In Search of the Peter Pan Manboy.

I was curious if the mythical Peter Pan Manboy we hear so much carping about lately was visible in the data, and since those making the claim are generally elusive on the stats I’ve pulled my own.  The data set I chose is the same data set I used to evaluate ever married rates, the US Census Current Population Survey including the Annual Social and Economic (ASEC) Supplement.  This data set excludes the homeless, those who are institutionalized, and those who are overseas.  Note that the figures reported are earnings, not income.  For more technical details, see this.

Since the Peter Pan Manboy is by definition unmarried and young, lets look at unmarried men and women in their early 20s.  Focusing on unmarrieds allows us to exclude housewives from the data when comparing men and women.

allunmarriedpercent20

If we were only looking at men it might look like we had just found what we are looking for.  30% of unmarried men in this demographic earned no income in the previous year, and 67% of them earned less than $15k.  However, the myth says that these are men who are slacking off while their female peers have their acts together.  The women in this category look even worse:  31% of them had no earnings the previous year, and 74% of them earned under 15k!

Don’t be discouraged though, we may still find our mythical manboys.  Women tend to marry earlier than men, and as a result there are fewer unmarried women in this age group than men (9,211 vs 10,014).  Perhaps the issue isn’t regarding the percentages but overall numbers:

allunmarried20

While there are slightly more men than women in the zero earnings group, this can’t be what all of the fuss is about, especially if you look at the other two categories under $15k.

Don’t give up yet.  Maybe we are looking too young.  Women are more likely than men to go to college, so maybe looking at early 20s is too young.  Certainly girlpower and moxie must be in full swing by the time we look at unmarried men and women in their late 20s:

allunmarriedpercent25

It isn’t there either.  Perhaps again this is an issue of raw numbers vs percentages:

allunmarried25

Again, the raw numbers aren’t impressive for the late twenties either.  But perhaps we need to go yet a bit older:

allunmarriedpercent30

This is even worse for women, as are the raw numbers:

allunmarried30

One thing which is worth noting is that looking at unmarrieds tends to bias this search against men, because low and non earning men are the least desirable marriage prospects.  Additionally, men tend to earn more money after marrying than unmarried men with the same level of education and experience do.  If we looked at married men and women or simply all men and women, this would make men look better relative to women so it wouldn’t help in our search.

But perhaps this is an issue about race.  The writers complaining about the Peter Pan Manboys tend to be white;  could this phenomenon be something specific to white men?  Nope.  It isn’t there either:

whiteunmarriedpercent20

whiteunmarried20

whiteunmarriedpercent25

whiteunmarried25

whiteunmarriedpercent30whiteunmarried30

In looking at this I ended up making a much larger number of charts than I have included in this post.  I’ve created separate pages including these charts for White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, and All Races.  Feel free to check them out and make sure I didn’t leave something important out.

While I didn’t find confirmation of the myth, I am astounded at the number of unmarried men and women who earn either nothing or extremely small amounts.  Certainly part of this is due to the poor economy.  However, I have to wonder if we aren’t seeing men no longer perceiving heading a family as an incentive to work harder, and therefore the real complaint is that single men have started working more like single women.

Either way, there is a serious issue with too many takers and too few makers.  Perhaps most striking is the number of unmarried White men and women in their 40s who earn nothing:

whiteunmarried40

whiteunmarried45

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168 Responses to In Search of the Peter Pan Manboy.

  1. M3 says:

    Self admitted Peter Pan here.

    Women never gave me any incentive to leave Never Never Land. :D

    Well, not true. I tried once. And luckily got out with the skin of my balls intact and wasn’t taken to the cleaners. Not really aching to get back into the marriage bit any time soon..

    .. and by any time soon i mean never. Just in case anyone was confused.

  2. ….Its been awhile since any new information, thoughts, ideas, or data seriously disturbed me in the Manosphere. Yet I had no clue so many people were in the ‘taker’ category, no wonder our economy is tanking. I’m glad men aren’t being whiny bitches about peter pan girls at least.

    Seems like factual proof though, that it’s not really a complaint by women about men not growing up or maturing; that women themselves are now the more mature and grown up of the two sexes. Rather the data supports that they’re equal. So it must be that women are simply whining and complaining that when men get the treatment they do in today’s society, that they used their maturity, money, and career to find their own satisfaction without women than deal with all the issues surrounding the ‘fairer’ sex.

    Generational theme song: 99 Problems by Jay Z

  3. David J. says:

    It’s wage discrimination, dontcha know. The men are still lazier, but they’re getting paid more for it.

  4. TFH says:

    However, I have to wonder if we aren’t seeing men no longer perceiving heading a family as an incentive to work harder, and therefore the real complaint is that single men have started working more like single women.

    That is it right there.

    If alimony/CS put many men at a risk of a 70% effective tax rate, then why should they work to get into that situation. Once you get a CS order, your income gets imputed, you know. That means you cannot opt to work less and pay less. You go to jail if you cannot pay an amount that was indexed to your 70-hours-a-week earnings. The law that made this possible is the Bradley Amendment.

  5. “However, I have to wonder if we aren’t seeing men no longer perceiving heading a family as an incentive to work harder, and therefore the real complaint is that single men have started working more like single women.”

    I think the rot is seeping into the bones now. Vilify someone no matter what they do for long enough and they will stop trying. I know I have. As the good Captain would say, Enjoy the Decline!

  6. M3 says:

    :However, I have to wonder if we aren’t seeing men no longer perceiving heading a family as an incentive to work harder, and therefore the real complaint is that single men have started working more like single women.:

    I have to concur on this insomuch as it is exactly where my journey starts. As i suffered a quantifiable loneliness throughout my 20′s, feeling like i was going to be left out of the mating game and marriage sweepstakes, i put ZERO effort into manufacturing the preconditions neccessary for the tradcon route of masculine pathood (career, aspiration, wealth, big house, picket fence, car, ability to provide, prepare for children).. because there was no wife on the horizon.

    When i finally did wife up my ‘soulmate’ at 33, (even tho she was not a slut) trying to play catch up at this point was too late. Even tho i tried my hardest and helped us weather 3 unemployments on her part, once i got the axe.. it was the end of the road. And because i was not willing to entertain children during times of financial strife, that was the final nail in our marriage’s coffin.

    Had she not spent her years pursuing a useless education at a prestigious university that put her into mega debt (which i paid off btw) and hooked up with me rather than the 4 prior BF’s (longterm but always never taking it to marriage) i might have had a lot more incentive to leave Never Never Land earlier and prepare.

    With the loss of my marriage and my eyes open to a world of inequalities regarding the justice system through nofault cash n prizes lotto..

    you’re damn right i’m staying with the Kid in Green tights and the little pixie dust throwing blonde.

  7. deti says:

    If there were a “Peter Pan Manboy” epidemic. one would expect to see a greater differential between earnings of men and earnings of women in the same age groups.

    But it isn’t there. The earnings differences between men and women in the same age groups are not statistically significant. The rough pay equality continues for men and women into middle age and after at least 15 years in the work force.

    This is further evidence disproving the claim that women aren’t paid equally for the same work.

  8. TFH says:

    Note that conservatives measure a man’s worth only on whether his life exists to be a provider for women, or not :

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/08/05/conservative-responses-to-ny-times-happy-bachelors-article/

    It is already pathetic when a woman whines that ‘men won’t commit’ despite women being the ones far less capable of committing to a degree that marriage requires.

    But even MORE pathetic is when a mangina like Rod Dreher whines that men are ‘not committing to women’. How much of a mangina does one have to be to whine about something like that?

  9. deti says:

    My experience is the opposite of M3. Not being particularly good looking or alpha, it was made quite clear to me coming out of high school in the mid 1980s and college in the late 1980s that the way such non-alpha men got girlfriends and wives was to increase their value through education leading to earning power leading to status. I was also told the converse: The quality of woman I could attract without education and money would be considerably lower than if I went to college and earned degree(s) and then got a good job earning a good salary on which I could support a wife.

    It was also the case that most of us then were brought up with the idea that the only acceptable venue for sex was marriage. So, no education, no money. No money, no status. No status, no woman, no marriage, and therefore no sex. Not ever. If you are having sex outside marriage, went the story, you are a bad bad man taking advantage of innocent girls living away from home for the first time, and you will be punished and you should feel really really guilty.

  10. Mark Minter says:

    Once I had posted this long analysis of Puer Aeternus on this blog. I found some of it in a wordpad file but it just too long to bore someone to death with a re-post.

    But the jest of the post was Puer Aeturnus was a small afterthought of consideration to Jung, the originator of the idea. But then a female protege of Jung picked up on it years later, I mean many years later. She promoted it to one of Jungs “Archetypes”, the core types that all societies contained, Mother, Hero, Child, etc. Jung had just given Puer a mere mention as a special case of the Child Archetype. The classic statement from her paper “The Problem of Puer Aeternus” was

    “In general, the man who is identified with the archetype of the pueraeternus remains too long in adolescent psychology; that is, allthose characteristics that are normal in a youth of seventeen oreighteen are continued into later life, coupled in most cases withtoo great a dependence on the mother.

    The two typical disturbances ofa man who has an outstanding mother complex are, as Jung points out,homosexuality and Don Juanism. ”

    And then anything else written on the subject was based on this paper. And often written by women or some Mangina character selling books to women.

    What I gathered from reading what I could find and some of this Jung’s work in which Archetypes are defined, is that Jung was basically a new age quack selling chick crack to people at a time when ouija boards and seances were the rage. In no way is Peter Pan syndrome on the list of accepted psychological clinical mental illnesses or even consider serious by modern psychiatrists.

    When I reviewed women’s writings on the subject, it seemed that what happened was those women got “alpha”ed. The readings had alpha written all over them. It’s like the classic pump and dump.

    And any reader of Red Pill blogs can attest that a lot of alphas are a long from being good men. In fact, being alpha in Red Pill terms can actually retard masculine growth in professional development. I would think the short guy in the corner office with the Napoleon complex is a little more motivated to get ahead in the world than the tall blued eyed surfer dude who can lean against the bar for a few minutes and women come up to him and ask, “Are you from Sweden or something?”

    I was reading the Baumeister paper on “Sexual Economics, Culture, Men, and Modern Sexual Trends”. ( I’ll put the link in here. It’s interesting reading and not too long.
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/vg7322727mgl1875/fulltext.html?MUD=MP#CR10

    In it the author states that sex is the main compulsion that causes men to be somebody. And if they can get sex without having to be somebody, then they won’t. Actually, he says they will do what is necessary to get sex. And not much more. When women controlled sexual access and it was in their benefit to force commitment and marriage, then men set about becoming marketable as husbands. Now that they don’t have to do that for sexual access, then expect a drop off in male productivity.

    This data seems to refute that claim. But not entirely.

    But it would seem that an alpha that can get sex will not necessarily be driven to change his behavior. So maybe the category you carelessly left out of your data analysis was “Red Pill defined Alpha Male earnings by Age Group vs Female Earnings by Age Group”.

    But that was gathered from the writings about Peter Pan, that the woman picked some alpha dude and either got pumped and dumped her or those wishful feminine ideas that “I can fix him” when they encountered that attractive man didn’t work out to meet her plans and hypergamic requirements. Or the dude had options and took them, and those options didn’t include her.

    So the Hamster gets to running very fast and out spits…….

    Peter Pan.

    So really all the Peter Pan talk today given your data is just another version of “Where is he?” or “All of the good men are taken” which can be interpreted as “I can’t really see all those beta males that are earning up to an expected level of what a suitable husband should earn because no ‘Fabulous and Classy” single girl wants a beta so they are invisible to me. Where are all of the hunky handyman millionaires that my hypergamic nature requires to sate my ridiculous inflated selectivity requirement?”.

    And since those men that do fit that description of HHM have options galore and then when he won’t man up

    And the Hamster again gets to running very fast and out spits…..

    Peter Pan.

    Thanks for the data. Your contribution is always invaluable. Data doesn’t lie.

    I find two things that stubbornly misogynistic, math and truth.

  11. FuriousFerret says:

    “I’m glad men aren’t being whiny bitches about peter pan girls at least.”

    Because once a woman goes past her expiration date, she’s worthless to society at large. Who cares about old spinsters that can’t get married? Meet the female beta/omega.

    It’s a inverse relationship for the sexes. Most young women are alpha/greater beta simly because they are young and suitable attractive for sex even if they are overweight or chubby, while if you’re a young guy, your ass better be an alpha or at the very minimum a greater beta. All other greek letters need not apply.

    Now when the 30 year old mark comes, the roles are reversed. If you are a 30+ man that has a decent job and decent shape, you’re going to desirable at least for LTR. However if you are 30+ woman your ass better be watching every single calorie and hitting the gym. You have a be an alpha/greate beta female in physical appearance to have a shot with men.

    Long story short, who gives a fuck about peter pan women thus no whining about them.

  12. MPK says:

    I guess I must have been one of those Peter Pan man-boys when I was younger. When I was a young single guy, in my late teens and then early, mid-, and late 20′s, my dad was constantly spewing lines to me and my younger brother about becoming a man of “RESPONSIBILITY”. I couldn’t figure out why I would want to do that. He certianly offerred us no persuasive logic or evidence why we should want that. All I saw was my dad working his life away to help the family survive. My mother worked as well. I couldn’t understand why I would want to live that kind of life. ‘Turns out I was right to question it. My dad was an impressively poor entrepreneur, but he was dedicated to making it on his own. He could have easily taken a job with a good company and had a much better life, but didn’t, so that he could “be his own boss”. All I saw him being was obstinate, prideful, and worn-out. He and my mother did make sure I had the chance to get a great education at a world-class university in Houston. So I took a job at an excellent company in Fort Worth and have been there ever since, 35 years now. Occasionally I have had to work a few Saturdays, or stay late to make sure we met our deadlines. But it never had to be the way my dad portrayed it to his two sons. Because of that mental portrait I had, I waited until I was 35 years old to marry. I found a very nice genuinely Christian woman and we have two great kids. I could have done it much earlier if I hadn’t that bad flavor from my dad’s poor choices. In reviewing the data on man-boys, I am also struck by my own observations of young people now, who routinely make poor choices of majors in college, if they attend at all. They seem to expect to be paid major bucks to do stuff that is either “fun” or “socially responsible”. There’s nothing wrong with social responsibility, but the labor market is kind of flush with young kids who want do to “socially responsible” jobs. ‘Kind of skews the salary offers for those jobs. They ought to be looking at genuinely hard stuff that is or will be in demand when they graduate. I did that and ended up as an electrical engineer. It wasn’t easy and I missed out on a lot of fun during my college years. But at least I have most week ends off, and my house has been paid for since 1990! Oh, and I got a letter from my company HR dept a few days ago explaining that for highly compensated employees – like me – they have to limit what I can contribute to my 401K. I am “highly compensated” I guess. Feels good to me!

  13. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    To touch on what TFH posted, I have (effectively) a 55% tax rate, after taxes and child support.

    I have seven nephews, six of which are over 18. It is not “Peter Pan,” it’s survival. They don’t avoid marriage because of the commiment. They avoid it because of the lack of commitment.

    55% tax rate. Would be higher, but she makes good money.

  14. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I’m thinking the pile of folks earning nothing is due to the increasing welfare takings. Why bust your hump to earn < $15k when you can dance for government cheese and come out ahead monetarily? And if you don't start working at the bottom of the heap, you can't climb up the earnings ladder as time goes on.

    Sure, bad economy is a contributing factor, but if you have a choice of taking a crap job to tide you over, or sitting on your ass sucking up tax money, that doesn't do wonders for your incentive to find 'scrapping-by' work, does it?

  15. MPK says:

    In response to TFH, with this quote:
    “It is already pathetic when a woman whines that ‘men won’t commit’ despite women being the ones far less capable of committing to a degree that marriage requires.”
    This reminds me a a particularly annoying school teacher in my singles Sunday School class after I graduated from college and got my first job. This gal, from Iowa, would have rivaled many of those Iowa grain fed steers for the livestock champion award. But I digress. She had a particularly loud and frequent habit of proclaiming how men wouldn’t make a committment. It seems her daddy had left her family when she was younger. I guess she was still hurting from it, even though her sisters and mom were recovered. She even made it a point to remind me of that lack of committmenet, right after I committed on a home loan. I never told her this, although there were many many times I wanted to: “A guy will eagerly make a committment to something he is convinced is of genuine value to him.” Unfortunately it took me a looonnngg time to find such a woman.

  16. Critical Eye says:

    Dalrock – do the income numbers include government assistance, especially unemployment? What about off-the-books earnings? My quick reading of the abstract didn’t make it clear. I know a few man-boys working roofing or construction, competing with illegals for day labor, and getting by on a few hundred dollars a week.

    [D: Government assistance wouldn't be included. Under the table earnings would be up to the person responding. If they don't disclose it then it wouldn't be counted, but the Census promises not to share individual income answers.]

  17. Mark Minter says:

    I thought about this for a second more. And Professor Dalrock I have some questions.

    My first stop in Red Pill world was Dalrock. (So if any Red Pill blog reader finds my comments tedious it is your fault)

    I had searched for “Marriage Strike” with this “We’ll show those witches who is who. That’s right, we just won’t marry them. Ha”

    And Google returns, in it’s ever infinite wisdom of what I should learn, The Myth of the Marriage Strike.

    And I thought “Aw shucks. Guess we are not showing anybody anything.”

    The fount of data that is Dalrock said “Nope. It’s the women that aren’t getting married. You slobs are not properly preparing yourself for marriage and the women all want to ride all the rides in the Amusement park. When the woman wants to marry, she slaps around some man, gives him a Whiff of Jiff and then, presto, Marriage. And this goes on in the nodes of her Female Matrix. When one woman in the node gets married then the rest follow the leader.”

    So now, since your data says The Man actually have capacity to marry, at least financially, …

    Then what’s up?

    Are the men striking? Are the women eschewing marriage? Where’s the “Man up” crap coming from?

    Why then, is nobody marrying?

    Is it possible this is Blue City phenomenon? That the earnings data you show gets balanced out of a nationwide basis, but in the major cities, there is still a disparity where all those Fabulous and Classy single girls earn big bucks more than those video playing Puers?

    Or is like the attitude that Japanese Herbivores have “The women only want men that earn twice as much as them” So even if the earnings are close together as your graphs, the hypergamy of American women think “Loser!”.

    There was famous line from Seinfeld. He is getting dumped by some woman that had been a nuisance for episodes and when he finally likes her, she dumps him.

    She says “I just go with a man if I don’t respect what he does.”

    Jerry whines “You work at a fotomat”.

    But anyway, what is your take on this data vis a vis The Big Picture According to Dalrock.

  18. deti says:

    Some of those men and women in the 20-24 age group with no earnings are in college or grad school.

  19. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    @deti –
    True, but there’s a pile of non-earners in every age bracket, gender, and racial grouping. That can’t be a healthy thing, and the fact that it’s so much higher than the next couple of wage brackets indicates to me that folks are deciding to make no money, rather than make little money.

  20. deti says:

    Mark Minter:

    “Are the men striking?”

    Yes and no. Some men cannot marry because they are invisible or unattractive to all but the most unattractive women. A growing number of men don’t want to marry, or were married once and will never marry again.

    “Are the women eschewing marriage?”

    Not so much eschewing marriage; rather, they’re delaying it as long as they possibly can. Many women delay marriage until they approach or hit The Wall. Why? Because they don’t NEED to get married in order to have fun lives, date men, or have sex. They live with mom and dad or with roommates, working shitty jobs and partying all weekend; or they have decent enough cubicle jobs that they can live in their own places.

    “Where’s the “Man up” crap coming from?”

    From women who are screaming towards or have hit The Wall. They are between the ages of 27 and 40, they want to get married now NOW NOW, they can feel their eggs shriveling with every passing day, and they honestly cannot figure out why Channing Tatum or Bradley Cooper or F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer or Alpha McGorgeous or Harley McBadboy are not beating down their doors on bended knee with rings and proposals.

    “Why then, is nobody marrying?”

    The men can’t because they’re so unattractive as to be invisible and undesirable. .

    Or they don’t want to because they either:
    1. Are drowning in p*ssy already and don’t need to, or
    2. They know marriage is a bad deal all around, or
    3. Were married before and got burned.

    The women can’t because they have hit The Wall and wasted their best years on the carousel or career.

    Or they don’t need to because their lives are already “fulfilling” with fun and friends and parties and Louis Vuitton handbags and Facebook pages and alpha f**ks. They don’t need beta bucks.

    Yet.

  21. Retrenched says:

    I think there’s four main reasons why marriage in the west is declining:

    1. A lot of women don’t want to get married when they are at the peak of their attractiveness and marriageability (18-23 or so). They’re either A. riding the carousel or B. focusing on their education and careers first, or perhaps a bit of both.

    2. A lot of men who have status, good looks, and/or seduction skills have figured out that they can sate their sexual appetites through hookups, fuckbuddies, FWBs and casual flings, and that they don’t need marriage to get laid.

    3. A lot of men of all sex ranks realize what a rotten deal marriage 2.0 is for men. They’ve grown up and seen their fathers, uncles, and older brothers and friends go through divorce and the family court meat grinder and they don’t want this to happen to them. They’ve decided the best way to prevent it is to avoid the number one risk factor – which is, of course, getting married in the first place.

    4. Even men and women who are seriously interested in marriage have to deal with the reality* that women’s economic empowerment and their innate hypergamy are in conflict. To put it another way, a successful high income career girl will have trouble finding a man of higher status that she can find sufficiently attractive for a long-term relationship or marriage. And many of the men who might qualify for her affections might have the status and “alpha cred” to marry younger and more attractive women when they decide to settle down.

    *- Dealing with reality isn’t necessarily the same as understanding or acknowledging it. The fact that some men and women may not understand or acknowledge the effect of female hypergamy on women’s choices and preferences doesn’t make it any less real.

  22. A♠ says:

    Leap,

    I far prefer this version:

  23. me says:

    @Deti
    Why are they not beating down their doors on bended knee with rings and proposals??
    5 mintutes of alpha while travelling “findinggggggggg myyyyssseeellllfffff”

  24. beta_plus says:

    Manhattan & Brooklyn Trust Funder Alphas != all men in America

  25. Opus says:

    I think Deti nails it! Well done.

    I am particularily struck in the charts by the parity in all of them and at whatever salary level as between men and women – no wonder men are so unattractive as to be invisible, as women complain (as they career towards that painted wall – like my favourite cartoon character wiley e coyote) that there are no decent men. Only as recently as last Friday evening I was getting the sulks from one of their brigade for my complete lack of interest as she passed ridiculously close to my table, on the way to The Ladies – but I am not taking the bait, for I would firstly surely have to experience a tirade of abuse – even desparate women are like that – no I have bigger fish to fry, and am biding my time. This was the one who previously attempted to remind me of how desirable she was at seventeen and at that age had men licking the floor when she graced their presence. How pleasant for her. She may be good looking for her age still but I am not fooled by her ciaroscuro; all I see is wall.

  26. deti says:

    Retrenched:

    Yep. Add to that:

    5. IN the days of Marriage 1.0 a young woman needed to get married or she probably would be an impoverished spinster, forever dependent on a brother or uncle or inlaws. If she weren’t married by 30 she would never marry.

    Today, women have complete economic independence. A woman simply doesn’t need to get married for economic security. This has two additional effects:

    a. It lessens her attractiveness to men who earn less than she does or who have less education than she does.

    b. Her job most likely puts her into daily contact with higher status men. This fuels her hypergamous nature. The repetitive nature of the contact can produce attraction, which can jeopardize an existing relationship or stunt attraction to men who are actually available to her.

    6. More and more women are delaying marriage for so long that they finally make it to age 30-35 and find they’ve priced themselves out of the market. They can’t get married now because the attractive men they want won’t marry them; and they aren’t attracted to the men who are interested in them.

  27. 8oxer says:

    @UnicornHunter

    Jeez, what a terrible story!

    Imagine this scenario: After 11 years of marriage, you and your spouse call it quits and you move out of the house. After you leave, a letter from your former employer is delivered to the house that your ex now resides in. Your ex opens it and discovers there’s a new procedure in place to access your retirement funds online. After following the procedures, your ex drains the account in four months…
    http://www.bankrate.com/financing/retirement/woman-drains-exs-retirement-account/

    While I have a job and I enjoy some amount of material success, it’s more of a game for me than a lifestyle. I support North America’s “grasseaters” and sympathize with those who refuse to pay into a rigged system.

    Men are thoroughly despised and ridiculed at every opportunity in the popular media and folkways. Why should men not simply *drop out* in context?

    Quit paying taxes, refuse to fight the endless series of wars, and enjoy your lives, brothers. Let the powers that be and their female minions squeal themselves blue, and never apologize for acting in your own best interests.

  28. an observer says:

    “… Single men have started working more like single women…”

    Like this?
    * liberal arts degree
    * several maxxed out credit cards
    * expensive apartment, car repayments
    * calling in sick on Fridays and Mondays
    * corporate busywork job in HR/media
    * few responsibilities

  29. UnicornHunter says:

    @Mark Minter, thanks for the link.

    I was reading the Baumeister paper on “Sexual Economics, Culture, Men, and Modern Sexual Trends”. ( I’ll put the link in here. It’s interesting reading and not too long.
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/vg7322727mgl1875/fulltext.html?MUD=MP#CR10

    A very interesting read.

  30. KNZ says:

    Mark Minter: I find two things that stubbornly misogynistic, math and truth.
    so true, so true

  31. FuriousFerret says:

    ““… Single men have started working more like single women…”

    Like this?
    * liberal arts degree
    * several maxxed out credit cards
    * expensive apartment, car repayments
    * calling in sick on Fridays and Mondays
    * corporate busywork job in HR/media
    * few responsibilities

    Nah, more like this:

    * xbox and HD Porn
    * moar xbox and HD Porn
    * Job at Best Buy
    * live with three buddies (need someone to play halo with)
    * 10 year old beat up POS car

  32. an observer says:

    “… education leading to earning power leading to status…”

    I was told this lie too. It is a broken pathway.

    “Men are thoroughly despised and ridiculed at every opportunity in the popular media and folkways. Why should men not simply *drop out* in context…”

    Well put. Withdraw consent to the thieving, wealth redistributionist, feminist matriarchy.

  33. deti says:

    Education leading to earning power leading to status is a fine way to live one’s life. Because getting your education with a modicum of ambition can get you a good job that pays well and helps you lead a decent life, so long as he understands how women see this.

    The severe error, and what the Marriage 1.0 generation didn’t understand, is that all this doesn’t make a man attractive. Instead it turns him into a utility, a tool, a draft horse, for her to use and appropriate to her own purposes. SInce he is getting a little sex and attention from a woman, he believes she is really attracted to him. What is happening in fact is that she is doing her best to secure commitment from a provider. If she needs to put out to get that commitment, she’ll do it. She doesn’t really even understand herself that that is what she is doing. She simply knows that she wants/needs a man who will feed, clothe and shelter her and her babies.

  34. an observer says:

    Ff,

    Cubicle man’s version can work like this:
    * meaningless, paper shuffling job
    * debt free life, cheap car
    * inexpensive, enjoyable hobbies
    * small group of close friends
    * christian beliefs outlived in nonchurchian environment
    * interesting, enjoyable second job in niche industry
    * primal lifestyle

    All whilat being poolside for the great decline.

  35. an observer says:

    Deti,

    The dream is alive in some industries. Those industries will be safe until the laws are changed to encourage equal access. Its happened time after time: where the law intervenes to ‘fix inequity’, the subsequent entry of women accompanies the downturn of that industry. Conclusion: women and their beta white knights ruin everything.

    I briefly dated a girl with no qualms about quitting an unsatisfying job. I put it to her: what if the guy wants to do that, too?

    * crickets *

    Mens value as simple utilities, draught horses for plowing financial security really bothers me. In retrospect, most of the girls i dated just saw guys as a means to get stuff. Then dump him when the tingles disappear, she tires of him, or for married women, when the kiddies are weaned.

    For men there is no shame in abandoning a sinking ship. Unfortunately, civilisation needs men to sustain it. And whilst i am no believer in eotwawki, i am concerned that western living standards are going to suffer in the greater depression.

  36. TMG says:

    Given all the caterwauling we hear about “no good men left” I should have a giant target on my back. I’m in my mid-30′s, I make north of 60K, I’m smart, I’m tall, I’m funny, I’m not a pushover, I’m not bad looking, and I dress well. But most women my own age or younger generally treat me as a second-rate zoo animal exhibit they look at on the way to the tigers. That’s fine by me as I’m going my own way.

    I really think women’s expectations are stratospheric right now, and it will be interesting to see how all this shakes out.

  37. 22to28 says:

    “I have seven nephews, six of which are over 18. It is not “Peter Pan,” it’s survival. They don’t avoid marriage because of the commitment. They avoid it because of the lack of commitment.”

    I love this. I can relate, as a 26 yr old unmarried male. We’re not afraid of marriage, we are afraid of the women. They are TOO strong and independent for us!

  38. I see the peter pan accusations as a synthesis of hypergamy and the apex fallacy, combined with the tendency of these trend pieces to be about urban young professional types.

    Women only really see and consider the men they’re attracted to.

    Given current educational and corporate trends, the mid-late 20′s Marketing/HR woman doesn’t see many men that are both in her age range and her economic superior – if she did, there’d be a discrimination suit against the boss instead of budding love. Further, most of her economic equals at the office are your average did-everything-right nice guy betas. So the pool of men she’s attracted to is based on non-economic hypergamy triggers – looks, social dominance, etc. – which may be more prevalent in men living lower-velocity lives or in non-standard careers.

    So she tends to be attracted to “losers” and because of that, she imagines that all men must be losers.

  39. M3 says:

    @ Deti
    Thanks for the comp but I was an ugly unattractive mess in high school. I didn’t follow the path of acquire money to land a woman as I was also taught because I found that view insulting. After all, feminism taught me I should look at inner qualities in a woman, her smarts and personality. I made it a principled point that I wanted to be with a girl who liked me for me, not my money or big muscles (so I did not pursue to my downfall).

    The reality is we’ve long since past the point where the fish tells the bike to eff off. As many have said, women have done such a thorough job making sure they don’t require men and don’t value commitment, that once they hit the wall and all of a sudden wail about commitment, its not because they value it, its under duress. And its at that point the shiney bike tells the belly up fish to go eff itself.

  40. M3, that’s a good inversion of their analogy. Bikes last forever with basic maintenance, while fish can’t help but rot.

  41. Norm says:

    In Marxist Sweden, a 37 year old woman was charged with having sex with a skeleton. These over 30 year+ must be desperate for male companionship.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236434/Photos-taken-Swedish-woman-accused-having-sex-skeletons-skull-bed.html

  42. Chris says:

    If you are invisible, you are invisible… as a 52 y.o. who goes to the gym, is tall, pulls down a good salary and has a paid off car and house… totally invisible @ church. Most of the divorced women, however, there are psychological and financial wrecks and … I would not let them into my boys life.

    When you are raising the kids post divorce, the first thing you have to ask yourself is if this relationship will damage the kids.

    Because the kids would not handle another divorce. The default position, thus, is not to date, and not to marry. A woman would have to convince me that they are loyal — personally — and that they will improve the lives for the kids to change my mind.

  43. “Some men cannot marry because they are invisible or unattractive to all but the most unattractive women. ”

    Hey, someone’s talking about me! Although I’ve gone out with examples of the most unattractive women and even they aren’t interested in a second date. There’s no shortage of women telling me what a great guy I am, but none at all will put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. So why should I prepare myself to be a husband?

  44. sunshinemary says:

    I am curious as to how these numbers have changed from previous decades. We see where things are at today, but the perception of the man-boy may be based on the fact that these numbers (perhaps) looked very different 10 and 20 years ago for men. Maybe the Peter Pan impression comes not from comparing men and women but from comparing men now with men in the past.

    And seriously, who are these lazy @ss twenty-somethings without jobs? We all had part-time jobs, the guys and the girls, when I was a university student.

  45. Michael says:

    I’ve just watched a clip from a new Sex in the city copy-cat series referring to a magazine article claiming 96% of women with “20 or more” sex partners “can’t find a husband”. Here is the clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJxntxhtwQU

    This sounds too good to be true. Do any of the numbers mentioned above give any support to this or is it just TV talk?

  46. an observer says:

    Ssm,

    I suggest the 20somethings without jobs are being subsidised by mommy and daddy. Or more likely, by daddy since mommy kicked him out.

  47. Michael says:

    @ Chris,

    “A woman would have to convince me that they are loyal — personally — and that they will improve the lives for the kids to change my mind.”

    Sounds like something a single mother might say..

  48. Michael says:

    @ M3

    “once they hit the wall and all of a sudden wail about commitment, its not because they value it, its under duress.”

    Isn’t that the truth. Duress = Too old too party like I used to. Duress = Too old to get young hot bad boys. Duress = losing my looks. Duress = need a provider. Duress = Clock ticking ovaries.

    You look good in your photo. Are you in the Los Angeles area? I was thinking I would do good with what they call a “wing man”. Maverick and Ice from Top Gun. Don’t worry about money I’ve got you covered. I want to get rejected a few dozen times in the LA area before I’m forced to visit Kiev and Poltova.

  49. Johnycomelately says:

    Doesn’t bode well for the chicks hanging out for Mr. Big when only 11% of unmarried men in the prime marriage bracket (30 – 34) are earning above 75k, given that a good proportion of those men are also probably gay. Not to mention the 63% earning below 40k.

    If anything the data shows that we have a dearth of Mr Averages, with 47% earning between 25k and 75k.

    So all in all it seems that Peter Pan is actually Mr Average.

  50. Martian Bachelor says:

    I’m a little confused on exactly what the definition is of a PPMB (-besides male, youngish, and unmarried). What is it that is being sought in the data?

  51. Johnycomelately says:

    I wonder if the unmarrieds also includes divorcees?

    [D: Yes]

  52. Looking Glass says:

    Finding work in the 20-29 bracket can be very hard, especially at the low end. Lots of reasons, all of the “expected” unexpected consequences of policies.

  53. M3 says:

    @ Michael
    “You look good in your photo. Are you in the Los Angeles area? I was thinking I would do good with what they call a “wing man”. Maverick and Ice from Top Gun. Don’t worry about money I’ve got you covered. I want to get rejected a few dozen times in the LA area before I’m forced to visit Kiev and Poltova.”

    Well thank you kind sir. I’m doing everything possible to correct what i can, eff the rest. Hit the irons, shaved my head (thanks dad) and even got braces to fix my teeth in an effort to up my sex rank. Tho even with all that, i classify myself as a 6. Game might take me to 7.5 tho I don’t have rugged looks, which is the big thing right now. Takes me 5 weeks to get a 5 oclock shadow that’s just patches. And no dark thick locks of hair. I accept these shortcoming but recognize that every woman wants her fantasy boy toy from Twilight or whatnot.

    It’s amazing how guys have to do SOOOO MUCH just to get acknowledged by women 2 ranks lower than them… and this is before the wall where your rank will go up and hers will plummet! I have fuglies hitting me up on PoF in the 3-4 range, imagine how huge of a gap there would be in rank 5-10 years from now? Today’s women (or at least here in Toronto, Canada) are simply too delusional to understand the only reason they get hit on is due to starvation by men grasping for anything. I feel like puking when these women hit on me thinking they deserve to be with me because… well.. because i have a d*ck?.. but ones of my own rank won’t even see me because they’re too busy gazing at BillyRay McGorgeous and BikerBadBoyBillyBonestallion.

    It’s the twilight zone dude. Effin twilight zone, where up is down and “good girls” perform perfect fellatio on a lolipop to show you they got the goods.

    If i’m ever in L.A. it’s most likely that i’m ready to die, and ill let you know when i’m there so we can paint the town red… literally.

  54. M3 says:

    @ InTheFrigidNorth
    “M3, that’s a good inversion of their analogy. Bikes last forever with basic maintenance, while fish can’t help but rot.”

    When speaking of fish who do not need a bicycle.. I cannot help but think of Revelations when i think of today’s women…
    “And the second Angel poured his vessel into The Sea and The Sea became as dead, and every living thing in the sea died.”

  55. M3 says:

    @ SunShineMary
    “…but the perception of the man-boy may be based on the fact that these numbers (perhaps) looked very different 10 and 20 years ago for men. Maybe the Peter Pan impression comes not from comparing men and women but from comparing men now with men in the past.”
    I’m sure that is exactly the impression. There are many old folks who are lamenting how the greatest generation is now watching over a bunch of slackers. It’s too bad all the manufacturing jobs that were the path to their tradcon lives up and left. The economy is shot and with so many men unable to find work in a ‘service based’ economy.. well, it’s hard to match the towering image of those hard working men in the mills and assembly lines in the car plants. Many natural alpha’s don’t seem to have a problem becoming bankers, stock brokers and working for Goldman Sachs.. so they’re well taken care of…

    “And seriously, who are these lazy @ss twenty-somethings without jobs? We all had part-time jobs, the guys and the girls, when I was a university student.”
    Ohh, a lot of guys are still getting jobs… just not the ones that yield high dollars for high stress because it’s not worth it and has been shown to not matter to today’s ‘i dont need no man’ womyn. It’s part of the MGTOW philosophy of least resistance. Earn enough for yourself, and turn your back on the needs of a society that blatantly told you your needs didn’t matter.

    We let our lack of tax dollars do all the talking for us.

  56. DeNihilist says:

    My God, i thought I was at a Swedish site!

  57. Hurting says:

    @Chris…

    I feel you. I’m a few years younger, but I seriously can’t envision seriously dating anyone for a very long time, if ever. It surely won’t happen until my sons are safely on their own (currently teens). Their mother in their life is enough insanity for them right now.

    I am not looking forward to the day that my ex brings home a new beau. She has totally misread the hurt and anger my sons have been stuffing down, interpreting it as all directed toward me. Should this new guy (who odds are will be in his mid-50′s to late 60′s) say the wrong thing (which could be pretty much anything given all they’ve endured) to my older son, 6’0″, 230 lb., (who has suffered more for some reason than the younger one), it will be, as the kids say, “On”. If it goes south for this son, the S will really HTF. His little brother, 5’10″, 200 lb., wrestler and football player, who I have seen ready to kill his older brother (99% of the time they are the best of friends; the other 1% is WWIII), will finish it with extreme prejudice. Needless to say, should some new man deign to lay hands on either of these young men, the readers of the manosphere will have heard the last of hurting (who is 6’2″ and a pretty solid 240), at least for a while. I take no joy or pride whatsoever in this prediction and fervently pray that it does not come to pass.

  58. Hurting says:

    Meant to say early 60′s above.

  59. DeNihilist says:

    Nice thing about aboot getting old, those fours become fives, then sixes, then……

  60. Anonymous Reader says:

    SSM, in many colleges there is no way for a part time job to be of much use. Enormous State U now costs in some cases $20K / year, while the standard 20 hr/week student job is good for maybe $10K. Lots of students just take on more debt and press on to graduate, hoping to get a job with the Federal government that will provide for some relief of student loan debt. I see plenty of men and women in their 20′s working part time jobs at two different locations – coffee joint and restaurant, or day care center and physical therapy, or call center and convenience store clerk, etc.
    A lot of skill set mismatches – degrees that are not in demand with lots of graduates, while STEM jobs go unfilled. A lot of businesses in the 50 to 500 employee range are losing money, and therefore not hiring. At the risk of threadjacking, these graphs of Dalrock’s show us some change but not much hope…

  61. an observer says:

    As mentioned to dc at ssms place, stem jobs are often thin on the ground. I left behind family and friends for better employment prospects and would do it again for the right job.

    That said, jobs for unskilled younger men are notoriously underpaid. The loss of manufacturing industries had eroded a good source of opportunity. Hence, the the young guy on a meagre wage gets no respect.

    Especiallly in church.

  62. Matt Strictland says:

    sunshine, a lot of young men are unemployed up to 50% in some places and 1st world countries , though granted some of them are in system D, the underground economy. They can’t work

    The reason is a lot of jobs simply no longer exist do to automation and outsourcing. As an example, if you wanted to buy some music in the 90′s say, you’d have to go to a store (or go mail order) and buy a CD.

    This created a long complex chain of jobs . For just the physical media someone was needed to mold the CD, mold the cover, make the cover, make the sleeve ship the CD, stock the CD , ship it to stores and sell it.

    And on top of this there were tons of other middle men in the making of the music. Most of those jobs no longer exist and we buy downloads.

    Hundreds of other business are the same way and while some new jobs for creative types have been made, its not enough to make up for the lost ones especially for average folks.

    This delays growing up and reduces family size, throw in policies that create inflation and hurt married men and you have a recipe for exactly what we are seeing, social decline.

  63. ton says:

    what’ s the point in not playing “Peter Pan”? As a young man I did all the country and society asked of me, including getting shot in the chest fighting the drug war and it earned me nothing but a miserable marriage, divorce and alimony. My child never bought into my ex wife’ s lies so I’m blessed compared to many men

    Perhaps I’d think different if my post divorce dating experience was better or my own experience less common among men. Or if society began to take our complaints seriously. There is no sign of that occurring any time soon and how long would it take for changes to occur? Add to that most men are invisible to women, giving average me even less incentive to stop playing “Peter Pan”‘. Which begs another question, how many times is the typical man supposed to be shot down and keep stepping up to the plate? I gave up on dating, but recently a fat, old chick told me she would be all over me if I was taller. WTF over? 100k+ salary, successful power-lifting “carer”, no debt etc and still to short for a landwhale’s affection? No thanks. and I have a Harley, scars and a couple of tattoos. Not sure the bad ass biker thing works like men think

    I’d like to see at lest maybe women should change article for every man shaming article but that won’ t happen either.

    The upside is, we are living in the golden age of firearms, muscle cars, cigars, bourbon etc all and thanks to a bad economy, call girls.

    my friends, enjoy the decline in whatever manner suits you best

  64. an observer says:

    Matt, you have that right.

    The industrialisation of china in a bare generation has been enabled largely by american consumerism and cheap credit.

    Or ‘they sweat, we think’.

    The final abandonment of a specie backed currency by nixon in ’71 sealed the deal.

    Of course, millions of people have been displaced and unable to change industries or acquire new skills. But the bankers and paper merchants of american banking had bonuses to achieve.

    Welcome to the new normal. A heavily indebted, post industrial, service-based economy. Where the old get sacked, the young make peanuts and those that adapt are squeezed by cinstant regulatory oversight.

  65. @ Sunshine Mary
    “Seriously, who are these lazy @ss twenty-somethings without jobs? We all had part-time jobs, the guys and the girls, when I was a university student.”

    Having gone through a year of grad school and also hitting up my undergrad college for some young pickings when I visit home, I’ve seen that the majority of young men and women now simply have little to no work experience when they get to college and arent employable. At all.

    The jobs they wouldhhae had in high school were taken by college grads. The college grads took these because there were no entry level jobs besides shitty or unpaid internships. You can follow the chain all the way up to where people arent retiring because they fucked up their retirement. It kills the entry level positions when someone decideds to stay on an extra five years and get paid the amount of four entry level jobs.

    So you have kids following their parents drive that they MUST GO TO COLLEGE! RAWR! But either parents pay for everything or they just take out even higher student loans to pay for rent and living expenses while they go to college. Hell, I’ve seen even late 20′s early 30′s grad students do that last one. Then they graduate with less money, less job experience, and more debt.

    Its a vicious cycle all around

  66. willis668 says:

    I’m one of the peter pan manboys and unashamed of it. I chose this path a few years back when I decided that I could not trust the women of my generation. Everything was always a battle; every interaction a test of will loaded with the potential to be manipulated and subordinated. I could have continues fighting and won my fair share, but I didn’t see the point; I saw that no matter the number of battles won, there would always be more to come. I decided that the sex wasn’t worth it, and the companionship value was almost nil for the above cited reasons.

    When I made this decision I left my arduous career track and turned away from women. I now live a frugal life and am therefore invisible to women, and that’s okay with me. Pornography is an okay sexual substitute. Not as good as the real thing, but comes without the baggage. I don’t miss the battles and do not intend to return the sexual marketplace.

  67. taterearl says:

    I still think marriage is a great God given institution. It’s the fairer sex that has ruined it for everybody. If you found the diamond in the rough, then you should thank whatever you pray to that there is still some good women around.

    I don’t look down on marriage itself…I do look down on feminism and the laws that turn something truly good into a personal hell for men. The options now are to avoid it altogether and keep your money and sanity, roll the dice hoping you found the unicorn in the female species (even then she could change her mind on a whim), or celibate it up as a monk or priest.

    I don’t subscribe to being a Peter Pan myself…I grew up. My Peter Pan days were when I thought women were sugar and spice and everything nice. Now I know they are grenades and bombs who never keep calm.

  68. Brendan says:

    If you are invisible, you are invisible… as a 52 y.o. who goes to the gym, is tall, pulls down a good salary and has a paid off car and house… totally invisible @ church. Most of the divorced women, however, there are psychological and financial wrecks and … I would not let them into my boys life.

    When you are raising the kids post divorce, the first thing you have to ask yourself is if this relationship will damage the kids.

    Because the kids would not handle another divorce. The default position, thus, is not to date, and not to marry. A woman would have to convince me that they are loyal — personally — and that they will improve the lives for the kids to change my mind.

    This is a sensible approach, and pretty much the only sane one for someone who is divorced with kids.

    On the “visibility” issue, it just is what it is. There are guys in their 50s who are not invisible, of course, as well. There are a lot of factors that go into it, but in reality the women who are in this market are almost all divorced with their own sets of issues, and that feeds into this as well, I think.

  69. sunshinemary says:

    I understand what everyone is saying about the economy and all that, but I think that there is a change in attitude toward work at play here. I started babysitting at 12. All my girlfriends did, too. I guess the boys must have had paper routes or something like that. We loved having our own money and were raised to pursue independence. Something has changed, and kids no longer feel that drive to strive for any independence. I’m not talking careers here; I’m talking high school/college kids working as busboys or waitresses or other unskilled service jobs. It would never have occurred to any of us at university not to work part-time and just coast on mom and dad’s dime, and I went to univ. with a lot of very wealthy people (though personally I came from a poor family).

    We aren’t seeing Peter Pan man-boys when we compare men and women. That doesn’t mean that we haven’t raised up an entire Peter Pan generation.

  70. Anon7 says:

    Never mind the manboys. Look at this article, and see if this is the reason for angry white boys who slaughter innocents:

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/guns-and-the-decline-of-the-young-man/?src=me&ref=general

    “For women, things are looking up. We can vote, we can make more choices about our bodies than in decades past, we’ve made significant progress regarding fair pay, and more women are involved in American politics than ever before. The same can be said for minorities. However, because resources are limited, gains for women and minorities necessarily equal losses for white males. Even if this feels intuitively fair to many, including those white males who are happy to share resources for the greater benefit of the nation as a whole, it must feel absolutely distressing for those who are uncomfortable with change and who have a difficult time adjusting to the inevitable reordering of society.”

  71. Altimanix says:

    @Anon7
    congrats on the writer giving it such a poisonous frame. only the old and the losers can have any issues with modern society. pure feminist poetry. I hope that her cats eat her when she dies alone.

  72. retrophoebia says:

    “While I didn’t find confirmation of the myth, I am astounded at the number of unmarried men and women who earn either nothing or extremely small amounts. Certainly part of this is due to the poor economy. However, I have to wonder if we aren’t seeing men no longer perceiving heading a family as an incentive to work harder, and therefore the real complaint is that single men have started working more like single women.”

    Well, yes. Zerohedge covered this a while ago (and again here) about how entitlement benefits dramatically reduce the incentives to go out and work. So your charts aren’t showing the full story. The women earning $15k /year in your charts probably have much more than that in disposable income, and hence have no incentive whatsoever to work and improve their Peter Ma’am status. What astounds me is that men are still pulling out of this trap to actually earn more, per your charts. Either they can’t do the welfare math as well or they’re just plain more motivated to get out and do things.

    If men are starting to work more like single women, they’re starting to figure out that they can and still live a decent life. What you subsidize, you get more of, and all that.

  73. JS says:

    Game is the answer to the problem of feminism; Christian Love is the answer to the problems of Game.

  74. Athor Pel says:

    “sunshinemary says:
    December 18, 2012 at 8:05 am

    I understand what everyone is saying about the economy and all that, but I think that there is a change in attitude toward work at play here. I started babysitting at 12. All my girlfriends did, too. I guess the boys must have had paper routes or something like that. We loved having our own money and were raised to pursue independence. Something has changed, and kids no longer feel that drive to strive for any independence. I’m not talking careers here; I’m talking high school/college kids working as busboys or waitresses or other unskilled service jobs. It would never have occurred to any of us at university not to work part-time and just coast on mom and dad’s dime, and I went to univ. with a lot of very wealthy people (though personally I came from a poor family).

    We aren’t seeing Peter Pan man-boys when we compare men and women. That doesn’t mean that we haven’t raised up an entire Peter Pan generation.”

    The laws concerning the employment of minors began to be widened to include all types of work, not just industrial jobs. Those laws have been more stringently enforced as well. You can thank the nanny state mindset for that. It’s pretty much illegal to teach your children how to be a responsible adult while they are amenable to the lesson. Those jobs that minors used to get no longer exist for them. Immigrants have them now.

    Many parents aren’t allowing their kids to work as well. They almost see it as immoral to demand their children work once they are able. They’ve imbibed the cultural zeitgeist to an extreme degree without being aware of the true consequences.

    Childhood has been extended till later and later in life until we have what we have now, which is thirty year old children whining when life doesn’t go their way and taking no responsibility for their own lives. And they vote.

  75. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    While I didn’t find confirmation of the myth, I am astounded at the number of unmarried men and women who earn either nothing or extremely small amounts.

    You have your Peter Pans right there. What’s not said is that Wendy Wishes is still telling–and more importantly: being told–fairy-tales. You have laid out the map of the ground where you and Slumlord/SP meet. His hang-up (ironically) is that because Wendy Wishes acts like a man, she’s a better woman than Peter Pan is a man…except we don’t need any more transgender men, thankyouverymuch.

    Thanks for compiling this. Every time I think I understand the depth of the problem, your research plumbs deeper. Twenty-somethings without jobs? I can’t relate. I’ve had an outside-the-home job since I was 11. I see these folks. They exist in my family, too, but I tend to consider them outliers. Guess not…

  76. Looking Glass says:

    @SSM:

    It’s a lot of “good luck finding a job” these days. We’ve practically made youth employment extinct. Between Minimum Wage laws (in some places, the cost per employee is up 150% in the last decade, which is a nice way to say they employ 2 people for what was previously 5), Illegal Immigration (so, no physical work available) and the much higher work experience requirements in hiring (Catch-22 situation), getting a hold of a job anywhere but the high population cities is pretty damn hard.

    I sort of made due by finding a lot of work that, well, didn’t pay. Some side computer work for people and in-kind trades worked well to get some solid experience. Plus I worked, on campus, 20ish hours a week for all of college. But outside of that and the MASSIVE inflation in college costs (400% since ’86?, I believe), it’s hard to find much work that pays.

    Now, if you have a family with a business, that’s a GREAT way to get experience. Minus the government will probably ban you from legally working for your family until 16. They recently tried to ban children under 16 from working on their family-owned farms. This isn’t a joke.

  77. Buck says:

    @
    Athor Pel says:
    December 18, 2012 at 9:34 am

    DEAD ON SIR!!!!

    1) The jobs once done by entry level teens are now primary income for illegal immigrants.
    2) Hyper-protective parents are coddling their kids too much, stunting their entry into adulthood!
    3) Marxist child labor laws have closed off most youth employment opportunity.
    4) video/media generation kids are fat, lazy and full of “self esteem”…for what I’ll never know.
    5) Lawyers have scared even neighbors from hiring kids for odd jobs.

    I find myself loving the Tiger Moms big time…they are brutal with their kids, but damn, those over-achieving Asian kids are remarkable.

    I’ve told my kid from the start, I don’t care if I’m ever your friend…but you’ll never doubt that I’m your parent…fact is we’re best friends…shhhhh, don’t tell

    Oh, and my kid works odds-n-ends jobs where I can find someone who will hire a teen…no easy thing!
    I tell her that the reason she is unemployed…illegal immigrants and Democrats.

  78. koevoet says:

    Anon7, your article showed perfectly why society is having problems. If pieces of feces like that are actually considered journalism I have no confusion whatsoever as to why people are defective in our society.

  79. sunshinemary says:

    @ Looking Glass and others

    So, is it the case that a high school kid/college young adult can no longer find a job at MacDonald’s? I’m asking because I really don’t know. I’m 43, so I haven’t had one of those kinds of jobs in a very long time, and none of my children can work yet (other than the eldest one who has just started babysitting). I don’t interact much with people in the 18-22 age range.

    I’m skeptical that they can’t find jobs, but I’m willing to be told I’m wrong. My guess is that young people have been told how sensational they are from birth and don’t feel they should have to soil their hands in french fry grease (or baby poo or whatever). But I may be out of touch on this issue.

  80. MackPUA says:

    @SunshineMary

    “Something has changed, and kids no longer feel that drive to strive for any independence.”

    Because men fight for their right to bring their uniqueness & ingenuity to a community

    Women fight for independence despite their lack of goods or services

    Independence is a distraction, to prevent women from becoming individuals, with real skills & usable practical skills

    Todays children, Its not independence, its because they dont strive for individuality or a political & socially aware voice of their own

    Individuality creates drive & ambition

    Grit & determination are created by carving out your soul, your uniqueness as a person

    How can you have grit & determination if you dont even have your individuality to fight for … ?

    Its because children arent taught to be individuals, thanks to rap & gangster music, theyre taught hard work & study arent something they should be interested in

    How can you have drive & ambition, if you dont have individuality & uniqueness to fight for?

    If you’re not taught to value the incredible gifts & uniqueness of your individuality, how can children have drive & self determination?

    How can you have grit & determination if you dont even have your individuality to fight for … ?

  81. Anonymous says:

    News Flash: Woman admits why she cheated on her (now Ex-)Husband and regrets doing it! (Soon to be expelled from the ranks Team Woman, no doubt.)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13/why-i-cheated-on-my-husba_n_2240535.html

    (Of course, the moving-on-with-your-life-after-divorce book for women that she’s plugging at the bottom of the article is pure rationalization hamster wheel-spinning, so perhaps not so much in the doghouse w/ her peers.)

  82. tyciol says:

    22to28: ” I can relate, as a 26 yr old unmarried male. We’re not afraid of marriage, we are afraid of the women. They are TOO strong and independent for us!”

    Oy, my strawman/troll-suspecting tingle is occuring. I won’t jump the gun, but am having trouble taking this seriously. I don’t think we are afraid merely of independence or of strong.

    I personally, as a fellow 26 year old unmarried guy, am not afraid of women with equal agency, but rather, women with system-enforced advantages that allow them to exploit us. Child support being a primary way, but also ‘common law’ where you can be considered married without having signed a marriage contract.

    Marriage itself is undesirable due to alimony strangeness.

  83. tweell says:

    Living in a border state, I saw how the illegals started taking the entry level jobs in the late 60′s and really got going in the 70′s. I had a thriving lawn-cutting business after school and on weekends, and a group of illegals wanted it. I fought, lost (big kid, but against 4 men…) and only kept my business because Dad mopped the floor with them. Most kids gave in, not having a Golden Gloves heavyweight for a father, and they eventually got the area when I went into the military.

    My little brother was one of the last paperboys in our town. There was an incident where a child abuser raped a paperboy, and the paper delivery went to adults after that. Baby-sitting still exists, but full-time babysitters usually speak broken English. Construction is almost completely composed of illegals, the easiest way to shut down a construction site is to yell that the border patrol is on their way. The fast food restaurants are primarily staffed with them as well – english speakers are put in the front, if they have any.

    No paperwork to fill out, no taxes to pay, no worries about minimum wages, overtime, set break times… once one business uses illegals, all the rest in that sector have to follow or get run out of business.

  84. UnicornHunter says:

    @SSM

    I can’t speak for the entire country or everyone. My impression is that work is available, but often it doesn’t pay very well, what jobs are available have no associated positive social status, and are hard work.

    However, it may be that my perspective is skewed as I live in a very UMC part of the metro area in which I live(no resession here).

  85. 8oxer says:

    Dear Tyciol:

    I can actually relate a lot to the original comment, in the context that “strong and independent” almost always mean “bitchy and whiny”. With that in mind, sure, there’s a limit to how much time I want to spend in the company of a “strong and independent” woman.

    I personally, as a fellow 26 year old unmarried guy, am not afraid of women with equal agency, but rather, women with system-enforced advantages that allow them to exploit us.

    That too.

    Ultimately, if I wanted to be barked at, ordered around and complained to, I’d go out with another dude. At least he wouldn’t bitch about the toilet seat.

    Regards, Boxer

  86. hurting says:

    @SSM

    While I seldom make this point around my teenage sons (they are going to have to deal with the problem of scarcity of employment opportunities) there is a serious lack of jobs at all levels due to the confluence of several factors, including:

    1. The veritable elimination of sizable portions of employment due to automation. Machines, including computers, have made the remaining workers far more productive than their counterparts of yesteryear. In addition to the displaced low-level employees you can add their supervisors and mid-managers. It is tempting to view this phenomenon as affecting only the lowest skilled of the workforce, but it has it parallels in the semi-skilled arena.

    2. The combination of outsourcing to foreign countries coupled with schizophrenic immigration policies (depressing STEM wages by importing skilled labor while looking the other way while illegals pour over the border and displace the unskilled). There are precious few jobs in this country that can’t be done by someone not from here either by bringing him (or allowing him to come) here or takng the work to him (either physically or virtually). The great equilibration of standards of living is well under way and will not turn back.

    3. Domestic workers, namely men, are also facing competition from non-traditional sources, namely women and older workers.

    4. It is simply too easy to remain idle.

    You and others are correct in that beyond the primary economic reasons noted above (and in my estimation they are necessary and sufficient in and of themselves to disincentivize the labor force), other factors, such as elitism and shiftlessness, do work against a higher level of workforce participation.

  87. I’m skeptical that they can’t find jobs, but I’m willing to be told I’m wrong. My guess is that young people have been told how sensational they are from birth and don’t feel they should have to soil their hands in french fry grease (or baby poo or whatever). But I may be out of touch on this issue.
    SSM
    I agree with you that the jobs are there, my take is based on having lived in two metro areas, one in TX the other in TN and having work aged kids who went out, found jobs, on occasion didn’t like a job, found another….etc. Their circle of friends are similar in experience. This proves nothing nationally, but it supports your questions.

  88. Buck says:

    sunshinemary says:
    December 18, 2012 at 10:42 am

    Sunshine, there are Labor Dept agents checking family farms to make sure there is no child labor going on, Micky D’s has been all illegal all the time for years, most paper routes are drive routes staffed by adults, muffy is loathe to trust your teen with snuggums her trophy child, so babysitting is tough to find, movie theater ushers are now senior citizens, corporate farms no longer hire white kids to de-tassle corn or pick fruit, that’s all illegal immigrants, gas stations are no longer full service, lawn service are all illegals( hell Juan brings his own mover and cuts the whole hood for 10 bucks a yard, whats not to like, done in 15 minutes, bills you monthly), grocery store baggers are union now, teen employment is very difficult to find!
    Shoveling snow in the winter is still available, oh and slinging dope or acting as a look-out for five-O, these are still teen jobs, that and holding the gun for gangsters, juvenile offenders don’t go to jail for felony gun arrests.
    Oh and there is burglary, purse snatching and breaking into cars for change and stereos.
    I wish I were being sarcastic, but no, there is a huge increase in juvenile crime…I’ve talked with these kids, they want walking around money and no one will hire them.
    Everywhere and in every way, illegal immigrants are killing this country…and I love these new comers, looking for a break, the problem is, their break is killing my country.

  89. 8oxer says:

    What astounds me is that men are still pulling out of this trap to actually earn more, per your charts. Either they can’t do the welfare math as well or they’re just plain more motivated to get out and do things.

    Most of the men who sign on the dole will survive. A lot of them seem to do it by shacking up with a single mom, or getting a disability pension. In the US and Canada you can get a doctor to sign forms saying you’re too depressed to work, too fat, too addicted to painkillers, or just too stressed out. These are perfectly legitimate “disabilities” in North America. A couple of guys I work out with are “disabled” in such ways, aside from being in the prime of life with huge muscles and perfect physical health (not working a job means you can spend huge chunks of time pumping iron, swimming and otherwise getting your physical therapy in).

    I have nothing against such people who do these things. They are, to use an old euphemism, bleeding the beast. For the men in my circle, though, a job is a game. It’s a contest to achieve real world recognition and status. Sure, it’s meaningless, but it’s fun and it pays the bills. I could find some excuse to sign on the dole too, work the gray market part time for the extras, and enjoy life, but it’s not my style. I suspect there are many like me.

    I know a couple of people (one has a fairly well-known MRA blog) who go half and half. They work until they are at the edge of the minimum tax bracket, then get laid off and collect the dole and food stamps so that they don’t have to pay any money into the government. Best of both worlds, I suppose.

    Regards, Boxer

  90. Robert in Arabia says:

    Single mother control

  91. DeNihilist says:

    SSM, my eldest, in third year Uni (but in Canada, where costs are subsidized) makes his money officating hockey. Nice thing about this is that up here at least, it is considered a stipend, so no taxes. Keeps him in shape, is interesting and if he wants, possibility of career advancement. He knows wto other older officials, one from the States, who paid for their Uni years completely this way. There are of course all the other sports out there that are crying for officials. And a lot of them start at 12 years of age. Makes for developement of leadership, responsibility, and how to manage money from an early age. Something to keep in mind as your kids age.

  92. Athor Pel says:

    A large part of the explanation for the shape of those graphs goes to minimum wage laws. It also explains why young and legal workers have a hard time getting jobs. They are too inexperienced to merit the wage mandated by law. A business can’t hire them because the work they are capable of doing doesn’t rise to the level of paying back the wage the business owner is required to pay.

    Assuming a business owner decides to give the kid a chance, the kid will need to really bust his ass doing the menial stuff while learning the value-added stuff at the same time. Which means the kid needs to earn the owner’s trust.

    My advice to young folks that want to work. Take advantage of living with your parents. It’s free room and board. Go actively seek no-pay internships in the industries that interest you. Work your ass off, learn what they have to teach you and do whatever they ask you to do, within reason. Don’t tell anybody about it in case child labor laws enter into it.

    At the end of the internship you will have learned enough to merit being an experienced hire. And years before your peers which are still waiting tables and/or going to college.

    Doing a few of these internships before going to college will also settle in your mind what degree program you want to pursue. The guidance of your internship employers will likely help there as well.

    You might not need to go to college depending on the what kind work you want to do and what kind of mind you have.

  93. CassMan says:

    I am now 32 years of age and have been in the Peter Pan role for several years. For the Men out there that believe that:

    - Making over 100k/year
    - Over 6 feet tall
    - Muscular
    - Intelligent
    - Socially skilled
    - Aloof
    - Attractive

    Is a recipe for success with Women, I’ve got some bad news for you. While all of these will undoubtedly raise your chances for success with Women in your lifetime, you will not be immune to the hypergamous betrayals, near constant-shit tests and undue male pressures being applied. I am living proof and I have several social circles of Alpha men with the same stories.

    I was a late bloomer who couldn’t pay a woman for a date high school, ditto for college. I learned early on that my best chances for success in life was to focus on myself first, and let everything else fall into place. My looks had not ‘blossomed’ fully yet as I filled out physically probably around my early 20′s. I did not have the confidence in school to push myself into the athletic ring of talents (and bask in the unlimited access to pussy that path promised), despite being physical gifted. I had a chaotic family life that took up most of my attention, trying to keep my Mother and Father from killing each other (literally at the end).

    By my mid-20′s all my hard work started to pay off. I had found a full time job after school and was excelling, my student debt was paid off and I had worked 24/7 to physically put myself into the proper shape I always wanted to have. This was made more difficult due to knee injuries from weights / sports when I was younger. As I physically became stronger, as I excelled at work in social and technical situations, my confidence in my own abilities went parabolic over time. I had put myself through school on my own, got a job on my own and moved up, rehabilitated my knees as well as start a small business on my own. All of which I was told I could not accomplish by Men and Women alike. Now, something really, really interesting started to take form during this time: Women started to give a shit about me.

    It was for all the wrong reasons (to me), my job (status), my wealth (status), my physical appearance, all aspects about who I am as a Man that I found shallow when compared to my views on the World, my ethics and morals, my goals as a Man and a person, you know, the SHIT that makes me ME and not M3, or Deiti or every other good Man here with his own story and destiny.

    I could regale you Gentlemen all night about the Red Pill truths about human nature I learned on my own, painfully, but I see this as more of a constructive meeting place for Men (and Women) to discuss ideas for moving forward. In my experiences a Man’s worth to a Woman starts and ends with his ability to provide, period. If you are providing for her financially and emotionally (Beta) but are not her ideal version of a Man (Alpha) in bed, or in social situations, or you no longer stack up against Rick, her new cube mate at the office who sky dives every other weekend and constantly hits on her, you’re fucked. She will cheat on you eventually, you never had a chance likely.

    Who cares how much money you make Gentlemen? I’ve made well more than the average joe, work out daily, eat healthy, constantly push to improve myself spiritually, financially and socially and get compared to Ryan Phillippe in the looks department. Yes, having money, looks, social awareness and dominance all help, but it won’t change the outcome in the end unless you are constantly gaming your Woman. There is ALWAYS another Man out there that is not sick of your Woman’s bullshit, and she knows this too. At this point, after witnessing the nature of Women (good, bad and the ugly) up close, I have no further illusions about them, at all. I have done EVERYTHING asked by the female populace and it was never enough. What is more, on several occasions in my youth, when I did / gave everything my Woman told me she wanted…

    I Lost Everything.

    I’ll repeat that for some of you Gentlemen that are new to the club.

    Every single time I listened to / gave a Woman exactly she said she wanted, I lost everything.

    I’m no fool, I have called countless Women out on this behaviour, to me and other Men. You’ll quickly learn that most (not all) Women cannot be reasoned with. Logic versus Emotion is one of the most fruitless endeavours a rational Male can engage in. Cut your losses. Virtually every teaching in the PUA handbook not only works, it is necessary. As a final note:

    The most success I have enjoyed in my young life is when I lived life for myself, and yes, I still managed to include other people in it and treat them damn well, specifically Women. When I spinned plates, laughed-off most shit tests and generally lived an aloof ‘devil-may-care’ lifestyle, I was at my happiest. Women also respected me more than they did when I was in a long term relationship with them.

    The problem was that I listened to what Women SAID and not to what they DID. My fault. Do yourself a favour and learn from each other. I’ve had a successful life, all things considered, and the wisdom that has been imparted upon me via Dalrock, Rollo, CH, Mark Minter, M3, YaReally, etc, has been paramount. I could give you some stories on how I got what I wanted out of some very difficult Women in the past using PUA, even when I didn’t know about PUA (example: I am naturally aloof and often do not put a lot of importance on the outcome of personal relationships with Woman, partially because I know I can find another with relative ease). You cannot imagine the FREE sex Woman would beg me to take from them simply out of my aloof ‘you want to pull this shit with me, there’s the door, I don’t care how many other Men you have orbiting you, my place, my rules, my bed’.

    I cannot fault a single Man in 2012 for not marrying. It is a bad deal and most Men now (including myself) have opted out of pure necessity.

    Survival > Marriage.

    Good luck to you all

  94. Brendan says:

    That Liza Long piece made smoke come out of my ears when I read it yesterday. What a fucking horrible bitch of a mother. No, bitch, your son isn’t mentally ill, he’s a boy. He isn’t going to comply easily when he’s looking to buck you. If you can’t enforce that, well, that’s what you get for being a single mother — if Dad were there, that’s what Dad deals with — see how that works, you numbskull?

    That was an outrageous story. Outrageous.

  95. UnicornHunter says:

    If your moral, ethical, and political view allow for military service, it can be a very helpful in competing for work in the civilian world. It takes selling the military service properly, and I can only speak regarding service as an officer and not in the combat arms.

    It meant that I didn’t have to do the whole trying to find a job right out of college, I had a job in hand. Then, when I left the military, people looked at the company grade officer with the STEM degree and experience with computers and were very receptive.

  96. SSM – ” I started babysitting at 12. All my girlfriends did, too. I guess the boys must have had paper routes or something like that. We loved having our own money and were raised to pursue independence. Something has changed, and kids no longer feel that drive to strive for any independence. I’m not talking careers here; I’m talking high school/college kids working as busboys or waitresses or other unskilled service jobs.”

    Speaking only for myself, I wasn’t allowed to have a real job because my grades weren’t high enough. Not that having a job would have made much difference, since by high school I was pretty much slapping together my homework on the bus to school in the mornings anyway.

    As for independence, it seems like every time I tried I was told to stay in line (more by peers than parents, and in a much harsher manner, but I got it from parents too). Eventually there didn’t seem to be a point to doing anything but just getting by and finding some entertainment wherever I could.

    Again, this is just my own experience, but I know a few others who went through the same thing, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened elsewhere too.

    “So, is it the case that a high school kid/college young adult can no longer find a job at MacDonald’s? I’m asking because I really don’t know….I’m skeptical that they can’t find jobs, but I’m willing to be told I’m wrong. My guess is that young people have been told how sensational they are from birth and don’t feel they should have to soil their hands in french fry grease (or baby poo or whatever).”

    That attitude is a part of it, I’m sure, but minimum wage laws have largely priced entry level workers out of the market.

  97. DeNihilist says:

    Interesting side note about Mickey Dee. Up here we have a huge franchise called Tim Horton’s (named after a hockey player of course). My eldest worked at one of their branches for a couple of summers. I always found it interesting that most of the staff were Fillipino. (Same with Mickey Dee, Burger King, etc.). I just found out that the majority of the Fillipinos are here on work permits, which are issued to employers who can show that the “skilled” labour they need cannot be filled by Canadians. It appears that most local kids in my part do not want to start their work life at minimum wage, which by the way, around here is 10.25/hr.

  98. FuriousFerret says:

    @DeNihilist

    It’s about the money issue being low, it’s about teens don’t want the social touch of death of working at a fast food joint.

    Clothing stores at the mall hire at minimum wage and they have a wait list for teens because it has social status to work at them.

  99. FuriousFerret says:

    * It’s not about the money issue being low

  100. 8oxer says:

    If your moral, ethical, and political view allow for military service, it can be a very helpful in competing for work in the civilian world.

    I have a friend who got a job in communications in the military. Unfortunately, the communications systems he was charged with building and maintaining during his enlistment bore no resemblance to the commercial radio and telephone infrastructure that exists in the private sector.

    Aaron Clarey (a/k/a Captain Capitalism) wrote an interesting book entitled *worthless*. He paints in broad strokes, but he’s largely right on. I don’t think a degree in literature, psychology or philosophy is totally worthless, as he does, but I agree that degrees in such fields aren’t worth the 40,000 – 100,000 books/fee/tuition pricetag.

    If you are a kid just starting out, and you do not want to go into the military, or you just got out of the military and have no real marketable skill, you should consider a trade program at a community college. Skilled carpenters, electricians and opticians often make as much as attorneys or accountants if they get a union job, or if they get contractors licenses and work for themselves.

    If you don’t know exactly what you want to do, go to community college anyway. Work as hard as you can, don’t waste time dating women, and get the best grades possible for a year. Many people bootstrap themselves into honors scholarships and tuition waivers at good transfer institutions this way. They graduate with minimal or no debt, and get decent jobs right out of school with engineering/nursing/etc. degrees.

    If you really love literature, art history, gender studies or the like, you can always study that stuff later, in night classes or on your own, after you are established in a good career. Unless you’re a millionaire, a degree in such stuff probably will be a waste of time in the long run.

  101. Brendan says:

    I agree with all of that if you are not at the top. If you are at the top, and can perform at the top at an HYS type school, you should go there, perform your ass off and finish in the top 10-15% and then you have options, especially if you are STEM, but even not — again, it has to do with being at the top. The top people can benefit a lot from a solid performance at a top school. The issue with educational worthlessness has to do with the also-rans who are the rank and file of any university student body — they exist to pay the bills for the university, but aren’t gaining that much out of the exercise, at least not compared to the cost.

  102. Bully says:

    And if you can’t get into a top school, then go to the cheapest one you can find and well and truly excel at it. I couldn’t get into any top tier schools despite near perfect ACTs (long story) so I went to a university no ones ever heard of (still accredited though, no U of Phoenix weirdness), absolutely slaughtered my classes, networked like crazy,contributed to open sourced projects, started freelancing, etc and I’m still making ~100k just shy of 30 with a STEM degree with like 2k left in student loan debt.

    If you truly own your education it doesn’t seem to matter much where you go, though I’ll admit a big name school will open doors that weren’t available to me no matter what I did. I graduated in 05 though nd I haven’t really kept up on how much costs have increased at the cheapest schools.

  103. Michael says:

    @ Cassman

    I think we have allot of things in common. Are you in the Greater Los Angeles area? I’m looking for wing-man. I make more money than you however you’re taller than me (and probably better looking) so it should even out.

    How are you able to sustain a long term relationship leading to marriage with a young attractive female if you’re going to follow advise from predatory pick up artists ?

  104. Blyth says:

    Interestingly I’ve never taken the peter-pan man-child to be about income at all. I always thought it was just a refusal to grow up or change/accept the responsibilities of adulthood. I and a ton of my friends make around six figures and don’t have much debt (its been paid off). But we generally choose to spend a lot of time enjoying that money on childish pursuits such as music, video-games, graphic novels, cars, you know, fun stuff, instead of supporting a family or courting serious relationships. And they’re not classic introverted geeks, either, they’re athletic, attractive men who have either been burnt in relationships early in their twenties or just never saw the ROI or could be bothered by them, although I admit that’s changing a little bit as the late thirties approach my peers, so even when they’re settling down, it’s much, much later in life than previous generations and when they settle they’re often refusing to give up a lot of childish pursuits. They’re guys that historically would be amazing “greater beta” catches, but its not worth it for them. They don’t plan on children particularly, and some of them will spend weeks building a functional robot for burning man, but they don’t have any interest in maintaining a yard or doing home-improvement. Some of them are making a lot less than they could be because they enjoy having free time or a low-stress lifestyle. A couple do even live at home because they just don’t see the point of not doing so if they’re not going to head out on their own.

    I’ve always thought these are the real “peter pan” men who scare feminists and women, much more of the MGTOW crowd I suppose. Men who should be the “catches.”

  105. Johnycomelately says:

    Would it be consistent that the same cohort of men earning plus 75k in the 30-34 range would become the same cohort in the 40-44 range?

    Take away gays and divorcees this leaves something in the order of 10% of unmarried men over 30 earning 75k+.

    Given the female predeliction to hyperagamy, it seems that the Peter Pans that women are screaming about are actually a very narrow band of men. I wouldn’t be surprised if all the noise being made in the mass media is the roughly 10% of women post 30 earning over 75k not being able to lock down one of these men.

  106. Michael says:

    @ UnicornHunter

    “If your moral, ethical, and political view allow for military service, it can be a very helpful in competing for work in the civilian world”

    I don’t agree with this. With the exception of a few career areas (law enforcement, government worker, private mercenary) I believe working in the military narrows your civilian life opportunities.

    I was the first male in my family to choose law-school over boot camp. With a few exceptions (one being my father, my grandfather, and a few others) the vast majority of ex-military people I’ve known circa the late 20th and early 21st century are working at low salary dead end jobs, or low wage hourly loser type jobs, such as driving a tow truck or delivering pizza.

    In general the military does not prepare people for civilian life. This is a total lie that’s fed to young adults who join the military at 18-21 years old because they “don’t know what else to do” or need to “get out of my parents house”. The vast majority of young adults enter the military do so because they feel they have no other options in life.

    If these statements offend anyone, I really don’t care.

  107. CassMan says:

    Michael,

    I am Canadian and would enjoy the change in climate that LA offers, but probably not the entitled women out on the club scene (or maybe I would, I certainly take a new attitude towards it these days). Next time I am down that way you have yourself a wingman, the Canadian angle will be in play : )

    As for LTR > Marriage > Children, at 32 this is a question I am asking myself as well. I have had a close female friend approach me about being a legally non-responsible sperm donor for her. This woman understands the biological differences in Men and Women and for the most part we agree on life and society in general, where it is going and why the state of the Family Unit has decayed to where it is now. She does not want a Father and would rather raise the child on her own unless I decided I wanted a role in it. All of this would be legally identified beforehand as a contract to where I would have no legal / financial responsibility to the child. Basically, she wants my genes and doesn’t want to go through the traditional process of meeting a man / dating the man / engagement / marriage / children.

    She does not want to get married at all, as I said she and I see eye to eye on many of the Red Pill truths of this World. For me, if everything was ironclad, legally laid out and fully understand that there was no responsibility of any kind under any conditions, I would consider this as an option if I felt I needed to have a child. Most women I know are not like this girl, so this isn’t an option for many Men, at least yet. No co-habitation, nothing. My responsibility begins and ends with sperm donation in this case.

    You could marry a Women from a country that has more traditional values when it comes to Marriage and gender relations, specifically in the East. That is another option which comes with its own unique set of pitfalls. Or, you could roll the dice and enter into the Marriage 2.0 Sweepstakes.

    Personally, I am considering her offer. She is a very responsible, well rounded person who will make a great, not good, Mother. In a perfect world I would be having a child with the woman I am madly in love with, want to fuck every 30 minutes and who can bring me to tears of laughter, joy and hell, even a little Alpha rage once in a while.

    I’ll let all you guys know if she shows up.

  108. Brendan says:

    And if you can’t get into a top school, then go to the cheapest one you can find and well and truly excel at it. I couldn’t get into any top tier schools despite near perfect ACTs (long story) so I went to a university no ones ever heard of (still accredited though, no U of Phoenix weirdness), absolutely slaughtered my classes, networked like crazy,contributed to open sourced projects, started freelancing, etc and I’m still making ~100k just shy of 30 with a STEM degree with like 2k left in student loan debt.

    If you truly own your education it doesn’t seem to matter much where you go, though I’ll admit a big name school will open doors that weren’t available to me no matter what I did. I graduated in 05 though nd I haven’t really kept up on how much costs have increased at the cheapest schools.

    Agreed 100%.

  109. CassMan says:

    Another valuable piece of information I eventually learned on my own and that is well known in the PUA community is the power of Social Proof. I cannot emphasize enough how true and thus important Social Proof is to the success of Men with Women.

    I have seen virtual parasites pull solid 8′s into bed for a quick romp just off of Social Proof and literally, nothing else. Now, this is not easy to pull off and the environmental conditions must all be in place. It happens, despite the fickle nature of Women, I have seen it happen.

    I will always keep a few attractive and generally submissive Women around in my life simply for the benefit of Social Proof. Even when bedding Women isn’t a priority for me, Social Proof is. I’ve gotten farther ahead in the boardroom as well as the bedroom from Social Proof. It is truly powerful.

    It works with both sexes however the level of potency with Women is off the charts. If you have any Game to bring to the table + the aid of some strong social proof, you should be fine with most Women, as they instinctively crave and require this before many of them will be open to constructive banter / flirting and comfort building.

    Working for one of the largest Tech companies in NA at a high level, I saw the power social proof and image have on the opposite sex. To be sure, If I was able to do the following at a social event:

    1. Come with a group of Men + Women or even just a single gal (harder to pull off as the impression you work against from the outset is she’s your date and you are taken)

    2. Dressed well or even stood out (I will peacock, I love doing it and the more unnatural it feels for you as a dude the more you will benefit from it if you can commit to trying it and believing in yourself)

    3. Discuss my career (they see the $$$$’s piling up as I talk) + mix in my diverse interests, hobbies and future goals, etc.

    I got laid, unless I didn’t care to. Every time I would have the option available to me, even when I was off ‘my game’ which isn’t much, I also had a few Women who made it very clear they were interested in me going forward, regardless of their current relationship status. The intoxicating mix of seeing a good looking, confident Man walk into a room full of people with another woman, career success, independent lifestyle and future earning $$$ power was often enough to even get married women willing to cheat at my whim.

    If these Women that are now ‘happily’ married are willing to fuck me after knowing me a few hours in a social setting simply because I make more than their husband or can be seen in public with other woman than her….

    Call me crazy but even if I wanted to get married, just seeing the opportunities Women give to me for providing so little up front would clue me into where my investments in time should go, (I could be making this shit up to them about my job, my hobbies, I haven’t proven a damn thing to them, the only thing solid at this point is they know my looks are real). They don’t care, it’s what they want RIGHT NOW and how they feel RIGHT NOW, and I have provided that to them or at least created the illusion of it.

    I won’t fuck other Men’s wives, but could I ever run up a score that would make you think it was Monday Night Football. If the husbands only knew…..

  110. an observer says:

    Michael,

    Captain Capitalisms book ‘Worthless’ is a good summary on how to pick a college major. I bought it for my nephew who has recently finished high school.

    It advocates joining the military, about the only thing i disagree with in the book. If my nephew brings up the issue, i will do what i can to explain clearly why i think miltary service is a bad idea.

  111. Pingback: Lightning Round -2012/12/19 « Free Northerner

  112. an observer says:

    On schooling and getting jobs…

    State sponsored education was prussian inspired and is now accepted unquestioned. Creativity can easily be stymied by forcefeeding indoctrination. Misinformation imparted. Agendas trialled.

    Extended schooling delays the growing up process. The contemporary adult never truly matures byt remains dependant on the state, whixpch stands ready with its army of hobgoblins, ready to scare them into a perpetual childhood.

    http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16c.htm

  113. CedarFever says:

    I don’t agree with this. With the exception of a few career areas (law enforcement, government worker, private mercenary) I believe working in the military narrows your civilian life opportunities

    Michael – you believe wrongly, then. I encourage you to investigate the issue and return with knowledge, not belief.

    Observer – don’t allow your biases to limit your nephew’s future.

  114. Metanoia says:

    @CassMan

    I am generally in the same position as you. Tall, good-looking, and a family background that indicates social status, connections and $$$, but in my late 20s.

    I am also thinking that finding that right girl is impossible in this day and age and was intrigued by the offer from your friend as a sperm donor… One of my father’s younger employees, who was a tall, good-looking man got the same proposal at the age of 30 from a 30-year-old female friend and he went along and did it… He is married with a family of his own interestingly enough.

    I am thinking I would ideally like to leave my genetic imprint in a similar way.. I like good-looking girls and they like me, but I cannot bear the thought of marrying, raising children and growing old with a woman who has slept with other men, so I am stuck in the ONS/STR route and see marriage a bleak possibility… Take it as a compliment, it is probably the nicest thing that can be said to a man in the 21st century.

    I am just worried about the legal ramifications, and how one way or another, at some point down the road, you could be held financially liable for this.. I was just reading recently an article about a gay man who became a sperm donor to a lesbian couple whom he was good friends with, and they still managed to impose legal and financial liability for the offspring. This would be the only drawback if you respect/trust the woman enough to be a ‘great’ mother as you said.

    Please keep us up-to-date and do your research with a lawyer!!! Best of luck!

  115. CassMan says:

    Metanoia,

    You raise possibly the most important point in my decision making process: “What happens if five years down the line the law changes in such a way that I am now suddenly responsible??”

    Your worry is my worst nightmare, period. I believe the only way to truly be at peace with my situation is to first fully understand the current law, the direction it is going in and get the opinions of some people in the field that I trust. Beyond doing my due diligence regarding the legal side, my other point of focus would be the Woman herself. My girl has character, which I have time tested. This doesn’t mean she won’t turn crazy on me one day, it could happen (sigh..). What it does mean is that I will pick a Woman that I trust inside and out over a Woman that is physically attractive but a shitty person (and Mother). I would hope that in the event that law changed and was able to be applied to me and the child, the Mother would be reasonable and continue to respect the core reasons we both took that path in the first place, to avoid these constraints that neither of us support.

    Beyond taking those two precautions I do not see what else that a Man can realistically do to protect himself. This does seem like a good option if all of my extensive research checks out. I have not delved too far down the legal responsibility path, she has and we have talked about it. I will be doing my own research on this for myself which she knows and respects. I would like to have a child, I feel I have a lot to offer as a Father, especially going into this Brave New World.

    One thing is for sure, this option is on the rise in Canada. I am hearing examples of Men and Women ages 25-45 opting out of Marriage and deciding to raise a child apart. In many cases these family units operate in a much healthier fashion than many of my friends traditional ‘under one roof’ family units. This is partly out of the freedom both parents enjoy, and a mutual understanding of what each partner wants out of the endeavour well before any decision is made. Said another way, there are no mistakes or unwanted children in this scenario. Nor is there situations where the Mother and Father realize they really aren’t meant for each other and blow family up several years in.

    The first time I heard an example of a Woman and a Man going this route opposed to having a child in wedlock, I raised an eyebrow. Is this really a healthy alternative to a loving family unit where Mom and Dad live together and raise Junior? Again, in my perfect world scenario above, this falls short by a mile. The catch is, that perfect world of mine doesn’t exist for most of us, and for the few that it does, there is often an expiry date attached. The reality we are going to wake up to tomorrow is one where many Mom’s are single and raising the child on their own with assistance from the state, and if not the Mother than by some virtue the Father is taking care of things on his own. Or there is a revolving door of new Men or Women coming into the child’s life as the single parent tries to cope. Or there is infidelity running rampant and the parents stay together out of pure love of the child and live otherwise unhappy lives until something ‘gives’.

    Or, you could fall in love, get married, get her pregnant 3x over, she never, ever strays and you live happily ever after. All of these are possible outcomes that I have witnessed. I’ll continue to watch what the world reveals to me with my own two eyes, then make the best decision based upon that and that alone.

    I will update you Gentlemen on how this situation plays out as I feel like I am closing in on a decision, even if the actual event does not take place right away.

  116. imnobody says:

    @Cassman

    I’d like to be able to express in a broken English that you are about to take the worst decision in your life. Even if you are able to make a contract to be free of responsibilities with this child, any judge can disregard this contract “in the best interest of the child”. Your contract will end up being null and void. You can read the book “Taken into Custody”..

    About your female friend, she means it when she says she doesn’t want your money or your responsibility. But you won’t imagine how quickly women change when they need help with a kid. I remember a documentary on TV about a woman who decided to have a kid with the help of a sperm bank during the sixties. In fact, there was footage of this woman and she said back then: “I don’t need a man to have a kid. I want to do it alone. I don’t need anyone else”. Fast forward twenty years, the rules about anonymity in sperm donation had been relaxed. This woman realized that the sperm donor of her child, who was a student back then, is now a wealthy man. She sued the man to have “a bit of help”. She is now rationalizing her decision: “If he is a wealthy man, he can help us now. We need help”. The hamster is powerful.

    In short, you are under the delusion that you can enforce a contract that keeps you from having responsibility for this child. You cannot. If you can’t, why not having a normal family? The child will benefit to have a normal family.

    I understand that you don’t want to expat (as I did) and you want to build a family. I understand that this is not easy in America in the current circumstances to find a worthy woman. But it’s not impossible. You are still young: you have lots of time. There’s no reason to hurry and make a decision that you could regret for the rest of your life.

  117. Hisoj says:

    there is no such thing as a “peter pan manboy.” it’s just a term that bitter lonely women use in an attempt to shame all men from enjoying the things all men enjoy. peace, quiet, and solitude while engaging in any number of enjoyable activities that don’t involve a soul sucking hole.

  118. an observer says:

    CedarFever,

    My view on the military is shaped from experience, not books. But the nephew is highly unlikely to bother a recruiter, anytime soon.

  119. greyghost says:

    @Cassman
    Don’t let your ego stab you in the ass being stupid. If you want to have a child you need to get you a surrogate. Any deal made with a woman that is a deal only a woman can make is null and void. Women just as minors can not and will not be held to any contract.

  120. greenlander says:

    Beyond taking those two precautions I do not see what else that a Man can realistically do to protect himself.

    A man can expatriate. Unless you’ve committed a very serious crime and now live in a country that has an extradition treaty with the country that you committed it in, you can change the rules just by stepping across the border.

    Obviously, you can’t do that if you’re some cubicle drone. But if you’re independent and make your living off your reputation and skills over the internet, you can take your income wherever you want. There is a whole big world of legal residency and second passports if you can free yourself from the matrix.

    Once you leave the Western world, you start to see that the feminist BS that permeates the anglosphere doesn’t exist in most of the world. In most of the world, if you’re a man with some skills and a decent independent income, it’s YOU who writes the rules in life, not the feminist matrix.

    Getting to the point where you can get an independent income and expatriate is a big hurdle. But it’s doable if you have your act together. I got my independent income and I expatriated. And every day I am 100% thankful not to be immersed in feminist BS.

    It’s not for everyone, apparently. But I did it and I’m satisfied with my decision. But I busted my ass to get to this point: I think most guys aren’t up to the challenge.

    And that’s how *I* protect myself. If I build a family here, I’m 100% free from the United States and its misandric legal system.

  121. Mykel Scott says:

    Why be in a rush to pay of crushing debt , hers and yours.
    Work 82 hours a week and get oral once a year at christmas, maybe.
    Then watch her claim you are unavailable , demanding , distant and waltz off with 80 % of your net worth.
    Hook up with some slacker cracker who she orals every day in your bed in the home you are paying for.

    Screw that , work 30 hours a week , slinging warmed up dog piss at morons over the counter , and screw their wives while they are off slaving in a prisonized cubicle ).

  122. David J. says:

    @Chris and @ Hurting: I’m with you both. 52, 4 kids (2 teens still at home, including a 16-year old son who lives with me), frivorced last year after 29+ years. Not even going to date until the 16-year old sophomore graduates high school; he doesn’t need any more complications. Preceding the divorce, my ex consistently said that she knew she was going to live alone for the rest of her life. One week after the divorce was final, she was dating online. 3 weeks after that she “met” the One. They “dated” online until meeting in person 2.5 months later, then dated in person every other weekend (because he lives 400 miles away). 3 months later they were engaged. 6 months later they were married. He is already twice-divorced. Two days after Christmas she will be moving, taking my daughter with her. I give her new marriage somewhere between 6 months and two years. I cannot begin to understand the rush to remarry, especially despite numerous red flags, to further disrupt her relationship with our 3 boys, and to detract from my relationship and time with my daughter. Pure, unadulterated selfishness resulting from abject fear of a situation (singleness) that she insisted on creating herself. It sure seems from the anecdotal evidence I see around me and on the web that this is not just individual behavior (the woman bailing and rushing into remarriage, the man being willing to put the kids first and delay new relationships), but is also gender-characteristic behavior.

  123. greyghost says:

    greenlander
    I think you can really give a lot with how you found a skill set the host country could use. It would be more of a spearhead type article but it would be really interesting to know. Also the language issues and how you got around that.

  124. Foreign “guest workers” at places like fast food joints aren’t just about cheap labor. Corporations also like them because they’re only allowed to work for the company that got them the permit. Unlike an American teenager, they can’t quit and go get a job at a place down the street if the boss treats them like crap. It’s indentured servitude, basically. Don’t buy the “jobs Americans won’t do” lie.

    I might partially fit into this PPMB category, though not intentionally. I’ve always wanted to be married and still do. But after numerous friend-zonings and two divorces and finally discovering the red pill, I just don’t have much enthusiasm for the chase. I also don’t make a lot of money — not nearly as much as I could make if I focused my talents on one area and got a corporate job in it. I have approximately three businesses: one is mostly charity, though it leads to some return favors; another almost breaks even, though it could be mildly profitable in a few years; and the third pays the bills. If it sounds like I work hard, I don’t. I work enough to stay afloat, and spend time doing things I’m interesting in, like reading blogs and doing puzzles.

    When I think about finding a wife, I mostly just get tired. But to the extent that I’m keeping an eye out, I’m mostly looking at the ones 15+ years younger than me (about 23-28). Not because there aren’t attractive women in their 30s, but because they’re seriously damaged. Whether they damaged themselves or were damaged by feminists and/or bad boys isn’t really the point — the point is they’re damaged and unable to understand a relationship, let alone have one. Most seem incapable of being feminine, let alone submissive, and the closest they come to happiness is a sort of edgy glee.

    So if I’m going to look for a wife, and I know decent ones are extremely rare at any age, why not go for the ideal: one young enough not to have been through the marriage-kids-divorce-carousel-plump-up-diet-down wringer yet? Are the odds of meeting her really that much worse than the odds of meeting that elusive sane, fit 35-year-old? Probably not — maybe even better. Of course, if I snag one, people are going to assume I’m going through a mid-life crisis and trying to relive my youth or something.

    So I sit here with my experience and game knowledge, a spider in his web, waiting for 25-year-old hotties to walk in, ready to chat them up if they do. For anything more proactive than that, I just don’t have the energy.

  125. greenlander says:

    [greenlander,] I think you can really give a lot with how you found a skill set the host country could use. It would be more of a spearhead type article but it would be really interesting to know. Also the language issues and how you got around that.

    I traveled a lot in my twenties and early thirties, and it became clear to me that most countries in the world aren’t at all like the anglosphere. The anglosphere (and to a lesser degree, western europe in general), but that’s only a small part of the world. Even before I was done swallowing the red pill, it was clear to me that I needed to get out.

    So, I started to make my plan. I became fluent in Russian by studying several hours a week over a course of several years. I developed my own side business that I could do over the internet and that could support me. And when it was clear it was solid and enough to support me, I quit my job and got in a plane. I left this April, and my hope is that I never have to return.

    My clients are in the western world. I could make a living with my skill set in Russia, but the pay and work conditions are so awful that I wouldn’t do unless I have to.

    My particular specialty is software manufacturing diagnostics for production lines of high-tech products (like mobile phones). I look at production data and analyze it to find the source of production fallout, and then write code and recommend plans to isolate and fix the root causes. I’m well-known in my narrow field.

    Obviously, that’s not a GENERAL path for everyone: I carved it out based on my skill set. Every man will have to find his own path. There are lots of blogs on the internet about how to get a location-independent income. Some guys write software, some write iphone apps, some write articles for magazines, some do consulting, some write books, whatever. The path is different for every man.

    It’s not an easy path. The world doesn’t lead you there. You have to carve it out for yourself. If you’re a real man, then figure out what your particular passion and talent is, figure out how to sell it, and then carve out your path in the world and take it for yourself. Sitting in your sanitized cubicle in corporate America won’t show you the way.

    Meanwhile, I’m trying restrain my own power in this adjusted dating market. I usually try to date girls from 24-28, but I met this one girl who is only 20 and she’s just lovely and sweet… I’m taking her to the opera on Saturday, where I paid just 800 roubles ($25) each for two front-row tickets to the opera… my God, it’s a different world here…

  126. greenlander says:

    As an aside, I’ve considered writing for The Spearhead, and I’ve even spoken to Bill Price on the phone. When I was organizing my departure from the United States, I even considered starting my own blog.

    Unfortunately, I’ve sort of lost interest in it. I feel like I have something to say, but I’m no longer motivated enough to write about it on any kind of regular schedule. I’m too busy with my own life now. I’m enjoying real life in a feminist-free niche that I carved out by sheer determination.

  127. Martian Bachelor says:

    FTR, those under the age of about 35-40 may not realize that this is Peter Pans – The Rerun. Or episode deux.

    The book The Peter Pan Syndrome was a bestseller twenty-five years ago. There were magazine cover stories, newspaper pieces, humorous TV fluff pieces, talk show segments – the whole shebang.

    I don’t have access to the sort of library where all the original source material could be found, but it would be interesting to compare then vs. now to see if anything substantive has changed.

    My recollection could be off, but the only notable thing I can think of is that the crowd now resurrecting the issue are the so-con-y types. They’re now about where the Jane Fonda generation of pop feministas were a generation ago.

    That author of that FauxNews dreck is just a textbook example of a dishonest whore, as described in Sexploytation. That’s her dating/sexual ethics. PPMB’s are simply those who are savvy enough to avoid getting ripped off by the hoards of ‘em.

  128. Anonymous age 70 says:

    So, what is the problem with being Peter Pan? Every day, he wakes after a good night’s sleep, has a good breakfast from the jungles of Never Never land.

    Then, he and the Lost Boys go out to fight with Indians and Pirates. In the afternoon, victorious as always, he returns, a bit scratched but triumphant.

    Then, Tinker Belle says, “Peter, come with me to the arbor by the pool and I will make you feel all better.”

  129. dragnet says:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335996/newtown-answers-nro-symposium

    charlotte allen thinks some humans should be bullet fodder for other humans because they have penises—and writes about it with the breezy air of entitlement we’ve come to expect from (conservative) feminists.

    traditional obligations for men? yes please. traditional obligations for women? MISOGYNY!!!

  130. deti says:

    dragnet:

    Allen’s piece was appalling. She suggests that male teachers or a male janitor should have been present to stop the shootings. She even suggests that some of the “huskier 12-year old boys” at this K-6 school should have thrown themselves in harm’s way for grown women.

    this is incredible. A female writer at a conservative publication demanding that a group of unarmed and untrained 12 year old boys could have (and should have) intervened.

    Or… we could arm the teachers. We could allow concealed carry. We could require some teachers who are willing to do so to go through a training course and carry concealed on premises.

  131. Anonymous age 70 says:

    Dragnet, that woman, Charlotte Allen, is one sick fiend. It is the women who have demanded no one at school shall have a gun, because guns ‘skeer’ dearies. Yet, they assume male persons as young as 12 should jump into gun fire to save them. After all, men any age have no value of their own; they exist only to die for dearies.

    You heard it here first. If you want to jump into gun fire to save a woman who is special to you, that is your right. But, at the same time, I also grant you permission to dive out the back window and run for your life. Let the people who demanded you be unarmed deal with the gunfire.

  132. tweell says:

    Ms. Allen did point out one interesting fact – there was not one male adult at the school. Men have all but been eliminated as teachers and principals; public school is now a woman’s bailiwick. My father was a teacher, and by the time he retired, there was only one other male teacher at his middle school (also a science teacher). I remember him complaining about this: he was frequently castigated by the woman principal for his old-fashioned policies on classroom behavior. At the same time, he was called upon to deal with boys who were unruly in other (female) teacher’s classrooms. A 65 year old man, who needed two canes to get around, got compliance and respect from the most troubled student.

    Now the women talk about posting police at schools. Talk about a punishment assignment! You can be sure that policeman will be spending a lot of time enforcing the women’s will, no matter how petty.

  133. Soullite says:

    LoL, it’s almost like we had a major economic crash and never really recovered or something…

    Seriously, some of you folks are downright crazy. Why don’t young people have jobs? Because there are no jobs. This country hasn’t even been treading water for the last five years — we’ve been doggy paddling just to keep from sinking further under it. Most of the drops in the unemployment rate we’ve seen have been people dropping out. The labor participation rate is pathetic. People in their twenties today are going suffer a lifetimes earning decrease you couldn’t imagine.

    What decade have you been living in, the 90′s? I don’t know if I should laugh at you all or weep at the oblivious state you’re in.

  134. Hurting says:

    @ David J

    29 years? That sucks. You have my condolences, bro’. I made it 18, although I suppose even some in the manosphere may not totally concede that mine was truly a frivorce. Although I never, ever cheated on her (I really distanced myself from any remote temptation) and never laid a hand on her, we had some very heated arguments. Nonetheless I still contend that her cure for the situation was far worse than the disease for three (my sons and myself) of the four people directly affected, and there is a very good chance that it will end very badly for her as well (she’s already heading for bankruptcy despite the confiscatory level of child support (for one kid who spends at least have of his time with me) and alimony). I literally begged her on bent knee not to do this, but she was having none of it.

    I can’t comment as to the validity of your observation that women are apt to rush into the next relationship up to and and including marriage, but it sounds reasonable if you buy the idea that the divorce filer has already mourned the loss of the marriage (sorry for the sappy, modernist language), but there is, I think some truth to the idea, even if, regardless of timing, the filer, by definition, likely values the marriage far less in the first place. The vast majority of divorce filers are women (who valued the marriage less period and/or were adjusting to post-divorce life mentally prior to filing). At least part of that adjustment timng differential in many cases I suspect involves the testing of the waters with new suitors perhaps even before the divorce is filed and even more often between the filing and the decree. By the time the decree is issued the filer (far more often than not the woman) has already mentally checked out and may already have started checking in elsewhere. As someone else her analogized, a woman is like a monkey in that she won’t let go of one branch till she has another in hand. Throughout my marriage and divorce, I never could really figure out if my wife was screwing around on me or just didn’t enjoy my company (she truly did seem to enjoy being alone way more than someone who should have signed up for marriage).

    It also can’t be ignored that even if a divorcing couple were equally distraught over the emotional/spiritual loss inherent in the divorce (and I don’t believe this at all – see above), the pragmatic effects, specifically those related to wealth and earnings destruction, are visited far more heavily upon men. Men therefore are doubly cautious and rightly so about entering new ventures.

    After all that I would like to say that the Peter Pan life sounds great right about now. I’d love to take on a less stressful job even for far less pay so as to be able to pursue my hobbies and spend time with church, friends and family. What I have is the ‘far less pay’ part (my effective tax rate just from alimony, child support and private school tuition is right around 40%; add in actual taxes and it gets to around 62%).

  135. Mark Minter says:

    Cassman,

    I know I am too far down on this comment list to make difference here.

    But your comment should cast in stone/stainless steel/platinum, whatever material will never corrode. I can prattle on with tons of words and not say the absolute truth contained in your comment. To me it is not opinion like so much of mine, but rather it is fact contained in real life narrative.

    I think this link below is pretty mandatory reading. It is from Roosh and it is his analysis of why smart phones are killing women’s ability to love. I know Dalrock generally pre-warns some of his readers about more mainstream manosphere blogs. But this one is fairly “G” rated.

    http://www.rooshv.com/women-who-own-iphones-lose-the-ability-to-love

    It re-iterates what Cassman said. Women are bereft in options due to modern technology. He might have said that they mistake options with real commitment. If he didn’t say it then I will.

    I want to say that I have really enjoyed reading these comments today. The thing that most affects is the ones from the young men.

    It’s one thing to be alone at my age, 57, and have my beliefs forged after repeated experiences with women and to be able to enjoy solitude because I can compare it to the unhappy state of being in marriage and the crap of dating.

    But I wonder if young men feel an angst at enforced solitude, regret coupled with relief over having to choose to live a life without love. I remember being in the Marines as an 18-22 just pining to be in love. There were no women. I spent a good chunk of it overseas and as a young Marine in the 70s, you were written off by women. But I had that discharge date to look forward to when I could be a person again and be eligible to fall in love and women would want me. I felt such a sense of loneliness during that time that I was just more or less, written off by women, and structurally ineligible to be loved.

    I would hope young men come back to this site and talk of what they feel.

  136. Bufface says:

    @Mark Minter.

    Very true about the smart phone issue.

    I changed my cell number 2 years ago, and the person who had the number before me was apparently an attractive young woman who had herself changed to a different number.

    For the first few months after getting my number, I was bombarded with all sorts of crazy texts from an untold number of young men constantly asking what she was up to that night and if she was available.

    The texts often accompanied penis pictures or men with ripped bodies advertising their muscles or six pack abs.

    It took forever to keep telling them that they had the wrong number.

    I could hear the disappointment in their voices when my masculine voice answered the phone (they thinking she was already with another man).

  137. Bufface says:

    @Mark Minter (again)

    To you comment about what young men feel about forced solitude.

    I’m absolutely furious about it in many ways beyond lack of sex and companionship. I’m early 30s BTW.

    My parents have been happily married for 35 years.

    My paternal grandparents were married for 50 years before my grandfather died.

    My Maternal grandparents were married for 65 years before my grandmother died, this set of grandparents were childhood friends who played together on the schoolyard from the time they were 5 years old. They had 8 children who have all stayed married to their first spouses. I have very fond memories of large family gatherings every Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other holidays.

    I pains me tremendously that I will never be able to have a family of my own like that.

    A solitary life that is merely free of responsibility can be rather hollow in comparison to the true happiness that I have personally witnessed and experienced within my own kinfolk.

    Some days it absolutely terrifies me what my life is going to be like as an old man.

    None of my grandparents died quickly, in all cases it was a gradual deterioration over months or years.

    However, their final months (or years) was made possible by the vigilance and care from their children.

    Their will be no children to look after me, nor will their be a social safety net.

    I will be a helpless old man alone in a country that has been taught to hate me.

  138. taterearl says:

    @Bufface…there is no need to worry about being alone or what will happen if you are a helpless old man. Many of the greatest saints and prophets in history had the cross of being alone.

    http://www.unveiling.org/Articles/alone.htm

    I’ve come to terms that I may have to be mostly alone in this world…but I don’t add on the pain of worry on top of it.

  139. greyghost says:

    I know this is the truth for this generation of men and is why I am an MRA because I and others like me have a 6 year old son.

    “I will be a helpless old man alone in a country that has been taught to hate me.”
    One of the things I tell young men Is that they will never live in a world with out hatred for you as a man (misandry). Maybe my son as an old man will see things have changed for young men in his life time. Reguardless of the goodies I may receive it is something I have to do to beat the beast.

  140. Brendan says:

    Meanwhile, gleeful editorials about being able to “dodge the wall”, biologically, through technology: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/20/opinion/prasad-reproduction-sex/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7.

    The reality is that the world is changing very quickly. The Peter Pan thing is because there are structural changes that make it hard for lower skilled young people to find well-paying jobs — not jobs that make them rich, obviously, but jobs that can be the basis for a normal family life. That’s becoming more and more the exclusive property of highly-educated knowledge workers, and of course that’s always going to be a sliver of the population as a whole (an economic and educational policy that is oriented around making everyone a knowledge worker simply won’t work on a large scale population). The question will soon become: what do we do with everyone else, or, perhaps, what is everyone else going to do to us (“us” meaning the people who are actually forming families and doing reasonably well in this difficult climate).

    The male/female sex issues on this are secondary, really. Family formation isn’t happening not because men are afraid/reluctant to marry, it’s because outside of the knowledge worker set (and a handful of lower skilled yet well paying jobs like the trades), there isn’t enough money to justify it, and no real prospect of there being enough money moving forward, either. This impedes family formation, which then impedes personal advancement in the next generation, and it begins to perpetuate. We have seen this in the underclass in the US over the past few decades already — the difference now is that it is spreading “upward” into the lower middle and, in some places, the middle middle.

    The upper middle has survived fairly well, in relative terms, until now, because that is the base of knowledge workers. Of course, in the years ahead, due to continued educational skew on a sex basis, we’re going to see family formation impacted here, too, albeit for a different reason — the musical chairs issue, which will see a large number of highly educated women simply not having anything close to an equal number of highly educated men to choose as mates. That’s going to start depressing family formation in this group, and we haven’t seen the brunt of that yet statistically because a lot of the folks now in their 30s and 40s went to school when there wasn’t such an extreme skew. We will start to see the skew effect about now (people who are around 30 will have attended college during a fairly significant skew, with the impact getting stronger each year down from 30) and in the years ahead.

    So likely there will be more Peter Pans of both sexes in the years ahead in the middle middle and below, with marriage rates decreasing accordingly there, and a smaller but significant depression on marriage rates in the upper middle as well — each for different reasons.

  141. Arual says:

    I can’t find any other way to contact you, Dalrock, so I’m just posting it here (off topic, I’m afraid):

    This blogger has been collecting and posting people’s anonymous secrets, and I was struck by how many women wrote in that they never got over their highschool boyfriends even though they are married to someone else. There are also plenty of unhappy housewives who apparently hate their children and/or husbands. This obviously isn’t statistical like most of your work, but they do make for interesting anecdotes about the starkly different nature of women when it comes to first loves, among other things.

    http://www.danoah.com/2012/12/pulled-from-the-truth-box-2.html

  142. CassMan says:

    imnobody + greyghost:

    Thank you both for sharing your views on this topic, it is very important to me as a Man to make the right decision and for me, part of that is hashing out some of the more viable options with like minded Men. I have started to look more into the surrogate option and in Canada, it looks damn good. As a Man I can have my a Woman I know be the surrogate or I can pay a Woman to act as ‘the vessel’ and get the same end result.

    The net result would be I would have a child that is truly mine (biologically and legally) with no other encumbrances. There will be no risk of the Mother having a change of heart and causing future trouble for the Child and I. The costs involved to get this off the ground are very sane, I like it.

    Is there another Man here that has any experience in this area or plans to in the future? I would love to hear some feedback on surrogates, especially as an option for Men. I did notice that on the Canadian surrogate sites, they had two options:

    1. Mom looking to raise a child on her own

    2. Mom and Dad looking to raise a child

    There was no 3rd option “CassMan looking to raise a child on his own”. While they did mention that in the fine print, deeply entrenched inside of the site that a Man could use his sperm and a donor egg to raise a child on his own, it was clearly not advertised as such. Go figure.

  143. CassMan says:

    Mr. Mark Minter,

    It was not by chance that I referenced you as one of the valuable contributors to The Cause in an earlier post above. You have a gift in your ability to weave a lifetime of experiences into constructive, thought provoking commentary on one of the most important topics to Men (and arguably Women) today. It is a good thing for all of us, including yourself, that you have realized this gift and have made the conscious effort to be a part of this.

    Thank you for taking the time out of your day to impart some wisdom unto the Manosphere. I speak for all of us when I say it is greatly appreciated Mark.

  144. CassMan says:

    It would be foolish not to mention that the entire reason I was able to come here and be part of this is you, Dalrock. I do not know where you Men come from (CH, Rollo and the like) but God Damnit, have you ever been needed. Now, more than ever.

    I see this everywhere, even when I watch popular media (TV), many of the NA sitcoms portray the leading Male / Husband as a happy go lucky dolt, whereas the Woman generally is cast in a role of sensibility and reason. These subtitles in advertising and movies / shows does not escape all of us on a conscious level. It is part of the mindset shift that is well under way.

    “In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” – George Orwell

  145. whatever says:

    Brendan:

    The upper middle has survived fairly well, in relative terms, until now, because that is the base of knowledge workers.

    So lawyers are “knowledge workers”? I thought they were thieves and enforcers, but heh, tell yourself any stupid lie you want. Real “knowledge workers” are hated by your lawyer buddies, and your well-born management buddies a lot because they can’t pay them slave wages. Sends you buddies into fits of rage it does.

  146. UnicornHunter says:

    @Anon70

    “You heard it here first. If you want to jump into gun fire to save a woman who is special to you, that is your right. But, at the same time, I also grant you permission to dive out the back window and run for your life. Let the people who demanded you be unarmed deal with the gunfire.”

    That’s what I told my boy. Smash out the window and run away. Of course, that’s what I’m going to tell my girls too.

  147. The Right Hon. Msgr. Fred Flange says:

    To CassMan and those thinking of becoming sperm donors: be very very very careful before going through with that.

    I’m sorry, did I say be very very very careful? I meant to say, be very very very careful.

    I don’t care what legal agreement you sign, absolving you of all sin. Because my default advice is, the courts won’t care either. If she changes her mind and wants support, a court will give it to her. If you’re involved and your name is not on the birth certificate, and she wants to end your involvement, a court will give it to her. The only question will be: is it biologically your kid? You’re potentially on the hook. Because the welfare of the kid comes first, and fuck you and your contract. Maybe you can get lucky, a court will see it your way, enforce the deal as written, and let you go. But do you really want to ever have the problem?

    The scariest version of this was in an O Magazine piece on women who had sperm-donated autistic sons, did some research and all found they had gone to the same sperm bank, and used the same donor, whose sperm turned out to show a marker for autism, which they only discovered after doing a lot of research. Now the women decided not to try to learn his identity to sue him — or the sperm bank — but they could have. And maybe they could have forced open their donor records and learned who this guy was, then go after him – to support all 25 of these kids he knew nothing about beyond wanking into a cup for money years earlier.

  148. UnicornHunter says:

    Early experiments with mice have shown that both sperm and eggs can be generated from the stem cells of males, and eggs from that of females, and that they can be fertilized to produce viable young.

    From the linked to CNN article. SO, does that mean in the future women will be irrelevant?

  149. Mark Minter wrote: “But I wonder if young men feel an angst at enforced solitude, regret coupled with relief over having to choose to live a life without love. I remember being 18-22 just pining to be in love.”

    I can definitely relate to that. I would sure like to have a loving relationship with a woman just once, much more than to have wealth or fame or anything like that. My #1 wish in life is to have children and give them a better life than I’ve had and that will probably never happen. Maybe you can’t truly miss what you’ve never had, but I’ve seen other people have it and it looks alright to me. If I could make it happen but just didn’t think any women I knew were worth it that would be one thing, but beginning in my teen years I’ve felt like a legless man watching a track meet.

    Like Bufface said, “I pains me tremendously that I will never be able to have a family of my own like that.” No Christmases with grandkids huddled around the tree, no progeny to care for me when I’m old. Some “patriarchy” this is!

  150. sally1137 says:

    An interesting addition to the gaming world is being developed…virtual sex.
    http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/17/company-developing-fully-immersive-virtual-reality-sex-game/?intcmp=obnetwork

    Brings a whole new meaning to the term First Person Shooter. Sorry, couldn’t resist. :)

  151. Choking on red pills says:

    Learnt a new phrase today: Celibate up!

    For the blokes out there thinking about moving to East Asia, consider the laws of the lands before you do so. Our oriental hamsters are just a few steps behind their western sisters. Caucasian blokes may still be novelty and source of pride but the usual antics apply.

  152. Mark Minter says:

    Dalrock,

    Can we focus on this theme for a bit? A lot of my comments are fire breathing shun women burn it down revolution pieces.

    Can maybe you post something that says like “Open mike about what your feeling about the reality of a life without women. Answer from the heart. And please be respectful that is the Dalrock blog and a Christian readership”

    Possible?

  153. infowarrior1 says:

    @sally1137

    I think the next big trend after virtual reality is sexbots.

  154. Looking Glass says:

    The Japanese are probably 15 or so years away from a fully functional sexbot. Given the fact the normal Japanese male might be lucky to classify as a Delta here in the States, it’s really not a surprise.

    The saddest part? Given them 2-3 years and sharing sexbot programming, and they’ll probably get better sex than the rest of the men on the planet.

  155. judgybitch says:

    “A guy will eagerly make a committment to something he is convinced is of genuine value to him.”

    This! In my experience, men will happily get married to the RIGHT woman. I know two single guys (an engineer and an accountant) who would both LOVE to be married and have children, but they’re still in their 30s and women haven’t hit panic mode yet.

    Seriously, the women these guys date leave me shaking my head. Ladies don’t seem to understand men at all. Not one little bit, nor do they care. And by the time they DO care, it will probably be too late.

    I’d stay single, too.

  156. Bobby says:

    CassMan, a Canadian man had a son by an Indian surrogte. The egg came from a donor of his choosing.

    PPMB:
    Don’t grow old due to stress from incessant nagging and keeping up with the Joneses.
    Enjoy all the strengths and agility and self-awareness that come from being a mature male.
    Enjoy the ability to buy your own toys and the freedom to enjoy them without interference.
    Live long and prosper, all ye PPMBs!

    According to FerFal, here’s how to raise a mass killer: http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/2542

  157. Martian Bachelor says:

    Didn’t anybody else see the interview with the 8 y.o. boy (Luke) who was in another classroom? His dad’s a cop. Basically, when the gunfire erupted, the teacher broke down in tears. But the kid kept his composure because he knew his dad had his back. 3rd and 4th grade boys w/guns would have been a better defense than a whole sorority full of useless dumb blubbering broads.

    In a different interview, the school nurse – allegedly a profession including “first responders” – hid in the supply closet for 3+ hours after the shooting stopped, following the established rescue protocol.

    It’s like a socially controlled lab experiment where the only ‘perfect color’ is lavender.

  158. MackPUA says:

    Its ironic theres no sense of justice like the patriarchial years

    Politicians used to get accosted by outraged men & women, & debates ensued & were rife & passioned arguements were the norm …

    Where wits & tenacity were the norm & incisive cut to the bone words are the norm

    Now these are the days of puritanism, a time where women were protected against the justice of men

    Its ironic when breaking new frontiers its women who are protected, when its men who are needed to do all the real hard labour

    I wonder how many women & children wouldve survived if women chose to protect their men …

    Of course the wage slave, the pack mule, the walking wallet, is enlsaved & encloaked in the sleight of hand of white guilt, oppressor, rapist, abuser, wife beater …

    Of course a womans unhaaaaaappiness needs a wide range of definitions, a backdrop for their tales …

    Plausability has a price … men are the price …

    Of course its plausable, it all sounds so plausable, so unquestionable

    The truth turns from being the truth, it turns into a plausibility, instead of being the truth

    A society thrives, not on protecting the victims, but by demonising the victim,

    When men who just want to work, raise families, are preyed on by feminists, the church & carousel riders, who have no ability to raise a family, let alone bond with a man …

    Then again we have a capitalistic, materialistic state, which thrives on demonising & fleecing & stealing from the undefendable …

    When it comes to socially engineering the gullible & the deliberately not so intelligent. the bigger the lie the better

    Plausibility the biggest game in town, approved by your local social engineer & surveillance camera operator …

  159. Fitz says:

    I think we do ourselves and our adversaries a real disservice when we concentrate on how the sexual revolution and feminism has corrupted our woman and made marriage untenable for men.

    Certainly woman are pack thinkers and did what they were told by society…they became sluts and got jobs; many are still strutting around like this is an accomplishment…looking down on men & never digesting the fact that their true calling was to be good wives and mothers.

    I prefer to go deeper myself and back light the way woman and society has devolved while placing the blame were it truly belongs. I write allot about the counterculture left and Frankfurt school Marxism.

    Marriage is the true building block of any and all civilizations…great & small. The manosphere is so jaded when it comes to marriage that they have missed the feminists and cultural lefts greatest triumph to date.

    They are overthrowing the institution of marriage at the core philosophical level. All things being “equal” woman have all the sexual/reproductive power. Redefining marriage means essentially that men have no valued place in the family, to their own children and in society.

    This is the reason marriage as traditionally defined has always been declared a fundamental constitutional right (indeed it is an International Human Right -Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…declares the ” family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society” and defines it traditionally)

    “Marriage is one of the “basic civil rights of man,” fundamental to our very existence and survival.”

    This quote is from both Loving v Virginia court quoting the precedent of Skinner v. Oklahoma.

    The Supreme Court case precedents of Turner v. Safley, 482 U.S. 78 (1987); Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374 (1978); Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965); Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535 (1942) and Baker v Nelson..

    This is well established in case law and universally recognized by attorneys on both sides.

    As the New York State Supreme Court noted in Hernadez v Robles –

    “To ignore the meaning ascribed to the right to marry in these cases and substitute another meaning in its place is to redefine the right in question and to tear the resulting new right away from the very roots that caused the U.S. Supreme Court and this Court to recognize marriage as a fundamental right in the first place.”

    I implore everyone in the manosphere to center their minds on a fundamental right of man, well understood and recognized by all societies for a millennia; is about to be declared either unconstitutional &” irrationally bigoted” or ignored completely and put up for mere majority vote in various states.

    This is man & woman’s place in the family…this is the right of the parent to know & be known by his children. This is the feminists greatest coup d’état -allowing them the legal & philosophical power to declare men anathema to the “family” and continue to use the power of the state to marginalize and ignore our fundamental human right to form a family.

  160. TheRedFlag says:

    Sorry for the typos in the above post.
    Very Impressive.
    You are correct, men in general still do dominate the workplace in regards to raw earning power.
    What it comes down to is this.
    You are listening too much to women.
    Women are complaining about losers, sitting at home, doing nothing and not marrying them
    because these are the only guys that take American Women seriously.
    The good earners, such as myself, are quite content with our money, careers, small dogs and houses. Sure we date women, sure we flirt and at times get involved. But women sense that we are not pressed. And my friends and I are not pressed.

  161. Beau4 says:

    I am a 40 year old never-married man, no kids, who makes $350,000 a year. For what it’s worth (or for argument’s sake) assume I am 6′ tall, healthy, active, presentable and, well, modest. I have heard the term “Peter Pan” on occasion, mostly in a light hearted fashion. It always comes from married women at least somewhat concerned that this escaped slave might tell the slaves that it is pretty darn good off the plantation.

    So the big question, why have I never tried marriage? It is at least partly because the women I come into contact with are so very self-centered and, at least in my judgment, incapable of putting a future family’s needs ahead of their own. “Lifestyle” is their paramount concern. They would rather have a Mercedes than a little Mary (and if they have a little Mary, she gets chucked into 50 hours of weekly day care six weeks after she’s born so that mom can go back to making the Mercedes payments). That attitude is incompatible with a long-term, sustainable relationship and the creation of healthy, well-adjusted children. Even though I can afford to pay for an upper-middle class lifestyle, I choose not to subsidize a woman who believes everything single thing she thinks and feels is right while risking getting taken to the cleaners by pro-woman courts.

    All this said, I have always wanted to get married and have kids and I still hope to find that special someone. I just hope it is not too late.

    Another great article, Dalrock. Keep up the excellent work.

  162. DisillusionedBeta says:

    I hate the terms they use against single men to shame them into marrying sluts; because that’s what they want, for men to “man up and marry that slut”. According to your curves, I am in the top 4% of wage earners and yet still live at home. I could afford to move out, and had I met a good girl who I was head over heels in love with (and she with me), I would have done so by now. My family is conservative and I know myself, if I were to move out, I will be up to no good so I avoid temptation, and I stay home and help out with the chores and expenses. Not to mention, I was away from home at college since I was 18 and just recently moved back (10 years). Believe it or not, if you come from a good family and you dont expect (or desire much) to be sleeping with slutty women, living at home is awesome. I can catch up with family and make up for the missed birthdays, events. I am so glad I didnt come from a broken home where I would feel the need to move out.

  163. Pingback: “Guys need to put down the controller, get a job, and get married.” Oh, really? | Just a Thought

  164. Pingback: Forfeiting The Patriarchal Dividend | Dalrock

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