Submitting to the patriarchy in their heads

Don’t miss Laura Grace Robins’ excellent post Christian Manning up.  Just a teaser (emphasis mine):

You can’t insist on being an independent career woman and take on the values of the modern world yet also shiver into an 1800 timid, Christian girl when it comes to dating.  He insists these women are not feminists, but as my readers know there are also sheep that insist they are not wolves. A career woman with a cross around her neck does not negate her feminist choices.

As I mentioned the discussion on my own post on the topic, it strikes me that these suddenly passive Christian husband searchers are being too clever by half.  They loudly proclaim that they are dutifully awaiting the orders of their Father.  In doing so they are creating a faux patriarchy, substituting God for their earthly father (and later their husband) because submitting to the authority of the latter would have the practical effect of constraining them.  To borrow a phrase which has become popular around here, they are submitting to the patriarchy in their heads.

Of course, all God needs to do is serve them with a duly notarized and processed command telling them whom to marry and they will gladly follow. I presume they expect it to transpire something like this:

God’s Process Server:  Are you Cindy Christlike?

Cindy Christlike:  Why yes, I am.  Why do you ask?

God’s Process Server:  (puts papers in her hand)  You are hereby commanded to stop pining away, quit your high status but surprisingly unfulfilling career, marry that man over there and start making babies.

Cindy Christlike:  Well, um, what kind of car does he drive?  Is he the secret mulitmillionaire hunky handyman I have prayed for?…

[God’s Process Server becomes impatient]

Um, sorry, old habit.  I’ll get right on that.  How long before I dust off the Fireproof script and threaten divorce so that multiple worthy men compete for my heart?

God’s Process Server:  Wait at least 3 years.  4 or 5 is better.  Ideally you should wait until your youngest child is out of diapers.

Absent that, many will no doubt follow their tingle only to blame God for steering them wrong with regard to excuse #6.

This entry was posted in Choice Addiction, Church Apathy About Divorce, Feminists, Finding a Spouse, Fireproof. Bookmark the permalink.

123 Responses to Submitting to the patriarchy in their heads

  1. Lori says:

    Raising godly daughter in this day and age is tough. All my daughters want is to be married, be godly, submissive wives, and have babies yet they are shamed, even by other Christians to admit this. They do anyways, not caring what others think…

  2. TikkTok says:

    X2 with Lori. Especially since there are WAY more female haters out there than I ever imagined. I kinda miss the rock I was under……

  3. Anonymous Reader says:

    TikkTok
    Especially since there are WAY more female haters out there than I ever imagined

    Well, there’s way more hateful females out there than you likely ever imagined. Liz Jones may seem an extreme example of modern womanhood, but there are quite a few men who have encountered women a whole lot like her.

    Most men don’t start out wary, suspicious, distrustful of women. We have to be taught that. Guess who teaches us?

  4. TikkTok says:

    @ Anonymous- I’m sure. 😦 I just had no idea about all the hate on both sides of the fence. It sure is eye-opening, though. And sad. And discouraging- particularly to think of what kind of world this means my kids will be venturing out into.

    I am a big fan of forgiveness. In my world, that doesn’t mean not remembering wrongs and not being cautious- just being willing to not paint everyone with the same brush, I guess. I don’t think that hanging on to that kind of negativity does the person any good, and can prevent them from finding or otherwise experiencing happiness.

    But ya. A little respect and decency can go a long way……..

  5. Just1X says:

    TikkTok, the problem for men is, by the time you realise she’s a sociopath, it is too late. She gets the house, kids. half the pension. Maybe uses a false DV or rape accusation and a restraining order on you.

    Does this sound like a game worth playing?

    What’s worse is, that men are seeing what females really can be like…how do get them to sigh up for marriage after that?

    Sharon Osborne and her coven of harpies on the view showed the world what modern women think of men. Men who find out about it, don’t forget what little girls are made of

  6. TikkTok says:

    @just1x- the problem, I think, is that if it’s considered to be a game (by either party) that’s a problem. I like the idea of filters (and honestly thought that the majority of people used them), until; dunno, maybe there should also be mandatory pre-nups that spell everything out (and that’s not saying that as the couple ages and life changes that they can’t revist the contract and make adjustments). No idea if a legally enforceable contract would help this or not…..

    I don’t watch any talk shows, fwiw, so I have no idea what Sharon Osborn and her harpies ever talk about.

    I don’t blame anyone for not jumping onto a bandwagon when they’ve had a bad experience. Some people genuinely are fine with being alone (which doesn’t necessarily mean lonley, either); some people (of both sexes) go from bad relationship to bad relationship to bad relationship, never stopping to understand their particular role in the situation (even if that means just getting into it while having hope for a better outcome).

    While there may be one person in the relationship who actually did do harm, just like Dalrock’s #6 (iir) the other person in the relationship also has a role in having chosen (or agreed to, or was brow-beaten into it) to get married, too. It think it’s much easier to place blame than to acknowledge responsibility, for both parties.

    Obviously, I have no answers. There used to be a time when people honored their promises and did the things they said they would do and there were actual consequences, even if it was just social……..

  7. zed says:

    @TikkTok –
    Good comments. I think it is a very good sign that women are beginning to speak up, acknowledge that there is a problem, and that blaming men and denying any responsibility by women is not going to fix it. This has been a change that I have seen in the past year.

    the problem, I think, is that if it’s considered to be a game (by either party) that’s a problem.

    And there is one of the foundations of the disconnect between older MRAs and younger men who are advocates of “Game’. If you aren’t familiar with that controversy, it would be well worth your while to follow some of the major discussions – start with Gucci Little Piggy or In Mala Fide, both linked from this blog. Absolutely go over to A Voice for Men and see what Paul Elam and Frost are arguing about.

    No idea if a legally enforceable contract would help this or not…..

    It can’t do any good unless the legal system actually enforces it. Both white knighting, mangina, so-con judges and lib-tard activists look for any reason to tear up any pre-nup that gives the man any protections or advantages.

    I don’t watch any talk shows, fwiw, so I have no idea what Sharon Osborn and her harpies ever talk about.

    This would be useful for you to understand and grasp the impact. A few weeks ago, a woman drugged her husband and cut off his penis and threw it in the garbage disposer. The woman’s talk show on which Osborn was one of the stars had women not even bothering to disguise their glee over this, and Osborn talked about how “delightful” she thought it was.

    Now, in order for this to really make sense, it must be compared and contrasted to the reaction to Ben & Jerry’s whimsically named new flavor – “Schweddy Balls.” This bit of juvenile humor (characteristic of Saturday Night Live, which had a skit that the name came from) inspired some mom’s group to mount a campaign to get and keep it out of the grocery stores’ freezers, but the widespread celebration of a woman drugging and mutilating her own husband drew not a word from women.

    Interesting comparison, don’t you think? An ice cream flavor named “Schweddy Balls” is horrible, but mutilating men is “delightful.”

    It’s pretty telling about what modern American mothers think of men that they worry a whole lot more about what is tucked away in their grocers’ freezers that what any of their daughters could have seen on daytime TV that day.

    While there may be one person in the relationship who actually did do harm, just like Dalrock’s #6 (iir) the other person in the relationship also has a role in having chosen (or agreed to, or was brow-beaten into it) to get married,

    Well, I have been beaten with some pretty nasty brows over the past 40 years or so, and I have never dated anyone that I wanted to spend the rest of my life married to. It pretty much boils down to what unpleasant name you would would want to be called least. I can live with “Peter Pan” better than I can with “Deadbeat Dad” or “Inmate #24601”.

    There used to be a time when people honored their promises and did the things they said they would do and there were actual consequences, even if it was just social……..

    Some of us are trying to bring those consequences back – no matter how much the Slutwalkers hate it.

  8. zed says:

    I don’t watch any talk shows, fwiw, so I have no idea what Sharon Osborn and her harpies ever talk about.

    New to the manosphere, eh? It’s been talked about a whole lot since it happened. What Sharon, and the typical western women on “The Talk”, talk about is how “delightful” it was that some woman drugged her husband, cut off his penis, and threw it down the garbage disposal.

    Now, compare the total lack of reaction by the women audience to celebrating mutilating a man, to the national campaign they waged to keep Ben & Jerry’s whimsically-named flavor “Schweddy Balls” off the shelves.

    It’s pretty easy to see what matters to women, and the idea of women carving up men is much more acceptable to them than their kids seeing a bit of juvenile humor in the ice cream freezer.

  9. TikkTok says:

    @TFH: “Stop right there. The hate is overwhelmingly from women.”

    Really? Have you been reading the comments on this blog? I’m sure there is plenty of hate in the to go around. I’m not saying there are not women who hate men- maybe I’m in the wrong place, but there sure seems to be a lot of men who hate women here.

    In the world at large, there seem to be a lot of women who are doing things that can be interpreted as hateful towards men. If you asked them, they would probably tell you that they don’t hate men, all the while having no real idea how their actions are being interpreted by men.

    I think hate has intent- meaning: often a deliberate act; more than just a feeling. Yes, a woman can act in hateful ways and not have intent. Ignorance and action don’t =necessarily mean hate, imo; for both genders. People are usually products of their environments (particularly how they grew up), and if a person grows up with a normal kind of behavior (like a mother making negative statements about men and/or goes out of her way to consistently demonize them; a man who beats his wife and children, for example) they are not going to know that behavior is wrong, nor make any corrections to it.

    What are you accusing me of? What responsibility do you think I am trying to avoid?

    I didn’t say men need to forgive. Women absolutely need to forgive, too. Keeping track of and tallying “wrongs” doesn’t do anyone any good, no matter what their gender is. People who are in relationships particularly need to be forgiving- BOTH people need to forgive and overlook. I, personally, do not want to carry around a bunch of baggage. Baggage often gets in way of being able to see and experience the good stuff, imo.

    This gets back to the whole mindset of people in general that their shit don’t stink and that there are no consequences for their actions. How does painting me with the “woman brush” accomplish anything? You are making assumptions of what I am thinking simply because of gender, and that’s not going to do anyone any favors. You might be right 9 out of 10 times (but not in this case), but I personally, would not want to jump to assumptions every time and miss the one time the assumption might be wrong….. 😀

  10. zed says:

    oops, I had a comment disappear, didn’t feel like retying the whole thing, responded to one issue, and then the first comment came back.

    (cue Twilight Zone theme song)

  11. TikkTok says:

    @THF- gosh, can you read? Where did I say that only men need to forgive? 😆

    I have no idea what most churches do these days. Do you go to church? Where are your opinions coming from?

    And sermonizine? 😆 I’m honored. Do men sermonize?

  12. Anonymous says:

    My Ex (not “haaappy”) demanded I do the Fireproof thing and “maybe” it might save our marriage. Saw the video, read the book (which is more detailed, supporting marriage as a commitment and not a “relationship”) and put effort in. “Oh, I wanted you to be more like the doctor,” she said (not having read the book or watched the movie closely). F*ck it, I said. (Ex has now found out about the world of pump-and-dump and over-40 SMV.)

  13. TikkTok says:

    @Zed- thanks for the breakdown. And people of any gender actually watch that stuff? Had no idea about the ice cream thing, either. I heard rumblings of something to do with ice cream, but hey, I say if the business markets something and it sells, oh well (I’d probably buy it if it was a flavor I liked :lol:). Juvenile humor has its place; as with anything, when you have kids, filters need to be in place.

  14. Sweetsassygood says:

    I just stumbled across the site; I was blown away by the wife who put her husband down on TV.
    I am considered attractive, funny and bright and would love to be remarried. After raising 3 sons, and having been married and unfortunately left by a man with some issues that could not be resolved…I still long for that love we all need. To put down a husband just b/c he is not “perfect” is incredible, just plain incredible. Men are great! men can be quite funny and generally speaking they are as good as us ladies! I have my masters in Counseling and long to meet a good guy.
    Gimmee’ gimmee’ a cute, clean guy who flosses his teeth and can sweep me away old time style..
    Girl! you do not deserve this man!

  15. AmStrat says:

    women: Men are Evil! Men are Evil! Men are Evil!

    *It is then proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that women cause 99.99% of hate, Men are the loving and forgiving sex (in general, all outliers even seen on TV are the only outliers), women, even supposedly “Christian women” tend to be selfish awful people who routinely kidnap and steal from Men through divorce, child support, and denying Men to see their own children*

    women: Men and women are BOTH bad, and we need to admit we were BOTH wrong in EQUAL quantities. Gosh, people suck, huh? **underbreath** but I’ll forgive only after YOU do.

  16. AmStrat says:

    And no, it is not a freudian slip, you need to earn that capital letter.

  17. Guardial says:

    Anonymous Reader posted on November 6, 2011 at 2:00 pm
    Most men don’t start out wary, suspicious, distrustful of women. We have to be taught that. Guess who teaches us?

    Preach on, brother!

    Time to post a link to Marky’s Marks archive of ZenPriests’s Hate Bounces.
    Hate
    Bounces
    by ZenPriest.

    Misogynists are not born they are made. Once, a long time ago when
    the world was young, I loved women with all my heart and soul….

  18. TikkTok says:

    @Zed- thanks for those sites to check out. I get frustrated with blogger sites because they are doggy and don’t load well for me.

    I don’t know if it’s fair to assume/say that “it’s” the mindset of women- certainly we can say that it’s the reaction of the women in the audience (and who are the producers? Is it a live show, where things aren’t edited?). I know a good many women who don’t watch any tv and certainly wouldn’t be watching those shows just because there are other things that have priority in their lives. Unfortunately, it’s often the most verbal (usually the ones who feel they have been wronged or have been “the most” wronged) that get the attention because the others simply don’t care.

    Name calling is never beneficial, imo. And I would hazard a guess and say the consequences are pretty predictable.

    I think venting is good; it might even save lives. 😀

    I see a lot of hateful comments; a lot of assumptions (which are probably true much of the time). It would be nice to see productive solutions suggested.

    Yep, definitely new to the manosphere. There’s not a lot of stuff I can stomach reading (on either side of the fence) for any length of time; just because it’s rarely productive……

  19. Stephen says:

    I remember my first year of college living in the dorm with a genuine, natural alpha male. I was so behind on the social skills curve all I could do was watch him operate in awe. Our dorm had a solid population of evangelical Christian women who went around with the usual holier than thou act. I told my roommate he didn’t stand a chance with one of them in particular who was smart, gorgeous and the daughter of the head minister of the largest Baptist church in our state.

    He laughed and said he loved Christian girls. He told me the “god voice” in their heads did half his work for him. They would always “ask the Lord” if they should sleep with him or if he was just too far gone to be redeemed, etc. For some strange reason “God” always told these young ladies that they should give my roommate a chance and also take the opportunity to witness to him as well. Well he invited her over the next night, asked her out on a date (this was an era when young people still posed at going on dates, though the hook up culture was already in full swing, just the labels were different). She responded almost on queue “Oh, well let me pray on it and see what He says I should do, you aren’t a godly man and my father would be furious.”

    Sure enough, the following night she came back over to our room, told my roommate that she’d spent the night talking with God and praying on it. God had informed her she should “date” him and he asked me a little later to stay with a friend in another room. This Christian girl left the next morning, scowling at me for having seen her leaving our room. She told me that I was wrong to have a swimsuit calendar on the wall. I told her she’d forgotten one of her socks. The look on her face when she came back in to retrieve it was priceless.

    What was really sad was that all of these Christian ladies told the Christian guys that they were waiting until marriage. These guys were genuinely celibate and waited like puppies for the happy day. They didn’t know that this girl and most of her friends didn’t think it counted if they slept with a non-Christian man. I thought for a long time that this was just a particular population of Christian women, but my encounters with both Christian evangelical women and even LDS women have confirmed my experience, with few exceptions.

  20. zed says:

    there seem to be a lot of women who are doing things that can be interpreted as hateful towards men. If you asked them, they would probably tell you that they don’t hate men, all the while having no real idea how their actions are being interpreted by men.

    But, wait…. I thought women were the “relationship experts” – you know, so much more empathetic and tuned into to emotions than men are. /snark

    So, which kills you more dead? Being crushed by a lumbering clueless elephant, or gored by an angry rhinoceros?

    “They aren’t being malicious, just stupid” doesn’t bring anything back from the dead.

    And, frankly, I think stupid is actually more dangerous to be around than malicious – a malicious person only harms you when they think they can gain from it. A stupid person is dangerous to just be around – like standing on a hill during a lightening storm.

    Your excuses have all been brought up before, TikkTok. No one falls for them any more.

  21. Lavazza says:

    zed: “And, frankly, I think stupid is actually more dangerous to be around than malicious – a malicious person only harms you when they think they can gain from it. A stupid person is dangerous to just be around – like standing on a hill during a lightening storm.”

    Its like the story of the French president who had two candidates to chose from as a prime minister. One honest, but stupid and maladroit, one extremely intelligent but totally corrupted. He chose the latter saying “la corruption, ca se soigne” (or something similar meaning that corruption is more manageable than stupidity).

  22. rmaxd says:

    @tiktok

    Before you start throwing terms around like hate, TFH spells it out for you, take his advice & the other commentors

    I dont see any hate, & as for you’re men need to forgive … for what exactly …

    maybe you need to recheck the women are some sort of puritanical virgin, attitude & start talking some sense

    What exactly is your point … do you even have a point, apart from whining about comments you disagree with & label them as men hating women

    I’m seeing this the manosphere is full of man hating women crap, specifically by women who cant use logic to save their lives, ie chels lara etc.

    Guess what tiktok, lara etc., this is the manosphere, not the butthurt mangina, or illogical all girl trollosphere

    When men specifically go all out to hate women, they ARE called out on it

    What the average mangina & the average hamster troll ie dubiouswoman etc., are responding to are simply men who have gone through the mill in one way or another, ie bad relationships or full blown divorce

    They’re simply speaking their mind, not hating on women, of course you cant expect a pussy worshipping mangina, or a men worship me in real life, so im not like that average hamster woman troll on here, to accept that basic fact

    Seriously i get a bit more then pissed at how easy alot of the commentators are on the manginas & women who cluelessly pass through the manosphere …

    Now compare the average comment in the manosphere, against the absolute hate against men & women who want to have families on feminist sites, & come back here & try to complain about men hating women …

  23. TikkTok says:

    @thf: “Anyone who remotely claims that male callousness towards women is even a tiny fraction of the callousness of women towards men, has no clue.”

    No idea. Would love to see some data on that.

    “There are tons of men who want to excuse women of serious wrongs, but no women who want to do this for the average man.” There you go, making assumptions again. 😆 What’s your definition of excuse?

    A friend of mine (married 20 plus years; primarily SAHM mom homeschooling her two teenage sons; one has been off to college for a few years- I say primarily because there were times she would work part-time to help pay down debt) within the last year found her husband cheating with a married co-worker (who were both in public government positions). Both her husband and his affair partner were fired from their jobs. My friend and her husband were separated (he had to find another job in another county which was too far away to commute to); have gone to counseling and are now living under the same roof again, even though he drives an hour plus one way to get to his new job. How would you define this situation?

    “You have a loooot of learning to do. “

    People benefit from observing and learning. I am no exception. Some topics are more interesting and personally applicable than others, though. I don’t think real learning can happen when only a single perspective is given.

    “You need to read for the next 30 days before commenting” 😆

    I have been reading, and for longer, and nearly all the posts. The comments are time consuming, so I have to do my reading sporadically when I have time. I admit, too, that I mentally filter what sticks with me; for example, argument for the sake of argument and the lack of reason or ability to be rational don’t generally stick with me. People get entrenched in their perspectives, and while that is their prerogative, closed mindedness isn’t appealing to me because it’s too limiting.

    Iir, I haven’t ever responded to anything you’ve commented on. Some people like to mash buttons for the sake of argument; I generally don’t respond to those kinds of comments, because that’s exactly the reaction that the person is looking for. I personally don’t think there can be any productive conversation happening, and it usually results in attack after attack. Fwiw, ymmv 🙂

    FTR, I don’t think women paying alimony is a crime (and I’m not a fan of it {alimony} at all in most cases).

    “Women just don’t have a capacity of reciprocity, and seeing what being a responsible adult is about.” It would be nice to see you add “in my experience.” I’m not sure that there are ever any absolutes except for death.

    Sorry- there I go again, sermonizing. 😆

  24. Jason Rennie says:

    “Absent that, many will no doubt follow their tingle only to blame God for steering them wrong with regard to excuse #6.”

    It is depressing how likely you are successfully being a prophet with much of that post Dalrock😦

    Your last line struck me as although likely true an indication in practice of just how ungodly such women are and how unseriously they take their professed christianity.

    Jason

  25. rmaxd says:

    @tfh

    This is pretty funny, could you plse elaborate on how voting allowed women to destroy marriage, im not sure how the two are connected …

    “Once women start voting, the institution of marriage is destroyed in mere decades. It survived for centuries before that, but women voting destroys it very quickly.”

  26. rmaxd says:

    “FTR, I don’t think women paying alimony is a crime (and I’m not a fan of it {alimony} at all in most cases).”

    ok tiktok now you’re just trolling …

  27. TikkTok says:

    @zed- no excuses here. It’s just not one sided, though. We totally agree- dead is still dead. The why may matter in some regard, but the end result is still the end result. (Like, who cares how a person got pregnant or fired from a job- you still have the result.)

    And I totally agree that stupid is more dangerous than malicious. At least with malicious, there is a brain working in there somewhere. I don’t think ignorance is the same as stupidity. Ignorance is a lack of exposure- for example, a young person whose actions and exposure to experiences is ignorant. They can change their ignorance by gaining experience.

    I am pretty sure there is no fix for stupid…..

  28. rmaxd says:

    @tiktok
    Trolling for the sake of trolling … his whole posts a massive pointless troll … lol

    ““There are tons of men who want to excuse women of serious wrongs, but no women who want to do this for the average man.” There you go, making assumptions again.😆 What’s your definition of excuse?”

    The rest of the posts basic troll gold …. lol

  29. RL says:

    Affirmative action advanced and hypergamy induced career women whine that there is a lack of educated men, oh, no!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2058127/Intelligent-women-forced-dumb-educated-man-marry.html

  30. TikkTok says:

    @rmaxd: My point is about forgivness. You don’t have to agree with me. I think it’s sad if people (male and female) prevent themselves from being happy or finding happiness because they are too determined to hang onto negativity instead of forgiving. But hey, if a person is genuinly happy, then by all means, spew forth. Perhaps your definition of hate and mine are not the same.

    What would you consider to be hateful?

    I thought the manosphere was out to “educate” women about the evils of feminism? Perhaps if a female perspective isn’t wanted, there ought to be a filter for posting that specifically asks this question with a check box, whereby the potential poster legally states that he is a he and is not a she (although where that leaves people in transition at I am not sure) to avoid having a female commenting…….. it would be helpful to have a big sign in the header that says “No girls allowed” or something else to that effect. No idea what that would actually accomplish, though.

  31. zed says:

    Your last line struck me as although likely true an indication in practice of just how ungodly such women are and how unseriously they take their professed christianity.

    If you haven’t already, read LGR’s excellent essay, and the comments. I am quite saddened by the fact that there are a lot of people in Christian circles who believe that the only thing it takes to make something “godly” is to apply that adjective to its description,

    How predictable that the women in LGR’s essay relied on a pastor to a large church to instruct young men on what was necessary to keep the collection plate full and the tithes flowing – oops I meant to provide these women “godly” husbands.

    The commenter Justin nailed it –

    Justin said…

    “First, the Christian men that are “good guys” could use a little–what’s the word I’m looking for – ambition.”

    Hmm, which one of the traditional Christian virtues is that? Which Bible teaching instructs men to be ambitious about worldly pursuits?

    I guess the word to Christian men is to keep making as much of that “godly” money as they can so that all these “godly” women can keep telling pastors like Kevin DeYoung employed telling them and their husbands how to be more “godly” affluent, or affluently “godly”.

  32. TikkTok says:

    @ rmaxd: Not trolling, just trying to understand terms. It is amazing to me how often there are completely different definitions of what words are being used. If people are talking about totally different applications of terms (like the word excuse- are we talking forgive or talking justification), it is unlikely that productive conversation can happen, and certainly not likely to have real conclusions or progress made. ‘Course, that is based on the assumption that progress IS wanted, and that in of itself may be completely wrong.

    If everyone is happy with the way things are, why is there discussion?

    PS- that alimony bit- fits right in line with my feelings of child support. Are you saying I can’t possibly believe that because I am female? I absolutely believe that men in divorces usually get the short end of the stick in every possible way, simply because they are men. I think we ought to get rid of no-fault divorces……

  33. Odds says:

    @ Tikktokk: “I thought the manosphere was out to “educate” women about the evils of feminism?”

    The “point,” if there is one in anything as disunified as the blogverse, is to educate men, to teach men how to navigate the modern world. Go your own way, game your wife, pump and dump, whatever suits your fancy, just do it right.

    Women are welcome (most places, here generally being one of them) to learn and try to be better people, to sympathize with men. But you’re talking to an online community full of men who have seen the worst aspects of female nature for what they are, and who have seen that few people give a crap (legally, socially, culturally) for the damage it does. A lot of guys who have been burned by women despite trying to be decent men. And, if you go t the more PUA-oriented places, a lot of guys who started out genuinely wanting to make women happy, only to learn that the opposite approach works better.

    Thing is, there have been more than a few women showing up to make excuses for what women and feminism have done. Those excuses are no longer accepted, so these women try to make apologies – but, of course, the apologies only rarely seem to involve actually changing behavior or opinions. When they do, you get folks like Susan Walsh, Grerp, or Dr. Helen who are widely respected, not because they unconditionally support all men in everything (none of them are big fans of PUAs except as sources of insight, for instance), but because they seem to genuinely want men to be happy and successful, even if that happiness and success has no direct benefit for women.

    We are wary of insincere apologies and excuses. Trying to blame both sides is the mark of someone trying to avoid responsibility. Men can apologize all on our own, thank you, and on an individual basis; instead of apologizing for us, or for all women, or for humanity in general, why not tell us how the subject matter reflects your own life, and any changes you’ve seen fit to make?

  34. terri says:

    Did you mean Laura Grace Robins, Dalrock?

    [D: Doh! Thanks. Fixed it.]

  35. Paragon says:

    @ TFH

    “Stop right there. The hate is overwhelmingly from women. There are still a huge proportion of men who insist on overrating female morality and character, despite evidence to the contrary. Misandry is real. Misogyny is imaginary, and overwhelmed by the opposite of misogyny – pedestalization – about 10,000 times over.”

    This is a predictable manifestation of sexual-conflcit, where males and females really do have conflicting reproductive agendas, courtesy of sexual evolution.

    It has always been like this, the only difference is that before female ‘liberation’ outcomes in this ‘conflict’ tended to be male-dominated, rather than female dominated as it ‘post’ liberation.

    And I don’t think I need to elaborate on which extreme is more agreeable to the preservation of civilization.

  36. zed says:

    Not trolling, just trying to understand terms.

    I’m going to take you at face value on this, TikkTok – mostly because I am in a position to be able to afford to do so. Guys like TFH and rmaxd aren’t quite in the same position as I am – there is nothing left for women to take from me, so I dont have any thing to lose by trusting that you are as you say you are.

    That is an important concept – I will come back to it.

    Now, the first “term” I would like to define here is “gender war.” I assume that you know both the meaning of the word “war” and that of “gender” and thus can most likely assume that “gender war” is a war between the genders. It was declared back in 1991 by Susan Faludi with the publication of her book –“Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women.” This “undeclared war” was nothing more than the fact that the pace of social change demanded by the feminists was proceeding slower than they wanted it to.

    However, that book was credited with revitalizing radical feminism and ushered in the worst decade in terms of relations between men and women in recent history. The passage of the Violence Against Women Act – VAWA – gave women carte blanch to separate men from their familes – and all their assets – by simply picking up the phone and uttering the words “I feel unsafe.” The court system now openly admits that most DV restraining orders are filed strategically and on the flimsiest of evidence.

    Grerp put her finger on the fundamental issue confronting both sides in this comment –
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/why-wont-these-peter-pan-manboys-man-up-and-marry-aging-flighty-selfish-career-gal-sluts-already/#comment-16822

    there is an awful lot of collateral damage and civilian death in war. That is just the way it goes, and you can’t stop it once the whole thing is in full swing. The time for Germany to tell the Soviets, “Whoops, my bad,” was in June, 1941, not – NOT – in April, 1945.

    Anonymous reader provided this bit of historical reference –
    (history note: National Socialist Germany tore up a peace pact and invaded International Socialist Russia in June, 1941. By April of 1945, Soviet tanks were closing in on Berlin).

    Or one might point out that the time for the Empire of Japan to say “Aw, shucks – sorry about that Pearl Harbor thing. Why can’t we all just forgive and forget?” was before mid-December 1941, NOT on August 5, 1945.

    Isn’t it amazing that women are suddenly ready to talk about “forgiveness” when so many of them are experiencing post-marital spinsterhood, and so many young Christian women are finding it hard to find sufficiently affluent “godly” future husbands to rescue them from their careers?

    Me? I’m in my early 60s, on track to retire in a couple of years, had 4 strokes early in the summer and need to concentrate on my health, and have a PSA of 10.5. Grerp pointed out in one of the posts on her blog that 40% of the women in my age cohort are single, and do not have adequate savings for retirement.

    Think any of those women would find me attractive in any sense except as an 11th hour retirement plan?

    Think I have any interest in signing up for that, or learning how to spit Game so I can appear to be alpha enough to attract their attention?

    All I have to do is escape letting one of them get her hooks into me as I round the final corner – “forgiveness” has nothing to do with it.

    There is always a last bus for the night – if you ain’t on it, you get left behind.

  37. rmaxd says:

    @odds

    This is what im talking about, you guys are far too easy on the average troll who passes through here …

    All tiktoks done is spew excuses & empty rhetoric, all absolutely void of any content relative to the topic

    We’re talking about christian women, we’re not interested in what you consider hate etc.

    Stick to the topic, or gtfo, thnx

  38. rmaxd says:

    lol just to piss off tiktok the whiner, even more, heres a relevant quote from one of antifeminist commentators on christian women …

    “Finding women to date in church on a Sunday morning is impossible. I know this was article was written in jest, but take it from someone who has actually tried, it is not worth the effort.

    Women who attend church by themselves, not surrounded by family members, are defunct. They are pretty much losers in every other area of their life, including going to bed early Saturday night so that they are up bright and early to attend the reading of boring scriptures Sunday morning. They have no social life, no social skills, and are disproportionately unattractive. For decades the term “loser” has been associated with a nerd from high school, but it can instead be squarely placed on the shoulders of these women who attend church out of guilt in their lives for being such losers.

    Christian women are also extremely duplicitous. The drench themselves in religion, but hardly practice or memorize anything of they learn in church.. You can expect them to waste your time and their own, and they will try to put sex on the backburner unless you want to marry them…eewww.”

    http://www.antifeministtech.info/2011/06/sunday-morning-nightclub/comment-page-1/#comment-2616

  39. rmaxd says:

    & for the homerun …

    “what I meant to describe are the born-again virgin women who think that just because they have gone back to church they have somehow reestablished their virginity.

    This crocodile-tears approach to godliness and religion is pretty transparent. You have women who fuck their way through life come to church and emulate that they are Mary Magdalane, and that those days of having sex with men outside God’s rule are over. Thus any new man who wants her chewed-up bit must consign half of his life’s wealth to her for a taste. These women also love to preach the famous line from the Mary M story where Jesus says let someone who has not sinned cast the first stone. Applying that stoner philosophy to the world is a woman’s way of framing everyone as unclean and unholy as herself – because Jesus said so. She can feel good now about her own shortcomings by sitting in a pew next to other sinners.”

  40. Falafel says:

    There is nothing unChristian about being a career woman. Do you think that Biblical women were coddled at home? The difference between then and now is that women worked tilling the fields in small scale localised farming and we are not a small scale agricultural society so our jobs are different.

  41. TikkTok says:

    @ Odds: thanks for that explanation. I don’t see constant complaining as anything but venting, really, because there is nothing happening to facilitate change.

    I don’t know what the point of apologies are coming from anyone who wasn’t involved in the situation. Me saying I’m sorry for something someone else has done isn’t going to change anything. I am definitely not a spokesperson for the female gender.

    I do feel badly for anyone who isn’t happy because of choices they have made (and I’m not talking marriage, I’m talking baggage) that prevent them from becoming happy or satisfied, but to apologize? Does that accomplish anything? I can look at things and say actions were wrong and harmful, and that’s a shame. Words are generally empty and of little practical value. They may make you temporarily feel good (or better) but if there is no action behind them, what does it mean? I can’t control anyone’s happiness but my own, but I can contribute to someone’s elses feeling of happiness, but only if they let me.

    Life is too short, imo, to waste on being miserable.

    FTR, I also love men and feel they are entitled to be happy, fulfilled and successful, by whatever measure they determine those characteristics to be.

    Maybe some people would take an apology at face value; I don’t know. If people would take responsibility for their part in situations, would there be a need to “assign” blame (like in divorce- I think “irreconcilable differences” is hooey)? I think there is a difference between blame and responsibility, and even if blame is assigned, there is still responsibility on the other part for being part of the situation. If a person is an adult, rarely is someone hog-tied and forced into a situation like marriage.

    I absolutely can’t apologize for women- I’m not a woman hater, but if seeking, I would rather be friends with men overall. Less drama. Less hormones. Less dodging, tip toe-ing, etc etc. Ime, men will generally tell you what they mean without hidden agendas. I don’t claim to understand women, and honestly, I am hoping to survive the next years with 3 hormonal daughters living under the same roof. 😆

    Most women are vicious, and spend a lot of time and energy tearing each other down. Find anything that can be construed as a fault, and chances are good that it will get a knife in it and/or picked at until there’s blood. That’s my experience, at least. Apparently, this extends to men as well. It’s just a shame that people tear each other down so much instead of being supportive and encouraging.

    I’m not in a position to necessarily “change” things in my own life, because we are where we have agreed to be and it’s working for us. We came into it with clear expectations and clearly defined boundaries/guidelines. We have more “traditional” roles, fwiw.

    I will say, though, I look at all kinds of things differently when it’s coming from women, particularly as it pertains to the husband pursuit. Instead of thinking they are dingy and unintentionally undermining their goals, it makes me wonder if they are doing intentionally for the purpose of whining. I think I’m more cynical, if that’s possible.

    And, I am scratching my head with regard to the future for my girls. That’s about all I’ve got at this point. It’s a process, though, so I’m sure that will shift. Thanks for your sincere interest in discussion. 🙂

  42. rmaxd says:

    Excellent post by stephen btw … lol

    “his Christian girl left the next morning, scowling at me for having seen her leaving our room. She told me that I was wrong to have a swimsuit calendar on the wall. I told her she’d forgotten one of her socks. The look on her face when she came back in to retrieve it was priceless. “

  43. TikkTok says:

    @rmaxd:“You have women who fuck their way through life come to church and emulate that they are Mary Magdalane, and that those days of having sex with men outside God’s rule are over.”

    The Catholic Church cleared this up in 1969 and clarified that MM was not a prostitute etc etc. In fact, I understand she is a saint. Fwiw. Also, what is your source that says MM was the woman from that story? I’m looking at John 8 and I don’t see it?

  44. Paragon says:

    ” I don’t claim to understand women, and honestly, I am hoping to survive the next years with 3 hormonal daughters living under the same roof. ”

    I often wonder how such apprehensive parents would react knowing there daughters were riding the ‘carousel’.

    And, make no mistake, if it happens that one’s daughters are physically attractive, it is not a question of ‘if’, but ‘when’ the ride will begin.

    A pity one can’t tag young girls with cryptic cameras, to record their amorous dalliances – I suspect the presupposed chastity of many a daughter would be soundly refuted.

  45. zed says:

    A pity one can’t tag young girls with cryptic cameras, to record their amorous dalliances – I suspect the presupposed chastity of many a daughter would be soundly refuted.

    Danmell Ndonye

  46. TikkTok says:

    @ paragon: “A pity one can’t tag young girls with cryptic cameras, to record their amorous dalliances – I suspect the presupposed chastity of many a daughter would be soundly refuted.”

    No kidding! Mine are all 12 and under at this point and all homeschooled. I have a pretty good idea where their free-time is spent, but a camera would be handy……. (and yes, they are hormonal even at the younger ages, just not all pmsing yet) At some point, though, they will leave the nest and need good decision making skills…..

    Iron underwear and shot guns for everyone! 😆

  47. RL says:

    tictactoe says ‘but a camera would be handy’

    I thinking tagged may be dangerous in US http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/10/30/family-pictures-of-nude-baby-bath-ruinous-child-porn-prosecution/ but you may try a baby phone for a start!

  48. Badger says:

    You’re not far off…Haley posted a while back about a Boundless writer who said that “the Holy Spirit told me my boyfriend was the right man for me.”

    God-as-Santa-Claus is silly and makes easy prey for the critics of the faith.

  49. TikkTok says:

    @zed: thanks for the additional info. It definitely sounds like you have your priorities in order, fwiw.

    I think a charming and sincere personality can definitely make someone attractive. If you are not interested in marriage, that is certainly your prerogative. I hope you have good friends/family around- those are important when a person has health issues, particularly if they don’t have a spouse. Health issues are a gamble at any age; yes, more so the more years a person has.

    Didn’t the social security laws change with regard to a divorcee being able to draw from her deceased ex-husband’s SS account? As I understand it, there were stipulations, but I thought that was bogus. When you divorce, you give up your “rights,” to those things, imo. If you aren’t around for retirement because you bail, you don’t get any of it. And she remarried, too, and was able to get his money while married to the new man.

    I don’t suppose a pre-nup would help much in that regard. Are you happy where you are?

    I see your point about making change since things aren’t working out they way they want it. Hindsight is always 20/20. Is it even about “forgiveness”? What are they forgiving? One thing I try to keep in mind is “be careful what you wish for- you might just get it.” Never made sense to me as a kid, but as an adult with responsibilities, I get it.

  50. TikkTok says:

    @rl- ya, common sense has seriously flown the coop. 🙄

  51. zed says:

    I see your point about making change since things aren’t working out they way they want it. Hindsight is always 20/20. Is it even about “forgiveness”? What are they forgiving?

    I’m not sure what some of your ramblings mean, TikkTok, but that is OK since I am simply using what you say as a springboard into some of my favorite issues to play broken record about.

    “Forgiveness” is something of a red herring on these issues. Talk to Simon Wiesenthal about “forgiveness.” It is one thing to be able to forgive someone who has personally wronged you, and with whom you might have the chance at some better future relationship. It is entirely another to put aside the fact that a group of people have declared your people to be their enemy and have vigorously pursued trying to do you harm.

    I grew up shortly after WW II, and did not understand the animosity most people had toward Germans and Japanese – and in fact most Asians. I was well into adulthood when I started to understand that when people begin to think of another group as their enemy, that belief system persists long after the other group ceases to actually be an enemy.

    One of the sayings I am known for is that it is not possible to change a pickle back into a cucumber. That is simply to say that some changes are not reversible. I think the term “combat dating” quite nicely sums up the interaction between unmarried people these days. Male and female mating strategies are in complete conflict, and the old veneer of romance and decent marital relationships have been stripped off – leaving both sides jockeying for position to take as much advantage as possible of the other side.

    I think we have been caught in a trench war for about the past 20 years. Men had no response to feminism for a lot of years, but now they have Game.

    I think life will be very tough for women your daughters’ age. Unfortunately, I and a lot of other men are out of sympathy for them.

    That is what the White House Commission on Girls and Women is for.

  52. grerp says:

    “Forgiveness” is something of a red herring on these issues. Talk to Simon Wiesenthal about “forgiveness.” It is one thing to be able to forgive someone who has personally wronged you, and with whom you might have the chance at some better future relationship. It is entirely another to put aside the fact that a group of people have declared your people to be their enemy and have vigorously pursued trying to do you harm.

    Forgiveness is an appropriate response to two things: 1) genuine remorse and 2) serious attempts at restitution. Modern “Christianity” likes to push forgiveness as something due you, not something earned. A wrongdoer requires forgiveness, and that wrongdoer should go over his/her behavior to determine why and how and how this will not be done again.

    A few years ago I read quite a bit of Jewish history and theology, and I really appreciated how in Judaism the wrongdoer has to work to achieve forgiveness – it is not mandatory for the one harmed originally to simply hand it over, profiting again his offender. And some wrongs, like gossiping, simply can’t be forgiven because they cannot be made right. To my mind, this is how Christians should look at sin and forgiveness. Perhaps it once did. Under our current mindset there are plenty of incentives to sin and few incentives to be decent people doing right by our fellow men.

    And, frankly, like Wiesenthal, we should want to see wrongdoers brought low and punished because anything else is an offense against justice and a right world.

    I think, sadly, that the men in this thread are right: women today don’t care about men. They don’t respect men, they don’t like men, they don’t trust men, they are jealous of men’s strengths and successes, they refuse to cooperate in meeting even the basic needs of men. You cannot have peace and prosperity without men and women cooperating. What women should be asking is NOT, “How can we make men cooperate?” but “Why aren’t they?” and “What can we do about this?”

    Laura’s piece was very good.

  53. zed says:

    grerp, sometimes you move me almost to tears.

  54. pb says:

    “There is nothing unChristian about being a career woman. Do you think that Biblical women were coddled at home? The difference between then and now is that women worked tilling the fields in small scale localised farming and we are not a small scale agricultural society so our jobs are different.”

    Working for the sake of the family is not the same as being a wage slave (and accepting the feel-good ideology that goes with it – finding fulfillment through one’s career, etc.).

  55. laceagate says:

    @Falafel:

    Are you serious? Being a Christian woman and a “career woman”?

    First of all, what the heck is a “career”? It’s a feminist-made construct where it teaches women that they are entitled to have their cake and eat it too with a high-powered job and have a family at the same time. I hate to break it to you, but there were always JOBS, not careers. Men have always had jobs, whether they be blue- or white-collar, but they were jobs.

    Career women place their jobs in front of being a wife and being a mother. These are the same women who dump their children into the declining daycare system and hope that daycare becomes the new parent, if not the government. You cannot have a “career” and be a quality wife and a quality mother. Research has continually demonstrated that these women suffer, and if they aren’t the ones suffering, their husbands and children do.

  56. Paragon says:

    @ RL

    “Affirmative action advanced and hypergamy induced career women whine that there is a lack of educated men, oh, no!”

    A dearth of male traditionalists can only be the result of a (increasingly) losing proposition for
    males.

    Thus, it is a rather ironic female lament, when ones considers all their enthusiastic carousel riding(no doubt, by many of the same female complainants).

    But, young men are evidently becoming discouraged from investing in traditional roles, without compelling indications.

    Not to mention the profoundly conflicted lessons they are taking away from their own carousel watching ‘education’.

  57. grerp says:

    zed, you are very kind.

    TFH – I have tried to have conversations with women on these subjects IRL and I always get the feeling that I’m setting off all kinds of “You’re weirdly passionate about this, aren’t you?” thoughts.

  58. grerp says:

    I have spent men to the Spearhead. One man I met in the discount bakery seemed like he was on the verge. His wife had just cheated egregiously, cleaned him out in the divorce, and tried to take his daughter away. I spent a half hour talking to him, telling him that fighting for the right to be in his daughter’s life was critical and brave and that it would make a real difference in her life. I felt like the Spearhead would be cathartic for him so I told him about it. I don’t know if he followed up. Otherwise, I have talked about these issues to men too, but I only have so many “ins” with men as I’m married and I don’t feel that socializing too closely with men is appropriate.

    I suppose one thing I could do is to make up bookmarks and put them into library books on certain topics. I go to libraries often.

  59. Badger says:

    “But telling men is the best use of your time, rather than telling women.”

    I’ve been bleeding out the Manosphere to people gradually.

    I gave a divorced cab driver links to Roissy and MMSL.

    I gave a coworker a link to MMSL, from which he found Roissy, and he’s been reading both voraciously. Says it’s already improved his marriage.

    When I was reading Athol’s book in public, people would ask and I’d tell them about the site.

    Most of my close friends aren’t ready for this stuff. They will be in time though.

  60. Ceer says:

    @TikkTok
    Daytime talk shows may be live, but they can still issue retractions. I think any time a woman sees or hears of another woman attacking a man, she assumes there was a good reason for the attack. Such an assumption is not only unfair, but indicative of pervasive gender stereotyping.

    Men can certainly (and typically do) take abuse from women and still act civilly. Some women see this so often, they assume it’s a man’s job to take any sort of attitude she chooses to present.

    I am all for forgiveness, but forgiveness does have its limits. Many women in our society don’t have a good moral foundation. They can be taught to “let our conscience be our guide”, “women’s instincts are pure and good”, or “situational ethics”. These are not only false, they are dangerous because they can lead a woman to act in her own self-interest without a solid moral foundation while believing she is doing good.

    A man cannot forgive a woman such that she has never divorced him, taking half his assets and harming the children by denying them a proper household to grow up in. A man cannot forgive a woman such that she falls in love with him again (typically cements her disdain for him). A man cannot forgive a woman such that he undoes the broken restraining order she tricked him into violating. The men here have learned from women that forgiveness is not something women tolerate.

    Also, your coming here and asking these specific questions using emotional woman logic is quite common. Many of the commenters here have seen it time and again.

  61. greyghost says:

    This is version 100.35.476 of not all women are like that (NAWALT)

    ““Women just don’t have a capacity of reciprocity, and seeing what being a responsible adult is about.” It would be nice to see you add “in my experience.” I’m not sure that there are ever any absolutes except for death.

    Sorry- there I go again, sermonizing.”

  62. jack says:

    You’re not far off…Haley posted a while back about a Boundless writer who said that “the Holy Spirit told me my boyfriend was the right man for me.”

    Maybe she mistook the tingle for the Spirit-phone ringing.

  63. Just1X says:

    Tikktok

    “I thought the manosphere was out to “educate” women about the evils of feminism?”

    no, just warn men.

    Perhaps that’s why you are having problems understanding things? the comments aren’t aimed at women like you, though they may well be about women like you – YMMV.

    I am not making this comment in anger, merely offering potential insight?

  64. Just1X says:

    TikkTok,

    having read later comments (after those to which I replied), may be the manosphere is not ‘about you’. You make some interesting points about women (NAWALT…).

    Perhaps society (and you) should raise daughters to be more male? You seem to see some of the differences. Less bitchiness, less cliques, more open about motives, considering consequences, more action and less just whining. Unfortunately society seems to be about turning boys into lesser girls, to be used as walking sperm and cash dispensers in later life.

    But I repeat, the manosphere is not here to help women as they don’t (en masse) want to be helped. It is about telling men what women are REALLY like (nawalt…) and how to avoid the consequences. How ‘manning up’ is just bending over, grabbing ankles and taking it…no pay off for the man (walking cash dispenser, sperm donor, spear catcher).

    Best of luck with your girls (sincerely) as I don’t see society heading for a happy place, and I think men should just sit back and let it happen. Trying to stop it is futile, costly to the man and thoroughly unthanked…MGTOW

  65. greyghost says:

    @grerp
    I never really paid any attention to you or your comments until this article. You will be a very important person. If the MRM can get us fully past the tipping point. When we have a large enough group of involuntary childless spinsters and the equivolent divorced single baby boomers with the doper kids and carousel ridering daughters looking at lonely poverty we maybe able to see one change. The feral childlike selfish nature of women along with the unself controllable hypergamy will always be there. When enough women run out of men to hate not all but enough to panic the herd. Female nature though unchanged the hamster alive and well will be driven by fear. I hope you are there and ready for it “not “How can we make men cooperate?” but “Why aren’t they?” and “What can we do about this?”
    I firmly believe more and more in the real merits of MGTOW not as an end but part of a journey. Men learning to survive the modern world and understand reality rather than following the false traditions blindly. The “cad” will be the savior. It was never about being pleasing to man it was and is about being pleasing to God. I think that was hinted at in comments about christians playing christian with the concept of forgiveness.
    Keep after it grerp you are special and have an important place in history.

  66. TikkTok says:

    @Ceer-

    I think you are selling men short. I absolutely think that men have the capacity to forgive- that doesn’t mean they don’t remember and won’t be keeping it all in mind, which will affect future actions. Since forgiveness is a choice, it’s a decision that certainly is available to be utilized.

    Do you think that the kind of forgiveness in your examples is different from say, men who forgive the murders of someone close to him?

    ITA with your perspective on daytime talk shows, fwiw.

    With regard to “emotional logic”- I’m just trying to understand the issue is all.If that makes me “emotional,” so be it. I didn’t ask for my biology, nor is there anything I can do about it. I think that emotions rarely have a place in good decision making. Logic should trump “feeling” nearly every time. There may be situations where emotions should have the upper hand, but I can’t think of any right now.

  67. TikkTok says:

    @just1x- thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that in addition to the warning/venting that there was also a solution being suggested.

    About it not being about “me”- of course not. The world is general is not about me. 🙂 When you are the token female in a setting and are being targeted, there is a tendency to be labeled as the default representative of all of that gender.

    I think the world in general is a rotten place. It is a constant challenge to find decent, moral and ethical people of any gender. It’s a lot easier to whine and point fingers while assigning blame than it is to take personal responsibility; acknowledge your (my, we, ours, everyone’s) part in it, and then try to DO something constructive to correct it.

    What are your suggestions for raising a girl to be “more male”?

    And, fwiw, I am just as concerned about my son out in the world, too, because there is no doubt he will have a bulls-eye on him….. in truth, he has already seen this to some degree, since he likes to periodically have a female avatar in his online games. That’s been eyeopening for him, lol.

  68. deti says:

    Many Christian men, I think, have spent their younger lives while raised in the modern church assuming that Christian women are somehow different from nonChristian women. We assumed and were told that Christian women were “godly” and that there would be hordes of Christian women just chomping at the bit to date and marry us. Fresh out of school and starting a new job in a new city, while still having never heard of the red pill, I joined a local church of my childhood denomination, hoping to meet a few good Christian women.

    Nope. Nothing doing.

    I was laughed at. I was told “too bald. Too fat. Not good looking enough. Too nice.” It’s only now that I realize these women wanted nothing to do with a “good” Christian man. No, they wanted superalphas. There wasn’t even any of this “seeking God” or waiting for God to “lay it on my heart”. These were feminists through and through.

    Fast forward oh, 17 years. I’m in a new church. My wife and I are in a small Bible study group. Most participants are married. The men ostensibly leads the group. But two of the wives invariably take over the discussions. These women are harridans, who bash men, make their husbands the butts of public jokes, and are generally sarcastic and nonsubmissive. They are the very antithesis of what a Christian woman is supposed to be. My wife and I hated — HATED — this group and recently quit for obvious reasons.

    If anything, the problem is that modern Christian women fall into the consumerism/feminism trap.

  69. Just1X says:

    “What are your suggestions for raising a girl to be “more male”?”

    Admitting fault
    Recognising consequences and one’s part in causing them
    All the ‘good’ stuff about manliness in your bible. (I mean the morality stuff, not religious per se)

    I can’t see us going back to Marriage 1.0 because women are not going to go back to women 1.0 (can’t uninvent carousel riding), so men should find a man 3.0 role that they like and go their own way. Life of man 2.0 is toxic for men, women don’t seem to hold morality very highly for themselves, they’ll happily use it as a tool over men.

    (in manosphere parlance: 1.0 the past, 2.0 now, 3.0 some unspecified future)

  70. Just1X says:

    TikkToc,

    If you’re looking for solutions, you should try the tradosphere, or soconosphere.

    Their solutions involve:
    ignoring that world 1.0 has gone.
    ignoring (or dismissing the seriousness) of problems with marriage 2.0 for men
    shaming men into BOGAHIC (bend over gran ankles, here it comes)

    basically treating men as disposable.

    As you might imagine, I don’t have much time for these ‘men’ who consider it okay to ‘push (other) men under the bus’

  71. zed says:

    zed, you are very kind.

    grerp, your social graces are, as always, impeccable. But, my comments have nothing to do with kindness. 😉

    Of all the women I have interacted on the web, you get it the most and the best. Your analogy of the German and Russian Armies in 1941-1945 captured the essence of the issues absolutely perfectly – explained in a sentence or two what could take hundreds of words to not convey so well.

    It is just isn’t reasonable for any member of a group which declares war on another group and pursues hostilities against them for a number of years to suddenly have second thoughts when the tide of battle turns against them and they start to lose and play – “Oh, we’re just girls, you have to treat us nice.”

    If I make the mistake of picking up a poisonous snake, get bitten, and get terribly sick from it, if and when I recover the platitudes about “forgiveness” are silly. The snake bit me – that was its nature. If I encounter another snake with the same markings – appearing to be from the same species – there is nothing which can undo the mental associations that this is a harmful creature which is best avoided.

    Your ability to focus in on the heart of the issue is illustrated here –

    You cannot have peace and prosperity without men and women cooperating. What women should be asking is NOT, “How can we make men cooperate?” but “Why aren’t they?” and “What can we do about this?”

    First, you are correct – women are not asking how they can cooperate with men, but how they can MAKE men do what they want them to. From Affirmative Action to VAWA, the past almost 50 years is one continuous process of women trying to find ways to MAKE men do what they want them to via the legal and judicial system.

    Second, after 50 years of escalation and increasingly punitive measures, women have not yet figure out that the answer is – they can’t “make” men comply with women’s wishes.

    Oh sure, they can ride along with the White Knights and manginas trying to bitch men into “manning up”, but I have seen no evidence that this approach is working or even having any effect other than the opposite of what it appears to be intended to have. Instead of “manning up” every time some blowhard like Bill Bennett or Kay Hymnalwitch opens her mouth, more men “man OUT.”

    But, the problem goes back to participation in the culture and the mating dance with women is voluntary on the part of men. Men must be motivated to put out their best effort. Coercion will produce nothing more than men showing up and doing the absolute minimum it takes to get by.

  72. rmaxd says:

    “As you might imagine, I don’t have much time for these ‘men’ who consider it okay to ‘push (other) men under the bus’

    The whole church is designed to throw men under the bus

    Any woman automatically entering a church is automatically presumed to a puritanical superior to secular women, mary magdalene

    The church enables women to resume their age old virginal illusion, just by handing them a bible & a cross

    Christian women are hundreds of more times pedestalised then the average feminist, by the church

    Men are told what would jesus do … erm jesus is a freaking demi-god … while women are compared to everything from the virginal mary to mary magdalene

    Men in the christian church are held up to the standards of jesus basically a demigod before he ascends, david & king solomon

    While women are held up to the examples of a prostitute, a human mother the virgin mary, & the wives of moses & david

    Not an extensive list, but you get the gist …

    Christian women are told jesus loves even prostitutes, using mary magdalene as a prime example of religous its ok to sleep around, slut acceptance

    When the truth is Jesus so pissed off at mary magdalene for touching his robe, he made her wash his feet & give him a well oiled head massage as penance

    Of course the church whitewashes this as a parable of mercy or forgiveness … right …

    The church needs to hold women to the same standards of david or jesus, or at least some sort of patriarchial goal, trying to hold them to the standards of a prostitute, or a virginal mother is asking for women to run riot in spades …

  73. Dalrock,
    Thanks for the post!

    Zed,
    I made another post out of Justin’s good point about ambition.
    http://fullofgraceseasonedwithsalt.blogspot.com/2011/11/godly-ambition-does-not-mean-pleasing.html

  74. van Rooinek says:

    …..all of these [promiscuous] Christian ladies told the Christian guys that they were waiting until marriage. These guys were genuinely celibate and waited like puppies for the happy day.

    Yep. Sadly. Our “sisters in Christ” played us for fools. Betcha a lot of them “kissed dating goodbye” too… they set impossibly high courtship hurdles for the Christian man (including requiring a level of income that it takes most of us well into our 30s to achieve, before they’ll consider marrying us), and then turned around and had dateless, nameless hookups with nonChristians in the next dorm room.

    It’s interesting how these girls invoke the “Holy Spirit” to justify their choices. When I was much younger I once had a conversation with a secular man who reveled in the fun he’d had, seducing Christian women. I wanted to argue with him, contradict him, tell him that Christian women were never like that…. but a still small voice, a deep inner intuition, told me to stay silent, that the guy just might be telling the truth.

  75. greyghost says:

    Thank you all here for knocking the hell out of that last peace of crap female pedistal of “christian woman” it was another load of female garbage that is only there for social status against other women. Nothing real about it.

  76. rmaxd says:

    This whole thread reminds me of Sarah Palins daughter, & her crusade for chastity who then gets herself knocked up as a teenager …

    Ingenius …

  77. Stephen says:

    “Sadly our ‘sisters in Christ’ play us for fools.”

    van Rooinek–I remember telling some Christian friends that they were being played. They’d insist that such women were good Christians and so would never sleep with a man before marriage. I’d tell them, “No, they’d never sleep with a Christian man before marriage. There’s a difference.”

    The thing is, I think these Christian college girls are onto something. Most of them ended up having their cake and eating it too from what I saw. I remember the absolute torture my buddy went through trying to get his fiancee to chill out and stop letting “God” tell her to see other men. Her history alone was enough to put most secular guys off, and this friend was determined to make her his Christian wife. But she kept slipping up and so he, a guy who thought even nocturnal emissions were a sin, had to keep looking the other way when she’d come trailing in from some random frat house early in the morning (though she may have been worse than average since as a sorority member she had a dual Greek life/Christian life thing going on).

    The good news is he saw the light and never married her, though dating her for four years of college and a year after was damage enough (she stuck around campus to lead a Christian women’s group). But plenty of other Christian guys did marry her counterparts and had to deal with the fact that though they never slept around in college and in some cases never even touched themselves, “the Lord” had made sure their wives came relatively well used by the time of the wedding.

    In another case, I remember one good friend who was leading the local Campus Crusade group and eventually went to medical school, deciding he would hold out for a Christian woman who actually lived up to the same standards he did (no sex til marriage, oral counts, or my favorite exception–he can stick it in but not move it around too much, etc.). He was someone who easily would have been considered an alpha male and would have dated any woman he wanted to on campus.

    Well, he found his Christian woman and eventually married her once he was a practicing MD. I met her a few years later. She was a nice lady, stayed home and raised the kids, and was a solid 4. I don’t mean physically only, but was plainly high school educated at best and thought of Oprah as her favorite philosopher. So she was able to trade up in a pretty major way simply by adhering to the standard he did and making herself a rare commodity–a Christian woman who lives by her values (though maybe not by choice) rather than seeing them as legalistic obstacles to get around. But she was a semi-educated 4 who ended up married to a handsome Christian doctor who would never even look at a Victoria’s Secret catalog, let alone another woman.

  78. rmaxd says:

    @steph

    I’ve found women who trade up as massively as the 4 in your post, apply massive pressure on the male for a relationship, its this pressure which usually drives the hapless guy to settle down with her

    It’s almost fanatical the lengths she goes to get her man, if he’s hundreds of times higher up socially then she is, anyway excellent post

  79. van Rooinek says:

    plenty of….Christian guys did marry her counterparts and had to deal with the fact that though they never slept around in college and in some cases never even touched themselves, “the Lord” had made sure their wives came relatively well used by the time of the wedding.

    “The Lord” they refer to here, wasn’t the true Lord, the God of Israel, the Creator. It was their lord, a small mammal known as Mesocricetus rationalis. Even the flying spaghetti monster would have been better than that pesky little rodent.

  80. Stephen says:

    van Rooinek–Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to criticize genuine religious belief, only these young ladies’ misuse of it.

  81. van Rooinek says:

    van Rooinek–Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to criticize genuine religious belief, only these young ladies’ misuse of it.

    No worries. I understood where you’re coming from. It was clear, at least to me, that you had no real hostility toward true faith. But you detested the deception. You’re in good company, actually: Jesus Himself reserved His harshest sermons for religious hypocrites.

  82. Phil says:

    The God of Israel? Christianity and Talmudic Judaism are two very different religions. Judaism is, in fact, very hostile to Christianity, as the Israeli Professor Israel Shahak has written in his book “Jewish History, Jewish Religion”. The Christian god and the Jewish god are two different gods.

  83. grerp says:

    zed, I come from a long line of people who accept compliments awkwardly, but thank you; coming from you that means a lot.

    I am genuinely concerned about how men and boys are treated in this culture. My nephew just turned 13. He is about to go into the social meat grinder, and he is the BEST boy – kind, thoughtful, bright, athletic, and so good and patient with my son. I think we are facing huge challenges as a country and we are cooperating with each other the worst we ever have. I would very much like it if other people would wake up to these realities so we can try to avert at least some of the suffering ahead. I do not want to see my nephew, niece or son be a statistic of this poisoned culture we live in.

    More later – I have to go catch my nephew’s game.

  84. van Rooinek says:

    The God of Israel?….The Christian god and the Jewish god are two different gods.

    Jesus Christ said quite plainly that they are the same: “Hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one”

    That said, He seemed to have little use for the misinterpretations of the Mosaic Law that eventually got codified into the Talmud.

  85. Aqua Net says:

    Pb and Laceagate, I’ve not scrolled through and read the original poster’s comment that you are replying to, however, “career” and “job” is just semantics. Back in Biblical times people had trades that were connected to the earth and nature – agriculture, herding animals and dairy farming, making clothing, carpentry, etc. There was never a time when the majority of women (or kids, for that matter) did not have to do something. Today we are not living in a simplistic rural environment with a village economy, therefore the things that both men and women have to do for livelihood are different.

    I wrote under “Boundless Is Their Foolishness” that I work with senior citizens and the majority of middle class widows that I know are suffering great financial and social stress now due to having chosen to be a 1950s full time housewife completely dependent on their husband’s. Many of them are have now slid from solidly midde class when their husbands were alive to being lower-middle class and even lower. Many qualify for help like food stamps but their previous middle class conditioning makes them too proud to apply. They will have to though, if they want to eat. And because they relied on their husbands to do everything, even something as simple as applying for food stamps seems like an insurmountal difficulty.

    It simply isn’t wise for anyone but a wealthy woman to choose to be a full time housewife and mother. She will end up just dodging poverty in her senior years.

  86. laceagate says:

    @Aqua Net,

    I don’t believe there was any indication that working was not something women could do, or that a woman had to depend on a man to do “everything.” Scripturally that is nonsense to believe that a wife is dependent on her husband to be that type of person.

    What I was arguing against was the “career woman” feminist mindset. This mindset implies that a Christian woman can still be a quality wife and mother while being a high quality careerist. It doesn’t pan out to be that way IRL. It’s one thing for Christian wives to work, as I do myself, but if you are a young, traditional, Christian woman who wants to be married, you will DO what you need to in order to get married.

  87. Aqua Net says:

    Laceagate, again I think its a matter of semantics and not grasping the differences in the nature of work, then and now. I’d argue that most probably women in Biblical times worked harder in terms of labor and put in more hours than today’s “career woman”. Difference being that their kids, once a certain age, might be working right alongside them. The nature of work in today’s world does not enable our kids to work right alongside us.

    Let’s say a middle class Christian wife and mother takes a part-time job or works from home part-time in order to “supplement” the husband’s middle class income. I still say in today’s age and with today’s economy, that is NOT going to be enough to keep her out of poverty in her old widow years. I see it with my own eyes every day working with senior widows.

    We are living in different times.

  88. greyghost says:

    This depened on her husband stuff is bull.. These modern “ladies where living as wanna be wealthy wives” Women stopped being allies and partners to their husbands and became entitled. All of the things I have learned by actually looking at the behavier of woman and studying game and hypergamy tells me these are normal things about women. With that being said and knowing about how woman view status in relation to other women. I think those whole keep her barefoot and pregnant thing is bull. I think a large part of the SAHM crap was women showing off her status as being married to a good provider and also she gets to be taken care of like a princess. Notice how when they became liberated that they kept the part about being taken care of.
    A woman that brings more to the table than a pretty face and vagina and actually joins team husband to build a family will always live better in the long run than a liberated woman getting her entitled happiness.

  89. laceagate says:

    A woman that brings more to the table than a pretty face and vagina and actually joins team husband to build a family will always live better in the long run than a liberated woman getting her entitled happiness.

    It’s a lot of these “career women” who share the entitled happiness as much as the SAHM women who believe that they are pampered princesses. Neither women make quality wives.

  90. pb says:

    “Pb and Laceagate, I’ve not scrolled through and read the original poster’s comment that you are replying to, however, “career” and “job” is just semantics. Back in Biblical times people had trades that were connected to the earth and nature – agriculture, herding animals and dairy farming, making clothing, carpentry, etc. There was never a time when the majority of women (or kids, for that matter) did not have to do something. Today we are not living in a simplistic rural environment with a village economy, therefore the things that both men and women have to do for livelihood are different. ”

    i think Laceagate has already addressed this — even if it could be argued that the denotation of the two words is the same, the connotation is not. It makes a big difference politically whether the majority of people are self-employed or if they are wage slaves.

    “It simply isn’t wise for anyone but a wealthy woman to choose to be a full time housewife and mother. She will end up just dodging poverty in her senior years.”
    Who says she won’t be poor anyways, even if she has a job? If she is raising her family properly under the guidance of God, tradition, and her husband, the primary responsibility for the care of her (and other elders) will be on her children. The American paradigm of splitting households and excessive mobility needs to be changed, especially as the economy gets worse. (Plus, a second income does very little to increase wealth and savings, as much of it is spent on expenses and child care.)

  91. laceagate says:

    The American paradigm of splitting households and excessive mobility needs to be changed, especially as the economy gets worse. (Plus, a second income does very little to increase wealth and savings, as much of it is spent on expenses and child care.)

    I agree with this. Over the course of the history involved with splitting households, there has been a relationship between declining quality of life with the elderly.

  92. Ceer says:

    @ grerp
    My nephew just turned 13. He is about to go into the social meat grinder, and he is the BEST boy – kind, thoughtful, bright, athletic, and so good and patient

    I’m so sorry for you. I would definitely try to teach him some sort of game early.

  93. TikkTok says:

    @just1x-“Admitting fault
    Recognising consequences and one’s part in causing them
    All the ‘good’ stuff about manliness in your bible. (I mean the morality stuff, not religious per se)”

    Check, check, check. Guess we must be doing something right. 🙂

    If people would stop helicoptering and start letting logical consequence take root, we (as a society) might actually get somewhere. Imo, this stems from absentee parenting (particularly mothers) who let their guilt take over- can’t possibly discipline those kids now can we, when we spend so little time with them- it just wouldn’t be fair to them [/whiney voice]

    The universe is full of cause and effect…. 😀

  94. Ceer says:

    @Tiktok
    I think you are selling men short. I absolutely think that men have the capacity to forgive- that doesn’t mean they don’t remember and won’t be keeping it all in mind, which will affect future actions. Since forgiveness is a choice, it’s a decision that certainly is available to be utilized.

    You misunderstand me. I’m not saying men don’t choose to forgive. They do in vast numbers. Forgiveness is often taken advantage of…being mistaken for weakness. My main point was that forgiveness itself can’t change the hearts of those who are forgiven. That is the main limit of forgiveness. It can heal a grievous emotional wound, or it can allow a reckless harpy to tear through your life…just depends on how it’s interpreted (or grace). Unfortunately for society, the more typical case is the latter.

  95. grerp says:

    greyghost – I hope to be useful to my family members and my small community. If I can do anything for the world around me with anything I say or write, so much the better. Thank you for your comment. I do appreciate it.

    TFH – My husband does read some of these sites. He particularly likes Dalrock. But I would say at this point, he’s still kind of hoping in his heart that people aren’t really like what is being shared here daily. Interestingly enough, I took the POV here seriously partly because he had shared with me (often) how frustrating it was when he was younger to have women totally blow him off when he was doing his best to be a good guy and sensitive to their needs.

    Ceer – I don’t think he would “buy” it at this point. He has grown up in a pretty sheltered community, and his family is full of good people with good intentions. Also, an aunt isn’t really much of an authority figure to a thirteen-year-old boy. But I will try. I will try.

  96. Aqua Net says:

    “It makes a big difference politically whether the majority of people are self-employed or if they are wage slaves.”

    How silly. Most Americans are not self-employed and we still have to eat and feed our kids. For everyone self employed person there needs to be more people working for her or him that are, as you put it, their employer’s “wage slave”.

    American culture has not had extended household living for a century already. Americans do not want to care for their elderly and the elderly do not like to feel a “burden” to their grown children, and besides, elder care is expensive even if those elderly are living with their grown children.

    You seem to think the cost of living in this country is far cheaper than it is.

  97. TikkTok says:

    @ceer- Absolutely, I agree with you. Christians are called to forgive- that is totally for the person doing the forgiving. I think a person can absolutely forgive while still taking a person to task for their actions.

    I think forgiveness is also mistaken for excusing, too. Maybe that is where the problem lies in these cases- the women involved think their behavior has been excused (as in, overlooked; justified; forgotten about, made ok because they were forgiven, etc etc etc) and therefore they don’t have consequence (and clearly, many courts would take this tact).

    Seems to me that the only way for some people’s hearts to change is for them not to weasel out of the consequences they have coming…..

  98. Anonymous says:

    van Rooinek: “The Lord” they refer to here, wasn’t the true Lord, the God of Israel, the Creator. It was their lord, a small mammal known as Mesocricetus rationalis.

    Doesn’t such Rationalization Hamster idolatry violate the 1st Commandment? It pays off more immediately than J’h’va or even the Golden Calf, sure, but can’t they see that and shouldn’t you point it out?

  99. Looking Glass says:

    @Stephen:

    My brother ended up in about the situation, but he got married a year after college. (He’s a tech guy and makes great money) But his wife is a very nice woman and maybe a 3. He was probably a 5 to 6 when they got married (8 when he was working out). Though she’s pretty intelligent, she also is extremely good to him (maybe a little TOO good of a cook, damn, now I want one of her cakes >_< ). Could he have gotten a gal better looking, even at his Christian college? Yes, but she wasn't the first girl he dated there. She just made the smart choice to lock him in, and they work really well together. She won't leave him and he won't leave her, either. He's got two wonderful daughters and, all the stresses of life considered, they're doing pretty well.

    Frankly, while a good man that's an MD should be able to get a really hot wife, your friend is actually very, very safe. Maybe she's not a looker or above average in intelligence, but she's an honest woman that found and locked in a good man. She made the *extremely* intelligent decision; her peers very definitely didn't. And your friend, while holding out and making a "safe choice" actually wins out. Finding a good, honest woman is simply very difficult, especially considering the money he's making. They both probably made out well, as scary as that sounds.

  100. Looking Glass says:

    While some might not like Susan Walsh, I do recommend this post:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/01/25/hookinguprealities/the-new-sex-math-probabilities-and-opportunities/

    While people aren’t always completely rational, there’s a lot of truth to the way things work, as a matter of approaching, in the works she lists. The “weak bidders” actually come out the best.

  101. pb says:

    “How silly. Most Americans are not self-employed and we still have to eat and feed our kids. For everyone self employed person there needs to be more people working for her or him that are, as you put it, their employer’s “wage slave”.”

    Perhaps there will always be some who are unable to direct themselves, but for a long time Americans held to the former ideal. It’s unfortunate you do not see the political implications of people being a wage slave (corporatocracy and so on) — it keeps the duopoly going. But if you are a woman I shouldn’t expect more?

    “American culture has not had extended household living for a century already. Americans do not want to care for their elderly and the elderly do not like to feel a “burden” to their grown children, and besides, elder care is expensive even if those elderly are living with their grown children.”

    What people desire is irrelevant, if they are going to survive in a time of a contracting economy.

  102. Just1X says:

    TikkTok

    “Seems to me that the only way for some people’s hearts to change is for them not to weasel out of the consequences they have coming…..”

    Just a small point…in the manosphere, we prefer ‘rationalisation hamster’ to ‘weasel’

    HTH

    (and I realsie that you meant everyone, but couldn’t resist)

  103. rmaxd says:

    “What people desire is irrelevant, if they are going to survive in a time of a contracting economy.”

    Exactly what is a woman going to do if welfare or her husband dies, without a social network of traditional society, specifically designed to accomodate not just women, but the whole nuclear family

    The elderly’ve been paying the biggest price, as single mom’s reject the men who wldve enabled the nuclear family

    The only ppl who seem to benefit in a society, where the women demand equality & welfare for everyone, at the expense of communities & the destruction of the nuclear families who support a local thriving community, corporations benefit massively from unsustainable lower wages, as single moms & immigrants swarm the workplace, at the expense of existing nuclear families & communities

  104. Anonymous says:

    “Frankly, while a good man that’s an MD should be able to get a really hot wife”

    Not from what I’ve seen.

  105. zed says:

    Seems to me that the only way for some people’s hearts to change is for them not to weasel out of the consequences they have coming…..

    Yes, this is the answer. Sooner or later other people have to stop rescuing them and let them learn first hand that the “wages of sin” really is death.

  106. rmaxd says:

    “Frankly, while a good man that’s an MD should be able to get a really hot wife”

    Not from what I’ve seen.”

    No game, no hot chick even for MD’s, women dont have the financial hypergamous need in the u.s or other feminist welfare husband substitute states

  107. TikkTok says:

    @Just1X- “Just a small point…in the manosphere, we prefer ‘rationalisation hamster’ to ‘weasel’
    HTH”
    😆 In the future, I’ll try to stay away from mammalian references in regards to my verb usage so as not to cloud the issue…. 😆

  108. van Rooinek says:

    Doesn’t such Rationalization Hamster idolatry violate the 1st Commandment?

    Oh, absolutely. And the worst of it is, they convince themselves that it’s really “God” speaking to them.

  109. TikkTok says:

    @Zed- yes, we agree. In the biblical context, as I understand it- the ““wages of sin” really is death” is more in keeping with lack of everylasting life (which means final death and not just physical death) and the sin covering of Jesus’ blood…..fwiw, ymmv. 😀

    Christianity aside, the practical application of that might go back to “you can’t fix stupid” or something along that same line. (I was actually thinking of women who get divorced because their husbands wouldn’t fix the garbage disposal or something else equally as trivial not getting bailed out by the ex-husands money. Sometimes, it takes real, definable consequences that remind a person on an ongoing basis that their thought process was flawed, and now that they know better, they won’t make the same idiotic decisions again….)

  110. zed says:

    “Doesn’t such Rationalization Hamster idolatry violate the 1st Commandment? ”

    Oh, absolutely. And the worst of it is, they convince themselves that it’s really “God” speaking to them.

    “Maybe she mistook the tingle for the Spirit-phone ringing.”

    So, this means that God speaks to women through their vaginas? 😉

    Men think with their dicks, and women listen with their vaginas – so the best mating would be a husband who doesn’t think and a deaf woman? 😉

  111. OffTheCuff says:

    Let’s say a middle class Christian wife and mother takes a part-time job or works from home part-time in order to “supplement” the husband’s middle class income. I still say in today’s age and with today’s economy, that is NOT going to be enough to keep her out of poverty in her old widow years. I see it with my own eyes every day working with senior widows.

    The cause of this is usually poor financial planning, not being out of the full-time career work-force. A stay-at-home-Mom sure *can* work part time, invest, and purchase insurance with both her money and her family’s estate. But it takes future time-orientation and the discipline of spending less than you earn, which isn’t very fun.

  112. Joshua says:

    Wheres chels in all this?

  113. rmaxd says:

    “Wheres chels in all this?” – God told her to moan about the manosphere on alte’s strangely odd site …

    God has given no eta for her return …

    I’d be more interested in christian chicks shouting their divorces are not like that … The hamster is infinitely more entertaining …

  114. Aqua Net says:

    “So, this means that God speaks to women through their vaginas?”

    Why do you think we shout “Oh God! Oh God!” in orgasm? 😉

    “Exactly what is a woman going to do if welfare or her husband dies, without a social network of traditional society, specifically designed to accomodate not just women, but the whole nuclear family”

    This doesn’t make sense because a nuclear family by definition is 2 parents and their kids, only. Anything more is “extended family”. If you’ve got granny living with you, that’s not nuclear family. The nuclear family signalled the breakdown of the extended family. And it just goes to prove my point. Americans have long considered the nuclear family as ideal. They will not transition back to extended family living easily, if at all.

  115. Aqua Net says:

    “Perhaps there will always be some who are unable to direct themselves, but for a long time Americans held to the former ideal. ”

    More “good ol days” sentimentality. Exactly when was this “long time” when the majority of Americans were self-employed? Next your’re going to tell me that “frontiersmen” settled large swaths of areas all by their lonesome. Here, drink another glass of romanticised Kool Aid.

    “It’s unfortunate you do not see the political implications of people being a wage slave (corporatocracy and so on) ”

    Oh I see the implications of it alright. However I’m not an airy fairy idealist like you, nurturing romantic notions of a past glory that never was, or of a coming “revolution”.

    The corporatocracy ain’t going away, son.

  116. zed says:

    Exactly when was this “long time” when the majority of Americans were self-employed?

    Up until WW I – the majority of American’s lived and worked on farms.

  117. Anonymous Reader says:

    Aqua net
    Exactly when was this “long time” when the majority of Americans were self-employed?

    zed
    Up until WW I – the majority of American’s lived and worked on farms.

    100 years ago some of my ancestors were living on farms, others were working in mines that they owned, another owned a general store, another was a doctor, still another was a nurse, some others were ranching. Only the nurse was an employee, she worked in a hospital run by a charitable organization. All the others were their own boss.

    HTH.

  118. Aqua Net says:

    “Up until WW I – the majority of American’s lived and worked on farms.”

    Who’s farms?

    “100 years ago some of my ancestors were living on farms, others were working in mines that they owned”

    Mine owners. Wow. The majority of Americans were not mine owners.

  119. Anonymous Reader says:

    “Up until WW I – the majority of American’s lived and worked on farms.”

    Who’s farms?

    I dunno, who is farms? Did you mean to write “whose farms”, perhaps?

    “100 years ago some of my ancestors were living on farms, others were working in mines that they owned”

    Mine owners. Wow.

    Yup. But what you think a mine is, and what a lot of mines 100 years ago actually were, are two very different things. It used to be that staking a claim to the ore under a piece of land, public or private, was a pretty straight forward bit of paperwork. Drilling and blasting a tunnel into a mountain could be done by a few men, working long hours of physical labor. But the fruits of their labor belonged to them, not to the government.

    The majority of Americans were not mine owners.

    True. So what?

  120. Aqua Net says:

    SMH, the original point was: most Americans did not own their own businesses or make their own fortunes. They worked for other people. Put the utopian dream to rest. Its an illusion.

  121. Anonymous Reader says:

    SMH, the original point was: most Americans did not own their own businesses or make their own fortunes.

    “Proof” by assertion, i.e. “I say it is so, there fore it is so”. No evidence was produced to support the claim, and evidence countering it was produced.

    They worked for other people.

    Proof? Some supporting evidence? Something more than “because I say so”?

    Put the utopian dream to rest. Its an illusion.

    Obviously there is some importance to you in portraying Americans of 100 years ago as universal wage serfs. Too bad some of us have studied history.

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