Trapped in motherhood

Commenter udolipixie was troubled by my post Trapped in adulthood:

…she’s just an immature complainer.

I’m not sure how her character is related to “So here you have it. The evil patriarchy’s greatest crime is expecting women to grow up.”

If anything it should be society’s crime is producing people who don’t take responsibility for their actions & influencing adults and even seniors to act like petulant children.

She is of course right.  That is, if by society she means feminism, and by people she means women.  The point of the post wasn’t gee look, a woman who complains.  The point was how socially acceptable this is.  In fact it goes beyond mere acceptance to celebration. Lorraine Berry wasn’t just whining about being tricked into adulthood on her facebook page or blog;  her poor me I had to become an adult in my mid to late 20s essay was published in Salon as a story of empowerment, inspiration, and overcoming adversity.

This isn’t to say that there aren’t childish whiny men out there.  They exist too.  However, they aren’t made into folk heroes for whining and/or shirking their responsibilities.  They are seen as the whiny childish men they are;  no one lauds their courage for “baring their pain” so that others may benefit.  Very often the men who have made real sacrifices aren’t even the ones to tell their own stories.  When their stories are told they are typically told by others, often by their children.    Also, stories of men’s sacrifice have an entirely different message.  They are examples of courage and manhood;  something for other men to recognize and respect the will to do the right thing and finish what you started.

In stark contrast, women are continuously given public forums to complain about being the victim of their own choices.  This is presented as them being selfless and courageous;  speaking on behalf of self victimized women everywhere.  A recent article in the Femail section of the Daily Mail exemplifies this.  Am I monster for wishing I’d never had children? The confession that fills a mother with shame:

As I looked around at them, I should have felt a sense of pride that my husband of nearly 30 years and my two grown-up sons were together for a few convivial days.

Instead, I felt a stab of disappointment that this gathering was the sum total of what I have achieved in my life. One husband, two children, reasonable cooking skills. Not much to show for my 50 years.

Which is why I know I would have had a better and fuller life — had I never been a mother.

That is right.  This poor woman was trapped in motherhood.  Those damnable patriarchal bastards!  They did it again!  This time they have outdone themselves though.  They stole this woman’s chance for happiness:

Most perturbing of all, these narrow horizons were exactly what I had once wanted. The only future I ever envisaged for myself was as a wife and mother.I wasn’t especially good at anything at school, and I was never going to have a career nor did I have any ambitions to one.

Clearly in order to pull off a crime of this magnitude, the patriarchy must have sent in one of their best men.  How does the bastard live with what he has done?  He preyed on her total lack of talent, ambition, and imagination, forcing her to live a comfortable life!  I wish I could get my hands on this SOB and teach him a lesson.  How could he do that?  How could he steal the life of this unambitious talentless courageous woman?  Thats right, I said courageous.  Instead of keeping her whimpering to herself, she has selflessly decided to share her story so that others might benefit:

And I have decided to share my experience here (under a pseudonym) because I suspect there are many other women who harbour such feelings of regret about motherhood, but dare not talk about it.

…So let me say it for all those who will not or cannot: I regret having had children.

We all owe her and her anonymous courage a debt of gratitude.

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107 Responses to Trapped in motherhood

  1. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    It would have been better if chicks like her have never reproduced. Let them pursue their destruction and their liberal-libertarian lifestyles.

    (Elizabeth Smith.)

  2. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Sorry if I sound disturbing but in a way their instincts and beliefs won’t be passed down to their children. Imagine all of the left-liberal and right-liberal blood not being replicated due to feminism and environmentalism (two major components of liberalism driving the main reasons for no children). With genes increasingly outside of the frame there is only the need to influence culture and philosophy (social factors) alongside cleaning religion of heresies and turning more orthodox (which is happening little by little). After this is done tackling aspects like media and politics will be much easier.

    (Elizabeth Smith.)

  3. Opus says:

    What, I find really sad from looking at the green and red arrows in the comments at the Mail article is that so many people agree with the writer. Perhaps I have it all wrong, but (from my days as a divorce lawyer) the one thing a woman would not give up was her children, so it is difficult for me to understand what the readers of the Mail are on about. Indeed, all of the childless women I have known who claimed that they had no interest in motherhood, on becoming mothers always said it was the best thing they ever did (as one knew they would). Their rational thoughts are always trumped by biological reality. Perhaps what the writer of the article really means is that she now regrets that, her children having grown up, that now she sees little point in life – i.e. she wishes she were still a young mother and attempts to rationalise this by regretting her earlier life.

    The sad thing is this: I know a woman who married, aged forty, but her wealthy husband made it clear he did not want children. He has a wandering eye, so she now feels neglected. Unbeknownest to him, in her mid-forties she underwent fertility treatment hoping to become pregnant. She failed. She puts an unconvincing but brave face aged fifty on her childless-ness. I always feel that a woman who claims she is uninterested in mother-hood is like a Lion who claims that he is not the sort of Lion who wants to eat Gazelles. It is not very convincing.

    The writer seems to be indulging in Utopian fantasies where the grass i.e. the corporate cubicle, the Alpha Males, and the endless partying, is always greener, but the reality may (had it happened, which as she had little education it clearly would not have) have been closer to 1. Redundancy, 2 STDs/Abortions as she chased ever lower and lower calibre men 3. Sex Tourism in an effort to obtain ‘love’ and persuade herself that she was still hot and desirable 4. Drink and/or Drugs, as she watches with envy her contemporaries become happily married and the younger generation pull the guys she can no longer attract.

  4. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Wow this is the most selfish idiotic piece of literature I ever read. She doesn’t even say well I always wanted to be a pilot and I was good at it (no that will be good but you at least could think of her losing something she wanted), her options were marriage and children or.. lonely in a low pay job desperate to find a man that pay her any sort of attention because she was boring and talentless? Geez what an idiot. And yet I’m sure she will get a lot of “hear you” sister women have it so hard…western world is SOO doomed!

  5. Ceer says:

    Quite possibly this woman is looking at the lack of true adversity in her life and calling it “boring”. Badger has a great post up about how “romance” is created through some sort of conflict. Women seem to have a need for this. Some of the smarter ones either learn to live with a low level of drama or learn to create harmless drama over nothing. This woman doesn’t seem that smart. She has to be entertained by a man. We in the mannosphere know that sooner or later, this would be welcome from ANY man, not just her husband.

    That she transfers the blame for this from her husband to her children is the first step in rationalizing away one of the key protections from divorce.

  6. Bb says:

    I didn’t get the idea that Scott’s article in the daily was presented as “selfless and courageous.” She’s not proud of her feelings, the headline itself tells us it’s a “confession that fills a mother with shame.”

    I also didn’t see anywhere in the article where she blames her husband for her situation. Towards the end of the article that she says that she loves him, would never leave him, and understands that she made her choices and will live them.

    Instead, the focus of this article is about her feelings toward motherhood itself. Yet, despite her feelings, she stayed in the marriage and raised her children with her husband.

    I would not waste praise on a woman who does what she’s supposed to do, but her actions are better than a woman who divorces in search of something better—as Berry did.

  7. Passing Gal says:

    You know, this really reminds of another Daily Mail article about how her husband becomes paralyzed, so she send him into nursing home and later having an affair because she felt lonely, while rationalizing all her actions as for the best for herself and the children.

    It’s something I noticed about women that when they were committing wrongs or selfish acts, they always said “If I don’t do this, then I will be miserable, making everyone feel miserable, so by doing this I make everyone happy.” The article I mentioned said taking care of her paralyzed husband herself will stressed her out thus stressed her children out, so she sent him into a nursing home. A female writer who decided to live abroad and thus not taking care of her children said if she didn’t pursue her dreams she won’t be really happy, so it was better for her to be happy rather than miserably taking care of her children. A woman cheated said that because of her the relationship failed, the man get to be with a better woman than her and she got to be with the other man, so her cheating actually brings happiness to both of them.

    The rationalization hamster really is strong, it’s so hard for them to admit that they are actually a bad person.

  8. Bb says:

    @alcestiseshtemoa I think she’d be the first to agree with you that she should not have reproduced. There are women that have difficulty bonding with their own children. She seems to be one of those.

  9. NeverAgain says:

    Oh how I wish my ex would come to the same conclusion and grant me full custody. Maybe I should send her the article? Of course she’d have to give up the monthly check…..

    Considering that, I’m dreaming.

  10. jack says:

    Women have an intellectual/emotional libido in addition to their sexual one.
    Unlike men, their sexual libido is not the one to watch out for. It is the first one.

    Try this experiment:
    Take any common stereotype about men and sex, and substitute “women” and “power”.

    “Men think about sex once every seven minutes”
    “Women think about power once every seven minutes”

    “Men think about every kind of sex there is, and every perverted variation of it. They like to watch movies of other people having sex.”

    “Women think about every kind of power there is, and every perverted variation of it. They like to watch movies of other people wielding or submitting to power.”

    Sex and the City is emotional PowerPorn for women.

    So are romance novels, which are often fodder for womens’ dominance/submission pwoer-scorekeeping fantasies.

    Regardless of whether one believes the Bible, it is still instructive what happens in the first few paragraphs:

    1) World was paradise; perfect
    2) Woman decided it was not quite perfect enough
    3) Woman listens to Voice of Seduction ™
    4) Takes action; reaches for the apple
    5) Hell on earth

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Women are crazy obsessed with power: Who has it, who does not have it, how they use it, etc.

    Power is the ultimate viagra for women.

  11. jack says:

    Further:
    When a 20-something male is fantasizing about some hot actress, he is imagining all the twistedly fun things he wants to do with her.

    When a 20-something female is fantasizing about some boy-band guy, she is fantasizing about the social power she would gain by being his girlfriend.

  12. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “When a 20-something female is fantasizing about some boy-band guy, she is fantasizing about the social power she would gain by being his girlfriend.”

    You know I happen to agree, to an extent, one of the first thing a woman does when she gets a new boyfriend is introduce him to the girlfriends and usually ask them What do you think of him? later when they are alone with the girls. Do men ever ask what their bros think of their women?

  13. sean says:

    Ok this woman is so far in delusionville it’s ridiculous. What she faiils to realize is that w/o hubbie & kids she would have nothing to show for 50 yrs except for the ability to breathe air. Want proof of her incredible laziness? At 50 my mom had got 3 kids off to college. Was she mopping about lost youth? No. She was excited to be taking her nursing career to new levels now that she had free time. She was taking classes to join the computer age and finally looked forward to taking the financial burden off my father since he had retired. You are not dead at 50; get off your butt & be the woman you claim you could have been w/o kids.

    [D: Great point. She’s not dead yet… Some of the commenters on the original piece made the same observation.]

  14. Svar says:

    Heh, what a stupid woman. Seriously, are most women nowadays like her or is it just some women?

  15. Lavazza says:

    Yeah, it is really incredible what fantasies (some or most) women have about what they could have acheived, if it weren’t for men and children. One thing is sure: Most women would have had less money to spend and a lower net worth, if they had remained unmarried and childless.

  16. Lavazza says:

    jack; You’re onto something. According to Susan Walsh women seldom have orgasms from hook ups/ONS (which are most often with higher status males, since same status men are more interested in repeat businessm where women have orgasms more often). Being associated with power/status seems to be the life blood of most or many women.

  17. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Heh, what a stupid woman. Seriously, are most women nowadays like her or is it just some women?

    I’m about to graduate high-school and some girls told me “I’m not going to have children” and the main reasons were feminism, environmentalism or a combination of both. Girls whom didn’t have a negative view of motherhood and traditional marriage were apolitical or grew up in somewhat religious conservatives home like me. One girl even told me “I will never stay married. I want to be divorced” and this girl typically chased all of the “alphas” and was pretty attractive physically.

  18. Dalrock says:

    @Bb

    I also didn’t see anywhere in the article where she blames her husband for her situation. Towards the end of the article that she says that she loves him, would never leave him, and understands that she made her choices and will live them.

    The whole piece is dripping with victimization and a martyr complex. This is standard feminist fare, going back to Friedan’s problem with no name:

    It sucks us dry. It inhibits our growth as individuals, saps our strength and takes away our confidence in ourselves.

    She even suggests the reason she couldn’t enjoy being a mother is that her children were male:

    I don’t believe either of my boys or their father ever suspected how gruelling I found family life. Maybe if I’d had daughters, it would be different. Perhaps we would have been closer and shared more confidences.

    No matter what is happening, she somehow was given the short end of the stick. When she didn’t have to work she suffered through dull boringness. When she did work she had too much to juggle, etc.

    I found the early years of motherhood dull and lonely, the middle years fraught and challenging, and the last few — when my boys were difficult teenagers — often miserable.

    When I went back to work, I began the juggling act of job and family, always falling short on both scores, and feeling more out of touch with myself as the years passed.

    I would complain, as most women do. Too much to do, too few hours in the day, kids playing up, husband not involved enough in family life, money tight.

    Do you seriously not see the feminist boilerplate in this?

  19. Anonymous says:

    Damn, I’ll bet her kids feel REALLY loved knowing their mother regretted having them. Just like Casey Anthony… only Casey had a douchebag wannabe-club promoter living with a roomate (ooh, hot!) to get her going over the edge. Oh, the horror at the woman in this article not having such fulfillment in her life!

  20. Opus says:

    @Bb

    It is true she stayed married, but as you can see blames her husband for not being sufficiently involved (i’d like to hear his view on that). She is a victim. Of course, had she divorced, she’d also still be a victim. If she had never married, or had children this would also be the fault of men for not committing, or not being good enough. If she had children without marrying she would be entitled to do so, and expect sympathy for her heavy burden.

    Call me cruel, but I dated a woman last year who on our first date revealed she was a single mum – hard work but just about worth it, she said – and that just said to me ‘selfish’. I didn’t ask her out again.

  21. NeverAgain says:

    SAHMs tend to think they would be the CEO of some major corporation had they not “thrown it all away”. It’s like when women work out and worry about “getting too big”, it’s just not going to happen. They watch too many Ellen Brockovich type movies and Lifetime specials and think it’s nothing more than being a smart-ass to the big guys and that’s how you get on top. They don’t realize that it takes years and years of studying, working 60+ hour weeks, and cut throat moves to get ahead. If their husband is fairly successful then they tend to be even more deluded, especially if their husband is already established to the point that he doesn’t have to struggle in his career. They look at what he does, lose respect for him for whatever hairball reason, and figure they could do it better themselves by leaving him and going out and earning themselves six-figure incomes and the attention of male models, all without breaking a sweat. It’s nothing more than a delusional fantasy fueled by the likes of Dr Phil and Oprah. It’s when they get into the real world at $8/hour and the bag boy at the local grocery store is the only one interested in them that they wake up to their mistake.

    Husbands, want a happy wife? Shoot your TV, disconnect the phone, and introduce her to reality. Failure is the greatest teacher there is.

  22. Kai says:

    “Opus says:
    I always feel that a woman who claims she is uninterested in mother-hood is like a Lion who claims that he is not the sort of Lion who wants to eat Gazelles. It is not very convincing.”

    Do you really not believe in statistical outliers? True, the vast majority of women want to have children, but most is never all. There’s no reason not to believe that some women are on the edge of the bell curve and are genuinely uninterested in motherhood. Unless it is vast swaths of women making the claims, the few may well be honest.

  23. Morticia says:

    She is saying she wishes her children didn’t exist. Nice.

  24. Capsaicin says:

    Stephenie,

    You wrote:

    “You know I happen to agree, to an extent, one of the first thing a woman does when she gets a new boyfriend is introduce him to the girlfriends and usually ask them What do you think of him? later when they are alone with the girls. Do men ever ask what their bros think of their women?”

    The answer, largely, is no. We don’t really care what our male friends think of our girls. We might ask our biological brothers what they think of her, but not our friends.

    I’m not sure I can recall one instance of any of my guy friends asking for my opinion on their women or me doing the same to them.

    We do want to think that other men find our girl physically attractive, but that’s all. And even then, if we like the girl and find her attractive, the opinions of others matter almost nada.

    Men generally don’t need the validating opinions of anyone but themselves when it comes to mate choices–clearly, women do.

    That’s not a knock on them; it’s just recognizing the way the world works. And to those of us who understand these differences, we can enhance our success in the SMP.

  25. OhioStater says:

    Has anyone noticed the biggest reason Casey Anthony did what she did is because she felt trapped in motherhood?

    We should not let the fact she’s crazy prevent us from discussing her biggest motive.

    What is this manosphere about if we don’t review her?
    1. We don’t know the father of Caylee
    2. A beta provider was ready to marry her. He hoped Caylee was his kid.
    3. The men she dated weren’t alpha in the conventional sense.

    Casey is probably the most compelling example of the dangers of getting involved with a single mom.

    [D: Interesting parallel. I hadn’t thought of that. This stuff is truly pathological. It is especially dangerous because it isn’t generally called out. So many women must read this stuff and think it is normal. Maybe not this specific piece, but the general “poor me” tone that runs through these. Seeing yourself as a victim is extremely corrosive. It destroys the woman and those closest to her.]

  26. Kai says:

    I don’t care about the happiness of women who are free to make their own choices. I do care about the happiness of children.
    Not all women want children. Sure, most do. But some don’t. And some, whether or not they think they want them, are simply not suited for motherhood.
    For the good of the children, wouldn’t it be prudent to stop trying to convince women to have kids? (I am not suggesting this is what is happening in the mainstream.) I think women would be better served by bring given a realistic portrayal – motherhood is rewarding but difficult, and *will* negatively impact every other part of your life. I strongly support procreation by those who genuinely want to be parents, and are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices. But as long as we run the myth that ‘most’ means ‘all’ women want kids, we push the ones who really wouldn’t be much good at it into thinking they must want kids, and will figure it out by love when the babies come.
    Sure, this woman may have equally regretted her choices had she actually not had kids, but I agree with the basic concept that some women have kids just because it is what they are expected to do, and they aren’t always happy with it later, despite the massive taboo against admitting it. But worse. a lot of kids are more perceptive about that than the parents think.
    I strongly encourage anyone who is not sure if they want to be a mother/father to NOT do so unless they become sure. It’s one thing to regret your choices later in life. It’s another to have another person damaged by those choices.

    [D: I agree. No one should be pushed into marriage or becoming a parent. But those who decide to need to suck it up and see it through. She wanted to run with the bulls…]

  27. Badger says:

    “Badger has a great post up about how “romance” is created through some sort of conflict. ”

    Could you elaborate? I don’t recall writing exactly that, but it sounds good so I’d like to see my work😉

  28. Bb says:

    Dalrock,
    I freely concede that she’s portraying herself as a victim and martyr, which I find distasteful. Although I haven’t read Friedan, I’ll take your word that some of this text is feminist boilerplate.

    But I did not read any text in the article where she concretely blames her husband for her situation—the argument you make in your post.

    Here’s what I did see: “I made my choices, and I I live with them”; “these narrow horizons were exactly what I had once wanted”; “I gave up work for five years to concentrate on the children.” “I had committed to family life.”

    These quotes sound like she’s whining about her own choices, not blaming her husband for them. Can you tell me what you’re seeing in the text that I don’t?

  29. Gorbachev says:

    It just makes the point:

    The reason men treat women like children: Because women act like little children. Grow the fuck up. Act like an adult or GTFO. If men are expected to take responsibility for their choices, then Woman Up (Womyn Up?) and act like an adult human being.

    On women, “As Good As It Gets” (Jack Nicholas): On Women:

    “I imagine a man. Then I subtract reason and responsibility.”

    This is so bizarrely true it’s almost impossible not to shake your head in awe at the succinct genius.

  30. Anonymous says:

    Gorbachev said: “The reason men treat women like children: Because women act like little children. … Act like an adult or GTFO. If men are expected to take responsibility for their choices, then Woman Up (Womyn Up?) and act like an adult human being.”

    Yup. “I want someone who’s happy all the time,” my soon-to-be-Ex whined shortly before we got divorced, justifying it. Her apparently “happier” choice introduced her to pump-and-dump instead. I suggested she might be describing mania or Prozac usage, but what’d I know? Don’t want her back.

  31. Anonymous says:

    eHarmony’s two cents…

    “Eight Reasons Women Fall Out of Love,”
    http://advice.eharmony.com/relationships/breaking-up/eight-reasons-women-fall-out-love?cid=2091&aid=0706111

    Half were pretty much such women need to grow the heck up… the rest were male not doing the job (2) and shouldn’t have gotten together in the first place (2).

  32. Amirantes says:

    @Gorbachev: I believe the line may have actually been, “I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability”, which, to me, is even better. Brilliantly concise description of the difference between the sexes.

  33. Dalrock says:

    @Bb

    I freely concede that she’s portraying herself as a victim and martyr, which I find distasteful. Although I haven’t read Friedan, I’ll take your word that some of this text is feminist boilerplate.

    I’m not student of Friedan, but the primary theme in her book The Feminine Mystique is extremely famous; the problem that has no name. This is the book which is frequently cited as kicking off second wave feminism. If you follow the link on the word feminism at the top of the post (or here) you will see my write up on it, complete with quotes from wikipedia. Here is what Wikipedia says on the book itself:

    Impact

    The Feminine Mystique is widely regarded as one of the most influential nonfiction books of the 20th century, and is widely credited with sparking the beginning of second-wave feminism in the United States. Futurist Alvin Toffler declared that it “pulled the trigger on history.”[2] Friedan received hundreds of letters from unhappy housewives after its publication, and she herself went on to help found the National Organization for Women, an influential feminist organization.[12]

    By the year 2000, The Feminine Mystique had sold more than 3 million copies and had been translated into many foreign languages.[2]

    As for your other point:

    But I did not read any text in the article where she concretely blames her husband for her situation—the argument you make in your post.

    I get it now. I was using her husband as a personification of the evil patriarchy which conspired to prevent her from being happy. As is typical in these cases, she feels the victim of some vague set of circumstances. The closest she comes to putting this in concrete form is suggesting it was her sons’ fault for being male.

  34. Brendan says:

    I believe the line may have actually been, “I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability”, which, to me, is even better. Brilliantly concise description of the difference between the sexes.

    Yes it was that one. And it makes sense. Women are often very responsible in conventional ways. But trying to hold one who isn’t religious (and even them sometimes) accountable in this culture is like kicking yourself in the face a thousand times per second.

  35. Bb says:

    Dalrock,
    I seem to remember reading some Friedan in college. I have to confess I’m not excited about re-examining her writing in any way, so again I’ll take your word for it.

    As for the article, there’s no vague set of circumstances to blame. Scott clearly states that motherhood, a role that she herself chose, made her unfulfilled and unhappy. She says this straightforwardly and repeatedly, and I don’t get how these multiple statements are outweighed by her single tentative guess that maybe she’d have done better with girls. The only conspiracy she suggests is the conspiracy of silence among her female friends.

  36. pb says:

    Dalrock, sorry for the OT question, but I don’t think you’ve written anything on this recently, (I just started reading your blog this year.) I believe your position is that Christian men should be looking for a Christian woman who shares the same beliefs regarding marriage, etc. Have you written anything on the sort of dating rules they should be following up to the point when they can decide she is or isn’t compatible and to be more serious? That is, should Christian men be following “traditional” expectations about dating — going on dinner dates, paying for everything, etc? Or should they follow more the rules put forth by writers about Game — cheap dates or not paying for anything, etc.? (I am thinking that once a woman has shown that she’s traditional a man can be more traditional, but what is to be done up to that point?)

    [D: I’m more pragmatic than religious. It just turns out that the old school religious view is very pragmatic. I think it is important to be well matched on religion, but I wouldn’t assume that because a woman is a committed Christian that she will be more likely to keep her wedding vows than an atheist or less religious woman (see here for data). You still need to test for this separately. You also want to be on guard for the Christian women who are looking to marry without feeling real love or attraction. As for practical yet moral rules for courtship, you might ask Elusive Wapiti or maybe the bloggers at Traditional Christianity (both on my blogroll). Good luck!]

  37. Jennifer says:

    Alces, I don’t think her kids will be adapting her principles, believe me.

    Nailed it, Dalrock.

    [D: Thanks!]

  38. Dalrock says:

    @Bb

    As for the article, there’s no vague set of circumstances to blame. Scott clearly states that motherhood, a role that she herself chose, made her unfulfilled and unhappy. She says this straightforwardly and repeatedly, and I don’t get how these multiple statements are outweighed by her single tentative guess that maybe she’d have done better with girls.

    Nope. Read it again. Everything made her unhappy. Working made her unhappy, not working made her unhappy. She complains about her husband, she complains about how grueling family life was. It wasn’t just the specific role of motherhood. She felt trapped being a wife and mother. It stole her identity, etc. Again, this is all boilerplate stuff.

  39. Doug1 says:

    Stephenie Rowling–

    You know I happen to agree, to an extent, one of the first thing a woman does when she gets a new boyfriend is introduce him to the girlfriends and usually ask them What do you think of him? later when they are alone with the girls. Do men ever ask what their bros think of their women?

    They sometimes ask but far more often observe. Guys are mainly interested in how hot their guy friends feel she is, and they mainly get that by observing how the act around her. Now some guys do care about what a couple or often one close male friend thinks of her as a person if he’s getting serious about her.

    All in all though, guys care about what their friends think of their gf so long as it not off the edges in extremity way less than girls do.

    Girls are also looking for a far more cosmic, open ended, judgment from their gfs about their candidate bf than guys are.

  40. Doug1 says:

    Stephenie Rowling–

    I’ve been seeing and talking to you mostly here and at Susan Welsh’s site for a number of months now.

    For some time i thought you were unambiguously white. For one thing you’ve adopted a white screen name, but that’s only a part of it. Then I saw you alluding to being Dominican (Republic). About 1/3 black and 2/3 Spanish lumpy mix isn’t it? Then I saw you refer to the cultural differences between your family and most Dominicans, and figured you’re probably a pretty white seriously Catholic Dominican, but possibly mostly the latter.

    Well anyway I’m curious about all this. How light skinned are you? I already know you’re pretty damn Catholic.

    Regards.

  41. Doug1 says:

    White=Euro. In this specific case, and English Euro name.

  42. jackytar says:

    One day when she’s old and her sons have children, she’s going to be so grateful to have family to look out for her. Old people get preyed upon by scam artists all the time. My mother called me a few years ago for advise about getting her asphalt driveway re surfaced. The ” contractor ” was in her kitchen and was aggressively trying to get her to sign a contract for hundreds of dollars to spray a little tar. She was getting scared. Even though I was thousands of miles away, I called the police in my home town and they were there in a minute and drove him away.
    My point is, no one will care for you like family will. When you’re old and decrepit, your children will be there for you like nobody else will.

  43. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “For some time i thought you were unambiguously white. For one thing you’ve adopted a white screen name, but that’s only a part of it.”

    Heh is actually a writer’s name both of my favorite writers at the point I started in the manosphere. Funny that you read the race and not the profession. We Dominicans are very mixed so we usually identify with all sorts of people for all sorts of reason like profession. If I had started 5 years before I probably would had used Doris Saramago (Doris Lessing+jose saramago) my email for this fake name is Hypatia and the other fake name is Hapshetsup…so is mostly whatever I feel like in any given time.:)

    “Well anyway I’m curious about all this. How light skinned are you?”

    The race thing is really confusing here in USA were the race you belong to is kind of your God. I had seen arguments of black people denying that us Dominicans or caribbean in general are black in spite of our African slave ancestry (maybe because we mixed very soon and the children of this unions had the chance of freedom and education?) , but also against Nigerian and other African immigrants being snobbish against them so I’m like ???? I’m not light enough to be white, my hair needs relaxer so that part is black too and I also have some Asian looking eyes (according to the legend my mother descends from the last Tainos) so I mostly look…Philippine? Ask Susan she saw my pic so might me be able to tell you more about what the heck I look like. I like to call myself triracial.😀

    “I already know you’re pretty damn Catholic.”

    Heh is very funny how you tell me that how catholic I am because I didn’t knew this till I came here, I did wanted to be a nun (and I would had been a great nun) but we all catholic girls want that at some point in our lives. Keeping myself virgin and try to find a good man and be monogamous has many practical reasons and like Muslim people say “my word is worth a contract” so I don’t think my morality comes from a place of faith but a place of love. I’m probably going to hell anyway I stopped going to church out of too many theological issues, the reason I studied theology, but indeed a lot of my choices still has the Sunday school teachings and discussions… You can take the girl out of the church but no the church out of the girl…:)

  44. Anon says:

    I think women would be better served by bring given a realistic portrayal – motherhood is rewarding but difficult, and *will* negatively impact every other part of your life.

    Take out the word “negatively” and this is true. Yes, it will impact your entire life, but not “negatively” across the board.

    What kind of rich, fulfilling life would she be having if she hadn’t had kids? She would have watched a lot more TV and spent a lot more time surfing the web. She would have achieved nothing of significance, so she can just shut the hell up.

  45. W says:

    Another Daily Mail article on beiing unfulfilled in your Marrriage:
    “Not bad enough to leave, but not good enough to fulfil you… are YOU trapped in a half-happy marriage?”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2012411/Not-bad-leave-good-fulfil–YOU-trapped-half-happy-marriage.html

  46. Lavazza says:

    According to hinduism spiritual and personal development comes from fulfilling one’s duties according to one’s situation, in this case being the wife of a householder.

    http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_ashramas.asp

  47. Lavazza says:

    Here is a beautiful story. Too long to quote.

    http://ssksurya.blogspot.com/2007/12/sanyasa-vs-grihastha.html

  48. Opus says:

    @kai

    I am not a biologist, but so far as I can observe, and in every species, the female who was not programmed to reproduce was not merely an evolutionary dead-end, but also liable to a short life and quick extinction. In short they do not exist. I am not aware of any reason to suppose that homo-sapiens are any different. The problem with humans is that our rational thoughts can persuade us of all sorts of nonsense; we are very susceptible to ideas, particularily Utopian desires .

    Life has only two purposes: 1. To Survive 2. To Reproduce. Anything less is species suicide. The subject of The Daily Mail article 1. Reproduced: 2. She is alive. What then is she complaining about?.

  49. Lisa says:

    Great point about her only being 50 and not dead. I once met a woman who finished medical school at the age of 60. It’s never to late to fulfill a dream while you’re still breathe.

  50. Yale Press says:

    Female incompetence at its finest: http://goo.gl/f4pXo

  51. Dalrock says:

    @Bb

    I didn’t get the idea that Scott’s article in the daily was presented as “selfless and courageous.” She’s not proud of her feelings, the headline itself tells us it’s a “confession that fills a mother with shame.”

    Not in the subtitle, but she comes right out and states that she is doing it out of a selfless desire to help others. Even in the subtitle though she is presented sympathetically. This poor woman has been filled with shame by her feewings. She is a victim. It doesn’t tell us she should be ashamed. For example, they could have said: “A woman shamefully rejects her decision to be a mother”.

  52. pb says:

    Thanks Dalrock!

  53. Dan in Philly says:

    I wonder when the companion piece will come out: Man regrets decision to marry ungrateful, spoiled wife. The story told where he marries a woman near poverty level and allows her to fulfill her life’s dreams, only to see the sacrifices he makes every day be treated as no less than she was due, and in fact quite a bit less than she deserves. He reflects that he has no one to complain to about his life, as his helpmeet and partner has decided she was destined for better things than he, with his unflinching giving, was able to provide her with.

    He takes solice in the fact that he knows his love will endure on the children he fathered, and through them to their children. Or maybe that’s too mature an attitude for such a website as you found, Dal.

  54. Tomas de Torquemada says:

    Gorbachev, Amirantes: I remember what Don Corleone said in the “The Godfather”: “I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can afford to be careless, but not men.”

    I like how he connects children and women. They are careless, and we know they are both frivolous by nature. Letting women out on their own is like letting children out on their own.

  55. Eric says:

    Morticia:
    ‘She wishes her children didn’t exist’.
    Honestly, what else do you expect from women who’ve been taught that abortion is a God-given right?

  56. MaMu1977 says:

    I read this story over the weekend and took note that neither of her sons maintain regular contact with her; in fact, one of her sons has “chosen” to live as far away from his hometown as possible. If there’s one thing that I’ve learned in my time on this mudball, its that happy families don’t break up. I spent a decade in the military and maintained weekly contact with my relatives (some of whom were living oceans apart from me), then came home as soon as my enlistment was finished. Her (assumably) talented, educated children, who sound as if they’d be able to find work in their hometown, have chosen to get as far away from her as possible. Something tells me that she was nowhere near as selfless of a parent as she claims (even if we assume that their flight from home is finance or romance/Game-sex based, akin to computer geeks who run to Asia to become English teachers.)

  57. Anonymous Reader says:

    Very astute point that she’s basically chosen to be unhappy, no matter what, Dalrock. In his book “Man’s Search for Meaning”, Viktor Frankl makes extremely clear that even if we have no control over events affecting us, we still can control how we react to them. Frankl wrote that book in 1946, and as a Jewish survivor of the Nazi death camps, he has to be taken seriously. It’s been about 13 or so years since I read it, I should read it again.

    Too many people in the modern world want to be unhappy. Perhaps it is a result of all the victimology going back to the 1960’s, maybe it’s in the water, maybe it’s sunspots. Don’t know, can’t know, but this article is a prime example of the problem. The authoress expects other people to make her happy, she’s apparently a passive “happiness receptor” waiting for happiness to arrive.

    Too many men have been told for too long that their wife’s happiness is their responsibility, even their duty. This article is but one of many demonstrating the falseness of that idea. As such it is quite valuable for teaching and learning.

  58. Anonymous Reader says:

    Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on Frankl that seems appropriate:

    The existential vacuum – or, as he sometimes terms it, “existential frustration” – is a common phenomenon and is characterised by the subjective state of boredom, apathy, and emptiness. One feels cynical, lacks direction and questions the point of most of life’s activities. Some complain of a void and a vague discontent when the busy week is over (the “Sunday neurosis”).[15]

  59. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “maybe it’s in the water”

    I’m totally down to that, think about it. water in American is treated it would be very easy to add some sort of LSD in it and call it fluor, and given that many trad-women that shouldn’t be buying into the stupidity are doing so what else they have in common? Just air and air is harder to tamper with and the wind is not that predictable. Water supply is the key. I’m sure🙂

  60. javert says:

    To start, congrats for the blog. I started stumbling upon here quite skeptical about the worthiness of marriage to men even on its idealized form. Although I’m still proud enough of game purity and prefer LTR as the expression of love, I have started to appreciate why a man would want to marry and how they get to see the world.

    Now to clarify, I feel no sympathy for that woman. It seems to me she’s looking for an ego boost from comments: “no you’re not worthless, you’re great. Congrats for being so bold for admitting this, you’re an example to follow for every present and future wife”.

    That said, she isn’t the only one or even a corner case. Let’s put aside my skepticism towards the return of the housewife and come up with an hypothetical example: I marry the girl of my dreams, she is middle class like me and we have children. Listening to me and her maternal call, she agrees on staying home doing the household and raising the kids and she’s damn good at it. It’s full bliss at least the first years, but then, how can I shield her from the constant muttering of friends and family expecting her to “be something more than merely a mother”? You know how it could go on a friends’ reunion:

    “Oh, I just went to Paris to have this last conference about (insert your favorite useless subject here). Fashion is also so in right there that I could expend all day talking about it. Now you dear, how did your day go? Anything else besides doing the laundry? I could lend you the number of the house drudge that does the very same you do all day, including taking care of the kids”.

    I wouldn’t doubt a girl is able to dismiss random comments like these but no matter how good my game were and how good of a mother she were, I fear she would eventually break down and have some feeling akin to this woman since in my experience they are much more vulnerable to social pressure and can’t stand it indefinitely. Do you have a solution (other than the deterministic advice of looking for her in either a very religious community or the proles) for getting a housewife on your own without ultimately causing her the unhappiness of being looked down by society in the process?

  61. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “Do you have a solution (other than the deterministic advice of looking for her in either a very religious community or the proles) for getting a housewife on your own without ultimately causing her the unhappiness of being looked down by society in the process?”

    Join/create a book club
    Volunteer
    Take online classes.
    If she is artistic” paint, write, make videos. (nowdays she can write a book and publish it for free in Kindle and Create)
    Watch and comment movies.
    Take/teach crafts classes or do craft classes
    Learn a new language
    Start a home-business (Avon, Tupperware, Mary Kay…)
    Start a blog

    At the tip of my head at least…anything else from the other commenter?

  62. Jennifer says:

    “One girl even told me “I will never stay married. I want to be divorced” and this girl typically chased all of the “alphas” and was pretty attractive physically”

    Foolish ninny.

    “You also want to be on guard for the Christian women who are looking to marry without feeling real love or attraction.”

    Also very true; you’d be surprised how many girls believe this. And if she believes Dad should choose her husband, RUN. Not only does it strongly imply she’ll marry a guy without much feeling for him, but Dad has WAY too much control here..

    Tomas, can the patronizing comparison.

  63. Jennifer says:

    I wonder if this woman has a terrible kind of depression; the fact that she wasn’t content no matter what she did is odd. And to flee everything, to have a strange desire to undo everything, is a drastic mental step. Either she’s totally immature, or she has some kind of depressed mentality and thinks running away will sate it.

  64. Anonymous says:

    Thank you, Sexual Revolution…

    Scientists find incurable, drug-resistant strain of Gonorrhea:
    http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-first-superbug-strain-gonorrhea-070014377.html

    Just like they used to warn us about in the service, only real.

  65. Kai says:

    “[D: I agree. No one should be pushed into marriage or becoming a parent. But those who decide to need to suck it up and see it through. She wanted to run with the bulls…]”
    I absolutely agree that once you’ve ended up with kids, you now need to stick with it regardless of your thoughts.
    But I do see value in admitting regret so that others may make better-educated decisions.

  66. Kai says:

    “I think women would be better served by bring given a realistic portrayal – motherhood is rewarding but difficult, and *will* negatively impact every other part of your life.
    Take out the word “negatively” and this is true. Yes, it will impact your entire life, but not “negatively” across the board.”

    No, I really do think the ‘negatively’ is deserved, even if not in quite everything. Couples have less time for each other as parents. Parenthood means accepting a lower job stream, or giving up on your career entirely. Having children means less disposable income for any other possible interest. I don’t mean to say that it isn’t worth it – that’s a question for each individual to decide. For most people, the benefits of having children easily outweigh the negatives. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t negatives, and better for those on the fence to be aware of the realities and make an informed decision to commit to parenthood.

  67. Kai says:

    “Opus says:
    @kai
    I am not a biologist, but so far as I can observe, and in every species, the female who was not programmed to reproduce was not merely an evolutionary dead-end, but also liable to a short life and quick extinction. In short they do not exist. I am not aware of any reason to suppose that homo-sapiens are any different. The problem with humans is that our rational thoughts can persuade us of all sorts of nonsense; we are very susceptible to ideas, particularily Utopian desires. ”

    That is true on a species level, but not on an individual level. It is true that if human females as a mass were not interested in reproduction, the species would die. That obviously is not the case. But in every generation there are still some mutants – and some women are still born with less of the nurturing tendencies, and aren’t interested in procreating. Those women die out without passing on their mutant genes, and the system continues to work on a species level.
    There are always outliers. I don’t understand how people can think that all will fit into the lines of most.

  68. Kai says:

    “Stephenie Rowling says:
    Water supply is the key. I’m sure.”

    My city just voted to stop adding fluoride. I’ll let you if there are any mass changes.😀

  69. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “My city just voted to stop adding fluoride. I’ll let you if there are any mass changes. :D”

    Heh let me know if women start to come to their senses again, please this could save Anglosphere!😀

  70. Amirantes says:

    @ javert: a keen observation. I’m not sure there is an individualised solution. One of the emergent themes of this blog (at least I think so) is that favourable social pressures and solid imprinted values in your prospective wife are essential to a successful marriage.

    If your local feminine environs does not favour SAHMs or otherwise does not have a support network for wives who are in it for the long haul, you are very probably facing an uphill battle.

  71. Doug1 says:

    Stephanie Rowling–

    (friendly) kiss.

  72. Stephenie Rowling says:

    I love friendly kisses…but might I ask what I did to win this one. (so I keep doing it :D)

  73. Lavazza says:

    Dan in Philly: About ten years ago there was a piece in “The Onion” where an old man is interviewed about his life and, without having being mistreated by them in any way, regrets the time and effort he has put into other people’s wellbeing.

  74. uncleFred says:

    @Kai:
    “No, I really do think the ‘negatively’ is deserved, even if not in quite everything. ”

    Choices have consequences. I decide to buy a very extensive home at the limit of my ability to afford it. It soaks up all my disposable income, so my life revolves around my home. Rather than night clubbing, traveling, driving the latest car, etc. I spend time tending to my home and living in it. Has it impacted my life “negatively”? No. I chose to spend my resources and seek rewards in a specific way.

    Having children is a choice. You will have fewer resources for some things, but will get rewards that are available only from your family. You will face challenges, that if you meet them well, will cause you to be a stronger more resilient person.

    Kai – your comment seems to reflect a view that all life choices should be measured against a utopian standard based on limitless resources and effortless reward. You have less time for because your choice to have children means that some part of your time is allocated to them. You “accept a lower stream job” because your children make that necessary. No. You chose to prioritize having children OVER having a higher stream job or devoting time to the hobby.

    This is not a negative, it is the consequence of the fact that most of us do not have limitless resources and cannot have our cake and eat it too. This is not “negative”; it’s reality and life. Adults face the fact that when they make one choice, other choices are off the table.

  75. Kai says:

    “uncleFred says:
    @Kai:
    “No, I really do think the ‘negatively’ is deserved, even if not in quite everything. ”
    Choices have consequences. …..”

    You have misunderstood me. I did not mean to suggest that having children impacts your life negatively. I said that it impacts other aspects of your life negatively.
    I was going for the same point that you are making. Other possibilities are closed when you choose to become a parent. That is not bad – most people think it well worthwhile.
    Yes, you CHOOSE to be a parent over having time and money for other things. What I am saying is that you then ACCEPT the consequences of the choices you made – that you don’t have the time to pursue a high-end career, for example.
    Your theoretical house has not impacted your ‘life’ negatively, but it has negatively impacted ‘the other aspects’ which you no longer pursue.

    I am not suggesting that there is any strange utopia in which you can choose everything. My point is exactly the opposite – just as you said, that when you make a choice, you remove the chance to make some other choices.
    My concern is that a lot of women are sold this false utopia – that you can have kids and STILL do everything else you do – high-powered career, and whatnot. Which is not true. I think it is important that people choosing to become parents do so with the acceptance that they will be choosing parenthood at the expense of other areas – and then do so if that is a reasonable tradeoff for them.

  76. Dalrock says:

    @javert

    That said, she isn’t the only one or even a corner case. Let’s put aside my skepticism towards the return of the housewife and come up with an hypothetical example: I marry the girl of my dreams, she is middle class like me and we have children. Listening to me and her maternal call, she agrees on staying home doing the household and raising the kids and she’s damn good at it. It’s full bliss at least the first years, but then, how can I shield her from the constant muttering of friends and family expecting her to “be something more than merely a mother”? You know how it could go on a friends’ reunion:

    This is a very real concern, and I don’t know of a sure fire way to prevent it from sabotaging a marriage. I’ve written about the same thing and how my wife has experienced it. I call it Whispers. The thing is, no matter what choice she makes she will be getting whispers egging her on to second guess her choice. If she were a single career woman other women would be whispering about how she missed out on marriage and/or children. One advantage that I think you do have is that you are even aware of the issue. How many men can articulate this? I have always had a feeling in my gut about it, but as a young man at least wouldn’t have been able to clearly articulate it. I think your best bet is to look at how any prospective wife handles this kind of thing already. Also, how does she select her friends? Does she insulate herself from toxic influences, or does she follow the queen bee? Her expectations and commitment regarding marriage are also extremely important here. If she has a solid enough commitment these things won’t be as likely to cause an outright failure. She might bend to the whispers and become unhappy for a time, but won’t break (cheat or walk out).

    The only other thing I would add is that the issues we talk about here are components of the same risk you already knew about regarding marriage. You already know X% of marriages end in divorce (pick your stat, I don’t know which one to trust…) and that women initiate divorce 2-1 (or greater) as often as men. Learning about the inner workings of the common causes can at first seem like the risk is higher than you already knew. But this is already baked in to the risk you already knew was there. Hopefully by better understanding the risks you are in a better position to mitigate them.

  77. Opus says:

    @kai

    It may all be true that there are outliers, and as I indicated rational animal that man is, we are capable of convincing our rational minds of almost anything. As I say, however I have never come across a woman who regretted motherhood and that particularily includes those who – as Shakespeare would have said – protested too much pre-motherhood, about never wanting children. I am not the only person amongst my acquaintances to have noticed this and my instinct, as with the woman in The Mail, is to suspect that there is something else going on.

    The Mail is the default newspaper for women and it plays to all their desires, and fears, much as Sex and The City does. The articles are doubtless all concocted in-house – where for example did the writer, this ill-educated Northern woman materialise from to enable the Mail to write this on her behalf? It is far too well – and blandly – written to be genuine.

  78. TarHeelDude says:

    She drank the Kool Aid being distributed by the mainstream media that there is shame in being a wife and a mother. Look at all she gave up to bring kids into the world. Her poor children. Imagine how crushed they would be to know their mother regrets even having them. Selfish B*&%H.

  79. Jennifer says:

    “The thing is, no matter what choice she makes she will be getting whispers egging her on to second guess her choice. If she were a single career woman other women would be whispering about how she missed out on marriage and/or children. One advantage that I think you do have is that you are even aware of the issue. How many men can articulate this? I have always had a feeling in my gut about it, but as a young man at least wouldn’t have been able to clearly articulate it”

    You’re a very perspective guy, Dalrock.

  80. MNL says:

    Here’s the funny thing: I suspect there are many husbands, fathers, and other men who could potentially write something very, very similar–albeit with a different gender focus:

    Oh poor me! I’m trapped in male adulthood! I could’ve had a much better, more fulfilling life had I chosen a different path. This wife, this job, these kids–is this the sum total of my existence? Perhaps it was a mistake that I took this job, got married, and had kids as soon as I did–or even took a job, got married or settled down at all. Oh whoa is me and my silent shame!”

    …Except that most men don’t. They man-up into adulthood. …And the ones that do lament their role or postpone the transition into adulthood? They’re not given a forum; rather they become the subject of scorn and pathological analysis a la Kay Hymowitz and Where Have All the Good Men Gone:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704409004576146321725889448.html

  81. TarHeelDude says:

    Sorry for the double post but I just have to say that as a man that has been through two extremely painful divorces I find this blog to be so refreshing. It confirms in my mind that I did a lot of things right and was the victim of radical feminism. Even though I went through divorce twice and was cynical for a great while, I still chose to re-marry. I truly believe in the institution. I did make some mistakes along the way and was not the best husband I could have been but I fell victim to the whispers you speak of. My first wife’s mother was a clinical psychologist that left her husband after having 4 children with him. (Founding member of the she-woman man haters club) This happened after he married her when she was pregnant with another man’s child back in the day when it was actually a shame to be an unwed mother in the Western Hemisphere, when fathers actually were deemed necessary and important. She was greatly instrumental in the demise of my first marriage. Two and a half years into my marriage with #1 she left me to go “find” herself. In marriage #2 I was left holding the bag with all the bills while she basically kidnapped our two children and moved them to Indiana at the urging of her parents just so they could be close to their Grandchildren. She was a stay at home mother and her parents basically talked her into destroying the marriage so she could get away from the mean old man that provided for her and protected her. Now she is remarried to a weakling that she’s not happy with because he refuses to “assert” himself. I moved to Indiana, found a great woman and got busy living my life. I got custody of my son three years ago because she couldn’t handle him. I guess the boy just needed his daddy. He is thriving living with me and his stepmother and it won’t be long now before I get my 11 year old daughter. The earth is starting to rumble and she has confided in me she is afraid of her mother. Both kids have contempt for her. It is so bad I almost feel sorry for my ex. but she brought it all on herself thinking the grass was greener. I appreciate this blog. Thanks for all the insightful posts agreeing and disagreeing with Mr. Dalrock. I have learned a great deal since I have been reading.

    [D: Thanks TarHeelDude, and welcome to the blog.]

  82. Lily says:

    I think this woman is a moaning minnie, but MNL I have heard this kind of thing from lots of men.
    When I first came here I was surprised about what men say other men are like is not what I’ve experienced. My only conclusion is that men open up to women in their life more about emotional matters than male friends (?) and/or it’s connected to getting into a woman’s pants (along the lines of that old line, my wife doesn’t understand me).

    [D: The key distinction as MNL and I both mentioned is that whiny men aren’t given a forum which would legitimize their bitching. The Mail doesn’t have a separate mens section whispering to men to divorce their wives, and where men bitch about how unfair it is that they have to keep their promises, live with their own choices, etc.]

  83. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Also very true; you’d be surprised how many girls believe this. And if she believes Dad should choose her husband, RUN. Not only does it strongly imply she’ll marry a guy without much feeling for him, but Dad has WAY too much control here..

    What the heck Jennifer? You do know that most typical orthodox Christian girls would prefer an average-looking man? Seems to me like going way too much on game and PUA dogma here. Physical attraction is important sure but not all that there is you know.

  84. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Also, how does she select her friends? Does she insulate herself from toxic influences, or does she follow the queen bee

    Insulate herself and reject. Hardest path but one of the best. That’s what I will do in case any of my future friends start whispering about me being a “regressive, extremist nutcase”.

  85. Eric says:

    Most of this thread can be condensed into a few observations:
    1. One-third to one-half of all US pregnancies end in abortion clinics.
    2. The US has the highest percentage of single mothers in the devolped world.
    3. Women are responsible for 90% of the US’ 60+% divorce rate.
    4. Match.com & other criminal enterprises market divorce exclusively to women.
    5. Abortion, daycare, child-support enforcement, spouse-cheating faciliatators, and divorce attorneys are multi-billion dollar a year industries.
    Need anything else be said?

  86. Lily says:

    @alcestiseshtemoa I don’t know much about how orthodox Christian women are differentfrom other women, but generally physical attraction is perhaps more important for men than some may like to think, especially these days when arguably money is less for a man’s SMV (comparatively) than times past. And saw this today.
    http://www.economist.com/node/18925759?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/facingthetruth

  87. “4. Match.com & other criminal enterprises market divorce exclusively to women.”

    By encouraging divorce and the resultant singlehood, Match.com is merely expanding its potential market share. Welcome to capitalism.

    Frankly, I love freshly divorced women. I am a single late 40-something white collar professional with a motorcycle, dog, and no kids.

  88. Anonymous Reader says:

    slwerner, it appears that she learned something from Lorena Bobbit’s attack upon her husband; because Lorena threw her husband’s penis out of the car window, it could be found and re-attached. So the woman in this case is even more cruel and vindictive than Lorena was. Since she’s in SoCal, I’m certain that NOW and other women’s groups will line up to defend her both in the media and in court (if she actually is charged with anything).

    Anyone here believe this woman will face any serious jail time? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

  89. Lily says:

    Where is this southern California woman from? She looks like perhaps Filipina? I remember reading about how doing that had happened a few times in the Philippines.

  90. Passer_By says:

    That poor woman in werner’s article. Imagine the pain she must have been going through to find herself doing such a thing.

  91. Anonymous Reader says:

    That poor woman in werner’s article. Imagine the pain she must have been going through to find herself doing such a thing.

    Indeed. She’s probably trapped in some way by the patriarchy, and this is clearly her cry for help.

  92. Kai says:

    “Opus says:
    @kai
    It may all be true that there are outliers, and as I indicated rational animal that man is, we are capable of convincing our rational minds of almost anything. As I say, however I have never come across a woman who regretted motherhood and that particularily includes those who – as Shakespeare would have said – protested too much pre-motherhood, about never wanting children. I am not the only person amongst my acquaintances to have noticed this and my instinct, as with the woman in The Mail, is to suspect that there is something else going on.
    The Mail is the default newspaper for women and it plays to all their desires, and fears, much as Sex and The City does. The articles are doubtless all concocted in-house – where for example did the writer, this ill-educated Northern woman materialise from to enable the Mail to write this on her behalf? It is far too well – and blandly – written to be genuine.”

    I don’t talk to a lot of mothers, but I’ve worked with a lot kids whose mothers shouldn’t have had kids. I don’t know if they would say they regret them, but personal fulfillment is insufficient reason to have kids if you can’t also be decent at it.
    I have had people tell me that they had kids because they were expected to, and that while they love their kids, they’d have been just fine without them as well.

    I do agree that there can be other factors at work giving people silly ideas after the fact, but I think the code of silence is also an issue – it’s completely socially unacceptable to regret having children. You can say you enjoyed your life before, but you are a bad mother if you admit that your life would have been equally enjoyable (let alone more) had you not become a parent, no matter how much you might now love your kids.
    Same goes here for men. I think honesty is worthwhile.
    I have had people tell me that they had kids because they were expected to, and that while they love their kids, they’d have been just fine without them as well.

  93. Jennifer says:

    Oh God, slwerner. And we thought Lorena Bobbitt was evil..

  94. imnobody says:

    Kai has a point. It is true that this article reeks of standard feminist whining. But even a feminist can tell you that the sky is blue. Even in a see of falseness, you sometimes find a grain of truth.

    There is a HUGE taboo regarding fatherhood and motherhood. It may be the last taboo in Western civilization. You cannot say: “I love my children A LOT but, if I went back and started again, I think it would have been a better idea not to have kids”.

    This is strictly verbotten. You can regret your choice of career, work, sexual partner, spouse, sexual orientation. You can regret being born male/female and having had your parents. You can regret everything…but having kids. Regretting having kids makes you a monster (disclaimer: I am childless). Having them and using them as a pawns against their father is OK. But regretting having them…. Oh my God, what do you think I am?

    Yes, yes… Then here comes the usual explanations: that kids create in you a love that is bigger than any other love so you cannot second guess this decision. You are programmed by natural selection to have kids so you cannot even think about the possibility of not having them.

    This is fine and dandy and I don’t doubt that this is true in most cases. But in 100% of cases? I cry fool.

    Biological laws are not like the law of gravity. They have always exceptions. Women love men and men love women because of evolutionary reasons. But they are gays and lesbians. What evolutionary purpose have same-gender relationships? And what about people who are asexuals? And what about monks and nuns? (when they are celibate)

    But there are no exceptions when it comes to kids. 100% of times, people don’t regret having then. They can kill them, drug them or not taking care of them (as we see in the news), but they can’t regret having them. They can leave them alone with maids or in front of a TV, they can divorce and, willingly, not seeing them in years, but they can never regret having them.

    I remember an anonymous survey where a share of parents regretted having had kids. It may be that anonimity works against taboo. I had a friend of mine ALMOST telling me that he regretted having a kid when he was completely drunk and I was sober. He was pretty close (I know he loves her daughter but he hates not having a single life).

    This is not to say that people who have kids are not responsible of them. Of course, they are and of course, they have the duty of love them and take care of them, without whining. But the fact that the truth about fatherhood/motherhood is concealed is not good. 98% of times having kids is worth it. But I bet that at least 2% of times this was a bad idea.

  95. Arual says:

    The problem with no name: Also known as a refusal to take responsibility for one’s feelings, actions and beliefs, thus “forcing” them to feel like a victim with no power over their own life.

    If a woman really doesn’t want to have a child, that’s her decision, but she needs to act accordingly (ie, not get pregnant, give the baby to someone who DOES want him/her, etc.) instead of having the baby and then blaming him/her for “ruining” her life. Sometimes I think some women have children just so they can blame something other than themselves for their lack of motivation and perceived inability to accomplish anything meaningful.

    And sure, I’m sure in the day-to-day droll, most parents at some point think, “Man, I think I regret this.” That doesn’t have to mean kids or an all-or-nothing proposition where you either love them all the time or wish you’d never had them. If that were the case, we would all be hermits.

  96. imnobody says:

    And sure, I’m sure in the day-to-day droll, most parents at some point think, “Man, I think I regret this.”

    I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. But my comment referred to a situation different than this one: there must be people who really regret having kids (not only at some point but in general) but they cannot say it because it is such a great taboo. These people must exist, if only they are the 2%.

    This is not an excuse for whining and whining and, of course, once one has kids, he has the responsibility of loving them, taking care for them and not blaming them for one’s mistakes, no doubt about that.

    But society gives you an image that 100% of parents consider that having kids has been the best decision of their lives. This is false. If it were true, we will not see all the abuses kids are subjected (in a minority of cases).

    As a result of this lie, many people who shouldn’t have kids end up having them, which is a recipe for disaster (not only for the parent, but especially for the kid).

  97. Kai says:

    “imnobody says:
    As a result of this lie, many people who shouldn’t have kids end up having them, which is a recipe for disaster (not only for the parent, but especially for the kid).”

    EXACTLY.
    If you do have kids, you need to buck up and raise them, and do your best. But I think it is good to see some admitting that it isn’t for everyone, and that some people would have been better off without, NOT to absolve those people of responsibility, but as guidance for young people still considering. The constant line of “Everyone is happier as a parent! Life is meaningless without kids! Even if you don’t really like them now, you’ll be thrilled when you have your own!” is not true for everyone, and gives a false impression of the realities for people to make decisions from.

    Similar to marriage – once you’re married, it’s up to you to make it work. But I don’t think it’s a bad thing to admit to things you should have considered beforehand that could be useful for others coming along after.

  98. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    @alcestiseshtemoa I don’t know much about how orthodox Christian women are differentfrom other women, but generally physical attraction is perhaps more important for men than some may like to think, especially these days when arguably money is less for a man’s SMV (comparatively) than times past. And saw this today.
    http://www.economist.com/node/18925759?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/facingthetruth

    Nah I agree. I was just responding to one of the commenters which started going all “But traditional conservative Christian girls don’t care about looks!” when in reality most prefer an average-looking man over an ugly man so it does matter somewhat (looks are just not everything though).

  99. freemansfarm says:

    She had not only a job, but the possibility of a career (I assume a teaching assistant can become a teacher), but she chose to marry, have kids, and be a SAHM instead. Now that she has lived that life for fifty years, the grass on the other side of the fence, looked at with a half century of regret and nostalgia, looks greener.

    On the other hand, folks like Oz Conservative make hay, over and over and over again, about little news and feature stories regarding aging feminist women who have never had kids, and now it’s too late to have them, and regret it. And, from that, he draws some pretty sweeping conclusions about “fulfillment” in life and how the feminists have sold women a bill of goods and so on and so forth. Besides the obvious fallacy implicit in argument by anecdote, Mr. OC won’t even countenance the idea that there are women on the other side of the fence, mothers and grandmothers, long past the age when starting a career makes sense, who also feel a lack of fulfillment and regret the choices that they made. Anecdotes like this one give the lie to his one sided analysis.

    Also to be considered, it is a lot more socially acceptable, even today, to say that one regrets not having had kids than having had them. Regreting not having them is regretting a bad choice that you made, it doesn’t imply, never mind mean, that someone else, someone who you are “supposed” to love and cherish, is deficient in any way. But admitting to regret about actually having children, at the very least, implies that there is something “wrong” with your children, that you feel you would be better off without them, that it would have been better for you if they had never been born. The first kind of regret is kind of abstract, the second kind is a rejection of your own flesh and blood. The first kind is analogous to regretting a career choice, eg, I wish I had become a professor instead of a lawyer, or vice versa. The second kind sounds like wishing your children were dead! Unless your child ended up as a serial killer, or the like, people are likely to freak out if you admit it.

    Naturally, then, anecdotes about regretting having children are harder to find than those about regretting not having them. But that doesn’t mean that both forms of regret are not equally common or valid.

    Mind you, I agree with Mr. OC that the feminists, by and large, have pushed career over motherhood on young women. And that many women do regret not having had kids. On the other hand, the old school, equality feminists were not wrong in thinking that pushing a cookie-cutter, one size fits all destiny on all women (ie wife and mother) was wrong as well. Plenty of women, back in the day, DID feel unfulfilled as wives and mothers. They did chafe under the societal (and to some extent, legal) practices that denied them life choices.

    Of course, nowadays, women have no one to blame but themselves for their choices. Much as men do. But it is part of the human condition to always see the grass as greener on the other side of the fence, to yearn for the road not taken, so to speak, which only looks better and better in hindsight, as its potential negatives fade with the years and the postive aspects of the road that was taken are lost sight of or taken for granted in the course of mundane, humdrum daily existence.

    I certainly don’t think women is any kind of a hero for expressing her regret, but she did use a pseudonym to avoid hurting her husband’s and her children’s feelings. And she didn’t exactly say that she was “courageous” either. She regrets the choices she made in life and wrote an article about it. That doesn’t make her a martyr or a hero, but it doesn’t make her public enemy number one, either. Moreover, as my reference to Mr. OC shows, some defenders of marriage and motherhood and such are postively gleeful when women who made the opposite choice express regret long after the fact. And are quick to deny women agency, blaming their choices on feminism. But when make the opposite expression of regret, as we see here, she is told that she made her own choices, she has nothing to complain about, and should just shut up.

    My response is more consistent, I don’t deny women who made either choice agency. I can symnpathize with people who feel regret about their life choices, but unless they were forced on them (and in Western society neither men nor women have these choices forced on them anymore), that sympathy is limited. Life is a series of choices, every time you go through one door you tend to close off another. And the choices one makes in early adulthood are perhaps the most important ones, and are often not approached with as much maturity as one would like. I find this woman to be at least honest, though, and while not “courageous” she is at least willing to express an idea (ie that not all mothers are so thrilled with their choice to become mothers) that outrages most members of society.

  100. Pingback: Linkage is Good for You: Vacations Are Also Good for You Edition

  101. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    On the other hand, the old school, equality feminists were not wrong in thinking that pushing a cookie-cutter, one size fits all destiny on all women (ie wife and mother) was wrong as well.

    Don’t retort with the fallacy that feminists care about “old school equality”. It doesn’t exist. No society is completely libertarian nor morally neutral. There will always be standards and by large today liberal morality is uber-alles and therefore liberal goods will be chosen. OZConservative is correct and you are incorrect. If you want your vision of “total choice for all” to be realized then support separation and creation of parallel societies where one society is traditional conservative, far-right and the other is liberal, libertarian. In case you haven’t notice this mother with her “I regret having children and my past choices” doesn’t outrage most members of today’s society. Today’s society is running amok with messages of childlessness and anti-motherhood due to feminism and environmentalism. If anything many people are cheering and supportive of this article due to the extensive influence of liberalism.

  102. freemansfarm says:

    “No society is completely libertarian nor morally neutral.”

    Of course not. But, IMHO, “official” and semi official opinion should be neutral. It should endorse neither embracing marriage nor eschewing marriage for men and women. Same with having children. Of course, short of authoritiarianism, there will always be voices urging one choice or the other from the private sector.

    “There will always be standards and by large today liberal morality is uber-alles and therefore liberal goods will be chosen. OZConservative is correct and you are incorrect. If you want your vision of ‘total choice for all’ to be realized then support separation and creation of parallel societies where one society is traditional conservative, far-right and the other is liberal, libertarian.”

    Not sure why separatism is required. No one is prevented, under today’s “liberal” society, from choosing to live a conservative lifestyle. But, with what you propose, I have a feeling that under the “traditional conservative” parallel society people will be trapped. I have no problem whatsoever with people holding themselves separate from what they see as mainstream, liberal values. Mormons, Orthodox Jews, Mennonites, etc. are free to live their lives according to their traditional values. I do object to them forcing folks, even folks born into their families, from doing so. And that I think would be the result of a formally “parallel” society.

    Mr. OC constantly condemns liberals for their obsession with what he calls “autonomy.” What this really means is that he doesn’t like freedom. Freedom, autonomy, liberty, call it what you will, but it is anathema to a “far right traditional conservative” society. Basically, Mr. OC’s message is that he knows best, and that while he is free to not only recommend, but, if he had his way, to dictate that his choices should apply not only to his own life, but to everyone else’s as well, everyone else has too much “autonomy” because they prefer their own choices to his. That’s the paradox of Mr. OC and of most, if not all, trad cons. They are quick to cry “tyranny” at the supposed imposition of liberal values, but their own model of society is inherently based on a lack of liberty. You can’t both condemn autonomy and then turn around and ask “Where is my choice, how come I have to conform to societal norms?” One either supports liberty, freedom and autonomy or one doesn’t. And if one doesn’t, then one’s claims about tyranny ring false.

    “In case you haven’t notice this mother with her “I regret having children and my past choices” doesn’t outrage most members of today’s society. Today’s society is running amok with messages of childlessness and anti-motherhood due to feminism and environmentalism. If anything many people are cheering and supportive of this article due to the extensive influence of liberalism.”

    It seems to me that as many, if not more, are condemning it than cheering it. Many folks may promote childlessness, but a lot fewer applaud people who have chosen to have kids and then say they don’t want them. And even those who are cheering her are, it seems to me, cheering her more for admitting honestly a pov that is very much against the mainstream view, rather than cheering her for the pov itself.

    And,once again, I agree that coercion and official persuasion should not be used to push either choice. But “messages” of real people, who, in the aggregate, make up society, are another matter.

    My “liberal” view is that no one choice is right for everyone. Some folks are happier as parents, others are not. No one should be forced into either role, and the government and its offshoots should stay out of the business of endorsing either choice. Private citizens are free to offer their views, “messages,” and opinions to their hearts’ content. Maximum liberty for all, including trad cons, without the need to set up unworkable “parallel” societies and without coercing anyone. Let people decide for themselves what kind of life they want to lead.

    And, contra Mr. OC, it is neither surprizing nor grounds for attacking “autonomy,” that, whatever choice people make, there will be some who regret those choices later in life.

  103. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “I do object to them forcing folks, even folks born into their families, from doing so. And that I think would be the result of a formally “parallel” society.”

    Because feminist liberal mothers and fathers are teaching their kids that religions are a valid choice and that getting married young and a virgin is also a good idea for many other people. Pardon my skepticism. But Liberals spent a good deal of their time, indoctrinating their kids to be as “open minded” as they are, not about being open to choices they don’t agree with.

    Just look at all the articles about raising their kids without gender roles or about how many women that married virgins regret it or making fun of the Duggars and their 19 kids. I’m pretty sure if 19 and counting was about how many men a woman was having sex with, they will be cheering her choice, but it looks like a woman’s is only smart about her vagina when she is sticking dicks into it, not if she chooses to push babies out of it.
    So the whole we don’t want you isolated because you are going to “indoctrinate” your kids only works for conservatives liberals are very happy to oppress their own children as long as they end up “open minded”, YMMV.

    [D: As I said to an anti-natalist commenting on this blog: “You teach your kids what you believe is right, and I’ll do the same for mine.” 🙂 ]

  104. freemansfarm says:

    “Because feminist liberal mothers and fathers are teaching their kids that religions are a valid choice and that getting married young and a virgin is also a good idea for many other people. Pardon my skepticism. But Liberals spent a good deal of their time, indoctrinating their kids to be as “open minded” as they are, not about being open to choices they don’t agree with. Just look at all the articles about raising their kids without gender roles or about how many women that married virgins regret it…”

    My point was that, in a “liberal” society, parents should be free to “indoctrinate” their children into whatever beliefs they want. And that other private persons (but not the government) should be free to express their views as well. Our host says…

    “As I said to an anti-natalist commenting on this blog: ‘You teach your kids what you believe is right, and I’ll do the same for mine.'”

    And that’s fine. I would only add that parents are not the only source of information for children, nor should they be. While I don’t think the government and government schools should be teaching beliefs on this subject to children, I also think that other individuals should be free to speak their minds, even if what they say is not in accord with a parent’s beliefs. And that, under no circumstances, should the fact that a child is born into a particular group mean that that child, once he or she reaches adulthood, is to be forced to adopt the beliefs of that group, whether they are liberal or conservative. That’s what a liberal society is all about. As opposed to the speculated “parallel” separate traditional society, in which, I fear, that choice will be taken away.

    “So the whole we don’t want you isolated because you are going to “indoctrinate” your kids only works for conservatives liberals are very happy to oppress their own children as long as they end up “open minded”, YMMV”

    I said nothing about parents indoctrinating their kids. What I said was:

    “But, with what you propose, I have a feeling that under the “traditional conservative” parallel society people will be trapped. I have no problem whatsoever with people holding themselves separate from what they see as mainstream, liberal values. Mormons, Orthodox Jews, Mennonites, etc. are free to live their lives according to their traditional values. I do object to them forcing folks, even folks born into their families, from doing so. And that I think would be the result of a formally “parallel” society.I do object to them forcing folks, even folks born into their families, from doing so. ”

    Indoctrinating and forcing are not the same thing. I believe in a free flow of information and opinion. Of course, what parents’ teach is highly influential, but it’s not the same thing as coercion, once the child reaches maturity. Plenty of children with liberal parents become conservatives as adults, and vice versa.

    I accredit all adults with agency, with the ability to sort through what their parents and what others say to make their own decisions about their lives. The whole point of the “parallel” conservative society, it seems to me, is to prevent those choices. To only allow one point of view, and to force children born into that society into living the same kind of lives as their parents.

    Moreover, the statement of mine that began this dialogue, namely:

    “On the other hand, the old school, equality feminists were not wrong in thinking that pushing a cookie-cutter, one size fits all destiny on all women (ie wife and mother) was wrong as well.”

    has not, as far as I can tell, been seriously challenged. The old-school, equality feminists (as opposed to the gynocentric, radical, “difference” or whatever you want to call them feminists) WERE correct in saying that not all women should be forced to be wives or mothers, and that all life oppurtunities should be available, on a gender neutral basis. There is a big difference between saying that women should have the choice to remain husband and child free and saying that she must do so. That’s the whole point of “choice,” or, as OC would say, “autonomy.” It is wrong to force women to be wives and mothers, and it is equally wrong to force them (a la Simone de Beauvoir) not to be wives and mothers. And it is wrong for the official organs of the State to attempt to influence that choice. The choice should be an individual one, with a free market in ideas and opinions open to all points of view, as the only influence.

  105. udolipixie says:

    Society is creating people who don’t take responsibility for their actions. It’s not all feminists. We live in a superficial, materialistic, and narcissistic society.

    It’s now acceptable for people to be irresponsible and complain.

    In my experiences men try to minimize/excuse while women try to rationalize. However both don’t take responsibility for their actions by shifting the blame.

    There are tons of cases where men don’t accept responsibility that are used as empowerment, inspiration, and overcoming adversity. It’s a societal thing and seems like childish whiny people are modern society’s heroes.
    ————————————————————————————————————————-
    “Very often the men who have made real sacrifices aren’t even the ones to tell their own stories”
    I find it to be people who have made real sacrifices don’t announce them readily. I get stores of true sacrifice by mothers & fathers from their children and grandchildren.
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    “In stark contrast, women are continuously given public forums to complain about being the victim of their own choices. ”
    Contrast? Men have tons of public forums and groups to complain about being victims of their own choices while presenting themselves as victims. On the internet you will find tons of forums where both genders play the victim for their own choices.
    ————————————————————————————————————————–
    “This poor woman was trapped in motherhood. Those damnable patriarchal bastards! They did it again! ”

    I didn’t get that from the letter seeing as how she never tried to shift responsibility for her actions. She didn’t even mention any patriarchal influence if she was going for that angle a good time would have been when she stated she always envisioned being a mother/wife. She could have said that’s what she was taught, that’s what she saw growing up, that’s what the media said if she was trying to blame patriarchal bastards. Instead she said she made this choice because she wasn’t good in school and couldn’t see her having an ambitious career….no damnable patriarchal bastards there.

    I got she was disappointed by her life & believed it would have been better if she was never a mother/wife. That she set herself up to only have 1 type of life- mother/wife- since she wasn’t good in school and didn’t think she could have an ambitious career. Now it turns out she’s realizing limiting yourself to only one future is probably not a good idea. Especially when that decision was made on the basis that you have no other options aka not good in school/no ambitious career options.

    I understood how you got “this poor woman was trapped in motherhood” since that’s the way she felt. I don’t get patriarchal bastards. How did you get that? There are tons of letters of women who chose marriage/kids that clearly blame patriarchy that get “you go girl”…sickening and letters that imply patriarchy oh it was in the media, oh it was all I saw growing up…yeah if others decisions influence you that much your problem isn’t patriarchy.

    This letter however doesn’t have that to what I can see and if you got that impression I am wondering exactly how bias are you or if you’ve got so far in that you’re now using feminist bs tactics.
    ———————————————————————————————————————-
    “He preyed on her total lack of talent, ambition, and imagination, forcing her to live a comfortable life!”
    Nowhere do I see any preying done or implied she stated she met him, he was fun & attentive, and they married in 2 years soon having the life she had always envisioned herself aka “A husband, a home, a family. All reasons to be happy. And yet I wasn’t.” After all she had always envisioned being a mother/wife and now she had it so she had all reasons to be happy.

    Her parting words seemed to be a warning that women that there are few places they can go to speak about their regrets in choosing motherhood ..something you showed clear since her disappointment in life blaming herself for only envisioning one type of life was seen as some whine against patriachal bastards & her implying her husband preyed on her forcing her to life a comfortable life.

    It’s human nature most people who don’t want to reproduce are seen as abnormal so those who have reproduced and regret it and not just in small brush off ways would be silenced and in for awkwardness. It’s a social and societal taboo to seriously regret having your children. After all it’ll lead to others thinking did our mommy & daddy regret having us? Pretty sure most don’t like that thought so…
    ———————————————————————————————————————–
    Her regret is quite common. People often regret having children. However in most cases from my experience those people are usually the types to envision one life. I’ve talked with plenty of men who had always wanted to be a father/husband and when they got marriage they regretted having children and regretted getting married.

    It’s odd how in most cases the men like the letter-woman had all reasons to be happy after all they got what they want- a good wife, good home, a family. Unlike the letter-woman most of these men didn’t make the choice because they felt they had no other options since men have to have money and a good career to raise a kid. If anything some men envision this life because they thought I’m going to get good grades, so I can have a good career so I can support my family because that’s what a man does. No that’s what a man who wants to be a father/husband does. Men aren’t fathers/husbands. Women aren’t mothers/wives. Those are decisions people choose for themselves and it seems like when you let it become a gender expectation it’s likely to be a sh*tstorm of regret.

    Though some I got the whole trapped in fatherhood vibe as they were blaming society for expecting men to have good careers and raise children. Guess they didn’t think you don’t have to live up to society’s expectations like other men who made the choice to get married/have kids out of their own want.

    It seems more of a regretting her choosing one life because she thought she didn’t have other options since now she sees this life she thought was her only future doesn’t make her happy rather than partriacharl bastard thing & being trapped in motherhood.

    Especially since she lays the blame on herself, talks about her disappointment in her life, how she wasn’t happy getting what she wanted, and how she regrets motherhood.
    Regrettting motherhood doesn’t equal her saying she was trapped in motherhood. Seeing as how she probably feels trapped being a mother I can see how you got trapped in motherhood despite her not blaming or implying blame onto others for her decision..much less the patriarchy.

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