Boundless is their foolishness.

Captain Capitalism has a post up on a topic I have been mulling over.  The post is titled The Lord Will Not Provide and refers to a post on Boundless by an unmarried 29 year old seminary grad student titled Out of Control:

I am the type of person who usually goes out and gets what she wants. I wanted to go to a good college, so I worked hard in high school. I wanted to be a writer, so I studied journalism and did internships with magazines. I want to write a book someday, so I write daily and I’m going to grad school to get credentials that will put some authority behind my name. For the most part, I feel in control of things. But being a wife, being a mom seem so far out of my control. I wait on God, hoping He’s listening to the true desires of my heart, and grappling with what it means if He hears those desires but has a different path for me.

When it comes to her real priorities in life, she is all about the plan.  But when it comes down to becoming a wife and mother, she is sitting around waiting for God to deliver a beta provider.  This seems to fit both with the general advice Haley relays from the church, as well as what I hear many Christians discussing.  If I’m understanding the general Christian message to young women correctly, it is:

Don’t worry, God will guide your heart.

I’m not challenging the premise of having faith in God, but the whole thing strikes me as terribly passive. Is this how they approach other less important life decisions, like whether to attend college, which one, and what to major in?  Would they simply tell her to trust in God if she were buying a car or taking out a loan?  Or do Christian parents only reserve their lack of instruction and guidance for matters of the utmost importance?  Yes she is the one who must make the choice, but it is cruel not to warn her of the pitfalls so many other women before her have fallen into.

I don’t see how this kind of advice is even biblical.  I think the core problem is that modern Christians are so incredibly bereft of wisdom when it comes to issues of love and marriage.  This is a group which set out to create a pro marriage movie, yet somehow ended up making divorce porn.  Even worse, no one noticed!  At some level they must know this.  They are likely looking back on the mystery of their own experience finding a spouse and attributing it to divine providence.  God may well have had a hand in the process, but the stakes are incredibly high for both men and women.  Having good sense, a feeling of profound responsibility, and a basic understanding of the process shouldn’t stop God from intervening where He sees fit.

The fact is that leaving young women to their own devices has created an unmitigated disaster.  Don’t worry, it will all work out according to God’s plan may work just fine for some women, but it fails spectacularly for large numbers of others.  Given our culture’s pedistalization of women and misunderstanding of their sexuality, telling them to follow their heart often means turning them feral.

I don’t claim to have all of the answers here, and I acknowledge that this is a very difficult question.  My fundamental advice to women in this regard is:

If you want to get married, take your husband hunt seriously from the beginning.

If dating is intoxicatingly fun, you aren’t doing it right.  This is a profoundly serious choice you are considering.  You have been given great power as a young woman in the sexual marketplace;  don’t squander it by playing a game of judging the performance.  Don’t mistake your selectivity when it comes to sex partners or your desire to have the man tell you he loves you, or your preference for serial monogamy as signs that you aren’t promiscuous.  And don’t ever assume marriage is simply yours for the taking.

But taking your husband hunt seriously upfront doesn’t mean you have license to marry before you are wise enough to choose, or (just as important) ready to stand by your life long vow.  It also doesn’t mean you are free to marry a man you don’t really love.

Adding to the difficulty, many women seem to struggle to discern between real options and fantasy.  They also face increased searching costs due to their mother’s generation being uncomfortable with slut shaming.  Given all of these difficulties, it is amazing that any young women successfully navigate this challenge.  Yet many seem to do so without fanfare, and one thing we know is that for women looking to marry, fortune favors the decisive.

Ah, forget it;  I’m sounding like Polonius.  Get out there and have fun ladies!  God will guide your heart.

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78 Responses to Boundless is their foolishness.

  1. Christina says:

    Isn’t the old saying, “God helps those who help themselves?” I was raised in a Christian household too, and taught to be really proactive about my life, except for when it came to finding a husband. Then it became “The Lord will provide.” I think a lot of Christian parents either made poor choices themselves and therefore give poor advice, or none at all. Biblical platitudes are one thing, but it’s quite another to apply biblical advice to life’s realities.

    Fortunately, even though my parents didn’t provide much relationship advice, they modeled what a good marriage should look like (aside from “guys will say anything to get in your pants,” which turned out to be pretty useful), so I knew early on that the sexy,flashy types weren’t necessarily good husband material.

  2. I agree with your advice. It is all you can really do and the rest is up to them. I recall a few commenters from my blog who stated or appear to be one of the “good women” and they ask me advice about finding a “godly man”, but they also just don’t seem serious enough in their search. I advised if you aren’t finding anyone at church or in your social community to try online dating.Make a very detailed ad that spells out your values (want to be SAHM, homeschool, etc). No sugarcoating. Yet the response I get back is something along the lines, “oh, [ho hum] maybe I’ll try that someday” or “I don’t know….online dating seems scary”. Well, how serious are you? The important things in life involve risk. If you are really serious, you will try EVERYTHING, every avenue available, but all too often it seems even the Christian women are consumed with the ‘marriage and babies will come someday” thinking. They just end it with “marriage and babies will come at God’s timing (rather than someday). Secular women think that by medical technology or “feeling” young that having a baby after 40 will come naturally. Sometimes, I wonder if Christian women think if they just pray enough or have faith enough a baby will also come naturally after 40.

    There are also so many young female Christian blogs who focus on homemaking and preparing themselves for their future husband, but I have to wonder just how serious are they when they are getting older and older and still writing about and waiting for this mythical husband. What is all this homemaking going to be worth when you get to be 30 with no man in sight? I understand homemaking for the sake of homemaking, but these women write with their future husband’s benefit in mind. Some follow the quiverfull movement and want large families, but they are also in their mid twenties and not married. It doesn’t add up. I can think of several blogs where the women seem really sweet and good wife material, but I also just don’t see a motivation to actually get married because of the “on God’s timing” thinking.

  3. Will S. says:

    @ Dalrock: Hear, hear! Good post.

    @ Laura: “What is all this homemaking going to be worth when you get to be 30 with no man in sight?”

    Well, having stocked pantries full of strawberry jam once, they’ll never have to make it ever again!😉

    (j/k) Agree completely.

  4. Gwen says:

    Excellent post! You are exactly right, and I have been hammering on this point with my daughters since they were old enough to ask how Mommy and Daddy came to get married. Earlier actually – I didn’t wait for them ask. As soon as they started talking about princesses and falling in love, I started talking up the procedure I went through to find their father.

    I was very, very shy when I was young. I still am, but age-related experience has given me more confidence. When I was in my 20s I was too shy to even look at a man, much less flirt. (Surprisingly, I did manage to get engaged, but he turned out to be epitome of all the negatives of being an alpha, so I gave him his ring back.) Toward my late 20s I noticed a similarity between all us single women of the same age. We weren’t getting out there where we could meet men. It was like we were waiting for God to deposit Prince Charming on our doorsteps. And I realized what a bad strategy that was, so I decided to change what I was doing.

    I knew I could never just start going to bars or dances or whatever and meet guys that way. I needed something more formal, so I tried dating services of various kinds, and though I didn’t meet anyone I wanted to get to know better, I was meeting and talking with more men than I had since high school. Eventually, a friend pointed me toward this new idea of meeting people online and I signed up with a penpal site that also let you specify that you were looking for love.

    Now, I’d spent the time after breaking up with my fiance doing some long hard thinking about what I wanted in a husband and where my priorities lay. I used a Venn diagram to visualize. Among all the men in the world there were only so many who shared my values (and I was very clear in my own head what my values were. My religious faith has always been extremely important to me.) I would only look within that group that shared my values. From within that group, there would be another group of men that I could be friends with – men with whom I would enjoy hanging out and having (non-sexual) fun with and be able to have the kind of great conversation where you don’t notice that hours of gone by.. (After all, sex is important, but you can only spend so much time on it, after all. You do have to talk with each other at some point!) Lastly, I would only marry a man whom I could love and desire. Nothing less would be fair to either of us.

    I met a lot of guys through that penpal site (there weren’t many women online back then, so the pickings were good), including my husband, who is still the man of my dreams. My friends and family freaked that I was marrying someone I’d met online – they’d never heard of such a thing before and were convinced that I’d been taken in by an axe murderer. And then I compounded my crimes by getting three of my shy single friends to do the same thing! They are all happily married now, too. And I plan on pushing my daughters – not into internet dating necessarily – but into planning ahead about marriage and using the same three-step elimination process I did. I have every hope it will work as well for them as it did for me.

  5. mmack says:

    Dalrock,

    As I pointed out on the Cap’n’s site, the key to the story is “I”

    “I”
    “I”
    “I”
    “I get, I want, I see, I need”

    When it is all about “I”, it’s hard to see other people. If this woman is TRULY about going out and getting what she wants, then getting married and having children must not be high on her list since she COULD figure out how to do it.

    “I” am done posting, and “I” am going to go back in the kitchen to kiss MY wife for cooking such a good dinner, then WE will cuddle up by the fire and kiss.

  6. Anonymous says:

    And they read things like this on Shine…

    “Are Progressive Relationships the New Normal?” 17 Oct 2011
    http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/sex/are-progressive-relationships-the-new-normal-2588754/

    “Here’s the thing, the traditionalists aren’t wrong. At least I don’t believe they are. They are in danger of being marginalized, though. There will be a tipping point when, because of a complete shift in cultural norms, they will be left clinging to those tried and true societal strictures….alone.”

    Great.

  7. Looking Glass says:

    The Lord does provide: you have food, shelter, functioning hands, functioning feet and a will to see things done. And then you want God to air drop a Prince Charming.

    These two things are not like each other!

    And they aren’t really putting themselves in a position to even realize when a guy has been put in their life, normally. What they want is rather than the “knock on the door” style “provided” guy, they want him to act like a SWAT team in their life and barrage in. While God can occasionally hit you up the side of the head, you still have to listen.

    The funny bit is about “learned helplessness” in the comments. It’s not “God will provide”, it’s “you will not be forsaken”. There’s a big difference between the points. One is to have God handing you goodies; the other is he won’t leave you hanging out to dry. The second is what is on offer, while the first is what we’ve tried to convince ourselves God will always do.

    As one who’s had to deal with his own fair share of life-altering events, when I get back into dating here in the nearish future, I’m not exactly going to stand in one spot, look at God and go “well?”. I’m going to do the work that’s necessary to find a spouse. Why would I want to deny the other abilities I’ve been granted in the use for something I want (but, technically, don’t need)?

  8. Looking Glass says:

    I have to steal a line from one of the commenters on the Captain’s site. It’s just too good not to copy:

    “I love the rest of the article, she’s not just got the hamster going, she’s got the Holy Hamster of Antioch.”

  9. L says:

    “I wait on God, hoping He’s listening to the true desires of my heart, and grappling with what it means if He hears those desires but has a different path for me.”

    That means “I hope God delivers the perfect man that can meet all of 207 point check list, because gosh darnit, I deserve it.”

  10. Anon7 says:

    I think the core problem is that modern Christians are so incredibly bereft of wisdom when it comes to issues of love and marriage.

    In short, they are liberals. And this despite all the liberal yammer about how “conservative” Christians are.

  11. A lot of great points made in the post and in the comments. I would like to reiterate earlier point(s) that suggest men and women should, in essence, ‘date with intentionality’. Not necessarily “no fun”, but that dating is the screening process one uses to husband/wife hunt and as such is serious business.

    I too have noticed the tendency of women to think that God / Gaia / the Flying Spaghetti Monster is going to crap out a mate for them and that they need not do anything at all. Sit back and be served. Quite an interesting sight for those who are quite controlling with the remainder of their lives.

  12. Anonymous says:

    Holy Hamster of Antioch…

  13. L says:

    Lol, now that’s an alpha male.

  14. Anacaona says:

    @Gwen
    Aside from the engagement this was almost my life story. I’m extroverted and very good at talking and meeting men…that I’m not attracted to. I’m attracted to the shy type and it was hard for me to flirt (I can’t still flirt worth a damn) but I realized in my mid 20’s that I had to be proactive or I will never get married. I took some modeling classes to up my looks at least one point more so when I target men that I liked I would have more confidence in doing the first step and maybe a bigger chance to get a yes. It worked like a charm. Young women need to treat searching a husband like is a career with plan, steps, homework and tests. And once they find the man make sure they have everything on their side so he realizes you are worth the ring, YMMV.

  15. krakonos says:

    @Elusive Wapiti
    I too have noticed the tendency of women to think that God / Gaia / the Flying Spaghetti Monster is going to crap out a mate for them and that they need not do anything at all. Sit back and be served. Quite an interesting sight for those who are quite controlling with the remainder of their lives.
    Well, I understand the mentality. I noticed that young girls jump from relationship to a relationship no matter how unattractive they are*. When you listen to them it is something like “that guy is interested in me, and another one too, …”. It comes for them with minimum effort (in their formative years). That’s how the world works when they are young. So, naturally, they expect it will last forever. They are so passive because they can (or could in past) afford it.

    *Of course it is a bit exaggerated.

  16. gabriel says:

    From the original post:

    Good news: this is the life of a Christian. My Father is working everything out. He will provide for me. Today, I have everything I need for life and godliness. Today, nothing good has been withheld from me. Today, He is ordaining every detail of my day for my good. Today, I don’t need to be anxious about anything because He will take care of me.

    The answer to the “why am I single” question is always: Because Jesus loves you. Because this is Him giving you what you need for today. Because this is the only way you’re going to finish this race. Because He promised to give you what was good and best and the key to your ultimate joy—and He’s going to do that, despite your attempts to sabotage your life.

    We have what we need for today. I’m not sure if I’ll ever have my own little baby to rock back to sleep. But I do know that I can cast my cares on Him; God listens and He’ll provide exactly what I need to live a life that glorifies Him.

    I can’t say how many modern Christians are like that, but I noticed, long time ago, many of them being a sort of ‘reversed Christians’ – God has a duty to make their life good and sometimes failing big time to accomplish this task. In short, Denise Morris is telling ‘God is my husband’.

  17. Spinster says:

    “Well, I understand the mentality. I noticed that young girls jump from relationship to a relationship no matter how unattractive they are*. When you listen to them it is something like “that guy is interested in me, and another one too,”

    Younger Women enjoy the “buzz” of having so many men “interested” in them so this acts as a disincentive to settling down and getting married young as they will have to forego the “thrill”/ego validation. Of course as you and others mentioned they think that this will continue forever, or at least for as long as they want it to.

  18. Opus says:

    I suspect Dalrock links this kind of story just to get us going.

    Are we seriously to believe that this attractive educated woman who ‘has it all going for her’ has somehow gone through, say, the last ten years, oblivious to men, or somehow not responding to what must have been copious male interest, unless she was riding that well-known carousel, and are we really to suppose that somehow her chances now of meeting a person of the opposite sex is almost over?

    Personally, whenever I meet a christian woman I praise the Lord (Pagan that I am) as they always raise the bar far too high, and tumbling them into bed is thus fairly easy.

  19. imnobody says:

    As Christina says, “God helps who help themselves”. God will provide you with opportunities, you have to seize them and work on them.

    If a Christian woman wants to have a degree, she will not stay at home watching TV, but she will go to college, work hard and pray for the Lord to give her this extra help (for examplehaving luck at the subjects included in the exams).

    Why, then, are things so different when it comes to marriage? Why does Christianity degenerate into magical thinking when it comes to marriage?

    I think the problem is the effect of feminism on the dating market. It’s difficult to have advice to a young woman about how to get a husband. The woman’s role has always been passive. In ancient times, the young woman’s parent selected the husband (that is, the marriages were arranged). In modern times, she is passive twice: during the approach and during the proposal. So what’s a woman to do?

    She can smile and play coy during the approach to convey interest, but this is a lost art for women, who regard femininity as outdated and a tool of the patriarchy and they relish in being rude and masculine. They relish in being rude and rejecting men because they have been told that the only way to get a man is playing hard to get (the only strategy that is compatible with the feminism “empowerment”).

    About the proposal, it gets tricky. With sexual liberation, men are not especially interesting in getting married. But women stick to the old role of being passive so they wait and wait and wait…

    Another thing is that Christian women have absorbed the hypergamous entitlement of the American culture so, when they say: “Why hasn’t God sent me a godly man?”, they mean “Why hasn’t God sent me a Christian alpha?”

    Lower your standards, smile, be pleasant with men and when you have a boyfriend, be pleasant and treat him well. With all women acting like entitled princesses, a man knows a good deal when he sees it.

    It has worked with me: I am one year with my gf and I think I cannot lose her, because I won’t find anyone like her. When the time is due, I will propose.

  20. zed says:

    I too have noticed the tendency of women to think that God / Gaia / the Flying Spaghetti Monster is going to crap out a mate for them and that they need not do anything at all. Sit back and be served.

    It looks to me that praying for a husband is something of a subset of the whole prosperity gospel – almost seeming to carry the message that believing is such hard work that it is all the work you ever need to do and everything else will just fall in place. It reminds me of the old Cargo Cults – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

    The cults focus on obtaining the material wealth (the “cargo”) of the advanced culture through magic and religious rituals and practices. Cult members believe that the wealth was intended for them by their deities and ancestors.

    The primary association in cargo cults is between the divine nature of “cargo” (manufactured goods) and the advanced, non-native behavior, clothing and equipment of the recipients of the “cargo”. Since the modern manufacturing process is unknown to them, members, leaders, and prophets of the cults maintain that the manufactured goods of the non-native culture have been created by spiritual means, such as through their deities and ancestors, and are intended for the local indigenous people, but that the foreigners (“patriarchs”) have unfairly gained control of these objects through malice or mistake.[3] Thus, a characteristic feature of cargo cults is the belief that spiritual agents will, at some future time, give much valuable cargo and desirable manufactured products to the cult members.[3]

    Given their relative isolation, the cult participants generally have little knowledge of modern manufacturing and are liable to be skeptical about modern explanations.[3] (Reminds me of TFH’s frequent comments about not understanding cause and effect.)>

    Instead, symbols associated with Christianity and modern Western society tend to be incorporated into their rituals as magical artifacts, for example the use of cross-shaped grave markers.

    Cargo cults thus focus on efforts to overcome what they perceive as the undue influence of the others attracting the goods, (“patriarchal oppression”, anyone?) by conducting rituals imitating behavior they have observed among the holders of the desired wealth and presuming that their deities and ancestors will, at last, recognize their own people and send the cargo to them instead. Notable examples of cargo cult activity include the setting up of mock airstrips, airports, offices, and dining rooms, as well as the fetishization and attempted construction of Western goods, such as radios made of coconuts and straw. Believers may stage “drills” and “marches” with sticks for rifles and use military-style insignia and national insignia painted on their bodies to make them look like soldiers, thereby treating the activities of Western military personnel as rituals to be performed for the purpose of attracting the cargo.

  21. MarkyMark says:

    The bitch who wrote the Boundless piece is just another entitled, American feminazi career chick man hater with a nicer paint job. IOW, she doesn’t cuss like her secular counterparts do. The woman speaks like a feminist career chick. Sorry, for a Godly, Christian man seeking a wife, that is MOST unattractive to him.

  22. greyghost says:

    This christian woman crap is just that. A modern american or western woman in general labels herself christian as another creditial of her status.(I’m not a slut and I rate a white gown) They are no different and maybe “worse” worse than any non beleiver based on the divorce stats dalrock brings in. All these great western women are still hunting for the loyal dude they can proudly shit on with no legal, moral or social obligation what so ever to the new christian pack mule they have.
    Some of the women here are getting there. They seem to at leaste have a hint of understanding that they serve god. It is like the old joke about the guy drowning in the flood. He turns away a fisherman, and a helicopter saying no worries god is going to save me. Well the dumb ass drowns and is bitching at god and god tells him he sent him a boat and a helicopter and turned them away. God made you young and sexually atractive and young men the horny bastards that will do anything for pussy. (the entire modern world can said to be built to provide for pussy) And even then with all of that you still make it into an aged out timed out bitter hole bitching about no good men.
    If women god forbid focused more on what they had to offer (beside good looks and a vagina)and not what they where getting they would be much happier over a long life span when looked back on.

  23. zhai2nan2 says:

    ‘The Bible says my very apartment address has been appointed by God and every day of my life is written by Him and He is always and in every way holding all things together by the power of His word. There is only One in control, and it is not me. He holds the hearts of Kings in His hand.’

    I’d be interested to see the chapter and verse where the Bible mentions apartment numbers. There’s a line about “the hairs on your head are numbered,” and there’s a bit about the angel of death passing by the thresholds splashed with blood, but “apartment number” is not in my copy.

    In the Catholic church, there are saints.
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08464a.htm

    Devotion to Saint John Francis Regis seems appropriate. If nothing else, the desirous woman can go to every church in town and light a candle to the cause of her marriage. The saints might listen, and if they don’t, perhaps the altar boys will hit on her.

  24. terri says:

    While I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of the post Dalrock, I think a fundamental thing is missing. It’s the fear factor.

    The reason why these young women are so confident when it comes to college, career, etc. and so tentative when it comes to their desire for a husband is that they are afraid. It’s foolish to think you can be proactive in every other area but passive in your relationship ambitions, but that’s the issue.

    You’re correct that the church is missing the big picture but the idea behind this is that marriage is too big a decision for you to make without clear Divine guidance. They fail to recognize that the Divine guidance has been provided beforehand: Choose well, and honor your commitment once its made.
    It’s one of those things where they have plausible deniability if for some “mysterious reason” things don’t work out. They prayed, they waited, they let God guide them!

    The Bible doesn’t indicate that we are supposed to sit on our hands and wait for a mate.

  25. jack says:

    Cargo-cult thinking also explains why so many women who try to be a “tough career bitch” fail miserably when they try to ape true male leadership characteristics.
    This is why so many women have such trouble understanding the difference between being strong and being difficult, as noted in a recent Dalrock post.

    Haha- feminism was a cargo cult of penis envy!! I just figured it out!!

  26. rmaxd says:

    Arent these women indecisive, precisely because theyre holding out for alphas? …

    & telling women to wait for god to do the work, over dosing a womans hamster, to the point of no return, as she lets god find the local alpha to work in mysterious ways …

    A woman doesnt take her role as a providor for her children seriously, mainly because i’m guessing it has something to do with society indulging a womans every depraved need of their hamster & degree’s in engineering catfarms for a living …

    & of course women expect to be guaranteed a husband … for being a certain gender… despite the realities of their hypergamous nature conflicting with her career u go girl minivan …

  27. rmaxd says:

    “While I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of the post Dalrock, I think a fundamental thing is missing. It’s the fear factor.”

    I think it has a lot less to do with the fear of a wrong choice, & more to do with a fear of holding out for an alpha over a decent guy

    What i call a better alpha fish in the sea syndrome …

  28. This is exactly the type of woman who will become a part of my Sunday Morning Nightclub exploits. If she lives in the DC area, there’s a good chance this will happen.

    This is also an example of why I pick up chicks at church. What will happen if this woman actually gets a husband. It will be a disaster for that guy.

  29. rmaxd says:

    This is essentially an advert for christian feminism, trying to advertise how exempt a good Old Fashioned christian is from the search for a man slave, erm hubby …

    Old fashioned christians are so exempt from the smp, to the point the choice of men makes them indecisive

    Lets entertain for a moment there are pure & devout women, who want to be committed to a partner …

    How successful is this subgroup in actually finding a relationship?

    As opposed to the HB9 who’s well aware of her sexuality & ability to find a mate?

    Is modern christians answer to modern day life, ie god, if taught rigorously equal to a HB9’s ability to find a relationship?

  30. rmaxd says:

    I seriously wish there was an edit button in the comments section lol …

    Is modern christians answer to modern day life, ie god, if taught rigorously equal to a HB9′s ability to find a relationship?

    In the past the social structure obviously existed to allow this, but how well is strict fundamentalism going to compete with a hb9’s ability to hold & keep a husband in a committed relationship, without the social structure of the past?

  31. Anon7 says:

    It’s foolish to think you can be proactive in every other area but passive in your relationship ambitions

    Why? Relationships for women are not like careers or academia. In careers and academia, when a woman goes against her nature and acts aggressively, she is rewarded (though this reward has a “be careful what you wish for” aspect when she winds up “successful” but 45 and both manless and childless). In relationships, a woman who goes against her nature and acts aggressively is punished – men reject her as “too pushy” – and even if she gets what she supposedly wants, she despises the man she catches. Nothing dries up the ‘gina faster than a man who submits to her will by allowing himself to be caught.

    It is not “fear” that holds a woman back from being “proactive” in relationships, but hypergamy. She wants to be passive (pursued), not active (the pursuer). Any man she catches is, by definition, of a lower status than her and unworthy.

  32. Dalrock says:

    @Gabriel

    From the original post:

    Good news: this is the life of a Christian. My Father is working everything out. He will provide for me. Today, I have everything I need for life and godliness. Today, nothing good has been withheld from me. Today, He is ordaining every detail of my day for my good. Today, I don’t need to be anxious about anything because He will take care of me.

    It strikes me that in true feminist form she has replaced the real (and therefore confining) authority her father and later husband would have over her in a patriarchal society with God, whom she hands all responsibility. She of course retains all authority over herself and her actions, barring a notarized and duly served/processed edict from God directly to her.

    @Terri

    It’s one of those things where they have plausible deniability if for some “mysterious reason” things don’t work out. They prayed, they waited, they let God guide them!

    I think this is exactly it. It isn’t fear of choosing (authority), it is fear of accepting responsibility. It brings to mind (in reverse) the old joke about how football players are always praising God for their latest touchdown, but you don’t hear Everything was going great until Jesus made me fumble! These women have flipped that noble script into something entirely ignoble.

    @jack

    Haha- feminism was a cargo cult of penis envy!! I just figured it out!

    That description fits amazingly well. Good insight (to Zed as well).

  33. laceagate says:

    From my experience, this argument is often used for the following reasons:

    1. Lots of young women plan accordingly based on facts and from the wisdom of their elders, but do not see the results they want;
    2. Lots of young women plan and want to see results on their timetable
    3. Young women are normally discouraged from thinking long-term and are told that doing so is detrimental.

    Young christian women are told that they should have a plan because they don’t know what their futures will really hold. But they still believe that by age 24, they will be married and by the time they are 28 they will be having their 2nd or 3rd child. When it doesn’t happen, it can either be devastating or disappointing. This timetable sets them up for expecting what can’t be demanded. The women younger than they are, often teenagers, see this and decide they will do what they so shall please.

    If younger women had the fear that Terri was talking about, there would be room for understanding and expecting consequences. A lot of young women say “Let God guide your heart” and take that is failing to foresee long-term implications because God will clean up the mess, since He already knows what will happen.

  34. laceagate says:

    I agree with TFH! And it wouldn’t abide by the “checklist” mentality that most women have, but it would be done within the terms of their best interests. There is a reason why family members and close friends are involved in the process.

  35. Pingback: Promiscuity is good, so long as it is done on the woman’s terms. | Dalrock

  36. PT Barnum says:

    YOUNG WOMEN ARE NOT BEING LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES.

    Those who know better support young women making good choices “in their heads”.

    Those who are howling lunatic creatures won’t shut up. Firebombed is just another example of Twilight idiocy.

    So NO, young women have ABSOLUTELY NOT been left to their own devices. I’m looking at you, every single older woman.

    As a side note, I’ve thought about it and I suppose there are valid biblical reasons for not having sex before marriage. However, if unless you believe in God… and by that I mean real, actual, belief, then it’s just an annoying stunt I would have little tolerance for past say a month of serious dating.

  37. laceagate says:

    PT, you are right in stating what is true.
    Parents and older women are often the sources of this “do what your heart says” foolishness. At one time even Alte said that she wished she had married at 18, but it was her parents who pushed the “live your life” ideal. Not that Alte hasn’t chosen well or didn’t make wise choices with her life. Most young women aren’t at the level of thinking where they realize life isn’t what it’s all cracked out to be in their early 20’s.

  38. Random Angeleno says:

    Branch Rickey said “Luck is the residue when opportunity meets design”. This applies to dating and marriage as much as does to anything else in life. Women looking to marry need to “design” their lives around the active search for “opportunities” then they would have a better chance of finding “luck”. This goes double if they are not all that in looks. The Lord helps those who help themselves in this area of life as much as it does everywhere else.

    That bit about accepting responsibility for the consequences of her choices… I suspect this is the most scary part for many women.

    PS I’ve never spent any time on Boundless: anyone care to share what happens when somebody pipes up with the action meme?

  39. Badger says:

    It is mind-boggling how little agency young women undertake wrt finding partners. It seems an element of hypergamy and dominance-seeking that while young women have lots of bargaining power, what they really lust for is a man who refuses to bargain with them and simply insists on his way or the highway. This combines with a cultural tropes about romantic “meet-cutes” and “it just happened” as a mating strategy.

    I have contended that Kate Bolick’s mistake was simply not treating husband-hunting like it was a job. She didn’t seem like a pathologically narcissistic or misguided person, just someone who thought Mr Right would come along as a side effect of her living her normal lifestyle. Obviously she just floated in and out of a few relationships after dumping her best shot at marriage without feeling a sense of urgency about her search.

    Shirley there’s a sense of not wanting to look desperate, but even (especially) PUAs know that you have to mine a lot of ore to find a gem. Ultimately, I think her feminist imprinting disallowed her from honestly stating she wanted to have a husband, that would betray the code of strong-independent-awesome. But then we have to debate how interested she really is in being a wife, since most of her article is dedicated to explaining why most men don’t fit her checklist.

    It is interesting how Susan Walsh’s advisees have dialed down their career plans in anticipation of family time, which will have the collateral affect of keeping their hypergamy under control.

    Bolick also said something weirdly contradictory, that she wasn’t going to let her biology (i.e. her declining fertility) to determine her romantic life…but that any guy she considered marrying had better be OK with adopting, even though she said she “didn’t know” if she wanted kids. So the guy has to be committed to kids (adopting isn’t like shopping for a new car) so she has the freedom to make up her mind later.

  40. Why? Relationships for women are not like careers or academia. In careers and academia, when a woman goes against her nature and acts aggressively, she is rewarded (though this reward has a “be careful what you wish for” aspect when she winds up “successful” but 45 and both manless and childless). In relationships, a woman who goes against her nature and acts aggressively is punished – men reject her as “too pushy” – and even if she gets what she supposedly wants, she despises the man she catches. Nothing dries up the ‘gina faster than a man who submits to her will by allowing himself to be caught.

    It is not “fear” that holds a woman back from being “proactive” in relationships, but hypergamy. She wants to be passive (pursued), not active (the pursuer). Any man she catches is, by definition, of a lower status than her and unworthy.

    We’re talking about agency not pursuit. If a person wants something, they have to do something to get it. Men understand this. A woman who spends all of her time at work, church, or alone at home isn’t going to have men pursing her because men won’t know she exists. This doesn’t mean she necessarily has to pursue men, but it means she has to take action. She has to place herself in a position to be pursued. (That may not be enough, but that’s beyond the scope of this comment.) Otherwise, her best hope is to end up being fodder for my Sunday Morning Nightclub exploits.

  41. Mrs. P says:

    As a long time reader of the Boundless website, I have to argue that Boundless has always advocated SEEKING a spouse, rather than just sitting around waiting for him/her to pop out of the ground. If you were to simply look through some of their articles under “Dating & Courtship” you’d see this message over and over again. One of their contributing authors has even written a book called “Get Married: What Women Can Do To Help It Happen”. They also often write about “settling” for a godly spouse, rather than always waiting for someone better to come along. They say that no matter who you marry you will always be settling because you will marry a sinner. But at the same time we are never settling because, as sinners ourselves, we don’t deserve any spouse. So all that to say, I feel like you judged Boundless (and the entirety of Christianity) by that one paragraph from that one article rather than seeing what else the writers of Boundless have to say. The author is correct in believing that God does orchestrate when, where and how we will meet our future spouse, but Boundless has always advocated actually DOING SOMETHING to find a spouse (just like how the bible says a man who FINDS a wife finds a good thing).

  42. Susan says:

    Well, I feel for her, because I was like her. It’s definitely challenging, especially when you consider that there are more women than men in the church, and many of the men who are there don’t seem to feel urgency about getting married. Many women turn to books like Elisabeth Elliott’s Passion and Purity, and get hammered again by the message that women should not initiate at all. One gets the impression Elisabeth would frown on any flirtatious mannerisms, or even inviting a man to join a group activity. If God wants you to be with a certain man, He WILL make it happen. But any action on your part could sabotage it! The book is all about how Jim and Elisabeth Elliott were pure in their relationship. But there was definitely passion! No settling involved. Anyway, that’s just one example of the kind of book single Christian women read. Wait on the Lord and He will give you the best.

  43. Thanks for the link Dal. i actually know the answer to all of this. And without going into great detail it is simply a matter of cowardice and control.

    Control – In short, Christian women like this (not all) abuse Christianity for their own personal advancement. They don’t believe in the religion for a second, they see it as a tool that they can leverage against men (and others).

    Ergo, you run into, “well if you don’t see the Lord in your heart, I can’t date you.”

    Translation – “I’m going to give you the biggest shit test ever and make you jump through this hoop. If you do, then I can use this abstract religion to get you to do whatever I want.”

    And don’t get me started about how they use the bible as a means to extract a premium from you if you dare to suggest having sex.

    Cowardice – I also see them using Christianity as the ultimate Rationalization Hamster. It’s a way to absolve themselves of any responsibility for their bad choices. If they make a good decision and it benefits them, then it’s all “Great! Look at what I DID!”

    But if the choice proves bad or wrong, then it is “God’s will.”

    I could go on for ages, but just to whet the appetite of you and your readers, it was a Christian girl that was one of four snowflakes that caused the avalanche that made me the Manosphere Super Soldat that I am today.

  44. This article on “What Not to Say To Single Women in Your Church” is very relevant to this post:
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-shares-what-not-to-say-to-single-women-in-your-church-60599/

    In a nutshell, what I got out of it is that we aren’t to say anything to single women in church because it might hurt their feeeeeeelings! Apparently my advice for online dating is a failure because it suggests “‘I see that you’ve completely failed at attracting anyone in your physical world so have you tried to do it in an online world?”

    Another example–
    Instead of saying this:
    “I keep praying for someone to come along for you,” was one phrase that she believed could be better stated.

    We are to say this instead:
    “Instead of praying for that, why don’t you pray that I would be growing in Christlikeness so that if Mr. Wonderful walks into my life, I would be better suited to be a helpmate for him.”

    How on earth is that any better?! Praying only goes so far without telling the girl to get SERIOUS and take some action. Mr. Wonderful is not just going to walk into your life and he is not just going to be their for the taking when you are stronger in your “Christlikeness”.

    In general, it is said the standard advice to single Christian women is bad because “it made women trust less in God and more on themselves for their matrimonial future.”

    See, women aren’t expected to take any action! It really is unbelievable. For their career and livelihood future, going to college etc., is not taken as a sign that they trust God less, but in relationships it is.

    I’m starting to think the feminism in Christianity cuts much, much deeper than I originally thought. There seems something almost sinister behind the above quote to purposely keep Christian women single by leading her down a path of inaction.

    The linked article also references another article: “Dude, Where’s Your Bride”?, which is probably one of the best (albeit disgusting) examples that shaming Christian men to grow up and marry is also alive and well.

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/11/03/dude-wheres-your-bride/

  45. laceagate says:

    Many women turn to books like Elisabeth Elliott’s Passion and Purity, and get hammered again by the message that women should not initiate at all. One gets the impression Elisabeth would frown on any flirtatious mannerisms, or even inviting a man to join a group activity. If God wants you to be with a certain man, He WILL make it happen. But any action on your part could sabotage it!

    This is rather ridiculous and echoes a lot of the nonsense from Harris’ “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.” Both books– IKDG along with Passion and Purity send the messages to women that they ought to be waiting around for some guy to fall out of the sky and magically land next to her. I’ve read those books before and didn’t like IKDG because it seemed so strict in the way the sexes should interact with each other, and Passion and Purity almost seemed archaic.

    There are ways for young Christian women to effectively and chastely mingle amongst men if they are truly interested in marrying, but the strategy of waiting around won’t let anything happen.

    It is not always true that your own actions can sabotage being with a certain man. If a young woman is already in the process of discerning, wouldn’t she receive some sort of guidance with what she should do? I was never one for the “pray about it and forget about it,” routine, as if you stuck a chicken into the Ronco Rotisserie.

  46. Meyer says:

    “leaving young women to their own devices has created an unmitigated disaster”

    Yes, this is why we should return to the older system of honor/male guardianship of women– whereby a man needed a woman’s father’s or brother’s consent to date or marry her.

    I also think parents should take a more active role in finding mates for their daughters. While some cultures practice arranged or even forced marriages, ours goes to the other extreme by sending young people out into a fish bowl, with virtually no guidance, and hoping for the best. There needs to be a happy medium whereby parents and their daughters work together and try to reach agreement on the best matches.

  47. Paragon says:

    Many people here seem to be operating under a flawed assumption that marriage is a goal that is somehow always reconcilable with female choosiness(ie. female selectivity, often observed as hypergamy).

    It isn’t.

    If it were, the ‘carousel’ phenomenon could not observed for what it is – a wilful ‘compromise’, where selective females would rather indulge in short term mating with the most attractive males they can find, than condescend to less attractive males with strong indications of fidelity, and future investment.

    This latter is a compromise that can only be ‘imposed’ on female choice(a compromise which is necessary to the evolutionary stability of large populations – which developed world populations are slowly beginning to appreciate), given that female function as reproductively limiting manifests in inherent female selectivity which cannot otherwise reconcile systemic monogamy.

    And only those females who appreciate this, can be deemed genuine in their advocacy of a solution to what is unequivocally a systemic evolutionary problem.

    I say this without judgement, but in acknowledgement of a systemic problem which remains insoluble to personal solutions(ie. just because a subset of females happen to find husbands, says nothing about the systemic application of such a solution).

    Lastly, Darlock would seem to propose a demographic constant in some population of females that reject delinquent males as preferred breeding stock.

    Of course this neglects that there are no constants in populations where evolution is always operating on frequencies.

    Thus, the dominant fertility rates of single-mothers pose implications that render an inescapable
    conclusion for these future demographics(namely that females who prefer delinquent males should become increasingly common, given their corrlated reproductive fitness advantages).

  48. Dalrock says:

    @Laceagate

    A lot of young women say “Let God guide your heart” and take that is failing to foresee long-term implications because God will clean up the mess, since He already knows what will happen.

    This brings up an interesting question with regard to the infamous excuse #6. Does this mean God steered them wrong, or that they weren’t listening?

  49. Dalrock says:

    @Mrs. P

    I feel like you judged Boundless (and the entirety of Christianity) by that one paragraph from that one article rather than seeing what else the writers of Boundless have to say.

    I would be far more sympathetic to your argument if it weren’t for:

    1) All of the comments at the end of the post thanking her for reminding them that God would deliver a husband when he saw fit.
    2) Boundless hadn’t hired her to advise other young women about their own husband hunt. She isn’t just another commenter. She is blogging under the Boundless masthead, isn’t she?
    3) I hadn’t heard the same basic sentiment from many other Christian parents. I’m not the only one to notice this, other commenters here are familiar with this mindset.

    With all of this said, I have seen cases where they told women to settle. Haley is at odds with this and I actually agree with her, at least in part. My position is that women shouldn’t marry a man they can’t truly fall in love with, but that if they can’t fall in love with ordinary men something is very wrong (not unlike a man who can’t be attracted to ordinary women due to excessive exposure to porn). Boundless basically wants to sweep the issue under the rug and march these women down the aisle with unsuspecting future child support payers.

    If Christianity wasn’t so unbelievably weak regarding the meaning of marriage vows for women, this would still be problematic (the men deserve better than a broken wife) but it wouldn’t be so bad. As it stands the vast majority of Christians basically just want to turn the crank and have the meat go through the grinder so they can pretend all is well.

  50. Neddy says:

    “I want to write a book someday, so I write daily and I’m going to grad school to get credentials that will put some authority behind my name.”
    Do you think a publisher gives a rat’s ass if you have a degree in writing? Get real!

  51. Johnycomelately says:

    With this post I think Dalrock knocked off Roissy as the premier Manosphere commentator.

    A+ Comments
    “It comes for them with minimum effort (in their formative years). That’s how the world works when they are young. So, naturally, they expect it will last forever. ”

    “In short, they are liberals. And this despite all the liberal yammer about how “conservative” Christians are.”

  52. TikkTok says:

    Well, this is the thing- the guys aren’t coming with signs. How easy that would be: “Yes, I’m THE ONE“. 😆 Makes me wonder (and thinking of grey’s helicopter and boat analogy) if the point isn’t being missed in some measure- waiting on God to provide the man of *her* hearts desire- that is missing the point entirely. God isn’t catering to us. It’s about what HE wants for us. Perhaps a change in mindset ( from what “I” want to what “He wants for me”) might be beneficial….

  53. jack says:

    Random Angeleno-

    I was actually banned from boundless by a female editor because I would not toe the Christian Feminist line.

    It happened right after she assumed power. In true female fashion, she did not get comfortable in the position long before she wanted to try out the flyswatter.

    She is, in my opinion, a weak leader in that regard. Power needs to be given to the judicious, not to those who crave to make their power known.

    Bear in mind that in over a decade of participating in internet discussion, I have not ever been banned once.

    But one can one expect when a childish mind is placed in a position of power?

  54. Dalrock says:

    @Laura Grace Robins

    This article on “What Not to Say To Single Women in Your Church” is very relevant to this post:
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/pastor-shares-what-not-to-say-to-single-women-in-your-church-60599/

    Great find and analysis!

    In a nutshell, what I got out of it is that we aren’t to say anything to single women in church because it might hurt their feeeeeeelings! Apparently my advice for online dating is a failure because it suggests “‘I see that you’ve completely failed at attracting anyone in your physical world so have you tried to do it in an online world?”

    The whole piece is a warning not to damage the woman’s ego or give her a sense of urgency. Depending on the woman, this might be warranted. We certainly don’t want young women latching onto an unsuitable husband out of a sense of misplaced urgency and desperation. It would be cruel to do so given that this is a vow that Christians (at least in theory) believe must be kept for life.

    But what about the women who don’t have enough sense of urgency, or who have an inflated sense of their own marriage market value? These two traits tend to go very closely together. I suspect the former prevents them from coming to honest terms with the latter. Providing a sense of urgency and helping them deflate their outsized ego would then be helpful.

    In general, it is said the standard advice to single Christian women is bad because “it made women trust less in God and more on themselves for their matrimonial future.”

    This is exactly the pathology I had in mind when I wrote the post. I’ve been accused of being unfair to Christians in this regard, but examples of this are far too easy to find. When these women are thirsty, do they merely look towards the heavens and open their mouths so that God can quench their thirst with rain? How long are these hungry little birds going to remain in this ridiculous pose?

  55. zed says:

    But what about the women who don’t have enough sense of urgency, or who have an inflated sense of their own marriage market value?

    They eventually turn into Maureen Dowd or Liz Jones and spread their hatred over being left out to all men.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2056875/Liz-Jones-baby-craving-drove-steal-husbands-sperm-ultimate-deception.html

    These two traits tend to go very closely together. I suspect the former prevents them from coming to honest terms with the latter. Providing a sense of urgency and helping them deflate their outsized ego would then be helpful.

    Only true if is is a true and realistic deflation of their outsized egos, and not trying to cover up its appearance and stench with makeup and perfume.

    Take Lori Gottlieb for example. Even as a single mom past 35, her take was to “Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough” – not re-evaluate her opinion of herself and of men and look for reasons to value men more than she had been.

    I think it will take a lot more Maureen Dowds, and Liz Jones, and Kate Bolicks becoming more honest and giving the message to younger women that what they pursued in their lives was not as fulfilling as they were sold on it being, and what they passed up was likely much more satisfying than what they spent their lives pursuing.

    I seriously doubt that we “patriarchal oppressors” will ever have much credibility with young women except for some small percentage of our own daughters.

  56. Dalrock says:

    @Gwen

    Now, I’d spent the time after breaking up with my fiance doing some long hard thinking about what I wanted in a husband and where my priorities lay. I used a Venn diagram to visualize. Among all the men in the world there were only so many who shared my values (and I was very clear in my own head what my values were. My religious faith has always been extremely important to me.) I would only look within that group that shared my values. From within that group, there would be another group of men that I could be friends with – men with whom I would enjoy hanging out and having (non-sexual) fun with and be able to have the kind of great conversation where you don’t notice that hours of gone by.. (After all, sex is important, but you can only spend so much time on it, after all. You do have to talk with each other at some point!) Lastly, I would only marry a man whom I could love and desire. Nothing less would be fair to either of us.

    This is fantastic. I see this is only your second comment; clearly you have been holding out on us. Welcome to the blog!

    I love what you describe above. The problem as I see it isn’t that women are too choosy, it is that they haven’t considered what they really should be choosy about. It has been noted that Christian men are scarce relative to Christian women. This is probably compounded by a Christian man perhaps feeling more latitude to marry a woman who doesn’t start off as devout, since wives often follow their husbands (I’m not commenting on the wisdom of this). What this means is that a woman seeking a devout Christian husband needs to understand that this is a scarce trait, and she will pay a premium for it since all of the other women in her situation share that strong preference. She can’t compare the Christian men who are interested in her against the non Christian men. This is a critical step that she can’t skip, otherwise in her mind she is treating Christian as a sort of “cost free” trait in men, which has been established as false.

    You then whittled this down further with two very sensible requirements. I assume you also had learned about the danger of too much alpha and/or dark triad personality types based on your past experience, and were excluding them as well. This last part is really tricky, because as you said you had a very sensible requirement of being attracted to him and being able to truly fall in love with him. I don’t think women acknowledge what a razor’s edge of alpha/beta traits they are looking for in a man. It doesn’t take much too much alpha to make the greater beta a very poor choice for marriage. Likewise a bit more beta makes the same man boring, unattractive, unable to lead, etc. Unspoken also was I presume a requirement that the man have means or show good promise at least of being able to support a family. While there will be some variance among women, these basic preferences are all very common. Most women don’t understand how much the right balance of these basic traits is sought after by other women. If they did, they wouldn’t be disqualifying men for totally inane reasons. Instead they would give serious consideration to making some compromises on other less deal breaker traits.

    This whole process has the effect of whittling down the pool of eligible men to a very small defined group. Once you found such a man you could then understand indeed how rare he was, and were able to act decisively. I think many women intuitively navigate their way through the process. The ones we hear most from are the ones who can’t mentally process what they want and how scarce it really is. So they keep blindly looking and very likely are skipping past men who if they really were honest about their own attractiveness and how scarce what they truly wanted was they would be delighted to marry.

    The process reminds me of when my wife and I were looking for a used car for her. Most of our requirements were pretty basic. We were looking for a medium/small 4 door which was reliable and had good fuel economy. We also of course had a budget. The wild card was that my wife insists on driving a stick shift; an automatic was absolutely out of the question. This is such a high requirement that she would rather drive a car without AC in Dallas than an automatic (she actually did for several years).

    I went to one of the used car database websites and started searching around the Dallas/Fort Worth extended area. There were hundreds of new enough four door good fuel economy cars for sale in our area. I put in our price constraints and the results were halved. Then I put in the requirement for a stick shift, and it came back with I think 3 cars, all of them either over priced, beat up, or already sold. We ended up buying her a new stick shift instead.

  57. greyghost says:

    I think it will take a lot more Maureen Dowds, and Liz Jones, and Kate Bolicks becoming more honest and giving the message to younger women that what they pursued in their lives was not as fulfilling as they were sold on it being, and what they passed up was likely much more satisfying than what they spent their lives pursuing. That from zed.

    I think he is absolutely right and my goal is to make as many of those women as possible. That is where the phrase involuntary childless spinsterhood comes from. PUA, game, MGTOW supporting female desire to ride the cock carousel. Hell yeah honey sex in the city for you. What ever it takes childless spinsterhood.

  58. Pingback: Submitting to the patriarchy in their heads | Dalrock

  59. Doug1 says:

    Dalrock, you do great service in your important corner of the blogsophere/manosphere.

  60. laceagate says:

    @Laceagate

    A lot of young women say “Let God guide your heart” and take that is failing to foresee long-term implications because God will clean up the mess, since He already knows what will happen.

    This brings up an interesting question with regard to the infamous excuse #6. Does this mean God steered them wrong, or that they weren’t listening?

    They weren’t listening. To state that God steers one wrong is blasphemous.

    In addition, a lot of young women purposefully ignore the wiser choice when presented with multiple options. Often the wiser choice is the least attractive, requires more work on their part, and will put them in a position to experience hardships in life. These hardships would be character-building experiences that could help with understanding and accepting reality.

    Young women believe the lie that unless your youth is glamorous, fun-filled, and a time for “me exploration,” it’s wasted. Notice how this closely parallels the “Eat, Pray, Love” message.

  61. Aqua Net says:

    Well the difference is that there is all manner of education, training and support for one to enter the career track of their choice but there is no education, training and support for one to choose a mate.

  62. Badger says:

    “my wife insists on driving a stick shift; an automatic was absolutely out of the question. This is such a high requirement that she would rather drive a car without AC in Dallas than an automatic (she actually did for several years).”

    I would wager to say this is an excellent harbinger for your wife’s continued interest in sex.😉

  63. Badger says:

    “I think it will take a lot more Maureen Dowds, and Liz Jones, and Kate Bolicks becoming more honest and giving the message to younger women that what they pursued in their lives was not as fulfilling as they were sold on it being, and what they passed up was likely much more satisfying than what they spent their lives pursuing.”

    I was thinking about this today…feminism originally said there was more to life than housewifing, that things would be more fulfilling without being hooked to men. Then the women went to work and found out that work was hard, and you had to keep doing it, and most people get little glory out of it, and that two-career marriages have lots of dynamics challenges. So a new yarn was spun about being “fabulously single” where you could

    Maybe I’m wrong on the order here, but feminism just seems to constantly promise that whatever is bothering a woman, there’s a different lifestyle option out there that will eliminate boredom and bother. That’s what is behind the constant selling of divorce – the “neutron bomb” that will eliminate the negatives but keep the positives. We’d be much better off teaching women the same thing we teach men – that life has opportunity costs, and that you have to prioritize what you think you want for your future against what’s easy today.

  64. Badger says:

    “So a new yarn was spun about being “fabulously single” where you could”

    where you could have fun with men, but not have to worry about “picking up his socks” (the universal feminist and divorcee allegory for the negatives of men).

  65. Anon says:

    “I need to follow my heart”

    I heard my ex-wife say this, and my friends who’ve gotten divorced have reported similar statements from their ex-wives (3 of my friends, so my total sample size is 4). These marriages ranged from 11 years to 20 years, and 3 of the marriages had kids. The wives all initiated the divorces even though they were all married to successful, thoughtful, interesting, loving, dedicated family-men. I’m talking about seriously good men, whose only flaw might be that they’re a little lacking in game.

    Most of the wives used “follow my heart” to justify not only their divorce, but 3 of them used it to justify their affairs during the marriage also. Each of them researched things like “affairs empower women”, “divorce empowers women”, “women happier after divorce”, and “divorce better for kids”. They found plenty of support online and in mainstream media. Of course, you can find anything to support what you’re looking for when you go online to search. If I spent enough time searching for “abusing my children is empowering”, I could probably find a bunch of sites to support this.

    On the plus side (surprisingly), me and the other 3 husbands were able to negotiate joint 50/50 custody. All 4 of these women are depressed now. None of the women worked during their marriages, and all had to re-enter the workforce (which was hard because of the economy, but they all had advanced degrees, so they were in good position). However, they all now hate the demands of being the breadwinner on top of being a parent. I think they are all lonely, but I can’t be sure. A major reason that 2 of the women reportedly had their affairs and then divorced was because they were resentful of being a SAHM, even though in both cases this was a choice that the wife made and forced on the husband. These 4 women have all given up on dating, and the one who was childless is now a single mom. They were all sold a bill of goods, first by feminism, and then by the “divorce is empowerment” industry.

    To me, following “God” is just a thinly-veiled mask for “following your heart”, which basically means doing whatever the fuck you want as long as you think it might make you feel a little better in the short run, and everyone else be damned. I can understand doing this when you’re young, have few responsibilities, and need to experience different relationships in order to grow and mature. But I’m talking about grown women in their 40’s with marriages and kids and mortgages and car payments. I’m talking about women with solid, loving, supportive husbands. How about some personal accountability ladies? How about looking at what you have, appreciating the people who love you, and ignoring that voice in your head that tells you to look for some higher-status man to make everything all perfect and fairy-tale-like?

    I know that NAWALT, in fact, I know lots of women who aren’t like that at all. It’s just that there are too many bad messages for women out there, and it’s destroying too many good families.

  66. van Rooinek says:

    there are more women than men in the church,

    Fallacy. The vast “excess” of women in church is largely due to wayward divorced moms who return to church in their early/mid 30s after they’ve been dumped by wealthy nonChristian alphas to whom they got unequally yoked when they were young and hot and couldn’t give a good Christian man the time of day. Among those church singles who are biblically free to marry, the sex ratio (in my experience) tends to range from roughly even, to decidedly weighted toward males, depending on the church..

    and many of the men who are there don’t seem to feel urgency about getting married.

    Severe Apex Fallacy. Alpha males who have many choices may have no particular urgency to settle down — particularly if they are unchaste. But the man who is actually saving sex till marriage, whether he is a Beta with no natural game (his name is Legion), or a righteous Alpha who morally refuses to act like one, is DESPERATE for marriage.

    Many women turn to books like Elisabeth Elliott’s Passion and Purity, and get hammered again by the message that women should not initiate at all. One gets the impression Elisabeth would frown on any flirtatious mannerisms, or even inviting a man to join a group activity.

    Bad advice, on par with “I kissed dating goodbye” silliness. Men who have been initiating over and over, with no success — and who sometimes have their polite approaches shot down with shockingly cruel or patronizing responses (from “Christian women”!), tend eventually to give up initiating. Not for lack of courage — far from it — but because our courage went unrewarded, or even punished.

    In my case, by the time I hit mid 30’s, I’d sadly concluded that if woman wasn’t interested enough to make the first move, she just wasn’t interested. I’d learned the hard way not to make a cold approach, not even to someone already in my social circle who knew me reasonably well. “She knows I’m a nice guy, she knows my intentions are honorable — if she’s not interested, she’ll just politely say no.” — WRONG!!!! You never know just how evil that “nice girl at Bible study” really is, till you ask her to dinner.

    Word to the wise, if you rudely blow off the guy you DON’T want, the guy you DO want may hear of it, and never try. Especially if you do it publicly! Just sayin’.

  67. terri says:

    My husband came after me, no subtlety at all. His intentions were clear. He made it very easy for me but that’s how he is; a go-getter. This was a blessing because I was fearful of getting hurt. I’d seen a lot of it growing up and among my (much older) siblings.

    I have three teenage daughters and I’ve told them that they will have to be proactive about their desire to marry. I don’t get this whole “God will make a way” stuff when it comes to this issue. I don’t see that in the Bible. Ruth went after Boaz. Esther went after the pagan king she later married. Rebekah voluntarily went to a far country to marry Jacob sight unseen! (Okay, she knew he was rich, LOL).

    My point is that in this climate more than ever, even a good Christian girl will have to go on a date or two else she may find herself a spinster.

    I was looking around our church on a recent Sunday and I agree with Van. The tilt isn’t as far in favor of women as we’ve been led to believe. And given that we attend a church with a mostly black congregation, that’s saying something. When you take away for single mothers and divorcees, the split looks much more equitable.

  68. van Rooinek says:

    Terri: Rebekah voluntarily went to a far country to marry Jacob sight unseen! (Okay, she knew he was rich, LOL).

    She also knew he was a relative! Ya might be a redneck…

  69. van Rooinek says:

    My husband came after me, no subtlety at all. His intentions were clear.

    Sounds like me from age 14 to about 35, til I got burned out. Tell me though — did you ever get such a bold approach from men you DIDN’T want? If so, how did you let them down? Can you explain why some Christian women are openly cruel to men they aren’t interested in?

    I was looking around our church on a recent Sunday and I agree with Van. The tilt isn’t as far in favor of women as we’ve been led to believe…When you take away for single mothers and divorcees, the split looks much more equitable.

    I think I mentioned this once over at Alte’s, but: I once organized a singles event for the over-30 singles set at a former church. Every man who showed up, was never married, no kids, gainfully employed, and in decent shape. ALL…ALL… of the women who showed up, were divorced/separated mothers, except for a couple of hopeless fatties.

    One of the pastors praised me for what I was trying to do, but between the lines I got the hint that it was futile. I never tried that again. Soon after I discovered internet dating, which is how I ultimately got married.

  70. terri says:

    Tell me though — did you ever get such a bold approach from men you DIDN’T want?

    Well yes, but not as often as some women. The men where I grew up were generally more bold in their approach in general (it’s true that black men are more cocky) but I had no use for men who weren’t at least trying to live an honorable life. I wasn’t looking for a rich man or a provider because like most 20 year olds I was on the college track and getting ready to make my own way, no man required.

    The lack of offers was due to may factors not the least of which was that I lived at home with an attack dog for a dad. I was 20 years old when I left home. Didn’t date much. I met my husband when I was 21 and we were married 18 months later.

  71. Aqua Net says:

    I work with senior citizens and one drawback for swallowing the 1950s housewife koolaid is that now these very same women are widows and don’t know how to do ANYTHING. They are also taking huge financial hits as they were dependent upon their husband’s pension, social security and health insurance benefits. Many have had to move out of their solidly middle class retirement neighborhoods into neighborhoods of lesser financial means and what could be described as “borderline” in terms of safety.

    These old ladies are in a state of shock. Everything simple from getting an oil change to dealing with changes in car insurance they are simply don’t know how to go about and are getting cheated every step of the way.

    I’ll also add that they don’t know how to cook because the 1950’s ushered in the frozen and canned food era so their idea of a “homecooked meal” is just that – frozen and canned dinners. They also drink soda pop in place of, and as if it were water.

    I’ve seen alot of melancholy longing for the “good ol’ days” round these parts, but if these women are the example – I’m glad I’m living now.

  72. Joe Blow says:

    I have a son. But if I had a daughter, I’d tell her to do what my wife did. Look for a basically good guy with a lot of upside potential and the desire to make her happy, to have a family and help her reach her goals. Then get married, start a family, and work every day to help him live up to his potential. It’ll work out, and the woman’s support and encouragement is the main thing that will make it happen (along with the guy’s energy and basic drive to achieve, can’t marry a total slacker…)

    The notion that some pretty, fully cooked rich guy will come along and sweep them off their feet into his 5 Series, and take her away to his $3 million house in a swank part of town is nuts. Very few guys have their act together at a good young marriageable age; and those that do have often peaked. You want a millionaire? Marry a nice, smart, hard working poor guy who is 25 with a lot of ideas and energy, and stick with him until he is 55. He’ll be a millionaire by then.

  73. van Rooinek says:

    Since the modern manufacturing process is unknown to them, members, leaders, and prophets of the cults maintain that the manufactured goods of the non-native culture….are intended for the local indigenous people, but that the foreigners….have unfairly gained control of these objects through malice or mistake. Thus, a characteristic feature of cargo cults is the belief that spiritual agents will, at some future time, give much valuable cargo and desirable manufactured products to the cult members.

    Socialism is a cargo cult, and Obama is its prophet. Why didn’t I see it before?

  74. Aqua Net says:

    In capitalist globalism, which is pure profiteering, there is no moral objective. The bottom line is profit. Capitalists are not patriots who are in it for their country or fellow man. They are in it purely for profit. If their profit means half their own countrymen and women will be out of jobs, so be it. They have no moral obligation to provide their fellow Americans with jobs. Non whatsoever.

    They way you can bleed this beast dry is by buying local and American made.

  75. Pingback: Glenn Stanton of Focus on the Family praises “heroic” unwed mothers | Dalrock

  76. Lady Thalia says:

    I tried to post this on her comments at her boundless blog, but it said it wouldn’t allow my data lol, whatever that means. So I’m posting it here:

    Dear Denise Morris Re: Out of Control post on your blog:

    I’m 45 now and after 5 kids and 2 husbands I can reflect. If you sit around waiting for God to bring you your dream man, you’ll wither into an old maid. Get out there and meet people, volunteer, join clubs you’re interested in, play a sport etc. There’s great men all around you, but the problem is they all don’t make you ‘tingle’ so you can’t see them. Take off your blinders and look for the qualities you really want in a life partner, and BE that partner that someone else would want. The only thing that keeps the ‘tingle’ in a LTR is CHARACTER. Not looks, not charisma, and most definitely not money. It’s too bad you wasted your best years career climbing, in the end it’s not the career that makes us happy, it’s the family. It’s late for you but not too late, stop whining, and lower your expectations back down to earth. Consider a divorced man who has a child; after all Focus on the Family seems to glorify single mothers, why not single dads? If you find one young enough and not beaten down enough by his ‘tingle’ chasing ex, you might get him to commit to family #2. Is it perfect or ideal? No, but neither is life, and you’ve played your hand this way, and ended up single and aging, we can only speculate on the great guys you turned away all thru your 20s….

  77. Pingback: Haley's Halo

  78. Pingback: Whatever else He has in store for you could be a lot of waiting. « Haley's Halo

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