Running with the bulls

I remember a story a friend of our family told me when I was maybe 11 or 12 years old.  He was a young adult at the time, and was (I assume he still is) one of those people who seemed like he could do anything he wanted.  He was tall, athletic, funny, and had a natural way with people.   He had traveled around Latin America and Spain and had lived in both places for short periods of time.  The story I remember was about the running of the bulls in Spain*.  He said that young men would decide they were going to run with the bulls to demonstrate their courage, but once the bull was loose some would try to climb the barricades to join the spectators.  When they did this they were pushed back by the men on the other side (I think he said the police), who would tell them:

You wanted to run with the bulls.  So run with the bulls.

The important part of the story is this wasn’t done with malice.  The men pushing them back had no animosity for the frightened young men they were pushing back into harms way.  They were helping these young men complete what they set out to accomplish.  There is also a frame of mind here which men have (or should have) about finishing what you start, and living up to your boasts.

I think this story will resonate with most men reading this blog, because it captures the way men tend to see the world.  I’m also guessing that to many women the actions of the men pushing back will seem like pure cruelty.

I’m sharing this story because I’ve thought of it fairly frequently recently while reading in the manosphere.  I think women could better understand men’s reactions to a large number of the issues discussed here by understanding this perspective.  I think this colors men’s reactions to the complaint of withdrawn chivalry for example, or even the Lara Logan situation.

The attitude this story represents is part of what I think defines being a man.  Since feminism has taught us to not see men as different than women, most men have probably internalized this as what it means to be an adult.  However, while men are being taught that it is essential to finish what they started and accept the consequences of their own choices (and boasts), women are often taught to be frivolous so as to never be unhappy, and to reject adulthood.  One of the more frustrating parts of feminism for men is finding out that most women never really intended for men to take them seriously on it, at least on the hard parts.  Often men find this out only after it is too late.

I’m sharing this story to help men and women both understand each other a little better.  Women can benefit from understanding that men think this way, and men can benefit from understanding that very often women don’t, so we shouldn’t assume they do.

*I can’t vouch for the authenticity of the story.  Either way the basic lesson is true whether the parable itself is.

Image by Bernard bill5

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69 Responses to Running with the bulls

  1. Deborah says:

    Love this story and the lesson it teaches. Now we just need to teach women to think more like men in this regard …

  2. dannyfrom504 says:

    first off: the lara logan issue is just savagery. it disturbes me to the very core and tell’s me what an enemy we face with radical islam.

    second……running with the bulls. i too chaseed moments such as these. but in my adult life i learned to look over the situation…..and judge appropriately. i lived in spain for 3 years, EFF running with the bulls. lol. i have no need to prove my manliness. i’m a man, and i exist, therefore……what more proof is needed.

    good post.

    stay up.

  3. detinennui32 says:

    “One of the more frustrating parts of feminism for men is finding out that most women never really intended for men to take them seriously on it, at least on the hard parts. Often men find this out only after it is too late.”

    Very important.

    This often manifests when woman profess to want full equality. For example, when circumstances dictate the wife works and the man stays home and takes care of house and kids, neither she nor society like it. She and society both heap shaming language on the man, who, for his part, was simply doing what the family needed at the time. .He can’t understand why his wife is stressed out all the time, is losing respect for him by the day, and why society blames him. Isn’t this what you wanted? Isn’t this what you expected us to do? Isn’t this what we needed to do at the time?

    So a lot of women talk a good game and SAY they want to run with the bulls. But when push comes to shove, they don’t was to actually do the running.

  4. paige says:

    Men and women both want to be winners of life but both define “winning” differently.

    For a man to “win” is to prove his competence. Men are sensitive to this motivation in other men and tend to push other men along to prove themselves even when it is a great threat or personal sacrifice.

    For a woman to “win” is to be happy. If she is unhappy then she has “lost”. She judges her competence by her ability to find happiness and keep it, not by her ability to be “strong” in the face of suffering.

    This helps explain how each sex sees divorce so differently. For a woman a divorce could be considered a “win” if they went from being unhappy to being happy.

    For a man a divorce is almost always considered a “lose” because of its implications of his competence. Either he failed to choose a good wife or he failed to keep one…either way is a sense of failure.

    When parents are asked what they want for their children the answers are often quite different depending on if it is a mother or father answering. A father might answer “I want my child to be teh best he can be.” The mother might say “I don’t care what he does as long as he is happy.”

    Now NAWALT and NAMALT…exceptions always exist..but this is the general pattern I have noticed.

    [D: Excellent insight Paige.]

  5. paige says:

    I think it is a good observation that even when women *think* they want to be more like men if often turns out they aren’t very happy doing so. I think they make the faulty assumption that men’s main motivation is doing what makes them happy instead of what proves their competence. So when a man is working long hard hours at a job and doesn’t complain the woman thinks “He must love working long hard hours at a job, so I bet I would to!” But when they do it they realize that while they may be proving their competence it isn’t providing the satisfaction they thought it would…because duh…they aren’t men. Deep down they don’t want to be “strong”…they want to be happy and happiness is found in fulfilling the feminine role of being nurturing, submissive, and helpful.

  6. Opus says:

    Excellent observation, Dalrock, and how often have I observed women just giving up, and promptly starting something new, shedding their previous failed interest with the ease a snake slews-off its skin. For a man to give up feels almost shameful – which is probably why men take such a long time to overcome broken marriages and romances, as well as other disappointments. Without wishing to appear to insult women, they do not appear to understand this.

  7. Lovekraft says:

    Lara Logan, if she wanted to be held to account as an adult, should have done more to weigh the atmosphere of those mobs and acted accordingly.

    But, alas, the standard mantra of ‘it wasn’t my fault’ was implied.

  8. J says:

    I’m also guessing that to many women the actions of the men pushing back will seem like pure cruelty.

    Nah, not to me. You make people resilient by pushing them to push themselves. I recall an incident when my oldest was a toddler and fell down in the park. I resisted the urge to run and pick him up, saying, “You’re fine. You can stand up. Come over here, and let me check you out.” He stopped crying before he even got to me. And today, he’s a pretty tough kid.

    I wouldn’t urge him to run with the bulls (or equate this with the Laura Logan situation, for that matter) but I see your point.

  9. Gorbachev says:

    Women who whine about having to behave like men need to have things pointed out.

    if they get the benefits of being an adult human and the privileges of being male, they *must* lose the “special benefits” of being female.

    When women whine and complain – I’ve made it a special rule to shame, humiliate and socially punish them for it. What? don’t be pathetic. Wise up. Stop being a loser. Carry your own bags.

    Amazingly, later, if I make some point – make me dinner, life is hard, … then I relent.

    In two serious cases, hard-core feminists backed right down and both admitted it was better to relent on the absolute equality thing. They were the hardest-core feminists I ever dated.

    And my Jewish Feminist ex-wife recently told people how nice it would be to have a big, strong man to take repsonsibility for things.

    natch.

  10. Dalrock says:

    @J

    I wouldn’t urge him to run with the bulls (or equate this with the Laura Logan situation, for that matter) but I see your point.

    Just to clarify, I’m not suggesting that Lara Logan deserved what happened or that it was a beneficial experience to “toughen her up”. She absolutely didn’t deserve what happened to her. I was referring to the gut impact many men had to her first being presented as a street smart tough as nails global reporter (as per the photo), until she was all of a sudden a poor helpless woman and why didn’t the men protect her.

  11. namae nanka says:

    “Now we just need to teach women to think more like men in this regard …”

    women’s feelings hurt, men must change
    men’s feelings hurt, men’s feelings must be changed.

  12. Anonymous says:

    But never saying anything you don’t mean is “beta” loser behavior… reliability is for suckers who don’t excite women. “Alphas” boast how they’re going to “kill” someone in front of people and end up avoid him when no one else is around to see (at least in the suburbs where it’s how bold and “edgy” one is that counts and promises are for dorks who don’t like getting something for nothing).

  13. Rum says:

    Pushing the guys back into the Bull-Run is really very kind. Wise men know that a young guy would think much less of himself -probably for the rest of his life – for wimping out at that time and place. Or, at the least, until he completed the next running. So, one might as well do it right the first time.

  14. Amirantes says:

    Dalrock, you’re a treasure. A brilliant post.

  15. Stephenie Rowling says:

    @Anonymous
    I just felt like I was watching one of those documentaries about sexual behavior of gorillas…Ewww. I know I know this is the way most women act and think but still is like animals with writing.
    I feel dirty.
    Didn’t we created art, architecture, science and music and wonderful works of literature?
    There is more to humanity than just the silverback mating call, making all females follow him, till they are spent. At least I like to think that…I’m going to take a shower now.

  16. imnobody says:

    “There is more to humanity than just the silverback mating call”

    There was until feminism. The sixties dismantled all the dams built to civilize feral human sexual behavior, which have been painfully constructed for millenia. These dams were the ones who allowed people to reach their highest potential.

    (You only have to compare comedies before sexual revolution – Lubitsch, Billy Wilder- with comedies after the sexual revolution – Sex and the City, Knocked up, Miss Congeniality).

    Feminism and sexual revolution was about turning back to the feral basic instincts of the female (which you see in this video)

    About the video, I was a nice guy for years. They I decided to be a PUA to get some pussy (and I did: lots of it). If you are a nice guy, I recommend you you stay the way you are and tell these women that want excitement to go pound sand. Pussy is overrated.

  17. tspoon says:

    Hmmm not sure ‘we’ created all that stuff, SR. There’s a rule for use every time it gets confusing, called ‘the window rule’. It postulates that when you look out the window, everything you see – was made by men.

  18. Höllenhund says:

    “Didn’t we created art, architecture, science and music and wonderful works of literature?”

    I think both Game and the experience of the last four decades prove that men, on average, are biologically better-suited for both civilized life and monogamy than women are. It seems social and technological progress is way too fast for women.

  19. dragnet says:

    “if they get the benefits of being an adult human and the privileges of being male, they *must* lose the “special benefits” of being female.”

    Yes, the paradigm of modern feminism: right without responsibilities.

  20. Doomed Harlot says:

    But the Lara Logan example belies the very point made in the post. Here is a woman who repeatedly embraced danger for roughly a decade as a war correspondent. Shortly before her assault by an Egyptian mob, she was held interrogated overnight by Eqyptian authorities, who held her blindfolded and upright overnight, during which time she repeatedly vomited. But she went right back in to do her job. Despite having been subsequently assaulted by an Egyptian mob, Ms. Logan has never suggested that her network was wrong to send her there or that women should not serve as war correspondents.

    Ms. Logan chose to run with the bulls so to speak (although that’s an imperfect analogy as I think you acknowledge) and she suffered the consequences. It’s YOUR team, Dalrock, not the feminists, who argue that she should have been pulled out of the running or not permitted to run in the first place.

    I fail to understand the man-o-sphere’s fury at and contempt for Ms. Logan. Is the argument that she does not warrant our sympathy because she voluntarily placed herself in danger? Surely, we all feel compassion and respect for Daniel Pearl (beheaded), Bob Woodruff (severely injured by a roadside bomb explosion), and Anderson Cooper (also brutalized, though not sexually assaulted, by an Egyptian mob), even though one could make a similar argument that they each placed themselves in danger. Ms. Logan deserves the same consideration.

    I also call B.S. on the idea that women are inherently unwilling to face consequences when they choose to pursue difficult endeavors. The first names that come to mind are Ang San Suu Kyi, who has undergone repeated and lengthy imprisonments by the Burmese government yet has refused to abandon her country or her stance as a dissident, and Veronica Guerin, the Irish journalist who kept reporting on the Irish mob until her assassination, despite having been shot, attacked, and threatened on multiple occasions. There have been plenty of women throughout history who have placed themselves in harm’s way in service of a larger cause or principle. It is false to suggest some gender gap whereby women have some inherent need for coddling and men don’t.

    (P.S. I abandoned commenting here for a period because I was involved in an all-consuming jury trial that lasted three weeks.)

  21. J says:

    @Stephanie

    I just felt like I was watching one of those documentaries about sexual behavior of gorillas…Ewww. I’m going to take a shower now.

    Wow, really? The macaque like antics of uncivilized usually just amuse me. I think the PUA and Cougar in the video are both of gross, but I don’t necessarily feel dirtied by them. They just don’t affect me all that much.

  22. Morticia says:

    Doomed Harlot- I think it is fair to say that these women are outliers. The general population of women can hardly kill a cock roach let alone face real danger.

    I greatly appreciate the existence of outliers. They are fascinating people, but the feminist mistake is in insisting that the exception makes the rule.

  23. J says:

    @D

    Just to clarify, I’m not suggesting that Lara Logan deserved what happened or that it was a beneficial experience to “toughen her up”. She absolutely didn’t deserve what happened to her. I was referring to the gut impact many men had to her first being presented as a street smart tough as nails global reporter (as per the photo), until she was all of a sudden a poor helpless woman and why didn’t the men protect her.

    I did understand your view, although did also notice that some of manosphere seemed view Lara Logan as a cleavage showing, adulterous whore who deserved what she got.😉

    One thing that’s important to note is that Lara Logan did NOT try to court public sympathy and DID try to preserve her own privacy as best she could. I don’t think has has ever described in detail just what did happen to her and really it’s no one’s business unless there’s legal action. Most of the drama attendant to the incident came from the press, the feminists and the MRAs, not from Lara Logan.

    I agree with DH’s post. Logan was just trying to do a job and seems to have accepted the inherentg dangers. I would lump her case in with all those DH cited WITH THE EXCEPTION of Danny Pearl. Pearl, at some decided not to be a journalist, but a diplomat. Additionally, somewhere in his crazy head, he came up with the idea that as a Jew he was the perfect guy tio go try and reason with Muslim terrorists. Somehow, he thought the completely predictable would not happen to him. It’s natural selection at work. For all you HBDers, it was the failure of the mechanism that keeps Ashkenazi IQ so high. The rest of us just wonder what the hell this man was thinking.

  24. J says:

    @DH

    Hi! I hope all is well. I don’t know if you saw my post a while back but I opened a blog (elderlyprimapara.wordpress.com) to discuss older mom issues in case you wanted to talk to someone who’d been through TTC, etc. over 40. (The births of my sons bracket the year I turned 40.)

    If not, no offense taken, but I’m thrilled that you are TTC, hope all is going well and would like to offer support and info. I can take the blog private if you’d like.

  25. Doomed Harlot says:

    Morticia,
    So how many of us have to actually prove ourselves before we stop being considered “outliers” ?
    You may be using hyperbole (I sure hope so), but I don’t ANY women who would have difficulty coping with a cockroach. (I personally don’t kill them or any other bugs. I carry them outside in a wad of paper towels and set them free in the woods!)

    I am fascinated by women who have such a dim view of their own sex. Do you view yourself in this light??? If indeed you are hardly able to cope with a cockroach, why don’t you try to toughen up and overcome your weakness? Why not make a choice to be braver? Why buy into beliefs of your own weakness when you have the power to change yourself? I honestly don’t understand sexist women. How can you think such things about YOURSELF?

  26. J says:

    @Morticia

    So what if you had to face danger to save your kid?

  27. Doomed Harlot says:

    Oops. Typo. I should have said, “I don’t KNOW any woman who would have difficulty coping with a cockroach.”

  28. Morticia says:

    Well, I have killed my share of cockroaches but that wasn’t my point. I have noticed a pattern of women being content to be cowardly.

  29. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “Hmmm not sure ‘we’ created all that stuff, SR. There’s a rule for use every time it gets confusing, called ‘the window rule’. It postulates that when you look out the window, everything you see – was made by men.”

    Sorry I meant humanity in general terms. We had been out of the jungle for millenia now, we should be able to mate for higher reasons than DRAMA! And I meant both men that do it for punani and women that do it for dick.

    “Wow, really? The macaque like antics of uncivilized usually just amuse me. I think the PUA and Cougar in the video are both of gross, but I don’t necessarily feel dirtied by them. They just don’t affect me all that much.”

    Well is my species isn’t? The idea that this clothed people that use technology are justifying their gorilla calls for sex is just disturbing to me. I know, my husband always tell me that I take everything too seriously…I need to learn to separate myself from others. Hard for me to do so, but vital if I want to keep my food in my stomach for any length of time.

  30. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “I am fascinated by women who have such a dim view of their own sex. Do you view yourself in this light??? If indeed you are hardly able to cope with a cockroach, why don’t you try to toughen up and overcome your weakness? Why not make a choice to be braver? Why buy into beliefs of your own weakness when you have the power to change yourself? I honestly don’t understand sexist women. How can you think such things about YOURSELF?”

    I don’t think this is sexist but realistic. You are assuming that all women are going to refuse a man giving their seats in the lifesavers from them when the Titanic starts to sink. They will not.
    The case of Lara Logan shows that most women only want equality till it bites them in the ass. No article has been written saying the same things under any war correspondent being neglected if is male. We are just accepting the truth, you are idealizing women in this sense, but if you look around when a woman is attacked if there is any men in the vicinity they get accused of being anti-women if they don’t try and help, regardless of the circumstances and this are the same feminists that claim equality. Admitting the faults of women is not sexist is having your eyes open to what really happens in real life, not feminist textbooks.

  31. J says:

    @tspoon

    Hmmm not sure ‘we’ created all that stuff,

    Me too. I’m amused when Joe Sixpack thinks he’s Einstein or Beethoven because he has a penis, when Joe Ghetto thinks he’s Kofi Annan or when Sally Fatwelfaremom thinks she’s Beyonce beause they share a complexion or when Johnny WN Idiot thinks he’s superior because of the achievements of other whites. The ability to use a keyboard and run one’s mouth on the internet doesn’t automatically transfer to you the achievements of great people who look a bit like you. If all a guy does is bitch all day on the net (and I don’t mean you personally BTW), he is no more accomplished than the least accomplished woman. Truly great people, male or female, are a minority.

  32. Morticia says:

    Cowardice in women has its evolutionary purpose. A woman can only have so many children in her life time while a man could have 100’s (with multiple women). Back when we were tribal and cared about our tribes survival into future generations women in their child-bearing years were a bit less expendable and unnecessary risk-taking would have been frowned upon. I realize that has all changed, but the way we have evolved hasn’t changed over a few decades.

  33. J says:

    Well is my species isn’t?

    Meh…I don’t feel any particular connection with a-holes.

  34. Doomed Harlot says:

    Stephanie,
    How does the case of Lara Logan show that most women want equality until it bites them in the ass? I haven’t followed the case that closely. What has Ms. Logan said or done that indicates she no longer wants equality?

  35. J says:

    @Morticia

    Still, being willing and able to protect your kids is adaptive from an evolutionary standpoint. You’d expect those genes to be passed on.

  36. Doomed Harlot says:

    Morticia, I would agree that women are less likely to engage in unnecessary risk-taking, but being more cautious is not the same thing as cowardice. As J points out, women are often the first line of defense to save their children. Bravery in women therefore serves an evolutionary purpose too — and plenty of women are undeniably brave.

    I personally wouldn’t participate in the running of the bulls because I don’t see the need to take a risk that serves no purpose. But I know I would dash into traffic to save a toddler, and I hope that I would give up my seat on the Titanic to somebody old or infirm.

    Being fearful has nothing to do with being cowardly. Cowardice is a choice to indulge one’s fears instead of overcoming them. The narrative you believe in, i.e. that women are just inherently fearful and there is nothing can be done about it, promotes cowardice in women.

  37. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “How does the case of Lara Logan show that most women want equality until it bites them in the ass? I haven’t followed the case that closely. What has Ms. Logan said or done that indicates she no longer wants equality?”

    Actually is not so much Logan herself.. Do a google search on what the sisters are saying about it, then get back at me.

  38. Doomed Harlot says:

    Why don’t you be specific, Stephenie? I read what the feminist blogs had to say about Lara Logan and I don’t recall even a hint of a suggestion that she shouldn’t have been there or that the network was wrong to send her there.

    The sisters, as you call them, mostly criticized those who blamed Ms. Logan for her own assault — blame that I must again note was never leveled at folks like Daniel Pearl or Bob Woodruff, who also put themselves in harm’s way and suffered the consequences.

  39. Morticia says:

    I would not be inclined to give up my seat on the titanic unless my children were grown. If they were I would give up my seat for a younger person…giving preference to those with children.
    Older people should be willing to sacrifice for the younger generations. Having young people sacrifice their seat for old people makes no sense.

    Most fears have some basis in reality so overcoming them ins’t necessary. Being afraid of a cockroach might be silly, but being afraid of bugs in general has its purpose given that some bugs are poisonous.

  40. J says:

    I personally wouldn’t participate in the running of the bulls because I don’t see the need to take a risk that serves no purpose.

    Exactly.

    But I know I would dash into traffic to save a toddler,

    BTDT, at least once with each kid. Have two living children to show for it. It’s evolutionarily sound behavior. I once also ran into what sounded like a rockslide to find and retrieve my son. I don’t feel like I’m a natural born coward or that it’s unfeminine to be brave. It’s downright motherly IMHO.

  41. J says:

    I also had a cancer scare during my pregnancy with my older boy. I was offered the option of a therapeutic abotion and immediate surgery/chemo vs. let’s wait and see. I choose “wait and see” with the hope that the mass would stay operable until my son could be delivered prematurely but safely–a win-win solution. Luckily, the mass turned out to be benign, but I didn’t know that when I made the decision. I made the courageous decison to put someone’s life before mine, just like a man–who happened to have a uterus and vagina.

    And I kill my own cockroaches!!

    I am woman hear me roar!! LOL

  42. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “Meh…I don’t feel any particular connection with a-holes.”

    They still are homo sapiens like me, so I can’t just pretend I’m from a different sphere at least not now.

    “I would not be inclined to give up my seat on the titanic unless my children were grown.”

    I happen to agree with this, from the practical POV it should be “young people first” a person that has all the life ahead regardless of the gender should be the priority. Leaving your seat to an old lady looks charming, but she might as well die some days later while a young man could be wasting 40 more years of productive work in society.

    “Why don’t you be specific, Stephenie?”
    Some snippets:
    NBC’s Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell:
    “Women are always more at risk than men in conflict zones, but so are the women we cover. They, and children, are the most vulnerable in society. But often the most courageous, as exemplified by Lara.”

    “In light of the report’s findings, Reporters Without Borders suggests establishing programs to protect female journalists.”

    “Logan Attack Highlights Women’s Plight”;

    Are this about equality or about special arrangements to protect women specially?

  43. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “I made the courageous decison to put someone’s life before mine, just like a man–who happened to have a uterus and vagina.”

    Do you know that feminists consider this anti-feministt? The body integrity of the female is more important than sacrifice, that is why they fought so hard for abortion and they look down in any woman that risk her life for a baby. They don’t consider a strength but a patriarchy imposition.

  44. Morticia says:

    I agree that preserving the life of a child or the life of an unborn child should be one area where a woman is not a coward. I think we all have an obligation to sacrifice for future generations, even if it means sacrificing our life.

  45. J says:

    “I made the courageous decison to put someone’s life before mine, just like a man–who happened to have a uterus and vagina.”

    Do you know that feminists consider this anti-feministt?

    Considering that some regular manosphere commenters consider me equivalent to Jaclyn Friedman, no I really don’t.

    Frankly, the more internet I read, the more confused I am about just who is a feminist. Back in my day (says Granny J), feminism was about choice. I knew NO activist women who were pro-abortion in the sense that they thought having a kid was solely an imposition by the patriarchy and didn’t at least respect the choices of other women. Most felt that a woman should have the choice to abort, but a few, especially the religious ones, believed in stuff like “equal pay for equal work” while opposing abortion. There was a broad spectrum of opinion about reproductive and career options.

    Even now, I wouldn’t assume that everyone who calls herself a feminist would call my decision foolish (though my husband did at the time.) Even the Jezebels are a mixed bag on this, saying things like, “Well, I’d never debate another woman’s right to abortion, but I’d never have one.” OTOH, there are men in the ‘sphere who call themselves anti-feminist who have personally argued with me that any woman who has an “accident” with them should be forced to abort.

  46. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Even the Jezebels are a mixed bag on this, saying things like, “Well, I’d never debate another woman’s right to abortion, but I’d never have one.”

    You surely haven’t read enough about it. Most of the Jezebels were horrified that in Twilight Bella was willing to die to have her baby and consider it a bad thing to teach girls. Also everytime a pro-lifer says that having an abortion was their worst mistake they brag about how that is not truth and for them all their several abortions was not problematic at all, also remember the twitter about the woman that was happy to have a miscarriage? All women were cheering up on her. Then when the article about the clinic with the guy that was practicing abortions in women over 7 months pregnant, in fact he was just inducing labor and killing the babies after they were out, they were very sympathetic to the “poor” women that could had gotten an infection going to a unsanitary place and bitching about conservatives fault for not providing abortion in a safer way and not about the live babies that were murdered in a regular basis there. So again woman > baby for feminists as a general rule.

  47. PT Barnum says:

    Stephanie,
    How does the case of Lara Logan show that most women want equality until it bites them in the ass? I haven’t followed the case that closely. What has Ms. Logan said or done that indicates she no longer wants equality?

    Name all the male reporters who have been KILLED in Libya.

    Most people can’t. I can’t. One adulteress lunatic slut gets felt up and the whole chattering classes can’t shut up about it.

    That’s different..

  48. Doomed Harlot says:

    Stephenie, If you accept the premise that a woman in Lara Logan’s position would be more at risk than a man, I guess I don’t see why it’s anti-equalitarian to have increased protection for women. If the sexes face unequal dangers, than unequal protections make sense. Personally, however, I am an agnostic on the issue of whether a woman in Lara Logan’s position is more at risk than a man, though surely a woman is more likely to suffer an attack of a sexual nature. In any case, the only people I see complaining that Logan was there in the first place are ANTI-feminists, not feminists. Feminists understand that Logan had the right to choose risk.

  49. Doomed Harlot says:

    The pregnancy example is an interesting one. The realities and risks of pregnancy and childbirth are a horror show, even with modern medical advances. Yet women across the board, ordinary women, repeatedly go for it. If that’s the exception to the rule that women are cowardly, it’s a pretty big exception.

  50. J says:

    The realities and risks of pregnancy and childbirth are a horror show, even with modern medical advances.

    Aw shcuks…what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. It just prepares you for motherhood. LOL

  51. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot

    But the Lara Logan example belies the very point made in the post. Here is a woman who repeatedly embraced danger for roughly a decade as a war correspondent. Shortly before her assault by an Egyptian mob, she was held interrogated overnight by Eqyptian authorities, who held her blindfolded and upright overnight, during which time she repeatedly vomited. But she went right back in to do her job. Despite having been subsequently assaulted by an Egyptian mob, Ms. Logan has never suggested that her network was wrong to send her there or that women should not serve as war correspondents.

    Ms. Logan chose to run with the bulls so to speak (although that’s an imperfect analogy as I think you acknowledge) and she suffered the consequences. It’s YOUR team, Dalrock, not the feminists, who argue that she should have been pulled out of the running or not permitted to run in the first place.

    You have entirely misunderstood the point of the post. My point was that men think differently, and this colors how they view different situations. Of course you think Lara Logan is just like one of the guys; that is your job as a feminist. What I’m saying is to most men she doesn’t come off the way you think she should. No amount of feminist slogans or recounted feats of girlpower will change this fact.

  52. Doomed Harlot says:

    Ooookay. So you say tomato, I say tomahto.
    By the way, I don’t really see Lara Logan as “one of the guys.” She’s not a guy. (Yeah, I know that’s just a turn of phrase, but being brave or daring woman doesn’t make you one of the guys; it makes you a brave or daring woman. The guys, wonderful as they often are, aren’t the standard; the standard is the principle of courage and strong character, a principle which is gender neutral.) More to the point, I don’t see how Logan somehow embodies a view that women should be pulled out of running with the bulls. What did she say or do that somehow embodies a different, or particularly feminine way, of responding to violence?

    J, as it happens, I recently attempted to conceive for the first time. It probably won’t take (I’m old) but you never know. Of course, part of me is thinking, “What the heck am I thinking?” If it takes, this ain’t gonna pretty.

  53. PT Barnum says:

    Stephenie, If you accept the premise that a woman in Lara Logan’s position would be more at risk than a man, I guess I don’t see why it’s anti-equalitarian to have increased protection for women. If the sexes face unequal dangers, than unequal protections make sense.

    I would agree, The dangers are unequal.

    The male reporters in her position are DEAD.

    She is alive.

    Two different results. Dead is different from alive. I think we can all agree on that.

  54. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “Yet women across the board, ordinary women, repeatedly go for it. If that’s the exception to the rule that women are cowardly, it’s a pretty big exception.”

    Had you seen feminists telling that they are scared of pregnancy and don’t want to go through it? That is a meme in their websites, so ordinary non feminists women are brave, ordinary feminists are afraid of their own bodies.

  55. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot

    More to the point, I don’t see how Logan somehow embodies a view that women should be pulled out of running with the bulls.

    Neither do I.

  56. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “In any case, the only people I see complaining that Logan was there in the first place are ANTI-feminists, not feminists. Feminists understand that Logan had the right to choose risk.”

    That was not what we were debating, but that feminists reacted in the same way to Logan’s case as they would to a man. They don’t they are demanding special protection. Given that male correspondents end up dead shouldn’t they try for better protection for war correspondents in general? and not make a plea for women being more at risks, thus needing special protection? That is hardly equality talk is it?

  57. J says:

    Stephanie, I haven’t seen any of the miscarriage twitter, but I’d have skipped over anything about Twilight at any rate. I’m not surprised that posts that express regret about abortions are greeeted with, “Well I had one and it was the right thing to do.” There are women who genuinely feel that way. I would not be one of them, but I know women who feel that way IRL. I think a lot of those discussions on Jezebel generally contain lengthy comparisons of feelings and experiences and end with “Oh well, different things affect people different ways. Everyone’s experience is valid. I believe you experienced what you say you did; I didn’t. Let’s all do whatever it was we were going to do.” There’s a lot of drama followed by sisterly hugs.

    I have seen women who are happy to be mothers post on Jezebel as well as women with scruples over abortion, pre-marital sex, etc. Their objections to the general discussion usual takes the form of, “Well, I believe it’s your right or your choice to X, Y or Z, but personally I would never have an abortion, am a virgin or whatever.” I’ve never seen anyone harrassed for being a mother or virgin or disapproving of abortion personally. Some of of them say some ridiculous things or hold attitudes that I worry will only lead to their own unhappiness, they often tolerate a wide variety views as long as their views aren’t directly challenged.

    I can understand though that the other stuff might stick in your mind as I have seen that as well. Nor am I surprised that many of them think the mom’s rights outweigh the baby’s, OTOH, many fairl;y religious people see the mom’s right to life as paramount. It’s not necassarily a feminist issue. The doctor who offered me the therapeutic abortion was a churchgoing (though somewhat cafeteria) Catholic. He felt morally and medically comfortable betting that he could save both my life and my son’s from what looked like ovarian cancer, but he also felt morally obligated to offer the abortion to me because he felt that I had the right to make an informed decision and to have some options. He would have done the abortion had I wanted it because it might have saved my life. It’s hard issue, and I thank God it turned out to be a false alarm.

    Anyway, I really didn’t want to turn the discussion to abortion rights or the Jezzies. The point was that woman often do courageous things just in the course of being women.

  58. Doomed Harlot says:

    PT Barnum, I agree with you that there is a serious question as to whether the risks faced by female reporters are actually worse than those faced by male reporters. I imagine it varies depending on the villains involved. Some might be inclined to treat a woman with kid gloves. Some might be inclined to rape a woman, but kill a man. In other situations, a woman might be raped whereas a man would not have been assaulted at all. For my part, I favor providing as much protection as possible for all reporters while allowing them to do their jobs. But if there is reason to believe that certain categories of reporters are more at risk (a premise which I acknowledge is debateable), there is nothing anti-equalitarian about increasing the protection of those who face increased risk. For example, a Jewish reporter in the Middle East might warrant an extra dose of security; it doesn’t mean, however, that he should be considered inherently less suited to being a reporter.

  59. Doomed Harlot says:

    Yeah, I was trying to avoid getting derailed into an abortion discussion too. I don’t think it is pertinent here.

    The issue with choice isn’t bravery versus courage. It is whether people should be forced against their will into a highly risky and painful physical trial. I don’t think you should be forced to complete a pregnancy any more than you should be forced to go to Egypt to serve as a war correspondent.

  60. J says:

    @DH

    J, as it happens, I recently attempted to conceive for the first time. It probably won’t take (I’m old) but you never know. Of course, part of me is thinking, “What the heck am I thinking?” If it takes, this ain’t gonna pretty.

    There are definite risks. Prime time to have a kid from a biological standpoint is really the 20’s, but you are actually in a somewhat lower risk group than the youngest of mothers. (To my surprise, my OB preferred us old ladies to the teenagers because we generally have healthier babies.) You will act intelligently during your pregnancy and will probably have a better outcome than a teen mother despite your age. I was an ultra high risk mother. I was not only older, I had endometriosis, a history of miscarriage and extensive pelvic scarring from the endo and from the corrective surgeries. Nevertheless, I have two healthy, brilliant PINA teenage sons to show for it, so it was well worth the rough ride.

    I wish you all the best with this.

  61. Stephenie Rowling says:

    “I think a lot of those discussions on Jezebel generally contain lengthy comparisons of feelings and experiences and end with “Oh well, different things affect people different ways. Everyone’s experience is valid. I believe you experienced what you say you did; I didn’t. Let’s all do whatever it was we were going to do.” There’s a lot of drama followed by sisterly hugs.”

    Actually they don’t I was friend with many commenter that were de- starred after expressing differing views from the herd, and were not happy about it. So the sisterly hugs are only for the ones that agree. Most of the commenter that disagree are hidden from the POV, because it upsets the masses.
    The twilight issue was not about bodly integrity but about pushing the pro-life agenda of conservative and expressing that any woman with half a brain would had aborted the baby, not risk their life for it and expressing disappointment in the way they handle this particular issue. I must say that Edward as husband and doctor also though abortion was the best choice so it was not like it was not part of the discussion, they still think it was idiotic anti-feminist choice.

    I just advice you to search for yourself or if you like do a differing comment so you can see how fast they turn their back on your “choice”.

  62. J says:

    Stephanie, I have commented there. I found that expressions about how my mileage varied were fine, eg. “I waited to TTC and found that endometriosis nearly prevented me.” Motherly advice, like “You should have a baby before it’s too late,” not so much. I still have some comments there in “permanent moderation.” Oh, well…

    OTOH, Jezzies weren’t really my original point, so I’ll stop here.

  63. Doomed Harlot says:

    Thank you, J!!

    Stephenie, I can’t speak to the Jezebel blog because it is not my usual hang-out. I have no way to judge their response to you. I will say that I think it is perfectly reasonable for a blog to limit its discussion to the like-minded. I’ve been asked to leave conservative blogs before, or had my comments barred. I don’t think any less of blogs that make that choice. Some blogs are for spirited discussion among those who disagree, others are only for the like-minded, some are somewhere in-between — and I think that’s okay.

  64. Herbie says:

    “If the sexes face unequal dangers, than unequal protections make sense.”
    But if the sexes are truly equal, unequal protections don’t make any sense.

    “Feminists understand that Logan had the right to choose risk.”
    Feminists don’t understand that with risk comes the responsibility to choose wisely.

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