What HUSies want.

In my previous post The ubiquitous frame of hypergamy the discussion has turned towards what feral women actually want.  Yohami offered this insight:

What I kept telling to Susan (and wouldnt listen). Yes, girls go f*** and they want relationships. However “relationship” doesn’t mean lifelong commitment and monogamy. Relationship doesn’t even mean love. Relationship only means theres enough time and space to vert a lot of emotions into it, from the shiny ones to the darker ones, whatever applies. Pure sex is insipid. Emotional (drama) sex is yummy. Put dramatic sex on hands of a vigorous confident man who can take her to dramatic places and she’s on fire. No drama, no vigorous sex? she’s outta here towards brighter or darker places.

My one disagreement with Yohami’s analysis is that I think the women do want love.  They want the man to fall in love with them as a sign of his investment in them, as a way to achieve the benefits of commitment without committing themselves.  They can also use this to claim they are more moral than those sluts who are doing it the wrong way.  They also want to fall in love with the man, because this provides the very emotional drama they crave.

Yohami’s description reminds me of a comment I left on Rollo’s site, which Rollo was kind enough to quote in his post 50 Shades of Twilight.  Here is my take on what feral women want:

I think there is another side to the same coin. These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.

They want this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose control to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.

They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.

One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actual amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimic would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of control. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.

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169 Responses to What HUSies want.

  1. YOHAMI says:

    Dalrock. Women want love. They also want hate. They want commitment. They also want betrayal and burning ties. They want respect. They want indignation. They want to trigger the indignation. Life is a rainbow and they want it all.

    The other part of that comment is that women dont shy away from negative emotions. There’s a reason you cant help a woman who’s going through a hard patch = she´ll take your help, but continue on the hard patch. She likes it. Positive and negative emotions, women want it all. Crying and laughing game. All. Love, and hate. All.

    So yes, women also want the love, and also want the good stuff, but it’s not the only color they are after, and it’s not the sole motive they engage in dramatic casual carousel rides. If love and commitment was the only flavor on the plate, they would be looking for their fun elsewhere.

    But of course they also want to be protected from repercussions and real harms from that behavior. Hence, at the end they need a dominant man who keep them in check. Or a dominant state. Or a tribe that keeps them in check. Some external boundaries since they lack their own. They fear danger but also want it. They need external protection. They cant trust themselves.

  2. Jim says:

    I’d much rather have this:

    http://www.rooshv.com/20-reasons-why-i-dont-want-to-live-in-america-anymore

    America can keep its women. There are much better ones outside of it.

  3. YOHAMI says:

    Ah. more.

    “They want the man to fall in love with them as a sign of his investment in them, as a way to achieve the benefits of commitment without committing themselves. ”

    Yes. No matter what the setup is, women want other people, and men, to give them a privileged seat. In relationships, no matter what kind, they expect to be treated like snow flowers. The truth is that “jerk” doesnt mean the guy they are messing with is one, it just means the guy is not putting her on a pedestal, and she´ll keep trying to make him do so.

    “They can also use this to claim they are more moral than those other sluts who are doing it the wrong way.”

    Intrasexual competition. For girls any other competing girl is a slut and is doing it the wrong way. If some girl appears and is full of virtue and is doing it all right and with pure intentions – and males respond to her positively – the other girls just hate it. Pure hate. “Such a bitch, how she dares to do everything… like that. She doesnt care about how I feel?”

    “They also want to fall in love with the man, because this provides the very emotional drama they crave. ”

    Yes. Fall in, fall out, fall in again. The equivalent to male penetration and friction that produces orgasms = women do it with their emotions.

  4. Jim says:

    No stability in these women Yohami and therefore no trust.

  5. deti says:

    “They want the man to fall in love with them as a sign of his investment in them, as a way to achieve the benefits of commitment without committing themselves. They also want to fall in love with the man, because this provides the very emotional drama they crave.”

    I don’t know if the women necessarily want love out of it. I don’t believe that’s always true. But accepting it as true, note well, dear readers, that “love” is NOT the same as “commitment”. Feelings of love do not mean the woman has made a decision to invest in a particular man or commit her life to him.

  6. cecil henry says:

    Women like the negative stuff???? Really???

    I find that hard to actually believe

    That’s crazy and just SO different from any man. Men want the good, the beautiful, the true.

  7. YOHAMI says:

    “love” is NOT the same as “commitment”

    That’s it.

    And, love stories can have any kind of duration, and, they dont consist of virtuous emotions only. Plenty of love stories are about something else.

  8. okrahead says:

    What you are in essence describing is a female form of “adrenaline junkie.” In men this generally takes the form of pursuing physically dangerous activities for no other reason than the enjoyment of the activities themselves (sky diving, dangerous game hunting, drag racing, etc.). Men are expected to bear the (often gruesome) consequences of these pursuits; in point of fact most of these pursuits have a “code of honor” that requires the participant to stoically accept any harm that may come to him.
    Womyn, on the other hand, seek emotional danger. That emotional danger can go hand-in-hand with physical danger (STDs, falling prey to a criminal while intoxicated, etc.) seems to escape their notice, nor is there any “code of honor” that requires womyn to accept the consequences of their actions. In point of fact, the current code of honor in place, the chivalry of the white knight (aka king of all chumps) actually dictates that men deliver womyn from the consequences of their own bad actions (while the men in question remain disposable themselves accept the womyn’s supposed moral superiority).
    Since men are required to bear the consequences of their own risky behavior their adrenalized activities do not harm society at large, and sometimes are even beneficial (without the physical risk taking of men we would never have explored the world, developed flight, gone to the moon, etc.). Womyn’s unconstrained seeking of an adrenaline high, however, is destructive to the family (after she’s had 666 gang bangs and contracted 211 incurable STDs she isn’t much good for marriage, no matter what her hamster tells her).
    As an aside, it is generally accepted among men that a married man with small children should NOT voluntarily engage in adrenaline seeking risky behavior, regardless of how much he enjoys such behaviors. Our current society, however, actively encourages married womyn with small children to engage in their own version of those activities (hello hypergamous harlotry!) to the destruction of their marriages, their children, their husbands and of course ultimately themselves. I am not a Freudian, but looking at this ongoing situation I am moved to some acceptance of Freud’s idea of the “death urge”.

  9. deti says:

    Dalrock, you don’t know how fortunate you are to have Yohami commenting regularly here. Yohami is brilliant. He is the manosphere’s Yoda, Obi-wan Kenobi and Captain Kirk rolled into one. He is a manosphere treasure.

  10. YOHAMI says:

    Thanks for the kind words Deti. Now get your own blog rolling!

  11. Jennifer says:

    There are, Yohami, women who want it all, but also women who, like some men, are adrenaline junkies, and where such men get rushes from action, such women get it from emotional drama.

  12. Jennifer says:

    Which okrahead noted too. Cool.

  13. YOHAMI says:

    Jen, current society revolves around making us junkies: make us insecure and awkward, and then sell us distractions, patches, medications, addictions. Feel bad about yourself? get a card, clothes, get something easy, get a fix, get a vacation, evade, baby.

    You cant plan long term nor take responsibilities when you’re chasing the easy fix and the shiny in the here and now, and avoiding the pain and (fake) crisis they keep pouring into us so we keep running.

    Then, this society also freed women from accountability and responsibility. Thus, no need for maturity, ever. Then add lust, boredom, drama fixation… that’s the cock-tail.

  14. Jennifer says:

    Totally agree, Yohami. Even before now, I noticed how society helped engineer high-junkies like we’ve never seen them before. If we latch on to the highs we’re offered with real hunger, our minds react to such things the way bodies react to drugs: they soar in sensation, relish the feeling, then eventually become accustomed and want MORE, bigger. This includes sex and things like piercings; more and more shocking, more and more rough. And you correctly touched upon one of the other factors of society, the marketing ploy of making us feel inferior so we’ll pursue the wares.

  15. Crank says:

    To a certain degree, I think you are making the same mistake as Susan sometimes does – conflating what women consciously “want” with what their primal impulses convince them they need to do. They “want” all the things you describe – love, commitment, etc, because they consciously believe it will be natural for them. But their primal instincts (hindbrain) will respond better to drama, etc. Also, once their primal instincts lose the desire, they often conclude that the “love” is gone. But that’s not the same as not “wanting” love or commitment. It’s just being constitutionally incapable of following through on it (or being unwilling to put in the effort to follow through because suppressing the primal urge takes work and awareness).

    The expression “it’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind” must come from somewhere.

  16. van Rooinek says:

    ?Women like the negative stuff???? Really??? I find that hard to actually believe

    You need to get out more.

    That’s crazy

    Yep. It truly is.

  17. rockthrowingpeasant says:

    But accepting it as true, note well, dear readers, that “love” is NOT the same as “commitment”. Feelings of love do not mean the woman has made a decision to invest in a particular man or commit her life to him.

    Absolutely floored by these sentences. Accurately depicts the disconnect men can experience by placing male definitions and concepts, such as how we view love, onto women and how we can be baffled when they don’t seem to match the actions of women. This is the type of wisdom that men point to when talking about “Red Pill.”

  18. deti says:

    RockThrowing:

    Someone, I think Vox Day, pointed out that you can more or less accurately assess a woman’s stated emotional state by adding the words “Right now I feel” in front of whatever she says.

    “I love you.” is really “Right now I feel that I love you.”

    “I like this. This is fun.” is “Right now I feel that I like this. Right now this is fun to me.”

    “I want to be with you forever” is “Right now I feel like I want to be with you forever.”

  19. bskillet81 says:

    Or, in other words, “Bitches be crazy.”

  20. tweell says:

    It makes sense. Soap operas are well-known for the heavy woman viewership, and they deliver lots of dark emotional drama. Look at the average ‘chick-flick’ and you’ll see the same thing.

    Roissy amuses himself by continually pointing out the how women are drawn to darkness, be it a narcissist, a psychopath, or a PUA faking these attitudes. My mother (in her 80′s) recently complained about modern women being attracted to bad men. I laughed and laughed, then pointed out that dad rode a motorcycle and would get in bar fights for fun when they married. She managed to hang on to her lesser alpha (60 years, he just passed away); but even with that amount of time to think about it, had never realized she was drawn by the same things she looks down on.

    Patriarchy saved my mother. Grandpa vetted dad, and figured he could keep his daughter happy AND provide a decent living as well. Her other suitors did not suit grandfather, and his word was law. Today’s women don’t have that advantage. Daddy doesn’t get a say, if he is even in the picture. Feminism’s answer is the get out of marriage free (or better) card, which is further damaging our society. The women can say oops, take their marbles and his, then move on to the next guy.

  21. Heartless says:

    @okrahead: You are spot on with “adrenaline junkie”, just a minor tweak: women are dopamine junkies.

  22. Ian Ironwood says:

    @Crank:

    The expression “it’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind” must come from somewhere.”

    The Rationalization Hamster is where this comes from. “Changing her mind” is essentially the same thing as “re-frame it until it isn’t my fault anymore”.

    @bskillet 81
    Or, in other words, “Bitches be crazy.”

    Word.

    Everyone else:

    Women crave emotional drama (even other people’s — or, actually, especially other people’s) because it feeds their ability to a) judge other people in relation to herself (“Is she more of a slut than I? Am I a better mother than she is? What is he doing with her when I’m so much prettier?”) and b) because the drama fuels their need for excitement and sympathy. Most women are happy to get by with rom-coms, romance novels, Twilight, True Blood, and soap operas, which all fulfill the same basic need in women as porn does with men. It’s a way of engaging their erotic sensibilities, which in women are far more attached to their emotions than in dudes. They might be scandalized and outraged at Charlie Sheen living with a porn star, but when the lights are off or she’s on her way home from work, her brain is running through scenarios in which she was the porn star in the thick of high-profile celebrity drama and her panties are soaked.

    It’s part and parcel of the Female Social Matrix: even when a woman is just reading a celebrity gossip rag, she is informing her ability to judge, refining her relative position within the Matrix, and feeding her erotic imagination all at the time.

    But that doesn’t mean she doesn’t want love. Problem is, the poor, silly little things just have very little concept of what “love” is, or what to do in pursuit of it, thanks to generations of bad romances and unlikely romantic comedies. They think they do, because all women believe that all women are inherently better at finding and knowing what love is than all men. Worse, thanks to the Matrix, the consensus on what “love” feels like and means to a woman has gotten hopelessly skewed. If there aren’t roses springing out of her twat every time she bends over, dozens of men wanting her but who can’t have her, and a tall, dark slavishly devoted billionaire involved, then it just isn’t love to these women’s subconscious.

    @deti
    When the hell are you going to get your own blog?
    And commitment? Another one of those things that they really do not understand, thanks to hypergamy. A friend of mine recently proposed to his girlfriend, and we discussed commitment. I asked if his fiance was truly committed, and when he assured me she was, I advised him to have his name and phone number tattooed on her ass. She refused, of course. If she was truly committed, I told him, she would have at least considered it. Consider your standard bacon-and-eggs breakfast: the chicken is supportive of the meal. The pig is committed. Do you want a wife to support you, or be committed to you? I asked. They’re still working it out, but I stand by my advice.

  23. Rivelino says:

    i am going to finish reading this post but just wanted to stop and say that this:

    “What I kept telling to Susan (and wouldnt listen). Yes, girls go f*** and they want relationships. However “relationship” doesn’t mean lifelong commitment and monogamy. Relationship doesn’t even mean love. Relationship only means theres enough time and space to vert a lot of emotions into it, from the shiny ones to the darker ones, whatever applies. Pure sex is insipid. Emotional (drama) sex is yummy. Put dramatic sex on hands of a vigorous confident man who can take her to dramatic places and she’s on fire. No drama, no vigorous sex? she’s outta here towards brighter or darker places.”

    is FUCKING BRILLIANT

  24. Arch says:

    Someone, I think Vox Day, pointed out that you can more or less accurately assess a woman’s stated emotional state by adding the words “Right now I feel” in front of whatever she says.

    I believe you have just hit on why women drive conspicuous consumption.

  25. Rivelino says:

    “Dalrock, you don’t know how fortunate you are to have Yohami commenting regularly here. Yohami is brilliant. He is the manosphere’s Yoda, Obi-wan Kenobi and Captain Kirk rolled into one. He is a manosphere treasure.”

    tell me about it.

    even better, yohami + deti + dalrock = some serious male wisdom

  26. jrc says:

    I’m sure I’m not the only one, but I’ll post it. I no longer trust my wife; I almost hate her. She isn’t a ball-busting, raving feminist slut, but I have seen enough darkness and betrayal with the help of the “they live” glasses to feel something close to raging despair. What Christian/Biblical advice can I get to deal with this? No religion haters please.

  27. greyghost says:

    What is all this talk about women and “love” Don’t you all know women don’t have the capacity to love? They gina tingle, “right now I feel like the gina tingle”
    The article looks like the answer to the question of what do women what, “They want toasted ice of course”.

  28. deti says:

    jrc:

    What kind of “darkness” and “betrayal” are you talking about that makes you almost hate your wife? I’ve been through something quite similar. Best advice I can give is this:

    1. Limit reading at hardcore PUA or nihilist sites.
    2. Find out exactly what the objectionable behavior is. Be very specific about it.
    3. Start running some game. What kind of game tactics will depend much on what you feel needs to be addressed or modified about your relationship. The best kind of game to start with is simply to start eliminating beta behaviors. Say “I love you” a little less. Don’t say things like “I can’t live without you” or “Do you love me?” Eliminate supplication. Ask less, tell more. Suggest less, direct more. Do not ask for permission for things like buying a new pair of shoes or something else you might need. Just tell her you are going to do it, and then do it.

    I’m authorizing Dalrock to send you the email address I use as verification to this blog so you can email me privately if you want to.

  29. deti says:

    jrc:

    If you suspect marital infidelity, that’s a different ball of wax altogether. Need to get all the way to the bottom of that and then address that accordingly. That’s not a fitness test. That’s much, much worse.

  30. Wet Willy says:

    JRC

    To add Deti’s : Do you hate children? They are known at times to be selfish, spiteful, spoiled and even devious. And yet we can love them in full knowledge of this. Just don’t put them in charge of the household and give them boundaries.

    While taking Deti’s advice perhaps you might examine yourself too. If she’s still on the pedastal maybe you too should swap places.

  31. pb says:

    A solicitation for advice on escaping the beta mindset: you can probably fill in the blanks, but as someone who has been probably LJBFed but was content to be a friend but is finally tired of being treated poorly as a friend/ignored, should I just cut off contact without saying anything or is that urge to say something a right one to follow? How should I channel the anger/hurt?

  32. bskillet81 says:

    @pb

    I know only a little about game. But I know enough about women to know what the LJBF is all about. Never, ever actually be friends with a girl who says LJBF. If you hang in the same social group, then you don’t need to ignore or leave the group per se, but don’t ever actually be a friend to her in any special 1-to-1 way.

    Why? The LJBF thing is totally an ego trip for her. She has no attraction to you, which you have already figured out. She also doesn’t value you as a person or a friend. She wants you to spend time hanging out with you, though, because she gets an ego stroke out of the fact that you are still attracted to her. She just likes to know that there are guys who are so crazy attracted to her that they would hang out with her even if the guys get nothing in exchange.

    She might occassionally do some kind of flirty stuff just to make you think there is still a chance, even though there isn’t. She wants to maintain a “friendship” just for the ego boost it gives her.

    I would just bail. Alternately, you could alpha up and tell her it’s a romantic relationship or nothing. She might get some tingles from your show of strength and want to be more than friends, but the relationship will be unlikely to go anywhere.

    Best thing to learn in your red pill journey: She’s no prize. There is nothing magical about her that makes her better than others. There are exceptions to this, real marriageable women, but they’re rare.

    Again, she’s no prize.

  33. TFH says:

    Again, the problem is that a woman can unilaterally end the marriage without risking her own financial condition (and can in fact profit from divorce).

    I maintain a very simple observation as the root cause of divorce rates in a society :

    Will a woman’s living standard go down if she divorces?

    If yes, that society has a low divorce rate.
    If no via rigged laws, that society has a high divorce rate.

    That is all there is too it. All the rationalization of ‘we grew apart’ or ‘I was not haaaapy’ are just cover for the cold financial decision. Note how women in countries without such laws, simply do not say those things.

    I also note that societies where MEN retain custody and money if they unilaterally toss out their wives (Islamic societies) still have LOW divorce rates. Men tend to be responsible adults, and will put their children first, even if the man has a lot more SMV remaining at age 40 than his wife…

  34. Anonymous says:

    Dumb suburbanite ‘ho types who never experience real consequences until they end up old, alone and childless or like Natalee Holloway… “Whaah, where are all the good men?!” (you LJBF-ed them away, babe).

  35. Boy Howdy says:

    “And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.”

    And if it isn’t safe, we need a Violence Against Women Act to rectify it.

  36. Ceer says:

    It’s pretty typical for people who are the marrying kind (both men and women) to assume that the majority of their gender is like them… In my experience, happily married people tend to be the exception rather than the rule. The ones that ARE happy never apply the accepted wisdom that you must be deleteriously happy all the time.

    I’ve seen women young, middle aged, and old who undeniably go for beta. They lock beta down quick and tend not to let go. Due to the lack of such women in today’s anything goes society…I’d say that most women are not naturally like that.

  37. an observer says:

    Bskillet

    +1 the ljbf comments

    What she says:
    You are a sweet guy, funny, thoughtful and a great catch.

    What she means:
    You will never lay a finger on me, but feel free to orbit, affirm my existence, and buy me stuff.

    She is so not worth it.

  38. pb says:

    bskillet81:

    Thanks for your response. She’s actually overseas at present – when she was living here she was seeing someone else, so she never explicitly said LJBF. That was back when I was immersed in nice guy thinking and was trying to be friends with women, a false ideal which I’ve since abandoned but I tend to give up trying to maintain friendships much more slowly. She recently hasn’t been responding to messages and such, so I have been questioning whether I should give it one more try and ask her about it or if I should give up and walk away..

  39. pb says:

    I suppose I should say I LJBFed myself. Am I being too beta in trying to maintain the friendship?

  40. dogsquat says:

    pb, if you really want to be with that girl, you’ve got one slim chance left.

    Here it is:

    1. No contact with her – Facebook, phone, anything.
    2. Get in the gym.
    3 Start coming to Uncle Dogsquat’s Saturday morning Krav Maga class. Imma thump some Beta out of you, and teach you to thump on other folks.
    4. Start kicking ass at work/school.
    5. Create something. Build something, write music, paint – bring something into the world that wasn’t here before with your own two hands. Get good at it. Do it often.
    6. In three months, start dating other women.
    7. In a year, call her and allow her to buy you a drink.

    That’s it, dude. It’s the only way a decent relationship could come of this. You might guilt her into a date or two, but she’s not feeling you right now. She knows you’re calling, and is choosing to ignore you.

    Think about that.

    It’s deliberate.

    Let that wash over you for a minute. Let it sting.

    OK, self-pity time is over. Now, use that pain as fuel to improve yourself.

    Good luck. I’d take Deti up on his offer if I were you. That guy knows things.

  41. an observer says:

    Pb

    Yes, you are being far too beta. Cease all contact.

    What is worse is that other girls in this social group have seen your behaviour.

    To patch your smv with this group, do this – once only.

    Turn up to a party or gathering where all those women will be, with a hot women in tow they have never seen before. Do NOT explain anything. When asked, just say ‘it’s complicated.’

    Guaranteed to get those hamsters spinning…

  42. deti:

    “Say “I love you” a little less. Don’t say things like “I can’t live without you” or “Do you love me?” Eliminate supplication. Ask less, tell more. Suggest less, direct more. Do not ask for permission for things like buying a new pair of shoes or something else you might need. Just tell her you are going to do it, and then do it.”

    All good advice. And she should be asking your permission for things. When you give her a direction, expect some cheek back. That is standard. But see if she actually does as you say. That is telling. Also, does she seem to listen to you and adjust her behaviour accordingly? Never mind what she says at the time, is there any lasting change? You will never know if you don’t try it.

    It can be tiny things. Just keep your eyes open. I told my wife I dislike boiled mushrooms, so she started frying them. Another recent one; I told her to stop writing “cheers” to sign off her emails to me. She ignored me once, but I expect she will stop using the expression.

    Give it a go and see. Some women rather like a bit of direction. And it is one of those marital games that can be quite fun for both of you.

  43. an observer says:

    Ps

    Overseas travel is hamsterspeak for ‘having sex with men she’s never met in exotic places.’

    Try not to pay any attention when she returns. Feign surprise when she mentions it.

    “Oh, you were away for six weeks? I’ve been so busy i didn’t even notice…”

  44. Less crazy women get their fix of emotional misery by reading about other women’s misery in magazines.

  45. Ian Ironwood:

    “I asked if his fiance was truly committed, and when he assured me she was, I advised him to have his name and phone number tattooed on her ass. She refused, of course. If she was truly committed, I told him, she would have at least considered it. ”

    Well, it depends on your social class. Adjust to that, and the principle is excellent. The traditional way to tattoo a woman on her arse was and is to get her to use your surname. That is a good start. If she won’t even do that, forget about marrying her. The general principle should be: will she do something a bit uncomfortable to please you? If she won’t, she is unlikely to be terribly committed. After all, bearing children is uncomfortable. If she won’t do something a bit outside her comfort zone, occasionally, before you even marry her and she is supposed to be “in lurve”, she sure as heck won’t do it afterwards.

    Is she the kind of girl who will get up really early to cook you a breakfast when you have to leave early on a business trip?

  46. pb says:

    an observer: She’s overseas for work. And fortunately? our social group is just us two, so I don’t know any of her female friends. Probably wouldn’t be interested in them.

  47. Opus says:

    @Dalrock

    I keep re-reading the comment at Yohami with which you end this essay (I think there is yet some milage in it which perhaps you might develop) however:

    Does not the slut-walker bear out your view? She wants to be able to dress howsoever she chooses, that is to say in as provocative a way as she can manage, go to the worst part of town, where the worst and most dangerous, that is to say the most exciting and irresponsible men hang-out, indulge herself should she fancy (she is a self-professed slut after all) and entirely on her own terms and yet demands that nothing bad should happen to her which would of course include anything that at any time she decides she did not like after all.

    The slut-walker demands all this whilst professing that she is strong, independent, and empowered; whereas it is easy to see that her attitude is that of a small child unable to fully grasp the extent or contours of the world; a child wearing her mother’s oversized shoes and pretending to be a grown-up.

  48. The slut-walker is like a Victorian lady “slumming”. She wants the thrills with no risk.

    I really don’t get why getting impaled on alpha cock is meant to be the height of liberation. But I am not a woman.

  49. an observer says:

    A previous commenter wrote that women want to control the male sexual drive, like a tap. To turn it and and off whenever it suits them. Remember female sexuality = good and male sexuality = bad. Of course we know that female sexuality is hugely deviant but the feminists have portrayed it in popular culture as chaste, demure and repressed.

    This popular misconception fails to explain those amateur photos on the interwebs of young women expressing themselves. . .

  50. Julian O'Dea says:

    an observer, there is almost nothing a woman won’t do for the right man.

  51. rockthrowingpeasant says:

    She isn’t a ball-busting, raving feminist slut, but I have seen enough darkness and betrayal with the help of the “they live” glasses to feel something close to raging despair.

    In the game blogs, they actually discuss this phenomenon. This occurs when you learn about the principles of game, but don’t apply them. Essentially, you psyche yourself right into the worst case scenario. It’s a beta tendency that goes away the more you adopt alpha mannerisms, because you begin to expect things to go your way.

    As far as Christian advice, read the Bible (natch). Dig around the red pill Christian sites. Ask questions. Put into practice what is advised.

  52. Some Guy says:

    @rockthrowingpeasant –

    It is difficult.

    1) You first find out that everything you did to get what you thought you wanted was a waste of effort.
    2) You then find out that what you thought you wanted is basically unobtainable. (Lots of things: friendship plus relationship, two rational adults in the relationship, commitment from her being a serious thing.)
    3) You then notice that every conversation with a woman involves emotions steamrollering principle, her getting something for nothing, or else being completely absolved from any kind of responsibility. It’s all narrative. Heck, as far as she’s concerned even the bible doesn’t require anything of her if she can blame a guy for something.

    Basically… any “nice guy” that wanted a “real relationship” is screwed. There is no “there” there– just a spoiled child with a lot of liabilities. Oh yeah… like I have to qualify myself to *that*. It is so disillusioning, I have no idea what I should actually want. But every interaction is a fitness test or a hamsterish rationalization…. It is wearying. There is nothing alluring or enticing about it….

    I guess this is still stage 2, “Anger.” At this point, the only thing keeping me together is adherence to biblical principal. I would not game my wife in order to get what *I* want. I would only do it if I thought it was required– if the biblical definition of love somehow included that. My hope is that a period of “raw leadership” effects enough changes that my feelings will have something to respond to, but that’s as far ahead as I can think.

  53. deti says:

    pb:

    Not to pile on too much, but the advice you’ve received from bskillet and observer is sound. What I’m going to say will sound harsh, so I apologize in advance.

    She LJBF’d you after you showed interest. You befriended her anyway. She was seeing someone else and is now overseas. You don’t like LJBF, you resent it, and you’re vacillating between making another try at her affections or just being friends or walking away.

    Walking away and cutting off all contact with her is the best option. Never, never be friends with any woman who LJBFs you explicitly or implicitly. What are you getting out of this “friendship”? She gets affirmation and validation in the form of attention from a man whom she knows wants a romantic relationship with her. You get nothing. She is using you and wasting (at the very least) your time.

    Do absolutely nothing for a woman who LJBFs you. Do not spend time with her unless you and she happen to be in the same place with mutual friends. Do not give her any one on one time. Do not be her friend. Do not indulge her by listening to her stories of her a**hole boyfriends, her pump & dump misadventures, or how “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right.” Don’t return her phone calls or texts. Under no circumstances should you ever spend any money on her or give her any help with anything.

    Pb, women are the gatekeepers of sex. But YOU are the gatekeeper of your investment and commitment. The things you have of value are your time, money, expertise and resources. These things are valuable, and they should not be expended on anyone who is (1) unworthy; or (2) unwilling to reciprocate. This woman wants you to invest in her for free — she wants you to give her your time, money and resources, but she wants, nay, expects, to give you nothing back in return. Her view on it is that all she has to do is grace you with her very presence, to dollop out small amounts of her attention on you, and you should simply want to reciprocate with your time. No. That is a waste of your time, and you should put an end to it now.

  54. deti says:

    pb:

    “Do not indulge her by listening to her stories of her a**hole boyfriends, her pump & dump misadventures, or how “I just want a nice guy who will treat me right.””

    Men who do this for women are called emotional tampons. The analogy is sound. The woman bleeds her emotions all over the man, who is expected to absorb them. The woman then discards the man and gives him no further thought.

  55. Pingback: Deti Wisdom: Never, Never Be Friends With Any Woman Who Let’s-Just-Be-Friends You | YOHAMI

  56. Rico says:

    A solicitation for advice on escaping the beta mindset: you can probably fill in the blanks, but as someone who has been probably LJBFed but was content to be a friend but is finally tired of being treated poorly as a friend/ignored, should I just cut off contact without saying anything or is that urge to say something a right one to follow?

    As someone who has been there many times, don’t say anything. She. Does. Not. Care.

  57. Athor Pel says:

    Up thread, the definition of love came up, specifically how it is defined differently by men versus women. Some of what I’m about to say was touched on but not in quite so stark a manner.

    Here is what I’ve come to realize, love is not the emotion. Love can have an emotional component that occurs at the same time as the act of love but it does not always happen nor must it happen.

    Love is an act of will. It is doing something with the well being of another person in mind as you decide to act and as you act sometimes even if they don’t want it. From a Christian perspective this even includes providing moral guidance for those you are responsible for to the point of forbidding certain behaviors and attitudes.

  58. YOHAMI says:

    Athor,

    “Love is an act of will.”

    You’re talking as a man. And you’re right as a man. Men are creatures of will. Women are creatures of emotion.

  59. deti says:

    jrc, pb:

    Here are some false claims about women which the manosphere has utterly destroyed:

    1. Claim: Women are altruistic and good, always seeking the good of others.
    Truth: Women SOMETIMES are altruistic and good, and SOMETIMES seek the good of others. Women can and often do act ruthlessly in their own self interest.

    2. Claim: Women do not lie about sex.
    Truth: Women can and do lie about sex, their sexual histories and their pasts. A woman can and will lie about her past history and her partner count if she deems it to be to her advantage, or to avoid shame or guilt. It is often said that women are rarely honest about their partner counts and find creative ways to fudge their counts downward. A good way to get to the truth about a woman’s partner count is to use the following formula: Multiply her admitted partner count by 3. Another thing to consider is that most women include in their partner counts only sober P in V “relationship” sex. The true partner count is reflected in the number of men whose penises she has seen or touched, his penis penetrated any of her orifices, or she participated in any act ending in the vernacular “-job”. If she’s touched his d**k, she’s “had sex with” him, and it counts.

    3. Claim: Women want soft, kind, gentle sex and need to be treated with delicacy in the bedroom. Missionary position is the only appropriate position.
    Truth: Women like soft sex only sometimes. Most prefer vigorous sex and really get off on it. And most women really like the rear entry or “doggie style” position because it requires her trust and submission. Most also like woman on top because it lets her control most of the movement.

    4. Claim: Women want to be equals in the bedroom and they don’t like giving BJs.
    Truth: Women want a man to dominate them in the bedroom. Most are not into BDSM, but most women want to be told when it is time for sex, they want to be told what to do and how to do it. Most women like to give BJs if they are told to do it and how to do it.

    5. Claim: Women never cheat on boyfriends or husbands.
    Truth: Given the right circumstances, right man, right time, and low odds of detection, many women can and will cheat. And she cheats for different reasons than men do. Men who cheat do so for sexual variety. Most women who cheat do so because they have lost attraction for their BF or husband.

    6. Claim: If a wife cheats, it is because her husband is being unkind to her or has driven her to cheat.
    Truth: If a wife cheats it is because she has lost attraction for her husband. And she has probably lost attraction because he isn’t leading her and acting dominantly in the marriage.

    7. Claim: If a wife cheats, it is easy to restore the marriage.
    Truth: Wife cheating is nearly always fatal to a marriage. It is more than her losing attraction. Once a woman has lost attraction for a man it is nearly impossible for her to feel that attraction again. Both husband and wife know that once she has broken the marriage and sought sex from another man, she has fully, totally and completely rejected her husband. She has sent the message to her husband that another man is better able to satisfy her. Another man is better, stronger and more suitable. Her husband is not good enough and an unacceptable mate. It is nearly impossible for a marriage to recover from such utter and complete rejection.

    8. Claim: Women are always kind and caring to their husbands or boyfriends.
    Truth: Women are sometimes kind and caring. But, women have a capacity for verbal and emotional cruelty than men cannot even approach. Once a woman is no longer in love with a man, she moves on from him and forgets him as easily as if she had never known him.

    9. Claim: Christian women are different, more spiritual and less hypergamous than nonChristian women. Christian women are better suited to marriage and motherhood because of their spiritual discipline and training.
    Truth: In terms of attraction, mating and basic sexual behavior, Christian women are no different from their secular sisters. They’re Christian, but they’re still women. Hypergamy is far worse among Christian women because they are raised from young childhood as “daughters of the King” and taught to “never settle” for just any man. They are told from childhood that God is “preparing a man just for you” and he will be perfect because God is perfect and God makes no mistakes and God is not a man and does not lie. In marriage, many Christian women are fed scriptural support for their beliefs, requiring the man to love sacrificially and unconditionally, but he must earn her respect.

    10. Claim: Christian women are less prone to divorce than nonChristian women.
    Truth: This is only somewhat true. The US national divorce rate is around 50%. The divorce rate for all those claiming Christ is 38%.

    11. Claim: Christian women never have sex before marriage.
    Truth: Given the right man, right circumstances, right time and low risk of detection, many Christian women will be willing to have premarital sex. Certainly not all do, but many have.

    12. Claim: Women never act selfishly.
    Truth: Women are capable of acting in their own self interests as much as any man. A woman is fully capable of fraud, deceit, manipulation, cunning, lying, ruthless self-interest, obfuscation, rationalization, shading the truth, and more. if she believes it to be in her interest or to her advantage.

  60. deti says:

    Athor: “Love is an act of will.”

    Yohami: “You’re talking as a man. And you’re right as a man. Men are creatures of will. Women are creatures of emotion.”

    Men fall in love with women. Women fall in respect with men.

    A woman does not love unless she feels love, and feels loved.

  61. rockthrowingpeasant says:

    Interesting, in respect to the often repeated Bible verses (Ephesians).

    Men are commanded to love. If it was truly natural, would we need to be commanded? If it’s not natural for either sex, does “love” take more will to achieve for men?

    Women are commanded to submit. Again, not natural. We are all prideful. Does “submission” take more will to achieve for women?

    God didn’t just pick those specific commands out of a hat.

  62. rockthrowingpeasant says:

    Mentally replease “achieve” with “achieve and maintain” in the post above.

  63. Firepower says:

    The compulsion to “explain” women is a waste of time.
    It will mean nothing when you hit 55 and your t-level evaporates.
    The fixation to use comments as a public dissecting tool for an utter insignificance is something I’m developing an understanding for, merely to sate my own curiosity. Better to explain why men feel the need to explain women…

  64. Suz says:

    rtp:
    “Does “submission” take more will to achieve for women?”

    Oh hell yes!

  65. Lavazza says:

    Of love and will: My guru says that love cannot be used as a guiding principle, since there is always a potential of violence in love. The guiding principle and promise must therefor be to not hurt. When living by that promise or principle, love often develops as a by product, but without the same potential for violence, since that aspect is monitored. (As I understand him.)

  66. Jacquie says:

    “Does “submission” take more will to achieve and maintain for women?”

    Of course it does. God told Eve her desire will be to her husband, meaning she will desire to control him, therefore it is a constant battle for any woman who chooses not to. It takes a strong woman. I do find it interesting that the women who fight the most to control their husbands are giving in to their weakness, while they look down on the women who do submit as if they are doormats or just too weak or ignorant to make their own choices.

  67. Firepower
    good point
    It is interesting that men spend so much time pontificating over what makes women tick. But it makes sense in selfish and altruistic ways. Selfish is easy, sex, altruism is trickier, good of society, the tribe, organized harmonious teams reigning in the world, all that.
    In as much as “you cant live with/without ‘em” is valid, so to is the compulsion to understand and explain them quite normal

  68. AnonS says:

    I wonder if women have a biological felt responsibility to control other women. They crave social networks in which they can exercise this power.

    I think place making has an impact on this. Humans might be better suited to small city/town/village environments where women have constant access to a social network they can invest in and be influenced by. A good wife is an asset to her husband in this environment by bringing the family honor and enforcing social norms. The social network is this environment has rules to give honor and power to the most moral women instead of the most feral.

    In the suburbs or isolating cities women turn to artificial means to get this fix and go crazy with felt responsibility but no authority. Team women then tries to direct this crazy frustrated energy on men and puts up with collateral damage when it hurts women.

    Thoughts?

  69. Jacquie says:

    I was musing about something earlier.

    The husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church; and the church is the body of Christ. Therefore the wife is the body in relation to the husband being the head.

    Love then is viewed differently for each the husband and the wife; practically or logically by the husband as the head, and emotionally by the wife as coming from the heart.

    If we follow this further by remembering that the Bible tells us that the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked the conclusion drawn could be that the emotional love from the heart, what the wife is prone to, cannot be trusted, but the love that is practical, and what is felt by the husband, can more so be trusted because it is based on what is logical instead of what is merely felt.

    To back this up more, God tells husbands to love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. It was not emotional love that led Christ to give his life for the church but a logical solution to the problem of sin and that sin could not enter heaven. Christ solved the problem.

  70. YOHAMI says:

    “Christ solved the problem.”

    Christ had the resurrection card. The regular guy has to play smarter.

  71. Sunshine says:

    Deti: “Here are some false claims about women which the manosphere has utterly destroyed”

    Excellent summary and very informative; thank you for this. I wish to highlight in particular the correctness of #3 and #4. Men are given horrid advice in the culture at large about this. I might be wrong about this, but I suspect women secretly despise men who do not dominate them sexually.

    I think #7 is not absolute, though. I believe God will restore a woman’e desire for her husband if she asks and is willing to be obedient. The best time for her to ask is BEFORE things degenerate to the point of unfaithfulness, but even after an affair, I think the marriage and desire can be restored if there is true repentance. But as you say, I’m guessing it would not be easy.

  72. Anonymous Reader says:

    pb, I had a long reply in my head formed up. But most of what I can think of has been said. Except for one very important point:

    A woman who does this LJBF thing is using you for her emotional pleasure, as well as for other reasons. Got that? She does not care if you are hurt emotionally or not. She only cares for what makes her feel good. This situation is like some kid on a playground running headlong into a tree to “prove himself” to some schoolgirl. Don’t be that kid with the bloody nose that the girls giggle about for days.

    Do not ever cause harm of any sort to yourself just to please a woman. Not ever, never.

    Here’s the review of everything else in bullet points:
    * Pay attention to what Deti wrote. Print it out. Read it every day for a while.
    * Do what Dogsquat advised. Print that out also. Tape it to your bathroom mirror.

    Let us know how it is going, no matter how things turn out.

  73. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sunshine
    Men are given horrid advice in the culture at large about this. I might be wrong about this, but I suspect women secretly despise men who do not dominate them sexually.

    I have seen situations where a woman logically would have every reason to love and respect her husband, but exuded utter contempt for him – fitness tests, snarky backtalk to him in public, being emotionally distant to him in public, almost certainly withholding sex from him in private. Before I studied Game, I would attribute this kind of bad behavior to treachery, betrayal, etc. and there may well have been an element of that. But the fact is, when a man becomes too beta, the “back of the head” of his woman gets alarmed, and starts fitness testing to see if he’s really as much of a leader as she previously thought. It is the old “saber tooth tiger at the mouth of the cave” subroutine: if he can’t stand up to her, then likely he can’t protect her from a serious enemy – and in that case, she needs to replace him. All of this is welling up from deep, ancient, thought patterns that really are closer to instinct than anything else. This can play out various ways. Many of them bad. Athol Kay’s MMSL has some good and some bad stories, for example.

    So I would rewrite your sentence:
    Women subconsciously despise men who do not dominate them in various ways, especially sexually.

    You are correct, men are given anti-advice from the culture, from the churches, from self-help books, from counselors, and often from their own families. That’s a big part of what the androsphere is about: teaching truths that nobody else wants men to know.

  74. deti says:

    Sunshine:

    Thanks. on my #7, I stand by my assertion. I think wife cheating is nearly always fatal to a marriage, regardless of her remorse and efforts at reconciliation. The level of rejection is far too great to overcome, due to the different ways men and women see sex.

    as to #3 and #4, more evidence that Roissy was right. F*** her good. This was so hard for me to realize, but women want to be jackhammered. Women want a good roguring. They want to come, and come hard. And when we’re done they want to lay there as a quivering pile of flesh, still recovering from the pounding they just took.

  75. deti says:

    “That’s a big part of what the androsphere is about: teaching truths that nobody else wants men to know.”

    And truths that are too ugly and painful for most people to face; and that most women don’t want to know about themselves.

  76. stingray says:

    Does “submission” take more will to achieve for women?

    This is a bit difficult to explain, but it’s not like we will ourselves to commit. That implies force. It’s more like we relinquish it. Danny from 504 described submitting as a gift to the man she gives it to. It is like a giving rather than a force to shove down. However, if we sense the man we are with is weakening in some way we may take it back until he proves he is strong again.* This may be where fitness tests come in. A sort of test of the strength. Women fear a power vacuum and will fill it with their own if they sense weakness.

    *This may not always be a bad thing, either. As in the case of a death in the man’s family. For a time he will likely need to temporarily relinquish power, simply to grieve. This time would be different from man to man. In the mean time, the woman will step up her role to give her husband the time he needs.

  77. Sunshine says:

    Anonymous Reader: “So I would rewrite your sentence:
    Women subconsciously despise men who do not dominate them in various ways, especially sexually.”

    Yes, thank you, that is more accurate. I actually thought about that while I was writing my original sentence, that personally I prefer my husband to dominate me in general, not just sexually, and I suspect other women feel the same. Actually, I came to the realization about two years ago that the more dominate my husband behaved toward me, the more I was interested in having sex with him. When I realized that I felt that way, I was desperately ashamed of it and thought there was something wrong with me. It wasn’t how I’d ever been told women were supposed to feel. To conventional wisdom, I was supposed to be interested in sex if he had done the dishes for me and brought me flowers. I like flowers and I like having help with the housework once in a while, but I did not find those things to be connected to my sexual desire for him. I thought I was some kind of freak when he started to TELL me how things were going to be and suddenly I couldn’t my dress off fast enough.

    Deti wrote, “And truths that are too ugly and painful for most people to face; and that most women don’t want to know about themselves”

    For me it was actually a relief to learn some of these truths because I realized I wasn’t some kind of masochistic pervert for wanting my husband to be a benevolent dictator. Back then, he was trying to cater to my whims, and I didn’t want to sleep with him. Now he is in charge, and I want it all the time, which causes him to feel loving toward me. Now is better than then.

    Deti: “And when we’re done they want to lay there as a quivering pile of flesh, still recovering from the pounding they just took.”

    I wish I could argue with you about this, I really do, but I would be lying.

  78. Jacquie says:

    @ Sunshine

    I’m curious, how did changes come about? Was it your husband who first started just telling you how things would be done, or was it something you asked of him? Just wondering how you both initiated changes. I could have written your comment above including the part about feeling ashamed and wrong for wanting to submit to my husband completely and yes, lustily.
    Also, have you had negative reactions from other women if you even hint to submitting to your husband? Do you still feel that you have to hide it? I find that I can only be totally open online. In person I have to step lightly. This is sad.

  79. Jacquie says:

    @ Sunshine

    I wanted to add that if you would rather not comment here but are comfortable corresponding through email you can contact me through my blog site.

  80. Sunshine says:

    @Jacquie
    Changes came about via a stepping-stone progression away from the mainland of insanity to the island of reality. The thing is, I’m hesitant to name the stepping-stones, and here’s why. I’ve noticed a slight tendency in these corners of the web to utterly lambast the stepping stones. It’s like, here we are on the island of reason, and those who aren’t quite here but who pointed us in this direction are now only worthy of utter contempt. A more humble pointing out of the truth of the next stepping stone might serve better the purpose of drawing more people to the island, you know, rather than just raving and making everyone on the island seem sort of wild-eyed and crazy.

    Let me just say it this way. My husband and I independently started to read the Bible with an eye toward understanding not only the spirit but also the letter of the law. We also did a Bible study using a particular book which I will tell you about if you email me directly (Dalrock – would you mind releasing my email address to Jacquie if she requests it?) which focuses on Ephesians 5. We also heard some sermons by a pastor (not our own pastor) which served as another stepping stone. However, at one point my husband did have his own “road to Emmaus” moment. He basically said, “You have to have sex with me. You don’t have a choice” and I was like, “Oh, ok.” And then the next day he said the same thing, and then one day I refused, and instead of being nicer to me, he was sort of mean, which just upset me right out of my panties. This sounds so terrible, I know I’m painting myself in a terrible light here, but there it is.

    He was never Mr. P*ssy-Whipped or anything, but he just kind of started telling instead of asking, and I told him directly that I vastly preferred that. I mean not to a ridiculous degree or anything – I can still order what I want when we go out to dinner, but if he decides we are going somewhere, doing something, or not doing something, that’s just the way it is now. Oh, and you know how women “fitness” test? I found for a while that my husband was “obedience” testing. Expect that, encourage it even, and most of all do NOT fail those tests. Do what he says instantly.

    I’m talking about sex way too much, sorry about that! I’m not usually that way online at all. My husband read this blog sometimes, but I sort hope he won’t today. It could make for a long night. ;)

  81. Sunshine says:

    Jacquie,
    Haha, wish I’d seen your second comment before I just posted my life story here.

  82. FNG says:

    @Sunshine
    I think many of us, new to this wisdom and in a difficult place, would apreciate hearing your answer to Jacquie’s question.

  83. Sunshine says:

    “Also, have you had negative reactions from other women if you even hint to submitting to your husband? Do you still feel that you have to hide it? I find that I can only be totally open online. In person I have to step lightly. This is sad.”

    True story: last month I went to a greenhouse with my husband so I could buy some herbs and vegetable plants for my garden. He came along to do the heavy lifting (mulch and whatnot). I found a pot of flowers I wanted, but flower-shopping was not why we had come, so I asked his permission to buy them and got a snarky under-the-breath comment from a woman standing near me, a complete stranger! Yes, people will give you crap about it, but who cares? They will lead a miserable, loveless life. You will be happy.

  84. Suz says:

    @ Stingray:
    “This is a bit difficult to explain, but it’s not like we will ourselves to commit.”

    I disagree. Stepping up and taking charge *when necessary,* is a crucial part of submission, even if it doesn’t look like “submission” as society tends to define it. I’ve said before, submission isn’t passive; it takes strength and will.

  85. Stingray says:

    Yeah, I obviously didn’t mean commit there. I meant submit.

    I agree absolutely that stepping up and taking charge is essential and that does take strength and will. But the initial submission, and the day to day life submissions, (at least for me) was more of a relinquishing. Not a forcing. Now, I would need to force myself and will myself to take charge when necessary, as you said.

  86. Stingray says:

    Oh, and that was not a dig at you Suz, I know you caught my typo. Maybe I need to pack it in today. Brain on slow-mo.

  87. Rivelino says:

    girls definitely want to be jackhammered.

    choking works too.

    http://dangerandplay.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/how-to-choke-a-woman/

  88. Suz says:

    “Surrender.” The first step in submission. I think one of the reasons it’s scary, is because that part IS passive.

  89. I say kick his ass until you damn well CAN submit! Don’t take no for an answer.

  90. van Rooinek says:

    O/T but the whole manosphere needs to know about this:

    “How religion promotes confidence about paternity”

    The study analyzed genetic data on 1,706 father-son pairs in a traditional African population—the Dogon people of Mali, West Africa—in which Islam, two types of Christianity, and an indigenous, monotheistic religion are practiced in the same families and villages.

    “We found that the indigenous religion allows males to achieve a significantly lower probability of cuckoldry—1.3 percent versus 2.9 percent,” said Beverly Strassmann, lead author of the article and a biological anthropologist at the University of Michigan.

    more at…
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/06/religion-vs-cuckoldry.html
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-06/uom-hrp060412.php

    Wow. Is it possible that pagan women don’t have rationalization hamsters?

  91. pb says:

    Thanks to everyone who gave their advice and input!

  92. Looking Glass says:

    Quick point on something Deti posted.

    A wife cheating is far more fatal to a marriage than a husband, and for a very specific reason. Always keep this in mind:

    For Men: Physical Contact = Emotional Connection
    For Women: Emotional Connection leads to Physical Contact.

    This is why a woman having an “emotional affair” is just as much of a problem as it becoming physical. The damage is already massive, even if they haven’t started jumping into bed together. Affairs take on *very* different characters depending on the sex of the partner.

    Or, the shorter form: A Husband can still Love his wife while doing the secretary; a Wife cannot still Love her husband while doing the pool boy.

    Obviously, there’s a lot more to it, but that’s the practical understanding.

  93. Looking Glass says:

    @van Rooinek:

    What’s the penalty for adultery? :) I’d say that’s far more likely to be a key component.

  94. deti says:

    Looking Glass:

    “This is why a woman having an “emotional affair” is just as much of a problem as it becoming physical. The damage is already massive, even if they haven’t started jumping into bed together. Affairs take on *very* different characters depending on the sex of the partner.”

    It’s just as bad if the wife has had a number of sex partners before marriage. One of those partners is her superalpha, her sexual gold standard. Every woman with a sexual past has one. Superalpha is the benchmark against whom she measures (heh) all future sex partners — whether or not she wants or intends to do so. She had the perfect sex partner; she “imprinted” sexually on him; and superalpha is all she can remember. She still pines away for him, and subconsciously hates, or feels contempt for, or friendzones, her husband. The husband just can’t compete with the idealized version of superalpha.

    Thus, a major cause of “I’m not haaaappy” divorces. Thus a major cause of “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. Thus wife says to husband “I’m not physically attracted to you.”

    Monica Lewinsky ruined her MMV for life. She sexed up the King Alpha himself, the AMOGest of AMOGs. (Whatever your political persuasions, we all have to agree that Bill Clinton is just about as bull alpha as it gets.) Who in his right mind would take it on himself to try to compete with that set of memories?

  95. YOHAMI says:

    She treasured the dress with his semen. For months (years?). Talk about imprint.

  96. deti says:

    Looking Glass:

    “For Men: Physical Contact = Emotional Connection”

    A quibble: I would say it this way:

    For Men: Physical Contact MAY LEAD TO Emotional Connection

    That’s why the man can love his wife while doing the secretary. He may or may not form an emotional connection to the secretary. He doesn’t need an emotional connection to the secretary in order to have sex with her AND still love and sex up his wife. He can love his wife and sex her; and he can not love the secretary and sex her too.

  97. Sunshine, I was on the phone to my young wife once, and it must have been obvious she was asking my permission to spend some money. Two women nearby commented negatively. I thought later: and that is why one of you is single and the other is getting a divorce.

  98. deti says:

    On the “superalpha” concept:

    Dalrock posted on this at least once.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/the-one-that-got-away/

  99. Sunshine says:

    empathologicalism “I say kick his ass until you damn well CAN submit! Don’t take no for an answer.”

    LOL! “Honey, I read online that women are supposed to be submissive, so now you have to be in charge and be all manly. I want you to tell me what to do, and here’s what I want you to say. Come on, I’m waaaaiting! I don’t feel very submissive yet, you must be doing something wrong!”

  100. Sunshine says:

    D.C. – I was trying to remember who it was who had posted that sometimes his wife asked permission to go to the bathroom…was that you?

  101. Anonymous Reader says:

    Stingray
    As in the case of a death in the man’s family. For a time he will likely need to temporarily relinquish power, simply to grieve. This time would be different from man to man. In the mean time, the woman will step up her role to give her husband the time he needs.

    First off, let me say I’m glad to see you finally showing up here.

    Second of all, +1 on this comment. Men are humans, not robots. Some events in life will knock us back very hard, sometimes for a while. Different men deal with things like death in different ways; some withdraw into themselves (burying in work, or in hobbies, or in commenting on blogs…), some suddenly want to make big changes. Some of us just go numb, and seem to be “not there” anymore. That is not a time for fitness testing, or for a woman to pull away from her man. But it happens.

    I’m thinking of a guy I knew who had a small business, and was doing ok. His father died. It was tough, but 3 months later his mother just basically pined away and died. Far as I can tell he “went numb”, and his wife took that personally, began really getting nasty with him. He happened to meet a woman who looked at him as a man rather than a nuisance. He wound up in an affair, but she was a gold-digger. Long story short, he had to sell his business, wound up driving a truck. I don’t know if he was divorced or reconciled, but the mistakes both he and his wife made cost them plenty.

    And this leads me back around to one of Dalrock’s maxims: Game is not enough to base a marriage on. Because sooner or later, some event in life will hit a man between the eyes hard enough he’ll lose frame, lose Game, for a while. Maybe for a long while, like months or a year. If Game is all he had, then right at the moment he needs a trustworthy woman the most, he’ll be hit with a barrage of fitness tests & other behavior that he may not be able to cope with. Whereas a woman who was head over heels in love with him will be willing to stand by him in this bad time, and her loyalty will be rewarded down the line, too.

    Again, glad to see you here, Stingray.

  102. Emma the Emo says:

    About asking a girl to tattoo your name on her ass…
    Would any of the men here do it? If you’d answer no, then think about why and apply that to women. No relationship is guaranteed to last, so tattooing a name of the man whos behavior I can’t control is not a good idea, even if he’s the betaest beta and swears he will always be here with me.
    Am I doing relationships all wrong if I’d resent a man who’d make me to do painful things even if he doesn’t really need them done? There is a lot I would naturally do for those I love and put myself through things just so they would be happy and unharmed, but once they start asking I do these things just to prove myself to them, they are no longer a person worth loving. They are a demanding child, or maybe they have BPD. Maybe other women don’t think like this at all, but to me it’s obvious. Users are users, and make you go through a bunch of hoops.
    That is why I find the suggestion of the tattoo to be unreasonable, there’s gotta be a better way to test her commitment. Taking your last name is a lot better, as well as checking if she’d be willing to do some uncomfortable work to help you with your goals, things really important to you. Not sure if bearing children is one such work – women want babies for their own happiness, and would rather feel all the discomfort of that, than to be childless.
    Sorry if I misunderstood anything. Submission is confusing and I’ve found it has these pitfalls where you don’t know if continuing means becoming a sucker with no self-respect or a sign of highest loyalty.

  103. deti says:

    Emma:

    I don’t think the post you’re referring to was about a male poster asking a woman to tattoo his name on her.

    I think it was about a male poster talking about dating a woman who had another man’s name tattooed on her.

    I can see why a man would not want to date a woman with another man’s name tattooed on her. She literally chose to let another man brand her like a head of cattle. She was not very smart.

    THere are legions of men who would be overjoyed and elated if they could just get a date with a reasonably attractive woman. To say nothing of getting her to marry him, much less getting her to take his last name or help him with his goals.

  104. Emma the Emo says:

    “And commitment? Another one of those things that they really do not understand, thanks to hypergamy. A friend of mine recently proposed to his girlfriend, and we discussed commitment. I asked if his fiance was truly committed, and when he assured me she was, I advised him to have his name and phone number tattooed on her ass. She refused, of course. If she was truly committed, I told him, she would have at least considered it. Consider your standard bacon-and-eggs breakfast: the chicken is supportive of the meal. The pig is committed. Do you want a wife to support you, or be committed to you? I asked. They’re still working it out, but I stand by my advice.”

    “Well, it depends on your social class. Adjust to that, and the principle is excellent. The traditional way to tattoo a woman on her arse was and is to get her to use your surname. That is a good start. If she won’t even do that, forget about marrying her. The general principle should be: will she do something a bit uncomfortable to please you? If she won’t, she is unlikely to be terribly committed. After all, bearing children is uncomfortable. If she won’t do something a bit outside her comfort zone, occasionally, before you even marry her and she is supposed to be “in lurve”, she sure as heck won’t do it afterwards.”

    It was actually this. I misunderstood the point about the babies (sorry), but what I thought was unreasonable is the tattoo idea. I agree with the second quote though.

  105. Crank says:

    Deti:

    Her comment was in response to Ian’s comment above whereby he suggested to his friend that he require his fiance to tattoo his name and phone number on her arse as a condition to marriage.

    Emma

    Some men might argue that getting married to a woman in Marriage 2.0 is often effectively tattoing her name on his arse, since he will likely be obligated to her in some manner for an extensive period following divorce, especially if children are involved. In other words, given the essentially one way nature of the modern marriage commitment, she doesn’t need the tattoo to know he’s “all in”.

  106. Emma the Emo says:

    Crank,
    It is true, what you say. I find marriage 2.0 to be an unreasonable demand to prove love as well.

  107. Emma the Emo says:

    I think I got the point now, thanks guys :) In the original marriage, rules made it difficult to divorce, so marriage itself was a strong commitment. Now it’s way too easy. If she wants to marry nowadays, something like a tattoo on her ass might actually mean something, although you can get them removed, and it seems people tattoo their bf/gf names on themselves and break up and end up looking stupid anyway.

  108. I never wanted my name on anyones ass
    just sayin

  109. deti says:

    Crank, Emma:

    Oh. Correction taken.

  110. Jacquie says:

    Since we’re talking about tattoos to show true commitment, last year for our twenty-fifth my husband and I went celebrated by getting tattoos for our anniversary. I had his name tattooed within a beautiful design symbolizing his love and protection over me. I figured after twenty-five years and our rededication to one another I could safely do this without fear that I would regret it down the road.

  111. Crank says:

    @empath

    how about on her breast? :)

  112. Crank says:

    @emma

    You’re right about the removability. That’s why I used a cattle brand on my wife, and would recommend it in lieu of a tattoo.

  113. Emo, I would not expect a woman to have my name tattooed on her. That discussion was illustrative, and a joke. My point was that a man does, however, like to mark out a woman as his. And the traditional way is to have her change her surname, as my wife did.

    Sunshine, I had a girlfriend who used to ask permission to go to the toilet, in restaurants and so on. Her attitude changed over time, and we broke up. I didn’t expect her to ask permission; she just did. My wife does ask permission for some things, or at least checks with me, about going out with friends, or making discretionary purchases. I never asked her to do it. She just does it. Very occasionally, I might “refuse her permission”. But I think it is mostly just her “touching base” with the Old Man.

    She doesn’t always obey me. There are a few things we have not agreed on. But her instinct seems to be to comply. For example, she knows I prefer her not to wear pants, so she rarely wears pants. Skirts or dresses instead.

  114. Dalrock says:

    Reminds me of the movie The Jerk:

    Patty: It’s like we’re married. Look at my ass.

    Navin: Gosh! You have my last name tattooed right there under the J’s! First I get my name in the phone book and now I’m on your ass! You know, I bet more people see that than the phone book.

  115. You could mark her by just lifting your leg and…..
    you know

  116. Oh, and BTW, my wife does her fair share of “mate-guarding” too. She is very possessive.

  117. Sunshine says:

    DC “For example, she knows I prefer her not to wear pants, so she rarely wears pants. Skirts or dresses instead.”
    Excellent. I am also, at my husband’s request, a follower of Deuteronomy 22:5.

  118. Well, Sunshine, I don’t know what that text says. I just prefer her not to wear pants.

  119. Stingray says:

    Anonymous Reader,

    Thank you.

  120. deti, the best way to be a woman’s super-alpha is to be the first man to probe her pelvis. And the last.

  121. Don’t choke a woman during sex. Geez. Dangerous.

    There are plenty of things you can do that are safer than that and express dominance nicely.

  122. P Ray says:

    @pb:
    Another way to know you’re dealing with a user:
    - She refuses to acknowledge you or your achievements in front of other people.
    - She never apologises for any shitty behaviour.
    - She only sees you when she has a problem, NEVER to share good fortune.
    I’d tell you to let her walk the merry path of self-destruction alone, she is free to make her own choices. You are free to let her face the consequences alone.

  123. jrc says:

    @ Deti
    “The level of rejection is far too great to overcome, due to the different ways men and women see sex.”
    Would you provide details about how you see these differences?

    As to your earlier questions: verbal/emotional cruelty, lies about money/emotions and lack of humility are the main areas of darkness/betrayal. 99.9% certain no adultery apart from mental. I can’t really think how I might have put her on a pedestal; I never expected more from her than myself. She failed those expectations miserably.

    @Sunshine
    You seem to be pretty self-aware and have travelled a road with your husband that I may need to travel with my wife. I would be very interested in learning more details about those stepping stones.

  124. Sunshine says:

    Something is bothering me about what I wrote yesterday, and I feel I should clarify it so that I don’t mislead anyone.
    I wrote:
    “Back then, he was trying to cater to my whims, and I didn’t want to sleep with him. Now he is in charge, and I want it all the time, which causes him to feel loving toward me.”

    I’m afraid I might have given the impression that I am implying that a woman does not have to have sex with her husband unless she feels like it. That is not correct. I firmly believe that a woman can and should and even, if she is a Christian, must have sex with her husband regardless of how she feels and whether or not he ever does anything differently. But, can we agree that having intimate relations with a wife who actively wants it is more fun than with a wife who grits her teeth and recites the Lord’s Prayer in her head?

  125. Jacquie says:

    @jrc
    I’m not sure what other sites you’ve visited, but wondering if you went on to Married Man Sex Life.

    If you are that sure that there has been no adultery then it could be the way she sees you. Some of what you are describing sounds like ‘fitness’ testing, how much she can get away with. The more she can get away with the further she pushes the boundaries. I did this often to my husband. I basically wanted to know he could take care of me. He didn’t put me on a pedestal, but had an apathetic attitude and acted passive aggresively toward me. I didn’t have much respect for my husband and resented him; this showed in my overall attitude toward him.
    Married Man Sex Life isn’t Christian based, but we didn’t really find anything in there that offended us or went against scriptural principles. We learned things that were not taught in church, in fact what we learned in these churches actually did more harm to our marriage than good. The last two years for us has been a learning experience, learning about each other, our selves, but also where we have been and where we want to go. Life is much better, he is the head of our house and I willing submit to his leadership. It still makes me shake my head a bit that we got a clearer perspective about the relationship of a husband in leadership and a wife deferring to her husband from resources that were not labeled Christian than all the ones that we read that were.

  126. Jacquie says:

    @ Sunshine

    “I’m afraid I might have given the impression that I am implying that a woman does not have to have sex with her husband unless she feels like it.”
    I don’t believe that it came across this way; you didn’t say you didn’t, just that you didn’t want to. But the comparison is understood. The intimate relationship in a marriage thrives when there is desire from both and the emotional bond is driven deeper than if a wife who even does submit does so with resentment; this will only hinder and emotional growth between them.

  127. jrc, yes, it sounds like she does not respect you. That is the bad news. The good news is that a lot of the miasma of bad attitude may clear away once you fix the basic problem. You need to get her respect. A woman who respects a man may be cheeky; but she will not be contemptuous or stridently critical or negative about you. If she is any of the latter, that suggests a lack of respect.

    You need to read something like MMSL or by Hawaiian Libertarian:

    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com.au/2009/12/pua-in-ltr.html

    http://pua4ltr.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/dave-from-hawaii-on-relationship-game/#comment-90

  128. jrc, some things that have worked for me. They may sound strange or even rough, but you might be surprised. Obviously I don’t know your situation, so ignore this if it is clearly off-base for you.

    Interrupt her (sometimes). Ignore her (sometimes). If she becomes emotional, stay calm. If she becomes emotional, laugh at her. Call her “sexist” names. Objectify her. Make chauvinistic remarks. Pretty much do the exact opposite of what marriage advice articles suggest. Don’t buy her flowers, unless you really feel like it. If she asks what you are getting her for Valentine’s Day, say something like, “Nothing, but I am looking forward to you doing a pole dance for me”. Patronise her. Talk down to her.

    The basic idea is to put her, not you, in a supplicatory position. She should feel that she is working for your approval. If you feel you are trying to please her all the time, you are doing it wrong.

    A lot of the above comes fairly naturally to me. But I know it sounds strange. The thing is that no woman will tell you this. They don’t consciously know it. They think they want to be treated like a queen. They don’t really, not deep down where it counts.

  129. deti says:

    @ jrc:

    “The level of rejection is far too great to overcome, due to the different ways men and women see sex.
    “Would you provide details about how you see these differences?”

    Sure. I’m going to borrow heavily from a previous comment I left here on the infamous “Is Frivolous Divorce Overstated in the Manosphere” post.

    There are differences in why husbands and wives cheat. If a husband cheats, it is usually for sexual variety. He has no intention of divorcing his wife. He simply wants some sex on the side, a fling, or a ONS. He is committed to his wife and has no intention of offering any kind of commitment, emotional or otherwise, to the fling or the ONS.

    It’s different when a woman cheats. When she cheats, she’s checked out of the marriage, She is 100% done with her husband. By the time she decides to offer her body to another man, she has nothing left for her husband. She no longer loves him (assuming she ever did love him or care about him in the first place), she feels absolutely nothing for him but contempt, hatred and derision. Before this she’s run the gamut of emotion with her husband: anger, asking him to “change” or “be more attractive”, then demanding that he “change”, threats, emotional distancing, girls nights out, marriage counseling, even trial separation.

    When she cheats, she is preparing herself and her body for a new husband and a new lover. When she cheats, she has moved on and is looking to fulfill the female imperative of serial monogamy — she’s done with this one and now wants the next one.

    This is why wife cheating is worse than male cheating. When a wife cheats, it almost always means the end of the marriage. By the time she’s ratcheted herself up to have sex with another man besides her husband, it’s over with her husband. This is why when a man cheats, the wife wants to know “Do you love her?” Because the wife knows if he loves the other woman, he will invest in her (not the wife). He will want to give the other woman his time, his resources and his money. Almost all the time, his having had sex with another woman does not mean he loves the other woman. Rather, he had recreational sex with the other woman and is still in love with and committed to his wife.

    But when she cheats, the husband wants to know “did you have sex with him?” Because if she had sex with him, she has severed her bond to her husband and bonded or sought to bond with the new man. Severance of that bond means she does not want the husband, does not love him and does not care about him or his feelings. Once she has severed that bond, it cannot be reconnected absent the most extreme effort, and he knows it is over. If she had sex with the new man, he knows that he no longer has any claim on her heart. And when you get right down to it, if she has had sex with another man, he knows that she has rejected him as not alpha enough and not a sufficiently suitable candidate to impregnate her with his seed.

    And in light of the previous discussions on the “ubiquitous frame” thread, this model fits perfectly with serial monogamy, the preferred form of female promiscuity. After all, the woman isn’t acting immorally in her mind. She’s not in love with her husband anymore so it is perfectly fine for her not to have sex with him, and instead have sex with someone else whom she does love and is bonded to. The fact that these occur in succession provides all the moral cover she needs. In her mind she is not acting immorally because after all, she is not slutting around, sexing more than one man at a time.

    That’s why wife cheating is far more threatening than male cheating is.

  130. Dave says:

    @jrc

    As strange as it may seem, what DC describes in dealing with your wife is spot on.

    For a long time, I believed wholeheartedly that this was NOT the way a man treated his wife. I busted my ass to make her haaaaapy. But I have learned over the last two years, especially most recently, is that being indifferent to Jacquie’s emotional tirades or just not taking her BS has made a world of difference in our relationship and marriage.

    Books/blogs like MMSL and The Way Of The Superior Man by David Deida were very helpful to me.

  131. David says:

    @jrc

    As strange as it may seem, what DC describes in dealing with your wife is spot on.

    For a long time, I believed wholeheartedly that this was NOT the way a man treated his wife. I busted my ass to make her haaaaapy. But I have learned over the last two years, especially most recently, is that being indifferent to Jacquie’s emotional tirades or just not taking her BS has made a world of difference in our relationship and marriage.

    Books/blogs like MMSL and The Way Of The Superior Man by David Deida were very helpful to me.
    (dalrock, delete previous message, used wrong email.)

  132. deti says:

    jrc:

    What you’re seeing is the dark underbelly of female sexual nature. She is shit testing you, and hard.

    David Collard has excellent suggestions to get you started. They are designed to show her that her shit tests aren’t going to throw you off. Your frame is one of “so you’re being a bitch. You can be a bitch alone. I won’t put up with it.” If she’s being bitchy, give her some pushback. Tell her you won’t put up with it. After you interrupt her, ignore her, and laugh at her stupid emotional outbursts, start really objectifying her. Grope her sometimes. Pinch her ass. Tell her to bend over again so you can really get a good look.

    After this starts working and you start seeing results, then making it clear that what you want will now start becoming a priority, and that starts with sex. Don’t ever ask for sex. Tell her you are going to have sex, and she is going to give it to you. After that works, start telling her what to do for you and to you. Take charge of your sex life. Direct your sex life to what you want it to be.

    IN all this, remember that you can’t be afraid to offend her or make her mad. Roissy Commandment 16 is “Never be afraid to lose her”. Sure she’ll get mad sometimes. Sure she might withhold sex (for a few days). My new frame on this is: “Well, if you withhold sex, I’ll withhold commitment. And if withholding sex goes on long enough it’s marital abandonment and mental cruelty, both of which I consider grounds for divorce.”

  133. Sunshine says:

    @ jrc
    “You seem to be pretty self-aware and have travelled a road with your husband that I may need to travel with my wife. I would be very interested in learning more details about those stepping stones.”

    The gentlemen here will give you better advice than I ever could, but I might be able to give your woman a pointer or two. One of the early stepping-stones for us was a Bible study book based on Ephesians 5 called “Love and Respect” by Emerson Eggerich (http://loveandrespect.com/). I don’t know if everyone would find it helpful, but the over-arching premise of the book is really about Ephesians 5:33: “However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.” There’s a lot of focus on the fact that the wife MUST respect her husband, full stop no exceptions. Our public library had the book; yours might to if it sounds like something that would be useful to you.

    I can confirm from a woman’s point of view, having been the recipient of such behavior by my husband, that David Collard’s advice on your attitude toward her, and deti’s advice regarding sex are 100% correct.

  134. AnonymousGuy says:

    deti,

    “Well, if you withhold sex, I’ll withhold commitment. And if withholding sex goes on long enough it’s marital abandonment and mental cruelty, both of which I consider grounds for divorce.”

    Yeah, its me again. Biblical grounds for this? Passages and exegesis please.

  135. Stingray says:

    Sunshine,

    I agree with you that a woman must respect her husband. However, I am not sure that one can force respect. We can change our attitude, but it is hard to give respect that has not been earned.

    jrc, please understand that this is not a dig at you. I am willing to bet that your wife believes subconsciously that you respected/admired her more than you did yourself. You may have even unintentionally portrayed this through your actions towards her. A woman cannot respect a man that does not respect himself more than most of the others around him.

  136. Sunshine says:

    “I agree with you that a woman must respect her husband. However, I am not sure that one can force respect. We can change our attitude, but it is hard to give respect that has not been earned.”

    Here’s what I think: he earned the right to her respect when he married her. She might not like a lot of what he does, but a wife MUST respect her husband simply because he is her husband. It’s not conditional for the Christian woman, it’s not based on what he does or on how she feels about what he does.

    must    [muhst] Show IPA auxiliary verb
    1.to be obliged or bound to by an imperative requirement: I must keep my word.
    2.to be under the necessity to; need to: Animals must eat to live.
    3.to be required or compelled to, as by the use or threat of force: You must obey the law.
    4.to be compelled to in order to fulfill some need or achieve an aim: We must hurry if we’re to arrive on time.
    5.to be forced to, as by convention or the requirements of honesty: I must say, that is a lovely hat.

  137. Stingray says:

    Sunshine,

    Ok, one can force one’s actions to be respectful, but it is much the same as attraction. We cannot force attraction and I do not think we can force the feeling of respect. Does that mean a wife, because she does not feel respect should go crazy on her husband? Of course not. As you said, she must act respectful, but this is not the same as having an inherent respect for a man.

  138. Sunshine says:

    Stingray,
    My advice to women can be summed up as follows:

    Less feeling, more obeying.
    :)

  139. Stingray says:

    Agreed. Our actions are incredibly important and those we can control. It does not wipe out how we feel, though. Ignoring feelings can work. It wipes out a symptom, surely, but it does not address the cure.

  140. AnonymousGuy says:

    deti,

    I only assume you’d have this (biblical grounds) because of something you said on that other thread to me. On the other hand, perhaps you told me you knew where I was coming from (as regarding my moral convictions) because you’ve been there, but aren’t still there (at least in the same way).

  141. van Rooinek says:

    The compulsion to “explain” women is a waste of time.
    It will mean nothing when you hit 55 and your t-level evaporates.

    But it means EVERYTHING when you’re 25, can’t get a date, and don’t know why.

  142. Pingback: Respect « On the Rock

  143. deti says:

    Anon Guy:

    I don’t know that withholding sex constitutes abandonment in the biblical sense. I do know that traditionally one of the husband’s benefits of marriage is regular sex at reasonable intervals, i.e. sex on command. If a man cannot even get regular sex from a wife because she willfully refuses to provide it, then why on earth should he marry or remain married to her?

    A husband does not need to “earn” sex from a wife. By virtue of his position as her husband, in my view regular sexual contact with his wife is his right, and her concomitant obligation. If she had not wanted or agreed to that obligation, then she should not have taken it on by marrying.

    If she is willfully refusing to meet her obligations, then he is justified in refusing to carry out his obligations of continued investment and commitment. She has abandoned her obligation to provide regular sex, and therefore has abandoned her husband, and has abandoned her marriage. That abandonment is sufficient, in my view, for the husband to withdraw his investment and commitment, and thus is cause for divorce.

  144. deti says:

    You see, anon guy, this is one of the premier themes of this blog.

    Women want all the benefits of marriage, but none of the obligations.

    Women want the status, the money, the support, the air of legitimacy. But many women then balk and bitch and complain when it is suggested that marriage carries not only benefits, but also burdens and obligations.

    Many women either don’t want to hear that not only will they GET some things in marriage; they will also have to GIVE some things too. Not only do they get to do some things they WANT to do, they will have to do things they MUST do.

    Many women also complain because their decision to marry forces women to make clear choices that cannot be easily undone and that have very real consequences. Many of them don’t want to live with their choices, they don’t want adverse consequences, and they don’t want the idea of marital obligation.

  145. jrc says:

    I don’t think you guys are quite getting it. I have never been very beta. I bought my wife flowers once that I remember during our almost 16 year marriage. I would call her on her hypocrisy if she got upset about something I did but then didn’t like that I would get upset about something similar she did. When we dated, I ended the official aspect (boyfriend status) after about two months. When she would nag me about dishes or cleaning, I would usually tell her in some way to stop nagging and usually not do it. I grope her all the time. I grab her and kiss her when I feel like it. I’ve been reading about PUA and game stuff since late 2009. I’ve incorporated some aspects of game, or more like just trying to remove any anti-game actions that I notice (usually non-verbal supplication). In fact, my problem may have been too little beta (not that I’m an alpha, just that the ratios may have been off). The problem is me feeling that she is morally worse than me. She was/is not trustworthy. How do you deal with the contempt and bitterness? I’ve been to MMSL, HUS, Roissy, Badger, Vox, CMDN, Yohami, Keoni, etc. I’m not necessarily opposed to game, at least some aspects, but I no longer feel she is even worth the effort (except for the not being a chump stuff). As a Christian who believes the Bible, I cannot divorce her. In fact, I’m supposed to love (agape) her, and I know that doesn’t mean catering to her whims. But I also seem to be unable to move forward in a way that would be building a life together. Half the time I look at her I see deceit/betrayal/cruelty/hypocrisy/arrogance/etc. I am looking for biblical advice on how to deal with these toxic emotions, not how to game her into being a better wife. How to move on emotionally if I don’t get the repentance from her that seems necessary. How to still be a father without letting these bad feelings poison my relationship with my children while still in the same house as their mother.

    Thanks for the Love and Respect and David Deida references. I will check those out.

  146. deti says:

    jrc, June 8, 11:49 am

    I have been exactly where you are. My comments and then a question.

    I came into my marriage 16 years ago as a simpering beta and only in the last year alpha’d up some. I’ve learned a lot. I came into my marriage with preconceived notions of how it would be, and was ready to meet my “obligations” to do whatever it took to make her happy. I was met with dishonesty, poor treatment, disrespect and contempt. I found out why when I went to Roissy — I was not being the man in our marriage. Even worse, everything I had been taught about male-female relationships, courting, dating, sex and marriage was just about as wrong as it could be. Everyone was wrong: parents, teachers, counselors, Scout leaders, pastors — especially pastors.

    So what do you do biblically with toxic feelings about your wife?

    1. “There is none righteous, no, not one.” I am just as fallen and sinful as she (but that DOES NOT make me responsible, to God or anyone else, for her conduct.)

    2. “Take captive of it, and submit it to Christ.” Pray for the will and strength to capture the thoughts, catch yourself thinking or feeling them, and give them over to God. Doesn’t mean you don’t ever feel them. It does mean that He will help you through it.

    3. Know that your wife will stand before God and give an account for her conduct and the way she treated you; and that He will take care of it.

    Maybe your wife is morally worse than you are. Maybe she isn’t trustworthy. Perhaps she can be trustworthy again. Make her prove her trustworthiness. If she is Christian and holds to the same beliefs, she ought to be willing to submit to what you need. If she refuses, then you have to find other ways to learn to live together biblically.

    None of this means you trust her again, or even that you love her.

    What repentance do you need to see from her? An apology? Changed behavior? Sincerely expressed remorse?

  147. Looking Glass says:

    @jrc:

    I’ll use a point I’ve made about affairs a few times to illustrate your issue. When it comes to affairs, the injured party ends up in a position of possibilities: 1) You’ve made choices inside the marriage that increased the possibility of an affair or 2) You made a very bad marriage decision. (Note: this doesn’t absolve, in any way, the party that cheated, this is just an analysis of the injured party’s possibilities and options) You seem to running into the possibility that #2 is where you’re at. I.e. you probably should have never married her.

    Part of MMSL & Athol’s work is the very basic premise: you can’t fix your partner, you can only make yourself better. That’s going to be your issue. You really can’t “fix” her, as only she can do that with God’s help. You can tell her the path forward, but she’s the one that has to be willing to walk it.

    While I would suggest a bit more soul searching, specifically what actions she does that set off your responses on the topic, and specifically address those issues long before making any major changes, but you may end up needing to eventually remove her from your home. (This doesn’t mean a Divorce on your part, but could very well end up there, which means be well prepared legally) There’s no easy roads out, especially without a set of 3rd parties that could help with corrective action.

    I do think there’s probably some other things you could do to enforce certain expectations (it’s a little hard to say since we’re talking a bit in abstracts), but we all have to remember that a person makes their own choices. All you can do is limit the choice options somewhat. If they insist on a course, there’s little you can do to shield them from the consequences. And, at that point, you really shouldn’t.

  148. Sunshine says:

    jrc,
    OK, I see that I did not understand your situation, thank you for clarifying. I’m wondering…does your wife understand that there is a problem, and if so, does she want things to get better?
    Does she feel any hope from you that she could do something to get back into your good graces? If she feels like you absolutely hate her, it might be hard for her to make any effort to repent, in which case you guys are kinda stuck until one of you is willing to make a move. Somebody has to go first, you know?

  149. AnonymousGuy says:

    deti,

    Thanks.

    “She has abandoned her obligation to provide regular sex, and therefore has abandoned her husband, and has abandoned her marriage. That abandonment is sufficient, in my view, for the husband to withdraw his investment and commitment, and thus is cause for divorce.”

    Well, you have no Biblical warrant for saying that. Jesus gives one reason and that’s not it.

    Looking what you wrote later, we seem to be in similar situations. I’ve been married 13 years, and my wife was similar to yours. I got MMSL and things have changed dramatically (still a ways to go, but). The thing is, as much as I know she is obligated to fulfill her duties (I Cor. 7), I could not convince myself that it would have been OK to divorce her. I had nothing in the Bible that would give me the surety that by doing this I would not be living in unrepentant sin – and hence, would be able to expect nothing but God’s wrath come judgment day.

    So it was sink or swim. By God’s grace, we’re swimming – even after just a couple months this took place. I know other men might not be so fortunate. In any case, I was willing to stick it out as long as it took – even if that meant years (I did marry her, and that was my choice, for better or worse). If persons in the manosphere are going to make the case that women are not being biblical, we need to be biblical.

    So no divorce on her side for physical abuse or porn either. In all these cases, the behavior is not justified, but neither is divorce.

  150. Anonymous Reader says:

    jrc, part of the wave of emotion you are feeling very likely has to do with a sense of betrayal. A deep sense of betrayal, because it could well be that you have been doing things that you were told would make her love you, and instead did the opposite. Now you have learned that “sugar, spice, everything nice” was utter hogwash, and you have come to grips with some of what any woman is capable of – and you feel like you are sleeping with an enemy.

    First off, you aren’t the first man to get hit with this. Not by a long shot. I’ve been there. There are other men on this site who have had the same experience. It is pretty common, I suspect. One thing you can do, when the anger just wells up like lava, is to go somewhere else. Seriously. Go get a coffee, go to the library, go to the back yard and start chopping at weeds, go to the garage and start wiping out spiderwebs, go somewhere and do something. Go to the gym and lift. Burn off the cortisol physically, or let it float away, as suits you best. Consciously reflect, from time to time, on something good that she does – if nothing else, she puts up with you and your bad habits, right? Do not let the negative facts overwhelm you, because that will wear you down. The facts of women are what they are, but there are good sides as well, you just can’t see them clearly right now.

    You can’t control her mind. You can control yours. From time to time, when you are not angry, think about her behavior, and work out one – just one – behavior that is a key issue. Does she yell at you a lot? Maybe she’s snarky in public? Tears you down in front of the children? Pick one behavior that is seriously contributing to your anger, and that’s the one she should learn to control. Because you can’t control her mind, but you can get her to control her behavior.

    Do not fear. Do not fear her temper displays, do not fear her cold-shoulder, do not fear that she might leave. Lion tamers famously refuse to display fear – if the big cats smell fear, then they will very possibly attack. Tell yourself that if she leaves, so be it. You will live your life as you see fit no matter what. She may entertain fantasies of leaving, she may talk around the topic of divorce, but most women have a greater fear of being alone, of being abandoned, than men do.

    If you’ve been beta for a long time, expect any leadership by you to lead to more angry flareups.
    Do not bend to anger. Most men in the modern world are numb to women’s anger; we see so much of it, from traffic flipoffs to tantrums in stores to personal lives, that we ignore it. Don’t ignore it. Study it dispassionately – does she wave the left hand more than the right? Put yourself in the mindset of a scientist examining a newly discovered primitive tribe, and her anger as some odd ritual. The bemused, dispassionate, slightly contemptuous attitude is so far away from the reaction she wants that sometimes it will stop the whole tantrum.

    The Bible calls you to lead. You need to pick an area, and lead in that area, and telling her clearly that some behavior – yelling, disrespectful in front of others, whatever – is no longer acceptable & it is time for her to stop. Do not ask her to stop it. Tell her it is time she stopped it. The next time the bad behavior happens, take her aside to a bit of privacy, and calmly but firmly tell her “You know I do not like this behavior. Stop it, now”. Don’t be fazed if she makes a public scene; women are more afraid of public censure than we men are, and so any such scene only makes her look bad, not you provided you remain calm.

    Reflect on the good side of her. Exercise regularly to burn off cortisol. Don’t stay in proximity when you are really angry. Pick one behavior and start leading her to stop it. Most women willl respond to this, although it can get much worse before it gets better…it willl get better.

  151. jrc says:

    Just one disagreement. I don’t see the Bible saying that husbands need to lead. I see it say that husbands ARE the head and wives submit. Notice the action onus is on the wife not the husband. I believe this is another subtle feminist corruption. The husband is the head, period. He is not commanded to lead (unless there’s a verse I’m unaware of). The wife is commanded to submit, even if the husband is not a Christian and not leading.

  152. deti says:

    Bravo, AR. I needed to read that “Do not fear” paragraph again. A married man has to get himself to a place where he is not afraid of his wife and her overwrought emotional displays. She can threaten all she wants. She can threaten to leave, entertain her little fantasies, and talk about divorce all she wants. But if push comes to shove, and if I really have to do it, I can and I will go on without her. I will live my life with or without her.

  153. Anonymous Reader says:

    jrc, I’ m no Bible scholar, so I could be wrong about any command to lead. Anonymous Aged 70 posted a while back, when he was Anonymous Aged 68, to the effect that he’d read the entire Bible and never found any where that men are supposed to tame their wives. There are some proverbs that speak directly to this: “Better a tent on the roof than a house with a contentious woman”. So I’ll punt on this one.

    There’s another angle that I got a while back from Athol’s MMSL blog. When a woman has decided to leave a relationship, she often starts self-improvement. Losing weight. Buying new and different clothing. She’s mentally decided to check out of one relationship and is prepping to start a new one. So…commit yourself to simple exercise at home, maybe after work but before eating. Do it systematically: X number of situps every day for a week, then increase, Y number of pushups a day for a week, then increase. Don’t make a big deal of it. Heck, don’t even mention it to her – do it in the bedroom, and when/if she stumbles over you, just casually say “I need to get into better shape, for my health” and let it drop. You have to commit to this as a deliberate program, can’t just do it for a week then quit, so be sure you can make the time.

    Now this program works in three ways.
    1. It feeds her hamster – it’s what she would possibly be doing, if she was planning to walk out. And since women often project their own thinking onto men, this will induce uncertainty, maybe even a bit of dread – “why is he doing this? what’s his intent?” – and as noted starts her rationalization running in a couple of directions. I have come to believe that it’s normal for men and women to take their partner for granted, although we manifest it differently. The ambiguity of this exercise program should lead her to consider your value to her, unconsciously perhaps.

    2. It increases your circulating testosterone. There are plenty of studies on Medline that demonstrate an increase in testosterone in men rather shortly after an increase in regular physical exercise. This in turn will help improve your muscle mass, probably will help you to stand up straighter (and that makes you look taller to her), eventually will reduce abdominal fat (which in turn will reduce circulating estrogens) and generally make you “more manly”. Increased testosterone may also change the way you smell, slightly. That in turn will speak to her pheremonally.

    3. It makes you more desirable to other women. When your wife sees other women noticing you, maybe even flirting with you, this provides “social proofing” – women want men that other women want. We all have seen this as young men. I’m not saying have an affair, I’m saying that when your wife sees other women find you attractive, unless she’s totally done she’ll find herself wanting to keep you around, and may start mate-guarding behaviors – that’s another step in getting her to change behaviors you find obnoxious. Nothing so crass as “if you really loved me, you’d ….” either. In fact you should never utter those words – they are whiny-beta talk.

  154. bskillet81 says:

    @Anonymous Reader

    Anonymous Aged 70 posted a while back, when he was Anonymous Aged 68, to the effect that he’d read the entire Bible and never found any where that men are supposed to tame their wives.

    This is close:

    Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church…
    –Eph. 5:25-29

    Just as Christ died for the church, and washed her with water and the word, so the husband is told to love his wife. “So husbands ought also to love their own wives…” The washing part, of course, never ever gets mentioned with Churchians start telling husbands “You gotta love her as Christ loves the church That means no matter what she does, you have to put up with it and not say anything or do anything about it.”

  155. Suz says:

    jrc,
    How can a person be the “head” of the marriage if he’s not leading? That would be a marriage that isn’t going anywhere. Stagnation, no growth. My guess is that in Biblical times, there was no need to say explicitly, “Husbands must lead;” men either led of failed. Everybody knew that. Thanks to technology, today nearly anyone can coast through life not leading and not being led. This wasn’t the case two thousand years ago.

  156. To obey surely implies being led.

    Led is rather a dramatic word. I always think of a man in a pith helmet waving a machete as he leads people through a jungle. The reality in a contemporary marriage is more the husband setting the basic tone, making major strategic decisions. It is rarely dramatic or the barking out of orders.

    My wife doesn’t do it any more, but the best response to a threat to leave is, “You know where the front door is. Send me a postcard.”

    I am too lazy to post this on the correct thread, but thanks Deti for the remarks on men creating this comfortable society and the staggering ingratitude of some women.

  157. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti, Sunshine, others: what do women want? Maybe a master mechanic (audio quality not the best, sorry)

  158. Anonymous Reader says:

    On the other hand, maybe a hot, juicy burger from the Burger Man is needed?

  159. Sunshine says:

    “Deti, Sunshine, others: what do women want?”
    That’s easy. We want our husbands to pull our hair and tell us that we are a little circus pony named Blaze.

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  161. gunslingergregi says:

    Emma the Emo says:
    June 7, 2012 at 5:10 pm
    About asking a girl to tattoo your name on her ass…
    Would any of the men here do it? If you’d answer no, then think about why and apply that to women. No relationship is guaranteed to last, so tattooing a name of the man whos behavior I can’t control is not a good idea, even if he’s the betaest beta and swears he will always be here with me.””””””””””””’

    The point that is being made is surprise!!
    Men and woman are different.
    and no guys don’t have to compete with their woman to see who can be the most equal and do the dishes the same number of times and cook and clean and change diapers or do any type of housewife type work wash clothes iron. none of that.
    So yea really that is an excellent idea for guys who are looking to get married instead of the woman getting another tramp stamp she might as well get your name and then owns this tattoo on her ass.

    When i get home my wife gonna get her first tattoo he he he

    funny story it looks like you already have a tattoo on your arm there.

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  163. imnobody says:

    “Deti, Sunshine, others: what do women want?”

    Who cares? I don’t see women obsessed with the question: “What do men want?”. But, since Freud asked the first question, society has wondered about women’s wants and has rushed to give women everything they want so they are happy. The outcome? Women becoming more miserable than ever.

    Personally, I care about “What do I want?”. And a society must care about: “What does the society need?” Women (and men) have to be told what they need to do to work in a society and be told to be happy with that. Period.

    Not in our decadent society, where every personal whim (especially if it’s a woman’s one) is considered a inalienable right.

  164. imnobody says:

    It’s just as bad if the wife has had a number of sex partners before marriage. One of those partners is her superalpha, her sexual gold standard. Every woman with a sexual past has one. Superalpha is the benchmark against whom she measures (heh) all future sex partners — whether or not she wants or intends to do so. She had the perfect sex partner; she “imprinted” sexually on him; and superalpha is all she can remember. She still pines away for him,

    To be fair, this can also happen to men. For example, my first gf is the superalpha female for me.

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