Men have biographies, women have grandchildren.

This is PA’s maxim, which he shared over at Gucci Little Piggy.  He shared this following whorefinder’s comment:

Despite all their fronts, women have naturally low opinions of themselves. Perhaps another way to put it is that women don’t define themselves by accomplishments (the way men do) but where they are in the social strata. Of course, a man at the bottom of the social strata feels the pain too, but if that man is an expert video game player, dancer, earns a lot of money, builds coockoo clocks with his bare hands, etc., he can take solace in that.

Women, no matter how much the lesbo-feminazis try to pretend otherwise, take little from an accomplishment. A straight female CEO who is 40 and without a boyfriend…feels like a failure. A stragith male CEoO wish 40 and without a girlfriend…feels great, because he’s either banging a new girl every night or hitting up a brothel (or both).

While both are taking it to extremes (and brothels aside), I think there is good reason to question feminism’s implicit assumption that what motivates and gratifies men must therefore be what motivates and gratifies women.  At the very least, feminism’s tendency to downplay the importance of family to women can ultimately leave them very unhappy.  PA’s maxim certainly is a powerful way of cutting to the heart of the issue.

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53 Responses to Men have biographies, women have grandchildren.

  1. Herbal Essence says:

    In “The Flipside of Feminism” one of the key pieces of advice for women was that she should assume that she would want to have children, and would want to stay home with them for a number of years. Regardless of the career “grrl power” propaganda getting pushed these days.

  2. Gorbachev says:

    This says it all. And yet, the very admission will set a fire in the hearts of women that can’t be put out, a desire to assault the towers of male privilege that can’t be slaked by anything but blood.

  3. ElectricAngel says:

    Women spend have their lives unable to bear children. Evolutionarily, they are designed to become grandmothers, to further their children’s children. This is the source of baby rabies after 30, the fear not that their own children will not be born, but that they have missed their chance to be real grandmothers.

  4. Opus says:

    That is a very attractive Motto – from the point of view of a Man, but I am afraid, from observation, I just cannot find it to be true. What I believe to be true is that Women find Motherhood satisfying, in the way that increasingly Fatherhood is unlikely to be for Men. Men, it is true do not admire women primarily for their accomplishments, and they judge other men by thoeir success in life and not be the extent of their families, yet whether a Woman sees herself as a failure if aged forty or beyond she is childless or Manless, I rather doubt.

  5. ElectricAngel says:

    whether a Woman sees herself as a failure if aged forty or beyond she is childless or Manless, I rather doubt.

    Doubt not, Opus! I know a few in that category. One is “child free,” and happy about it. The rest are rueful if childless. They blew their chances for the fools gold of career and carousel.

  6. namae nanka says:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200907/the-imposter-syndrome

    “Perhaps another way to put it is that women don’t define themselves by accomplishments (the way men do) but where they are in the social strata.”

    and even most historically famous women had someone(usually a man) in their lives that they followed.(some men do the same, though I think it’s male competition in their case)
    The post-feminist modern society tries to play that part today. An exercise in cluelessness:

    http://www.girlslearndifferently.com/middleschool.php

  7. Opus says:

    We all have different experiences Electric Angel, – and perhaps I am just being taken in by superficial appearances – but given their Rationalisation Hamster, I am sure that those women who made it to middle-junor-manager or some other dizzy-height in some corporate cubicle will be able to feel good about their lives. As all women belong to an extended club, to which Men are not invited, by the name of TeamVagina, they will always fit in even as a Spinster Aunt. Unlike men, women, including the childless, are not seen as social-pariahs around children. It is men, I fear who look back and feel dissatisfied with their worldly success – but we are not so good at pulling the wool over our own eyes, I think.

  8. Lovekraft says:

    Mothers are overrated.

  9. tiredofitall says:

    It is men, I fear who look back and feel dissatisfied with their worldly success

    Yes, because clearly it’s the men who spend their early twenties working at meaningless jobs, and whoring it up, only to then decide to “settle down” after putting off marriage and children until their thirties. But then discover that they’ve waited too long.

    Yep that’s us men to a tee.

  10. Anonymous says:

    Attention modern women: No, four-foot furry “kids” (not to mention the “grandkids” they produce) don’t count (only human, not feline, ones please). Sorry. Our condolences. (And pick up some more Cat Chow and Tidy Cat clumping litter on the way home, multiple cats tend to get cranky and fight each other when either one starts to get low.)

  11. whorefinder says:

    Thanks for quoting me, Dalrock! Your site rocks.

    [D: Thanks!]

  12. Dalrock says:

    @Opus
    As all women belong to an extended club, to which Men are not invited, by the name of TeamVagina, they will always fit in even as a Spinster Aunt. Unlike men, women, including the childless, are not seen as social-pariahs around children.

    You aren’t taking into account how competitive and cruel women can be with other women. Having a man invested in them means a great deal to women, no matter what feminists claim and no matter how many times they swear they are done with men after a certain age. Those with husbands (or at least committed boyfriends) will subtly and not so subtly dig at the ones who don’t have one. If anything technology like Facebook makes this even worse. Not only is there a “relationship status” field which the spinsters will detest, but there will also be plenty of bragging by the married women about their latest anniversary, valentines, their grandkids, pictures of their latest trip with their husband, etc. The spinster aunt is of course invited to gatherings, but I wouldn’t say she usually feels like she fits in.

    For a sense of how spinster women often feel, check out this Psychology Today post. While she tries to spin it as being the same for men, I don’t think it is the same. I’ve never known a man to dread going to a wedding because he isn’t married for example. Never married or divorced and unremarried women very often dread these kinds of occasions. Men get some of the same flack, but I don’t think it hits them nearly as powerfully. I think this can likely be explained by the fact that throughout human history only 40% of men have reproduced vs 80% of women. From an evolutionary perspective if a woman doesn’t bear children something very unusual has occurred. The opposite is true for men. If they do have children something rather unusual has happened for them. Also, women without a man around historically have been much more vulnerable. From what I have seen this is still the case today. So an unmarried/no kids woman’s hindbrain is likely freaking out a bit that she failed to have children and doesn’t have a man around. No amount of shoe shopping is likely to make the hindbrain shut up about it.

    It is men, I fear who look back and feel dissatisfied with their worldly success – but we are not so good at pulling the wool over our own eyes, I think.

    I do think men find great value in being fathers (and grandfathers). I certainly value being a father greatly, and I’m sure I’ll be very tickled to become a grandfather. That is part of what I meant when I said both were taking it to extremes. Men have some additional time before their window of opportunity closes compared to women, but I also think this window closes for both sexes sooner than they expect.

  13. Badger says:

    Careerist feminism made two huge mistakes:

    1. Teaching women that they should want to do “everything men do” (which really meant everything the small cohort of alpha males do).
    2. Lying to itself and to women that having a family was just another career option, like accounting or marketing, instead of a deep intrinsic drive of most people.

  14. slumlord says:

    A woman is incomplete without a man.

  15. krakonos says:

    @Dalrock
    For a sense of how spinster women often feel, check out this Psychology Today post. While she tries to spin it as being the same for men, I don’t think it is the same. I’ve never known a man to dread going to a wedding because he isn’t married for example. Never married or divorced and unremarried women very often dread these kinds of occasions. Men get some of the same flack, but I don’t think it hits them nearly as powerfully. I think this can likely be explained by the fact that throughout human history only 40% of men have reproduced vs 80% of women. From an evolutionary perspective if a woman doesn’t bear children something very unusual has occurred. The opposite is true for men. If they do have children something rather unusual has happened for them. Also, women without a man around historically have been much more vulnerable. From what I have seen this is still the case today. So an unmarried/no kids woman’s hindbrain is likely freaking out a bit that she failed to have children and doesn’t have a man around. No amount of shoe shopping is likely to make the hindbrain shut up about it.
    Maybe there should be some mo things added to make the picture clear.
    – in prehistory 15%-40% of all deaths were violent – by other people. (Over the WWII Germany had total loss of population ~ 10%)
    – cannibalism was common all over the world
    – human specie ha eveloved significantly within last ~250k years of existence (first abstract art is considered to be not more than 50k years old). Genus Homo has been here for more than 2 mio years.
    Could you imagine existence civilization within the terms of prehistory? Recently there was an article in the Spearhead about one h-g society (http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/05/24/the-birth-of-fatherhood/). It gives a little bit different perspective.
    You can take distant prehistory to explain some human behaviour but you cannot apply it to modern civilization – it would crash immediatelly.

  16. Gendeau says:

    slumlord : “A woman is incomplete without a man.”

    Perhaps…

    “a woman without a man is like a fish without a slave that can be ear-bashed into submission”

    hmmmm…surely we can improve on that, it lacks…poetry

    “a tick without a host”

    “a parachutist without a ripcord”

    “an amateur high-wire walker without a pole (or net)?”

  17. Opus says:

    @Dalrock

    I have carefully read and indeed re-read your response to my second post and looked at the three links that you provided. I regret that I remain unpersuaded, but as I indicated, my views are based only on personal observation and not on research, and perhaps seeing that we live in different countries, that itself may explain our different views .

    Women (where I live) just do not give me the impression, when divorced or single, that they are unhappy and miserable and unfulfilled. It is men, who being single or childless, seem to be aimless and without purpose. Successful men, on reaching retirement age, seem often to wonder what the point of working hard non-stop for forty or fifty years was.

    One day about fifteen years ago I was on the train to London and overheard a conversation between an elderly man and woman; they were talking of another man (not present) in slightly disparaging terms. His fault was that he had never married – no suggestion by the way of homo-sexuality – just that his failure to marry was odd – a mark against him. In like manner, I have a love-letter from a (twenty-seven year old) ex-girlfriend which includes the following ‘oh mister gorgeous, how come you arrived at the age of thirty two without being snapped up by some woman’ – she is suspicious and cannot believe her (admitted very temporary) good luck. It is women who see single men as odd, and by-the-way seem to find married-men desirable – whereas men will always overlook why a woman is single, indeed it is their singledom which is part of their attraction.

    It is popular in the man-o-sphere to suggest that at the age of thirty-five women reach their wiley-e-coyote moment, but it is my observation that such a moment does not really exist. Women, no matter how old, fat or ugly (and if she can avoid fat so much the better) care always able to garner male interest.

    It is women, not men, who seem desparate to divorce, and do so even when well past the age when they may be considered desirable (i.e. post menopause if not earlier). Should they want a new boyfriend there seem to be no shortage of Toy-Boys – only too happy for the copious sex on offer – and that even without going to such lengths (as many do) of finding a North-African. Women have no shame.

  18. Brendan says:

    Opus —

    Women have a very easy time obtaining sex from men, that is without question. However, women have a not so easy time obtaining commitment from men from whom they want a commitment — not a boytoy type for sex.

    My impression is that a certain segment of the childless over 40 types have come to terms with their situation in life and are not terribly unhappy, yet have regrets. A larger portion of that is filled with more regret. Men don’t seem to be that way at that age when they are divorced, really.

    Having said that, I do agree that it very much does matter where you live. In my own experience the UK culture is much less marriage-and-children oriented than the US culture is, and it wouldn’t surprise me if there is a greater number of women there who are older and childless yet content (although the musings in the FeMail section of the Daily Mail would suggest otherwise). In the US, marriage is still a huge institution, especially for the educated class, so things play out differently.

  19. Opus says:

    @ Brendan

    Whether women have difficulty securing commitment from men, toy-boys or not, I rather doubt, – it is certainly not my observation – although obviously when a woman grants you sex there is always the possibility, if not probability that you will quickly tire and move on – it is for women a calculated risk – although so far as I can see it is usually the man who is given the push, and left puzzled as to how and where he went wrong. That, at least is my personal experience.

    You do however raise an interesting point, which may be somewhat off-topic, but I think worth pursuing – and I do not think I have noticed this being raised anywhere previously. The Internet has enabled people, provided they can write in English, the ability to communicate instantly. Geographical location is no bar. The sort of conversation we are having on this blog would have been fairly impossible as little as just over ten years ago, and it is easy, because of this, to overlook that contributors to comment sections come from different countries and have different cultures.

    I lived briefly in the United States (where most blogs like The Spearhead are based) and at the time, felt, that were it not for the fact that the language was the same as my native tongue, that I would have thought it the strangest place; any European country despite superficial differences was, I felt, more easily understandable by a person like myself ( being English). And what, might that difference between England and the United States be? – you may be wondering. There are many, – you indicate a greater belief in marriage – but two others instantly come to my mind. Firstly, in England people (whether atheistic or not) are just NOT religious and regard those who profess an interest religion with great suspicion. Secondly England is divided into three classes. You may be living in poverty but if you are a member of the Upper Class, that is a passport which your poverty cannot and does not remove. Similar things can be said about the middle-classes and the working classes. No matter how successful, from a worldly point of view; no matter how great your achievments; as soon as one opens ones mouth one instantly reveals everything about oneself. I may be wrong but I did not observe that to be true about The United States. So, by way of example, whereas on Roissy one is always reading of hot-women, and how to game them, that sort of attitude is incomprehensible here. In England there is no difficulty sleeping with good looking women, but as they tend to come from the working class, they won’t want you and you won’t want them. The middle classes are less attractive but seem to have pedestalisation-princess syndrome, so there is really little point wasting your time – they are just too bad tempered. The Upper Class, are few and far between – and I doubt I ever met one.

    This may explain I hope my response to Dalrock as set out in my earlier posts.

  20. slumlord says:

    Women (where I live) just do not give me the impression, when divorced or single, that they are unhappy and miserable and unfulfilled. It is men, who being single or childless, seem to be aimless and without purpose.

    One of the privileges and curses of my job (G.P.) is that get to see beyond appearances, so to speak. Loneliness affects men and women differently. As you suggest, men seem to be go “dusty” and wander aimlessly. Women, on the other hand, become bitter and hard. In my experience, loneliness is hard on men but much harder on women.

    A lot of women (and men) divorce because of the “grass is often greener” phenomenon. Most women mistake the easy availability of sex for the availability of love and imagine that after divorcing and dating a bit, they will settle down again. No woman divorces her husband to become the cat lady.

    As I said before, a woman is incomplete without a man.

  21. krakonos says:

    @Opus
    UK, isn’t it a country where young single mothers receive public housing and benefits, millions of men just disappeared (according to 2001 public census), marriage is torn, promiscuity is rampart, public debt is climbing so hiiiiiigh, industry is wrecked, and muslim immigrants have their own (shariah) courts?
    No wonder, women are so happy. They have all they wanted (in short term).
    It is amazing, how fast a civilization can be destroyed from inside.

  22. Brendan says:

    Whether women have difficulty securing commitment from men, toy-boys or not, I rather doubt, – it is certainly not my observation – although obviously when a woman grants you sex there is always the possibility, if not probability that you will quickly tire and move on – it is for women a calculated risk – although so far as I can see it is usually the man who is given the push, and left puzzled as to how and where he went wrong. That, at least is my personal experience.

    It’s probably a cultural difference. Yes, women ditch boyfriends here, too, because these men aren’t “good enough”. That’s commonplace.

    But at the same time we have a significant number of marriage-aged women here (30+) who are endlessly whining about not being able to find a “good man” (that is, a man whom they want to commit to them, not just a man for a fling/boyfriend stint). I suppose that what you’re saying is that in the UK women have no such problem and can find men whom they want to commit to them with ease, and so there isn’t any significant degree of whining about not being able to find a commitment-worthy man. That isn’t the case in the US, really. Either US women are pickier in terms of men whom they want to commit to them, or there are fewer men here who meet the “I want him to commit to me” test, or both, but the degree of whining about this issue among American women of marriage age is not insignificant.

  23. Opus says:

    @Brendan

    I really think it must be different in the United States. (Krakanos is presenting a doubtless factually accurate, though rather one-sided or juandiced view of The United Kingdom.)

    I suppose what I am really thinking, but not saying, is this: Most men think I am a good looking, (as you can see form my Avatar) interesting guy, financially solvent, with some useful qualifications, but although I have (I suppose) by most standards had more than an average amount of female interest, I have never found one who seemed interested in marriage. As I (0nce) worked for what is now the world’s largest law-firm, you might have suspected, given that we are always reading that women are Hypergamous, that women would have been throwing themselves at me, whether from the middle, let alone working-class, but that is just not the case. That most of my friends have married foreign-women (European) perhaps supports my experiences.

    Slumlord observes (from his practise as a G.P.) that women become bitter and hard; doubtless, but bitter and hard are not synonyms for loneliness. If they are, then women must be their own worst enemies, in that they do not even realise that they are unhappy. I think one should be able to recognise unhappiness, but I don’t observe it in single or divorce women – in fact the opposite. Men however in Slumlord’s memorable expression go ‘dusty’ and aimless. Is this (I don’t know where Slumlord lives) an English trait? As I indicated previously, worldly success does not really count for much over here, either for the men or for the women who might otherwise be impressed.

  24. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Opus
    I think one thing missing in your analysis is the power of the hamster. I don’t live on UK but as one of many brides from Dominican Republic that marry first world men. I have friends married to Italian, Swiss and Spain citizens. This first world women social reward system is designed on a way were the same realization that hits women on USA at 35, doesn’t reach them till 45 or even more. Technologies that make women look younger are more advanced on Europe so they can totally imagine they are 20 even if they are pushing 40, women earning their own money spent it a lot on trying to look the youngest and imagine that the time has stop till one day it doesn’t.
    I most also add that in Switzerland my friends and other second wives latinas encounter a lot of hostility from the first wives, after they were the ones that walked out of the marriage to “find themselves” or “because they felt suffocated” It seems that after seeing their husband landing a young, hot, smart pleasant woman they kind of think they weren’t that suffocated after all and that as much travel, sex and luxury they can afford now that they are free, having a home and constant company of a loved man doesn’t look so bad. Greener pastures perception can change on a woman’s mind as soon as another woman seem happy on it, IME, YMMV as usual.

  25. Doomed Harlot says:

    Oh, please. I think most people care about being accomplished and about having a satisfactory family life.

    The difference is that when women care too openly about being accomplished, we are asked why we are wasting our time on a “meaningless” job (as mentioned in a comment above), and we are told that our accomplishments matter little when, after all, death comes as the end for all of us. Men are occasionally on the receiving end of this silly narrative, but not nearly to the same degree as women. In the manosphere, a job suddenly becomes “meaningless” if a woman is doing it.

    We, as a society, can make anyone feel bad about their choices. Some say, “Oh, your job can’t love you at night and is really meaningles in the end.” Others say, “Oh, anyone can push out a child. And you are really anonymous down the generations if you don’t have an accomplishment other than wiping babies’ noses and bottoms.” The truth is that the way to a satisfactory life is to do what is in front of you to the best of your ability and with all your heart and all your might.

    In approximately 2.5 weeks, I will attempt for the first time in my 40 years to conceive a child. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t. But to the extent I have any regrets in life, it will not be whether I worked too much or too little at my job, or spent too much or too little time with my family, had a child or didn’t have a child. My only regrets will be if I don’t feel I did my very best in whatever circumstances I’ve found myself in over the years.

  26. Dalrock says:

    @Opus

    I really can’t prove one way or another how comparatively happy women are being unmarried or childless in one country vs another. I do seem to recall a bit of a stir in the UK about some recent marriage, so I tend to think the interest in the institution isn’t entirely gone at least. What I would say is to the extent that women in any country are happy and satisfied with being unmarried and childless, more power to them. Now, will they please shut up and quite bitching about their lives? Seriously. If feminism actually made women happy (on the whole) I would take a very different view of it. I would still advise men of the dangers of the post feminist world we lived in and advocate for a return to legal fairness, but at least we could know that we bought some happiness for the cost of all of the wrenching change.

    The only point I’ll add is how could we know they are happy? So often the women in the media writing about their lives change their story between breaths. I did a post on Liz Jones a while back, and she has changed her story with dizzying regularity. I read this as moments of lucidity creeping through due to hamster exhaustion. You may read her work as showing that she really is quite happy, but forgets and assumes she is miserable on a regular basis. As Brendan alluded, this is fairly regular fare for the FeMail.

  27. krakonos says:

    @Opus
    I am usually a bit vicious in my texts, get over it😉 . But you are right about prospects of Western men. I noticed that when some younger Western professional male is married it is usually to a non-western woman. But even here in Eastern Europe things are changing rapidly – in UK direction.

  28. imnobody says:

    I lived briefly in the United States (where most blogs like The Spearhead are based) and at the time, felt, that were it not for the fact that the language was the same as my native tongue, that I would have thought it the strangest place

    Yes, I am an European too and having lived in Latin America, I went to the United States to work. My expectations were that Europe and United States were more similar between them than with Latin America (after all, they are developed countries). But after living in the States, I concluded that Europe and Latin America are different but USA is light years from both of them. A very strange place with people thinking in a very strange way (from the eyes of an European).

    Having said that, I don’t know England but I think that the contentment of the British ladies when they are alone is due to:

    a) The state subsdizing their singledom, which happens in every country but especially in Britain.
    b) The hamster. Don’t underestimate the power of the hamster.

  29. Opus says:

    @Dalrock

    I’ve just read (and the comments) the piece you did on Liz Jones. Marie Claire is an absurd magazine (which is popular with childless women, of a certain age, so I understand). I used to know a Journo who wrote for Cosmo. Divorced of course – younger boyfriend. Endless rationalisation. I bumped into her once on the train and this was our converstation:

    Opus: ‘Why are you on the train today’
    Journo: ‘I’m writing for the anti-anti-vivisectionists’ (i.e. pro-cosmetics)
    Opus: ‘So you are in favour of Vivisection on helpless Hamsters’.
    Journo: ‘No, Im against the antis’.

    I think Liz Jones must be the same. Too intelligent for her own good, too well paid ditto, too much time on her hands, but basically just too selfish. In her self-centeredness she (by excluding normal human interactions and thus human problems) create worse problems for herself than she would have had she remained married. Liz Jones is a woman so she likes to complain. Women, whether married with children, or in Corporate Cubicles always complain. Men just get on with things, but unfortunately tend to take seriously female complaints (which is how we got into this mess in the beginning).

  30. Anonaconda says:

    Actually, I read this maxim about a decade ago.

    It is a great maxim, but not invented by anyone in this community.

  31. Anon says:

    In approximately 2.5 weeks, I will attempt for the first time in my 40 years to conceive a child. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t. But to the extent I have any regrets in life, it will not be whether I worked too much or too little at my job, or spent too much or too little time with my family, had a child or didn’t have a child.

    Just wait until you have that kid. Then you will regret only being in your kid’s life for 30 years instead of 50 years, maybe croaking before the kid reaches maturity, being old and tired when the kid is a teenager, having little or no chance to see grandchildren (especially if your kid waits as long as you did to reproduce), being too decrepit and useless to enjoy grandchildren if you live long enough to see them, having to juggle your retirement with paying for your kid’s college, and many other issues that arise when you have kids late in life.

    And yes, most women have meaningless jobs, so that “narrative” is not silly but well deserved and precisely on point.

  32. Sweet As says:

    Good luck with your TTC, Doomed Harlot.

  33. krakonos says:

    @Opus
    Some other good news from Al-Bion : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392045/Man-ordered-pay-100-000-children-ex-wife-tricks-clinic-using-frozen-sperm.html
    In our “shitty” Eastern European country it still is not possible. I say ‘still’ because there are clear signs of westernization and this is just question of time. It is funny to realize what fatherhoods & justice & morals mean for women and society.

  34. Lavazza says:

    Anon: I am not so sure that people who have their first child in life are average when it comes to life expectancy, health and financial situation, and most children of elderly parents want to have children earlier in life than their parents. Does somebody know where to dig up statistics? Most people I know did not have their first child until their thirties and I can only remember one case where a friend had lost a parent before becoming a parent himself (he was born in his father’s second marriage). Most friends parents had them in their twenties and had their own first child when the parents were still working.

  35. Kathy says:

    “In approximately 2.5 weeks, I will attempt for the first time in my 40 years to conceive a child. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t. But to the extent I have any regrets in life, it will not be whether I worked too much or too little at my job, or spent too much or too little time with my family, had a child or didn’t have a child. My only regrets will be if I don’t feel I did my very best in whatever circumstances I’ve found myself in over the years.”

    Whilst I do wish you the very best in your endeavours to have a child DH, I cannot agree with what you say, with regards to doing your best in whatever circumstances..

    You have had a choice.. You married at, what, twenty four?

    There is no greater joy for a woman in this life (apart from the love of her husband) than conceiving a child with the man that she loves..

    Trumps all else DH..

    I only hope that it is not too late for you.. I sincerely mean that.

  36. Brendan says:

    She had to become partner first, Kathy.

    Personally, I’m fine with women who make the decision DH has made provided they don’t whine about not being able to have kids, which it doesn’t appear she is doing.

  37. Kathy says:

    “She had to become partner first, Kathy.”

    And… sigh… that is so very very sad, Brendan..
    Priorities, eh?

  38. J says:

    Hi DH,

    Congratualtions on your decison to TTC. As you might remember from my postings way back when, I gave birth to two healthy boys when I was roughly your age. While I had a great deal of difficulty in conceiving and giving birth (I had endometriosis and loads of pelvic scarring from the disease and from corrective surgeries), my mothering experience has been absolutely wonderful. It much more closely matches Lavazza’s observations than Anon’s. If you would like to discuss conception, pregnancy and mothering over 40, I would be happy to start a blog page at elderlyprimapara@wordpress.com for that purpose.

    All the best!!

  39. Lavazza says:

    J: Well, I *do* find it weird when women have their first child at the same age as my mother had a child (me) who was at university or in the compulsory military service. But some of these women have teenage children now and they are not so old that they have troubles taking care of them. My younger sister had her first child before me (which is early for a professional), so my mother was 52 when she had her first grandchild, and had four grandchildren at the age of 57. My mother took a MA in economics while working full time as a managerial assistant when we were in our teens and had a good career from 40 to 60.

  40. Lavazza says:

    Interestingly higher education “gives” more years to men than to women (especially in emerging economies, for some reason). The apex fallacy might mean that women don’t see men who die prematurely and that that is the reason that women have a difficulty in seeing this inequality.

  41. Anon says:

    “my mothering experience has been absolutely wonderful. It much more closely matches Lavazza’s observations than Anon’s.”

    So let me get this straight. You have a kid, and…

    You don’t regret having it sooner?
    You don’t fear croaking before the kid reaches maturity?
    You don’t fear being old and tired when the kid is a teenager?
    You don’t regret having little or no chance to see grandchildren?
    You don’t regret that you’ll be too decrepit to enjoy grandchildren if you live long enough to see them?
    You don’t regret that you’ll have to juggle your retirement with paying for your kid’s college?

    To be sure, there is not much you can do about it now, the die is cast, but I’d be surprised if they’ve never occurred to you.

  42. Looking Glass says:

    College will be a lot cheaper by then. It’s in the middle of a massive bubble and is about to blow up.

    My sister was born when my mother was 42 (wasn’t intentional). It presents a lot of weird challenges, but it isn’t unheard of. You just have to be willing to take on those challenges & store up supplies for the future. But at age 40, the chance of a high risk pregnancy is really high, so I wish you the best of luck.

  43. Lavazza says:

    Anon: Nobody can be sure that their kids will have kids. It’s a better chance if you have daughters, if your kids are attractive, if they were born in a happy marriage, if they are not materialistic, and so on.

  44. J says:

    @Anon

    So let me get this straight. You have a kid, and… Two, actually.

    You don’t regret having it sooner? Very occasionally. Mostly I wish I had a few more kids.

    You don’t fear croaking before the kid reaches maturity? No, My dad died two years ago in his nineties. My mom passed last week in her late eighties. I appear to be about 15 years younger than I actually am. (Thanks, mom and dad for the long telomeres!) It’s more likely I’ll get hit by a car than die of natural causes any time soon.

    You don’t fear being old and tired when the kid is a teenager?My kids ARE teenagers. So far, so good.

    You don’t regret having little or no chance to see grandchildren? You don’t regret that you’ll be too decrepit to enjoy grandchildren if you live long enough to see them?No, I pretty much expect to see and enjoy them. My parents did. Wish I could see great-grandchildren though…

    You don’t regret that you’ll have to juggle your retirement with paying for your kid’s college? ?I expect to continue to do some work past 65 as opposed to just sitting and waitng for death for 30 years. I’ll go nuts if I don’t. We are doing well enough though to call the shots after 65 to a greater degree than many people. We also expect the kids to work, get scholarships and take some responsibility for themselves. One advantage to being older is that your kids DON’T have time to screw around. It’s clear to my boys that they won’t be living in my basement at 30. They work, study, contribute to the community, and are more mature than most of their peers. People tend to think they are older than they are. They carry themselves like young men, not kids, and have my husband’s heavy facial hair.😉

    To be sure, there is not much you can do about it now, the die is cast, but I’d be surprised if they’ve never occurred to you.?

    My having kids as late as I did really wasn’t a choice, but I can’t say that at this point in my life I wallow in regret about it. Let’s put it this way; when younger women tell me there are inspired by my being an older mom, I warn them that waiting is taking a big gamble with one’s fertility. OTOH, I would encourage any women who is still fertile and wants kids to have them. The ability to have your own bio-kids at 40 is a strong indication of having the health to raise them. Additionally, the gains of wisdom and life experience that older parents tend to have made balance out the physical losses. Our situation is still much easier than that of a large family where the youngest kids are my kids’ ages. It’s still really good. I thank God everyday for my kids. No regrets!!

  45. J says:

    Hi DH,

    I don’t know if you saw my last post to you. I did start a blog page at elderlyprimapara.wordpress.com. We can move this discussion over there if you are interested. If not, no problem. All the best with your TTC!!

  46. J says:

    @Lavassa

    My mother took a MA in economics while working full time as a managerial assistant when we were in our teens and had a good career from 40 to 60.

    I think the next social trend will be women graduating college, working a bit and then starting/resuming careers at 40 after a maternity break. It’s easier to make changes in life paths now than it was when I graduated college. Even men now tend make several career changes. (My hubs is on career change #3.) Eventually motherhood will just be one of those career changes.

    But enough of that. I really just came back to offer DH some support in what I hope is an exciting new phase in her life.

  47. Lavazza says:

    J: I think the next social trend is men refusing to foot the bill for women and therefor avoiding marriage, working less and working more in the gray economy to avoid taxes. Or, if already married with kids, working less and demanding that the wife does her part in bringing in the bacon and/or demanding more frugality.

  48. Lily says:

    Anon “Just wait until you have that kid. Then you will regret only being in your kid’s life for 30 years instead of 50 years, maybe croaking before the kid reaches maturity, being old and tired when the kid is a teenager, having little or no chance to see grandchildren (especially if your kid waits as long as you did to reproduce), being too decrepit and useless to enjoy grandchildren if you live long enough to see them, having to juggle your retirement with paying for your kid’s college, and many other issues that arise when you have kids late in life”
    and Kathy

    Interesting you mention this about Doomed Harlot but not Dalrock? Do you feel the same way about him? ‘too decrepit’ etc.
    He wasn’t much younger than her as he’s about 4 years older ‘as my wife wanted to take a few years to get her body back’
    So all you said would apply to Dalrock too, assuming he and Doomed Harlot lived to the same age so they’d have roughly the same time on earth with children and grandchildren, average lifespan for men and women aside. Perhaps you are just being polite because he is the host (which is obviously a good thing).

    [D: I almost commented on this, as I am 41 and we have a 1 year old and a 6 year old. I don’t regret our choices, but I do think it makes sense to start earlier than we did.]

  49. Lily says:

    @Doomed Harlot
    Good luck with TTC. Best not to think about it too much and just have fun I think🙂 It’s when people start taking temperatures and treating it like a laboratory experiment that things get stressful I think.
    @J
    Will check out your blog. I was surprised at the first pregnancy class thing I went to I was the youngest woman there. Our chicklets were born safely btw.

    [D: Congratulations Lily. Good to hear they were both born healthy.]

  50. Lily says:

    @dalrock
    I think it makes sense to start earlier as well, especially if you want a larger family as time just runs out. In my family, women have always had children into their 40s so I know it’s doable and I do know women who’ve started at 37 and had 3 or 4 children. But I think overall, it’s just too risky to wait till ones 30s or if one wanted a larger family.
    That said, in my personal case, I certainly have choices now that I wouldn’t have had in my 20s.

  51. J says:

    @Lily

    Congratulations on the birth of your babies!! I haven’t actually posted anything but I thought it might be nice to have a non-Manosphere space to discuss mothering issues if any one wants to. If you want to start a discussion, just go ahead and I’ll respond as soon as I can. This is a busy week for me as my mom just passed, but birth/life is a good distraction.

    [D: I’m very sorry for your loss J.]

  52. J says:

    Thanks, D.

    In the end, she lived long and relatively happy life and left a grateful family behind her. It’s sad, but it’s all good–more than most get of life. I can’t kick about it.

    Lily–I put up a post.

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