crime? Gangsters in the street? Blame a progressive/feminist.

  86. Look up in Forbes about how adding women to leadership positions has increased business.

    Then look again at how that was arrived at by not studying a true cross section of various types of businesses.

  87. Anonymous Reader says:

    Look up in Forbes about how adding women to leadership positions has increased business.

    The Emperor’s new clothes are magnificent, stunning, and beautiful….

  88. Dr Carol says:

    To TFH: I” totally agree” with what you have said. Mother in laws on the paternal side need to speak up. We should have rights to see our grandchildren and the wife should not be so much in charge of all things. After all the father has just as much as far as part of the children being born, His seed created the babies. His dad and mom have the same DNA and it is as much their grandchildren as it is the maternal grandparents. Yes we need to stand up and get some changes in the law. The women are totally out of hand ,and it is getting worse. They have too many laws on their side and they are ‘going wild’. I have heard it over and over and it never was like this in years gone by. The men should not need to turn on his own family in order to keep his wife happy. I have been married nearly fifty years and I am taking care of my mom in law ,and let me tell you I would not dream of trying to control my husband , as we know moms and dads are supposed to be loved and tolerated if need be ,because you do not live with them, most likely anyway . We should never separate the family. Especially ” just because we can” Changes need to be made in our social structure and taken back to when the family even took care of the elderly parents ” on both sides” We can all work together for the good of the “family.” Saving money in the end. It is time people learn to be’ kind ‘to each other. We should not be so touchy or selfish all the time.

  89. Dr Carol says:

    When did ” women come into power?” They may think they did ,but they have not and never will. It is all in their heads. I am a woman and even I know better!On the other hand when I look around it makes one wonder Politics and finances are all going down hill fast and we are strongly in debt in this country and so many problems around us, our children are having emotional problems more than ever before, as teachers note in schools, , we have more crime, and on and on and on. If women are doing this, then they should be impeached quickly!

  90. Spacetraveller says:

    Dr Carol,

    I like you! Could I please add you to my growing list of mentors?
    Thanks in advance!

  91. Relieved Wife says:

    It’s probably a good thing my husband’s mother died before I met him. From all he’s said, it sounds like she was a selfish, narcissistic bitch who thought she was secretly the star of a soap opera. I’m thrilled I never had to deal with her. He doesn’t seem to miss her either.

    My condolences to every woman who has to deal with a bad mother-in-law, as well as every man who is either stuck between his mother and wife or tries to put both in their place. Good luck to one and all!

  92. Heather says:

    I just got married 6 months ago. My husband assured me when we got engaged that he would move to my city (and out of his mothers house. Do not get me started on a 40 year old man who still lives with Mommy). Here we are 6 months into this marriage and I’m still living alone. He seemingly has no intention of leaving his Mom. She has become extremely dependent on him since the wedding and I feel this is the reason he won’t leave her. I really don’t want to move back to that area. Jobs are scarce there and even if I did find one, I’d be making a fraction of what can be made here.
    Short of me giving up my life here and moving in with my MIL (which she suggeted!) I am at a loss!

    He told me recently that his Mother will always take precedence over me. Wow.

    I wish someone had warned me about marrying a Momma’s boy!

  93. A Northern Observer says:

    @Heather – I’ll bet you thought you could “fix” him after you got married, and then found out not-so-much. I’m sorry for your situation, however you brought it on yourself.

  94. Heather says:

    @a northern observer. No, I was only under the impression that he would move in since that is what he told me.

  95. Heather,

    I just got married 6 months ago. My husband assured me when we got engaged that he would move to my city (and out of his mothers house. Do not get me started on a 40 year old man who still lives with Mommy). Here we are 6 months into this marriage and I’m still living alone.

    What exactly does “assured” precisely mean to you? What did he say and when did he say it? Go into more detail on what your husband assured please, and I might comment.

  96. No, I was only under the impression that he would move in since that is what he told me.

    What did he say EXACTLY and when did he say it? This. Is. Important.

  97. Heather says:

    When we got engaged, we sat down to discuss living arrangements. I asked if he wanted me to move back home. He said that he wanted to move here because of better job opportunities, to gain independence from his Mom, and that he just wanted to live in a big city.

    I asked if he was sure. He said that he was.

    Any advice? I miss him! We only see each other once (sometimes twice) a month.

  98. Yes, I have advice (don’t know how good it is, but here goes.) This is given that he told you that he wanted to live in the city with you.

    Move him (and his mom) into your place. Tell him you miss him. Tell him that it is not healthy for a marriage (particularly one this new) to be of the commuter sort, two visits a month doesn’t do it for you. You need your husband in your bed every night. You understand that his mom is clingy. (I’m guessing his dad isn’t around anymore) and she probably needs her son for a constant supply of “honey-dos.” That is usually the reason why the mom is so clingy for their sons.

    Tell him you will support him (and his mom) until he can find a job, a better job. He will. Any man that devoted to his mother at age 40 is a man who would go nuts not having a job. That should be a quick job search.

    Your concession here is you need to live with his mom (at least temporarily.) He said he can’t leave her. Well you can’t be without him either. So he is at an impasse. Remove the impasse by giving him an out….

  99. Heather says:

    Thank you for your advice! 🙂
    We did make that offer to her but she refused. She’s also refused to move South to live with her other son. She doesn’t want to leave her home. I don’t blame her! She’s lived there for close to 40 years.

    I’ll just have to learn to deal with being a “single married lady”. Lol. Maybe adopt a few cats to make up for my lack of children. Sorry…poor attempt at humor.

    Thanks again though for your thoughtful answer. It’s was kind of you.

  100. Jean says:

    We need to acknowledge that negative antics come from fathers in law too. This in law need for dominance is not just a female trait. Stop making this a mother in law only thing. Please be fair and respecful in your dishing out of the criticism.

  101. Jean says:

    We need to make more readily available to many men, some articles that will explain a little simpler, what their roles and their wives’ roles are. Among them, a husband’s role is not to dominate a wife and a wife’s role is not to shut your mouth and allow your husband and his parents to dominate and disrepect you. Where did you all get these rules from? Somebody needs to go and read the Bible all the way through!
    Wives are helpmeeets, not doormats with tape over their mouths. Women are vital and important. Husbands and inlaws are not allowed to abuse the woman just because she is a wife! And just because we are told that the man is the head and wives are to submit to THEIR OWN HUSBANDS, we must not forget that God has told these egotistical men to honor their wives and do not be harsh with them. God knows how men are. They are also told that they are to love their wives like Christ loves the Church. God does not mean for husbands to shut their wives’ opinions and allow verbal and emotional abuse. Yes, it is abuse when you all expect for a wife to sit down, hold her head down, and say nothing. This practice is ludicrous.
    . There are many times that husbands do not do their responsibliities and telling his mother and father, to back up, is a responsibility. A wife does not need to hold her head down and allow the husband’s parents to dump on her. Women/wives if your mother in law is bold enough to criticize you, then you DO have the right to tell her then and there that, “I will not allow you to speak to me that way.” Wives, do not respect a treacherous inlaws . Also, you do not need to wait on a spineless husband who does not honor and respect you enough to tell his parents right then and there that this will not be allowed.
    I am very much surprised at the number of men in this discussion, who expect the wife to be a doormat and equally surprised at the number of women who buy into these man-made doctrines, as if they are truth..

  102. Beryl says:

    @Northern Observer, not every woman wants to change her husband. In fact most of us don’t. That is a myth that men created and spread, to add yet another unfair bias against the female gender. We women really do not give a darn except, our responsibilities as wives and mothers, are so great, and we need the husbands to get up and participate. You know how distant, and uninvolved husbands can get in relationships, well, it is so not fair! Many times, husbands tend to take active roles in acquiring sex and food.. Why not everything else? Is this laziness, selfishness, or what do you all see it as?
    When wives make suggestions as to the things that their husbands can do, they are asking him to wake up, take part in the relationship and give her some help. Husbands and wives are supposed to be partners. A relationship cannot survive with the wife doing everything. The expectations that are placed on wives and women, are unbelievable. Why is it so difficult for many men to see this? Please do not continue to use and spread this notion. This is as unfair as if women were spreading the notion that every husband wants to close his wife’s voice and opinion.

  103. pearl baron says:

    a request to son on hubby’s deathbed to take care of his mother was a huge mistake.

  104. Christians 4 Christ! says:

    “You know how distant, and uninvolved husbands can get in relationships, well, it is so not fair! Many times, husbands tend to take active roles in acquiring sex and food.. Why not everything else? Is this laziness, selfishness, or what do you all see it as?
    When wives make suggestions as to the things that their husbands can do, they are asking him to wake up, take part in the relationship and give her some help. ”

    Beryl, may I suggest that rather than “ask him to wake up” JUST STOP doing whatever it is you are doing that you want him to. If it doesn’t get done, oh well. But more often than not he’ll notice and pick up the slack. If not, you’ll just live in a messier house with less food.

    Heather, is your husband from a certain background? I’ve seen that sort of family dynamic is prevalent with the H1B visa colleagues I had back in the day.

  105. Elizabeth says:

    This story is so not helpful. It is so far off its rediculous. If a controling mother in law thinks she’s in charge she’s not going to give that power up to her son that she still sees as a little boy. My mother in law not only thinks she can try to boss my house hold she thinks she can bully schools into giving up my kids when she’s not on the pick up list. The only way to fix it is to take away what she cares about most until she learns her place as a grandmother. Her kids are grown. And not to mention not all marriages are based on sex. This story may have been helpful 20 years ago, but times change.

  106. Elizabeth says:

    My mother in law tries to control my husband. If he wants to buy a car she acts like he can’t do it without her permission. She will completely belittle him. I’m tired of my family being hurt by this woman. She expects him to answer her beccon call. Her son is grown and she needs to respect that. When I met him I didn’t expect things to be this way. Now I know why he avoids family functions.

  107. Hello to you all- I come at this from a different angle one of Islamic Belief (I’m a practicing Muslim women). I do agree with the men in that women have in our society are in a sense their own worst enemies. You cannot expect men to step up to any plate when you are chasing after them and emasculating them of all their God given rights, equally men have no right to suppress women and subject them to being slaves and treating them as soulless creatures who have no place in society. A lot of men practice this now days still, in some form or another, from many walks of life and faiths. The women in the societies also contribute to this problem in their own way and practice this type of behavior in their own way to the men. I find as a Muslim women the women in western society look down on me the most, while I am respected by western men. On the other hand- Muslim men tend to go overboard with their rights and forget their responsibility to women. Many people have no idea that Islam is a religion of rights and responsibilities, like yin and yang- the earth was created in balance, so to are our roles. Too much of anything isn’t good for our health, let alone our society. We women must learn to respect our men, their place, their strength, their wisdom, roles and wealth. While men must respect, our roles, our bodies, our chastity, our place among them, our wealth, our courage, strength etc. Men and women were NOT created equal, we were created DIFFERENT, one compliments the other. For those women who argue such, then if that were true their would be no need to have either men or women- we would all be the same gender as their would be no benefit having two of the same kind of creation multiplying. We must admit, we as humans have committed many crimes in the name of God, while claiming to be acting on His behalf. This does not excuse anyone to find the truth and this does not excuse women to take the God given rights of men to gain their rights for themselves. We must admit, it’s us who is using our bodies to gain a sexual advantage over men, sleep with married men without a thought for how the wife would feel, complain about MIL’s to only become a crazy MIL ourselves, it is us who readily eat the flesh of our sisters/mothers/co-workers and friends happily back-biting them to no return. We do create many of the vices in society and while men also contribute and create many of the vices themselves also- if it weren’t for our part in such corruption, our condition might actually be raised to a status we couldn’t imagine. Back to the topic, to those of us who will have sons, God willing. Maybe we should raise our sons to be be great husbands to their future wives and decent men in society- then the corruption of MIL problems would cease and society might actually have male leaders that do not resemble their over-bearing,controlling, power thirsty mothers. I know when I have a son, God willing- this will be something I will instill in both my sons and daughters, because I’m not raising them to marry me or to corrupt society. I am raising them, to be great men and women, who I hope will alleviate the worlds suffering, help their fellow human brethren and will give people their rights while upholding their responsibilities. Thank you for taking the time out to read my post, may we all become better people and strive to be the better women that we are and to respect the men among st us to encourage them to the great men they could be, ameen.

    Peace be on you, Lioness of Allah

  108. awiseword says:

    Hi I’m about to marry late this year,I have my fiances mother whose kids are all lining up to get married. In the first few years she was ok but now she has become snippy and mean at times, she has started insulting her future D.I.Ls including me, I’ve always tried to be good to her as I appreciate her for raising my future husband. She is now talking behind his back insulting him ,insisitng that he does things her way) paSsing nasty comments and her tone is rude… I don’t know what to do my future hubby says we shouldn’t get him involved in our problems,,I think that’s unfair As this is his damn mother,I wanna scream at her bt I don’t… Please help she is behaving like a child I dread what’s gonna happen when I’m married..

  109. Rodney Narayadu says:

    I am indian,married to an indian woman.My mil is satans afterbirth.She is the most evil,cunning and manipulating creature in earth and hell.She goes out of her way to cause discord between husband and wife and amongst family.She is 70 years old and behaves like a 16 year old.On the contrary my wife is the most God fearing,kind,wonderful person.Must be like her late father who had the same qualities.God was merciful and rescued him at an early age.When my mil dies,im going to throw a party and have my first drink!

  110. AJ says:

    I have a GHASTLY MIL. My husband is most definitely the head of household, but in a good way. He protects me, cares for me, makes the decisions – but he also consults me, respects me and takes my feelings and opinions into consideration in all things. When his mother goes off the deep end, which is a LOT, he handles it. She knows she cannot railroad me or bully me. The fact that he deals with her most certainly does not “draw us together”. I cannot stand that bat sh!t crazy woman. And for good reasons which I don’t have time or energy to go into. Suffice to say she has made her bed.

  111. serah says:

    i am married to a very loving and caring person and our family looks fine outwardly but now we all not in good terms because of my mother in law. she creates problems between the siblings and now everybody hates eachother and no one is willing to sort out things.
    my mother in law is literally crazy who needs medical attention, she causes all sort of problems in our happy family. she interfers in evry damn thing and has no shame in creating problems in the family. am desparate and i really need help. i have never googled for such a problem in my life and i found this website.. please can somebody help me.

  112. serah says:

    i really want to get her to a psychiatrist but that is not going to work unless i sedate her.. she has 3 daughter in laws including me but the other 2 are very diplomatic and back biting sorts.. they act very pally pally in front of her and behind her back they bitch about her till my brains fall out of my head.. i am done talking about this lady.. i want to scream at her and i keep praying LORD please help me keep my calm with her.
    i can write a book on how nasty she is..few things are..
    she doesnt let my daughter be with me, doesnt like me and my husband having physical closeness (beat that!!!!) , she doesnt like me talking to my dad in law. she hates my family ( my parents) , she keeps an account of how much i eat or drink ( i barely eat!) .. the things just goes on and on and i can write pages and pages about this… i wish i could just vasnish into thin air…

  113. Wow I never looked at it this way…. So insightful, thank you.

  114. @Serah – take Dalrock’s advice… your husband is not doing his job in leading, and more than likely, it is you who are not letting him lead. I’m not trying to offend you, it just seems normal unfortunately for women to take the lead and then come into issues like these. I’ve never seen this kind of problem explained the way Dalrock just explained it, however, I’ve been in this situation years ago when we were first married. It only stopped when my husband decided to truly lead and stop the ridiculous behavior of his family (mainly his mother but also aunts… it really does make sense that it was a kind of matriarchal set-up with the men, their husbands, being weak overall and not being able to call-out their ridiculous behavior).

    My husband was not naturally weak, and I thought he was doing well leading us together, it was only when his mother decided I wasn’t doing things the way she thought I should be (taking the role of leader over us – taking that leader role away from him) that I can see her actions emasculated him. When he filled his role as leader and called them out on the behavior his family had to deal seriously with his mother’s actions. His dad went to strange extremes to defend his wife, lying about what she actually said, saying he was present for things that happened when both my husband & I knew he wasn’t… it was so strange to see his rationalizations to defend his wife, since I guess ultimately, he couldn’t say anything against her. Even though when she’d be gossiping horribly about other in-laws I would see her husband cringe – he despised it but he wouldn’t tell her anything to stop it, and then when push came to shove he denied she gossiped about anyone. Denial. 😦

    Ask your husband if he will take the lead, if he refuses to confront the issue you may need to quietly put the responsibility back on him (where it belongs) by the way of you setting your boundaries with his family (silently seems to be the best way – letting them know your boundaries would work if he was the one to deliver the message). So if he won’t lead you, you’ll have to take measures yourself without directly having to get into it with his mother and family members. Whatever you do, don’t get into a verbal lashing with his family. But also don’t be a doormat, don’t put up with it anymore, change the subject or leave when they start to gossip about her (it won’t help you to gossip), leave their presence when she is abusive emotionally or verbally. Let her know your boundaries through your actions. If she confronts you (she probably will) answer with conviction and politeness that if she cannot behave, you and your children won’t be staying. Follow through.

    Just be strong and controlled… keep your femininity. Don’t lose it with her, she is not worth you losing your dignity over. Be like Sarah or Tamar or Ruth. Full of dignity and grace.

  115. princeasbel says:

    To Serah:

    I feel for you in your situation. Mine is much different, but similar in that my mom has done so much to ruin our family, likewise needs a psychiatrist and medical attention, is a hoarder, and very much wears the pants in the family. Problem is, with a thoroughly emasculated husband, there’s nothing you can do. He’s the only one who has some hope of containing her, and he won’t do it no matter how much it hurts him, his friends, or his family. I’m sorry I don’t have more cheerful things to say, but you may as well learn now that this is never going to end, barring a miraculous work of God.

    I say keep making your requests known to God, but also move. Change your phone numbers, email, etc. Don’t give this info to any friend who may even accidentally give it to your M-I-L. There’s no way to escape a destructive people-hurting person like that except to maroon them on the island they created for themselves.

  116. crizzz says:

    im hindu n my husband a muslim.we got married but his family didnt like me.now its almost two years.i have my own house but when i visit my mother in laws house or vice verser.she treats me like a servant.she will eat n sit and only tell me to do evrything.she even makes fun of me and my family.any help how to get her away or even understand me

  117. Luke says:

    crizzz says:
    March 20, 2014 at 1:02 pm

    “im hindu n my husband a muslim.we got married but his family didnt like me.now its almost two years.i have my own house but when i visit my mother in laws house or vice verser.she treats me like a servant.she will eat n sit and only tell me to do evrything.she even makes fun of me and my family.any help how to get her away or even understand me”

    Bear a legitimate, healthy son. (Living a lifestyle that would be considered moral by their branch of Islam wouldn’t hurt a bit, either, plus adopting their dress and food customs.) I’m completely serious here. (By the way, I recently spent 2 1/2 months working in Saudi Arabia, by way of qualification to speak on this.)

  118. Dee says:

    A wife suffering at the hands of unkind and controlling in laws can surrender the leadership to the husband, yet the biggest help for a wife may be for the wife to know that the in laws may never change. All the wife can do is love her husband and children, and pray often for the mercy from G-d to forgive her in laws for their behavior. Then the wife who is suffering and grieved, can really let go of the struggle with in laws, because even though she may hope for change, acceptance, and love from her husband’s family, if the in laws are narcissistic and jealous, there is nothing to be done……

  119. shylu says:

    Hi im just 3months married..im getting indirectly tourcherd by my mother in law through my husband im frustated daily im unable to be happy…some one givee solution for dis pls..

  120. Ellie says:

    I’m inclined to find your suggested solution somewhat disturbing at best, downright irresponsible at worst.
    In relationships, there is always an issue of power play. Any DECENT, GENUINE, CARING relationship should be about EQUALITY and PARITY. So, the suggestion that a mother-in-law “outranks” a wife is downright appalling. NOBODY “outranks” anyone else – THAT is exactly how power imbalances start – with somebody assuming the right to think they have “power” over another person. A wife is not some snivelling subordinate! She is an adult – a thinking, feeling, living, breathing HUMAN BEING. Just as is her husband. Just as is the mother-in-law. If there is a situation in which these three individuals CANNOT all act as adults – talking with each other openly, honestly and rationally – the BLAME cannot be laid solely at the wife’s feet. She is not there to act inferior, and to grovel about, trying to pacify a domineering mother-in-law.
    Couples need to be able to live as COUPLES – NOT with a third person in their marriage! The mother-in-law is not married to her son! She has her own husband to attend to. The marriage between her son and daughter-in-law is NOT her “territory” and she has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to intrude into it.
    Anyone heard of the Psychological concept of “PROJECTION”? No? Maybe you need to read up! This is where the person with the problem (in this case an interfering and intrusive mother-in-law who cannot accept she has “empty nest syndrome”) PROJECTS the problem onto somebody else (in this case, the daughter-in-law, who she blames for “stealing her son away”). The domineering mother-in-law’s actions are all about PROJECTION – she cannot admit that the problems in her relationship with her daughter-in-law (and possibly her son) come from HER nosiness, clinginess, intrusive behaviour, bad-mouthing her daughter-in-law…
    To suggest that the VICTIM should back down, and either tolerate such behaviour, or try to pacify the mother-in-law is extremely worrying. HOW do you think such behaviour makes a victim feel – the daughter-in-law already feels powerless, attacked, concerned, upset… You suggest a strategy to make her feel MORE like this? She is to BELIEVE and AGREE that her mother-in-law “outranks” her? Then why not just become a “doormat”?
    Wives have rights (you may be surprised to hear) – a right to life being one of them. They are just as free as anyone else to have opinions, jobs, thoughts, feelings, personal lives, hobbies… They are NOT secondary to a man, nor to his mother! Take such a notion one dangerous step further, and not only do you turn women’s rights back by hundreds of years – but you actually infer a justification for domestic abuse! NO WOMAN IS HER HUSBAND’S POSSESSION – NOR IS SHE, BY DEFAULT, HIS FAMILY’S.
    There are some men who may NEVER step up and take the lead, no matter how much their wives may want them to. Some men who never support and protect their wives. Some men, in fact, who batter their wives – who control their wives, or permit the wider family to control their wives. Who threaten, isolate and undermine their wives. You would TRUST such a man to take the lead and protect his wife, would you? You would suggest that a woman relinquish power to such a man? You would WANT a woman to be subordinate to a man whose family act like a “mafia” – belittling her, criticising her, sniggering at her, ignoring her, threatening her, talking behind her back, refusing to allow her to live her own life… and, ultimately, should she refuse to kow-tow to them – HARMING HER. ABUSING HER!
    A relationship, if healthy, is about trust, give and take, and communication. Husbands and wives ought to be able to talk openly and honestly together, and to come up with decisions together – to compromise. A mother-in-law has NO place in this marriage between a man and his wife. She ought to step back, and accept that her son has “flown the nest”. A mother’s role is NOT to cling onto her kids, ultimately suffocating them; it is to nurture them, and to rear them effectively, preparing them for the time when they should (and must) stand on their own two feet. WITHOUT HER INTERFERENCE.

  121. tumi says:

    I dont know what to do… Cause my mother inlaw say nasty things to me today then smile the next day with me. Its like im the crazy one here

  122. Look up “Gaslighting” – it’s a behavior designed to make the target think they’re nuts.

  123. secret says:

    I think my situation is a little bit different and I need help… My mother in law was abusive to my husband when he was a little boy and he did not speak to her for years. When he met me and we got married that is when he started his relationship with her. That was 12 years ago and since my husband has been ill from diabetes and other complications she has been really clinging to him and wanting us over all the time. But she is rude and disrespectful to me and my husband does not defend me he says nothing. She tells other family members that she loves them and call them loving names but to me nothing. She will not put any pictures of me and my husband just her and my husband and his brothers. She is constantly wanting him to move in with her but what she does not realize that he would never live with her. He would rather live in the streets. I have never seen her kiss him or hug him or anything kind of warmth towards him but to others she does. He tries to get what he can from her and does whatever she tells him to do. Every time we go visit she has a list for him to do and it drives me crazy. I tell her I love her and she does not respond to me. When we leave her house after being there sometimes for a week we are both exhausted and worn out. What can I do I am so fed up and I have shared this with my husband but that was just today and we have not really been talking since I brought it up to him.

  124. Me says:

    A mother in law does not own her son’s wife, nor does she dictate to that young wife In the young wife’s own home. If a mother in law wants to boss or dominate something, let her dominate her own household.

    Daughters in law, do not be fearful in your own home. When you see your husband’s mom approaching, get your kids and drive off. Do not allow her to abuse you and she does not have at rights over your kids. That is a myth. Tell her to F off and if your husband allows her o abuse you, go to your mother’s house for protection. You are not an animal. Do not permit anyone to abuse you and your babies.

  125. Me says:

    @ AJ Brown and Ellie, thank you two for speaking the truth on this site. The people here seem to be consumed with hate for women and also seem to think that a husband and a mother in law have some kind of mythical power to abuse a wife and daughter in law. Thank you too for your wise counsellor, because some young gullible wife may need to read your wise comments to help shield them for the anti women crowd on this site.

    Wow, never have seen so many hate filled men.

  126. Beckie says:

    I disagree.
    The husband is supposed to leave the home of his parents and cleave to his wife.
    The mother in law should acknowledge the new role God has given her and learn to accept it with love and patience, just as the daughter in law is learning her new role as the wife of her husband and doing the same.

  127. deti says:

    The ladies writing near the end of this thread, especially me, Ellie and Beckie, are missing the entire point of Dalrock’s original post.

    Go back and read it again, carefully this time.

    What’s being said is this: When you have a mother in law (MIL) running roughshod over her son and his wife, and the wife is feeling the pain of this, the dynamic is one where the “women are in charge”, or matriarchy. This is all wrong — it’s not how marriages are supposed to work. In a properly working biblical marriage, the husband is the head and he allows nothing – not even his own mother – to interfere.

    The wife could respond to that frustration and anger by pressuring the husband in a number of ways – complaining, nagging, even denying sex. But that’s only going to make it worse because it pits husband against his mother AND his wife, and requires him to fight a two-front war. Moreover, what makes it worse is that the MIL is in the power position, which is bad for two reasons: (1) MIL is wrongly stepping into a power vacuum because the son isn’t doing so; and (2) MIL is not supposed to have any power in her son’s marriage in the first place.

    The better response for the wife is to stand down and encourage her husband to step into his protector role. If he knows he is his wife’s head and protector, he’ll tell his mom to butt out. His marriage to his wife comes before his sonship relationship with his mother. If he’s encouraged to step into the power vacuum he can nudge MIL out. MIL might be miffed for a while but she’ll get over it. Wife is happy because husband led. All are happy because all three are in right relationship to one another.

  128. Lyn87 says:


    I just noticed that wall-of-projection that Ellie write on June 13, 2014 at 3:22 pm. And AJ Brown is equally out-there, while Me is cheering from the sidelines… lovely… another feminist hen party. Listen, Ladies, this is a place where men come to discuss man-things – if you want to spout feminist talking points, I’m sure the host will tolerate you (at least for a while), but you will be made to feel uncomfortable. If that makes you sad, remember that the slightest deviation from the feminist catechism on most feminist websites is met with instant banning, and also realize that your discomfort is likely coming from the fact that your female privilege – so much in evidence everywhere else – is not going to work very well around here.

    You may rebel against what your Women’s Studies prof calls “Teh Eeeeeeeeeeevil Pay-tree-ark-eeee,” but if not for the establishment of patriarchy you and your Women’s Studies prof would be living in grass huts, looking for a man to keep the wildlife at bay and hunt down some protein. Undermine it at your own risk.

    If you don’t want to experience the freedom and joy of living according to your design… don’t. Being a grown-up is hard (well… for men, anyway), and nobody here or anywhere else is going to make you. But if you decide to pretend to be “equal to men in every way,” you forfeit the right to live off the sweat of (mostly) male taxpayers, and you also forfeit the right to ask, “Where have all the good men gone?” when you realize – too late – the error of your ways. You’ll never find us – we’re either already married to actual women, or in hiding from women like the three of you.

  129. Boxer says:

    If he’s encouraged to step into the power vacuum he can nudge MIL out. MIL might be miffed for a while but she’ll get over it. Wife is happy because husband led. All are happy because all three are in right relationship to one another.

    This is one of the most brilliant deconstructive treatments that I have read. Little wonder all the feminists resent it.

  130. greyghost says:

    This is where you have a huge role to play. Build your husband up and give him full faith in you. Openly brag about your husband in front of his mother. Respect him always in front of her. And be physically affectionate with him regardless of what she thinks. Adjust your lifestyle to build up resources and confidence to where your family has no need for anything MIL has period. Make sure your husband understands mom will never love him ever. have your husband get to some in the manosphere including here http://heartiste.wordpress.com/

  131. BradA says:

    Me, you name seems appropriate.

    > When you see your husband’s mom approaching, get your kids and drive off.

    So she should become the mother-in-law herself ahead of time. And exactly who hates women here? You said that for all wives, not just those with abusive unrepentant mothers-in-law. Did you think this through? I would guess not.

    The wife should avoid being controlled by being controlling….

  132. Lyn87 says:

    Me says:
    July 1, 2014 at 12:34 am

    … get your kids and drive off…
    … you and your babies.

    What is it with women who think that children are their personal property? Guess what? For centuries the laws in almost every civilized country recognized that bastard children belong to their mothers, while legitimate children belong to their fathers. Before you and your fellow hens go all atwitter over that, I have something for you to read (if you dare) –

    Click to access Case_for_Father_Custody.pdf

    You may have heard the old saying, “Before you tear down a fence, find out why it was built there in the first place.” There are some very good reasons why every generation prior to this one understood that legitimate children were his children. But what’s 6000 years of civilization compared to the “vast knowledge” of a bunch of harridans who don’t know anything about anything that happened before the Seneca Falls Convention (and not much that has happened since, come to think about it). Feminism is all about tearing down social structures they naively think are tools of oppression, rather than the bulwarks of civilization that they are.

  133. riovickie50 says:

    Are children are adults. We have no children together.

    Sent from my iPhone

  134. riovickie50 says:

    That’s great advice. She hates when we are close to each other. She like plans ways to make us fight. I hate going there because of the dirtiness in the house and roaches. We’ve been married over 10 years and his father just recently died and she has gotten worse. I get stomache ache when I know we have to go there which is pretty soon.

    Sent from my iPhone [Redacted]

  135. JDG says:

    You may have heard the old saying, “Before you tear down a fence, find out why it was built there in the first place.” There are some very good reasons why every generation prior to this one understood that legitimate children were his children. But what’s 6000 years of civilization compared to the “vast knowledge” of a bunch of harridans who don’t know anything about anything that happened before the Seneca Falls Convention (and not much that has happened since, come to think about it). Feminism is all about tearing down social structures they naively think are tools of oppression, rather than the bulwarks of civilization that they are.

    Beautifully written.

  136. BradA says:

    So Ellie, what exactly does a husband get from marriage? Does she owe him anything after she marries him or should he plan on just being happy for whatever scraps she throws his way?

    Who makes the decisions when they are in disagreement and cannot agree? That usually means the wife is in charge because she can stop or start almost anything and he has to follow along. That is not the COUPLE relationship you shout, but a female led one. Someone will always lead and it is much better if it is the one God made for that role than the one who has the sinful desire to do so. (Look at the words in Genesis. The same “desire” the woman is told she would have for her husband was the one sin had to rule over Cain. We know where the latter led and we are seeing where the former leads today.

  137. feeriker says:

    Someone will always lead and it is much better if it is the one God made for that role than the one who has the sinful desire to do so. (Look at the words in Genesis. The same “desire” the woman is told she would have for her husband was the one sin had to rule over Cain. We know where the latter led and we are seeing where the former leads today.

    I get the distinct impression, based on the tone and content of their comments, that very few of the hens posting here care one wit about what this “God” guy has to say about anything.

  138. In my case, (when my husband took over) my mother in law escalated her toxic behavior.

  139. J. says:

    It’s not always wise to leave it up to the husband, especially when he was raised around the lady, so when she does things that are not normal he doesn’t realize it. My fiance didn’t realize for several years that his mothers behavior wasn’t normal, she had acted this way his entire life. She tried to treat him like her replacement husband, it was sickening and disturbing. She would call his cell phone 50+ times a day, regardless if he was at work on top of a 3 story roof. If she called and he didn’t answer, she would call back to back until he would finally pick up the phone. Unfortunately we live right next door to her, so everyday when he came home from work she would call his phone the second he pulled into the driveway, if he didn’t answer she walked across the yard to bang on our door anytime we left the house for any reason, she started calling him, asking where he was going, what is he doing? We couldn’t leave the house without her sticking her nose in our business every single time.. she expected him to drop everything, day or night and come to her house when she said so. She tried so hard to ruin our relationship, she would stop at nothing. He told her that she needed to stop calling and coming by so much, he explained it put a strain on our relationship. She got WORSE, that’s when he began to realize that she didn’t respect our boundaries, she was acting this way on purpose in hopes of splitting us up. She treated me horribly, ALWAYS had mean, snide remarks to make when my fiance was in the next room. She was mean to me from day 1, and just for the record I was ALWAYS nice and respectful to her. She didn’t even give me a chance, all I wanted was for her to like me because I am marrying her son. She is the definition of narcissistic, she’s was always playing the victim if he told her to back off, always making up nothing but LIES about me, just so his family hates me too. In her eyes, I am the devil woman that stole her baby boy’s attention from her. I bent over backwards trying to please her, I was her own personal merry maid. I always had to clean her filthy, disgusting house because she was such a lazy sloth. Every time I was nice and respectful, I got hateful comments in return. It got to the point where I dreaded going to her house because she was so mean to me, I tolerated her treating me like sh!t for 4 years before I ever even brought it up to my fiance. It’s not like I went tattling to him over every little hateful comment. NO, it took 4 YEARS of her brow beating me, making me feel like I was NOTHING, before I finally told her son what was going on. If what you think applied to all men, they would love their mommy and do nothing, while the wife sits in silence and “behaves” herself. ALL men would be single momma’s boys and if this is how you think, then it’s truly sad…I mean come on, after 4 years of constant verbal abuse was I supposed to sit quietly and say or do nothing? I guess the wife’s feelings mean nothing right? As long as the husband and his mommy are happy, that’s all that matters. And for the record, I NEVER threatened to leave my fiance or withhold sex because his mother is a manipulating monster. I stuck by his side regardless of the bullshit she did to me, and I haven’t even told you the half of the shit she put me through. I sincerely hope his mother dies alone, because that is what she deserves for being such a horrible, mean person that thinks the universe needs to revolve around HER.

  140. baltics love says:

    Agh didn’t work,she saw it as her chance to overide us both and now feels since I’ve backed down(I haven’t njust have tried to be quiter)that she sweetens him more n leaves me out..

    For her its a power struggle, n my quietness a sign of defeat…..

    Hubby blind to this, but I notice it and I seem to lose my voice nowadays,

  141. neha says:

    I would like some solution for my mother in law issue.
    My husband is lead of our family. he has a younger brother too. My husband is bit innocent and family boy. My mother in law demands money from him indirectly. He is doing all what he can do. Still mother in law n father in law too play politics for small amounts. now my brother in law has started playing same politics. they just want money. This is one problem.
    Second problem is they always try to make me n my husband fight. They become good in his eyes by tricks and tried a lot to make me wrong in his eyes. My husband sometimes understand me but the problem is he is nt saving single money fr our future. after doing all this they keep him emotionally blackmail for nt treating them well.
    After all this they encourage him nt to have kid fr 5 years. becoz they know if kid will come he will reduce spending on them. I m very sad and in pain. please help me by telling me some trciks.

    Please mail me [redacted]

  142. Dalrock says:

    Welcome Neha,

    That is a very difficult but unfortunately not uncommon situation. My advice would be the same as in the original post. Most wives think that if they put enough pressure on their husbands their husband will stand up to their mothers. However, what this does is put him in a position of trying to mediate between two women who are pressuring him. Also, as I mentioned this also basically makes him your messenger, and his mother feels free to dismiss your messenger just like she dismisses you.

    What I would suggest is to stop telling your husband what to do, and instead reinforce his position of leadership. I wrote some ideas on how to do this here. From there, it would be ok to simply state that you are submitting to his leadership, and explain that you will trust his judgment in how he handles his mother but that you also humbly request that he protect you from her as much as possible. The key thing is the change has to be real, otherwise he will continue to respond with an effort to placate two women.

    I know this is exactly the opposite of what society tells us a wife should do, but keep in mind that if pressuring your husband worked you wouldn’t be having this problem.

    Good luck!

  143. Ellie says:

    And, Neha, a fight takes two people. It is dignified to refuse to engage in an argument. A peaceful heart, a peaceful speech. Choosing the role of peace often means absorbing insults, letting them roll off your back, forgetting them, while focusing on your main goal: a peaceful and quiet married life. You do not have to engage every provocation. You are in self-control boot camp. Peace starts with you. Sooner or later, your husband will wake up and notice your gentle and quiet spirit and resist being manipulated into picking fights with you. You are playing the long game.

    This is his problem to solve. Never solve or attempt to solve a man’s problems for him. It always leads to trouble.

  144. Party R says:

    I have trouble with my sister in law trying to control the household. And the sad part is my husband lets her.

  145. MARICIA says:


  146. Sarah says:

    Great post! But now I am going to give a twist on the situation and see what you would say in terms of solving it. My husband grew up with a very demeaning and cruel mom who rules her husband and her sons with anger and guilt. Her husband, who is now in his late 60’s, is too scared to continue to stand up to her and allows her to bully him and their children. My husband says he married me because while I am a strong person in the right way (stand up for the underdog and have iron clad integrity and morals) I am also gentle, loving, and do not yell or punish. I am also a faithful Christian.

    So my MIL has been trying to break up our marriage for 12 years because she did not pick me. (These folks are American and not religious by the way so picking wives is about her control and not a cultural or religious norm). My MIL one time physically attacked me in my home while my infant son was in my arms. She attacked me because my husband stood up to her. She assumed I had brainwashed him because she had “trained” her son to never stand up. Now my husband did remove her from the home and went no contact for a while. Years passed and we would see them from time to time but an apology was never made because my MIL believed I had what was coming to me and deserved the attack.

    My husband has set the rule that we won’t vis with them until his mom can interact with me without physically or verbally attacking me. And so we don’t visit and they don’t see the kids. (She has attacked our kids too in the past). Now my father in law is putting press and guilt on my husband and telling him his mom will never change and so we need to accept her as she is, attacks and all. Luckily my husband doesn’t agree but he is getting migraines from the stress and guilt. I leave it to him to be the protector and the head of the family but have made it crystal clear that I will refuse to put myself and kids in danger. Something must change before we visit with them again.

    Now in these situations where the father in law sets the precedent of allowing himself to be over powered by this woman is there any hope?

    My answer is going to be no because she has gotten quite comfortable with bullying everyone and her husband and sons give in. It has literally been a lifetime of reinforcing her bad behavior. I would also like to say I have a master’s in clinical psychology. My diagnosis would be that she has a personal disorder and my husband was the first one to actually bring it up as an explanation since he works in the medical field.

    What are your thoughts on this? Can it be changed and what has to happen?

  147. Lyn87 says:

    Sarah, the first thing to realize is that an advanced degree in clinical psychology just means that you’ll probably get the wrong answer here. The term I normally use for psychologists is “shaman in a suit.” Modern psychology is simply incompatible with Biblical Christianity – the number one reason being that it re-classifies sin as disorder.

    Your FIL has allowed himself to be dominated by your MIL, and allowed her to set herself up as the arbiter of everyone’s behavior. Other than prayer and encouragement, there’s probably not much you can do for him, but you can be a help-meet to your husband to stand up to her. At the end of the day, it’s his call, though.

    Somewhat tangential, but you should be very careful throwing around phrases like “in danger” unless there’s real danger. Most of us are men, and a lot of us here have been in actual shooting wars. I won’t presume to speak for everyone, but when I hear people in the “soft sciences” use words like “unsafe” and “danger” to describe situations with no possibility of serious harm, it says “over-reaction” to me.

    Having said that, based solely on what you wrote, I would probably recommend to your husband to avoid the old girl except on neutral ground, assuming that is feasible. If she were just snarky it might be a different matter, but since she’s been physically violent in the past it might be best to only interact with her in public. I’m guessing that she lives some distance away, so if your husband decides that “honor thy father and mother” should include a visit, you might consider staying at a hotel and meeting your in-laws in public settings like restaurants. If she balks at that, somebody might have to tell her that it is her behavior that is causing that restriction.

  148. Sarah says:

    Hi Lyn,

    Thank you so much for your quick response 🙂
    That is very kind of you to reply so quickly.

    The suggestion about meeting in a public place or getting a hotel has been flatly rejected time and again for several years. My husband has also verbally walked his mom through the events that caused the rift and she only ends up yelling over him and then crying to her husband. Her husband (my husbands dad) then calls my husband and says to stop making his life miserable by implying that his mom did something to cause a rift. Then they get in a yelling match and his dad usually hangs up.

    No one talks for some time until my husband reaches out to his dad out of guilt. He and his dad have a good relationship via phone and then one of the kid’s birthdays arrives. Once again my husband states he suggests that they get a hotel and we pay for the hotel stay and meals. My father in law relays that message to my mother in law and once again she blows her top and yells at my FIL to put my husband in line. And on and on it goes.

    How do I react? I thank my husband for trying and tell him that I sincerely regret we can’t be one big happy family. I never withhold sex, I do not shame or demean my husband. In fact even when we disagree and have fought I have never called him an unkind name. I am responsible for my own behavior and I do not return yelling with more yelling. I also do not hurt or seek revenge. Today was my mother in law’s birthday. My husband had a day off and last night he hugged me and asked if we could spend the afternoon “snuggling” in our bedroom since the kids were at school. I enthusiastically said yes and was looking forward to it. But low and behold he called his mom this morning to say Happy Birthday. All it took was her to be her usual self and he developed a debilitating migraine while on the phone. After that he went back to bed and slept all day while I cleaned. (Husband even sheepishly admitted he is so stressed by his mom the migraine was a result of the conversation).

    I just keep on being supportive.

    I will also add that yes my MIL is dangerous. When my husband was 8 he did something to make her mad and she chased him with a butcher knife threatening to kill him. Her husband had to restrain her. She also took a knife after my FIL while he slept.

    It’s funny to read all of this because my in laws are educated and live an upper middle class lifestyle. To strangers they would appear to be normal since the true colors come out only when the doors are closed and blinds are shut. She was also very abusive to my husband and he shamefully trickles out information everyone once in a while. The stories are very bad.


  149. Sarah says:

    PS- thanks for sending that link along about Christianity and psychology. I will read it when I get a chance but I am absolutely in agreement about the fallacy of classifying sin as a disorder. This reclassification has done a tremendous amount of harm to society because it erases accountability as well as the need to repent, ask for forgive ness and turn away from sinful actions.

    So why did I study clinical psychology? Well more and more Christians are looking to therapists for help. (By the way, I write on psychology topics and choose not to practice professionally since it would force me to work outside the home many hours per week). I help through writing. I also studied it because I was a rather naieve persin for so long. Studying psychology allowed me to better understand that not everyone’s motivations are good and why they might do destructive things such as abuse others or become addicted to substances. Anyhow I love writing about psych topics and helping others heal that way. Of course I pray too since God is the ultimate authority.

  150. Lyn87 says:


    I may have some perspective that can help. My wife has a degenerative disease that is exacerbated by stress. It turns out that her sisters stress the crap out of her. Once, a few years ago, one of her sisters came to visit for a few days. She left one morning and I got a call from my pastor at work… he and his wife were with my wife in the emergency room because she got alarmingly ill just a few hours after her sister left.

    My wife loves her family, of course, but it’s my job to protect her – even from herself and the stress her family causes her. She gets very ill when she gets over-stressed. I have since laid down the law about setting boundaries for her family. In my case I can do what needs to be done without upsetting anyone very much, but I do sometimes have to make hard calls. On the other hand, I’m always Johnie-on-the-spot whenever her family is involved to take as much of the pressure off her as I can: so I end up running a lot of interference. I’ll always remember constructing her mother’s headstone the morning of her funeral… in the rain, on their front porch, with a bunch of bricks, a bag of Quickrete, and a piece of tailpipe (no, I’m not kidding), to pacify her other sister who wanted a “flower vase” attached. It was surreal for me, but it left my wife free to concentrate on things other than the fact that her mother’s home-made redneck headstone had a piece of tailpipe cemented to it to hold flowers. Did I mention my BIL and I digging the hole at the cemetery by hand later that morning? The bottom line is that I did what had to be done to protect her from having an exacerbation, which could have been very serious.

    I can’t tell you what to do, of course – I can only tell you what I might recommend to your husband if he were asking. He faces a tough challenge since his mother is the problem – I only had to / have to deal with my in-laws, and even then not very often. I would tell him that his first obligation is to you in this case, and that once he has taken care of what you need, he can address what his parents want with whatever is left over.

    Keep in mind that it’s got to bother him to see his own father being played like a Stradivarius, but that’s the path your FIL chose. My paternal grandfather was like that… married to a matriarch. At some point he just decided that giving in was easier than fighting, I guess. My grandmother was nasty to my mother (not chasing-with-a-butcher-knife nasty, but verbally so), and my mother generally avoided her company. My father ran interference, although maybe not as much as my mother would have liked. Than again, she never told the old lady off either, but she certainly seethed. She used to say that she wished she could write her epitaph: “Here lies XXXX XXXX: she had four sons, but only enough love for two.” As Yoda might say, “Harsh, that is.” So to you I’d say that he needs your support in dealing with his family: his parents are putting him in a tough spot… maybe tougher than the one they’re putting you in.

  151. Sarah says:

    Hi Lyn,

    I am very sorry to hear that your wife’s illness is exacerbated by stress. It seems that it would be necessary for contact with her sisters to be avoided literally to preserve her health and peace of mind. It’s great that you are there to literally save her from it. And that’s a wild story about the tombstone. I am guessing that family is dysfunctional on many levels. Good thing you are there to shield your wife.

    Over the course of my life I have come to the conclusion that it is not un-Christian or “bad” to avoid toxic family members if it is going to cause very real and very negative repercussions on innocents. Of course it’s the adult innocent himself or herself who needs to make that decision. (Children on the other hand need to be protected against violent family members). Another controversial topic is grandparents rights. I do not believe violent or destructive grandparents have a right to see grandchildren. (The same goes for violent or toxic moms. In custody battles I do not believe they have a right to custody since a woman has torn up the proverbial mother card when she abuses her children. When I use the word abuse I am not referring to discipline. I am referring to the very real emotional abuse and physical abuse that some women dole out). My husband recounted a time when he was 13. He was abused so badly one day that he left home and walked 5 miles to the police station. By the time he arrived he found his parents had already called and told the police he was a troubled child and had left home. When my husband recounted his story to the police they put him in the police scar, scolded him, and drove him home. I am going to admit that stories like these make me believe that there are people in this world who are evil. There is a difference between people who do evil and people who ARE evil.

    There is another random question I have and anyone else chime in too.

    I was raised in a mainstream Christian home– family and extended family are staunch Presbyterian and Methodist. They are very low key and pragmatic and don’t discuss things such as demonic force. Sometimes I wonder if my mother in law has been possessed because she hates people who believe in God and admits to practicing witchcraft. It was interesting because she could sense my own “energy or spirit” before she met me. She had heard wonderful things but attempted to get my husband to break it off. He wouldn’t do it, obviously. She does not share the same hatred for my other sister in law who is also an atheist and who is also hateful. Sometimes I wonder if I am in a spiritual battle.

    Does that sound strange to anyone and do possessions exist in this day and age?

    Anyone have thoughts on this?

  152. Dianne says:

    My MIL destroyed my marriage. Actually, I was the second wife and she destroyed her sons first marriage as well.
    He was her only child and surrogate husband although her husband was alive and well. But, when I met my ex, both of his parents were involved in extra-marital affairs. My ex was embarrassed by them and kept me as far away from them as possible. Until… they both broke off their affairs. Overnight, I didn’t have a husband anymore, but rather rather married to a man who bent to “the other womans” will.
    They went on vacations together, dinner, shows, shopping, visiting family and HIS friends, while I was left out. It was as if SHE was the wife and I was the mistress. They were together almost constantly.
    She would call him at 7am to wake him up and again at 10pm before she went to bed. God forbid I should have some time alone with my husband. When I told/asked him not to answer the phone, he professed that it “may be important”. He knew it wasn’t and knew exactly what she was doing.

    The payoff came when during one of their pillowtalk calls, She told him she wanted to take a bubble bath and needed bath bubbles. Instead of sending out her husband, MY husband got into the car, bought the damn bubbles and drove 30 miles to deliver them. But, it went further…Much further. He delivered the bubbles, ran her a bath, lit candles and stayed with her, while she bathed, playing his guitar for her. I assume there was nudity involved. What’s more…He came home in the wee hours and told me this as if it was the most normal thing in the world! I don’t think my stomach could have dropped and twisted anymore than it did.

    Just before the divorce, I found out his grandmother ( MIL’s mother) did the same to her three sons. She ruins one sons marriage, wouldn’t allow the other two to get married and used the threat of being disinherited to keep them in line. My exMIL did the same. So, this was a learned, pathological behavior.

    BTW- exMIL got ADDS from her last fling and died right after the divorce.

  153. Don’t feel the need to explain or defend yourself. Doing so will get you nowhere but more frustrated. Just say what you feel is factual, then go back to the other strategies without trying to defend or criticize. Your job here is to protect yourself from feeling overwhelmed. With some practice your mother-in-law will learn that she isn’t upsetting you, but that her insults land back on her doorstep.

    If your husband is agreeable you might ask him to help role-play with you to build up your skill. This may help the two of you bond over the issue as well.

  154. laura. says:

    What do you do if you have a evil and just crazy mother n law? Example.: she called the law on me bc my daughter had a wet diaper and she told me I was neglecting my daughter even though she is 7 months old and has never had a diapers rash. I’m talking horrible extremely things as such and my husband is blinded by anything she says so I don’t know what to do. Anyone?

  155. John Nesteutes says:


    You let your husband take care of it.

  156. laura. says:

    I have tried that route too but in his head his mother can do know wrong. She got mad and didn’t talk to us the last 4 months and they were a wonderful fight free 4 months but know she is back and still think I was the problem! She all the sudden comes back and wants him and my daughter only to go see her on my first mothers day. Talking to him about it just makes him mad. Letting him guide the situation last time almost caused a divorce so this I why I turned to the Internet because Im lost and just don’t know what to do

  157. Sarah's Daughter says:

    Letting him guide the situation last time almost caused a divorce

    He almost divorced you?

    Or, you almost divorced him?

  158. Robin Munn says:

    To Dianne who posted on December 15th,

    You may never read this, but your story is a tragedy. You divorced your husband* based on his inability to free himself from his controlling mother… just a few weeks or months before he would have been freed from her. So instead of having the good marriage you could have had if you had just stuck it out a little longer, you chose to throw it all away. Tragic.

    If it isn’t too late, try to reconcile with him and see if you can rebuild your marriage. Your choice to divorce him may have broken things beyond repair, but you may still have a chance to make things right. (If you ever come back and read this, of course).

    * You never explicitly said who divorced whom, but nonetheless it’s abundantly clear how it went.

  159. laura says:

    Sarah’s Daughter,
    Both to be honest. She always tells him I don’t love him, Im just using him ec…even though I was living in Colorado and moved away from everything i knew all my friends my career my home to come move to Texas to get married so im not sure were she gets this stuff. He started acting on it every time we got into an argument he would call her she would tell him to get me to leave and id end up at my parents house for a few days so eventually i had enough. She stop talking to us four months ago and we haven’t fought but one time and now she is back. After trying to talk to my husband about this yesterday it was made very clear that she doesn’t think she has done anything wrong… Now he wants me to spend my first mothers day with her instead of the plans we had made for that day.
    Im so worried that her coming back into our lives is going to be just as bad as last time and i cant go through that again. So if I cant talk to him about it and she would just use the conversation against me then i don’t know what to do.
    We went to marriage counseling and in a session he didn’t go to even she told me from what she hears it sounds like she would benefit from some medicine or in patient care. I have to say if y’all only new everything im sure you would agree too.
    so what should my next step be? Just let her do what she did before or stand up for myself and try to set boundaries before it gets to far again?

  160. John Nesteutes says:

    It’s his MOTHER. It’s MOTHER’S DAY. Let the man spend mother ‘s day honouring his mother, regardless of how you feel about her.

    And nothing almost “caused a divorce” other than you or him choosing to divorce, which is wrong for either of you to do.

  161. laura. says:

    I told him I’d go over ther since after all it is mothers day and I have to see her again eventually. However when I asked him to stick up for his wife and try to get her to see why I’m so upset he just got mad at me left at 3 this morning to work cows and it’s almost 8 and I haven’t heard from him so I guess mothers day is ruined anyways. I did try to talk campy and respectful to him about it and he didn’t want to hear any of it since I did marry this biggest mommas boy I’ve ever met. It’s hard to just get over things and be fake when she did some extremely horrible things and threatened to take my daughter away all because she woke up with a wet diaper! I’m am a momma bear when it comes to my baby girl and I was willing to give up my first mothers day for a woman who has ignored us for 4 months however when I earned that she wanted to see if I’ve changed and have become a real mom that’s when I became angry. She is the only person the has ever thought I wasn’t. Good mom and hS no reason to think that. Especially since when my husband was a shill she would drive him to school wait in the parking lot and get drunk then drive them home drunk.

  162. Im so worried that her coming back into our lives is going to be just as bad as last time and i cant go through that again.

    Can’t? What “can’t”?

    Unless there is literally a gun to your head you can and you should. Difficult? Of course, but nobody promised easy.

  163. Laura says:

    Just to keep the record straight, Laura with a capital L and laura with a small L are NOT the same person.

    @John Nesteutes — laura with a small L is ALSO a mother. As her child is seven months old, this is her very first Mother’s Day. Her husband would normally be expected to do something nice for both his mother and his wife. Apparently, he and laura made special Mother’s Day plans that didn’t include MIL, but MIL later talked him into changing the plans completely so that the plans for Mother’s Day are now what the MIL wants instead of what laura and her husband had originally agreed to do.

    This doesn’t necessarily apply to laura and her situation, but some of the previous posters who are truly dealing with in-laws with personality disorders might want to try “crowding the house” with additional people when the in-laws come to stay. It doesn’t work with everybody, but a lot of nasty, sarcastic, belittling people will reign themselves in when they are in a social situation that includes people that they consider to be “outsiders.” The solution to a relative who calls on the phone all day long is to get a second phone, if confronting them with a log of how many phone calls that they have been making to you during work hours, etc., has no effect on their behavior.

    Some of the situations previously described in this thread, such as the manipulative parents-in-law who want their son to endlessly postpone having children because it would reduce his ability to give them gifts are VERY difficult. Unless the adult child of the dysfunctional parent is willing to do whatever it takes (including breaking off the relationship for a period of time) to set things right, some of these marriages are going to be very troubled, and some are going to end in divorce.

  164. Sarah's Daughter says:

    Your husband will decide who he believes. You are only in control and responsible for your behavior and attitude. Be your huband’s help meet. That’s what he needs from you. If he wants you to put up with her crap, help him in putting up with her crap – and stop getting so emotional about it. You’ll do nothing with your worrying and fretting. If you are a Christian, pray. And do as God has asked you to do, respect him – without judgement or reservation. Don’t compete with his mother, you serve a different role. As for her, follow his lead. If he is kind to her, be kind to her. If he tolerates her, then tolerate her. Do not gossip – you only make things worse when you add sinful behavior to an already challenging situation. Do not covet his relationship or commitment to her.
    Life is not always fair, many times we need to swallow all of those feelings we have when we feel justified in airing them out to the world. You aren’t justified in doing that. Suck it up and be a good wife to your husband. Yours is not the worst situation in the world and dealing with it maturely and rationally will net huge benefits for you – emotionally, spiritually and in your relationships.

  165. laura. says:

    OK so I finally said ok I’ll let my husband try to handle the situation with his mother and I’ll just support whatever he decides to do. We finally had a long discussion were I was able to tell him my fears about her coming back into our lives I also told him I didn’t mind spending my first mothers day seeing her since it is his mother . He and I came up with bounderies (such as showing up to visit for a few hours and leaving three days later) and I guess you can say rules for when she wants to be full time back and involved with our family.
    Just praying this time doesn’t get out of hand like the past year but I’m hopeful and willing to try I just hope she is willing to find that balance

  166. sn0rkmaiden says:

    as I’m not married myself so I don’t feel qualified to give any advice here, but I am very sorry to hear about your predicament and understand that there is no cookie cutter, one size fits all style of marital guidance out there, everyone’s situation is different.

    Good luck with however you choose to proceed. Same goes for anyone on here having a hard time with toxic family members.

  167. John Nesteutes says:


    My concern with the town of laura’s post is that it’s all about her. She’s the one with the grave suffering because of how her mother in law treats her.

    What about what her husband is going through, if his mother truly does have a personality disorder?

    It’s her husband’s job to deal with the mother. I’m sure the mother’s craziness was well known before the wedding. And I’m sure if her husband is a “momma’s boy” that was obvious, too, if not to laura, then one of her friends or family would have noticed and brought it up.

    She knew what she was marrying into, decided to do it anyway, and now wants a free pass to complain about it or try to control her husband, who from the looks of things has a difficult situation to deal with.

  168. laura says:

    John Nesteutes,
    Yes I realize my post was all about me however I also get the feeling you could care less about putting yourself in my shoes and you really shouldn’t assume i knew how big of a “mommas boy” and how big of an issue she would be in my marriage. When we first got married she was not in
    his life anymore since she was struggling with alcohol . When we married she showed back up. I understand what your saying I should take in consideration for how he feels and I do all I want is some boundaries.
    @ the other Laura
    Thank you for seeing what I was upset about on mothers day. It wasn’t that I wouldn’t go over and make a mends to her because it was mothers day but he built me up over my first mothers day for weeks before and it was like all the sudden my first mothers day wasn’t important. We did end up having a wonderful day and i offered to go to his moms or cook for her if she wanted to come over.

  169. John Nesteutes says:

    If your husband’s mother was an alcoholic, you knew exactly what you were marrying into. The fact she wasn’t around then didn’t imply she wouldn’t be around in the future.

    I know quite a bit about being in your shoes. That’s why I’m calling you to task for your selfishness. It seems from what you just described that you chose a less-selfish path, and mostly chose to vent her.

    I am glad you chose a less-selfish path, but I would admonish you to stop speaking such ill things about your husband. Put yourself in his shoes instead, and figure out how to support him. He’s got a long, unpleasant life ahead of him with the situation with his mother.

  170. laura says:

    Your right I shouldn’t speak poorly about my husband. However do not assume that I knew what I was getting into because I didn’t. You really have no idea what your talking about. If you only knew everything you would probably be giving different advice. I do love mu husband but yes over the course of the first year of being married there has been extremely bad things happened that I try to forget but somethings are just not that easy to move past. I do not believe in divorce so I have tried to make some boundaries when it comes to her. I will not give on this issue for certain reasons that I grantee any mother that was in my position would be doing the same.
    Like I aid you make think I am not being a supportive loving wife and daughter in law however you really don’t know what I am talking about when I say she did some really horrible things. So stop assuming that its a normal tense relationship between us because it was not.

    [D: If I have some time this weekend I might write a follow up post addressing your comments.]

  171. John Nesteutes says:

    You and your husband have issues if you can say this in a public forum:

    “I did marry this biggest mommas boy I’ve ever met.”

    Men like to be respected and calling him a momma’s boy is not respect.

  172. Pingback: Revisiting the question of a troublesome mother in law. | Dalrock

  173. Laura says:

    @laura with a small “l”

    When my parents were first married, my mother patiently put up with my father’s alcoholic uncles dropping by whenever they chose. As my eldest sibling reached toddlerhood, my mother suggested to my father that he ask his uncles NOT to come over “if they have been drinking” as she did not want my brother to witness their drunkenness. My father did so, and the result was that their unannounced visits ceased, as their overindulgence in alcohol meant more to them than visiting.

    Perhaps you could give the subject a rest for six months, and then ask your husband to consider your MILs drinking problem and how it relates to the social environment that you and your husband would like for your child, and let your husband figure out what needs to be done to achieve that.

    My parents, siblings & ex-husband were all light drinkers, so I have zero experience with Al-Anon, etc., but I guarantee you that a lot of other couples have been exactly where you and your husband are right now with regard to your MIL, and I would ask others how they handled the situation. They may have some creative suggestions that you and your husband have never considered.

    Best wishes,
    Laura with a Capital L

  174. Linda says:

    BS if i had done that she would have continued to run all over me nd that wuss would have let her! She mother inlaw is a home wrecker a.d a hypocrit who needed what i finally did when i finally got sick of her abuse and being controlling i stood up to her face and told her what a bitch she and her daughter were for the first time in her life and that shed betyer quit illegally interfering and then i moved out and left my husband!

    Now he wakes up, but its too late im done!

  175. Jenna says:

    This is the one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I’ve read in a while. I think I’d pass on any man who ‘needs tools of manipulation’ from his wife to get some balls and tell his mom to get her own life OR has to be made to feel like a big boy and in a position of power over his wife. If sadly you are married, your wife is not happy. Trust on this one. But what a nice set up for you right?

  176. laura says:

    just an update and maybe this might help some others. Since I have last wrote things have been absolutely wonderful in our marriage!
    I knew having his mother back in our lives would be horrible and unbearable but I also knew being the barrier between my husband and his mother trying to come back into our lives would also end in the same result. I decided to start sending her pictures trying to show her I was accepting her arrival back into our lives. She never responded not even one time but when my husband used my phone he seen the messages called her to ask why she never responded and she told him she had nothing to say or she would have.this continued with me offering to drive an hour away so she could see the baby and some other nice gestures but the more i accept the situation the more it ticks her off and now she no longer wants to come over or put her two cents in on anything negative.
    So its been nice! Haven’t heard from her and my husband told her on the phone in front of me to not say anything negative about his wife to him or don’t bother calling. (this would never have happened in the past)
    So nice gestures and letting my husband lead the situation fully, with no side comments on my part has helped greatly. Although yes this is exactly what I tried in the past and it didn’t help at all but this time around I guess bc now he doesn’t take small gestures like that for granted anymore.

  177. JDG says:

    Linda says:
    June 8, 2015 at 3:42 pm
    BS if i had done that she would have continued to run all over me nd that wuss would have let her … and then i moved out and left my husband!

    Yeah, that was a winning strategy. /sarc
    Mother in law – 1
    Marriage – 0

    Jenna says:
    June 24, 2015 at 3:53 am
    This is the one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I’ve read in a while. I think I’d pass on any man who ‘needs tools of manipulation’ from his wife to get some balls …

    On behalf of all the men you “passed” on I’d like to say thank you.

    … But what a nice set up for you right?

    What, caught between a nagging MIL and a nagging wife? Only a woman could think of this as a “nice” set up.

  178. JDG says:

    Linda and Jenna,

    Next time bring SAMMICHES!!!

  179. Dalrock says:

    Well done laura.

  180. Boxer says:

    Dear Linda:

    Now he wakes up, but its too late im done!

    You surely are “done” and it is certainly “too late” for you. You went from being the honorable wife of a good man, to being a skank ho wimminz, with a proven track record of breaking your most important commitments. No remarriage for you. No man will ever take you seriously again. Your mother-in-law will now have the benefit of your ex-husband’s provisioning, and you’re out on your sorry ass.

    Too bad you couldn’t be smart like Laura, no? Oh well. The world needs its harlots. Hopefully you will give good value for the money spent.



  181. Pingback: Well done | Dalrock

  182. My MIL is a retired police woman, she has a very strong personality. Her marriage only lasted 3 years and she didn’t have a college education. She always tries to make me feel small every time i say something, like when I share my opinion about anything, she always oppose to make it look like I am wrong just for the heck of it. Even in the medical side of things, I am a nurse and she always says things to make me feel that what i am doing is wrong. Sometimes, i just don’t state my opinions anymore because she always maneuver the conversation to her advantege and make me feel like I’m always wrong. My husband rarely takes my side. We are living with my MIL since my husband can not live her because he feels obligated to be with her. She made him feel this way because she said ” I built a big house so my children can still stay with me even when they get married.” I was ok with this because i saw she was good to me before we got married and now I see the real her and she is awful. I need help, what do i do?

  183. Ann says:

    This is a creative idea but surely not very applicable for those daughter in laws who have a Narcissistic mother in law who refuses to change or treat people with respect. Some mother in laws will also attack their sons, and do anything they feel they must to control their grandchlidren. It is so sad, but a daugther in law often has no say in how the mother in law will repsect her husband. An even more complex scenario occurs when the mother in law has always been used to running everyone in the family’s lives, pouts and cries at his wedding and tells the wife that she never thought he would get married.

    [D: See this.]

  184. Sameera says:

    I would never in hells chance like to be seen with my mother in law after all that she has put me through the respect ain’t there anymore after her severing at me and calling my parents down she’s damn right rude and I’m sik of her sometimes I just wish she would dig a hole and lye in it to give me some peace ✌

  185. Faith says:

    I found this page by accident. Some of the comments here are weird. No one gets salvation from the act of Baptism. To be saved you have to believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as your Lord and Savior. Baptism is a outward showing of commitment to Him. You can be baptized til you’re blue in the face and it doesn’t matter if you don’t know Jesus. And to the posters that keep talking about strict restrictions on women, that is arrogant. We should never want to oppress anyone but “esteem others as better than our selves”, Phillipians 2:3, and want liberty and the pursuit of happiness for everyone. Jesus gives us freedom in Him whether a man or woman. We should treat others as we would want to be treated and promote the freedom that there is in Christ alone. Oppression is not of God.

  186. No one gets salvation from the act of Baptism.

    so when Scripture says “Baptism now saves us” – it was wrong…


  187. There is an additional line of defense against a difficult mother-in-law that is not discussed here, but is a very valid option. I had to deal with the worlds worst MIL and as a coping method I write this funny list of gift ideas for when you want to give a gift to your MIL that appears genuine, but might accidentally kill her: http://whattogetyou.com/mother-in-law-gift-ideas.html

    Every time I read this it puts a smile on my face…even if I have never actually tried any of these – the thought alone is enough to relieve some MIL induced stress!

  188. @lori
    “I always tell the women I mentor to love their mother-in-laws, heaping burning coals upon their heads…overcoming evil with good. Since we are called to love our enemies, surely this must mean to love, truly love, our mother-in-laws and when you love a difficult one, you bring God glory.”

    That wasn’t the point of the article, Lori. If you noticed, the point was to get the man to grow a pair, not for the wife to try her own direct attack by heaping burning coals on the head of the M.I.L. If you think the M.I.L. doesn’t see through your method, you shouldn’t be mentoring women in this fashion, nor I suspect, any other. Your model has you still at war with your M.I.L. instead of allowing your husband to grow a pair and put the BOTH of you, M.I.:. and you, the wife, back in the box where you belong.

    One might think you have a problem allowing your husband to grow a pair. Wouldn’t want you to give up a scintilla of control, would we now?

  189. Preeti says:

    My mother in law interfers in everything, she does not allow me to do anything.

    Even I cant spend 5 mins with my husband talking, or having a conversation with him before going to bed. Till 12 o’clock at night, she pulls my husband with her, so that we cant spend time with each other, as we have to wake up early in morning for our offices.So by 12 wwe both get tired and directly will go to sleep.

    She doesnt let me go out with him, neither for movies, roaming, even for walk. She says i want to fly, i havent seen restaurants, movies or roam about in my life, so i want to take advantage of my husband in doing so.

    It’s been just 7 months of our marriage, we cant even talk private. if we talk to each other or even smile at each other, she gets intolerant saying now honeymoon period should go over. She dont let my husband think about me or do anything for me, buy anything for me. she simply dont allow. Husband literally dont care about this. He loves me, but it hurts, when he cant even speak for me knowing i am right.

    She dont even allow to talk me with my parents, nor my husband talks with my parents as she stops him from doing so. She always creates a wrong impact of my parents in front of him.

    Also she talks about the marriage expenses everyday, dat she has not got anything from my parents end, even my father has given everything earned in his lifetime to me, then too she taunts me everytime about it, saying have i ever said i have not got anything from your marriage, etc..
    she has inferiority complex with my mother. she says my mother is filling my ears everything i am doing. Everytime she asks me return to them.

    I do every household work since morning, including preparation of food,cleaning, serving them, i am doing everything as per their wishes. Even after returning from office at 7:30, i didnt get a single moment of time for myself or my hubby till 12 o clock. Then too she always have a issue with me. she always have a topic to fight everyday. if everything is going fine for a week, then on weekend she bursts out.
    I cant find a solution to this. Please someone help me out.
    Sometimes she makes me feel like if I am just acting or pretending to be ill, and this really hurts me.
    She always criticises others’ actions, she is right about some things sometimes, and sometimes she just magnifies. She wants everything to happen in accordance with her desire; otherwise it is wrong, in her view.

    She interfers even in our sex life, she asks me everything. How often we do, with or without protection. What my husband says.
    When to plan for a baby etc etc…to such an extent you cant believe.

    She takes a note of everything. Me and my husband are both working, she takes both of our salaries every month and if we want money we have to ask each time, for that too she enquires where we are spending. For salary, she and my father in law says, there is no differences in terms of money in our family, and my husband spends all of his salary, so they want to save it for our future. But they dont save it, they take it for their own expenses. even my father in law is earning very good. he is a vice president with a renowned company.

    she only give money to my husband and always enquires, if he has not shared with me any of his money. Husband dont take anything into account, he says it’s ok, she’s mother.
    our family earns good, then too these problems are arising.

    If we plan for anything without her consent or without informing, she would burst out in anger. She has full control over my husband and my father in law, nothing at home works without her will or consent and my husband also cant say anything against her, even if he knows that she is wrong.

    She always lie’s. I cant bear it anymore, want to end up everything, i cant do anything. I dont remember the last time, i smiled or laughed with my whole heart.

    I am just 27, Please suggest if i am worrying for no reason. I am no more confident, lost belief in my myself, even i get sacred easily, i speak at night during sleep. for that too they blame me, like i am having these issues before marriage.
    Please someone help me out to tackle this situation.

  190. laura says:

    Do you live in his parents house? Im just wondering because if you are then when you move out a lot of this may change

  191. BradA says:


    Your husband will need to follow the Biblical admonition to leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife.

    Not much you can do until he gets a clue, unfortunately.

  192. dasheththylittleonesagainstthestones says:

    “Children, obey your parents.” Since the Bible gives no age expiration for that command, it should be understood as literally as the commands directed to husbands and wives in the previous chapter in Ephesians.

  193. Kate says:

    What utter misogynistic codswallop! I am an independent woman, and my husband and I are equals. He does not rule anybody, and I’d cut him down to size should he ever attempt to do so — as would he, by the way, should I suffer under the delusion that I am his mistress or some such idiocy. It’s not just a choice between matriarchy and patriarchy; there are other options. My mother-in-law is as manipulative as they come, but I simply outmanoeuvre her. She is an old bat with a mean streak, but I am 40+ years younger than she, a lot smarter, and I come from a long line of strong, clever women.

    Oh wait, I just realised this is some fundie Christian site. Oh God, I need to get out of here.

  194. JDG says:

    Kate if your going to come in, leave your BS, and then run off, the least you can do is bring sammiches for the guys. Otherwise your whole trip was a complete waste of time.

  195. Kate if your going to come in, leave your BS, and then run off, the least you can do is bring sammiches for the guys. Otherwise your whole trip was a complete waste of time.

    Hubby’s obviously not giving her the tingles.

  196. JDG says:

    Hubby’s obviously not giving her the tingles.

    How can he? To her he is just an equal*. Women don’t get tingles from men they don’t respect, and women don’t respect their equals.

    *Here I am misusing the term in the same manner that Kate is.

  197. @ Kate

    Thanks for the laugh. Are there any other childish myths you believe in, say, the easter bunny? Oh, and yes, God who became man, walked on water, healed the sick, died for our sins and was resurrected in 3 days as Old Testament prophesies foretold is far more plausible than any claims of yours being and independent women who is her husband’s equal.

  198. You know what’s hilarious? Kate ran a google search for “overbearing mother-in-laws” or something along the same lines, came here, only to scoff at the advice and continue her current course of action with a MIL she claims “My mother-in-law is as manipulative as they come, but I simply outmanoeuvre her.”

    Yeah, she has it totally together.

  199. Jim says:

    ” Kate says:
    December 30, 2015 at 4:59 pm”

    Cunt….take a hike.

  200. dasheththylittleonesagainstthestones says:

    “Women don’t get tingles from men they don’t respect, and women don’t respect their equals”

    It depends on her financial security. The bored trophy wife can bang the pool boy or male massage therapist because he is hot, not because he commands respect. Before coming into money, it’s a different story.

  201. Dave says:

    “Women don’t get tingles from men they don’t respect, and women don’t respect their equals”

    It depends on her financial security. The bored trophy wife can bang the pool boy or male massage therapist because he is hot, not because he commands respect. Before coming into money, it’s a different story.

    It all goes back to chastity. When a woman has tasted other [more Alpha] men before her “marriage” to the regular guy, she is already stretched (no pun intended) beyond the ordinary. And if Oliver Wendell Holmes is to be believed, “The mind, once stretched by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions.” Or, better still, a woman, whose sexual experiences have been stretched to a certain stratosphere by an Alpha, never settles down comfortably with a regular man as a regular wife. She is forever a smoking ember, and can easily be fanned into a raging fire with a whiff of air–even if blown by the minimum wage pool boy.

  202. feeriker says:

    Responding to such an obvious troll as “Kate” (probably a man[gina]; the verbiage is too obvious and juvenile for even the most feral and brainless of fembots)?

    C’mon, guys, you know better.

  203. laura says:

    @ just a regular guy
    You know what’s hilarious? Kate ran a google search for “overbearing mother-in-laws” or something along the same lines, came here, only to scoff at the advice and continue her current course of action with a MIL she claims “My mother-in-law is as manipulative as they come, but I simply outmanoeuvre her.”
    This made me laugh lol. I do agree with you though because it is how I found it when I just didn’t know what to do anymore! So reading your comment made me laugh 🙂

    You are probably one of those woman that want the world to believe you have it all together. If you found this page then chances are you have some issues to work through, and that is ok if you are woman enough to admit them and seek advice. It took a lot of work but we finally have the crazy mother-n-law situation under control. Good luck to you and I hope you find a way to put your husband on a pedestal. If not your just going to look for something “better” one day instead of working to be better for who you have. Good luck to you and your spouse


  204. Opus says:

    Kate uses the term Codswallop which is English slang as I suspect is ‘old bat’ which she also uses.

  205. ria says:

    My MIL is pathetic, monster, witch

  206. Tired Fiance says:

    This is the problem I have with my fiance. For example, he invited me to a wedding, but I’m driving. Suddenly, his mother is begging to tag along. I told him that I don’t want her to come. I have already spent my last two weekends with her. He says, so you want ME to tell her YOU don’t want her to come? NO, I want YOU to be a man and tell her that YOU don’t want her to come.

  207. Sam says:

    I don’t agree with this piece at all! Written as if it’s fact rather than opinion gives it zero credibility IMHO.

    Alternatively you could be a real man like my husband and truly come from a place of….’you are my wife, my chosen family, I will always choose you above anyone, including my mother, we’re a team end of’.

    My MIL is the one who’s missing out by being needy, draining and passive aggressive. She rarely sees us because she pushed us away with her suffocating and guilt inducing behaviour.

  208. lindsy mendoza says:

    I can’t stand my mother in law she been living with me and my husband since my son was born. That was about almost 4 years. She baby’s my son. Then buts in when i discipline my son and daughter. My daughter don’t get along with her. Right now im process of training my son to potty and he likes to drink alot. I have to limit what he drinks so he won’t wet himself but my mother in law gives in and keeps pouring him drinks when he assist. I can’t stand being at the house with her. I lock myself in my room. Im to this point i want to leave my home and take my kids. and get away from here.

  209. pearl says:

    My MIL lived with us, bad idea, while my husband fixed up her house, plumbing issues. When I could keep my mouth shut, he would go to bat for me. I was ready to throw in the towel, I was mad at my husband for not taking my side etc… I know now he was between a rock and a hard place. She had to go to the hospital and he didn’t want her back in the house, neither did I. Anyway, when I submitted my will to God and said I would take her back; she died the next day in the hospital. No kidding. It reminded me of that verse about Sarah submitting and how we are to submit too without fear. I think we women forget that God is there watching, watching our submission or not. He intervened with Sarah and Pharaoh and He intervened with us too.

  210. Our oldest child married last year and being a parent in law has been a learning experience. I recently shared some of my own thoughts about those challenges here: http://stephenmizell.com/3-challenges-of-a-parent-in-law/. Each of us have an obligation to make the family the best unit it can be. Our position of influence changes when they marry.

  211. Rosa cruz says:


  212. Vespa says:

    Good lord. If monster in law let up all would be good for everyone. Would she prefer her son lonely …, alone etc. I’m a career woman I ignore all of her negative attention …, it works. It simply just ….. Works. He’s going to spend his life with me a lovely Hard working nice lady. So monster in law… You need to resolve your own faults. And further more bugger off I’d say quietly you do not rule him. Ultimately he makes best choice for his future. Play fair Mon in law you don’t own him…, no one ever will. It’s about love not control. Did you
    Ever once feel the same in your beginning relationship with your husband. ?
    Hmmm betcha did

  213. Marilee Kennedy says:

    I have been dealing with a mettling mother in law… I am at moment of my marriage where I feel my husband doesn’t see a problem with his mother she has become a big factor in our marriage there is no privacy she has to know everything that is going on our marriage… I feel totally losed when I try to talk to my husband about his mother that she really needs to stay out of our marriage I have no support from my husband I feel as thou I married his mettling mother and she is allowed to say do as she pleases whether it upsets me or not I’m tired of my husband not standing up to his mother to stay out of our marriage we also live with the in laws to help them but this is not helping our marriage what so ever what to do I’m so frustrated with all mind games and all the criticism from her…..

  214. BillyS says:

    Why don’t you just ignore her Marilee? What is keeping you from doing that?

    Living with them does make it more likely they will want to know more about your lives. That could be considered part of the “rent” you pay.

  215. feeriker says:


    My hat is off to you for being able to even read whatever it is Marilee is trying to say. Between run-on sentences and lack of paragraphs (what is it with women and their aversion to paragraphs? I just jumped all over my mother about this very thing the other day, as her massive blocks of endless text without breaks rendered her thoughts completely incoherent), I can’t see how you made heads or tails of it.

  216. Michelle says:

    I have spent what seems a lifetime in supporting my husband and his mother and it’s pretty much come down to him financially supporting her and turning his back on his kids and me. Ever since my husband’s father passed away, (several years ago) our bills don’t get paid, unless I pay his part plus mine. He has kept this a secret for several years and things are starting to unfold, which is helping me to see what I assumed all along! He is a mama’s boy and if I would have known what I know today about mama’s boys I would not have married him! Apparently they have a much stronger alliance than he and I ever have had. My advice to women who get involved with mama’s boys is to either run like hell, or stay and put up with feeling like a 2nd class citizen.

  217. Feminist Hater says:

    I have spent what seems a lifetime in supporting my husband and his mother and it’s pretty much come down to him financially supporting her and turning his back on his kids and me. Ever since my husband’s father passed away, (several years ago) our bills don’t get paid, unless I pay his part plus mine. He has kept this a secret for several years and things are starting to unfold, which is helping me to see what I assumed all along! He is a mama’s boy and if I would have known what I know today about mama’s boys I would not have married him! Apparently they have a much stronger alliance than he and I ever have had. My advice to women who get involved with mama’s boys is to either run like hell, or stay and put up with feeling like a 2nd class citizen.

    Well yeah, my advise would be to never get married, ever.

    Ever thought that your husband taking care of his elderly mother is a good sign and not a bad? Oh shoot, you are special and need money, she needs to go away and die or something. He probably never told you because he knew your heartless spirit would demand he leave her to suffer and die.

  218. feeriker says:

    He probably never told you because he knew your heartless spirit would demand he leave her to suffer and die.

    Yeah, whenever I hear or read letters from women whining about how much attention their husbands pay to their mothers, the very first thought to enter my head is “maybe it’s because you are/have turned into such a nagging, cold, frigid, insufferable harpy that the only female affection and attention he gets anymore is from his mother (talk about reaching one’s nadir!). If I didn’t know that women were structurally incapable of it, I’d suggest that you ask yourself ‘could it be that I and my attitude and behavior are at least PART of the reason why my MiL has supplanted me in my husband’s affections?’ But I know better than to ask any woman to do such a thing (might as well ask a turtle to fly).”

    Michelle, if your husband really is a proverbial “mama’s boy,” I find it impossible to believe that you weren’t very well aware of that fact LONG BEFORE you married him. What obviously happened is that you were attracted to him enough that you were willing to put up with his mama fixation in hopes that you could “fix” him (when will people EVER learn? SHEEESH …). Now that that (predictably) hasn’t worked out, belated “buyer’s remore” is kicking in.

  219. BillyS says:


    I have had to read enough messages for some online classes that I teach that I have developed some skill in pulling out the key point. I fail at times, but that is a very necessary skill to survive in that environment.


    You are giving a very mixed message. Why do you have “his money” and “my money”? That is not a sustainable picture.

    Feeriker correctly notes that you certainly knew what kind of man he was when you married him. Taking care of family is something that should be an obvious action today. Too many facts are unknown in your situation, but living with relatives brings some outside issues that you will need to adapt to.

    What result do you really want? Should we bless your leaving him? Give you the magic words to get him to behave as you wish? Something else?

    None of that is likely to happen. He may have flaws, but you picked him and you are stuck with that choice. Start figuring out ways to make it succeed if you want to have an enjoyable life.

  220. Jennifer shultz says:

    I have a LIVE IN mother inlaw.. my husband sees the problems she causes but he and I are totally different.. he’ is layed bk and tells her how he feels yet she never listens.. he’s 45 I’m 34 she lives with us she didn’t raise him and yet she treats us as if we we we’re 16 or 17.. me on one hand can take a lot of bs but when I’ve had enough I blowup and I feel like I’m going insane.. any advice would be fantastic

  221. Veronica says:

    My husband’s parents and I got along quite well before we got married. We got married a few years ago and from the time we got married everything changed to the point that we don’t talk anymore. My husband and I have 2 kids and he talks to them most of the time, laughing on the phone and talking for ages. I don’t know how to feel anymore. They don’t talk to me or have interest in our kids. What should I do?

  222. Nazmun Nahar says:

    Could u give some idea about how can i encourage my husband?

  223. Tayanita Hodges says:

    Doesn’t matter what is done, my mother-in-law is psychotic. I’m not even name calling here, she literally is but doesn’t see error in her ways. She makes up situations and genuinely believes them to be true when everyone else knows the truth. She has attacked me out of the blue and called me an abusive bitch for saying that he had to work and sleeps most of the day. She claims I made him forget her, which isn’t true. He just doesn’t want to be around her because she always starts something over something really small, or non existent. Like, on our wedding day- she told his younger siblings he hated them because the youngest wasn’t the flower girl (I didn’t have a flower girl and decided early on not to have one, my bridesmaids tossed petals as they walked) she also told them he hated them because he was only paying attention to me on our wedding day. She also very rudely complained that my father saved a seat for my mother who is in heaven, she quite quickly said “but she’s DEAD, why save her a fucking seat?” Mind you, my mother died May 2015, I was married June 2016. She also complained that we dedicated a dance to my mother but my husband chose not to have a dance dedicated to HIS mother because he didn’t even know if she’d be there because she disrespectfully claimed the week before that she refused to attend her own son’s wedding if she didn’t have a date to bring to it. I could go on and on, but I won’t. I’m just saying…if the mother is abusive the way she ALWAYS has been. Best case is to avoid the woman at all costs. I just hate that his siblings are in the middle of it and constantly poisoned with ideas she puts in their heads.

  224. Danny says:

    When a man gets married his mother is downsized and the new leading lady is the wife. The mother in law only outranks the wife if the husband is a p*ssy and is not truly in love with his wife. Once a man gets married his loyalty shifts to the new family he is creating.

    The guy that wrote this article is clueless.

  225. riya says:

    Hi my in law also behavws rudely as if we dont exists…she is very controlling nd she alwaus tels other people are bad who dnt listen her views… I hve small baby bt she try to implicate as if I cnt tc of my baby. .she nvr listen to othr views…shouts for no reason….bt behaves camly with her own daughter n son in law……I cannnot stay eith her for a day ss I fee its likestsying for yrs

  226. laura says:

    I posted on here a while back about my mother n law problems. I made a change instead of getting my husband to fix his mother, I decided to kill with kindness. It worked for a while and it was nice for a little bit. However my husband and I had other problems and she told him to just leave and come stay with her…so he did. I went to meet him so he could see our daughter for the weekend and instead a woman was there to serve me divorce papers and to top it off his mother was there with a smile on her face. Even though he is the one that left and was having an affair, she couldn’t wait to see it first hand! From all my experience with my insane MIL issues the only thing that worked was killing with kindness. It is hard but it works. I’ve tried everything else and it was the only thing that helped show her true intentions and motives. Just try it and not just one time, every time. When the husband isnt around make it awkward with extra smiling ect. You will see results!

  227. Kavitha says:

    This dnt work I have done that before,but instead of listening my husband calm in fact I can say controls me saying this,my MIL is a nightmare for me,she want only that I fighy with him

  228. tjoyc2002 says:

    To All The Hecklers:

    May you have no husband and no sons. It would be abusive place to live for any man in your homes. Imagine, your very genetic hardwiring being labeled as wrong, and trying to beat it out of them with bullying… Shame on you.

    What the author writes is indeed accurate. I’ve lived it. Often the sons of controlling mothers become emasculated. Imagine your mother in laws shock and horror when her son is encouraged to love his wife, and protect her, and he confronts his mother’s bad behavior, not as a weak boy, but a man of authority.

    As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

    Which do you want your husbands and sons to think they are? Scum of the earth, or a man with value, worth, and strength? If you believe the former, stay away from my precious little boy.

  229. Heidi Young says:

    I’m in a defacto relationship and I have been nothing but nice, kind & caring towards my mil. As she’s been nothing except controlling, bitchy and not nice to me in the 2mths we’ve been in her backyard living. Please help?.

  230. Bonnie says:

    My husband is the patriarch, but when visiting with his parents, he turns into a distracted child that sees no evil, hears no evil when my in laws strike at me. In this case, it doesn’t matter if he is or isn’t the patriarch. I am at my in laws mercy.

  231. Boxer says:

    Dear Bonnie:

    My husband is the patriarch, but when visiting with his parents, he turns into a distracted child that sees no evil, hears no evil when my in laws strike at me. In this case, it doesn’t matter if he is or isn’t the patriarch. I am at my in laws mercy.

    Have you ever read Che Guevara’s Guerrilla Warfare? Have you ever studied go?
    I find such things valuable in social situations.

    While your mother-in-law is attacking you, she’s making herself vulnerable on several fronts. Most obviously, she’s making herself look like a cunt. This is your cue to advance on your husband, not by descending to mother-in-law’s level, but by looking as submissive and as sweet to your husband as possible. The contrast will be highlighted in his mind. Whose side do you think he’s likely to take in any future conflict? His sweet and submissive wife’s, or his old bitch of a mom’s?

    (Side note, if she’s treating you poorly now, you can be sure she treated him poorly growing up. Men have memories.)

    I predict that if you do this, your mother in law will sense what you’re doing, and shut the fuck up on her own accord. If not, it doesn’t matter. You will win in the long run.



  232. earlthomas786 says:

    Whose side do you think he’s likely to take in any future conflict? His sweet and submissive wife’s, or his old bitch of a mom’s?

    It’s a brilliant stategy that most likely takes a good level of ‘being woke’ if a woman does this. Oftentimes they’ll take the side of the destructive female rather than being submissive to their husband.

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