Charts on delayed motherhood

As so often happens the discussion in the comments section to a recent post turned to the issue of delayed marriage & motherhood*.  In this specific case we were discussing how a woman’s circle of friends and acquaintances is impacted by her own decisions in life, and how this nonrandom group tends to provide an inaccurate sense of what is normal for women.  The basic phenomenon happens for all of us.  Our choices in life tend to have the effect of surrounding us with others who have made very similar choices.  This is only natural, but it can leave one with a skewed perception of the larger world.  An unmarried woman focused on her education or career in her mid 20s is very likely to be surrounded by women of the same demographic, and very much unaware of how many women of her cohort are already starting their own families.  The media can reinforce this sense by reporting statistics out of context on how many women are delaying marriage and childbirth.

Sometimes simple statistics can give us a very inaccurate impression of what is going on around us.  The most common statistics around motherhood are the mean or median age women are having their first child, as well as the percentage increase in the number of children born to older mothers.  As I’ve pointed out in the past, the breathless headlines about women having children ever later in life obscure the larger picture.  Births to women in their late 30s are up, but births to women 40 and over remain extremely rare:

What statistics often fail to tell us is how the shape of the curve changed.  The following charts are from the OECD publication SF2.3: Mean age of mothers at first childbirth (H/T Lavazza)**.  The OECD retains the copyright to the charts.  When we hear about the age of childbirth being delayed, I think it is normal to unconsciously presume that this involves a shift in the curve of childbirth and not a reshaping of the curve.  For some countries this is certainly true (live births per 1,000 women):

But for other countries the change is much more about a loss of births to women at a younger age with little or no increase in births to older women:

One thing which is common throughout all of the charts is that the most recent curve shows a peak in births no later than the early thirties (Ireland appears to be the max at 33).

The other problem with statistics on late life childbirth is it doesn’t tell us how many women waited too long and didn’t become mothers at all.  I found a Pew Research Center report titled Childlessness Up Among All Women; Down Among Women with Advanced Degrees with some data from the US Census on this.  One thing I found interesting is the definition of “childless”:

This report uses the standard measure of childlessness at the end of childbearing years, which is the share of women ages 40-44 who have not borne any children.

So much for 40 being the new 20!

Not surprisingly, the overall percent of women who are childless has increased over the last 30+ years:

Among all women ages 40-44, the proportion that has never given birth, 18% in 2008, has grown by 80% since 1976, when it was 10%.

But as I mentioned at the beginning of the post, the group one is part of can be very different than the average.  Here is what it looks like broken down by level of education (following charts were made by me using their analysis/presentation of US Census Data):

Interestingly women with masters degrees and higher seem to have made adjustments towards having children recently.   This makes me suspect that they learned from a percentage of their predecessors who inadvertently waited out the reproductive clock.

Even though out of wedlock births are much more common now than in the past, married women are still much more likely to have children than their unmarried counterparts, especially for women with some level of college or higher education:

The reluctance of college educated women in the US (and the UK) to have children out of wedlock could make for some interesting choices for the group of women currently in their 20s who are delaying marriage.  This puts additional pressure on their need to find a beta provider in their 30s.

They also broke this out by race and education.  Here is the breakdown for white women:

*I hesitated to do yet another post on this topic because discussions on this often turn personal.  However, the data was simply too tempting.  Please avoid bringing up another reader’s choices in the discussion on this unless they specifically bring them up first in response to this post.  Even in cases where the reader brings up their own choices first, please avoid making this personal as much as possible.

**  Update Aug 13 2013:  The updated version of SF2.3 is located here (the old link automatically redirects though), and the xls version of the publication is available here.

This entry was posted in Ageing Feminists, Data, Fertility, Motherhood. Bookmark the permalink.

138 Responses to Charts on delayed motherhood

  1. Chels says:

    You certainly have a point Dalrock, but you make it sound as the only reason for delayed marriage/motherhood is because women are busy with their careers. While that’s one part of the story, it certainly ignores the fact that most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.

  2. Ben says:

    I wonder why some countries have the curve mean shift forward while others just lose sections off the left side of the curve?

    Could it be wealth which allows for technology aided conception?
    Could it be that the people in those countries have fewer STDs/reproductive health problems?

    [D: Great question. I couldn’t find a pattern to explain it. Maybe someone here will find it.]

  3. a says:

    Chels says: “most men in their 20s also do not want to get married”

    Maybe women shouldn’t have fucked up the marriage laws.

  4. Chels says:

    Maybe women shouldn’t have fucked up the marriage laws.

    It has nothing to do with messed up marriage laws, but everything to do with delayed adulthood and focusing on one’s career until their 30s. The reasons for delayed fatherhood are similar to the ones for delayed motherhood.

  5. Opus says:

    I particularily like the first paragraph; we often judge the world by our own experiences and thus by our own circle of friends, friendly acquaintances, and by our observations at work. (My views are very jaundiced).

    May I make the following suggestion, which this article has caused me to reflect on: The increase in career women (delaying motherhood) combined with the greater likelihood that men (rather than women) are likely to become unemployed will accentuate the problem for career women seeking a husband as there will be a shortfall of ‘beta providers’, who in any event are less likely by reason of both their age and the age of the women to be as hormonally desirous of sex with these women and thus marriage to them (not so much ‘burning in the flesh’ as Paul said in Corinthians): In other words the greater the success that women have at work (encouraged by the government) the greater the likelihood of childless spinsterhoods. This will lead to a falling population (Italy) lower GNP and lower tax revenue (to be compensated for by immigrants – which may change the very culture and character of the country – an own goal caused by pandering to the female hypergamy of wanting to be like men).

    As you cannot beat biology, I wonder whether women were previously having children at a younger age by reason of societal pressure or whether they are now having children later by reason of the same pressure?

  6. Chels says:

    In this specific case we were discussing how a woman’s circle of friends and acquaintances is impacted by her own decisions in life

    I don’t think that’s true, it’s not that a woman chooses her friends based on similar choices, but rather that they were friends for a very long time. Speaking personally here, the majority of my girlfriends are from high school and university, and I suspect that’s the case for most women. Perhaps that changes when the woman gets in her 30s or 40s.

  7. Chels says:

    Also Dalrock, do you have any information on the methodologies they used? I ask because the average age at first child for Canada according to your source is around 27; whereas to Statistics Canada it’s around 30. Therefore, I’m highly skeptical of this source and perhaps that’s why you chose not to include Canada in your examples.

    [D: As I pointed out in the other comment thread I don’t see the discrepancy you are claiming. At most the two appeared to be off by 6 months, and the chart doesn’t really allow that level of precision. If you can point out the specific differences I would be willing to take another look though.]

  8. Chels says:

    I thought that we established that there was no marriage strike?

    There isn’t, which explains why the majority of men get married, and why the average age for first men for men is 30+.

    Isn’t EVERY blog in this ‘sphere talking about anti-male laws EVERY day?Every male commenter will concur with this, yet you, as usual, close your eyes and decide what you wish the world to be. Then you declare this as reality.

    It’s ridiculous to imply that men in their 20s don’t get married because of anti male laws, for several reasons 1) the manosphere is not representative of men in real life 2) most men get married.

  9. Brendan says:

    I don’t think that’s true, it’s not that a woman chooses her friends based on similar choices, but rather that they were friends for a very long time. Speaking personally here, the majority of my girlfriends are from high school and university, and I suspect that’s the case for most women. Perhaps that changes when the woman gets in her 30s or 40s.

    It generally does, but usually not until some life-changing event makes the older relationships less tenable. Sometimes that’s when one gets married earlier than the rest. Sometimes it’s geography (not sure about Canada where Toronto really is the main center, but in the US people are extremely mobile geographically right up until they marry and have kids and this impacts friend relationship formation and retention). My own experience with women I’ve known is that they may have 1-2 “older” friends from their teen or college years, but most of their friends are people who are similarly situated to them when they are in their 30s+, especially the married ones That’s essentially the big divide, as married and unmarried people, even moreso with kids, don’t generally socialize together very often — it happens, but generally the pattern is that married+kids socializes with married+kids and so on, due to similarity in lifestyles (or, rather, the relative lack of very discordant lifestyles). When you’re still under 30 and unmarried and most of your friends from younger years are the same and are local, that’s pretty different from what it is like for many people later.

  10. (r)Ev says:

    Chels,

    That’s why young, attractive, and intelligent women would do well to date men in their 30’s & 40’s–they’re the ones that are ready and capable of sustaining the kind of traditionalist relationships that allow young women to have children and stay at home to raise them. Professional child care is one of the poorest ways I can think of to raise children–it’s only marginally better than letting them raise themselves.

  11. Ceer says:

    @ Chels

    I’d call that hypergamy talking. As attractive as those alpha badboys are to women in their 20’s, women who prefer same-age pairings are going to find themselves with fewer options.

    There are several reasons why men in general don’t marry in their 20’s. Unfair divorce laws, lack of a stable employment, training in an unproductive field, lack of interest from the opposite sex…are just some of the reasons. If you see a man not wanting to mate properly, you can be assured that’s not natural behavior, which means it has drivers. By your mention of running away when children are mentioned, you seem to be making the assumption that it’s immaturity. You have to remember, men in this culture are taught to have close-in-age partners. That pegs the age of women as a significant factor too.

    I guess you could make a case that “men don’t want to get married in their 20’s” as is, but without any discussion of underlying causes, it wouldn’t be very useful except as blame game ammunition.

    My guess is that since betas historically have produced most of this society’s offspring, we’re seeing a hit taken by men in the form of less mastery of beta’s status triggers, combined with significant shunning by women. Neither of these is total, but it’s happening enough that good, intelligent men are starting to realize it’s simply not worth it. Based on the fact that the upper age groups necessarily lag behind the younger ones in terms of when results are seen, we’ll best see this effect 20 years from now.

  12. van Rooinek says:

    most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.

    Are you sure about that? When I was in my 20s, eager to marry and have a family, I could find no female takers. Where were all these lonely women?

  13. whiskey says:

    I would say it is just as much a baby strike, given the shortage of men women consider sexy. If women don’t find men to be suitable fathers for kids, they can control their fertility and avoid it. You could just as well in my view see the charts as a falling of male sexiness, from prior generations more sexy men, to today’s less sexy men. Sexiness itself being defined for men as being superior in status/power and thus desirability.

    Call it Don Draper Syndrome. Prior generations had more social distance between the sexes, and thus more men were sexier and thus higher birthrates, at younger ages. Sexy guys = kids! When contraception is cheap and easy anyway. Now, lots of beta males, women find them unworthy of fathering kids. Consider Mexican fertility in the US, compared to White women. Fertility in the same country is MUCH younger, and therefore you can conclude Mexican girls, often having kids in the mid/late teens, find their male counterparts sexy, the way say White women do not. This is true even given considerably more household net worth for Whites vs. Mexicans.

  14. Dalrock says:

    @Chels

    it certainly ignores the fact that most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.

    You are right that I’m making an assumption here, but I think it is a well founded one. We see the culture pushing young women to marry later, as I think you have described yourself. There are even popular books telling women not to marry until they are 30. We also see young women very eager to hear this message, as it is mostly selling what they want.

    I also base this on the relative power position in the SMP. Women in their 20s are in the power position in the SMP. If they want marriage, there won’t be an easier time in their lives to find a husband than in their 20s. Given the number of men we see marrying in their 30s still, one would have to assume the early 30s men were passing up marriage minded 20 something women for their older sisters. It doesn’t make any sense*. What I think is far more likely is a combination of factors:

    1) Women chasing the most attractive man they can get, and then finding out he isn’t interested in marriage. This is very different behavior than a woman does who is serious about getting married, but the complaint will still be that no men want to marry.

    2) Young men noticing intuitively that women their age and 5 years younger aren’t interested in getting married (since so few of their peers are getting married or even have serious girlfriends), and a group of them on the margins aren’t motivated to do the amount of work needed to signal that they would be a suitable provider. This is men reacting to the signals of women, but is easy enough to point to with cries of manchildren and where have all of the good men gone? (see Hymowitz). While this second reason isn’t a valid complaint for women in their 20s (since they are driving it), it very likely could become a reason for a husband shortage when the women decide they are ready to marry; you can’t easily turn all of the men who checked out a decade ago into providers.

    *By the same token I also don’t buy that women are the ones who are done with commitment when they are older and men are in the SMP power position. Those in the power position are the ones who set the terms of the deal, and the other sex has the choice of taking it or leaving it.

  15. Dalrock says:

    @Chels
    One more thought on women not marrying in their 20s. Susan Walsh wrote a post on women channeling the Sex and the City dating strategy a month or so back. I made the same point in the comments there that I made to you in the other post. Susan agreed, and pointed out another post she wrote on the dichotomy between strong bidders and weak bidders back in January.

  16. Chels says:

    @rEV

    It’s not reasonable to expect a woman in her 20s who wants to marry to do so with a guy 10+ years older than her, with whom she might not have anything in common, except that they both want to marry.

    @ Van

    You were looking for a Christian woman, that would eliminate a lot of womenthat weren’t religious, but would otherwise make good wives. And not to mention your requirement that she like hunting😉

  17. Chels says:

    @ Dalrock

    Most women don’t realize that their chances of getting married decreases with age, and they see men their own age rejecting marrying them for various reasons, which includes that the men in their 20s are not “ready” for marriage.

    These women are left with 2 choices: either marry someone older or stay single until a man her own age is ready for marriage.

    As well, I didn’t say that women are not to blame, all I said is that there’s a second aspect to this story, and that men in their 20s do not want to marry. This aspect is largely ignored on your blog and on others, which put the blame solely on women.

  18. Legion says:

    Chels says:
    October 7, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    ” While that’s one part of the story, it certainly ignores the fact that most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.”

    Why is your first instinct is to crap on men. Women a plenty are told to enjoy life while they are young or to develope their career. If a men does it, he is condemned because some princess didn’t get his resources when she wanted them. If they stay away from marriage the same as young women, assume they have the same same reasons before damning them.

    As has been discussed before, up to 80% of these men will have been igored by women so long while the women jump on the bad boys, that around ages 25 to 30, these other men don’t want used women.

    Try approaching life that others have real reasons for what they do and men aren’t required to perform as you or any women wants them to at any moment.

  19. Doug1 says:

    Chels–

    You certainly have a point Dalrock, but you make it sound as the only reason for delayed marriage/motherhood is because women are busy with their careers. While that’s one part of the story, it certainly ignores the fact that most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.

    There’s no law that prevents a woman in her mid twenties marrying a man in his thirties.

  20. Anon says:

    Dal I respect you as a writer but pulling pussy pass protection for your spinster reader cOhort is just sooooo beta nice guy! Lol!

    [D: After a while it just stops being sporting.🙂 ]

  21. Chels says:

    Why is your first instinct is to crap on men.

    Eh, I’m not, I’ve crapped and I’m crapping on women too, much more than I have on men.

    If they stay away from marriage the same as young women, assume they have the same same reasons before damning them.

    I already said that in a comment above, that the reasons for women delaying men are similar to the reasons for men delaying men.

    Try approaching life that others have real reasons for what they do and men aren’t required to perform as you or any women wants them to at any moment.

    Yes, I understand that people are motivated by various reasons, and men aren’t required to perform how women want. However, if relations between the genders are to work/improve, each must accept the duties that the other places on them.

  22. Chels says:

    So I totally meant to say this in my comment above:

    I already said that in a comment above, that the reasons for women delaying marriage are similar to the reasons for men delaying marriage.

  23. Lavazza says:

    Women in their twenties find few men in their twenties who they find attractive. Since these men know many women find them attractive and that other men their age are not considered attractive they are not in a hurry to get married. Chicken or egg?

    The hafl plus 7 rule seems to be right. The only men I know who are getting married in their late thirties or early forties are getting married to much younger women (10-20 years). If the women are their age they prefer to have them as girl friends. But there are exceptions. A friend separated from his much younger wife and has now a child with a woman only a few years younger. His wife now has a child with another man (her age), so on paper he is father to two children.

  24. Orig Anon says:

    Chels

    Men’s peak smv is years later than women. With same age marriages, women are getting better men than they deserve in the long run if they marry in their early 20’s to a then equal smv man. Or they “marry down” hoping/based on the man’s potential. Wanting equal smv/ equal age men is feminist wanting the man to make a bad deal; which many men are ignorant enough to do.

    There are just not enough women willing to marry down or attractive men willing to not wait for a better deal.

  25. dhurka says:

    Chels
    “It has nothing to do with messed up marriage laws, but everything to do with delayed adulthood and focusing on one’s career until their 30s. The reasons for delayed fatherhood are similar to the ones for delayed motherhood.”

    Every man I know in his 20s with the income/assets suitable to enter marriage is terrified of serious relationships with women. The two who are marrying are with russian or south american women. I can be pretty outspoken at times however I have never ever had a younger man defend women when I say, to be honest, sometimes outlandish and insulting things about women stealing from men. Older men will still white knight. I had thought that the most sensible, rational and serious men were avoiding marriage despite the fact that traditionally these were the men most interested.

    Thanks for clearing that up. I don’t know where us stupid men get the idea that women stealing all our stuff matters. Obviously its just that for some reason we are all man children and the divorce laws have no effect at all.

  26. Chels says:

    @ dhurka

    Like I said a bajillion times before, men should think with ther heads when choosing whether or not to marry a woman and should be careful with marriage. Dalrock even has a post about this (interview questions….)

    However, there’s a long way to go before being wary and choosing to be single for the rest of one’s life. Most men do eventually marry, and there isn’t a marriage strike (yet, perhaps in my children’s generation, which saddens me terribly).

  27. greyghost says:

    This is all very interesting and accasionally i spend time around young men. To a man I let them know how stupid it is to get married. As it stands now the main reason I think for later child birth is due to choices women make. Most of my comments and points of view are to teach men the value of a women’s choice to have a child needs to be in the hands of the man she is with. Childless spinsterhood has to be involutary if any change in western society is going to accure.
    The comments posted by chels would be very different if she believed her ability to have a child was based on the man allowing it no matter how much sex she offered and gave. This is the harsh reality of a life undre laws of misandry.
    Everything from “game’ picking the “right” woman that is deserving of comitment etc.etc. is there as a work around for the laws of misandry.

  28. Chels says:

    The comments posted by chels would be very different if she believed her ability to have a child was based on the man allowing it no matter how much sex she offered and gave. This is the harsh reality of a life undre laws of misandry.

    But it is in his hands, as well as in mine. Unless she does an “oopsy”, both men and women choose when to have kids.

  29. greyghost says:

    Getting back on topic Dalrock, the charts of the various contries I am asking is the number on the left side the number of children per female of the total population.

    [D: Per 1,000 women of each age bracket.]

  30. Lily says:

    It may be that women in their early to mid 20s are deliberately delaying marriage now (but I don’t get the impression that there are exactly lots of young men wanting to get married) but it certainly wasn’t the case when I was that age, ten years ago.

    I can categorically say that there were very few young men in my social circle who got married under the age of 25 or would have wanted to. That was the last thing they wanted to do. They wanted to start earning proper money, get their own place, have some independence and fun.

    Most of them had at least one multi year relationship in their early to mid 20s which could turn into marriage and several of them did a few years later but a fair few split up, mainly initiated by the man (usually after the girl said she wanted to get married), because he wasn’t ready and wanted to ‘sow his oats’ or ‘have fun’. Admittedly again we’re restricted by personal social circles but I know a fairly wide range of people and this is spread across alphas, betas and deltas. I have to be honest and say I don’t know many omegas or other letters from Vox’s I can’t think of right now.

    Also, my ex was 10 years older than me and there is a pattern in that generation too.

    There is a contrast to people in the 45-60 bracket. In the UK to me that seems the last generation where it’s common to see at university coupling marriages.

  31. Lavazza says:

    “(live births per 1,000 women)”

    Natitivity has gone down a lot in countries where the state is not paying women to have babies (paid maternal leave, tax breaks, subsidized childcare etc.) and/or with high immigration.

  32. Lily says:

    I doubt many young men I knew (and I still do for the most part) were thinking of anti male laws or divorce etc. For the most part they didn’t have much money to be worried about losing and the women in their peer group were earning similar money. I’m not buying that as an excuse.

    If the USA is going the way of the UK, they don’t want to get married, and the young women are going down that way most likely for the same reasons.

  33. Lavazza says:

    Lilz: When I was at uni in Sweden in the late eighties everybody wanted to get a steady partner before leaving, since we knew we often would have to move to smaller cities all over the country to get our foot into the professional world before we got work experience enough to be able to choose ourselves. Almost everybody succeeded in that with women close to our age (2-4 years younger), had a long distance relationship for a few years and then married in our late twenties or early thirties and had kids shortly thereafter. About a 20-25 % of us are divorced now in our forties.

  34. Lily says:

    “I also base this on the relative power position in the SMP. Women in their 20s are in the power position in the SMP. If they want marriage, there won’t be an easier time in their lives to find a husband than in their 20s.”
    You are right assuming not many other variables.

    “Given the number of men we see marrying in their 30s still, one would have to assume the early 30s men were passing up marriage minded 20 something women for their older sisters.It doesn’t make any sense*”
    I am curious on this. Are there any stats showing a big trend in this number of 30 something men marrying women in their 20s? The ones I’ve seen from the USA show both ages going up but I’m not seeing the age difference getting bigger? At first glance seems has got smaller in recent years.
    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

  35. dhurka says:

    @ chels

    You may be right that all we see now is that men are wary, not rejecting marriage outright. However each generation of boys has it worse growing up and a higher percentage of them see their fathers, uncles etc used and abused. A higher percentage have grown up in single mother households. One of these generations (maybe the ones currently in their twenties or teens) are going to have an actual marriage strike.

    By the time it happens it will be too late to do anything about it. It will have taken 50+ years to convince young men that women really hate them. Once it happens it will take multiple generations to reverse.

    Its like women a whacking a good natured dog with a stick. Women like you are watching it, not doing the whacking. But you spend your time pointing out that dogs don’t mind being hit because they aren’t reacting savagely. By the time the dog turns savage there is no turning back and all around that dog are f’d.

  36. Lavazza says:

    And everyone who is divorced has 50-50 custody of the children.

  37. Lily says:

    Lavazza, I can see that, I know Sweden a bit. I think the UK is a bit different because it’s so small. People who live in rural areas like to pretend they live miles from anywhere and only have tractors for traffic but it’s an exaggeration, you’re never really that far away from anywhere. Besides there’s always the village pub!

    Also mostly people who go to university and have to do any professional training afterwards tend to go to big towns. Nobody’s trying to lock down someone to marry at university.

  38. Lily says:

    Lavazza “And everyone who is divorced has 50-50 custody of the children.”
    It’s those evil feminists.

  39. Chels says:

    One of these generations (maybe the ones currently in their twenties or teens) are going to have an actual marriage strike.

    I’m in my 20s, and I can assure you there isn’t a marriage strike. Perhaps that will change when my kids grow up.

    It will have taken 50+ years to convince young men that women really hate them.

    The majority of women do NOT hate you, they do NOT hate men. Personally, I think men are pretty great and it really hurts me that some women behave in such an awful manner towards guys. I totally subscribe to this post by another woman:

    http://equalbutdifferent.blogspot.com/2007/08/men-are-great_21.html

    Its like women a whacking a good natured dog with a stick. Women like you are watching it, not doing the whacking. But you spend your time pointing out that dogs don’t mind being hit because they aren’t reacting savagely. By the time the dog turns savage there is no turning back and all around that dog are f’d.

    I’m definitely not watching it, and I speak against women who bash men all the time. I definitely don’t say to them that it’s men’s fault because that would just grow their entitlement complex, and I’m quick to point out their flaws.

  40. Lavazza says:

    Lily: Yeah, I guess thats special for Sweden. There were not that many first jobs in the big cities. Law graduates often had to go small cities to work as trainee judges, which was a stepping stone to law firms or the judiciary. Doctors also had to do their training in small cities. And a lot of government agencies are dispersed all over the country to appease the regions.

  41. Lavazza says:

    “Lavazza “And everyone who is divorced has 50-50 custody of the children.”
    It’s those evil feminists.”

    For the divorced population as a whole, mothers get preferential treatment. I am talking about the upper middle class that mostly has “amical” divorces and that can support the extra expenses of divorced life.

  42. dhurka says:

    @ chels

    If you are being honest about standing up for men then thank you. If we only had a few million of you it might make a difference. However never, ever in my life have I ever heard of a woman standing up for men against a woman. I’m sure it has happened however it is just theory to me. What is not theory but daily reality is that women bash men all the time and other women either agree or give consent by silence.

    Which is where your comment about the majority of women not hating men sounds hollow and false to me. If the majority of women in fact do not hate men, then wouldn’t I have, at least once, heard a woman standing up for a man? These two facts do not compute so I will go with the one that reflects my daily reality.

    And sorry to say but the majority of men my age and younger seem to agree with me about the majority of women hating and using men. Why that hasn’t resulted in a marriage strike is that many believe that their princess is different.

  43. Lily says:

    I was just having a look at the UK stats as excluded here there was a bit of hu ha in the papers a while back about women over 40s birth rates increasing.

    However, looking at stats it may have increased over what it was in 20 or 30 years ago but it’s only got to the same level as it was in the first half of the 20th century (and it was fair bit higher in the postwar baby boom). And that’s live births so without taking into account advances in medicine.

    Excel downloadable here
    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-225702
    (I’m looking at Table 2a)

    [D: Thanks for the data link! It looks like a slightly higher percentage of babies born in the UK are to mothers over 40 compared with the US, but still not very much. Here are the percents for 2010:
    Under 20: 5.61%
    20-24: 18.99%
    25-29: 27.55%
    30-34: 28.00%%
    35-39: 16.02%
    40 and over: 3.83% ]

  44. Chels says:

    @ dhurka

    A lot of women are standing up for men in their heads, but find it too hard to actually say something because they’re fearful that they’re going to be attacked. I assure you that none of my friends hates men, and I have quite a few.

    As well, I didn’t have any man tell me that they think women hate them, perhaps it’s because I’m a woman and they were diplomatic. However, I’ve heard them complaining about the quality of women.

  45. Lily says:

    Stats I just linked to aren’t like for like as it’s all births not first births. I just thought they may be interesting to others. For all the talk of increases in births in over 40s, numbers aren’t higher than they used to be and we have better medical care now so they are effectively less. I also found some of the other numbers interesting.

    I’m puzzling over OECD’s Italy chart. I thought it had the highest number of over 40s births in Europe (followed by the UK). But it also has the second lowest birth rate (after Spain) so I’d have expected the chart to be different. Ah, I just thought what it could be, there’s quite a difference between north and south so perhaps the highest no of 40s births comes from 2nd births from the women in the south and therefore not reflected in this chart.

    [D: The OECD charts are all births, so they are comparable to the data you shared.]

  46. greyghost says:

    @Chels
    So it is a decision you make together huh? Well if she decides on her own to have one of the “oopsy” babies there is absolutely nothing the man can legally do about. (this is where the laws of misandry come in) His only option is to if given a tell, is to behave like an immature manchild and run away.(oh that would explains everything if it wasn’t for this hamster) I know I can never change you point of view on this but I’m speaking to any young menthat are checking this out now. I going to talk mens reality now some you don’t seem to concerned as shown in your comments ( it certainly ignores the fact that most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.)
    So as a man speaking to a young man that just knocked up Chels I have this to say to him. “so you love her and really want to have this baby huh? You plan on stepping up and dong the right thing huh? Well you can love that baby as long as she says so and there is nothing you can do about it.(laws of misandry again) And you are going to pay and behave or they (laws of misandry) will torment you to the grave. That is the way it is period. There is also not one person that can argue it is not so. This is mens reality. every man over 12 knows or has a feeling about the gun of misandry pointed at his head until the day he dies. The whole mens blog is about coping with this gun. From “game” picking the right girl, etc.etc. Some guys pretend it doesn’t point at them because they have supplicated.(maginas and male feminist) Some men think because they are holding a gun they don’t have one pointed at them (whiteknights) Most swallow hard on the bluepill thinking they are immune and protected. Only to be traumatised in divorce,false rape claim,DV, loss of children,cuckoldery etc etc.
    Every man in western society has no real rights to his life or respect of his needs as a human being. As more men learn this maybe my son and any body elses son can grow up with out a gun to his head.
    I hope that explains why this comment was posted (one more time) “it certainly ignores the fact that most men in their 20s also do not want to get married, and run away even when one mentions having a baby.”

  47. Legion says:

    Chels says:
    October 7, 2011 at 5:28 pm
    “Why is your first instinct is to crap on men.”

    Your first comment did not have all the reasoning you added later. Please face the fact that you have a bad first reaction to men’s actions that don’t follow your reequirements for them.

    I will then have nothing ‘to lite off on’.

  48. Chels says:

    @ Greyghost

    I know that laws are messed up, and I think that just like a woman can decide to have an abortion without the man’s permission, a man should be allowed to have a “paper” abortion.

    @ Legion

    I’m not going to admit to what’s not true, my first instinct is not to blame men.

  49. dhurka says:

    @chels

    “A lot of women are standing up for men in their heads”

    LOL it is very humorous and charming that you think this counts. Honestly I laughed and smiled when I read that. In my head, I’m a superstar NFL quarterback who spends his off season doing scientific research in the international space station. So in fantasy land I’m a millionaire athlete/astronaught and women aren’t man haters.

    However in real life, I’m not a millionaire athlete/astronaught. And the fact that women would rather remain silent than stand up for men shows that, when push comes to shove, womens real loyalty is to team man hater. They would rather a man get trashed and hated than disappoint team woman. Maybe only through intimidation I don’t know. However their actions show that they are not on mens side. At best they are neutral. At worst they man haters who will lie when socially appropriate. They are certainly not on my side.

  50. greenlander says:

    I always wondered why Chels always shows up on this blog with a bunch of non-sequitur arguments. It’s a constant: sort of like the way it always rains in Seatlle.

    So, I decided to do some research. And here’s what I found: Chels is actually the name of the ancient Norse god of hamsters.

    After that, everything in my mind fell into place.

  51. Kathy says:

    Chels and Lily you are both spot on in your observations. Men in their twenties do not want to marry. They have been told to live it up before settling down. Most do want to settle and have a family eventually but believe that time is on their side… Maybe.. There are some who are deluded into thinking that they can snare a woman 10-20 years younger than themselves.

    The fact is women are not the least interested in marrying a man with a big difference in age And I have spoken to many over the years. Of all the women I know only two have married a man ten years older. The biggest gap usually being 6 years.

    A woman I worked with some years ago is in the process of separating from her husband of some twenty five years. She is 58 he is 70. The reason.. No sex. He is no longer interested and they are drifting apart. She is in very good shape and rekindled a(teenage) romance with a man who is 60 . She told me that she feels like a young girl again.. The other woman 55 is married to a 74 year old who is a homebody. She has been conducting an affair for the past five years.

    Marriages with big age gaps just do not augur well for long term outcomes. There is more than just the sex issue there. Different interests.. for example in tastes in music.. The younger partner wants to go out the older one content to stay at home ( women pursuing a walking wallet are the exception)

    Finally.. There is NO marriage strike. There is no misandry bubble waiting to burst. Not in real life anyway.
    On the interwebz it’s a whole different story.. A world of fantasy.

    Sad really.

    Where I come from women love and respect their men. And that’s a fact. Real and tangible..

  52. Chels says:

    @greenlader & @ TFH

    Last time I checked this blog didn’t belong to any of you. Therefore, I have just as much right to be here as you do and it seems to me like you’re trying to transform this into another Spearhead or another MGTOW forum. I like this blog because it’s moderate, and there are other people here who are not set on thinking that all women are man haters, who see beyond that, who see that women’s behavior has been screwed by feminism and there are people interested in having a balanced debate.

    And tough luck to both of you, because as long as the owner of this blog doesn’t ban me, then I don’t see what your problem is. I tried to ignore both of you as long as I could, but I see that you’re set on pushing away any woman that shows up and happens to disagree. What’s the problem with having a debate? Besides saying something as ridiculous as “women have the rationality capacity of a 7-10 boy” or that the women are here because they get “gina” tingles”, do you have anything better you have to say? Does it actually make you feel better to think that women are “quivering in orgasm from the shining light of logic that was shone on her”? LOL

    Hey, I guess thinking you’re actually capable of turning on a woman on some random blog makes up for not being to do so in real life. I know that you’re going to say that this is shaming language, but it ought to make you think about your behavior.

    And with that, I’m done debating/arguing/wasting my time with both of you.

  53. Höllenhund says:

    “A lot of women are standing up for men in their heads”

    That has to be the lamest, most unimpressive statement I’ve read on the Internet in the past 5 or 6 months (which is saying something).

  54. Höllenhund says:

    “And with that, I’m done debating/arguing/wasting my time with both of you.”

    But only after you had the last word, right? Typical woman.

  55. Höllenhund says:

    “I know that you’re going to say that this is shaming language, but it ought to make you think about your behavior.”

    No, it should not make anyone do anything. It’s shaming language, period. No ifs or buts.

  56. Chels says:

    “I know that you’re going to say that this is shaming language, but it ought to make you think about your behavior.”

    No, it should not make anyone do anything. It’s shaming language, period. No ifs or buts.

    Funny how it’s completely acceptable when a man does it (aka accusing a woman of “gina tingles” when she disagrees) *rolls eyes*

  57. Em says:

    “Interestingly women with masters degrees and higher seem to have made adjustments towards having children recently. This makes me suspect that they learned from a percentage of their predecessors who inadvertently waited out the reproductive clock.”

    As one of these women, I’d offer another reason (though the one you cite might have something to do with the motivations of other women, I won’t try to speak for them): when my committee chair was in school, the fact that she had children was taboo – no one would hire her unless she sneakily hid that she had children, the men in her department got family benefits but she wasn’t eligible, she had to nurse one of her sons in a women’s restroom because there was no other private place, etc etc. 30 years later I come along and want to get a PhD and also have children, and there are family-friendly policies in place, I’m not the only woman in the department with children (even multiples, not just one!), there’s a faculty lounge in the building where I can nurse a baby, etc etc etc. 30 years ago, having kids made getting ahead in academia very difficult. Now it’s still a challenge (because of time, balancing, etc) but not so much because other women have done it already and people have gotten used to it.

    [D: Makes sense. Thanks for the insight, and welcome to the blog.]

  58. deti says:

    @ Ben “I wonder why some countries have the curve mean shift forward while others just lose sections off the left side of the curve?

    “Could it be wealth which allows for technology aided conception?
    “Could it be that the people in those countries have fewer STDs/reproductive health problems?”

    Dalrock: [D: Great question. I couldn’t find a pattern to explain it. Maybe someone here will find it.]”

    deti: I didn’t find anything or research it. But I’d venture the following hypothesis: Note the nations with the mean age shifting upward (Germany, Denmark, France) vis a vis the nations with reductions in births to all women (Italy, Greece, Iceland, Hungary). Perhaps the issue is cultural and economic. The first group of nations with the upward shift in mean age has constitutional democratic forms of government and (sort of) free market economies albeit with a large amount of social controls and high taxation; but also with “progressive” social reforms and culture (i.e. feminism). Note also that these nations have economies and governmental structures more or less resembling the United States, where there is also the upward shift in first time motherhood age.

    The second group with perhaps the exception of Italy come from cultures of either heavy socialism or communism. Certainly we know the abortion rate in the former USSR was quite high; query whether that can be extrapolated to Hungary, a former Soviet bloc nation. Socialism and communism place heavy emphasis on feminism, women in the workplace and “equal rights”, all of which could lead to increasing numbers of women in those countries simply eschewing motherhood altogether.

  59. Italy, Greece? Someone check the delayed marriage thing on Spain and Portugal, too. Let’s not forget that Iceland damned near went out of business.

    Perhaps the demographic shifts in the Eurozone are strongly connected to the Eurozone debt crisis?

    Someone should also check the marriage age and childbirth age stats on Brazil, China, India, and Russia (the BRIC countries). These are the countries, Brazil in particular, that actually floated the idea of financially helping the Eurozone.

    Also, what about childbearing age stats when the US was doing well financially and when it was doing poorly?

    Someone once said that a society’s demography is its destiny.

  60. Doug1 says:

    Lily–

    I doubt many young men I knew (and I still do for the most part) were thinking of anti male laws or divorce etc. For the most part they didn’t have much money to be worried about losing and the women in their peer group were earning similar money. I’m not buying that as an excuse.

    For the average joe, or young guys who might earn a lot in the future, the killer in the states is child support=also stealth alimony. I once tried to figure out how the UK compares on that, and near as I could figure, beyond well below median incomes, it’s about half to 2/3 of the US rate in the UK, after taxes. I believe the US now (since the early nineties under federal mandate with some, not a lot, of wiggle room for individual states) has the highest after tax percentage child support=also stealth alimony rates in the world.

    As well in US divorces lots of smaller rules really screw guys over. If he’s earning a lot more that his wife, he has to pay her legal fees, plus support even if she’s childless pending the divorce. What do you suppose that does to a wife’s willingness to settle on reasonable terms that won’t exceed what a court would allow, or her willness to let it go to trial, what with her lawyer’s coaching, not at all in his/her own self interest in prolonging things of course????

    If there are kids she tends to get the house rather than it’s equity really being fairly split. The furniture and appliances she tends to get almost for free. And so on.

    No most American 20 something guys don’t fully or really know this stuff but they sort of do. The meme that men really get screwed over in divorce is out there in a general, non detail sort of way, at least in part. Guys know about older brothers or cousins getting screwed over, or dads of their friends, or their own dad. Of course this is all almost completely covered up in our enormously mendatious entertainment and new media, and our school propaganda factories.

  61. Anonymous Reader says:

    The curves for Italy and Greece are not a result of economic crisis, they are in fact the driver of the economic crisis. Birth rates such as 1.25 / child / woman /lifetime are a recipe for serious population decline, and a nation with its working-age population in decline cannot expect to repay debt. The Italian curve is astounding in a way, because Italy traditionally was a very family and child oriented culture. Clearly that has changed in the last generation. By the way, demographics like this also are not going to be good for the social welfare states of Europe – those are all predicated on a growing, productive population.

    I doubt that it is driven by STD or other disease. Cultural shift seems more likely to be the cause. Possibly something as simple as having to choose between material goods and children, due to the high rates of taxation and unemployment that go with the social welfare states?

    I’ll agree with Em that higher ed and some larger industries have become more friendly to women with children, however the expectations on men are pretty much the same. Unwritten, of course. But enforced nevertheless.

  62. Lavazza says:

    I still stand by this:

    “Natitivity has gone down a lot in countries where the state is not paying women to have babies (paid maternal leave, tax breaks, subsidized childcare etc.) and/or with high immigration.”

    At least it is true for Sweden that is proud of being one of the few European countries with close to reproduction nativity. Government money has been thrown at women to have babies: Paid parental leave for 15 months or so (around 80 % of income). Heavily subsidized child care (parents pay about 10-20 % of the cost). A lot of government jobs for women.

    The French state is also generous to parents. Britain is mainly paying the underclass to reproduce, if I have understood correctly. Germany has generous tax breaks for SAHMs, if I have understood correctly, but to little avail. German men seem to be on a marriage and child production strike (Zeugungsstreik).

  63. greyghost says:

    Where I come from women love and respect their men. And that’s a fact. Real and tangible..

    Talk about fantasy land Ha ha ha ha We’re off to see the wizard,the wonderful wizard of Oz. There is no way in hell any woman in western society can give a damn about any man much less a man she had hostages with (kids) and that is a fact

  64. Kathy says:

    As I said there is no misandry bubble waiting to burst. No evidence whatsoever. Misandry of course exists, however it is spurious to conflate the two. To the few men with whom I have discussed such stuff here in Oz, (including my own husband) well they have been quite derisory and disbelieving of this supposed intense hatred of men that women have.

    Suffice to say I no longer mention it in conversation. It is for the interwebz where unfortunately we hear mostly from the disgruntled not the happy. That’s (unreal) life on the web. Everything is magnified. Blown out of proportion.

    Talk is cheap in any case. I have been married to a wonderful man for fifteen years, he is my world I serve no other. That’s real life. My family and friends all in happy marriages. That’s real life.

    I come here to read Dalrock’s interesting articles, and shoot the breeze. I have of course become street wise over the years, thanks to my husband who told me that anything I read here(from commenters) or on most other blogs should be taken with a grain of salt because it is not neccesarily a true reflection of how it is in “real life” .

    And you know what?

    He’s right!

    Smart man my hubby😉

  65. dragnet says:

    I think the full ramifications of womens’ herd mentality is often overlooked in the manosphere. In my view, most women aren’t really “misandrists” or “feminists” in the worst sense of those words. But they sit by and let manginas and man-haters get away with abuse because women are, at the core, followers. They tend to line up behind whoever appears to be winning at the moment. This isn’t a moral judgement on the fairer sex, but a recognition of their evolutionary reality. The world was always a bigger, scarier place for women than for men—they evolved to love the alpha, to worship power precisely because they are weaker than us.

    As the state slowly is slowly bled dry of treasure by its corrupt and decadent elite many of the worst—and not coincidentally most costly—abuses of feminism will also wither away. At that point you may just start to see some women become more vocal about opposing misandry or taking on the most vocal institutional feminists instead of just fighting back “in their heads”. As tempting as it will be to mock these women, I would urge the manosphere to resist calling them out on their erstwhile silence and tacit approval of institutional feminism.

    Because they were never really the problem. After all, if wiser men hadn’t allowed manginas and feminists to take over, then the vast majority of women would never have pledged allegiance in the face of their apparent victory.

  66. anonymouse-1 says:

    This is a story from Australia…I wonder if it is an isolated case or are most women over there are as mercenary as their sisters in North America?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046802/Mother-forced-pay-child-support-father-discovers-able-conceive.html

  67. Chels says:

    Anonymouse, that child is the result of a one night stand between the man and the woman, and it’s not like she deliberately got pregnant to trap that man into financing her lifestyle. Nevertheless, the man shouldn’t have been forced to pay her at all, even if it was 3,730 over 9 years, which comes to about 35$/month. If anything, that’s proof that not all women are mercenary and despite the “wise” advice coming from certain members of the manosphere, most women do not, in fact, hate men.

  68. Doug1 says:

    Chels–

    most women do not, in fact, hate men.

    True, but in American feminist culture women tend to blame men for things which are mostly or entirely their own fault – because they’re encouraged to do so by constant examples in our culture. Most women have very little sensitivity towards the way white men in particular are constantly put down in commercials and sitcoms in a supposed humorous way most often. Most women don’t think there’s anything disturbing that public school has become so heavily biased towards seeing girls do comparatively well visa vis boys and that their needs are catered to far more than those of boys. Most American women aren’t disturbed by the fact that girls now graduate 4 year colleges at almost a 50% greater rate.

    Most American women think it’s fine that there’s affirmative action for girls and that Title IX is in the way the Dept of Education implements it is incredibly unfair to guys non money making sports teams, since far more guys want far more to play in college athletics than girls really do. For girls it’s often mostly a scholarship thing and getting into the college they want thing.

    Most American women are fine with unfair laws in lots of areas like family law, and the fine print of VAWA, where guys are guilty until proven innocent and about always get a restraining order that will force him to move out of his own house for at least three months until the case is dismissed if she decides after she’s sobered up and calmed down she doesn’t want to testify re: his no injury return slapping her after she slapped him several times and punched him in the belly. Under VAWA DA’s are indoctronate to wait a long time before dropping cases even when the next day she wants them to. Because supposedly women are frightened and brainwashed by their “abusers”. We’re talking absolutely no injury here which is the case in the majority of VAWA cases. There’s also tons of lying too about him making her afraid, etc. But how many American women bother to learn about these things.

    Women doen’t seem to care that wives often get off for killing their husbands when they make unsubstantiated claims of abuse, but men about never get off for killing their wives. Most don’t seem to care that women endlessly receive much lighter sentences for the same crime with the same lack of a criminal record.

    I could go on and on.

  69. Ya Boy Dave says:

    TFH your insight is truly appreciated what other sites do you comment at and do you write your own blog?

  70. Johnycomelately says:

    “Natitivity has gone down a lot in countries where the state is not paying women to have babies (paid maternal leave, tax breaks, subsidized childcare etc.) and/or with high immigration.”

    Should read, nativity has gone down in countries where socialist feminist policies has bankrupt the state.

    According to the CIA World fact handbook, all the Warsaw countries, ex Yugoslav republics, Cuba and ex Soviet Republics (excepting the Islamic states) are in the bottom 10% ranked nations according to fertility.

    An interesting side note, advanced nations that provide universal health care also seem to have the lowest birth rates, particularly if you exclude births from first generation immigrants.
    Germany, Italy, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Greece, Singapore etc are all bottom ranking nations according to fertility that provide universal health care.

  71. Chels says:

    Doug1

    I think you’re mistaken in thinking that the average woman isn’t bothered by those same things that you mentioned. Unfortunately, those women are not the loudest, and are not the ones who have the power to change these things. It is feminists who do all these things, thinking that they represent most women, but they don’t.

    Feminism is so ingrained in society that the average woman can’t really do anything to demolish institutional discrimination against men. However, this does not mean that she agrees with or supports these policies.

    As well, I completely understand your point about White men being bashed, that’s a consequence of multiculturalist policies, in addition to feminism and to the desire of some people to destroy “Whiteness”. Here’s a good article that talks about that:

    http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2011/10/doesnt-whiteness-studies-contravene.html

  72. RL says:

    First they came for people satisfying reason 1 Doug1 mentioned, and chels didn’t speak out because it doesn’t apply to her but stand up for those people in her heads.

    Then they came for people satisfying reason 2 Doug1 mentioned, and chels didn’t speak out because it doesn’t apply to her but stand up for those people in her heads..

    ….

    Then in harsh economic times of little government support and whiteknighting they came for women and there was no one left to speak out for them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6

  73. Alat says:

    Kathy says: The fact is women are not the least interested in marrying a man with a big difference in age. And I have spoken to many over the years.

    Oh, the good ol’ method of trying to discover what women want in men by asking them. I suppose they also said they wanted a nice guy who treated them well…

  74. greyghost says:

    TFH Australia is gone as a country and society. To have a woman in australia say this syas it all. “my husband who told me that anything I read here(from commenters) or on most other blogs should be taken with a grain of salt because it is not neccesarily a true reflection of how it is in “real life” . This stuff is coming from a man married to a woman that can read what is written about here and blows it off. This loving couple lives in a country that has a government that can and will retroactively charge and prosecutes a man for a marital rape 50 years ago.. What in the hell else is a man going to tell his wife that lives in that hell hole. Of course there is no misandry bubble not in Oz with those wimped out supplicating men you have there. I have absolutely no respect for an austalian man they deserve every thing they get.

  75. krakonos says:

    “What statistics often fail to tell us is …”
    composition of newborns by ethnicity or religion. This factor is consciously omitted.
    When it comes to France, it is not a secret, there is a strong Muslim minority with different birth rates and patters. You can just guess how charts looks for ethnic French. Just look at bigger cites like Paris, Marseilles, Grenoble – young Arab populations and multiple no-go zones. Dangerous even in daylight.
    When it comes to Denmark. Well, I do not know full statistics, but when it comes to Copenhagen, the only people filling the definition of family (man, woman and multiple kids) are Muslims. The impression is that Danish parents are usually single mothers with one kid (who knows who the father is).
    Yes, Eastern Europe is homogeneous… But, wait, gipsies. So, the same problem even in Hungary. And it is not only Hungary. Bulgaria with recent unrests due to a gipsy king car-killing a boy, Romania with gipsy gangs wandering over EU, Slovakia exporting gipsies to the Czech republic, etc. Recently my brother joked, if it were not for gipsies they could have closed maternity hospital.

    @ TFH
    “A woman using ‘Sex and the City’ as a template for her life is about as immature as a man using James Bond or The A-Team as a template for his life.”
    Who the hell are you to attack The A-Team?!?😉
    @ TFH + Chels + Dhurka
    In fact, there is no marriage strike by men, but Dalrock is also wrong. There is a polygyny strike. Oh sorry, serial monogamy strike. Older divorced men marrying young women. So, this is the reason, so many young men are not married – and will never marry (you cannot have kids by marrying 40s post-menopausal woman with her own kids).

    @ Deti
    “The second group with perhaps the exception of Italy come from cultures of either heavy socialism or communism. Certainly we know the abortion rate in the former USSR was quite high; query whether that can be extrapolated to Hungary, a former Soviet bloc nation. Socialism and communism place heavy emphasis on feminism, women in the workplace and “equal rights”, all of which could lead to increasing numbers of women in those countries simply eschewing motherhood altogether.”
    And I was always wondering why we had first marriage at a very young age (almost anyone married), above replacement fertility and below 10% out of wedlock birds till the end of communism (generally, when a woman wanted abortion she had to explain reasons to an “abortion commission” – so, real “encouragement” to abort). Now, we have below replacement fertility, 45% out of wedlock, sinking marriage-ship. But now, bunch of gender studies graduates regularly drivel on TV. Our former female minister of (in)justice writes erotic stories where is is being raped. When she was acting as minister, during investigation of one case she said “He might be innocent… But as a mother (of a daughter) I would execute him immediately”. You know, presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of the western law.

  76. krakonos says:

    Oops, I my comment is lost for some reason, so again:

    “What statistics often fail to tell us is …”
    composition of newborns by ethnicity or religion. This factor is consciously omitted.
    When it comes to France, it is not a secret, there is a strong Muslim minority with different birth rates and patters. You can just guess how charts looks for ethnic French. Just look at bigger cites like Paris, Marseilles, Grenoble – young Arab populations and multiple no-go zones. Dangerous even in daylight.
    When it comes to Denmark. Well, I do not know full statistics, but when it comes to Copenhagen, the only people filling the definition of family (man, woman and multiple kids) are Muslims. The impression is that Danish parents are usually single mothers with one kid (who knows who the father is).
    Yes, Eastern Europe is homogeneous… But, wait, gipsies. So, the same problem even in Hungary. And it is not only Hungary. Bulgaria with recent unrests due to a gipsy king car-killing a boy, Romania with gipsy gangs wandering over EU, Slovakia exporting gipsies to the Czech republic, etc. Recently my brother joked, if it were not for gipsies they could have closed maternity hospital.

    @ TFH
    “A woman using ‘Sex and the City’ as a template for her life is about as immature as a man using James Bond or The A-Team as a template for his life.”
    Who the hell are you to attack The A-Team?!?😉
    @ TFH + Chels + Dhurka
    In fact, there is no marriage strike by men, but Dalrock is also wrong. There is a polygyny strike. Oh sorry, serial monogamy strike. Older divorced men marrying young women. So, this is the reason, so many young men are not married – and will never marry (you cannot have kids by marrying 40s post-menopausal woman with her own kids).

    @ Deti
    “The second group with perhaps the exception of Italy come from cultures of either heavy socialism or communism. Certainly we know the abortion rate in the former USSR was quite high; query whether that can be extrapolated to Hungary, a former Soviet bloc nation. Socialism and communism place heavy emphasis on feminism, women in the workplace and “equal rights”, all of which could lead to increasing numbers of women in those countries simply eschewing motherhood altogether.”
    And I was always wondering why we had first marriage at a very young age (almost anyone married), above replacement fertility and below 10% out of wedlock birds till the end of communism (generally, when a woman wanted abortion she had to explain reasons to an “abortion commission” – so, real “encouragement” to abort). Now, we have below replacement fertility, 45% out of wedlock, sinking marriage-ship. But now, bunch of gender studies graduates regularly drivel on TV. Our former female minister of (in)justice writes erotic stories where is is being raped. When she was acting as minister, during investigation of one case she said “He might be innocent… But as a mother (of a daughter) I would execute him immediately”. You know, presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of the western law.

  77. krakonos says:

    Damn it, the site seems to be blocking comments. Isn;t here some size limit for comments?

  78. krakonos says:

    So by pieces:

    “What statistics often fail to tell us is …”
    composition of newborns by ethnicity or religion. This factor is consciously omitted.
    When it comes to France, it is not a secret, there is a strong Muslim minority with different birth rates and patters. You can just guess how charts looks for ethnic French. Just look at bigger cites like Paris, Marseilles, Grenoble – young Arab populations and multiple no-go zones. Dangerous even in daylight.
    When it comes to Denmark. Well, I do not know full statistics, but when it comes to Copenhagen, the only people filling the definition of family (man, woman and multiple kids) are Muslims. The impression is that Danish parents are usually single mothers with one kid (who knows who the father is).
    Yes, Eastern Europe is homogeneous… But, wait, gipsies. So, the same problem even in Hungary. And it is not only Hungary. Bulgaria with recent unrests due to a gipsy king car-killing a boy, Romania with gipsy gangs wandering over EU, Slovakia exporting gipsies to the Czech republic, etc. Recently my brother joked, if it were not for gipsies they could have closed maternity hospital.

  79. krakonos says:

    So, by the pieces, 2nd edition:

    @ TFH
    “A woman using ‘Sex and the City’ as a template for her life is about as immature as a man using James Bond or The A-Team as a template for his life.”
    Who the hell are you to attack The A-Team?!?😉
    @ TFH + Chels + Dhurka
    In fact, there is no marriage strike by men, but Dalrock is also wrong. There is a polygyny strike. Oh sorry, serial monogamy strike. Older divorced men marrying young women. So, this is the reason, so many young men are not married – and will never marry (you cannot have kids by marrying 40s post-menopausal woman with her own kids).

  80. Lavazza says:

    ““Natitivity has gone down a lot in countries where the state is not paying women to have babies (paid maternal leave, tax breaks, subsidized childcare etc.) and/or with high immigration.”

    Should read, nativity has gone down in countries where socialist feminist policies has bankrupt the state.”

    Why? The first is something I can prove. The second is much harder to prove. Not saying its not true, but identifying causes for social change is difficult, and a lot of people shoot from the hip to advance their agenda

  81. Kathy says:

    Boys, boys , boys, don’t get your knickers in a twist over nothing. It’s only a blog. It’s only a bunch of people exchanging opinions. It don’t amount to a hill of beans in the scheme of things.

    The world will not end tomorrow.

    No bubbles will burst.

    “This loving couple lives in a country that has a government that can and will retroactively charge and prosecutes a man for a marital rape 50 years ago.. ”

    Thanks for the laugh, greyghost, but er no, it will be thrown out of court. As the man’s lawyer David Bennett QC, told the High Court, under the laws at the time, a man could not be found guilty of the private raping of his wife unless he committed assault, the sexual assault of her was by another person, or they were maritally separated. In any event there has been nothing like this ever before, here. Trying to make something out of an isolated incident, is stretching it a bit. Lol.

    Your shaming language is duly noted, greyghost.

    “those wimped out supplicating (Australian ) men ” Hubby is laughing his ass off at that one reminding me once again why I should not be paying any attention to comments on blogs.

    Just an opinion and not a reflection of what is going on in real life.

    It is kinda funny how you proved hubby’s point though.😉

  82. Anonymous Reader says:

    The universality of these curves is interesting. Different cultures showing the same shift suggests some causation that is trans-cultural, or perhaps supra-cultural. It’s almost enough to make one believe in memetics.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

  83. AndrewV says:

    I was over at Pharyngula where someone stated that :

    “but they rarely use the statistics on custody from divorces where custody is contested – the only really relevant statistics – because in these cases, men are more likely to be granted custody than women.”

    Note: IMO many/most of the regulars at that site apparently try their best to be as offensive as possible. I notice many visitors get hung up on the “tone” (which may be the objective) to the detriment of addressing the content.

    I did ask for the data this assertion was based on, but I have no reason to believe that my comment was seen.

    However, I was wondering if you have an opinion on this, and if you thought it was worthy of a blog post.

    The comment in full may be found here:
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/09/29/haters-gotta-hate/comment-page-2/#comment-90589

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  85. annie says:

    I found that the most interesting new concept was that of “used women” not being wanted. This seems entirely quite likely.

  86. Heather says:

    The universality of the 2007-08 curves struck me as well. I’d be curious to see a series of graphs from various years comparing countries. I’ve heard that many countries are following similar birth rate patterns as they move toward an industrialized economy. It would be interesting to see if that’s the case.

  87. JayS says:

    I do not understand the first set of charts. If the y axis is percent of total births at a given age, then the area under the curve should always be the same and total to 1 or 100%. The curves for Denmark, France and Germany certainly seem to adhere to that. But in the case of Italy the area under the 1970 curve is significantly larger than that under the 2007 curve because they are both essentially coincident after the age of 32. Likewise the 1970 curve for Greece is consistently higher than that for the year 1995. For Hungary the curves for those two years are coincident from age 26 on. And the same story is true for Iceland.
    I’m sorry but I don’t understand the “Percent Childless by Education and Marital History” chart either. Does it mean that 85 percent of the childless women aged 40-44 were never married and that 16 percent of those women had been married at least once? If so, the numbers add to 101% – OK rounding error. But then if you are saying that 40% of the women in that age group who were had less than a HS degree had no children were never married and 9% of those women had been married – what happened to the other 51%?
    I do not see how you can draw any conclusions from these graphs without further explanation of what the Y-axis represents.

  88. CL says:

    There are some who are deluded into thinking that they can snare a woman 10-20 years younger than themselves.

    The fact is women are not the least interested in marrying a man with a big difference in age

    Ten years isn’t that big a difference. My mom is 12 years younger than my dad. I certainly wouldn’t say men are deluded in thinking they can get this for themselves. A 40-year-old man could get a 30-year-old woman no problem, all other things being in place, don’t you think? Assuming the man doesn’t look old for his age, a man at 40 can be pretty hot and if he’s spent his time making a decent life for himself, he could probably get an under 30 woman to have some kids with. My brother’s gf is also 10 years younger than he is. Twenty years, however, is pushing it for most.

    Of course, these days you’ll find lots of girls with daddy issues so it maybe 20 years difference isn’t such a pipe dream for a guy after all.

  89. hurpadurp says:

    Interesting stats, Dalrock. In reference to the questions you and Ben posed, while I’m hardly an expert on the subject, I have managed to find an article on JSTOR which address questions of demographic decline. In examining why some countries have a fertility curve that shifts forward while other countries have one that just declines entirely, have you thought of looking at population density in particular?

    According to the article “Population Density is a Key Factor in Declining Human Fertility” by Wolfgang Lutz, et. al, in Population and Environment, Vol. 28, No. 2 (Nov., 2006), pp. 69-81, a fairly significant negative correlation was found in a variety of different regions (including parts of Africa, where the negative relationship was particularly pronounced) to population density and female fertility. The authors give a few reasons for this, some perhaps a bit too materialistic; for instance the observation that many avian and mammal species show reduced population growths in an ecology where they’re densely concentrated. However, some of their other explanations strike me as reasonable; for instance, they point out that people living in what they perceive to be densely-populated areas would be less likely to have children for fear of finding a suitable place to live with a family, overcrowded schools, or whatnot. It might be instructive to compare the population density of the countries where the fertility curve has shifted compared to those where fertility has just fallen off.

    I’m not sure if you or your other commenters have access to JSTOR or other academic search engines which would allow you to view this article on-line, as I am, so if you want I could put a .pdf copy up on mediafire or something. I’m not sure if that would be legal for me to do, though. Still, I doubt anybody’s gonna come after some obscure commenter for “copyright” or anything like that, lol.

  90. Anonymous Reader says:

    Interesting point, hurpadurp, there likely is a correlation between increased urbanization and decline in birth rate. Japan would be a clear example: population decline since 2007. The mechanism or driver is likely hidden among a thicket of confounding variables, however.

  91. dhurka says:

    @chels

    I think we will have to agree to disagree. Myself, other male bloggers, a quick look at the media (consumed by women) or laws all support the position that your average woman hates men. Your best defense is ‘women are standing up for men in their heads’. Incredibly weak and impossible to prove or disprove. And ultimately meaningless even if it is true.

    @kathy

    If you have been married 15 years I would say you are probably in your forties. This is why you don’t see the changes coming down the road. The boomers and the early x-ers voted for these changes and believed in them. People don’t change their minds on a worldview which has been a significant part of their life. Einstein once said that older physicists would not be converted to his ideas, they would die and younger physicists would decide who was right. He was right and ironically this also happened to his generation which was very dismissive of the quantum physics of their successors.

    If you want to know the way the winds of tomorrow are blowing don’t ask a bunch of forty year olds. Maybe you should ask a bunch of ‘man children’ or ‘peter pans’ what they think of the prevailing orthodoxy of relationships.

  92. A lot of women are standing up for men in their heads

    And this is why a growing group of men think women hate them. Standing up for men “in your head” doesn’t count assuming that’s really happening. Men are not telepaths.

    I’m going to spread this quote far and wide because it shows a fundamental problem men are dealing with.

  93. Chels says:

    Oy, you know why women can’t stand up for every misandric thing that’s being said? Because doing so will not change anyone’s mind, a woman is not going to suddenly have a “light bulb” moment and realize she’s wrong. She’s probably not only going to keep bashing men, but she’s also going to start avoiding that friend who spoke against the “bastard” that “hurt” her.

    Ever heard of a little thing called “pick your battles”? This is a perfect examples of this–does it make sense for a woman to contradict her friend when she’s going on about how her “asshole” of a boyfriend/husband did something wrong? Probably not. I’ve tried doing that when one of my friends was complaining that a guy is an asshole after he dumped her (only to have her accuse me of taking his side; and to be fair, he did have some blame).

    However, it does make sense to stand up when a woman says something like “all men are assholes” or “I’ll screw that bastard if he divorces me”. Do you any of the men here stand up when a guy starts saying something like “man, women are bitches”? No, I bet you don’t, it really depends on context, sometimes someone just needs to let off some steam, and it doesn’t mean that she thinks that men are assholes in general, but she’s just exaggerating.

    As well, women standing up to her circle of friends is not going to change any laws, it’s not going to make anything more fair to men, because only feminists have the power to change them.

  94. Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:

    Wow, lots of bitterness here. I will agree that feminism (which, unfortunately gets way too much press) has created many, many problems for men AND women, alike. I’ve seen, first hand, how that affects marriages, children, and families. However, I would remind everyone that those opinions of the above mentioned, are not reflected by the majority of women.

    As they say: “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus”. That’s definitely true-I don’t think anyone can deny that. I understand the vitriol and anger that can be directed at the opposite sex, but the average American women is not how many of you would have them be perceived.

  95. Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:

    Also:
    There is always that one man or women you meet/have a relationship with that may sour your views towards the opposite (or same) sex. Unfortunately, people can be very cruel. Been there, for sure. However, I don’t let that color my perception of men. The majority of them are pretty damn cool. Women, too.

  96. zed says:

    She’s probably not only going to keep bashing men, but she’s also going to start avoiding that friend who spoke against the “bastard” that “hurt” her.

    You are known by the company you keep. What is the downside for anyone of having women lose their man-bashing female friends?

  97. zed says:

    As they say: “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus”. That’s definitely true-I don’t think anyone can deny that.

    I deny it. Men are from earth, women are from earth. Deal with it.

  98. Chels says:

    You are known by the company you keep. What is the downside for anyone of having women lose their man-bashing female friends?

    Well, I don’t have any feminist friends and I’ve cooled my relations with women who seem to have an anti-male view.

    However, I’m not going to stop being friends with a woman who complains about her boyfriend and calls him a jerk once in a while. It’s ridiculous to even imply such a thing, because it assumes that men are perfect, capable of making no mistakes, and that everything bad that happens in their relationship is automatically her fault.

    Nonetheless, I don’t discuss my personal problems that I have with my bf with my friends because our problems are between us only, and only we can fix them. No point in getting someone else involved.

  99. Joshua says:

    Chels-“Oy, you know why women can’t stand up for every misandric thing that’s being said?”

    No I didn’t know that, cause they can certainly stand up for every “PERCEIVED” misogynistic thing that’s being said. Erie how that works out.

    Chels-“She’s probably not only going to keep bashing men, but she’s also going to start avoiding that friend who spoke against the “bastard” that “hurt” her.”

    And here we have chels confirming TFH’s team woman theory. I love it when the woman make our point for us and dont even realize it.

  100. Chels says:

    As they say: “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus”. That’s definitely true-I don’t think anyone can deny that.

    I deny it. Men are from earth, women are from earth. Deal with it.

    I see this as one of the causes of the problems between men and women, if we’d both just see each other as people, we’d get along much better.

  101. Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:

    Hey Zed:

    You got me there. My point was that sometimes men and women have issues communicating with each other. I see it/experience it pretty often; it’s one of the common stumbling block of any relationship.

  102. Chels says:

    Joshua, reading comprehension please. Read my comment at 8:43PM as to why what you’re saying doesn’t make much sense.

  103. Joshua says:

    Chels-“However, I’m not going to stop being friends with a woman who complains about her boyfriend and calls him a jerk once in a while.”

    Chels your changing the language of the debate. Everyone has complaints about specific people of the opposite sex. Nowhere in these comments has any man indicated talking about someone specific who you are mad with is misandry. Were talking about a culture wide problem of woman not respecting men as a whole. Way to try to change a small detail to help your argument. Aint gonna work.

    Strawman FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!

  104. Chels says:

    And Joshua, also the one I made at 9:00PM.

  105. Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:

    It’s easy to argue behind some obscure moniker without using any kind of logic.

  106. Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:

    Joshua:
    You state that this is “…a culture wide problem of woman not respecting men as a whole”. I seriously doubt that. It seems you are only reading into the opinions of a small minority. The door swings both ways, unfortunately…

  107. Chels says:

    Joshua:
    You state that this is “…a culture wide problem of woman not respecting men as a whole”. I seriously doubt that. It seems you are only reading into the opinions of a small minority. The door swings both ways, unfortunately…

    You make a very good point AAWFUWMD, if I was going by certain blogs in the manosphere, I’d also think that men hate women. Good thing for men in real life and other blogs authored by men to see that this is not so.

  108. Badger says:

    Chels is really an unbelievable font of just plain wrong perspectives.

  109. Joshua says:

    Badger-“Chels is really an unbelievable font of just plain wrong perspectives.”

    So much so I made my first comment after lurking for a year.

  110. Chels says:

    Ok, Joshua/Badger, what do you propose, what are your solutions? I’m all open ears, as I think most of the women lurkers are (or they wouldn’t be reading such a blog in the first place)

  111. Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:

    Chels: agreed.

  112. No More Marriage says:

    “Maybe women shouldn’t have fucked up the marriage laws.

    Chels: It has nothing to do with messed up marriage laws, but everything to do with delayed adulthood and focusing on one’s career until their 30s. The reasons for delayed fatherhood are similar to the ones for delayed motherhood.”

    I am a married man, two kids, same woman since I was a teenager. My marriage has been the best thing that happened to me.

    Despite that, I will tell my son not to marry. Chels, I don’t want him to marry because of the horror I see in men my age, as they get pounded to bits in the courts.

  113. Ya Boy Matt says:

    Ya, don’t get your hopes up friend.

  114. norar says:

    It looks like evolution does not favor high intelligence.

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  116. Lily says:

    It looks like a slightly higher percentage of babies born in the UK are to mothers over 40 compared with the US, but still not very much. Here are the percents for 2010:
    Under 20: 5.61%
    20-24: 18.99%
    25-29: 27.55%
    30-34: 28.00%%
    35-39: 16.02%
    40 and over: 3.83% ]

    I just had another look at the data again, except for 2010, I just picked it out in 10 year gaps from 1938 as that was the starting year of the data and also of course it was a pre war year.

    The % of births to over 40s in 2010 is around 4% in all the years except 1948, 1958 and 1968.

    In 1938 it was 4.28%.

    Quite interesting to compare 2010 and 1938, in numbers, the births to over 40 are very similar. The numbers in the 25-29 category are eerily close, 20-24 pretty similar. There are more births to the under 20s but the % has gone down from 1948-1998 levels.

    The differences are more births in the 30s which make up the biggest difference in the no of overall births in 1938 (621,204) and 2010 (723,165).

  117. Lily says:

    TFH, I’m not sure what Dominic Raab’s tangible policy changes are.

    He has talked about more paternity leave but Cameron and Clegg were already on the case on that at the point of his rantings. In any case the last government already had proposals on it.

    Though having just looked up some articles to see if I’d remembered wrongly on the
    Mr Raab, whose wife Erika works in marketing for a major IT firm, said: “One commentator recently complained that, ‘high-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren’t attracted to women who are more successful than they are’. Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots.”

    I’ve seen those comments around the manosphere. He calls that a trite generalisation. So perhaps you won’t have that much in common after all.

  118. Lavazza says:

    Maybe he’s tongue in cheek. After all only feminists are allowed to generalize and speculate.

  119. uh says:

    Why are you chaps wasting energy arguing against female entitlement complex? Once given power, they defend it like ravenous stray dogs unto death — the death of our race, that is. To be frank I don’t even know just what “Chels” is after, but it’s a woman disagreeing with a man on something of weight, so it has to be evil.

  120. Susan Peterson says:

    In this whole thread no one has mentioned the effect of premarital sex on marriage. I know several large serious Catholic families all of whose children (the ones who have reached maturity at this point) have accepted and done their best to live by the “no sex before marriage rule.” ALL of them have gotten married in their early twenties, both the men and the women. My godson, the oldest of nine, married the oldest girl from a family of eight. None of these women hate men. In fact, they take seriously that the man is the head of the family. They don’t worry about divorce laws, because they do not consider divorce an option. I admit that these are young families at this point and there is no evidence about what will happen at the 20 year mark and beyond. Right now they are all busy with the care of several children under school age.

    I myself married at 19, but managed to finish the four years at my liberal arts college, pregnant with my first child in my senior year. (My husband is 3 1/2 years older.We have now been married 41 years.) When my youngest of nine children was two I went to a two year college for a nursing degree, then worked as a nurse while getting my BSN, and for a while afterwards. Now I work for a state agency in a job which uses my nursing knowledge, but which has regular hours, good pay, and good benefits. Only a tiny fraction of women who put career first do better than I have. Sure, there are things I can imagine having done in life which I would have liked, I think, which I couldn’t do and have nine children, things which I do have the brains to do. But I could only have done one of them in any case. One cannot escape making choices in life.

    To go back to my original subject, I have noticed that young and idealistic men tend to fall in love and are willing to give all for that love if the woman returns it and is loyal. Easy and non-serious sex does not foster that kind of love. Having too many partners really impairs the bonding effect of young love and the first sexual experience. I really believe we would have both earlier and happier marriages if people tried to be chaste before marriage. Of course, in a society in which all the societal strictures which promoted this have collapsed, only religious belief makes this possible. And, you have to believe the religion is true. It isn’t my purpose here even to try to convince you of that. I am just suggesting that the religious template for family life, in which men and women respect each other’s different nature and gifts, and in which they respect the serious meaning and purpose of their sexuality, shows itself to be a successful one.

    Susan Peterson

  121. Joshua says:

    Cosign TFH @ 10:21.

    Chels get back to us when you’ve done this.

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  123. Legion says:

    Average American women fed up with modern feminism says:
    October 9, 2011 at 9:08 pm
    “It’s easy to argue behind some obscure moniker without using any kind of logic.”

    This is the most ironic comment of the thread.

  124. Marty J says:

    In looking at the chart comparing 1992-94 and 2006-08 by educational attainment, the finding that at Masters degree and above teh childless perentacge has gone down can pewrhaps be explained by teh fact that in 1992-94 there were quite a bit fewer women with that level of education and they tended to be younger; a 50-year old with a Professional or PhD degree would have bee n born 1942-44 and earned that final credential ca. 1970, and ther ejust were not that many women doing that, back then, it was the satrt of the wave. By 2006-8 it was more the norm, and had been for a while.

    So i suggest that the higher education groups were considerably older in 2006-08 than in 1992-94, specifically old enough to have gotten into late-30s childbearing years, ina way that much fewer would have been ca. 1992-94.

    Tothe extent there is truth in that, the 2006-08 population is truly representative and the 1992-94 suffers a significant age bias, and there are 2 groups: “Some College or Less” have 15-18% childless at any point in time, and college grads and up about 23-25%. The chart for White women, only, is consistent with this.

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  126. Kelly Smith says:

    I didn’t marry until I was 36. Yes, I am a devout Catholic as is my husband. I had my first healthy child at 38, and guess what, I’m pregnant again at 42. No, we practice NFP and did it the old fashioned way. I and my child are very healthy. I had the Church-approved non invasive genetic testing, and nothing is wrong with my child. I also have the blood quality of a 27 year old woman. My ob/gyn is out of Northwestern Memorial Hospital and has told me that the vast majority of women he sees have normal healthy babies and may have to watch their blood pressure more, but otherwise do just fine. Please stop picking on and scaring “older women”. Why don’t you pick on the men who won’t commit instead?

  127. Eileen says:

    TFH — ouch.

    Kelly and I have similar stories, so I wouldn’t be so quick to assume she’s falsely representing herself. However, I think of my story more as a cautionary tale than one anyone should try to emulate. Women *should* be scared!! When I saw the charts here for the first time, I almost cried, because it made it that much clearer to me how close I’d come to losing everything I’d ever really wanted out of life. Especially since it wasn’t chance or happenstance that made it that way, but a sort of “learned helplessness” that allowed me to mask (or even deny) the poverty of my own choices. It is stunning the amount of “magical” thinking that exists in the female world regarding the single most important decision she will ever make, and I guess it shouldn’t be surprising that more and more women are finding themselves left out in the cold.

    I’m not sure what made me see the light, but once I did — I had a definite change of attitude and behavior — things fell into place for me very quickly, and I am very happily married today (13 years next month!).

    In other words, I got lucky when I met my husband. And this site reminds me that it is absolutely my business to make sure that he is “lucky,” too.

  128. Dalrock says:

    @Eileen

    Kelly and I have similar stories, so I wouldn’t be so quick to assume she’s falsely representing herself. However, I think of my story more as a cautionary tale than one anyone should try to emulate. Women *should* be scared!! When I saw the charts here for the first time, I almost cried, because it made it that much clearer to me how close I’d come to losing everything I’d ever really wanted out of life.

    This is why I share data like this, and as I’ve shared in a previous post my wife and I married young but could easily have had the window of opportunity to have children close on us. It really is startling to consider, even though everything worked out just fine for us.

    In other words, I got lucky when I met my husband. And this site reminds me that it is absolutely my business to make sure that he is “lucky,” too.

    One thing which disturbs me is how many people are incredibly fortunate and have everything to be happy about yet following the message of our culture throw it away (either by divorce or turning their marriage into hell on earth). Not only are they harming their spouse and their children (if any exist), but they are doing incredible harm to themselves. Your attitude is so simple it is hard for others to see the profound wisdom in it. I truly enjoyed reading this as I can picture you and your husband in the kind of appreciative partnership marriage can and should be.

  129. Dalrock says:

    @Kelly Smith

    I didn’t marry until I was 36. Yes, I am a devout Catholic as is my husband. I had my first healthy child at 38, and guess what, I’m pregnant again at 42. No, we practice NFP and did it the old fashioned way. I and my child are very healthy. I had the Church-approved non invasive genetic testing, and nothing is wrong with my child.

    I wouldn’t call a woman waiting to marry until she is 36 and having her first child at 38 “the old fashioned way”, but I am truly happy that it worked out for you.

    I also have the blood quality of a 27 year old woman. My ob/gyn is out of Northwestern Memorial Hospital and has told me that the vast majority of women he sees have normal healthy babies and may have to watch their blood pressure more, but otherwise do just fine.

    I’m not sure what the blood quality of a 27 year old woman is, or how this is relevant. Are you denying that you faced additional risk in having a child at 42 (even though it turned out fine)? See this chart which I first shared mid way down on this post. Note that most post 40s pregnancies don’t involve chromosome disorders. This doesn’t change the fact that the risk is real and increasing the older the mother is.

    Please stop picking on and scaring “older women”.

    I shared 8 charts showing age of childbirth (7 from the OECD, one I created using US Census data). All 8 showed that some women have children after age 40. But all 8 showed this information in context. All I can assume is that you are upset that I showed the information in context. Moreover, I’m not trying to frighten older women, but trying to help younger women and men understand the bigger picture, despite a culture full of “guess what! I got pregnant at age 42 and it was fine!” stories which would give them a false impression of the true risks they face. You would have me be cruel to young people in order not to hurt the feelings of people who could have made better choices.

    Why don’t you pick on the men who won’t commit instead?

    Are you saying that you made marriage and looking for a husband your top priority from the beginning, kept your chastity, and yet no man was willing to marry you until you were 36? I find that highly unlikely. I’m guessing it was a combination of other priorities (career, education, ect) and none of the men who were interested being good enough for you. As with late life pregnancy, your choices worked out fine for you in the end (and again I am glad for that), but would you recommend them to a young woman? Are you willing to give bad advice to young people to avoid making yourself feel bad by recognizing the path you took might not have been ideal?

  130. Eileen says:

    Ah, but TFH, you assume too much. I may be new here, but I’ve already commented more than once about what a scam I think feminism is, and that its influence over me personally is something I consider near-tragic. I’m sure I’ll have the opportunity to say it again in a variety of ways, though, on a site like this; so stay tuned.

    Marriage is so common, that I think it can escape some (probably less mature, and I think I have to include myself here) young people’s notice what a monumental, life-shaping decision it is, and that it merits more than mere chance and flighty relationship dabbling to make it happen. (I think ultimately the answer is in profound personal responsibility — something feminism obviously eschews.) Feminism has made it unacceptable for a young woman to think this way, however — imagine what anyone would have thought of me if, back in the mid-80s, smart, accomplished and fresh out of grad school, I mentioned to anyone that what I really wanted most out of life was to be a wife and mother, and that’s where I planned to focus my attention? It would’ve sounded ridiculous, even to me! (Somehow, though, constantly whining about “not being able to find the right guy” sounded just fine.) Yet by not thinking that way, I wasted all of my 20s and half my 30s, opening the door to some of the loneliest, most confusing and painful years of my life. And if I hadn’t woken up, I’d likely still be there, wondering, how did this happen to *me*?

    Are you the one who is always saying that women can’t figure out cause and effect? Guilty as charged.😉

    @Dalrock —
    Thank you for your kind words! More importantly, thank you for taking on this subject. I can’t get over the high quality of the posts and the discussion on this site. Thanks for making it available!

  131. Pingback: Do women want to get married? | Dalrock

  132. Pingback: Expectations vs outcomes. | Dalrock

  133. frenchy says:

    Dalrock,

    Maybe you’ll read this. Followed this from your more recent post (it’s 11 May 13). It would be interesting to see the number of children born by those who have the higher degrees. My thought is that they are merely punching a ticket and only having one kid.

    I think one more thing would be is if there is any info on the older women who have in vitro fertilization. was talking with my sister and we both agreed, today’s younger women are not being told by these older women having kids HOW they are having those kids and the trouble they are going through to have those kids.

    great piece! me get smarter when me read here!

  134. Luke says:

    krakonos says:
    October 9, 2011 at 4:04 am

    @ TFH

    Who the hell are you to attack The A-Team?!?😉

    Old joke:
    Q: What’s white with a black @sshole?
    A: The A-Team. 😀

  135. Luke says:

    Kelly Smith says:
    October 11, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    ” I had my first healthy child at 38, and guess what, I’m pregnant again at 42. No, we practice NFP and did it the old fashioned way. I and my child are very healthy. I had the Church-approved non invasive genetic testing, and nothing is wrong with my child.”

    Incorrect.

    “…the life expectancy dropoff issue.
    It turns out that there is a roughly even reduction in life expectancy in daughters with increasing maternal age past about age 34.. It is universal, and can’t be tested for or avoided. Conceiving at age 44 [if you even could] would knock on average about a decade off the life of any little ones you’d want to put in dresses and put bows in their hair. And, it’s not a case of “they just die at 66 instead of 76, with everything the same before then”. Rather, they’d have about a 15% reduced life expectancy and reduced vitality all through life, from the very first day you hold them in your arms.”

  136. Pingback: Exploding 50 something pregnant women. | Dalrock

  137. Pingback: How much does IVF allow a woman to delay having children? | Dalrock

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